Talk:Ancient Macedonian language

I will be on watch against both Slavic FYROM nationalists and Greek nationalists who attempt to vandalize or slant this article to conform with their agendas. Decius 08:13, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Greek pan-Hellenists should realize that they are not presenting a good image of themselves when they constantly try to cover-up all the evidence that points to the ancient Macedonian language as being more different than just "a Greek dialect"; and FYROM propagandists should realize that nobody is buying their "autochthonic Slav" fantasy, which has absolutely no evidence in support of it. Decius 10:00, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I do not consider myself to be a shitfaced conceited fool, but I would prefer to see the following statement backed: From classical references, it is apparent that the Greeks viewed Macedonians as a rather separate ethnos, and recognized a marked difference between Macedonian and Greek (all dialects). This has been verified by modern linguists, who have identified a number of differences, including differences at the level of Indo-European sound-change. "From classical references..." and "This has been verified by modern linguists" isn't really convincing with any actual reference. BTW in what sense can one speak about the difference between Macedonian and Greek, as AFAIK there was no one Greek language or one Greek city state or country? User:212.53.118.141

Every thing in the article (right now as of my writing this) is backed by up references and consensus scholarly views, so don't worry about me pushing personal Point of Views. These references will be provided soon. As for your last question, Macedonian is known to have been more different than any Greek dialect, so it was not just another dialect, and I will get you a reference for that as well. Note that the article says Macedonian was very different compared to all Greek dialects, so in no way was there any suggestion that there was ever "one Greek language", so I don't know what you were looking at. As for "one Greek nation" or not, that is not a factor, and we are discussing language. Decius 10:48, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

For now, look at these links, which are representative of the scholarly consensus that ancient Macedonian was a separate language: [1]; [2]; [3]. The real references soon. Also consider that User:Dbachmann who also contributed to the article is a linguist who also has knowledge in these fields and would have spotted personal point of views. As you can see compared to what is said in the first link (which points out that ancient Macedonian may have been a Thracian not Hellenic language), this Wikipedia article is conservative, in that I presented the ancient Macedonian language as being more closely related to the Greek languages than the Thracian (because I consider that more probable, and this seems to be the consensus). The second link is The Linguist List sponsored by Michigan State University and Wayne State University, which also classifies ancient Macedonian as an extinct language, not dialect. See this link which explains who maintains The Linguist List [4]. The fact is the ancient Macedonian language was a separate Indo-European language (now extinct). This fact is being presented in a Free Encyclopedia. If certain individuals want to take advantage of this fact for their own political motives, that's a whole other problem. Decius 05:09, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

In fact, the one Point Of View that seems to have crept into the article is my belief that Macedonian can be classified as a separate Hellenic language (by this I mean more different than any Greek dialect, so it cannot be considered Greek, but can be considered closely related to Greek); in fact, many linguistic references do not class Macedonian as a Hellenic language, but classify it as a separate group, not included in Hellenic. I may have to remove this POV of mine from the article, then? Decius 06:00, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Macedonian and Phrygian

Mention of a possible relation to the Phrygian language can be added, though I personally don't see a close connection. I also find it suspicious that every other mysterious language in the general area has somehow been connected to Phrygian (i.e., Eteocretan, Thracian, Dacian, etc. etc.). Though since Phrygian seems to have been somewhat close to Greek, that can also extend to Macedonian. There were probably many things in common between Macedonian, Dacian, Thracian, Greek, and Phrygian. Decius 09:33, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

that's right, the less is known about a language, the wilder the speculations that are forwarded. The languages you list, however, do seem to have influenced each other on more than a superficial level, a phenomenon that is labelled balkanization since the Balkans are notorious as a historical linguist's nightmare. Armenian, btw, presents itself to me as layer upon layer upon layer of both Hellenic and Iranic influence, so that it is impossible to separate these from "Armenian proper". dab (ᛏ) 12:10, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that most of the similarities among those above languages mentioned are explained by balkanization (going back many centuries). I don't know much about Armenian to comment on it (though I have seen a table showing its sound-changes from PIE, which do not match Dacian or Thracian, so the old idea that Thracian had some close relation to Armenian cannot really be maintained---here I'm speaking about accepted Dacian or Thracian sound-changes already noted). Decius 12:33, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

