Talk:Eucharist

Talk:Eucharist/Archive 1 Talk:Eucharist/Archive 2

Requests for clarification, expansion

I put some comments into the article on editing it today where I saw that things appeared unclear or needed expansion. Looks good, though; I tried not to mess up all the extensive work that's clearly gone into it. I think it presents a quite balanced perspective, although the issue of whether to classify Anglicans as Protestants or not is problematic (however, this is a problem w/reference to the Anabaptists, as well - on the other side, so to speak). I agree w/the commenters below who say we should talk about Christian's arguments for the origins of the Eucharist as celebrated today, such as the early Christian practice of the agape (see the book of Acts, discussion in book by Dix that I added to the bibliography). The idea of propiation by blood sacrifice as taught in the OT should probably be referenced in this context, as well. Evan Donovan 20:31, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Alleged pre-Christian origins

Just for the record - - I don't have a problem with this section. First, it makes it quite clear that these theories are "alleged" and not "fact". Second, it's at an appropriate place in the article--after we've discussed the major theological takes, liturgical practices, etc. Finally, it belongs here, and not at Transubstantiation (where it began) or on another related article, and the move to this page shows, I think, good faith on the part of the author. If there's any controversy, I say we keep it. KHM03 16:16, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm ambivalent about it, and about the two versions that are reverting back and forth. I just went through and fixed links in the current version. One note, though: as mentioned in the article on cannibalism, ritual cannibalism is actually much rarer than claims of ritual cannibalism. It's much more common for a religious group to be "smeared" with claims of cannibalism by its enemies, or for one to claim to practice cannibalism without actually doing so. Claims that mystery cults actually practiced cannibalism or Omophagy should be treated skeptically here, and it might be better to avoid the issue by focusing more on "the idea of feeding on the life-force of a mystical entity". --Srleffler 05:05, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

True, actual cannibalism is a matter of controversy, but the mythology concerning the practice certaily real. Prof. Barry Powell,Ph.D (University of California-Berkeley), professor of classics, mythology, argues that "Christian notions of eating and drinking "the flesh" and "blood" of Jesus in order for individual followers to celebrate the ratification of the new covenant and to commemorate the sacrifice of the cross and His promise of return, was influenced by the cult of Dionysus. Certainly the Dionysus myth contains a great deal of cannibalism, in its links to Ino. Dionysus was also distinct among Greek gods, as a deity commonly felt within individual followers. In a less benign example of influence on Christianity, Dionysus' followers, as well as another god, Pan, are said to have had the most influence on the modern view of Satan as animal-like and horned." This is quoted from, Classical Myth Third Edition, a standard university text. Giovanni33 08:44, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Are there really many scholars who hold that the first Christians (Jews and people close to the Jewish religion) invented the Eucharist in imitation of Greek or Middle-East mystery religions? Was "feeding on the life-force of a mystical entity" really part of the ritual of, for instance, the Eleusinian Mysteries? Apart from the Dionysiac rites (at least as presented with poetic licence by Euripides), was promoting the eating of raw flesh common in mystery religions? Where did the mystery religions get leaders to conquer and kill so as to "promote the ritual eating of raw flesh and organs of conquered leaders to absorb their power"? Did the Council of Trent really teach that the Eucharist "conveyed in actuality the purported mystical benefits of flesh-eating and blood-drinking that were proclaimed by the proponents of cannibalism"? Lima 09:39, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

No, no one claims that this was invented in imitation. Rather only that the idea is not original but follows, like other ideas found in Christianity, from pre-Christian reglions, either adopted following the same tradition, or copied. Its hard to say. But, the idea is not original or unique. And, it is commonly accepted in secular academic circles that the Chistian shape of the sacred mysteries -- while developed out of creations of Jesus and his apostles -- is strongly influenced by the mystery religions of the Greco-Roman world and the Near East in which it developed. The reality here is that, if you go back and trace the history, you will see that this is quite frimly in the mainsteam of the historical and archeaological evidence.

The Catholic Encylopedia itself ties these non-Christian bloodly rituals. What the Christian Fathers did was invent a new language for the heathen practice of blood sacrifice. The Catholic Encyclopedia (CE) for exmaple us that the doctrine of Holy Communion is morally necessary for salvation, defines sacrifice as a way of attaining communion with God with a sacrificial blood offering, and goes on to associate Christian sacrifice with the various forms of blood sacrifice among pagan religions. It talks about the substition of humans to horses, for example, of drink concoction made of water and flesh which was believed to bring immortality, and ofcourse of animals like sheep, pigs and oxen, and that there is evidence that humans were once offered. The CE goes on to describe Jewish and Canaanite sacrifice. Then it boasts of its superiority because "Christianity knows but one sacrifice". Thus, Christians can continue the practice without experiencing the sight of blood.

"Christianity knows but one sacrifice, the sacrifice which was once offered by Christ in a bloody manner on the tree of the Cross. But in order to apply to individual men in sacrificial form though a constant sacrifice the merits of redemption definitively won by the sacrifice of the Cross, the Redeemer Himself instituted the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to be an unbloody continuation and representation of the bloody sacrifice of Calvary."

