Talk:Transnistria

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???

Sorry for having to be away for a while, but since when is the PMR a "republic" and an "independent country?" Those descriptions in the introduction are frankly as POV as you can get and border on (if not step into) plain and simple lies. Sorry, not a republic. And sorry, not sovereign, not a country. If this sort of stuff persists, I see more tagging in our future. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 22:10, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

i agree it is as much POV as it can get. Complete disrespect towards WP:NPOV. EvilAlex 22:16, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the person who is introduced this phrasing has already explained himself here, and in Archive 13 as well. There's no need to take his words out of context. The intro he has states that "is a de facto independent republic within the internationally recognized borders of Moldova" and this is currently being debated, as you can see on this page. I would urge anyone who disagree to state so here, and wait for him to answer you. We try to edit through consensus. The same is true for the "country" bit. It does not say that Transnistria is a good, but merely that it "It functions as a sovereign country" in a limited context, which is given in the same sentence. We don't gain anything by taking words out of context and misrepresenting them. - Mauco 22:17, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I think you are just happy you could take a vacation from making the same outrageous POV contentions. "Republic" and "country" imply attributes which the PMR does not posess. There's no such thing as de facto sovereign, which is what is being represented here. It's not about good or evil, the Soviet Union as evil as it was, was sovereign (though not over all its incorporated territory.) Saying the PMR, South Osettia, or any other of the breakaway regions are countries except the uninformed aren't calling them that yet is not appropriate for an encyclopedia which is required to be based on reputable sources, not on conjecture based on supposition with a topping of massive pro-PMR spin-doctoring.

     By the way, what ever happened to your strident "no, they're not original research, really" assurances (wasn't it more than a year ago now?) that the PMR was changing, that Smirnov was on the ropes and on his way out? Same folks who record who votes for whom and are supported by Alksnis' henchmen are all still in power. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 02:47, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and Transnistrian militant activists raiding Russian arms stores and having Russian troops openly support them is not a "war for independence." Since everyone is using American parallels here, why not just go all the way POV over-the-top and call Igor Smirnov the George Washington of Transnistria? —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 02:51, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

The discussions about various parts of the first sentence should be held in the appropriate sections. There was no reply to Illythr's and my last posts in them with the exception of EvilAlex' eyewitness accounts. Alaexis 06:05, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I have to make the observation, you're sounding SO like Mauco. Are you sure you're not his Abkhazi persona transplanted to Transistria by force of necessity? —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 00:57, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Dikarka 12:47, 2 April 2007 (UTC) don't agree that Russia has troops illegally in Pridnestrovie. The troops are there with a mandate, and their presence was approved in a referendum by Pridnestrovie's people in 1995.

Names section

proposed version:

The name Transnistria is most commonly used, and does not imply the status of Transnistria: region of Moldova or independent state.

The name used in the Constitution of Transnistria is Pridnestróvskaia Moldávskaia Respública (Moldovan: Republica Moldovenească Nistreană, Russian: Приднестровская Молдавская Республика, Ukrainian: Придністровська Молдавська Республіка, ПМР). This is abbreviated PMR.A short form of this name is Pridnestrovie (transliteration of the Russian "Приднестровье").

older version:

Most commonly known in English as Transnistria (as it is also called in Romanian, the language of Moldova), its constitutional long name is Pridnestróvskaia Moldávskaia Respública (Moldovan: Република Молдовеняскэ Нистрянэ, Russian: Приднестровская Молдавская Республика, Ukrainian: Придністровська Молдавська Республіка, ПМР). This is abbreviated PMR.

The short form of this name is Pridnestrovie (transliteration of the Russian "Приднестровье").

Several other names are also in common use. Etymologically, they all come down to similar spelling variants of Transnistria, meaning "beyond the river Dniester", or Pridnestrovie, meaning "by the river Dniester".

The second variant is more informative and should be preferred imo. Alaexis 11:53, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The first sentence of second variant may be simplified into "Most commonly known in English by its Romanian name Transnistria,..."--Illythr 12:09, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

We already have a link to Names of Transnistria. Dl.goe 12:14, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The second link can be removed. --Illythr 12:18, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I can but agree with Illythr. Alaexis 19:46, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Internal Politics (about elections)

Imahina that now is tha version of socks of Mauco actibe. Tis is not good, as is not agaread by tha majority of beople.

Kanuni Sultan Suleyman 19:42, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Proposed version

According to official PMR data, only 15 members of the parliament out of 43 were born on the territory of Transnistria (12 in Transnistria proper, 3 in Bessarabian area of Bender-Chiţcani which is controlled by Transnistria), 4 were born in Bessarabia, part never claimed by Transnistria, 9 were born in the Russian Federation, 8 in Ukraine, 2 in Kazakhstan, 1 in Germany, 1 in Belarus, and 3 did not declare it.

Transnistrian sources

- No opposition parties or publications are banned. Political candidates in favor of unification with Moldova are allowed to stand in elections, although they rarely achieve more than 5% of the votes from the electorate. Likewise, unionist political parties and newspapers are legally registered and operating freely.

Moldovan sources

- The Power to the People Party, led by Supreme Soviet member Alexander Radchenko, was banned in May 2001; after an appeal the ban was lifted but was reintroduced in December 2001, again the ban was lifted to be reintroduced in August 2002 and confirmed by the "Supreme Court" in December 2002. "Power to the People" Party led by Nicolae Butchatsky was banned in February 2002. On November 14, 2001, the Transnistrian customs service banned the distribution or the publication "Glas Naroda", as it contained Radchenko's electoral platform. Radchenko said in a press conference that "Glas Naroda" has been published outside Transnistria because all the printing houses had refused to print it after having discussed the issue with representatives of the Ministry of State Security. -

|}

- In 2001 in one region it was reported that Igor Smirnov collected 103.6% of the votes. Nevertheless, some organizations, such as CIS-EMO, have participated and have called them democratic.

Older version

No opposition parties or publications are banned currently. Political candidates in favor of unification with Moldova are allowed to stand in elections, although they rarely achieve more than 5% of the votes from the electorate. Likewise, unionist political parties and newspapers are legally registered and operating freely. Despite some efforts to enhance the democratic process in recent years election results in the past were considered suspicious, as in 2001 in one region it was reported that Igor Smirnov collected 103.6% of the votes. Nevertheless, some organizations, such as CIS-EMO, have participated and have called them democratic.

The fact that some party was banned should be mentioned (if it's true) but not given the undue weight. After all it happened quite a long time ago and only with one party. The Moldovan sources section should be replaced with a single paragraph imo and inserted into the text of the 'older version'.

Myself I don't think the information about the birthplaces of Transnitrian mps is notable enough to be included in the main aricle. What are your opinions? Alaexis 20:07, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Alaexis, birthplaces are not important.Catarcostica 00:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Disagree. Where MPs and other Transnistrian authority members come from is extremely important considering how many are Russian citizens and the personal support they receive from Russian politicians. You cannot white-wash the origins of nor the governing of the PMR. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 01:00, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, you see, the OSTK (what later became the govt of Transnistria) has been formed spontaneously as a responce to the motion to adopt the new language law in 1989. I sort of doubt that Transnistrian politicians who had arrived in the region before that date were planted by KGB seers. Those who came later might've been, but I understand that you're counting even those MPs who moved to Transnistria as kids... So, I agree with Alaexis. What they do is important. Whether they're Russian, Jewish, black or gay is not. Such things are only important to Russo-, Jew-, Negro-, or gay-sceptics respectively, I think. --Illythr 01:29, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

The OSTK has been made into a president for life so far Igor Smirnov family run affair, with OMON henchmen still around. Whatever legitimate basis the OSTK had has long since been utterly erased. There are two points: (1) is the Russian dominated PMR leadership (the parliament is for show), and (2) the parliament and its teenagers when the PMR was formed "opposition" is not a true opposition, but a choreographed ballet for Western consumption for the PMR to paint the trappings of looking legitimate.

