Talk:Anti-Americanism and Traverse City West Senior High School: Difference between pages

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{{Unreferenced|date=September 2008}}
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{{ArticleHistory
|action1=PR
|action1date=19:06, 30 August 2006
|action1link=Wikipedia:Peer review/Anti-Americanism/archive1
|action1result=reviewed
|action1oldid=72822363


{| class="infobox" style="width: 20em; text-align: left; font-size: 90%;" cellspacing="2"
|action2=GAN
! style="font-size: 111%; text-align: center; background: green; color: gold;" colspan="2" | West Senior High
|action2date=23 September 2006
|-
|action2result=not listed
| style="text-align: center;" colspan="2" |
|action2oldid=77415532
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! Logo
| [[Image:TCW.PNG|120px]]
|-
! Type
| Public secondary
|-
! Principal
| Joseph Tibaldi
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! Location
| Traverse City, Michigan
|-
! District
| Traverse City Area Public Schools
|-
! Enrollment
| 1947 students ([[2006]])
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! MHSAA Class
| A, Division 1
|-
! Conference
| Big North
|-
! Colors
| Forest Green and Gold
|-
! Nickname
| Titans
|-
! Homepage
| [http://www2.tcaps.net/wsh/ TC West Senior High]
|}


'''Traverse City West Senior High School''' is a [[public education|public]] [[high school]] in [[Traverse City, Michigan]], located at 5376 N. Long Lake Road. The principal is Joseph Tibaldi, who has been the principal since the school's opening in 1997. The school was originally built as a solution to the overcrowding at Traverse City Senior High School, which was Michigan's largest high school prior to the split.{{Fact|date=September 2008}} Traverse City Senior High School is now known as Traverse City Central High School, and the school district border now divided by Division St. Traverse City West is one of three high schools in Traverse City, with nearly 2,000 students each year. It is several times larger than most of the schools in its surrounding area and is the single largest high school outside of the Grand Rapids and Detroit areas in the entire state of Michigan, including the [[Upper Peninsula]]. West is located in the Traverse City Area Public Schools school district, which is part of the larger Traverse Bay Area intermediate school district. West offers classes for students in grades 10–12, although starting in the 2008/09 school year, it will consist of grades 9-12. Additionally, students are given the option to [[dual enrollment|dual enroll]] and attend classes at [[Northwestern Michigan College]]. In addition to the dual enrollment program, a wide variety of honors and [[Advanced Placement Program|AP]] classes are offered.
|action3=AFD
|action3date=01:21, 20 February 2008
|action3link=Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anti-Americanism
|action3result=keep
|action3oldid=191955437


==Arts & Music==
|currentstatus=FGAN
Traverse City West has an active music program, with multiple [[choir]]s, [[band (music)|band]]s, and [[orchestra]]s. In addition to the larger groups, there are also numerous small ensembles, including a [[jazz band]], small vocal groups (Choral Aires, Bella Voce and Westmen), and some student-led [[chamber music|chamber ensembles]]. Every three years the Chorale goes on a tour throughout Europe. The first time the Euro-Chorale went to Europe they won 3rd place in the Llangollen International Musical Eisteddfod.{{Fact|date=September 2008}} Two years later the Chorale went again and was awarded 2nd place.
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The school puts on an annual [[musical theater|musical]] which involves students from all fields. Musicals performed at West since it opened include such classics as Patience, "[[Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat]]", "[[Pirates of Penzance]]", "[[The Music Man]]", "[[Ruddigore]]", "[[Les Miserables]]" (1st time), "[[West Side Story]]", "[[Aida]]", "[[Mikado]]", ''[[Les Miserables]]'' (2nd time), "[[Me and My Girl]]".
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The Theater Arts classes put on several different shows for the public each year; in addition, the [[actor|Thespian]] club puts on a performance and competes at drama festivals.
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This year, there is also talk of a student art show, where visitors can view and purchase student art.


==Sports==
{{cool talk}}<!--


Traverse City West's most intense sports rival is with cross-town [[Traverse City Central High School]]. West competes in [[baseball]], [[basketball]], [[bowling]], [[cheerleading]], [[cross country running|cross country]], [[cross-country skiing]], [[figure skating]], [[dance]], [[downhill skiing]], [[equestrianism|equestrian]], [[football]], [[golf]], [[gymnastics]], [[ice hockey]], Juggling Club, [[lacrosse]], [[chess]], [[Football (soccer)|soccer]], [[softball]], [[swimming]], [[tennis]], [[Rugby football|rugby]], [[track and field]], and [[scholastic wrestling|wrestling]]. West's boys' soccer and girls' downhill skiing teams have each won a state championship.{{Fact|date=September 2008}} Their football team has also been particularly successful, sending multiple athletes to major college football programs and winning more Big North Conference titles than any other school in their conference.{{Fact|date=September 2008}} They are also annual playoff qualifiers and have never had a losing record in their school's history. They have played powerhouse programs such as [[Detroit Catholic Central]], [[Birmingham Brother Rice]], [[Rockford]], [[Grandville]], and [[Midland Dow]]. Their annual game with rival [[Traverse City Central High School]] brings in yearly crowds between 10,000 and 15,000 people.{{Fact|date=September 2008}}
-->{{AutoArchivingNotice
West also competes with their conference opponents [[Petoskey, Michigan|Petoskey]], [[Cadillac, Michigan|Cadillac]], [[Alpena High School (Michigan)|Alpena]], [[Traverse City Central High School]], and [[Gaylord, Michigan|Gaylord]] High Schools, the six largest high schools in [[Northern Michigan]], as a member of the Big North Conference.
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==School Newspaper==
'''Special note:''' To avoid an external link farm, the numerous articles posted on the subject have been moved to [[Talk:Anti-Americanism/External link]]
The school paper is called The Occidentalist, meaning watcher of western culture. There are roughly 20 students on staff each year consisting of an Editor in Chief (EIC), section editors, photographers, and staff writers. The paper is released once monthly, and distributed for free.


