Talk:Afghanistan

Weblink Update

URL changed: Please update the link to the following picture gallery

http://asiapolis.perspektive89.com/gallery - Pictures from Kabul and Afghanistan => NEW Link: http://foto.perspektive89.com Mario Behling (talk) 22:15, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

State of Afghanistan emerged in 1880

According to Anwar-ul-Haq Ahady (a Pashtun himself and the head of Afghan Mellat) the state of Afghanistan emerged in 1880 under Abdur Rahman Khan, not during the Ahmad Shah Durrani era as this article claims. See Ahady's article:

The Decline of the Pashtuns in Afghanistan, Anwar-ul-Haq Ahady, Asian Survey, Vol. 35, No. 7. (Jul., 1995), pp. 621-634.

Why is Afghani not listed as a demonym in info-box?

Afghani is another commonly used demonym. A Google search for Afghani gives 2,260,000 results, so obviously it is a commonly used term. It is also listed in dictionaries as a native or inhabitant of Afghanistan (link).

The term is used for the currency so the google hits are not that meaningful. Also, only one dictionary said "inhabitant of Afghanistan" the rest said its the currency. --MarsRover (talk) 17:47, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I've done another Google search excluding the word "currency" and I ended up getting even more results (3,080,000 Google search results for Afghani - excluding the word "currency"). So now we can be sure that it is a commonly used term.

There are many dictionaries that define Afghani as a demonym of Afghanistan. Here's two from dictionary.com:

• American Heritage Dictionary: Af·ghan·i Audio Help (āf-gān'ē, -gä'nē) Pronunciation Key adj. Of or relating to Afghanistan; Afghan. n. pl. Af·ghan·is A native or inhabitant of Afghanistan; an Afghan.

• Princeton University's WordNet: adjective 1. of or relating to or characteristic of Afghanistan or its people

And here's another dictionary that define Afghani as a demonym:

• The Canadian Oxford Dictionary: 1. Afghani noun a native or national of Afghanistan.

Google hits are a rough indicator if anything, and your method of excluding "currency" is not valid. Look how many hits you get with dollar excluding currency (24,100,000 for Dollar -currency). Also, I would recommend signing your comments if you're serious about convincing people. --MarsRover (talk) 23:02, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

We have been through this already. It is included in a footnote to what is in the infobox, and this was the consensus agreement for the sake of compromise. If you wish to see the lengthy discussions we have already had concerning this, please see the talk archives. Carl.bunderson (talk) 19:32, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

One of Wikipedia's methods is to always improve itself and if something is uncertain it should be further discussed. Discusses things again is a good thing. Also, you mention consensus but a poll is not consensus according to Wikipedia. You also mention "compromise", I really don't know what you mean by this. I'm asking why is it not in the info-box. The whole purpose of why there is a demonym section setup in the info-box is to list the demonym or demonyms for countries that have multiple demonyms. From the discussion last time, it appears the argument was that even though it was in dictionaries, it was not commonly used. But according to these Google search results (3,080,000 Google search results - excluding the word "currency") the term is commonly used. Therefore, there is no reason for it not to be in the info-box. Unless a good reason is provided it should stay in the info-box.

Everyone involved agreed that there was consensus. Thus, even though there was a poll, everyone involved agreed to use a poll to establish consensus. When everyone involved (socks obviously, and sensibly, excluded) agrees that there is consensus, then there is consensus. Whether or not a poll was used does not matter, provided that everyone agrees on the method. We would have participated in a poll if we did not think it was a useful and necessary way of establishing consensus for what was to be put in the infobox. And why are you saying that polls are against WP policy, when you have subsequently set up a poll?

Yes, consensus can change. But until there is an undeniable change in consensus, the status quo needs be kept. It is not in the infobox because it was agreed that though Afghani and Afghanistani are used, they are not the standard demonym. Thus we put them in a footnote, to compromise between those who wanted them in the infobox, and those who wanted them left out altogether.

They are not commonly used, we have all seen that. Anytime NPR or a reputable journalistic source, such as the Washington Post, speaks of persons from Afghanistan, they use "Afghan"; educated English-speakers do not use Afghani or Afghanistani. Please realize that since these terms are in a footnote, the information is retained in the encyclopedia--it is hardly as though the info isn't here. The info is in the article, why do people not understand that? Just because it is in a footnote does not mean it is not included. Afghani and Afghanistani are already included in the article, no change is needed.

Pushing for them to be in the infobox alongside Afghan is unnecessary rocking of the boat.

Also, please realize that as an anon, your motivations are suspect. This page has far-too often been the victim of vandalism by socks for everyone to trust anons and new users. If (and I'm not saying you are) you are a sock, please quit upsetting this page. Further, I suspect your motivations because you are only concerned with inserting Afghani in the userbox; if your intentions were honourable, you would want Afghanistani listed as well. You're likely just another nationalist sock trying to interfere with the page. Carl.bunderson (talk) 20:44, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I am not asking for it to be included in the article, I am asking why it is not in the info-box. Please stop throwing around accusations, I am not an Afghan-nationalist. The nationalistic position is actually to only have Afghan and not Afghani, that is what Afghan-nationalists like to insist on. I never brought up Afghanistani, I am asking about Afghani. But since you claim that only educated people use Afghan, then are the authors of these 222 (http://books.google.com/books?q=Afghanistani&btnG=Search+Books) books not educated? What you just said is an extreme POV. As you can see educated people do use demonyms other than Afghan, especially educated people as 220 books on Google books use Afghanistani instead of Afghan. However, if you like polls then we will have another one. This poll will only be for Afghani.

