Talk:Russo-Georgian War

Rename

Since there seems to be little action on the talk page for a new title and considerable time has passed I think now's an appropriate time to reach conclusions on the title. Not only is there clear opposition to the current title shown by those explicitly opposing it and implicitly opposing it by supporting a rename there is also a decreasing amount of usage of the term South Ossetia War, South Ossetian conflict, and variations of that name to describe the conflict. At the same time the title continues to reflect an inappropriate description of the war since the scope was far broader than South Ossetia. While I supported some form of Russia-Georgia it seems that too is going down in usage. The main usage is "War in Georgia" and it clearly beats out any other usage not only in frequency, but also nature and prominence of usage. So my suggestion is this article now be renamed to "War in Georga (2008)" as this seems to be the title which not only is most widely used, but also the one which avoids any serious POV objections and adequately reflects the broad scope of the conflict.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 01:00, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

There's also been clear opposition to renaming. Majority of other wikis keep calling it "South Ossetia War" without any problems. Usage of "War in Georgia" goes up due to usual media euphemising and love for catch phrases: "War in Iraq", "War on Terror", "War on Drugs". "South Ossetia War" is still how it's being referred to in more thoughtful sources. Also, many people would consider renaming it a POV. We might create a redirect though. Billyblind (talk) 06:03, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

This war isn’t a first war which has many names. For example, there is “Terminology” section in the Vietnam War article which contains brief etymology of the Vietnam War. I think that it’s possible to make something like it in this article, and it will be more useful than the rename of the article itself. (Pubkjre (talk) 08:12, 22 September 2008 (UTC))

The articles name should reflect how the war is commonly refered to in the media. South Ossetia war is neither the most common name in the media, nor an accurate description of the combatants/area of hostilities. Therefore I support moving to War in Georgia (2008). Russian-Georgian war or Georgian-Russian war would be ok to me as well. --Xeeron (talk) 10:07, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

The articles name should reflect how the war is commonly refered to in the media. But we shouldn't forget that wikipedia titles are not without influence on medias. To avoid such unwelcomed feedback we should think about going back to a more neutral title as Kaukasus Conflict 2008 and wait til generally medias have reached conclusions on title. Other wikipedias use SO War still as temporary solution. Elysander (talk) 10:37, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

If the wiki has an influence on the media (not sure about that one myself), that is one more reason not to have a misleading title. Many other wikis, especially the smaller ones are likely to copy and translate the biggest wiki out there, namely this one. We should rather look at mainstream media than other wikis. --Xeeron (talk) 11:50, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

OMG. Aren't we done yet? For the last time: there were no consensus on that matter. The title stays as it is. 212.192.164.14 (talk) 14:07, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

There doesn't have to be a majority vote for a title when the title is already determined by media. Wikipedia is not a democracy. It's not up to us to decide what the title of this war is, it's what used the most in mainstream media. I've checked, and ["Russia-Georgia+war"&btnG=Zoeken Russia-Georgia war] gets 869.000 results on google. ["war+in+georgia"&btnG=Zoeken war in georgia] gets 750.000 results in google. ["south+ossetia+war"&btnG=Zoeken South Ossetia war] only has 125.000 results, and often refers to the first war. Those trying to uphold "south ossetia" war are mostly trying to do this because it fits their personal POV better. Russia-Georgia war is what this article should be named, and the alternative titles can be listed in the introduction. Grey Fox (talk) 23:04, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

A general Google search will not be fully informative as to what the name should be. Searching Google news brings very different results. Google News overtime removes older results so the newest results are the ones mentioned. In that sense Russia-Georgia War is decreasing in usage, South Ossetia War is at the point of falling of the market completely, and reference to War in Georgia is increasing. Russia-Georgia War can be mentioned as an alternative name in the intro, but the current title is clearly inappropriate. Most opposing a rename are single-purpose accounts or give horrible arguments for keeping it. I don't think it's even controversial to suggest a rename. I don't know why people are opposing one. It doesn't make any sense at all.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 00:54, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

"Those trying to uphold "south ossetia" war are mostly trying to do this because it fits their personal POV better." Yeah, and I can say, that those trying to change it to something like "Russia-Georgia war" are mostly trying to do this because it fits their personal POV better, so what? You seem to be failing to comprehend, that behind the words "no consensus" lie numerous discussions, all of which had far more convincing arguments, than the ones you've managed to bring up here with "google hits" being lamest of them. Oh, no, the lamest one is dismissal of counter-arguments, reasoned by accusing people of POV-pushing. Frankly, are you refusing to get the point? Because, if you read this article, you'll understand, how, for example, your hardly unintentional misinterpretation of consensus with "majority vote" and following citation of WP:NOTDEMOCRACY rule looks like. I repeat once again for you, Grey Fox: i'm talking about consensus, not "majority vote", please, don't use these words interchangeably to prove your point, again. These unceasing claims of "Google Count IS The Decisive Argument", while it's certainly not, smell of proof by assertion and lack of real argumentation. And this persistent "we should rename" theme, when no "people changed their minds because new things came up"(i'm loosely citing WP:CONSENSUS here) event happened yet, stinks of WP:FORUMSHOP. I hope, we'll be able to abstain from coming back to this discussion, till such event arises. 212.192.164.14 (talk) 12:55, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

"Georgia Crisis" and "Conflict in Georgia" are used by mainstream media (BBC, CNN and so on)Finalyzer (talk) 02:19, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Counting google hits is not a very good argumentation as it doesn't take into account the quality of pages - google search for accomodate returns 7,640,000 hits. Many people would consider any variation on "Georgia War" a POV similarly to how many other would "Yugoslavia War". Differences between the two are subject to POV. Billyblind (talk) 04:28, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Once more: back to a neutral title which cannot be seen as POV!! Some little wikipedias have decided in favour of "Russian-Georgian war", the majority is keeping "SO War" or similar titles but more as temporary solution. Elysander (talk) 09:12, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

War in Georgia 2008 is neutral. Grey Fox (talk) 10:40, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

One can argue if it was any real 'war' in "mainland" Georgia. Finalyzer (talk) 16:32, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

OK ! Support moving to War in Georgia (2008). Elysander (talk) 11:44, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Wow! What do you call a majority of voters? 3-5 people? It's a minority. "War in Georgia" has irrelevant semantics. Let's keep the voting process a bit longer to make it unbiassed. Taamu (talk) 12:38, 23 September 2008 (UTC) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Reposting from last name change conversation. This if the fourth time the Devil's Advocate is desperately trying to get the name changed. Should I post all four attempts on his talk page? Qouting: "So I'll sum it up: the name of the article was challenged on several grounds: 1. Most of the media says so, and we should do so! 2. It would be easier to find. 3. Naming this the 2008 South Ossetia War is somehow Russian Propaganda. These arguments are plain silly. If one googles "Russia, Georgia, War" in any order, and adds "wiki" at the end this is the very first article that pops up, so #2 is moot. Also Wikipedia shouldn't follow CNN "The Most Trusted Name in News" - who later alluded that Russian were responsible for 2,000 civvie deaths, whereas it is under 150, very trustworthy CNN, or Fox News who called MSNBC's FACT READING OF THE WAR "pro-Russian" and they're somehow supposed to be "Fair and Balanced". In truth CNN/Fox News/Sky News are massively pro-Georgian and have been so throught the war, Fox News even pulling the interview of a South Ossetian girl. The coverage of Georgia's attack on Tskhinvali was scarce, the coverage of Russia's response was abundant, very "Fair and Balanced". CNN trimmed Putin's 30 minute interview to 3 minutes, and after this we're supposed to trust CNN to show all sides, when Saakashvili gets unlimited time and Putin gets 3 minutes of CNN selected quotes? CNN/Fox News/Sky News have propagated (from propaganda) this war as the Russia-Georgia War to protray Russia as the attacker, despite the FACT that Russian Peacekeepers were fired upon first. The status of the Peacekeepers was legitimized by the Russo-Georgian Treaties [such as the one signed by both countries in 1992]. If you want to debate those, then create or look for articles regarding to those treaties and debate it there. In this case the Russian Peacekeepers, a part of the Russian Army, were fired upon, and when the Russian Army is fired upon it has this tendency to shoot back. Thus #1 and #3 are moot if Wikipedia is to be objective. The irony here is that people are calling the title "2008 South Ossetia War" Russian Propaganda, whereas their suggesting to amend it is blatant CNN/Fox News/Sky News Propaganda. " 68.164.150.25 (talk) 05:56, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Ah yes, all the google hits and google news hits are from "propaganda sources"? Grey Fox (talk) 10:41, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

That's another time you've failed to get the point. The point: Google Hit Prevalency IS NOT The Decisive Argument, Because Mainstream Media Neutrality Is Disputed. That makes your google stats absolutely irrelevant to renaming discussion at the moment. I don't see, why it's so hard for you to understand. 212.192.164.14 (talk) 13:17, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

"Mainstream Media Neutrality Is Disputed". Uhm by who? Read WP:V, current media reports and academic material is exactly what we need. Otherwise you're closing to Original Research. Grey Fox (talk) 16:45, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

The Mainstream Media, Fox News, CNN and MSNBC each call each other liars. If that's not a dispute, I don't know what is. 72.245.82.86 (talk) 06:53, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Please read wikipedia's core policy, verifiability, not truth. We should go by mainstream media for a title, not make up some kind of title that you personally like better. Grey Fox (talk) 18:41, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I keep calling for a rename because the article needs to be renamed. In the conflict box listing conflicts in the former Soviet Union, this one is listed as Second South Ossetia, but it was also the third Abkhazia war by any account because the war spread there as well and it involved undisputed Georgian territory. So clearly the scope is well beyond South Ossetia and the article's title should reflect that and not stick to a title that is the same damn thing it was called at the very beginning! When this article was first started this title was given and the title then did accurately reflect the scope of the conflict. Now it does not reflect the scope of the conflict so the title should be changed. That's rename 101. You can also find maybe a dozen recent sources that called this the "South Ossetia War" and thousands saying it was the "War in Georgia" so tell me who wins out in that equation? It's not even a contest. Instead of giving a lot of worthless argument against changing the title how about providing some legitimate justification for keeping the title. Does it accurately reflect that this conflict spread to Abkhazia, Poti, Gori, saw naval engagements on Georgia's western coast (far from South Ossetia), and involved dozens of air sorties over all of Georgia including the capital Tblisi? If it does not, then it needs to be changed and that much shouldn't even be a matter of discussion.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 05:37, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

And we've been over this before. Your reasoning for the change is invalid. Saying "most people that I like say so" isn't something that can be viewed as objective. If you want a majority rules contest, I urge you to watch American Idol. Also, over 80% of the fighting took place in South Ossetia, and had Georgia NOT invaded South Ossetia, there would be no war. Period. There are a lot more actual INDEPENDENT media resources calling it 2008 South Ossetia War if you are willing to look beyond Corporate Sponsored "Independent" Reports and accross the Atlantic, whilst avoding the UK, who's gov't. is so unpopular with its people that they're signing petitions saying "the government doesn't speak for us". Let the name stay as it is for a few months, let tensions cool down a tad and then MAYBE we can talk about changing it, but suggesting name changes 4 times in 2 weeks does make you look like an annoying [comment edidted]. Some people think it does, you think it doesn't, tough, no need to be annoying about it. There are a lot of things I don't like about this article too. 72.245.82.86 (talk) 06:53, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

72.245.82.86, you alledge that someone deliberately influenced the bulk of western media to call the war "conflict in georgia" instead of "south ossetia war". That is such an absurd conspiracy theory that I am almost at a loss how to respond. There is no single person or organistation powerful enough to pull that off. Neither would anyone (some wikipedia editors apart) care enough to pull such a stunt.

You alledge that "lot more actual INDEPENDENT media resources calling it 2008 South Ossetia War" and that "The Mainstream Media, Fox News, CNN and MSNBC each call each other liars." without any evidence whatsoever. Might I asked what you regard as independent media? Or how any of that changes the fact that the war was not exclusively fought in South Ossetia for that matter? --Xeeron (talk) 09:53, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Before 72.245.82.86 will have his say, i want to point out, that you, Xeeron, by your "war was not exclusively fought in South Ossetia" are shifting an emphasis to the argument, that was already countered. Just for example(quoting from old discussions):

"The flashpoint for this conflict as well as its main focus of operation was the South Ossetian region. Conflicts are commonly named after the region the conflict is over, not just an overarcing term to describe all regions involved. Both the Iraq War and the War in Afghanistan are named so despite involving actions and operations outside of the territorial boundaries of those countries."

"The flashpoint for this conflict" was rather Abkhazia for weeks and months and years before August of 2008. --83.13.196.130 (talk) 13:45, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

"The conflict began in South Ossetia, and although it did spread, a majority of the fighting between involved parties (and causalities inflicted by ground warfare) occurred in that territory. Now, if Russia and Georgia fight again over unresolved issues in the region (hopefully not) then it will probably necessitate a name change."

"The current name reflects the cause, objective, and the primary theater of the war. Neutralizing offensive capabilities of Georgia by Russia within Georgia proper does not change these facts and does not make it a war between Georgia and Russia."

If Georgia decided to "neutralize offensive capabilities of Russia" and bombed Moscow and invaded and occupied North Ossetia, would it "not make it a war between Georgia and Russia", too? --83.13.196.130 (talk) 13:49, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't recall Russia killing Georgian Civvies without provocation either. 72.245.3.111 (talk) 01:33, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

To the day, i haven't seen any counter-arguments to that. 212.192.164.14 (talk) 12:41, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

The larger part of the air strikes did not occur in SO. None of the naval action did occur in or anywhere near SO. The huge majority of the territory captured by russian troops (going by the map) was not in SO. The two biggest cities occupied where not in SO. One of the parties listed as belligerents is Abkhazia. As a result, two countries were recognised by russia, not one. --Xeeron (talk) 15:39, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Over 80-90% of the fighting occurred in South Ossetia. The naval action lasted about five minutes. There were a few minor sparks in Abkhazia, as is seen by the few numbers of military casualties there. As the defeated Georgian Army ran from South Ossetia, the Russians moved in and captured a lot of territorry in skirmishes, not major fighting. Only major battle was the Battle of Tskhinvali, the rest were just skirmishes and pre-emptive Georgian routs. Therefore the name correctly portrays the war. 72.245.3.111 (talk) 01:33, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Xeeron, you clearly aren't watching American Media. Xeeron said (reposting) ""72.245.82.86, you alledge that someone deliberately influenced the bulk of western media to call the war "conflict in georgia" instead of "south ossetia war". That is such an absurd conspiracy theory that I am almost at a loss how to respond. There is no single person or organistation powerful enough to pull that off. Neither would anyone (some wikipedia editors apart) care enough to pull such a stunt.

You alledge that "lot more actual INDEPENDENT media resources calling it 2008 South Ossetia War" and that "The Mainstream Media, Fox News, CNN and MSNBC each call each other liars." without any evidence whatsoever. Might I asked what you regard as independent media? Or how any of that changes the fact that the war was not exclusively fought in South Ossetia for that matter? --Xeeron (talk) 09:53, 24 September 2008 (UTC)""

Mind you, isn't this the same person who brought up George Soros? That push for a disclaimer didn't get very far. Ottre 01:40, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually Xeeron it's not an absurd conspiracy. When Georgia invaded South Ossetia the media simply stated "Georgian forces enter South Ossetia" in a very one line, calm manner. When Russia responded, in came the punches, with Fox News and CNN leading the way, but it was all over the major newspapers too! LA Times had pictures of suffering Georgian Citizens, nothing about South Ossetian Citizens. The Georgian provacation was a one liner, the Russian Response was telivized as if Russia's starting a World War. There's a plethora of evidence pointing to lies, such as CNN's bullshit claim that Russia killed 2,000 civillians. Then the "most trusted name in news" as CNN claims gave Saakashvili unlimited air time, but failed to televise Putin's 30 minute interview, trimming it to 3 minutes instead. In the very first days of war the videos on Youtube (where Putin's CNN interview is available) contrasted drastically with those propelled by the mainstream media. Fox News pulled an interview with an Ossetian Girl from their network, becaused she dared to say that Georgians were shooting at them, not Russians. Is Youtube pro-Russian?

As for Fox News, CNN and MSNBC criticizing each other - just google "Olberman - O'Reilly" or "MSNBC - Fox News". What world are you living in Xeeron? In terms of politics CNN and Fox News suck up to Republicans, and MSNBC is more of a Democratic station, so yeah, they are biased. Just watch Olberman or O'Reilly, virtually any episode, and you'll find them calling each other liars, only difference is Olberman offers facts, while O'Reilly doesn't live in the real World. Do you really need me to Google this and post the very first (or sometimes second or third links) here? The purpose of this article prevents me from commenting further, but if you actually had the decency to Google it before your post, you would be very surprised by the results. You may also check out German Media, which is, surprisingly and aside from Jon Stewart, the most unbiased in the war. 72.245.3.111 (talk) 01:33, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

<< LA Times had pictures of suffering Georgian Citizens, nothing about South Ossetian Citizens.>>

It could be because there are no pictures of suffering South Ossetian Citizens. Mind you if there were, they would probably pass them off as Georgians.Kislorod (talk) 02:54, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

For your sake, I did google both "Olberman - O'Reilly" and "MSNBC - Fox News". What does it tell you? The first that two talk show hosts have to big egos, the second that some news channels in america are leftwing and some are rightwing. Apart from the fact that you should not use talk shows as your primary source of information, what does that tell you about any anti-russian or anti-georgian bias? Nothing.

