Talk:Islamophobia

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This article survived three votes for deletion. An archived record of these debates can be found here, here, and here.

Opinions of various people

As it was reasonably pointed out to me by User:Jayjg in Talk:Goy, encyclopedic articles must be based on writings of experts in the corresponding domain of expertise, not just by any important or respectable people. The Islamophobia article increasingly becomes as collection of opinions. I am not judging whether this is good or bad, but I would like to carefully consider the current and future text bearing in mind this important principle.

In particular, I would like to object the quotation of a Piers Benn in Islamophobia#Islamophobia-phobia section. He is a recognized expert mainly in medical ethics. Of course as a philosopher, he chooses to speak on multitudes of other high issues, but I question that his very occasional incursion into Islam-related subjects is encyclopedic enough. What is more, from his article I strongly suspect that he is quite ignorant in Islam (e.g. he writes "Islamic nations have barely been secularised", which (not going into detail here) is both historically wrong, lopsided, stereotyped, and discriminative statement.). Therefore may I suggest to delete it. Mukadderat 18:01, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree see my comments regarding Oliver Kamm above, writing occasional editorials in a newspaper doesn't make you an expert Bleh999 18:44, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Since Islamophobia is not an academic subject but a controversial political term, the notion of experts is moot here. This is an area of public debate rather than scholarship. Thus, notability, not expertise (in a non-existent field), is the only criterion for inclusion. Beit Or 18:48, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Please allow me to disagree. Politics is subject to science, called political science. Public debate is a subject of anotther science, sociology. We are writing an encyclopedic article, not a digest of public views. A sociologist, a politologist, or other expert has to decide which opinions are mainstream tendencies and which opinions are episodic fringe. We are not going to quote Christina Aguilera of Madonna here, do we? Despite the fact they are authority and even object of worship by many, with all due respect, they have no say in encyclopedia. In any topic the issue of undue weight is serious. If we not follow it, one may easily bury an opinion of a single world-reputable expert under thousands newspaper publications of occasional people. Mukadderat 18:57, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I am puzzled by your comment. What exactly do you suggest to leave in this article if only sociologists and political scientists are allowed to speak? Beit Or 19:21, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

What's puzzling? I am against easily stretchable academic standards. Everyone is entitled to speak on any topic, but within their area of expertise. A reporter may report the cases of "alleged islamophobia". An influential politician may be quoted in their use/abuse of the term. A psychiatrist may attest that there is no such thing as "clinical Islamophibia". A historian may say that the term "Islamophobia" is a 20th century invention, but the thing that is today defined as Islamophobia has already been discussed by Sulayman Pasha in 1712. And so on. Each speaks their wisdom in their domain. But to read in encyclopedia an average lector from Medical college(!) (Piers Benn) teching us that "Islamophobia-phobia can undermine critical scrutiny of Islam" is ridiculous. If a researcher may be frightened by "islamophobia", then his "critical scrutiny" has no value anyway, since he has no solid moral values to hold on in his research, and for this reason his research cannot be reliable (since we don't know what else he is afraid of). So this musing of this Benn is just a nonnotable feat of Islamophobia-phobia-phobia (sic). Mukadderat 05:15, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

At least only experts should have the right to define 'islamophobia' as a controversial term, otherwise that it is a controversial term cannot be reliably presented as a fact. That does not mean that other opinions should be removed from the article, but at the moment they are being used as references for the fact that it is a controversial term. Anyone writing from a blog qualifies as a reliable source by this standard. Bleh999 20:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

"Anyone writing from a blog" - are you ironic or literal here? The term "controversial" does not mean that a bunch of ignoramuses don't know what the term in question means. My daughter doesn't understand maths. But this does not make maths "controversial. A controversy of encyclopedic level, i.e.,the one worth reporting is the one in encyclopedia are core disagreements by reputable or influential people or by large masses of people as reported by experts in opinions of masses. An anyone blogger is hardly a representative for encyclopedia; let him be happy with Hyde Park of blogosphere. Mukadderat 05:24, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Header