Yes, the fact that you are asking about Afghani and never brought up Afghanistani is what makes me suspect your intentions. If your concern was to include all demonyms, you would be just as concerned with Afghanistani as Afghani. Therefore, it is reasonable to think that you are a POV-pusher who wants persons from Afghanistan to be called Afghanis, rather than Afghans or Afghanistanis. Carl.bunderson (talk) 20:57, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

No, I want all demonyms to be listed. If I wanted only Afghani then I would have asked Afghan to be removed. I have not mentioned Afghanistani yet because that is a different case which I will bring up later.

"The poll will only be for Afghani." This is obviously demonstrative of your lack of interest in what is right. As you said, "The whole purpose of why there is a demonym section setup in the info-box is to list the demonym or demonyms for countries that have multiple demonyms." If you were concerned with including the multiple demonyms of Afghanistan in the infobox, you would be concerned with Afghanistani as well as Afghani. The only logical explanation I can see is that you're another POV-pushing sock. If you are actually concerned with Afghanistani, why have you yet to bring that up? It is sourced, so there is no reason to treat it differently from Afghani. Both are less-commonly used demonyms than are Afghan. If you think that Afghanistani should not be included, this would further strengthen the case that you are a POV-pusher, because it is sourced, so there is no good reason not to treat it on an equal footing with Afghani. Carl.bunderson (talk) 21:04, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

You are a very aggressive editor and constantly throwing around accusations, please stop. I have explained that Afghanistani is a different issue than Afghani and I will bring it up later on. I am not the POV pusher, it is you the one that claimed that educated people do not use Afghanistani then I gave you 222 books whose author uses Afghanistani instead of Afghan disproving your POV. Right now I want to discuss Afghani. I will discuss Afghanistani later. I am doing it this way to avoid confusion with the two terms otherwise things will get complicated and people will loose track of things.

Would you mind at least stating your case on Afghanistani, to demonstrate that you aren't just trying to throw it out? Cause at this point, it is what I am afraid you are trying to do. And while yes, Afghani is used some by people with an education, it is behind Afghan by leaps and bounds; that was the point I was making. Carl.bunderson (talk) 21:27, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I will start another discussion and poll on Afghanistani probably tomorrow. Let's give people a day to read this and vote without confusion. I assure you I am not trying to throw it out.

"By leaps and bounds" is not POV. Google both of them. "Afghan" comes up 8.3x as much as does the word "Afghani". 8.3 is leaps and bounds. Afghani is not included in the OED, the definitive English dictionary, as a demonym--that is leaps and bounds. That was the whole point of people who did not want Afghani (or Afghanistani) included at all--they are not used anywhere near as much as is Afghan. Afghani and Afghanistani were almost not even included in the article. That they are in a footnote, for everyone to see, is a reasonable compromise. There is no new reason to Please quit acting as though as many people use Afghani as do Afghan. That is patently not true. And Afghani and Afghanistani are related to one another; there is no reason not to bring them up together. If you think there is, then please say so. Otherwise, you continue to smell like a sock. Carl.bunderson (talk) 21:45, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

That does not neglect the 2.9 million results for Afghani. If you notice, the dictionaries I provided are American and Canadian (North American). And one of them was a Canadian version of OED. So it is in the OED actually, though the Canadian version. American and Canadian English are as important as British so it should not be neglected. Afghani and Afghanistani of coarse both mean native or inhabitant of Afghanistan but I want to discuss them separately and give each one it's own reasons and not to have them confused with the other. By the way, Afghani and Afghanistani are a little different in their meanings. Please see the article Afghanistani. Just give it a little time for this discussion to settle.

There are only 2.3m results for Afghani, first of all. And as Mars pointed out, you're methods are off and google results are rough anyhow. Furthermore, as we have said, Afghani is still included in the article. You're acting as though it is excluded. The OED is the best indicator of English usage; I'm not denying that the dictionaries you provided are RS, but it is still the case that because it is not in the OED, it is by no means a widely accepted demonym. Thus why it is in a footnote and not in the main body of the infobox. And we have sources saying that both Afghani and Afghanistani are demonyms of Afghanistan. So for what we are discussing, that is their meaning, regardless if they have other, different connotations according to other persons. Carl.bunderson (talk) 01:59, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

The OED is a British English dictionary. American and Canadian English dictionaries do have Afghani defined as a demonym. OED's Canadian edition (The Canadian Oxford Dictionary) has Afghani defined as a demonym. So it is in the OED, just not the British version. The English Wikipedia includes all varieties of English. Besides, American English is gaining more influence than British these days.

I'm glad you're not trying to throw out Afghanistani. If nothing else, would you state what you think on it on my talk page though? However, I really think that people are smart enough to follow a conversation on both of the alternative demonyms, so it would be ideal here. Carl.bunderson (talk) 21:50, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

The poll needs to be re-worded. The way it is now, it gives the impression that Afghani is not included in the article at all. The wording is misleading and could skew the results, so the poll needs to be redone. Carl.bunderson (talk) 19:50, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

The poll is very simple: either this demonym is included in the info-box or not. The info-box is where we list the demonyms so that is what this poll is concerning. If you don't think Afghani should be in the info-box's demonym listing for the reader to see and should be in the footnotes instead where no reader will see it, then please vote and provide that as your reason.

