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Copyediting

• It's not a strong preference, but I would delete "where he realized as an adolescent that he was homosexual" from the lead section. I know you've got a lot to squeeze into a little space, but somehow, that just interrupts the logical flow of the narrative for me. On the plus side, since it concerns adolescence, you can get it in very early in the article, which makes it less urgent to get it into the lead. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 02:57, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Gone. As usual, Dan, just fix what you see needs it. If I see accuracy compromised I'll let you know. --Moni3 (talk) 03:03, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

• Slashing and burning (just kidding). Per AP Stylebook, no need for "[B]...", you can change the case of the first letter without brackets. James Buchanan was a historical gay figure; Milk was a historic gay figure. (And also per AP Stylebook, a historic, not an historic.) More coming. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 03:17, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
• I think I don't like "friends recalled" in the lead section; is there some doubt as to whether he was restless and easily bored? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 03:24, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

No, just their observations. It can go - it's in the text. --Moni3 (talk) 03:28, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

• What's the antecedent to "it" in the last sentence in the quote in the lead section? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 03:30, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

• "Despite his differences with the San Francisco gay establishment and his occasionally unethical behavior, Milk succeeded in riding the crest of a wave that had been gathering strength for some years. During the beatnik/hippie period the city had become a mecca for all sorts of disaffected people, while retaining its old ethnic mosaic. Milk anticipated the later strategy of the "rainbow coalition" but because of his personal gifts..." I liked the quote in the 2nd part, but couldn't understand and didn't want to confuse readers with this encyclopedia article's treatment of Jesse Jackson's Rainbow Coalition. I'm willing to toss it and find another quote about Milk's influence if the article warrants it. --Moni3 (talk) 13:46, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Okay, the author is referring coalition-building among disaffected voters, but that seems a little wordy, so I went with "a coalition of disaffected voters"; does that work? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 23:31, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

• "Russian-Jewish parents and the grandson of a Lithuanian salesman": not wrong, but it raises more questions than it answers. Did a Lithuanian salesman move to Russia, have children, and move to the U.S.? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 04:08, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

• There was probably a grandmother in there, too. One source says Russian parents, another says Lithuanian grandfather. If you want to make it more vague and encompass the family tree and Eastern Europe somehow, let me know how to do that. --Moni3 (talk) 13:46, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

In that case, I'll change it to eastern European Jewish parents to be safe. I wasn't able to find anything searching for "Harvey Milk" "Lithuania" - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 23:48, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

P.S. If one source seems more credible than the other, if they have details that seem to support either the Lithuanian or the Russian claim, then feel free to stick the one that's supported back in, if you like. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 02:10, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

• I deleted (something like) "earned him the nickname Glimpy Milch". I think some readers will have the reaction I had...wondering what "glimpy" means and what would earn you that nickname (and then I see it gets only 4600 ghits and doesn't seem to mean anything), and wondering if "milch" was misspelled (it wasn't; it was probably Yiddish and might have been a spelling his Lithuanian grandfather used). I left "Glimpy" in the next sentence, without comment. Feel free to add it back if it's important. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 04:59, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

• The day the film trailer came out, this article in its former state got 24,000 hits. Glimpy Milch is probably Yiddish for something (Sorry, Harvey, that only goys are writing this). Maybe I'll ask someone with familiarity with Yiddish, but how would I know? And how could I determine that not to be OR? Urgh. I changed the use of "Harvey" to the more formal "Milk" to make it consistent. --Moni3 (talk) 13:46, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I can usually find ghits for Yiddish words; I'm getting nothing in the first 7 pages on either "glimpy" or "glimp" that looks like anything but random proper names and online aliases. What we've got now looks fine. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 23:59, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

• "... Milk could not stand to be bored in his work, and without fail chose romantic partners who were younger and needed an inordinate amount of attention." Doesn't feel right to me; I'm thinking there needs to be some connection between the two halves of the sentence; is there? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 05:10, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

• Sorry, Dan. Not sure what you're looking for. I'll be happy to restructure if I can understand what's stickin' in your craw about this. --Moni3 (talk) 22:26, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Things in the same sentence should have a connection to each other. Are you saying the connection is that he needed to stay busy both at work and in relationships? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 23:59, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

• "the neighborhood entered a depression": What do the sources say? You hear "depressed neighborhood" sometimes, but that's too vague for my taste. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 12:38, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
• "a gay bar opened on Castro Street and real estate prices plummeted even farther": this is where people start grumbling about WP:SYNTH. Was there a connection between the two? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 05:24, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

• Not so much synth. Strange de Jim says the first gay bar that opened in the neighborhood was the Missouri Mule in 1963. Shilts says it was The Gem (no year). Says de Jim of the early 1960s: "Who would have guessed what was about to happen to the neighborhood? In the next few years young families would move out of the area, either because they wanted to raise their kids in the suburbs or because blue-collar jobs in San Francisco were disappearing. Real estate values would fall, and businesses would close on Castro Street." Says Shilts: "(Allen) Baird (Teamsters organizer working with Milk on the Coors beer boycott) never saw anything like the panic that followed the establishment of the first gay bar on Castro Street in the late 1960s. The stolid Irish families sold their Victorians at dirt-cheap prices, fearing greater loss if they waited. By 1973, the number sof gays moving into the neighborhood amounted to an invasion. That;s what the old-timers called the new men of Castro Street - invaders. Now it was 1973 and Baird figured at least half the people moving in were gay, while more of the old-timers sold out." --Moni3 (talk) 15:08, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

That's helpful, I rephrased.

• Be back later today. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 12:36, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
• Is it okay to change "another city supervisor who was troubled because he recently resigned and wanted his job back" to "another city supervisor who had recently resigned and wanted his job back"? I don't want to say why exactly Dan White was troubled in the lead; that's a long story. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 15:44, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

• Yeh, that's fine. Not sure what it said yesterday, but it didn't make a lick of sense. --Moni3 (talk) 15:49, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

• Okey doke; I copyedited down to Change and John took it from there to the end; his first Wikipedia copyediting job, and he enjoyed the article and the job. I have to catch up on WP:1C copyediting now so I'm unwatchlisting, but please holler if I can make myself useful. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 00:53, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Images

I've done some scouting for images. I have signed an agreement with the San Francisco Public Library to use three images of Milk for the article. But agreements from institutions don't always work with Wikimedia. The Florida Archives had me sign something that did not work in my favor for two images in an Everglades article (I should check on that again...). So I have to get the signed release from SFPL and send it to permissions.wikipedia.org with the images in question and make sure it's ok before loading.

The main image at the top will be deleted. I knew that when I started on the article.

I've contacted the photographer of Milk's official supervisor portrait who declined to agree to release the image to Wikipedia. I've also contacted gay photographer Rink Foto who also declined. Bummer, because he had a sweet pic of the 1978 Gay Freedom Day Parade with marchers carrying huge blow-up photos of the Klan, Hitler, and Anita Bryant. I am trading emails with Dan Nicoletta, who ran Castro Camera while Milk was campaigning. He's having an attorney look over the GFDL to determine if he should release any images to Wikipedia. I've asked for 4. I may not get any.

