Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language

July 21

Two Japanese characters

I wanted to know what does the red neon sign say in this pic. Copy-pasteable transcript would be cool too. (It's most likely Japanese)

neon sign

354d 00:06, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Are you pulling our leg? The pic looks solid black from where I'm sitting. —Tamfang 07:20, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

It reminded me of this painting. ---Sluzzelin talk 07:56, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps it says "it's nighttime and this sign is turned off". —Steve Summit (talk) 15:05, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it's 無 (mu - nothingness), written in black on a black background.--Manga 23:35, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

my computer's been acting real weird, I made the image posted the question and when I was scrolling the page like sortof a portion of the image was displayed in the thumbnail and it the thumbnail rolled over the image as i was scrolling. um yea it turns out theres no image or whatever. 354d 06:22, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

name of word

What is the group of words called when the first letter of the word is moved to the end of the word and the meaning of the word remains the same? Example Banana backward it is still ananab. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomsaga (talk • contribs)

Palindrome ? 68.39.174.238 15:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm. I'm not sure that the meaning of "ananab" is the same as "banana". As far as I know, "ananab" is not actually a word. Mike Dillon 15:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

"ananab", which is "banana" with the first letter transposed to the end, is also "banana" backwards, an interesting phenomonen which I have not encountered before. DuncanHill 15:40, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Any more examples? If so, then we (we Wikipedia) can perhaps define and name the class. Bananaindrome or alindromep anyone? :-) hydnjo talk 16:18, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

that's just a class of near-palindromes (palindrome except for the first letter). There's nothing to prevent you from defining other classes of near-palindromes (such as, "palindrome except for the 3rd and 5th letters"), and nomenclature should somehow be systematic (if you can be bothered to classify them at all), such as (1)-near-palindrome. dab (𒁳) 16:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Tomsaga's definition requires that the initial letter be relocated to the end to make the "palindrome". hydnjo talk 16:40, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Here's the complete list from my /usr/share/dict/words:

A a B b C c D d E e F f G g H h I i J j K k L l M m N n O o P p Q q R r S s T t U u V v W w X x Y y Z z aa Ab ad ae Ah ah ai ak Al al am an Ao ar As as at aw ax Ay ay ba be bo Bu bu by ca ce da de di do ea Ed eh el Em em en er es eu ex ey fa fe fi Fo fu Ga ga Ge ge Gi go ha he hi Ho ho Hu id ie if in Io io is it Jo jo Ju ka Ko ko la li Lo lo Lu ly Ma ma me mi Mo mo Mr mu my na ne ni no nu Od od oe of Og oh Ok om on or Os os ow ox pa pi po pu ra re Ro sa se sh si so st ta Td te th ti to tu Ud ug um un up ur us ut Vu Wa wa we wi wo Wu wy xi ya ye ym yn yo yr za zo abb add Ann ann ass baa Bee bee boo cee coo dee ebb egg ell Emm err ess fee foo Gee gee goo grr ill inn lee loo moo naa nee odd off oii pee Ree ree saa see taa tee too ull vee wee woo yee zee zoo Adad adad Agag agog anan anon arar aulu ausu baba baga baka Bala Bana bara Baya baya bene bere bibi Bini biri biti bobo Bodo Bogo bogo boho bojo Bolo bolo Boro boro bozo caba Caca Cana Cara cava caza cede cepe cere Cete chih coco codo coho coto coyo Dada dada dama data Daza dele deme Dene dene dere dodo Doko Doto Emim eyey Faba Fama fana Feme feme Fiji fogo fono fugu Gaia gala Gapa gapa gara gata Gene gene gobo Gogo gogo Golo gugu guru hala haya Hehe hele heme here hobo homo hulu iiwi imam iodo Isis Jaga jama jara Java jete jibi jiti jobo Jodo juju Kafa kaha kaka kala kana kapa kasa kava Kele kele kiki kiri kiwi kiyi Koko koko kolo Koso koto kozo kudu kuku lama lasa lata lava lede lene lete lobo loco Lolo loro Lulu lulu Maba Maga maha Maia Maja mala mana masa Maya maya maza Mede mele mere mese mete Mimi mogo moho moio Mojo mojo moko momo Mono mono Moro moro Moxo moyo Naga naga Naja Nama Nana nana napa nese nete neve nidi nolo Onan Paba paca paga paha Pala papa para pata Pele Pete pete phoh Pici piki pili pipi poco Pogo polo Pomo Pudu pudu puku pulu Puru qere rada raga Raia raia Raja raja Rama Rana rana rasa rata raya rede reve Rifi roto ruru Saba saga Saka sapa Sara sasa saya sele seme Sere sere shah shih sidi sisi soco soho solo soso stet stot stut Suku Sulu Susu susu Sutu swow taha tala Tama tana Tapa tapa tara tawa tele tete Tiki titi toco toho toko topo toro toto Tulu tunu tutu typy vara Vasa vasa Vili Viti waka wawa wede wene were wese weve wudu wuzu yaba Yaka Yana yapa yava yaya yede yere yese yutu Zeke zobo zogo Zulu apoop bacca barra Bassa Batta batta belle benne bussu caffa Calla Canna canna cirri cocco dabba dagga dilli doggo freer Galla galla gamma Gibbi Hakka hanna hocco hollo jarra Jesse jinni kappa kette labba lacca Lappa lotto mamma manna massa matta messe motto narra Nassa Padda palla Panna Parra patta potto recce renne Riffi Rollo sarra stoot Tacca tappa tatta Tekke tekke tenne Tinni verre yacca yakka yalla yocco zimmi zocco zorro acidic acinic Anodon assess auhuhu banana batata beatae boohoo Bororo brewer Carara chapah claval cnicin crewer geejee glycyl gnomon Heinie hoodoo ideaed Isurus kokako korero kronor Macaca macuca marara meinie metate olivil Osiris palila peewee petite plagal pookoo potato prefer preyer Ranina repipe repope revive rococo sawbwa seesee teevee tooroo toozoo topepo torero trikir uneven ureter venene voodoo woohoo Yarura zoozoo challah dresser fretter grammar Guarrau knappan presser trekker barabara caracara dyspepsy galagala kivikivi kiwikiwi kolokolo Kukuruku libidibi locofoco Makaraka matamata mocomoco murumuru pirijiri piripiri poroporo protutor Purupuru ramarama redivide retinite semitime takamaka tikitiki torotoro assertress levitative predivider Wallawalla

Note that if there is no established name for these things, we (as Wikipedia) are not within our scope to invent our own name; see Wikipedia:No original research. —Bkell (talk) 17:53, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The dual list, where the last letter must be moved to the beginning, is the following:

A a B b C c D d E e F f G g H h I i J j K k L l M m N n O o P p Q q R r S s T t U u V v W w X x Y y Z z aa Ab ad ae Ah ah ai ak Al al am an Ao ar As as at aw ax Ay ay ba be bo Bu bu by ca ce da de di do ea Ed eh el Em em en er es eu ex ey fa fe fi Fo fu Ga ga Ge ge Gi go ha he hi Ho ho Hu id ie if in Io io is it Jo jo Ju ka Ko ko la li Lo lo Lu ly Ma ma me mi Mo mo Mr mu my na ne ni no nu Od od oe of Og oh Ok om on or Os os ow ox pa pi po pu ra re Ro sa se sh si so st ta Td te th ti to tu Ud ug um un up ur us ut Vu Wa wa we wi wo Wu wy xi ya ye ym yn yo yr za zo aal aam eel eer ssu abac abas adad adat adaw aday afar agal agar ajar alan alar alas amah amar anal anam anan anay apar arad arar asak atap aval awag awat away axal ayah baba babe babu baby bibb bibi boba bobo buba bubo cack coca cock coco cuck dada dade dado dedo dodd dodo dude edea eheu eker epee even ever ewer exes eyed eyen eyer eyey faff fife fifo fuff gage gegg gogo gugu ibid ibis idic ilia ipid ipil irid iris ivin iwis juju kaka kaki kike kiki kiku koko koku kuku lall lalo lile lill lilt lily loll lull lulu mamo memo mima mime mimp mome momo mump nana nane nant nine none oboe obol odor ohoy papa pape pepo pipa pipe pipi pipy pope pupa rare rory ruru sasa sash sess sise sish sisi siss sist sosh soso soss susi susu tate tath tatu tete teth tite titi tote toto toty tute tuth tuts tutu ulua urus utum viva vive wawa wowt yaya zizz zuza abbas addax allan allay amman annal annat appay arrah arras arrau array assai assay attar booby deedy edder egger emmer emmet essed immit immix kooka peepy teeth teety tooth aenean alclad alular amamau amomal amtman ananas ararao bacaba banaba bedebt biriba caback camaca caract cilice civics divide epopee finify garage imamic karaka kawaka lobola lucule lunula lunule madame mazame minima nagana naiant natant niding niminy paraph rejerk reverb revere revers revert revery secesh semese sorose tarata terete tipiti visive wokowi cannach carrack collock diffide nipping rettery succuss suffuse tannate tillite adinidan avadavat mesoseme promorph riroriro rotatory selfless tartrate sensuousness

