Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates

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Five noms

Epbr123 (talk · contribs) currently has five FAC nominations: 1) Sale, Greater Manchester, 2) Westgate-on-Sea, 3) Whitstable, 4) Birchington-on-Sea, and 5) Herne Bay, Kent. On his/her fourth nom, I called to his/her attention the instructions at FAC, requesting one nomination at at time. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:37, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I sometimes nominate two at a time, but five is a little too much. Two at the most, please. On the other hand, one must respect the enthusiasm. — Deckiller 21:51, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

This is an instruction we should be happy to flout if the nominator is engaged. Marskell 22:32, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Well considering the amount of disatisfaction due to the slump in the FAC right now, multiple FACs don't sound too hard. Personally, one makes me stressed enough, but I don't see anything wrong with two, maybe even three if it is multiple reviewers. If the man can do five, why not?--Clyde (talk) 22:35, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

What slump in FAC? Nominations are running at all-time highs, with the number of noms on the page often approaching or passing 80, making it hard to give due attention to all of them, resulting in numerous complaints from dissatisfied nominators, who get little feedback. Why does one nominator get attention on five articles, while others go complaining (remember that Zleitzen left Wiki in disgust, as no one responded to his FAC, while he reviewed FACs of many others) ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:54, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I've considered nominating more than one FAC, but haven't yet had two ready to go at the same time. I wouldn't do it unless I felt I could give the responses the attention they needed. I understand that there may be a shortage of reviewers, but wouldn't that simply extend the review period, rather than require a reduction in the rate of submissions? Mike Christie (talk) 23:04, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

(another edit conflict) Above reply: The FAC is in a is in a slump because there is a decrease of active editors in proporation of nominators. I haven't decided if I condone or condemn a whopping five FACs, but I don't like the idea of discouraging someone from improving this encyclopedia. Perhaps ask him to remove a couple of the weaker ones and instead ask him to put some time reviewing other stagnating FACs. I certaintly see the lack of reviewers.--Clyde (talk) 23:16, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Deckiller. The person cannot do five - Herne Bay, Kent for example has a copyediting concern from May 19th which the editor has still failed to reply to while Whitstable has one from the 21st which the editor hasn't replied to. This is a waste of FAC's resources in my opinion, as gaining an FA certainly isn't as easy as just putting an FAC tag on a talk page. LuciferMorgan 17:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

If you had read the Herne Bay, Kent fac properly, you will see that I've been waiting for a review by the LoCE as requested. There is nothing more I should be doing to the article. Regarding the Whitstable fac, the reviewer's last words were "..but I've gotta go for the moment. I'll continue reviewing when I get back to the computer." I was waiting for him to finish the review before replying. I want an apology. Epbr123 18:18, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

You aren't getting an apology, since I stand by what I'm saying and honestly feel you think FAC is rather easy. It isn't. You're the one who nominated the Herne Bay, Kent article for FAC, not the LoCE, so it's up to you to bring it up to standard and not them - so yes there is something more you should be doing to the article. Have you even considered that it may be failed before the LoCE even find the time to take a look? I read the FAC perfectly well thanks. If you wish to make a comment such as that, my reply is have you even read this; "Please do not post more than one nomination at a time, as this may make it difficult to do justice to each."? Either you haven't, or you've plainly ignored it.

As concerns the reviewer's last words on Whitstable, you haven't even struck out the examples he's given despite it being given 3 days ago. I think 5 noms all at once takes the biscuit and you cannot handle 5 - you're hoping that not many people list a load of problems. If a load of problems were listed at each nom, you'd be swamped under and wouldn't be able to address them. So no apology for you - perhaps it should be you apologising to all the other poor FACers who actually can address an article's problems but are unfortunately yet to have any comments? That's my opinion on it. LuciferMorgan 18:40, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Given your current ban for incivility, this doesn't suprise me. Epbr123 18:43, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

How long did it take you to think of this response? Not long. If you don't like the truth, then don't demand an apology. Furthermore, don't use the LoCE as an excuse for not addressing your article's FA concerns. LuciferMorgan 18:50, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Epbr123, baiting another editor by bringing up past bans isn't civil. I just wanted to let you know that waiting for LoCE isn't really a very viable option; they rarely come through. You could be waiting a very long time. You can't put up five FACs and then hope LoCE will edit them while you wait; you would be better off looking for your own copyedit resources. If you don't have a copyeditor, waiting for five ce's from LoCE isn't a really good plan. They could get the impression you put up the FACs to jump the line to the FAC/FAR category at LoCE (which they don't pay much attention to either, BTW). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:55, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I am going to continue trying to get articles to FA standard whether you like it or not. The reviewer said "someone else to copy-edit the whole text, please." The LoCE are the ideal people to do that and probably the only people willing to do it. Once, a reviewer in one of my past facs actually specifically requested a copy-edit by the LoCE. Epbr123 22:11, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I would like to point out that it is actually very easy to handle five FACs at once. My Herne Bay article has been up for nomination for a month and has only had three comments. During that time, I have been able to also write four other FAC articles. The one nomination at a time rule is ridiculous and there's no way I'll start writing a sixth FAC if I'm going to have to wait five months to nominate it. Epbr123 22:38, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

A question related to this

After my exchange with this nominator, I read one of the nominator's articles at FAC and voted an oppose. The nominator then replied that I have a vendetta against them and said they will not respond to my criteria concerns, despite them being actionable. Does this mean then that if I express valid criteria concerns per WP:FA? at any of these 5 noms, that my vote can still be disregarded under the nominator's claims? I'm seeking clarification, as I hope this isn't the case. LuciferMorgan 19:02, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Of course not. If the complaint is actionable, it should count, regardless of who said it (and I'm sure Raul will see it the same way). Nominators can't pick and choose what they have to respond to. Trebor 19:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Trebor - personality conflicts are irrelavant. If the objection is actionable (and FWIW, the more specific the object is, the better), then the nominator should feel obliged to fix it, or contest the objection and explain why (e.g, "no, the manual of policy says to do it exactly as it already is"). Raul654 19:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that upon reading some of the articles further, I have criteria issues with several. Given the fact that I recently had a block for 24hrs for reasons I need not to go into, I'm wary of being accused of WP:POINT which would not bode too well on myself given the circumstances, and could result in another block. LuciferMorgan 19:14, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead and state the criteria issues. If they're valid I won't accuse you of WP:POINT. Epbr123 22:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

don't worry, i quit wikipedia Epbr123 19:15, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Don't do that. I'm not saying I feel your contributions are meagre as they're actually quite worthwhile, and all 5 of your FACs given minor work definitely have the potential for FA status. LuciferMorgan 19:17, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I must say, following your logic does suggest vindictiveness though you may not have intended it that way (After my exchange with this nominator.....and voted an oppose.) - given the circumstances and if you felt the issues were manageable may have been more diplomatic to leave as comment rather than oppose. cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 22:42, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

It's a fair point, but that's why I wished to clear the air here and stress I am not making a point to disrupt Wikipedia. LuciferMorgan 13:29, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

• This is another reason why it's best to take it one (or two, depending on how many editors are collaborating) FA nomination(s) at a time; it can be stressful to deal with multiple opposes, especially if they're by the same people. You begin to think that they are on a vendetta when they aren't, you start to question yourself, you get stressed and burn out, and you end up leaving or taking a lengthy break. — Deckiller 16:00, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
  • • It's not FACs that make me want to leave, it's arguments like this. Epbr123 16:25, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I don't understand why our instructions request one nom at a time if we are going to allow five. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:01, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Change the instructions then. Epbr123 16:07, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

If the instructions represent a consensus it should be OK for any editor to remove a nomination from FAC if the nominator has another FAC going. If there's no consensus the instructions should be changed (unless this part of the instructions is at Raul654's discretion).

