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Current issues

Abusive sockpuppets

Previous reports here, here and here, checkuser request here.

Darano (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and 68.97.11.185 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) are pretty obvious abusive sockpuppets of banned user Maplefan.

Maplefan and alternate account Runescapehater were originally blocked after the first ANI report, for POV pushing on MMORPG articles MapleStory and RuneScape. A second wave of sockpuppets, including Gavegave30, were blocked after the checkuser request. Twice, while using Gavegave30, Maplefan forgot to log in, appearing as 68.97.11.185 [1][2]. Now, Darano has has appeared, doing the same thing as Maplefan (posting about player numbers on MapleStory [3], something Maplefan's always done, and trying to insert unsourced OR-POV negative criticism into RuneScape [4][5]). He's made the same mistake as with Gavegave30 account, by forgetting to log in, so the exact same IP used by Gavegave shows up [6][7] (note "Tally Ho!" used by both). Can they be blocked, please? They're causing a lot of trouble at the two articles, and as of yesterday have moved into actual vandalism [8][9][10]. See also Talk:MapleStory#Can I ask one question?, Talk:MapleStory#Let me make a point., Talk:RuneScape#Popular Culture Icon, and Talk:RuneScape#Not enough negative, too much positive.

Cheers, CaptainVindaloo ^{t c e} 17:28, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Maplefan is a banned user? --Kaypoh 04:29, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, he is. If this is a sockpuppet, this is his third attempt at SPtry. --Jump! Slash! Dash! Ouch! Super Mario SonicBOOM! 12:46, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

From WP:BAN#Community ban: "A user is de facto banned when they are indefinitely blocked and no administrator is willing to unblock [...] users blocked under these circumstances are considered to have been "banned by the Wikipedia community."" CaptainVindaloo ^{t c e} 18:05, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Furthur information. Darano threatened to ban us (even though his account doesn't have that ability) on Talk:MapleStory [11] and User talk:Nigholith [12]. Evidence to proof that Darano is 68.97.11.185 resides in my talk page. Notice how the wordings are exactly the same. Moreover, Darano was defending Maplefan at Talk:MapleStory#OhanaUnited?. This kind of behaviour is really uncommon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by OhanaUnited (talk • contribs) 01:54, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

"People who play this game are pathetic little losers with horrible computers and little money.Isn't it" This is part of a comment made by Darano on the Runescape talkpage (this part I have since removed). Just...wow at Ohana's post. I would guess that you could get the consenus for a community ban from the Wikipedians at the RS and MS talk pages, and I doubt that an admin would object to it, either. Seriously, someone needs to block his IP (including account creation) for a while. I wouldn't object to anything over a month, myself. --Jump! Slash! Dash! Ouch! Super Mario SonicBOOM! 12:38, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

For the last time. I AM OT A SOCKPUPPET! Do you guys usually do this to new people? I am appaled!Darano 15:53, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I have blocked this account per WP:SOCK. Crum375 15:58, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much! :-D CaptainVindaloo ^{t c e} 16:11, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

How come I haven't seen the block template on Darano or that IP address? OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 16:27, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Nvm, I done it myself. Please close, thank you. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 16:30, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Switch off the stupid fundraising scrolling marquee

At WP:VPT and at Wikipedia:Help desk there has been discussion about the current fundraising site notice at the top of all pages, the one with the scrolling marquee. There seems to be consensus that it's hugely annoying. People have found a way how to deactivate it individually by editing their monobook.css, but that's not something we can expect all affected users to do. I've offered I'd be prepared to take the step and make the corresponding edit in common.css - meaning the whole of enwiki effectually boycotting the Foundation's fundraising effort, as long as it takes this absolutely outrageous, unacceptable form. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:36, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Changed WP:WPT to WP:VPT. --cesarb 00:12, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I had an option to hide it, and hide it I did... has someone already changed something? ~Eliz81^(C) 23:39, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I added a bit of code to Common.js a few minutes ago to add a [dismiss] button, as a temporary solution at least -- if you don't see it, try purging your cache and refreshing. :) --krimpet⟲ 23:40, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Am I the only person who can't see the thing? Viridae^Talk 23:41, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

It works! shoy 23:42, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Just coming here to say the same thing, is there any diff that would show it? Ryan Postlethwaite 23:42, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I dont see a dismiss button. How do I get rid of it. Its incredibly distracting, annoying, and distasteful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.112.227.133 (talk) 23:45, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Same here all I see is [dismiss] now. At first I was seeing the banner but then I purged the cache, now the banner is gone but there is just an "dismiss" link that serves no purpose. Jackaranga 23:49, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

You might have refreshed the cache during the ten minutes that my change to common.css was active. I'd added a line that (hopefully) completely removed the banner ad for all users. --Carnildo 00:24, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Try hitting ctrl-f5. Gscshoyru 23:47, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Krimpet, you are my hero! Actually, for me at least, the effect was that it showed only the "dismiss" button... :-) By the way, I've notified the people on meta ([13]). Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:48, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

It dosen't work, can't you remove it on your end?

You know, I scroll down so fast I didn't even notice it. It's like any other banner ad at any other website to me. Dismissed and irrelevant. Resolute 23:54, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Now that the worst is over, does anyone know who was actually responsible for this? As the ad was apparently served from a "meta..." url and pointed to a meta page, I assumed it was from them, but over there we were told it was specific to enwiki. Who implemented this ad? Fut.Perf. ☼ 00:01, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, come forward! It's confusing and poorly designed. It doesn't even show up properly on my screen — it kind of flickers. Thank you for whoever added "dismiss" to it. --Haemo 00:02, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Even after "dismissing" the ad, it still shows up occasionally, for only a split second. This is a really, really tacky waste of resources that will most likely drive potential donors away. It needs to go. Now. android79 00:18, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree. The WMF really shouldn't be springing these ugly/poorly designed things on us. I know fundraising is necessary but there really needs to be a sensible design discussion first. In the interest of constructive criticism, let me say that A) pink is a poor color choice, B) jerky horizontal scrolling is a very poor design feature, C) Foreign text is way too common on the scoller for EN (more than 50% it seems, D) the box should be labeled: "Semi-annual fundraiser" or similar clarifying text, and E) the "What you don't know about us... (See more)" should go somewhere with more info about Wikipedia than the default fundraising page. I don't think there are any real precedents for the community rebelling against the Foundation, but this is so bad it is tempting, at least until a better design can be discussed and implemented. Dragons flight 00:28, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

It's so bad that at first I thought someone had hacked the Wikipedia interface to add their own advertising. --Carnildo 00:34, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

{{sofixit}}: Can't someone with halfway decent svg skills make something nicer, and we can just replace it with that, here? :-) --Kim Bruning 00:32, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Or just remove it entirely. What page controls what shows up globally like this thing? (I hope that made sense, I'm really tired.) android79 00:35, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Money good though! Some volunteers with drawing skills would be nice. :-) --Kim Bruning 00:46, 23 October 2007 (UTC) I am not the worlds greatest artist ^^;;

Money good, pissing off users bad. Even a static image would be too annoying. android79 00:55, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, we can try to make a non-annoying version ... --Kim Bruning 01:15, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

The text itself is sitting on a protected page on Meta. My CSS modifications to hide it are somewhere in the edit history of Mediawiki:common.css, though, so if you want to resurrect them, feel free. --Carnildo 00:51, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I may do just that (and then get reverted just as fast as you did). android79 00:54, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Get it OUT of there. Unnecessary - the small donation "strip" last year worked fine. ♥ Fredil 00:45, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

the {{sofixit}} solution

Merged below to #Other options?. Chick Bowen 04:20, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

The scapegoat

For you who are looking for a scapegoat, see http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki?view=rev&revision=26879 _→AzaToth 00:50, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

"Invite Satan to take our souls", indeed. At least it seems Brion knew this was a bad idea. android79 00:52, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Should also point out that it was brion who made the evil go away :) AmiDaniel (talk) 02:43, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

RfC

I added an RfC at Mediawiki talk:Common.css#Inane Sitenotice to get a consensus to remove the ad. Bushcarrot ^Talk _{Please Sign!} ^{Let's go Lightning!} 01:05, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Scrolling fixed

The banner has been adjusted to no longer scroll; see w:Wikipedia:Purge for help on clearing your cache and viewing the updated version. Cbrown1023 talk 01:33, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Other options?

Ok, we got the scrolling turned off, that's a big improvement :-) Now what's with those colors? --Kim Bruning 01:29, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

• Image:Some Attempts at better sitenotice.png, for some of my own misguided attempts to make something that looks less bothersom. ^^;; Anyone want to help make something nicer and less invasive than what's there now? --Kim Bruning 02:08, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
• Image:Movie.png is the movie image on commons. If someone were to upload a nicer variant, we would likely use it. :-) (The image is currently protected, but we can ask commons admins to unprotect or replace it of course! :-) ) --Kim Bruning 02:37, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
• [14] flashing (maybe not)
• [15] subdued.

The current banner is not... particularly aesthetically pleasing. Is anyone willing to use a silver-and-white, more Wikipedia-themed banner? I noticed Image:Wikipedia-banner-240-en.png and its interwiki counterparts today, what do people think? ~ Riana ⁂ 04:09, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

This thread was redundant with Kim's above; I've merged them down here. Chick Bowen 04:20, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

WTF was wrong with last year and the year before's nice unobtrusive progress bar? 209.77.205.2 04:21, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I assume it didn't, er, work the way we wanted it to? So we're calling in the big guns... I don't really have a problem with the increased effort (OK, a little, but I realise we do really need the cash) but it would just be nice if it were prettier 0:) ~ Riana ⁂ 04:24, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Another option is using CSS named element opacity and CSS .hover. I made a quick proof-of-concept over yonder. For browsers that don't support CSS 'opacity' directives, it'll simply appear fully opaque. --slakr^\ talk / 04:46, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Why can't we do what it did last year? i.e. not disrupt the entire page ♥ Fredil 11:21, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Redesign

One of the Board Members (Eric) has given tentative approval for replacing the banner provided that we can do better. I would encourage people to collect their efforts at Wikipedia:Fundraising redesign (and rewrite that page as necessary). The current Fundraiser is scheduled to run for 2 months, so there is good chunk of time to come up with something better, and in all likelihood we could productively run through several designs during that time. Dragons flight 04:58, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Looking at the numbers in confusion

This page is baffling me somewhat. How on earth do you manage to spend more money - 201,000 dollars versus 150,000 - on the Board of Trustees as opposed to Wikimania? There only are seven Board members, and they are supposed to be unpaid. Wikimania is, on the other hand, supposed to be The Big Showcase of All Things Bright and Beautiful about Wikipedia and matters WMF-related. Dividing 201,000 by 7 gives me 28,700 dollars in annual perks for Board members. Not bad for a non-profit - usually Board members of charities are individuals who are net assets in terms of both their money and their time, not a net drain to the tune of 29,000 each for 7 people per year! Moreschi ^Talk 14:03, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd suspect there's a lot of travel and lodging costs involved in there; several of the Board members do live in Europe, and probably have to fly over regularly (depending on how board meetings are handled), as well as move around for WMF-related events. Knowing how much it costs to fly, especially intercontinentally, that $29K per doesn't last long. The basic organizational costs for a conference aren't that high, so I can personally see it. Tony Fox (arf!) 16:02, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I saw this broken down once, and the numbers I saw seemed reasonable: plane fare, meals, taxis, car rental, hotel, phone bills. I also saw inter-board debate in which payment for child care and reimbursement for lost wages was rejected. Also saw written standards that require someone other than the recipient approving the reimbursement, that require low cost choices like no first class etc. It all seems to me to be well in hand ethics-wise. It's all on the WikiMedia's server web pages somewhere. I'm sure someone who looked hard enough could find those pages; but I can't remember the exact locations. WAS 4.250 16:47, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Relevant readings: independent audit results (.pdf) and the 2005 budget breakdown. I assume the numbers from 2006 have not been prepared yet. At least Jimbo isn't taking a helicoptor to his daughter's birthday party in Borneo on foundation money. Keegan^talk 18:02, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Btw something rather fascinating, Paypal made $45,617 off of our fundraising drive last year. Rather snarky of them to not waive the fee in the name of a tax write-off. Keegan^talk 18:04, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

At the same time, my impression is that Wikimania is fairly self-funding: every hosting proposal includes a section on local companies that are willing to donate this, that, and the other. --Carnildo 22:51, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Green bar

Why is the green bar still there and how do I get rid of it? El_C 08:43, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

In Mozilla Firefox using Adblock Plus, you can right-click the image and select "Adblock Image." I'm still trying to figure out how to block it in IE using Privoxy.--Gnfgb2 08:53, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I meant an on-wiki solution; I don't want to mess with my browser. El_C 09:50, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Custom-fit User:Slakr/nixfundraiser.js to your liking and stick it on your monobook.js. It's a quick hack, though, that one removes all sitenotices (so after the drive is over you might not see stuff like the elections for next year or whatever). --slakr^\ talk / 03:03, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I still see it. It's bugging me. I'm on IE. I purged the cache and it's still there. Jeeny ^(talk) 10:13, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I figured out how to block it in IE! You have to install IE7 Pro, though. (It works with IE6, also.) After installing, right-click on the e in the lower-right hand corner of your screen. Then, go to Ad Blocker Advanced --> View Filer Info and right-click on http://upload.wikimedia.org/fundraising/2007/meter-en.png. Then, add a rule for it. Try it, it makes IE7 act just like Firefox! Be sure to clear your temporary internet files first, though.--Gnfgb2 12:43, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

When I installed ad-blocker I did not think I would need to use it on Wikipedia, but I did. Oh well, innocence lost and all that. 1 != 2 16:04, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

WP:TURNIP

A new essay. Durova^Charge! 01:45, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Isn't that picture a radish? — iridescent 01:51, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I got it straight from the turnip article. Durova^Charge! 02:07, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Might go well with some MUSTARD. Will ^(talk) 02:04, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

And BEANS... Caknuck 06:26, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

"WP:TURNIP" is fine as a shortcut, but the essay itself needs a more meaningful title than "Wikipedia:Turnip". Hesperian 02:05, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Good point. Durova^Charge! 02:07, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Now the whole crew is here. El_C 04:35, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

