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Mission: Impossible – Fallout	Review it now
I'm God	Review it now
You Belong with Me	Review it now
Hotline Miami 2: Wrong Number	Review it now
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For a Table-of-Contents only list of candidates, see Wikipedia:Featured articles/Candidate list

Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games

The Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games FAC is currently on hold over the inclusion of a full listing of games based on Olympic events. The Video games Project has not been able to come to a clear consensus and Sandy has suggested we get some input here. For those interested, the previous discussion at WT:VG is here. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 14:32, 5 September 2008 (UTC))[reply]

I don't think the list is necessary. The prose does enough by itself to explain the various events. This is before considering that the list may well be a violation of WP:NOT. Giants2008 (17-14) 20:56, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've mentioned before that I think the events list is necessary for the article to be comprehensive. It's essentially a quick view of the entirety of the game. If you're going to mention specific events which are exclusive to platforms in the prose, why are you negating to mention those which are similar? Groups of events are mentioned, some such as table tennis are very accurate, yet others such as athletics and aquatics could mean a wide range of different sports. With a list, you can definitively state, "this is it". - hahnch e n 21:42, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't it's necessary if all it is, is a list with no further info. BUC (talk) 21:18, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just a succinct summary of the arguments: Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games is a video game which features a selection of Olympic events. I have argued that a listing of featured events is essential in achieving a comprehensive article. Others have argued that the listing of events is outside of Wikipedia's scope and fails WP:NOT (not a guide). - hahnch e n 21:42, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the list is necessary, as the article already says the games that can be played are based on real Olympic games. I'm unfamiliar with VG articles, but do the articles for Need for Speed list each car and modification? Does the article for Sonic the Hedgehog list each level? Do the soccer games list each playable player? Does Rock Band list each song? If so, then the list might need to stay to keep consistency within the project. However, if they don't, this one shouldn't either. And even if they do, times change and WP must change with them. Maybe it is time to stop being a players' guide. I dunno.. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 22:27, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's a mix. I would argue against lists of levels in Sonic say, as it has no real world context, and the names of the levels have no meaning. We don't always have player/team/track lists if the feature represented has no real relevance to the gameplay such as which 3cm tall football player you're controlling. On the other hand, we do have featured lists such as List of songs in Guitar Hero II. My argument has been throughout that the events define the gameplay, and because of the real world context, they aid in understanding the contents of the game. Mario and Sonic is a sports simulation game. "What sports?" is a valid question that should be answered. - hahnch e n 23:33, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But doesn't "Olympic sports" suffice? I've never watched more than a few minutes of Olympic competitions the past decade, but I know that there are track and field events similar to what takes place in high school gym. I know we're writing for the layman, but I'm sure most everyone has some idea of what normal events take place at the Olympics. Plus the few mentioned in the article help to paint that picture too. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 00:13, 6 September 2008 (UTC))[reply]

I don't think "Olympic sports" does suffice. I don't get why we're using snippets within the prose to help paint a picture, when we can just show them what the picture is. Aquatics can mean any of 46 events at the 2008 Olympics, simply stating which 3 specific aquatic events are featured gives a lot more clarity, the reader no longer "has some idea" of what the events are, he knows what they are. - hahnch e n 00:39, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but how much more does the reader really gain by knowing what they are? (Guyinblack25 ^talk 14:16, 6 September 2008 (UTC))[reply]

I don't really mind and my support stands either way. —Giggy 02:40, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
From what I can see: hahnchen seems like the only one strongly pushing for the list of events. A consensus isn't everyone agreeing: it's the majority. At one point, I removed the list: but he just reverted it back claiming discussion was still going on. However, from the discussions I've seen (at the FAC discussion and Video Game project talk page): not listing the events appears to be the current consensus in my view. I don't want to accuse him of bad faith, but it just seems like he wont drop the issue until people change their mind to his viewpoint on this matter. RobJ1981 (talk) 23:11, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Capped Comments

For a few days now I am unable to unhide capped comments. Is it just me? Its very annoying. (IE on XP). Ceoil ^sláinte 21:57, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, here (IE on Vista, but can go to IE on XP on my old laptop if you want me to check); do you have a sample page? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:58, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, S Johnson for one, but all of them at the moment. Worked ok for me when I just there tried it now on Firefox, so if nobody else has same prob I'll just archive this. I likely just pressed the wrong button somewhere. Ceoil ^sláinte 22:16, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, it does the same for me. See my userpage as an example.Mitch32^(UP) 22:20, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm able to open the hides on your userpage. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:22, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No can do on Mitch's talk. Looks like somebody has been messing with the template. How does one find the code for such a thing. Ceoil ^sláinte 22:28, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You might post at WP:VPT (or see if others have already raised it there); also, mention that others on IE7, Vista have no problem. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:23, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Works for me on Mitch's user page. Gary King (talk) 23:31, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Works for me, as well. However the hide caps have been screwy the past few days, as a number of editors on IRC have complained about similar problems. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 20:24, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

← I found this edit which may have caused the screwiness. It was undone two days later. Gary King (talk) 15:17, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reasons for Supporting an article should be compulsory!

I find it a little bit unfair and inaccurate that the FA decisions work this way. Opposing an article for no specified reasons at all is considered invalid and enters close grounds of inappropriate behavioral issues. The oppositions must be specifically stated within the article. On the contrary, why is it allowed for users to merely write -Support- with no additional specific reasons? I've seen numerous FACs pass because of short and simple supports. Yet why does it work this way? This can coincide with my previous claim of biased decisions based on preference and racial acceptance. When reviewers support an article, they should state why exactly it is worthy of FA anymore than another similar rated article. In other words, which criteria does it follow completely and how well does it abide by it? For example, you could say "SUPPORT - well written and comprehensive, especially compared to other similar subject FA pages. And it's so well/consistently referenced etc etc". Supporting without reasons is blatantly unfair, especially when you consider that a lot of FA comments really are based on preference. Supporting based on personal preference is definitely not valid or neutral, yet the majority of articles are covertly experiencing it in the sense that no reasons are provided for supports. This would actually ensure that FA is actually a compilation of WP's best work, not most popular or best-looking. Don't get me wrong, I've seen a fair bit of reasons for Support, but definitely more simple supports without explanations. Domiy (talk) 08:55, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't a support without a reason stated just assume (if it's coming from a user whom we know has some familiarity with the FA criteria) that it's saying "Support - I looked at the article and it appears to meet all the criteria"? Giggy (talk) 10:45, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Giggy. If author and reviewer are in agreement, there is often little to say. Actually this is how scientific peer review also works. If the reviewer says nice paper (article), no comments, this is very good; however if the reviewer criticises the paper (article) the reviewer should substantiate these comments to allow the author to rewrite, or allow the author to formulate a rebuttal when the reviewer has misread or misjudged the issue. Arnoutf (talk) 10:51, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly - what is gained by replacing Support with Support because it meets all the FA criteria? jimfbleak (talk) 10:57, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pssst. Come a little closer. Closer. I wanna tell ya a secret. Life ain't fair. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 11:59, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I echo Jim's comments. =Nichalp «Talk»= 12:03, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

what is gained by replacing Support with Support because it meets all the FA criteria? Pretty much the same thing that is gained from saying Oppose because it breaches the FA criteria. As I said earlier, stating you support an article because it is in particular uniquely distinct from the average type of page on WP ensures that all FAs truly are WP's best work, not just a list of articles which were promoted due to the popularity and preference. Its quite simple, if a reviewer doesn't have sufficient or valid comments to back up his support, then his comment is just as useless as an unreferenced statement. It would be quite unfair for me to step in the middle of a brawl and support one of the fighters merely because I think he is a better person or if he is the same nationality as me. As crazy as it sounds, this is exactly what is happening on WP's FA nominations. Whether you want to admit it or not, a lot of users notice its visibility. I'm just trying to put a stop to it with this strategy. Domiy (talk) 12:09, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But people can easily support for the very reasons you cite as correct reasons, without actually stating them. Conversely, people can say they support because it meets criteria when they're actually supporting their friends articles, or whatever ("popularity contest"). I don't think forcing people to add a reason helps much in this regard. Giggy (talk) 12:13, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hence the glory of having an actual human decider for the FA process (the Raul user guy who makes the decisions). Clearly, if somebody supports an article based on popularity but tries to cover it up by stating that they actually support it because of a certain characteristic or feature, then this can easily be noticed. I'm sure the time can/would be taken to follow up and check if the claimed features which lead to the support are actually uniquely present in the article. If they are not, then the supporting comment can be disregarded. From what I know of FA's, they are getting more and more based on preference. But from the actual description page, it states that FA are rare forms of WP's best work. Old Trafford] is currently under nomination and gained numerous supports towards the closing stages of the article. Yet I went in and by far had the easiest decision to make...I opposed right away because the amount of issues I saw were ridiculous. POV, possible copyright, referencing, layout and structure and even information quality/quantity were all very poorly met. I can assure anyone that there would be no support if it werent an English article, furthermore the stadium of one of the most popular English clubs. How much more evidence do we need. The supports were all actually short ones with no reasons as well. Domiy (talk) 12:52, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You raised three valid, actionable minor issues. Graham Colm ^Talk 13:26, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think on the whole the reason for promotion is more about the absence of opposes, rather than the presence of supports. I have never supported an article, simply because I only look at criteria three, and you need more than one criteria to promote. The process is not a !vote, but a measure of weighted arguments Fasach Nua (talk) 12:38, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly, it's not a vote. Old Trafford is just one of over 150 FACs I've reviewed this year and the process, although often enjoyable, takes up a lot of time. When I support an article my comments are often short. In this case I made about ten edits to the article before adding my support. I like to do this when I have time because it's better than leaving a shopping list of nit-picks on the FAC page. User:SandyGeorgia has to read all the comments. FAC pages are becoming too long, often longer than the candidate. I see no point in making them longer just to state the obvious. Graham Colm ^Talk 13:17, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can think of a situation where it would be useful to justify a support. I've always been curious to know what is in the mind of editors who Support an article right after Ealdgyth posts a long list of questionable sources or image reviewers post a string of images that don't comply with image policy. Is it because the reviewer doesn't care, or thinks it's someone else's job to deal with the policy issue of WP:V on a FAC that gains Support? I really wonder what I'm supposed to do with FACs that get a string of Supports right after a long list of very iffy, often non-reliable sources or images that violate policy, particularly when the Supporter hasn't stated why s/he is supporting an article that potentially violates core policies. Should we really be promoting articles that violate WP:V policy? I'd actually appreciate it if the editors who do this would explain their reasoning. They don't notice, they don't care about that aspect of WIAFA or Wiki policy, or they think someone else should sort that matter? It appears lately that FAC is assuming that it's Ealdgyth's and image reviewers' "job" to enforce policies on every single FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:18, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've sometimes supported an article because I knew it well from having been the copyeditor or peer-reviewer. Occasionally I've given my support at FAC before all of the larger issues raised by others were resolved. I've assumed that the nominator would resolve them. I see from this discussion that it makes more sense to wait until the big issues are resolved or to help resolve them and then come in with support (or not). It would then be possible to say something like, "Excellent article, copyedited by yours truly, further improved during FAC". Finetooth (talk) 19:40, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

These Supports before all issues have been resolved put me in the spot of 1) reading minds (did the reviewer not care that non-reliable sources were used, not look, or does the reviewer disagree with the evaluation of the sources or images and Supports anyway); 2) letting FACs run indefinitely until issues are resolved; 3) archiving FACs with multiple Supports and no Opposes because policy is violated IMO; or 4) raising the issues myself. Are items 1), 3) and 4) really a role that the community expects the FAC director or delegate to assume or is the FAC director/delegate expected to promote whatever y'all Support, even if there are clear and unresolved issues? I'm wondering why reviewers don't say something like, "I will support once other issues raised are resolved", so I'll at least know the intent of their declaration and whether they have even considered our image and verifiability policies. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:07, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your predicament Sandy but FAC reviewing, like everything we do here, is a team effort. Image copyright, (unless they are homemade), is a minefield. For example, it might be OK to use a picture of the Eifel Tower at night on en.wikipedia, but it would not be allowed on Commons, because of Freedom of Panoramma issues. I think it's asking too much of FAC reviewers to be experts on copyright——doing so will drive them away; the last thing we need. Same with sources; I don't trust anything that's not been printed on paper by a reputable publisher, but I can't raise this as an objection at FAC, and rightly so. I've always, and wrongly assumed it seems, that you knew that my comments were adressing a specific criterion or two and that you would see the bigger picture before deciding to pr/ar. As always here this discussion has drifted away from the intial point made way above: that I and another reviewer had supported the candidature of Old Trafford without saying why. I wrote my response to this earlier. Graham Colm ^Talk 20:51, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see it as straying off topic :-) You shouldn't have to justify a support, but in cases when editors support over other policy opposes, I'm curious why and I need to place them in the context of policy issues raised by others. Another reason I don't believe the discussion is straying off topic is that Domiy raises the issue of Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Croatia national football team/archive3, which throughout all of its FACs, has not yet resolved sourcing issues. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:13, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football#Croatia national football team for another comment on the same matter. Woody (talk) 21:24, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Sandy, and Woody. I hope all this not because of the taste of sour grapes. I need time to think about this. Graham Colm ^Talk 21:50, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