ok, so maybe no Armenian. I remember there were lots of features unique to Greek and Armenian (including the gunaik- steml, I think?), but this may all be later contact. Armenian certainly belongs to the "Balkans" group of Indo-European (in spite of not being spoken in the Balkans...), but I am not in a position to prove or disprove any close relationship to Greek or Macedonian in particular. dab (ᛏ) 13:21, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

s

ok, I'm getting interested in this. What is the evidence of preserved intervocalic s? If there is a good example of that, the Hellenic hypothesis is out of the window, loss of s is really the earliest thing that happened to the Proto-Greeks. Anything yet earlier would just be late PIE. dab (ᛏ) 18:15, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

My reference for that 's' sound is that link that is marked as number 1 on this page, a site which is reliable, but occasionally has errors---though I've never caught a gross error on that website. Decius 19:14, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've been trying to track down a fuller glossary of Macedonian words, and I know of some beyond those in the Geo glossary---the examples might not be on the net. Decius 19:16, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There are lots of Macedonian words not mentioned in that glossary, including sarissa (a Macedonian pike), kebale (head), ade (sky), pellas (stone), et cetera. Decius 19:25, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I know the roots (because they were cited in sources) for all of these except sarissa. Decius 19:26, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The error I've caught on this site was a claim that the Dacians were "uncivilized" prior to Hellenic contact, though archaeology does not make that clear. But that's not a linguistic error. Decius 19:54, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

But for instance, its list of Dacian initial consonant sound-changes from PIE are all correct (I've seen other references affirm them, and Romanian substratum words affirm them also), so it is a reasonably well-researched site. Decius 19:57, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The site has also shown itself to be often critical---for instance, when discussing the Venetic language, the site doesn't mention the nationalist Slovenian claim that Venetic had "similarities to Slavic", which claims have been circulating in Slovenia and Croatia for decades, but they are rightfully not given credit in that site. So the site doesn't list just any crackpot theory. Decius 20:35, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Also, when discussing Illyrian, no claim of a relation to Albanian is made (as it shouldn't be), and instead the site does not support the Illyrian-Albanian theory, which also shows judgment. Decius 20:37, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

So, I assume a qualified linguist or linguists are the source of the Macedonian 's' sound being preserved. They just have to be tracked down in other references. Decius 20:39, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Here is the home page of the short glossary: [[5]. Not as sound as I would like it, but not that bad. Decius 20:50, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The other sound-change (voiced) is well-represented, and here is another one in addition to the many examples already cited here Talk:Macedon. Macedonian 'kombous' (=the molar teeth) from PIE *gembh, while ancient Greek has 'gomphos' (=peg, tooth). And notice also Macedonian initial k instead of Greek initial g. Decius 21:52, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There's no voiced or unvoiced factor here in this next example, but compare this: Macedonian darullos (=oak), Ancient Greek drus (=oak), both from PIE *deru. Decius 23:00, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If these were two modern languages we were talking about, there wouldn't be a linguist on earth who would dispute that we are dealing with two separate languages, though they are related. Ancient Macedonian and Ancient Greek (+ dialects) were certainly more different from each other than Bulgarian is from Serbian (though these are related also). Decius 21:58, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Maybe we should all review the definition of dialect and language. Decius 21:59, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If all mention of Ancient Macedonian as a separate language is erased from Wikipedia, then all mention of "Serbian" and "Macedonian" must also be erased and redirected to Bulgarian. Decius 23:04, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

nobody is suggesting that. we want balanced reporting. The comparison with the classification of modern languages is flawed, however, since modern languages, unlike Macedonian, tend to be actually known. dab (ᛏ) 06:50, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Name