It seems Wikipedia has to have an essay on every old saying. bibliomaniac15 A straw poll on straw polls 01:35, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm..Durova, have anyone in mind I wonder when you wrote this? cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:55, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Pages that need deleting - monotonous, but easy

Everything at User:Betacommand/Sandbox 2 is an orphaned talk page, and therefore eligible for deletion under CSD G8. While this task is monotonous, it is also easy: all you do is click the link given and delete the page. If you use tools like automagic delete, you can do dozens at a time; the Firefox extension "snap links" and User:^demon/CSD AutoReason also speed up the process. Help is appreciated - but more importantly, it's a great way to pad your deletion count. ;-) Picaroon (t) 04:02, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Please nobody do this without actually looking at the pages to make sure that they don't contain orphaned deletion discussions; if they do, it's normally best to move them (or the relevant part) to AfD or VfD subpage space instead of deleting. (I've had to file DRvs based on this before.) --ais523 09:33, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

This is how snap links and automagic delete are used. Pick a couple dozen pages, open them all in one click, and scan through them making sure there's nothing valuable. Then either delete the ones that have nothing valuable one by one, or close these tabs, run automagic delete, and open the links corresponding to all the pages you just checked. Presto, gone. Picaroon (t) 18:32, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes. No deletion is easy, it's just that some cases are easier than others. WP:CSD#G8 clearly says that deletion discussions not logged elsewhere are exceptions, until they are moved. There could also be other exceptions, perhaps leaving a talk page for future users to understand why a particular page is salted. It may not be common practice, but its a possibly useful exception. And why would you want to pad your deletion count? - Mtmelendez ^(Talk) 09:44, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know why, but the suggestion works to attract people to do otherwise ungratifying work. Who am I to complain about misplaced priorities? Picaroon (t) 18:32, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

What they said. I'm currently plodding through M (at Mar...). So far I have found articles on Mariano Santo, Marlon Brando Sr., Makoszowy‎, and Mark Von Hagen hiding in talkspace. I sent one page to userspace, undeleted a wrongly deleted article, and found a request for translation which I did. I still have a few to think about. If we don't get hundreds more pages in article space after purging these pages then something is very wrong. Angus McLellan (Talk) 14:59, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

A quick glance has also found similar lists from Interiot (16k pages as of April), and from Mr.Z-man (from May). If someone could at least remove the red links from the lists, I think they'd be easier to deal with. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:37, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

You bastards : - ) . I was going to get at least 10,000 deletions from that list. There's a great tool on the toolserver that can easily generate a list from a particular namespace (see here). You all foiled my plan. Oh well; I have other lists. Great work to the admins who've gone after the list. --MZMcBride 21:56, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

My list was copied from Betacommand's. I was using it to determine progress made. Mr.Z-man 02:55, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Um, could someone undelete Talk:W. Albert Noyes, Jr. and Talk:William Albert Noyes, Jr., please? I'd do it myself, but I created the pages. They were what I call "pre-creation" talk page notes, and were notes to remind whoever created the articles to create the redirects (because the redirects were already linked from other pages). It's similar to how deletion discussion on a talk page is kept (though this concept of pre-creation talk page notes is sufficiently rare that it probably isn't documented anywhere). Maybe a talk page template is needed to prevent deletion of such pages? If anyone can think of an easier way to do this "pre-creation talk page notes" thing, I'd be grateful. Carcharoth 00:59, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I also note that Talk:List of heterosexuals was incorrectly deleted, probably as part of the above process. This created a redlink at Wikipedia:Archived delete debates/2003. Though admittedly the content is not much, it is still part of the early history of the project. A simple check of "what links here" would have revealed this. Please can people be more careful and not assume that the above list was all OK to delete. Talk:Torah Cosmos is another example, this time with an actual deletion discussion, as was Talk:George Francis Cruickshank. What is this? "Delete without looking at what you are deleting-day"? Here is another one: Talk:Diamond theory. See Wikipedia:Archived delete debates/Jan to Apr 2004, and then see all the early pages at Wikipedia:Archived delete debates. I suspect the above list being blindly deleted has created lots of redlinks in those old deletion debates. This has happened before, so can we please find a permanent solution to this that avoids the "orphaned talk pages" rule being used unthinkingly to delete old deletion debates? Carcharoth 00:59, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

The previous "prevention method" involved an archive tag prominently placed at the top of the talk pages. For example, Talk:Wilfredo G. Santa clearly said: "This page is preserved as an archive of the associated article page's "votes for deletion" debate (the forerunner of articles for deletion). Please do not modify this page, nor delete it as an orphaned talk page." - please can we avoid talk of "padding deletion counts" if this is the sort of thing that results? Carcharoth 01:05, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Then perhaps the best way is to move those discussions and their histories to a sub-page of the VfD debates or WP:ADD. Then delete the talk pages. - Mtmelendez ^(Talk) 02:09, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Probably. But moving leaves behind redirects that might still get deleted as "orphans". The incoming links would have to be redirected to the new location. I suspected no-one has been bothered to deal with it yet (though this has been done for some of them). What concerns me more is that some of these were obviously not deletion material, but they still got deleted. I know we are all human, but that is not very impressive. Carcharoth 02:22, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Deletion debates on talk pages are going to be years old. Any consensus that old can almost be considered moot and any reason given might be based on policy that is quite different now, not to mention the facts themselves could change substantially in that time. New articles would not be speedy deleted if the original version was deleted 2 years ago after such a discussion and I don't know how well DRV can determine the legitimacy of such old debates. I guess what I'm saying is: Do we really need to keep these around? Also, it appears that the deleted revisions of some these articles was lost as well. Mr.Z-man 03:08, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

There's no reason for non-admins not to see them, and there was never a discussion on deleting those particular pages - they just happened to be deleted because of what namespace they were in, and they were created before namespace differentiation was a big issue as it is now. When dealing with historical pages, I generally move their histories into a place where they face no risk of being speedily deleted under the current criteria. I usually delete the offending redirect with a note in the deletion log where the history has been moved to - deletion log entries are visible to everyone, and they now show when you are in the edit screen for a non-existent page. The content of Wikipedia:Archived delete debates is not set in stone - it is just a list of archive pages. Therefore I see no problems with moving the talk pages with deletion discussions into a subpage of Wikipedia:Archived delete debates, noting where they were before, and fixing as many links as possible. I agree that care should be taken when deleting pages from arbitrary lists like orphaned talk pages or cross-namespace redirects - they may contain valuable history. Graham87 08:49, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Catching BLP violations

I've just returned to low-level editing, but out of a curiosity as to how BLP issues might have improved on Wikipedia I began some random google checking. I ran a search for "Living people" "The neutrality of" site:wikipedia.org "accusations" [16] and I've found a number of problematic articles with uncited accusations = Elsebeth Baumgartner (since speedied) Bob Mulholland [17] - and that's just on the first page.

A few suggestions

1. Are there people willing to check through some of the rest of the search results?
2. What about repeating the search with other words that "accusations" like "controversy"? (or maybe there are better searches)
3. Could someone consider designing a script to look for BLPs which have paragraphs which 1)lack references altogether OR have {fact} or {citation needed} templates AND 2) in the same paragraph contain flag words such as "sexuality" "accusation" "abuse" "gay" "racist" "criticism" "affair"?

I shudder to think what might be found.--Doc^g 15:10, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I was under the impression you had scrambled your password. Viridae^Talk 15:18, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I did. But I incompetently mis-managed removing my e-mail.--Doc^g 15:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Ahh. That explains that one. Viridae^Talk 15:24, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Welcome back, Doc. A Train^talk 18:37, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

• Welcome back Doc. I speedied the other article. I don't mind working my way through any list you can come up with. Spartaz ^Humbug! 19:29, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
• Perhaps we should create a BLP-specific notability template, to allow for quick identification of disputed biographies. FCYTravis 21:50, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Anyone interested might like to take a look at User:Doc glasgow/BLP search.--Doc^g 14:56, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Qst (talk · contribs)

I'd like to request community input into Qst (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). It's been three months now since he was banned, and after talking to him on IRC, I strongly believe he now understands his mistakes, and believe he could come back as a constructive user like he once was. He actually sounds very sincere about how he acted previously. There have also been no further instances of sockpuppetry since the ban started. I'd like to have the community ban removed under two strict conditions;

1. He is placed under community civility parole - any administrator may block him for upto one week if any of his edits are deemed to be incivil.
2. He is placed under mediation - he has already agreed on IRC that I could be his mediator.

I really hope that as a community we can forgive a user that although has made mistakes, did give a lot to the project. Ryan Postlethwaite 21:33, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Could we also ban him from interacting with "certain" editors? -- John Reaves 21:53, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't really think that's workable in a collaberative environment - the civility parole should cover that anyway. Ryan Postlethwaite 21:55, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

It seems a little idealistic, but I say we give him a last chance. -- John Reaves 21:57, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm curious to hear what others say, but I think it's a good idea to unban him if he is truly sorry about his actions. He actually did make a lot of good edits in his time here. I support the unblock and unban, but at the same time, also support a re-instatement of them if he strays back into the behavior that got him banned in the first place. I assume he'd be editing under the Qst account as well? Acalamari 22:22, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

He wanted to start a fresh account and let a couple of trusted users know the name of the account - I made it clear that this was not going to happen, so yes, he would be editing under the Qst account. Ryan Postlethwaite 22:24, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

That's fine then; I didn't think he would get to edit under a new account or one of the others. Acalamari 23:05, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I supported his ban, but I'd also support letting him resume editing. One further suggested condition would be a prohibition on running for adminship for several (at least 6, preferably 9-12) months. Much of his problematic behaviour emerged in conjunction with his RFAs. -- Flyguy649 ^talk 22:31, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I too would be willing to allow Qst a chance to come back and edit, and to reintegrate himself into the community, because, following my discussion with him on IRC, I believe that he is truly sorry and has realised his mistakes. I also agree with FlyGuy's idea in relation to RFA; that seemed to be the source of the problem last time. However, if he can prove his stability, if he can successfully prove his ability to administrate, he may yet make a good sysop sometime in the future. -- Anonymous Dissident^Talk 22:46, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I think it's clear that his RfA's normally cause him to be disruptive, so I would certainly endorse no RfA's for 6 months. Ryan Postlethwaite 22:49, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, an unban sounds ok, with the civility parole for a period of time, I see no need for RfA prohibition since any RfAs the community dislikes will be unsuccessful anyway. GDonato (talk) 22:57, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

1.) We need to know what his username is. 2.) He needs to completely stay away from the editors who he has been in conflict with (me, Riana, Moreschi, etc.) 3.) Put on RFA probation 1 year. After this, I can not see giving this person any more chances, because he has exhausted my and others patiences. Another sock made after he disrupts if he is unbanned and placed on parole, indef. ban. Miranda 23:12, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

We can't make him stay away from users in a collaborative environment. The civility parole would mean that if he approached those editors in a an incivil manor, he would get blocked. Let's be honest though, some of those users who he went mad at did inflame the situation and weren't the most civil themselves. Ryan Postlethwaite 23:17, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Also note, Miranda, that he will be editing under the name Qst. -- Anonymous Dissident^Talk 23:23, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

(reduce indent/edid conflict) To others, let us remind ourselves why he is banned. He has also sent harassing e-mails to people after he was banned, which to me was very disrespectful, but I apologize I cannot forgive what he did. I know that you may be friends with him, Ryan, but I cannot interact with Qst anymore due to running out of patience with him. How many apologies/chances are we going to give him until we are going to be firm and say, "we are through with this, sorry but due to your behavior, you are not welcome to edit"? I have seen users who make lesser offenses and given fewer chances than Qst and are banned indef. Miranda 23:28, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

He got banned after a tiny discussion. I'm not friends with him, I think he's been a dick at some points, but as I said previously, other users didn't help the situation and often made it worse - it takes two to tango. Ryan Postlethwaite 23:34, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

It may take two to tango, but let's not forget how many chances Qst has already had: Qst, The Sunshine Man, Rlest, Ds.mt, and maybe I'm missing one or two. I'd say Qst represented more than just one person in this tango. - auburnpilot talk 00:25, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Tellyaddict...that's the one I missed. - auburnpilot talk 00:26, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Aquasplash was the other one, which he used very briefly. Acalamari 01:38, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I can agree with an unban provided he uses a declared account and any administrator (even those who "dealt" with him last time) can apply one week blocks for any incivility, personal attacks, etc., and the ban becomes one year after five blocks (following traditional RfAr enforcement). This 'parole' extends to reverting to readd comments on other people's tak pages in addition to any incivility towards anyone. Sarcastic "Ha ha, I'm back" comments included.

Furthermore, any sockpuppetry, vandalism etc. incurs an immediate indefinite ban, with no avenue of community appeal. I would also agree to a twelve-month RfA parole, but looking at it Qst will never be granted administrator rights within the next couple of years, so it's no worries. Daniel 00:47, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I've dealt with Qst on a number of occasions, and I found that he had good intentions (most of the time), but he always screwed up along the way. I think an unblock is appropriate, permitted he is placed on civility parole. Any future violations of Wikipedia policy (namely sockpuppetry, vandalism, civility) will result in a unquestionable indefinite ban. Nishkid64 (talk) 00:56, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Further comment on the proposed RFA ban. The reason I am suggesting this is not because I think he would pass (it would take a very long time for him to recover from several blocks and a community ban). It is to protect User:QST from himself. I hope, if the ban is overturned, he comes back and contributes positively. But I don't want him to confuse "things going well" with the possibility for a successful RFA. If he starts an RFA I am concerned that the problems would resurface. So the RFA ban is merely to ensure that he understands that adminship is not an attainable goal for some time. -- Flyguy649 ^talk 01:02, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree to an unblock on the conditions noted at User:Daniel/Qst Provisions, and these only. Daniel 01:04, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I personally think that civility parole and mentorship are enough - civility was his only cause of disruption, not revert warring really. I've studied Qst quite a bit and I think the other paroles are a little too much. Ryan Postlethwaite 01:06, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Daniel's provisions to unblock this user. And, Ryan, yes, he did revert war. Miranda 01:12, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

The revert-warring was for other user's talk pages, so I have qualified it. Daniel 01:13, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Input: Terms of unblocking (probation)

Actually, simply this provision:-

Qst (talk · contribs) is placed on civility parole for two years. If he makes any edits which are judged by any administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, assumptions of bad faith, provocative in nature, readding removed comments, or dickish in nature, then he may be blocked for a period up to one week at the blocking administrator's discretion. After five such blocks, the maximum block time is increased to one year.