So, Christianity, like other religions, share these essential pagan features and functions, with the ritualized blood shedding practices of yore, adopted in a modern fashion. The doctrine of atonement is of heathen origin. It is based on the assumption that no sin can be expiated without the shedding of blood.

The American scholar Camille Paglia refers to herself as a 'disciple of the Cambridge School of Anthropology'. She writes succinctly about pagan mystery religion and Christianity. "Paganism," she states, "recognized, honored and feared nature's daemonism [i.e. its amalgam of both good and evil] and it limited sexual expression by ritual formulae. Christianity was a development of Dionysian mystery religion which paradoxically tried to suppress nature in favor of a transcendental other world." 13 Of the Greek god Dionysus, she writes: "Heir to the Great Mother of chthonian nature, he is, with Osiris, the greatest of the dying gods of mystery religion. Out of his worship came two rituals of enormous impact on western culture, tragic drama and Christian liturgy." 14

Paglia insists "that Christianity could not tolerate the pagan integration of sex, cruelty, and divinity." 15 In the passage below she explains how the worshippers of Dionysus integrated these three elements:

"The violent principle of Dionysian cult is sparagmos, which in Greek means "a rending, tearing, mangling" and secondly "a convulsion, spasm". The body of the god, or a human or animal substitute, is torn to pieces, which are eaten or scattered like seed. Omophagy, ritual eating of raw flesh, is the assimilation and internalization of godhead. Ancient mystery religion was posited on the worshipper's imitation of the god. Cannibalism was impersonation, a primitive theater. You are what you eat. The body parts of dismembered Osiris, scattered across the earth, were collected by Isis, who founded a shrine at each site. Before his arrest, Jesus tears the Passover bread for his disciples: "Take, eat: this is my body" (Mt.26:26). At every Christian service, wafers and wine are changed into Christ's body and blood, consumed by the worshipper. In Catholicism, this is not symbolic but literal. Transubstantiation is cannibalism. Dionysian sparagmos was an ecstasy of sexual excitation and superhuman strength...The scattering of sparagmos inseminated the earth. Hence swallowing the god's parts was an act of love. 16 Paglia buttresses her arguments with quotations from the Greek biographer and moralist Plutarch who lived near the time of Jesus: "Plutarch says dismemberment is a metaphor for Dionysus' metamorphoses "into winds and water, earth and stars, and into the generations of plants and animals". Dionysus, like Proteus, shifts through all forms of beings, high to low. Human, animal, plant, mineral: none has special status. All are equalized and sacralized in the continuum of natural energy...Plutarch says "riddles and fabulous tales" about Dionysus "construct destructions and disappearances, followed by returns to life and regenerations". Mystery religions offered initiates eternal life. Promise of resurrection was and is a major reason for Christianity's spread." 17 13. Camille Paglia, Sexual Personae: Art and Decadence from Nefertiti to Emily Dickinson (New York: Random House, 1991) 25.

14. Paglia 88-89.

15. Paglia 138.

16. Paglia 95.

17. Paglia 95-96. 216.104.211.5 17:49, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Giovanni33 20:11, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Paglia might not be the best reference to show broad support. Her ideas in other areas have certainly been controversial and unconventional. There is some discussion of this issue at the article on Dionysus, however.--Srleffler 23:04, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I submit that my questions about the origin of the Eucharist have not been answered. What Giovanni33 says at length above would be pertinent if the Eucharist had first appeared in, say, the second century. But is it really believable that the very first Christians, of Jewish background, chose to institute a rite based on an "idea (that was) not original but (that) follow(ed), like other ideas found in Christianity, from pre-Christian reglions, either adopted following the same tradition, or copied"? It was clearly not "adopted following the same tradition", and it is highly unlikely that people of that background would have "copied" it from such a source as Giovanni33 indicates.

Talking about "getting off the relevant points of the section", is not this basic point about the time and ambience of the appearance of the Eucharistic rite decidedly relevant?

Lima 08:36, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

You ask, "But is it really believable that the very first Christians, of Jewish background, chose to institute a rite based on an "idea (that was) not original but (that) follow(ed), like other ideas found in Christianity, from pre-Christian reglions, either adopted following the same tradition, or copied"? To answer your question, yes, althogh these connections may simply be religious archetypes.

Christianity adopted and absorbed--as it was bound to do--many world-wide doctrines found in older religious. This is true with most of the main doctrines of Christianity--namely, those of Sin and Sacrifice, the Eucharist, the Saviour, the Second Birth, and Transfiguration. They all show that they are by no means unique in for this religion, but were common to nearly all the religions of the ancient world. What we see is simply giving these older notions new fine spiritual significance, a redressing, while it often also narrowed the application and outlook of the doctrine down to a special case. The same happened with regard to other Pagan doctrine, the doctrine of transformations and metamorphoses; whereas the pagans believed in these things, as the common and possible heritage of every man, the Christians only allowed themselves to entertain the idea in the special and unique instance of the Transfiguration of Christ.