Last resorts: I have a photo of the building where Castro Camera used to be, I took last month. I have an image of the front page of the Examiner with the huge black CITY IN AGONY declaration over the masthead, and the headline that Dan White will be eligible for the death penalty. Elcobbola says I can use the City in Agony and masthead, or masthead with headline, but not all three, but it's arguable.

So, before we scour places for free images, let's make sure the article won't be riddled with questionable images, or ones that would be bunched up in one or two sections. (And I've not seen the bronze bust of Milk - I read that he's grinning. Would it scare small children?) --Moni3 (talk) 14:13, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I forgot to contact the San Francisco GLBT Historical Society for images. I contacted them to see if they had condensed newspaper articles for Milk, and they did not reply. I'll contact them this week for images and see if I can get any further. --Moni3 (talk) 14:56, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Two issues: I think there's no rule on image size as long as they are 300 px wide or below in the text. I would like to make them 250 px, and I formatted the 3 by Nicoletta but I think it was Benji who made them default size. I checked to make sure, and unless there was something I missed, the rule is that they should be consistent in size unless for a good reason to have them otherwise. So I'd like to go through the article and make sure all the images are 250 px.

Second issue: Image:Harvey milk.jpg, which was up for speedy deletion, will not survive FAC without an author, copyright status, and permissions from the copyright holder. I don't know who took that picture, or what it came from. The crease line 2/3 of the way down makes me think it may have come from a newspaper. If that's the case, it's going to be a small possibility that permissions will be granted. If it belongs to a library, permissions from them should not be difficult to get. It just needs to be done. It was uploaded in 2003...anyone want to take this on? If not, it's going to be chucked during FAC. --Moni3 (talk) 15:54, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Forcing size is discouraged - the "px" should not be used; "thumb" is the default. If thumbs are too large add "|upright|". I would say leave the Milk profile image on top until it has to go which will allow a bit of time to add other images in process. As a final punt, a decent head shot could be extrapolated and cleaned up from the mural image on the bottom of the page. The graphics image lab usually turns these around in 1-2 weeks - sometimes much faster. -- Banjeboi 02:08, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to do my foolhardy best to put the article in FAC with 250 px images, discourage or no. If it's not policy, I'm going to do it. Primarily because the text is huge and the images are not, and 250 px will balance that out.

I don't think it's a good idea to to put the artistic representation of Milk at the top of the article. That's the mural image you're referring to, right? Without Image:Harvey milk.jpg at the top of the article, I'll shift another one up there, probably Milk at the mayor's desk. However, that will look bad in the infobox, and I'm not married to the infobox by any means. --Moni3 (talk) 12:45, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest then another friendly round of emails to the SF public library - I think under the Scott Smith collection to see if they have a better front-facing image they might be able to release. As well, Danny Nicoleta who has not only pro photos but might have some less formal ones that they may be willing to release. I won't quibble against the px until December, after that no promises as I'm likely to forget this entire thread. -- Banjeboi 00:01, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Outdent: In terms of "fair use" - historic event (no alternative) - you could probably convert to low res a photo of the historic Dianne Feinstein press conference immediately following the murders. I doubt there is a free alternative and there's no question that it was a historic event.Mosedschurte (talk) 01:40, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I would have to ask Elcobbola (talk · contribs) about the screen shot of Feinstein, but I don't think it can be fair use because a television crew took it, she was talking to the press at the time, and her image appeared in the newspaper. There may not be a free alternative, but there were certainly many shots of her giving the announcement to the press. And the historic event wasn't Feinstein telling the press, it was Moscone and Milk getting shot. That has no photograph.

I plan to contact the SFPL, but I must have patience. Though I work for free here, I can't expect everyone else to do the same, and on my schedule. I heard from them last about a week ago. I'll drop a note to check on their progress. I don't feel comfortable at all asking Dan Nicoletta for more images. He's a professional photographer, he gets paid for his shots, and he was extraordinarily generous to allow the use of three images for free. If the SFPL comes through and the images are usable, that will give us three more images for the article. That will be fine. It will be quite well-rounded and aesthetically pleasing with that. --Moni3 (talk) 14:25, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Alice

Fact tag on who formed Alice. This is what my sources say. Let me see yours, Queerudite, and let's figure out how to write this. Shilts: "Embattled liberal Democrats around town were organizing into Democratic clubs, however, so Jim Foster organized his SIR political committee into the Alice B. Toklas Memorial Democratic Club." (p. 63)

Clendinen: "The strategy was to move the gay constituency to the center of Democratic Party politics, making it a power in the party and in public office. To that end, Jim Foster had, in December 1971, created a new gay Democratic political club, the country's first, and named it for Gertrude Stein's lover, Alice B. Toklas. Its membership and momentum were drawn directly from SIR and the operation of its political committee." (p. 161)

No history on their website at here, unfortunately.

Jim Foster papers at Cornell

I have Lesbian/Woman by Martin and Lyon. Has no index, argh, but it was written in 1972, while Alice was being formed. I'll look through it to find what I can.

I'm going to remove the fact tag, because the citation is good, though disputed. Let's figure out what our sources say and try to reflect that in the language in the sentence. --Moni3 (talk) 13:04, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Hmmmmm... Many of the articles about Del Martin's death credit her and Lyon with the founding of Alice:

• San Francisco Chronicle
• San Francisco Sentinel
• CNN
• The Guardian
• The Independent
• LA Times
• Windy City Times
• The Washington Blade

A few such as the New York Times just say she was an active member.

I also found several sources that credit Jim Foster with the founding:

• Gay by the Bay (Stryker and Buskirk), pp 64.
• And The Band Played On (Shilts), pp 278.
• Conduct Unbecoming (Shilts), pp 168 - which says Alice used to be the "Society for Individual Rights" and Foster transformed it into Alice.
• The GLBTQ Encyclopedia

Oh wait... Forging Gay Identities (Armstrong), pp 125-126. She says:

"Politicians appealed to SIR and to the Alice B. Toklas Democratic Club, formed by Jim Foster in December 1971."

And she actually cites sources!:

• "Christopher Street West SF Gay Parade," Advocate, July 19, 1972, 3
• Susan Stryker and Jim Van Buskirk, Gay by the Bay: A History of Queer Culture in the San Francisco Bay Area (San Francisco: Chronicle, 1996)
• Greg L. Pennington, "A Parade Almanac", San Francisco Lesbian/Gay Freedom Parade and Celebration Magazine. June 25, 1989, 15.