I have seen the language as Old Macedonian several times, so may be the name should be added in brackets. VMORO 20:41, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)~

Alright. Decius 20:51, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Actually, Old Macedonian is also sometimes applied to Old Macedonian Slavic, according to some websites, so I'd rather not mention that term up front. Decius 21:43, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Tracking information

Okay, the Geocities version that I linked earlier (link 1 above) is a transcript of this site: [6], which is from this home page: [7]. When you click on link six, click on the icon 'Balkan & Armenian', then click on ancient Macedon on the map, then that page will come up, describing the ancient Macedonian language. Who maintains the site, and its principles, are explained here: [8]. The home page is The Indo-European Database. The information about the 's' sound-change (rather, the preservation of a sound) has to be tracked and found in other references---and I'm sure it will be found. Now, whether other linguists challenge this sound-change, I don't know. If they do, someone should provide a counter-reference. Decius 00:35, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I added the link. I'm sorry, but that's not quite good enough. You would never allow a pro-Greek statement to stay on the same grounds (found on a web page without references). I have here Mallory's and Adam's "Encyclopedia of Indo-European culture", and while they give the voiced-aspirates, they don't mention s. I am sure that if there was anything like clear evidence of s, it would be flung around all the time as a very strong argument.

I think we need to consider how to organize the information. At present, it is spread ofer this article, Macedon and the antiquity section of Macedonians. Especially the latter, which was written before any of the other two articles existed, could be redistributed. dab (ᛏ) 05:34, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I agree it's not good enough indefinitely, but for now it is. If the pan-Hellenists had support from the Indo-European Database, I would present such info in the text. I do need to find the source, though. Worst case scenario, if this 's' sound-change proves to be a disproven idea, then this sound-feature will simply be deleted. It will lessen the case to a degree, but there is still a lot of evidence and major support from linguistic references with or without the 's' factor. Especially when you consider that nowadays even small differences are seized upon to create languages, that in fact should be dialects (Macedonian Slav, Sicilian); Ancient Macedonian and Ancient Greek were more different than Macedonian Slav and Bulgarian; most references that I have seen (no exaggeration) do lean towards the separate language view. Decius 05:42, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Alright, until further verified, 's' factor will be left out. Decius 05:50, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

sure, I meant, it's not good enough for us to say "intervocalic s was preserved" in the article. Of course there is still strong evidence for Mac. as an independent dialect without that. I agree that TIED has no nationalist bias, but it's also a long shot from being an academic resource. It has a status slightly higher than your average geocities homepage. dab (ᛏ) 05:52, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Re: Edit comment: Yeah I know, the word I wanted to underscore was extinct language, not the extinct part. Decius 06:47, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

yes, well, we have established that both views are held now, so I don't see the point of collecting evidence for that on the Internet. What we want now is a more detailed history of research, with names of notable scholars who held either view. dab (ᛏ) 06:53, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Is this the book where Pokorny classifies Macedonian with the Phrygian language? : Indogermanisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch. If so, it should be put as a reference. Decius 06:51, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

yes. dab (ᛏ) 06:53, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

but note that "classifies with" simply means that he lumps them together in the index. He doesn't argue the point, and just does that for convenience's sake. It's not a positive statement, he just chalks them up unter "various". dab (ᛏ) 05:58, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The Paleo-Balkan essay written by TIED members (that I gave as a link in the article) suggests that the ancient Mac. language became extinct in BC times, and didn't survive into ad---so this is another point that has to be researched more. Decius 08:20, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

so how do they explain the glosses Hesychius collected after 400 AD? There must have been at least some remnants dab (ᛏ) 08:26, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yup. So then that proves that at least elements of the language survived as late as Hesychius. Okay, I'll erase 'perhaps'. Decius 08:30, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

tone

The generally sensible tone of the article (with the possible exception of considering it clear that the ancient Macedonians were not considered Greek) is badly counteracted by the swearing in Dacius' comments ("shitfaced", "demented" etc.). Retract.