You've failed to notice my point. The way you have worded the poll will skew the results. Surely you realize this. Everyone knows that the questions you ask affect the answers you get. I am fine having a poll, but it needs to be fair. I will strike through this poll again, and continue to do so if the sock (not you, anon) undoes my edit. Carl.bunderson (talk) 03:22, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Well you shouldn't be doing that since you are not an administrator, but I will change the wording since you insist.

Ok its going to take more than that. We need to completely start the poll over. It should be worded more like the previous poll than the version you have. Your wording right now is very biased against my position. Carl.bunderson (talk) 06:34, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I've provided a new poll, in which everyone is free to vote. If you disagree with the wording I have provided, please discuss it with me and we will come up with something that we can agree on. Carl.bunderson (talk) 18:04, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Anon, this discussion thread, as well as the previous ones, give plenty enough context for people to decide how to vote. Including reasons in the poll itself is push polling. When we vote for elected officials, we arent presented with a pro/con list in the polling place...the appropriate time for that is prior to the polling.

The reason there should be two separate polls is very simple and should be obvious: the person voting might want Afghani but not Afghanistasni, or they might want Afghanistani but not Afghani.

But there is no reason to want Afghani but not Afghanistani, or vice versa. Carl.bunderson (talk) 17:05, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

There might not be a reason that you can think of, but I'm sure others can. One reason would be for example that Afghanistani does not have as many Google search results as Afghani.

That is an invalid reason. As long as both are sourced, both ought to be treated the same. Your poll is treating them separately, in defiance of precedence, and still is giving reasons for Afghanistani. My poll solves both of those issues. Carl.bunderson (talk) 17:29, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

You've again deleted my comments, in defiance of a three-fold warning from another user. And ThuranX does not seem to be an admin: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:ListUsers&dir=prev&limit=500&group=sysop

I did not delete your latest comment intentionally, you keep reverting and crossing out the poll in defiance of ThuranX. I've placed your latest comment back. Even if he is not an administrator, there is now consensus that you are pushing your POV. This is obvious by the fact that you voted negative.

There is no consensus about this. He sided with you, cab sided with me. That is perfectly evenly split. You seem to have no idea about what consensus is. Carl.bunderson (talk) 21:30, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Cab did not side with you. He was fine with my poll but he changed the wording a little, which I accidentally reverted. I told him after I changed it back to his way and he is fine with it (my poll with his modification to it).

(The above three comments refactored for legibility)ThuranX (talk) 05:29, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Poll

Considering that Afghani is defined as people of Afghanistan in the dictionaries listed above and that there are 3,080,000 Google search results for it, shouldn't Afghani be listed as a demonym?

Please sign underneath which one you want to see with four tildes (~) and if you vote no please provide a reason.

• Yes, Afghani should be in the info-box

1. --Anoshirawan 05:58, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
2. Shervink (talk) 13:45, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

• No, Afghani should not be in the info-box because...

Poll crossed out by User:Carl.bunderson

Poll

Please vote in support of one of three possible positions on the demonym issue:

1. mention all three terms in the infobox

--Anoshirawan 05:56, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

2. mention Afghan in the infobox, and footnote Afghani and Afghanistani

Carl.bunderson (talk) 17:29, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

3. mention only Afghan

This poll is invalid on its' face, as the editor posting it crossed out a previous poll, then ONLY presented the options he already supports. THe poll needs:

1. Mention Afghan only
2. Mention Afghani Only
3. Mention Afghanistani Only
4. Mention Afghan/Afghani
5. Mention Afghan/Afghanistani
6. Mention Afghani/Afghanistani
7. Mention all Three.

Only this, a comprehensive set of options, will show real consensus, as it offers people ALL possible permutations, without biases or omissions. ThuranX (talk) 05:32, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I crossed out the previous poll because it was poorly worded. And I'm not sure what you mean by he "ONLY presented the options he already supports"; I only support one option, so your meaning is unclear. Please bother to look at the context of this debate though. Any option that does not include Afghan is untenable--this is by far the most common demonym. The others are hardly used--this is why the debate started in the first place. The others are so rarely seen, that some consider them to be spurious options. So that cuts down the possible permutations to Mention Afghan only, or mention all three.

Also, you've ignored the context by ignoring the issue of the footnotes. Afghani and Afghanistani were put in the footnote, rather than directly in the infobox, because they are not used by very well-established and even comprehensive dictionaries, i.e. the OED. But they do have sources, so they must be included in one way or another. Ergo, Mention Afghan only is not an option. With hindsight, I should not have included it in my poll--I did it merely because the poll had precedent in this talk page.

So, the only option we are left at is mentioning all three. They must all be included, because they are sourced, in one way or another. The only question that has been raised is where they are to be located. All three in the infobox, or the two less common ones in a footnote. If anyone can offer substantial reasons why these are not the only two valid permutations of the poll, please offer away. Carl.bunderson (talk) 00:32, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Infobox: “Persian” i.o. Dari not pertinent

Hi SwatiAfridi!
In the article about Afghanistan, you changed the name of one of the official languages of this country atop the infobox, from Dari to “Persian”.
Despite your claim that «this language is known as Persian in English»,

1. Dari is a Persian language, but certainly not Fārsi as spoken in Irān;
2. Even English-speaking people do know what Dari and Iranian Fārsi dialects are, especially when they are aware of Afghan most prominent features.
   