I am inclined to believe your sources, especially the Cornell Library documents and the 1972 Advocate article that Armstrong cites. It appears all the articles crediting Lyon and Martin were written just this year. I will see if I can dig up a copy of the Advocate article to double-check. Queerudite (talk) 17:31, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm interested to know what you come up with. It appears that SIR had a group of a few members who worked on political issues, and that branched out to be Alice. I get the impression that Martin and Lyon, as founding members of the DOB were probably consulted to help with Alice and may have participated in some of the formation meetings. But they were not as involved in the running in the local DOB. The national group was in the process of disbanding in 1970. Martin and Lyon appear to have been involved in NOW in the early 70s, and Martin actually wrote a very strong letter in The Advocate in 1970 telling gay men to piss off, that she had had it with their chauvinism, and I can't remember where this was written, but in one of her missives about the poor treatment lesbians were receiving the gay rights movement, she said "We're not going to be your 'niggers' any longer". So... I wonder if she had the ability in 1972 to reach out to gay men to form the first gay political organization. --Moni3 (talk) 17:45, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Milk day...

Apparently the California legislator has passed a bill to declare Harvey's birthday a state holiday. You can read the bill on leginfo.ca.gov. This is likely something that should be added at some point. If no one else wants to take the lead on this I'll write up a paragraph when I have more time. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 16:03, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

It's in the Tributes section. But thank you for the suggestion. --Moni3 (talk) 16:08, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see. I missed it. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 16:15, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Suggested Add

It's me, but don't worry. No changes, just a suggestion. And it's not Peoples Temple related. Right now, there is just a brief mention in part of a sentence about the citywide-to-district election changes. Prop T was a transformative measure for San Francisco politics, allowing local communities to gain power, and may have been a large reason that both candidates like Milk and his eventual assassin White were able to gain seats on the Board.

Right now, the current sentence is this:

---

In November of 1976, voters in San Francisco decided to re-organize supervisor elections to choose supervisors from neighborhoods instead of voting for them in city-wide ballots. Harvey Milk quickly qualified as the primary candidate in District 5, surrounding Castro Street.(ref)Shilts, p. 166.(ref)

---

Think about going with something more like this:

---

In 1976, Harvey Milk supported a ballot initiative to elect individual supervisors representing local districts instead of by citywide elections called Proposition T. Neighborhood and labor groups dissatisfied with the operations of the current Board of Supervisors backed the initiative. Although Proposition T opponents outspent supporters two-to-one and both major San Francisco papers opposed the measure, the initiative passed in November of 1976. Proposition T's passage brought about significant changes, with five of the incumbent eleven Supervisors choosing not to run in the November 1977 election. Victorious newcomers more closely paralleled the demographic and political characteristics of their districts. They included both Milk from District 5 and Dan White from District 8.

---

Here it is with parenthetical symbols replacing tag demarcators:

---

In 1976, Harvey Milk supported a ballot initiative to elect individual supervisors representing local districts instead of by citywide elections called Proposition T.(ref)Shilts, p. 76.(/ref) Neighborhood and labor groups dissatisfied with the operations of the current Board of Supervisors backed the initiative.(ref name="hartman228")(Hartman, Chester W. and Sarah Carnochan, City for Sale: The Transformation of San Francisco, University of California Press, ISBN 0520086058, p.228-9(/ref) Although Proposition T opponents outspent supporters two-to-one and both major San Francisco papers opposed the measure, the initiative passed in November of 1976. (ref name="hartman228"/)(ref)Shilts, p. 166.(/ref) Proposition T's passage brought about significant changes, with five of the incumbent eleven Supervisors choosing not to run in the November 1977 election.(ref name="hartman233")(Hartman, Chester W. and Sarah Carnochan, City for Sale: The Transformation of San Francisco, University of California Press, ISBN 0520086058, p.233(/ref) Victorious newcomers more closely paralleled the demographic and political characteristics of their districts.(ref name="hartman233"/) They included both Milk from District 5 and Dan White from District 8.(ref name="hartman233"/)

---

Mosedschurte (talk) 02:29, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I have access to this book, and I will check it out and read it. From scrolling through the 1976 San Francisco Examiner election special in November 1976, it is my impression that the primary issue regarding incumbents running in neighborhood elections was that they had to move to a different district. White had to give his address from his mother's house to qualify to run in District 8. My concern is the amount of weight to give it in comparison to the other issues that Milk supported. The expanded paragraph there seems more appropriate to the San Francisco Board of Supervisors article. --Moni3 (talk) 02:45, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I see your point. You might want to just drop a sentence that five incumbents dropped out after Prop T, the newcomers more closely paralleled the demographics and political leanings of their district, and they included both Milk and White. It is sort of some importance to Milk's story since, without Prop T, Milk and/or White might not have even made it into office. Just a suggestion and, to be clear, I don't plan on any edits of this article. Mosedschurte (talk) 04:41, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

First elected gay man

"...the first openly gay man to be elected to public office in the United States, as a member of the San Francisco Board of Supervisors..." is, technically speaking, not true. Allan Spear was elected to the Minnesota Senate in 1972, came out in 1974 and was re-elected in 1976, a year before Milk was elected. I in no way mean to detract from Milk but the statement needs to be clarified. Otto4711 (talk) 22:17, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I would say clarify in the footnote or wherever the article addresses the other out politicians. Jose Sarria might be worth mentioning in some way as well. -- Banjeboi 02:12, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

How about footnoting the lead and changing footnote 5 to read something like "Technically, Minnesota State Senator Allan Spear, who was elected in 1972, came out in 1974 and was re-elected in 1976 was the first openly gay man to be elected to public office in the United States. Milk was the first non-incumbent openly gay man to be elected." Not to slight Elaine Noble but I'm not sure there's a need to mention her in this context. I realize this is a bit awkward, but being from Wisconsin, where we have the first openly LGBT person elected to Congress as a non-incumbent, we're a bit sensitive to such things.  ;-) Otto4711 (talk) 04:21, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Technically though Milk was the first openly gay man elected, I suppose semantically there might be a better word choice but unsure what it would be. Spear got the job first, then came out, and won re-election. That's quite different than one who enters the process as a gay man. -- Banjeboi 10:58, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Tributes

I added a reference to the SF Public Library branch that was renamed in his honor but I couldn't find the year that it was renamed. The library is located ay 1 José Sarria Court, a section of 16th St. that was renamed for another SF pioneer. I don't know if there's a good way to work that in but given the groundwork for Harvey's election that was laid by Sarria I would like to see some mention of Sarria somewhere in the article. Otto4711 (talk) 04:34, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

1981, found here. Here's a tie-to Jose Sarria to help explain that connection. -- Banjeboi 00:14, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

This review is transcluded from Talk:Harvey Milk/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Protonk comments

Images

• I don't know about the OTRS bit, so I'll just assume that anything with an OTRS ticket on the image description page is ok.
• Image:Harvey milk.jpg. I'll bite. Why is this not replaceable with another image of Milk, aside from the fact that it is a relative closeup and near the right ratio for an infobox? This is partially devil's advocate but also partially because if this goes on the main page that image won't be displayed there.
• Does Image:Mural of Harvey Milk in former Castro Camera.JPG have any WP:ACCESS issues as displayed? Can it be displayed without cropping as a right or left aligned image with text floating around it?