While you do that, it might be worthwhile to know that there are a list of reasons as to why Croatia national football team has failed numerous times without issues being resolved. I don't want to start another racial assumption here (although it is obvious that it can be based on personal preference) but the source issues actually were resolved at FAC. I was asked as to why Javno (one of Croatia's leading newspapers) and About.com were reliable sources. My arguments were requested to be sourced, in other words, I needed to provide evidence as to the fact checking or the process of content release of the websites at question. I did so for both of them by linking their submission, policy and other criteria on content which proved they were reliable. However, the issue was never agreed upon as most of the users (including the one who actually requested the source verifiability) never replied; they just kept on pointing out other nonexistent issues. But to get on topic, I remain that it is unfair that a lot of articles are receiving Support's without reason. As you said Sandy, it helps your cause a lot and can silence any biased issues.Domiy (talk) 22:16, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For what it is worth, a support without any previous opposes can hardly give an explanation, but I agree with Sandy that it might be very useful if a support after an oppose would give some reasoning why it supports in spite of existing opposes (e.g. the supporting editor disagrees with oppose reasons, the supporting editor thinks oppose reasons are unreasonably strict on very minor point (very best article needed for FA is not the same as a perfect article). I think we should not make a guideline on this (as that would only increase bureaucracy and in some case may not be relevant as I argued above requiring conditional application of the rule ie more bureaucracy). We might add a line to such effect somewhere in the project page as a suggestion. Arnoutf (talk) 22:24, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think giving reasons for one's support is a very good idea, particularly because we cannot all evaluate every article on every criteria. For example, I read Group (mathematics) and commented on its accessibility to a lay audience, which I feel is an important part of 1a, but there is no way that I am capable of commenting on that article's comprehensiveness - my knowledge is way too limited. Therefore, in my support statement, I made it very clear exactly what criteria I evaluated the article on. Other times, I have relied on previous reviewers to decide a WP:RS argument because the debate was about popular music sources and I really don't know enough to enter that debate and I didn't have enough time to familiarize myself with the debate to make an informed opinion - therefore, once the sourcing debate was resolved, I reviewed the article and made it absolutely clear that I was relying on other editors' judgment regarding the sources. These kinds of statements, I feel, are imperative at FAC. We need to know what criteria each reviewer has actually considered. It seems, for example, that most reviewers just ignore the image criteria. If reviewers are supporting without having reviewed the images, they should say so. Such statements would help us all figure out what criteria have actually been considered during the review process. Awadewit (talk) 15:06, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I also try to give reasons for my support of an article. They are usually general, such as I enjoyed reading the article and it made me want to learn more about the topic (which above all, is my primary standard for FAs if everything is backed up by reliable sources). If the article provokes further thought then I try to share that at the FAC. However, listing reasons for a support similar to listing actionable oppose issues may reach the ridiculous. I don't think I would want to spend the time listing all the things I think are good or right about the article. That would be silly. --Moni3 (talk) 15:20, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WT:WPMOS

Sandy has been asking nicely for a while now for us to re-start WP:WPMOS to rationalize the style guidelines. I've done that, and I'm giving it a slant that might be slightly alarming for FAC people: I want the widest participation possible, and I'd like for us to assume going in that FAC people (which included me up to now, but I have to be strictly "FAC-neutral" for the duration) are going to lose a few rounds. If not, then GA people and wikiproject people might continue to assume that there's no point in showing up, on the theory that FAC people will continue to win on all points (I don't buy the theory, but it's a common perception); and the result of that will be that GAN people continue to pay attention (officially) to only 6 of the style guidelines and some wikiprojects will pay attention to fewer than that; and the result of that is that we'll have very few people who can do a good job with copyediting all 30000 WP:1.0 articles, because if other people aren't reading the style guidelines or discussions on those pages, then we'll continue to see results like the 30000 articles in WP:V0.7 (which is not pretty, let me tell you). So: please visit WT:WPMOS. I'll warn you that it's going to be a lot to read by the time everyone has had their say; I pledge that I am trying to mention only those things that I know for certain people care a great deal about, and I try to say what needs to be said in the fewest words possible, because it's a lot. It's important, it's hard if you don't know the style guidelines (so please consider volunteering if you are somewhat familiar with them), and it's somewhat urgent because of WP:V0.7. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 19:46, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Without even having visited or peeked yet, Dan, what needs to be done there has nothing to do with FAC, GAN or any Project. The first order of business should be bookkeeping. Get a summary list of all of the duplicate and redundant and contradictory pages before even beginning to think about what to do about them. If you all aren't taking that approach, you're just going to get more bickering, IMO. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:13, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, but on the other hand, I look myself and also ask other people what their perception is about areas of overlap, a lot. This isn't instead of, it's in addition to. And I disagree that this isn't about avoiding contradiction and overlap; I'll add a section called Overlap there and explain why. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 20:43, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

IMNSHO, if you don't have an approach to the approach, a way to organize the work needed, it's going to go nowhere quickly, and degenerate into bickering among the various WikiProjects who all have their preferred MoS page. An evaluation of what the current pages are and where they stand is first: which overlap, which are redundant for starters. MoS discussions have a way of very quickly running into WP:TLDR; that should be avoided. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:46, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

SandyG is right. Many of us, including me, don't consider ourselves to be primarily FA, GA or project people. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 20:50, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, that's a strange and divisive way of viewing editors. Also, if the first priority "is a detailed copyedit and 'certification' of the 30,000 articles" of some off-Wiki DVD, IMNSHO, the most urgent boat has already been missed. Rationalization, consolidation and cleanup of MoS to something useful is the most urgent task before a WikiProject, and editing specific articles to comply with the unintelligible beast that MoS has become shouldn't even be part of MOSCO or on the radar screen until MoS is cleaned up. I suspect MOSCO will continue to be dormant if the goal isn't to finally rationalize, consolidate and clean up MoS, starting with a simple evaluation of where the redundancies and contradictions exist. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:54, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I completely second Sandy's comments. The MOS must be streamlined before it is completely ignored (instead of just 98% of the time). Karanacs (talk) 20:57, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Malleus, I don't mean that it's true that there are FA, GA and wikiproject people; I mean that that's a perception, and a very important one. Feel free to clarify that, especially at WT:WPMOS. Sandy and Karanacs: no problem, let's see if we can get whatever volunteers show up to focus on streamlining first; it's a perfectly reasonable request and should go over well. Still: don't sell this short until you see what happens; I believe some very pleasant surprises are in store. Oh, and you are SO right about missing the boat, but rationalizing Wikipedia's business plan is far, far above my paygrade. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 21:14, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I see it as a matter of whether you want to teach people to fish, or feed them yourself. When we're already short-staffed everywhere, why aim to clean up 30,000 articles rather than building a solid, rational and cohesive MoS that more editors will respect so that they'll be more likely to do it themselves? I have a hard time getting behind a Project that starts off expressing a goal of bringing 30,000 article to compliance with an ever-changing contradictory and redundant MoS beast. Fix the beast first, and they will come. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:53, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea. Every time you have reprimanded me and abruptly sent me to an MoS page for my education, it has never said what you inferred it would, at least I could not find it. —Mattisse (Talk) 21:58, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It just won't happen. The GA Sweeps project tasked itself with cleaning up 2,800 articles, not 30,000. A year later, about one third have been checked. Editors have got to be able to refer to an easily understood and consistent MoS, so we don't have to undertake any more of these mammoth and draining exercises. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 22:07, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Eliminating overlap and redundancy would be an excellent start; there are items discussed on as many as four different pages, creating an absurd duplication of effort and confusion ! A task force should be put together, first, to identify and catalogue the issues. Only then will solutions emerge, IMO. For example, I spent the last month trying to eliminate redundancy between LAYOUT, LEAD, ACCESSIBILITY, FOOTNOTE and CITE. Turn your back for a week, and it's all undone. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:53, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I oppose increasing the importance of the MOnSter in the GA criteria or in the WikiProjects. It is simply too complicated and is one of the reasons why I, a "GA person", would never take an article to the endless nitpicking and incivility that is FAC. (The main reason, of course, is that it is almost impossible for Singapore-related articles to attain FA status.) Please tame the MOnSter if you want it to be taken more seriously. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 05:32, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Complaining from the sidelines isn't going to help you, you know. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 11:50, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

←Make an announcement that you want to change how WP:RfA works, and you'll have people banging down the doors. Say you want to work on style guidelines, and people fall asleep. (Or complain loudly, and then fall asleep.) I understand that you (Hildanknight/JLWS) and others have concerns. All I can say is: pick a CAT:GEN talk page, any page, and say what you don't like about it. I'll meet you there. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 12:27, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

headache at the tally-room

There has been some lively discussion here - Wikipedia talk:List of Wikipedians by featured article nominations#Cas Liber and Vampire: on the application of criteria for Wikipedia:List of Wikipedians by featured article nominations. Please make your feelings known here so we can establish consensus. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:47, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A comment on choice of featured article

I was unsure where to put this comment, but I felt it needed to be said somewhere. On 2008-09-11, the anniversary of 9/11 the main page has three featured things relating to that event (featured article, featured picture and "featured speech by GWB"). Just for a sense of balance I looked at all the FAs for Aug 6 and none relate to the bombing of Hiroshima. I realise that that article does not have FA status (yet), but the emphasis on 9/11 compared with other equally large events concerns me. -- SGBailey (talk) 09:02, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You can find information about how to recruit volunteers to help bring an article to featured status at WP:FCDW/March 17, 2008. I would start, though, by questioning the A-class rating of Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki at MilHist, as it doesn't appear to be A-class. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:24, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't A-Class at Milhist. It's B-Class. --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 20:06, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting! I have Gadgets turned on in Preferences, so it shows up as A-class. I wonder if Gadgets chooses the first WikiProject listed, or the highest rating. In either case, it's a problem. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:18, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Does that mean that there would be no objection to having a Singapore-related main-page FA, a FP of a location in Singapore, 4 Singapore-related DYKs (one per update) and an entry about our National Day in On this day, all on 9 August, as long as all the articles were of the required quality? Of course, this is just a pipe dream, as it is nearly impossible for Singapore-related articles to attain FA status. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 14:13, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That would be great! I really hope the SG editors get together and collaborate on some stuff for 9 August next year. I'm sure it's possible to get SG related content to FA standards if you get some good copyeditors on your side. Giggy (talk) 02:15, 13 September 2008 (UTC) SG = Singapore, not SandyGeorgia. Just noticed. :-)[reply]

More on capping...

I have an idea on how to avoid transclusion problems (hitting the limit etc.). I don't know if it's any good, so comments are appreciated. See here for details. Waltham, The Duke of 19:51, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Gimmetrow had the explanation for why the previous method caused the template limits problem; he would know if that works. It's Greek to me. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:01, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's strange when people use that expression when speaking with me. It makes it look as if I can understand what they cannot. (In Greece we use a "Chinese" variant.)

Anyway, I'll leave a message on Gimmetrow's talk page. If I remember correctly, however, it is this explanation that gave me the idea to overcome the problem. Let's see... Waltham, The Duke of 05:35, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ike

We're missing several FAC reviewers due to Hurricane Ike, so things may slow down until they return. All hands on deck :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:01, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

please allow subsections in FAC comments

I just wanted to tell that it is quite a hindrance not to allow subsections in the FAC comments. FAC pages get easily really long (e.g. this one on groups), and one is always scrolling back and forth to see what is going on. I'd like to encourage officials to allow / even encourage that every reviewer makes a subsection à la ===Comments by ...===, so that replying gets easier etc. Thanks. Jakob.scholbach (talk) 10:20, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

whatever the decision on subsections, Comments by ... should be encouraged anyway. I would have thought it made life easier for Sandy, and I find it helps me to find my own comments in long reviews. jimfbleak (talk) 11:31, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

; Comments by, good;
====Comments by====, not good (makes a mess of the FAC page and archives and has been used to create POV),

but I do agree there are cases where an exception will help. Work is steadily progressing on the Group article, so it doesn't look like a potential restart yet, but it has grown very long, complex and hard to edit because of the number of editors weighing in (which is different than a FAC that grows long over two or three editors bickering back and forth). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:38, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One problem with sub-sections is that, in the past, they have been abused of; I always remove sub-sections except, I have allowed them to stand in cases of clearly very long FACs that have become difficult to edit and read, and as long as the sub-section is not written in a way that creates POV or directs reviewers towards certain views and away from others. The issue is that once we allow one sub-section, others creep in. Not all long FACs need sub-sections; Group could benefit from a sub-section. I'd accept the use of sub-sections on that FAC because of the complexity, but also take this opportunity to remind reviewers that extensive content commentary could be placed on the article talk page to keep the FAC more readable. In the few cases where I've left sub-sections, I remove them when the FAC is closed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:28, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps add a note for the reviewers not to add subsections for reviews under x kb long? Nergaal (talk) 19:17, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We already have a note not to add sub-sections. I've allowed an exception here because of the complexity of the topic and because the page is not a candidate for a restart as it has shown steady progress with issues being resolved. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:01, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Another option that might settle the issue with overly long pages (at least visually) are these handy gadgets which allow to hide one's comments (once they are resolved). Encouraging using this doesn't share the drawbacks of the subsection method, but makes it easier following the FAC, both for the nominator and the reviewers. Jakob.scholbach (talk) 10:30, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You can request editors to temporarily hide long resolved discussions while the FAC proceeds, but I have to remove them all before closing the FAC because of the template limits problem. Creates extra work for me, but I don't mind doing it. So far. It also doesn't make the FAC easier to edit, since the text is still there. The more logical solution is for reviewers to be aware that extended, peer review-type commentary can be resolved on talk rather than on the FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:32, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Acknowledgments paragraph?