     The only sign I've seen that Smirnov might be wearing out his welcome is the assassination of his mafia-style-family cohort. Perhaps he's not privatizing Moldovan assets into the hands of Russian oligarchs at a fast enough pace. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 01:42, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Surely, you realize that a birthplace in the RSFSR together with an MP mandate don't automatically grant connections to the Russian mafia? --Illythr 12:44, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Btw, it's not mentioned in the article about California that its governor was born in Austria. Alaexis 14:12, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Alaexis,btw, it's mentioned that if you aren't born in USA you can't be the president. For Transnistria I don't see why birthplaces are that important. IMHO is more important to tell that some memeber of gov is wanted by Interpol.Catarcostica 17:02, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

- The Power to the People Party, led by Supreme Soviet member Alexander Radchenko, was banned in May 2001; after an appeal the ban was lifted but was reintroduced in December 2001, again the ban was lifted to be reintroduced in August 2002 and confirmed by the "Supreme Court" in December 2002. "Power to the People" Party led by Nicolae Butchatsky was banned in February 2002. On November 14, 2001, the Transnistrian customs service banned the distribution or the publication "Glas Naroda", as it contained Radchenko's electoral platform. Radchenko said in a press conference that "Glas Naroda" has been published outside Transnistria because all the printing houses had refused to print it after having discussed the issue with representatives of the Ministry of State Security.

This is what I propose. Further details about the closing of the PtP party should be in the appropriate article.

New version

No opposition parties or publications are banned currently. Political candidates in favor of unification with Moldova are allowed to stand in elections, although they rarely achieve more than 5% of the votes from the electorate. Likewise, unionist political parties and newspapers are legally registered and operating freely. However, the Power to the People Party faced numerous problems in 2001-2002 and was eventually closed. The election results in the past were considered suspicious, as in 2001 in one region it was reported that Igor Smirnov collected 103.6% of the votes. Nevertheless, some organizations, such as CIS-EMO, have participated and have called them democratic. Alaexis 05:15, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Need to return to a more neutral point?

Since there appears to be another moderator-intervened impasse, might I suggest "Transnistria (officially Pridnestrovie, per the PMR constitution) is a territory within the internationally recognized boundaries of the Republic of Moldova in eastern Europe. Transnistria declared its independence as a separate republic of the U.S.S.R. on September 2, 1990. Subsequent to the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Pridnestrovian Moldovan Republic (PMR) has exercised de facto control over most of Transnistria. Its independence has not been recognized, and sovereignty over Transnistria continues to be an issue of contention." as we had it, with some additional NPOV clarifications adopted from the current versions (rough location of the PMR, etc.)--without the inventories of things which one uses to WP:OR contend the PMR is a country. I'll post a suggested NPOV meld after giving it some more consideration. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 01:31, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

No objection, as long the the "inventory" is moved somewhere else in the article, like the Political status section. --Illythr 01:36, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I consider that fair, and as long as the inventory is stated without WP:OR ascribing country-hood. The inventory is what it is, interpretation left to the reader. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 01:51, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Your version is technically true (more or less), however I don't see why it's better than the version I've proposed. Alaexis 05:22, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

It also inserts the word territory and removes the word republic thereby demoting Transnistria to a provincial territory of Moldova. it could open another edit war. I am against changing it, but I want a section to highlight Moldova's position. Buffadren 08:13, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, the word "republic" is mentioned twice. Sort of. --Illythr 12:31, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure I can see what's wrong with it now. This debate it going to last forever. Also, are we really going to dig up the old "Officially" conrtoversy yet again? Jonathanpops 08:50, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree,there is no perfect intro, but the current version is very accurate but we do need a section for Moldovan political position later. This is more important than all the human rights reports. Buffadren 09:14, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

The current version is not very accurate at all. Not digging up the "officially" controversy, I merely had to go back that far to find an intro not pro-PMR-tilting. I think the following is fair.

Transnistria (also Pridnestrovie) is a territory within the internationally recognized boundaries of the Republic of Moldova in eastern Europe. It is situated between the left bank of the Dniester and the Ukraine to the east.

Transnistria declared its independence as a separate republic of the U.S.S.R. on September 2, 1990. Subsequent to the collapse of the Soviet Union, following armed conflict between Moldova and Transnistrian separatists supported by Russian military, the Pridnestrovian Moldovan Republic (PMR) has exercised de facto control over most of Transnistria. Its independence has not been recognized, and sovereignty over Transnistria continues to be an issue of contention. Igor Smirnov has been president of the PMR for its entire existence.

The article body would include the "inventory" of country-like items, as well as specify that the PMR refers to the armed conflict which gave rise to its existence as its "war of independence" which could continue to point to that article. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 16:05, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Dikarka 16:44, 4 April 2007 (UTC)Absolutely not, we are a “ is a de facto independent republic” and this is sourced. Don't remove sourced information. Facts are facts. You can also come here so you can see for yourself how we live. The full text is "a de facto independent republic within the internationally recognized borders of Moldova in Eastern Europe" and you can't change the facts

And why do you care, I’d like to know. You should mind your own business and everyone should better live their own lives and not interfere. You’d better come here and see before saying smth. I can't stand people who speak without knowing facts.

Dikarka/Mark or whoever, what do you mean "the full text is"? There's no such thing as "the full text", that's just another phrase someone made up on wikipedia in the past, it's not chiseled into the walls of the Tiraspol government buildings or anything. Jonathanpops 23:15, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

My dear Дикарка. I am quite well acquainted with Transnistrian circumstances, thank you, through correspondence with those as intimately familiar with circumstances as you yourself claim to be, and a whole lot of reading of analysis and books on the region and on Transnistria in particular. Unlike some of those who just like to listen to the sound of their blunderbuss going off, I've spent a significant amount of time and money tracking down, buying, and reading the latest references on Transnistria and the other "frozen-zone" conflicts. And I've had plenty of practice debating the propagandists like Mark Street, countering their fabrications and catching them in their lies with facts.
     My interest is that the freedom-demonstrator murdering Baltic OMON forces all transplanted to Transnistria by Mr. Alksnis' arrangement. They are all still there, Antyufeyev and company, who even by Russian accounts killed Transnistrians and then blamed the murders on Moldovan extremists. Transnistria, that bastion of democracy where votes are recorded and reams of transcripts are produced showing who voted for whom to prove it is a democracy. OOPS!
    You sound like Mark Street reborn. He could never type quite right when he worked himself into a self-righteous tither either. Save your indignation for after you've spent a few months contributing facts here. Two days on Wikipedia, no user or user talk page, and spouting canned pro-PMR indignation like an old pro all sounds like sock-puppet to me. Then again, perhaps I've just gotten old and cynical. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 02:36, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Firing their own blunderbuss, eh? I think you are way too easily provoked. Say, this is about the third time you mentioned Russian OMON killing Transnistrians, but I think this is the first time you mentioned Russian accounts of the deed. Last time I asked, you presented a Latvian source in Latvian. Perhaps now you can direct me to those Russian accounts instead? --Illythr 12:31, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Dikarka 16:46, 5 April 2007 (UTC)My dear Pēters J. Vecrumba! Although i'm only two days in Wikipedia, i've lived in Pridnestrovie for the whole of my life and i can't stand seeing all these lies about my country, ok? and i think i have a right to express my opinion here.I have never heard about Russians, Antiufeev and "company" (as you call them) killing people and making the Moldovans guilty . When we have elections noone makes you vote for this or that person. Nobody shows who voted for whom to prove it is a democracy. How can you write such things when you know nothing about us and just listen to some false facts and anti-Pridnestrovian propaganda. I would advise you to come here and see and only after that to write about us