I don't have a strong opinion either way. If experienced reviewers such as Sandy feel there is a detrimental effect on FAC if a reviewer has multiple noms, I'd take that very seriously. As a nominator, rather than a reviewer, I want to do things in a way that makes the reviewers' lives easier. Mike Christie (talk) 16:14, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

It would help if Epbr would have his article copyedited before bringing them to FAC, considering they are getting ce comments; waiting for LoCE just isn't a reliable option. It's hard to get through 80 FACs at a time, and any editor who has prepared one FAC carefully shouldn't get short-shifted because someone else puts up five. I'm not sure I have a strong opinion on the instructions, though — I can certainly think of editors who could bring five well-sourced copyedited articles to FAC at once, while responding to concerns. I'm just not sure Epbr is able to address the concerns of five at once, as it doesn't appear s/he's doing so. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:29, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Total nonsense. Nearly every FAC has copyedit problems. Epbr123 16:37, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

All three of my FACs required some copyediting, but there was no delay; I did it myself, or had editors (or reviewers) willing to chip in. I think the problem is not the copyediting but the need to go to LoCE. And Epbr123, please don't take this discussion as criticism; everyone here wants to see all of your noms make it to FA. The discussion is about the best way to get there. Mike Christie (talk) 16:41, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and LoCE looked promising when Gzkn started it, but he has since left, and it hasn't really taken off — they don't keep up, even with FAC/FAR requests. Waiting for a copyedit from LoCE just isn't viable. Someone with five noms up would be better off finding other copyedit resources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:06, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

So you agree that there's nothing wrong with having five noms at once? Epbr123 13:12, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I think two might be reasonable in exceptional cases. As I said, I know editors who could bring five well-prepared noms to FAC, and address issues raised as well. You haven't addressed issues yet even in your first nom (at least the last time I checked). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:32, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

That was not the first of my multi-nominations. My first has already been promoted to FA, disproving your points. Epbr123 15:05, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

It would have been a lot simpler if the reviewer had said exactly what was wrong with the article instead of just saying get a copy-edit. Epbr123 17:12, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that in that case the reviewer would become a copyeditor. And most FAC reviewers just don't have the time to do that for all the articles they review. MLilburne 17:22, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

LoCE

(outdent) It does seem to me that copyediting is a little different from the other kinds of criticism. Most other points can be listed in less time than it takes to fix them; listing a copyediting problem can take a sentence where the fix might be just to change a word (or even a punctuation mark). This is why copyediting comments are frequently of the form "here are a couple of examples, but the whole article needs work" which is frustrating for editors whose antennae are not fine-tuned to detect prose in need of help. I don't know what the fix is, though LoCE would be a big help if it worked faster. I can think of solutions I'd implement if we functioned as a hierarchical company, not a wiki (e.g. Raul refers articles needing copyediting to LoCE which is then required to prioritize them) but I don't see a good process for our current situation. The result is that editors who can get prose to a sufficiently high level have an advantage at FAC over those who find their prose standards aren't up to those of the FAC reviewers. Is there a wiki-process way to fix this? Mike Christie (talk) 13:24, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Listing examples of bad prose (and then relating them to general problems) is also a "teach a man to fish" problem. Telling people how they can improve their prose now and in the future is better than fixing it for them, in my opinion. CloudNine 14:25, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there is a way to fix this. Encourage editors to find copyeditors before they come to FAC, as Tony's prose exercises do. Of course editors who can either do it themselves, or had someone else run through, have an advantage. FAs are supposed to be compelling and brilliant — that's the point, isn't it? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:32, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Isn't the best place to find copyeditors at the LoCE? Or should I have to pester individual editors and bribe them with barnstars? Epbr123 14:39, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps I haven't made myself clear enough :-) NO, LoCe is not the best place to find copyeditors. You might get lucky and someone there might take an interest in your topic, but in your case, it doesn't seem to be happening. The Project had a lot of steam when it first started out, but that died out when Gzkn left, and LoCE hasn't kept pace. A big problem at LoCE is that articles show up there that have far bigger problems than prose, so copyeditors there may be wasting their time working on articles that are uncited, full of original research, or outright copyright violations. Whether your article will get attention there is random, and has a lot to do with whether someone is interested in your topic. You would be better served to find your own resources (read User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a), especially since you're looking to have up to five articles copyedited. You need collaborators — sorry you think of it as bribery, but if you can't ce yourself (as I can't), you need to have people you work with (as I do). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:47, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

This is related to the process problem I mentioned earlier, and which I still think exists. One can visualize a flowchart for articles:

• A: Does it have bigger problems than prose? If yes, work on those problems; if no, go to B.
• B: Does it have copyedit problems? If yes, go to C, if no, it passes (at whatever level is being considered, FA, GA, etc.)
• C: Can you copyedit satisfactorily yourself? If so, do it and go to B; else go to D.
• D: . . . and this is where the gap is.

If we have a limited pool of copyediting resources, I suggest they should prioritze articles that only need copyediting, and should coordinate with other processes intended to improve articles, such as GAC and FAC. Under the LoCE approach, there is no filter. There is a FAC/FAR list but it doesn't guarantee prioritization; and even then there is no guarantee that an article on that list doesn't have other problems, as you say. I don't know how to fix this problem but I think it's real and will continue to hinder editors until we figure out a better way to deal with it. Mike Christie (talk) 15:32, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I've found the best way to do it is have two or three trusted people who are willing to pitch in when ready and able to do so. FA-level copyediting, while useful, is hardly as important as copyediting a B-class or start-class article anyway, since the majority of articles that get to this stage are in excellent shape and are more than readable and useful to the reader. So I dunno what the answer is, but I'm just glad I have a number of people I can turn to. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:43, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

The single most effective means of garnering copyedit help is (and probably always will be) contacting users directly on their talk pages. People are more likely to respond to personalized requests and less likely to let a copyedit promise slide. The LoCE has removed their members list for some reason, but you can find 150 names in the history. Quite likely, some of those 150 are actually no good at copyediting, so check the mainspace edits of the person you're asking. In project resources on WP:1FAPQ we have four names; another 40 would be nice. Marskell 15:52, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I used to try to keep the FAC/FAR list updated at LoCE, until I found I was the only one doing it, and it wasn't helping. I was keeping them apprised of which noms *only* needed copyediting (hence, were worthy of priority attention), and moving old requests out of the list. LoCE just doesn't have anyone regularly doing those two things, the list often means nothing (including articles which aren't FAC/FAR, have already been promoted or demoted, or have needs beyond ce), so I finally decided my efforts were wasted and stopped maintaining there. LoCE worked well when Gzkn was shepharding it; if someone would begin to tend and shephard this work, maybe it would take off again ? The FAC/FAR list at LoCE should be only current noms which have satisfied all other issues. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:03, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps as a project the LoCE should be scrapped in favour of a list of names? Add your name, areas of interest, and perhaps post an example of something you've edited. Marskell 16:10, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea in my opinion. At present, the LoCE is misleading in that some feel they'll come along and definitely copyedit your FAC so to speak (a problem of course). LuciferMorgan 19:36, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Reviewing the situation, I'm thinking also it should be scrapped in favor of a list of editors. Why have boatloads of subpar articles appeared at FAC lately, increasing the review burden here? Is it only because of the overload at Peer Review and GAC, or is it because nominators think (even though it's not working that way at LoCE, as they really aren't getting to articles) that's the way to jump the copyedit line at LoCE, and get help with their articles? I'm suspecting that some of the SNOWBALL oppose cases here may be fed by the mistaken notion that a FAC nom will get a FAC/FAR copyedit at LoCE, and is faster than going through PR or GAC. If the FAC overload gives us less time to devote to prepared candidates, LoCE is part of the problem rather than part of the solution. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:39, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I like the list of names idea as it's smarter - eg. if a copyeditor says their main area is music for example, you can then contact them and they'd have more enthusiasm for the article. I'd say it's mainly PR that's the problem though, because some inexperienced editors wish to improve their article but do not know how to do so. With PR it's a roll of the dice - sometimes you get a load of feedback, sometimes you don't get any. GAC, again, is another reason why. Sometimes subpar GAs get passed, leaving the GA nominator think; well if it passed GA, what's stopping it pass FA? Of course when they nominate, they discover it's a whole different world. Really, we need a system where inexperienced FACers are successfully coached with the skills and resources to raise their article's standard. On a final note, can I please ask FAC reviewers not to recommend someone list their article at LoCE? It gives the nominator a false impression that the LoCE will come along and save the day, so they sit back and wait for them to come along, only for their article to be failed before anyone gets round to the task. LuciferMorgan 03:15, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Eats, shoots and leaves

Wow, I think I have a simple comment which is probably covered already but if an editor is prepared to push more than one FA through at a time then cool. If the same editor persists and the FA noms are continually rejected then maybe a suggestion to the editor would be fine. As an experiment I've been watching new entries at WP:FAC and reviewed all of the five new articles added in three days. Ultimately the consensus will drive positive FA results where necessary, any attention to articles near GA/FA is always a good thing regardless. So, in conclusion, I'm advocating anyone who feels positive about promoting any article. WP:FAC lacks reviewers. I'm off to Cuba. The Rambling Man 22:25, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Users can have more than one article on FAC and have them pass. Ask Hink, for example. Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 20:46, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

