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November 21

Translation into Korean?

How might one say the following in Korean? (This is not a homework project, but rather a home-maintenance project).

In an emergency, it should be possible to exit the building through the front door, even when that door is locked.

Thanks, Vectro 00:19, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

비상시에는 정문이 잠겨있더라도 정문을 통해 밖으로 나갈 수 있습니다. --Kjoonlee 03:52, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe 대문 is better, if it's a home. 비상시에는 대문이 잠겨있더라도 대문을 통해 밖으로 나갈 수 있습니다. --Kjoonlee 04:48, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Japanese translation

Can somebody help translate this article ja:アリーン冷却器? --HappyCamper 00:51, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Until next time: Wikipedia:Translation_into_English#Japanese-to-English 惑乱 分からん 01:28, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you just mean to say "next time". : )  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  04:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, well, what I really want to know is whether that article is the same as our Allihn condenser. Yes? --HappyCamper 17:18, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

It seems. Both articles mension Felix Richard Allihn and their description of internal are similar. I have added interlanguage links to them. --Kusunose 00:39, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Fallacy name?

Not sure if this should be in Language RefDesk. If it's in the wrong place, please tell me where it should be.

Often I hear from others when I criticize their work the phrase "well let's see you do any better". For an example, maybe a sculpture or something someone made that is just awful. I'll say "wow, that looks really bad" and they'll say "well I'd like to see you do better!". In essence, they are saying that because I can't do something that means I can't criticize their work. This HAS to be an informal fallacy of some sort. If it is, what's the name of it? --Wooty Woot? contribs 04:33, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

This is not an answer, but I expect it's simply a reaction to judgmental language. If you said "I don't like that sculpture" rather than describing it as "bad", maybe they would accept that more readily. JackofOz 04:51, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Constructive criticism would be even better. :) --Kjoonlee 04:53, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Trust me, it happens even when I give constructive criticism. I know it's logically idiotic (just because I haven't built a car doesn't mean I can't judge one, only that I am a bit less qualified to talk about technicalities) I just can't find the word for it. --Wooty Woot? contribs 05:28, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

• It's mildly off-topic.
• It could be an implicit ad-hominem attack.
• It looks as if it involves denying the antecedent
  1. If you can do it yourself, then you can offer constructive criticism.
  2. You can't do it yourslf.
  3. Therefore you can't offer constructive criticism. ← ERROR

--Kjoonlee 06:49, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

My contribution was indeed constructive. I provided an alternative that I know from experience often works better. And it was not intended as a criticism, merely a suggestion. And I did qualify it by saying it's not an answer to the question. That in itself doesn't make it an invalid or inappropriate comment. JackofOz 00:58, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you misunderstood Kjoonlee's response - they meant that constructive criticism is even better than "I don't like that sculpture", not that your comment was not constructive. --Wooty Woot? contribs 01:27, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I'm sorry about that. I shouldn't have said it that way; I should have made clear what I was talking about. --Kjoonlee 01:47, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

No worries. Maybe I was a little too defensive. Thanks for the clarification.  :) JackofOz 02:21, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

When it comes to artistic creativity, I wonder how constructive criticism would work. History is full of examples of what we now consider masterpieces that, at the time they were created, were ill-appreciated. Had Beethoven or Michelangelo listened to their critics and changed their conceptions to fit the prevailing view of how things should sound or look, no matter how well intended those suggestions might have been, we would all have been a lot worse off. Creativity is inherently revolutionary in its essence, and is therefore often inimical to contemporary standards. True creative art survives despite such challenges. How does a non-artist suggest, creatively or otherwise, how a sculpture might be better made, or a symphony better constructed, or a book better written? They can certainly express their opinion of it ("it is good/bad"), or state their feeling ("I do/don't like it") - but how to get to the next step ("Maybe it would be better if ....") without being arrogantly presumptuous and putting themselves in the position of knowing better than the artist themself? JackofOz 02:21, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

That's a reverse appeal to authority. That is, they are saying you are not an authority, so have no right to comment. Their standard for being an authority is also faulty, as many people spend their lives critiquing things which they themselves are incapable of creating. And, if only artists are qualified to comment on art, then the rest of us should have nothing to do with it, just let them argue amongst themselves. StuRat 07:28, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with that. Any layperson is entitled to comment on an artistic creation, whether or not they have any relevant training or skills. It's how they comment that can make the difference between acceptance and rejection of the comment. JackofOz 23:13, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't see any fallacy here. Fallacies are about faulty reasoning, not false conclusions per se. The way I'd formalize the argument, if one is indeed implied, is:

For all $X$ and $Y$, if $X$ is in a position to offer criticism related to art $Y$, then (it must be true that) $X$ is skilled in art $Y$

Wooty is not skilled in art $Z$

Wooty is not in a position to offer criticism related to art $Z$

The argument is valid, but the conclusion may be false nevertheless because one or both of the premises may be false. (Validity is a different concept from soundness). For example, the first premise may simply be false. Or it could be true but the person making the argument is mistaken about its meaning and therefore the truth of the second premise — It may indeed be true that anyone in a position to offer criticism (whatever that means) related to art $Y$ must be skilled in the art, but being skilled in the art need not mean being good at execution, just versed in the theory. So you may be skilled in the art without being expert at execution. In that case, you can have a false conclusion despite a valid argument. --71.244.101.6 16:20, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

The very essence of law is illogic. "The ArbCom says so, so it must be true" is appeal to authority. One must say "The ArbCom says so, so respect it!" -- DLL ^{.. T} 22:04, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Appeal to authority can be a correct form of reasoning, but it is NOT a valid deductive argument, so it does not guarantee the truth of its conclusion. Employed correctly, the reasoning goes like this: "Expert X in subject Y formed an informed opinion that statement Z (on a matter in subject Y) is true. Therefore we have a good reason to believe that Z is true." Having a good reasoning to believe some statement is true does not mean that the statement is true. --71.244.101.6 04:56, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

November 22

translation to spanish

How do you translate to spanish or other languages on this site?

Translating a page directly requires an outside program, perhaps using something like babelfish. If you are looking for Wikipedia in other languages, on the main page, there is a language bar in the lower left hand side. (Note: article in the English version is not the same article in another language version!) 152.3.73.203 01:37, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Translation between different Wikipedias is a human task managed by voluntary editors. 惑乱 分からん 02:14, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

The question didn't specify translating between languages and I'm not sure if that is a good idea. Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources says "Wikipedia articles may not cite Wikipedia articles as a source". DirkvdM 07:07, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Why not just cite the original article's sources? -Elmer Clark 01:22, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Isn't that problematic for those who check sources... really, if you saw an article with a reference to a German or Chinese site, you would have no clue what it said. It could be anything and might not be trustworthy either. Cbrown1023 01:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Depends. See Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Sources_in_languages_other_than_English. One can use foreign language sources if no translation or similar source in English is available. DirkvdM 07:21, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Translation

I am looking for a name for my dog kennel. Could some one give me the Yupik translation for "Love of Dogs" or some thing similar? I would really appreciate your help.

thanks, dianna wallace

Crossword Clues

Take the lead, show signs of promotion, but flag? (5,3,7) stars and stripes --Richardrj ^{talk email} 14:26, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Terrible weed (7)

Records use of fuel....and phonecalls? (3,5) gas meter --Richardrj ^{talk email} 14:16, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

doktorb _words^deeds 13:46, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

How does gas meter follow from the clues? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 19:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

It's a cryptic clue, one of many different kinds. In any cryptic clue there is always a definition part and a subsidiary indication - a cryptic way of getting to the same answer. In this case, the definition part is "records use of fuel" - a gas meter in a house is something that records the use of fuel there. The "and phone calls?" part is playing on the alternative meaning of "gas" i.e. to talk. It's a play on words - a "gas meter" could be used to record the length of time someone spends making phone calls. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 20:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks -- I'm an experienced cryptic puzzler, but I'd not considered "gas" as "to talk" -- is it common slang somewhere? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 21:45, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Certainly in the UK, yes. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 21:49, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

There are many "gasbags" in the worlds of politics, social commentary, and the like. Why, we even encounter an occasional one here, on Wikipedia.  :) JackofOz 23:24, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Do you have any additional letters to help us, could be written like ***a*** or ??p???e ? 惑乱 分からん 16:14, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Terrible weed: triffid? slashed? meltBanana 21:32, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

It's probably tobacco. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 21:49, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Heh. The answer I had (these come from published sources, bored at work, you know how it is sometimes :)) was "chronic", slang for weed. =) doktorb _words^deeds 09:22, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Interesting, I'd never heard of chronic as a slang for cannabis before. Got any more clues? :-) --Richardrj ^{talk email} 09:37, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I take it that you're not a huge fan of African-American Hip-Hop or popular culture, then. =S The word has been used widely for more than a decade, see The Chronic, allegedly a stronger form than other kinds of cannabis, I think. 惑乱 分からん 14:27, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Marathi name for the bird Turkey.