To Illythr, I have some additional followup buried in my Email which I will try and find where I had contacted the source I had translated and quoted. I do have the original (non-Latvian) source.
To Dikarka:

1. Antyufeyev aka Shevtsov had a couple of his OMON guys shoot up an ambulance carrying a pregnant woman to the hospital, killing and wounding occupants of the ambulance and then blamed it on Moldovans.
2. The PMR authorities showed election results (every last person and who they voted for) to Pål Kolstø, Professor of Russian and Central European and Balkan Area Studies at the University of Oslo (whose writings Mauco has interpreted and cited as supporting the pro-PMR position), who was horrified.

I fervently hope that someday Transnistria will be the place its "supporters" paint it to be, but that is not today. You would appear to be poorly informed about the place you live in. Consider educating yourself before accusing others of lying. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 17:28, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

We are waiting for references )) Alaexis 17:51, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Kolstø's is easily found: The Dniester Conflict: Between Irredentism and Separatism, Europe-Asia Studies, Vol. 45, No. 6, Kolstø reports he was shown the lists recording the votes of residents next to their names, concluding "the anonymity of the voters had been compromised." —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 18:55, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean the following? (It's taken from here) Note the years.

On the other bank, on 1 December 1991, the Dniester declaration of independence was followed up and confirmed by an area-wide referendum. According to the official report 97.7% supported the creation of the PMR. Voter turnout was 78%. There is somewhat more reason to be skeptical about the accuracy of this information than of the results of the referendum in Tiraspol the year before. No international observers were present (as no state wanted to lend the new state with any legitimacy), and charges of fraud and intimidation have been put forth from the Moldovan side. Little concrete documentation of this has been offered, but there can be no question that the referendum was conducted in a very primitive fashion. During a visit to Tiraspol in September 1992 the present authors were shown voting lists were the "aye"s and "nay"s of the residents had been recorded. Hence, the anonymity of the voters had been compromised. There were hardly any "nay"s on the lists, but all blanks had been counted as "nay"s, we were told. The actual aye-vote, then, amounted to 76% of the electorate. While that, too, may be considered suspiciously high, reminiscent of rigged Soviet elections, it should be contrasted with the Ukrainian referendum on independence arranged on the very same day. The results here were strikingly similar: With a voter turnout of 84%, the 90.3% yes vote amounted to 75.8% of the entire electorate.

quote: Transnistria, that bastion of democracy where votes are recorded and reams of transcripts are produced showing who voted for whom to prove it is a democracy. OOPS!

Do you consider pre-1884 US, pre-1874 Canada or pre-1901 Denmark democratic countries? I do, at least partially, even though the elections in those countries were held without the secret ballots. Alaexis 19:29, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Alaexis - As has done here many times before, you take one coincidental fact and would make the WP:OR case that America, Canada, Denmark, and the PMR are sister democracies separated only by time. Your implication that the PMR is truly democratic is totally baseless. There are plenty of accounts of Transnistrians given time off from work to exercise their "patriotic" vote "appropriately." (Sorry, no bookmarks, lost with old computer, as were additional Kolstø refs. That is the article.)

     Your emphasis on years is to imply something has changed since then? Frankly, I would be embarrassed to emphasize something which verifies that Transnistrians have been trapped under the same regime for 15 years.

Illythr - Had to backtrack through chains of Emails (another case of lost bookmarks), however, I did finally find your reference for you. Smirnov used the incident to declare a state of emergency, it was denounced it as "Black Friday," etc. Perhaps someone would be so kind as to provide a proper translation for inclusion in the article (and in the Antyufeyev article), my Russian is limited to knowing how to politely apologize in Russian that I don't speak Russian--a necessity when I shop at the local Russian delicatessens:

Вернемся, например, к событиям первых чисел марта, которые послужили толчком к началу весеннего противостояния под Дубос-сарами. В ночь на 3 марта в районе Григориополя произошла трагедия. Бандиты расстреляли машину скорой помощи, которая везла в больницу роженицу. В результате погибла акушерка, были ранены водитель, роженица и другие пассажиры.

    На следующий день И. Смирнов обвинил в случившемся молдавских волонтеров и ввел чрезвычайное положение в Дубоссарском районе. 6 марта 1992 года в Тирасполе была объявлена «черная пятница», и на центральной площади города состоялась панихида по погибшим. Смирнов либо лукавил, либо сам не знал всей правды. Машину с роженицей расстреляли приднестровские чекисты (бывшие рижские омоновцы): В. Никитенко, С. Бубнов. Задачу расстрельщикам ставил лично их командир Вадим Шевцов. Об этой операции в 1993 году рассказал А.И. Лебедю, а затем озвучил на ТВ «АСКЕТ» свидетель злодеяния - Р. Сабиров.

As this is rather unflattering to the current regime, let's see how quickly the pro-PMR camp finds a reason to relegate this talk page to the archive. Out of sight, out of mind. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 00:29, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Let's recount, for example, the events of the first days of March, that had catalyzed the spring confrontation at Dubossary. In the night of the 3rd of March a tragedy occured in the Grigoriopol region. Bandits gunned down an ambulance car that carried a pregnant woman to a hospital. A midwife was killed and the driver, the woman and other passengers were wounded as a result.

Smirnov blamed the deed on Moldovan volunteers and declared the state of emergency in the Dubossary region (district?). The 6th of March 1992 was declared a "black friday", and on the central street of the city a (public) funeral was held for the dead. Smirnov had either insincere, or didn't know the whole truth himself. The car with the pregnant woman was gunned by Pridnestrovian chekists (security officers) (former members of the Riga OMON): V. Nikitenko, S. Bubnov. The task was given to the shooting team by their commander, Vadim Shevtsov, personally. R Sabirov, a witness to this heinous crime, told A.I. Lebed of it in 1993, and later recounted it on TV "ASKET".

Vecrumba, I am getting mildly annoyed with your constant bad faith rhetorics. How am I supposed to reply to this? That I believe this piece of info (along with more excerpts from the book, which I now intend to read entirely) needs to be inserted into the War of Transnistria article? To which you will promptly respond that "the pro-PMR camp" is trying to save face in a bad situation. Bah.

I personally like what I've read so far, as the author holds the Moldovan nationalists and Smirnov&Co responsible for the whole mess - a POV I share (he talks about acts of terror and provocations from both sides, aiming to demoralize the opposition, actions of Russian generals that prove beyond doubt that the 14th army did not "invade" its own home base and was at a loss about what to do in all the chaos (early on, at least, gotta read more)...and lots more). The book provides for an excellent revamping potential of the war article, which is currently not in the best of shapes, too. Too bad no English translation is available. --Illythr 02:56, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

My rhetoric is not in bad faith. I just have an issue that people contend the PMR only yearns to be free, disregarding the role of regime-sponsored terrorism against its own people by people who are still in authority there.