True, just depends on who the editor is, but Hink's an exception to the rule to be fair. LuciferMorgan 23:01, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

As I said above, I can think of several who can do it, and have demonstrated they can. But we have an instruction for those who can't or haven't demonstrated they can. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:15, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I've just reverted epbr's sixth FAC nom at once, as it appears pointy to make a sixth nom as discussion is ongoing about five noms. If we are going to allow six unresolved noms (several that need copyediting), then let's just remove the instruction asking for one nom at a time. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:15, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Do you realise I can just get one of the article's other editors to nominate it? Further proof that the one nom rule is pointless. Epbr123 23:48, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

If the articles have other editors, perhaps they'll help with the copyediting, wikilinking, and other needs instead of nominating more articles? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:53, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

How old are you? Epbr123 00:56, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Why does that matter? Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 00:57, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I need to know if I should make allowances. Epbr123 00:59, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I quit. The sad bastard is now opposing all my facs. Nice POINT. Bye forever. Epbr123 01:07, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Had you nommed them one at a time, you could have prevented having the same issues in all five, by learning from the first. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:39, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm SandyGeorgia does have a point - I've learnt a lot from my two FACs and learnt a lot in nurturing future ones also. The editor has removed all their FACs linked to the main FAC page from the page - what happens now? Does someone reinsert them, do they get failed, or something else? Just curious. And another point I have is this; for using the word "b******" in response to another editor, isn't an admin going to issue a WP:CIVIL warning on the editor's page or something? I wasn't aware such words are allowed on Wikipedia talk pages... LuciferMorgan 02:36, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

You must be kidding ... Perhaps you've forgotten the time another editor told me to fuck off in full view of numerous admins and several members of the arbcom :-) Really, let's not go there. It's not necessary. Anyway, this is another problem with five noms at once. One at a time, he could have learned. Five at a time means there were five for me to review on my Sunday night review, and they all had the same issues. Waste of his time and mine. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:44, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I would've got blocked though if I'd said that, but as you said let's not go there... As concerns the nominator, I feel your judgment is correct. We need some sort of like "expertise" list though in a way - for example, I'm alright at reviewing music articles and I feel I could help FAC etc. in reviewing music articles. Others have other areas they're good at, so it'd be wise using this to Wikipedia's advantage. LuciferMorgan 03:23, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Heck, I don't even mind being called a bastard; I just wish he hadn't asked how old I am :-) Now that's an insult. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:31, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia, I've decided to come back as I'm not going to let you drive away a good editor just so you can attempt to prove a point. I will start fixing the couple of typos you pointed out in each of your extensive reviews of my FACs. LuciferMorgan, you can remove your oppose to Herne Bay as User:Tony1's concerns have been met. Was that really a valid reason to oppose anyway? Epbr123 10:08, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I don't mind Epbr123 submitting as many noms as he feels he can handle. It's in his interest to keep it down to a sensible number. He appears to have the time to handle concerns (see the Herne Bay FAC, where he addressed all my concerns pretty quickly), and he's actually submitting pretty good articles (although some would have been more suited to a peer review beforehand). CloudNine 10:44, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

This is a reviewer workload problem. As Epbr should be noticing from his reviews, a handful of people do the vast majority of the reviewing. It's thankless—you help somebody else get the little star but you don't get one of your own. If 10% of the reviews on a page are from one person, then that person is increasing the workload for others and ensuring other reviews on the page get less attention. Thus, it's not just in his interest to limit it to a sensible number but in the interest of FAC itself. One at a time need not be a hard rule and we don't want to hold up improvements for procedural reasons, but six is simply too many. I'd suggest a rule to the effect "do not add a second review until concerns in a first have been substantially addressed."

On a last note, asking someone how old they are is both creepy and rude. If Epbr wants to get beyond this he might apologize and return to commenting on content. There are nuts-and-bolts issues in the nominations that need to be addressed, and thus lessons he might learn to apply to future work. Marskell 11:03, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Whatever. Epbr123 11:06, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. So what should we be making allowances for here: Sandy's age or your immaturity? Marskell 11:13, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Whatever. Epbr123 11:14, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

It would appear the latter. Marskell 11:15, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Whatever, hypocrite. Your concerns with the Birchington article have been addressed. Review please. Epbr123 11:18, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Coupling an insult with a demand for further review doesn't seem likely to garner a constructive response, does it? Khalas, as the Arabs say. I won't be returning to the reviews, but good luck with them. Marskell 12:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I thought you'd opposed. Feel free to not return to them. I don't need luck.Epbr123 12:56, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, you still need to remove your oppose from Sale, Greater Manchester. Epbr123 15:48, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

If it wasn't clear, I'm not going to return to your reviews because I don't want to interact with you. Marskell 22:29, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh right. It might be best to remove the oppose though or people might think you're being vindictive. Epbr123 23:24, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry? You ain't sorry, so don't patronize us. You are lucky - you called an admin a "hypocrite", and you could've been blocked for that, not to mention for calling Sandy a "sad b******". Epbr123 irrational behaviour here and at FAC is disrupting FAC, and I wish to know much longer it will be tolerated by others. LuciferMorgan 15:34, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry to have made you upset and I'm sorry if I have caused any disruption. Do you think you could get round to re-evaluating your FAC oppose comments, please? Epbr123 15:40, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I will do so indeed. I'm saying this nicely, and as a person who has been blocked twice for incivility (ie. I know when the boundary has been pushed or not). I'll take a look at my oppose comments, but if I keep them it is because I feel my opposes are actionable. I would recommend though that for all the book sources you've used to use specific page numbers - the 1c criteria says "Claims are supported with specific evidence and external citations", and I would argue that not having page numbers fails to be specific. As concerns Sandy, she isn't trying to make a point - she comments at more FACs and FARs than anyone I know, and I certainly don't relish the Wiki work she undertakes. Even if you feel she is making a point (which she isn't), all you have to do is address her concerns really. Nobody can oppose without concerns, but Sandy has expressed concerns. LuciferMorgan 17:26, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I am unable to provide page numbers for most of the book refs as they were found years ago by other editors. I get all my research from the internet. Epbr123 17:51, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh right. Hmm I'm honestly unsure what to do in this instance, but please mention this at all the FACs so reviewers are aware of this when requesting page numbers. LuciferMorgan 22:14, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Epbr, as to maturity, please don't be removing and reinstating noms at whim; last night, I updated three or four different pages to reflect your withdrawn work, and those will now need to be changed. You can make personal comments calling me young, old, bastard, whatever, but please refrain from accusing me of making a point in my reviews, as that addresses my *work* here and it's not how I work; I review many articles all the time, often in one sitting on the weekend, and all of your articles have the same issues. Adding a sixth nom when people have objected to five, on the other hand, does seem pointy. Please don't just "fix a couple of typos"; comments are samples of problems throughout. And, just a note, I will be traveling this week with limited and very slow internet access, so please allow time for me to strike objects if I'm not immediately around. Next I shall go see what other changes I need to make to reflect your reinstated noms. I'm sorry to see some of the characterizations you've made throughout this discussion (which is really a discussion of how to solve some bottleneck issues at FAC), but glad to see you've decided to continue working to produce featured content.SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:29, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, I corrected everything to reflect your reinstated noms except LoCE; do you want to re-add your articles there? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:36, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, please. You have been extremely offensive about my work and I still believe you are trying to make a point. Epbr123 12:41, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Reinstated at LoCE; I believe that should be everything now. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:46, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

By the way, your problems with my articles have been fixed. Epbr123 13:03, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I will revisit them before I travel, but not right this minute. Thanks to this extra work, I haven't yet made it through my watchlist this morning :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:32, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

FAC instructions

I added Marskell's suggested wording to Template:FAC-instructions ("do not add a second review until concerns in a first have been substantially addressed"); pls review. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:39, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Being that all noms start off without any opposes, that wouldn't prevent people starting multiple noms at the same time. Epbr123 13:50, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, I think it's clear what Sandy/Marskell meant, but how about this wording: "Please do not add a second review until the first nomination has gained some support and there are no significant remaining concerns"? Mike Christie (talk) 13:53, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Now it's " Do not add a second nomination until the first has gained support and concerns have been substantially addressed, as this may make it difficult to do justice to each. " SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:13, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Noms in multiple places

I run through every new nomination at FAC (daily when I can) to make sure everything is in place on the article talk page for the eventual GimmeBot conversion to {{ArticleHistory}} (anyone want to take over that task while I'm traveling next week)? This includes making sure the fac template is at the the top of the page (many nominators forget to add it), oldid is identified in the GA template (if you have Dr pda's articlehistory script, this is easy), everything in Dr pda's articlehistory script is on the talk page, dyk is added to the template, peer reviews are archived, and old facfaileds are correctly dealt with, archived and listed on the new fac (they almost never are, except for those since about Feb, when GimmeBot started up).