The basics of the Eucharist had a widespread celebration (under very various forms) among the pagans all over the world. By partaking of the sacramental meal, even in its wildest and crudest shapes, as in the mysteries of Dionysus, one was identified with and united to the god; in its milder and more spiritual aspects as in the Mithraic, Egyptian, Hindu and Christian cults, one passed behind the veil of maya and this ever-changing world, and entered into the region of divine peace and power.

A lot of this is just substantial amelioration of a more modern outlook with regard to these matters, but the same had begun already before the advent of Christianity and can by no means be ascribed to any miraculous influence of that religion. Abraham was prompted to slay a ram as a substitute for his son, long before the Christians were thought of; the rather savage Artemis of the old Greek rites was (according to Pausanias)1 honored by the yearly sacrifice of a perfect boy and girl, but later it was deemed sufficient to draw a knife across their throats as a symbol, with the result of spilling only a few drops of their blood, or to flog the boys (with the same result) upon her altar. Among the Khonds in old days many victims (meriahs) were sacrificed to the gods, "but in time the man was replaced by a horse, the horse by a bull, the bull by a ram, the ram by a kid, the kid by fowls, and the fowls by many flowers."[2]

[1] vii. 19, and iii. 8, 16.

[2] Primitive Folk, by Elie Reclus (Contemp. Science Series), p. 330.

In respect to these main religious ideas, and the matter underlying them (exclusive of the manner of their treatment), Christianity is of one piece with the earlier pagan creeds and is for the most part a re-statement and renewed expression of much wider and earlier doctrines.

64.121.40.153 19:58, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Giovanni33 wrote, The doctrine of atonement is of heathen origin. It is based on the assumption that no sin can be expiated without the shedding of blood. It's true that this idea is found in many heathen religions, but it is also found in the Hebrew religion, and undergirds the whole idea and practice of offering animal sacrifices to atone for sins. This idea is firmly grounded in the Tanakh. As Christianity has always claimed the Tanakh as its basis, adopted it as the Old Testament (mainly using the Septuagint at first), and quoting it extensively in the New Testament as authoritative, it is much more straightforward to suppose that Christianity borrowed this idea from the Hebrew religion rather than surrounding mystery cults. Wesley 17:08, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Even if User:64.121.40.153 (non-logged-in Giovanni33? or perhaps not) were to argue more convincingly that the Eucharist originated in the conscious or unconscious wish of the very first Christians to establish a rite such as User:64.121.40.153 pictures, that would be no reason to exclude from the article a contrary point of view.

There is no need for User:64.121.40.153 to state the obvious fact that Christianity, growing at first in a Jewish and philo-Jewish ambience, considered sacred the same writings that the Jews considered sacred, believed in God and in sin and expiation by animal sacrifices.

The Letter to the Hebrews seems to have been written for Christians who were discouraged at being excluded from Jewish worship and its animal sacrifices. It was written long after the Eucharist was established, but nowhere tells its addressees: "But you have in the Eucharist, a replacement - according to Giovanni33/User:64.121.40.153 - for animal and even human sacrifices."

The thesis of Giovanni33/User:64.121.40.153 about the origin of the Eucharist might be believable, if it referred to something that arose in Christianity of the fourth, fifth, and sixteenth centuries and whatever century the "Theses of Bonn" (whatever they are) belong to. That would give time to absorb non-Jewish influences. But there is written evidence from the year 57 that, even that early, the Eucharist was a long-established practice.

The reenactment by the first Christians of something - whatever it was - that Jesus did and said at his last supper is far more likely to be the origin of this practice than the learned (i.e. recherché) interpretations that some "scholars" have attached to it much later. People learned or unlearned repeatedly attach meanings inspired by imagination or superstition to many things that happen even my mere accident, but the archetypes that inspire those interpretations are not the origin of the things that happen. Are we or are we not discussing origins, not interpretations?

Lima 08:20, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Remember, though, that the section is called "alleged", not "proven". Also, it makes clear that it is not a universal belief among historians, and it's relatively brief. Seems pretty fair to me. KHM03 12:38, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

And to me, as long as it keeps more views than that of Giovanni33/User:64.121.40.153. Lima 13:45, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I hope you are content to leave it to the version worked out by Nrgdocadams, which I accept; its respects your content but does so accurately and with NPOV language. Giovanni33 01:44, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I removed this bit: (who are said to have promoted Omophagy, the ritual eating of raw flesh and organs of conquered leaders to absorb their power). I have asked several times on related Talk pages which groups in this region actually practiced this, and the only answer I recall seeing was that the various legends had cannibalistic elements in them. And incidentally, please don't assume that because I made a few edits to that paragraph, that I fully support everything else in that paragraph. All it means is that I'm tackling it in small pieces. Wesley 04:45, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