These words can be described as words n letters long such that the first n − 1 letters form a palindrome. Likewise, the words in my first list are the words n letters long such that the last n − 1 letters form a palindrome. —Bkell (talk) 18:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Arghhh! I can't believe that my bee-bee brain missed that concept! :-( - hydnjo talk 19:00, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Knallcharge

Would it be appropriate to translate the German Knallcharge as ham (in the sense of a hammy actor), or is there more to it than that? Also, which word is more derogatory? Thanks! Bhumiya (said/done) 13:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I think it's a good translation. Knallcharge, similar to Knalltüte, can also be used off-stage, for a silly, buffoon-type person. To me, Knallcharge sounds slightly more derogatory when applied to a person's (intentional or not) real-life hysterics, but perhaps equal in detraction when the exaggerated acting is a defined part on stage (e.g. slapstick parts, commedia dell'arte, Hitler on ice etc.). ---Sluzzelin talk 01:11, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Alright, PONS has buffoon attributing Knallcharge to film and theatre only, without offstage reference. Maybe my understanding of ham isn't entirely correct. I think buffoon works well though and just saw I had used it above. Knall- in connection with people has the flavor of craziness (e.g. "Knallkopf", "Knalltüte", "durchgeknallt", "Du hast wohl einen Knall?"). Charge nowadays is a not very respectful word for a supporting role in general, but originally came from French chargé as in loaded, and was used for stereotype loud parts loaded with clichés and overdone, as could be seen in in comical opera and theatre (Possen, Schwänke, Lustspiele). ---Sluzzelin talk 07:24, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I now looked up ham, and PONS has "Schmierenkomödiant'" for the noun, and "'übertrieben darstellen", "zu dick auftragen" for the verb. ---Sluzzelin talk 07:31, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Sluzzelin. I was curious because I read a German news story describing Tom Cruise as a "Hollywood-Knallcharge". All definitions of the term implied a comedic role, but that didn't seem right. It seemed more like they meant "Hollywood ham". The only other person described as a "Hollywood-Knallcharge" (according to Google) is Adam Sandler, which seems entirely appropriate. Bhumiya (said/done) 12:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Yep, when Cruise is called a Knallcharge, it's definitely derogatory, referring to his unintentionally comical acting clichés (the way he flexes his muscles of mastication, say). In Sandler's case, I think Knallcharge applies to his roles and the way he (deliberately!) plays them, which can be annoying, just like some people can't stand Robin Williams in movies, but the attribution isn't as condescending here, and, if at all, criticizes taste rather than acting skills. ---Sluzzelin talk 00:41, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! That clears it up. Bhumiya (said/done) 14:24, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Norwegian: "Hurrungane"

Could someone who knows something about Norway or Norwegian confirm this edit, in which it is claimed that the name of the Norwegian mountain range Hurrungane "roughly translates to 'The Bastards'"? —Steve Summit (talk) 15:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Sort of, yes. This is especially clear with the variant spelling Horungane. It's a negative word meaning the bastards (the whore-offspring). Haukur 19:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I see that the page has now been modified to include an alternative etymology. Nevertheless I think the meaning first suggested is the one that will most readily come to people's minds. I'm not a native speaker, though. Haukur 19:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! —Steve Summit (talk) 19:19, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

What language is the linked Wikipedia in?

What language is the [1] wikipedia in please? DuncanHill 18:13, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Per ISO 639:l, it looks like "lmo" is the ISO code for the Lombard language. Mike Dillon 18:37, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Excellent, thank you Mike. DuncanHill 18:39, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I looked at the Lombard language article a little closer and it appears that there are actually two different Lombard languages, Western and Eastern. When I tried to figure out which language is being used for lmo.wikipedia.org, I noticed that it seems to be both. Take a look at these two links:

• lmo:Wikipedia:Introdössiú
• lmo:Wikipedia:Intrudüzziun

Even though the former redirects to the latter and both seem to mean "introduction", looking at the two different articles results in different sidebars! If you look at the first one, the portlet titles on the sidebar are "navegazzion" and "interazzion"; if you look at the second one, the titles are "navegassiú" and "interassiú". There are also differences in the portlet links themselves ("La Wikipédia, vargòt a l'è?" v. "La Wikipédia, ergòt è-la?"). What's more strange is that it seems like the sidebars don't match the language of the link clicked; I would think that the "ssiú" words would go together and so would the "zzion" and "zziun" words...

Can someone please confirm that they're seeing this same behavior before I go crazy? I looked at lmo:Monobook.js and viewed the HTML source of the two pages and the differences appear there as well, so I don't think this is being done with site JavaScript. Mike Dillon 21:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The original link I provided has tabs on it which appear to switch between different orthographies or dialects of the language, one occidental and one oriental (which would correspond with Western and Eastern variants). DuncanHill 21:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The community portal uses unified orthography. The page called Koiné da servizzi says: "The ’’’koiné da servizzi’’’ is a minimal synthesis of the Lumbaart dialects. It's used in the portal, the pàgine de jutt, and, in general", in pages of service, i.e., dedicated to the working of the Wikipedia. (my "translation", but I don't speak that language) A.Z. 21:37, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I figured it out... In lmo:MediaWiki:Sidebar, they have a conditional transclusion of one of two templates, lmo:Template:Sidebar 0 and lmo:Template:Sidebar 1. There is a modulo expression that is supposed to make it alternate every other day, but because of caching issues, it actually gets stuck on whatever day the page in question is cached. Since the URLs are different for the two variations, Wikimedia's Squid cluster caches them in separate entries... Looks like a funny way to avoid western/eastern edit warring over the sidebar. Glad we don't have any disputes at that level of visibility about American and Commonwealth English. Mike Dillon 21:33, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I hit "Pàgina a l'asard" (random page) several times and found that each article has a subhead specifying a dialect. Wow. Most are in Bergamasch with "unified" orthography, but there's also lmo:koiné da la ferovia, the common dialect of the railroad(?). —Tamfang 00:01, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Special type of acronym or initialism, what's it called?

I'm looking for a term to describe a type of acronym resembling another word or phrase when the initial letters are pronounced separately. Examples: FX for "effects", ICQ for "I seek you". The article on acronym and initialism calls them "pseudo-acronyms", while the article on pseudo-acronym calls ICQ a pseudo-initialism, The example that prompted this question is Éric Serra's album title RXRA, which yields something close to Éric Serra when pronounced in French (/ɛ:ʁ/iks/ɛ:ʁ/a/) . Is there a more specific term for this other than pseudo-acronym or pseudo-initialism? ---Sluzzelin talk 22:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC) (I checked L.H.O.O.Q. too, but the article simply calls it "a coarse French pun". ---Sluzzelin talk 23:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

As well as pictures, rebuses often use single letters standing for their own names, so things like FX can be considered a form of rebus, and I have seen that term "rebus" used informally for them. But of course a rebus for "I seek you" could also use pictures of an eye and a ewe, so even if you accept the term, it isn't specific to these constructs. --Anonymous, July 23, 00:17 (UTC).

Thank you! That didn't occur to me, and it makes perfect sense. ---Sluzzelin talk 05:47, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Just in case this may help, in French it is called "allographe" [2]. Korg (talk) 00:48, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Great link, thanks, Korg. Interesting, three angles, three terms (allography, rebus, pseudo-acronymy) all of which more often mean something close to yet distinct from ICQ-type word play. It floats in the intersection of the three semantic fields. ---Sluzzelin talk 07:35, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

July 22

Learning French.

Could anyone recommend materials (books, websites, CDs, etc) useful for learning French? It's for someone who only speaks English. Preferably, it would allow you to see how words are written and pronounced (many CDs don't come with written words, and vice verca), and start from a very basic, simple area before getting more advanced.

One of the sister projects to Wikipedia, Wikibooks, has a French book you might find useful --iamajpeg 12:43, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I highly recommend using French in Action. It's a combined video, audio, and literal program. You can purchase the books and CDs off of amazon.com. The DVDs are very expensive, but you can get the videos for free by recording them on your local PBS station or watching them streamed on the official website. I'm using it now, and it's by far the best language-learning program I've ever seen. It has you thinking in French from the start, and it never compares French words to English ones. It starts out with the basics and makes sure you understand them. If you have the motivation to get through the 52 lessons, you'll certainly gain a solid understanding of the French language.--El aprendelenguas 02:53, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Once you're past raw beginner status, try some Franco-Belgian comics. I think Asterix and Tintin contributed a lot to my knowledge of French. —Tamfang 17:50, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

meaning

behove

wikt:behove. Please search Wiktionary for this kind of thing in the future. -Elmer Clark 10:21, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Or an actual dictionary. Tesseran 22:06, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

"Actual" dictionary?? Perhaps you ought to try an "actual" encyclopedia instead of this one :P -Elmer Clark 05:57, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

origine of one word

the word xnoybis was used by Giacinto Scelsi for one violin composition. Is now used by musical groups (for instance Goldflesh). The question is: where does this word come from? Does it have a meaning in some language? pellegrg —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pellegrg (talk • contribs)

Looks better in Greek letters: "χνούβις" Seems to be an obscure, perhaps inauthentic, theonym. Haukur 16:26, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Wait, scratch that. This is probably what you're looking for: [3] Haukur 16:29, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Error or not?