If you speak one (or more) Persian dialect(s) or language(s), you may share this view, which is largely disputed, but please, do not put it forcibly on others .
Otherwise, you may know that there are enough differences between Iran's and Afghanistan's Persian dialects to cause full or partial incomprehension between most inhabitants of both countries.
I noted this fact by myself a couple of years ago, and I was not alone to do so. There is even a short passage in a documentary by Mohsen Makhmalbāf, الفبای افغان (The Afghan Alphabet), the young Herāti girl, a “Fārsīwān”, does not understand what Iranian people — them being Fārsīwānān too — from the Refugee village (some 30 mi. from the border) say… This example and my repeated experience are only two among many others.

I have been careful enough to avoid “all” delicate points about this country and others — I could not imagine this relatively tiny spot could become controversial… I would be grateful to you to respect the undid revert.
بیش از این مزاحمت نمی شوم. عجالتاً خدا نگهدار
✓ Kanġi Oĥanko (talk) 16:08, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

NB: Same message left at SwatiAfridi's talk page too.

Actually it is "Dari" that is a politicized term. The Encyclopaedia Iranica writes: :

“ Darī (q.v.) is a term long recommended by Afghan authorities to designate Afghan Persian in contrast to Iranian Persian; a written language common to all educated Afghanis, Darī must not be confused with Kābolī, the dialect of Kabul and surrounding areas that is more or less understood by eighty percent of the non-Persian speaking population and is fast becoming the nation's koine. [...] The revival of the ancient term Darī was intended to signify that Afghans consider their country the cradle of the language. Hence, the name Fārsī, the language of Fārs, is strictly avoided. ”

("Modern literature of Afghanistan" by R. Farhādī, Encyclopaedia Iranica, xii, Online Edition, LINK).

The language of Eastern Iran and Western Afghanistan (traditionally known as Khorasani) is indeed identical, but also significantly different from the dialects of Eastern (Kabuli) and Northern (Mazari or Balkhi) Afghanistan. The fact is that there is neither an Iranian dialect of Persian, nor an Afghan dialect of Persian. The so-called Iranian dialect is the standard dialect of Tehran and different from the dialects spoken in Mazandaran, Khorasan, Kerman, or Isfahan. The dialect of Herat and Farah is different from the dialect of Kabul. The Khorasani (or Herati) dialect still uses older Persian expressions, for example bostāndan for "to get" instead of the standard gereftan in Kabul. They also use more archaic pronunciations, for example vakhēz! ("stand up!") instead of the newer bekhēz as used in standard Kabuli. There is also a significant difference in the vocalic sound. While the Kabuli dialect uses most of the time (correctly) an -a or -ā, the Herati dialect (or Khorasani in general) uses, similar to Western ("Iranian") dialects -o, -ū or -ü (for example in the word nūn/nün instead of the standard nān, "bread"; the -ü is pronounced as in German or Turkish, but blending into a -u). The -kh ([x]) is also softer than in the more eastern dialects (in total contrast to Tajiki (Bukhari)), sometimes blending into a harder h.

I do not understand why these different dialects are supposed to be categorized under "Dari", although the Kabuli dialect of Afghanistan is much closer to certain "Iranian dialects" (for example teh dialect of Shiraz) than Khorasani.

Naming the dialects of Afghanistan "Dari" was a political move of the Muhammadzai ruling family who wanted to create some kind of new "Afghan identity" by breaking all historical ties to Iran. This was, in part, also motivated by the political alliance with Kemalist Turkey (the powerful Afghan politician Mahmoud Tarzi was educated by the Young Turks; his daughter married into the Ottoman family; another daughter was married to Amanullah Khan, king of Afghanistan, and the first among all rulers in the world to visit Atatürk), and continued into the era of Zahir Shah in which all political leaders were students of Tarzi. While before the 20's Persian books in Afghanistan were known as "Farsi" books, the name was changed to "Farsi-e Dari" in the 20's and 30's, and then finally minimized to "Dari" in the 60's (the Afghan constitution of 1964 only recognizes "Dari" as the name of the Persian language).

Since Dari refers specifically to the variant of Persian spoken in Afghanistan, it seems that Dari is more appropriate here. And Tajik007, please sign your posts. Carl.bunderson (talk) 18:52, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

In writing, both variants are the same. It is only when we speak that there are differences, like Irish-English and American-English for example. Both are English, we do not call one "Irish" and the other "American". Especially in this case, we would say Jamhūrī-ye Islāmī-ye Afġānistān the exact same way in both variants. The final say on this is by Encyclopedia Iranica, as they are the most authoritative source on Iranian studies (by Iranian I mean Iranian peoples, not just citizens of Iran), and their say has been quoted above.

Can some more people comment on this? I hesitate to take the word of a possible sock that this is true? Carl.bunderson (talk) 19:00, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

You don't need to take anyone's word for anything. You can go to http://www.iranica.com/newsite/articles/v1f5/v1f5a040a.html and read for yourself what Encyclopedia Iranica, the most prestigious and reliable encyclopedia on Iranian studies, has to say.