==Business and Technology==
== S-Protected ==


Traverse City West has an extensive amount of technology-related classes, including:
Bsharvy showed up as an anon today to add a neutrality tag. Given the trouble the sock has caused I thought it best to s-protect this for a decent period (30 days) to let things peter out. We shouldn't need to worry about anon crap.
<!--Please help by inserting more information on this topic-->
*Web Publishing
*Computer Aided Drafting and Design
*Business


[[Category:Traverse City, Michigan]]
Small note: I think we should stick with Bsharvy when referring to the sock to keep things straight. That was the original account name. [[User:Marskell|Marskell]] ([[User talk:Marskell|talk]]) 21:26, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
[[Category:High schools in Michigan]]
:On Bsharvy's 'Life.temp' alternate identity page he has just commented that "It's ridiculously easy for me to change IP's, and create new accounts, even when blocked." Maybe he hopes to be the new [[Lon Chaney]] who was described as "the man with a thousand faces". [[User:Colin4C|Colin4C]] ([[User talk:Colin4C|talk]]) 08:57, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
[[Category:Educational institutions established in 1997]]

:It's very common for users who don't get their way to create sockpuppets or to keep changing IPs. It just goes to show that he lacks the maturity to edit Wikipedia. <span style="color:red;background:black;border-style: single">¤[[User:IronCrow|IrønCrøw]]¤</span> <small>([[User talk:IronCrow|Speak to Me]])</small> 20:22, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

== Translations ==

His vandalism aside, Life Temp. (aka Bsharvy) did make one good point. As this is the English wikipedia, we have a strong Western bias and while we can label some of the English speaking countries anti-American, due to news and other articles. Life Temp.'s point was that we should not label other countries (ie, Columbia/Japan/etc) Anti-American as we do not know if they themselves see their country as being or having Anti-Americanism.

My point being, there are 15 other languages that this article is written in. Either they, or the sources they use could benefit this article by providing more neutral information about their country's view on Anti-Amerticanism. [[User:Iciac|Iciac]] ([[User talk:Iciac|talk]]) 11:33, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
:Are you Bsharvy? I am not accusing, just asking. Just so we have everything on record. [[User:Colin4C|Colin4C]] ([[User talk:Colin4C|talk]]) 15:52, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

::To be honest, not everyone who edits this page are American or know English as their first language, and I can assure you that a large amount of English-speaking countries do not like the United States any more than another country. I see no bias. By the way, Colin, I quoated you on my apge, hope you don't mind (it was awhile ago). <span style="color:red;background:black;border-style: single">¤[[User:IronCrow|IrønCrøw]]¤</span> <small>([[User talk:IronCrow|Speak to Me]])</small> 20:27, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
:::No, I'm not Bsharvy, though I did occasionally think he was hard done by (I've been watching the talk page for a few months). And yes, I have no doubt that many English speaking or no countries dislike America. However, I believe that citations from that a (eg)French newspaper talking about Anti-Americanism in France, would be more neutral than an American/ Australian/etc newspaper talking about growing AA in France. It could also better describe how the country describes their own belief in Anti-Americanism, which I think was one of Bsharvy's major points (That wikipedia should not label a country Anti-American if they themselves do not see themselves as that). [[User:Iciac|Iciac]] ([[User talk:Iciac|talk]]) 23:02, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
:Your choice of word 'labelling' is interesting. Are you assuming that to call someone anti-American is derogatory? Depending on the people using it it could equally be a term of approbation and the contrary sentiment 'pro-Americanism' be seen as derogatory. E.g. in Britain [[Tony Blair]] got a lot of flak for seeming to be too pro-American. I think we should treat 'anti-Americanism' as a descriptive term for acts and words which are anti (literally 'against') the Americans, eg declaring war on America (Hitler, Osama), burning the American flag, shouting out "Death to America!" in a loud voice etc etc. These acts and words are primae facie 'anti-American'. The issue, often raised, of whether they are 'justified' are 'unjustified' is not one wikipedia editors are able to cope with, I feel, as different people have different opinions on what is 'justified' and 'unjustified'. Wikipedia editors are not the arbiters of what is right and and what is wrong IMHO. [[User:Colin4C|Colin4C]] ([[User talk:Colin4C|talk]]) 09:51, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
::IronCrow - glad you have quoted my wise words on your User Page. If only Bsharvy had listened to them he might not be in the Sin Bin now...(that's the village of Sin Bin on the outskirts of Seoul - a good place to hide from Agent Yellow attacks...so I'm told...). [[User:Colin4C|Colin4C]] ([[User talk:Colin4C|talk]]) 17:53, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