Is the phrase "delicious restaurants" incorrect, or is it a metaphor of some sort? (One would expect instead "restaurants with delicious food", unless the locale were made of something edible, or the speaker were a termite.) Is it a form of metonomy? I'd appreciate some guidance here. Thanks Bielle 20:22, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

In Korean we say 맛있는 집 (tasty house) to mean 맛있는 음식을 하는 가게 (shop with tasty food). It can be shortened further to 맛집 (taste house) and everyone will understand. This doesn't really answer your question, but I wanted to point out that similar phrases exist in other languages as well. --Kjoonlee 20:34, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

The phrase sounds fine to me. I'd say that the default reading involves metonymy: the restaurant stands in for the food that is served there. It's probably possible to have a metaphorical reading as well, using "delicious" to mean something like "delightful" as in "delicious irony". Mike Dillon 20:49, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

It sounds odd (unless they're made of wood and you're a beaver). Clarityfiend 21:59, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

How does "expensive restaurants" sound to you? Does it make you think that the restaurants are expensive, or that the food they serve is expensive? What about "expensive cities"? Mike Dillon 22:13, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Looks like there are about 49,000 hits for this phrase on Google: "delicious restaurants". Whether or not it is "correct", I think the intended meaning generally involves metonymy. Mike Dillon 22:13, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you all for your input. Bielle 02:47, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

How to correctly spell and definition

I'm wondering how I can correctly spell the word "Aderondex", I've tried googling it and I just find people who use that as a username and also people who say things like "not sure how to spell it".

Can someone please tell me how it's actually spelled and also what it means? Thanks —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.202.141.121 (talk • contribs) 23:58, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

The Adirondacks are some mountains in the United States of America - hope this answers your question! DuncanHill 00:01, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

July 23

Pronunciation of this Latin name

Eustachius Benedictus De Lannoy How to pronounce this name in its original (non-anglicized) style? 58.216.233.166 03:32, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

You-stah-key-us Bay-nay-deect-us Day Lan-noy would be how I'd pronounce it, but I don't think that the name is Latin. Eustachius Benedictus could be, but the "De Lannoy" doesn't make any sense to me, as I have never seen 'de' used in a name and Lannoy doesn't look like anything vaguely Latin to me. That being said, I have only had three years of Latin, so I may be wrong. --Falconus 03:44, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Aha. A quick search gave me this. Looks like he was Dutch. I have no idea how to pronounce Dutch though, sorry. --Falconus 03:48, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

In today's Dutch this comes out more or less like /œyˌstɑxiʏs benəˌdɪktʏs də lɑˈnɔj/. There may have been significant sound shifts in the 250 years or so since his days. Although "Lannoy" looks like it might be an old French name, that region of France was part of the Netherlands till the middle of the 17th century and is in the (until recently) Dutch-speaking part of France, so it should be pronounced the Dutch way.  --Lambiam 06:28, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

In my (limited) experience, many Dutch people have forenames which are in a Latin form on birth-certificates, passports etc, but a shorter Dutch form for everyday use, eg, my friend Paul is always called Paul, but his passport says Paulus. DuncanHill 09:13, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Two Japanese characters2

I wanted to know what does the red neon sign say.

neon sign

neon sign

354d 07:20, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe the second letter is れ (re). Haukur 09:47, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

It's をれ (wore). What that's supposed to mean I don't know. --Ptcamn 10:10, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I googled it, and をれ (wore) seems to be an older form of おれ (ore - 'I'(male)), though I had never seen this before.--Manga 14:47, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

But why would an archaic personal pronoun be on a neon sign? :o Haukur 14:50, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Does the vaguely readable kanji below the sign give a context or clue? A possible explanation that comes to mind is that this is a shop for traditional men's clothing.  --Lambiam 16:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

omg wow! you're awesome. idk that could be a hoax or whatever just as well. I have to disappoint you (lol) that's not IRL it's from a video that I initially thought was just some random shit but then I noticed it had a plotline or whatever and that neon sign was hugely emphasized. Is it possible to think of wore and ore in some somehow culturally competitive context like "wore vs. ore"? 'Cause it's weird that there's such a substantial concept ("I") on that sign, that it doesn't, actually, have any meaning. 354d 22:36, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Surely its a simplified image of a person walking, well that's what appeared to me when I first looked at it. Richard Avery 06:38, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Transcription

Who can transcribe the following names:

William Chen

Metehan Ozten

Michael Shaner

Megha Manjunath

Keith Avery

to Arabic, Russian, Greek, and Hindi? And can anyone provide a transliteration of the transcription? --hello, i'm a member | talk to me! 07:31, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

In Arabic, if you want all the vowels to be represented by Arabic long vowels:

• William Chen - ويليام تشان (wīlīām tshān) (there is no separate "ch" letter in Arabic)
• Metehan Ozten - ماتاهان وزتان (mātāhān ūztān)
• Michael Shaner - ميكال شلنار (maykāl shānār)
• Mehga Manjunath - ماهجا مانجوناث (māhja mānjūnāth) (j is pronounced g in some dialects)
• Keith Avery - كيث ايفاري (kīth ayfārī) (Arabic has no v)

And do you want modern Greek or classical Greek? Adam Bishop 08:05, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Cyrillic

William Chen - Уильям Чэнь

Чжэнь, per Cyrillization of Chinese from Wade-Giles --Ghirla^-трёп- 20:19, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Metehan Ozten - Метехан Озтен

Оцтен, if the name is German. --Ghirla^-трёп- 20:19, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

It is not; see below.  --Lambiam 00:31, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Michael Shaner - Майкл Шейнер

Mehga Manjunath - Мехджа (Мехга/Меджа/Мега?) Манджунат

I think Мехга is correct. --Ghirla^-трёп- 20:19, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Keith Avery - Кит Эйвери or Эвери

---Sluzzelin talk 08:56, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The name Ozten is a Turkish name, spelled Özten in the Turkish alphabet and pronounced /ˈœz̟t̪en/. I don't know if that makes a difference for the transliterations to Arabic, Cyrillic, and Devanagari, but I imagine it might show in the Greek transliteration, seeing how Goethe gets transliterated as Γκαίτε, and Schröder as Σρέντερ.  --Lambiam 17:38, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

In Russian, Öcalan gets Оджалан, or here:Казнь Оджалана не остановит курдов. So I assume it would remain Озтен. ---Sluzzelin talk 07:48, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

For the Greek transcription, I want modern Greek. Thank you for all the help! --hello, i'm a member | talk to me! 18:49, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I think the Arabic transliteration of Ozten should be اوزتان since و in the beginning of words corresponds to /w/ rather than to a vowel. — Zerida 02:56, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Ack, you're right! How silly of me. Adam Bishop 03:44, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Also, it is Megha and not Mehga. The gh represents an aspirated velar stop /gʰ/, which (if not present in the target system) is best approximated by the unaspirated /g/. I don't know how to fix this for the Arabic transliteration, but for Russian I think it would just be Мега.  --Lambiam 23:26, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

For modern Greek:

• William Chen – Ουίλλιαμ Τσεν
• Metehan Ozten – Μετεχάν Οζτέν
• Michael Shaner – Μάικλ Σαίνερ
• Megha Manjunath – Μέγκα Μάντζουνατ
• Keith Avery – Κιθ Άβερυ

I had to guess which syllables have the stress in Megha Manjunath. For Metehan Ozten I've used what seems to be the traditional way of ascribing stress to Turkish names in Greek transliterations, even though it does not accord with the actual stress pattern.  --Lambiam 23:24, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Straßenmeisterei

What does the German word "Straßenmeisterei" mean? Breaking it up seems to yield "street master", but this doesn't make much sense, especially not in the context of this image, which is of a large brine tank, so I'm guessing it's idiomatic. Frustratingly, the German Wikipedia has an article de:Straßenmeisterei, but it doesn't link to an English equivalent, and neither my very shoddy German skills nor a babelfish translation can make much sense of it. Laïka 10:47, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

It's a road maintenance authority. Is there anything specific you need to know about it? Haukur 11:11, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

"Road maintenance depot", according to this translation tool. MalcolmSpudbury 11:26, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

correct. It's a term of FRG legalese. Historically, Meisterei is the status of an independent artisan, and also for the workshop of such an artisan[4]. The -ei suffix is that of other terms for artisan workshops, such as Schneiderei (taylor's workshop) or Schreinerei (carpenter's workshop). It is (non-trivially, both seem to have obscure origins in Vulgar Latin) related to English -ery (as in pot:pottery, nun:nunnery) dab (𒁳) 14:23, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Alright, thanks! Laïka 16:47, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

-ei appears to be the origin of Esperanto -ej 'place for *', as in lernejo 'school'. —Tamfang 23:45, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Bibliography etiquette

I've been reading Breaking the Spell and noticed that although the author has an extensive bibliography, it isn't exhaustive in that some things which are referenced or actually quoted in the text are not listed. This raises three questions for me:

1. Is it the author's perogative as to what is included in a bibliograpy or would it be better form to at least attempt to be comprehensive?
2. Would it be expected to include the Bible, the Koran, and similar texts in a bibliography? (and do we write "The Bible" or "the Bible"?
3. What would be the correct form of citing the Bible and the Koran when the form used was: "Author(s). YEAR. Book Name. Publisher"?