It seems like the situation of Swedish and Norwegian...though they are substantially the same language (ie, mutually intelligible) but they are nonetheless separate languages because they have separate contexts. Carl.bunderson (talk) 19:10, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

No, the languages are the same here. This is like the variants of English spoken around the world (eg. American, Irish, Australian, Scotish, etc... all are known as English). Please just read the Encyclopedia Iranica's article instead of speculating. Go down to "Languages".

One way you could have easily proven this to yourself is by going to the Iran article. You can see in that article's info-box Jomhūrī-ye Eslāmī-ye Īrān, which is exactly the same as this.

It has long been the way it is, and the opinion of one potential sock is not a change in consensus. Kangi had a well-reasoned explanation for reverting the blocked sock SwatiAfridi's change. I am defending consensus from someone (Tajik007) who holds the same position as a banned sock. Carl.bunderson (talk) 19:33, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Stop lying, anyone can see themselves that for years and still the language throughout this entire article and other related articles has been referred to as Persian. I am the one defending this article's consensus from a user who has doesn't even know this language and ignores scholarly sources and common sense (see Iran's infobox).

Look at Archive 6 of this page--a question about Dari vs. Dari (Persian) is demonstrative that the status quo on the page has been Dari (Persian) rather than Persian or Dari. Carl.bunderson (talk) 20:53, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Well Tajik007 has been indef blocked as a confirmed sock of Beh-nam. So that about clears that up... Carl.bunderson (talk) 01:01, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Given that this discussion has died down with no consensus to change the status quo, I'm unlocking the article so that other portions can be edited. To avoid edit wars, please discuss any future changes to the official languages list in the infobox here on the talk page, before making them. Thanks, Beland (talk) 19:46, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

The Afghanistan article has a section on culture but nothing about the plastic arts. Specific sites (Bamiyan, Balkh) have architecture, sculpture, painting but I have not found a place for the arts of Afghanistan. Am I missing it? Does a section need to be created? I bring this up today because I was searching for an appropriate place to add a note about the item on the Wikipedia News Box--the LA Times article on the discovery of evidence of oil painting at Bamiyan. Will (talk) 21:23, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Afghans are not a "Persian tribe"

I removed the following:

A Moroccan traveller, Ibn Battuta, visiting Kabul in 1333 writes: "We travelled on to Kabul, formerly a vast town, the site of which is now occupied by a village inhabited by a tribe of Persians called Afghans. They hold mountains and defiles and possess considerable strength, and are mostly highwaymen."

The source is a nice read, but this part is inaccurate. Afghans are an Iranian tribe, but they are not a Persian tribe. There is no such thing as Persian tribes. Also I doubt that during this time there was any people called Afghans in Kabul since Encyclopedia of Islam says during this time they lived south of Kabul. CyrusTheGreat2 (talk) 06:00, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Al-Biruni, who was himself a Persian, referred to Afghans as various tribes living on the western frontier mountains of the Indus River, which would be the Sulaiman Mountains. So obviously Afghans are not a Persian tribe (there are no Persian tribes) and they were not in Kabul yet.

Source:

• Morgenstierne, G. (1999). "AFGHĀN". Encyclopaedia of Islam (CD-ROM Edition v. 1.0 ed.). Leiden, The Netherlands: Koninklijke Brill NV. {{cite encyclopedia}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)

a user saying claiming that: جمهوری اسلامی افغانستان - Jamhūrī-ye Islāmī-ye Afġānistān is not Persian

Your edit has been reverted. If you look at the difference, you made a change in the infobox of Dari (Persian) to Persian. This is unacceptable. This is a contentious issue , as you can see from the banned sock with whom I last dealt on this page. Your explanation here of your edit is entirely removed from the actual edit. Please be sure to do what you intend to do, or be sure not to intentionally mislead others. Carl.bunderson (talk) 06:53, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Of coarse I did. Please read the first sentence of the article: Afghanistan, officially the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan (Pashto: د افغانستان اسلامي جمهوریت, Persian: جمهوری اسلامی افغانستان), is a landlocked country that is located approximately in the center of Asia. -- CyrusTheGreat2 (talk) 06:57, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

No, you did not. I have looked and re-looked at the differences between our edits, and you have not removed the section you talked about. The only difference is a change between Dari and Persian. This is not what you said you did: you said that you removed a section on Ibn Battuta. Moreover, issues of Persian/Dari are not to be changed on the page until there is consensus for it, because it is such a contentious issue. Carl.bunderson (talk) 07:15, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if you're trying to be funny or not claiming that I don't know my own language. However, in case you're serious, simply look at the first sentence of the article (Afghanistan, officially the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan (Pashto: د افغانستان اسلامي جمهوریت, Persian: جمهوری اسلامی افغانستان), is a landlocked country that is located approximately in the center of Asia.) and compare it to previous versions... and you will see it has never been contested. If you are trying to be funny or just vandalizing for kicks, please stop. CyrusTheGreat2 (talk) 07:19, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Look at the discussion above. The person taking your position was a sockpuppet. I realized that Dari and Persian are essentially the same thing. But the Afghan form of Persian is called Dari, and that is the consensus this page has come to. Read the points that were made by Kangi. If you want to change consensus, you are free to make your case. But editing the page the way you have been doing is in a strain of vandalism that I am not going to put up with. Carl.bunderson (talk) 07:30, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Consensus is not a one man show. Kengi has given us his POV. If Kengi gave some sources then I would have argued against him. However, I will not bother wasting time with WP:POVs. One user's POV does cannot change the long established consensus that was already there. I've checked earlier versions and the language has always been referred to as Persian in this article. If other users come along and agree with Kengi and provide some sources making this claim, then I will argue with them. Though I know no one will since they won't find any such sources. Until then Kengi's POVs can be ignored. CyrusTheGreat2 (talk) 07:34, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I'm going to revert to the way it was before you made your edit. Persian and Dari will be mixed through the infobox and lead, the way it has long been. But it is obvious from the talk archive as well that that version is the way it has long been, and that that is consensus. Trying to make all references to Persian instead of Dari is nationalistic POV-pushing on your part. Carl.bunderson (talk) 07:38, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