Much simpler. Daniel 01:28, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Sounds fair, but I would decrease it to one year. Ryan Postlethwaite 01:30, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

<mediation>18 months? Daniel 01:30, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but I guess if he's been an angel after a year he can always request it to be shortened. 18 months it is then if everyone else agrees. Ryan Postlethwaite 01:33, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think this user's "final chance" should consist of five chances at which point he's blocked for a year. Personally, I support him being allowed to edit again iff he knows that if he is disruptive again, that he will be indefinitely blocked. --Deskana (talk) 12:33, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I have talked to Qst off-Wikipedia and have observed his increasing maturity over the month, and agree with very little hesitation that he could now be allowed back into our community, albeit placed under very close supervision for the initial period. He seems to have seen his errors and is willing to correct them. I agree to the terms of the parole laid out above (and believe, from my previous conversations with him, that he believes these to be fair also), but I think 6 months of parole is more than enough - it's a long time on Wikipedia. (A few months and he's almost a different person, now. It's a long time when you're a teenager too, you do a lot of growing up). ~ Riana ⁂ 09:12, 27 October 2007 (UTC) edited 10:11, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Further Further Comment - Its good to see that this prolific editor will be back editing on Wikipedia. He had issues which was mentioned above and while chatting with him on IRC and through e-mail, he has shown that he is remorseful for what he has done and and as Ryan noted he will return as a constructive editor and as far as his adminship dream, hehe, it will remain unfulfilled for I believe 1 year (that will be good enough) and Ryan is a really a good Mediator and his interaction with Qst has been excellent and he might just as well steer him to a better path..Good Luck..--Cometstyles 12:25, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Comment – Like Riana, I have also talked to Qst off-wiki, and feel he is genuinely sorry for the actions he made under his accounts. He is growing in maturity, and is very meticulous about what he says. The provisions were prudently made and should help him become a functional member of Wikipedia again, as is his wont. Yes, he revert-warred; yes, he was a dick at some times; yes, he was uncivil at some times. But we've all been or done those things at one point or another in our wiki-lives. I have one more condition that may not be liked by some, though I will lay it out to be discussed: Qst is barred from violating any of the provisions off-wiki as well. Multiple infractions may result in a block not more than 48 hours in duration (note that this will not count toward the possibility of the one-year block). (This is purely precautionary, as some people will inevitably try to bait him on and off-wiki about various matters.) Other than that, I have no further things to say, and wish to welcome Qst back into the community. Regards, —Animum (etc.) 13:58, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Comment from PrestonH - I talk to Qst via IRC chat, and I believe Qst has cooled down and has learned his lesson. Based on the fact that he is prone to trolling after RfA, I can support his unblock under two conditions...

1. Put on civility parole for at least 6 months. He has cooled down but who knows what will happen next.
2. Put on RfA parole for a year based on what I said above.

He is a great user and I wish Qst would be back in the community soon. PrestonH 16:06, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

May I suggest that Qst be allowed to edit his talk page, so that people who are not IRC regulars can have a chance to talk to him? --Iamunknown 00:39, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

User talk:Qst was unprotected about 12 hours ago, so I don't see why he can't use it now. -- Flyguy649 ^talk 00:43, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for point that out, I did not notice it. --Iamunknown 01:42, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm a bit late to this party, I know, but for the record, I support unbanning and I agree with the terms outlined by Ryan in the link in the next section. Personally, I think two years is way too long; I don't know if we've had two year paroles (I haven't noticed one before) is but it seems most paroles are up to a year and for the sake of fairness and consistency, I think the decision to stick with one year is fair. Sarah 17:49, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Unbanned

I've unbanned Qst per these conditions, I've shortened the parole to 1 year, per consensus and my own belief that anything grater isn't required. I hope everyone can work constructively with Qst now and refraid provoking him. Ryan Postlethwaite 02:09, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I hope Qst can work constructively with everyone and refrain from feeling provoked by little things. ~ Riana ⁂ 11:44, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, good luck with that. I'll hold off on my "what did you expect?" comments, but expect them to appear soon. Corvus cornix 22:32, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Article tagging dispute

This is probably a content dispute, but there are intimations of requests for admin action being made, and I'm going to be away for the next few days, so I thought I'd drop a note off here in the hope that some fresh pairs of eyes and inputs can help de-escalate things if needed. I'm going to state how I see things, and hopefully others will add their side of things if needed. Forgive me if I get anything wrong in what follows. User:BrownHairedGirl recently came across some articles about locations in Middle-earth, and tagged them for notability and some other problems. After the tags were removed she nominated the articles for AfD (I think that discussing with the editor in question would have been more productive). Most of the discussion took place at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gondor, though some took place at the other AfD debates and at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Middle-earth. Some of the discussions were productive and useful, and it was made clear that work was being done (albeit slowly) on these and related articles. What I didn't expect was what happened next, which was a mass tagging of around 150 articles. Some relevant links are User_talk:BrownHairedGirl#Mass_tagging and User_talk:BrownHairedGirl#A_start, as well as Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Middle-earth#Update. A similar case of mass tagging was discussed back in August, see here. Obviously WikiProject Middle-earth needs to work harder on these articles (establishing notability, merging, and referencing to reliable sources), but I'd like to ask again - what is acceptable tagging behaviour? Is it acceptable to tag dozens of articles (around 150) in one go? How slowly and how fast is it expected that work will be done? Another question I have is whether it is acceptable to say that an article will be nominated for deletion if a tag is removed? There must be better, less confrontational ways to get people to take notice of tags placed on articles, like discussing on a talk page, for example. What followed was a mass reversal of the tagging, with a mass reversal of the reversals. I added some sources to some of the articles and removed the tags, thinking I'd satisfied the request, but slightly different tags were re-added, which was fair enough, but still a bit disappointing. I intend to add more sources, and have been trying to discuss the whole issue with BrownHairedGirl. We are (I think) making progress, but it has been frustrating at times (for both of us, I think). I think my concerns can be summed up as how to get the balance right between pushing people to improve articles, while not pressuring them with implicit threats of deletion debates and dozens of tags. Carcharoth 02:17, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

As per my comments on BHG's talk page, I think the appropriate forum for this conversation is Wikipedia talk:Notability (fiction), as that's where the people best qualified to comment will be. Having the conversation here runs the risk of reinforcing the "Admins are a decision-making elite" myth/attitude. — iridescent 02:39, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Carcharoth is right that it has been frustrating! There have been several difficulties in all this, including what appears to be a widespread lack of awareness amongst participants in WikiProject Middle-earth of the notability guidelines. This has unfortunately included several instances of misleading guidance being given to project members, such as claiming that references to the work of Tolkien's son Christopher are sufficient, when as his father's literary executor, posthumous editor and finisher-of-uncompleted works, he is clearly not independent of the subject as required by WP:NOTE and WP:FICTION. However, after further discussion on my talk page, it became clear that Carcharoth had simply misunderstood the guidelines. That happens sometimes — we all learn as we go — and I think that having cleared up that misunderstanding we should be much closer to finding a way forward.

However, I am disappointed that Carcharoth's statement here omitted to mention that immediately after my initial tagging of a dozen or so articles (and before any AfD nominations), I initiated a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Middle-earth#Notability_of_articles (I posted there rather than to the articles' talkpages, because it is better to centralise discussion). I should also point out that the editor IronGargoyle used admin tools to simply mass-revert the addition of the tags (see User talk:IronGargoyle#Re:_Tags_you_removed), and declined an invitation by Carcharoth to discuss the issue, preferring to assume bad faith and dismiss the tagging as "disruptive retaliatory mass-tagging" ... and that it was IronGargoyle who removed the tags from these articles back in August, the subject of Carcharoth's above-referenced ANI complaint. Ten weeks after those tags were removed, the vast majority of the articles concerned remained wholly unreferenced, which rather highlights why the tags had been applied in the first place.

As to whether deletion is an appropriate option, it might be helpful to point out that every time an editor starts a new article, it says in bold text on the edit screen Articles that do not cite reliable published sources are likely to be deleted. If editors reject the tagging of articles to highlight the lack of adequate references, it seems perverse for them to complain if deletion is contemplated instead.

However, Iridescent is right: this would be better discussed at Wikipedia talk:Notability (fiction). If the members of WikiProject Middle-earth want Tolkien's work to be treated as an exception to wikipedia' policies and guidelines, let's discuss removing those guidelines or amending to make middle earth an exception. I think that the progress made last night probably makes such a discussion redundant, but if other editors feel that it's worth having, then Wikipedia talk:Notability (fiction) is indeed the place for it.

Just one thing, though: if an IronGargoyle again uses admin tools to mass revert the addition of {{unreferenced}} or similar tags to unreferenced or under-referenced articles, I will raise the matter again here. Admin tools should not be used to disrupt efforts to improve the quality of articles by inviting editors to ensure that they meet wikipedia's core content policies. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:22, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Just before we continue this discussion over at Wikipedia talk:Notability (fiction), I wanted to add that the concern that Carcharoth is raising is not so much of what issues you had over notability - because we do see that there is a need in Tolkien-related articles for a balance between primary sources and reliable sources independent of them in order to establish "independent notability." In fact, we are currently discussing on what system to set up for notability and references in the WikiProject. What he was questioning was the mass tagging and the AfD nominations that quickly followed. It was good that you had stepped up and raised ths issue onto the WikiProject talkpage, but there was so little time given between the the time you brought the issue on the talkpage and nominating some of the articles for AfD. It seemed to the members of the WikiProject as if we were being forced to fix dozens and dozens of tagged articles within a span of one day! While I do think Irongargoyle should have followed Uthanc's advice - it was Uthanc, not Carcharoth (so you do have one more member of the WikiProject who agrees that a discussion should've followed) - to discuss it with you in regards to mass tagging, I'm not sure if following Irongargoyle's mass removal with quickly putting those articles for AfD while we were having a discussion over at the WikiProject about the very same topic of notability with so little time given to the members for improvement was the right course of action. Your justification for putting those articles up for AfD was that "if the tags are removed, then I have to conclude that editors find the article satisfactory as they are, in which case the AfD process is needed." With all due respect, I am puzzled over how you reached the conclusion that the mass removal of tags by ONE member of a WikiProject constitutes for the opinion of all members of the WikiProject - especially since Carcharoth, CBD, Uthanc, and I have all acknowledged that we needed work in referencing and merging article before those tags were removed, to which you have followed it up with, "Good to know that a cleanup is underway." I thought we were having a productive discussion that cleared things up, but I admit I am a little disappointed in the light of what has followed afterwards. :-(

My question is - to echo Carcharoth's, how much time are we given in order to reference and merge OVER 150 tagged articles? It is no easy feat to work on and polish one article, let alone 150-193 articles! While BrownHairedGirl brings up good points about the need for more independent sources, I feel that more time should be given to the WikiProject and more productive discussions between editors should take place and be allowed to finish before any sort of tagging war between two editors or AfD nominations begin.

NOTE: If I sound hostile, BrownHairedGirl, forgive me - for it was not my intention to act so. I do respect the points you bring up, I would just like for several things to be cleared up in the face on confusion and miscommunication. While I do not believe that you tagged those articles in bad faith, I believe there could've been a better way that would've been less confrontational and more communicative to deal with this issue. —Mirlen 15:10, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments, Mirlen: I don't agree with everything you said, but they didn't feel at all hostile. I am surprised, though, that you wish I had been more communicative; AFAICS, I have responded to everything, and initiated the discussion at the wikiproject (where it would have been ice to have more input from project members). OTOH, IronGargoyle, who zapped all the tags, has chosen not to engage in the discussions, which is a pity.

I take your point about the tagging appearing confrontational, and I know that you are not the only member of the project to feel that … but I hope you'll forgive me for suggesting that there may be a little bit of WP:OWNership here. The objections raised to tagging included claims that the tags are intrusive (true, they are supposed to be!), that independent refs aren't needed, and that a few voices arguing that Tolkien is so important that nothing about anything Tolkien should ever be questioned (for clarity I'm definitely not including you or Carcharoth in that last category). I hope you'll understand that I don't intend to be conflictual when I say that WPME seemed to be paying v little attention to notability, and that was perhaps why the tagging came as a shock. In other areas of wikipedia, such tagging is routine, and is regarded as a helpful reminder of an oversight, rather than as an attack; I think that the aversion to it here may be an indication that WPME needed a bit of a wakeup call, having responded to the tagging in August with mass removal, an ANI complaint, and (so far as I can see) little change of emphasis or attempt to address why those tags could be added to so many articles (the solution doesn't just lie in the ongoing merge process, since many of the merge targets failed WP:NOTE).

As to who supported the removal of tags, I saw no objection to IronGargoyle's mass removal of them in August, nor to his/her removal of them this time. Maybe "support" is too strong a word, and acquiescence would have been better, but as you'll see at project talk, there was considerable objection to the existence of any such tags (and no objection at all to IronGargoyle's removal on friday morning of of some of the first batch I had added).

I too was disappointed about the way the situation developed, but it seems to me that things are now going rather well. I don't watchlist all the articles I tagged, but I still saw more than five which had been well-referenced today alone, at least two of which I was pleased to remove the tags from. It seems to me that's exactly how these tags should work: identify a problem, and remove the label when it's fixed.

As to timelines, my understanding is that there is no formal limit to how long articles can remain tagged that way, and today I encountered several (in a difft field) tagged for attention for over a year. However, I think that as time goes by, the likelihood of an unreferenced article being PRODed or AFDed increases. I think that an AfD debate would probably look askance at a nomination if the tags had only been there a few weeks, unless the article was clearly trivial; after 6 months, I imagine there might be a greater inclination to raise the threshold for inclusion.