A great improvement. When this section began, it claimed in its title to identify the origins of the Eucharist. I altered that to "alleged origins". At last, the section withdraws its claim to discern the origins. I hope Giovanni33 will be content to leave the section free of its previous presentation of only one interpretation of the Eucharistic rite. If, instead, he insists on presenting only his own interpretation, he should move the section up to where other individual interpretations are presented and place it, most likely, immediately after "Zwinglian Reformed: no Real Presence". It need not then be written in neutral-point-of-view form. Perhaps that will please him best. Lima 10:22, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

"No" to that move, unless there is a non-negligible group of Christians who hold this belief. The section on Christian theology is for documenting the beliefs of groups of Christians. A scholarly theory about the origins of Christian doctrine is certainly notable and deserves inclusion in the article, but should not be placed as a subsection of "Christian theology", unless it is.--Srleffler 02:12, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I reverted back to the last version by Wesley. I take it that Lima is not happy with the compromised version by Nrgdoc, which was respectful to your POV but removed all the blatent POV language that your passage much too polemical. I was content with Nrgoc's version, even with the version by Wesley. But not with your latests change, which I consider pushing a POV in violation of NPOV policy, again. If we compare the verisons, we see you repeating your POV, again, unnessarily being redunant and changing the meanings to include somethting that was never a stated claim before, specifically, "proponents of the above interpretation suppose that these - and perhaps Paul himself, in spite of his very strict Jewish background - were attaching to the existing Christian rite notions connected with these cults.''

Lets look at both versions:

The compromised version:

Other scholars therefore argue that the reenactment by these very first Christians of something that Jesus did and said at his last — a unique form of Table fellowship — has precedence in the origin of the practice, rather than than the interpretations of Greco-Roman mystery religions that other writers might attach to it. By the time of the writing of Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, however, Christianity was spreading among those who were former adherents of the Greco-Roman mystery cults.

Your version:

Other scholars therefore argue that the practice must originally have arisen as a reenactment by these very first Christians of something that Jesus did and said at his last supper, what has been called "a unique form of Table fellowship". However, by the time Paul wrote his first letter to the Corinthians, Christianity was spreading among people who may have had contact with Greek mystery cults, and proponents of the above interpretation suppose that these - and perhaps Paul himself, in spite of his very strict Jewish background - were attaching to the existing Christian rite notions connected with these cults.

Notice that your version simply restates the same idea aleady stated earlier in the same paragraph, and is evidence of POV pushing:

Christianity thus began among people who would reject any idea of eating actual human flesh and drinking blood of any kind, who avoided pagan mystery cults, and who would completely exclude a cannibalistic interpretation of their "eating this bread and drinking this cup."

Giovanni33 17:46, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Giovanni, can you provide any evidence or reference for this sentence, especially the part in bold?

By the time of the writing of Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, however, Christianity was spreading among those who were former adherents of the Greco-Roman mystery cults.

Thanks for your cooperation. Str1977 18:15, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Given the short time span we are talking about (circa 57 AD for 1Cor, circa 80 AD for Acts), "was spreading" and "who were former adherents" is a little strong. If we keep this sentence (i.e., if it can be substantiated and referenced), I'd suggest:

By the time of the writing of Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, however, Christianity was beginning to spread among those who may have been former adherents of the Greco-Roman mystery cults.

JHCC (talk) 18:52, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

JHCC's wording is fine with me.Weren't all if not most of the gentile converts to Christianity formerly lifetime Pagans?64.121.40.153 20:58, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I'd be careful about drawing an equivalence between pagans (which would have included practically any non-Jewish or non-Christian) and initiates (or adherents) of mystery religions. Simply put, all mystery-religionists were pagan, but not all pagans were mystery-religionists. JHCC (talk) 21:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I still consider the passage without foundation and without function in the paragraph. Str1977 23:29, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Hence "If we keep this sentence (i.e., if it can be substantiated and referenced)..." That's still an open question, and I proposed no answer to it. JHCC (talk) 01:29, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree, JHCC, I am asking Giovanni to substantiate and reference the passage. Otherwise it should go. 11:40, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I have a problem with the latest addition by Lima. I did not remove it but left it there, to get conensus here: " and may have attached to the rite meanings not originally associated with it." Seems to me this is POV with weasle wording. 64.121.40.153 17:02, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Giovanni/64, may I point you to my request above? Str1977 17:46, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi Str1977. Yes, I saw your question but I wondered if you were serious. Before i go digging I think I can defend this on logical ground based on what we both already accept facts. That is, what reason would you give to suggest how such would not be the case, given that logically we can infer as much? How was it that Christianity became the professed faith of the Roman Empire, formally based on the mystery cults, and then began to spread beyond its borders? Christianity was very close and intimate with numerous mystery cults, such as Mitraism, as well as the closley associated Hermeticism and Gnosticism. We agree that gentile converts to Christianity were all formerly lifetime Pagans, and while its true that all mystery-religionists were pagan, but not all pagans were mystery-religionists, surely you would not doubt there is a subset of those who were members of mystery religious like Mitharism, which were almost identical to the Christians in so many ways, would not be absorbed by Christianity as one triumphed over the other? Is it not a fact that Christianity first established itself and grew in these very regions, detracting from the growth of its rival, Mithraism, and perhaps absorbing it, and erasing it? As a prime example was not the Emperor Constantine himself an adherent to a mystery cult, perhaps even after he was a self professed Christian? Prior to the accession of Constantine, Mithraism was more estabalished than Christianity. This religion was finally defeated because Christianity ascended the throne and became Caesarised. The transition, though, from Mithraism to Christianity, was not altogether abrupp, because the Christ-mystery, which replaced the Mithra-mystery, also dealt with the same themes, i.e. Perfecting of Man, etc. I don't think you will find anyone really doubting that former adherents to mystery cults would be attracted to the very similary mystery aspects that Christianity also embraced. 64.121.40.153 23:17, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi Giovanni (assuming it is you, you could finally settle for your account),