I would like to know the correct name of the bird Turkey in Marathi language.

In hindi language its called Teeter. _______________________________________

Thanks Shantanu21.

Meaning

Dear Sirs: I would be very much interested in knowing the origin and meaning of the word "sodde". Many thanks, Alvaro Rey de Castro

Is that English? Do you mean "sod"? 惑乱 分からん 23:13, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

On the assumption that it is the above it comes from sodomy, which is derived from the biblical city of Sodom. Clio the Muse 00:21, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

It is also a surname and there is this old recipe:

Sodde Eggs

Seeth your Egges almost harde, then peele them and cut them in quarters, then take a little Butter in a frying panne and melt it a little broune, the put to it in to the panne, a little Vinegar, Mustarde, Pepper and Salte, and then put it into a platter upon your Egges.

--J. Partridge, The Widowes Treasure, 1585

In old recipes it can mean boiled or steeped (especially "y-sodde"), like "sodden". It can also be a variant spelling of sod.

[Origin: 1250–1300; ME soden, sothen, ptp. of sethen to seethe]

What is the context? -THB 00:45, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

• Maybe "sod poTtage" in the Bible i.e. "made lentil stew"hotclaws**== 13:36, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

November 23

Riff question

Can you tell me what is a riff. thanskl—Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.110.143.178 (talk • contribs)

A short and repeated series of notes in rock music or jazz. Clio the Muse 00:09, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) A musical riff? 惑乱 分からん 00:10, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia. You can easily look up this topic yourself. Please see riff. For future questions, try using the search box at the top left of the screen. It's much quicker, and you will probably find a clearer answer. If you still don't understand, add a further question below by clicking the "edit" button to the right of your question title. --Shantavira 09:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Please don't laugh - or laugh all you want :)

I am currently re-writing the article Upskirt. Don't ask me how I got to this page in the first place, because it's a long story. Anyway, it's a mess (no really, that's the most neutral term for it), so I decided to give it a go (big expert that I am).

The first question: what's the word that describes this kind of word? I know there is one. It describes a slang term that's created by smushing one word with another. I can't for the life of me remember what it is though.

The second question: Would someone with perhaps a slang dictionary or some kind of powerful search engine find and etymology for this word? If you can't find one, just let me know. I have a feeling you won't anyway.

I appreciate your help, and Happy Thanksgiving (if you celebrate it). NinaEliza 08:09, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

You're probably thinking about portmanteau words but it's not one, it's a compound word. (A portmanteau shortens the words, like motel = motor + hotel (or, since it's Thanksgiving, turducken).

The etymology is from Modern English up + Modern English skirt. Use www.dictionary.com to get the etymology on up and skirt if that is important.

Incidentally, that website gave the wrong definition, or an ambiguous one: something about the view FROM under a woman's skirt. Hah. -THB 08:31, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

That's a good one - I didn't even notice that...

• See "Ball Four" by Jim Boutonhotclaws**== 13:38, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Well dang, I was hoping it was more than just a compound word, but I'll go with it. So - forgive me - I don't understand about the etymology. Am I using the word incorrectly? I probably am, forgive me. What I meant was the orgin of the specific phrase. In other words, when did the phrase get coined, in what context, and by whom? Barring that, when was the first recorded usage of the phrase? I tried to do an internet search and that was HILARIOUS. It's not that big a deal, but it could lend a bit more credibility to the article by providing a little bit of info that no one commonly knows.

Thanks for your help:), NinaEliza 09:37, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

A good place to look for Internet related history is Usenet here is up skirt and upskirt from google groups. meltBanana 15:36, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Isn't the etymology quite simply from "looking up skirt"? 惑乱 分からん 20:08, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I've looked up skirt in several dictionaries, am I a pervert? meltBanana

Goddamit, you logophiles are a twisted bunch! Someone should stop you from punning wild on the streets. 惑乱 分からん 23:12, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Don't make fun of me, I suffer from paranomasia meltBanana 01:04, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

But that's what we do. It's a natural expression of ourselves. Do you want a world inhabited by logo-eunuchs?  :) JackofOz 01:54, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Paranomasia? Don't worry, I know about an ex-play/ex-ludus movement I could write you up for... ;) 惑乱 分からん 13:08, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

The Japanese will always be ahead of us :) :"It's now required that all digital cameras and camera phones in Japan make an audible noise when taking a picture."Evilbu 12:38, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Definition : Lavacious

I have tried 7 - yes 7 - online dictioneries and printed dictioneries and still cannot find the definition of this word... It is being used as the name of a beverage in South Africa (LAvacious Lemon) so it is a "real" word... Please help...

Thanks and regards J

There is no such word in English. Perhaps it should be spelled lascivious (lustful), or luscious (delicious)?--Shantavira 09:07, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

It's a word they coined so they can trademark it. Sounds like they were playing off lascivious, delicious, lava, bodacious, etc. On the website for lemon it gives the definition as "exotic, gorgeous, glamorous, strikingly stunning, zesty, and trendy". website. Most of the non-beverage references on Google appear to be a misspelling of "lascivious"-THB

That's strikingly similar to the definition of me :)NinaEliza 09:39, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, you should enter the contest on the website. -THB 15:31, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

NinaEliza, are you a non-beverage reference ? -- DLL ^{.. T} 21:56, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

If I found the word lavacious in a book, I'd take it to mean tending to wash frequently. —Tamfang 06:29, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi Guys! Using Google to search the word brought showed Lavacious used in several places... both local sites and internationals sites, none of which belong to this beverage... So a) It is an English word, B) it is not a trademark name; C) it is neither lascivious nor lucious, and d) it certainly does not mean "to wash frequently". Anyone else got any suggestions??

J

The word has never entered any dictionary afaik. Google is no help because it seems to be used to mean different things on different websites. As often as not the person using the word is confusing it with "lascivious". In other cases, there is no explanation. It just sounds good, so people tend to pick it up and use it without knowing what it's supposed to mean (if anything). I think THB's post above is the right answer. In this sense, it's marketing-speak, and the word has no more inherent meaning than "funkadelic" or "bootylicious" - it means whatever it means to you. If it makes you want to buy the drink Lavacious Lemon, it's done its job. However, this very discussion will undoubtedly bring it to the attention of a lot of people who'd never heard it before, and I predict we'll now see an upsurge in the use of this admittedly very cool word. In time, its meaning (or meanings) will be nailed down and some reputable dictionary will admit it as a word. JackofOz 01:00, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

"not a girl who misses much"

Here's a question for the German Wikipedia article on Pipilotti Rist. She references the Beatles line "she's not a girl who misses much" in one of her works. What does the verb to miss mean here? That she is happy with what she has, or that she doesn't let many opportunities slip? thanks --08-15 15:09, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd say "miss out", but out of context, I interpret it as a girl who takes everything she can ...? 惑乱 分からん 15:20, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I always interpreted it as "she's very observant; very little escapes her notice". Fun how things like this can be read various ways. On the other hand, wtf does "she's well acquainted with the touch of the velvet hand like a lizard on a window pane" mean? Bang bang shoot shoot. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 15:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

That's another option I thought about after I wrote the post, btw, the quote is from the song Happiness is a warm gun, where context is quite difficult to discern... 惑乱 分からん 15:31, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, 'she notices things and knows what's going on'. Saying someone "doesn't miss much" often means this - at least in the UK - see here --HJMG 15:53, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I interpreted it as: "She has basically all she needs", not implying that she is happy with it. Maybe she is spoilt. That fits with the "velvet hand": she is treated like a princess. I'm curious to see how many different interpretations there are.  --Lambiam^Talk 15:59, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