I certainly wouldn't expect his to be sorted out overnight, or even within weeks. The ME WikiProject has inherited a huge collection of stub articles on trivia, and sorting them all out is no small job ... and I for one would be a strong advocate of more time being given if there are AfD noms for something which arguably might be notable if the project really is trying to tackle the notability problem by independent referencing rather than by assertion (and I really do now think some members of the wikiproject are serious about that). To my mind, it's all a matter of good faith; if the project encourages the tagging of unref and nn articles, and does try to establish notability as it progresses through articles, then it would seem to me to be perverse to set arbitrary deadlines.

I'm particularly encouraged to see the thread you linked to at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Middle-earth/Standards#References, which followed rapidly after the AfD nominations. I guess that you and few others might say that would have happened anyway, but I have my doubts (there was a rather lukewarm response when I raised the issue 36 hours previously). That seems to me to be crucial development, and I wish you all luck in pursuing it. While we might differ on who we got here, can we perhaps all agree that it's good news all round have reached a point where the problems appear to be en route to being resolved to the satisfaction everyone? (except, sadly, one or two few stray voices who appear to reject even WP:V). Please keep up the good work you have started :) --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:40, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, I've been quite busy in real life and haven't had the chance to reply to the teapot-tempest that seems to have resulted from the tagging, untagging, different-tagging, and different-untagging. I would like to reply to a few key points that seem to be framed as an indictment of my behavior:

Firstly, I discussed the initial untagging in the edit summary. I see your points about Christopher Tolkien, but I don't agree with them. Christopher Tolkien's work can serve as a secondary source and I never accused this misunderstanding of yours to be in bad faith (even when you have somewhat belligerently maintained your view against consensus).

Perhaps my use of the word "retaliatory mass-tagging" on my talk page was a bit harsh, and for that I apologize. You must admit, however, that going through and tagging every instance of an entire category without regard for the quality of the articles within that category looks a mite suspicious, particularly given the sequence of events. Other editors (Guest9999) did this several months ago, and I feel as though the general consensus of the resulting discussion did not suggest anything improper about my removal of the tags (nor was Guest999's behavior in tagging wholly condemned either). I maintain that mass-tagging should be avoiding whenever possible. It is not good editing practice. I felt (at the time) that it was being done to make a point, both yesterday and several months ago. You frequently cite WP:FICTION in this dispute, but you ignore the fact that sub-articles are a legitimate aspect of this guideline. I don't oppose the merger of stub-length articles that are unlikely to be expanded further, but when you nominate for deletion the targets of such mergers I am baffled.

For all your purported moral superiority about communicating more than someone who has clearly not been editing much recently (me), you failed to even notify me of the mass AfD nomination that apparently was triggered by my civil, explained and justified removal of a few notability tags. I would like to add that there is a significant amount of AfD precedent for these articles being notable.

I have not misused administrative tools in this dispute. Any editor may revert changes, and many non-administrative editing tools include a rollback function. I would like to add that I have, throughout this process maintained my 1RR principles (threatening to nominate any further untagged articles for deletion certainly violates the spirit of 1RR if not the letter).

I would like to say that I am particularly disturbed by your legalistic attitude and behavior, particularly the re-tagging in response to Carcharoth's improvement of a number of articles.

I don't really have any desire to revert or discuss this further. It seems as though the issue has been satisfactorily resolved for now, and I'm far too busy in real life to get into policy discussions. I may go through and add references when I get the chance however. I just felt like I needed to defend myself against the allegations and insinuations that have been leveled against me. Best regards, IronGargoyle 23:44, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

A few quick points:

• the question is not simply whether CT is a secondary source, which he may be in some case, but whether he is an "independent source", which (as I explained above) seems like a very strange claim.
• your suggestion that I tagged articles "without regard to quality" is an unfounded and uncivil personal attack, and I hope that you will withdraw it. I examined every article carefully before tagging, and did not tag all of them; the reason that so many were tagged is simply because very few of the hundreds of articles in those categories were properly referenced (I think that on that run I found 5 which were properly refed, and about 150 which weren't). The speed with which you untagged them, apparently by using links in the change logs to revert the changes, makes it highly unlikely that you could have done any similar assessment.
• You may well be baffled by my nomination of the merged articles, but if so that can only be because you didn't read either my comment on the project page or at AfD: the merged articles had not established notability per guidelines.
• It's up to you if don't want to discuss this further. But if you don't want to participate in discussions, kindly refrain from using your admin tools to mass-delete selectively-applied tags on on articles with outstanding deficiencies. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:34, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Ummm... A personal attack? Uncivil? I was focusing on the quality of the edits not the quality of the contributor. I suggest that you re-read our policy on what a personal attack is, and particularly the section about making unfounded accusations of personal attacks... IronGargoyle 16:59, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

(deindent)I think this thread is nearly resolved now (and it turns out no admin action was needed, so apologies for bringing it up here - once it is archived I will try and remember to add links from Wikipedia talk:Notability (fiction) and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Middle-earth). Just a few stray points to respond to on editing behaviour: I did say "Forgive me if I get anything wrong in what follows", and I apologise for failing to mention that BHG initiated a discussion on the WikiProject talk page. The guideline misunderstanding that BHG talks about was me adding a single source, and her pointing out that multiple sources are required. That was more a misunderstanding of the tag than the guidelines - one of the disadvantages of leaving tags, as opposed to discussing with active editors or editors who might respond to tags, is that you can't be sure that the editors are going to follow every link and carefully read every guideline - you can't even be sure what quality of editor you will attract with the tag - which reinforces my opinion that discussing article problems with editors is always preferable - attract attention with tags, sure, but once discussion has started, don't legalistically step through a series of tags as the article slowly improves, or disrupt ongoing work by starting AfDs or engaging in mass tagging in a series of closely-related articles. Tagging is only helpful up to a certain point - after that it becomes unhelpful and should be replaced by discussion and a tag saying see the talk page for the discussion. But this is getting into personal philosophy now. As Mirlen pointed out, it is the behaviour that most concerned me, particularly the attitude of (paraphrasing) "if you remove the tags I'll nominate the articles at AfD" attitude. Given that BHG has now said (direct quote) "I think that an AfD debate would probably look askance at a nomination if the tags had only been there a few weeks, unless the article was clearly trivial; after 6 months, I imagine there might be a greater inclination to raise the threshold for inclusion.", I can only assume that you thought Gondor was a trivial subtopic, or that the AfDs and subsequent mass tagging (previously limited to four articles) was trying to gain attention or make some sort of point. BHG did get attention, and as a result more work is being done and will be done, but the WikiProject talk page discussion alone could have achieved that.

The issue of communication has also been raised, and it is not so much lack of communication from BHG (who as she says has responded to all the discussions), but more a feeling that BHG hasn't understood parts of what we have been saying (or not accepting it until we produce the goods - which works up to a certain point), see the comments from CBD on her talk page. That leads to an overall feeling of frustration, and just makes things that little bit more difficult and stressful. When I engage in such discussions, I try to bring some references to the table and help out - I find it helps the discussions go a lot more smoothly. IronGargoyle also makes some good points, and I agree with them. To end on a positive note, I'll quote BHG's conclusion, which I agree with: "can we perhaps all agree that it's good news all round have reached a point where the problems appear to be en route to being resolved to the satisfaction everyone?".

I apologise again for bringing this here - it was clearly the wrong venue. Hopefully we can end the thread, or continue somewhere else. Carcharoth 07:22, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I too am glad we have got there. But there are two point that I will reiterate:

• tagging an unreferenced article with {{unreferenced}} is both a warning to readers that an article which does not meet wikipedia's one of most fundamental criteria (WP:V), and an invitation to improve that improve that article. The removal of those tags from a wholly unreferenced could be considered vandalism, and is at best an attempt to undermine the improvement of such articles. If that happens, I still think that it entirely legitimate to ask the community to decide whether the article should stay. If IronGargoyle, or any other editor, objects in future to the tagging of unreferenced articles as {{unreferenced}}, then I regard it as being appropriate for them to discuss why they believe that it is satisfactory for the articles to remain unreferenced, and not to make hostile allegations of disruptiveness when the problems are identified.
• AS I explained at the time at project talk, the reason I nominated Gondor and 3 other articles was simply that as merge targets, they were clearly being treated by the project's editors as notable articles, but did not demonstrate notability 'and the tags to request request that they do were promptly deleted (an action which has not been rejected by any of the project members). I think that's the issue for the future: this sort of situation arises only when a wikiproject has not been paying sufficient attention to notability, and perceives the querying of the notability of articles as a hostile or confrontational act rather that as an invitation to improve. The project's ability to avoid this situation in future depends on how effectively it engages with the notability issue, and whether it can continue its welcome progress away from regarding notability and referencing as hostile impositions. As I have suggested before, I hope that we will get to a point where there is no scope for outsiders to mass-tag unreferenced middle-earth articles, because such tags are routinely applied by the project itself pending the improvement and/or merger of the articles, and reinstated by project members if deleted. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:34, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

• I think this might be what lies at the heart of the dispute. I don't claim to speak for others, but I know that I approach all articles with a degree of scepticism, regardless of whether they have a tag or not. When judging an article and its citations, I look for key things that suggest how notable the topic is, how reliable the sources are, and how consistent and comprehensive the verification is, and so on. In some ways, I subconsciously presume the readers think this way ("let the reader beware" or some such thing). In some sense, tags should be on all Wikipedia articles until there are clear reasons to remove them. But then, as you read more and more articles, you find that many, if not most, articles lack such tags, but (and this is a key point), the articles are still slowly improving over time. Tagging doesn't seem to noticeably impact this. The "edit this page" tab is, in my opinion, a better and more efficient way to suggest to people that they might be able to improve the article. Or to put it another way, from what I've seen, articles develop and improve quite nicely without any need for tagging (or only some minor tagging).

  It is possible this may be a bias to do with the articles I read and the editors I work with - possibly articles in other areas and editors in other areas find that tagging helps improve articles quicker than would normally be the case. The processes by which an article starts and develops can also be very different, and (surprising though it may be) this may also affect how efficient tagging is at achieving the desired improvement of the article. To point out just a few: you can have incremental improvements by passing editors (the default option for most articles), dedicated improvements by an expert editor (the ideal situation), systematic improvements by groups of collaborating editors (possibly as part of a WikiProject), and so on.

  In this case (the Tolkien articles), as CBD has pointed out elsewhere, the articles are mostly very old (created by an initial phase of article creation by early editors - some of whom are still around). Part of what the WikiProject has been doing is trying to bring more order to this group of articles, and rather than establish notability for 100 separate articles, merging followed by establishing notability for the merge destination (once merging has been completed), seems more efficient. In other words, the merging is not saying "the merge destination is notable", but more "let's tidy this up and when we've done that stage, let's step back and see where we've got to".

  Ultimately, I think the articles will end up with the same references and establishment of notability that they would have done before BrownHairedGirl brought up these issues. It just might happen slightly faster and with more urgency. Whether that added pressure means we (Wikipedia) will end up with better articles than if the same process had taken place without those pressures, is debatable. Carcharoth 00:11, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Indefinite block without any reasonable explanation.

Regarding the block of User:Dyskolos, please address all concerns directly to the Arbitration Committee at arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org Fred Bauder 03:31, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Déjà vu! El_C 19:06, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Lewis

Please review Lewis's block. All his contributions on June were to his talk page and perfectly acceptable in my opinion, and there was no reason for him to be blocked in the first place, and no reason why he should be still blocked. A.Z. 02:25, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Loomis51's block log shows that he was blocked for disruptive editing, and that block was moved to indefinite due to his expressed desire to continue being disruptive. He apologized and was given a 2nd change under specific terms. He used his time while unblocked to stalk and harass another user, and his indefinite block was restored for his failure to follow the terms of the unblock. Seems cut and dry to me. His talk page was even protected due to continued soapboxing. He is welcome to contact the blocking admin by e-mail, e-mail the list, or contact the arbcom if he wants an appeal. What I don't understand why this user couldn't do these steps on their own. What is your interest in this case? Have you been in contact with the user and you know that they desire to be unblocked?-Andrew c ^[talk] 02:50, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I like Lewis and I like fairness, and those are my interests. I don't think he was stalking nor harassing anyone. Yes, I don't really get why he continued posting on Clio's talk page, but it wasn't harassment. A.Z. 02:55, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

He has been editing disruptively at least as recently as September 21: [18].  --Lambiam 23:29, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Even as recently as October 28: [19]  --Lambiam 01:19, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Er, those are the other banned Ref Desk troll, Light current. But we shouldn't forget Lewis' self-identified, abusive, namecalling sock, Serinmort (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). TenOfAllTrades(talk) 01:36, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Oops, yes. I am quite puzzled by the fact that our friend A.Z. does not consider Lewis' posting on Clio's talk page harassment, but then, sound judgement does not seem to be his forte. Now he has been indef-blocked himself.  --Lambiam 11:23, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Editors willing to make difficult edits

I notice earlier this month this page was created, mirroring Wikipedia:Admins willing to make difficult blocks. However I have serious misgivings. I've fixed most of the text but even so would like to check, does this page further the project?

As it stands, I've cleaned up the page and it's decent enough. Previously it read more like a virtual call to meatpuppetry and problematic proxy editing, and a long, long list of abuses which it states editors might risk and which can be avoided by getting another editor to proxy edit for them this way, that started with:

"Wikipedia editors may be subject to the following types of abuse: being banned or blocked for their off-site activities being banned or blocked without due process being called a "troll" ... being harassed or intimidated by abusive administrators being falsely labeled a sockpuppet of a banned user ... having defamatory statements placed on user pages having defamatory statements placed on talk pages ... having editors and administrators of Wikipedia pry into their real lives without consent or consultation ..."