Finally, "mainstream press" is not restricted to the US. All international media reporting (quite a lot) is included. --Xeeron (talk) 13:23, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

"Finally, "mainstream press" is not restricted to the US. All international media reporting (quite a lot) is included." With the exception of many russian secondary sources, of course. And "Quite a lot" means BBC copypasting from CNN and vice versa, maybe a bit of AlJazeera, some russian anti-governmental newspapers and ...? 212.192.164.14 (talk) 13:50, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia works with reliable sources people, see WP:V. It says "verifiability, not truth". Most reliable sources, in fact almost all of them, name this conflict either the "war in georgia" or the "russian-georgian war". "south ossetia war" is hardly used at all. All of the arguments against renaming are simply based on Original Research, which means that many of you are trying to make up a title which simply fits your Point of View better. This should stop and a rename is completely legitimate. Grey Fox (talk) 18:38, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what "almost all of them" counted as reliable source. Check 'Georgia crisis' it beats every other name easily. Finalyzer (talk) 20:19, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

On regular google it does, but is surpassed by "georgia war". Not on google news where "War in Georgia" is still the most popular term. Also "Georgia Crisis" mostly refers to the conflict excluding warfare as well, for example, the georgia crisis is still ongoing, but the war in georgia already ended. Grey Fox (talk) 01:00, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Just checked, "georgia war" - 600,000 ; "Georgia Crisis" - 1,100,000 and all mainstream media there. And it wasn't any real war in mainland Georgia to say that it's already ended. Finalyzer (talk) 01:19, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

"Georgia War" gives me 1.340.000 results, "Georgia Crisis" 585.000. It was initially a bit higher than 585, so numbers change over time. Anyway it's better to use google news searches, not regular google. The "war in georgia" surpasses every other title, even though it only refers to the past shootings. Georgia crisis, or georgia conflict refers to the overall conflict that has been ongoing for years. Grey Fox (talk) 01:45, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

That's odd. We are obviously using different googles :-). I'd say google results aren't applicable to our discussion then. Finalyzer (talk) 02:50, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Not always, but google news (a different search engine) is pretty reliable. They give pretty obvious results that prove that the name "south ossetia war" hardly exists. Grey Fox (talk) 03:00, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Am I to understand, that we and users worldwide should use only those of search engines, which pretty obviously prove your point? :) 212.192.164.14 (talk) 13:39, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

No? Google news search is the quickest way to get an overview of reliable sources. Grey Fox (talk) 16:21, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and on Google, www.google.com, it's the first article that pops up, and it's called 2008 South Ossetian War. Earlier people wanted to rename this to Russo-Georgian (or Russia-Georgia) war, because they claimed it's how mass media portrayed it. Now they want to rename it Georgian War, because that's the most popular search. Well guys, this is the FIRST LINK off of Google and it's called "2008 South Ossetian War". This isn't a popularity contest, it's wikipedia, but even if this was a popularity contest, it still comes first, under the search terms "Georgia" "Russia" and "War". Ergo this article is clearly popular, so why not use the article's popularity to inform the reader where most of the fighting took place right away, rather then turning it into "my media said so and they're better then your media" popularity contest. 68.165.239.187 (talk) 20:48, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Uhh, since when is the "first result" supposed to be the best result? Also the first result is often wikipedia. War In georgia (2008) is probably the best, alternatively the Russian-Georgian War for which a large amount of sources exist as well. Sources for the "south ossetia war" hardly exist. Grey Fox (talk) 20:58, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

"since when is the "first result" supposed to be the best result?" Ok, let me explain. If you will actually read wikipedia rules, you'll find out, that

(a) Naming article for most popular title in media is a guideline, not a policy, and, in case of controversy, is supposed to be superseded by, you know, that "CONSENSUS" thing, i keep blabbing about.

(b) Spirit of this guideline is not to fix our choices of article name with those from pop-culture, like you seem to think, but to provide an article name, that allows average user to come across wikipedia page, while searching for a phrase he is most likely to use. Or, as wikipedia puts it "The purpose of an article's title is to enable that article to be found by interested readers, and nothing more." We have achieved that, don't you think? Please, keep any other of your google stats, especially those, which imply, that we must have your preferred title, somewhere else.

(c) First priority place in article naming is held not by verifiability and popular usage, but by neutrality and, yeah, consensus. Wikipedia says: "In these types of disputes, it is important to note that verifiability lives alongside neutrality, it does not override it... Verifiability is only one content criterion. Neutral point of view is a core policy of Wikipedia, mandatory, non-negotiable, and to be followed in all articles. Concerns related to undue weight, non-neutral fact selection and wording, and advancing a personal view, are not addressed even slightly by asserting that the matter is verifiable and cited." "South Ossetia war", besides having other advantages, is neutral: it does not say who was right or wrong, it does not do so even implicitly, by stating whose war that was: Russia vs Georgia, South Ossetia and Abkhasia vs Georgia, CIS Peacekeepers vs Georgia, or... do i mention Georgia a lot? Should we, therefore, call our article "War in Georgia", thereby implicitly denying independence of South Ossetia? I don't think so.

To sum it all up. We have already had a huge discussion about article renaming, but it resembled a talk of mute with deaf, meaning, each side's arguments being presented, were barely countered, or even seemed to be heard, for that matter. And, frankly, i don't think, that any further discussions will be any better. It can be seen very clearly on the example of the one we're having right now, with its underrepresentation of editors and arguments. Speak about neutrality in such a conditions, i dare you. This discussion about article renaming is useless, at the very least. Unless some striking new information appears, the name should stay as it is. I hope, i've explained things as clearly as possible. 212.192.164.14 (talk) 11:28, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

212 is correct. Naming the article War in Georgia would confuse the reader by implying that South Ossetia did not have de facto independence, which we all know is bullshit. De Jure it was part of Georgia before the war began, De Facto it was independent, that's what created the initial controversy. Now the De Jure status of the region is uncertain - take for instance the EU stance which explicitly points out that the region is part of Georgia, but also says that it will not do anything about Russian troops staying in the region of South Ossetia. By renaming the article the War in Georgia - we are implicitly denying the average reader the option to research De Facto vs. De Jure. Thus the name must stay. Also guys, give it a rest already, another post and I'm writing a novel on it. It's not a threat, just a fact. And Mr. Grey Fox, didn't you earlier imply that we should change to title to get more hits? Then when I point out that we're number one in hits, you say: "Uhh, since when is the "first result" supposed to be the best result?". Are you flip-flopping on your own words? Isn't that like really, really bad for a wikipedia editor? As for media biased that I've talked about earlier I forgot to add that one should Youtube "Outfoxed". 68.164.117.178 (talk) 20:43, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

(RI) How is "South Ossetia war" any less or more POV than "War in Georgia" or "Russia-Georgia war" or "Georgia-Russia-South Ossetia-Abkhazia war"? I can take you arguement, flip the words 180 degrees and it will state we are taking sides with this title as well. Which is the reason the title should be based on how it is commonly called by other sources. --Xeeron (talk) 22:11, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Xeeron - 2008 South Ossetia War means that the war started in the South Ossetian Region in 2008. If you can tell me how that's POV and not a fact, please do. Educate me. And it doesn't go into whether South Ossetia is a country or not, because some countries (Nauru) are a single region. Other regions, such as North Ossetia, are part of countries, such as Russia. Thus, from the South Ossetian/Russian angle the title is unbiased, and from the Georgian/Western Mass Media angle the title's unbiased. It's totally non-biased. The 2008 Georgian War IMPLIES that South Ossetia is and/or was De Facto part of Georgia, which is NOT TRUE. 67.101.55.80 (talk) 00:08, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

2008 South Ossetia war suggests that the war took place only in SO and suggests the war was only about SO, which is just as much a one-sided POV as any of the other names. --Xeeron (talk) 14:07, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Or may be it suggest that the war was for the fate of South Ossetia? Finalyzer (talk) 23:13, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

This is nonsense. It's not a question of POV or whether you use google searches. This title cannot stand because the scope of the conflict went well beyond South Ossetia and no one could possibly deny this. I'm only suggesting the name that is used the most in Western, Russian, and other world media sources. It is also used the most in academic circles. In general the scope of the subject justifies a different title and it is boosted by the fact the current title is hardly used while another is very widely used.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 00:02, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Very colorfull argument Devil's Advocate. Calling my argument nonsense, and making a statement unfiltered by rational thought. War in South Ossetia 2008 is the official name that's used in Russia. You shouldn't be making arguments that are contradicted by facts. Furthermore over 90% of the fighting took place in South Ossetia and Georgian brutal attack on Tskhnivali was the main reason that the Russians went in. French Wikipedia also calls it War in South Ossetia, German Wikipedia calls it Conflict in the Caucasian Region (which is incorrect). Spanish Wikipedia also calls it War in South Ossetia. So saying that 'other World media sources' uses it the most is bullshit. English media sources used the Russia-Georgia War initially, now they've switched over to War in Georgia, who knows they may swtich yet again. In short your argument is moot, and it also FAILS at countering my main point that "War in Georgia" would be POV, since it implies that South Ossetia is part of Georgia, whereas "South Ossetia War 2008" doesn't imply that South Ossetia is independent from Georgia, but merely points the reader to the reason for the conflict, as well as pointing the reader to the location where over 90% of the actual fighting took place. And you had no trouble concurring with the Google Search arguments when they've made your point, now you're against them? 68.164.117.79 (talk) 01:13, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Mr. 68.164.117.79 I don't mean to be frank but your title does assert that SO is a de factor a country when only a handful number of countries recognizes it as such, The majority of the world still see it as a part of Georgia after all it was and is a civilwar. On top of that South Ossetians & Abkahzians are Russian citizens so this would mean that they are in fact part of the Russian Federation. This is also the problem logically, to call it as such, is to recognize the regional sovereignty of that area therefore confirming that the region exist but many speak of it which confirms it's existence now that the region is confirmed to exist what is this region part of? It is for the most part still the Georgian region its more to do with logic then POV. My friend Mr 68.164.117.79 I'm trying front with you whatsoever but that statement SO War doesn't make sense to me. However I think that the solution is probably like Pubkjre said in regards to the Vietnam article but this needs to stop any title can seem that it has a POV and can have great arguments to support it even though the title has good intentions so to debate it any further wouldn't do good, every informational data base has a bias its just a question of how much.Furthermore I'm going to also defend the google searches because it a good way to see how many individuals speak of in reference to, I am not saying that because everyone calls it as such then it should be so, but the easier it is to find the better as illogical as that sounds.In Summation I second Pubkjre we should have a Etymology page that way it will be clear on who is using what name and why. --XChile (talk) 14:35, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

68.164.117.79, you should think about registering an account here. It is really hard to know whom we are discussing here if half of the entries are by IPs. Obviously one of the above IPs must be you as well, since you talk about "my argument". It would make this discussion easier if you always signed with the same name. --Xeeron (talk) 14:00, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

In response to XChile - South Ossetia is NOT a biased name. It's the name of a region (if you are Georgian) or a region that is a country (if you are Russian). If you look at a map of Georgian Regions, provided by the Georgian government, South Ossetia is one of the regions. Duh! Also De Facto countries do not need recognition, De Jure countries do. Taiwan is a De Facto Country - yet only a handful of countries recognized it. De Facto country means Unrecognized Country, unrecognized by the UN. De Jure Country means a country that's a UN member. Thus we are calling the war after the region where it started and where most of the fighting took place. Xeeron - I think I will register an account on Wikipedia. I'll only focus on a couple of articles though. Just as military historian, I love that a war is fought and written about in my time, that's so cool, barring civvie losses of course. 68.164.117.79 (talk) 23:58, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Mr.68.164.117.79 Yes point holds ground but you failed to understand the point I bring that is we should have a Etymology page as Pubkjre said because of high debate and the many reasons for different titles and we need to stop debating it. I highly welcome your facts and info if you have the time please do register your contribution is welcomed. But let it be known that for the record that the two regions in questions have russian citizenship which makes them russians so then a war between the citizens of the state of Georgia and Russia its quite clear were I stand However changing the title seems pointless now as it is in cease fire in Summation as I said previously no title is without bias therefore like Pubkjre asserted Etymology page please. For now we should put the question of the title should be put to rest....for now. But Mr. 68.164.117.79 I welcome your opinions on my talk page.--XChile (talk) 02:14, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Are you gonna object to the title "American civil war" because it suggests the Confederacy wasn't a country? How about the article on the 90's referring to the Georgian Civil War which happens to include South Ossetia and Abkhazia? How about numerous separatist conflicts where the name refers to the country as a whole or calls it a civil war? Are you gonna object to all these on POV grounds? The fact Abkhazia and South Ossetia were negotiating their status in the first place suggests they even acknowledged they had not truly gained their independence and significant portions of South Ossetian and Abkhaz territory being fought over in this war was under Georgian control and hence de-facto part of Georgia. You say "War in Georgia" is POV because the Russians don't see it that way when the Russia media has actually called it that. This title needs to be changed because, yet again, it doesn't reflect the scope of the conflict. You'd think nothing happened in the Black Sea, that nothing happened in the Kodori Gorge, that nothing happened in Gori, that nothing happened in Poti, or that somehow there were no air raids across Georgia.

Honestly, I don't care what this title is changed to because the only thing that matters is it changes to something which reflects the true scope of the conflict as the current title does not. I'm only suggesting the title "War in Georgia" because it is for all intents and purposes the most widely used.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 07:27, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

"Are you gonna object to the title "American civil war" because it suggests the Confederacy wasn't a country?" I don't think that a reference to a war, which happened way before WW2, inside an ethnically isotropic population, is appropriate here.

"How about the article on the 90's referring to the Georgian Civil War which happens to include South Ossetia and Abkhazia? How about numerous separatist conflicts where the name refers to the country as a whole or calls it a civil war? Are you gonna object to all these on POV grounds?" Actually, yes, I am. I'd have thought, that the well-known facts of forced addition of South Ossetia territory to Georgia during Stalin's rule, and South Ossetia declaring independence in full accordance with USSR secession procedure earlier than Georgia(therefore, not being part of it in any way), will do that for me, but i'm obviously mistaken.

"The fact Abkhazia and South Ossetia were negotiating their status in the first place suggests they even acknowledged they had not truly gained their independence and significant portions of South Ossetian and Abkhaz territory being fought over in this war was under Georgian control and hence de-facto part of Georgia." Yeah, and Iraq, being under US control, is de-facto part of US. Good point, i should remember it. Of course they were "negotiating", if that's what you call 15 years worth of regularly occuring skirmishes. You should try telling that "you're not acknowledged your independence" sentence to some abkhazian guy, and see what happens.

"You say "War in Georgia" is POV because the Russians don't see it that way when the Russia media has actually called it that." You know, not very hard, though, it may be to guess, but i'm obliged to tell, that i'm a russian. And neither me, nor anyone i've talked to since the event, "see it that way". I've barely heard russian media calling it anything but "Georgian-Ossetian conflict" and "peacekeeping operation". Pointing at these rare ocassions, when it's called "War in Georgia", and claiming, that they have any significance, looks very strange to me.

"This title needs to be changed because, yet again, it doesn't reflect the scope of the conflict." Vietnam war wasn't restricted to Vietnam either, it just was "about" Vietnam. And the Black Sea isn't the part of Georgia, should we, therefore, in our eagerness to "reflect the scope of the conflict", name our article something like "Conflict in Caucasus region"?

"Honestly, I don't care what this title is changed to because the only thing that matters is it changes to something which reflects the true scope of the conflict as the current title does not. I'm only suggesting the title "War in Georgia" because it is for all intents and purposes the most widely used." You know, Advocate, I would be very glad to believe, that you "don't care". But it's not like you will care about me trusting you, and it's not like it will be easy for me, after having read all your posts in older "rename" discussions. By the way, i suggest you and everybody else to reread these, they will show, that every single argument and counter-argument used in that section, was there. That's why i believe this discussion to be pointless. 217.8.236.170 (talk) 18:43, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

The vietnam war is a very good example, because it has its own "terminology" section (most likely after they had the same discussion on their own talk page). In any case "Conflict in the caucasus" is still better than south ossetian war. Btw, the part of the Black sea next to georgia is part of georgia, check Territorial waters.