:::Calling something "anti-American" is often derogatory, as this article has at various times asserted. This article is in the "Discrimination" category, so the implication is clear. That doesn't mean it's an absolute, but there is a strong implication. Defining it as "against" American is vague. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/122.153.53.2|122.153.53.2]] ([[User talk:122.153.53.2|talk]]) 02:20, 24 June 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::::The Greek word 'Anti' literally means 'Against'. Whether it is derogatory or not depends on how you value what it is appended to. For instance would you class [[Anti-Nazi|Anti-Nazism]] and [[Anti-slavery]] as forms of discrimination? [[User:Colin4C|Colin4C]] ([[User talk:Colin4C|talk]]) 09:06, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

::::Whether it's derogatory depends on its common useage. If something's "anti-American" the suggestion is that it's not based in reason. The article itself says so, and it is in Wikipedia's "discrimination" category. It's not an absolute, but it's a common implication. Most of the examples of anti-Americanism in this article don't include any rational discourse. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/122.153.53.2|122.153.53.2]] ([[User talk:122.153.53.2|talk]]) 03:59, 25 June 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::::Also, when such views as Slavery and Nazism were common place, Anti-Slavery and Anti-Nazism would have been considered derogatory, possibly discriminatory. Weren't anti-Nazis placed in concentration camps? The point is that generally, in Western media the US is seen in a postive fashion. Therefore something "anti-American" is seen in a derogative fashion. However, in countries or minorities that believe that anti-Americanism is a good thing (opposite to pro-american as you mentioned earlier) it is seen in a positive light. The problem is that most of the sources used are from Western observers, and thus the anti-Americanism is seen negatively. To answer you're early question: whether I believe anti-American is used only derogatorily - no, I personally describe myself as Anti-American in response to certain elements such as the war in Iraq, recent matters in Iran, and the unilateral views of the US. Though of course that's irrelevant. [[User:Iciac|Iciac]] ([[User talk:Iciac|talk]]) 06:00, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
:Just to add that [[Anti-slavery]] was often combined with Anti-Americanism. So Dickens: "Thus the stars wink upon the bloody stripes; and Liberty pulls down her cap upon her eyes, and owns oppression in its vilest aspect for her sister". Dickens was from the 'West' by the way. Europeans (such as Dickens) do not always support the United States, therefore you shouldn't confuse 'The West' with America. And if you are asserting that it is only Americans who see Dicken's remarks as anti-American you are wrong. The source I got them from was written by an Englishman. If you look closely you will see that the text of the article IS sourced to a variety of non-American voices: Mexican, Korean, French etc. I don't indeed see your point, unless your talk is just a softening-up operation for a new wave of mass deletions a-la-Bsharvy. [[User:Colin4C|Colin4C]] ([[User talk:Colin4C|talk]]) 08:20, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
::Ouch, sorry if I sounded a little bigotted. And no, this is not some softening up operation for Bsharvy. I deeply respect the work that has gone into this article. I also believe that some of the work done by Bsharvy has left a stronger article in its place, with the weakest and most predjudiced material removed. However, the two of you need to reach agreements more often, as I've seen in the last few months that ultimatums are generally the case. Part of this is due to Bsharvy rigidly sticking to the rules; and part of it is your refusal to discuss some of his points. Many times I've seen Bsharvy list his points in the talk, and you ignore them and make a comeback with a quote from literature (of which you have plenty apparently =P). The intention of the "translations" was to address one of Bsharvy's arguements that "wikipedia should not label people in a way that they describe themselves". My idea was that there are other languaged versions of this article with articles from that countries standpoint; and that he could use these to fix any labelling or POV problems. It was just a suggestion. No offences intended. Cheers [[User:Iciac|Iciac]] ([[User talk:Iciac|talk]]) 08:44, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Bsharvy did not stick to the wikipedia rules, he flouted them. He operated a series of sock puppets, expressly contrary to the wikipedia rules. Some of these sock-puppets we suspected beforehand but there were others of which we were completely unaware of until they were revealed a couple of weeks ago such as [[User:Chudov]] and [[User:Nosuperpower]]. Bsharvy has boasted how easy it is for him to create sock-puppets and I strongly suspect that he will reappear here in one guise or another. Only two days ago Bsharvy said this on his Life.temp sock page: "In any case, why bother begging inscrutable admins for unblocks when I can just create new accounts?". [[User:Colin4C|Colin4C]] ([[User talk:Colin4C|talk]]) 08:56, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
::::I read that comment too, I also read a few comments by other users giving evidence that the Rachel63 account (his first sock?) may not have been his sock. In any case, if he's just going to reappear anyway, why not work with him instead of against him. Address his arguments directly and see if you can reach consensus with him. The other alternative is to just continue what you have been for the last 3 months and continue the Life.Temp saga where both of you are at loggerheads with one-another and no actual improvement is made. Again, no offence intended. Cheers [[User:Iciac|Iciac]] ([[User talk:Iciac|talk]]) 09:19, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
:Bsharvy was trying to destroy the article not improve it. He wanted it deleted: [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anti-Americanism]]. And due to his false testimony another editor here, Igor, was blocked and banned from the wikipedia and I was subjected to threats of being banned for raising the question as to his identity. And since you ask, I do take offence at what you say. Bsharvy was a destructive pest and had nothing of value to say about this article. If he turns up again I will report him to the admins. [[User:Colin4C|Colin4C]] ([[User talk:Colin4C|talk]]) 10:04, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