I've removed the worst of it, and in general we do strongly encourage productive editors to edit collaboratively and help one other. But two concerns remain: 1/ this page might be seen as an invitation to meatpuppetry, COI proxying, and warring via well meaning uninvolved proxy parties ("I can't do X because people revert me, can you do it for me?"), and 2/ if there really is a genuine editorial problem at this level, surely we want to encourage editors to seek experienced help or dispute resolution, rather than just proxy editors? I've also left a note for the page's creator. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 05:50, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

For anyone who's not aware (and do forgive me linking to a borderline BADSITE here) this page appears to be trolling by the Wikipedia Review. — iridescent 17:35, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

It's obviously intended as a parody, though whether or not it is amusing is left as an exercise for the reader. If it's confusing anyone, maybe it should be userfied. It's also on MfD now if anyone is interested. Newyorkbrad 17:39, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

There was an ArbCom recently where it was determined that linking to non-attack material on Wikipedia critical sites (with exceptions which doesn't include WikipediaReview) for the purpose of furthering Wikipedia is allowable, so no worries there. LessHeard vanU 23:33, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Hello - I believe that the original text for the page [20] explains my intent for the page. It has since been edited with material added and subtracted, with the resulting page not clearly conveying my original vision. I don't want to restate everything which is already present on the page as it was originally created, and I certainly cannot reasonably argue that there is no chance that bad things might occur if an editor can request that another editor edit something for them. The heart of the 'Editors willing to make difficult edits' page is:

Evidence has been provided that Wikipedia editors are subject to: cyberstalking, offline stalking, being outed without their consent, sexual humiliation, threats of physical violence, being contacted at home, threats to family, being contacted at work, dismissal from work, and other negative consequences.

Any editor faced with editing with a disruptive or abusive editor, or who is being threatened because of having previously edited with such a person, can contact one of the editors on this list and request that they take over the case.

There are dispute resolution policies and procedures, the purpose of which is to facilitate the creation of an encyclopedia. The "Editors willing to make difficult edits" page doesn't disagree with these policies or encourage disruption of any sort. It states that if you feel unsafe and have a fear of real-life harassment due to editing Wikipedia, that you have an option to disengage and have another editor take over that situation. The other editor can of course take advantage of the Wikipedia dispute resolution procedures if they are needed.

Wikipedia doesn't exist to make people sad - there is no reason an editor should be required to interact on Wikipedia in any way that makes them feel unsafe. If an editor volunteers to help someone feel safer and to help them improve the encyclopedia, that action is certainly within the spirit of fostering the online community of people interested in building a high-quality encyclopedia in a spirit of mutual respect. Uncle uncle uncle 20:07, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Confirmed as to most of this being added after. The bulk of the problem edits were Caius Martius (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) with others by Dtobias (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). However concerns still stand and seek thought anmd##d reassurance. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 01:12, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[WikiEN-l] Anonymous page creation will be reenabled on English Wikipedia

Let's keep discussion centralized at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Anonymous page creation will be reenabled on English Wikipedia, a more convenient place for the thread. -- ReyBrujo 00:08, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

David jason Silver

Resolved

I found a previous discussion about this user here so I hope this is the correct place to bring this to an administrator's attention. While researching a current AfD at David jason Silver I found evidence that the article's creator is a long-term vandal (see Administrators' noticeboard link above) and he doesn't seem to have changed his pattern; creating self-promotional pages for himself filled with grandiose imaginary achievements. I'll make a link back to this page in the AfD and hope an administrator will do the appropriate thing; if I can be of further assistance, let me know. Accounting4Taste 15:12, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Deleted, author blocked as sock. MaxSem 17:12, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Problem with Administrator DragonflySixtyseven

I've recently been contributing to a Wikipedia article on the British astronomer Herbert Dingle, and I've put a lot of effort into adhering strictly to the Wikipedia policies and principles for editing potentially controversial articles. This is especially important for this article, because a number of "physics cranks" (in the words of Jimbo Wales) have devoted themselves to filling that article with unverifiable "original research" and "novel narratives", basically trying to portray Dingle as the noble but persecuted victim of the evil world-wide conspiracy of Einstein-worshiping scientists to foist the obvious nonsense of relativity theory down the throats of decent people. In this context, the only reasonable way forward is to adhere very closely to Wikipedia policies, and insist that the article contain only verifiable material from reputable sources.

As anyone who has ever dealt with physics cranks knows, there is no point in trying to argue what is "true" with them. Wiki policies recognize the futility of this, and they were designed to provide a practical means of preventing dedicated physics cranks from overwhelming Wikipedia. For the most part they work fairly well. I can cite many articles (such as the one on Le Sage's Theory of Gravity) that have been turned from crackpot nonsense into very decent articles, due to the hard work and patience of people who are genuinely interested in producing good science articles in accord with Wikipedia policies.

However, I recently logged on to find the following message from administrator Dragonflysixtyseven:

You will no doubt notice that (just like Swanzsteve) you are blocked for a day. This is because edit wars are annoying. I have moved your draft version of the article to User:Denveron/Herbert Dingle (draft). Once your blocks have expired, you and Swanzsteve will STILL not be allowed to edit the article, until such time as you have reached an agreement by arguing on your use talk pages. Keep the drama out of the article. If either of you tries to edit the article without having the other's agreement, I'll block you both. Got it?

It's my belief that the above message (and the blocking action) of this administrator was both unjustified and unreasonable. The cited cause of the action was "because edit wars are annoying". This is simply a generic statement, not a justification for why anyone in particular should be blocked. No Wikipedia rules were violated. For example, there was no 3rr violation. Furthermore, every one of my edits on the article in question has been accompanied with careful Discussion, and has been justified by Wikipedia policies.

It is true that a number of edits and counter-edits have taken place, but this is unavoidable when dealing with physics cranks who are determined to insert their crackpot POV into Wikipedia articles. Surely the rules of Wikipedia editing have been developed for a reason, and the ability to revert edits has been provided for a reason. These are capabilities that were designed to be used. As long as all the rules and policies are followed, I think it's unwarranted to block editors. And it's especially counter-productive to block editors who have consistently shown that they are adhering to Wikipedia policies and are striving to produce a good article in accord with those policies. Also, to tell someone that he will be blocked until he has reached agreed with a hard-core physics crackpot is simply insane. If crackpots could be reasoned with, they wouldn't be crackpots. The very definition of a physics crank is that they don't respond to reason. And Wikipedia policies have been designed to avoid the need to "reason" with physics cranks. Perhaps Dragonfly is just unfamilar with these facts.

I'd also like to point out that Dragonfly's message said

If either of you tries to edit the article without having the other's agreement, I'll block you both.

I actually had to read that sentence several times to be sure it said what it seems to say. Apparently if some OTHER editor behaves in a way that defies Dragonflies edict, Dragonfly proposes to block ME. Excuse me for saying so, but I wonder if perhaps Dragonfly would like to take a minute and reconsider that message. And if he still thinks it was appropriate, I'd like to suggest that whoever appointed him as an Administrator reconsider that appointment.

In summary, without citing a single violation of any Wikipedia rule, Dragonfly has blocked a very hard-working and conscientious editor, who has only been trying to prevent physics cranks from turning an article into their own conspiratorial "novel narrative", and then has threatened further action against this editor if some OTHER editor mis-behaves. I invite anyone who's interested to review the article history and the Discussion page, and decide for yourself whether Dragonfly's action was appropriate.

One last comment. Throughout the editing of this particular article (which has been plagued by numerous sockpuppetting and other nonsense), several Wikipedia Admins have made comments to the effect that it is ridiculous how much attention is being paid to such an obscure topic like Herbert Dingle. The admins have said "this is so lame", etc. I think it should hardly need to be said that the whole basis of Wikipedia is that, for each topic, even the little-known obscure topics, there are people in the world who are knowledgeable on that topic and CARE that it be presented accurately. This is the life's blood of Wikipedia. I think it's appalling that Admins take it upon themselves to express contempt and disdain for individuals who come here to contribute to Wikipedia articles in accord with the policies and principles. In general, I think the Admins who have had anything to do with the Herbert Dingle article have not well represented the interests of Wikipedia.Denveron 16:54, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Specific diffs would go a long way toward substantiating this, but as a general response I'd point to Wikipedia:Disruptive editing, which was designed to deal with people who park themselves at some article and insist something like The moon is made of green cheese. There's no sense in trying to compromise with someone like that. Rather, try something like an article content request for comment to bring in broader opinions and document the disruptive behavior. That can restore a normal status quo, and in case it doesn't it can provide grounds for other remedies such as a community ban. Durova^Charge! 17:40, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I've let DragonflySixtyseven know about this thread. Newyorkbrad 17:43, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

As an involved editor on the Herbert Dingle article, I concur with much of what Denveron wrote above. However, I disagree that admins have mishandled the situation. The article and talk page have been totally berserk for months. Give some time for DragonflySixtyseven to do what he said (try to make sense of what's been going on), and then we'll see how things shake out. If other editors wish to do the same, that would be great. Don't forget to check for holes in your gear beforehand. Tim Shuba 18:58, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Durova indicated above that "specific diffs would go a long way toward substantiating this", so I'll just mention that I was blocked from editing the Herbert Dingle article for being so bold as to remove the following sentence from the article (which followed a sentence stating that Einstein's special theory of relativity has not been experimentally falsified):

"Although Louis Essen, the inventor of the Atomic Clock has questioned the validity of the experimental evidence in an article in Nature, saying: "Einstein stressed the tentative nature of his theory and the need for experimental models. Contrary to popular belief, there is no evidence concerning the special theory as propounded, because no experiment has been made in a force-free space".

I deleted this sentence, because (1) Essen was a well-known crackpot, (2) the "article in Nature" was actually a letter to the editor, and (3) there is an abundance of highly reputable sources (e.g., textbooks from academic publishers with good reputations for scholarly work) all supporting the original statement in the article that Einstein's theory of special relativity is supported by (i.e., not falsified by) a vast amount of experimental evidence. I honestly think the above sentence was simply inserted to promote a crackpot POV and to obfuscate the very well documented and solidly sourced claim that Einstein's theory is consistent with all the relevant experimental evidence. The article is not about Essen, so Essen's (shall we say) eccentric views (which no reputable publications would accept for refereed publication) are not appropriate for the Wikipedia article about Herbert Dingle. Since Essen's views were rejected by the reputable physics community, Wikipedia policy is to exclude those views from Wikipedia articles as well (except perhaps for an article specifically about Essen, in which case it would obviously be appropriate to state his views).

Now, it's conceivable that some reasonable people might disagree with my edit. Maybe for some reason they think Wikipedia should cite Essen as a reputable source on the experimental verification of special relativity. Regardless of that, I still say my removal of that sentence was in no way an egregious violation of Wikipedia editorial policy. "Be bold", remember? I honestly believe, in good faith, that the sentence was bogus and didn't belong in the article. I edited it out. Then I was blocked from editing the article... for no stated reason other than "edit wars are unpleasant". Removing a statement that I believe is not verifiable under Wiki policy is not conducting an edit war, so that "reason" is a non sequitur. Durova mentioned various ways of excluding statements like "the moon is made of green cheese", but ultimately someone has to actually edit it out of the article. In fact, it will almost certainly be necessary to remove it more than once, given the existence of moon cheese crackpots. I do not think it's appropriate for Wiki Admins to block someone for removing a crackpot statement like that. Wikipedia NEEDS people to recognize crackpot POV and remove it from articles when they find it.

Tim Shuba has commented that the article in question has been totally berserk for months, but whether that is the case or not, I think a review of the page history will show that MY edits have been consistently constructive, informative, providing actual content, and well-supported both by references and by Discussion on the talk page. I have not been "berserk". Reading back through some of the earlier history of the page, I can see examples of where certain other individuals might appear to have gone berserk... but I shall refrain from naming them. The only relevant point here is that I was not berserk... and yet I have been blocked. So, again, it's a non sequitur, and there is no justification for ME being blocked from editing.

Finally, I want to emphasize again that, not only was no rational reason cited for blocking me (because stating a generic fact like "edit wars are annoying" does not constititue a reason for blocking someone who has done nothing other than edit in good faith and in full accord with Wikipedia policies), but I was told that if a DIFFERENT editor refuses to behave reasonably, then *I* will be blocked permanently. Needless to say, I have no control over that other editor, so the Admin's edict is utterly unreasonable and indefensible (in my opinion). No one here has commented on this, but I think it's a legitimate complaint. Clearly the Administrator either mis-spoke himself or... well, I honestly can't think of any other rational explanation.Denveron 21:20, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

It quite clear that by "edit wars are annoying" the blocking admin intended to imply that you had been edit warring, which, after a quick glance at the article history, seems to be an accurate assessment. The 3 revert rule is a limit, not a right. You don't have to violate it for it to count as an edit war. It was a pretty short block, so if I were you I would learn my lesson and move on. If you have a problem with an editor, there are various means of dispute resolution you can try. Edit warring is not one of them. As for the "I'll block you both" comment, blocking one person for another's actions is clearly unacceptable. I would imagine adding "both" to the end of that sentence was a mistake, however if you are blocked purely for someone else's actions, feel free to email me using the "E-mail this user" link and I will unblock you. --Tango 21:48, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

You say a quick glance at the article history leads you to believe I was "edit warring", but can you tell me what constituted the edit warring? I'd be happy to "learn my lesson" (as you put it), but it would be easier if I knew what lesson I'm supposed to be learning. You agree that I didn't violate any specific rule or policy (such as 3rr), but surely there must be some objective criteria for what constitutes edit warring. If it's purely subjective, then the only apparent lesson to be learned here is that someone who edits an article in good faith, working entirely within both the letter and the spirit of all Wikipedia policies and principles, striving within those policies to remove unverifiable original research and novel narratives, can be rudely blocked and threatened with future blocking contingent on the actions of third parties. Is it conceivable (just conceivable) that someone in addition to me has an opportunity of learning a lesson here today?