     Romanian ultra-nationalists seeking union with Moldova certainly ignited the spark of panic over assimilation, but...

• the historical population distribution of Transnistria is no different than that of the right bank; there's no special claim based on ethnicity for Transnistria to be separate;
• the PMR is Smirnov & Co., propped up by Russian troops and, to-date, over a billion dollars in energy subsidies;
• this could have been resolved a long time ago, it's not like there's isn't already an area in Moldova that is de jure autonomous. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 16:20, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps in taking issue with said people, though, you place to hard an emphasis on only one aspect of a complex phenomenon. Since you like Kolsto, it might be interesting for you to take a look at some of his other work in which he argues that Transnistrian “resistance to Chisinau domination is a vague, but nevertheless tangible common identity of most of its population." (See Pal Kolsto and Andrei Malgin "The Transnistrian Republic: A Case of Politicized Regionalism” in Nationalities Papers 28, no. 1 (March 1998):104.) Another recent book might also be of interest, this one has a very similar argument (which is not an endorsement on my part for the thesis of either work), namely that a distinct "regional political culture, which has emerged as a result of different historical experiences, accounts for a significant part of the variation in support for nationalist/pro-Western and Communist/pro-Russian parties and politicians" across regions of Moldova. (See: Ivan Katchanovskii, Cleft Countries: Regional Political Divisions and Cultures in Post-Soviet Ukraine and Moldova (Stuttgart: Ibidem-Verlag, 2006), 22.). The latter is a US-trained comparativist currently working in Canada (U of Toronto). jamason 19:52, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Dealing with contentious subjects

Some of the editing on this page has been fully unacceptable. It is important to establish some rules to ensure all opinions are taken into the project. Changes should be done one by one and by consensus. If someone is in a hurry, they have no place in Wiki or dealing with this subject.. It is important to establish ground rules, one being that changes done "en masse", in a block, will not be accepted and WILL be reverted at sight (regardless of their merit). Simply because it contradicts the principle of collaboration. Is there some agreement on this ? Buffadren 14:08, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I thought that was how Wikipedia worked in the first place. You're stating the obvious. These rules are already in place. Just follow them. ALEX —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Halfsense (talk • contribs) 16:43, 4 April 2007 (UTC).

Glad to see Mr Buffadren decides who should be rejected the right to edit Wikipedia

I am shure you like only Mauco, who had plenty of time... so much time he even devided it with many accounts...

I decided nothing. I am trying to edit the page with you.Buffadren 12:43, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

To Alaexis: I am shure you will agree we don't use de facto independent repubilc... because Barry Bartmann used it; and we don't reference to his book because he is more renowned than others, but we reference to his book because he used this special phrasing you like so much...Dl.goe 20:42, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

P.S. I have to take a Wikibreak; a long one, if I have the will ! I've put a template in the article. Please remove it only if you find my concernes absurd, or after a third oppinionDl.goe 20:42, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Moldovan Interests

The article does not deal with Moldova's position. It nneds a section to outline and detail Molodva's position and perhaps Russian invovement. It is not enoght to state that Transnistria is within its borders. Buffadren 15:37, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Human Rights and Crime

These sections are damaging because they are so farfetched. The levels of crime and human rights abuses are no higher or lower than any other european country and I say the motive for their inclusion here is more political than out of a desire to establish a page to fully explain the Transnistrian region. It may be in everyones interest to swap these sections with a proper political report on Moldova's efforts to united the regions. Buffadren 15:46, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

"Transnistria Arms Trafficking" by Channel 4

It ends in mid-dialogue... Where is the rest? Part 4?

Hm, an interesting documentary. Not nice, like the BBC one, but still interesting. Ilascu's looking pretty good for someone who's been sentenced to death and kept in prison for some 10 years. He actually spoke Russian to the reporters, something he absolutely refused to do during his trial!

Anyways, an fairly good propaganda piece with numerous claims presented as facts, a few accidental mistranslations and very little in the way of proof. "The school that was forbidden to teach in Moldovian" mistake is getting mildly annoying already. PS: The filming of Antjufeev was really cool! The villain smokes. :-D --Illythr 16:12, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

+1. Alaexis 17:23, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

The Evel Antjufeev smoke. I like it too. As you can see part 3 have been uploaded just recently. I am waiting for continuation too ... I dont see any propaganda or errors in this documentary - everything is so true. Scary faces, frighten people, welcome to Transnistria. My full respect to the creators. EvilAlex 16:55, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Exactly - scary faces. About the only nice faces you see are those of children in that Moldovan school. In fact, the whole entourage (music, the stuff the guy speaks etc) is set up as sinister as possible. "A holdup in plain day", eh? Those guys are pros, but I think they still lack a certain... finesse. --Illythr 17:47, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

If you expected to see a happy face in Transnistria then you well be greatly disappointed. Why should they smile? People have been brutally ruled by a iron regime. EvilAlex 19:04, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

About a third of my former USM co-eds are from Transnistria. Never heard of a brutal regime, they did. Crime, yes; corruption, sure, lots of; but brutal regime? About the same as in Chisinau, they say. --Illythr 20:17, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Of course the government in Chişinău has many problems regarding human rights. Political opponents are arrested in Chişinău as well as in Tiraspol arrest of 8 members of Hyde park organisation, arrest of member of Liberal Party and PROTV team. This is not a reason to pretend that in Transnistria opposition is operating freely, as "Tiraspol Times" is saying.--MariusM 20:45, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Certainly, but if you look at the article about Moldova, you will note, that it's human rights section is small and tidy (although most of those US reports are about Moldova in general) and its crime section is nonexistent, even though Chisinau (dunno about other areas) has had its share of killings (don't think there was any terrorism, though) and anti-semitic incidents. --Illythr 21:31, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Be bold and add source information about arrest of political opponents in Chişinău, in Moldova article as well. Nobody will revert you as long as you add correct information.--MariusM 21:42, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

USM Аааааа... какой факультет?
Re:"Never heard of a brutal regime" - well if you live in Transnistria and never criticizes the regime, goes to demonstration, blindly fallows orders - then you will never have the problem. The regime will protects the slaves. And in contradiction if in a phone conversation you will say something that displeases the government then in a mild case wait for a call back (my personal experience) and in a hard case you will have to leave the country. EvilAlex 20:47, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

"Matematica şi Informatica." Actually, they were quite critical of Smirnov and his clique (well, those that I had actually talked to about this) - like in Moldova, crime there is mostly concentrated around families of political leaders. But they were not aware of oppression, that was not connected to criminal interests (like forcibly nationalizing a private business just to sell it to some shady characters, again, same as in Moldova). Their general position was "Yeah, Smirnov sucks, but there is no realistic alternative, and being annexed to Moldova sucks even more." Hm, your experience refers to the early '90s, right? I think things have calmed down a bit. In fact, I've discussed some of these things via ICQ recently, and they all seem to be okay. Well that, or the MGB doesn't have access to the ICQ traffic yet. --Illythr 21:31, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