I'm going to have to agree to what SlimVirgin wrote a few days ago: I'm not working on this article with so many poor writers with prejudiced viewpoints constantly screwing up the header. Here's a couple of ideas for everybody: 1. When you're writing an encyclopedia article on a term defined in the OED don't make up your own definition. 2. Don't let people who are prejudiced write an article on prejudice. This is hard for some to grasp on this page, as they basically write: "Sure, there is prejudice against Muslims. But isn't it justified, considering that Islam is a vile religion?" This is ridiculous. My favorites:

Matt 57: "So for me, no, I don't have prejudice against Islam. I know many facts about it and I made my judgement based on those facts, for example, just one of them being the 800 men on Banu Qurayza who were massacared on the orders on Muhammad."

Gee, Matt. It doesn't SOUND like you're prejudiced against Islam.

Limboot: (completely unintelligable writing). Wordsaladman is gone. RIP.

ProtectWomen: "...these people are victims of a terrible ideology that must be exposed for what it is."

Karl Meier: "CAIR is an extremist organization...the United Nations is often dominated by Islamic memberstates...the concept of islamophobia AND the way it is being used is controversial..." and other associated statements that reliably boil down to Islam is Bad and Criticism of Islam is Good.

Guys, I'm a white Roman Catholic guy who has no great love of Islam but some editors on this page need to take a step back and get some perspective on themselves before they contribute to an encyclopedic page about an Islam-related subject. MarkB2 05:30, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

While I agree with most of your text, I would like to notice that OED is a dictionary, which may be quoted, as expert in English language, but not an ultimate authority in the topic. If only we could write that those who call criticism of Islam Islamophobia simply don't know English language. The problem that some of them do know English much better than average wikipedians. Mukadderat 05:46, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

We do not care what race or religion you are. We also do not care what you or anyone else thinks of islam. It is completely irrelevant to this article and to the writing of this encyclopedia. I advise you not to make personal attacks against other editors, as you just did against many. Everyone has a bias, and last I checked wikipedia policies, holding a particular bias was not a reason for someone to be blocked from editing. Articles should be NPOV, but expecting editors to be is unrealistic and ridiculous. Why not ban muslims from editing islam articles then? Obviously they are bias to be pro-islam. Or why not ban Christians from editing Christianity articles, or liberals from editing democratic articles, etc. It is just ridiculous and stupid, and if we did that, we probably wouldn't have any articles on wikipedia, since most people edit what interests them, and most people have a bias on that topic.

It does not matter whether we think Islamophobia exists or not. We can argue over that forever, and that is just further evidence that it is controversial. Islamophobia is controversial because 1. there is doubt as to if islamophobia exists, and 2. there is dispute over what is islamophobia and what is not. If islamophobia does exist, it is no secret that the term is drastically overused, so it still is controversial. Very few of the cases where the term has been used, the term has been used appropriately in my opinion. The vast majority of the time it is just used to bully critics of islam, and dismiss what they say as a form of prejudice (eg. Robert Spencer, Daniel Pipes, etc.). Virtually anything that might make Islam or muslims look bad has been labeled "islamophobic" (eg. Muhammad Cartoons, Pope comments, debate over burka, etc.). These things are not prejudices; they are simply opinions held by some that may be negative of islam, and are often provoked by muslims. That is why Islamophobia is controversial.--sefringle^Talk 01:46, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Please notice that these were not personal attacks against editors: these were attacks against expressed opinions. The only text that may be qualified as pesonal attack is the phrase "poor editors". Even its continuation "with prejudiced viewpoints" is a legit comment, since it is supplied with examples of "prejudiced viewpoints" with explanations. Please remember criticizing ideas and viewpoints must be clearly separated from criticizing editor's personal traits. The two are confused in wikipedia only too often. `'юзырь:mikka 02:09, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but saying some people are prejudice against Islam is making a personal attack.--sefringle^Talk 02:30, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Yawn. WP:RFC/USER is thataway. (Though the bit about Limboot was amusing). Can we get back to the article now? - Merzbow 02:19, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