I am seeing something way too often that we may need to address in our instructions (I may be the only one seeing this, since I'm the one running through the talk pages of the noms). Too many times, an article is listed at peer review, GAC and FAC all at the same time. (Yes, the workload issues are a concern to me — we have scarce resources working on one article in three places at a time, and only a few people doing the archiving, correcting the talk pages, etc.) Can we add something to our instructions specifically saying not to submit here if you are currently at peer review or GAC? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:15, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

What do you do if you nominate an article for FAC, and then someone requests that a peer review be done during the FAC? That happenned during the surface weather analysis FAC, and it seemed to work out fine. Different people were involved in the FAC and peer review. Thegreatdr 13:20, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

In that case, you have two choices: withdraw the nom, so that you can go to peer review instead, or stick it out and hope you can address all the issues here, even though they are substantial. Personally, I don't recommend peer review unless the article seems so unprepared for FAC that it doesn't seem like it can get there from here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:34, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Sandy - peer review already has an instruction saying to remove the PR if the article's at FAC. It should be added indeed per Sandy's reasoning. LuciferMorgan 15:39, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Ditto..cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 20:01, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Encouraging more reviewers

Would there be any value in having a list of prolific contributors to FAC, as a sort of recognition of service? I'm thinking of a parallel to Wikipedia:List of Wikipedians by featured article nominations, which is semi-automatically maintained. It would be possible for a bot to scan all featured article nominations and count contributions. I'm not familiar with how FAC worked in the past, but bringing it up to date would be a one-off problem anyway. Thereafter it would only require a daily or weekly update to scan all the FAC noms and increment the counts. I suppose people could game this with short, pointless comments, but I don't think anyone would bother. And if there's a chance it would increase real participation, then it's worth the risk. Comments? Mike Christie (talk) 19:15, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

game for this idea.(disclaimer: selfish motives as i toiled hard over the last couple of weeks in FAC and FLC) Kalyan 19:23, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I like the idea. Not only will it display volunteer work and encourage some sort of friendly competition to boost feedback, but it will help FA writers to locate those who focus on certain topics (such as fictional, location, animal, etc) or common problems (such as prose, references, etc). — Deckiller 19:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

The problem is determining how to make it useful and accurate. — Deckiller 19:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that is needed or would be productive. It would be a bad example of editcountitis (and bound to be skewed towards me because my eyesight requires me to change my comments often, and it takes me three posts to say what some can say in one, because my prose sucks). IMO, it's more important to look at causes of the bottleneck. I'll try to give an example. Marskell's Cougar came to FAC prepared. That is the kind of article it would be nice to read, help fine tune, give input on ... really work to help achieve Wiki's finest. Instead, to his one prepared FAC, there are dozens of articles that come to FAC unprepared, taking LOTS of time to review or comment on fundamental things that should have been addressed at peer review or GAC. Each one of these noms also carries "overhead" to administer (see thread above). The unprepared articles chew up a lot of time, and the well-prepared articles may get less and less attention. I spend many hours reviewing and providing feedback on articles that have basic, peer review type problems, and lodge a lot of Opposes. But I rarely get to lodge a Support, because to Support Cougar means I need time to read it "cover to cover". In other words, the better articles get shortshift, as so much time is taken up doing basic work that could be handled at peer review. IMO, that's the bottleneck, and acknowledging contributions won't address that problem. I haven't thought through how to solve this problem, but faster removal of the Snowball Opposes might help (so we'd have more time to focus on the prepared FACs and discouarge some of the driveby noms), and some means of strengthening peer review. How about implementing something similar to your proposal at peer review, to get the fundamental issues addressed there ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:38, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm actually rather surprised that my template hasn't really helped. Perhaps one (very minor) solution is to spread that template, along with the FAR urgents, by suggesting that users place it on their user/user talk pages. I also agree that faster removal of snowball opposes is a good idea. Perhaps we should also enforce a "one FAC nomination per week" rule. — Deckiller 19:43, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Few editors have linked to those templates (either FAC or FAR). I don't need the template, because I sit down once or twice a week, start at the bottom of the list (oldest) and go through all of them. One problem with proliferating the template would be getting ... you know the type ... commentary that doesn't have anything to do with WP:WIAFA (invalid opposes and "I like it" support). I still think the key is to figure out how to strengthen peer review, so we can focus here on finetuning and not have to do so much basic review. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:48, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

• Maybe more of the basics problems should be sorted out at GA reviews. Or maybe the FAC page could have a link to a list of common problems found with FAC articles. Epbr123 19:57, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

GAC recently had a rework of the criteria that has helped, I think. I see no reason why the proposal above could not be duplicated at PR and GAC, though. GAC would present a few problems because of the way the page works, but it might be possible to get a reasonably close number. PR works like FAC so it should be easier.

Sandy, I agree that strengthening articles before they get here is best, but is there any objection to encouraging reviewers in all three places? Mike Christie (talk) 20:12, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

(After 3 edit conflicts, and three frozen screens where I lost it all ... now where was I?  :-) On common problems, others have suggested that, but it would amount to repeating WP:MOS and WP:WIAFA, since the common problems are 1a, 1c and all of 2. On GA, I see it as part of the problem, not part of the solution. Since anyone can confer GA, it means nothing, and often editors come here within hours or days of passing GA, not recognizing that GA does not an FA make. Encouraging reviewers in all 3 places? I'd hate to see any sort of editcountitis rewarded here, as we may get useless commentary as a result. But I do think rewarding input at peer review might help, and is really needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:16, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that it would hurt here (or at GAC), but it does seem that there's a consensus that it could help at PR. I'll drop a note over there and link to it from here and see what people think; if there's support, I'll post a note to WP:BOTREQ. Mike Christie (talk) 20:24, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, I posted this note at PR. Mike Christie (talk) 20:31, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

On Mike's initial idea, it would skew to Sandy at the moment (who needs to be cloned, with the clones then implanted with different skill sets—ha!), but if it were counting sigs rather than edits it wouldn't skew to people who do three minors to correct their own typos. So I think it's a good idea. It could be a really useful tool for people to know who to ping. (Or maybe it would just overload those reviewers further?). Marskell 21:56, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

oh, thanks, you put out that list, and what happens to my talk page (YIKES)!!! (I even get requests to copyedit, and have to tell people I Can't Do That :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:11, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it might be worthwhile to encourage people who have nominated FACs and successfully got them promoted to do more reviewing, the reason being two-fold: first, their article being promoted was thanks to the work of reviewers in the first place, so they should give something back; second, people who have written sucessful articles are likely to be good writers and have good eyes for what's good writing and what's not. This may tackle the problem of not having enough reviewers and improves the quality of reviews. SeleneFN 03:08, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we can make them come back, and there's no shortage of people reviewing for 1a. The problem is a shortage of people reviewing for 1b, 1c, 2, and 3. Everyone likes to comment on the prose, and I come along a week later, and find they were commenting on and Supported prose that is based on non-reliable sources. There's several of those up now. Checking for reliability of sources — and a spot check that sources actually support the text — is time consuming and tedious. That is the work that isn't getting done, as well as the tedious, boring comments about the MOS issues that are wrong. If it were just about reading the article and commenting on the prose, I don't think we'd have a problem, and if others were checking 1c and 2, I'd get to read and Support some nice prose every now and then, too. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:50, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd have to agree that the content comprehensiveness is the main problem and sometimes POV content balance, as almost anybody can tell with language issues (at least basic ones), since it is topic knowledge independent, whereas with the content, only a small group of people in that realm will be able to comment. Adam Gilchrist was sailing through until I noted some notable events which were not covered. And some factually uncited stuff is slipping through. I can think of a few FACs that were crusing despite having some paragraphs with no cites; they were added midway through but could easily have snuck through. Blnguyen (cranky admin anniversary) 06:03, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Sections within FAC pages

Moved from Wikipedia talk:Featured article criteria

Does anyone else object to the increasing segmentation by nominators of the pages in this room? I find it irritating to have to wonder whether to place my comment half-way through, at the end of the first segement, or right at the bottom, where it might not be read.