Greek cognates

Bogdan, Macedonian kombous does have a cognate in ancient Greek: 'gomphos' (tooth, peg, bolt), known to be from PIE *gembh. Decius 22:15, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There is also gomphios which even means 'a molar tooth', also from *gembh. Decius 22:17, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

NPOV

As I have said in the Macedon talk page, there is not enough data to classify with accuracy what macedonian language was -Greek dialect of closely related to Greek.I disagree that most linguists consider macedonian as separate language and in the following days I will present a catalog of linguists. According to this, it's againsts the NPOV policy of wikipedia to write that the upper classes adopted greek language, how do you claim this? We should present all theories not showing which one we like or not.For example to speculate that macedonian are related to phrygian is extreme from linguistic point of view,since we do not have enough data. Claiming that macedonian surely were not a greek dialect cause of the differences and ingoring the fact that the vast majority of macedonian words was of greek origin is also extreme. The supporters of that theory fail to explain why there is not even a single one incription foung in macedonia in this mystirious language and why all that archaeologists have found are Greek ones. For example inscriptions in Illyrian and Thracian exist,where are those of this separate language?

And how do you explain the fact that if macedonians where a separate nation and had a different language and culture why the archaeologists haven't found something different in the area of macedonia but only findings of greek culture?Odysseas

Something else, using the term Greek to describe which language extinted the macedonian dialect or language (as I have said we can't be 100% certain what it was) is false. Since the Attic dialect was considered to be the most advanced at that time and since medieval and modern Greek dialects (apart the Tsakonian dialect in central Pelopponese which comes from Doric)came from her the correct is Attic dialect not Greek.Odysseas

There are almost no inscriptions in other Paleo-Balkan languages either. There is a very short undeciphered inscription believed to be in Thracian, a 20-letter inscription ("Decebalus per Scorillo") believed to be in Dacian, none in Illyrian (AFAIK, if you know about an actual inscription in Illyrian, please contribute at Illyrian languages), none in Paionian. bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 08:02, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I am aware of illyrian and thracian inscriptions written in greek alphabet but i can't remember them by hard, i must look in the univercity libraryOdysseas

Category

I have placed ancient macedonian language in Hellenic languages and dialects (without removing the old one)since this theory is also supported by univercities like Oxford, Cambridge and SorbonneOdysseas

Most words allegedly Greek

I took a day off yesterday from Wikipedia, but I see that yesterday was a busy day. Okay Odysseus, first of all let me clear this issue: I'm not an "expert" on the ancient Macedonian language-material (I haven't surveyed all the known Macedonian words), and while it is correct (if I remember right) that most Macedonian names were Greek, the claim that "most known Macedonian words are Greek" sounds false, so please back up that claim with a reference (preferably one we can read on the internet). I'm not an expert myself on the language, but I have surveyed the topic enough to know what most of the experts believe. Your other arguments can all be countered easily: there are no Macedonian inscriptions in this separate language, and there are also no Illyrian inscriptions in the Illyrian language; there are no Paionian inscriptions in their language; there are only a few fragmentary Thracian inscriptions; the longest Dacian inscription is a short phrase. I saw you talking about Macedonian pottery earlier, and how you say that they are all in the Greek style: even if that is true, it can be explained by this: I read in one of my books (don't remember which one, I'll try to track it down) that Macedonians traded their raw products (lumber, honey, crops, etc.) in return for finished products from the Greeks (pottery, fine clothes, etc.), so that would explain why most Macedonian pottery & artifacts (etc.) appear to be Greek. It's hard to use material culture as evidence of language. Decius 20:01, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