"every single argument and counter-argument used in that section, was there. That's why i believe this discussion to be pointless." Assume I moved the article to "War in Georgia" now and after you complain, I point out that "every single argument and counter-argument" has been used before. Would you agree that your complaint would be pointless? I hope not. --Xeeron (talk) 15:09, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Xeeron - I want you to walk up to an Armenian and recommend that this title should be changed to Conflict in the Caucases. Provided that you don't get knocked out in the first round, you will soon realize why that title would be very, very bad. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 15:58, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I guess the Armenian would tell me "Why conflict in the caucaus, when this war was only fought in georgia?". To which I would answer: "I hear you man, but there are those people on wiki talk pages who feel that war in georgia is POV, because parts of south ossetia were de facto independant before the war". At which point he would look at me puzzled, agree with me that wikipedia editors are a crazy folk and invite me over for dinner. Alternatively, he would share the story of his own 3 year edit war over Nagorno-Karabakh. --Xeeron (talk) 16:49, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

The Devil's Advocate continues his erroneous ways: "Are you gonna object to the title "American civil war" because it suggests the Confederacy wasn't a country? How about the article on the 90's referring to the Georgian Civil War which happens to include South Ossetia and Abkhazia? How about numerous separatist conflicts where the name refers to the country as a whole or calls it a civil war? Are you gonna object to all these on POV grounds? The fact Abkhazia and South Ossetia were negotiating their status in the first place suggests they even acknowledged they had not truly gained their independence and significant portions of South Ossetian and Abkhaz territory being fought over in this war was under Georgian control and hence de-facto part of Georgia. You say "War in Georgia" is POV because the Russians don't see it that way when the Russia media has actually called it that. This title needs to be changed because, yet again, it doesn't reflect the scope of the conflict. You'd think nothing happened in the Black Sea, that nothing happened in the Kodori Gorge, that nothing happened in Gori, that nothing happened in Poti, or that somehow there were no air raids across Georgia. Honestly, I don't care what this title is changed to because the only thing that matters is it changes to something which reflects the true scope of the conflict as the current title does not. I'm only suggesting the title "War in Georgia" because it is for all intents and purposes the most widely used."

Once again, as I've told you many a time, we are living in the 21st century, and naming wars following the post-WWII conventions. The article's on the 90's included battles all over Georgia, where Georgian Nationalists fought South Ossetian and Abkhazian nationalists, and quite frankly that war was poorly documented. In addition it included conflicts in Adjaria, which is De Facto part of Georgia. So that was actually a messy civil war where 80% of the fighting did NOT take place in a single region. Now as per numerous separatist conflicts - do you mean like Darfur? Oh wait, that's called the Darfur crisis, NOT the Sudan Civil War. Furthermore Devil's Advocate, you really have to read the article before commenting; there's a map that shows that aside from the Kodori Valley, Georgian held territorry was in no way, shape or form significant, and the Kodori Valley campaign wasn't a significant part of the war. Furthermore, the astute reader can look at the map, (before talking about significant portions would help) and see that Poti, Gori, Senaki, etc. came under attack. But this war has been over De Facto Independence of the South Ossetian Region, and calling it anything else is B/S, plain and simple.

Of course you don't care, you just vehemently want to change it to something that reflects your POV. Please, don't lie, at least not in the same discussion title. On a side note I figured out why Georgia War gets so many hits. There's also a state called Georgia, and Georgia War picks up Georgia Civil War as well. And I registered! HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 15:52, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I would say it's pretty clear that War in Georgia is the most common name used in English speaking news (and also in most other languages, but I guess we should stick to English news since this is English Wikipedia). South Ossetia war only gets 14 hits at Google News Search while War in Georgia gets 3600+ hits. Can it be clearer? Staying with South Ossetia War, which some editors have claimed to be the name used in Russian media, sounds much more like a Russian POV. Närking (talk) 16:39, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

It's also possible to rename 1991-1992_South_Ossetia_War article too, but... Does somebody think that the war in 2008 isn't a part of Georgian–Ossetian conflict? Is it possible that the Georgian Civil War isn't concerned with Georgian–Ossetian and Georgian-Abkhazian conflicts? Does somebody think that those conflicts ended in 90th?..

And again, please read the Vietnam War article. It has not only Terminology/Etymology section... The first words of that article are "The Vietnam War, also known as the Second Indochina War, or the Vietnam Conflict, occurred in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia from 1959 to April 30, 1975". I think that it is a good example... (Pubkjre (talk) 21:36, 1 October 2008 (UTC))

I may only wonder, why do i have to recite the posts from this very section. Here goes:

"(a) Naming article for most popular title in media is a guideline, not a policy"

So, Närking, your "guess we should stick to English news" is wrong.

"(b) Spirit of this guideline is not to fix our choices of article name with those from pop-culture... but to provide an article name, that allows average user to come across wikipedia page, while searching for a phrase he is most likely to use... We have achieved that."

That means, that

"under the search terms "Georgia" "Russia" and "War"... this is the FIRST LINK off of Google and it's called "2008 South Ossetian War". This isn't a popularity contest, it's wikipedia, but even if this was a popularity contest, it still comes first."

So

"Please, keep any other of your google stats, especially those, which imply, that we must have your preferred title, somewhere else."

"(c) First priority place in article naming is held not by verifiability and popular usage, but by neutrality... Concerns related to... non-neutral fact selection and wording, and advancing a personal view, are not addressed even slightly by asserting that the matter is verifiable and cited."

That means, non-neutral title may be ten times popular in whatever media you think is reliable, but that doesn't make it an appropriate title for wikipedia.

Major candidates are:

1)(RGW) Spelling variations of Russian-Georgian war

2)(WiG) War in Georgia

3)(SOW) War in South Ossetia/South Ossetia war

We're looking for neutral title and

""South Ossetia war", besides having other advantages, is neutral: it does not say who was right or wrong, it does not do so even implicitly, by stating whose war that was: Russia vs Georgia, South Ossetia and Abkhasia vs Georgia, CIS Peacekeepers vs Georgia, or... do i mention Georgia a lot? Should we, therefore, call our article "War in Georgia", thereby implicitly denying independence of South Ossetia? I don't think so."

I can only add, that completely skipping the mention of South Ossetia in the title, will not only deny it's independence, but will imply, that the war was not "about" South Ossetia, like Russia protecting it from Georgia, but rather about something more gruesome like Russia invading Georgia, which is clearly pro-georgian POV. One might turn my argument inside out, and say, that SOW title is clearly pro-russian POV, because it implies the other way, but that means he didn't notice a subtle difference: whether or not Russia was invading Georgia is disputed, whether or not Georgia was invading South Ossetia is not. That means, SOW title says only that Russia was fighting on one side with South Ossetia, not that it had no "imperial ambitions". That's why SOW takes point over WiG.

RGW carries negative connotations of "aboutness" a step further from WiG. Of course, one might say

"the two regions in questions have russian citizenship which makes them russians so then a war between the citizens of the state of Georgia and Russia, its quite clear were I stand."

I say, yeah, RGW can be considered technically neutral this way, but still, i can tell you, that people here in Russia, including me, would object to such kind of neutralness. For us it was not a "war between russian citizens and georgian citizens", it was a war of men on military service, who, therefore, don't have free will by definition, even when for georgians it meant executing criminal orders of their high command. So, you see, it was more like Russia-Saakashvili war for us. I hold nothing against common georgians. We hope here, that this shameful event will not be left in history with a name like RGW, thus further spreading animosity, seeded by a bunch of wicked politicians, but will soon be forgotten by both nations, and we'll return to our usual friendly coexistence. No, that's not saying it properly. I have georgian friends here, dammit! And i still wanna be friends with them, and their kids be friends with mine, not being taught in their history classes about "imperialistic russia's attempt of invasion", like it seems to be going to happen! I hope, you see now, why RGW can be considered POV, not to mention it's suffering from the same drawbacks as WiG.

"No title is without bias" says XChile, and i agree with him, but SOW title, has at least one neutral interpretation: the region, where nearly all fighting occured, and the casus belli. One might argue, that our WiG can also be neutrally interpreted as a region, moreover, as the region, where all fighting took place. But i have already presented my argumentation in favor of SOW and against WiG, and it's not like we just have to include in our title every single location, the fighting took place in, to abide by wikipedia rules and historical conventions:

"Conflicts are commonly named after the region the conflict is over, not just an overarcing term to describe all regions involved. Both the Iraq War and the War in Afghanistan are named so despite involving actions and operations outside of the territorial boundaries of those countries."

And to conclude my point, i want to counter what Närking said. He said:

"Staying with South Ossetia War, which some editors have claimed to be the name used in Russian media, sounds much more like a Russian POV."

If someone POVed says something, that does not mean it's non-neutral. Something is either neutral or not, no matter who said it, Närking, or concept of wikipedia wouldn't work, because we all have a POV, after all. 217.8.236.185 (talk) 22:56, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

XChile/Pubkrje - I like your idea of Etymology, but I'm just tired of this "Rename" battle. Is there a war we can get in a few months breather and then do Etymology? I have nothing against it, it's just over and over and over.... HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 04:26, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

People who read news or watch TV would search for War in Georgia since that's what it is called there and while doing so they wouldn't find their way to Wikipedia since here it is for some reason called South Ossetia war. At least the Swedish Wikipedia has changed to Kriget i Georgien 2008 which corresponds to what it is called in Media (originally they had South Ossetia there too). Närking (talk) 11:02, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

People, who READ, would have known from above, that any kind of search for "Russia"+"Georgia"+"War"+"wiki" brings our page as first link, that any kind of search for "Russia"+"Georgia"+"War" lists our article on the first result page at the very least, and that any kind of search for "Georgia"+"War" will drown our article, no matter how it's named, in plenty of other pages and wikipedia articles about other numerous events, which qualify as "War in Georgia", so insisting on such a title is plainly stupid. Please, cease bringing up such proposals, it's getting ridiculous. 212.192.164.14 (talk) 11:30, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

What can I say, HistoricWarrior007?.. Please wait for a year, or better for several years. Only after that time we will know the best name for this article. And it's possible that future name will have nothing in common with current names...

Now we see the logical finals of Georgian–Ossetian and Georgian-Abkhazian conflicts after the failed attempt of the Georgian government to gain revenge for Georgian Civil War.

Well, there is the naming problem... But this problem is concerned not only with this article, but with the whole problem of Georgian–Ossetian and Georgian-Abkhazian relations.(Pubkjre (talk) 20:34, 2 October 2008 (UTC))

Ok, because of 217.8.236.185 long post above, I took the time to reread the appropriate wikipedia pages:

• Wikipedia:Naming conventions is a wikipedia policy (not a guideline)
• Wikipedia:Naming conflict is more specific, but not a policy

The policy does not deal specifically with conflicts, but states in the first section Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.

Naming conflict is more specific (following subsection copied from there):

Identification of common names using external references

A number of methods can be used to identify which of a pair (or more) conflicting names is the most prevalent in English.

• The Google test. Using Google's advanced search option, search for each conflicting name and confine the results to pages written in English; also exclude the word "Wikipedia" (as we want to see what other people are using, not our own usage). Note which is the most commonly used term.
• International organisations. Search for the conflicting names on the websites of organisations such as the United Nations, NATO, OSCE, IMF, etc.
• Major English-language media outlets. Use Google News and, where possible, the archives of major outlets such as BBC News and CNN to identify common usages. Some media organisations have established style guides covering naming issues, which can provide useful guidance (e.g. The Guardian's style guide says use Ukraine, not the Ukraine).
• Reference works. Check other encyclopedias. If there is general agreement on the use of a name (as there often will be), that is usually a good sign of the name being the preferred term in English.
• Geographic name servers. Check geographic name servers such as the NGIA GNS server at http://gnswww.nga.mil/geonames/GNS/index.jsp .
• Scientific nomenclature. Check usage by international bodies like CIPM, IUPAP, IUPAC, and other scientific bodies concerned with nomenclature; consider also the national standards agencies NIST and NPL. Consult style guides of scientific journals.

end of copied part

That pretty much lays down the way we should proceed. Find out how the conflict/war is called by international organisations, by other reference works, by major endlish media and use google, where wikipedia is to be excluded. --Xeeron (talk) 12:45, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

With regard to international organisations, I looked up up the most recent press statements of UN, NATO and OSCE. It should be noted that the UN statement is from the security council, where Russia is a veto wielding member and that NATO has been accused of taking the side of Georgia.

• UN uses "Georgia crisis" and "Situation in Georgia" (http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2008/sc9456.doc.htm)
• NATO uses "Conflict in Georgia" (http://www.nato.int/docu/pr/2008/p08-114e.html)
• OSCE uses "Conflict in Georgia" as well (http://www.osce.org/item/33350.html) --Xeeron (talk) 13:14, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Google delivers:

• "War in Georgia" - 892.000 hits (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=War+in+Georgia&as_oq=&as_eq=Wikipedia&num=10&lr=lang_en&as_filetype=&ft=i&as_sitesearch=&as_qdr=all&as_rights=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=images)
• "South Ossetia war" - 63.400 hits (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=South+Ossetia+war&as_oq=&as_eq=Wikipedia&num=10&lr=lang_en&as_filetype=&ft=i&as_sitesearch=&as_qdr=all&as_rights=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=images)
• "Russia-Georgia war" - 215.000 hits (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=Russia-Georgia+war&as_oq=&as_eq=Wikipedia&num=10&lr=lang_en&as_filetype=&ft=i&as_sitesearch=&as_qdr=all&as_rights=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=images)
• "Georgia-Russia war" - 90.400 hits (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=Georgia-Russia+war&as_oq=&as_eq=Wikipedia&num=10&lr=lang_en&as_filetype=&ft=i&as_sitesearch=&as_qdr=all&as_rights=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=images)
• "Georgia crisis" -599.000 hits (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=Georgia+crisis&as_oq=&as_eq=Wikipedia&num=10&lr=lang_en&as_filetype=&ft=i&as_sitesearch=&as_qdr=all&as_rights=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=images)
• "Conflict in Georgia" - 444.000 hits (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=Conflict+in+Georgia&as_oq=&as_eq=Wikipedia&num=10&lr=lang_en&as_filetype=&ft=i&as_sitesearch=&as_qdr=all&as_rights=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=images)
• "Situation in Georgia" - 797.000 hits (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=Situation+in+Georgia&as_oq=&as_eq=Wikipedia&num=10&lr=lang_en&as_filetype=&ft=i&as_sitesearch=&as_qdr=all&as_rights=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=images) --Xeeron (talk) 13:21, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Latest BBC and CNN reports:

• BBC uses "Georgia conflict" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7646422.stm)
• CNN uses "[Moscow's] August war with Georgia" (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/10/01/georgia.monitors.russia.ap/index.html) --Xeeron (talk) 13:36, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

ROFL! Xeeron - earlier I've stated that "Georgia + War" brings more hits, because the State of Georgia was involved in the US Civil War - which is by far the best documented war, and has a lot of hits! "Carolina + war" gets 67.8 million hits. In addition Georgia was a name of some state in England or another dependency thereof, that's also had wars. And "Georgia + War" also refers to pre-19th century wars too! So Google test here is invalid. Also, please note this "with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity" - which is what we have. It's the first link, finding it is easy and second nature. This article's name, in no way shape or form violates the Wikipedia naming conventions. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 14:52, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Once again if you search for "War in Georgia" you will get the hits like Xeeron states above, and there are no hits for Georgia in America when you search exactly like that. And once again search Google News and the difference is even bigger. And there you surely don't get any news about the American Civil war. Närking (talk) 15:46, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

HistoricWarrior007, do you understand the difference between searching for "Georgia" + "in" + "War" and searching for "War in Georgia" on Google? Just check the entries that show up, they are predominantly about this war, not the american civil war. --Xeeron (talk) 16:02, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Search for "War in Georgia" -Wikipedia -russia reveals 177k hits precisely for the War in American Georgia. (Igny (talk) 17:49, 4 October 2008 (UTC))

And 523000 hits do not even mention Ossetia, and similarly 400k+ hits do not mention Saakashvili or Putin. That probably means that war in Georgia is too generic a phrase. (Igny (talk) 17:58, 4 October 2008 (UTC))

At last, the real talk. I appreciate you, Xeeron, engaging into what i hope to be productive conversation, which will lead us to some agreement. I don't want to shift your attention from HistoricWarrior007's argument above, but i'd like to present you some of my own.

"Wikipedia:Naming conventions is a wikipedia policy (not a guideline). Wikipedia:Naming conflict is more specific, but not a policy" Yeah, i screwed that. I just quoted without checking first, i admit. But while Wikipedia:Naming conventions policy, indeed, supports your point to some extent, it also states in the first section, that

"This policy should be interpreted using other policies and not in isolation. In particular editors should familiarise themselves with the three content policies Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view."