I believe adding such a section at the beginning of the FAC is the best place to do it. Maybe not all FACs would need it, but this should solve the problems with the "not major contributors". It might sound useless, but it is not more useless than in the articles published in the academic journals (even there nobody really reads it, but I believe it is a good habit to do for FACs). Nergaal (talk) 19:43, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Obscenity

Is it acceptable to have obscene articles featured, as they will appear on the Main Page? Also, is this an acceptable argument at WP:FAC, e.g. Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Fuck/archive1?--Thanks, Ain lina (box)? 16:27, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What is featured and what appears on the main page are two separate items, shouldn't be confused. There are about 1,000 FAs waiting to appear on the main page, so most won't make it. That FAC garnered no Support for many reasons; reading the FAC as if it failed for obscenity is incorrect. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:35, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Opportunity to make friends

That sounds so much nicer than "chores to do", doesn't it? Wikiprojects have been invited to list pages between now and October 20 that may need light spelling and grammar copyediting at Wikipedia_talk:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Copyediting. Editors who have listed their pages might be appreciative, because these pages will be going on the (not widely distributed) WP 0.7 DVD. Do one or twenty; there's no sign-up sheet and no obligation. I don't mean to pull anyone away from WP:FAC; this is less strenuous work, for when your brain needs a rest. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 20:35, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Friends? I don't need "friends"! *evil cackle* Thanks for bringing this to my attention, I'll try and do one or two this week. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 13:37, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Good lists"

Hello FACers. No big deal but I've noticed our Featured brethren over at WP:FT have invented WP:Good topics. We already have WP:GA and in the past the idea of good lists was sniffed at. Can we have a chat about it over at Wikipedia talk:Good article nominations#Good lists if you have an opinion? The idea is the same as GA, i.e. that you cover those decent lists which couldn't be considered the "finest work" within Wikipedia such as lists considered too short. I'd appreciate it if some FACers could contribute to the discussion. Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:17, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Admin help, malformed fac

Can an admin pls sort this malformed fac:

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Tropical Storm Kiko (2007) was incorrectly moved to Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Tropical Storm Kiko (2007)/archive2. The old contents (now at archive2) belong in the regular fac file, along with the new nomination blurb and nominator name and tools.
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Tropical Storm Kiko (2007)/archive2 then should be maintenance deleted.
Then readd the {{fac}} to the article talk page, making sure it directs to the corrected new fac.
Then re-transclude the corrected fac file to WP:FAC.

Because this is a move over a move, I can't fix it without admin tools. Thanks, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:48, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Before I transclude, check and make sure I did what you wanted... Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 02:52, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Perfect (I added back the old fac); now if you transclude it, I'll add the fac tag to talk. Thanks so much, David ! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:53, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All done (in under 13 minutes)!! Thanks again, David. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:56, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FA category tallies

FAs as of September 16 2008	Count	Pct chg since June 26
Art, architecture and archaeology	72	0.0%
Awards, decorations and vexillology	26	0.0%
Biology	155	11.5%
Business, economics and finance	19	0.0%
Chemistry and mineralogy	31	3.3%
Computing	17	0.0%
Culture and society	48	2.1%
Education	34	3.0%
Engineering and technology	37	2.8%
Food and drink	11	-8.3%
Geography and places	158	2.6%
Geology, geophysics and meteorology	90	13.9%
Health and medicine	36	5.9%
History	154	2.0%
Language and linguistics	15	-16.7%
Law	34	13.3%
Literature and theatre	134	4.7%
Mathematics	14	-6.7%
Media	171	1.8%
Music	182	7.7%
Philosophy and psychology	13	0.0%
Physics and astronomy	82	10.8%
Politics and government	67	6.3%
Religion, mysticism and mythology	44	12.8%
Royalty, nobility and heraldry	90	3.4%
Sport and recreation	162	12.5%
Transport	74	21.3%
Video gaming	96	11.6%
Warfare	173	6.8%

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:21, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I, as head honcho of all things video gaming, thus declare war on the insidious threat of state highways and tropical storms! ...I kinda almost feel guilted into writing something about food, but then I realize I wouldn't know where to begin and then go back to my pop culture and history. :) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 04:24, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Food. Casu Marzu. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:29, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dammit, I know you just want that for the flippin' April Fools! :P Are there any good food FA's to base the format on? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 04:39, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I prefer Brfxxccxxmnpcccclllmmnprxvclmnckssqlbb11116; btdt. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:48, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was going to do Cobb salad at one point; perhaps Caesar salad might be a better candidate. Gary King (talk) 17:34, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, casu marzu sounds like an appropriate replacement for a recently delisted April Fool's main page. Pagrashtak 18:24, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

can I just interject here with an uncultured eeewwwww. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 22:19, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mathematics went down!? The only delisted mathematics article I can find is this. That means that no mathematics article was promoted in some three months; what a shame. Nousernamesleft (talk) 21:34, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Notability, etc

I have a couple questions. First, when did notability and length become part of the FA criteria? I've gotten two opposes on Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Tropical Storm Erick (2007) because the article is too short, and the subject is non-notable and not deserving of a featured article. It's quite unfair, as I nominated an article that met or was near meeting the criteria, and it ended up failing because of personal preference. Second, is there really a limit to what can become featured? –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 12:56, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Notability is a requirement for every wikipedia article, nothing to do with FAC. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 13:19, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but the article meets the notability requirements. So I am still at a loss. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 13:25, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps it does, but that wasn't the question you asked. ;-) --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 13:26, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, true. I guess my question was when did "Wikipedia's best work" become "Wikipedia's most important work"? –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 13:28, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Short articles like these are what GA is for, as they can hardly represent Wikipedia's best work (I speak as someone who focuses on Singapore-related articles). --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 13:53, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you believe that short articles can't represent wikipedia's best work? The only length-related issue I am aware of is comprehensiveness. I guess there's a natural length limit imposed by the availability of reliable sources. So far as I can see, the only question to be asked so far as length is concerned is "Is this article comprehensive?". The same question that is asked of any article in fact. Length per se seems irrelevant to me. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 13:58, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree that the length is a problem on this article or should be an issue for an FAC; ignoring the sourcing issue for the moment, the article is comprehensive, and it is too large to merge elsewhere (looking at the format of the FA hurricane season articles, a single storm doesn't get that much coverage in those unless it landfalls). Thus, for all purposes, it meets specifically the FAC guidelines. As long as any article comprehensively covers its topic, size should not be an FAC consideration. Notability, as noted by the FAC, however, is a valid concern here, and that is presently what appears to be the point of failure for this FAC. --MASEM 14:05, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Notability is not one of the FAC requirements. It is assumed that notability concerns will be addressed elsewhere (either at AFD or through a merge - and yes, occasionally a featured article is deleted). If the article appears here, and meets the FA criteria, notability is not an actionable oppose. Karanacs (talk) 14:30, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid that people make up new rules as they go along. I got an unchanged oppose for a bird article on the grounds of comprehensiveness on the carefully reasoned basis that "there are thousands of field guides out there". Never mind that field guides only tell you what they look like like. "Short" doesn't automatically mean not comprehensive. Opposers should indicate what is lacking if they believe that an article fails under that criterion. jimfbleak (talk) 14:38, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Right on. Going through the Wikipedia talk:Featured article criteria archives, restrictions on subject matter have been discussed several times (mostly concerning popular culture, in-universe articles and obscene subjects), and always deliberately left out, just because they are not actionable opposes. Raul's stand on this, which seems to be generally accepted, is that any article worthy of inclusion is also worthy of shaping into FA status. Reviewers are supposed to ask themselves "how can this become featured?", not "can this become featured?". I actually think that many of these oppositions might be based on a fear of a flood (npi) of hurricane articles (as well as in-universe articles or porn actor articles) on the main page. But, as Raul has pointed out, FA and TFA are different things with different criteria. To appear on the main page, articles must not only be featured but also "have a lead section suitable for the main page", and both importance/notability and time since a similar TFA are among the points at Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests. -- Jao (talk) 14:50, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have seen, albeit tongue-in-cheek, opposition to shorter hurricane articles for fear of a flood, so I suspect you're right about that. Also, what I have read in this thread confirms my theory that length, notability, and fear of a main page appearance are no reason to oppose FACs. However, I don't think there's a way to stop people from having their personal opinion. But it might be beneficial to create a guideline page documenting what you should and shouldn't base your !vote on? –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 15:03, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's what we have WP:WIAFA for. If someone posts an oppose comment that is unactionable, calmly explain under it why that is not appropriate. Sandy/Raul understand the criteria and will know what to weigh. Karanacs (talk) 15:20, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would quite like to see a four line article, with two references and a single photo of something that scrapes into WP:NOTE being up for FA, meeting critreria 4 in full, but I cant think of any possibile candidates out there ... Fasach Nua (talk) 15:31, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