The Chanell 4 documentarry part 2 presented a taxi driver telling that if you criticise Smirnov regime you can have troubles. It seems that the taxi driver has a different perception of reality than Illythr's former colleagues. Do you think that this French Television chanell is controlled by Moldovan propaganda machine?--MariusM 21:42, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Nope, but they do pursue the goal to paint the place black, for some reason. They overdid the theatrics, IMHO. Still, what the driver said, although qualifies as hearsay, was most likely correct, too, more or less. Transnistria ain't a paradise. My point is that it isn't Auschwitz, either. --Illythr 21:57, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Re:"annexed to Moldova sucks even more" - never heard that. In fact many people compare live now and live before 90 and they see that before (when Transnistria was part of Moldova) was much better. Have you ask yourself a question: Why population decreases in Transnistria. Where all young people? If is so nice and so cool why do they leave? EvilAlex 22:12, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I found that somewhat surprising myself. I guess all the mutual propaganda is having an effect. You are quite a bit off with your comparison, though. The "life then" has nothing to do with Transnistria being part of the MSSR, but everything to do with MSSR itself being part of the USSR. That's why the Communists had won so decisively in Moldova back in 2001. As for population - the same sad thing is happening in Moldova... --Illythr 22:32, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Not quite the same. Between censuses, Moldova's population decrease with 6,6%, Transnistria's population decreased with 18%. Same with Human rights, problems on both sides of Dniester, but in Transnistria situation is worse.--MariusM 22:47, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Can anyone pinpoint the actual name of the TV channel? There's apparently no "Channel 4" in France and France 4 symbol looks different. --Illythr 17:58, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

at the beginning it says:

Une production CAPA
avec la participation de CANAL+
et de Planete 

Un film de
Xavier Deleu

Transnistria:
Trafficking arms 
on Europe's Doorstep

EvilAlex 18:51, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Hm, missed the intro. So, what should we write in the attribution part? --Illythr 20:17, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

When was this documentary made? Alaexis 04:32, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

No political party is banned, opposition newspaper operates freely?

This is the text readded by Alaexis, I have doubt on it. Is based on "Tiraspol Times" propaganda website. We have other sources about real degree of political freedom in Transnistria, like the french documentary discussed above, where a taxi driver is telling that you can have troubles if you criticise the Smirnov regime. Let's not hide reality in Wikipedia.--MariusM 21:49, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Regarding unionist political party, in 2007 was registed the Social Democratic party led by Andrey Safonov, however its "unionist" political agenda still need to be proved, as Safonov was one of the supporters of separatism in early 1990 (he created the Olvia Press PMR press agency), also need to be proved that this party is operating freely, as Safonov faced obstacles in last presidential elections, and he accused ellection frauds.--MariusM 21:49, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

If Alaexis could provide the independent sources i mean not government supported like Tiraspol Times. Then he could prove his position. Tiraspol Times is good only to show the official Transnistrian position. EvilAlex 21:55, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

As long as you give refs to the Moldovan and Romanian sites you cannot possibly demand from me not to use PMR and Russian ones. Of course I'll search for independent sources supporting my position. Could you also find some independent sources proving that, for example, unionist parties are NOT operating freely or that Social-Democratic party is NOT really unionist. Regarding the French documentary nothing is said there about any political parties. Or have I missed anything? Alaexis 04:29, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

You present an exceptional clime that is not backed by independent sources. The only source that you presented was Tiraspol Times. As I said before Tiraspol Time has damaged reputation[1]. We can't rely on TT. EvilAlex 14:33, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Is wrong that you label a site like conflict.md as a "Moldovan" one, while it was made with the support of OSCE mission in Moldova. Regarding "Tiraspol Times", we know that one of their main journalists is Karen Ryan, who seems to had in the past other problems with journalism ethic: ""Karen Ryan, you're a phony," said a Cleveland Plain Dealer editorial. She's a confused phony, however, unable to comprehend why faking the role of reporter, on behalf of a government "news release," should be questioned at all. But there's something bizarre here too. Call it her state of mind." [2]--MariusM 12:52, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Also should be mentioned that problems in registering candidature of Safonov (showing not so free operating opposition) were recognized even by Tiraspol Times. So, pretending that opposition is operating freely is a falacy. French documentary is showing an ordinary man fearing to openly express opposition against Smirnov, we will make shame of Wikipedia if we write that opposition is operating freely.--MariusM 12:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

conflict.md does claim some affiliation with OSCE but it has to be proven by some reference to OSCE itself. Until it's proven it's just a Moldovan site and the info taken from it cannot be put into the article in a same manner as the info from genuinely independent sources. Alaexis 15:25, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

But OSCE never denied affiliation with conflict.md. And conflict.md does not have any black spots (like TT[3]) EvilAlex 15:32, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I've sent a letter to OSCE enquiring about their relationship with conflict.org.md. I'll write what they'll answer (if they will, that is). Alaexis 15:59, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Is conflict.md, not conflict.org. Anyhow, we are not obliged to wait the following 3 years until you will receive an answer from OSCE, to include refferences from this source in Wikipedia. If you find somewhere a source questioning the credibility of conflict.md you can show it in this talk page.--MariusM 19:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Killings

If there is no objection I will remove the 'Killings' section. Buffadren 12:45, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

There are objections, this section is relevant and it was part of the article for long time.--MariusM 13:29, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Killings happen in every country but only Transnistria has its own special 'Killings' section. The political motive behind this may take away from the rest of the article. Buffadren 13:58, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Not in every country bombs explodes in troleybuses or minibuses or political leaders are shot dead. Is relevant for the article.--MariusM 14:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Most countries have had political leaders shot. Would you like a list? Even your own country's execution of Nicolae Ceauşescu following a farce show trial does not get a mention on the Romania page nor do the other incidents. Do you have another reason for keeping this in because I need something stronger than your position as it stands. Buffadren 14:55, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Ceauşescu's death happened 17 years ago, Neumoin death this year and bus explosions half year ago. It was a consensus to include those facts in the article.--MariusM 15:07, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Even so, it is not in keeping with wiki norms. If nobody else objects I will remove it or move it somewhere more suited. Buffadren 15:26, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

No other editor aproved your move, while this section was previously approved by anybody else.--MariusM 15:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Keep this section, this section is relevant. EvilAlex 15:50, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Move the section to Crime in Transnistria. And some relevant stuff into the Tiraspol article. It might be prudent to leave some kind of summary here, though. Not even Iraq and Israel (where much greater acts of terror and killings occur on a regular basis have such a section). --Illythr 22:42, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Dikarka 18:01, 10 April 2007 (UTC)Pridnestrovie is most of the times very peaceful. If you include killings here but not in other countries, it is undue weight. It doesn't need to be deleted, but put it only on the Crime in Transnistria page for those people who are interested in these things. BUT..I'm shocked..you write about us and forget about numerous terracts and murders in the countries all over the world..it's not objective

You are free to add whatever relevant edits you believe in other countries articles.--MariusM 18:10, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

You seem to have misunderstood what undue weight is; undue weight becomes an issue when there is doubt it actually happened.--Domitius 18:10, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. From WP:NPOV#Undue_weight. Just compare the sizes of the various sections to see the trend. If not for the history section, this article may be safely renamed to "List of crimes and human rights violations in Transnistria".