I see, you didn't comment this one of my selected quotes, which i believe to come from WP:NPOV:

"(c) First priority place in article naming is held not by verifiability and popular usage, but by neutrality... Concerns related to... non-neutral fact selection and wording, and advancing a personal view, are not addressed even slightly by asserting that the matter is verifiable and cited."

I hope, you will agree with me, that the most important thing for wikipedia is to remain neutral. At least WP:NPOV says

"In these types of disputes, it is important to note that verifiability lives alongside neutrality, it does not override it... Verifiability is only one content criterion. Neutral point of view is a core policy of Wikipedia, mandatory, non-negotiable, and to be followed in all articles."

What i'm trying to tell, is that writers of WP:NAMECON hadn't anticipated such a geopolitical event, after which the neutrality of "major media outlets", like CNN and BBC, will be disputed on greater scale, than petty allegiations of adherence to some inner-political wing, or any other accusations, in which only local folk gets interested.

If, every time, when we need a clarifications on something, concerning Russia, we will go for them to "international organizations" like NATO, then we will be better off with closing wikipedia, and spending the rest of our life tending our private gardens, rather than wikipedia articles. (I think, it's obvious, why).

I hope you see, why i think, that this "Identification of common names using external references" guideline doesn't work in our case. It comes as no wonder, that most common usage in English follows BBC and CNN, but its "commonness" does not amend the fact, that it's not neutral(for the reasons, i've already stated in my previous post). So, when you quote from WP:NAME

"Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity"

I get obliged to point out, that it's "generally", not "compulsively, to the point of WP:NPOV ignorance". And, the very same WP:NAME in its in "Controversial Names" section states

"The purpose of an article's title is to enable that article to be found by interested readers, and nothing more."

So here is the question: why put such undue weight into google hits, when our article can already be found on the very first page of any google search, you can possibly imagine? Why these renames with questionable advantages for google hits, and other assessments of common usage, are continued to be proposed, despite quite founded POV accusations? Why it's all happening, when i've collected and presented many arguments for current title being NPOV, descriptive, unambiguous, and abiding by historical and wikipedia naming conventions? I hope, you will answer me, Xeeron. 217.8.236.200 (talk) 18:07, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Just to make it clear. Your statement "our article can already be found on the very first page of any google search" is not true. Try to search War in Georgia and you will see it turns up first on page 5. Interestingly pravda.ru does show up on page 4. So my question is why make such an effort on keeping this name of the article? And by the way the other day the EU observers began a Georgia mission and not a South Ossetia mission. Närking (talk) 18:35, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

217.8.236.200 (I'll assume you are also 217.8.236.185, it would be good if you could register a username), I could not find the quote starting with "(c)" in WP:NPOV, please point me to its exact location.

You are correct in stating that WP:NAME is to be used together with Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. However it is clear from the policy where the emphasis is: The summary as well as the first section state that "Article naming should be easily recognizable by English speakers". Not only google hits, but about any possible measure suggested points out that normal English speakers do not use "South Ossetian war" for the event described here, therefore the current title does not fulfill the main demand of the policy.

You remain adamant that only "South Ossetian war" is NPOV. That is not an opinion I can share. While your personal conclusions point that way, it is simply not backed up by other sources. Not only the american yellow press, but also media with a rock solid tradition of non-bias like the BBC do not use "South Ossetian war". You can easily check that even Chinese media or Al Jazeera (definitely not sources that can be accused of being western stooges), do not use "South Ossetian war". Finally, even the UN security council does not use "South Ossetian war". Russia is a veto wielding power there! They did not prevent the usage of "conflict in georgia" (It is interesting to see that the UN security council press releases never speak of "war", using "conflict" or "situation" instead, no doubt because Russia objected to "war"). So to sum up: You allege that only "South Ossetian war" is NPOV, but everyone disagrees. Western media, chinese media, arab media, even the UN security council and by implication the russian diplomats use a different wording. --Xeeron (talk) 19:02, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Can you prove to me that South Ossetian War 2008 is POV? We disagree on whether 2008 Georgia War is POV or not, but we all agree that 2008 South Ossetia War is NPOV. It does NOT imply that South Ossetia is an independent region or a part of Georgia. As for English speakers not using South Ossetia War - so Jon Stewart is NOT an English speaker? As for the UN - see this link: "http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2008/sc9419.doc.htm" They call it "South Ossetian Conflict" - and how's war not a conflict again? That's un.org/news/press - it's pretty damn official, and the war has already expanded to the Kodori Gorge, so congratulations on another moot argument. Now approaching 50 pages of the "I want to be a good Propaganda boii let's change the title" discussion. Finally, as I've pointed out earlier, if one types in "War in Georgia Wiki" it's the second link. And it was the first link when I made that post, I know how to use Google, and history of this article shows that other editors did the same. As for your other point Narking - that's because they are being deployed to Georian BUFFER ZONES. Not to South Ossetia. And Narking - just to flip your question - why put such an effort into changing the title, when the rest of the article needs work? If you don't think South Ossetia War 2008 is NPOV Xeeron, I want to see your argument, here and now. I've had enough of this from you people, so I AM CALLING ON ALL "LET'S CHANGE THE NAME" EDITORS TO PROVE THAT 2008 SOUTH OSSETIA WAR IS POV. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 21:47, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

For your information the EU observers are deployed not only in the buffer zone close to South Ossetia but also in other areas in Georgia that's currently occupied by Russian troops, that's why it's a Georgian mission. Närking (talk) 21:58, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok, lets go through your points one by one: "As for English speakers not using South Ossetia war", whom are you speaking to? Me? Your local Straw man? I never claimed that English speakers don't use it. In fact I linked Google to show that about 63 thousand websites use it. Just happens that is less than one tenths of the amount of use of other terms.

The UN link you cited is from the stage of the war when the UN did not actually discuss the fighting in Abkhazia. Which you would know if you read the text since it talks about "military build-up on the Abkhaz side", not actual fighting. You'll notice that press releases from later on call it conflict in georgia. Now that your arguements here have evaporated in light of the evidence, let me come back to the main point (and let me kindly ignore your repeated question about proofing your the POV, since you ignored my answer to that very question the last time you asked it): Articles should be named according to what english speakers commonly use. There is an more common English name that is so NPOV that even the Russians use it, except you refuse to see that point. --Xeeron (talk) 22:37, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

"I AM CALLING ON ALL "LET'S CHANGE THE NAME" EDITORS TO PROVE THAT 2008 SOUTH OSSETIA WAR IS POV". That's impossible to prove, HistoricWarrior007, and absence of proof is not proof of absence. The point is that "South Ossetia War" has hardly any reliable sources. This name was used on this wiki ages ago, before the conflict expanded beyond Ossetia. You can't just make up a name for a conflict which you personally find "more neutral", because that comes down to WP:OR. If that's the case, then articles on war pages would have constant name disputes. No we need to go by what's used most amongst analysts and historians and academics and independent media etc. etc. If several names are used, the most populair one should be picked, and the rest can follow up in the lead article. For example, this article would be titled "War in Georgia (2008)" and start with "The War in Georgia, also known as the Russian-Georgian War or the South Ossetia War was an armed conflict between...". Grey Fox (talk) 23:10, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Narking - ok and that disproves my point how? I said that advisors are stationed in Georgia proper ("Buffer Zones" are UN controlled areas of Georgia proper), so it's a Georgian mission. You said that advisors are stationed in Georgia proper, so it's a Georgian mission. Well done! Xeeron, I get 2.87 million links when I google "South Ossetia War". That's English buddy. If only Xeeron, you read the title "SECURITY COUNCIL HOLDS THIRD EMERGENCY MEETING AS SOUTH OSSETIA CONFLICT INTENSIFIES, EXPANDS TO OTHER PARTS OF GEORGIA" South Ossetia Conflict (War) expands, as in already expanded, it says expands, NOT expanding, or about to expand, therefore, the UN knowingly named the war the [2008] South Ossetia War, KNOWING that it will expand. See how important reading the title, and getting the correct title is? My arguments haven't evaporated anywhere; South Ossetia is still location-based (my initial argument); it is still where over 90% of the fighting took place; it still has the most important battle (Tskhinvali); my arguments are still here buddy. And Xeeron, I have pointed to you countless times that might doesn't make right. Saying the majority says so, does NOT make it NPOV. If you would have lived in the South during the Civil Rights Movenment you'd realize that might doesn't make right, or NPOV for that matter. I've seen your majority view point and called it a farce many times. Grey Fox - I have proof for how the "2008 Georgia War" is biased; it is biased because it IMPLIES that South Ossetia was a De Facto part of Georgia - which as we all know is bullshit, because if a region is De Facto and De Jure part of a country - there is no war! My Russian colleagues may disagree, but Chechnya was not De Facto part of Russia in the 1990's, it was De Jure. And it was called the Second Chechen War, not the Russian War 1999-2006. So in other words Mr. Grey Fox, and the other two of you, you have FAILED to show my how 2008 South Ossetia War is NPOV, but I HAVE shown you, and cited an example of how 2008 Georgia War would be incorrect and biased. Therefore the title stays, case closed. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 23:33, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I urge you to turn down your tone, there's no need for the constant use of capitalised letters to make a point. Also if you get 2.87 search results when you google "south ossetia war" then you forget to apply quotations, which are essential. You argument that 90% of the fighting took place in South Ossetia is WP:OR because it's only based on your personal estimation. It's disputed because georgian casualty figures for example give much higher casualties in Georgia than in South Ossetia, with victims fallen after the Russian bombardments. As for your argument that "Georgia War" is biased, there's no proof whatsoever. War In Georgia doesn't imply at all that South Ossetia was a de facto part of Georgia, but simply that it was a de jure part of Georgia. The comparison with Chechnya is wrong, because the chechen wars weren't fought between Russia and another country such as Georgia, but with just Chechnya. South ossetia War and War in Abkhazia are already used for the armed conflicts from decades ago. This conflict is different however, because it was mostly between Russia and Georgia. Grey Fox (talk) 00:08, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

The reason I use caps is because I had to make the exact same point for the THIRD TIME IN ONE WEEK. Also, when you call it the "War in Georgia", that is POV, because it does imply that South Ossetia is De Facto AND De Jure part of Georgia. As for no other nationalities participating in the Second Chechen War, I highly doubt that considering that I've read articles about it, written by the actual people who fought there (in Russian) who describe the armament and the composition of too many "freedom fighters" or "insurgents" as non-Chechens, and in addition, the Chechens did get aid from Georgia in fighting their war against Russia. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 04:42, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Three weeks? I've been doing it even longer. The neutrality of this article is largely disputed and if every small change needs months of debate it will never change. You say that "war in georgia" implies that South Ossetia is a de facto part of Georgia but that's simply not true. Moreover it's absolutely absurd to just call it South Ossetia War when the war was also fought on Abkhazian and Georgian proper. As for Chechnya, yes it's true that there were and still are foreigners fighting there, but this is a small number especially compared to the indegenous people. They did get aid from Georgia at times. The point however is that the war is still largely fought between the Russian army, and caucasian rebels, whereas this conflict was fought mainly between the Russian army and the Georgian army. Grey Fox (talk) 12:15, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

"Three weeks? I've been doing it even longer." I've been participating in that discussion from the very creation of the article, but HistoricWarrior007 was talking not about "three weeks", but about "third time in ONE week". That's different points.

"if every small change needs months of debate it will never change" Article title in our case is not just "every small change".

"Moreover it's absolutely absurd to just call it South Ossetia War when the war was also fought on Abkhazian and Georgian proper." Here i refer you to the point you seem to haven't noticed:

"Conflicts are commonly named after the region the conflict is over, not just an overarcing term to describe all regions involved. Both the Iraq War and the War in Afghanistan are named so despite involving actions and operations outside of the territorial boundaries of those countries."

You said again, that "this conflict was fought mainly between the Russian army and the Georgian army." For explanation, why i think this can't be an argument in renaming discussion, i refer you to my post below. 212.192.164.14 (talk) 07:02, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

I propose we all take an extended hiatus concerning the name of the article, then come back and decide once the outside world has made a decision on the official name. Say, three to six months? DerekMBarnes (talk) 02:35, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I concur! HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 04:42, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Seconded. 212.192.164.14 (talk) 09:24, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

No thanks. How about we change it to War in Georgia, and then let it rest for "six months"? Grey Fox (talk) 12:15, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Which, funny enough, would result in the name that you argued for all along to stick in place. Quite an obvious ploy. However, you are right insofar that I am getting tired of explaining the same stuff ("South Ossetia war" search is not equal to "South" + "Ossetia" + "war" search. Or the fact that the UN changed the name they use to Conflict in Georgia) again and again, only to be ignored and the same wrong facts comming up once more. This needs an wider audience. --Xeeron (talk) 09:22, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

3-2 so far on giving it a rest (for 3-6 months) with the status quo. Is your guys' plan to sipmly be superbly annoying until we tire of it and get the name changed? Because you seem to be absolutely inept at proving that "2008 South Ossetia War" is POV. And Xeeron, South Ossetia War in terms of searching IS equal to South + Ossetia + War, it's basic search engine principles. How about we not parrot the CNN/Fox News biased line? Can we do that, or is it might makes right on Wikipedia? HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 14:47, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

At lot of times, one has to deal with areas of grey in wikipedia. Fortunately, not here. It is NOT equal in terms of searching, as anyone can find out within seconds by typing the 2 lines I wrote into google. I invite you to inform yourself about the basic workings of a search engine by copying the following two lines into google and hitting search:

"South Ossetia War"

"South" + "Ossetia" + "War"

--Xeeron (talk) 18:09, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

"Which, funny enough, would result in the name that you argued for all along to stick in place. Quite an obvious ploy." I opted for that, just to have some rest, and i did that after you alleged the ploy. It all was so tiresome, that someone here said, he will write a novel about this renaming discussion, and, frankly, i will be one of his grateful readers. It's just i still think, that arguments for keeping current title are more than reasonable, so current title will hold, whether we will argue about it, or not.

For starters, Narking said "Just to make it clear. Your statement "our article can already be found on the very first page of any google search" is not true." Just to make it clear. As i said it to you earlier, even if you name it "War in Georgia", it "will drown ... in plenty of other pages and wikipedia articles about other numerous events, which qualify as "War in Georgia"". "Any search", means any reasonable search, Narking. If you'd really cared that much about our article to be easily found, you'd rather focused on promoting etymology section, because it's contents of the page, not its title, what Google search engine appreciates more.

Xeeron, you asked: "I could not find the quote starting with "(c)" in WP:NPOV, please point me to its exact location." That quote was from my older post. First part of it "First priority place in article naming is held not by verifiability and popular usage, but by neutrality..." was my interpretation of last part "Concerns related to... non-neutral fact selection and wording, and advancing a personal view, are not addressed even slightly by asserting that the matter is verifiable and cited.", which can be found in WP:NPOV#Neutrality_And_verifiability.

You say "However it is clear from the policy where the emphasis is: The summary as well as the first section state that "Article naming should be easily recognizable by English speakers"", but i wouldn't be so sure about where exactly between recognizability and neutrality emphasis lays. WP:NPOV#Article_naming states:

"Sometimes the article title itself may be a source of contention and polarization. This is especially true for descriptive titles that suggest a viewpoint either "for" or "against" any given issue. A neutral article title is very important because it ensures that the article topic is placed in the proper context. Therefore, encyclopedic article titles are expected to exhibit the highest degree of neutrality."

And yes, name should be recognizable by English speakers, but WP:POV#English_language says

"Also be careful to avoid an English-speaking Point of View" with the example of "Accounts of conflicts and their outcomes providing the interpretation of the side most English-speaking nations supported".

You see, Xeeron, every Google count or other "any possible measure" of gathering English usage statistics you provide in support of "Russian-Georgian war", or any other title, which forgets to mention that it all was about South Ossetia, is the result of this very "interpretation of the side most English-speaking nations supported". Will you argue that?

"You remain adamant that only "South Ossetian war" is NPOV. That is not an opinion I can share. While your personal conclusions point that way, it is simply not backed up by other sources. Not only the american yellow press, but also media with a rock solid tradition of non-bias like the BBC do not use "South Ossetian war"." You see, Xeeron, i don't want to start "my media is better than yours" contest, because we both know about Russia accusations of western media being non-neutral, and i hope you'll agree with me, that no "rock solid tradition of non-bias" you presume, can be the rock solid proof it was followed this time. The dispute exists, so it's as incorrect for you to use "BBC is neutral" assumption, as for me to base my arguments on the opposite.

"You can easily check that even Chinese media or Al Jazeera (definitely not sources that can be accused of being western stooges), do not use "South Ossetian war"." I've noticed that many wikipedia editors brought up that argument. And thus, they all have exhibited one small logical fallacy. News agency don't have to be "western stooge", to refer to something using the same terms as in western press. And country don't have to be "western stooge", to side with the west on the occasion, in pursue of its own unknown national interests, which ultimately may or may not contradict those of the west.