New York State Route 164 ranks pretty high up. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 15:44, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I submit .... Justus. Unfortunately, it has more than two references. Does have a photo though. Nothelm is shorter, and minus the photo, but still has more than two references. Wulfsige of York has no photo and only one reference. I might try for Wulfsige... that'd be ... interesting. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:46, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As long as you can prove it's comprehensive, I see nothing wrong with nominating Justus... –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 15:49, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I second that! Fasach Nua (talk) 17:48, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's going to be interesting. Gary King (talk) 18:04, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I know that Ealdgyth (probably) wasn't serious about Justus as an FAC, but it does nevertheless present an interesting counterpoint to the Tropical Storm Erick (2007) article which started off this discussion. The relevant FA criterion in each case is obviously "comprehensiveness", not length per se. My dictionary defines comprehensive as "complete; including all or nearly all elements, aspects, etc.". There's a considerable difference between that and "all known, available or documented elements, aspects etc.". By that dictionary definition Erick appears to pass the FA criterion but Justus does not, as there are many aspects of his life missing, either because they were not recorded or records have been lost. But that interpretation clearly disadvantages articles on medieval bishops, or on any other subject where records are sparse. Is that really the intention behind the comprehensiveness criterion? Or is an article considered comprehensive when all available sources have been consulted, even though the end result may be unable to say anything about important aspects of the topic because no information on those aspects exists? I'm beginning to confuse myself now, but I hope that at least I've succeeded in making the cause of my confusion clear. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 19:13, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is my knowledge that "comprehensive" means the article uses all known information, but I share your confusion somewhat. The Tropical Storm Erick (2007) page uses all information possible, whereas Ealdgyth's bishops use all documented information, so I think common sense applies to that particular part of the FA criteria. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 19:17, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think there's also an as yet unspoken subtext. "I had to work my socks off to get XYZ to FAC status, whereas these johhny-come-lately road/hurricane/pop culture articles can simply be churned out." Not saying it's true that they can be rolled out, but it's clearly a lot easier to get a hurricane through FA than Samuel Johnson for instance. Or dare I even mention the Roman Catholic Church. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 19:23, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't MIND taking Justus or any of the other medieval bishops to FAC, I just have always assumed that there was a minimum length requirement. I could probably flesh out Justus some, he was involved in the mission to the English, so it could easily double with context information and such like. In terms of bare facts known, he's not THAT sparser than Augustine of Canterbury, when all is said and done. A bit more is written about Augustine, but not THAT much more. I could get a doubled size article from Justus. Wulsige of York though.. that's compreshensive. Context might add a paragraph, if that much. Would that be an FAC? We'd have every single thing known about him, practically. He doesn't even rate an entry in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. But he did exist, the PASE lists a few entries on him, but we don't have secure dates for the letter addressed to him. What does everyone else feel about these sorts of articles? Ealdgyth - Talk 19:24, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For me, they satisfy the practical interpretation of the FA "comprehensive" criteria, which I loosely interpret as "would you be likely to find a better encyclopedia article on this subject elsewhere?" --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 19:29, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this approach. I would oppose both Justus and Wulfsige at FAC right now, because as Ealdgyth says they can both be fleshed out somewhat -- but if there were fleshed out they would be fine with me, short though both would still be. I don't particularly want to see a sudden rash of "easy" FAs, done on obscure topics with almost no sources in existence; but I can think of worse outcomes for Wikipedia than an imprimatur of approval on a bunch of very short, accurate, well-written and comprehensive articles on notable topics. Mike Christie (talk) 01:51, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My comments at the FAC basically asked how a reader would feel if that was the TFA they were presented with one day. Any opinions on this stance - is it a valid one to have, and is it oppose worthy? Giggy (talk) 22:43, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Per an above post, Raul has pointed out that the criteria for FA and TFA are different. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 02:08, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. Wouldn't it be fun, though, to see for once a TFA witout a "(more...)" link? Waltham, The Duke of 22:58, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've occasionally mulled over taking Space Science Fiction Magazine (319 words of readable prose) to FAC, just out of curiosity to see if there really is a shorter limit. I doubt one could add any significant referenced material than is there already. I figured I'd get around to gradually shorter and shorter magazine articles over time, and see where the boundary lay, but I am tempted to try this one, I must say. I think the shortest I've done so far is probably Beyond Fantasy Fiction, which is 1195 words of readable prose. Mike Christie (talk) 01:45, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That article is an interesting marker. For one thing, I think the shorter the article the better it needs to be written, but are there no circulation figures available? Or any reviews or reactions to the magazine from anyone? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 02:20, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Circulation figures became compulsory for periodicals in the US in about 1961, but for magazines before that date, if there are no comments from the publisher or private correspondence then there's nothing. I went back through and cleaned it up a bit (thanks for the copyedit, by the way!) and found that I've acquired a more comprehensive reference since I wrote it; I was able to extract a few words about the genesis of the magazine from that. Reviews and reaction: both Ashley and the Nicholls article in the Encyclopedia of SF say that the John Jakes story is marginally the best thing in the magazine, so I added that. There's no contemporary reaction that I can find, and no critical commentary at all. Total size is now 411 words of readable prose. The shortest existing FA I know of is Hurricane Irene (2005), which was 791 words when promoted. Mike Christie (talk) 10:46, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, even shorter is 2005 Azores subtropical storm. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 12:45, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't nominated articles like Mounseer Nongtongpaw and Maurice (Shelley) for FAC because they lack comprehensiveness in the sense that substantial sections of the article simply can't be written - information is missing. There just isn't much scholarship on these literary works and the articles rely on very few sources. In the case of these works, though, it is not that the information can never be found, it is just that no one has done the work yet. I don't really consider these articles of high quality because of this problem. They may be well-written and may contain more information on the topic than any other spot on the internet (go Wikipedia!) but that doesn't make them comprehensive explanations of these pieces of literature. I know that "comprehensive" has traditionally meant "covers all available published material" at FAC, but I have decided for myself that I don't want to nominate articles that are so obviously deficient. I suppose it is the scholar in me. :) (To be clear, I do follow the guideline in reviewing!) Awadewit (talk) 12:37, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So, good point, but now the question is what to do about it. Wikipedia may be the only ones who have come to this roadblock concerning the Space Science Fiction Magazine, and really Mike Christie is the one who should be further researching it. Someone needs to give Mike a commission. Wikipedia needs to take advantage of these discoveries. However, before that happens there should be a way of pointing out what state the article is in and where it needs to go. It seems like Mike has done his job but it would be a shame if that wasn't made apparent.Homely Features (talk) 12:46, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My two centimes. In any subject area, one can come up with ever shorter, but supposedly "comprehensive" articles. For example, in the area that I am devoted to, I could easily work on biographies of very obscure 16th century characters. But do we really want to divert precious resources to create huge number of these FAs that very few people in the world would want to read about? Don't we want to improve the "real" articles, the major ones we see on EB, ODNB, etc.? There are so many articles that ought to be improved in order for Wiki to have any sense of credibility as a true encyclopedia. In my opinion the FA criteria should be tightened to encourage people to work on those tough, difficult, long, comprehensive, neglected, large-impact articles. --RelHistBuff (talk) 14:44, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be rather against such a move, which would surely require the FA criteria to be amended to define what is meant by "tough, difficult, long, comprehensive, neglected, large-impact articles". In fact I'd go further and say that one of wikipedia's strengths is that it does have quality articles on more obscure subjects like Space Science Fiction Magazine, and I see no reason to discourage that by adopting some kind of elitist system of classifying articles by their perceived importance for FAC purposes. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 15:05, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I certainly do not want to see Wiki as elitist and I am not a deletionist. Keep those articles, the more, the better. I am simply pointing out the weak point of Wiki which is the lack of quality on articles that need it the most. --RelHistBuff (talk) 15:14, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Um, since Space Science Fiction Magazine was mentioned as an example, the point I am making is that I would rather see work done on Analog Science Fiction and Fact or Galaxy Science Fiction instead. --RelHistBuff (talk) 15:50, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think one reason Wikipedia is weak on these "big, important" articles is because it is so difficult to write them well. It is much easier to write Proserpine (play) than it is to write Frankenstein, for example, and much less time-consuming. Something like Roman Catholic Church requires a bevy of dedicated editors and someone with great organizational skill. Most people probably want a little quicker satisfaction than that. :) Awadewit (talk) 16:06, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) Okay, so what is the consensus here? Should I even work on Justus? Would I get hit for the 'comprehensive' bit? I understand where Awa's coming from on the more modern stuff, but for those of us working on medieval, etc. articles, where is the comprehensiveness line drawn? Justus probably isn't a very good example, honestly, because I could expand it pretty well, the man was part of Augustine's mission, so a lot of the background material from Augustine is also applicable to Justus. Hecbertus is a better choice here, as an example. His PASE listing gives probably three charters, some episcopal lists, and a mention in another manuscript. We're not yet to Alfred, although we're in Offa's time frame, so there is some fleshing out to be done. Probably manage five/six paragraphs, maybe more. Is that enough to fulfill the comprehensiveness criteria? Ealdgyth - Talk 00:06, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the question should be not if it meets 1b, but if we're happy with the wording of 1b as currently stated? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:22, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In this case though, how do we define "major facts or details". Do we define them as "major facts/details that are given in any source" or "all major facts/details, whether they were recorded for the person or not". On the first, it could pass, because i can turn up most of the available and recorded facts. On the second though, it'd fail, because quite honestly, there will always be a lot we don't know about him. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:24, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say yes. If there's nothing more known or ever likely to be available, then the article is by definition comprehensive. Any other interpretation of FA's comprehensive criterion would mean that very few subjects over 100 or so years old could ever become FAs. I think it's a false argument to juxtapose the Roman Catholic Church with Space Science Fiction Magazine. Neither do I think that it's the place of reviewers to decide whether Galaxy Science Fiction or Analog Science Fiction and Fact are more important than any other articles in that genre. I'd argue instead that a comprehensive article is the more important issue, no matter the perceived importance of its subject. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:27, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So, per Wikipedia:Compare Criteria Good v. Featured and recent GA reviews I've seen, we're really coming down to the only difference between a GA and an FA is a few MoS pages, formatted citations and (theoretically, but not always) more eyes on the prose? Even though GA was originally set up for excellent articles that were short? Does that make sense? I'm less and less clear on why GAs are supposed to be different than FAs other than some MoS things and more eyes on the review. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:47, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, that's why I was asking. I had always assumed there was a "length" requirement at FAC, so I hadn't thought of bringing the shorter bishops to FAC, but given Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Tropical Storm Erick (2007) (not picking on Julian, just using this as a recent example), I'm beginning to question that assumption. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:51, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, I don't think that's the case at all. Just look at the ongoing GA review of Horse for instance. There are quite a few issues I would/will raise at FAC, but they're not part of the GA criteria. Above all, FA demands as near as dammit perfection, with professional prose to boot. That's much more demanding than a few MoS issues and getting the citations right. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 01:04, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Initially, WP:GA was intended for articles that were too short to reach FA, but if Erick is promoted—and after 2005 Azores subtropical storm and Hurricane Irene (2005)—I suppose there is a sort of precedent for nominating short but comprehensive articles; then the question of whether GA is really needed comes along. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 00:58, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The question is not whether GA is needed; the question is what does "comprehensive" mean. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 01:07, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I think they are related. "Comprehensive" is a criterion in both WP:WIAFA and WP:WIAGA, in which GA demands the article is "broad in it's scope" or such. Thus, I think if an article is comprehensive and well-written, no matter how short, GA is not needed. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 01:10, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest that you take the time to refresh you memory of the GA criteria, which simply asks for coverage of the major topics. I am disappointed that you have apparently chosen this venue to initiate yet another one of these tedious GA/FA bashing episodes. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 01:16, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am not by any means turning this into a GA/FA bashing episode. I'm discussing the difference between GA and FA, and whether short articles like Ealdgyth's bishops can attain FA status, despite their length. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 01:19, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps I caused that distraction because of confusion over a recent GA review gone awry and wondering aloud what the differences are intended to be: I still want to get at the question of whether we're happy with the current wording of 1b. SandyGeorgia (Talk)

Well, for one thing, what does length have to do with perhaps the most demanding of the FA criteria, professional prose? That is certainly not a GA requirement; GA simply requires that the article conforms to the major MoS issues. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 01:26, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Being reasonably well-written is indeed a required of a GA. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 01:27, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't say "reasonably well written". I said "professional prose". Big difference. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 01:31, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) On GA: I think there are other differences than length between GA and FA, and I think GA serves a useful purpose. I don't think we need to talk about GA for this discussion; let's figure out the answer for FA and not worry about GA. On big/important vs. small articles: I agree that those other magazines are important, and in fact I'm the main contributor to both the ones mentioned as well as a few other significant sf magazines. I'd like to bring all of them to FA eventually; I have Amazing Stories at GA right now and hope to get it to FA this autumn. On Justus and other similar articles: I think the concern expressed about "biographies of very obscure 16th century characters" is legitimate, but isn't it the case that articles on sufficiently obscure characters would not survive an AfD? That would (or should) be the definition of "sufficiently obscure". Articles that don't get merged or deleted as a result of an AfD are worthy of a comprehensive article. On doing important articles first: in many ways it's easier to work bottom-up: start with the leaves of the tree and work your way back to the branches. Once all the sf magazines are done, I can work on the science fiction magazine article. Once all the obscure Mercian kings are dealt with, Mercia becomes a little easier to deal with. Finally, on the subject of Space Science Fiction Magazine itself, I am still tempted to submit it to FAC. I asked Sandy on her talk page if it would be disruptive to do so, since it might prompt debate that would be better here than in an active FAC. If I see a clear consensus either way I'll go with it; at the moment I don't really see a strong single consensus, though few seem strongly opposed to short FAs. I am on a plane to Texas first thing in the morning, but if I don't get a wild hair and submit it to FAC this evening, I will probably do so some time tomorrow afternoon unless I read a good reason not to here. Mike Christie (talk) 01:32, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

By that same argument (content that could be merged and AfD'd), has the question of merging 500 words on an inconsequential hurricane to the article about that hurricane season been raised or addressed ever? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:46, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For the minor sf magazines I doubt that a merge is likely or desirable. The target would have to be something like Minor science fiction magazines, or perhaps Minor science fiction magazines of the 1950s. It would consist essentially of independent material on each magazine, perhaps with an overview of the publishing history of the period. What would the criteria be for deciding whether a magazine is "minor"? There are scores of sf magazines which published five issues or less, so the article would, I think, be unmanageably long, even if restricted by date ranges such as "the 1950s". The magazines would have no relationship to each other beyond genre, so the reader would not benefit from having them associated in a single article.

For hurricanes, I suppose the target could be "minor hurricanes of 2005" as well as the possibility of merging to the year article. There are a finite number of hurricanes so this might be tenable; I don't know those articles well enough to judge. I would suspect there is no relationship between the articles, however, so again there might be little benefit to a reader.

For obscure Anglo-Saxon kings, see Ceol of Wessex for an example. I suggested a merge to Wessex, and one other editor agreed, so I made the article a redirect to Wessex. Subsequently another editor recreated the article. In its current state it makes definite assertions that are really no more than speculation. Ceol is mentioned only in a genealogical list, and everything else said about him is guesswork. As with the other examples, a Minor kings of Wessex article might be possible, but might be rather disjointed for the reader. I would baulk at trying to make Ceol into an FA, and I still suspect the merge to Wessex was the better outcome here. Mike Christie (talk) 09:28, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since the current criteria says nothing on length, I would suggest to go ahead and nominate Space Science Fiction Magazine. I assume it will get FA as 2005 Azores subtropical storm did. But it would be good that we think about how we can get people to think about working on the large-impact articles. The way the criteria is now, the "low-lying fruit" will always be the priority and the most difficult articles will be tackled last (or perhaps never get done). By the way, when I said "very obscure", I meant that the articles are still notable enough to exist, but they are not the ones that have impact. Some examples in the area I work on: Wolfgang Capito or John Frith. I guess if I wanted a lot of stars of WP:WBFAN, I would work on these, but I am one of these weird Wikipedians who like working on the difficult high-impact articles. --RelHistBuff (talk) 10:15, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(tickles Rel) I hardly think that Augustine of Canterbury is a low impact person! I'm not sure how to encourage more folks to work on the "big" articles. One problem is, the more high profile the article, the more you get POV pushers, cranks, etc. wanting to "help". Look at the issues folks are having with Cyrus the Great or Chiropractic. For that matter, look at the Equine Wikiproject's issues with Horse, which we are TRYING to get to FA at some point. We've been told by a number of folks that we should work on the "sub-articles" first and get them to FA then write the big article. (We're being stubborn and going with the big article first). So in some cases, the big articles are being tackled from underneath. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:24, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We might think about the readers! What is the best way to present information to them? So, for example, I created Lives of the Most Eminent Literary and Scientific Men, which actually describes two works by Mary Shelley because the best way to describe those particular encyclopedic biographies was through one article. Sometimes merging is a really good idea - I think we do it too little. The fact is, we rarely think of our core audience: people who come and merely glance at our articles for nuggets of information (my students do this all of the time). Thinking about the needs of our various audiences should always be a top priority. (I'm sorry if I'm rambling - my fever-wracked brain wants to participate, but probably shouldn't.) Awadewit (talk) 14:52, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sort of jumping in here, but to my mind one of the best things about the FA/GA processes are their lack of notability and size criterion. Provided the article passes Wikipedia's fairly lenient notability criteria, editors can work on any article that interests them, large or small, important or (relatively) insignificant, with the goal of getting the gold star that represents the ideal that the article carrying it is the most comprehensive internet resource on that subject. Editing Wikipedia is voluntary, and any attempt to pressure people into working on stressful "high interest" articles instead of "less important" ones is likely to simply result in fewer editors aiming at FA. As far as merging goes, I think Awadewit and Mike Christie are correct on focusing on the reader: articles should be presented in the best manner for getting the information across, whether that involves numerous small articles or one big merged one. A final note regarding the GA process - I have been quite heavily invovled in reviewing GA articles, and standards of MOS and particularly prose are far lower there than here. GA is no longer solely for article "too small" for FA. It is now an important stepping stone for many editors in acheiving FAs and the associated Featured Topics. For many articles, it may be the best peer review it will receive before it gets nominated here. GA is also a good stepping stone in newer editors developing their skills who may be intimidated by FAC, where reviews are of necessity much more thorough and reviewers can be more brutal in their criticism.--Jackyd101 (talk) 15:25, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