JAXHERE | ^Talk 14:37, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

There is a distinction, not always properly maintained, between: (a) the apparatus needed for proper citations and references; (b) a list of material for further reading included as a service to the reader; and (c) a list of "works consulted" – not needed if already subsumed by (a) and (b). For an academic publication the rules for proper citation are much more stringent than for publications aimed at the public at large. In the latter case, citations and a bibliography are more of a courtesy to the reader. In the academic context, a citation is de rigeur if it used to support an argument forwarded by the author, or if the author conversely attacks the position of the cited text. If a quotation is used essentially as a literary device (as, for example, in: "Or, as Montesquieu expressed it, liberty is the right of doing whatever the laws permit") I think it is the author's prerogative to decide whether to provide a bibliographic reference for such a quotation.

How the Bible or the Quran are to be cited, if they are cited, will depend on the citation style in force. Clearly, the format "Author(s). YEAR. Book Name. Publisher" does not work. For the Bible, you'd normally give the name of the book, chapter and verse numbers, and the edition cited. In a bibliography, the edition will suffice. For the Quran, you can identify the sura and if necessary the ayat, and if you quote a translation, the edition.

Use The Bible at the beginning of a sentence, but the Bible in the middle of a sentence.  --Lambiam 18:16, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

If the work is related to the Bible, you should quote the edition of that too, especially if the work is about Bible codes or the like, where exact word order is important; just look at how different the various renderings of John 3:16 are. Laïka 22:58, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

United States Army Corps of Engineers

Is the possessive of Corps Corps' or Corps's? Corvus cornix 17:45, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Because the s in Corps is silent, the possessive (pronounced korz) is normally written Corps's. See further Apostrophe#Singular nouns ending in s, z, or x ("Some prefer Descartes' and Dumas', while others insist on Descartes's and Dumas's...the theoretical question is whether the existing s is the one that is sounded, or whether another s needs to be supplied."). New Fowler's Modern English Usage and New Hart's Rules say to write Dumas's.[5] MLA Handbook⁶ gives "Descartes's" as an example, but that's meaningless since they're of the school that every singular takes 's (cases such as "Jesus'" and "Aeschines'" not mentioned). "Rabelais's" has been in use for quite a while,[6], though I don't know a way to do a decent search for Rabelais'. A 1966 book review published in Modern Philology remarked, "The possessive form...is now generally accepted, and logically so, as 'Rabelais's' and not just with the apostrophe as used by the author [A.C. Keller, of the book under review, in English, published in Frankfurt, Germany]."[7] The "now" does raise the possibility that Rabelais' (endorsed by The Times: see this discussion) was previously considered the better usage. Wareh 18:16, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

That's what I thought. Thank you. Corvus cornix 18:36, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

P.S. A more focused Google Books search shows that Pope, Addison, Sterne, and Swift all published works in the 18th c. using the form Rabelais's. So I'm going to stick with that. Wareh 17:30, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

The rule I've adopted (I dunno where I first saw it expressed, possibly in the Chicago Manual of Style) is to omit the s only if the noun is plural (Corps is singular) and ends in s. —Tamfang 23:43, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Does this sound right to you? (help with an English phrase)

I was reading an introduction to a chemistry thesis and the usage of the word 'before' struck me as a bit weird. It doesn't sound right to me - but I might be as well mistaken. Look at the sentence:

Before introducing the main topic of my internship I would like to...

Does the usage of the word 'before' fit in this sentence? Or is there one that would fit better? Thanks for your replies, --Missmarple 21:02, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Sounds fine to me. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 21:19, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Using 'before' in that context (as above) creates this very common phrase in American English; I think using 'prior' would also be OK, but I personally think that's worse. --hello, i'm a member | talk to me! 21:21, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Would that be 'prior to introducing...'? --Missmarple 21:45, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Tesseran 22:12, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Ugh, don't give such ideas! Prior to ought to be used only when one thing precedes the other by logical necessity rather than merely in time. Otherwise its only function is to say "I'm too highbrow to use a plain English word." —Tamfang 23:41, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Basically, it's just a way to use two words instead of one. Sounds weaselish and buzzwordy. Bhumiya (said/done) 04:34, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

"Introducing" is only right if the people you are speaking to are unaware of what the main topic of your internship is. If they are aware of what it is, "discussing" might be better. "Before" is fine, though. Neil ╦ 15:57, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

It's also proper (imho) to "introduce" ('lead in') a subject if it hasn't yet been mentioned in the present environment, even if the audience knows all about it. —Tamfang 17:36, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

What is going on here is several people trying to persuade you to use their way of speaking. Your sentence makes perfect sense, is gramatically correct (within the general ambit of spoken English) and will be easily understood by any speaker of English. Use your style and good luck with your presentation. Richard Avery 06:45, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Germanic "state of being" suffixes

There seem to be four main suffixes in Germanic languages for describing state of being, condition, or extent/amount. These are cognates of English -ship (friendship, assistantship), -dom (freedom, wisdom, kingdom), -ness (blindness, bitterness), -hood (likelihood, childhood). What seems patently strange is that English is unusual among Germanic languages in the rarity of its use of -hood, especially in making a noun from an adjective. In German for example, -heit, with its derivative -keit,(cognate of Eng. -hood) is the usual choice. Blindness and deafness, not blindhood and deafhood, but German Blindheit and Taubheit, not Blindnis and Taubnis. Wisdom and freedom, not wisehood and freehood, but German Weisheit and Freiheit, not Weistum and Freitum. Dutch also uses its equivalent -heid as the main choice. My question is: Why do all Germanic languages except English use the equivalent of "-hood" for the majority of state of being or extent nouns, but English usually uses -ness? That is to say, how can one "historico-linguistically" explain this difference in usage?

-User: Nightvid

I think the primary reason is because -hood is for nouns and -ness is for turning adjectives into nouns as well as it's state of being. German uses -heit, our word -hood is related in that it used to be -hád and -hæd, However, -ness is just as important, we share it with Icelandic (-nes) and Gothic (-(n)assus), which German does not use. I guess it's like we're stuck between -- or more likely we obtained it from the Vikings, just like our use of They, Them, etc but I can't be 100% on that. However, both are just as valid and Germanic, it's just German is stuck with -heit as being for both, and we've got one for nouns specifically and ones for adjectives (usually). --Anthonysenn 00:01, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

German does have it: German wild = English wild, German wildnis = English wilderness (If only we didn't have the 'er' part!), German bitter = English bitter, German bitternis = English bitterness (although 'bitterkeit' is the more common German word for 'bitterness'.) German Ersparnis "savings" (very literally "spare-ness", German sparen = to spare). German -tum, as in wachstum "growth", literally "wax-dom", "to wax" = wachsen.

Also, the -ship and -dom suffixes correspond to German -schaft and -tum, Frisian, Dutch -schap (?) and -dom. Interestingly, the compound "friendship" is common Germanic (Dutch vriendschap, German Freundschaft, Swedish vaenskap, Norwegian vennskap, Danish venskab). -User: Nightvid

Okay, I must be really thick now because it's my native language - but where does Icelandic use a -nes suffix? Haukur 20:36, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Laxness? :)  --Lambiam 16:15, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that the vast majority of '-hood' words in English relate a) to humans, and b) to roles or relationships rather than qualities - i.e. the answer to 'what are they?' rather than to 'what are they like?'. The OED does not directly corroborate this, though it does say "... -hood can be affixed at will to almost any word denoting a person or concrete thing, and to many adjectives ...", but if I search in it for "*hood", the first few pages of entries (omitting those that are entirely different 'hood's, such as 'acoustic hood' and 'Robin Hood') are

• Adamhood
• adulthood
• all-hood
• angelhood
• animalhood
• anthood
• apehood
• apostlehood
• apprenticehood
• archbishophood
• archpriesthood
• arghhood
• aunthood
• babehood
• babyhood
• bachelorhood
• back-hood
• bairnhood
• baronethood
• barrenhood
• beadlehood
• beasthood
• beastlihood
• beautyhood
• beerhood