And I agree with you that the supposed connection of Macedonian to Phrygian is unlikely: as you can see from this Talk Page, I do not believe that Macedonian was closer to Phrygian than to Greek: but User:Dbachmann wanted to present the Phrygian-theory because it was supported by one of the most famous linguists of the 20th century:Julius Pokorny. There is at least one word in common between Macedonian and Phrygian: Bedi meant "water" in both Macedonian and Phrygian. But I doubt that Macedonian was very close to Phrygian. Decius 20:11, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Here in the U.S. (if not also in Europe and elsewhere), most dictionaries, encyclopedias, books, (etc.) support the separate language theory, and most also take it as a matter of fact that Macedonians were Hellenized, not Hellenic themselves. I have read lots of these books over the years, but they are at the library. From the books that I own, here is an example, from The World Book Encyclopedia, Volume 13, the letter M: in the "Macedonia" article, we find these sentences:

"A savage and barbaric European people called the Thracians moved into the region about 2000 B.C. After 1100 B.C., the Macedonians came under the cultural influence of the Greeks."

Now, my Encyclopedia is from 1967, but the same view I've seen in current Encycylopedias at the local libraries. Also note here that Greek influence on Macedonians goes back far into the past, long before King Philip, and we should expect this great Greek influence: because from the pattern of their conquests, it seems that the Macedonians expanded from the south (mainland Greece, Thessaly) into Macedonia: Thucydides and others make it clear that they conquered the land that would come to be called Macedonia and expelled the previous inhabitants (Thracians and Paionians, etc.): they conquered Emathia, Eordea, Mygdonia, Crestonia, etc., all of which were previously inhabited by other peoples. So the earlier Macedonian territory was basically in mainland Greece, and the Greek and Macedonian cultures mixed: so now it is difficult to tell whether Macedonian was a language or dialect, but most say it was a language. Decius 21:03, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As I have said you don't like the idea that ancient macedonian language was of greek origin.I don't understand why you erased my comments.I can also present many books specially from Oxford Univercity which are saying the opposite from you. The fact that you have limited knowledge doesn't gives you the right to deside what must be edited and what not, my friend. You also don't seem to beleive that the vast majority of macedonian words is greek, right? Then I challenge you to prove me the opposite.When I will edit here all macedonian words (names of months,names of fests,names of cities,common names) i wonder what are you going to say. 212.205.226.109

To you I say: bring everything you have in your arsenal, and we will see. Decius 21:45, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Challenge accepted...

Try to organize it as neatly as possible. Decius 22:29, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Also remember that original research cannot be used in an article, so all examples should be from linguistic sources. Decius 07:01, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

My friend, what are you talking about? You wrote: So the earlier Macedonian territory was basically in mainland Greece, and the Greek and Macedonian cultures mixed You claim that macedonians and greeks where separate nations right? And that greeks influenced macedonians right? Then where on earth are the remnants of their culture?Cause all what is found in the area is Greek. Please do not repeat what you said above in front of an archaeologist...Odysseas

You also wrote: I saw you talking about Macedonian pottery earlier, and how you say that they are all in the Greek style: even if that is true, it can be explained by this: I read in one of my books (don't remember which one, I'll try to track it down) that Macedonians traded their raw products (lumber, honey, crops, etc.) in return for finished products from the Greeks (pottery, fine clothes, etc.), so that would explain why most Macedonian pottery & artifacts (etc.) appear to be Greek. It's hard to use material culture as evidence of language.

Are you questioning the archaeological findings in Macedonia??!! Cause nor the FYROM nationalists haven't. Just go to your nearest univercity library and open whichever archaeological book you like. The explanation that macedonians traded honey,lumber,etc for pottery and that's why all pottery is greek is a joke or you are serious when you are claiming this?Odysseas