But make no mistake, crime, especially state-level crime must remain an important part of the article, just not as a "directory of things done or supposedly done". --Illythr 22:42, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Political climate

From the french documentary discussed above, a quote about the political climate, as described by a Russian taxi driver to the french journalists team: "There are no journalists who have freedom of speech. Nobody can speak out. I can't. If I said something they could come for me tommorow and take me where no one would find me. And no one would complain. No one has any rights here" [4]. We should include also this quote from the french documentarry. We can add also a quote from a teacher from the Moldavian school in Tiraspol: "Moldavian here means something humiliating. It's as we are an inferior race. You can tell imediatelly. It's the way they say it: You, Moldavian. It immediatelly tells you, you're the lowest of the low in the region". Also some quote from the school principal can improve the article: "I'm afraid. People are afraid. It's a dictatorship. You know why I compared North Korea with Transnistria? Because the power is passed from father to son. Isn't the same with us? Smirnov and his sons and his whole family. (...) Our republic is Smirnov republic". French documentary is a better source than Tiraspol Times.--MariusM 15:07, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Full support plus i could add some citations from Transnistrian online newspaper "ЧЕЛОВЕК И ЕГО ПРАВА" - "Man and his rights": "Сейчас в государственных СМИ обществу навязывается только одна точка зрения, исходящая от исполнительной власти", "Другим общественно - политическим организациям, которые имеют свои взгляды, отличающиеся от взглядов исполнительной власти, доступа в государственные СМИ не предоставляют."[5]
Translation: Now in the state media is only one point of view controlled by the state. All others political organizations whose opinion differs does not have the access to the state media. EvilAlex 16:17, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

You two guys are not from Transnistria, nor am I but I can confirm that that's completely untrue. The page will lose all reason if you insert that type of edit. . Buffadren 16:28, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

How can you confirm it? The "Man and his rights" thing looks credible to me. The sources in the documentary, on the other hand, are unreliable. --Illythr 23:07, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

You said that what the driver told in the documentary is correct [6]. I added it. I refrained from adding other quotes from the documentary as I don't want to offend the NPOV sensor of Illythr. I see also that you refrain to comment the accusations of wrong translation raised against EvilAlex. May I know why? We (non-Russian speakers) should know who is of bad faith on this talk page.--MariusM 11:06, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Marius, my personal opinion is not a "reliable source". Neither is yours, or that of the nameless and faceless man in the documentary. --Illythr 18:16, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Your translation is also incorrect, that is not what it says in Russian. Buffadren 16:36, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

The translation is indeed off, and the overall quality is rather poor (bad choice of words and syntax). But the general idea is conveyed, IMHO - The POV of the stateowned media is determined only by the POV of the state. --Illythr 18:32, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I am from Transnistria, I am from Bendery. If you disagree with translation then please provide alternative. I only want to write the true. The truth will set you free. EvilAlex 16:41, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

As usual your translation is not only inaccurate (I don't know purposefully or not) but also contains 3(!) mistakes in 3 lines. Alaexis 16:47, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

stop criticizing! Provide your translation. EvilAlex 16:50, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

The current rate here is 300 r./1800 symbols (including spaces). Alaexis 17:00, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Dikarka 18:18, 10 April 2007 (UTC)This movie is not around reality. It is fiction. Did they pay these actors to say these things? It is not a reliable source and has nothing to do with my country

posting a film made by Canal+ on YouTube is a copyright violation or quite likely to be so. I think that this reference has to be removed for this particular reason. Alaexis 11:23, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Your real reason is that you don't like what the film is saying about Transnistria. If it is a copyright violation this is a problem of youtube not of Wikipedia. Wikipedia is only giving refferences to the film, as it gives refferences to many other copyrighted sources. Wikipedia server don't host the movie.--MariusM 11:44, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I suppose you can't read my thoughts so please refrain from stating what are my real intentions in future.

Obviously Wikipedia must not give references to material that is illegal. For example there are no links to torrents in the articles about movies, there are no links to the copyright-protected songs in the music-related articles. Alaexis 11:53, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Please provide proves that youtube material is illegal. BTW, your mind is an open book for me.--MariusM 11:57, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Isn't the burden of proving on the person who brought the ref?

For one thing there is no statement where canal+ agrees its movie to be posted on youtube. Alaexis 12:05, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

The burden of prove is on the person who claim the material is illegal. We assume good faith and can not accuse somebody of illegal conduct without proves - there is the assumption of inocence. As I say, we are linking to a lot of newspapers and news organisations which have obviously copyrighted materials, but, as long as Wikipedia server don't host the materials is not against Wikipedia policies. Giving links and refferences to copyright material is O.K.--MariusM 12:10, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Sites that violate the copyrights of others per contributors' rights and obligations should not be linked. See WP:EL#Restrictions_on_linking - youtube is specifically mentioned there btw. Alaexis 12:27, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

We don't know if in this particular case youtube violated copyright laws.--MariusM 12:32, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Don't say 'we'. I do.

For one thing there is no statement where canal+ agrees its movie to be posted on youtube.

Someone holds the copyright unless they have been explicitly placed in the public domain.Wikipedia:Copyrights#Image_guidelines. The same is for videos. Alaexis 12:44, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Canal+ can sue youtube if copyright was violated. Until a court decision will not prove youtube is guilty we can not assume that.--MariusM 12:55, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Do you know what 'explicitly' means? Alaexis 13:15, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

There is no official Wikipedian polices that ban linking to youtube site. And also you dont know for sure if youtube breached any copyright laws. EvilAlex 15:35, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

EvilAlex, do you know what does the word 'explicitly' mean? Alaexis 16:05, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

yes i know, and also i know what "no official Wikipedian polices" mean too. EvilAlex 16:26, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

This part was removed by Alaexis: "A Tiraspol resident explained to a french journalist team: "There are no journalists who have freedom of speech. Nobody can speak out. I can't. If I said something they could come for me tommorow and take me where no one would find me. And no one would complain. No one has any rights here"French Chanel 4 documentary about Transnistria. Even if we are not allowed to put a link at youtube, we are allowed to make refference at the French documentary. Alaexis protested against the link at youtube but deleted the entire paragraph. May I know why?--MariusM 17:28, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

According to Illythr's comment in this talk page, what the Tiraspol taxi driver told is true. I refrained adding other comments from the documentarry which were not considered valid by Illythr, even while I believe that the Moldovans from Transnistria should have a voice in this article.--MariusM 17:33, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, so if I say that something is true, it automatically qualifies for inclusion into mainspace? Marius, I'm almost flattered. :-D. Ok, how about this, I think that the following is also true: With his decisive actions, General Lebed had stopped the war and later stemmed the wave of lawlessness that followed the creation of PMR. Source - Bergman, the commandant of the Tiraspol garrison in his book, provided by Vecrumba somewhere around here... --Illythr 18:16, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Well you are pretty neutral, but some time you just pushing... EvilAlex 18:32, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

See also WP:EL where is a box telling: "Notice on linking to YouTube, Google Video, and other similar sites: There is no ban on linking to these sites as long as the links abide by these guidelines". --MariusM 17:36, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

It's already written in the article that: According to OSCE, the media climate in Transnistria is restrictive and the authorities continue a long-standing campaign to silence independent opposition voices and groups.[58]. That's it. What's the point of adding anything else about it? The details should be in the appropriate articles. Alaexis 14:22, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Archiving

Okay, I've brought some live sections out of the new archive. Whoever thinks I've missed something, feel free to add more stuff back. --Illythr 23:07, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Power to the People and People's Power Parties

In my understanding, based on the source, those were two different political parties, one led by Radtchenko and one by Butchastky. Alaexis deleted one mention, claiming it was already mentioned. I believe is wrong.--MariusM 12:06, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I think so too. EvilAlex 12:13, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd be surprised if your views differed, guys :).