Appearently you do not take my question seriously. The Roman Empire was not based on mystery cults at all. Pagans are not necessarily mystery cultists. And we are not talking about "woulds" and "ifs" and logical conclusions. There is no "logical" in history. There are countless logical things that didn't happen. And quite many illogical things do happen in history. According to Ranke, Historiography deals with what actually happened:

So the question remains in regard to the sentence:

By the time of the writing of Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, however, Christianity was beginning to spread among people of whom some may have been former adherents of the Greco-Roman mystery cults and may have attached to the rite meanings not originally associated with it.

1) What actually is the narrative function of this passage in the paragraph?

2) Do you have any evidence for Christianity spreading among mystery cultists on a large scale, or do you have any reference for someone arguing that this happend?

I'd appreciate if you'd take this seriously for once. Str1977 00:12, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm still wondering about this passage, and wonder if its really making an accurate point that is relevant. I guess it is, in a sense to the point of a canabilisitic interpreation of some scholars, but it is missing (or glossing over) the fact that Jews did practice animal blood sacrafice, no? The passage:

The first Christians were either Jews themselves ...Christianity thus began among people who would reject any idea of ...and who would completely exclude a cannibalistic interpretation of their "eating this bread and drinking this cup" (1 Corinthians 11:28), a rite which they nevertheless believed brought them into true relationship with the body and blood of Christ.

I think it should include that "Athough it excluded a canabalistic interpreation, blood sacrafice was part of it's traditions nonetheless..." 64.121.40.153 23:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Why should it include this? We are not talking about blood sacrifice (with the exception that Jesus' death is seen as a sacrifice represented in the Eucharist). Str1977 00:12, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Gentile converts, some of them were likely already sympathetic to Judaism, but hadn't fully converted. Some were worshippers of the 'traditional' Roman or Greek gods; you wouldn't include these among the 'mystery cults' would you? Wesley 23:06, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

More theophagy

This is a problem:

In a spiritual sense, Christianity promoted the idea that their "unbloody mysteries" [cf. Basil the Great (c. 329-379), John Chrysostom (c. 347-407), Council of Trent (1546-1563), Theses of Bonn (1874) conveyed in actuality the purported mystical benefits of flesh-eating and blood-drinking that were proclaimed by the proponents of animal sacrifices and of cannibalism among the mystery cults. Accordingly, the Christain writers argue that Christianity presents "true" Theophagy in an "unbloody" manner.

Question: are Basil, John, the Council, and the Theses cited (A) as references of the use of the phrase "unbloody mysteries" or (B) as promoters of the idea that the Eucharist "convey[s] in actuality the purported mystical benefits [...] that were proclaimed [...] among the mystery cults"? If (A), then their inclusion here is of limited relevance. If (B), then quotes and references are necessary to demonstrate that these people actually promoted this idea. "The Christain writers" is similarly vague and in need of citation and verification. JHCC (talk) 18:52, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Basil, Chrysostom, Trent, and the Old Catholics would surely have been horrified at the suggestion that they were promoting such an idea. Lima 05:41, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, Basil, John, Trent, and the Old-Catholics all use terms along the lines of "unbloody mysteries" and propose that the Eucharist actually conveys the mystical benenfits of what the Mystery Cults and animal sacrifice could only approximate in bare (and some would argue, perverse) shadows. In other words, their position is that the Eucharist is true Theophagy, while the mystery cults and the animal sacrifices were only attempts (sometimes horrific attempts) at Theophagy. Nrgdocadams 11:12, 8 February 2006 (UTC)Nrgdocadams

Nrgdocadams, since "Content [...] must be verifiable", could you please provide specific quotes to verify this assertion? I'm not saying that you are wrong, and I'm willing to grant the use of the term "unbloody mysteries" (which is well documented), but the further assertion needs to be substantiated (no pun intended). Specifically, where do Basil, John, Trent, & the O.C.s make this proposal? What exactly do they say? (Direct quotes would be useful here.) Do they make the specific comparison between the Eucharist and animal (and human) sacrifice? You say that "their position is that the Eucharist is true Theophagy" — however, we cannot ascribe this position to them unless they so state it themselves.