No, that is not ok. That looks very inconsistent and it has always been referred to as strictly Persian in the lead. As for your accusation, on the contrary it is pushing for Dari that is nationalistic as pointed out by a source mentioned above. CyrusTheGreat2 (talk) 07:44, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, sources provided by blocked socks should certainly be trusted... Carl.bunderson (talk) 10:36, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, he was another sock of Beh-nam. Contentious changes to the issues of language or demonym will be reverted, with extreme prejudice (i.e. ruthlessly), as vandalism, by me. If anyone makes changes without first discussing them here, and establishing clear consensus, they are vandalizing. Discussions here are more than welcome. Carl.bunderson (talk) 19:31, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Misleading sources

The sources for Middle East actually said Central Asia. Middle East can be added back but with proper sources. Also, I added more meaningful pictures and removed the previous ones where politics are eating lunch and the vise president appearing as police commissioner.--Bistiks (talk) 19:41, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Let's just leave it as is for now, and I will review the sources over the weekend. If Bistiks is right, that the sources don't support the text in the article, we will change it. If they do, we will keep the text as is. Does anyone has a problem with him changing the pictures, and if so, why? Carl.bunderson (talk) 20:13, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I removed these sources:

• [1] (doesn't mention that Afghanistan is in the Middle East and leads to CIA factbook, which actually says "Southern Asia")
• Afghanistan is a republic in southwestern Asia (That does not say "Middle East"]
• [2] (Does not say Afghanistan is in Middle East)
• [3] (does not say Afghanistan is in Middle East)

We don't even need so many sources for this, just CIA is fine because they deal alot with geography of countrys. CIA says Southern Asia but many other reliable sources (including Afghanistan's government related sites) also say "Central Asia" so we can leave both and that's what I did. It's easy to read South-Central Asia than Central-South Asia or Central Asia, South Asia, etc. It makes no sense to fight over this. To say it is part of Central Asia, South Asia, and Middle East would be stupid and not making sense. The persons (Tajik) and (Beh-nam), who are pushing for Afghanistan to be added in Middle East are extremely ignorant pro-Iranian Shiites, wanting Afghanistan to be close to Iran because Iran is Shiite just like them and is part of the Middle East. That's their purpose with all this edit-wars they do on Afghanistan related articles and I'm very sure of it. Evertime when there is edit-war it's them again. One idoit is from Germany and the other stupid one is from Canada. They are even giving Germany and Canada a bad name.--Bistiks (talk) 20:18, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe the pictures that I added are what needs to be in this article.

• The inside parliament house, which is the main government body that decides on everything for Afghanistan
• I removed the police pic because the Afghan police are accused everywhere as corrupted. In other words they have bad reputation. That's not the reason though, the picture's quality was bad and not very meaninful. Afghan vice president appeared in it like some police commissioner. The Afghan National Army is better looking because they are "National" (countrywide) and the pic's quality is very good.
• In the Edutaion section I figured this one is better because the other one already exists inside Kabul University. Since there are many pics available we should use other ones than seeing the same one everywhere. Plus in my pic the girls look sexy than the other one. If someone is not satify with my reasoning then explain why.--Bistiks (talk) 12:49, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Since a blocked sock was the only person objecting to your edits, I am fine with maintaining them. Carl.bunderson (talk) 16:57, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Hey I noticed this discussion seems to have died and the article still lists Afghanistan as being "located within Central Asia, South Asia, and the Middle East". The Middle East claim has 3 references, however I read all three of them, all of them cite Afghanistan as either in South Asia or Central Asia, none of them mention the Middle East. I think this common misconception stems from Afghanistan being an Islamic Republic, when most of the Islam dominated countries are located in the Middle East. It's similar to many people refering to all Muslims as "Arab", Arabs are strictly from Saudi Arabia, it is not nearly as general a term as many people seem to think. Anyway, unless someone objects, could we please remove the Middle East reference? Thanks, Rodwa4 (talk) 19:34, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I would tentatively say, remove saying it is located in the Middle East. The first and third references implicitly say Afghanistan is in the Middle East. The National Geographic obviously says nothing of the kind. So I would support removing "Middle East" absent an objection. Carl.bunderson (talk) 20:01, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Carl, I think there is a reason this section is titled "Misleading Sources", the person who is using those references clearly is hoping that you will not actually read what is on those websites. The first site does not say anything about the location of Afghanistan, it doesn't say Middle East or Central Asia, but your assuming that it means it is in the Middle East because the website is titled "The Middle East Network Information Center". Well like I noted before, people like to confuse the geographic Middle East with Muslim countries. If you look at that website more closely, you will see it has 29 countries listed including Afghanistan, but included in those 29 countries are 9 that are Arabic speaking countries in Africa, and most of the rest with the exception of a few are either in Central or Southwestern Asia. So clearly that site is not dedicated to countries in the Middle East, but simply to Islamic, Arabic speaking countries. Now about your third source, it is also misleading: It's title is "The Middle East Institute", however, if you read what it actually says, the very first sentence begins with this: "Afghanistan is a republic in southwestern Asia", and if you search the page, in no place does it say anything about Afghanistan being in the Middle East. So I can understand your confusion, but please actually check the sources before stating that they "implicitly" support someones claim. Rodwa4 (talk) 04:12, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