Look, any time one or more physics cranks sets his sights on a Wikipedia article, there will inevitably be a long series of edits and counter edits before arriving at a stable article. Each time someone inserts the phrase "The moon is made of green cheese" into the article, someone else has to delete it. That's just the way it is. There is no symmetry between the insertion and the deletion. Inserting unverifiable "original research" and "novel narratives" (not to mention copywrite violations, which is another set of things that I've deleted... you're welcome) is itself a violation of Wikipedia policies. Removing those things is not a violation of Wikipedia policies. It's a fine idea for Wiki Admins to block people who are willfully and repeatedly violating policy, but it is not such a fine idea for Admins to block people who are adhering to Wiki policy. That's all I'm trying to say, and I'm surprised that Wiki Admins have such a hard time bringing themselves to agree with that statement. Denveron 23:13, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

It seems counterproductive to block a user, without warning and who has not broken 3RR, for reverting additions of crackpot theories to mainstream science articles. Also, telling an editor that they may not edit an article on threat of being blocked seems to exceed the range of authority for an administrator. The correct administrative action, if any, would be to first warn the users to stop, and consider a page protection to allow the dispute to calm down. Also, treating this as a content dispute that two editors have to work out through consensus seems misguided, perhaps a lack of understanding about physics. Are we really running a wikipedia where it's okay to say that special relativity is unproven? It's pretty obvious when reading the article that the quotation by one fringe theoriest, Essen, disputing the validity of special relativity has no place in an article about another fringe theorist, Dingle. The quotation has nothing to do with Dingle, no importance at all in the context of Dingle's life, and in fact it's out of place gramatically in the article. It's just heaping on a claim that special relativity is unproven. Yes, the long term correct approach would be to use the dispute resolution options in an attempt to make User:Swanzsteve stop adding fringe material. But that takes a lot of work. It's understandable that someone would engage in 2RR to try to get rid of the nonsense and use mediation, AN/I, etc., as a last result. One problem with a block like this: how are we supposed to edit the article? In my reading I feel pretty confident that the sentence in question has to go. I've proposed to delete the sentence about Essen from the Dingle article. Is anyone going to block me for edit warring if I do that? Blocks have a chilling effect. They shut down the editing and consensus process, you know. Wikidemo 22:56, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

The above verbal diarrhoea from Denveron, may give you some idea of the problems he has caused on the Herbert Dingle page. Has he followed the Wiki procedure of contacting the editor who blocked him? No he has gone over his head and complained about the editor, without contacting the editor concerned. A couple of months ago, after a great deal of discussion, the Dingle page became relatively stable, everyone had agreed that Dingle's page was not the appropriate place to discuss SR (which has its own page) or to debate on the page whether or not Dingle was wrong and/or why he was wrong, there was a simple statement at the end of the article "The consensus in the physics community is that Dingle's objections to the logical consistency of special relativity were unfounded", which was a simple statement of fact, to which everyone could agree. There were links to places where people could find further material if they were interested. After 17 days of stability, where we discussing what should be added to the article to improve it, Denveron appeared. His first contribution included these lines "Dingle himself had written about the reciprocity of relativistic effects decades earlier, but when he was reminded of it during his retirement years, he suddenly found himself unable to understand his own earlier explanations.", the clear implication of this is that Dingle was mentally unsound when he started to question Special Relativity. The sole purpose of almost every contribution since has been to denigrate Dingle in any way possible. Perhaps I could illustrate this by giving some examples of his reversions:

The title held by Dingle after 1955 was, "Professor Emeritus of History and Philosophy of Science, University College London", all his publications after 1955 referred to him by this title, including his book "Science at the Crossroads". The statement that Dingle held this title after 1955, was repeatedly reverted by Denveron for no good reason whatsoever.

There was a statement at the end which said "Despite his criticisms of special relativity, Dingle never lost his respect for Einstein's genius.", this quote is from Whitrow's obituary of Dingle, and is supported by several statements from Dingle's book. This was an attempt to show that scientists involved in debates over controversial subjects don't necessarily despise each other. Denveron once again objected to this (properly sourced) statement, and reverted it.

The seemingly harmless factual statement: "He was one of the founders of the British Society for the History of Science, and served as President from 1955 to 1957" was repeatedly reverted.

There is a statement in the article that Dingle was proved wrong by experimental evidence, this is simply not true, I included a quote from Nature by Louis Essen to this effect, this quote was again properly sourced and once again this was summarily reverted as a "crackpot POV". This last reversion is in fact what lead to the recent blocks.

Most of the present article is litle more than a list of people who thought Dingle was wrong and why. Naturally this lead to mayhem in the article with many users (some of whom have been banned as sockpuppets) objecting to the strong ant-Dingle POV within the article. Denveron hasnt done it all on his own, unfortunately some of the other anti-Dingle crowd have joined in and there is now a section on the Lorentz Transformation as well, which is completely unnecessary since there is a already a Wiki page on this. However, Denveron has been the catalyst for the anti-Dingle crowd to crawl out of the woodwork, and stamp their POV on the article.

I hope the admins who are looking at this article will agree that it should return to the previous consensus policy that Dingle's page is not the one to discuss SR, the Lorentz transformation, Dingle's supposed slide into dementia after his retirement. These details can be found elsewhere. - Swanzsteve 03:48, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

What is verbal diarrhoea? Tim Shuba 04:48, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Just one little remark about Swanzsteve's last sentence. SR and the Lorentz transformation are not discussed in the article. Dingle's views about SR and the Lorentz transformation, together with the reasons why these views were and still are not accepted by the physics community, are listed and properly documented, as they should, since that is what Dingle is all about. If he would not have had these views, he would most probably not have had an article here to begin with.

It is of course to be expected that for a person who fails to understand SR and the Lorentz transformation, it superficially looks as if the subjects themselves are being discussed. After all, how could such a person possibly tell the difference? DVdm 09:52, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

This begs the question, as to why you want to include, what you (or another of the anti-Dingle mob) have referred to a "trivial 4th grade algebra", in the article.

BTW the ability to copy from textbooks would not normally be classed as "understanding":-) - Swanzsteve 02:37, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

To clarify - the statement that I would block both Denveron and Swanzsteve again should either misbehave was an error on my part. That was not my intention, and I apologize for the discomfort that this clearly caused. DS 13:09, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I think some additional clarification is needed. Here's what happened: An editor inserted a blatent crank POV passage into the article, stating that special relativity is not supported by experimental evidence. Needless to say, there is an abundance of highly reputable sources that say otherwise. I took the following actions: (1) I removed the inappropriate POV passage, and (2) I patiently presented in the Discussion page a clear and detailed explanation of why that quotation from Essen's letter to the editor was not suitable for the article, and why it was not a reputable source. The other editor then immediately re-inserted the passage, with a remark like "Stop vandalizing the article by removing sourced quotations!". None of the reasons that I carefully presented for why the passage should be removed were addressed by the other editor. I thereupon removed the passage for a SECOND time from the article. That's it.

I then received, totally without warning, a rudely expressed notification that I was blocked, along with threats of future action to be taken against me (as quoted previously). The message basically said three things: (1) I am blocked for a day, (2) I will remain blocked until I reach agreement with a physics crackpot on how the article should look, and (3) if the physics crackpot doesn't behave himself, I will be blocked forever.

I'm happy to see that point (3) has now been disavowed. However, my contention is that points (1) and (2) were equally erroneous. I suggest that the Wiki Admins review the Wikipedia policy on "original research" and how to deal with physics cranks. The futility of trying to "reason" with physics cranks is fully recognized. (If they could be reasoned with, they wouldn't be cranks.) Therefore, the policy of Wikipedia is not to argue with cranks about whether something is true or false, but simply to insist that only material from reputable sources be included in the articles. Of course, the cranks will not accept this, but then the other Wiki rules (such as 3rr, etc) come into play. Now, it's clear that point (2) in Dragonfly's message is inconsistent with Wikipedia policy. It makes no more sense than point (3). No editor can be held responsible for the mis-behavior of any other editor. Both points (2) and (3) of Dragonfly's message imply that as long as the other editor continues being a physics crank, attempting to insert crackpot POV material into the article (and assuming I continue to want to uphold Wikipedia policies by not including that crackpot material), I will be banned forever from editing the article. This is simply unreasonable and indefensible, and totally contrary to Wikipedia policies.

As for point (1), I've already recounted my actions, which I believe were consistent with both the letter and the spirit of Wikipedia policies. All my edits have been fully documented and justified in the Discussion page, and no rules (such as 3rr) have even come CLOSE to be violated (at least by me). So I contend that point (1) was also erroneous, i.e., I should never have been blocked in the first place. (I have asked specifically here on this Incident page for someone to tell me which of my actions or edits constituted "edit warring", but have gotten no answer... which isn't surprising, since none of my actions constituted "edit warring".)

As it stands, I'm in limbo. I really can't edit any more, because any edits I would wish to make would be in accord with Wikipedia policy, which is precisely what I was doing when I was blocked the first time. Is there some way of "taking this up the line", to see if we can get a definitive ruling, one way or the other? The main question is, should I be (in effect) banned forever, as point (2) of Dragonfly's message implies? The secondary question is whether I should have ever been blocked in the first place (point 1).Denveron 21:16, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Denveron - you use these phrases:-

"original research"

"only material from reputable sources be included in the articles"

"insert crackpot POV material"

in relation to a quote from Nature, its pretty clear who is the crackpot here!

BTW - just because you are anti-Dingle doesnt make you any less of a crackpot. - Swanzsteve 01:59, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

This shouldn't be such a problem. But it seems from what I can read that the POV pushers are the ones that aren't getting blocked. The POV in question is that Dingle was wrong. Those that are trying to push this POV are being assisted by some of the administrators, while those that are trying to keep the article neutral are getting blocked.

There was a suggestion in the talk pages that the article might borrow some ideas on wording from the Eric Laithwaite article. The proposer of this idea has since been blocked.

It is sufficient to state that Dingle failed to persuade the physics community that he was right. But when writing about a dissident it is totally unreasonable to use establishment viewpoints published in peer reviewed journals as definitive proof that the dissident in question was wrong. This is what the anti-Dingle POV pushers have been doing. Those that have been opposing them have been subjected to endless allegations of being crackpots and vandals.

For example the Keating-Hafele experiment has been used as proof that Dingle was wrong. When others tried to use Louis Essen as evidence that the Keating-Hafele experiment was unreliable, they were immediately dismissed as pushing a crackpot viewpoint and their legitimate sources were deleted.

This kind of edit warring would not occur if anti-Dingle editors would leave the article alone in a comparable state to that of the Eric Laithwaite article. I could go to the Eric Laithwaite article and firmly state that Laithwaite was wrong because Goldstein's classical mechanics textbook explains gyroscopes perfectly. But that would hardly be cricket. It would be like saying that the establishment are right because the establishmenet say they are right. Cyril Reid 20:49, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Keating and Hafele weren't crackpots, whereas Louis Essen... well... "No one has attempted to refute my arguments, but I was warned that if persisted I was likely to spoil my career prospects." Please keep things in perspective and note that the number of relativity crackpots is much larger than the number of gyroscope crackpots. I'm sure that you, and most electric engineers, don't really belong to the latter. DVdm 22:13, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I see no Wiki list of confirmed crackpots, who under no circumstances should be quoted on any wiki page. The fact that you characterise them as a crackpot is neither here nor there. The only criterion as far as I can see is that if their quote has appeared in a reputable peer-reviewed journal, then you are entitled to include it in the article, as long as it is relevant, which in this case it is. Under these circumstances you are not entitled to revert it, unless you want to be accused of starting an edit war. ---Swanzsteve 02:15, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I posted 4 examples above of statements that Denveron reverted without discussion, I could include more. The reversion of sourced facts is actually AGAINST Wiki guidelines.

I would like the admins to consider the above 4 statements and ask Denveron to justify their reversion, removing them without discussion is clearly vandalism, and constitutes STARTING an edit war.

The views of DVdm and Tim Shuba should taken with a huge pinch of salt, since they were complicit in Denveron's vandalism of the page, when Denveron was in danger of exceeding his reversion limit they would jump in and revert for him, they actually discuss this tactic, at one point, on the talk pages. Their views are similar to his own, they are in favour of linking Dingle's article to pages which describe him as suffering from dementia, and insult him.

Nature can hardly described as containing "fringe" material as alleged above, and the quote from Essen can hardly be described as "crackpot POV", especially as his statement is correct, perhaps the anti-Dingle crowd could read it carefully before they dismiss it.

A paragraph about the Lorentz Transformation is clearly superfluous, since it has its own Wiki page, and need only be linked.

My own "crackpot POV" is that Dingle's page should not misrepresent him, should not insult him (see the repeat reference to his retirement, which is intended to show he was past it, I tried to remove this but again was reverted) and should not be bogged down with in-depth discussions of Dingle's arguments, refutations, SR, LT since all these are covered in detail on other Wiki pages and in the external links. Unfortunately, the ant-Dingle crackpots are determined to drag his name through the mud. As long as this page is used to discredit Dingle, I'm pretty sure it is going to be the scene of repeated edit wars.

If you have any doubts that Denveron is the cause of the edit wars, trace the history of the simple statement in the article "after 1955 Dingle became 'Professor Emeritus' of History and Philosophy at University of London". Even Wwoods who wants to include statements alleging dementia, asked Denveron to stop reverting this sentence. ---Swanzsteve 01:33, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

In case someone might have missed it, just a repetition of a remark made earlier, with some emphasis added. SR and the Lorentz transformation are not discussed in the article. Dingle's views about SR and the Lorentz transformation, together with the reasons why these views were and still are not accepted by the physics community, are listed and properly documented, as they should, since that is what Dingle is all about. If he would not have had these views, he would most probably not have had an article here to begin with. It is of course to be expected that for a person who fails to understand SR and the Lorentz transformation, it superficially looks as if the subjects themselves are being discussed. After all, how could such a person possibly tell the difference?

But I think this should be discussed on the article's talk page. DVdm 08:46, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

There seems to be too much of a liberty on the part of the ones pushing the anti-Dingle POV to refer to anti-relativists as crackpots or to assume that anti-relativists don't fully understand relativity. It all points to young undergraduate insecurity. Why are they trying so hard to persuade us all that Dingle was wrong? Or are they just trying to persuade themselves?