• As an update, I went through safari and changed my User agent to various other browsers. Haven't seen a problem yet. No problems opening in Opera or Camino. Doesn't seem to be an issue. Protonk (talk) 18:03, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

• He doesn't look like Sean Penn. Ok, maybe a little. :)

• Check out the film trailer. The resemblance is uncanny and freakish.

• Yeah, I think I was going off the film posters and the images in this article. The front cover of Strange de Jim's book and that trailer = scary resemblance. Protonk (talk) 19:20, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

• The top image will have to be replaced before nomination at FAC. --Moni3 (talk) 18:55, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Sources

• A note here, I do not have any of these sources in hand. I'll ask question where a citation seems odd but I won't have a chance to doublecheck or find better quotes as I usually do.
• A further note, where I denote footnotes by number I mean the number in the Citations or Notes sections of this revision.
• fn 121 (the AoJ Memo) literally verifies the part of the text but does so in an offhand manner and does not verify another part. The memo discusses the White case as a segue to diminished capacity in NC and in the paragraph (presumably) cited mentions the binging claim but not the "health food concious" claim. Since their source for this is Rolling Stone (or Newsweek) it would probably be better to cite those if they are available. Re-reading the text it may also be possible that you swapped fn 120 and 121 inadvertently.
• fn133. The california penal code is surprisingly readable, but I suspect that a secondary source might exist that discussed this change (much like fn 121 discussed the changes to "diminished capacity" in North Carolina).
• Note 1: I don't think Karen Foss is a historian, per se. She is a professor of communication and rhetorical theory. That doesn't make her wrong about anything, just that we shouldn't call her a historian.
• Foss (1994) is a good read (as crit. lit. anthologies go). I would like to see more of it in the section that cites fn 138. We use specific phrasing like "insider/outsider" "laughter, reversal, transcendence" but we don't get to the part where the verve comes from. In her view, Milk won because he was loony or he passed at being loony. My suggestion is to reread Foss (1994) and see if you can take the starch out of that section. :)
• fn 53 Add 0037-7791 as the ISSN.
• fn 1. Why is the Encyclopedia of Homosexuality featured so prominently? This isn't adversarial, it isn't bluelinked or redlinked so I'm guessing it isn't notable, Why put it in the lede?
• fn 136 ISSN is 0022-5169.

• I don't quite understand your second point.

• I place the second point on my GA reviews because I work through the article linearly and also work through my GA rubric linearly. Images=>Sources=>POV (if it is an issue)=>MOS=>Small issues. I used to include the anchor links to the footnotes but during a recent GA nomination I discovered that (shock!) people handle Ga issues in different orders than I do). So by the time they got to the source section, none of the footnotes pointed to the correct article. So now I just note this and note which revision I'm getting the numbers from for clarity. Protonk (talk) 19:16, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

• You're right about the North Carolina reference. I'll find a better one. The same for a secondary resource about diminished capacity in California.
• The Encyclopedia of Homosexuality is featured in the lead because it gives an overview of Milk's impact. I have problems with the quote, and I think I'll change it. --Moni3 (talk) 19:13, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

MOS/Layout

• Ok. I'll get this out now. I have some WP:SIZE concerns with this article. Editable text is 85kb right now, although the total loaded size is only 305 kb (much less than most web pages). I realize that the size guidance is a little outmoded--even in the states DSL penetration is pretty high. However, I think this article can be trimmed by spinning portions out. I am not going to suggest that elements be spun out purely for size as I think it is much more helpful to spin out topical elements (i.e. rather than "early/mid/late life", spin out things where Milk was only an element of a larger scheme). A suggestion: Broader historical forces should be spun out or spun in to another existing article. That article should be summarized with ~1/3 of the current amount of prose. I understand the urge to be comprehensive and, frankly (given the limited refs) no other section can be spun out without negatively impacting the quality of the bio.
• Per Wikipedia:Self-references to avoid, the link to the LGBT portal should be moved to the talk page. I see that the USMC project does this on Oliver Sipple. Am I reading SELFREF right?
• In my opinion (and this is just a suggestion/opinion), the see also section should be absorbed into the text and eliminated. For the List of American Assasinated politicians, a link to there exists in the category Category:Assassinated American politicians. I'm not sure where Violence against LGBT people can go.
• The lead needs to be expanded slightly to accommodate a summary of the broader issues discussed in Move to San Francisco and Broader historical forces

• By a prose size peek, it's at 56k. However, more than one person has commented on its size. I think it does reflect the references on Milk's life, but I will start to seriously consider what to cut or consolidate.
• I so rarely pay attention to see also and external links...I suppose I should start at some point. --Moni3 (talk) 19:36, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Small Issues

• "He was stationed in San Diego and earned the rank of lieutenant, junior grade as a deep sea diver on an aircraft carrier." Do we know which aircraft carrier? Which base? Also, I would prefer the rank to be only included in the discharge as "He was discharged from the Navy at the rank of lieutenant, junior grade in 1955." because O-2 is an automatic promotion (As is O-3, Lieutenant). Strictly speaking, it is earned, but that is my suggestion.
• "Milk abruptly moved from his job as an insurance salesman to become a researcher at a Wall Street company..." Do we know which company?
• "White did not forget it. He opposed every initiative and issue Milk proposed and supported." How about "White did not forget the snub."?
• "Some of them were encapsulated and buried beneath the sidewalk in front of where Castro Camera was located" "...the sidewalk in front of Castro Camera."?
• "White's defense attorney, Doug Schmidt, argued that he was not responsible for his actions, using the legal defense known as diminished capacity" is the definite or indefinite article appropriate here? I would prefer "a legal defense", but my copy of Strunk and White sits unopened.

Overall

This is a lovely article. I will pass it to GA with the full knowledge that the small issues here will be worked on. I'm not the right person to do a close reading for grammar, spelling, wording, but I've done the best I can. As you can see I haven't found much. I can say generally that the Campaigns and Supervisor sections can be tightened up but I can't provide specific guidance. I also feel that spinning out the broader issues will help with the flow of the article. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to review this. Protonk (talk) 05:06, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Protonk. This was quite a thorough review of the article,a nd I don't consider these issues minor. I hope its eventual rating will be FA, and these things will come up there. It's good to fix them now or prepare a good explanation of why they are there. I need to go over these one by one, and I'll comment or ask clarification where needed. --Moni3 (talk) 13:51, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Sic

I removed the "[sic]" after Altoona, Pennsylvanias in Harvey Milk's Hope Speech. I think it is inappropriate because I don't think "Pennsylvanias" or "Minnesotas" are understood to be grammatical errors or contemporaneous expressions, rather Milk is using a rhetorical device to illustrate that gay people are everywhere, from mid-sized cities like Altoona to small towns like Richmond. The plural-ness demonstrates Altoona and Richmond are placeholders for any American town or city. Queerudite (talk) 16:17, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you. --Moni3 (talk) 16:37, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Oke-doke. :) Protonk (talk) 16:47, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Nitpick lead paragraph

Milk was born and raised in New York, where he acknowledged his homosexuality early, but chose to pursue a financial career that required secrecy and discretion.