Your first statement, that they "propose that the Eucharist actually conveys the mystical benenfits of what the Mystery Cults and animal sacrifice could only approximate in bare (and some would argue, perverse) shadows" is, I think, quite accurate. However, since "theophagy" is not an ancient term (not in LSJ, originally appears in the OED as a nonce word), ascribing to ancient writers a position based on a modern scholarly term is at best shaky and at worst misleading. JHCC (talk) 14:22, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

JHCC, I think its clear that Basil, John, Trent, and the Old-Catholics are referenced on the use and idea "unbloody mysteries." The concept, though, that the Eucharist conveys the mystical benenfit, is also stated in the Catholic doctine. What other scholars do (and is the point of the passage) is to tie these ideas into the very same ideas of Mystery Cults and animal sacrifice, although in different and more direct form. At best you could argue that inclusion of these catholic fathers are not needed to reference these notions of the "unbloody mysteries," as it is well known, but it doesn't hurt to include them either. The fact that the term "unbloody" is used is a direct contrast to the historically "bloody" version, which all contain similiar suppositions of what is happening: sacrafice, killing, blood= mystical benefits. The point is that this is not original to Christianity, and are found in the mystery religions. The other point is that the Christians make a point that theirs are "unbloody." Giovanni33 18:39, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

The Council of Trent said that the same Christ who once offered himself in a bloody manner on the altar of the Cross is contained and offered in an unbloody manner in the sacrifice accomplished in the Mass (Session XXII, chapter II). Only at this point did the Council use the word "unbloody". Nowhere did the Council use the phrase "unbloody mysteries". Nowhere did the Council "use the term 'unbloody' (mysteries) in direct contrast to the historically 'bloody' version." The Council quite obviously gave no thought whatever to "the purported mystical benefits of flesh-eating and blood-drinking that were proclaimed by the proponents of animal sacrifices and of cannibalism among the mystery cults." Attributing such an idea to the Council is - I do not know what word to use: "forgery" might be too strong. I presume that the passages in Basil and John Chrysostom, and in the Theses of Bonn, that Giovanni33 has still failed to identify - "Content ... must be verifiable" - also do not fit his picture (his caricature?) of their ideas, and that it is a complete distortion to say that "the Christian writers (those mentioned, or unidentified others?) argue that Christianity presents 'true' Theophagy in an 'unbloody' manner." Lima 19:54, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Be quiet and drink your blood. KHM03 19:58, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

They use the word "unbloody" AND the also use the word "mysteries" to describe the Eucharist, its purported benefits. So its perfectly clear that "unbloody mysteries" is well in keeping with the meaning of the Catholic Church. And, they did contrast this with the "bloody mysteries" of the pagans. Infact that was one of their arguments--they theirs is unbloody, while the heathens are "bloody mysteries." See: [1] "Demolition of the Idolatrous Temples at Alexandria, and the Consequent Conflict between the Pagans and Christians." Where it states, " Seizing this opportunity, Theophilus exerted himself to the utmost to expose the pagan mysteries to contempt. And to begin with, he caused the Mithreum to be cleaned out, and exhibited to public view the tokens of its bloody mysteries.

The important part is that these Christian self described mysteries of the Eucharist, which ofcourse is "unbloody" (hence unbloody mysteries) do purported the same mystery benefits as purported by the other religions, as mantained by scholars. See in the Catholic Encyclopedia: [2]

[3] [4]

Where you will find ample talk such as "the sacred mysteries in an unbloody manner, for the daily application of that one sacrifice of redemption to our souls. of Christ's Body and Blood or the unbloody Sacrifice of the Eucharistic Lamb"... as the property constituted celebrants of the Eucharistic Mysteries, ...etc. etc. 64.121.40.153 21:55, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Unlogged-in Giovanni33, though prepared to reason more logically than KHM03, still has not responded to JHCC's challenge by citing even one passage of Basil, Chrysostom, Trent, or the Old Catholics that associates the Eucharist with the pagan bloody mysteries. Not even Theophilus is said to have made that association when he had the Mithraeum cleaned out. (I am unaware of any evidence that devotees of Mithraism, who were baptized in a bull's blood, thought they ate a god; but that is just by the way.) I do not know whether some authoritative Christian writers did associate the Eucharist with pagan mysteries. Perhaps they did, but Giovanni33 has certainly failed to substantiate his suggestion that they did so. When they speak of "bloody" and "unbloody" in connection with the Eucharist, it seems that they only contrast the sacramental re-presentation of the sacrifice of Christ with its historical offering on Calvary, and that pagan mysteries are in no way part of the context. Do they even once mention "bloody" or "unbloody" when speaking, not about the sacrifice aspect of the Eucharist, but about the communion aspect, i.e. the eating and drinking? I do not believe they ever do. Lima 08:35, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I think we have a misunderstanding here. Basil, Trent, etc. are not referenced as saying they associate their unbloody mysteries with pagan practices. Other scholars do so, and the passages, simply states that their unbloody mysteries purported the mystical attributes that other religions also claim. No one claims that pagan practices are part of the context of the Eucharist. Only that they also claim bloody mysteries which are very similar to the Christian mysteries, bloody or unbloody. The refrence to Basil, Trent, etc is actually unneeded. It was an addition by Nrgdocadams, and he may want to substanciate it. From my readings, its clear they would embrace the doctrine of the unbloody mysteries, which is all that needs to be shown, as far as what the passage says. The association with other rituals, is an association made by other scholars, although Christians do emphasis their as "unbloody mysteries," and pagan ones as "bloody mysteries," as I've shown. The example in Mithranism, which you doubt about, is interesting to look at.