You are partially right here, though:

Блок левых патриотических сил Приднестровья в лице своих лидеров Александра Радченко, Николая Бучацкого, Александра Яворского, Олега Хоржана, Аллы Мишиной и других в связи с предстоящими парламентскими выборами в соседней Молдове активно проводят агитацию среди населения ПМР, призывая граждан отдать свои голоса за Коммунистическую партию Молдовы.

Министерство юстиции Приднестровской Молдавской Республики считает такую деятельность республиканского народно-патриотического общественного движения "Власть народу! За социальную справедливость!" и "Партии народовластия" незаконной и вынесло им предупреждение. http://www.olvia.idknet.com/ol27-02-01.htm

По надуманным мотивам, по иску министра юстиции ПМР В. Балала через подконтрольные ему и Президенту суды в 2003 году закрывают политическую партию «Партия народовластия», республиканское общественное движение «Власть народу!» и тем самым ликвидируют его печатный орган - газету «Глас народа». http://www.cip.nm.ru/2006/html/40/40_4.htm Alaexis 12:24, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Evil will understand (he is a native Russian speaker), but I don't.--MariusM 12:28, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I saw Alaexis accepted some mention about Ptp party, however he deleted the ban of "Glas naroda" publication, with Radcenko electoral platform. I don't understand the reason.--MariusM 12:45, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

The reason is that it's already described as numerous problems. The details should be in the appropriate article, not in the main one. Alaexis 12:48, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I would agree with it if in this article will not be included fallacies from Tiraspol Times about opposition newspapers operating freely. BTW, Moldovan newspapers in latin script are not allowed to be printed. So, we can not say that newspapers are operating freely. CHeck also the position of OSCE ("media climate is restrictive") and US Department of State - they have a totally different picture on press freedom in Transnistria. Wikipedia is in danger to lose its credibility.--MariusM 12:53, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

What about this: There are several opposition newspapers although they have limited circulation and impact according to the US Department of State report.http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2006/78828.htm? Alaexis 14:35, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Lets use the full citation in this case:"Opposition newspapers, such as Novaia Gazeta and Chelovek i yevo Prava (Man and His Rights), had limited circulation and impact. Separatist authorities harassed independent newspapers for critical reporting of the Transnistrian regime." EvilAlex 15:47, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Consider the following: There are several opposition newspapers, such as Novaia Gazeta and Chelovek i yevo Prava (Man and His Rights). According to the US Department of State report they have limeted circulation and impact and were harassed by Transnistrian authorities. Alaexis

+ "Separatist authorities harassed independent newspapers for critical reporting of the Transnistrian regime." you intentionally didnt mention this sentence. EvilAlex 13:02, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I see that you can read thoughts, just like MariusM. Consider putting the appropriate userbox to your userpage )).

This issue is quite minor. I'll append "for critical reporting of the situation in the republic" once the article is opened. Alaexis 14:49, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Kommersant: MOSCOW FED UP WITH SMIRNOV'S CONSUMER MOODS

It seems that Russians start to understand that they are putting money into a blackhole. Transnistrian people is poor, despite +billion dollars sent in the last years by Moscow (only debt for gas is 1,3 billion USD). The good part is that Smirnov family is rich. Source--MariusM 12:28, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Just a quote: "the Smolensk Square [Ministry of Foreign Affairs] and the Security Council are even beginning to ponder that, perhaps, time has come to look for a replacement to the Transnistrian president". The simple fact that Russian officials are thinking to replace a "freely ellected president" is showing how far from independence is Transnistria.--MariusM 12:42, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Tiraspol Times Risible Propaganda

Why do you have a link to such foolishness? Do many of you actually read the "news" on that site? It looks like it's written by a dull-witted marketing guru with no sense of literature and journalism who's blatantly attempting to stuff his site with key words and phrases. For instance virtually every article has the phrase, or similar, "The country, which is also known as Transnistria, Transdniester, Transdnestr, Transdniestria" stuffed into it somewhere (note: "The Country" also). And if it's now that, it's some little one liner about it being independent and has it's own money and so on etc. How many websites would stick that in every article, it's banal, and this thing claims to be some sort of news portal doesn't it?

I know I'm a new member (this is why I signed up so I could put my name to this message) and you have no reason to listen to me, but please read trough the site yourselves, every "news" item has the same laughable quality. As a site there isn't too much wrong with it if you don't plan on reading anything serious and factual but, please, for the love of journalism why do you to link to it from this page that lists this region at the top of search results? Surely there must be some ethics involved in creating an "encyclopedia"? I mean they're supposed to be serious aren't they, where people want to find facts? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by YureO (talk • contribs) 14:33, 11 April 2007 (UTC).

I think the person who wanted to link included it to show that there is two sides to every story. Not every article is like you say, YuroO. There is a front page story today http://www.tiraspoltimes.com/node/726 about Abkhazia which is interesting. Buffadren 15:29, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Well it is one of very few (and not really written by them anyways), but I do not want to get drawn into it too much. I just thought it was odd to link to such a low-quality source. It might look nice and professional, but if anyone here will take the time to read through it, anyone who is not writing for the website, I think they will see the same thing. It's your page anyways so I wont try and dictate, just that I was a little surprised is all. YureO 10:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

It's not Buffarden's page and not mine also :). The TT is useful for determining the official position of PMR. Alaexis 14:39, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

OK !!! It time to remove all references from the TT. Im sick of all Mauco puppets and lies. Buffarden, other puppet of Mauco!! Let us start from a clean version !! Catarcostica 22:11, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

You've just removed quite a bit more than referenced to TT, you know. Oh well, here we go again... :(

PS: About Buffadren: Eh, Catar, Marius has cleared that one up for you: [7]. --Illythr 22:42, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

And where did you revert to anyway? You've removed admin tags, the Religion section... I just can't make out the odds and ends in it... --Illythr 22:49, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

If we are to remove refs to TT we should also remove all the refs to Moldovan sites like conflict.md, just to be consistent. Alaexis 06:17, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Yep, I was so upset when I saw the puppet box on Buffadren.Catarcostica 15:45, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Unprotected

This article has one of the mot extensive protection logs I've seen. Furthermore, it seems that all of the parties edit warring here have either been blocked or warned for edit warring before. Consider this your last warning: I've unprotected the article and will meet any further edit warring on this page with blocks. Please use this page for polite discussion, and if that fails, seek dispute resolution. Dmcdevit·t 08:02, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I see that El C edits without any discussion...errr...--212.24.177.61 12:12, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Internal politics section

Currently in the internal politics section is written: According to Transnistrian sources, political candidates in favour of unification with Moldova are allowed to stand in elections,[9] although they rarely achieve more than 5% of the votes from the electorate.[10] (...) According to "Tiraspol Times", in 2007 the registration of an unionist political party was allowed [19]. Transnistria has announced that it will introduce the proportional representation vote counting system in its next elections in replacement of its current first past the post system.