It means that she is observant, but is not used as a compliment. Example: person finds trifling fault, complains, leaves. "She doesn't miss much," says someone. I don't think I've ever heard it used in other than a negative sense. Of course, this is about the only line in the song which can be said to make any sense, so it probably doesn't. Notinasnaid 16:19, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Like most song lyrics - it could mean both.. any context - ie the rest of the song.83.100.250.186 16:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

In my experience (U.S. English), "she doesn't miss much" has always had the meaning given by jpgordon and HJMG. Wareh 19:13, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

How curious. In Australia, to be told "you don't miss much" is usually meant as a compliment. It's intended as an acknowledgment of superior visual skills rather than any form of criticism. It is often used, for example, when someone spots a bad error in some written text (say a TV ad) that others have read and noticed nothing wrong. Then it becomes so obvious to the others that they can never again see the text without their eyes being drawn to the error. It probably wouldn't be used if the error was trifling (the definition of which is somewhat subjective). Just don't push your luck, though, or you'll be branded a pedantic nitpicker or a wanker. JackofOz 01:49, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

if you look at it through the analogy of a gun, i would perceive that she doesnt miss her 'mark' or 'target' much . . . which would lead me to believe that she is very well versed with a 'gun' . . . now, what i wanna kno is: what 'mother superior jump the gun' means . eh? submitted by jet mccr8 in june 2009

November 24

Classical and Modern Greek

Can I ask.. how mutually intelligible are the 2? Are they at all? 81.179.190.214

Same letters, different pronunciation (iotacism ?) and spelling ; some word's senses changed ; many imports of modern words, as everywhere ... for the grammar, dunno. -- DLL ^{.. T} 21:54, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Not mutually intelligible whatsoever, even if you were to pronounce Classical Greek as Modern & vice versa. Many's the Modern Greek who flunks Ancient Greek in school, and many's the non-Greek Classicist who only wishes they had facility with the modern language. That said, knowledge of one is certainly a help with the other. But the one student in my ancient Greek class who's fluent in modern Greek is not at the top of the class (the idea that you have to come to terms with ancient Greek's grammatical complexity in order to understand actual ancient authors is an intimidating fact to come to terms with), and while I (w/ decent ancient Greek skills) can sometimes pick gists out of newspaper articles (I get a leg up if you give me the conservative Katharevousa), I could not understand any sentence of ten words in ModGk. And everything I've said here is true of simple Classical Attic prose (say Plato); the fuhgeddaboudit factor increases by 100 if we're talking about Pindar, Aeschylus, Sappho, etc. Wareh 01:19, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Wareh is spot on. I've been reading Classical Greek every day for the last 30 years or more, but when I recently began learning the modern language I found that the structure is completely different. Somewhere many years ago I read a comment about how well Greek has endured: something to the effect that it has changed less in 3,000 years than English has changed in the 600 years since Chaucer. At the time I was quite impressed, but I now think this comment is way offbeam. Anyone who has tried reading Chaucer's English may have found some slight difficulties with vocabulary, but the essential structure of the language has changed very little. In Greek, the structure is now completely different. Maid Marion 09:14, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

My impression is that most of the people claiming it's nearly identical are more or less Greek "nationalists", bending the facts to fit their vision... Btw, is there a term like Neo-Greek, similar to Neo-Latin, for modern words based on Classical Greek roots? 惑乱 分からん 14:43, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Seeing things

Can someone help me find the word that signifies the activity of staring into places like the sky, the fire, patterns on the flooring or wherever and then finding faces or figures or objects. I am sure I have heard the word before but cannot recollect it. Thanking anyone in anticipation Raylee Burns .... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.100.241.100 (talk • contribs)

Someone like Da Vinci used to teach that. -- DLL ^{.. T} 21:51, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Apophenia - do you see yonder cloud that's almost in shape of a camel?. meltBanana 23:01, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

On a related note, visual hallucinations sometimes occur in people with macular degeneration. The patients are fully aware that what they are seeing is not real, and the hallucination disappears when they close their eyes. The phenomenon is called Charles Bonnet Syndrome. See also[1]. --Norwegian Blue ^talk 23:29, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

The article on Apophenia doesn't really make it sound like a visual condition, it says patterns in random data, like a connection between spy satellites and fluoridated toothpaste. I am actually very interested in this, I can easily 'space out' just a tiny little bit and even textured walls and pavement start looking like they're made up of interconnected faces, I never thought of it as a 'condition'.... I'm very interested to see if anyone suggests anything else. Vespine 00:58, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Psychedelic experience? -THB 06:42, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Pareidolia, I think. EdC 23:00, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's much more like it. Nice one. Vespine 22:12, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

That's a natural result of our brain's pattern recognition capabilities. StuRat 11:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I take it there's no Rosetta Stone for Classical Nahuatl, is there?

Where can I find pronunciations of Nahuatl words? Does anybody here speak Nahuatl and use AIM? I'd really like to learn this language, and I'm a silly American, so I don't know any native speakers. -- Abnerian 08:01, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Try Nahuatl transcription. Nahuatl is very similar to Spanish in its orthographic practices. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 14:24, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Australia fought "with"

In World War I, Australia fought on the side of the Allies, but against the Central Powers. However, if given the following incomplete sentence "In World War I Australia fought with..." would the correct answer be the Allies or the Central Powers? Does the word "with" imply fighting in support of, or against a specific enemy? If I were to say that I were fighting with my friend, one could assume that I was having an argument against my friend. Would either option be equally reasonable or is the interpretation of "fighting against an enemy" colloquial? Vvitor 12:15, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

The answer is that the question is unacceptably ambiguous, which leaves the answerer trying to guess the intention of the person who posed it. Neither interpretation is particularly comfortable. There are ways to phrase the question without being ambiguous, but I'd incline towards replacing "with" with either "against" or "alongside". Given that the question setter has posed a question in bad English, either way, I'd go for whichever meaning of "fought with" is most used where you live. In the UK, where I am, I'd probably veer towards it meaning "against", but I'm not sure. Such is the nature of ambiguity. My advice is that your best bet is to state the assumption of interpretation that you make, alongside your answer. --Dweller 12:37, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Best way to approach a vague and badly formed question is sideway "fought with rifles", "fought with verve and pluck." meltBanana 20:27, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

"...with the question of how to reconcile its new-found identity as an independent country with its status as a colony of the British Empire"? EdC 23:46, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Similar problem: being Dutch, when I first saw the series title 'married with children' I thought it meant 'married to children' bacause 'with' translates as 'met', which, in that sentence, gives the second meaning in Dutch. DirkvdM 07:12, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure about using the same word in a different sentence. Wiktionary lists 7 different definitions of with so unless the sentence is similar (Country A fought with Country B) the problem is still present. Also, I am Australian. I was initially thinking that the definition I gave about fighting with a friend was colloquial, and as such it would not be acceptable in a history answer. Also, thank you very much for your responses. Vvitor 07:31, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Strangely, 'with' originally had the sense of 'against', 'in opposition to' (cf 'withstand', and German 'Wieder'). The senses of 'together with' and 'by means of' are later developments, ousting 'mid', which did not survive into Modern English. --ColinFine 23:10, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

"Fighting with", meaning opponents, would be more likely found between individuals rather than between nations. "Billy is fighting with Johnny" means one and only one thing - they are having a fight. But "Australia fought with the USA in the Pacific" means Australia and the USA were on the same side. You would never write "Australia fought with Japan in the Pacific". To make that make sense, you'd have to drop the "with". I think you're safe to say "In World War I Australia fought with the Allies". JackofOz 01:16, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The thing is, I might say 'Australia fought with Japan in the Pacific' and mean they were fighting against each other. I'd be more likely to drop the 'with', particularly in formal writing, but I don't think (in my usage anyway) the meanings are as clear cut as your suggestion, unfortunately. Skittle 19:19, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