The scholars are agreed, from a message scratched in a second century Mithraeum, that Mithras promised his worshippers immortality: And us, too, you saved by spilling the eternal blood.Mithras slayed the Cosmic Bull, and from this bull he obtained the “eternal blood” that was shed for the salvation of mankind.

He who will not eat of my body, nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and am I commingled with him, shall not be saved.

Mithraic Communion (M J Vermaseren, Mithras, The Secret God)

The literary and archaeological remains of the religion of Mithras suggest that the salvation of man, symbolized by the slaying of the Primaeval Bull, is ritualized in a communal holy meal with the brethren. Evidence that this divine supper came from Persian religion is the terminology. Professor Moghdam tells us the Persian for a “good meal” meaning a “sacred meal” is “hu-khoresht” where the meat is Persian “nushkhare”, the edible thing of immortality, and “nushabe” is the water of immortality. The Greek form of the “hu-khoresht” is “eucharist”. Moreover, two ancient Iranian words for the holy repast in the Gathas are “myazda” and “myastra”. Moghdam believes the first form transposed into the Persian “miz” and Latin “mass”, and the second form gives Greek “mysterion”, mystery.

This is evidence that the votaries of Mithras came to think of their holy suppers as theophagous, with the cannibalistic implications of the Christian eucharist. Their Last Suppers commemorated, and possibly imitated, the sacred meal at which Mithras and his assistants, celebrating their victory over the powers of evil, partook of bread and wine, the bread being made from the wheat that sprang from the spine of the slain bull, and the wine from the grapes that sprang from the bull’s blood. The Mithraic concept of redemption by blood appears in the taurobolia celebrated by the religious in the waning Roman Empire—in a lustrum, they were cleansed of their sins by the blood of a bull that was slain in imitation of Mithras’s slaying of the Primæval Bull. However, there is no way of inferring that a bull was actually sacrificed and eaten. Most mithraea seated less than 40 worshippers and the rooms were too small for bull sacrifices. Giovanni33 10:15, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Just commenting on the etymologies mentioned:

Eucharist" means "thanksgiving" in Greek, the syllable "eu-" indeed means good. However,does that Professor Moghdam relate that there was such a meal under the term “hu-khoresht” in any Persian religion?

Even if there were such a Persian rite, the connection remains conjectural and speculative. The argument presupposes that there was an actual connection, It also forgets that both Greek and Persian belong to one language family, hence remote linguistical similarities don't prove anything.

The argument in regard to "Mass" cannot be taken seriosly at all. The term "Mass" derives from Latin "Missa" which means "sent out". "Missa" is short for "Ite Missa est", which is the final part of the Latin Liturgy and the term was adopted as a name for the whole service (just as opening words were (are) often used as titles for books). This only applies to the Latin liturgy and not to the Greek and even in Latin it was adopted as a name quite late. Str1977 12:07, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Giovanni33 has written at length on what I mentioned merely "by the way", yet has produced no serious evidence that devotees of Mithraism thought that in their ritual meals they were eating their god, any more than the Jews thought that in eating the meat of sacrificed animals they were eating the LORD. Str1977 has shown how ridiculous are the alleged etymologies advanced as evidence. Much more important, leaving the "by the way" aside, Giovanni33 still has not quoted any apposite text of the Christian writers (whether included in the list of another imaginative contributor or not) who - according to the words Giovanni33 himself reinserted at 18:29 on 10 February 2006 - promoted the idea that the Eucharist conveys, not just "certain purported mystical benefits", but "the purported mystical benefits of flesh-eating and blood-drinking that were proclaimed by the proponents of animal sacrifices and of cannibalism among the mystery cults", and who allegedly "argue" - not just suppose or envisage or take for granted - "that Christianity presents 'true' Theophagy in an 'unbloody' manner." If Giovanni33 cannot substantiate this statement, will he now revert his reinsertion or otherwise correct his statement? Lima 10:35, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

While I think we can agree that Christianity did not develop in a vacuum, it still seems much more obvious that their idea of sacrifice derived primarily from Judaism and its system of animal sacrifice. Surely this similarity (and other similarities with Temple Judaism) should gain at least as much coverage as these mystery cult theories. Also, before my edit the paragraph in question did make it sound as though it were the early Christian writers themselves who were claiming a connection between the Eucharist and some cannibalistic practices; from reading this discussion I think this may not even be what Giovanni33 intended. Wesley 23:10, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Anglican