"Finally, even the UN security council does not use "South Ossetian war". Russia is a veto wielding power there! They did not prevent the usage of "conflict in georgia" (It is interesting to see that the UN security council press releases never speak of "war", using "conflict" or "situation" instead, no doubt because Russia objected to "war"). If Russia hadn't vetoed the usage of the word "Georgia", it's because talks, held in UN council, were concerning Georgia, not only South Ossetia. And, frankly, i would be surprised to see Russia brandishing with its veto for a weeks, before UN will be left no choice in names but something like "Conflict in Georgia and South Ossetia"(so nobody forgets about SO), or "Georgian invasion of South Ossetia"(additionally states who is to blame).

"So to sum up: You allege that only "South Ossetian war" is NPOV, but everyone disagrees. Western media, chinese media, arab media, even the UN security council and by implication the russian diplomats use a different wording." So to sum it up, i don't quite understand, what all of the presented facts have to do with POVness of SOW title, or NPOVness of RGW title. I think, you've assumed incorrect implications here. If some media agencies, countries, or even international security councils don't use some name like SOW, that doesn't mean it's POV. And if they got used to refer to it with some name like "Conflict in Georgia", that does not mean it's NPOV. You see, all these medias and councils aren't obliged to use name free of negative connotations, especially if, from layman's point of view, they are too subtle to think about. But we, wikipedia editors, should put our best effort in naming our article as neutrally, as possible, so if something is satisfactory for medias and diplomats, that doesn't automatically makes it appropriate for wikipedia article title. The possibility of any of them having some discussion about what name to prefer for the sake of neutrality and deciding in favor of some name, can not be used as an excuse for us not holding our own discussion, or as an argument for underestimating opposition to that name. So, i really don't understand why you've brought this up.

You said in your argument with HistoricWarrior007, that "There is an more common English name that is so NPOV that even the Russians use it" I have to disagree with you. It was already explained here, why russians see it as POV. You see, if we(russians) are sometimes have to use it, it's because, in russian language, titles like "Operation For Enforcing Peace", "Peacekeeping operation in South Ossetia", and "Georgian-Ossetian conflict", sound even longer than they are in English, so "War in Georgia" comes here as relief. It's not because we think it's NPOV, i assure you.

Grey Fox said "georgian casualty figures for example give much higher casualties in Georgia than in South Ossetia, with victims fallen after the Russian bombardments" I've just looked on the infobox, and, as far as i can see, it's the other way round. Please, explain, what have you meant.

Also Grey Fox said "This conflict is different however, because it was mostly between Russia and Georgia." Such approach to naming wikipedia articles was disproved several times with very simple counter-examples like 2003 Iraq war being chosen for article name, not US-Iraq war, despite "it was mostly between" US and Iraq.

And, for our discussion to someday see its end, i want us to agree on something. Xeeron, do you agree, that "2008 South Ossetia war" is NPOV? 212.192.164.14 (talk) 14:49, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Interesting to see that the unkown IP editor change arguments when proved being wrong. The same IP has also called the Russian invasion in Georgia "Russian Peacekeeping operation in South Ossetia" [1]. Is that NPOV that you seem to care so much about? Närking (talk) 15:44, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Interesting to see that you neither change your arguments when proved wrong, nor admit it. Changing arguments, when old ones were proved wrong, not simply endlessly repeating them, has something to do with reaching consensus, don't you think? And attacking editors on the front beyond their arguments surely has nothing to do with it, and is rather unpleasant personal trait of yours, won't you agree? And yeah, i did that edit you mentioned. But, as you also pointed out, the previous version of the phrase was "Russian war in Georgia". Such POVed namings on peripheral articles no one's properly watching are more than common. And this one, when we haven't even reached consensus on how to call our own article, was just the very last straw for me. I was angered beyond reason when i was doing that edit, and I'm really sorry about doing it, but that neither excuses me, nor makes it NPOV, i admit it. I urge someone to change it to something NPOV. But, please, choose not from somewhere among the lines of "Russian invasion in Georgia", i ask you. 212.192.164.14 (talk) 05:59, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

My point is that many of you here hide behind NPOV to push your own strong POV. And finally "War in Georgia" is not my personal favourite to name this war or conflict. I probably would go for "Russia-Georgia war" or something like that since it tells more about the war. But it's not I or anyone else here at Wikipedia who choose how this war should be named. As stated many times above it's clearly named "War in Georgia". I might think that the Russian name of the Winter War would be a better name, but that's not something I can change even though "Soviet-Finland War" probably would tell more about the war. Närking (talk) 06:32, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

"My point is that many of you here hide behind NPOV to push your own strong POV." Yes, that's exactly what i've thought you're pointing out, when i was writing my previous post. But, i neither hide my POV, nor deny it's strongness. And what about you? My insistence, is, at least, understandable. We're talking here about my country after all. And what is the reason for your persistence? Because you so enormously care about infinitesimal, if any, advantage in google hits our article will experience if renamed? Seriously, don't expect me to believe that. Personally, i think that "many of you here hide behind NPOV to push your own strong POV" applies to you even more, than it is to me. But i keep such thoughts to myself, despite them occuring being quite expectable if one is to read your old posts, because they have nothing to do with your arguments being reasonable or not. Everybody has a POV. Everybody edits wikipedia for some personal reasons. Whatever these reasons are, it's not an excuse for not taking any arguments seriously, as long as they're valid, and we're being polite. I hope, i've been talking to you and everybody else here with all due respect and politeness, and my arguments were reasonable enough. At least they were not like "back off from my title, you POVed capitalist pigs(or whatever you think brainwashed russians think about you)". I've been respecting you and seriously contemplating all of your arguments, and i expect from you the same. As far as i understood your post, you were implicating, that, if i have a POV, then my arguments somehow don't have any value. That's what i've meant by you're "attacking editors on the front beyond their arguments", and that's what i think you're continuing to do, because - i'm refreshing Special Battalions Vostok and Zapad page now, aaaaand... - yes, despite you caring so much about my POVed edit, and me, asking to fix it, you didn't. 212.192.164.14 (talk) 10:01, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

"But it's not I or anyone else here at Wikipedia who choose how this war should be named." Yes, let it be decided by scientific publications. 212.192.164.14 (talk) 10:01, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

If you had read what I had written you would have seen that I don't think "War in Georgia" is the best name either, but since it's now known as that I don't see why Wikipedia should stick with "South Ossetia war". I don't have any personal motives for this like you apparently have. I'm neither Georgian or Russian. I would say one big problem with this article is the many one subject editors. And by the way the first published book about the war in Sweden name it "rysk-georgiska kriget" (Russian-Georgian War). Närking (talk) 19:23, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

"I don't think "War in Georgia" is the best name either, but since it's now known as that I don't see why Wikipedia should stick with "South Ossetia war"" Er... maybe this have something to do with, i dunno... "War in Georgia" being POV, and "South Ossetia war" being NPOV? Forgive me my irony, i understand that, for now, those, who share this opinion of mine, are greatly outnumbered here, but, after i spent here two weeks carefully quoting each and everyone's arguments, complementing them with my opposing comments supported by quotes from wikipedia policy, i would have thought you'll at least "see" something. But the whole talk i got looked like that:

Me: "citeA1" bla-bla, wikicite1, counter-argument1... "citeA13" bla-bla-bla, wikicite13, counter-argument13.

Someone: War in Georgia is popular. "Wikipedia should... generally RECOGNIZABLE by Englishmen ... battles beyond borders of SO..." (carefully avoiding to counter any of my arguments on one-by-one basis)

Me: "citeB1" bla-bla-bla-bla, counter-argument14... "citeB45" bla-bla-bla-bla-bla, counter-argument58. "Wikipedia should... GENERALLY recognizable by Englishmen ... not an overarcing term ..."

Someone else: But War in Georgia is popular. "Wikipedia should... generally RECOGNIZABLE by Englishmen ... battles beyond borders of SO..."

Me: (at loss of words because nobody seems to hear me)

I, again, sincerely apologize for my irony, it's just getting hard for me to resist it. Honestly, if someone needs "stopping the discussion now" as "only a round about way of keeping their prefered title" like Xeeron said below, then it's not me. You see, I haven't ran out of arguments, and they rely on more than one wikipedia policy too. And, if no one, maybe with the exception of Xeeron, didn't even try to thoroughly counter them, or even notice them(like Devil's Advocate certainly failed to do for a third time in a row), it's not my fault. Also i wanna skip commenting about you having no "apparent personal interests". I don't know, what kind of personal interests you think i have, but they're nothing more, than keeping article title, which will let the reader to form his own opinion(not pre-set him to take any russian statements with "informed scepticism", as those titles you propose do(i know i know, you're not proposing, you're just seeing no reason why, etc)). You, again, just failed to understand, that presence or absence of "personal interests", as long as it don't result in conflict with wikipedia goal, doesn't matter neither for wikipedia, nor for me. And life seemingly haven't taught you a lesson, that it's not whether you're "Georgian or Russian" or someone else determines you're strongly POVed or not.

And about "I would say one big problem with this article is the many one subject editors." If those tiny scraps, which technically can be called my free time, are completely consumed by this discussion, and i have no time left to do something more productive on wikipedia, that doesn't make me a "one subject editor". And, talking about "one subject editors", my POVed edit on Special Battalions Vostok and Zapad page is still unfixed, despite me asking to do it. Twice. Yes, i'll never let you forget about that, like you didn't let me forget about my POVed edit instead of silently fixing it and living happily ever after. :) Sincerely yours, 212.192.164.14 writing from 194.226.182.40 (talk) 06:29, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

"War in Georgia" is not POV by implying Abkhazia and South Ossetia are what they are, separatists. That's what they are, entities trying to separate from Georgia. The problem with this title is it doesn't reflect the scope of the conflict period. There was a naval battle in Georgian waters, air strikes all over Georgia, troop movements into undisputed Georgian territory, land seizures by Abkhazia, the battle in the Kodori Gorge. The fact the Georgians ran away so there was no serious battle in Gori, Senaki, or Poti doesn't change the fact there were military actions in those areas. This was clearly not just about retaking South Ossetia for either side and obviously was more broad. I think right now the neutral way to address this broad scope and the way most favored is "War in Georgia" hence why I'm saying it should be renamed to this. Talk of waiting until a name is decide on is nonsense as it's already clear what name has been decided on. Russian sources call it a War in Georgia and none call it "South Ossetia War" so why is Wikipedia doing this? Wikipedia should go with what English users commonly call it, calling this a war in Georgia is quite neutral as this involved a conflict between Georgia and separatists wishing to secede from Georgia. Russia came on the side of those separatists and it was clear Russia's government saw them as separatists within Georgia. In general the fact they were separatists means it can be considered to have taken within Georgia between Georgian central government forces and the separatist entities with Russian backing.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 06:00, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

By the same way we can say that "War in Georgia" is POV by implying Abkhazia and South Ossetia are separatists, because this name doesn’t implying that Georgia themselves is separatist with unclear separation from USSR. And this unclear separation is the source of both Georgian-Ossetian and Georgian-Abkhazian conflicts, whose are the sources of both Georgian Civil War in 1980-1990th years and of this war too, because this war was an attempt of the Georgian government to gain revenge for that Georgian Civil War. "War in Georgia" also doesn’t implying that the control over the small part of the Kodori Gorge (which is the only part of this gorge that was controlled by Georgian government, not the whole gorge) has been taken by Georgia in 2006, and for ten or more years neither Abkhazia nor Georgia really controlled it.

So, the name "War in Georgia" doesn’t implying that the sources of this war are Georgian-Ossetian and Georgian-Abkhazian conflicts, and also the Georgian Civil War. And this name also doesn’t implying that this war was the Russian intervention in the New Georgian Civil War similarly to Allied Intervention in the Russian Civil War in 1918-1922. (Pubkjre (talk) 08:48, 4 October 2008 (UTC))

I wrote: "I propose we all take an extended hiatus concerning the name of the article, then come back and decide once the outside world has made a decision on the official name. Say, three to six months?"'

Xeeron replied: "Which, funny enough, would result in the name that you argued for all along to stick in place. Quite an obvious ploy. However, you are right insofar that I am getting tired of explaining the same stuff."

Actually, I don't have an opinion on the name. I just got sick of looking at all of you bickering over it. I figured we could just wait for the next edition of canonized paper-print encyclopedias to come out, and use whatever consensus they reached, saving us a lot of time and effort we could have spent on more important things.

But if you want to keep cycling through the same cruft over and over again to the point that we don't NEED to write a novel in order to publish a 300-page book...don't mind me.

As I honestly have nothing else I want to say about this, I hereby close my piece in this talk section. DerekMBarnes (talk) 06:00, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

I also think that "wait for the next edition of canonized paper-print encyclopedias to come out, and use whatever consensus they reached" currently is the best way. (Pubkjre (talk) 08:57, 4 October 2008 (UTC))

Derek - how dare you offer a sensible solution to their arguments. Narking still has trouble either reading or dating, because I suggested that we should go via post-WWII, because that's what's used in naming wars nowadays, and Narking then cited the Russo-Finnish War, which was in no way shape or form post WWII. But Derek's suggestion does make sense, and once again, I must concur as I refuse to argue against logic. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 06:40, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

I guess I have to explain it a little clearer so everyone will understand. By just mentioning Winter War my point was to show that it's not I or you who choose the name of a conflict. It's as clear as that. Närking (talk) 06:47, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Heh, ok fine, let me call your bluff: How about renaming the article now and then discussing again in 6 months, are you ok with that, HistoricWarrior007 and Pubkjre? --Xeeron (talk) 09:32, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Your argument could be turned against you like that: Heh, ok fine, let me call your bluff: we're renaming the article the way you want, an when we return again in 6 months with 2008 South Ossetia war inscribed on hardcopy of some encyclopedia, you will say something among the lines of "that's just one encyclopedia let's wait for more", if i show you russian encyclopedias and scientific articles, you'll say something like "this POVed russian-sponsored propaganda doesn't deserve the name of encyclopedia", and if western encyclopedias somehow will manage to abstain from pro-georgian stance, you will start repeating your old arguments of "RGW title is most widely used, folks, it's clearly unnecesary for us to rename" etc. Please, don't create an atmosphere of mutual distrust here, Xeeron. I've expected better from you. 212.192.164.14 (talk) 10:19, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

I am waiting for the answer from HistoricWarrior007 and Pubkjre. If they agree with my proposal, I'll apologize to them and concede that they indeed only wanted to end the discussion. If they do not, I'll stick to my point that stopping the discussion now is only a round about way of keeping their prefered title and this whole arguement is simply meant to distract from the issue discussed. --Xeeron (talk) 10:56, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

You want my answer?.. Good... But I’d like to tell a few words before...

I can say that the situation around South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Georgia looks like "The Mirror Of The Kosovo War". For example, Russians call that war as "1999 War in Yugoslavia", not "Kosovo War". This war is unofficially called as "Events in South Ossetia" or "Battles in South Ossetia" in Russia (officially it’s named something like "Peace Enforcing Operation"), but in Western countries it’s currently called "War in Georgia". The POV-depending mirror, isn’t it?

I agree that we really have naming problem. But I don’t think that the article must be renamed right now. Well, I agreed that it’s possible to make a trade-off and rename the article now and then discussing again in 6 months, but not to "War in Georgia" and some other popular names (all medias are biased, and "When everyone is dead the Great Game is finished. Not before" [Rudyard Kipling]...).

So, if the rename is required, the only way is to create a new temporary "synthetic" name and discuss it again in 6 months... (Pubkjre (talk) 13:01, 4 October 2008 (UTC))

Such as? The Greogian civil indepedence conflict of South Osssretia and Akbarsia featuring Russia intervasion (yes I have invented a new word)?[[Slatersteven (talk) 18:47, 4 October 2008 (UTC)]]

Not only indepedence, but ethnic conflict too: "The Georgian Civil War consisted of inter-ethnic and inter-national conflicts in the regions of South Ossetia (1988-1992) and Abkhazia (1992-1993)". In this war the Georgian government attempted to gain revenge for that war and to reincorporate South Ossetia and Abkhazia into Georgia... The main problem is that all events are much politicized now due to a "conflict of interests" between Russia and U.S. The "old good Great Game" came back, but with new players! (Pubkjre (talk) 20:43, 4 October 2008 (UTC))

Xeeron - the title you are proposing, I have proven them to be biased, time and again. You have FAILED to prove the current title to be biased. I cannot make it any clearer then that. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 20:51, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

If you actually bothered to read my last 2 posts, you would have noticed that I did not propose any specific title, so good job in proving it is biased. Since you have repeated that same accusation about 5 times now, I'll spare myself the typing of a 5th response and direct you some pages up, where I already replied to that. --Xeeron (talk) 23:51, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

It's not a matter of it being biased, the current title is completely inappropriate. This title was tacked on when the article was first created for fuck's sake. It's the title this was given when the war began. It's completely ridiculous that this title remains and it simply should be changed. The problem is a bunch of editors, many biased, jump in every time a name is proposed and attack the basis of the proposed name and completely ignore the fact this current title is completely inconsistent with any naming convention.