There's also my suspicion that some nominators have used sectioning to cordon off debates they don't like.

I see nothing wrong with banning the practice. Tony 10:58, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I hate them, agree with you, and IIRC, Raul has removed some before. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:50, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, subsectioning causes me irritation when I go to do the promotions. I don't think an absolute prohibition is necessary, but I would like to see the practice strongly discouraged unless there's an obvious need. Raul654 01:59, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

So Raul, is this better: "The splitting of FAC pages into subsections is strongy discouraged unless there are compelling reasons for doing so"? But then, who wants to get into a debate with wilful nominators about what compelling reasons are. Tony 04:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by Cas Liber

Sometimes helpful if the discussion is a really long one..cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 12:59, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, this proves my point precisely: I don't want my comment to fall under this subheading, so you're making me locate a precise position somewhere in the middle of the section, and to carriage-return a few times to fit it in. Really long discussions still take up just as much room when segemented into subsections (more, indeed). I'd still rather have a continuous page; it makes for a simpler structure and prevents attempts to fence off information in ways that suit the nominator. The other thing I'd love to ban is those ugly, humungous green ticks, but that might be going too far ... Tony 14:20, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

MY gosh, yes ! I think this tradition of separating comments with a section heading got started at peer review. It makes sense there because one reviewer enters comments, yet there's no need to come back and strike, etcetera, as there is here. It doesn't work here, and those green tick marks are awful as well. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:25, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

You have my adamant support for getting rid of this practice, which is particularly annoying when the user puts a fancy sig or links in the section header. I've found ---- to be perfectly acceptable for separating comments. Pagrashtak 18:32, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I only find a problem when it causes the FAC table of contents to become even longer, and that can be dealt with {{TOClimit}}. Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 04:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

(I was having a bit of a laugh :) )cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 05:12, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Quality Control

I was wondering if it would be better to only allow good articles to be nominated. this would reduce FA nominations that need GA critiques, and reduce clutter on the FA nomination page. Oldag07 15:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

That moves the clutter to the GAC page, which is already weighed down with nominations (though if everyone took the time to review one article, it would be reduced dramatically). CloudNine 15:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

No; GA process is seriously flawed. Furthermore, it's undesirable to have a "process ladder" increase the amount of effort needed to promote articles that are FA class. Christopher Parham (talk) 16:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Not necessary. Some articles can be created and be immediately eligible for FA status: see Effects of Hurricane Isabel in Maryland and Washington, D.C., which was created on 2007-01-24, and featured on 2007-02-03. Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 19:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

What if there was some sort of initial FAC "holding bay" for new nominations. Similar to FARs before it gets to the FARC stage. Off the top of my head I can think of two goals for this:

1. A place to identify and remove Snowball articles before they clog up FAC proper.
2. A place for each article to have an automatic or semi-automatic script run against them to identify common problems, a good candidate is AndyZ's automated peer reviewer or a modified version. This would at least begin to look at problems mentioned here such as copyediting (such as identifying weasel words) and identifying the absence of cites in sections. If there are many problems or if they are not being fixed by the nominator then the article does not move on the FAC list.

This also would have the added benefit of each article being 'noticed' and not being buried in amongst other FACs. -- CheekyMonkey 22:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

AndyZ's peer reviewer script doesn't work on longer articles (at least not for me), so a different script would have to be developed or his would have to be tweaked. I'm not sure I like the holding-bay idea; it adds another step to a process that a lot of folks already see as overly bureaucratic. — Brian (talk) 01:02, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree that adding another step is far from ideal, it would only be worth it if the benefits of removing time-consuming activities (objecting to articles nowhere near FA standard, examining MoS issues etc) out-weighed the inconvenience of having such an area. CheekyMonkey 11:12, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Rudolph Cartier

The nomination for this article has been up for nearly two weeks now and attracted only two votes. Both supports, mind, but hardly enough to qualify it for promotion I'd have thought. Does anybody have the time to give it a look? I appreciate it's on a fairly niche topic, and I'm not trying to trawl for support votes, but I'd like to feel that if it doesn't make it it would have at least have had a fair review, rather than failed through apathy. Angmering 22:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Berlin

Starting the Berlin FA candidate request the new entry didn´t evolved properly. Any suggestions? Lear 21 12:58, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

You have to click "edit" since the {{fac}} template leads to a blanked page by default. Resurgent insurgent 13:19, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Reserve featured article director

Who would act as featured article director if one of the following happened?

• Raul resigns
• Raul goes on holiday
• Raul is too busy with real life
• Raul gets into an accident and is hospitalised
• Raul decides not to rule on a certain FAC due to a real or perceived conflict of interest

I have nothing against Raul - I think he's doing a good job.

--Kaypoh 07:42, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

• Chaos. DrKiernan 07:59, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
  • We'd appoint another one in most of those cases I suspect. No need to have any reserves here. Raul does go on holiday and the FAC process does survive. CloudNine 09:31, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Could everyone be a bit nicer?

I have mentioned the unpleasantness of some reviewers in previous posts, but I'm starting to get quite concerned that virtually all of my friends who have submitted FACs, most of which were subsequently promoted, have decided they don't want to submit any more because of the harshness of their reviewers.

Seriously, I'd like to ask everyone who reviews FACs to really consider how their edits will be taken. "Oppose: This article is nowhere near FA standard" is not only extremely unhelpful to the candidacy, it's guaranteed to piss off the poor editor who wrote the article. Similarly, referring to "crap" citation, or suggesting the editor has poor english, really doesn't achieve anything other than ruffle feathers. Please, everyone, consider your language, suggest or request things rather than order, and please be nice. We need more FA writers, and the ordeal people are going through at the moment is putting a lot of them off. DevAlt 17:14, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Agree, this same thing happens over at FPC. I took to straight up redacting anything that was inappropraite. -Ravedave 17:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree as well. I'd also like to see a very quick end to the practice of "snowball" opposing. Raul654 18:02, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I can see how people would be put off by FAC. The only thing reviewers find annoying though is when an article is nominated which is only at start class, and I can see why they'd get annoted and vote "snowball" oppose. If ever someone votes "Oppose: This article is nowhere near FA standard", then by my understanding of the criteria it would be deemed inactionable and invalid since they haven't specified their concerns. I hope your FAC friends change their minds and come back by the way. LuciferMorgan 01:06, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I know of a prolific article writer over in WT:MILHIST who takes his articles up to A-class review, but doesn't submit them for FAC (that I've seen). I haven't asked him, but I assume it's because he doesn't want to deal with the stress of the FAC process. If we see someone make an unduly harsh or inappropriate comment in an FAC review, I think we should remind that editor, either below their comment or on their talk page, to watch their tone and language. CLA 01:17, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Pointy opposes need to be cut down as well. Epbr123 01:23, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree Epbr - I earned a pointy oppose in one of my recent FACs, and that was a waste of Wikipedia's time. LuciferMorgan 15:36, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah. Its pathetic, isn't it. Epbr123 19:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Yep, but we all have to persevere. LuciferMorgan 19:52, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Mine too. Somebody had a personal problem with an editor who worked with me, and chose to take it out in his FAC review. - Merzbow 01:52, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I currently have an article up for FA, and the first few comments were very...negative. If a person is going to trash an article, then they should give some reasons. It's unseemly that for those of us who pour a lot of work into research and writing should then be dealt harsh condemnations. We're all here to improve Wikipedia, not deal each other blows. It's unproductive and discouraging. --David Shankbone 15:54, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I do agree; some reviews are a lot more helpful than others. I'm not a fan of the 'it's far from FA standard, nominate for GA first'-type comments. If a clear, concise list of objections or comments are given, there's no reason a hard-working nominator (like yourself :)) could address them. Of course, there are some articles that need months of work, but I don't think they come by as often as people think. CloudNine 16:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I love honest criticism/recommendations... but I too have little to no interest in bringing an article back to FAC... too many people attack the authors/subject, without providing meaningful insight on the articles themselve... there are exceptions (mainly people like Sandy who have been fixtures here) but they are just that, exceptions.Balloonman 17:30, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