These responses seem to address the Kings and the magazines. Do we have an answer or precedent established via AfD re merging the 500 words of Tropical Storm Erick (2007) to 2007 Pacific hurricane season#Tropical Storm Erick? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:40, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There was a discussion, which I started, on merging Erick 07 - located here. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:17, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So it hasn't been thoroughly explored, and it hasn't been explored at all with a broader audience outside of the Hurricane Project? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:27, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm back in Texas and about to nominate Space Science Fiction Magazine. Once I've done that I'll start a new thread below as this is getting a bit unwieldy; I'll call it "Very short FAs" or something like that. Mike Christie (talk) 19:04, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Question on an unreleased video game for FAC

I'm thinking of taking StarCraft: Ghost, a video game, to FAC. The problem is that it's an "indefinitely postponed" game (as stated by the game's development company). So essentially, it shouldn't have any major news in the upcoming months or possibly even years. It may never even be released. This is why it doesn't have the {{Future game}} template. The article has also reached GA status because of its indefinite postponement. So, I'm wondering, would this be a problem for FAC? Thoughts? Gary King (talk) 18:58, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My first thought was "oh my goodness, why do we even have an article about that!". Then I went and looked at the article. The sourcing looks decent and there is a surprising amount of information. The only thing it is missing (on a cursory glance) is a release section, and since that is unlikely to happen anytime soon, I think this should meet the comprehensiveness and stability guidelines. Karanacs (talk) 02:05, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I'm wondering why you would be surprised; we've got plenty of unreleased video games around here. You can imagine how many video game articles are created just from rumors where someone heard from a friend of a friend about a game :) Gary King (talk) 02:31, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As I think I stated before, Ghost is more vaporware than "unreleased game coming out in X months" and thus unlike those articles, we have little evidence to suggest a rapid amount of new information would appear and destabilize the article entirely. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 03:08, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Virus check images

An independent review of the all images used in this article would be helpful at its FA candidature. Are there any volunteers? Especially the two portraits that I've used. Graham Colm ^Talk 22:49, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I kinda ignored it when it popped up at FAC 'cause I'm lazy and it had lots of images :) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 23:30, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

2010 Winter Olympics

A very inexperianced user has tried to nominated the above page, by starting a nomination page at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/2010 Winter Olympics, but has not completed the nom by listing on the FAC page. As this is an upcoming event, so the article will not be stable, and given that the nominator has 3 edits total, i imagine the course of action would be to speedily close the nomination and delete Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/2010 Winter Olympics, but i'm not sure entirely sure if, or how, to go about doing this. Basement12 (T.C) 22:54, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm looking now. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:55, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Meshuggah FAC

Good day everybody! I have a problem: I nominated Meshuggah for a FA and all things were solved the last nomination. This nomination started with one probably bad faith oppose, which was disproved instantly; and it had one support. But the problem is that since then, nobody added any comments for a week or so. And now it was just removed (and it is not very clear why). Is there something else what I can do except to nominate it again? Or, would you comment the nomination, please, if I nominate it again? Have a nice day.-- LYKANTROP ✉ 16:34, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article explains the word Meshuggah, but not how/why a band from Scandinavia came to have the word as its name. Presumably someone's asked them at some point? --Dweller (talk) 15:38, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I don't have any sources about someone asking them... The article has now a peer review (Wikipedia:Peer review/Meshuggah/archive2) before I'll go to FAC. Comments are welcome.-- LYKANTROP ✉ 10:06, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Manual of Style checking tools?

Hi, is there anything like this in the form of a script, client side tool, or tool server utility that does this? rootology (C)(T) 20:55, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not really (expect a lot of smart-arsed responses ranging from 'it's a moving target anyway' to 'if only common sense were scriptable'). There are a few pieces, like a dash-fixing script, but no comprehensive tool. Would you like me to take a look at a particular article for MOS issues? Maralia (talk) 21:05, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Andyz's script does some of it (but I don't think it's always accurate); ask Ruhrfisch (talk · contribs) about that. Epbr123 (talk · contribs) is a human MoS checking script, and Brighterorange (talk · contribs) has a dash-fixing script (still being tested, you have to check after he runs it). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:09, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks guys. The one I'm working on now is The Greencards, but I had a few others I wanted to take a crack at. Tony1 got I think most of the leftovers on the Greencards the other day. rootology (C)(T) 21:37, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm looking into some WP:AWB stuff along these lines. Still don't know the details; will "try try see" (pardon the in-joke for Chinese-speakers; I use this phrase a dozen times per week in conversation). Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 05:26, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Readability tool

Is it no longer working? I can't see it listed in the sample three or four open FACs I just visited, nor is it in the toolbox at WP:FAC. --Dweller (talk) 15:45, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It still works, but it has not been in the toolbox for quite a while. –thedemonhog talk • edits 02:36, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. The version I remember seemed to include all the text at the bottom, with words highlighted... ? --Dweller (talk) 10:50, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, that part is gone. –thedemonhog talk • edits 17:56, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I removed it after it became apparent that it was not used for its original purpose of pointing out problems in FAC, but instead as a crappy proses counter. The processed plain-text is just hidden but the highlighting has been moved to the debug mode. — Dispenser 21:00, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

New Featured content IRC channel

Following on from the creation of #wikipedia-en-FL ^connect for discussing the WP:Featured list process, a new IRC channel for discussing all Featured content has been created. #wikipedia-en-FC ^connect. Please see WP:IRC for more on using IRC with Wikipedia. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 20:36, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I left my snarky response to this over there. And what is this off-Wiki communication supposed to accomplish, btw? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:39, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh my God. Now the FA cabal is really going to gain strength and power. I don't know whether to be titillated or afraid. Maybe a bit of both. --Moni3 (talk) 20:41, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Are we? Do you 'spose any of us will even go there? Should we appoint a designated monitor to watch for canvassing and other nasty off-Wiki forms of behavior? I nominate Giano. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:43, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) What is the intention of these new IRC channels? Discussion of how to improve an article belongs on-wiki, where consensus can be properly measured and most of all visible (how else are the delegates going to know when there are outstanding fixes?). Discussion of whether an article meets the standards definitely belongs on-wiki (both for the delegates to measure consensus and most importantly so that there is no question that deals have been struck somewhere in the ether). Discussion of the process itself should likewise also be on-wiki. There are already a lot of people new to the process who think there is an FAC-cabal; this is simply fanning the flames of that. This type of process, which is supposed to recognize the best articles, needs to be as transparent as possible. I'm very disturbed that this has been created. Where is the discussion that led to its creation? Karanacs (talk) 20:44, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, let me grow a set and express my fears. Will chats be held discussing which articles editors should support? Will the histories of the editors be discussed instead of the merits of each article? Or will it be used only for good, encouraging and instructing newbie editors who want to get an FA on the best ways to do that? Who's going to monitor the chat, in that case? Is it possible for four or five editors to support or oppose an article for reasons other than the article's content and therefore pass substandard work or block an excellent article from being promoted? Sure, it's possible that this is happening now in another part of IRC, but that's in a back alley, not in a Wikipedia sponsored living room. I fret. --Moni3 (talk) 20:45, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Answer: all of the above. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:48, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

please see the green box on the top of my usertalk page for my thoughts on this not very well thought out idea. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 20:46, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid any harm we can do in the FC channels would have already been done in the numerous existing Wikipedia channels, particularly #wikipedia-en ^connect. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 20:51, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So 1) why is it needed, 2) what is the point, 3) and what do y'all plan to do there? I can't imagine any good answer to any of these queries. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:53, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To answer #1, the current Wikipedia channels have over one hundred people at any given time, and talking directly and only about featured content is nearly out of the question. Same goes for #2, I suppose. And #3, we would just have general conversations about FC in general, and ask for feedback on particular articles (not canvaasing). Heck, you should join one day! :) –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 20:59, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(ec x2) I believe very firmly that wikipedia should be governed on wikipedia, especially when the process in question relies completely on measuring consensus. Consensus happens on-wiki. I'm sure harm is already being done on IRC, but having a separate channel devoted to featured content processes is an invitation to people that yes, you should discuss these processes off-wiki. The creation of this channel, with no discussion and no indication of why it is needed, really, really disturbs me. Karanacs (talk) 21:03, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Followup to Julian - why can't you ask for review on-wiki, where there is an actual log that everyone can see and verify that it didn't cross the line into canvassing? By doing everything off-wiki, we have zero way to tell if a support or oppose is actually based on canvassing or not. Karanacs (talk) 21:03, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Julian, I believe you've evaded the gist of the question. What possible productive use could come from discussing featured candidates off Wiki, and who engages in such unless they *are* canvassing? That's pretty simple, and compensatory changes will need to be considered to deal with block !voting. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:12, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(To Karanacs, as well) Well, for the same reason that we have the main Wikipedia channels. The channel is a benefit because there can be a non-significant discussion in real-time, and without the turmoils of posting numerous comments. In reality, no, there is not much that can be gained from it, but there is nothing lost, and if even the slightest bit of convenience comes from it, it was worthwhile, right? –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 21:20, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Julian, can you give an example, please of a non-significant discussion? I am still very unclear on why this type of discussion cannot be done transparently on-wiki. Karanacs (talk) 21:22, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm using "non-significant" to indicate that there won't be any discussion regarding a change in rules, or anything else that requires a community-wide consensus, but rather simple discussions. For example, is the source of X article reliable enough? –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 21:26, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's what I was afraid of. If that question was asked on-wiki, we'd have a record of the answer, and multiple people could discuss (if necessary), and eventually we'd get a consensus on whether the source is reliable. At the very least, asking on wiki gives other editors the opportunity to learn, because everything is documented. I would have no problem with wikipedia IRC channels if the logs were made public and could be searchable with the rest of wikipedia. When you segregate any discussion that impacts an article, it's doing a disservice to editors who come behind and want to know how a decision was reached. Karanacs (talk) 21:32, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As of know, I cannot say with certainty what will happen in the channels. It's been open for an hour, and any talk about what sort of discussion that will take place is simply speculation. I suppose if it does turn out to be a problem, we can always close it. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 21:35, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The sooner, the better. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:39, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Heh, but it hasn't caused trouble yet. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 21:41, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, this has gotten very nasty very quickly. Okay, some people don't like IRC, but you don't have to be so nasty about it. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 21:01, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How is it nasty to express concerns that a new process, opened without any discussion, can lead to abuse? Karanacs (talk) 21:04, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