We don't need to mention twice the claim of Transnistrian authorities about allowing candidates in favour of unification with Moldova. Once is enough and I will support the last sentence which is presenting exactly the source ("Tiraspol Times") and the moment when Social Democratic Party was registered (2007, AFTER last ellections). As I told previously in this talk page, in my opinion the "unionist" character of Social Democratic party is doubtfull. Its leader, Safonov, was a leader of separatist movement in early 1990 and he founded official PMR press agency Olvia Press. Safonov's newspaper is not an unionist one, as I understood, but is dealing mainly with human right abuses of Transnistrian authorities. Russian speakers, is any clear unionist article in Safonov's newspaper? If yes, please translate. In last presidential elections, Safonov told that a union with Moldova can be considered and it should be subject of a referendum held on both sides of Dniester. This is different than being clearly unionist, I don't know if Safonov told that an union with Moldova is desirable in the way the Moldovan parliament want to solve the Transnistrian problem. Considering his past, I will not bet on Safonov's unionism, while I know that political convictions of people can change in time and even in the rulling Moldovan Communist Party there are former leaders of Transnistrian separatism (one was witness at ECHR in Strassburg at Ilaşcu's trial). Anyhow, the plural ("candidates") has no factual support and what is missing in Transnistria is a "Moldovan" opposition. I will rephrase the sentence: In 2007 was allowed the registration of Social Democratic Party, who include in its program the possibility of talks with Moldova regarding unification.

Regarding the proportional representation system, I ask for sources.

Also, we should add the paragraph from french documentary which was deleted, as WP:EL tells that links to youtube are not prohibited. Even if we don't link to youtube (but we have no reason not to link), we still can consider french documentarry as a source.--MariusM 16:03, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I have been away from this page for three days while I was working on another article, but I see that you already made your changes [8]. In fact you didn't even wait for anyone to comment on them first. You just imposed them five (5h) hours and forty nine minutes (49m) after you posted in Talk and that is not a discussion.

I am the first here to give my opinion. My opinion is that I agree with some of your changes but not with all of them. I propose to move your changes here and let everyone get a chance to discuss them. You can put them back in when you can see that a broad segment of the community agrees with you. Buffadren 13:19, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

If you are missing 3 days you should not expect all articles will remain unchanged waiting for your return. When I missed from Wikipedia nobody waited for my return. You should tell exactly what you agree and what not and give arguments regarding your disagreements. Else, we can not even start a discussion as I don't know what you don't like in my edits and for which reasons.--MariusM 17:07, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

It wasn't just me, in fact you didn't wait for anyone else's opinions. 5 or 6 hours is not enough as long as there is an agreement on this talk page that we edit everything with consensus. There are only two things I disagree with: The French comment is from a faceless person with no name. If you include that, we can include every other non notable faceless person who says whatever he wants. That makes no sense. The second disagreement is that you don't wait for anyone else to give their opinions, but just edit as if you own the page, and then you complain when someone reverts you. I went through the page and removed things that you added without discussing first in talk. If you want them to stay please just let everyone discuss them first. Buffadren 14:58, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

There was already a discussion on this talk page about French documentary [9], we should not repeat it. As is clear that argument "linking to youtube is forbidden" is not valid, you are in minority here trying to censorship the refference to this documentary. Person is faceless because he fear of persecution if real identity is disclosed - this is the reality in Transnistria and Wikipedia should show it. There are however also people who assume overtly their disagreement with Smirnov's regime and are not faceless, do you want to include their statements?--MariusM 13:24, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Disagreement with EvilAlex

Our NPOV sensor, Illythr, expressed a while ago his wondering about the fact that I never disagree with pridnestrovian EvilAlex. The historical moment of a disagreement between us came, Evil did yesterday a revert [10] with which I disagree. In his revert he deleted the paragraph about french documentary at youtube. I was the person who added the paragraph to the article, I defended it in talk page, of course I disagree with Evil. Thanks Alaexis that you restored the paragraph, however I don't agree with your deletion of the youtube link. Is better for Wikipedia articles to have refferences (even better online refferences) and WP:EL states: "Notice on linking to YouTube, Google Video, and other similar sites: There is no ban on linking to these sites as long as the links abide by these guidelines". No reason in my view to avoid the youtube link, it was a misinterpretation of Wikipedia policies believeing that youtube is forbidden.--MariusM 08:59, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I've never said linking to youtube is always illegal. In this case it certainly is as Canal+ has not explicitly agreed to make their propaganda-movie available on the youtube. Alaexis 09:21, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Hate to disappoint you, Marius, but if you're referring to this edit by EvilAlex, it does not qualify as "disagreement": Catarcostica was mislead by the contents of the vandalized userpage of Buffadren and had reverted the article wholesale to some older version, where the documentary was not yet included (among other things). I then reverted him, explaining his error. Then EvilAlex promptly reverted me without even examining the contents of the version he reverted to, nor explanations given. --Illythr 21:39, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

GDP data

I think that updating GDP figures according to 2006 data's was already agreed in February (see [11]). If you has something against updating figures from the same source as current figures, please discuss. Otherwise, please don't revert. Also, changes of subsections headings made by User:El C in Economy section are in some way misleading, so I prefere the old ones.Beagel 15:04, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

This info is probably useful, however this article is currently in the midst of an edit war :( Wait for some time until the things settle... Alaexis 15:07, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

That makes sense to me Buffadren 19:51, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

There is no need to discuss anything with the anon vandal. This particular one is a regular here and doesn't listen to reason. Unless his vandalism gets endorsed (again), it is a simple matter of admin intervention. I intend to archive this section shortly. --Illythr 21:52, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Infobox

Infobox is original research, attributing statehood is original research, this whole article is original research and minority POVs. Why not use terminology used in real encyclopedias like Britannica?--Domitius 15:08, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

All entities have infoboxes; countries, provinces, cities, etc. Your edits (inadvertantly) amount to vandalism & I am reverting them as such. El_C 15:14, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

It's not simple vandalism, so you just violated the 3RR. That anon is not me BTW.--Domitius 15:18, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I wish I could label all edits I disagree with as vandalism and be exempt from the 3RR when reverting them. It would be great. I don't see any backing in policy though...--Domitius 15:20, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

“ During edit wars, admins should not protect pages when they are involved as a party to the dispute, except in the case of simple vandalism or libel issues against living people. ”

From the Wikipedia:Protection policy. Is it just me or has this just been violated.--Domitius 15:22, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

That anon used open proxy. Alaexis 15:24, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

That's common knowledge. What warranted full protection in the version of the admin who is a party to the content dispute? I'm still assuming good faith, because the tag El C added was the semi protection tag, so it could be a mistake.--Domitius 15:26, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not party to the dispute. It sure looks like vandalism. I'm inclined to just protect the page entirely with all the defacement & edit waring. El_C 15:27, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Utter POV.--Domitius 15:32, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, it says "SIMPLE" vandalism. If I'm not much mistaken, simple is stuff like "PENIS" and "YOA MOM"; explained removals of allegedly POV text do not qualify.--Domitius 15:34, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd suggest dropping it right now. You should know better than to make major changes to an article such as this without widespread consultation and solid consensus - removing the infobox is nothing short of disruptive without solid consensus to back you up. -- Nick ^t 15:41, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Nick is also an uninvolved admin, if he feels my edits amount to a 3RR breach, I'll self-revert. El_C 15:54, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I am not —nor have I ever been— party to the content dispute. I am an uninvolved admin and I deem that the removal of the infobox is disruptive. El_C 15:40, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm likewise an uninvolved admin. I've had a look at the infobox issue for myself following an earlier request on WP:AN, and I agree with El C. We use similar infoboxes for other unrecognized entities such as Abkhazia and Nagorno-Karabakh, for instance. -- ChrisO 23:13, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Also please note, that Gagauzia has the same infobox as well. The or part in the name is there for a reason. --Illythr 23:24, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

"Infobox Country or territory". Quite! -- ChrisO 23:55, 15 April 2007 (UTC)