On the matter of POV, not everyone believes the Armenian Genocide was genocide, including the Turkish government, but we don't bow down to those few people who disagree. Not even Russia considered South Ossetia or Abkhazia independent during the war so it seems the only people who considered them being outside of Georgia were the Abkhaz and South Ossetians in those separatist areas. I don't see why their opinion should dictate what the title of this article should be for the entire world. This is a serious case of WP:FRINGE.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 07:26, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Devil's Advocate, South Ossetia and Abkhazia were De Facto Independent. This is a fact. The title, 2008 Georgia War implicitely contradicts this fact. Therefore it is biased. Narking - I'm glad the Swedes wrote a book on it before the dust cleared. More material for students to critique - i.e. why writing a book before the dust clears is a bad idea. I don't know when the dust will clear, I think it's in January, but right now there's so much we still don't know about the war. I still cannot find the damn proper ORBATs (as in what units participated).

Here's what I think is a proper Orbat (for me proper means really detailed)

1st Army (commander) Corps Alpha (commander) Division III (commander) 4th Regiment (commander) 1st Motorized Inf-Tank Brigade (Col XXX): 3 tanks and 12 men led by Sgt. XXX - 2 wounded, none killed) 2 btrs and 24 men led by Sgt. XXX - 1 killed, 3 wounded)

We don't have that kind of intel, nor do we have the types of tanks or BTRs, and both sides are to blame. We don't even know on what side of the tunnel the Russians were. So I think it's smart to wait until the dust clears, and we can get full intel on it. And NOT RENAME it a kazillion times till then. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 08:58, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

So are you suggesting we rename the article on the Armenian Genocide because not everyone agrees it was genocide? How about the Holocaust? Not everyone agrees on that. You're suggesting the views of a very small minority should dictate the title of this article. While that may seem fine and dandy here the same argument can be disastrous elsewhere and is why Wikipedia policy is clear that neutrality is about "significant" views not all. Of course Abkhazia and South Ossetia considered themselves independent, but no one else did. I imagine many of the West's opponents in the War on Terrorism don't consider themselves terrorists, but that doesn't mean that title should be rejected for POV reasons. The term "War in Georgia" has been used most widely and no significant source has called it South Ossetia War following the conflict. Also War in Georgia appropriately reflects the scope of the conflict. No part of this war happened outside of Georgia or Georgian waters, but plenty of it happened outside South Ossetia.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 10:21, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

So, nearly all russians(140 millions) who think that "Russian-Georgian War" title is blatant CNN/Fox News propaganda and horrible POV are "very small minority" now? And their view is not "significant"? Oh, i guess i know your next argument. It certainly will be in the mood of "I imagine many of the West's opponents in the War on Terrorism don't consider themselves terrorists, but that doesn't mean that title should be rejected for POV reasons." like "Russians don't consider themselves attackers of Georgia, let alone invaders, but that does not mean that title should be rejected for POV reasons". Neat. One can hardly argue that. There's the Russians and there's the Terrorists, is there any difference, really? 212.192.164.14 (talk) 11:33, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

You know the line "screenshot or it didn't happen"? Wikipedia is the same: Bring a source or it is simply your personal opinion. You are in no position to speak for 140 million others. --Xeeron (talk) 14:39, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Seems like some editors here think this is Russian Wikipedia. This is English Wikipedia so articles won't have Russian names like "Soviet-Finnish War" but the name of the war that it is known as in the English speaking world (and in most other parts of the world), namely Winter War in that case. If this current war is known as "South Ossetia War" in Russia the article in Russian Wikipedia will be like that, but that can't change the fact the war is known as "War in Georgia" in the English speaking world (and in most other parts of the world). Närking (talk) 21:14, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

You know, your argument is so clearly biased there's no reason to even consider it in this discussion. Accusing CNN and Fox News of propaganda and making rather ridiculous claims about Russia just suggests you're just a pro-Russian anonymous IP user. I suggested Russia-Georgia War because I though it was most appropriate at the time, but now it is clear the primary name is "War in Georgia" and as such that should be the title of this article on the English-speaking Wikipedia.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 02:18, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Not at all. Most of other wikis about this war refer to South Ossetia in the title. In any way, war in Georgia is too generic a name. It is akin to calling, say, Napoleonic Wars as wars in Europe. Clearly a generic name would win any popularity contest when compared to a more specific name. (Igny (talk) 00:30, 7 October 2008 (UTC))

What Wikipedia says in another language is not a precedent for what the English-speaking Wikipedia says. In fact, most often it's the other way around and Wikipedia in other languages adopts the name used in the English version. None should really use the another language version, but in the end it is usually the English version that is used.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 02:18, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

• That was 'Russian-Georgian war. There were 120 thousand+ Google hits for combination "Russian-Georgian war" (see here), and only 12 thousand for "2008 South Ossetia war". Even many Russian commentators consider this to be Russian-Georgian war. For example, Yulia Latynina tells this (an approximate translation): "I want to emphasize: this is Russian-Georgian war. The strike [by Russia] was conducted from two fronts: the Abkhazian and the South Ossetian fronts; approximately 25,000 Russian Army serviceman have been involved and several hundred tanks; rocket strikes have been conducted, and Russian strategic aviation completed sorties..." see here. Biophys (talk) 04:13, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough - we should rename it "South Ossetian War", that gets over 3 million hits on Google. Adding 2008 at the end gets 2.7 million. So either "South Ossetian War" or "South Ossetian War 2008" so we can add an "n" to South Ossetia and move 2008 to the back, that way we get more Google Hits! Yippee. And since you cite Yulia Latynina, let's get a qoute from this "unbiased" journalist: "Yulia Latynina is known for her sharp and polemic statements. She claimed that Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, French President Jacques Chirac, Chancellor of Germany Gerhard Schröder, and U.S. President George W. Bush have all been successfully "recruited" by Vladimir Putin to serve his political objectives.[1] She also alleged that "President Putin will secure a third term simply because this is the authorities' logic. Power in Russia is in essence authoritarian, and there are no other ways to hand over power: control must be maintained over it."[2]" HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 09:20, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I guess you still haven't learned how to use Google although several other editors have explained it above. "South Ossetian War" only gets 18.500 hits while "War in Georgia" gets 790.000 hits and "Russian-Georgian War" 127.000 hits. Närking (talk) 11:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

And "Russia-Georgia War" 314.000. That's probably the best title. Grey Fox (talk) 12:37, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Apparently you haven't learned either. "war in Georgia" -russia gives 170k hits about the american civil war. "war in Georgia" russia ossetia -wikipedia gives only 70k hits. (Hmm, I have repeated the search again 5 minutes later and Google produced 150k hits. What can I say, this statistics is not reliable) (Igny (talk) 13:24, 7 October 2008 (UTC))

And aparently you haven't read what I have written before about this. To avoid any possible American Civil War hit you can also search Google News and then you sure will see the difference even clearer. "War in Georgia" gets 2116, "Russia-Georgia War" gets 738, "Russian-Georgian War" gets 151 hits, "South Ossetian war" gets 58 and "South Ossetia war" get 13 hits. Can it be clearer? Närking (talk) 15:44, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

So now you guys want to base every Wikipedia Title on Google Hits, regardless of whether it's POV or not? Hmm, where did those Russkies that produced the bots that crushed something in Estonia in 2007 go? I bet they can produce millions of Google hits all referreing to Georgia as Loserland. Does that then mean that we should change the title of Georgia? Seriously though, you arguing for a Wikipedia title to be changed based on Google hits from an NPOV version to a POV version is just plain ridiculous. Also Narking, why don't you add "August 2008" at the and see what you get. I mean if it's not referring to any other wars and to no pundits, you should have no trouble finding searches. Oh wait, there are none. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 07:08, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

In case you didn't know Google News search the news the latest month. And if you don't trust Google search you could perhaps also start to read the news yourself and see how this war is known (and I don't mean Russia Today or Pervy Kanal). Närking (talk) 10:56, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the name is out-dated, "2nd South Ossetian war" Or the " 08.08.08 Russian invasion of Georgia" would be better candidates.

75.179.183.114 (talk) 01:18, 9 October 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat

Narking - perhaps you didn't get my earlier point, which was that articles should be named on the basis of the most NPOV name, as the article is currently named, not on the basis of Google hits. Also, Jade Rat, or user 75.179, Russian forces were already in Georgia during the attack, at least the Peacekeepers, so it doesn't exaclty meet the definition of invasion. Also Russians are close to China, they would never have started a war just when the Chinese opened their Olympics. Russia isn't going to antagonize China for no reason, and waiting two weeks wouldn't have changed anything from Russia's perspective. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 04:17, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

War in Georgia is no more POV than American Civil War. Even though the latter involves a secessionist entity no one considers it biased to have the main title be American Civil War. That's because it is what this is called by most people. Not everyone believes the Armenian Genocide was genocide, but the majority of English users know it by that name and hence that name is used, also partly because it's not very controversial. Your argument about "War in Georgia" being POV is based solely on the idea that it's biased against South Ossetia and Abkhazia by implying they were part of Georgia, but at the time no country disputed whether they were independent or not. South Ossetia and Abkhazia were widely reported to be "celebrating independence" after recognition following the war. So it seems even the people of Abkhazia and South Ossetia didn't consider themselves truly independent until winning recognition. I see nothing controversial in calling this War in Georgia and I don't think many would. Wikipedia shouldn't cater to a vocal fringe, but go with the predominant views.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 06:52, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Somehow I suspected it beforehand, that if i get distracted by outer events, this discussion will reduce to one-sided google count citations, but i couldn't have imagined it will happen that fast. Guess i'm wasting precious time of my life here... but what the hell.

Xeeron, commenting on my post about "140 millions russians don't think they're invaders", said:

"You know the line "screenshot or it didn't happen"? Wikipedia is the same: Bring a source or it is simply your personal opinion. You are in no position to speak for 140 million others."

Well, a search on two semantic variations of "public protests against Georgian aggression in South Ossetia" on russian Google on its first page only gives me these (warning - they're in russian) pages: this, and this, and this, and this, and this, and this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, and this. I have more, but i got tired of copypasting their urls here. And that's only those of public protests, which managed to make their way into WWW, mind you. Majority of them were not mentioned beyond local newspapers with no WWW mirror. When i was searching on semantic variations of "public protests against Russian aggression in Georgia" on Google, results describing such events involving russians were nearly non-existent compared to above. Personally, i would have thought, that, being russian, speaking on the matter with russians, and living in a russian city, which, incidentally, contains more than one percent of the aforementioned 140 million russian population, enables me to quite reliably judge on what most russians' opinion is. But it seems, it went out of fashion here to assume good faith.

Narking (btw, is substitution of 'ä' with 'a' in references to you appropriate and non-insulting for you? it's just that reproducing 'ä' is hard with my keyboard, i have to find and copypaste it from the text, and that takes time), you said:

"Seems like some editors here think this is Russian Wikipedia... If this current war is known as "South Ossetia War" in Russia the article in Russian Wikipedia will be like that, but that can't change the fact the war is known as "War in Georgia" in the English speaking world (and in most other parts of the world)."

If by "some editors" you mean me, i urge you to state that specifically in the future. But, i think, you got my point wrong. My point wasn't that english wikipedia should name it's article as russians want or as it's named in Russian Wikipedia. The reason, i've brought up that "russians think so" argument for, was to disprove Devil's Advocate derogatory(my personal opinion), discriminative and false claim of "those, who think it was about South Ossetia and not about Georgia, constitute minority, their view is insignificant and we shouldn't listen to them, while thinking about how to name the article"(summary of my understanding of the point he expressed). I can only wonder, how possibly the view of any side of the conflict can be considered insignificant, especially in the context of determining article title neutrality? But let this remain on his conscience, and us return to the topic. You mentioned that "the war is known as War in Georgia in the English speaking world". For reason why this argument is not the decisive one, i refer you to one of my previous arguments with Xeeron, which, incidentally, you had commented with nothing, but a reference to my only POVed edit(which you still hadn't fixed). :)

{quote starts}

And yes, name should be recognizable by English speakers, but WP:POV#English_language says

"Also be careful to avoid an English-speaking Point of View" with the example of "Accounts of conflicts and their outcomes providing the interpretation of the side most English-speaking nations supported".

You see, Xeeron, every Google count or other "any possible measure" of gathering English usage statistics you provide in support of "Russian-Georgian war", or any other title, which forgets to mention that it all was about South Ossetia, is the result of this very "interpretation of the side most English-speaking nations supported". Will you argue that?

{quote ends} But the question stays.

It strikes me as funny, that the only time i got Devil's Advocate attention, it looked like that:

"You know, your argument is so clearly biased there's no reason to even consider it in this discussion. Accusing CNN and Fox News of propaganda and making rather ridiculous claims about Russia just suggests you're just a pro-Russian anonymous IP user."

I'm glad that, after three weeks of you making cameo appearances with pre-programmed statements, which said nothing new and countered nothing i said, you decided to notice me. If you had read me carefully, Advocate, you would be able to tell the subtle difference between accusing CNN/Fox News of propaganda and saying that many russians think these channels spouted propaganda. But of course, suspecting CNN for being biased is just so much more POVish, than impenetrable faith in its reliability (i'm holding out a Sarcasm Sign here). That's clearly a valid excuse for dismissing my argument (i'm still holding a Sarcasm Sign). And speaking of "rather ridiculous claims about Russia", if someone's claims about Russia were ridiculous here, they were not the ones of the nearly only one russian here. They were like "Russian Market fails because of the war", "Russians mostly use War in Georgia name, and they do that, because they think it's neutral", etc. After that comment of yours i am left wondering, what's a "clearly biased" argument of mine you've managed to spot, and in what way it was actually biased? Also, i advice you to read again WP:Civility and WP:Etiquette, especially the parts about judgemental tone, accusations of bias and how to resolve POV-related problems properly. (Yes, i need to reread that too)

Now, for "War in Georgia is no more POV than American Civil War". I've already explained to you, Devil's Advocate, why this comparison is invalid. Try reading my posts at occasion. And i might add, that if majority of people of America agreed to use some name, mostly because they don't care anymore, it's not an example for Ossetians, Abkhazs and Russians, because they care a lot.

Not everyone believes the Armenian Genocide was genocide, but the majority of English users know it by that name and hence that name is used, also partly because it's not very controversial. I'm actually smiled, when you said "not very controversial". Let aside Armenian Genocide, but do you really want to say "War in Georgia" and "Russian-Georgian War" are "not very controversial"? I'm just out of words. What i'm doing here, then? Obviously, i just have nothing else to do(Sarcasm Sign). But, probably, you should once again read WP:NPOVD, which says

"Note, however, that there is a strong inductive argument that, if a page is in an NPOV dispute, it probably is not neutral — or, at least, that the topic is a controversial one, and one should be wary of a possible slant or bias. The salient point is that one side — who cares enough to be making the point — thinks that the article says something that other people would want to disagree with."

The fact, that someone, who is, simultaneously,

1. russian
2. speaks english
3. gives a damn about what's written in english wikipedia on geopolitical topic

, or, in other words, someone of nearly extinct species, actually finds time to make an appearance and say something, despite being more than busy at the moment, should have said something about "non-controversialness" of proposed titles.

"South Ossetia and Abkhazia were widely reported to be "celebrating independence" after recognition following the war. So it seems even the people of Abkhazia and South Ossetia didn't consider themselves truly independent until winning recognition." Naturally, they were celebrating. After 15 years of unceasing struggle, they were, at last, officially recognized. They've got them an ally to rescue them at any time. No more living with fear of some twisted georgian nationalist making war upon them. You've made this point once already, and i've left with no choice but, once again, urge you to tell any ordinary Ossetian or Abkhazian guy, that they "didn't consider themselves independent" and see what happens. And what is actually that "true independence", you're talking about? Something that won't let you cast aside "War in Georgia" title POVness? I'm not sure, whether such thing exists, then.

"Wikipedia shouldn't cater to a vocal fringe, but go with the predominant views" What can i say... I can only repeat what someone had already said to you:

"Way to be selective Mr. Devil's Advocate, way to care for minority rights."