"In World War I Australia fought with ... educators who are incapable of writing an unambiguous test question." :-) StuRat 11:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Minge (vulva)

What is the etymology of "minge" as slang for vulva? Is it English (as in England) slang? Is it considered very vulgar like "cunt" or more silly like "pussy"? I never heard the term before. -THB 03:48, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I would say that its acceptability lies between the words C*** and pussy.--Light current 03:56, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

"Minge" just redirects to "vulva" whereas "cunt" and "pussy" have their own articles. -THB

Yes I notced that. I think 'minge' should really have its own article as i believe ther are other connotations concerning it. ie it may apply to animal genitals as well! --Light current 04:06, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

No on second thoughts, the word only seems to apply to the humane female's external genitalia--Light current 04:37, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Urban dictionary indicates that many use it to refer to female pubic hair only, not the vulva. -THB 04:41, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm. Well therabouts anyway! 8-)--Light current 04:42, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

This all might be better placed on a lavatory wall, to be enjoyed by tittering schoolboys. It most probably is. Clio the Muse 05:57, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

lol been wondering about some of these recent posts myself. Reference desk starting to look like high school graffiti Sandman30s 11:49, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, this thread should be on the language RD, where hopefully editors are less prudish.--Light current 12:26, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Great. Someone moved this question that was in response to another question on another board so now it looks like I came up with this on my own. -THB 13:05, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not on the least surprised that you are embarrassed to be thought of as the initiator of this silly and puerile discussion. Clio the Muse 19:25, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry, does it matter that much in what context (i.e. Wikipedia) you first heard the expression? 惑乱 分からん 13:11, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

It certainly is British; whether it's uniquely English I have no idea (but would be surprised if it were). You might enlarge your inquiry to include "minger", a general pejorative for an unattractive woman ... the connection with pubic hair is then reinforced by the irregularly-pronounced "ginger minger". Tesseran 19:39, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

The OED says it means the female pudenda and that it is probably from the Latin mingere meaning to piss. Most etymology is complicated and mingles different meanings, like ming an old word meaning a mixture, usually not a very nice mixture. Maybe a ming of minge and muff (or merkin) makes a minger. You see the internet is a massive toilet door. meltBanana 20:39, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah merkin. Now thats a word you dont hear very often. What a picture it conjures! 8-)

Yes, often used in the salutation "A merkin for your quim, madam". Most women are chuffed when they hear this, initially at least. JackofOz 01:06, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure how one could come to the conclusion that this discussion was necessarily puerile. Light-hearted, certainly (not every subject under the sun has to be treated with utmost seriousness). But it concerns the etymology of a slang word, which I've found it necessary to research for a foreigner.

I'm wondering if it really is slang thoughm strictly speaking. The couple of minutes I've spent Googling etc lead me to believe that its origin might be Romany (Gypsy proper). My own opinion (and opinion is all that it is thus far) is that it isn't anything to do with public hair, and the phrase "ginger minge(r)" just happens to rhyme slightly.

The Roma language is apparently not descended from Latin, being Indo-Iranian. There are a smattering of (what we used to call, pre-PC) 'Gypsies' throughout Northern Ireland and the word is common here. What we called "Gypsies" are now known as 'Travellers', and I see the Wikipedia article on them basically seems to claim that it is technically incorrect to refer to them as Gypsies, though I personally suspect the truth simply is that the term Gypsy carries with it too many negative connotaions.

The article on the language of the Travellers claims that, although the language "contains elements" of Romani languages, the Travellers are not "actual" Roma.

Anyway, excuse my puerile ramblings(!) --Mal 08:15, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

how is this story

actually i havent completed it i have to write another 1000 words but could you give me a rating .is it good or or will it be chucked into the well populated junkyard of crappy story's.im trying to create an element of suspense .are my efforts fruitful?

THE WEB OF LIFE A spider weaves a web, people weave one of treachery or deceit, but inseparable from all of us is the web of life that has many entangled in it and has maintained interconnectivity in our life through the ages.

*********************

the writer ,despised by many sat by his window sill ,watching the world below him . he then climbed onto the window ad shouted from his weary heart ,”Into the hands of thy concrete jungle do I commend my spirit “

***********************

their funds had been ready ,but their arrival had been delayed by a few high ranking members of their order. Surprisingly they had been against the trip as a whole and so they had been named ‘the skeptics’ by the rest of the members; but what could they do .the skeptics were high ranking members in the order ;privy to most secrets .unlike the ‘Young members’

they had to convince the skeptics but would the skeptics listen ;that was the question plaguing their minds .

******************************

the radicals hated the conservative and the mouth piece organization ‘The New Order for The Conservative Times’. TNOCT as the conservatives called was the rally point for any one who was against the new radical ideas in the society. The TNOCT was not even a major player in the everyday scene but when Ezra Marion joined their ranks their membership swelled .they hated the traitor …..

He had to be terminated.

*****************

during their struggle to be heard they had to undergo many transitions but essentially their roots could be traced to the conservatives of the previous century .

one of their experiments had been to include a promising, young writer into their ranks , but eventually he was demarcated as an ‘undesirable’ because he was too liberal for the elders .but they couldn’t expel him he had a huge clout among the younger members .

He had to be exterminated .

***************************

the author sensing his unwelcome presence among the elders began distancing himself from them, he too began formulating a plan.

************************* two men, geared up they would be having a long day : even they knew it ,they didn’t know each other . one of them had a cause, the other was in for money .One drove a rundown car , and the other was chauffeured in a limousine. Their paths were to meet that day.

******************* the radicals hated a traitor more than the TNOCT , he had been groomed by them, but he had broken the ranks :he had joined the enemy .

*********************

Day as its custom dawned ,but everything else that took place was unaccustomed. Ezra Marion stood up aware that every step he took would be the last few ones .The plan that he was developing in his mind was ridden with loopholes ,he felt that he had to improvise it, otherwise his efforts would be futile .

The young members were waiting for a taxi near the airport ,each one of them fatigued by the long flight but excited to meet the great ‘Ezra Marion’

The two assassins were ready their minds set they began to embark on their mission ,each determined to succeed in their mission ,each with one goal and survival their instinct.. But their social standings were totally different one had campaigned in the grassroots while the other kept himself for multimillion dollar contracts .but today what every they expected is no where close to where fate had planned to lead them .

The skeptics had planned a party ,actually a downfall bash with which they could celebrate the dethroning of their greatest enemy. Would they be disappointed ,only the day’s progression could tell them .

Ezra Marion had one quality in serendipical proportions ; the ability to maintain a clear head.

"is serendipical proprtions a correct and good usage ." thank youMi2n15 13:16, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Language : serendipital is slightly more in use (personal research using google). See also punctuation (no space before a dot, one after.)

Literature : your use of relatively rare words must be a deliberate choice. But then you are off the beaten path.

Plot : I'm not convinced. Your rating is excellent anyway because so little people try really something! -- DLL ^{.. T} 19:13, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

any possibilties or methods to improve the plot , is the starting part good ?Mi2n15 10:51, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean "commend my spirit" or "commit my spirit" ? StuRat 11:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I think he did mean "commend". As per Jesus on the cross "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit" (Luke 23:46). JackofOz 03:53, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Divers(e)

When did 'Diverse' get an 'e' on the end, and why? Skittle 15:33, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Because it was borrowed from French? 惑乱 分からん 15:51, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

See Silent E. -THB 16:20, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Also see Etymonline's entry. 惑乱 分からん 17:18, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, that suggests that the variation is very old, but doesn't really go into it. Every time I see it in older writing (up to 19th century?), it is spelled 'divers', and every time in modern 'diverse'. I was wondering if there was some story behind it, some fashion or influential work. I don't see anything in Silent E; am I missing something? Skittle 19:00, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps as a way of differentiating it from "divers" (people who dive). AnonMoos 22:51, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, that doesn't seem sufficient reason, by itself. After all, people must have been diving for centuries before the spelling changed, and many English words are spelled the same with a greater potential for confusion (read, lead), and they haven't changed. Come on linguists! :-) Skittle 19:12, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