== North American attitudes ==

Why does this section not exist? It looks like almost every area is covered except for this one. This would almost seem like the primary editors of this article assumed there was no anti-american sentiment within Canada/America (Mexico seems covered under Latin America). And trust me, in Canada making fun of Americans is something of a sport amongst us. And I'm sure there's quite a few self-hating Americans (As there are self-haters everywhere), so why no NA article?
[[Special:Contributions/70.70.97.117|70.70.97.117]] ([[User talk:70.70.97.117|talk]]) 18:03, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
:Feel free to add such material...[[User:Colin4C|Colin4C]] ([[User talk:Colin4C|talk]]) 18:58, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
:Same with the Australians sadly. There used to be a section, but it was removed due to percieved biases and sourcing. Be free to add anything however, the article really need some information on those areas. [[User:Iciac|Iciac]] ([[User talk:Iciac|talk]]) 06:57, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
I would, but as you can guess from the fact I lack a username, I'm not very good at this. I'd rather someone read my suggestions and make a decent addition to the article then have the section deleted because I didn't do it properly. (Much like the ill-fated Australia section).
Of course I realise that every country can't have it's own section. I mean, it's the US we're talking about here. Not exactly a much beloved country right now, or even liked. However, as Canada ''is'' the US's closest ally in many respects I think we're worth mentioning, eh? And also of course the Anti-US Americans themselves.[[Special:Contributions/70.70.97.117|70.70.97.117]] ([[User talk:70.70.97.117|talk]]) 10:45, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
:That's a great idea - if you wanted to, you could use the discussion page to write it. That way, no-one will delete it, and we'll be able to give you feedback as you write it. [[User:Iciac|Iciac]] ([[User talk:Iciac|talk]]) 03:41, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
:As an American, I think this is a great idea. Editing an article isn't much harder than what you've already done to write your comments here. Just cruise around and hit the edit page to see how certain effects are created. For instance, if you write <nowiki>[[Canada]]</nowiki> it will create a "[[Wikilink#Wikilinks|Wikilink]]" that looks like this [[Canada]]. It's just that easy, and learning how to add sources is as easy as looking at any featured article and seeing how it's done there. Explore and [[Wikipedia:Be_bold|be bold]]! [[Special:Contributions/68.5.138.151|68.5.138.151]] ([[User talk:68.5.138.151|talk]]) 02:22, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it needs to be clarified. It article should try to explain why people feel the anti Americanism. this is, what people are against to. people aren't anti-american just because "yes". Everyone has it's own reasons. the main reasons should figure in the article. Like the war against Iraq, echelon, cia flights, nuclear weapons, Vietnam war, racism etc etc etc. it should be a list or something like that. or a section that explains the source of anti-Americanism.
Although in my opinion it's a very good article I think it could be improved a lot. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:- - -|- - -]] ([[User talk:- - -|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/- - -|contribs]]) 14:21, 22 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

- - -: There's a fine line between stating that someone is anti-American, and giving valid reasons why. It's been tried before and systematically deleted/cockblocked because Wikipedia is primarily an American website. Not that all Americans immediately resort to covering their ears and humming loudly when you critique them, but there are enough. </br>
And as for making the section myself, see above reasons. The US is one of the most disliked nations in the world atm, but I doubt this aticle will ever be allowed to show it. [[Special:Contributions/70.70.97.117|70.70.97.117]] ([[User talk:70.70.97.117|talk]]) 01:24, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

== ga nomination ==

anyone think this is up for a Good article nomination? <small>- -<nowiki>[</nowiki>[[User:LukeTheSpook|The Spooky One]]<nowiki>]</nowiki></small> | <sup><nowiki>[</nowiki>[[User talk:LukeTheSpook|t]] [[Special:Contributions/LukeTheSpook|c]] [[Wikipedia:Editor review/LukeTheSpook|r]]<nowiki>]</nowiki></sup> 08:57, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

:No way. This article is really biased culturally and not at all neutral. You have a real problenm when Americans rape a child and people object and you call that anti-american. [[User:Rachel63|Rachel63]] ([[User talk:Rachel63|talk]]) 08:55, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

::I agree that this article is a long ways from being a GA. However, I disagree with your characterization above. In [[Anti-Americanism#East_Asia]], the article speaks of "high-profile crimes committed by U.S. servicemembers", citing the child-rape in Okinawa as one example. The article says that such "high-profile crimes committed by U.S. servicemembers" have aggravated anti-Americanism&mdash;implying (I infer) the point that it is a bit excessive to impute responsibility for a criminal action by one individual (even a member of the U.S. military) to the U.S. government and to every individual who holds U.S. nationality. The article does not, as you say above, claim that "... when Americans rape a child and people object and you call that anti-american". -- [[User:Wtmitchell|Boracay Bill]] ([[User talk:Wtmitchell|talk]]) 11:56, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