Most words Greek

Macedonian Words Part One-Personal names

Agathon Avraeas Parmenion Aeropos Alexandros Antipatros Peukestas Alketas Orontis Perdikkas Alkimachos Amyntas Andromenis Antiochos Seleykos Ptolemaeos Amphoteros Egelochos Anaxippos Antikles Antipatros Admitos Etharos Gaeteas Kratennas Stadmaeas Antigonos Antigenis Heraklides Iolaos Arpalos Arravvaeos Arridaeos Filippos Aesaeas Epimenis Aryvvas Archelaos Asandros Eynikos Attalos Kleopatra Vereniki Valakros Nikanor Derdas Sirras Eyridiki Evrylochos Eyfraeos Ippostratos Eromenis Efaestion Karanos Karsis Nikolaos Kassandros Kevalinos Kleitos Dropides Koinos Polemokaratis Lagos Laniki Leonnatos Lysimachos Neoptolemos Meleagros Menelaos Menidas Metron Orestis Filotas Paysanias Peithon Kratevas Pedikkas Peroidas Menestheas Peykolaos Polemon Polydamas Polyperchon Simmias Tlepolemos

Those names are macedonian names which are present in Arrian,Plutarch,Herodotos,Thucidides,etc, next week when the univercity library opens I will edit more personal names from incriptions,names of cities and common words.Odysseas

Alright, good luck. But I want you to realize that linguists & scholars must have already reviewed all of this, yet the predominant view in the West is still that they probably spoke a separate language. I'm just warning you ahead of time, so you won't be accusing me of ignoring your citations---I'm not ignoring what you say, just don't expect that you will single-handedly prove that Macedonians spoke a Greek dialect. It will take new archaeological findings (texts) to prove that. Decius 20:17, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What I say is that it's not logical according to what macedonian words are saved to us for them not to speak a greek dialect or at least a greek dialect with foreign elements.As I so in the macedon talk page you are speculating the meaning of some words Thucidides wrote.You shouldn't trust 100% ancient sources, since you own the History of Thucidides find the passage where he says that Aetolians were cannibals and barbarians, or what Aristofanis wrote, that Thebaeans were pigs, speaking a barbaric language that only an ox understands. You try to prove that ancient sources considered Macedonians as barbarians speculating on the meaning, but most and when I say most,I mean most ancient sources DO consider them Greeks (Arrian,Plutarch,Strabo,etc) Odysseas

I'm not sure if Thucydides ever wrote that the Aetolians were cannibals: the passage that I know says this:

"...the Eurytanians, who are the largest tribe in Aetolia, and speak, as is said, a language difficult to understand, and eat their flesh raw." (Thucydides, Pelop. 3.94)

He actually says that one of the Aetolian tribes eat raw meat, not human beings. I will check the Greek text, which I do not own but is available on the net. In the beginning of his History, Thucydides also says that the Aetolians and Acarnanians are rather barbaric and that they still live in "the old fashion", and that they always carry a weapon on their person. Thucydides was most likely speaking the truth, and he wasn't just slandering people. Decius 00:23, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In Greek, it says "agnostotatoi de glossan, kai omophagoi eisin", "whose tongue is difficult to know, and who are eaters of raw meat"---omophagoi pertains to one who eats raw meat, not human beings. Omos meant 'raw, unprepared', while phagein meant 'to eat'. Decius 00:35, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Also, I'm not sure if Thucydides ever says the Aetolians were "barbarians": read Thucydides, Pelop. book I, section 5--6 (the first book of his History). He doesn't even call them "barbaric", but he says that they always wear arms like barbarians, and they still live in the old fashion: so, he is implying a barbaric way of life, but I don't think he actually uses the word barbaros to describe the Aetolians. Decius 01:23, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

the question is, when are these names attested. Most of the people in Western Europe have Hebrew names, but that doesn't make them Hebrews. If these names are Greek rather than Macedonian, they simply say nothing about the Macedonian language. It would be rather like saying that ancient Macedonian was Slavic, just look at the many Slavic names found in the area today... dab (ᛏ) 12:16, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

So according to you all europeans have hebrew names? right? According to your logic there no greek,polish,bulgarian,french,german,etc names exist,right?....By the way are modern europeans also writing only in hebrew?Do their fests have hebrew names?....