My guess is that it was to standardise the spelling of words that end with the ers sound (eg. reverse, universe, verse, terse), precisely because divers confuses the eye in that it looks like a plural noun, or a possessive noun with a missed apostrophe, but is actually an adjective. I remember coming across the expression "talking in divers tongues" in a school Bible lesson. I assumed it had something to do with the tongues of people who dive, and my teacher had to come to my rescue. I can't think of any other word ending in -ers that is pronounced ers, so without a compelling case to keep this unique spelling it was only a question of time before it was altered. As for when this change happened, I can't help. It may have been around the time "shew" (meaning show) was changed to "show". Mind you, this doesn't explain why "worse" is not spelled "werse". JackofOz 01:26, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I recall from an English class that there is in fact a difference between "diverse" and "divers." I don't recall exactly what that difference is, but a good trek through your favorite dictionary could prove useful. --Doubleplusungood 03:47, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Interesting (and you too Jack!). I suppose I'm really asking here because I don't have a good dictionary, nor access to one at the moment. I was hoping that the linguists of the reference desk had many lovely books full of this sort of thing (even just the OED?), and could thus tell me the relevant bit. Skittle 00:05, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

My Hamlyn Encylopedic World Dictionary says that "divers" means several, sundry; and is sometimes used pronominally ("divers of them"); and "diverse" means 1. of a different kind, form character etc; unlike. 2. of various kinds or forms; multiform. Both words derive from the Latin diversus, pp, lit. turned different ways. This suggests you could use "diverse" to describe a single thing (such as a diverse community), whereas "divers" can only refer to more than one thing. Despite that, I think the meanings have become somewhat merged. My dictionary (published in 1972) does not say that divers is archaic, but I'm sure it would be so considered nowadays. JackofOz 01:00, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. That has added to my knowledge :-) So people could talk in divers tongues, or a diverse tongue? Skittle 22:58, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Quaker language

I'm reading Uncle Tom's Cabin and I've noticed that the Quakers say things like "And what'll thee do when thee gets there." and "How is thee?". There are lots of thees and a couple of thy and thines, but no thous. My question is, did Quakers in America really talk like this, or does Harriet Beecher Stowe not know how to use the old second person singular? Skittle 15:37, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

See this discussion. Mostly "thou" was used to address God. -THB 16:17, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Also see Thou#Religious_uses. 惑乱 分からん 17:13, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. The discussion suggests they really did use 'thee' for nominative, although the article suggests this is a stereotype. All very interesting. Thanks again. Skittle 18:56, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

• See "Adam Bede" hotclaws**== 09:22, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll add that to my list to read, Hot. Skittle 19:13, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I was told by a Latin teacher that "thou" is related to the Latin nominative pronoun "tu," and that "thee" is related to the Latin objective pronoun "te."

Word for all colonies

Is there a word that encompasses the world of all great colonial empires (England, France, Spain, Portugal, Holland?)?Mr.K. 20:29, 24 November 2006 (UTC).

Have a look at the History of colonialism. Apart from Imperialism I can think of no single term that would unite such disparate political and cultural entities. Clio the Muse 23:12, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

"The colonial empires" sounds reasonable to me... 惑乱 分からん 22:09, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

November 25

French : subjonctif or indicatif? : espérez-vous que, je ne pense pas que,....

Hello,

all these years of studying French and I still haven't figured it out completely. Is there anything harder than the difference between subjonctif and indicatif? :

for instance

"déclarez-vous que....?"

"je ne pense pas que..."

"je ne peux pas dire que..."

"je n'espère pas que..."

"est-il convaincu que...?"

"je n'ai pas vu que"

(This is not homework! :)) And I did do a Google search and...some of my constructions gave both indicatif and subjonctif hits? What's going on??

Thank you , Evilbu 00:17, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

TTBOMK, there are times when you are required to use the subjunctive or else the sentence is just grammatically wrong. However, there are other times when there are minor meaning differences depending on the form used (I think). --Cody.Pope 06:08, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Je ne pense pas que is definitely followed by le subjonctif - I'm quite sure of that. Ditto je n'espère pas que.... The others I'm not sure about, but they look like they would need it (especially the convaincu one), but like M. Cody.Pope said, it would depend on the meaning implied. -- the GREAT Gavini 08:21, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I put most example with idiot. : easy to understand for everyone :)

• "déclarez-vous que....?" --> Indic --> "Déclarez-vous qu'il est idiot?"
• "je ne pense pas que..." --> Subj -->"Je ne pense pas qu'il soit idiot."
• "je ne peux pas dire que..." --> Both semmes to me correct ("Je ne peux pas dire qu'il soit idiot", "Je ne peux pas dire qu'il est idiot". In the first sentence, it is really impossible to say or not. In the second, it means "I cannot say he is silly (but I really think he is silly).
• "je n'espère pas que..." --> subj, but, actually, we don't really use this form ("Je n'espère pas qu'il soit perdu", but "J'espère qu'il n'est pas perdu" (quite a different meaning))
• "est-il convaincu que...?" --> not really used as well

I hope it will help. (I am French)--15.203.169.125 11:31, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Merci, mais maintenant je n'en comprends rien!

First of all :

• "espérez-vous que...?"
• "je nie que..."
• "je ne peux pas nier que..."

And for the rest, my book literally says, for "vraisemblance, certitude, opinion, déclaration, perception", use indicatif in an affirmative sentence, use subjonctif in a question or negative sentence?? So what should I do, apart from finding a better book :).?Evilbu 17:40, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Recordings in Different Dialects of Mandarin

Does anyone know where I could find recordings of speakers of different dialects of Mandarin speaking or reading a passage of text? Thanks in advance. --Philosofinch 04:03, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Are there different dialects of Mandarin? I thought Mandarin was a single dialect. 惑乱 分からん 09:42, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there are. See Mandarin dialects. I don't think it is easy to find such recordings, try to ask some different native speakers to read it for you. Yao Ziyuan 09:53, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Using a single word multiple times to form a sentence

Using a single word multiple times to form a (somewhat complete) sentence. Is there a linguistic term for these?

The only example I can think of/concoct is: "Will Will will Will's will?" (eg "Will William will Bill's will?")

I vaguely recall reading a few examples, and "the longest in English", in a compilation of word games, years ago. Thanks :) --Quiddity 04:19, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if there's a name for these things, but you might like to read Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo. --Anonymous, 05:34 UTC, November 25.

Perfect! Thanks. --Quiddity 06:54, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Or the innkeeper who went outside and admonished the signpainter: "You've left too much space between George and and and and and Dragon." (you've left too much space between George and (the) and, and (the) and, and dragon). ny156uk 16:06, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

See this one in Chinese language: Lion-Eating Poet in the Stone Den, it uses 92 "shi" to form a short story. Yao Ziyuan 16:10, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Although I don't know if it counts, there are different words pronounced differently. 惑乱 分からん 16:14, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

How about this one: "Bears bear hard hard yarn yarns" 68.231.151.161 06:15, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

My favourite, which popped into meaning for me like a Magic Eye picture after hours of contemplation, would be "Mary, where Fred had had 'had', had had 'had had'. 'Had had' had had the teacher's approval.". Punctuation added for ease of reading, but it looks even better without. Skittle 15:29, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

IPA for "spinel"

Spinel is pronounced "spin-el", but how do I write this in IPA? I want to differentiate between this, and "spine-ell". --HappyCamper 05:22, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

If you stress the second syllable (like I do), you get /spɪˈnɛl/. Speakers who stress the first syllable (making the word basically monosyllabic) say something like /ˈspɪnl/.  --Lambiam^Talk 06:42, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

/ˈspɪnl/ isn't monosyllabic. The /l/ is the nucleus to the unstressed syllable. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 06:56, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I was just about to mention /ˈspɪnl̩/. --Kjoonlee 07:03, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

food (bread) definition

Some years ago, older members of my family referred to the "heel" (end) of a loaf of bread as the "rafee" or "rafie." Does anyone recognize that term, and how is it spelled, and where did it come from? (unsigned question moved to here from misc. reference desk)

Is it a nautical family with a penchant for colorful metaphors? The raffee (also known as moonraker) is a sail set above a ship's royals (the highest sails otherwise). See the second image here for an example that might, I suppose, be likened to the heel of a breadloaf. (Even less likely, we have the raphe, two syllables, from Greek rhaphē, "stitching," denoting the seam along the middle of the skull, a wound's suture, etc., kind of evocative of the seam you sometimes have in an unbaked loaf...? Okay, I'm grasping at straws.) Wareh 00:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

If you live in the UK

Hey guys, I was reading threw the Groundhog Day (film) article and I found this:

The phrase "Groundhog Day" has entered common use as a reference to an unpleasant situation that continually repeats, or seems to. In the UK, the phrase is almost always used in this sense, as groundhogs are not native and the American "six more weeks of winter" Groundhog Day tradition does not exist.