Of these, almost all meet my characterisation above - the exceptions are 'all-hood', 'arghhood' (cowardliness) 'back-hood' and 'barrenhood', all of which are marked as obsolete. (Note that 'beautyhood' is not defined as 'beauty', but as "A woman's ‘reign’ as a beauty; society of beauties, also beauties collectively", and 'beerhood' similarly as " A beer-drinking class or set". This last actually seems to me to represent a distinct meaning of '-hood' not listed by the OED: a collection of people united by some role or character. --ColinFine 23:03, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

gender priority in latin

I've been googling for this but haven't got anywhere, so I thought it was time to ask. What is the gender priority in Latin for a sentence like "The X, Y and Z are excellent?" Is "excellent" in the masculine, feminine or neuter form? What about for adjectives used as nouns, like "Summum bonum"? Here, I can see that bonum must be either neuter or, if masculine, in the accusative case, so I suppose it's neuter, but is this a general rule? Thanks in advance, 203.221.126.205 23:17, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Singular adjectives used as abstract nouns tend to be neuter. In "summum bonum", the abstract "bonum" is neuter. If you have a group of people, both men and women, then by default they are all masculine (even if there is one man and 1000 women). If you have a group of things, say an apple, a fig, and a date palm (neuter pomum, masculine ficus, and feminine palma), they are collectively neuter if you want to add an adjective like "excellent" (how about "praestantissima"). Just to make it more fun, sometimes you can make the adjective agree with the nearest noun (so in the above example it would be feminine), and sometimes a whole group of things will simply be masculine, like with people. But for things I would go with neuter. Adam Bishop 23:57, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply Adam (and the vocab builder as well). Just to follow up, if you had things, not people, and they were masculine and feminine, with no neuter objects, would you go for masculine or neuter in that case? Also, am I the only person who finds it strange that you can bend these rules and just make the adjective agree with the nearest noun? It seems like the rule ought to hold fast, otherwise, in a language that relies on inflexions rather than word order, it looks like a way of creating possible confusion, or at least imprecision. 203.221.126.205 01:59, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

In that case the neuter plural is preferred ("ficus et palma praestantissima"), although the same options would apply - you could attach an adjective to the nearest noun (also "ficus et palma praestantissima" since the feminine singular and neuter plural have the same ending; or masculine if you switch them the other way around "palma et ficus praestantissimus"; if you had plural fruits, fici et palmae, then "excellent" would be plural too, praestantissimae), or use the masculine plural ("ficus et palma praestantissimi"). I am using Bradley's Arnold Latin Prose Composition by J.F. Mountford for this, by the way, and yes, it can be very confusing, and I hope I myself am reading the explanation correctly! You're right about the imprecision too, because "ficus et palma praestantissima" could mean you have a really amazing date and only a regular ho-hum fig. There are other ways to make it more precise though - you could say "ficus palmaque praestantissima", then you know you are referring to both the fig and the palm and not just one of them. I don't think Latin grammarians really ever tackled this particular problem, so we can't look to them for a prescriptive rule, and instead have to look at hundreds of years of actual usage in Latin literature, which can be inconsistent. Sorry, I got a little carried away there! Anyway, I would use the neuter for all your examples, that seems to be the most acceptable and least confusing way of doing it. Adam Bishop 03:34, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks again, very much appreciated, and for the book ref., which is in my uni library. Just to clarify one final point, if you use the feminine adjective, I take it it would be illegitimate to put that in the plural, "ficus et palma praestantissimae" (I think that's what I'm after: -ae is first declension plural nominative)? If so, in fact it makes sense: if you can only use the singular form, then the grammar is in fact correctly typed - the listener can assume if he wishes that the adjective applies to the whole set, but theoretically it applies to the date palm. 203.221.126.227 01:06, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

July 24

Continuation of above: Transcription

Who can transcribe the following names:

William Chen

Metehan Ozten

Michael Shaner

Megha Manjunath

Keith Avery

to Arabic, Russian, modern Greek, and Hindi? And can anyone provide a transliteration of the transcription? --hello, i'm a member | talk to me! 00:18, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Why do you post this separate "continuation"? It is confusing. Above you already have transcriptions to Arabic and Russian. Let's keep the discussion there.  --Lambiam 00:24, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

HEBREW words or writing

Good Day!

I would like to know how FAITH HOPE and LOVE are written in HEBREW. From what I have read there's proper spacing and some other things to consider otherwise it would have a totally different meaning.

THank you very much for your time and patience. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ants4three (talk • contribs) 01:17, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

A good day indeed! Faith, love and hope are written very easily in Hebrew. If you would like to see (I assume you mean the Heb. equivalents of faith, hope and love - transliterations in Heb. are particularly awkward):

• (אמונה (אֱמוּנָה = Faith
• (תקווה (תִקְוָה = Hope
• (אהבה (אַהֲבָה = Love

In the brackets you have the word with the vowels, or without - writing without vowels is common in Hebrew.

- СПУТНИК^{CCC P} 02:10, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Good day again!

Thank you very much for the reply you had given. It is very much appreciated. Another question would be if i were to write them VERTICALLY, how would the correct way be or look like? Also is it true about the spacing that if it is incorrectly written it would mean a totally different thing?

Thank you very much sir/ma'am.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.7.209.160 (talk • contribs) 03:07, 24 July 2007.

Before you have these words tattooed, you should double check and triple check you've got them right. I'm used to browsers mangling the appearance of non-Western scripts, for example getting confused about the direction of writing, but also substituting incorrectly shaped characters. Also, are you sure the Hebrew translations have the connotations you are looking for? The entry on the Hebrew Wikipedia for אמונה, for example, corresponds to our English article for Belief, which does not have quite the same meaning as Faith. Also, are these words exactly the same in classical Hebrew (which I assume you are interested in) as in modern Hebrew? For the latter, you might want to know which words are used in translations of 1 Corinthians 13:13. Note that the latter text was actually written in Greek, not in Hebrew.

Hebrew is written from right to left (unlike English), or vertically from high to low (like English). So for the word אמונה, for example, the letter on top is א, followed by a מ, and so on, and all three words have a ה at the bottom.  --Lambiam 04:39, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

And oh, about the spacing, that's just as in English. If you insert a space in a word like issued to produce is sued, you change the meaning.  --Lambiam 04:47, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the information regarding the HEBREW writings. Would you be able to help me with the words FAITH LOVE and HOPE then? I would very much appreciate all the help I can get.

Thank you very much for your time and patience. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ants4three (talk • contribs) 06:17, July 24, 2007 – Please sign your posts!

I would also strongly advise against getting tattooed in a language that neither you nor your tattoo artist is likely to know. If you check the Hebrew translation of Cor. 13 (yes, there are Hebrew translations of the New Testament!), you get this:

• וְעַתָּה תַעֲמֹדְנָה שְׁלָשׁ־אֵלֶּה אֱמוּנָה תִּקְוָה וְאַהֲבָה וְהַגְּדֹלָה בָהֵן הִיא הָאַהֲבָה

which is exactly what I gave: 'And now stand these three things; faith (emunah), hope (tiqvah) and love (ahavah), and the greatest of them is love.'

However, if you want to have them in the original language of Corinthians (which may have been your original intent) you might want to consider them in Greek:

• νυνι δε μενει πιστις ελπις αγαπη τα τρια ταυτα μειζων δε τουτων η αγαπη

πιστις (ΠΙΣΤΙΣ) - faith

ελπις (ΕΛΠΙΣ) - hope

αγαπη (ΑΓΑΠΗ) - love

Hope this helps. СПУТНИК^{CCC P} 14:53, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Except that the Greek you give is devoid of diacriticals and thus misspelled (in demotic, it would be old-style diacriticals including breathings at the beginnings of ἐλπίς and ἀγαπῆ. Donald Hosek 16:45, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Ease of pronunciation

I would like to create a name for a company that is intended to go international, and want to ensure that the name is easy to read and pronounce in any language that uses our alphabet. It seems that each language omits certain sounds that are natural to native speakers of other languages, and those sounds are often difficult to pronounce if you've not grown up with them. I would like to avoid letters or letter combinations that are on any language's "difficult" list. It doesn't matter if the pronunciation differs wildly from one language to another, so long as it is easy to pronounce the word upon reading it. Does anyone know if there has been a linguistics study of these sounds, so that I can get a list of them? Thank you. 152.16.188.107 04:10, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

By "our" alphabet I assume you mean the 26-letter Latin alphabet. If you also want the name to sound the same as it would be pronounced by an English speaker, you may have a problem. If it's just ease of pronunciation, the following rules should work for most languages. (1) Stick to single vowels a, e, i, o, and u, alternating with single consonants, but ending with a vowel. (2) Relatively safe consonants are b, d, k, m, n, p, s, and t. (3) You may insert an n in front of an intervocalic d or t, and an m in front of an intervocalic b or p. Some examples: Abondi, Tamputo, Eseko. It may be important to check that your fantasy name does not mean something bad in a possible market. There is the urban legend that the Chevrolet Nova didn't do well in Spanish-speaking countries, where no va means: "doesn't go". For some reason I think the successful French brand Pschitt wouldn't do so well in English-speaking countries. And a name like Abondi will produce associations for many people with meatballs, which may not be the kind of association you want. Others may think of lifeguards. And existing companies already having that name[8] may raise legal impediments.  --Lambiam 05:22, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Does wikipedia have a list of these marketing failures? Is there a word for them? I have always thought FCUK quite explicit for such a large brand. I have heard of English brands that are rude in other languages, and vice versa. Also I heard of the car Cedric that didn't sell so well; well of course, which man would want to drive a Cedric? What about a term for intentionally using your name differently to originally intended, such as the FTV ads that say "I want to f with you" etc. Sandman30s 12:50, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Although accidents and cultural blunders happen, most of these stories turn out not be true (see for instance this urban legend page) or grossly exaggerated. It is quite common for brand names to change when crossing borders (see, e.g., Snuggle#Internationally), so a mishap is usually not a big deal anyway (see, e.g., Mitsubishi Pajero). I always thought FCUK to be an intentional attention-getting fcuk-up. Of course, the company name of an multinational corporation is less easily changed across borders, but then people usually don't care much about pronounceability (Daimler-Chrysler, Schlumberger, GlaxoSmithKline).  --Lambiam 16:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of Snuggle, a very similar bear-mascot of Mexican extraction pimps white bread to children in my area, under the brand name "Bimbo". :D --TotoBaggins 20:31, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. Those are very good suggestions. Alternating single vowels and consonants would automatically avoid most pitfalls I had imagined (difficult combinations, silent letters, etc.) that wouldn't easily cross the language barrier. I especially like the hint about ending the word with a vowel. I hadn't thought of that, but that is very important. Are there any languages that never start a word with a particular letter? 152.16.59.190 07:54, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Certainly. Spanish very rarely begins a word with Ñ, as far as I know, and Russian very rarely starts a word with Й, and never with Ь or Ъ. (I am sure this is also true of at least one major language that uses the Latin alphabet, but I'm less familiar with them.) Tesseran 08:33, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