Denveron and DVdm are clearly not yet mature enough to be editing encyclopaedia articles. DVdm exposes his obsession by using his own user page to present what he believes to be a proof that Dingle was wrong. Cyril Reid 12:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

User:69.122.155.216

69.122.155.216 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has shown time and time again that his/her only purpose here is to vandalise Mighty Morphin Power Rangers: The Movie, A Goofy Movie, as well as other related articles. He/she has been blocked twice now (once for 24 hours, once for a week), but has recently returned again, up to his/her old tricks here. JPG-GR 18:37, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Final warning has been given. He will be blocked if he persists. — Edokter • Talk • 19:47, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

User:Cardsplayer4life

Hello, I have been making some really positive edits, mainly dealing with tagging trivia sections and such. However, the said user has reverted all my hard work into finding some of these trivia/miscellaneous sections and keeps taking the tags off. I feel that these tags are valid, yet they keep getting removed because the section isn't explicitly titled trivia, although the sections I am tagging are long laundry lists full of unimportant facts/info. I have spent a lot of time reverting the tags back, so that other users will notice the sections and try to integrate/weed out the info and make better articles. I am a good editor, and I feel I am helping the site out a lot, I just wish I didn't have to keep reverting the tags back. I am doing nothing wrong, just trying to help the project. Thank you. 75.5.225.151 19:53, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, I see that he has removed a ton of the trivia tags you put, without any explanation on your talk page, which isn't right. He did give you a warning about the removal of text at The More You Know (which I actually agree with and have cut down a bit). I do wish you would have responded on his talk page first though, saying that you were removing trivia sections, instead of immediately coming here. I've notified him but I'm doubtful anything major will come out of it as this looks purely like a content dispute that doesn't require admin help. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:46, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, at first I just thought it was like a lot of anonymous IPs and messing around with stuff (which I was trying to fix). I put a warning message on his talk page over the removal of content. I actually don't have as much of a problem with the tags (although some of them are really ridiculous, and are on lists that are very straightforward and not trivia at all) as much as I do with the removal of content that is taking place. If he wants to willy-nilly tag stuff as trivia whether it is or not, then I won't interfere any more with it, but if he continues to remove content, then I have a big problem with it. I won't continue to monitor him though, so he can do whatever he wants, but he is not "helping the site out a lot" (sic) with his actions. And, yes, Mr. Anonymous IP, please talk to me on my talk page (or on your talk page, either one), and I am sure we can come to some kind of understanding. The admins have more important things to do with their time than deal with this silliness. (Cardsplayer4life 22:56, 27 October 2007 (UTC))

Didn't we just go through something like this over popular culture section deletions? I don't think it's particularly helpful to mass-tag a bunch of popular culture sections as trivia, but the tag is harmless. It can be removed by anyone who disagrees, but it probably shouldn't be removed if there's a valid concern of unsourced trivia. In that regard, I think you (Cards4life) went a little too far by reverting them all and then the anonymous editor went too far again by reverting. We shouldn't have a revert war over maintenance tags. I spot checked and about half or a little more of the applications were good; the others were simply not trivia. Popular culture is not the same thing as trivia, and when an article is about a popular culture subject, then its effect on popular culture is utterly relevant - though not all of the facts are always worth mentioning. Deleting popular culture material simply because it's popular culture is misguided. I would only delete things that clearly don't add to the understanding of the subject. If something is unsourced but clearly verifiable, then source it. Likewise, if it's in the wrong section or article, move it. Simple, really. Wikidemo 00:23, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Obviously I agree. Like I said, I think this whole thing is silly and I am on to more fruitful edits that actually improve the place. If you guys want to go on with this silly back and forth, go ahead. Just keep the mass removal of content down is all I ask. Cardsplayer4life 01:02, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Proposed 0RR on Northern Cyprus

An (apparently Greek Cypriot) editor, 3meandEr (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), has recently been edit-warring heavily on Northern Cyprus to attempt to impose an extremely partisan text which is - as he himself has put it - a "condemnation" of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. The article is, at the best of times, a minefield and a mecca for edit warriors. I locked the article a few days ago to stop the edit war and attempted to work out the issues on Talk:Northern Cyprus. However, it's become clear that 3meandEr is a classic single-purpose POV-pusher - he's a new editor, has never edited anything other than Northern Cyprus and the article talk page, and has either no understanding of or intention to apply NPOV. Consequently I propose to unprotect the article and adopt a Dmcdevit solution. In essence, this means 0RR and blocks for unproductive edit warriors - given his conduct so far, I think there's a high likelihood of needing to block 3meandEr as a result. Does anyone have any views on this approach? Comments to Talk:Northern Cyprus#Please dont change the subject please. :-) -- ChrisO 00:31, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I find Dmcdevit thoughts very practical and much more adapted to realities. It is a big step forward to enhance and defend the project. There are more edit wars than discussions at talk pages. Users who "condemn" are naturally violating WP:NPOV. If those violations happen so often then the 0RR is just better than protecting. Why protect an article where there are only 2 or 3 people "fighting" each other? Why tell readers that we are sorry because some people are shouting inside the house. We must let our visitors come in while keeping order inside. No hijacking. So I support your plan. I am not sure though how long it would last and that's why keeping it indefinite would be appropriate. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 03:22, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I think it's a bad idea. A "0RR" hurts productive editors far more than it hurts a POV-pushing SPA. If this editor is a POV-pushing SPA you can come up with a community-based article ban. The reason the 3RR applies to editors and not articles is that it protects against POV-pushers. A 0RR creates motivation is exactly the opposite direction...all you need to do is go to an internet cafe, or email a friend, anything like that. Sure, an IP is blocked (or a throw-away account), but then your version is in place and no one can change it. Any novel solution needs to keep article integrity in place.

If the article has been locked and discussion has come to consensus, then unblock it. If there's a POV-pushing SPA who refuses to abide, then limit that person's ability to edit. Don't create a situation which rewards SPAs and POV-pushers. Guettarda 03:50, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I would agree with Guettarda. We have enough tools to deal disruptive editors when is needed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:52, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I see that 3meandEr block log to be sparkling clean. If he is such a disruptive editor, no actions have been taken yet to entice him/her to behave. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:55, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

As Dmcedvit well says it: Remember that a short block is a psychological blow, not a final solution (Premise #5). Protection is not a solution to a behavior problem either. Applying repeated short blocks for unrelenting misconduct is nothing more than toleration. If it doesn't work, don't do it again. The only solution to an incorrigible behavior problem is a long-term block. Blocks escalate not primarily because that is the best way to change behavior, but because in the case that behavior does not change, it results in the most productive outcome: the unproductive editor being blocked from editing. Wikipedia is very accommodating to good faith editors: but it does not have the resources to provide anger management therapy; Wikipedia is more productive concentrating its efforts on editors that show a willingness to develop cluefulness.

Unprotect, get the user blocked if deserving it and escalate the blocks if needed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:59, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Guettarda and Jossi. Block the user if he deserves it. 3RR is a standard but not the only one. I have no problem blocking someone who is here doing nothing other than wasting other's time and energy. Has 3meanadEr shown any inclination to explain himself, back down, negotiate or otherwise actually have a discussion? If not, block him, ignore him and go on; punishing everyone and changing the rules for one POV warrior is not the answer. Make it clear that he and his kind are not tolerated. It is possible have a POV that is against consensus; just when you refuse to compromise in any manner, then you aren't tolerated here. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:04, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd say 1RR can still be effective. Why would someone need to revert more than once a day? In any way, they would only do the same thing twice or more. They can just do it once in case of major edit warring like this one. It is well known to everybody that is just a waste of time. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 04:44, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, everyone, for the advice. In reply to Jossi's implicit question about whether "actions have been taken yet to entice him/her to behave", I've been trying to mediate on the article talk page and explain the requirements of NPOV etc, but there's no sign that 3meandEr either understands or accepts the concept of neutrality. I'm conscious of Dmcdevit's comments that "consistently responding to an editor's edit warring ... with protections does nothing to prevent the behavior", hence the search for an alternative way forward. I'll try unprotecting the page and leaving a warning/suggestion on 3meandEr's talk page with regard to his conduct. -- ChrisO 09:42, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

My take on this kind of problem: if it's just a single POV-pusher, block. If it's two parties on a reasonably narrowly circumscribed issue of dispute and they seem rational enough to work out an understanding if given time, protect. If it's multiple users and a long-term dispute with little prospect of cooperation, adopt not exactly 0RR but some variant of the set of restrictions Moreschi and I have tried in such cases: not "no reverts at all", but "no reverts without prior discussion", rv moratorium (reverts only after so many hours), and a few other restrictions taylored to the case as need may be. (see here and here). Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:53, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

If the parties are reasonable enough to work it out, why can't we expect them to be reasonable enough to avoid edit warring? I have not investigated the edits here, but the line between "POV pushing" and a good-faith content dispute is often quite thin, and claims of "vandalism" or "POV pushing" are often used to justify edit warring in content disputes.

"No reverts at all" is only a reasonable solution to stop an already-started edit war. Once the edit war is stopped, switching to something like 1RR is a good idea. I would support both. — Carl (CBM · talk) 12:26, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Beware the Vandalbot

Just a heads up, there's a vandalbot using open proxies which has been very active recently. Examples: 81.201.58.55 (talk · contribs), 80.190.245.164 (talk · contribs), 208.48.253.137 (talk · contribs), 140.128.20.205 (talk · contribs), 213.85.226.110 (talk · contribs), 69.227.233.133 (talk · contribs). Please keep an eye out for this very distinctive type of edit and block (or report to AIV) on sight. Thanks. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 03:39, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

• 66.210.246.144 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
• 217.66.212.2 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
• 59.14.174.100 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)

A few more. MER-C 09:44, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Those three now blocked and one that I blocked earlier as a simple vandal now has an extended block. WODUP ^(?) 09:58, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I've just blocked the following:

• 192.18.100.7 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
• 85.97.7.231 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)

Hut 8.5 10:39, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

THe same one (or one very like it) has been targetting the Literate programming wiki too. -- Derek Ross | Talk 17:17, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't look like it should be too hard to program our anti-vandal bots to detect this. Has anyone contacted their maintainers yet? —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 17:52, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Update: I've now got an IRC bot grepping the recentchanges feed for suspicious edits. Just caught 218.110.80.138 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) that way. Working on a HTTP front end to do automatic reporting and reverting. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 19:26, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Also 204.90.101.71 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), which curiously has some valid recent edits. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 20:33, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I now have a very quickly written antivandalbot running as Apostrobot (talk · contribs) (an old account I'd previously registered for a different bot project). I don't think it's going to run amok, but do keep an eye on it... —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 01:37, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Cross wiki phenomena for what it's worth, been very active on en wb, en wq & Commons in exactly the same way, probably elsewhere --Herby ^{talk thyme} 10:45, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone have a bot or other automation that doesn't require a recent changes feed to IRC, and doesn't require using the API? Two small non WMF wikis I help out at are being hit by this (as are many others we are not aware of I am sure) and setting up an IRC feed or changing the installation to enable the API may be beyond their maintainers skill levels. I wrote some crude perl code (with some considerable help from Eagle_101, thanks!!!) that helps me revert and block more quickly but it still requires a human to look at things. Thanks. ++Lar: t/c 12:13, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Edit request for Jenin (and others)

Hi, I'm wondering if an uninvolved admin would be willing to implement the small editing agreement at Talk:Battle of Jenin as listed among the protected edit requests. Incidentally, the backlog includes another dozen requested edits, though I can only vouch for the acceptability of the Jenin request. Thanks muchly, HG | Talk 05:47, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Dozens of bad-quality edits as a result of a coursework assignment

It seems that a lecturer/tutor at Macquarie University has set his students an assignment which involves adding contributions to Wikipedia (see page 25 of this).

In recent days, this has resulted in large numbers of bad-quality, unsourced, POV essay-like edits from multiple new accounts (all containing "mas214" in the username); see e.g. the following edit histories: [21], [22], [23]. (There are too many affected articles to list them all here...)

This was originally suspected as sockpuppetry, hence User:Icairns reported it here: Wikipedia:Suspected_sock_puppets/TUMAS214; this report contains a list of the accounts involved (20 so far).

Any ideas on how to deal with this? Using Wikipedia as a testbench as part of a coursework assignment is just bad form; should we contact the tutor involved?

Regards, Oli Filth^(talk) 16:26, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I think we should just treat them as normal editors, explaining how they can improve the quality of their contributions. A.Z. 16:29, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

My guess would be that these particular students will never use these accounts again, hence, will never read their talk pages, etc. But this problem will recur every time this course is run, which is why I suggest that the tutor be contacted. Oli Filth^(talk) 16:35, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

(ec) Tried that. The problem is they disappear as soon as they're done with their work, and none have them have tried to talk to any of us. The main problem, I think, is the root of this -- they're writing essays to put into wiki articles, which just isn't kosher because essays are POV'd almost by definition. I think the professor needs to understand and explain to the students that they should be adding cited facts, not essays. If they do that then this would be a great way to have the encyclopedia improved once a semseter. Gscshoyru 16:36, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

edit conflict — The response depends in part on what the assignment was, I think. This could be used as a learning experience in the area of collaborative working or the value of business rules (only using the term as it's generic = specifications for action and contribution) as part of an information product. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 16:33, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

It's easy to give into the temptation of blocking the users and forgetting about it, but that's not really in the spirit of Wikipedia. I believe we should contact the course tutor and tell them that Wikipedia is free- they can make their own copy of relevant articles and host them on their own server for people to add to. Or if the tutor insists their students should add to Wikipedia, we should inform them they'll keep getting blocked and reverted if they don't follow our policies. --Deskana (talk) 16:54, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how they are any different than other new users who don't understand what we are about. 1 != 2 16:57, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Because the individual users are transient. It's the fact that they're being "forced" by a tutor to edit en masse. In effect, it's organised vandalism (albeit non-malicious). Oli Filth^(talk) 17:01, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Agree with the "forced" comment - this would appear to not be a voluntary editing activity. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 17:03, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Deskana, and the forced comment -- and additionally, Until, the other major difference is that they post what they need to and then disappear, and never see the comments we leave them. Gscshoyru 17:12, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Posting and leaving is common amongst new users. It is a good idea to contact the university, but I don't think these users pose any sort of unique challenge to us. 1 != 2 17:29, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

This is true. However, it theoretically has the possibility of becoming a constructive source of content. Which is why... we should contact the instructor. I think we're all agreed on the "contact the instructor part." Gscshoyru 17:33, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, like all new users they have a tremendous potential to add to Wikipedia. We also have the opportunity to influence their behavior and expectations before they edit and never come back which is a good thing. 1 != 2 17:43, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