I think this sentence from the lead paragraph is oddly worded. It sounds like it is saying:

A) Financial jobs require secrecy and discretion.

B) Milk acknowledging his homosexuality made it hard to be secretive or discrete.

When I think it intends to say:

C) Gay people were often fired from financial jobs because of their sexual orientation.

D) Milk would have to be secretive and discrete to avoid disclosing his sexual orientation at work.

How about something more like: "Milk was born and raised in New York, where he acknowledged his homosexuality early, but chose to pursue a financial career that required him to conceal his sexual orientation." Queerudite (talk) 17:31, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

• That's better. I was going to say something about it in the review but I forgot....ARGH! Protonk (talk) 17:35, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I get your point. For accuracy, I think we can ditch the career in totality, because Milk chose to be closeted regardless of his career opportunities. It wasn't just his job where he did not admit to being gay. It was just about with everyone else except for the men he slept with. --Moni3 (talk) 17:37, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

In that case, why not drop the sentence entirely? Or maybe that's exactly what you're suggesting, Moni? I mean, it is the lead paragraph and Milk was not famous for being an insurance salesman or for being closeted. So maybe the second sentence should be: "Born and raised in New York, Milk held an assortment of jobs and moved frequently, as he was constantly restless and had no tolerance for boredom." Queerudite (talk) 23:41, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I think from a biographical standpoint it is important to keep the closeted bit in. But we can massage the wording a bit. Protonk (talk) 23:43, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Sources about Milk's life point out his conservative and closeted beginning, remarking that his change at the end of his life, encouraging people to come out when he had not was a big deal. I think it's the career thing we can get rid of. He didn't come out when he was younger because he wanted a career. It was because he was scared. --Moni3 (talk) 23:54, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Well put. The new edit is clearer and stronger. Queerudite (talk) 00:14, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I ec'd with you on the IP edit's talk page

Stuart Milk is apparently Harvey's nephew, I'll see if he's had anything published and if I can get a hold of it. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 02:45, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, let me know when you get to a nice stopping point and I'll do a more thorough copyedit. We don't seem to be getting any more takers at the peer review; do I smell bad? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 02:46, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

My biggest concerns are with the images now, perhaps cutting down the Broader historical forces section as I've drafted here. Copy edit away! --Moni3 (talk) 02:51, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Stuart Milk made some pictures available here: http://thecastro.net/milk/family/milkfamily.html. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 02:54, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Got some loose ends all over the place, I'll give you a shout when I start, it will be in the next 24 hours. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 02:56, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Hm, strike what I said about trying to get John involved here, this article is looking really polished Moni. I'll try to get him in trouble somewhere else. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 03:01, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

I'll do some searching to see if I can verify the story about Milk's grandfather with better sources. --Moni3 (talk) 03:02, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Copyediting 2

John has volunteered for the copyedit; I'll go through after he's done. Should be sometime today. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 12:38, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

• "were encouraging gays to work with liberal politicians": how do you feel about "were asking gays not to alienate liberal politicians"? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive)

• I think it's more accurate to say they encouraged gays to work (or rather justified what they were doing) with liberal politicians. Not until Milk came around did they start asking gays - and really Milk only - not to alienate anyone. --Moni3 (talk) 19:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

• "a frequent campaign tactic, Milk's case": should be "in Milk's case", either with or without brackets around [in]. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive)
• I think some reviewers may feel that the soap opera goes on just a little too long, given that the focus of the article should be on what made Milk notable: "To make a point to McKinley, Milk took him to the hospital to show him an unsuccessful suicide: Milk's ex-lover Joe Campbell made an attempt when the man he was in love with, Billy Sipple, left him. Milk had remained friendly with Campbell, who had entered the avant garde art scene in Greenwich Village. Milk disapproved of Campbell's relationship with Sipple and did not understand his despondency." - Dan Dank55 (send/receive)
  • Aha! I didn't realize it was Sipple who probably saved President Ford's life in San Francisco. Okay, that makes this tough. I don't think there's any perfect way to present the information; what you've done here is as good as any, and nicely understated. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 14:57, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
• "Alioto's supporters—were forced out": it doesn't really say what they were forced out by, other than "young families" ... and if they were displaced by young families, that wouldn't explain why prices were depressed and space was opening up in the Castro. Were they forced out by job loss? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 04:15, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

• Yes, loss of jobs at the docks, blue collar industry jobs replaced by white collar service industry jobs. --Moni3 (talk) 19:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

• "When Alioto tried to win Catholic influence with a Cardinal for San Francisco": I don't quite follow what this means. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 04:21, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

• Alioto cracked down on homosexuality to show the Archdiocese that SF was, I guess, a virtuous enough city to warrant a Cardinal. Excellent plan, eh? --Moni3 (talk) 19:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

• "became involved with O'Horgan's theater company": would it be possible to say:

became a "general aide" with O'Horgan's theater company

• and attribute it, and get rid of all or most of the following sentence? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive)

• Yeh, I guess. --Moni3 (talk) 19:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

• "publisher of The Advocate David Goodstein": we can leave it, but some at FAC may want "Advocate publisher David Goodstein". - Dan Dank55 (send/receive)

• I'm ok either way. --Moni3 (talk) 19:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

• "granting equal rights to gays and lesbians": even though we are, of course, talking about equal rights, I think there's a good case for deleting "equal": it has a POV ring to it, and it's redundant; that's what rights are for. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive)
• "Milk decided to do something; he would run for city supervisor": I think I'd prefer "Milk decided to run for city supervisor." We can never really know why someone runs for office; they always say its to help the little guy, or restore faith in government, or whatever. If your sources feel strongly that they have a good handle on why he ran for office, we could go into detail. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 04:44, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

• Ok. I'm good with that, too. --Moni3 (talk) 19:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

• "He also put socially liberal points in his platform, including sexual freedom and the legalization of marijuana." I think I'd prefer "He ran on a socially liberal platform, opposing government interference in private sexual matters and favoring the legalization of marijuana." - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 14:31, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

• That's better. --Moni3 (talk) 19:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

• Just a program note: when something I'd like to see seems uncontroversial, or when it's controversial but I'm pretty sure I'm right, I go ahead and make the edit. I'm putting notes here if I'm less certain on what the final outcome should be.
• "on the day of the fair than in previous decades": if they made more in that one day than in the last twenty years combined, I'd change this to "than over the course of the last X decades (or years)". Otherwise, "than on any previous day".

• From Shilts, p. 90: Over five thousand came to the first fair in August 1974. The street hadn't seen a crowd like that since the festival celebrating California's centennial fifteen years earlier. An Italian liquor store owner who had decried the gay onslaught to Castro Camera the next day to tell MIlk breathlessly he had sold three times the booze on that one Sunday than on any other single day in his decades of business. It was as if he just figured out that homosexuals liked ice-cold cans of Bud like anybody else. He signed up as a CVA member. I'll have to search at sfgate.com or purchase Gay by the Bay to get more information than this. Not that I mind buying the book, but if you think it's going to be a big deal, I won't be able to get the book for a week or so. --Moni3 (talk) 20:45, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Okay, "than on any previous day" sounds good to me; good for you? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 20:59, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

• "to resemble the type of men Milk found attractive": I'd prefer either "to resemble men that Milk found attractive" (if they looked like people he knew) or "to be the type of men Milk found attractive" (if they were his "type").