IRC channels are cheap, and besides, surely no discussion of any significance shall take place there. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 21:05, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is my hope, but where's the guarantee? Keeping communication on-wiki allows a certain level of oversight. All kinds of crazy things could happen on IRC, and if no one leaked the logs, no one who doesn't frequent the channel would know. Karanacs (talk) 21:11, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Restating, Scorpion; it's not IRC that I don't like. It's people who conduct their business on IRC instead of keeping FAC deliberations transparent and on-Wiki. Anyone can ask me any time on my talk page for feedback on any FAC and get a straight answer; everyone knows where I stand on FACs and FARs. I'm suspicious of the very need, the very suggestion that anyone has to go off-Wiki to discuss FACs: to what aim? Yes, I'm aware that there are off-Wiki e-mail campaigns about some FACs, but this just puts the off-Wiki level of communication on a whole 'nother level, and I want anyone who participates in that to give me one good reason, please? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:16, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't use IRC, so even if everyone loved the idea, wouldn't participate. I suspect I'm not the only one. But chaps, (and chapettes) let's stay cool, please. We're all on the same side here. Hmm. Except when you oppose my FAC noms. Then you're the enemy. Especially when you're right. <gnaws knuckles> Do I sound like an FAC veteran yet? --Dweller (talk) 21:08, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not particularly worried about abuse of the channel, but I do see it as a completely gratuitous addition. Splintering of discussions is a very real concern already, and adding another off-wiki venue with no clear purpose strikes me as simply adding to this problem. --erachima talk 21:17, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the fears it may bring, especially with those who haven't used IRC before. Anyway, let it just be said for the record that I didn't create either of those channels, though it was suggested in all good faith that -en-fc should be created since it seemed more "fair" than having one just for lists. Also, when WT:FLC was notified, it didn't raise any issues. But I understand that's not the point. Because I'm not a Crystal Ball, I can't really answer what the channels are to be used for, but -en-fl has just been general chat between people who regularly contribute to FLs. I've seen a couple of questions about the process, and they are easier to answer in real-time than back-and-forth messaging on talk pages. Anyway. Don't shoot the messenger. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 21:24, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No answer yet: where did this idea originate? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:31, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia_talk:Featured_list_candidates/Archive_4#A_FL_IRC_channel Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 21:33, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Scorpion, could you please clarify whether you were the one who created the channel, and if so, could you please respond to some of the concerns that have been raised? Thanks. Karanacs (talk) 21:35, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the response. OK, Gary, what were you thinking? What were all three of you thinking? I still don't know what benefit anyone thinks comes from discussing featured content candidacies off Wiki (we all know the bad effects, what is the upside?) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:37, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No edit conflicts? ;p Karanacs (talk) 21:41, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I suggested it, but I didn't create it. It doesn't matter who did, but when I suggested it to that person, they created it immediately before I could get any more opinions. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 22:56, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't find this exchange nasty, but necessary to determining the purpose of the featured content channels. There is also the inevitable furthering of relationships, both for good and for bad on IRC. I was a moderator of a channel for two years back when IRC was an infant, so I have quite a bit of experience with it. Much like Wikipedia, it mirrors human interaction at lightning speed. We may go there and develop fast and warm friendships, and breach these professional and formal modes of communication we share here, and you may be regaled by my endless wit and charm. But that may also open us to suspicions of cabal-like behaviors - passing our friends' articles because we chum around on IRC. Just as dangerously, you may find my wit and charm dull and tedious, and find me full of myself and take an instant real-time dislike to me. What will you think of my next article up for FAC then? I choose to stay away from this channel for now. Too much can go wrong. --Moni3 (talk) 21:43, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is the pernicious secretive form of Wikipedia that needs to be stamped on heavily now. So I am squashing it firmly. An IRC channel to discuss featured content - what a hoot - and it's not even April 1st. The only interest IRC has ever shown in FA content is trying to dispose of the editors who write it. Who on earth would ever go there, and mix with such company? Giano (talk) 21:46, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with your first point, and bow to your experience with the last. IRC is pernicious; no good will come from this new channel and I for one will have nothing to do with it, or any other IRC channel. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 23:40, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We should be discussing the regulation or elimination of existing IRC channels, not creating new ones.Proabivouac (talk) 00:14, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well? Where and how? I don't speak IRC, and this is over my head. Perhaps we were all (or at least I was, shouldn't speak for others) too complacent when this was happening to Giano, and I've learned my lesson more than once about sitting by with my fingers crossed when bad stuff was going down ... but this latest has the potential to corrupt the process by which we promote our best work. Where do I sign up? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:24, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The only way of solving this pernicious creeping slime currently invading Wikipedia is to vote a firm "oppose" in December to any Arbcom candidate who is a user of IRC. Start the cure at the top and hope it percultaes down. Giano (talk) 06:18, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What an absolutely terrible idea. If "no discussion of any significance shall take place there", then there's no point in it, and if any discussion of significance does take place there, then it should have taken place on the nomination page instead. Jayjg ^(talk) 07:03, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Questions

(ec) Like Moni, I've used IRC before to chat with friends and I have enjoyed it. Like her, I will not be using it. My biggest concern is that featured content processes be as transparent as possible, and the creation of this channel leaves a giant question mark in that transparency. Hopefully, the advocates of this channel are coorect, and no abuse will occur. However, there needs to be a way to reassure the rest of the community that no abuse is occurring. How can we do that? Maybe finding the answers to these questions will help.

1) Can the logs be posted somewhere on-wiki every week so that featured content directors/delegates who do not use IRC can monitor whether there was improper canvassing or collusion?
2) Who is/are the moderator(s) of the channel, and how do they plan to curb any abuses that may occur?
3) If people who do not use IRC become concerned about abuse, what steps can be taken to have the channel turned off?

Karanacs (talk) 21:48, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First off, public posting of Wikipedia IRC logs is not allowed unless we have the permission of eevry person involved, so I don't know how possible that would be. To answer your next question, there are no "moderators" per se in such a small channel, but there are ops, myself included, that could kick somebody if they persistently and seriously abuse. I'm not sure exactly what "abuse" means in this context. Is it the same as any other channel, flooding and posting gibberish? Is there a limit as to what can be considered abuse? Personally, I think a user can be banned from this channel if they persistently canvaas to get their article reviewed. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 22:38, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Juliancolton, you are incorrect. There is no ban on the publishing of logs on the part of Freenode, the owners of the system; whether or not they are published is the decision of the channel owners. If they are publishable, then a notice is to be given whenever an account logs in. Who is the owner of these channels? Risker (talk) 00:21, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I have learned that. I am the creator of the channel, by request of another user, and after a bit of discussion. The topic now permits public logging. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 00:25, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You created this, without so much as a consult on talk here? And you don't see the issue? Is it in your power, then, to make it go away? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:27, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I share Karanacs concerns, and honestly don't see what the point is. I am strongly in favor of keeping Wiki discussions on Wiki, and try very hard to keep email to a minimum, much less IRC. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:47, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, I don't know if this has been brought up before, but the reason I would use the channel is to find a reviewer. It's a lot easier to go onto the channel, find someone who is familiar with the FA process, and ask them for a FA review. Their review would be on the FAC, and thus would be in the edit history. I could even ask for that person to specify they were asked to review via the IRC channel. The benefit of this is that it occurs in real time. Asking a user on Wikipedia might take some time, particularly if that other person was away, or did not check their messages for a while. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:58, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Would not that unfairly advantage those using the IRC? Not everyone uses it, or even knows how. Also, it furthers the atmosphere of a FAC clique, which is strong enough as it is, as some articles definitely get way more attention from the big wigs then others. Also, isn't it a form of canvassing? —Mattisse (Talk) 23:12, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hink, an easier way to find a reviewer is to do some reviews yourself; what goes around, comes around. Mattisse calls it a "FAC clique"; well, if Ealdgyth is busting her buns reviewing every single FAC that appears here, isn't it likely that someone will return the favor for her when she puts up a FAC? Everyone who is high on WP:WBFAN might think about their give-take ratio. (What is it that Ruhrfisch called it in the recent Dispatch, the "Free rider" problem?) If someone rounds up a reviewer on IRC, I sure hope it's disclosed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:22, 24 September 2008 (UTC) P.S. And, what's wrong with posting here when reviews are lacking, where it's transparent and everyone can see it? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:51, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It should be said that the channels is -en-FC for "Featured content", not -en-FA for "Featured articles". Why oh why this discussion is even being held here instead of at Portal talk:Featured content I can only guess. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 23:15, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, then you haven't followed the featured portal page, which gets no traffic except vandalism; this is the busiest featured content page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:18, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Re. Karancs' point 1, I suggested in the channel that public logging be permitted, and after a bit of discussion, it now is. When you enter, the topic says "Welcome to the Wikipedia Featured Content channel, a centralized channel to discuss all Featured content. | Featured content main page: http://tinyurl.com/2yyp5r | Public logging permitted", so everyone will be aware of this. Giggy (talk) 23:28, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really see the utility of such a channel. FA related comments should be made on the FA candidate pages, where there is a definitive record of everyone who comments, and everyone can see what's been said and what's been done. The only advantage of such a page over what we already have in place is that it takes place in real time. But the FA process doesn't need anything close to real-time responsiveness, so I don't really see any need for a channel to duplicate the functions we already have in place here. It's an interesting idea, but I'm not too keen on it. Raul654 (talk) 23:51, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Burn it destroy it smash it now. IRC is probably the very worst thing that has ever happened to Wikipedians (note that I don't count nationalist POV pushers, fringe-theory POV pushers etc as Wikipedians; they are vandals). It turns Wikipedia into a social networking site rather than an encyclopedia. The key problem: Quality suffers tremendously. Social factors are the only factors considered when !voting for admins, FA articles, etc. I graduated from high school many years ago; I have no desire to return. You'll say, "So don't participate then" No, it doesn't work that way. If IRC is used to build social networks, the social networks then permanently change the nature of the Wikipedia forum. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 23:57, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely right I think. It changes the whole dynamic, and not in a positive way. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:06, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We weren't consulted, but it's done, so now we deal with it. At minimum, it may require more rigorous and more frequent reviews from transparent reviewers, assurances that reviewers are uninvolved and neutral, stricter enforcement on my end of neutrality of reviews, more feedback from experienced reviewers on issues like reliable sources and image policy, and a slowdown in the promotion rate. In other words, more work for those already doing more work :-) Anything else? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:11, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(undent). yes, something else. Petition to shut it down now. Not joking. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 00:13, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't speak IRC; can that be done? If so, why didn't ArbCom already deal with it in the Giano situation? What do we have to do ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:15, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have no idea. Who created it? Where do they discuss such things? Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 00:17, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How about giving the idea a chance instead of knocking it before it's caused trouble? –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 00:17, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Because, Juliancolton, we are all experienced enough with what happens in IRC (whether or not we are users of existing channels) to reasonably predict what will happen. If you want to chat with someone, chat with them. It doesn't require official Wikipedia sanction to do so. I believe these channels that imply Wikipedia sanction should be shut down. And I say that as someone who is currently logged into an IRC channel or two. There will not be the traffic to keep it to anything but a clique, especially as the overwhelming majority of active FC participants have spoken out against the use of these channels. I understand the motivation, but there is absolutely nothing that could be done on IRC that would not be better to have documented on-wiki. Risker (talk) 00:27, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't that a little like saying that one of "the axis of evil" only has the capability to deliver a small number of nuclear warheads a few hundred miles, so let's wait and see if they actually launch them? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:31, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Chatting was not the intention when creating the channel. The intention was having a place for FC regulars to talk about the process in real-time. I can honestly say I never would have suspected such a reaction to the channel would occur. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 00:30, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One of the things I like about Wikipedia is that you can have open transparent discussions, and everything is out in the open. Having an IRC channel for FC discussions short-circuits that and I'm not in favor of things that take discussion off wikipedia. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:33, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm very concerned at the reticence here by the proponents of this channel and that they don't acknowledge the damage already done. The transparency of the process by which we promote our best work has already been diminished and damaged by the very fact that this channel exists. I'm also concerned that, in the face of such clear opposition and consenus against this IRC channel, that it isn't being immediately dismantled. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:32, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. Your argument has been convincing, so I am in the process of getting the channel removed from Freenode. My sincere apologies for the inconvenience this has caused. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 00:34, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One problem though. Anyone, and yes, I mean anyone, can log into an IRC server and issue the command: "/join #wikipediea-en-fc" at any time, and voila, the channel is recreated. Whether or not it is advertised or trafficked, any possible channel name is possible just like any possible article name can be created on wiki. Imzadi1979 (talk) 00:38, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and did I mention that goes for any IRC server, not just the Freenode "official" ones. Imzadi1979 (talk) 00:41, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think some people have overreacted to the IRC channel suggestion. IRC isn't evil - it's just that there have been some incidents (particularly as regards the en-admins channel) that have given it a bad name with some people here. I didn't care for the suggestion, for the simple fact that it duplicates the functionality of the candidates page, with less transparency. The only advantage it offers is of real-time feedback for authors, which isn't something that we need all that much. But I don't want to dissuade from taking the initiative in the future and/or bringing up suggestions here. So thank you, Julian. While I'm not keen on your idea, I appreciate you the fact that you set up the channel and brought up the suggestion here. Raul654 (talk) 00:42, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Which planet did you post that from? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:45, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One which has some commons sense. :-) –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 00:47, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously not the one that you live on then. ;-) --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:52, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The one where people keep open minds, and realize that if you slap people down because you don't like their suggestions, pretty soon people will stop making suggestions all together. But since this is apparently an alien concept to you, you can just ignore it. Raul654 (talk) 00:52, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In your ignorance of whatever concepts I may or may not understand, you presume too much. One day, when the irony of your own comment has had the time to sink in, perhaps you will reflect on your own understanding of what it means to "slap people down". I won't be holding my breath though. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 01:50, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Imzadil1979 is correct; however, removing it from our list of accepted channels is significant. Juliancolton, thanks for your actions. As a bit of background, I can personally think of five separate Arbcom cases in which one IRC channel or another was central to the problems being discussed. Some of them also directly related to the way content was being developed. IRC has also been implicated in questionable GA reviews in the past. On the whole, editors distrust IRC for anything other than socialising or very restricted applications (e.g., two checkusers comparing notes to ensure private information is kept that way). The Featured Content review process must enjoy the confidence of the editorship as a whole in order to be successful; it must not only be fair and consistent, it must be seen to be fair and consistent. Anything that has the potential to erode confidence in one of our very few genuine quality control processes is inherently a net negative. It's very clear that your collective intentions were good; I suspect that none of you have the knowledge of wiki-history that would have forewarned you of the problems that are inherent in that medium. Risker (talk) 00:51, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I hope I'm not being lumped in here with either side. I only learned of this channel's existence about 30 minutes ago and posted a comment. I've neither endorsed or condemned anything, just tried to point out a technical issue. I've used IRC since 1998, so I was only trying to offer my expertise. Imzadi1979 (talk) 00:56, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since I've never been to IRC, and never plan to go there, most of the technicalities of the discussion are lost on me, but I gather that Raul is pointing out that the problem is not IRC per se (and that I needn't overreact to IRC in general). And Risker is saying that we don't need it in this case, it duplicates a process we already have on Wiki that allows for greater transparency, but that IRC itself is not the issue. So, thank you Julian for the attempt to help featured processes (we didn't initially understand or have the history here), but if it goes away as suggested, how do we know it's not recreated as pointed out by Imzadi1979? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:03, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's possible to prevent a channel from being created. I, um, forget how to, though, but I think someone more IRC-savvy than me would. Giggy (talk) 01:18, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I imagine that the IRC network, Freenode, needs to setup a bot in the channel to kick anyone who joins it. I don't know if they usually do that kind of stuff; it's like preventing an article from being recreated. Gary King (talk) 03:21, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A freenode staff member has to jupe the channel; the only person who can do this is Sean Whitton, or any staff member under the authority of Jdforrester. This is also a bit of a symbolic move, since an abusive channel can just move to an "unofficial" location outside of the remit of Wikimedia group contacts, such as ##wikipedia-en-FC or ##FeaturedContentCabal. That said, IRC should not be used to determine the worth of contact - there is no time factor involved when reviewing FA candidates, and all decisions relating to articles (the single most important thing here) should be made transparently and in an open environment. I just put a couple logging bots in both the #-FC and #-FL channels, and promise to make it known if anything shady happens there. east718 // talk // email // 04:58, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ah, don't know what you said, but thanks. I think :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:06, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try again then. :) Sean Whitton and James F. are the only people that can shut down a channel, but it's a bit useless since IRC-based abuse of the FA process can happen anywhere. I'm currently keeping tabs on these two channels and will check for abuse every now and then. east718 // talk // email // 05:14, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can think of very few ways in which this proposal might be useful, but plenty in which it might become a source of contention - lets keep discussions on wikipedia. Burn it! --Joopercoopers (talk) 12:13, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just another point of clarification, IRC was developed in Finland in the late 1980s. It's the grandparent of all internet chat rooms, IM clients and with the direct-client tools built into it, even peer-to-peer networks. While I appreciate the desire for transparency concerning FxC processes, I'm afraid that IRC is older than the World-Wide Web and wikis in general. The problem is not with the techonology, it's the application of it that's concerning so many people here. I'm afraid though that no matter what is said or done, you'll never find a way to completely regulate user conduct off wiki. The same issues with IRC could be applied to e-mails, Yahoo! Groups, Usenet newsgroups or any instant messenger client. You'll need to regulate all of them, not just IRC. Also remember, that Freenode isn't the only IRC network. There are several dozen out there. Imzadi1979 (talk) 02:54, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Imzadi1979, your facts are correct, and you are right that there is nothing that can be done to prevent editors from communicating off-wiki about featured content—with the possible exception of their own sense of ethics. The issue in this case was that the development of a channel with the name "Wikipedia" in it gives the channel an aura of acceptability, even authority. That is why many of us made our position known immediately. It also is an appropriate time for the community involved in the featured content process to deprecate the use of off-wiki communication for discussion of featured content. Will people still do it? Yes, some will. There are people who do all kinds of things that go against the Wikipedia ethic. There's nothing wrong with discouraging it, though. Risker (talk) 03:29, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If I might chip in here, I don't think IRC is the monster it's thought to be here, but I don't see it being of much use for featured content, of all things. If Wikipedian discussion of Wikipedian featured content is not on Wikipedia, where else can it be? I can see the potential dangers of communication it presents, so I don't support the creation of these channels. bibliomaniac 1 5 04:21, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You don't need explicit permission from anyone for any kind of public logging, that's a silly myth propogated because of how some of the WMF channels on IRC do business with a lack of desire for accountability. Shove a permanent message on the FA IRC channels that everyone sees upon joining that says "This channel is publically logged. Anything you say may be recorded for public posterity" and that's a condition of doing business. rootology (C)(T) 12:51, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This would be equitable, but both channels have since moved underground to locations outside the remit of our group contacts. east718 // talk // email // 17:29, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Meaning that those who frequented the place didn't want to be logged ??? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:17, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