And your suggestion about its improvement is...? `'юзырь:mikka 02:21, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

MarkB2, no one is making up their own definations here. What issue do you have with the current header? --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 02:26, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

His issue is he doesn't want "controversial" in the header.--sefringle^Talk 02:29, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Sefringle! MarkB2, the use and defination of Islamophobia is not agreed upon by the various sources, hence controversial. If you disagree with those people, it doesnt mean you have to assert 100% that Islamophobia is a genuine term. The word controversial lays out the facts - its not agreed upon by everyone (that doesnt and cannot include us). Look at this way: If some people said that AppleDoo means the color Blue and others disagree, then this is a controversial term. You cant start out an article on AppleDoo by saying that it means Blue. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 02:39, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

"If some people said that AppleDoo means the color Blue and others disagree, then this is a controversial term." does any source assert that Islamophobia is isn't defined as discrimination/prejudice against Islam/Muslims? if the critics do, then they are criticising a different definition, and not the one established by (real) academics. ITAQALLAH 18:02, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it is time to take this issue to mediation.--Sefringle^Talk 22:48, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Mukadderat: I have a degree in English. I've done graduate work in English. If there is an ultimate authority on the English language, it is the OED.

Matt 57: Of all of the definitions of "Islamophobia" I've seen, all of them nearly identicle, none hedge the definition of it twice by inserting "controversial" and "what its proponents see" into a definition that is typically about three words: "prejudice against Muslims." Besides, the header definition as is makes no sense. "What its proponents see?" So the proponents of Islamophobia are the ones criticizing others for having it?

Islamophobia is prejudice against Muslims. Period. Critics who say the term is misused shouldn't have space in the header any more than critics of the use of the term Antisemitism or Racism have space in the header of those articles.

Sefringle: I should be careful about personal attacks, of course. But when people are behaving badly they need a finger in their chest, rhetorically speaking. As far as your convictions that Islamophobia is "drastically overused," I beg to differ. Anyone pointing to an example of bigotry is going to be making a point that is controversial: what is or is not prejudice is usually a debatable point. But when you stick "controversial" into the definition, and then mention what the opponents of the "concept" think right after the definition, and then spend 40% of the header describing the arguments of people who think the term has virtually no legitimacy you give the impression that the entire concept of anti-Muslim prejudice is debatable: which, unfortunately, is what it appears you WANT to do.

Oh, yes, yes, of course, you say, anti-Muslim prejudice exists...somewhere...theoretically speaking...but our culture is so FLOODED with false examples of Islamophobia we should REALLY REALLY emphasize that the term is frequently abused. The article header as it is reflects your views of the frequency and the use of "Islamophobia." That is why it sucks. MarkB2 00:16, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Not all prejudices are as overlabeled as islamophobia is. There is little doubt as to what is antisemitism and what is not (except for New antisemitism) Same thing with racism. But criticism of Judaism is not labeled as antisemitism. However cirticism of Islam is almost always labeled as islamophobia.--Sefringle^Talk 03:43, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

You would have to prove that to me. How often is "almost always?" 99%? 75%? I haven't heard any objective evidence that Islamophopbia is overlabeled, just a bunch of opinions from notable and no so notable people. On the other hand, I'm not sure it's not overlabeled either, just some other opinions. there really doesn't seem to be a consensus but it does seem to me that the critics are in the minority. As far as Judaism is concerned, I'm not sure that criticism of Judaism isn't labeled Antisemitism. Certainly criticism of Israel is frequently labeled antisemitism. Also, criticism of Affirmative action is often labelled as Racism, whether it is or not. Anyway, what is the difference between Antisemitism or Islamophobia and legitimate criticism of either religion? It seems as if that these issues are still disputed. It's also imporetant to consider who is doing the labeling. I'm sure there's someone out there will to label any criticism as predjudice.Umer Al-Amerikee 17:04, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