No, I was right to say they were "implicit". That is precisely what implicit means. They do not actually, explicitly say "Afghanistan is in the Middle East". But the page titles imply that it is. And as for the third page, saying it is in southwestern Asia does not preclude its being in the Middle East. It is a fallacy to say that because X is in A it cannot also be in B; it is certainly the case that regions can overlap one-another. I did check the sources...how else could I have made my comment without having done so? Carl.bunderson (talk) 04:38, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry Carl, I didn't mean to sound rude like that. That was my bad on being dumb and not knowing what that word meant and also just having a bad tone in my response. I apologize.Rodwa4 (talk) 15:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Afghan military numbers are not listed but police are.

Afghan National Army: 76,000

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-05/11/content_8146907.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rasmasyean (talk • contribs) 21:08, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Cuisine

It has been suggested that we add something about Afghanistan's cuisine to this article. I opted to add a link in the see also to Cuisine of Afghanistan, but what do others think? Do we need to put a couple/few sentence into the culture section? My only hesitation is that the article is plenty-long enough as it is. Carl.bunderson (talk) 23:03, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

separate sections for the Soviet occupation, and the civil war?

The Soviet forces in 1989, leaving a puppet regime. The anti-communist militia continued to fight that puppet regime.

Didn't the anti-communist militia's overthrow the communists circa 1991? Didn't the loose coalition lead to a new President, who unfortunately only controlled Kabul, initiating several years of civil war in the rest of the country?

The article currently implies that the Soviet Union's puppets continued in power until they were overthrown by the Taliban in 1995. But, that's not right, is it?

Shouldn't there be separate sections for the Soviet occupation, and the civil war that followed it, during which the Taliban rose to power?

Cheers! Geo Swan (talk) 13:32, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes Geo Swan you are right, when the Mujahideen overthrew the Communists in 1992, there was a disagreement over which factions of the Mujahideen would take power, and the result was a devastating civil war which may have caused as much or even more damage then the Soviet invasion did. Then the Taliban overthrew the Mujahideen faction that was in control of Kabul in 1995/1996. If I get the time I will try to rewrite this section and cite some good sources. Rodwa4 (talk) 19:24, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Alefbe, it is clear to me that you do not understand phonology through your edits. Please do not make further edits unless you are certain that they are correct. I will explain, though, that [æ] does not represent the front open vowel as well as [a]. For proof, say the English word "man" with an American accent; and then say the pɒrsi word for "me".--DJ1AM (talk) 19:47, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[a] doesn't represent that vowel in Persian (it is [æ] without any doubt). You can check any book related to Persian phonology (for example, references that are cited in Persian phonology). If you insist on changing it, first cite a reliable source. Alefbe (talk) 19:56, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Those phonology books are wrong. [æ] was created as a part of the IPA vowels specifically to accomodate American English; notice that it is not representative of one of the four major vowel heights. pɒrsi does not have this sound. [a] is a more accurate and general representation of that vowel. -- DJ1AM (talk) 20:02, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not the place for original research. Cite a reliable source. This Persian vowel is pronunced as "a" in the English words "cat", "hat" and "man" (it is definitely [æ]). Alefbe (talk) 20:15, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

It is definitely not [æ]. Just because some book says that it is does not make it so. Anybody can read a book and decide to edit wikipedia. Let the people that have read the books and understand the subject edit the subject matter. -- DJ1AM (talk) 20:22, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

DJ1AM, do not change sourced material. Azalea pomp (talk) 20:52, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

The OED gives Afghanistanism as "æf{sm}gæn{shti}st{schwa}{smm}n{shti}z({schwa})m" and Afghan as "{sm}æfgæn". It seems obvious that [æ] reflects sourced material, while [a] does not. Carl.bunderson (talk) 20:57, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

While it is great that you know how to copy text out of a book, I doubt that you have an understanding of what is written. Your lack of understanding is shown through the use of phonological brackets in your edits rather than phonetic ones. Your transcription would be closer to being correct if it were in phonetic brackets. For an introduction to the subject matter, read David Odden's book Introducing Phonology.-- DJ1AM (talk) 21:09, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

And Carl.bunderson, your source is not of much use as it uses a nonnative pronunciation, using [æ] instead of [ɒ]. -- DJ1AM (talk) 21:14, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