That's the trouble. Balloonman, you produce brilliant articles (Military brat (U.S. subculture) was extremely informative), so it's a shame editors like yourself are staying away from the process. I'll try to keep an eye out for the kind of negative criticism you mention. I've had five articles that have gone to FAC and passed, and I've rarely received negative reviews. CloudNine 17:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I have never have any negative experiences at FAC either (four articles passed), although I do sympathise with those who feel otherwise. MLilburne 18:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Some people are a bit oversensitive, I feel. I just address the substantive points and ignore anything unpleasant or irrelevant: that's basic assertiveness and it works for me. But it's easy for me to speak because I've got a hide like a rhinoceros; people do get upset and discouraged by harsh comments, and so I very much agree that everyone should be as nice as possible. Jimmy Wales has tried to make that a part of Wikipedia philosophy from the beginning, and however slushy it must seem to some people, there's a lot of sense in it. qp10qp 04:04, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Maybe I have thicker skin? My first attempt (The Reputation) failed, and I understood why, my second (Kroger Babb) passed after about 60kb of back-and-forth. So what did I do for my next one (The Turk)? Simply prepared more ahead of time, and I think it eventually promoted in less than a week. I dunno. --badlydrawnjeff talk 02:20, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps there are two seperate problems here. The first is that there are often FAC noms which are vastly premature and/or made by less experienced users who are unprepared for the full scope of a review and thus can't keep pace editing-wise when it comes to addressing the concerns. To a certain extent they are never going to dissipate, and many will go on to successful FA status either by quickly catching on or going back to the drawing board until they do finally hammer out an FA-quality article. And therefore, there's little that can or should be changed for that problem.

The other problem is reviewer civility. And even though there is both wiki-wide policy to address that as well as FAC guidelines that state that votes must have substance and be actionable, this continues. Which is not acceptable and should be addressed as stringently as possible. It should be remembered that good-faith noms, no matter how unlikely they may seem, are still good-faith and should be respected as a right any editor has. Uncivil, rude, or bad-faith reviewing is not a right and is actionable. What action, I'm not certain. Girolamo Savonarola 11:37, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not certain either, Girolamo. So, if qp10qp and Jeff are quite done boasting about their thick skins...  :-P , I'm ready to admit I'm one of those oversensitive, thinskinned people. But there remains a logical problem: see, after I'd very cheerfully nominated seven articles on FAC and had them featured, I found the eighth process so abrasive that it's left me with zero inclination for any number nine. How likely is it that I suddenly got a lot more oversensitive after those happily constructive previous FACs? I don't think it's likely at all, I think it's the process that's gotten more unpleasant. I'm not surprised it gets to other possible or former nominators, per above. To them, I say: writing good content is a service to the encyclopedia whether you nominate your work for the star or not. Just write. I don't know what to do about the present FAC culture, but if enough writers bypass FAC, maybe the community will actually do something about that culture. Bishonen | talk 13:07, 9 June 2007 (UTC).

Well, there's the article and then there's the review. But the review has no bearing on the article itself unless the nominator or another editor actually does anything to the article. So even if an FAC gets savaged, that in no way diminishes the quality of the work already done; one can always disregard the review. You may not get the star, but the point, as you say, is the work, not the star.

Another problem that I've been pondering about is the actual content of the FA articles. I have no doubt that everything was added in good faith to these articles, but it seems that the FAC is a poor screening process for actual review of what's inside the article. While reviewers may catch out inaccuracies, gaps, or other salient matters, the truth is that FAC largely is an intense form of copy editing. Now there's nothing wrong with that, but in the long run it may be more advisable that FA's be required to pass both an FAC-like process for general article standards, and a rigorous peer review coordinated by, say, relevant WikiProject editors who are better equipped to assess the content. I know this sounds like more bureaucracy, but as the WPs are starting to create their own PR systems, it shouldn't be too difficult. In any case, as soon as a Today's Featured Article shows up with major factual errors or something similar is covered in a major press publication, I'm certain momentum will emerge... Girolamo Savonarola 13:32, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

The first para of your second last nails one key problem, Girolamo. "There are often FAC noms which are vastly premature" indeed, and a page which pushes toward 80 noms and only has one decision-maker can't really pause too long over them. But because those noms almost always come from first-time, still newbish nominators the "Oppose clearly not ready" comments appear horribly abrupt when they aren't intended to be. I was hyperventilating on my first nom (which ultimately passed, but wouldn't today). But Jeff is right too—just remember it for next time. When I took my first cat to FAC, Peta and Sabine lit into me for not using enough research abstracts (followed by Kimvd, after the fact). When I took my second, every other ref was an abstract and the nom was vastly easier.

As for by-passing it, FAs are going up, not down, after a two-year flatline (Raul being more generous?). The WikiProject thing is interesting and may be pushing part of the uptick. The Dino wiki project is producing one every three weeks, and then there's MiltHist and our Tropical Cyclone aficionados. I almost wonder whether it wouldn't make more sense for a large Wiki project to internally declare something FA and have Raul rubber-stamp it; perhaps pass it to a professional for a read-over, as I believe the Dino people do. Marskell 13:56, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

This parallels comments made recently by some mathematics editors, at GA/R I think. There was a recent case of an article that was passed GA but which had technical issues and was only Start class per the Wikiproject. One suggestion in response was to completely separate the GA/FA hierarchy from the Stub/Start/B/A (SSBA) hierarchy; one would be for compliance, the other for completeness and accuracy. (I'm simplifying.) I don't think there are many subjects sufficiently technical for this to be warranted, but mathematics is clearly the most likely case.

I've had the benefit on the FACs I've been doing recently of getting some very useful input from historians expert enough to query me on sources and alternative interpretations. I'd say that's evidence that many FACs are getting the technical input they need, so there doesn't need to be any general policy change.

Suppose the mathematics WikiProject agreed to review the technical content of any mathematics article and pass it as A class, and also check that the technical citations met their standards (i.e. verifying that the content is truly covered in the citations). If they were willing to do that, then another way to implement Marskell's suggestion would be to say that any maths article that passes FAC with an A rating from the Maths WProject is an FA. If a maths article comes to FAC without an A rating, there are a couple of possibilities -- ask them to go through Maths WProject first, or pass it pending WProject approval. The benefit to FAC is that certain kinds of validation would be unnecessary, which should reduce workload. I would assume this approach could only be taken by mutual agreement between Raul and the WikiProjects involved; perhaps not every WikiProject is qualified to take this on. Mike Christie (talk) 15:32, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

... then another way to implement Marskell's suggestion would be to say that any maths article that passes FAC with an A rating from the Maths WProject is an FA ... ' Huh? Any article that passes FA without an A rating is also FA ? Confused about what you're proposing ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:36, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant that a maths FA would need both an A rating from the MWP, and a pass from FAC. The A rating ought to eliminate some fact-checking and technical verification at FAC, which should help workload; and the A rating would also increase confidence. The other thing I meant to say that may have been confusing is that it might not matter which was achieved first, so long as the article has no significant changes in the interim; you could pass FAC but not have an A rating, and hence not be FA; then if you get your A rating you can be rubber-stamped by Raul as FA if there have been no significant changes. This latter approach might not be workable in practice, but I didn't want to assume it wasn't. Does that make more sense? Mike Christie (talk) 15:45, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

OK, I think I'm following now, and I have problems with this proposal. An article cannot become FA based only on a Project review and a rubber stamp. I can think of three examples where this is problematic. 1) Math. With respect to Math, I acknowledge the longstanding issue between the Math Project and Good Articles over citation, but in my experience reviewing math articles, they typically have bigger issues with 1a than with 1c (prose and copyediting issues rather than citation issues). Having the Math project confer FA with just a rubber stamp and without broader community input wouldn't necessarily address the 1a issues. 2) MilHist. A Project which does an excellent job at peer review is MilHist. There is currently an article at FAC which passed MilHist as Class A, but based on a *very* scanty MilHist peer review, and I don't believe it should have passed their peer review as A-class. In some cases, an article just doesn't get a strong review, and those problems will be picked up at FAC. So, even Projects that have strong peer review processes can't guarantee that every article receives a strong review. I can see the reasoning in saying technical articles shouldn't come to FAC without an A-class review, but the A-class review cannot be used to rubberstamp FAC. All FAs should receive community-wide review, not rubberstamping by Project review. 3) Medicine. A third example are Medicine articles, where an A-class review process just isn't needed. It is not in the culture of the Medicine Projects to rubberstamp FA candidates (as is done by many other Projects, where support from Project members is almost automatic), and the FAC process is working fine on Medicine articles, without an internal review process. (For an example, see Coeliac disease, which took a long time to garner support, although it was nominated and mostly written by a highly-respected Medicine editor.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:58, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I agree that an article can't become FA with an A review and a rubberstamp; I didn't intend to say that, so apparently I mis-spoke again. I meant to say that an A review might eliminate most of the needed technical review at FAC; as you say, there are still a lot of other things that FAC should look at, regardless of whether the article has received an A from its WProj. Your example of a MilHist article with an undeserved A review is a good one: I would think Raul would have to be convinced of a WProj's ability to accurately certify A class before he would agree to reducing the need for technical review at FAC. I gather WPDino is a better example -- I'm not familiar with their articles but they have an excellent reputation for getting the technical details right.