FWIW, as an outsider that is also dealing with a seperate controvertial issue (Atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki), and suggested solutions to other controvertial pages (Barney Frank), I do not see the need for "alleged" or other hedging in the title or the header. The page of Antisemitism does not have "alleged" in it's title, nor in most of its incidents. I think the "alleged" should move to the issues that have not been yet proven, or that are one-sided attacks, but real instances of antimuslim (or antisemitic) behavior do not get an alleged tag. Yes, some folks construe any act against them as an attack on their group, and some of the examples (the French law to reduce ALL religious symbols, the Flying Imams) should get the alleged tag, but the whole section should not be tarred with the "alleged" label. IMO, of course. And as for overuse of a negative tag, "homophobic" got overused during the gay marriage discussion, and yes, islamophobic is being overused in the media today. When Iran hosted a Holocaust Denial party, and accused critics of being Islamophobic in response, the irony was so thick I had to wipe my TV screen afterwards. But, put the alleged on the incidents that are alleged, not on the whole section, and put the hedging on the criticism section, and not in the title paragraph. CodeCarpenter 20:46, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

A notable Iranian reaction to be added

... to Alleged_acts_of_Islamophobia, this shoudn't be controversial:

After Salman Rushdie was awarded a [[knighthood]] in the [[Queen's Birthday Honours]] in June 2007, the [[Iran]]ian [[Foreign Ministry]] qualified the honoring of "a hated [[apostate]]" as Islamophobic.<ref>{{cite web | url = http://www2.irna.com/en/news/view/line-203/0706177335144730.htm | title = British knighthood for Rushdie, clear sign of Islamophobia | accessdate = 2007-06-17 | publisher = Iranian Foreign Ministry / [[IRNA]] }}</ref>

--tickle me 20:36, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

That is definently proof of the controversy reguarding the term.--Sefringle^Talk 23:27, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

To add this issue shouldn't be controversial, I didn't mean the term itself. --tickle me 02:55, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I support its addition--Sefringle^Talk 19:50, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Mediation

This header issue has gone unresolved long enough. If we are ever going to get the page unprotected without edit warring, I think we need to take it to mediation. --Sefringle^Talk 03:38, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I think mediation might be a good idea although I'm not familiar with it in the Wikipedia context. However, since many of the editors to this page don't seem to want to discuss the page outside their edit summaries, I'm not sure it will work.Umer Al-Amerikee 19:14, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

OK, I'll put in the request for mediation. I'm not completely sure who all the involved parties are, so if I forget to add you, add yourself.--Sefringle^Talk 19:52, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

The mediation link is here.--Sefringle^Talk 23:42, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

German Wikipedia version of this article

A google translation of the German Wikipedia version of this article is here and not suprisingly conforms to a neutral point of view. Addhoc 22:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Also mention that the lead is entirely OR as its not sourced. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 23:08, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

The German language version of Wikipedia has separate articles for both Islamophobia and anti-Islamic sentiment. I believe the English version should have one as well. The current organization of the Islamophobia article on Wikipedia brings into question the notion of the very existence of the possibility of discrimination against people who are Islamic, and that is clearly an absurd notion for an encyclopedia to present. Padishah5000 00:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Like I said, they're not a good example to follow in this case. If they're allowing blatant OR to sit in the Islamophobia article like that, it looks like no one cares whats happening on their article, so please, dont bring up the German article for any example to follow. --Matt57^{(talk•contribs)} 12:36, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay, then what of a second article of anti-Islamic sentiment? After all, Islamophobia certainly is a controversial term, but prejudice, bigotry, defamation and hate crimes against those of Islamic backgrounds, and those seen as being Muslim, certainly is not. Only very extreme ideologues with hate agendas that are anti-Islamic would argue that the very existence and possibility of prejudice and discrimination against someone perceived as being Muslim, does not exist. Padishah5000 19:19, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Islamophobia is just a word to describe the idea. It could have been called anything; the meaning is still the same, and it is just as controversial. Please calm down and stop suggesting that people are prejudice against Islam or are extremists; such accusations are personal attacks, and comments with these accusations will be removed from now on per WP:NPA#Removal of text.--Sefringle^Talk 19:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