• I see the problem as he essentialy lets his students loose after telling them "here's how you create an account, here's how you edit, now go wild". If the assigment did at least mention ever so briefly, say, if I can only choose two, at least wp:npov and wp:v... I think that properly handled, these assignments could potentially be a positive contribution to wikipedia. Does anybody know if he himself is a wikipedia editor?--victor falk 17:46, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

As a professor, this whole thing intrigues me. I was thinking of having my students next semester do an assignment where they had to add one cited sentence to a relevant wikipedia article. Is this not welcome? I think an assignment like this could benefit both wikipedia and the students. Or is it just an issue with the specific assignment? Rangek 18:41, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Whilst it has the potential to be useful, I think that in all probability, forcing a bunch of newbie editors to go round making edits may result in more harm than good. The above is an example of this! From the professor's point of view, I don't understand how this could make a good assignment; why does it have to involve editing a public website? What's wrong with normal essays? If the students get an essay wrong, no-one else has to sort out the mess. Oli Filth^(talk) 18:48, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

It is much easier to grade 200 sentences added to wikipedia than it is to grade 200 2-3 page essays. Plus, I would hope that if the student added nonsense to wikipedia the professor would revert it as they graded it. (Eliminating or at least minimizing the "someone else sorting out the mess" aspect.) Also, I would think it a public service to add a hundred or so cited, relevant, sentences to wikipedia. Scholarship (even in this most modest form) should be shared, not just relegated to the classroom. I also think that it would make the students work harder, since their work will be "in the public eye". Rangek 18:57, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

With no disrepect intended, if 200 essays is too much work, then why not get the students to each hand a sentence in on a piece of paper? Regarding the "professor reverting", as we've just seen, inevitably that's not what would happen. In this case it took 3 or 4 editors to figure out what was going on and try to undo 2 weeks' worth of damage. And unless the prof happens to be an experienced Wiki editor, they're probably not in the best position to judge what is/isn't appropriate for Wiki. I agree that scholarship shouldn't be consigned to the classroom, but at the same time, Wikipedia isn't a testbed for experimentation and foul-ups that professors should be falling back on to save themselves some effort. If the students' work is good enough, then add it once it's been graded! Oli Filth^(talk) 19:28, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I think you've hit on something here. It could be some kind of wikiproject maybe? If mentored properly it could be a great way of fostering good editors. Here's some interesting info Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2006-12-26/Wikipedia and academia Just a caveat: I'm afraid it could increase the risk of articles becoming academic instead of encyclopedic.--victor falk 20:28, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Under Wikipedia:School_and_university_projects#Suggested_exercises there seems to be a project just like I was thinking of doing, i.e., having students add cited sentences to wikipedia articles. I don't think we have to worry about "articles becoming 'academic' instead of 'encyclopedic'" with contriubutions from an introductory level class. Rangek 23:25, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Would it be worth making some kind of an effort to track all these university-lead edits? I know that a friend of mine has a similar assignment task at his university, involving editing wikipedia. Although this has some potential to really improve wikipedia, i do wonder if we should compile a list of known assignment tasks and which topics they cover, to help us keep an eye out for a flood of bad edits. As a side note, does this in a way fall under the category of meatpuppets? Hugzz 00:02, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

As you folks have eventually found, the question of how to deal with students, professors and assignments in Wikipedia is not new. I was one of the folks who kicked this off in 2003, and as you can see from the above page it can be pulled off successfully. I hope you will not go with your earlier sentiment and try to prevent this type of dynamic from happening. Professors need to give good guidelines and learn about the Wikipedia community culture, rather than just telling students, "Go wild," but you should know it can be done well. As to the earlier comment by Oli Filth, despite what you'd think, grading stuff on Wikipedia is about 5x harder than grading individual handed-in assignments. Think of tracking what account is what student, doing all the diffs, figuring out the quality of an edit versus others, et al. -- Fuzheado | Talk 00:21, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:List of public terminal or wireless access point IP addresses

Just letting you know about the above page. It's not redundant to a category as it can help with Wikipedia:Abuse reports as well, and is a useful guide for any admin.

Feel free to leave feedback on the talk page: I'd appreciate that. --Solumeiras ^talk 17:27, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

My watchlist (Laleena)

I have been getting titles on my my watchlist that I know for a fact I did not put there, such as HAGGER????????????????????, which I did not know of before this. Could someone please help? I am frightened that someone might be doing this to me, though I do a lot of vandal patrol. Thanks for the good work, Laleena 18:47, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

A vandal was moving pages around. When you have a page on your watchlist that get moved elsewhere, the moved names start showing up there. It has nothing to do with an attack on you personally. —David Eppstein 18:50, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

New problems at Transnistria

User:ClockworkOrange made huge POV edit to the article and refuses to discuss them first at the talk. Since he's essencially a one-purpose account (his contribs) certain suspicions arise. Could this be checked and dealt with? Alæxis_¿question? 20:28, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

:: Can't log in ... I know why, but cannot fix it :::

Resolved

This is KoshVorlon (a check of the IP address will confirm this, as I have used only two IP's to log in!). I am unable to log in because I have called a script (common.js) from monobook.js. Apparently, the coding doesn't work well with the other working scripts in my monobook directory. Can I have an admin delete the importScript('xxx:Common.js') line out of my monobook.js. Thansk ! (BTW - if this is the wrong place - please let me know as I'll check this section and will move it to the correct department upon request! ) 66.151.41.1 22:29, 28 October 2007 (UTC) The un-logged in KoshVorlon We are all Kosh

Done. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:34, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/THF-DavidShankBone Dismissed

The above named Arbitration case was dismissed due to the inactivity of one of the participants.

For the Arbitration Committee, - Penwhale | ^{Blast him / Follow his steps} 22:46, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Removing backlinks to deleted articles

Maxim (talk · contribs) spent some time today removing backlinks to articles that had been deleted because of expired PRODs. However, some of the removals were from User space, WikiProject space, and AfD space. Is this considered acceptable? It seems to me that this sort of thing should be confined to mainspace. Thanks.--uɐɔlnʌɟoʞǝɹɐs 01:37, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Have you raised it with him first? Generally, you only come here if discussion on user pages fails. Daniel 02:46, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I figured I should find out whether it's a problem or not before I start arguing the point.--uɐɔlnʌɟoʞǝɹɐs 02:53, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I suggest not. Looking at this example, that is a clean-up list where it would be useful to have a redlink to click on to find out what happened to the article. The alternative is to copy the delinked name to the search bar or browser URL window, which is inconvencing the person who made that list. Also, if ever there is a problem with a deletion, it helps to be able to check "what links here" for deleted articles to find out where it was discussed. Short answer, only remove from mainspace. Carcharoth 09:30, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism in Ezhava(protected) Article?

User:Ricky81682 is removing refered content from ezhava article. i have added a sample a sample of that below with reference. Ref2 can be varified online and this book content is available throuigh google books. please look into this.Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 05:12, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

A sample

The Ezhavas form a major progressive community, and also one of the largest in Kerala, a south Indian state. They have made a mark in the economic and political panorama of the state and have contributed enormously to the literature and culture of the state. They are also found amongst the Malayalee diaspora around the world. They are a social group sharing a common history from the pre-social reform era, when caste was an integral part of the political, economic, legal, and social order across the Kerala State.

Folklore and written records show that Ezhavas were a martial class. The folk songs, Vadakkan Pattukal, composed about 400 hundred years ago, are full of descriptions of the military exploits of Ezhava heroes. Ezhavas served in the armed forces of all important kings of the region, such as Zamorins of Calicut, and the Kings of Travancore and Cochin. Many from community became Kottaram Vaidyan(Palace Physician) of important kings in the region. They enjoyed better status before the arrival of the brahmins from north. Historically, they never found a place in the four-tier caste system of hinduism. They were engaged in many professions, and many were warriors, ayurvedic physicians, astrologers, arrack brewers, traders, roddy Tappers, spiritualists, traditional toxicologists, devil worshipers and dancers, sorcerers, farmers, and weavers. The Ezhavas are also known as Thiyyas or Billavas in some of part of Kerala especially Malabar areas.

Ref

All the above content is varifiable form online book available googlebook.(see the link) The book also list other references. But the editor User:Ricky81682 has removed most of the refered content. Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 05:23, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I hate this. The vast majority of that content has been moved two paragraphs down [24]. The article has been fully protected since the 19th (due to massive edit warring). I've been trying on the talk page and even going to the specific user talk pages of people who were edit warring to get them to talk. After nobody complains for days, I removed some unsourced text. Part of the reason was the way people were completely misrepresenting entire citations (wanting to add an entire paragraph by quoting an entire book because a singular footnote has a slight mention of one partial point) which drove me nuts. This is purely a content dispute. The article was protected by User:Nishkid64 who I asked for advice from [25]. I am just trying to control this article. If any other admins want to help out, please join in. If people think there's some crazy bias I've got, then I'll leave it alone. I'd consider semi-protecting the article but it looks like the edit warring is nowhere near over. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:39, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Note, my first edit to the talk page [26] was two days after the protection: I removed a editprotected article request because there was nowhere near a consensus on what people wanted. I didn't even touch the article for another three days to do this non-controversial edit. Next was the movement of text above. Notice that when I started, there were five different citations to the exact same page of text. If you actually read the Smith page, you will see that the only thing the article is good for is the statement "The folk songs, Vadakkan Pattukal, composed about 400 hundred years ago, are full of descriptions of the military exploits of Ezhava heroes" (particularly ironic that's the only thing not using that cite) which I have defended on the talk page. No good deed indeed. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:58, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Ricky showing my mistake. i have actually thought you have removed the content. I am sorry for that. and Taking back my allegation.Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 06:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I just want to add to what Ricky has said. I was working on this article before it was protected. I faced numerous accusations of "vandalism" (because I dared to clean up the article) and even sockpuppetry. An admin had to tell this editor that it was "content dispute" and not "vandalism". The article was in bad shape. It was full of OR, POV, peacock terms, grammatical errors, and spelling mistakes. It was far from objective and had very little by way of references. Ricky came into this article to try and improve it, and he has. We've all been having a rather good discussion in the talk page regarding this article and we've been giving our feedback regarding his changes. Like he said, he has informed other involved users of his changes and has invited them to participate in the discussion. I did the exact same thing when I edited the article. I discussed my changes in the talk page and I invited this editor to discuss the changes. Instead, all I got was a revert war. Now he goes and makes accusation of vandalism and claims that Ricky is abusing his privileges. This is absolutely ridiculous. I think this adequately demonstrates the fact that the editors who are accusing Ricky don't actually care about improving the article. It's simply called "pushing POV". I initially tried to show a lot of good faith to this editor because I saw that he had a lot of information and that he was very active on Wikipedia. This editor seems to run afoul of numerous policies regarding his article, especially WP:CITE, WP:NOR, WP:V, and more importantly (as it seems to be in this case) WP:OWN. Like Ricky said, large paragraphs are justified using just one citation that marginally describes something related to the issue. For example, this editor created a few articles that were sorely lacking references. I added the appropriate tags on them and even asked him to add more information and expand the articles with references. Instead, the tags were reverted and I was asked to "refer to the Ezhava article". There is a clear pattern of behaviour here. In conclusion, I just want to say that Ricky has been doing a great job. He hasn't been abusing his privileges. He hasn't taken sides, and what he is doing is certainly not vandalism. --vi5in^[talk] 06:23, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Vivin thanks for the comment. I have accepted my mistakes which i have committed unintentionally. and been always like that. please dont allege that i have refused to comment/rejected comments of my edits or your edits. If i have removed any tags(WP:CITE, WP:NOR, WP:V) i might also removed the content that forced you to put the tags. cheers Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 06:48, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Format.bot

I came upon Format.bot (talk · contribs) tonight, and there is no mention of any authorization or owner, so it is indefinitely blocked (the first two pages it hit were Jimbo's archives doing spellchecking).—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 08:17, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Weird. The other day I had a similar case with AwardBot (talk · contribs). Again, seemingly innocuous work but no disclosure of who was behind it. Some kind of serial troll? Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:47, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Delays in undeleting pages

I have become too familiar with undeleting a page and the edits involved spending a long time in limbo between disappearing from the deleted edits list and appearing in the non-deleted edits list. So far that has been with undeletes which contain many edits.

But this appeared in Wikipedia:Cut and paste move repair holding pen:

Agonia was c&p'd to Agonia (film) by a brand new Wikipedian and replaced with a disamb page. Also, since I don't have the Move tab yet, Agonia (film 1969) would be better titled as Agonia (1969 film). Ravenna1961 05:44, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

So I did this:

• 06:41, 29 October 2007 I deleted Agonia
• 06:42, 29 October 2007 I deleted Agonia (film) "temp for histmerge"
• 06:42, 29 October 2007 I restored all but the last edit of Agonia "7 revision(s) restored: get back re movie, leave the disambig"
• 06:43, 29 October 2007 I moved Agonia to Agonia (film) to histmerge
  • OK so far
• 06:43, 29 October 2007 I restored the disambig edit of Agonia: (1 revision(s) restored)
  • Here that one edit stayed in limbo around half an hour between disappearing from the deleted edits list and appearing in the non-deleted edits list.
• 07:24, 29 October 2007 I restored Agonia (film) to histmerge
• 07:28, 29 October 2007 I moved Agonia (film) to Agonia (2006 film)

Why such a long delay in undeleting, although it was early morning here by British time, when (by my experience) the internet is fastest because most Americans are asleep? Anthony Appleyard 09:47, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I interpreted you well: if you're referring to the fact that "deleted edits" don't reappear in the history after restoration, I experience it all the time, so I'm used to it. If I really need to be sure that what I'm seeing is accurate, a minor or null edit usually helps. Duja► 10:09, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

The page history has caching problems immediately after an undelete, and shows incorrect data until the page's next edit (in my experience). I normally get round the problem by using rollback on the null edit that was created during the page rename (which has the advantage of often also causing the correct version to become the current version). --ais523 10:12, 29 October 2007 (UTC)