For your information,the regions of Macedon before Philip's expantion were solely in what is today greek macedonia.Odysseas

You are right. I'm unable to tell the difference between 'all' and 'most'. Oh, wait, when I say names, of course I mean festivals. The level of this discussion is really too low to be enjoyable. I wish you'd just cite authorities, such as Greek professors, who all seem to jump on the Greek bandwagon, so we can just include their opinions and be done with it. dab (ᛏ) 15:55, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Macedonian language and it's connection with Greek

We will begin presenting some ancient sources which declare their connection with Greeks.First we have the persian inscription of 513 BC which talks about the nations which are under thei control, it speaks about Yauna Takabara in Balkan area meaning Greeks with big hats.The only nation in the balkans that had a distinguish hat where the macedonians, whith the καυσία(kafsia) hut (Walser, Die Volkerschaften auf den Reliefs von Persepolis-1966 47 E) Herodotus clearly declares that the dorians where created by the unification of the madeonians with other nations. Hellanius presents the father of macedonians, Macedon, is son of Aiolos meaning that he considered them an aeolian greek tride (Hellanius,FGrHist 4,74).Arrian (Arrian,Alexandrou Anavassis 2. 14. 4.) writes that Alexander on his letter to Dareius wrote Your ancestors came in Macedonia and rest of Greece and assaulted us.After i became leader of the Greeks i came to asia to willing to punish Persians.The phrase macedonia and rest of greece is also present in the treaty between Annibas and Philip V (Polybius, 7. 8. 9.).Also in Titus Livius (31. 29. 15.) where he places macedonians among aetolians as greek tribes.Also in Polybius (5. 103. 9.) where Agelaus from Nafpactos wishes to end wars among Aetolians and Macedonians intergreek wars as he names them.The Efessians from an inscription in Efessos (SIG 867, 38-40) ...in the macedonians and the rest Greek tribes...

Let's continue whith linguistics...

Evidences:

In a scene of the comedy Macedonians written by the poet Strattis of arount 400BC an athenaean asks a macedonian: η σφυραινα δ'έστι τις;(=what is sfyraena?-kind of fish-) and the macedonian replay: κέστραν ύμμες ωττικοί κικλήσκετε (=that thing that you Athenaeans call kestra-other kind of fish-).It needs to be pointed that Athenaean comedians presented barbarians to speak bad Greek mived with foreign words but other greek tribes to speak in their own dialects.The macedonian in the passage is speaking greek with dialecting elements ,ύμμες instead of υμείς ωττικοί instead αττικοί κικλήσκετε instead κεκλησκετε.

Alexander speaking to the 30000 persians he took to his army says to them: learn the greek language and macedonian army doctrines (Plutarch Life of Alexander 47, 3).From this passage we understand that macedonian soldiers 'spoke greek it's absurd for Alexander to force persians to learn greek if the macedonians weren't speaking greek since they would fight together.

Words: Macedonian words (apart from pesonal and city names)saved to us directly are 112.From them 63 come from ancient dictionaries and 47 from ancient sources.Those from ancient sources are all greek,those from dictionaries 50 are greek and 13 of unknown indoeuropean origin.

Personal names: Apart from the names Μακεδονια,Μακεδονες of clear greek origin from μακος(=length), we have the names of some macedonian tribes, hundreds of personal names(I've already given you),dozens of cities(also I've already given you), rivers,names of gods(Ploutonas,Persephoni,Dionysos,Estia,Iraklis,asklipios,Okeanos,etc) 6 names of fests(Peritia,Telessias, Xanthika,Arantides,etc)and 12 of months(Avdnaeos,Ippalkmos,Xandikos,Peritios,Yperaeretis,etc). For the names of the macedonian tribes Elimiotae,Lyngestae and Orestae.The first is clearly of greek origin,the second has the prefix -st- which is present in Illyrian names and the third is also greek not only in the root Ores-,but also in the ending -tae.As I proved to you before the nanes of cities and rivers (Aliakmon,etc) are greek, could you explain to me how it is possible for a non greek nation to give greek names to cities,rivers and mountains?Or how it is possible to have greek names for gods,fests and months?I'm really curious.From the personal names the 95% has greek origin and the 5% of illyrian and thracian.All the names of months and fests are greek.There is no reply for these facts from those who support that macedonians where not a greek tribe.