And if you are somehow referring to WP:FRINGE, Advocate, then point me to specific section. Otherwise, i'll take all of these "fringe" accusations as a personal insult. 212.192.164.14 (talk) 12:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

You try to say that "also be careful to avoid an English-speaking Point of View" phrase sounds like a PC version of "don’t be English-speaking chauvinist". Am I right? (Pubkjre (talk) 20:09, 10 October 2008 (UTC))

Sorry, Pubkjre, i can't answer your question in its current form. The word Chauvinist is ambiguous, and generally carries negative judgement with it. I don't want to insult anyone here, despite my talk with Devil's Advocate being quite harsh, even more harsh than i wanted(been too tired at the moment of writing - the usual story). Will you, please, reformulate your question? All i wanted to say, is that the most popular english title carries in it a pro-georgian POV and one of the causes for it being popular is an overwhelming support of Georgia in US and UK. And that's the reason for us to avoid it, as any other POV, no matter how popular among English-speaking people it is. In other words, neutrality is more important than popularity in wikipedia, and WP:POV#English_language section is another place where wikipedia states it. 212.192.164.14 (talk) 10:37, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

You know, there's not much point in discussing this with you. Rather than being constructive you decide to trip up any attempt to rename this by arguing any alternative will be pushing a POV. However, there is almost always a contrary POV to a title or a subject. The policy on neutrality leaves out fringe POVs. The fact a very small group of people think South Ossetia and Abkhazia were unquestionably independent during the war doesn't mean somehow we should prevent the most commonly used English title from being the title of this article.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 01:26, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Devil's Advocate: NEWSFLASH! This article isn't about South Ossetian and Abkhazian independence, but rather about the 2008 South Ossetia War. Independence was recognized by Russia AFTER the war. I'm sure there's an article on it somewhere on Wikipedia, but this isn't it. Maybe you might want to try "International Response to Russia's Recognition of South Ossetia and Abkhazia" or something like that. And the word Chauvinist isn't ambiguous. One of the definitions obtained from Dictionary.com describes you Title Changers perfectly: "biased devotion to any group, attitude, or cause." There have been neutral people, truly neutral people calling to stop this madness, such as Derek M. Barnes who earlier said: "I propose we all take an extended hiatus concerning the name of the article, then come back and decide once the outside world has made a decision on the official name. Say, three to six months? " Instantly Grey Fox said nah, let's keep on arguing about it. Xeeron and yourself concurred. Truth be told, there's only a few editors - you amongst them - that want the title change, the rest either want to give it a break or keep it. I've also not seen the "Title Changers" have any positive comments about Russia, except the blatantly obvious ones, such as "yeah they won!" In addition quite a few people think that South Ossetia and Abkhazia were De Facto Independent; in fact Saakashvili's attack was to prevent South Ossetia from being De Facto independent from Georgia. Now there are people who don't recognize De Jure Independence, and only go by De Facto Independence; while that may be a fringe group, the fact that South Ossetia was De Facto Independent, remains a fact and is not subject to POV. The title change that you are proposing, will ensure that the reader believes that South Ossetia was not De Facto Independent; thus it would be a pro-Georgian POV going against FACTS! HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 04:57, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Car Bomb Attack against Russian Peacekeeping HQ

I've added an article about the terrorist attack on Russian Peacekeeping Forces (or Russian Army) in South Ossetia's capital of Tskhinvali and a biased POV editor deleted it without bothering to discuss it here. I'm new to Wikipedia - so if anyone can tell me who tries to not report terror attacks on wikipedia, which user, or how I can find out, I would greatly appreciate it. This is unacceptable. You don't just delete a whole section because you don't like it, especially one dealing with terrorists. Are you sympathizing with them? You didn't even bother to change it, you just deleted it. It was well sourced too, three sources for three sentences. Are you engaging in edit wars over not reporting a terrorist attack? What is your overall purpose here? I am fairly certain that you have at least violated one Wikipedia Rule, and if it happens again, I will not hesitate to report it, I have zero tolerance on subjective terrorist reporting, or terrorist hiding. I've had friends in 9/11 and in Beslan. Just letting you know mystery persona. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 05:37, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

And BTW - if you think something I wrote is biased, you are welcome to discuss it here. Discussion I am open to, deleting the basic facts of the act I'm not. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 06:41, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

You should try moving it to 2008 Georgia–Russia crisis, as it is not part of the war. If you want to read up on Wikipedia policies, Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines is a good place to start. --Xeeron (talk) 09:27, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Agree! Additionally it doesn't make sense to cite different sources but then using phrases which preferring definitely only one view. Elysander (talk) 09:36, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

I think it does bare some relevance to the article as it is directly affecting the aftermath. From my understanding the final Russian withdrawal from the buffer zones is a key event in the actual ratification of the cease-fire. The peace process regarding this war is still on-going and this explosion is being pinned by both Governments on the other with the accusations that the other side is attempting to undermine the peace-process. This event is significant to the war in my mind. I do agree on the re-write though; even if (hypothetically) the facts were presented fairly, the passage was not written in a balanced way in my opinion.--ZedderZulu (talk) 15:59, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Please see the policy WP:TERRORIST. Grey Fox (talk) 19:14, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Umm, ok and why was the EU condemnation of the attack deleted? How was that biased? Please do tell, do tell. And Georgia didn't offer condolences. How was that biased? Again do tell. All you did was change the order of the sentences, to somehow make it sound better, and removed several FACTS! Also, those soldiers were heroes to Russians. That's another FACT. Granted, I should have used Car Bomb instead, which the astute leader will equate to terrorism anyways. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HistoricWarrior007 (talk • contribs) 20:48, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

No need for posting your opinion everywhere, wikipedia is not a forum. Your material simply doesn't fit in this article, but on the conflict page. Also your piece does not include the number of georgian officers killed after the war already ended, those are also significant and Russia never gave out their "condolances" either. Grey Fox (talk) 20:51, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Here it is, Georgia officer killed near Russian post Grey Fox (talk) 22:30, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Umm, Actually Mr. Grey Fox the Russians did offer condolences to their own troops. Well done on replying to my fact questions with incorrect facst of you own. You are truly a credit to Wikipedia. As for "posting my opinion everywhere" - if I may direct you to Xeeron's suggestion that I "should try moving it to 2008 Georgia–Russia crisis, as it is not part of the war." Furthermore, it's not my opinion, it's factually based, unlike your claim about Russian Condolences. Reading Comprehension is truly a wonderful thing to have. Here's a Chinese source on the issue Mr. Grey Fox, may I, on your behalf, inform them not to post their opinions everywhere? http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90777/90853/6509384.html Aside from calling the Russian soldiers heroes and the EU's condemnation, againt both facts, they pretty much mirror what I wrote before them. If you truly think that you can respond to facts with lies, such as "Russia never gave out their "condolances" either" I urge you to stop. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 09:22, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Wrong place , wrong time! 1) Post war events don't actually belong to this war article. Check whether another article, a new article (or perhaps a special aftermath/ceasefire section in this article) is fitting your stuff! Maybe a time line of such post war events could be helpful. 2) Yesterday i had to registrate two different versions of this "terrorist attack". Yours mentioned and additionally one according "Kommersant" ( cited via Swiss NZZ [[2]] ) that Russian soldiers did move the suspicious car(s) to their headquarters themselves where one exploded. It makes no sense to insert agency news or dependent online news which permanently will be updated shortly after the event . Elysander (talk) 11:40, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I believe Grey Fox was implying that Russia never offered condolences to the Georgians killed in the separate attacks.

Yes I was. Grey Fox (talk) 20:10, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the attack in Tskhinvali and the attacks on Georgian police\military personnel do belong here and should be included somewhere in this article in events that occurred in the lead up to a (eventual) finalised peace treaty. To repeat my own opinion, the conflict is still only in a state of cease-fire. As far as I'm aware, Georgia views Russia as having not fulfilled its commitments to the peace plan yet because its forces are still in the buffer zone. Until then, I don't think the two countries are at peace at all. And all the while, in my view these incidents are risking prolonging the conflict.--ZedderZulu (talk) 11:22, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Grey Fox can imply whatever he wishes, but the FACT is that the Russians did offer condolences to the families of the dead and the wounded. They gave the wounded unlimited healthcare and sent a handsome money sum to the dead. They've also stated that they're offering condolences on Russian TV Stations. As per the two Georgians killed, sniping people in disputed territorry is a tad different then making a car bomb go off in the center of Tskhinvali, the city that Georgians shelled with rockets from GRAD rocket launchers in August for several days. And Mr. Grey Fox I urge you to be more specific. And if post war events don't belong in this article, why is there Russian recognition of South Ossetia and Abkhazia? Wouldn't that be post-war? HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 20:40, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

You don't get what I meant, Russian government officials didn't give out condolances when a Georgian officer was shot near a Russian checkpoint, a while before this car bomb went off. Why should Georgia offer condolances when it's the other way around, and Russian officers are killed? The fact that you differentiate between those two incidents demonstrates you're biased when it comes to conflict. As for the recognition by Russia, it's a direct result of the war. This slow type of guerilla warfare however was already happening before the war, and will probably continue in the future as well. BTW, It's better to never call people "supporters of terrorist" again because there's several policies against that such as WP:CIVILITY and WP:ETIQUETTE. Grey Fox (talk) 21:27, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

If you don't make it clear, it's not my problem. You said Russia did not offer condolences, you didn't specify to whom. And your inability to tell the difference between sniping and a car bomb does not make your argument that I'm baised, sound. The Georgians were killed in a bufferzone. The Russians were killed in the center of Tskhinvali. 3 civillians also died. So again, if you cannot tell a difference between a car bomb and sniping, please don't use that inability of yours to call me biased. In addition, if everyone calls it a terrorist act, even the US:

"In Washington, US State Department deputy spokesman Robert Wood said: 'The United States deplores the October 3 bombing in Tskhinvali in the Georgian region of South Ossetia, which killed seven Russian troops and at least four others. 'We extend our deep condolences to the families of all the victims. We condemn whoever was responsible for this crime, and call on all parties to implement and adhere to all aspects of the ceasefire.'" [3]

and you implicitly support the action such as saying "Why should Georgia offer condolances when it's the other way around, and Russian officers are killed". A Car Bomb in which civillians are killed is a terrorist attack, that's been established for quite a while, and you seem to be supporting it...HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 00:46, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, how's attacking the Peacekeepers HQ in Tskhinvali not a direct result of the war? And I'm the biased one? I urge you to study the difference between Sniping and Car Bombs before calling others biased and lecturing them on civility. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 01:01, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

It seems that you still consider it perfectly acceptable for Russians to kill a Georgian officer, but once it's (possibly) the other way around you go mad. There's no difference between the type of attack because the outcome is the same. I also don't see the US calling it a "terrorist attack", they just condemn the attack. And yes, a car bomb targeting civilians is usually dubbed terrorism, but civilians weren't targeted as far as anyone knows. Military personel were targeted, civilian casualties during such an attack usually fall under Collateral damage unless civilians are deliberately targeted. Like how Ossetian forces have been looting and destroying thousands of Georgian homes in S. Ossetia and carried out an ethnic cleansing campaign supported by Russia. You don't care about any of that, but once somebody strikes back you call it "terrorism". Once again read the policy WP:TERRORIST, because to be blunt, nobody cares about your personal moral judgement. Grey Fox (talk) 01:47, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me that you don't seem to get different types of attacks. When war was on I had no trouble with Georgian and Russian troops killing each other, so your argument about me only caring whether Russia is hit back or not is moot. Furthermore a Car Bomb is considered a terrorist attack, Georgian special forces, or "Georgian Police" getting killed by Russian military or "Russian Peacekeepers" are not. You seem to have no trouble dismissing civillian lives. When a person signs up for the military, it is his choice. When a civillian gets shot, it's not his choice. You seem to fail to get that fundamental principle, yet have no trouble calling me biased. And you still failed at answering my question as to how attacking peacekeepers in HQ in Tskhinvali not directly related to the war, can you please answer, or are you going to give another "fact" and call me biased instead. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 04:14, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

A typical debate! One serious incident which will be reduced to a 3-line-sentence few weeks ahead. And still assertions stand against assertions. Is it an "attack" or more an "accident" ? Who is responsible for what? Russian soldiers moved a suspicious car from the buffer zone to their HQ themselves. If no remote-controlled bomb can be ascertained no planned attack on Russian HQ has taken place. Who did drive this suspicious car? Russians speak about Georgians, Georgians say it must have been Ossetians. As I said above some news are inserted in this article too early. Elysander (talk) 09:00, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

A car blowing up in the city center is an accident? So let me get this straight. The car had been rigged with explosives, and you are calling this an accident? Sorry about your family dear neighbor, my TNT just caused an accident. Riiiight. There's nothign to debate here. A Car Bomb is a Terrorist Attack, sniping isn't. It's the type of actions, rather then the country that contemplated these actions. If the Russians were sniped and the Georgians were Car Bombed, I'd call out the Russians on it. And Russians don't blow up their soldiers after the latter have achieved a massive victory. South Ossetians wouldn't dare. Who does that leave? Zombies? Or Georgians? HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 16:39, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

HistoricWarrior007, this is just your personal opinion. Shooting dead a Georgian officer is also a violation of the peace treaty. Above all, car bombs are still accepted as legitimate warfare as long as they don't target civilians specifically. If apparently civilians died during the explosion that's tragic of course, but still military personel were targeted, and they fall under collateral damage. Apart from having been used in Afghanistan, Iraq and in Russia's southern caucasus region by chechen and other insurgents, Russia has made use of them as well. Before this war broke out Ossetian/Russian forces have made extensive use of them, see Timeline of the 2008 South Ossetia war. And again, per the WP:TERRORIST policy, neither "terrorist" or "freedom fighters" are accepted because they both aren't neutral and unencyclopedic. Grey Fox (talk) 17:28, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

That's why Terrorism article aren't neutral and unencyclopedic, isn't it? Don't take such words out of context, please. (Pubkjre (talk) 19:13, 6 October 2008 (UTC))

Bravo Pubkjre! Watch out though, Mr. Grey Fox may cite WP:Terrorism again. Also Grey Fox, it's not just my personal opinion. In a gang fight, if one gangster shoots another one dead, (as in sniping) the gangster doesn't usually get maximum jail time. If someone detonates a carbomb, even if it's done on a military base, they get maximim punishment, be it maximum jail time or a trip to the morgue. So the legal systems World, from Germany to Sudan, agree with my opinion, as you falsely dub it. It's not my opinion, it's a fact of every known legal system. A car bomb is a crime punishable by maximum sentence, and it usually is punished by maximum sentence, much like a terror attack. Sniping is not. When a Russian worker died to a sniping attack from a Georgian village, I didn't call that terrorism. I'm not deluded, to me car bomb and sniping are two different things, and that's how every functioning legal system treats them. It is interesting how you call my fact an opinion, and try to impose your opinion as a fact on everyone else, via the sheer power of repeating it many times, even though every known functioning legal system thinks otherwise. This fails to work on people not addicted to Fox News, Dear Grey Fox. And you stated that Russian recognition of Georgia should stay in this article because it is a direct result of the war. I ask you, how's a car bomb/terrorist attack on Tskhinvali not a direct result of the war? Please try to answer this question prior to repeating what you said earlier yet again.... HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 06:13, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Irrelevant personal opinion. Check your own sources again and add the Guardian article: [[4]] The Guardian is able to divide between biased views and facts. What you did offer to us as facts Guardian described it as opinion or assertion in quotes. Additionally Guardian is pointing in contrary to your former POV section to open questions. Elysander (talk) 08:39, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

"it's a fact of every known legal system" One more ridiculous claim, not backed up by any evidence. --Xeeron (talk) 08:48, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Dear Elysander, if you can please tell me where exactly the Guardian disagrees with what I'm saying? I've said that a car bomb is a terrorist attack, whereas sniping is not, and the Guarding quotes several official sources, one at the end of the article, saying that it was a terrorist attack and has nothing about sniping. How does that contradict my argument again, I just don't get it, perhaps you would care to explain instead of posting slander? Show me the exact Guardian quote. Can you? Dear Xeeron - you are welcome to disprove it. All you have to do is just name one legal system, that is legitimate, where a car bomb is treated the same as sniping. Please name just one. Shouldn't be too hard, unless you're the one trying to slander me for presenting facts that you don't like. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 09:08, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry ... but now it will be too ridiculous. Where did Guardian confirm or underline, it is a terrorist attack? It presents the views of both sides and points to open questions. What Guardian did it's careful journalistic work - what you did in your article insertings days ago was pushing one single-side view by choosing a certain title and formulating a not neutral the sources surrounding text as everybody can read and Guardian did avoid. ;) Elysander (talk) 11:39, 7 October 2008 (UTC) 11:35, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

So if you make ridiculous claims without any back up, it is up to me to disprove? Haha. Rather up to you to bring some evidence in the first place. Just to humor you, I'll point you to Murder and especially Premeditated murder which show no difference in the choice of weapon. Not that I guess you will pay this any more attention that the numerous attempts to educate you about using Google. --Xeeron (talk) 12:39, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

The Guardian said it was a Car Bomb Attack, and Car Bomb attacks are considered terrorist attacks, see Islamabad attack and Tomothy McVeigh. Wow, I guess if it's Timothy McVeigh it's a terrorist attack, but if its possibly Georgians, it's not. Wow, just wow. Also, sniping doesn't show clear intent for murder, especially since no one saw the crime taking place. A Car Bomb does show intent for murder. Way to prove yourself wrong Xeeron. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 06:58, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

The car bombs you are talking about targeted civilians explicitly. Grey Fox (talk) 17:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I have more or less given up trying to discuss with HistoricWarrior007. His posts defy basic logic, he does not seem to read the replies posted to him and his view of the issue is set in stone (and, of course, always correct). Wasted time to reply further. --Xeeron (talk) 16:21, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

A attempt to repel a invading force is not a "terrorist" attack, a "terrorist" attack would be a attack on civilians in that manner. This was a attack against military personal during a hostile occupation of a sovereign country. Just because the means of the attack was a car dose not alone qualify it as a "terrorist" attack. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.179.183.114 (talk) 01:04, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Dear user 75.179 - perhaps you haven't heard this, or you forgot to read the article, but the war's over. I recommend you actually READ the article, before commenting on it. The Article gives two dates for the war's end, and they're both in August. The car bomb attack occurred in October. Also if Georgian forces think it's legitimate, why aren't they saying so? Xeeron, isn't your personal attack on me violating a wikipedia policy? Also, killing special forces in disputed regions, or "police" is what you consider pre-emptive murder? And after that you dare call me a 'waste of time'? I don't think that I'm the one defying logic here. As for Grey Fox - the car bombs I was referring to did not explicitely target civillians. McVeigh's targeted the FBI, an organization the has more rights, AND more responsibilities then the average civillian. The Islamabad Car Bomb, according to a BBC article, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7630024.stm - claimed that Fidayeen-e-Islam whose aim was to kick "The purpose of this attack is to kick American crusaders out of Pakistan" especially US Marines. So in short, if Muslims do it, it's terrorism. If Saakashvili does it, it's self-defense. For pointing this out, I'm called the Biased One. Wonderful. Surprisingly the editors calling me biased all want to get this article's name changed. Coincidence? HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 04:13, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Russian victory???