:::Huh? If we're not calling it anti-American, why is it in this article? [[User:Rachel63|Rachel63]] ([[User talk:Rachel63|talk]]) 02:33, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
::::The reasoning is that the Okinawa incident sparked a huge amount of anti-Americanism in Japan. Since the occupation (which has continued on some level since the end of WW2) of [[United States forces Japan#controversy|Japan by the USA]], the Japanese have objected to this. The fact that initially in the investigation of the incident, the offender had extraterritorial defence increased this tension. I quote from the [[1995 Okinawan rape incident]] article: "The outrage over the attack caused the largest anti-American demonstrations in Okinawa since the treaty was signed in 1960". In short, the fact that a US personal (whom are on Japanese soil against Japanese wishes) committed such a heinous crime was the issue, not merely the fact that the incident of a child being raped. The offence itself was not anti-Americanism, but the protests/reaction that followed was. If my argument makes sense, and you have no further issues with the neutrality of the article - could you please remove the POV banner yourself? Of course, if you have any further reasons; leave the banner there and state them here. Cheers [[User:Iciac|Iciac]] ([[User talk:Iciac|talk]]) 03:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
:'Anti-Americanism' is a value neutral term. If the Americans do something wrong, e.g. swipe half of Mexico, then IMHO the Mexicans are justified in being Anti-American. 'Anti' means 'against' it does not mean 'unjustifiably against'. For instance calling somebody an 'Anti-Fascist' is generally an approbation, unless you are Heinrich Himmler...[[User:Colin4C|Colin4C]] ([[User talk:Colin4C|talk]]) 09:13, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

The article says: "Whether sentiment hostile to the United States reflects reasoned evaluation of specific policies and administrations, rather than a prejudiced belief system, is a further complication." It is NOT value-neutral if it "reflects" a "prejudiced beliefe system." I think its obvious that sometimes this article is saying people have a prejudice against Americans, and I think it is really offensive to suggest protesting after a child GANG RAPE is because of prejudcie. [[User:Rachel63|Rachel63]] ([[User talk:Rachel63|talk]]) 10:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
:I reworded it to "Whether sentiment hostile to the United States reflects reasoned evaluation of specific policies and administrations, '''or merely''' a prejudiced belief system, is a further complication." And while in parts of the article it suggests that anti-Americanism is a prejudice, in many instances anti-Americanism is merely a prejudice - the same as anti-Islam/Asia/femanist etc; however there are just as many (if not more) reasoned anti-Americans. In the case of the Okinawan rape, the anti-American protests were justified, and in my opinion presented as such in the article. Any other suggestions? [[User:Iciac|Iciac]] ([[User talk:Iciac|talk]]) 10:50, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
::According to this article the protest was anti-American: http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9510/okinawa_protest/index.html. Are we going to deny that thousands of people protested against the Americans? The source says there was such a protest. The wikipedia does not allow original research denying what a source says. The reality is that not everybody in the world loves the Americans. The wikipedia should reflect this reality, no matter how unpalatable it is for Americans to hear. [[User:Colin4C|Colin4C]] ([[User talk:Colin4C|talk]]) 23:20, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
:::Also the protest was not just because of the rape. According to the article "the protest was strengthened by years of resentment over the U.S. military presence on the tropical island." [[User:Colin4C|Colin4C]] ([[User talk:Colin4C|talk]]) 00:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
::::Just out of curiousity - was that reply directed towards me, or towards Rachel63? [[User:Iciac|Iciac]] ([[User talk:Iciac|talk]]) 06:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

This whole discussion has nothing to do with the banner, in fact it just proves the point about the banner, because we are disputing whether the article is neutral. I don't know what CNN has to do with anything. Does Wikipedia say that if CNN says it, it must be a fact? Is that a policy??? Why don't you go find out what the JAPANESE news said about it. Don't you think it is a little BIASED to be using AMERICANS as an authority and what is anti-American????? Calling something anti-American is an OPINION. [[User:Rachel63|Rachel63]] ([[User talk:Rachel63|talk]]) 09:17, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
:We are not allowed to do original research on the wikipedia but use sources. The sources say that the demonstration was anti-American. By the way do you think that news-broadcasts by CNN showing people demonstrating against the Americans at Okinawa are faked? If so, please provide sources which prove that CNN fakes its news-reports. When CNN reported the moon-landing was that just an opinion? Maybe CNN faked that as well? [[User:Colin4C|Colin4C]] ([[User talk:Colin4C|talk]]) 09:44, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Youre disputing whether the article is neutral as part of your reason for taking off a banner that says people dispute whether the article is neutral. [[User:Rachel63|Rachel63]] ([[User talk:Rachel63|talk]]) 10:18, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
:That's because we're trying to address any concerns you have about the neutrality. The banner is there to promote editors to improve the article by addressing any such concerns. If you don't state your concerns, then we must look at the article in question to see if we can find anything wrong with it. My point being, do you have any specific reasons for doubting the neutrality of the article? If not, we will remove the banner as you wouldn't seem to dispute it. P.S. I have already addressed the "Mostly US sources" in the "Translations" part of the talk page. For the record, there are many non-US sources in the article, though you are free to add more from other countries. [[User:Iciac|Iciac]] ([[User talk:Iciac|talk]]) 12:11, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