• Ok. --Moni3 (talk) 23:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

• "Milk favored support for small businesses and the growth of neighborhoods over the growing city-wide trend to support large businesses and develop the downtown area. This clash of interests between downtown development prioritized by Alioto and the support of local neighborhoods resulted in a political overhaul.": I don't quite follow.

• From the 1960s Alioto was trying to lure large corporations to SF, and doing a good job. So good that they replaced the established economy and population of the city, moving all the blue collar workers out. Alioto and his conservative colleagues were replaced by Moscone and other liberal politicians. --Moni3 (talk) 23:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

• My phrase: "When the police response was considered inadequate": I don't mean by this that I'm not willing to sock it to the police (to adopt the lingo of the time :) for bad behavior, but if there was definite bad behavior, I'd want to know exactly what the sources are saying that proves that. Police can't usually put an end to random attacks of any kind in any city. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 17:47, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

• Random attacks on gays rose, but police would have little to do with the Castro District. Response times to calls from the Castro were slow. The "Pink Panther" groups would corral an attacker until the police eventually responded. Milk himself caught a guy and held him until the police got there. --Moni3 (talk) 23:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't be fussed to leave the phrase I put in, but I'd also be fine with being more specific about the slow response times and the "Pink Panther" groups, but I'd want to see some text that sounded like someone was really keeping track of response times and numbers and severity of incidents, and comparing those numbers with the city-wide police response. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 20:08, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

• "dictated to him what he would have to do to get gay votes": don't know what this means. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 19:55, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

• Basically told Moscone to freeze out Alice and Jim Foster, which he did. From that point on, Moscone dealt with Milk when there was a city issue dealing with gays.

• How are we going to prove that "Milk voted his conscience"? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 19:58, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
• I'd prefer to know either a little more or a little less: "Although the proposed law was simple in legislating that gay teachers not be allowed in public classrooms, it also was written generally enough to state that any employee of a public school district who supported gay rights—regardless of their own sexual orientation—could also be fired." - Dan Dank55 (send/receive)

• The way the law was written - threatening to fire teachers, regardless of sexual orientation, for what they believed - was what got the attention of Reagan, Carter, and others. --Moni3 (talk) 23:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

• "quick statements that they shot back and forth at each other": "repartee" gets 96K ghits; is that enough to substitute "quick repartee", or am I being twee? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 20:20, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Nevermind, that is twee. How about "quick back-and-forth banter"? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 13:25, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

• Ok. --Moni3 (talk) 23:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

• I know this is a more thorough copyedit than last time, but I know Scartol's lurking in the bushes, and this time I wanna be ready for him. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 20:25, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

• I haven't told Scartol about this article. It's you and me, and whoever trips over it. --Moni3 (talk) 23:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah, that's a relief. His copyediting puts me to shame. Still, we're guaranteed to have one or more fussy reviewers at FAC, God love 'em, and I want to be ready. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 14:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

• There should be a ton of sources out there that consider Dan White's actions "murder"; it would be best to support your use of the term by citing a couple of them. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 21:48, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
• The "Dan White, killer" ref needs a page number. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 21:53, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
• "Despite the antics that led some to dismiss him as a panderer for publicity": I reworded, but with or without the rewording, we probably need to add attribution. I don't want to lose this key sentence, though. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 23:29, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Nevermind, I fixed it with "Despite his antics and publicity stunts..." There's no question that there were antics and publicity stunts, Harvey was the first to admit that. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 13:18, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
• Okay I'm done. I checked the Notes, but not the other endsections. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 22:34, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
• Excellent article. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 23:31, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
• Btw, on your overall questions: I don't think the article is too long or winding, and yes, I think you can say that the police acted very very badly, but only if you want to. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 13:14, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok. I will go over these points through the next day or so. Thanks, Dan! --Moni3 (talk) 13:16, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

• "That laborious adjustment plods on—now forward, now backward—though with every gay character to emerge on TV and with every presidential speech to a gay group, its eventual outcome favoring equality seems clear." Is this the right article for that? If we state that in the lead, we should prove it in the article. Even in 2008, over the short term, the outcome isn't clear to me, although I have a hard time seeing how the long-term outcome can't be favorable. But I think a lot of readers would think that this is just my opinion. The first part of the quote is fine. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 14:46, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

• I want to know why so many statements about the impact of Milk's life are so bad for a lead quote. I think all these people speaking and writing about Milk know what I'm trying to do and are deliberately making it difficult. It's quite clear that they all hate me. You too. Injustice! Thy sting is sharp! Argh. --Moni3 (talk) 14:58, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

You could prove that statement or something like it, and you're just the person to do it, but that's a whole nuther FA. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 15:37, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

• Okay, thanks for fixing the Briggs edit. I'm done. Again. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 20:40, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Last review before FAC

Anyone who's watching the article can feel free to give input to this.

• I don't see any way that the current image at the top of the page will be allowed. The options are shifting Image:Harvey Milk in 1978 at Mayor Moscone's Desk.jpg to the top of the article with or without the infobox and replacing that image in the Supervisor section with a quote box, having no image at the top of the article, or going through the process of trying to find a fair use image from the documentary or somewhere else. With recent difficulty justifying an image in Stonewall riots, the fewer fair use images in this one, I think the better. Thoughts?
  • We're talking about the image that's just a profile, right? I can contact Stuart Milk and try to get permission for a family photo, if you want one. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive)
    • It might be Stuart trying to add that bit in about Milk's grandfather. If so, see if he has knowledge of a reliable source that will confirm his great-grandfather's establishing two synagogues. I would love an early childhood photo of Milk as well as a general one of him later in life. Are you familiar with getting permissions for photos? If not, ask him all nice and stuff for images. If he is agreeable, respond by asking him to place his name below the following statement: I own the copyright to the images found attached in this email. I grant permission to copy, distribute and/or modify these documents under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. Sometimes I've gotten a few images from organizations or people who were so excited to get something on Wikipedia, they just sent me images saying YES! and I forwarded that release to permissions@wikipedia.org with the image attached. Either way, the release and the photo has to be mailed to Wikipedia. You can load the image then (no more than 500 pixels, probably) and license it as GFDL. If you want help with this, I can assist. Let me know. --Moni3 (talk) 12:22, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
      • On it. Stuart is openly gay and very proud of his uncle, and he has a lot of family photos. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 12:38, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
        • Sorry - I should have said this before, and sorry if you already know this. Makes sure if Stuart can give you images, that these are family photos and not images taken by other photographers. Stuart can only give us permission to use images that are in the family photo album, taken by family members. --Moni3 (talk) 13:03, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
          • I'll let you know as soon as he responds, if I have the right email address (SacredRain at aol dot com). - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 02:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