Is this a coverage of the five-day war, which russia won decisively, the conflict over South Ossetia and Abkhazia which is ongoing, or the entire Russian-Georgian conflict(Russian agression, Georgian attack on South Ossetia, Russian invasion of Georgia, Russian-Georgian cyberwar, and Propaganda)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.227.91.32 (talk) 16:14, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

In answer to your question, the focus of this article is on the five-day war. 81.157.177.248 (talk) 20:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Imo, this should be about the war only, since there is also 2008 Georgia–Russia crisis, which deals with the whole crisis. However, that view is not shared by all (check ZedderZulu above). --Xeeron (talk) 16:36, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Russia routed 90% of the Georgian Army, sunk I think about over 70% or 80% of Georgian Navy and shot down most of Georgian Air Force. I'd say that's a victory that's quite decisive. That and the ease with which the Russians took Senaki, kinda shows that it was a Russian Military victory. Whether they were justified or not in taking Senaki is debatable, I think they were but one could make a counter-argument; however the manner in which they took it, and how brilliantly they set up the battles to take it, cannot be questioned as anything but a victory. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 20:34, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

It's a civil war and rebellion at the same time! Most serious editors have given up on this article. Ottre 11:12, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

It was not a "decisive" Russian victory, they got hammered politically for this- and now they must retreat in humiliation due to international law.

Thats hardly "decisive"

75.179.183.114 (talk) 01:16, 9 October 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat

Whatever happens after the war, the Russian military victory was swift and complete, in other words, it was decisive. --Xeeron (talk) 16:17, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

So let me get this straight: having a parade as they retreat, while taking away all of the war trophies, including Jeeps, under the drums, and with their flags being properly taken down is called a "retreat in humiliation"? Do you know what humiliation is, or is there a definition of the word humiliation that I do not yet know? Also, Medvedev ordered the retreat; as for International Law being used, the Russians were never sued under International Law, thus they have no order binding them to retreat, they are doing so willingly, because Medvedev promised that Sarkozy. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 03:56, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Fact and Fiction

In the box it says that "Fewer than 100 killed in South Ossetia according to Human Rights Watch". However the actual article reads: "I don't understand where the number of 1,500 comes from," Lokshina told reporters. "Thank God, civilian deaths are not measured in thousands," she said, adding that the number of civilians who died appeared to be "fewer than 100." Lokshina said it was impossible to determine the precise number of casualties at this point." She said that it appears that fewer then 100 were killed, whereas the article presents as if it's a fact, claimed by the HRW, clearly misrepresenting Lokshina's qoute. Go Bias! HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 04:22, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Is anyone going to make the edit? Or do we all love bias? HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 09:50, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

It's an independent estimation. So far every number is an estimation. Grey Fox (talk) 15:27, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Why was the Human rights watch group's number deleated?

I think the pro- Russian people have launched a censorship campaign once again, the Human rights watch's number was deleted and placed a "impossible to know" in it's place. I think it should be re-instated to maintain neutrality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.179.183.114 (talk) 01:13, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

It's fine, stop editing it! HRW is a independent source- and they took that number from local hospitals on the 11th- the vast majority of those admitted where military casualties, with some 56 civilians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.179.183.114 (talk) 01:21, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I am truly wondering if pro-Georgian editors have mastered the art of reading my posts. I've said that if you want to qoute the HRW - you MUST qoute them correctly, and not out of context. When they say "we think the number of casualties is XYZ" and you say the HRW asserts that "the number of casualties is XYZ" - you are in fact being biased. HRW article said that they're not sure, whereas you are saying that they are asserting it. This is called BIAS. Also, not every number's an estimation Grey Fox - the Russian planes lost are at 4, not an estimation. Stop making stuff up to suit your points. Please someone edit in HRW's full quote. In addition, edit in Memorial's full qoute as well, rather then the part that the pro-Georgian editors like. You shouldn't delete it, but give the reader the actual information, not merely the information censored by the pro-Saakashvili editors. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 04:23, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

"The number of civilians who died appear to be fewer than 100". I don't see how this is not clear enough, and why it should be phrased differently. Yes they said it's impossible to determine the exact number (just like with almost every war), but according to them the real number is still below a hundred. Their independent estimation is extremely relevant and it's told explicitily that this number comes from HRW. BTW, you should Assume Good Faith more often. Grey Fox (talk) 14:11, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok, let's compare the two: "Fewer than 100 killed in South Ossetia according to Human Rights Watch" vs. "The number of civilians who died appear to be fewer than 100". One is clearly assertive, the other one is suggestive. After me pointing this out 3 times, and you still failing to see the bias, how exactly am I supposed to assume good faith? Assertive and suggestive aren't synonyms in any encyclopedic sense and this is an encyclopedic article. I don't see you assuming good faith on the title issue dear Mr. Grey Fox, why don't you lead by example. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 06:47, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

It used to say "Russia/S.Ossetia claims 1,500 killed" for quite a while, even though that was an estimation as well. For some reason you never had a problem with that. Grey Fox (talk) 16:30, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Grey Fox - I have yet to see you correct any pro-Georgian bias here and there's quite a bit of it. Also, when it said South Ossetia/Russia claims 1,500 - the data was clouded, heck it still is clouded. It's unclear. So when you have a direct quote, I don't see why you have to replace it with your own version that shows pro-Georgian Bias, what's wrong with using the quote, word per word and not engaging in original research. Funny how you always qoute WP to editors whose viewpoints you disagree with, but never to editors whose viewpoints you agree with. Doesn't that make you biased? And back on topic - just use the damn actual quote, no need to paraphrase it. See WP:Original Research. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 04:42, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Added video to article

As we have permission from the Kremlin to use their site materials, I have added to the section 2008_South_Ossetia_war#Recognition_of_breakaway_regions, the video of Medvedev making his announcement on the recognition of A & SO. At the moment it is only in Russian, but still relevant, and I will attempt to find someone who has the ability to add English subtitles to the video. If anyone understands Russian and has this ability, please feel free to do it. I could add an English voiceover to the video, but I think my heavy Aussie accent would distract somewhat from the video itself. --Russavia ^{Dialogue Stalk me} 11:02, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Having a video is certainly cool, but the video is also, well, Russian. Meaning some 98% of the users of the English wikipedia will not get anything of what is said. As a side note: Why did you not add this to the more relevant International recognition of Abkhazia and South Ossetia article? --Xeeron (talk) 19:26, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I added it to that article first, it's under Russia's recognition section. On the video information page is a link to the Kremlin website translation transcript. And I am searching for someone who is able to add subtitles to videos, that's beyond my technical capabilities. --Russavia ^{Dialogue Stalk me} 19:38, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

My bad on International recognition of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, I checked under Russia, not the text above. I'll remove the video here for now. On the other article it is more relevant so I'll leave it, but it should still get subtitles quickly; in an english speaking wiki all content needs to be in english. --Xeeron (talk) 20:27, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I've actually added it back in, as there is absolutely no requirement for all content on English WP to be in English. It's just as relevant on this article, and we have the resources available to us, so we shouldn't be using a 'technical' snag to disallow their usage on WP. --Russavia ^{Dialogue Stalk me} 21:05, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

What makes you think that content on the English language wiki should not be in English? Seems pretty straight forward to me. In terms of policy, there is Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion, which lists "Foreign language articles that exist on another Wikimedia project." as ones up for speedy deletion. As you know, speedy deletion is reserved for cases that are so clear that no discussion about the deletion is needed. In the end, there is a wiki in each language for a reason. --Xeeron (talk) 22:38, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

You are actually taking CSD out of context, as this only applies to articles. For example, if I were to start an article called Aeroflot, and its content was in Russian language, let's say like ru:Аэрофлот that article, then it would be a candidate for speedy deletion. What you are talking about is article content, and there is no such policy that states that images, or dare I say it, videos and other visual aids must be in English language. Of course, this is negated in this instance due to the providing of a link to the actual English language transcript. --Russavia ^{Dialogue Stalk me} 22:56, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Why would it be up for speedy deletion? Because using a language different from English is not appropriate. I can only guess why there is no general rule. Maybe it exists and I didn't find it, maybe it was not created because it would be problematic in articles dealing with foreign languages/countries/topic, maybe there have simply not been enough people yet argueing that the English wiki should not be fully English to make such a policy needed or maybe non-English content is dealt with under some other rule I don't know. All of that apart, the video does simply not add anything to the article for English speaking readers. What those need is the English version (and only the English version). --Xeeron (talk) 23:08, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok, strike what I have said. I apologize: By being overly diplomatic and trying not to antagonize you (and being to lazy to type more), I was being unclear and let this be diverted to a subtopic. This is what I should have said to begin with:

Having that video here is a really crappy idea. It does (as all forms of pictures and non-text) lighten up the flow of the article, but thats about it for the positives. On the negative side:

• The video can not be understood by 98% of the readers here.
• It is a primary source. We have several secondary sources of the same event available and those are prefered by wikipedia.
• The video is by far not relevant enough to include here. We have a small summary section of another article and 2 sentences are fully enough to state the Russian action. No need for the equivalent for a full page of text talking.
• The video is strongly promoting the POV of one side, not neutral.
• Completely forwarding politicians speechs is not encyclopedic at all. We didn't have the transcript quoted in full here before the video for the same reason.
• If we start including strong POV topics, we are on a slippery slope towards this article being nothing better than a youtube like collection of propaganda. There are even more ridiculous attempts right now.

For all of these reasons and for each of them alone, the video needs to be removed. --Xeeron (talk) 23:36, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I know that people are going to have a problem with such items. To go thru your points. Whilst audio may not be understood, a transcript is provided. Additionally, a search is currently underway to find someone who can add subtitles. Wikipedia policy dictates that primary sources may not be the only sources used to build an article, it is no way stops primary sources from being used. What we have on this article is two lines of Russian recognition, and a dozen or so "condemning" Russia's decision. Of course the video is going to give Medvedev's POV, we wouldn't expect him to read the same speeches as Saakashvili. There is nothing to say that POV materials can't be provided, but that all POVs are provided. --Russavia ^{Dialogue Stalk me} 23:49, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

There are 2 lines about Russia's recognition, 1 line about georgia's response, 1 line about nicaragua and another 1 line about NATO/EU. In the next paragraph, there are 2 lines about NATO/OSCE about the recognition and 1 line about shanghai cooperation organisation. So I count in total 4 lines in favor, 4 lines against the recognition. Perfectly balanced. Except there is no Saakashivili video (and I don't want that in the article any more than the Medvedev one). --Xeeron (talk) 10:10, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

The non-existence of a Saakashvili video is not reason enough to remove one of Medvedev. If a Saakashvili video is absolutely needed for the existence of this video, then contact the BBC and ask them for a CC licences on the video showing Saakashvili eating his tie. --Russavia ^{Dialogue Stalk me} 14:23, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Images and videos are rarely sources, their purpose is to illustrate the article, showing how things were done, an English user can see the body language of Medvedev, his mimic, decorations, etc. The movie is clearly labeled as "In Russian", so if anybody thinks that it is of now use to him or her, then he she would not click on the play button, thats all. The image is small on the spce and the crowding is not huge, the propaganda value is minimal (if any). In short I see how keeping the image improve the section of the article but I cannot see any significant drawbacks Alex Bakharev (talk) 00:02, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

"an English user can see the body language of Medvedev, his mimic, decorations" you very nicely summed up why the video is irrelevant. This is neither an article about Medvedev, nor about body language, nor about Russian decorations. --Xeeron (talk) 10:10, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

As Alex says the space taken up is minimal, we are not a paper encyclopaedia so we don't have size constraints. No this is not an article about Medvedev, nor about body language, nor about Russian decorations, it is an article about the 2008 South Ossetia War, of which one of the outcomes was the recognition by Russia of the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, and as the video if Medvedev's response to that recognition and why that recognition occurred, it is absolutely relevant to the article. --Russavia ^{Dialogue Stalk me} 14:23, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Even though we are not a paper encyclopaedica, we do have a size constraint. It is not in terms of "bytes on wikipedia's servers", but in terms of "amount of paper the reader is willing to read while trying to inform himself about the article". If that kind of attention span limit seems obscure to you, remember that wikipedia has (to my best knowledge) no book lenght articles, even though it contains hundreds or thousands of articles that describe topics which can be elaborated on more than book lenght.

However, I am willing to be convinced: Cite me an example of another wiki page using a completely non-english language video even though good secondary English sources are available for the same fact and I'll agree with keeping it here. --Xeeron (talk) 16:38, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

As has been pointed out on a couple of occasions already, the video is not being used in the article as a source of information. It's being used as a visual aid. And there is absolutely zero policy which bars usage of a foreign language aid on WP, and even less so when an English transcript is provided in addition. A photo of the same thing could be provided on the article, however, this provides both a 'photographic' image in addition to a video for those understand Russian and want to listen to it, or listen to it and use the English transcript. And there's no policy against that either. --Russavia ^{Dialogue Stalk me} 07:10, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

You said all that before, I and understood the meaning of your words. However I disagree with you and stand by my objections raised above. That is why I offered you to cite some other pages using videos in a similar way. If you cant find any, I will assume that the video's use here is out of line with wikipedia's video use (that is, editors of other articles rather agree to my points than your points) and remove it. --Xeeron (talk) 10:50, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

If we were discussing article content, as opposed to visual aids in the article, that would be a case of WP:SYN. What we have here is a video which has been released under a free licence, which is quite unusual, as most countries keep complete copyright over such things, or don't release them at all; or copyrights are owned by media organisations. To say that this does not exist in other articles proves that its existence here is out of line with WP's video use (of which there is no policy which says it can not be used), is synthesis of the existence (or in this case non-existence) of one thing to prove fact of another thing. If you continue to disagree, I would suggest that you take it to WP:RFC to get outside opinion, because what you are stating above has no grounding in any policy of WP. --Russavia ^{Dialogue Stalk me} 11:52, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

You must be joking- anything that comes from Russia is going to be completely unreliable. Only independent sites should be used, this is ludicrous- using a Russian source- absurd! Wiki is neutral not a propaganda outlet for the Soviets.

This "video" should be deleted, its like showing Michal moor's movie as to the history of the Iraq war.

75.179.183.114 (talk) 01:10, 9 October 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat

By the same way I can say that there are no independent and neutral sites in the English-speaking world, especially for the situation around Georgia. And not only for this situation... And not only in the English-speaking world... There are no sites in the world those are completely independent and neutral for all events in the world. (Pubkjre (talk) 08:31, 9 October 2008 (UTC))

What are you talking about? The war was between Russia and Georgia and Georgian rebels, 99% of the countries are independent. The main problem is the media in Russia is state controlled.

75.179.183.114 (talk) 18:04, 9 October 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat

Most of the world’s medias are controlled by governments or by business (or they are the business themselves), so there are no unbiased medias, and if you want to understand what's happened, it's required to analyze different reports... The main problem is that some governments are controlled by the business. So, I don’t know what’s better – medias controlled by the government, or medias and the government controlled by the business... (Pubkjre (talk) 19:58, 9 October 2008 (UTC))