I rewrote the Anglican section at Eucharistic_theologies_contrasted since it was quite Anglo-Catholic in POV. I think we could improve the page here in a similar manner by outlining the various Anglican schools of thought but in a little more depth than was possible there, giving the background of what the BCP and 39 Articles say and how the various parties within Anglicanism differ over their attitude to those doctrinal statements. There's also the section on Anglicanism at Real Presence to consider. Some of that article is reproduced here under Eucharist (or vice versa). I left some comments on the talk page of Real Presence which would equally apply here. I think being as non-POV as possible (most of the articles still betray an Anglo-Catholic or general High Church bias) and trying to achieve some uniformity across these various pages would be a good idea. Could we write a general outline of the various approaches to Anglican Eucharistic theology here, linking to a more detailed analysis of the dispute over the Real Presence at Real Presence? What do people think? Apodeictic 11:43, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

What would you want to add, without making the section too large and unwieldy? Given your interests, you might consider starting a new article on the Anglican views of the Eucharist. KHM03 (talk) 13:09, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

The fact is that historically, Anglicans do believe the Eucharist to be a sacrifice. Saepius Officio is quite clear on that, to give just one example. We need to be careful to remember that being NPOV doesn't mean making everyone happy. For a further example, many "Roman" Catholics aren't transubstantiationists. Should we then have to change that entry in this article? Let's be careful to be factually honest as well as neutral. Valer 04:14, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

verse references containing breaking of bread

I removed the reference to Acts 2:46. The one before it in 2:42 is considered to refer to the Lord's Supper while 46 is considered a daily fellowship.

I added Acts 20:7 as another clear reference to breaking bread. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Victoria h (talk • contribs) 05:22, 28 March 2006.

Different Eucharists?

I added a section that spoke of how the Eucharist was recorded differently between different people. Furthermore, I added the fact that the modern Eucharist with alleged pagan connections most probably began after Paul thought it was wise to do so after a vision. This is contrasted with what we commonly believe if we take the historical Jesus as fact--the eucharist was recorded (or remembered) by someone who knew the flesh and blood Jesus. Paul's testimony does not indicate this.66.66.178.153 19:47, 29 July 2006 (UTC)Craig truglia

Hello, Craig. I'm afraid I had to remove your edit, as it violates WP:NOR. It's like a personal essay, suddenly inserted into a Wikipedia article. Some of it could be incorporated into the article if you get sources, so that it's not just what you say (being made to seem like what Wikipedia says), but that it's Wikipedia reporting that Professor X, in his 1997 essay on the origin of the Eucharist argues that . . . while Professor Y contends that . . . . It has to be named, published sources, not weasel words. Also, in your first version, you actually included your signature in the article! There were also some inconsistencies in style, for example, spelling Eucharist with lower case e, spelling mistakes (diety instead of deity), and errors in wiki-linking. Finally, it's not appropriate to make such a huge addition without getting consensus on the talk page first. I suggest going through the edit you want to add, point by point, and seeing what people think at the talk page. Cheers. AnnH ♫ 20:24, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

. . . Thanks for your input. It is an issue not talked about enough, not even in scholarship...but that's why it has no place here. Thanks for correcting me.

"alleged" etc.

I do not see why the Graeco-Roman aspects of the ritual are treated as if they were controversial. They are obviously present, it is just a question of whether one thinks it useful to examine them. From the point of view of a practitioner, it is of course irrelevant how the ritual originated: that doesn't make for a controversy, just for lack of interest in the question. dab (ᛏ) 10:51, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Is not Dbachmann's added phrase, "This transformation of cruder rituals", itself controversial, since it presents as fact the notion that the Eucharist was such a transformation? While the notion has been put forward by writers that Dbachmann seems to trust implicitly, it is not how everyone (dare I say, how the great majority of writers) understand the earliest texts about the Eucharist. These texts give no hint that the rite of the Eucharist was of Graeco-Roman origin, rather than Jewish. Are Dbachmann's writers any less imaginative and ill-founded in their interpretation of the evidence than Michael Cacoyannis in his interpretation of Euripides? If their notion is reported in objective terms in the article on the Eucharist, the opposing view should also be given in equally objective terms. There is an opposing view. The question is controversial. Presenting Dbachmann's notion as fact is POV. Lima 13:14, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Prasad

I, for one, do not understand Prasad as related to the Eucharist. But only if supported by others, will I remove it from "See also". Lima 09:02, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Already did it. As described in the article, prasad is not significantly different from Greco-Roman pagan sacrifices, where a portion of the animal was offered to the god and the remainder consumed by the worshipers as part of the rite. Christians have always drawn very sharp distinctions between this and the Eucharist, to the point where they are positively forbidden to consume anything offered in sacrifice to a pagan god. I would say rather that the editor insisting on the link doesn't properly understand the Eucharist. Perhaps this points to a shortcoming in the article, or perhaps the editor simply didn't read it. TCC (talk) (contribs) 09:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)