• The lead may benefit from a strong statement in the third paragraph that says Milk's election and assassination were the culmination of changing forces in the city, and tensions between political groups. The statements at the end of the current 3rd paragraph could be split into a small 4th paragraph. I'm still considering replacing the quote from the Encyclopedia of Homosexuality. Thoughts?
  • I don't believe there's enough support in the article for this claim, at least not in a Wikipedia article. I'm not a fan of the Encyc. of Homosexuality quote. "Avoid statements that will become dated"; and saying that he did a better job than anyone has done "since" is probably already dated. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive)
    • Are you saying you don't think there's enough evidence in the article to claim that Milk's election and assassination were the culmination of changing forces in the city? If so, I gotta disagree. I think that's actually pretty strong in the article. Castro changing, liberal politics in the city, police force unhappy about it, Dan White as an ex-policeman... I'll change the quote at the end. Won't be hard. --Moni3 (talk) 12:22, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
      • Can you put that another way? Are you saying that Milk's election and assassination had a greater political impact than anything else in San Francisco in the 70's and 80's? We could work in that direction, but Wikipedia is allergic to "the greatest". Some rephrasing may be needed. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 12:54, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
        • Not necessarily. I think it's worth pointing out that Milk was elected due to several forces changing in the city, and his assassination was a result of the conflict of those forces. Is that clear at all? --Moni3 (talk) 13:03, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
          • Not to me, but go on ahead, I'll catch up. I'm all in favor of statistical arguments correlating an increase in violent crime against a group, such as gays, with general political and social trends, but we're talking about one data point here. You can't correlate one data point with anything. Milk died for the same reason Moscone died: a criminal shot him. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 13:09, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
            • I do love a complex story, and Milk's assassination would qualify. True that White was petulant and had significant mental issues, and I should clarify in any edit I make to the lead that White alone shot Moscone and Milk. The response of the police, the trial, and the riots, more accurately, were a result of the conflict of those forces. --Moni3 (talk) 13:28, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
• There may be good cause to drop some of Anita Bryant's insanity to footnotes. Input?
  • I think so. This article is a little long, and I see another article springing from the leftovers of this one. Logically, the next article would be about the stuff that isn't specifically about Milk. So yes, push some of that into the footnotes, please. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 03:31, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
    • Got it. Will do. --Moni3 (talk) 12:22, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
• Are there any other sections that need to be altered, decreased in volume? --Moni3 (talk) 22:27, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
  • I printed this out, John says he'll have a reply in the morning. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 22:37, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
    • From the top down to the beginning of Campaigns, I don't see anything where the volume needs to be lowered. Conceivably, people might want to chop a sentence here or there if they feel you're taking too long to get to the good stuff, but I'm happy with it the way it is. John will start copyediting at Campaigns before I get up, he says ... let's see! - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 04:48, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

• Have the "small issues" I noted in the GA review been dealt with or addressed? I wasn't checking every change in the article (just some). Protonk (talk) 02:25, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

• I addressed all of them except for "White did not forget the snub" - I'm still thinking about it, and the "legal defense" term, because I believe the editor who changed my wording has legal experience. --Moni3 (talk) 02:40, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

• Ok thanks. I was just thinking about going back to A: actually re-read the article and B: noting that my objections certainly weren't holding this train from FA. :) Protonk (talk) 02:43, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Is there anything at Hinckle, p. 48, that reports that White said that his uniform opposition to everything Milk did was because of Milk's switch on that vote? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 03:35, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

You looking for a quote from White that said he was deliberately voting against Milk for the "betrayal"? I don't think White was that transparent. He took Milk's vote against the mental health facility personally, stopped speaking to him and would only talk to Milk's aide Dick Pabich. Within months of being sworn in, White was on a downward spiral, learning about city politics firsthand and not really enjoying the lessons. I'll see what Hinckle says on that page, though. Just FYI, most material about White's state of mind is given from his aides and acquaintances. --Moni3 (talk) 12:42, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I'd be more comfortable saying that White's aide said that he never forgave Milk for the vote. We've got a guy who was homophobic, didn't like "loud" people, was in deteriorating mental health, was a politician, and didn't say one way or the other what his motivations were. I think in this situation, Wikipedia can't claim to know that the sole reason for his actions was Milk's vote, we can only quote people close to him on what his motivation was. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 12:57, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

According to White's campaign manager Ray Sloan (they gay guy), White never spoke to Milk from the mental health facility vote until the day he shot Milk. By March White stopped coming in to work every day and called in to check on things. Goldie Judge, White's first campaign manager reported that there were several attempts to recall White in his district. There's a link in White's own article that says he was going to shoot Carol Ruth Silver and several other people, but things didn't work out for him that day... Ray Sloan told Mike Weiss he thought Dan White was a little bit in love with Harvey. Note I neglected to put that in the article, among some other crackpot theories. Although...who am I to label something crackpot? For all I know he was in love with Harvey. Ultimately, we can't say that Milk's vote or White's crazy crap was any reason this happened. I've never seen an issue like this so muddy. I doubt White himself understood what the hell was going on. His wife must have need years of therapy. At any rate, I think the article is as ambiguous as White's state of mind. It doesn't blame Milk's vote or his sexuality or anything in particular. --Moni3 (talk) 00:22, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

It's looking good to me. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 14:08, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Image check

• Image:Harvey milk.jpg - Milk appears in four (if I counted correctly) other images; the purpose of "Illustrate the person" is fulfilled by the other images (NFCC#3A), which makes this redundant. (NFCC#1 problems, too, as this and this are free).
• Image:Harvey Milk in Texas 1957.jpg - try to elaborate on what, specifically, about his appearance is conservative (I suppose I don't see rolled up pants and short sleeves as conservative, but that's coming from a someone who even wears a tie and coat on weekends). I have NFCC#8 concerns, too, which may or may not be remediable with a stronger rationale. In Stonewall, the contrast in appearances was important because it reflected values underlying the cause of the riots. The importance of contrasting appearance is not readily apparent here. The rationale indicates the image is illustrating a conservative appearance, but does not go the next step to say why it is important to do so. With the reinstated NFCC#8 phrasing of "omission would be detrimental to that understanding", what understanding of Milk would a reader lose if this image were removed?
• Image:Milk at Castro Camera 1973.jpg - similar questions as the above image, although the stronger caption helps. In that vein, however, why wouldn't prose akin to "Milk grew his hair long, began wearing jeans, etc." be sufficient to understand a change to a liberal appearance? What understanding does the image convey that words alone cannot reasonably substitute?
• Image:Gay Freedom Day 1976 by Harvey Milk.jpg - the substantive purpose seems to be to illustrate "how freely gay men in the neighborhood in 1976 felt to dress and behave"; would a free image of this be available? If there's no free image, does physically seeing Milk's constituency really assist our understanding of Milk? That Milk took it doesn't seem to really be germane to our understanding of Milk.
• Image:Bronze plate of Harvey Milk ashes on Castro Street.JPG - I think the text is substantial enough to be eligible for copyright protection; NFCC#1 would probably require this to be included in quotation form (i.e. a quote box), not an image.
• Image:Mural of Harvey Milk in former Castro Camera.JPG - this, as you know, is a derivative. Would it be possible to get permission in writing (i.e. email) and forward to OTRS? As it is, we don't have a means of verifying that John Baden (the artist) has approved the GFDL license, which puts the image at odds with WP:IUP.