People will obviously discuss whatever they like wherever they like, that's part of our "democratic" society. The important issue is that such IRC channels ought not to give the appearance of being offically sanctioned. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 20:26, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FA awards

I know that some find the WP:SERVICE awards motivational (when self-awarding) / satisfying (when awarded by others).

I'm not aware of FA equivalents, other than accumulations of userboxes/stars for each successive FA.

It's surely possible that, say, someone with four FAs to their name may be spurred back into the slimy pit by the prospect of a shiny thing to bung on their userpage. Or someone with eight, may consider doing another couple to get an even shinier one? It's surely possible... isn't it?

And yes, I know I've not been reviewing FACs recently. Sorry. <deep, Austrian-accented voice> I'll be back. --Dweller (talk) 15:35, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Anything's possible, but I suspect those who might be motivated by such things are more likely to pay attention to WP:WBFAN, so there is less need for shiny things in this case. Mike Christie (talk) 11:04, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Richard II of England nomination

Sorry, I seem to have made a mess of my nomination. It appears twice, though when I try to edit the page it's only listed once (seriously, when I can't even do this, how do you expect me to write a featured article?) Anyway, how can I fix this? Lampman (talk) 16:38, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Very strange indeed. I've looked at both the FAC page and the nomination in edit window, and can find no reason for this. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 16:42, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see it twice anywhere. Maralia (talk) 16:45, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe there's a time-lag on this page. Let's give it a few minutes. Lampman (talk) 16:54, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Seems ok now for me too. Lampman (talk) 17:29, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Very short FAs

The thread above about short FAs is getting a bit unwieldy, and since I've just nominated Space Science Fiction Magazine I think it's worth creating a separate thread to discuss the short FA question.

One type of article has occurred to me as a possible problem: currently many published authors are regarded as notable, but it is quite plausible that absolutely nothing might be known about the author. This might lead to an article on the author that would only be able to discuss their books. Say someone wrote three western novels in the 1950s and they receive 200 word reviews in half a dozen newspapers; the sort of review that says "good formula stuff, a pleasant read". The novels sold pretty well; maybe one of them makes the low end of a bestseller list. Can the article on that writer be turned into an FA? It's hard to see how. This is similar to Awadewit's concern expressed above: if you know there is more information out there, but there are no secondary sources (yet) that cover it, can it be an FA? Mike Christie (talk) 19:49, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think so. For example, for an article about a writer to become FA at least some indication of a personal biography should be present (date/place of birth and death - and if this is unknown a discussion that it is indeed not known). Note that for trivial fact (like date of birth) primary sources are perfectly acceptable. Arnoutf (talk) 19:59, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How about tackling this concern by starting a WikiProject that lists articles in which the subject needs more research, so that perhaps journalists and academics could use it as a guide to what kind of research they might consider doing? Homely Features (talk) 20:13, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I highly doubt academics will find the wikiproject and actually use it... Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 21:01, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I turned a lesbian pulp fiction author who lived incognito for 50 years into an FA. No one reviewed her books when they were released, and only perhaps four academic analyses of her works. But lesbians noticed her books for sure. And I found that there are pulp fiction aficionados who write about them. The same for Marijane Meaker, who wrote pulp fiction as Vin Packer (reminding me I should add more to her article). I should pay attention to this notability discussion and add more, which I will. --Moni3 (talk) 23:59, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Something is not right when there are stubs that are longer than an FAC. –thedemonhog talk • edits 22:27, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 22:30, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I second that question. The assessment of a stub isn't entirely based on the size of an article, but rather the size of the article in relation to the subject. For example, Tropical Storm Erick (2007) is complete, and may make FA or GA, while Casserole is a well-known subject, and thus has more to write about it. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 22:37, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I feel like something such as Space Science Fiction Magazine is as comprehensive as can be, but not comprehensive (period), i.e. does not provide extensive coverage of the subject, although I might be wrong. –thedemonhog talk • edits 23:11, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's what I think the problem with "comprehensiveness" being part of the FA criteria is. Everybody has their own interpretation of it. To me, being "comprehensive" means utilizing all available information. I can, however, see how other people could have other views of it. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 23:22, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just to keep focused, WP:WIAFA currently says:

(b) comprehensive: it neglects no major facts or details;

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:26, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think we have to be careful when we say, "if you know there is more information out there, but there are no secondary sources (yet) that cover it, can it be an FA". The problem lies in the assumption that there is something more out there. If there is, then it's already covered. If you're assuming there is, when you cannot find it, then that's all you're doing...assuming. I can assume that Television Show's episode 67 must have some thematical elements about it, because I recognize the themes and thus some critic must recognize them. When I check, no critics talk about said themes that I recognize to be there. Does that mean that the article is not comprehensive because some secondary source has not identified something that I know to be there? Of course not, because I'm not an expert and I don't get to determine what people write about. The idea behind comprehensiveness is not regulated with time, exception when something is new. It's hard to assume that a topic that is a few weeks, maybe even a few months, could be considered truly "comprehensive" because we haven't given people the time to really discuss it. On the other hand, if a topic is a few years old, and all available sources (present) are being used to develop the article, then we have to assume that it is as comprehensive as possible. That being said, no one said that a comprehensive article cannot be added to after the fact. Jason Voorhees is a rather comprehensive look at the fictional character, but no one said that that article cannot be expanded, and it's FA. There is a new film coming out with the character, which wasn't known when the article was promoted to FA status. Does that mean that the article should have its FA status revoked until after the film is out and we can get information on that particular presentation of the character? Of course not. It doesn't change the fact that the article is still comprehensive. The definition (at least Wikipedia's) of comprehensiveness does not equate to "every possible thing we can think of connected to the topic), but that it "it neglects no major facts or details". It can fit that bill and still be expanded, as "major" is the key word in that definition. What you have to ask yourself with comprehensiveness is: 1. Are there major facts missing? 2. If "No", then of those major facts, do we know that sources exist that discuss them? 3. If the answer is "No" to #2, then has the article topic been in existence long enough that we can say that those major facts should have been covered by secondary sources by now? 4. If the answer is "No" to #2 and #3, then either those "major facts" don't really exist, or the article needs to wait longer before going to FAC. If there are no scholarly journals written about Topic X 5 years later, then the topic is as comprehensive as it's going to be. Maybe 30 years from now there will be renewed interest in it, and more information can be added, but we cannot (nor should we try) predict what could happen to an article topic in the distant future. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 23:31, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I understand where people are coming from, but think about actual use to readers. If a subject is notable, exhausts all sources and is barely more than stub class, we need to decide whether it wouldn't be better as part of a larger article. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 02:36, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. I wasn't trying to say that just because you meet everything, but the article itself is small that it's still ok for FA. That's one of the very reasons why Smallville (season 1) was written the way that it was, because had all those episodes been broken out not only would their notability been in question, but they would have all been extremely small articles (like 6kb large, or less). Though, I don't know if the criteria for FA articles can really stipulate size requirements. If so, we're going to be revisiting a lot of FA pages. Not to say that I wouldn't be for at least some mention of size "recommendations", maybe saying something along the lines of "if article X is Ykb or less, determine whether or not there is a suitable parent topic that it could be merged into. If not, then continue on with the FAC"...or something to that affect. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 03:45, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If short articles are going to be aceepted by the WP:FAC community, then I support the addition of a recommendation to the instructions. On another note, Erick does not look so bad when it is merged into the parent article, but it is longer than each of the other sections. –thedemonhog talk • edits 04:28, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not a huge deal. If the parent article was overly long, then we would certainly look to splitting Erick off first if he was the largest. Then again, it also comes down to readability. When you have lots of sections in an article, the extended reading time is less noticed because you have lots of stopping points, as opposed to an article that was 70kb (readable prose) with only say 5 sections - that would make those 5 sections awfully large and probably take a nice chunk of time to read through. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 04:33, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Aren't merge decisions made at AFD? Why should FAC instructions duplicate AfD functionality? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:38, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I bumped you because it would really start to throw things off if I respond to you, but still have an early comment after the fact. Anyway, I wasn't suggesting that merge discussions take place at FACs (and merge discussions are actually not supposed to happen at AfDs...or, at least I constanly see Admins and others clamoring about how they should be deciding if the page should stay or be deleted and not "merged"). I see this "recommendation" as more of an extension of the FAC's criteria on WP:SUMMARY - "Length. It stays focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style)." Why is it that we have to only discuss article length when it is too long? Why can't we say, "maybe this should be merged into a larger article, because, though it is comprehensive of the given subject, it's really only a footnote of a larger topic". BIGNOLE (Contact me) 04:44, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) If "not notable enough for a featured article" isn't an actionable oppose, neither is "too short for a featured article". If we accept the idea that all featured articles should be long, that in itself sets limits on FA subject matter, a perennial idea that has been rejected by Raul654. szyslak (t) 05:34, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not "long" but certainly not stub size. Otherwise, I don't want to hear any objections if I nominate an article with 120 kb of readable prose. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 05:39, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Doing my homework: szyslak, can you please link me to a discussion where Raul looked at the possibility of 300 and 400-word featured articles? Particularly in the case when there is a possible merge target? Has this been looked at before in FAC or FA archives? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:03, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it matters whether Raul or anyone else has "looked at the possibility" of featured articles being this or that length. What matters is whether "too short for a featured article" is a convincing argument that addresses WP:WIAFA. Leaving true stubs out of the equation as they are by definition incomplete, there is a reason why WIAFA addresses comprehensiveness rather than length. Not every Wikipedia-appropriate article topic lends itself to a "full-length" article, whatever that is. And no, merge-worthy articles should not be featured, but I think that falls under "stability". If it's disputed whether an article should even exist on its own, I'd say it's more or less unstable; how's about you? szyslak (t) 08:50, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Responding to the question about FAC instructions duplicating AfD: I don't think they should, but that doesn't mean an article is immune from AfD just because it's at FAC. I once nominated an article at FAC within a couple of minutes of creating it. On reflection that probably wasn't a sensible thing to do, but there's no rule against it. If someone else were to do so with an AfD-worthy article, I could see it going to AfD. I don't know if Sandy would terminate the nom until the AfD ran its course, or just let them run together. For short articles, a talk-page request to merge is more likely; and of course those don't have a five-day sunset as AfD does. As with AfD, that could theoretically be running at the same time as the FAC ran. Sandy, if someone stuck a {{merge}} template on Space's talk page, what would you do? Mike Christie (talk) 12:01, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:TIND. I'd prefer to see things sorted here by consensus before promotion so we don't end up at FAR, but eventually some things get tested at FAR (e.g.; Spoo). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:32, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Some ancient persons are only known through brief mentions a century or two after their death. They must have been notable enough then to mention, but their legacy is lost, and now our entire knowledge of them might be expressed in one paragraph of 200 words or less. We might even be able to cite reputable historians saying our only known info are the mentions in works X and Y. Could an article like that make FA? If it can, GA would appear to be opposite its original intent. GA was originally for "short articles that couldn't pass FA". When long articles started appearing regularly at GA, the notices at GA said that long articles (over 20-30k) had to essentially meet FA requirements to pass GA. Now, long GAs are often quite far from FA, and if there isn't much difference for short articles, then GA becomes a review only for "long articles that are not yet FA-level." Gimmetrow 16:00, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I had raised a similar point: Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/archive28#1b vs 1c earlier this year. I have some historical articles Bandra Fort that I would love featured, but have run out on reliable sources to have them made more comprehensive. =Nichalp «Talk»= 16:10, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe reading a FA should necessarily be an endurance feat. Although normally a voracious reader, I can rarely make it through a FA. I wonder how many readers actually read the article rather than skim. Judging from FAC responses, most do the latter. Please consider those of use who appreciate a tight well-written, fascinating article. —Mattisse (Talk) 16:33, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also, reading on a screen is hard on the eyesight. Perhaps there would be more editors willing to review FAC if the articles were not so exhausting to get through and not so bogged down in trivia that is important only to a few. Are FAC's meant for the general reader or only the elite? —Mattisse (Talk)