No Turkish word starts with a "soft G", written Ğ, one of the letters of the Turkish alphabet.  --Lambiam 15:46, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I would avoid ending with e, too, because of the English "magic e", ambiguity would be introduced (for example, "Adobe", there must be people out there who don't pronounce the e). Capuchin 09:13, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

We have some articles that might help: phonotactics and syllable. Some of this has been said before, p t k b d g m n are common consonants, and i e a o u are common vowels. Sounds made with the tip of the tongue are easy as well; for example, "New Zealand Story" is pronounced only with td sz n l r j. You might want to keep out s or z. BTW, "th" sounds (as in this or thin) are uncommon so they should be avoided. V and w are also problematic in some languages. --Kjoonlee 10:13, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

There's a delightful anecdote by Otto Jespersen where people from around the world are trying to construct a universal language, easily pronounced by everyone. They start with the form skribar for "write". After some back-and-forth about the problems of the letters 'b' and 'v' in Spanish they decide that "skriar" is an easier and more suitable form. Then a Finnish person objects, pointing out that the initial consonant cluster doesn't exist in Finnish and would be simplified, yielding the form "riar". At this point a Chinese representative objects to the letter 'r' and suggests "lial" instead. The 'l' is, in turn, denounced by the Japanese and the final form becomes "ia". The story is the second text here: [9] (written in a proposed international language) Haukur 14:37, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Not a real story, I presume. If some consonant clusters don't usually occur in your language, you can always use epenthesis instead of deletion. --Kjoonlee 15:53, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

A made up story, yes, certainly. Haukur 16:08, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Mentioning epenthesis gives me the idea that the OP might get some ideas by looking into how English words are rendered in katakana, a script designed for much simpler syllable structures. —Tamfang 17:44, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Just call it "mom". I think that's a pretty universal syllable. Gzuckier 14:56, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Not possible in Japanese.  --Lambiam 17:02, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Not possible in Japanese? That's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. Why wouldn't that syllable be possible in Japanese? 152.16.188.107 03:32, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Many (most?) languages have a limited number of phonemes a word can end in. /m/ is not in the end-phoneme inventory of Japanese (/n/ is, though). The same holds for Greek, if I recall correctly. Haukur 13:50, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Need Help with a Romanian word

What does the word Clipe (as in the 3rei Sud Est song "Clipe") mean? Nat Tang ^{ta | co | em} 06:44, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

It means "moments." --Cam 04:01, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

why grammatical gender

Just came from the grammatical gender, couldn't find an answer to my random idle curiosity; why grammatical gender? Assuming for some reason, like just to be difficult, an ancient primitive language wanted to classify words into different groups with different properties, why not just make up two new classes instead of using gender, of all things? how did it happen that somebody looked at a chair and a table and decided 'you know, the chair looks female, and the table looks male'? Gzuckier 14:02, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Grammatical gender is pretty much a division of words (nouns, adjectives, pronouns) into classes. It's a major feature of inflecting languages. The classes don't have to have anything to do with natural gender, but that is the way it has developed in a number of different language families. One theory (particularly positted for Proto-Indo-European) is that there were two classes, animate and inanimate. The former also included natural phenomena, like fire and water, that may be considered 'living'. The latter didn't have a real plural number but a collective plural. This inanimate plural also worked as a singular for abstract nouns. At some point, a feminine gender developed from the inanimate plural, while the old animate became exclusively masculine. This kind of application of noun classes is found in Australian, Caucasian and Niger-Congo languages. — Gareth Hughes 14:34, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

The term 'primitive languages' might be simply meant to imply old, but language, perhaps counter intuitively seems to be one of the things that has become simplified as civilisations have developed. English certainly used to have five cases and was inflected (i.e. different word pronunciation rather than word order was used to change meaning). I think it also had at least two genders. How the uneducated masses coped with a language as grammatically complex as the latin only the scholars new I don't understand? As a native (modern) English speaker the idea of gender seems perculiar, I wonder though if those who speak a language with gender see it as totally normal? Cyta 15:32, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

That's a pretty implausible hypothesis -- that language is always getting simpler -- because how would the complexity have gotten there in the first place? In particular, the book The Unfolding of Language by Guy Deutscher refutes this idea. Languages gain complexity in some places while losing it in others, but people don't tend to notice the increasing complexity because it comes in the form of idioms that they either internalize or ignore. Think of ESL students in 50 years or so trying to learn the grammatical role of "hella", the pronunciation of "pwn3d", or how many times you should say "is" when beginning a sentence with "the thing is is". (Not that these are certain to be lasting features of the English language, but you never know what will be.)

And Latin had lots of cases, yes, but it also had few restrictions on word order. And the scholarly Latin you learn in school or hear in church bears little resemblance to a language people actually spoke.

Finally, of course those who speak a language with gender see it as totally normal. In contrast, you speak a language where the spelling and sound of a word have very little to do with each other, and you think that's normal. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 04:41, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

There's this book called Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things by George Lakoff; if you're interested in grammatical gender I think you'd find it interesting, although I personally think the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis is garbage. --Kjoonlee 15:51, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

For the record, so does Lakoff. — Zerida 21:27, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

on a more general level, human language fundamentally works by grouping things into classes (and sub-classes, sub-sub-classes etc.). First you have "nouns" vs. "verbs" etc., and then you are free to apply various categorizations within the "nouns" category. Such tree structures actually develop because it makes the language easier to learn, not harder. Later, they become fossilized and a nuisance that has to be learned extra, until some lazy new generation drops them altogether (perhaps at the same time introducing new classes). "Gender" is just one instance of this. It appears that one good idea is classing things by sex, since that is one dichotomy very close to our heart so to speak, so that grammatical gender often ends up somehow oriented along the lines of biological sex. But the grammatical category is by no means directly or strongly bound to the biological dichotomy, the relation is fuzzy and more of the nature of a "general idea", the categorization is really a language-internal thing and evolves according to its own set of rules. dab (𒁳) 16:10, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, that may be your private pet theory, but I don't think any professional linguists would subscribe to it.  --Lambiam 16:37, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Noun classes such as gender entail a need for agreement. This adds redundancy, which helps to guard against miscommunication. Gareth Hughes has presented a plausible hypothesis for the emergence of grammatical gender in proto–Indo-European (the ancestor of most of the languages of Europe and India) from a simple set of two noun classes: animate and inanimate. Bantu languages do not have grammatical gender, but they have a system of up to 20 or so noun classes (some of which are paired singular/plural forms) grouping words referring to humans, plants, fruits, animals, inanimate objects, verbal nouns (including abstract concepts), and so on. Marco polo 17:12, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

May I ask why you say "Bantu languages do not have grammatical gender" when noun classes are just that? Just because there are a lot more of them (Xhosa has more than 10 if you count plural classes separately -- which is standard). --196.7.19.250 09:51, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Having nouns divided into multiple classes can help speed up the recognition of words. The technical term for the phenomenon is "gender priming." I can't seem to find a Wikipedia article on the subject, but you if you Google the phrase you can find articles like this one. It seems to be a tradeoff between more work on the part of the speaker (in terms of having to produce adjectives, verbs, or case endings that agree in gender with the noun) vs. more work on the part of the listener (in terms of not having any clues to the noun that's following). Highly inflected languages (such as Russian) place a higher cognitive burden on the speaker, whereas relatively uninflected languages (such as English) place a higher cognitive burden on the listener. Katya 17:41, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

A side point: grammatical gender isn't always so arbitrary. In Arabic, there is at least some kind of system, though it isn't reliable. All I remember about it is that things which occur in pairs (e.g. the eyes) tend to be female, presumably because of the "femine" concept of co-operation. I thought it was a delightful little artistic touch. One day maybe I'll even get to learn the language properly, *sigh* 203.221.126.227 00:42, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

hebrew translation for english word FAITH

good morning!

hi i need the hebrew translation for the english word FAITH , not belief, like for example faith in oneself or faith in God. I need it with and without vowels.