Apologies for my delay. Remember, also, that I'm merely playing devil's advocate here to assist preparation for the rigors of FAC. Эlcobbola _talk 14:39, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Elcobbola, for the review. I think we're going to ditch Image:Harvey milk.jpg.

FYI, I sent permissions for Image:Mural of Harvey Milk in former Castro Camera.JPG on September 29. Are you able to check on that?

While aesthetically and just...because...I love Image:Gay Freedom Day 1976 by Harvey Milk.jpg, I may have to give it up for deletion unless Dank55 has ideas.

I never have ideas about images, I just follow directions. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 20:17, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

What's the difference between copying the text verbatim from Image:Bronze plate of Harvey Milk ashes on Castro Street.JPG and using the image? I'd think copying the text, if the words are copyrighted, would be a bigger problem.

I'll try to work on justifying or fixing these other problems. --Moni3 (talk) 19:22, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

The mural is ticketed!

In the "real world" there isn't a difference; in Wikipedia, it's a quirk in policy. In the "real world", literary and visual works are protected by the same copyright law, Title 17. The fair use provision therein, therefore, applies to both prose and images. Every quote from a copyrighted work you see on Wikipedia, the media, etc. is actually "real world" fair use in action. The quirk here is that, for images (which, unlike prose, fall under the definition of "non-free content"), Wikipedia uses rules deliberately stricter than "real world" fair use (the NFCC). Эlcobbola _talk 19:55, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Another issue is that I now have to cite the statement on the plaque covering Milk's ashes. It has to be a third party source. This does seem like a nutty hoop to jump through, because I have the image here, but I can't use the image either in the article or as a source for the verbatim quote from the plaque, because my own photo of that would be OR? Eesh. Any tips? --Moni3 (talk) 20:04, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I suspect that citing the quote to, say, "Harvey Milk Memorial Plaque, Castro Camera, Castro, San Francisco, California" (I assume you would have better, more specific wording) would be sufficient. The point of WP:V is giving the reader sufficient information that they could independently verify the information; giving the source and physical location, in this instance, seems perfectly acceptable. I don't foresee a reasonable person having an OR concern - quoting text from a plaque is, ultimately, no different than quoting from a book; there's just no handy ISBN number. Эlcobbola _talk 20:24, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Infobox

What about this cropped image for the infobox? Protonk (talk) 17:14, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

• We could also crop the longshoreman photo because (Duuhhh, duh, DAAAAHH!!!) the moscone desk photo wouldn't be facing the text. :) Protonk (talk) 17:20, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I suppose...this would be ok for FA? (I like this one better at the top than the longshoremen photo even if Milk isn't facing the text)If we end up getting another by Stuart Milk, I'd like to replace it, but until then...? Anyone have any other ideas? --Moni3 (talk) 17:22, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Alternatively, we could leave the FU image up there and keep the cropped image in the wings for a main page appearance. Protonk (talk) 17:26, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Stuart

No response from Stuart Milk yet at the aol.com address, but that address is from 1999 or 2000. I know what companies Stuart works for but would rather not contact his company email. Daniel Nicoletta, who you mention in your image credits, knows Stuart; should I contact him? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 14:12, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure Stuart Milk gets emails at any and all his addresses. I'd use the work address. Then Dan Nicoletta's. Shall we consider, if we want to nominate this article Fridayish, that we should leave the lead without an image or infobox and place something in there as soon as we have it taken care of? --Moni3 (talk) 15:00, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Why go without? Just take Image:Harvey Milk in 1978 at Mayor Moscone's Desk.jpg or Image:Harvey Milk Campaigning With Longshormen in 1976.jpg and crop to make a new image of just Milk for the infobox. Эlcobbola _talk 15:27, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I'll be happy to co-nom Friday-ish; the text is ready, I think, and the images don't look like a problem to me, although hopefully I'll be able to reach Stuart. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 20:57, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Copyediting again

• On the issue of whether quote marks should go around something that's also linked, Stanton and some others say the presence of a link should never make a difference, on the grounds that Wikipedia has many mirrors and forks (including WP:V0.7, and most of them won't have all the links that we do. I'm okay with deleting quotation marks that would have been used for emphasis when you add a link, if the emphasis wasn't strictly necessary. In this case ("not guilty by reason of insanity"), it's not emphasis, it's a matter of not being readable without the quote marks if there's no blue link, so I think we need them. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 18:43, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
• Okay I'm done. Still haven't heard from Stuart. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 18:46, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I'll let you fight it out with whoever objects to the quotes in the FAC. Epic battle in 3..2..1..

Ok, on Stuart...Worse case scenario is we have to ditch both images in the top portion of the article and have the cropped repeat at the top...Poop. --Moni3 (talk) 19:09, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

• Btw, you're right that we have info in two different sections now on the loss of blue-collar jobs; I was thinking that it's relevant to the section that talks about city demographics, and it's also relevant to the section that talks about how Moscone was able to win, but we could pare back in one place or the other. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 19:19, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

• Well, let's see if someone objects to it. The article is as much about Milk's life as it is about all these demographic changes, but that's why I like it. I think it will probably be ok as long as it doesn't repeat the same or similar phrases. I keep thinking if I were reading this article for the first time it would be hard for me to keep all this stuff...ha ha...straight. --Moni3 (talk) 19:40, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

• Ealdgyth suggested we look at the ELs during the peer review, I suggested 3 could go, although I don't feel strongly about it; thoughts? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 00:42, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Toss 'em. I think deep thoughts. --Moni3 (talk) 01:13, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

• Moni, it seems to me the first paragraph in Change is now a better match for the material in the following subsection. (If it's moved, then Change probably wouldn't be the right title for that subsection.) What do you think? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 15:00, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

• Yah. Did it. --Moni3 (talk) 15:15, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

• "that Milk was the same man as the hippie present at candidates' functions" (in the caption): did she not know that it was Harvey back then, and later make the connection, or did she know it was Harvey back then, know that he had been a hippie, and only later realized that, in some ways, he never stopped being a hippie? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 15:37, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

• Uh. Mmm. She didn't realize in 1978, that the hippie present at those candidates' nights in 1973 was Milk. Careful if you reword that. I'm trying to justify that image. --Moni3 (talk) 15:41, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Understood. How about "would only realize years later that Milk was the hippie she had seen at"? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 16:27, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

• How is this? "Castro Street residents began to leave, and a more educated, professional voting base moved into the city." - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 01:37, 11 October 2008 (UTC)