The term is also entering the real world lexicon as witnessed by the following comments from R. Nicholas Burns, undersecretary of state for political affairs, on talks on the Israel/Lebanon conflict in August 2006. "We’d go home at 10 or 11 at night and say, ‘Tomorrow will be a better day.’ But the next day was Groundhog Day all over again."

I've never heard this used in the American vernacular, and was wondering if it is exclusive to the UK or did I just miss something? (also, forgive the ridiculousness of the question generally, but I still would like some sort of answer) --Cody.Pope 06:03, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

The phrase is not used in the UK, in any fashion; not in my experience anyway. The average British person could not tell a groundhog from a gopher. The article on Groundhog Day identifies it as a North American tradition. Clio the Muse 06:27, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

No that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about as it is described in the sense of a bad thing happening day after day. This seems to me to be an exclusive UK usage. --Cody.Pope 06:40, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

My apologies; I have not expressed myself clearly, though I thought I had. Anyway, let me repeat-it is not used in any sense whatsoever, good or bad. The article in question is wrong in point of fact. Clio the Muse 06:50, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I don't live in the UK, but I can do a Google search on "groundhog day" -murray site:uk. (The -murray is to reduce the number of hits on the film.) Google estimates the number of hits at over 66,000, and scanning the top 20 of these, I see these pages using the phrase in the sense Cody describes, or talking about such use: [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8]. Maybe Clio hasn't encountered it personally, but this seems pretty good evidence that the phrase is used by a fair number of people in the UK. (Perhaps particularly by people in the news media and politics.)

Searching for similar uses on US sites is harder, both because there are so many false hits (about the real-life Groundhog Day, the film, etc.) and because most US sites are in the non-national .com domain. However, I was able to locate some examples of the usage that appear to be from the US: [9] [10] [11] [12] [13]. So, no, it's not unknown there... although I note that in one case the writer felt obliged to explain the expression.

--Anonymous, 11:48 UTC, November 25.

If the term "Groundhog Day" is being used to refer to an unpleasant situation that repeats itself, the use doesn't make any sense at all in relationship to what the day itself is. -THB 07:40, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

• "It's deja-vu all over again"hotclaws**== 09:24, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I live in the Uk and I would consider groundhog day to be an event reoccuring over and over. This would be based on the film which portrays a man stuck living out 'groundhog day' for an unspecified period of time (according to the DVD commentary track they figured it should be about 10 years worth of the same day). As a result the phrase will, I expect, be known by most people in the UK for its meaning from the film, not from the actual event (which if the film is accurate is a reference to a groundhog being used to predict a long winter/early spring). So if I was going over something with somebody several times and getting frustrated I may say something like "it's like groundhog day with you". ny156uk 15:59, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks guys. That is generally an awesome phenomenon and I'm glad the wikipedia article was right, otherwise it would have been a good example of wikiality. --Cody.Pope 05:15, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it's definitely used in the media in the UK. It's basically a lazy journo's way of avoiding using deja vu too many times. Groundhog Day, in the UK, only ever refers to the film, and is always used in that context (of events / a day repeating themselves endlessly). Plus ca change, plus ca meme chose. Proto::type 14:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Just in case there was any doubt, I shall add to the consensus that 'Groundhog Day' is indeed used in the UK (not infrequently) to refer to something happening over and over, and just about never to refer to the American 'day' itself. Clio must just read different newspapers to me :-) Skittle 15:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Almost all the hits for "groundhog" in the BBC website refer to the phrase [14]. Indeed, the Conservative Party once picketed a Labour Party conference all dressed as groundhogs to because they felt that Labour policies were not fresh so they had "heard it all before".[15] Laïka 12:35, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

What does this word mean?

The word is: Ashanteé (I doubt this is the correct spelling, it's pronounced "Ashauntay")

I think it's French but I'm unsure.

- Pyro19 07:44, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Could it be enchanté ("delighted", etc.), perchance? Or maybe (tu) as chanté or (il, elle, etc.) a chanté? -- the GREAT Gavini 08:12, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Yup, enchanté is what I was trying to get at. Is it possible to use the word in place of "nice to meet you?" - Pyro19 08:44, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes [16]. --wj32 ^{talk | contribs} 08:45, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I thought you were talking about Ashanti =S (That's not French, though...) 惑乱 分からん 09:39, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks guys. - Pyro19 09:50, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

An option I was thinking of was a Frenchman sneezing and saying 'bless you' ('santé') to himself at the same time. DirkvdM 08:16, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Meaning of "Lyrstan"

Over at the humanities desk there was a question about the word "lyrstan", being the name given to the steel from which a spark was struck to start a fire. I assume the name refers to it's shape and composition (see the picture there), and is a Scandinavian word, but that is a guess. Does anyone have authoritative information? Seejyb 11:24, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't look much like a Scandinavian word (where stone is stein or sten), perhaps it's Old English, where "stan" meant "stone"? 惑乱 分からん 13:28, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I only said that it is someone's user name on what looks like a Nordic site. DirkvdM 08:54, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

My guess would be a bad transcription of fyrstan Old English for fire-stone i.e. a stone that makes fire. meltBanana 20:16, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable, "fyrstan" allegedly was used for "flint" sometimes. Most hits for fyrstan seems to be in Old Norse or Icelandic, although that word means "first", afaik. 惑乱 分からん 21:35, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

That makes perfect sense. The original source had a typo - "L" for "F". Fyrstan is flint. -THB 05:31, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Buying tickets online for gigs in france (from the UK)

Hi, please could someone tell me what the main online ticketing agencies are in france. Preferably those with the best reputation.

Cheers

I would use the fnac. Skarioffszky 17:36, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

languages - German,French,Spanish,Chinese

I want to be able to access these different languages from Wikipedia to study them in my home at my own pace. Does Wikipedia have links or pages available for me to access the complete languages (or as comprehensive as possible) of German, French, Spanish, and Chinese for me to study ?

Thank You for your help today,

Tanya---18:12, 25 November 2006 (UTC)~

Wikipedia's articles about the German language, the French Language, the Spanish language and the Chinese language will give you a lot of information, and wikibooks has some language courses: [17], [18], [19], [20]. Skarioffszky 18:21, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Made-Up Word

what is the word for a "made up" word, which has previously never been recorded or spoken?

Neologism. -THB 06:28, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

November 26

French pronunciation of "Marseille"

I'm wondering what is the correct pronunciation of the French football team, Olympique de Marseille. I saw the city name can pronounced both ways in Mar-say [maʀsɛj] or Mark-say [mɑxˈsɛjɐ]. Thanks --Manop - TH 02:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

You could say the name both ways. It depends on where you are in France, [mɑxˈsɛjɐ] is more southern french sounding and [maʀsɛj] more northern or parisian. More or less anyway. --Cody.Pope 05:08, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

See French pronunciation. The two pronunciations are not as different as you might imagine because the k is not aspirated, it's not crisp as it is in English. It's more like saying R in the back of your throat, like pirates saying "Arrr". -THB 06:23, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Though, I would add that if you say [mɑxˈsɛjɐ] (i.e. the way they say it in Marseille) you'll probably offend a Parisian, plus you'll mark yourself as someone that learned French in Marsielle. To me, the real difference between the two isn't the r but that jɐ at the end. --Cody.Pope 06:29, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Note that maybe the 'rrr' should be in the back of the throat, but the 'a' certainly shouldn't. That is a common type of mispronunciation by anglophones of many foreign languages, including French and Spanish, which are pronounced very much in the front of the mouth. Well, the vowels anyway, not necessarily the consonants, but maybe I'm generalising too much now. DirkvdM 09:00, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm always unsure about whether or not I should prononounce the "u" soudn : the "ue" in olympique and "e" at the end of Marseille.Evilbu 12:30, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

In 'olympique' it's mute (so ends with a 'k') and in 'Marseille' it's 'uh' (with a mute 'h' :) ). DirkvdM 19:25, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you all. --Manop - TH 19:51, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Dirk, thankfully you and I speak one of the few languages without silent vowels or consonants:).Evilbu 23:08, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Parts of Speech

I am looking for the opposite of personification. Personification is giving human characteristics to inanimate objects. What is the word for giving inanimate characteristics to humans? (ie. He was stone cold.)(He waved like the ocean.) I know there is a word. In 1963 in my art history class, a person said the word. The professor had never heard of it. We looked it up in the dictionary and it was there.