::You're not trying to "address any concerns you have about the neutrality", you're trying to prove you're right and I'm wrong. I already told you why I think the section isn't neutral, you just told me I'm wrong. Whatever. Really the whole thing is POV because "anti-American" is an opinion. [[User:Rachel63|Rachel63]] ([[User talk:Rachel63|talk]]) 09:18, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
:::That is just your individual anti-concensus original research opinion. Prove it. [[User:Colin4C|Colin4C]] ([[User talk:Colin4C|talk]]) 09:37, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
:::Sorry, but where did I ever state that I was right, and you were wrong? It may seem that way - but that's the way a discussion works, one side puts forward an argument (eg, your POV banner) and the other side attempts to refute it. This continues until an agreement can be reached (ie, consensus). I quote from [[wp:NPOVD]]: "Everyone can agree that marking an article as having an NPOV dispute is a ''temporary'' measure, and should be followed up by actual contributions to the article in order to put it in such a state that people agree that it is neutral." That is why we are asking for specific things to fix. For the POV thing - the article is describing a Point of View - one which has been discusssed by many third parties, historically and recently. NPOV stands for Neutral Point of View - not No Point of View. Yes, by saying "This is anti-Americanism" is just the opinion of the one who says it. However, this article merely records these opinions, and the how the opinions change by time/region etc. May I just say this - other than the first time it was put up, I have not removed the POV banner (however, I can't speak for Colin...). This is because I am willing to discuss whether the article is indeed neutral or not. Please then, could you also try and discuss it with us? [[User:Iciac|Iciac]] ([[User talk:Iciac|talk]]) 12:03, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
:I have a strange sense of deja-vu...I am removing the tag because retaining seems to indicate that there is a concensus that there is something wrong with this article. I.e. I believe it is the springboard for a tag-farm followed by mass deletions, followed by dragging long-standing editors through every complaints preocedure of the wikipedia in an attempt to intimidate them and drive them away...as in the glory days of Bsharvy. See [[User talk:Bsharvy]] for Rachel and Bsharvy gloating over how they drove editor Equazion away from this page: "At least Equazion isn't there any more!". Their aim, as before, is to destroy this article. No doubt, as before, the admins will give them every assistance and block and bar anybody who tries to defend the integrity of this article, like they did with Igor whose sole crime was to point out the obvious fact that Bsharvy had several sock-puppets and was trying to wreck this article. See: [[Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Bsharvy]]. [[User:Colin4C|Colin4C]] ([[User talk:Colin4C|talk]]) 16:30, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

::Iciac, you said you were trying to address my concerns, and now you admit you are attempting to "refute it." Well doesn't attempting to refute me mean you are saying your right and I'm wrong? A discussion doesn't HAVE to work that way you know, you can COMPROMISE and LEARN from EACH OTHER. It doesn't just work by REFUTING. I told you what I think we should do to make the article more neutral: don't call Japanese people anti-American just because they protest something Americans do. And you are wrong that the article "merely records these opinions" about things being anti-American. The article calls things anti-American. The very fist sentence of the Asia section is "In Japan and South Korea, much recent anti-Americanism has focused on the presence and behavior of American military personnel..." That's not a quote from a sourse, that's Wikipedia giving its opinion about Japanese and Korean politics.
::And Colin, you are unfair. The banner doesn't say "there is a consensus that there is something wrong with this article" it says there is a DISPUTE. And I didn't even vote to delete the article, and said we should NOT delete the article, so you are being dishonest. [[User:Rachel63|Rachel63]] ([[User talk:Rachel63|talk]]) 03:10, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
::I appologise, it was a bad choice of words on my part. I am actually trying to address your concerns - such as when you brought up "Whether sentiment hostile to the United States reflects reasoned evaluation of specific policies and administrations, rather than a prejudiced belief system, is a further complication." I reworded that sentence, as I agreed that it was biased. If I have time I will try and reword the Asia section later. Do you have any other concerns that, if addressed, would make the article neutral in your opinion? Colin - would it hurt to let the tag stay for a couple of days - some good may come of it. If it ends up causing a mass deletion ala. Bsharvy, you can always just revert it back to article as it stands now. Cheers [[User:Iciac|Iciac]] ([[User talk:Iciac|talk]]) 06:28, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
:::I just checked the East Asia section - it doesn't actually call the Japanese people anti-American for protesting, rather that one reported cause of Anti-Americanism in Japan is the anger over US presence/Okinawan rape. I understand that this is only how I read it, and you may have a different opinion on it. [[User:Iciac|Iciac]] ([[User talk:Iciac|talk]]) <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment was added at 06:45, 15 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

::::Yes it does call them anti-American. I already quoted you the very first sentence. The whole article calls things anti-American even though that is an opinion. Also, it was Saber who was mass deleting, bsharvy was just trying to add warning banners. [[User:Rachel63|Rachel63]] ([[User talk:Rachel63|talk]]) 10:48, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
:::::Ok, I didn't know Saber was the mass-deletor (I've mainly been watching the talk pages). The first sentence "In Japan and South Korea, much recent anti-Americanism has focused on the presence and behavior of American military personnel..." refers not to the people, but the actual anti-Americanism. It merely states that such sentiment exists, and generalises it for a main reason - US military. This has been sourced I think, though not directly to the sentence. In my opinion the opinions about the subject (so long as the are notable) deserve mention; wherepon neutrality is resulted from a number of different notable opinions. [[User:Iciac|Iciac]] ([[User talk:Iciac|talk]]) 11:53, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
:Bsharvy deleted stuff on average once every two days. He also routinely blind reverted every new edit, no matter whether it was good bad or indifferent. He made no positive contribution to this article at all and he and his variously named sock-puppets, (Bshanvy, Life.temp etc etc) engaged in an edit war which lasted three months at least. He mocked Igor on his talk page after Igor had been blocked and barred for having the temerity to expose him as a sock-puppet. Check the history. Saber deleted some quotes (which were subsequently restored). [[User:Colin4C|Colin4C]] ([[User talk:Colin4C|talk]]) 20:30, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