So your view is that it is impossible for discrimination and prejudice to exist towards people viewed as being from "Islamic" backgrounds? If need be, I would be more than happy to include hate crime statistics from the U.S and Europe that would quickly clear up the matter. After all, this is the article about just such subject matter. Padishah5000

I didn't say that. Don't put words in my mouth. Please re-read what I wrote and respond to that.--Sefringle^Talk 20:44, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

And its NOT absurd to suggest that Islamophobia doesnt exist or is not a valid term. When RS have said so it must be reported and thus made clear that its a controversial term. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 12:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

To suggest that prejudice and discrimination against people of Islamic backgrounds and origins does not exist in the western world is only the view held by extreme bigots and racists with related hate agendas. It is one thing to argue over a certain terminology and its usage, such as "Islamophobia", but another thing to suggest that discrimination against a highly visible minority group does not and cannot exist. Anti-Islamic views and sentiments are very real, and so is the results of those views, such as hate crimes and employment discrimination. Padishah5000 19:19, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Please refraim from calling certian views extremist and racist. Such allegations are personal attacks agains't all who might have that view.--Sefringle^Talk 20:44, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Certain views are extremist and racist, and do not belong in an encyclopedia such as this. I will continue to point out such extremist views when I seem them. Padishah5000 19:45, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Padishah5000, your comment illustrates precisely why islamophobia is a controversial term. It links "prejudice and discrimination against people of Islamic backgrounds" with "Anti-Islamic views". It is quite possible to be strongly opposed to Islam as an idea with genuine commitment against both discrimination and to hostility towards people who hold that belief.Dejvid 16:10, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but then does that not go far beyond the purpose of an encyclopedic article? Does that not then justify a separate article on "Anti-Islamic Sentiment"? After all, there is very real discrimination and hatred towards those who are viewed as coming from Islamic backgrounds in the west, and many have suffered for as a result. I should know. That element of the article is not open to debate. Seeking the opinion of the likes of Robert Spencer on the reality of discrimination against immigrants and people of culturally Islamic backgrounds is akin to asking David Duke if he feels that discrimination against people who are of Jewish, Catholic, Mexican, or African-American backgrounds is a reality. Yes, the term "Islamophobe" may be used to silence criticism and opposition by some in the political arena, but that is true of all "phobias" and "antis" one can think of. The fact that the centerpiece of the article is to question the very existence of the possibility that discrimination and prejudicial thought exists against those perceived as Muslim is a travesty, to say the least. Padishah5000 19:45, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

There is undoubtedly discrimination against Muslims. The problem is in choosing a term which implies that there is an automatic link between prejudice against Muslims and opposition to Islam as an idea. There is also a problem with a term that labels opposition to Islam as by definition irrational. Compare Anti-communism with Communism-phobia. Would not such a term be, in itself, controversial?Dejvid 20:48, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Biased lead

The article starts by saying the term is controversial, and quotes a writing by none other than the infamous Robert Spencer on that bit. I'm removing it. If every article that is considered controversial by some extremist had the same bit included in the lead, I wouldn't mind keeping it here. Until then, it goes! Lixy 10:30, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

• AGREED. Quoting Robert Spencer in a lead on the topic of Islamophobia/anti-Islamic sentiment is absurd. Padishah5000 20:18, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

So what if its Robert Spencer? Its a controversial term because reliable sources have disagreed on its meaning.

There's a mediation thing going on right now to which you will also probably have to agree on when its done. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 11:53, 9 July 2007 (UTC)