You're right, I'm not terribly good at understanding IPA, but for the matter at hand, I am able to distinguish between ae and a. And the matter of "nonnative pronunciation" is not one of importance. The English WP is concerned with the pronunciation of "Afghanistan" in the English language, not the native languages of Afghanistan. Carl.bunderson (talk) 21:33, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I do not think that anyone is interested in the foreign pronunciation of a name. It is much more useful to include the native pronunciation as that is the one that would be informative to most users. -- DJ1AM (talk) 22:07, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Does Cowan and Rakusan actually say that that is the pronunciation of Afghanistan? If so, you need to provide a page number. And if not, the reference needs to be removed because it is misleading. Carl.bunderson (talk) 22:31, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I have looked at the Cowan source (page 50) and he uses [æ] for Persian short "a" and no Afghanistan is not listed in the source. Azalea pomp (talk) 22:38, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Also, this is the Persian pronunciation of the name. Since this is English wikipedia, the English pronunciation should be included as well as the Pashto pronunciation. Azalea pomp (talk) 22:43, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

See this is my concern...we can't use Cowan as a source for the pronunciation of "Afghanistan" when Cowan does not show the pronunciation of Afghanistan. This feels like a novel synthesis. Since there was never a source provided for the pronunciation, perhaps we should omit the pronunciation until someone provides a RS for it in IPA notation. Though I do wish this elusive pp 50 would show up on the Google Book preview. Carl.bunderson (talk) 22:49, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree Carl.bunderson. Azalea pomp (talk) 22:56, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Straightforward synthesis, based on reliable material, should be fine. The problem with DJ1AM's edit was that DJ1AM didn't provide any source for the basis of his/her synthesis and his/her synthesis was not consistent with reliable sources. Alefbe (talk) 01:36, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

So we'll revert to the last edit by Kozuch, which includes no pronunciation? Carl.bunderson (talk) 23:16, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Until, we can all agree and have some academic sources, I say no pronunciation. We could include the pronunciation in English as this is English wikipedia. This is from the American Heritage Dictionary: [æfˈgænɪstæn], page 23 fourth addition. Azalea pomp (talk) 23:19, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd be fine with including that American Heritage pronunciation now, and as other clearly sourced pronunciations are found, to add those in addition. Carl.bunderson (talk) 23:28, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Let's put the English pronunciation on the page and wait to do more research to find the exact pronunciations in Dari and Pashto which are sourced. Azalea pomp (talk) 23:50, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I added the pronunciation you provided, and cited the 4th edition of the Am.Heritage dictionary. Carl.bunderson (talk) 00:08, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

The identification of the Persian low vowels as [æ], [ɒ] comes straight from the IPA Handbook. However, that's for Tehran dialect. kwami (talk) 06:17, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if this will be helpful to this debate, but I learned Dari from teachers who all formerly lived in Kabul, several of which taught at Kabul University, and they taught me to pronounce Afghanistan with each of the "a"s being pronounced like the vowel in the English words "on" and "frog". I know nothing of phonology, so I don't know how those vowels should be represented, but that is how it should sound if you are looking for the native Afghan sound. Also the "gh" in Afghanistan representes the Persian letter "ghayn" (غ), which is a sound completely non-existent in English, so I don't know how you want to deal with that. I hope this information is helpful. Rodwa4 (talk) 19:17, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Languages

The source cited for languages, the CIA World Fact Book, says: "Languages: Afghan Persian or Dari (official) 50%, Pashto (official) 35%, Turkic languages (primarily Uzbek and Turkmen) 11%, 30 minor languages (primarily Balochi and Pashai) 4%, much bilingualism." --Bejnar (talk) 22:10, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The Ethnologue lists 47 languages: http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=Afghanistan Azalea pomp (talk) 03:36, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Errors in this article

Since this article is locked, I cannot make any edits, but I have noticed two erros in this article: Under the "Demographics" section, there is a reference to the "Afghani" population. I don't know if it is a typo or just ignorance by the author, but Afghani is the currency used in Afghanistan, the population should be refered to as "Afghan" (no "i"). Also, directly below that in the "Languages" section, it is written that the two official languages are Pashto and Persian (Dari dialects). This is also wrong, the official languages are Pashto and Dari, and Dari happens to be a Persian language, but Persian by itself is not the official language of any country. Rodwa4 (talk) 23:00, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Afghani can refer to a person of Afghanistan, as well as the currency. It is much less commonly used than is Afghan, though, so I would support a standardization of the use of 'Afghan' in the article. And I suggest some more people take up th Dari/Pashto issue. It's been something of a hot potato on the page. Carl.bunderson (talk) 03:12, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Well let me just say this, in Dari and Pashto both, both "Afghan" (افغان) and "Afghani" (افغانی) are used, however "Afghan" is used to refer to people, and "Afghani" is only used to refer to inanimate objects, such as an "Afghani rug" etc, but even in that capacity it is much more common to say "Afghan rug". In any case it is better for us to use "Afghan", because nobody will argue that "Afghan" is not a proper term, but the use of the term "Afghani" on wikipedia inevitably generates protests and conflicts. Rodwa4 (talk) 19:06, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd say we're agreed then that within the article "Afghan" should be used exclusively as the demonym (excepting of course the single instance in the footnote to the infobox). If an admin wants to change "Afghani" to "Afghan" in the demographics section, that would be great. Carl.bunderson (talk) 19:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)