:::Iciac, I don't know what you mean by "actual anti-Americanism". "Anti-Americanism" is an opinion. And it obviously says the protests the were anti-American, because after saying it was aggravated it gives the protests as the main example.
:::colin4C, I don't know everything that happened when I was blocked, but I know you are not fair. You have already said dishonest things to me here, and you are edit warring over the banner without giving reasons. I am at least giving reasons in my conversation with Iciac. And if bsharvy/life.temp was edit warring for three months, why wasn't he ever blocked for edit warring? You are also being dishonest about getting someone blocked. bsharvy is not an admin and didn't have anyone blocked. You are basically saying that the admins who blocked him were stupid and just obeyed bsharvy. Go tell that to the admins who did the blocking if you dare. Instead you are just complaining about it here where it does nothing but disrupt our discussion of this article. [[User:Rachel63|Rachel63]] ([[User talk:Rachel63|talk]]) 03:48, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
:Yes, the admins did indeed prove themselves to be dummies in refusing to employ a check-user on Bsharvy's account until after they had blocked and barred the editor who had complained against him. They all thought the devious Bsharvy was being harassed by Igor and blocked him instead of an editor who was running at least six sock-puppets simultaneously. After Igor was blocked, Bsharvy went to his page and had a derisive laugh at him. I guess Bsharvy thought that he was untouchable at that point and could game the system for ever with the full approval of the admins. [[User:Colin4C|Colin4C]] ([[User talk:Colin4C|talk]]) 08:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
::::Ok, by opinion - you mean the opinion of someone using the term. I misunderstood before. What I meant by "actual anti-Americanism" was anti-American sentiment. So to re-phrase what I wrote before... The first sentence refers not to the people, but the sentiment against Americans. Anti-American sentiment is a self-referred term, instead of the critisising third party "Anti-American". I rewrote the first sentence to reflect this. [[User:Iciac|Iciac]] ([[User talk:Iciac|talk]]) 07:16, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
:So if someone declares war on the USA, or kidnaps an American and kills him is that just an opinion? If someone shouts "Death to the USA" is it just an opinion that this is anti-American? If someone says that the world is round, or that water is wet, is that just an opinion?[[User:Colin4C|Colin4C]] ([[User talk:Colin4C|talk]]) 08:13, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
::By opinion, I believe Racheal meant the observers opinion. If someone declares war on the USA, I believe it to be anti-American - THAT is my opinion; the same applies with the "Death to USA". Without proof of the offender's intent for it to be anti-American however, it could only be said that the event was believed (by specific/majority) to be anti-American. I agree that going that far is over the top, and don't really want to go into a long debate about what is/isn't an opinion. (off topic) Technically, saying that "water is wet" IS an opinion, as "wet" is a feeling - just thought I'd point that out =D. [[User:Iciac|Iciac]] ([[User talk:Iciac|talk]]) 10:06, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
:::The statement that "Anti-Americanism is an opinion" is itself also just an opinion. Rachel has not produced any references to back up her POV personal opinion that "Anti-Americanism is just an opinion". She has just stated her personal POV opinion and expected us to believe it. [[User:Colin4C|Colin4C]] ([[User talk:Colin4C|talk]]) 13:09, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
::::I don't think she meant "Anti-Americanism is an opinion". Instead I think she meant that calling something anti-American was the opinion of the person saying it. [[User:Iciac|Iciac]] ([[User talk:Iciac|talk]]) 01:29, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

'''WHAT THE BANNER SAYS''': "Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved."
What the link "dispute is resolved" says: Often, authors can view "their" articles as being NPOV, while others disagree. '''That an article is in an "NPOV dispute" does not necessarily mean it is biased, only that someone feels that it is.'''...It is important to remember that the NPOV dispute tag does not mean that an article actually violates NPOV. It simply means that there is an ongoing dispute about whether the article complies with a neutral point of view or not. In any NPOV dispute, there will be some people who think the article complies with NPOV, and some people who disagree. In general, '''you should not remove the NPOV dispute tag merely because you personally feel the article complies with NPOV.''' Rather, the tag should be removed only when there is a consensus among the editors that the NPOV disputes have indeed been resolved....Sometimes people have edit wars over the NPOV dispute tag, or have an extended debate about whether there is a NPOV dispute or not. '''In general, if you find yourself having an ongoing dispute about whether a dispute exists, there's a good chance one does, and you should therefore leave the NPOV tag up''' until there is a consensus that it should be removed" [[User:Rachel63|Rachel63]] ([[User talk:Rachel63|talk]]) 13:06, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
:In effect you are saying that you have an absolute veto on the removal of the tag as you could string out your POV pushing for ever. Then like Bsharvy you will bit by bit create a tag farm and then use that as an excuse for mass deletions. You seem to forget that we have been through this whole spurious POV tag-farm gaming process several times before in the past year courtesy of Bsharvy and his several sockpuppets and meatpuppets. The efforts to disrupt this article failed then and they will fail again. You haven't made one single solitary constructive edit in the whole wikipedia you have just made a single purpose attack on a wikipedia page you don't like and wish to destroy. [[User:Colin4C|Colin4C]] ([[User talk:Colin4C|talk]]) 15:47, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