Maybe we could shoot for an FA so short the TFA blurb wouldn't need a "more..." - and run it April 1? Gimmetrow 16:45, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Like I said, I'm not advocating that all FAs be "x" length, but if an article is only 7kb large (including all the coding that is present in the article--i.e. non-readable prose) then I think we should really reconsider whether this article "needs" (I say "needs", because I think there is a difference between when an article "needs" a page and when it meets the criteria for having a page) to be on its own. I don't think we should have to spend an hour reading an FA article from top to bottom (though, if that's the case I don't think we should force a page to break apart just because it takes awhile to read), but I also don't think that I should be able to read an FA article in under five minutes. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 16:46, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FAC is bursting at the seams; new scheme

Is there a shortage of reviewers at FAC? That may be one way to look at it. But I count 46 FACs at bat at present. To my way of thinking that is simply too many. FAC's size is (mostly) a healthy result of Wikipedia's growth. But growth requires structural change. I have a proposal... but will forfend any "Ain't broke, don't fix it" replies with a soul-searching question:

How often per month do you investigate FACs by doing extended research... digging deeply for sources to see whether 1(b), 1(c) and 1(d) are really fulfilled?

I suspect we have a hidden problem with reviewers looking at the prose, counting the number of references, and if the prose is semi-grammatical and the refcount is high then it's hi-ho and Promote we go. I don't blame the reviewers; I blame the system. There's no time for in-depth shtuff on any more than one article per week, if that!

So for my proposal: a two-part list of nominees. The first part would be "Active Reviews" and the second part would be "Review Queue". Let's say, 15 or 20 articles in the Active list, and everything else in the Queue. No one reviews articles in the queue; those merely wait in a quiet and orderly fashion for their turn at bat. Only the Active list gets reviewer attention. Whenever any FACs are closed, the same number of articles are popped off the stack at the "Review Queue" and placed in the "Active Reviews" list. That way we have the same number of articles being reviewed at any one time.

Really, I think this is the only sane way to handle the growth at FAC.

I hear the footsteps. I hear the footsteps of those who will say, "Gosh, didn't we wanna have at least X number of FA articles on enwiki by MM/DD/YYYY? I mean, I think I read that on the Wikipedia Signpost, or somewhere or other... so it must be true!"

No, we don't—not if a significant minority of them are promoted without serious, very serious reviewer attention. Feel free to dig up your favorite example of an FA that was promoted by a fan-club !vote, or by a really small number of !votes because almost no one seriously reviewed it. I mean, don't post those examples here; you'll offend someone. Offend them by taking it to FAR instead. ;-) But, tell the truth—is the current system straining at the seams? I believe it either is, or very soon will be. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 13:46, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's certainly an interesting idea; but then again, if you think 40-something candidates is a lot, we need to go through the oldids and find when it was exceeding sixty :P One point though, I do think you're right in a way about people just assuming claims are fine if the refs are reliable, but that's both AGF as well as convenience; unless someone breaks out a copy of the book and does a peer review (which this fine wiki does not have such a formal process) then we'll never know if everything is accurate. That's a lot of responsibility we're trusting nominators with. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 13:51, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wouldn't that just add more process, rather than make it simpler? –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 13:52, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't wanna make it simpler; I wanna improve the quality of the reviews. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 13:57, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In that case, it sounds like a good idea, but I fear that we wold end up with the same lack of reviewers. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 13:58, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I remember it above 100 at one point. I think Sandy has done a great job at keeping it as low as it is. I don't think that adding more process is a way of reducing the perceived backlog; we simply need more expert reviewers with infinite time available to them. Personally, I have had to pull back recently from all facets of reviewing due to time constraints. Woody (talk) 13:59, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thou sayest: "I think Sandy has done a great job at keeping it as low as it is.". I also believe that Sandy is doing a bang-up job. She'll soon replace Cliff Clavin as the patron saint of Wikipedia. But really, is "...keeping it as low as it is" our goal? Should we be thinking of FAc as weeds to be trimmed, or as a garden to be nurtured? Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 14:05, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Minor nitpick on this proposal; could obviously not-ready nominations still be removed from the Review Queue, or would we have to wait for them to reach the Active Reviews list before telling them they're not ready? (I'm hoping the former. In general, I like it.) Giggy (talk) 14:10, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good thought/good catch. I hadn't thought of that. Errrm.. I would be inclined to say "yes" as well.. but not sure how it would work in practice... Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 14:13, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, assuming I'm following what Giggy is thinking, what you would do is have the active "review review review" docket, and then the queue. People could look for quickfail criteria in the queue, and then remove them and leave a note on the talk page if the criteria obviously aren't met, it's a bad faith nom, whatever. While this would spare some half-review, it still means people have to look at the queue, which may defeat the purpose for some. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 14:16, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But the Queue-Peek would be Strictly Surface. If it is mostly grammatical, has abundant cites, and doesn't say anything patently ridiculous (e.g., Obama plans to join the John Birch Society), then it stays in the queue. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 14:20, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am so ill that I cannot assess the merits of any proposal right now. But I must say I agree that one of the weakest areas of our reviewing system is thoroughly reviewing the content - who is looking to see if the best sources have been used? who is looking to see if the articles really are comprehensive for the areas they claim to cover? When I was at Wikimania, the most consistent complaint I heard about FAC was just in this area. People asked me why FAC was just about MOS and prose rather than about content. There are obvious reasons for this (reviewer exhaustion, lack of experts, etc.), but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try to address the problem. Thanks, Ling, for bringing it up and trying to solve it. Once my fever has died down and I am capable of rational thought again, maybe I can respond with something insightful! Awadewit (talk) 14:22, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I certainly have no problems with thinking up new ways to improve the reviewing process, but I'd like to point out some issues with the "best possible sources" problem. Look at the issues we've had with RCC at FAC and trying to improve the sourcing. Or what about obscure subjects? In all honesty, how many medievalists ARE there on Wikipedia? We will look like a cabal if we spend our time vetting each others articles, and frankly, we do need non-experts to read our articles too. We run into the problem of we just aren't a peer review journal type project. I'd LOVE to vet the sources in more depth, but as a general rule, I run into flak whenever I try to improve the sources past the "fulfills WP:V" variety. I'm not opposed to the idea, but I can't say I think it'll work that well either, mainly because there are plenty of reviewers who don't WANT to dig into sources, etc. They'll still do the "Support" reviews without digging in depth and will we now require that before a candidate can be promoted that it have so many not just prose or MOS reviews? Ealdgyth - Talk 14:48, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I absolutely agree that we need non-experts to read articles - we need to know if we are communicating to the average reader. I myself often review science and math articles as a "lay reader", for example. However, it is imperative that articles that are going to become featured - the "best Wikipedia has to offer" - are based on the best research. If they are not, Wikipedia cannot aspire to become a legitimate reference source because the information in it will only be of the most superficial kind. A biography article based on one or two biographies when dozens are available suggests that there might be other points of view not represented in the article or even crucial information. I have come across the same resistance that you are outlining to doing more research and reading more (I come across it every day in my students!), but I do not believe that we should succumb to this resistance. (Controversial articles like RCC are a different problem and have to be solved in a different way.) We need to create a culture of reviewing articles in more depth. I myself always try to do this and, if needed, I point people to additional sources. We have to ask, at what point is the information and the research going to be systematically reviewed in an article? FAC seems like the perfect time. Awadewit (talk) 15:07, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I really like Ling's idea. I would assume that the FA director or delegate would get to decide the number of FACs that can be running at any one time. Sandy is perennially stretched to deal with FAs and she has no control over her workload; she also cannot control the level of effort put in on FACs by the reviewers. She (and others) have also expressed concern about burnout of those reviewers who look at every FAC, or who review on troublesome topics. If Sandy could choose when to pull FACs from the queue into the active reviewing area, she would be in control of several of those workload levels.

I would also suggest that absolutely no reviewing be done on something in the queue; it should be actively discouraged, in fact, for resource management reasons. A related point: if the queue starts to get really long, then that is direct validation of assertions that FAC is under-resourced. It would also allow a multithreading approach; Raul has not been at all active in promotions anymore, but if he felt he could manage, say, ten FACs at a time, he could have his own reviewing area and pull ten FACs from the queue into that review area. That would allow arbitrary parallelization of FAC, since Raul could nominate further delegates to handle separate active review areas. It would be necessary to have the active areas pull their FAs strictly "first in, first out" to avoid any ability of a nominator to choose which FAC director/delegate reviewed their FACs. Mike Christie (talk) 15:51, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is an m:instruction creep. If the FAC directors have a problem, then it might become an issue, but so far I haven't seen any complaints. Isn't Peer Review and GA supposed to be part of this 'queue' too? FAC reviews can be broken down into three types: 1. MoS, grammar and style 2. References & image licensing check, 3. Subject. How do we get more subject matter experts review the stuff? I think we need to tweak the process first. I usually notify relevant WikiProjects, and occasionally mail external reviewers. (For example I emailed the Amateur Radio Society of India to review Amateur Radio in India) And, if you are a subject expert, its very easy to pick on faulty sources. I'd like to hear from Sandy or Mark if they have any problems with the system. =Nichalp «Talk»= 16:07, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is FAC at all driven by consensus, or are there bosses who decree criteria? —Mattisse (Talk) 16:36, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Raul654 is the Featured Article Director, selected long ago. He has general authority over the process; that authority was given to him by users and the last time I saw his authority questioned it was clear he still had broad support. SandyGeorgia is his delegate and has his trust. However, Raul and Sandy almost never use the authority they have, and go by consensus almost always. I view Raul's authority as a backstop, not as a mode of government. Mike Christie (talk) 17:04, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you go down this route, the result will be a never-ending increasing line of FACs. And when you nominate a FAC and have to wait a year for it to make its way through the queue to be reviewed, I'm quite sure someone will suggest going back to the old system! The current system does have problems but I don't think introducing a queue is the answer. How about kicking things off by being a bit more liberal with rejecting FACs if there's good objections, and go through rejections faster while still making passes take longer. — jdorje (talk) 16:50, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Another suggestion for keeping down the volume and lowering the time for FAC passes would be to require wikiproject support BEFORE a FAC is made. Each wikiproject (possibly discounting the inactive ones) should then be provided their own FAC system, which would work more like a peer-review to catch any holes in FAC articles before they got to FAC. The wikiproject can also, hopefully, provide some assurance that the citations are good. — jdorje (talk) 16:54, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My opinion is that the worst problem with FAC is that it cannot scale; it has a structure that is fundamentally unscalable. We will never have a significant fraction of Wikipedia articles featured unless we solve that problem. Some form of distribution of labour is unavoidable if we want to make it scalable; even if your suggestion were to be adopted and had all the merit you suggest it might, it wouldn't increase the flow by more than ten or twenty percent. That's not enough. And I'd also suggest that if we did indeed end up with a long queue at FAC, and if under that system we assume that the FA director is doing a good job ensuring that the flow is the maximum consonant with a quality process, that implies strongly that without such a queue the process would not be good quality. That's the problem this solution might fix. Mike Christie (talk) 17:11, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Great conversation, glad this place is still alive, thanks for bringing it forward, Ling.Nut (worried about Awadewit, hope you feel better soon). But I do think this is instruction creep and the solution to the problem of the growing list size is far simpler than it appears. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:28, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]