 Thank you in advance for the answer.

Objectification? Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 05:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Neoaudiophilia or audioneophilia?

What is the correct term for a love of novelty in music? NeonMerlin 06:12, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

"A love of novelty in music" would be a correct term in English. Neither "neoaudiophilia" nor "audioneophilia" is a word. -THB 06:26, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Or at least, they aren't until someone makes them one. --Ptcamn 08:24, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

In which case it would be a neologism (three threads up). DirkvdM 09:02, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

If I had to choose one word, I'd choose neoaudiophilia. 惑乱 分からん 10:12, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

But then why not neomusicophilia? (a) It uses Greek roots throughout instead of a Latin-Greek mix; (b) audio means "hearing", not "music" (love of new hearing is when you get a new hearing aid) – although musico- may be more general than music too, encompassing, e.g., dance.  --Lambiam^Talk 10:49, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, the manifesto for the original New Music was this by Timotheus (musician):

οὐκ ἀείδω τὰ παλαιά,

καινὰ γὰρ ἀμὰ κρείσσω•
νέος ὁ Ζεὺς βασιλεύει,
τὸ πάλαι δ᾽ ἦν Κρόνος ἄρχων•

ἀπίτω Μοῦσα παλαιά.

Wareh 01:13, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Arabic Question

A korean friend of mine is asking me if I know what this means. Can anyone help?

صباح أمس عن انطلاق الحملة الوطنية لمكافحة الحرائق تحت شعار فلتكن السلامة هدفنا وتستمر حتي يونيو 2005. وأكد العقيد راشد العتيق مدير إدارة العلاقات العامة بالأمن العام ان الهدف من الحملة هو الحد من نشوب الحرائق والحيلولة دون تكرارها والتعريف بمخاطرها وأضرارها وأسبابها وسبل تفاديها الي جانب تنمية الوعي الأمني والوقائي واثراء ثقافة المواطن والمقيم للوقاية من الحرائق والكوارث والخسائر المترتبة عليها وت

Thanking you all. CCLemon-安部さん万歳！ 10:40, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure it's Arabic language, and not just Arabic alphabet? Source and context? 惑乱 分からん 10:44, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Since it's got lots of "al-" and ta-marbuta, I'd say it's a pretty fair bet that it's Arabic, but I don't know enough Arabic to read it. --ColinFine 13:30, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

According to this site which provides automatic translation from Arabic to English, the translation is:

Morning yesterday about national departure the campaign for struggle of the fires under slogan so to the safety harbors aimed and continues until June 2005. The colonel confirmed grown-up old manager administration of the general relationships in the general security that the goal from the campaign he lessen outbreak of the fires and the prevention without her her repetition and the definition in dangers and her harms and her reasons and spike avoided her to side development of the security consciousness and preventive and enrichment culture of the citizen and the evaluator for the resulting protection from the fires and the disasters and the losses on her [wt]

So it definitely is Arabic, but more context is needed to make sense out of the automatic translation. --Norwegian Blue ^talk 14:45, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Google translation seems to do a little better:

Yesterday morning, the launching of the national campaign to fight the fires under the slogan "Let our safety", and will continue until June 2005. The Colonel Rashid, the veteran manager of public relations public security that the aim of the campaign is to reduce fires and prevent their recurrence and the risk and harm the definition, causes and ways to prevent the development of security awareness and preventive and enrich the culture of the citizen and resident of prevention of fires and disasters and the loss of consequent Witt

AnonMoos 16:56, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

：：：Thanks a lot folks! I knew it was Arabic, as I recognized some of the words, but couldn't read the whole thing. Cheers! I'll tell her what it means when she logs onto Messenger. CCLemon-安部さん万歳！ 04:15, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

which language has largest number of words

Please look at Word and then see if there is still a meaningful question you want to ask. And please sign your contributions with four tildes (~~~~) --ColinFine 17:51, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

how to plan for future

how to plan for future

See Gosplan ;) --Dementios

The future of what? Getting the groceries in before the shops close is always sensible. In the longer term, making a will is useful. As is taking out a pension plan. Pessimists like to build bunkers.--Shantavira 18:28, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

The nice thing about the future is that it will happen anyway, whether you plan for it or not.  --Lambiam^Talk 19:52, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

That may not be all that nice if your unplanned future turns out to be poverty and ill-health, as compared with a planned future of prosperity and good health. JackofOz 01:37, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

translation of a phrase in greek or english

I gcosa duine a bhios a shlainte

It looks a lot more Celtic than Greek to me... AnonMoos 16:36, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the questioner is asking for it in Greek or English, but I may be wrong.

It is Irish. 'Duine' is 'man', and 'slainte' is 'health'. I don't know 'cosa' (of which 'gcosa' is the eclipsed form, and I suspect 'bios' is a form of the verb 'to be', but I don't know. Unfortunately I only have an English/Irish dictionary, not the other way round.

Please sign your contributions with four tildes (~~~~). --ColinFine 17:54, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

It means, "A person's health is in his feet" [21]. So cos seems to mean means "leg/foot". Can't help you on the Greek, though. Lesgles (talk) 00:02, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

welsh greeting

What does Boro Da mean?

Maybe you spelled it wrong. 'Bore da' means 'Good morning'--Light current 01:18, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

It's often translated more as "good day" (though technically that's dydd da). Grutness...wha? 05:23, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Could be. But Good afternoon is: Prynhawn da. And good night is of course: Nos da--Light current 13:33, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

What 14 letter english word has 6 letters that are the same?

What 14 letter english word has 6 letters that are the same?

I wrote a little python script to look for them in /usr/share/dict/words, and this is what it came up with:

• assassinatress
• degenerescence
• indivisibility
• monogonoporous
• odontonosology
• possessingness
• possessionless
• possessiveness
• possessoriness
• resistlessness
• stresslessness —Keenan Pepper 00:23, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Can this condition be expressed as a regular expression? —Keenan Pepper 00:27, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Interesting list. To me, "indivisibility" and "possessiveness" are the only ones that don't have a somewhat contrived feel, but obviously they have all been used or they wouldn't be in there.

I don't think a standard regexp engine can do this query; it can find words with 6 letters the same (assuming that it supports back-references), or words of a specific length, but not both at once. However, perl regexps have a lookahead feature that makes it possible. Watch this:

perl -ne 'print if /^(?=.{14}$).*(.)(.*\1){5}/' /usr/share/dict/words

(To be exact, that looks for 6 or more letters the same, but you could make it exactly 6 by using a negative lookahead.)

--Anonymous, 06:23 UTC, November 27.

In the strict (from formal language theory) definition of regular expressions of course one can be written that recognizes that language - it's a finite language. In terms of POSIX regular expressions I think Anon is correct, since they have neither an intersection nor a complement operator. Well, at least it can't be done easily. If you want to write out the disjunction of (14 choose 6) (over 3000) different patterns that the matching letter could be in, then yes, you'll have a very long regular expression that will do the trick. ^L_Wizard @ 11:27, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

There's also "Nesslessness" (a state exhibited by every lake in the world other than Loch Ness).  :) JackofOz 01:43, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

That's not 14 letters though.  :) --Bowlhover 04:51, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

True. How about Nesslessnesses (but that has 7 s's). JackofOz 05:04, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

LOL@JoOZ. Also (it's a bit of a stretch, but not to a poet, or a cheesy romance writer for that matter), restlessnesses. Anchoress 01:54, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

November 27

Latin

Hiya all! Could someone please tell me where I could get a list of Latin to English words? I need a nice long one. I've learnt most of the grammar, I just need the words. Cheers! Lenadi 01:41, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Select "Lewis and Short" from the drop-down menu here. (If you want your word list all at once, you may like this very short one or this huge dictionary file, both of which I found near the top of a Google search results page.) Wareh 02:16, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Strange way to learn a language:without the words! Dont you have a vocabulary lesson?--Light current 03:20, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Eşkıya Dünyaya

How would the following lyrics be translated from Turkish?