Thank you very much!

Have a nice day :)--Chrissie1210 15:28, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

A very similar question was asked just slighty higher up the page (and asked in a very similar style), here. Lanfear's Bane

Pluralisation question

Hi all. I am putting a form together; I need it to say List the galaxy(s) spotted.

However, I realised the plural of galaxy is galaxies - is what I currently have correct? I don't have room on the form for it to say List the galaxy or galaxies spotted. Thanks muchly. Neil ╦ 15:54, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

How about 'List any galaxies spotted' — it covers the possibility of just one being spotted. — Gareth Hughes 15:56, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

But also implies they may not spot any - they'd only be filling in this form if they'd spotted at least one. Neil ╦ 15:58, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

'List all galaxies spotted.' --LarryMac | Talk 16:05, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

List the [galaxy|galaxies] spotted.? --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 19:42, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Or "List each galaxy spotted". (Are there any spotted galaxies ?) StuRat 22:21, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I think I've seen galaxy/ies or rather the equivalent somewhere or other. 203.221.126.227 00:24, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I like List all galaxies spotted. Thanks LarryMac, and thanks all. Neil ╦ 11:41, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Do titles need initial cap?

For example, maharaja? See some edit war on a few shitty articles. Unnithan, Valiathan etc. 17:14, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

According to our MoS, the answer is, in general, no, unless they are used with a name. E.G. King Louis XVII was king of France. However in the articles you refer to I cannot pass a judgement because I do not clearly understand the nature of these words. For example if one was talking about the clans of Scotland one would (might) write "Since that time the family has been considered Cambells." Here the word Cambell is clearly a proper noun and the word "Cambells" I suppose a collective proper noun in the same way we might write "Founding Fathers". I look forward to more knowledgeable insight on this matter. Rich Farmbrough, 17:39 24 July 2007 (GMT).

As I understand it, titles are capitalized only when they refer to specific ones. For example, "Some generals wanted to overthrow the government, but General Washington talked them out of it." By the way, Farmbrough, the WP:MOS#Titles has “Louis XVI was King of France”. Clarityfiend 17:54, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the difference is when you say "Louis was king fourteen years." — Laura Scudder ☎ 20:47, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

RUSSIAN TRANSLATION? Is this translator worth a darn?

Can you help me ? I need to get someone who is expert in tranlation of english to russian to tell me what this says? thanks ! (its a software translator that has had comments that it is horrible_)

Как дела? Я только задаюсь вопросом, работает ли этот переводчик правильно? Или это производит мусор? Спасибо!

Я мог бы быть в состоянии отправиться в Россию когда-нибудь, но не уверен когда. Стоимость настолько высока, это заставляет меня думать вдвое о прибытии там.

Имейте замечательный день! Да благословит вас Господь для того, чтобы помогать мне, чтобы понять это.

Jd

(Removed indents to make text line up and eliminate unintentional boxes, all for greater clarity, I hope. Bielle 19:57, 24 July 2007 (UTC))

This is what Google translate makes out of it:

How are you? I just wonder whether this translator correct? Or is this garbage? Thank you! I might be able to go to Russia someday, but not sure when. The cost is so high, this makes me think twice about the arrival there. Keep a great day! Yes God bless you for helping me to understand this.

Kind of understandable. Remember, when going to Russia, that the vodka is good, but the meat is rotten.  --Lambiam 21:59, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I think it will be perfectly understandable; it's just a very literal translation, that's all. I'm an English speaker who knows some Russian, and I had no trouble reading the message. Of course, an opinion from a native Russian speaker would be the most valuable. --Reuben 23:48, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

THANKS A LOT !! --TripleBatteryLife 13:53, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah; I don't understand every word of the original, but the translation certainly matches everything I do understand. That's Google? I'm surprised, because it doesn't do that good of a job with French or German or Italian, that I have seen. Gzuckier 14:53, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

grammar checking a sentence

sir could you please check the following sentence for any grammatical mistakes- 'We watched you make us happy throughout the function'61.1.238.108 20:07, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Seems fine to me. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 20:11, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

It's grammatically correct, but it doesn't sound very natural. I'm not sure what it means. Perhaps it would sound better in context. --Reuben 20:22, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it is not clear what the meaning of this sentence is.  --Lambiam 21:50, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

It may mean something like "we all saw that you tried your best to entertain us throughout the function."--K.C. Tang 01:29, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

"Tried your best" suggests that he/she did not quite succeed in making them happy. I agree that the original sentence as written is not natural for an English speaker. Maybe one of the following would work better: "You entertained us throughout the event". ("Function" suggest a very formal and rather joyless occasion. "Event" is more neutral; it suggests the possibility of a good time.) "We enjoyed watching you throughout the event." Marco polo 01:47, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I second the fact that "function" is formal and perhaps joyless. Consider "event" or "celebration" (if it was a celebration). Naming the function would also work, e.g., "reception," "party," "dance," etc. It would also be good to change "We watched...." If the "seeing" was important, "We saw you worked hard to keep us all happy throughout the evening." could be good. If the "seeing" is less important, "We all felt you kept us happy during the graduation." Maybe even, "We were all happy during the event because of you." or "...due to your efforts."  — gogobera (talk) 02:21, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

For clarity, Gogobera's sentences could also be written "We saw that you worked hard..." and "We all felt that you...", though this is less colloquial. Tesseran 05:41, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

July 25

Ignoring Articles In Alphabetical Order

When items in a list are placed in alphabetical order, the article "the" is generally ignored. So, for example, "The Wizard of Oz" would be alphabetized under "W" for "Wizard" as opposed to "T" for "The". First question -- why is this? And, in light of the answer to the first question, please address this second question. Why are subsequent occurrences of the article "the" not ignored? In other words, if you have "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" ... the first "the" is ignored, but the second and the third "the" are not ignored. That is, we do not alphabetize the title as "Lion, Witch, and Wardrobe". What is the reasoning behind this? And, in the age of computers, would not it be easier to simply use the initial "The" when alphabetizing (i.e., a computer program will read the letter "t" and sort accordingly regardless if the initial word is "the" or some other "t" word). Thanks. (JosephASpadaro 04:07, 25 July 2007 (UTC))

The T-section of the list will grow very long and become a list by itself (so what you will actually get is a list within a list, which can be cumbersome), if "The" is not ignored. The subsequent occurrences of "the" would not contribute to this lengthening. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 05:05, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

To be fair, later occurrences would contribute slightly to bunching: for example, "The Lion in Winter", "The Lion King", "The Lion, the Fox, and the Ass", "The Lion, the Lamb, the Man", "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe", "The Lion Vrie". But the effect this has on actual lists is vanishingly small. And as you note, if a list is divided by first letter, the divisions are not affected by this phrase-internal convention. Tesseran 05:51, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

To answer your second question, it certainly would be easier to alphabetize naively. It would also be easier to use fixed-width fonts in single colors on monitors with fixed resolutions; to order numbers as 1, 10, 100, 11, 19, 2, 20; to alphabetize A after z, and characters like é after Z; or even to ban such characters altogether. That is, as long as by "easier" you mean "easier for the person designing the program". But the triumph of the modern computing era has been that we have enough programmer-hours and enough processor cycles that we can instead design programs that are easier for the user. Tesseran 06:18, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

The only thing missing is enough programmer-people who understand what is easy for the user.  --Lambiam 06:52, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I remember a website where the programmer went through the trouble of detecting spaces in the credit card number to issue an error message that spaces weren't allowed. Gee, if you can find the spaces, you can take them out too! I also rail against sites which only give 16 characters to enter the credit card number. Those spaces make it easier to avoid making mistakes typing in one's cc number. Donald Hosek 16:34, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Quite irritating indeed. For sheer perversity, however, no web form can match the voice-driven telephone interfaces some companies force you into. I've spent over an hour trying to figure out how to mispronounce and rearrange my name so that it would be understood by the computer system (it turned out to involve combining different parts in creative ways and then running them all together!), when it would have taken 10 seconds to punch in my record number on the telephone keypad. So sometimes even when the designers make an effort to make things "friendly" instead of doing what's easy, it can backfire severely. --Reuben 04:19, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

July 26

Slats

Glen Cameron Sather, or 'Slats' used to be a tough guy. He earned the nickname 'Slats' because of his gritty style of play. 'Slats' appreciated a good brawl.

Please explain what 'Slats' has got to do with gritty style of play. I know the expression 'hit somebody in the slats' (hit somebody in the ribs). Is this the right explanation?