I also agree that where FAC is working fine on a technical area -- as with Medicine articles, in your example, or Anglo-Saxon history, to repeat the example I gave -- then there's no need for any such change. The suggestion I made would only add value in cases where there was (a) some clear problem in standard FAC providing sufficient technical review, and (b) a WProj which was agreed to be reliable in its awards of A class.

I should also add that I didn't mean it to be a formal "proposal", so much as a talking point -- it does seem there's a problem, though not yet a serious one, and this seemed the right place to speculate about possible solutions. Mike Christie (talk) 16:22, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

After edit conflict: OK, I also see your point about even a good WProj can't be trusted in every case. Is there another way to address the issue with specialized technical content, then? Mike Christie (talk) 16:22, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry 'bout all the edit conflicts; I kept changing my wording, aiming for clarity and to make sure we were understanding each other. Now that I'm pretty sure we're on the same page, I think MilHist provides the best model. When an article receives a solid peer review from the MilHist Project, it's usually a solid article. I always check their reviews, and on the rare occasion that their review was scanty, I look at the article much more closely. It does seem that a system like MilHist could benefit the Math articles. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:56, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Good Lord! Mike Christie brings up the fact that people at FAC aren't necessarily reading, and certainly not engaging, the content of the nominated articles. As an example, he mentions a start class article, and what happens? Forms, forms, forms, and forms. Is it appropriate for a stub sort class start project poobah dippety doo to be classed on the ..... This is precisely what is useless about FAC. Read and understand, and then comment. Do not lay a sieve over things and look for forms to be filled out in process triplicate. Meanwhile, Bishonen (8 FA's) goes on Wikibreak because of the pathetic uselessness of this discussion, and everyone's just peachy with that. Before any of you say, "Good riddance," think about it: you claim to be fans of FA's, and yet you don't want FA authors. Something is seriously FUBAR about this. Geogre 18:48, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Just to return to the point - what I'm suggesting is that, as WP peer review emerges for relevant articles, perhaps having the articles clear both the WP (looking mainly for content issues but certainly free to address generic guidelines) and FAC. No rubberstamping - the article still needs to go through all of the FAC process normally. Girolamo Savonarola 20:53, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Girolamo, what do you think of my last at bottom of next thread? Marskell 20:58, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Addressed. Girolamo Savonarola 21:46, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Civility and the zeitgeist

Many editors have probably noticed all four of these, but for those who don't have all the pages on their watchlist, there have been conversations with a similar background at WT:GA/R, WT:GA, WT:FAC and WT:FAR in the last few days. I'm posting this note at all four places, to make the point that incivility (of various levels) and needlessly aggravating language is noticed and has a real impact. Here are some section links:

• WT:GA/R#Individual vs. speedy delisting and most of the following material
• WT:GA#Concrete proposal and most of the following sections. Both this and the above cover much more than "aggravating" posts, but that's a topic in both these pages
• WT:FAC#Could everyone be a bit nicer? Note Raul654's comments about "snowball oppose" paralleling comments on WT:GA/R about "speedy delist"
• WT:FAR#Notification: I go fuck myself An extreme case, admittedly, but it worries me that Bishonen's response doesn't seem a surprise after reading the other pages.

I don't have a prescription for this, but it doesn't seem coincidental to me that these threads are all going on at once. Mike Christie (talk) 02:38, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

As a stray thought, its usually that editors spend a lot of time sourcing, writing, and polishing their articles before bringing them here. The natural expectation then, at least on first nom, is gratitude for their effort from the community. Busy reviewers come along and make helpful suggestions to improve the articles, but they do so in a bulleted manner, and their comments are intreperated defensively rather than constructively. Thats very understandable, from both sides. PR is supposedly the filter, but is wholely understaffed. This is an early thought, but I suspect its the source of much of the negative perception on the FA process. And again, it comes down to resources. Ceoil 22:51, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

That would be assuming that we need "busy reviewers" rather than "careful reviewers" and that people in their "reviews" are concentrating on finding things wrong. It would also be assuming that anyone expects FAC to be "reasons why we cannot possibly let this go." There is such a hostility implicit in that attitude, and such superiority, that it can be rather noxious, and then, when the "reviewers" are wrong or absurd or irrational, it's going to be infuriating. Reviewers should respect the authors. For the negatives, offer positives. For each, "It cannot be," offer a normative value that would be good. If they're so "(heavy sigh)" busy, then they ought to hold their fingers and not offer exasperated lists of bullet points. Geogre 16:16, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Geogre. It can easily feel like there is little in FAC which is constructive. I was quite miffed when my the first contribution to my first FA was an oppose on grounds which were total bullshit and would have been laughed out of a peer review at the wikiproject. This nearly wound me up enough to ignore the very helpful comments many other people made which helped get the article from nearly-FA status to FA status. The Land 18:06, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Back in the seminary, someone put forth the proposition that you may petition the Lord with.... Actually, way back years and years ago, I was forced to take a pedagogy class. Most of what was told me then was of little use, but there was a way to comment on student papers that we all agreed was valid. It's the "compliment sandwich" approach: "Suzie, I really liked the way that you approached the subject of fashion accessories in literature. It's an interesting idea. However, you should probably have noticed that Hester Pryn doesn't choose to wear the big red A on her chest. Your grammar seriously interferes with my ability to understand what you're trying to say. Go back and re-read the section on the comma rule in Hacker. To do this well, you should clean up the sentences considerably and perhaps focus on how the lack of fashion becomes a fashion in Hawthorne's world." In other words, "what you tried to do appreciated, errors, mistakes, failures, goals to improve the situation." Granted, students instantly figure out the pattern and begin only reading the starts or middles of the end notes, and we ourselves grow so weary of the form that we can barely lift pen to paper, but the mental effort necessary in coming up with parts one and three improves all of us.

The biggest thing is that FA candidates do not come as supplicants to the mighty keepers of the seal. They are trying to find their peers (other writers, others engaged in the subject, others with an interest in the highest standards). What they actually meet, most of the time, is a group on a power trip. It's astonishing, when you know who some of these screen names really are, to see professors of law and NIH scientists being told that they do not make the cut for some pitiful formalist reasoning. Geogre 18:43, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Geogre, I'm not sure if this is rhetorical zeal on your part, but "What they actually meet, most of the time, is a group on a power trip", is not universally true; it's not my own experience at FAC, for example. I think the real issue is not whether this is "most of the time", though; it should be "almost never" ("never" being perhaps too utopian). Though I've never run into problems, others seem to have done so; I'm not denying a problem exists, just suggesting that it may affect a smaller fraction of FAC discussions than you say.

That's by the way, though. The real problem I see is that remedies for incivility that involve notification that someone has been incivil are going to spark arguments in the same way incivility itself does. Anyone who took your comments above as applying to them is likely to be offended by being regarded as a "pitiful formalist" or by the implication they see themselves as "mighty keepers of the seal". It's not that no fault exists to be criticized, but once emotional language comes into play it's very hard to restrict discussion to the fault. Techniques like the "compliment sandwich" can be used when critiquing FAC participants too, after all.

Ultimately those techniques are useless unless necessary change is achieved, but the goal for that is consensus, and I think we get there more quickly when the temperature is low. Mike Christie (talk) 19:00, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't "professors of law and NIH scientists" find a "compliment sandwich" cloying in the extreme and prefer an abrupt list? And pitiful formalism isn't something alien to professional life—it originates in the professions. (Surely our math and science editors know that.) That said, I usually try some form good job-try this-good job in the few reviews I do.