Sene 1341 mevsime uydum

Sebep oldu şeytan bir cana kıydım

Katil defterine adını koydum

Eşkıya dünyaya hükümdar olmaz

Sen üzülme anam benim dertlerim çoktur

Çektiğim çilenin hesabı yoktur

Yiğitlik yolunda üstüme yoktur

Eşkıya dünyaya hükümdar olmaz

Çok zamandır çektim kahrı zindanı

Bize de mesken oldu Sinop'un hanı

Firar etmeyilen buldum amanı

Eşkıya dünyaya hükümdar olmaz

Sinop kalesinden uçtum denize

Tam üç gün üç gece göründü Rize

Karşı ki dağlardan gel oldu bize

Eşkıya dünyaya hükümdar olmaz

Bir yanımı sardı müfreze kolu

Bir yanımı sardı Varilcioğlu

Beşyüz atlıylan kestiler yolu

Eşkıya dünyaya hükümdar olmaz

Mo-Al 15:54, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Into what language? -THB 16:29, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

If it isn't defined, probably English... 惑乱 分からん 21:41, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

English would be best, yes. Mo-Al 23:59, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "Latin"

How is "Latin" pronunced (endonym/exonym)? Could you add this to the Latin article? Is the "t" retroflex? —Masatran 13:05, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

In English or Latin? 惑乱 分からん 14:10, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The word "Latin" in Latin itself would be Lingua Latina (or sometimes Latina for short, or also Latine as an often-used adverbial form). The [t] in the word, from all evidence of historical phonology, was an ordinary non-aspirated non-retroflex simple plain [t]. AnonMoos 16:39, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

So is the [t] in the English word. Retroflex t does not occur in standard English phonology. There is nothing particular about how "Latin" is pronounced in English; it is pronounced "just as you would expect" (insofar as that is possible in English): /ˈlætn/, so it would be pointless to add that to the article. Although we have a reasonable guess how Lingua Latina was pronounced in Latin, there is no certainty about the precise details; additionally, the pronunciation of Latin changed considerably during the 17 centuries or so it was spoken as a living language.  --Lambiam^Talk 17:28, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Phonetically, English /t/ is quite different in initial position and after /s/. Compare [tʰɪn], [stɪŋ]. --Kjoonlee 19:12, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

"just as you would expect"? Following the rules, shouldn't it have a "long a"? --Ptcamn 19:47, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Would expect by analogy to words like cabin and satin, and if you accept proper names or look beyond a also cretin, florin, Gavin, Marin, resin and robin. We have a "long a" in basin, but that is the odd-man-out in this company.  --Lambiam^Talk 21:47, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

"Florin" doesn't fit that pattern in my dialect (contrast its first vowel with "robin"), and "cretin" is often pronounced with a long vowel (M-W, OED). Tesseran 04:57, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

In my dialect of English, it's /ˈlætɪn/, with a definite (though reduced) vowel in the second syllable. --ColinFine 01:02, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Ni yello

In westerns I often hear Indians use the ending '-ello', most often '-yello' and even more specifically in 'ni yello'. What do these mean? I hear it so often that I get the impression it's not restricted to one Indian language. DirkvdM 17:19, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Context? 惑乱 分からん 22:10, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Are we talking about Bollywood westerns with people from India, or Hollywood westerns with indigenous persons from North America? JackofOz 01:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Does Bollywood make westerns? :) More specifically, I hear it a lot in Into the West (TV miniseries). DirkvdM 04:25, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

welsh greeting

how do you say "goodbye" in Welsh? (Unsigned)

Hwyl--Light current 01:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Hwyl. DirkvdM 04:26, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes I just said that! Are you going now or something?--Light current 04:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

vowels

wht is shortest word using all vowels

I'd venture Aa (plant). --Wooty Woot? contribs 22:42, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Check out English words with uncommon properties#Many vowels. --jh51681 23:02, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Oi! I'd guess a word you want is yea?

O master, how excellent! JackofOz 01:44, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The questioner might intend a word which uses all of the vowels in the English alphabet (from Jh51681's link):

"The shortest word containing the five regular vowels is eunoia at six letters, followed by sequoia (and a variety of rarer words such as Aeonium, eulogia, miaoued) at seven. The shortest words with all six vowels are eukaryotic and aureomycin." Tesseran 04:06, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Romans

What sort of accent did the Ancient Romans have. Was it like todays Italian?

It's impossible to tell, though spoken Latin sounds very little like modern Italian. Clio the Muse 00:33, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

There's quite a lot of literature on it. IIRC, W. Sidney Allen wrote a pair of books Vox Latina and Vox Graeca on how Latin and Greek were pronounced. It is pretty certain that some of the consonants were very different from Italian (<c> and <g> did not palatalise to /tʃ/ and /dʒ/ before front vowels, for example), but I don't think the vowels were so different (at least in quality - length was phonemic). --ColinFine 01:07, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but while reconstructing ancient vowels & consonants is fairly straightforward, the subtler patterns that are heard as an "accent" can't be known as reliably. Wareh 01:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Moutpiece?

Can the mouthpiece for an instrument such as a trumpet also be called a "moutpiece"? I saw this spelling in a flyer for a trumpet, and I thought it was a spelling mistake, but I did a google search for the term "moutpiece" and it brought up 800 pages. There's even a band called "moutpiece" on www.moutpiece.com But is it a correct spelling? 800pages isn't that much, and there's no Wiki page on it.

Also, where did the expression " Man Alive!" Originate from? I want to start using this expression, and I'd like to know what it means.

Thankyou.--172.150.151.23 23:44, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I have never encountered 'moutpiece' before, and would take it to be a typo, or possibly a representation of the word in certain regional accents. --ColinFine 01:09, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm. Man alive you say. There used to be a current affairs programmme on British TV by the title about 20 yrs ago.--Light current 01:44, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Common misspellings can result in a significant number of Google hits. -THB 02:05, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Moutpiece is even spelt that way in several books in google book search. OED says "any man alive" or "all men alive" has long been used to add emphasis, earliest cite 1230. Alive later (19th C) becoming a general intensifier "man alive!", "saints alive!", "snakes alive!". meltBanana 03:20, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Farewell

I need to give an official farewell in a minor exaggerated way.70.136.89.0 03:43, 28 November 2006 (UTC

And?--Light current 03:16, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

(ellipsis) And could you language experts give me some help..70.136.89.0 03:43, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Please sign your post using four tildes, like this: ~~~~. -THB 03:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Is this to co-workers when you're quitting a job, breaking up with your boyfriend, saying goodbye to your sister when you're going on a six-week cruise? -THB 03:48, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

old friends that don't really care 70.136.89.0 05:57, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Give each of them a small, thoughtfully chosen gift, sure to please the recipient, to remember you by, and explain the purpose of the gift. -THB 06:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Latin

What are the Latin words for 'Yes' and 'No'?--Light current 03:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC) Any examples would be good.--Light current 03:34, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not that simple and depends upon the context. -THB 03:33, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. My understanding is you'd be more likely to repeat the verb (Q: Esne stultus? A: Sum.). You can say "ita vero" for an emphatic yes (like "Exactly!") or "minime" for the negative equivalent, but this wouldn't be the normal way to respond to a question. -Elmer Clark 03:37, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Is this why you could never get a straight yes or no out of the Romans?8-)--Light current 03:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Veritas non est. -THB 04:00, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Holland

What does the name mean if anything?--Light current 06:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

From our page: Holland is derived from holt land ("wooded land"). Is that correct?--Light current 06:49, 28 November 2006 (UTC)