Connection of macedonian and other greek dialects

1)Macedonian and western Greek dialects

-dd- instead of -zz-

example the common names between these dialects Drykalos and Pefkestas

2)macedonian and aeolic

-nn- instaed of -sn- or -n- example the common word between these dialects Kranna(fountain) doric krana,attic krene the common name Xennias

3)macedonian and thessalic

-ω- instaed of -ου-

4)macedonian and arcadic

-in- instead of -en-

example the common word between these dialects zerethron(=stair)

Examples of macedonian words from ancient sources and dictionaries You can find the full catalog of macedonian words in this book:Hoffman, O. Pauly-Wissova, Real-Encyclopadie. d.kl. Altertumswiss Makedonia col.681-97

dramis(=type of bread) comes from the IE root *dera-/*deru-, dromis in achaic, dara-tos(<*dra-tos) in thessalian. daryllos instead of doryllos in achaic and in attic drys comes from *dru- means oak kammarae instead of kommorae meanig a kind of fish kynopes common word with doric akronoi common word with doric doa common word with doric akontion akontio in modern greek aspilos same word in modern greek Common creation of personal names and words with doric using endings -ator(Nikator),-asion(korasion) Common convesion of -η- into -α- with doric doric Sparta attic Sparte, macedonian kefala attic kefale Common grammar phenomenon with doric maced./doric Pafsania attic Pafsaniou,macedonian Perdikka attic Perdikkou Common creation of words ending in -an intead of -aon maced./doric peligan attic peligaon Common conversion of -os into -as with doric doric emerodromas attic emerodramas,macedonian voukefalas attic voukefalos (βους + κεφαλη =ox + head) it's Alexander's horse meaning the one with the head like an ox

Want more? Odysseas

Yes, I do want more, because everytime I turn around to look up your quotes, I find something else that calls them into question: in Plutarch's Life of Alexander, I found some interesting paragraphs, which I will quote. I also found more information about the way Greek dramatists portrayed non-Greek speakers as speaking vernacular or broken Greek. I will give the quotes in a few minutes. Decius 23:48, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

More from Plutarch

From Plutarch's Life of Alexander:

"Alexander, in the meantime turning about to Xenodochus, the Pardian, and Artemius, the Colophonian, asked them if they were not of opinion that the Greeks, in comparison with the Macedonians, behaved themselves like so many demigods among wild beasts.

But Clitus for all this would not give order, desiring Alexander to speak out if he had anything more to say, or else why did he invite men who were freeborn and accustomed to speak their minds openly without restraint to sup with him. He had better live and converse with barbarians and slaves who would not scruple to bow the knee to his Persian girdle and his white tunic.

Which words so provoked Alexander that, not able to suppress his anger any longer, he threw one of the apples that lay upon the table at him, and hit him, and then looked about for his sword. But Aristophanes, one of his life-guard, had hid that out of the way, and others came about him and besought him, but in vain; for breaking from them, he called out aloud to his guards in the Macedonian language, which was a certain sign of some great disturbance in him, and commanded a trumpeter to sound, giving him a blow with his clenched fist for not instantly obeying him..."

These are three consecutive paragraphs from Plutarch, where we see Alexander the Great himself distinguishing between Macedonians and Greeks. We also see that Alexander was bilingual (if not more): he spoke Greek usually, but when in an emotional state he spoke the Macedonian language: my English translation uses the word language, and I suppose the Greek text would use "glossan" or something like that, but I don't own the Greek text, nor have I found it on the net. So, obviously there was a Macedonian tongue that was different at least from Attic Greek---there is no conclusive evidence that this Macedonian language was a Greek dialect, and like I keep repeating, Wikipedia has to give more support to the predominant view that the ancient Macedonians spoke a separate language from Greek.Decius 00:34, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)