In any case, to reply to Mike from the above thread here: a working group/checklist basis. The best of what MiltHist does is probably the best example. So, Geogre, let's say, is a member of the English Literature FA working group. There's a minimum of maybe six members but more than ten's probably a crowd. One of them or someone from outside brings an Eng. Lit. page to a sub-FAC page and all of them have to approve every broad category (prose, comprehensiveness, factual accuracy, and formatting). It can't be a closed process because it's Wiki—Lucifer Morgan would still be free to show up with a five word oppose—and good faith efforts to address anyone's concern would have to be put in. But the burden of decision would rest with the group. This would reduce drive-by !votes (support and oppose both). Not every project could rush off and do this, and a group sub-page would need to be approved by Raul or a poll or whatever. Marskell 19:41, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

First of all, civility and compliments should not be regarded as cloying, regardless of the situation. Plus, how are you going to distinguish between the "pros" and other editors? If everyone is treated respectfully, that doesn't change the validity or substance of the criticism, but it will presumably keep the mood light. Any backlash to compliments would likely be regarded as rude on the nom's part.

As far as the FA working group idea, I think that's unnecessary additional bureaucracy when the WikiProjects are only recently starting to start franchising their own peer review groups. Surely the whole purpose of these project PRs is to concentrate people interested in particular topics so as to better address the content? I'm not saying that the style guidelines are disregarded, but clearly the content is what distinguishes between normal PR and project PR. For groups which have sufficiently organized PRs, it may be reasonable to start requesting articles within the scope of these projects to clear project PR first before entering FAC. FAC would still be valuable for two reasons - identifying general concerns about the style and guidelines, and as a layman-check against articles which may have a blindspot by catering too much towards specialists at the expense of the interests of a casual reader. Girolamo Savonarola 21:45, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Civility and compliments are always great, of course. (Though I really don't understand the bother if people are merely unfriendly.) I just meant that, by implication, Geogre's comments suggest that amateurs should be offering professional scientists generic pats on the back. It was a suggestion to re-target the people responsible for decision; note it wouldn't be pros as such, but simply people who have proven additions in a given area of Wiki (the proverbial twelve year-old could be on the working group). As you say, FAC may be a poor screening process, and as you say, an extra level of check might be in order. *Shrugs*. But these threads seem no-win. So. Marskell 22:01, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

No-win? Marskell, are you familiar with the medical concept of ascertainment bias/selection bias? People who are happy and doing well are rarely heard from, don't show up in doctors' offices, support groups or clinical studies, while (medically speaking) the "sickest of the sick" show up disproportionately in clinical studies and support groups, which causes specialists to see disproportionate representations of the "sickest" in their fields. Physicians msut know to look to broader-based population studies for true representations of the conditions they work with. So, consider the people you don't hear from as well as those you do hear from. Mav has a gazillion FAs, and they regularly come before FAR. Ever heard a complaint? A mere five months ago, Evolution looked like a hopeless POV wasteland when I brought it to FAR. What has happened there? While some editors nitpick back and forth on talk pages, TimVickers has quietly taken these highly controversial articles (that LOTS of people edit - not a quiet corner of Wiki) and brought them back from FAR to likely featured status (he saved Tuberculosis as well). Heard any complaints there lately? No, Tim is too busy becoming an FA machine, churning out some of Wiki's best work on VERY difficult topics and up to current standards. You just don't hear from the successes in the same proportion as you hear from those who have a beef. That doesn't mean we don't heed complaints or look for substance in them, but keep it in perspective and in the context of the successes. Some truly fine FAs are being churned out by people who don't even read these talk pages. And some who highlight civility issues may have less than clean records on that score, having chased off a few good editors themselves, so what can you do? Ignore the lack of civility, and focus on the "work", which is supposed to be fun. (And please don't fall into the trap of thinking we need another process on top of a process that is working fine :-) Regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:29, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

All I meant was that were I reviewing (I generally don't), I wouldn't really take the time to even look at the nom's profile to see if they were a professional scientist - it doesn't really matter to me either way. So how can I know if I'm patting a PhD on the back or merely an enthusiast? I won't, and I don't really think that it would make any difference - scientists are still people too, and while some may have thick skins, others may be offended by "mere laymen" telling them what's wrong. Girolamo Savonarola 22:11, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict; replying to Marskell) Why are they no-win? Seems like if FAC is going to truly scale up in the long term, something like this must be tried. There are several indications that it might be a good time to try it now (i.e. the mathematics editors' dissatisfaction, and other related comments above). A consensus plan has to start somewhere. Or do you feel there's not really a need yet?

Personally I suspect that if we can figure out how to implement something like this successfully, e.g. in MilHist or Mathematics, it could become a model for other WikiProjects, and an incentive for interested editors to work in a WikiProject. That could only be beneficial. Mike Christie (talk) 22:14, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

(pre-ec to Girolamo) OK, that's not entirely opposite my line of thinking. The people on a given group would not have faxed in degrees or anything—they'd simply have prior mainspace contributions to point to. User:A has two FAs in this genre of film; User:B has no FAs but has made 10K+ edits sorting and wikifying this genre film. That's all I'm thinking of. As an example, I'm sure we could get four, six, eight editors for a mammal FA group.

We can't just create cliques, though, which I think is what you intimate. It would have to be clear that others can make comments and that those should be addressed. But the dynamic would shift, and I think it might at least partly address Geogre's many comments about out-of-nowhere comments. Taking out our rhetorical hammers about FA culture isn't going to accomplish much.

(post ec to Mike) It seems no win (to me) because I'm tired, Mike. Tired of mischaracterizations. But perhaps it's not no-win. I have no problem workshopping some of the ideas proposed. Marskell 22:27, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Marskell, see my response above about ascertainment/selection bias. I'm really sad to see such a valuable editor being worn down by mischaracterizations. Outriggr was shouted down for editing an article, and he's given up, too. I hope you can keep perspective, and stay focused on the successes, which enormously outweigh any perceived failures. On these talk pages, you're more likely to hear one side of a two-sided story; that's the "nature of the beast". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:34, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Threats - please consider your actions before making them

I don't appreciate threats like this from anyone. I suggest FAC tell Epbr123 to stop attempting to bully nominators around over their opposes, especially in light of the fact that same editor recently called someone here a "sad bastard", did other incivil things on this talk page for which no action was taken, and removed and reinserted their noms (rather silly behaviour). I don't have time for this at all, and have much better things to do with my time - I'm trying my best to improve Slayer related articles, yet my time's being taken up responding to this threatening behaviour. My time can be much better used focusing on improving articles, and furthermore I don't need the hassle. Thanks FAC reviewers and nominators for your time. LuciferMorgan 20:13, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

• I don't think you've checked the editor's history tab. He has removed the warning I gave him. Bishonen | talk 20:20, 8 June 2007 (UTC).
  • I don't regret making the threat considering these pointy opposes: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Epbr123 20:42, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Epbr, it seems you'd like to make every medium-sized locality in the UK a Featured article—great! But you can't roam around demanding people support your articles, given that this whole process works on voluntary review. Indeed "strike this oppose or I report you for POINT" is a little bit of pot-and-kettle, isn't it? Patience. You've got one of these through, one failed, and a few are outstanding. I'm sure you'll have more FAs in no time. Ask people on their talk to look again but understand that, hey, sometimes people aren't going to. And don't remove warnings from your talk. They're left to be fair to the warnee, in fact, and it only looks bad on you to revert them. Marskell 20:56, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
      • You're another one - "Actually, you still need to remove your oppose from Sale, Greater Manchester. Epbr123 15:48, 28 May 2007 (UTC) " "If it wasn't clear, I'm not going to return to your reviews because I don't want to interact with you. Marskell 22:29, 28 May 2007 " I wonder why one of them failed? Epbr123 20:58, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
        • Yes, that's what I said. Thx for confirming the decision. Marskell 21:02, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
          • So you only want to avoid interacting with me when it involves removing opposes from my FACs? Epbr123 21:04, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
            • Read the posts, and the warning, again. Ceoil 21:07, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
              • And? Epbr123 21:11, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
                • And civility. Ceoil 21:24, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
                  • And? Epbr123 21:25, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
                    • And disruption. Ceoil 21:26, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
                      • Get to the point, please? Epbr123 21:28, 8 June 2007 (UTC)