===Reblocked===
I have reblocked Rachel as a (very obvious) sockpuppet of [[User:Bsharvy]], notifying AN and the blocking admin. When this person reappears, someone should contact me as Colin usually does. [[User:Marskell|Marskell]] ([[User talk:Marskell|talk]]) 16:40, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

== The lead ==

I would just like to say that the lead is very well-written, in my opinion. [[Special:Contributions/68.5.138.151|68.5.138.151]] ([[User talk:68.5.138.151|talk]]) 02:14, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
:Thank you. [[User:Marskell|Marskell]] ([[User talk:Marskell|talk]]) 16:41, 18 August 2008 (UTC)


==NPOV title = Criticism of the United States?==

Is this the same as [[Criticism of the United States]]? Would this not be a more NPOV title? The use of the term [[Anti-Americanism]] seems to be very close to [[You're_either_with_us,_or_against_us]] and thus POV.--[[User:Sonjaaa|Sonjaaa]] ([[User talk:Sonjaaa|talk]]) 18:03, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Revision as of 02:38, 12 October 2008

West Senior High
Logo
Type Public secondary
Principal Joseph Tibaldi
Location Traverse City, Michigan
District Traverse City Area Public Schools
Enrollment 1947 students (2006)
MHSAA Class A, Division 1
Conference Big North
Colors Forest Green and Gold
Nickname Titans
Homepage TC West Senior High

Traverse City West Senior High School is a public high school in Traverse City, Michigan, located at 5376 N. Long Lake Road. The principal is Joseph Tibaldi, who has been the principal since the school's opening in 1997. The school was originally built as a solution to the overcrowding at Traverse City Senior High School, which was Michigan's largest high school prior to the split.[citation needed] Traverse City Senior High School is now known as Traverse City Central High School, and the school district border now divided by Division St. Traverse City West is one of three high schools in Traverse City, with nearly 2,000 students each year. It is several times larger than most of the schools in its surrounding area and is the single largest high school outside of the Grand Rapids and Detroit areas in the entire state of Michigan, including the Upper Peninsula. West is located in the Traverse City Area Public Schools school district, which is part of the larger Traverse Bay Area intermediate school district. West offers classes for students in grades 10–12, although starting in the 2008/09 school year, it will consist of grades 9-12. Additionally, students are given the option to dual enroll and attend classes at Northwestern Michigan College. In addition to the dual enrollment program, a wide variety of honors and AP classes are offered.

Arts & Music

Traverse City West has an active music program, with multiple choirs, bands, and orchestras. In addition to the larger groups, there are also numerous small ensembles, including a jazz band, small vocal groups (Choral Aires, Bella Voce and Westmen), and some student-led chamber ensembles. Every three years the Chorale goes on a tour throughout Europe. The first time the Euro-Chorale went to Europe they won 3rd place in the Llangollen International Musical Eisteddfod.[citation needed] Two years later the Chorale went again and was awarded 2nd place.

The school puts on an annual musical which involves students from all fields. Musicals performed at West since it opened include such classics as Patience, "Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat", "Pirates of Penzance", "The Music Man", "Ruddigore", "Les Miserables" (1st time), "West Side Story", "Aida", "Mikado", Les Miserables (2nd time), "Me and My Girl".

The Theater Arts classes put on several different shows for the public each year; in addition, the Thespian club puts on a performance and competes at drama festivals. 

This year, there is also talk of a student art show, where visitors can view and purchase student art.

Sports

Traverse City West's most intense sports rival is with cross-town Traverse City Central High School. West competes in baseball, basketball, bowling, cheerleading, cross country, cross-country skiing, figure skating, dance, downhill skiing, equestrian, football, golf, gymnastics, ice hockey, Juggling Club, lacrosse, chess, soccer, softball, swimming, tennis, rugby, track and field, and wrestling. West's boys' soccer and girls' downhill skiing teams have each won a state championship.[citation needed] Their football team has also been particularly successful, sending multiple athletes to major college football programs and winning more Big North Conference titles than any other school in their conference.[citation needed] They are also annual playoff qualifiers and have never had a losing record in their school's history. They have played powerhouse programs such as Detroit Catholic Central, Birmingham Brother Rice, Rockford, Grandville, and Midland Dow. Their annual game with rival Traverse City Central High School brings in yearly crowds between 10,000 and 15,000 people.[citation needed] West also competes with their conference opponents Petoskey, Cadillac, Alpena, Traverse City Central High School, and Gaylord High Schools, the six largest high schools in Northern Michigan, as a member of the Big North Conference.

School Newspaper

The school paper is called The Occidentalist, meaning watcher of western culture. There are roughly 20 students on staff each year consisting of an Editor in Chief (EIC), section editors, photographers, and staff writers. The paper is released once monthly, and distributed for free.

Business and Technology

Traverse City West has an extensive amount of technology-related classes, including:

  • Web Publishing
  • Computer Aided Drafting and Design
  • Business
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