Sincerely,

Vadim — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.89.88.106 (talk • contribs)

Re:Commas

What is the difference in these two sentences? "...like dogs, cats, wolves and bears" and "...like dogs, cats, wolves, and bears"? Note the comma before "and". I read it somewhere on Wiki that its different, but the article didn't really make it clear. --Zacharycrimsonwolf 14:02, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

It's normal to omit the last comma in a list, the one before the 'and'. But I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. There's no difference in meaning. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 14:09, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

You might want to read Serial comma. However, despite the assertion in that article that the serial comma is used nearly univerally in American English, I was taught to always omit it, and I have been an American for all of my life. --LarryMac | Talk 14:13, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

So have I, and I was always taught to include it. We might have even been docked points at school for omitting it, I can't remember for sure. I always have to remember not to use it when I'm writing in German or translating for a customer who wants British usage. —Angr 15:11, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I have been working professionally as an editor in the United States for 10 years. Serial commas before the last item in a series are a style issue. Whether they are used varies from one publisher to another and from one publication to another. However, the general rule in the United States is that final serial commas are used in books but not in periodicals (newspapers and magazines). Marco polo 15:47, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I was taught to not use it, although I tend to agree that there is no one hard and fast universally applied rule. I try to maintain the usage described on the userbox {{user serial comma:Sometimes}}: do not use it unless the resulting sequence is ambiguous and using it helps disambiguate. My $0.02. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 03:18, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

As Angr points out, it is certainly not used in British English. It seems strange to have it there, when you wouldn't if there were only two items. The other commas are necessary to break up the list. But then there are plenty of things in American English that seem bizarre to me! Cyta 07:32, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

What's bizarre is the fact that another name for the serial comma is the "Oxford comma", considering how disfavored it is in British English. But then OUP also argues for the spellings -ize and -ization, which no one else in Britain would be caught dead using. —Angr 12:02, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeh, I've been taught by my teacher not to use it as well. I've asked her, but she wasn't very sure of it too. Anyway, thanks to you all! Cheers!! --Zacharycrimsonwolf 13:18, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Antonym question

What is the oppsite word for " annoyed" ?

"Pleased" might be used, it depends on the context. --LarryMac | Talk 15:40, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

If it's being used as a verb, perhaps "placated". Clarityfiend 15:53, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, technically, it would probably be "noyed". Gzuckier 19:42, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Speedy delivery of fresh pizza? --Reuben 19:46, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

It's a fallacy to assume that every word has a single, perfectly opposite word. The only unquestionable opposite of "annoyed" is "not annoyed". --TotoBaggins 22:17, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

You're starting to ritate me. Clarityfiend 07:12, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Need help to fully understand Sandra Bullock's speech in German

Hello, in this rare clip [10], Sandra Bullock accepts an award and speaks German. I can understand most of it, but not everything. In particular, my problem iss that I can't recognize the words she's saying on 1.20-1.30 ("Gott sei Dank hat sie mir....") I am NOT asking for a translation in English, the exact words in German is what I would like to have. Thank you very very much, Evilbu 21:35, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I think the next few words are "das [sic] Mentalität vermittelt, bevor sie …" --Cam 23:32, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I seem to hear "anderen Welt" (other world?) in there as well, but I really can't understand the verb she's using?Evilbu 00:46, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

"Und Gott sei Dank, hat sie mir das Mentalität vermittelt, bevor sie selbst in andere Welten entschritten ist." ---Sluzzelin talk 04:55, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, but then what would that mean? What is "entschritten"?

I can't find entschreiten in any of my German dictionaries, but what she's trying to say in highly poetic language is, "Thank God she imparted this mentality to me before she died." —Angr 11:57, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps a bit too poetic in combination with the mistaken gender (das instead of die Mentalität). Literally, entschreiten could be translated as striding away or striding on (into other worlds), I guess. The German prefix ent- can indicate away ("entfliehen", "entkommen") or the beginning of a change of state ("entfalten", "entsprießen"), among other. ---Sluzzelin talk 13:40, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

She quite originally combines existing euphemisms for "do die": there is entschlafen and dahingehen (but I am not aware of any involving schreiten). Entschritten is reminiscent of entglitten another word suggesting a sense of loss, while entschritten itself suggests liberation (but it shouldn't be entschritten + in, it should be Dative + entschritten). If the gender of Mentalität was correct, this could be an original phrase coined by a very competent speaker :)

my suggestion would be: Gott sei es gedankt hat sie mir ihre Gesinnung vermittelt, bevor sie dieser Welt entschritten ist. :)

dab (𒁳) 14:17, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, so her sentence might be incorrect? I think she says "das Mentalität"? But I do think that there is a problem with "Welt" (does she say "im anderen Welt(en)"?Evilbu 15:46, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

July 27

Easier, more important languages for English speakers

I'm not one of them, I just this ask out of curiosity. I have 3 concerns about "easiness", namely grammatical similarities, vocabulary and the "easiness" of finding good learning materials/native speakers. Importance is international importance.

I guess the two following questions would be similar, namely: Which 5/6 languages would fit these criteria? Which 5/6 are the most popular (e.g. in high schools; I don't know the case of, say, the US)? I reckon all would be major European ones, but don't know which. French, German and Spanish may be the most popular trio, but what about the others?--61.92.239.192 01:59, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I can answer your 2nd question. generally the 5 most popular languages in US high schools are... French, Spanish, German, Latin, Italian. I can't think of another language that is popular in high school (maybe Russian?)

As for similarity to English - well, German and other Germanic languages have a lot of etymological similarities with English (for obvious reasons). The grammar of Romance languages is also relatively similar to English. "Easiness" would definitely be Spanish, at least in the US. ugen64 06:45, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Latin seems to be the odd ball. Though I'd not neglect the cultural significance of Latin for someone who wants to learn a lot of languages and about many cultures, Latin is not easy, without any "native" speakers left and without economic importance.--61.92.239.192 13:55, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

In the UK the usual foreign language which is taught in schools is French, with to a lesser extent Spanish, Italian, and German. Linguistically, I suspect the "easiest"/closest foreign language to learn would be Dutch, but this is rarely taught in schools - largely I suspect because the Dutch people are so good at speaking English! In my part of the UK, it was compulsory in my day (35 years ago) to do Welsh for 2 years (I think now it's compulsory to age 16), but that's not an "easy" language for English speakers, it's just the other major native language of the country. -- Arwel (talk) 15:26, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Who/Whom

Hey guys! Usually I can figure out the who/whom thing on my own (that's Latin for you!) but this one has me stumped. Complete the sentence: "Guess ____ I saw on the street today." My mom insists that it's who, while I think that since a) 'Guess' is a verb requiring an object of what you're guessing and b) 'I saw' also needs a direct object, it should properly be whom. I agree that the majority of people would find 'Guess whom I saw" distinctly weird, but just in terms of what's correct... Thanks! СПУТНИК^{CCC P} 02:01, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe you are correct for the reason you say. Of course, "whom" sounds weird in most cases, whether it is correct or not. HYENASTE 02:09, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Grammatically speaking we need "whom", but for your reason b) only, not a), as we can say "Guess who is going to do that" etc. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 04:45, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd say you're prescriptively correct, because "whom" is the object of "I saw", but your Mom is descriptively correct, because most people would in fact say "Guess who I saw". A Google search for the phrases "Guess whom I" and "Guess who I" gives a ratio of 577:364 000 (about 1 "Guess whom I" for every 631 "Guess who I"'s). 05:04, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

The object of "Guess" is not "who", it's the complete noun clause "who I saw on the street today". "Who" is indeed the object of "saw", though. "Whom" is, in my opinion, obsolete; it's just that some people haven't gotten the memo about that yet. --Anonymous, July 27, 2007, 05:25 (UTC).

See also our article on Who (pronoun), which states (among other things): "Whom is falling out of use in informal English (increasingly, especially in American English, in some formal situations as well)."  --Lambiam 05:35, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

You'll be basically correct if you only ever use "whom" after "to", and in every other situation, use "who". Neil ╦ 08:20, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Not really - there are many other constructions where "whom" is correct, e.g. for whom, under whom, with whom. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 08:51, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Suffice it to say that "whom" is both dative and accusative.--K.C. Tang 10:10, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

how do previously isolated groups learn each other's language

Are there any descriptions of how Europeans and Native Americans first learned to communicate with each other? It seems like it would be very hard without one person first knowing both a European and a Native American language. Was it decades before there was a pair of people who could communicate an abstract idea across this language divide? Is there a name for this subject, or a good place for me to read more about it? ike9898 13:40, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

If you can reach the stage where neither is trying to harm the other and both want to communicate, the standard approach in most novels is to start with nouns - point and say the name: man, rock, tree, horse, hand - then to develop action verbs: run, walk, eat, drink - and develop from there. -- SGBailey 13:46, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

French -quiste suffix

Hello. In Quebec, Action Démocratique du Québec supporters are nicknamed "adequistes" in French. Bloc Québécois supporters are nicknamed "bloquistes" in the same language and province. What is with the -quiste French suffix? What are more French nicknames that end with the -quiste suffix and are associated with politics? Thanks in advance. --Mayfare 14:53, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I barely speak French, but I'd say that the suffix is actually -iste (akin to English -ist), and that the said nouns are formed as a-de-qu-iste and bloc-qu-iste (or perhaps as bloc+iste, rendering "qu" to keep /k/ sound)? Duja► 15:21, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Obviously Duja is right, the suffix is -iste (equivalent ot English -ist) and the qu is just part of the root, (ADQ, pronounced /adeku/, and words like bloc finishing with c usually switch to qu if a suffix is added, in order to keep the /k/ sound). Lgriot 15:55, 27 July 2007 (UTC)