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April 29

Ancient Hellenistic cruise/party ship

What is the correct spelling for "Telemago", an ancient Hellenistic cruise/party ship mentioned on the Ancient Discoveries televesion program "Ships", 2005? Hxbuff (talk) 00:40, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I think you mean Thalamegos, which is described here. --Cam (talk) 02:50, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Cantonese Writing

Cantonese writing has a tradition in Cantonese opera. Are there other Chinese languages besides Ancient Chinese that have this kind of tradition?68.148.164.166 (talk) 00:41, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

There are many traditions of Chinese Opera (Sichuan, Suzhou, Beijing, to name a few) which are performed in the local speech, and previously had a manner of writing them down in characters, which has not been continued in some dialects. Suzhou dialect has a manner of writing in characters that is no longer commonly used, but was used in the famous novel 海上花 Haishang Hua. It is very difficult for a modern speaker of Suzhou dialect to read the original text. Is that any help? Steewi (talk) 01:15, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

That helps me unbelievablly! Thank you! Can you list all of them? Thanks!!!68.148.164.166 (talk) 02:28, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

There are as many styles as there are cities in China, but the article Chinese Opera lists many of the main styles, some of which have their own articles. Steewi (talk) 00:11, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Really? Every city has a body of literature, even at least one work? Even just a character on a scrap piece of paper?68.148.164.166 (talk) 01:15, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Not exactly. The major cities have the Chinese opera traditions. But each region (often each county) will have its own folk songs, meant to be sung in their own dialect. There may or may not be an accepted way of writing them down in characters. A good source for local folk songs is the county's xianzhi (县志 county gazette), which often has an example of a folk song in the dialect section. Steewi (talk) 05:48, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

::::::Is there any way to find out what would be considered a major city? And Is there any way to find out if there is an accepted way of writing folk songs down in characters?

Is there any way to find out what would be considered a major city? And Is there any way to find out if there is an accepted way of writing folk songs down in characters?68.148.164.166 (talk) 18:27, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Major city, no. The list in the article gives a good idea of the way things work, opera-wise (mostly by province). The way of writing down folk songs is in no way standardised. When there is an obvious character to use, most people will use the same one, but there are a lot of dialect words for which there has never been a standard character, so people will write them down (if at all) with a homophonous character. However, not everyone will choose the same character. This only happens when people want to write in dialect, which is quite rare in most parts of China. Cantonese is exceptional in having widely accepted dialect characters. Steewi (talk) 23:50, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Excatly: Cantonese is special be cause of Standard Dialect Characters. The reason: Cantonese opera.

When scripts were written for Cantonese opera, the characters were standardized. My question is are there any dialects that had this process, or the like?68.148.164.166 (talk) 00:45, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

latin gerund

My "Teach Yourself Latin" book (very old edition) tells me the Latin gerund has no nominative, then later refers to this very thing, the nominative of the gerund. The example it gives is:

We must pay regard to peace

Paci a nobis serviendum est.

The book is clearly saying that serviendum is a nominative, and moreover, since esse is intransitive, I don't see how it would be correct for serviendum to be in the accusative case. For example, "the man is good" would be something like "Is (or hic?) est bonus" not "Is est bonum". Is it true that the gerund has no nominative, and if so, how does the latin sentence from the book actually play according to the rules? 203.221.126.206 (talk) 05:26, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

It's wrong, if it says that - that is a gerundive, used impersonally. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:27, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Chinese term

Is there a Chinese term 嫡孫 meaning "the eldest son of the eldest son"? DHN (talk) 07:03, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

From the Chinese Wikipedia articles on 嫡庶, 嫡 is a character used to designate the wife of a man, as well as the children of the man with his wife. This is in contrast with 庶, which designates other women with whom the man has sexual relations (such as his concubines) and their children. 嫡子 is a son of a man with his wife. 嫡孫 is a son of a 嫡子 with his wife. 嫡孫 doesn't seem to have implication that the male descendants involved are the eldest among siblings. 嫡长孙 is a term used in the article to refer to the eldest son of the eldest son. --72.78.102.49 (talk) 20:01, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

The BBC is a Quack!

On the BBC News Website and this story in particular, a US air chief criticises Heathrow Airport for basically being a dump. At one point he says:

"If you look at the fabric of the building, if you look at where customers check in - missing light bulbs, duck tape on the floor. I would have to say that Heathrow is in many ways the worst of all the airports that my company flies to in Europe."

Now, while I see numerous examples of poor spelling and grammar on this website every day (plus sentences that seem to end mid-edit), I would like to make sure the spelling of 'duck tape' is correct. I thought it was 'duct tape'. Any ideas?--ChokinBako (talk) 08:10, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Both names/spellings are in common use, and apparently there is some confusion about which one was the original name; see Duct_tape#Etymology. -- Ferkelparade π 08:23, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

The BBC article says duct tape now. HYENASTE 16:38, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. It's worth reading the rest of the duct tape article. Apparently it's useless for sealing ductwork, which would support the "duck" idea. (Not that it's much use on ducks either; "duck" is the material it's made from.)--Shantavira|^{feed me} 17:18, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Not useless; it just doesn't work very well. (The last EL says quite plainly that it is so used, and shouldn't be.)

To add to the confusion, a common brand of duct tape in my part of the world is made by the Duck Products Company. --Sean 19:40, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

There's no way to know from the quote whether the guy actually said "duck tape" or the writer didn't know the correct term. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 21:25, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, that's what I was thinking, to be honest. As 'duct tape' and 'duck tape' sound practically the same when spoken quickly, I wondered whether the BBC journalist just actually didn't know the correct term and chose the latter. I have since read the Wikipedia article and can now see that it's not really an 'error', although I would prefer the term 'duct tape', considering 'duck tape' to be more colloquial, possibly because 'duct' sounds more technical than 'duck' (ducks may disagree). Anyway, the BBC seems to have amended the article now. --ChokinBako (talk) 22:38, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

From what I've seen, "duct tape" is the general term (even though it's not useful on ducts) while "Duck Tape" is a brand name (technically "Duck Brand Duct Tape"). rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 00:30, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Please to read the article as discussed above. 79.66.99.37 (talk) 11:42, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I think we've all read it, thank you. Maybe you should read the discussion 79.66.99.37. --ChokinBako (talk) 16:45, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

If Rspeer had read the article, why add such a gratuitous comment that seems to completely ignore not only the contents of the article but most of the discussion above? 130.88.140.11 (talk) 15:58, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I do apologize, but it was actually my question in the first place and you don't either seem to have read the whole thing. --ChokinBako (talk) 16:44, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Phrase in Ma Baker

Lyrics quote:

she met a man she liked

she thought she'd stay with him

one day he formed with them

they did away with him

What does it mean to form with someone? --KnightMove (talk) 19:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Listen at 1:48 to the rendition here. I think the line is "when he informed on them", which fits. --Sean 19:49, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

These guys had it right --Lisa4edit (talk) 21:01, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

While this makes sense, Googlefight results in 293:24 in favor of the version I wrote... --KnightMove (talk) 05:11, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

"Millions of flies can't err. Eat trash!" :-) I often get that with misprints or errors in dictionaries. All of a sudden everyone from that country misspells or misuses the word. Doesn't make it right. There are cases where the majority wins, but I still think that having a cold is no fun, even if everyone has one. (Preceding comments please to be taken in good humor.)--Lisa4edit (talk) 07:52, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok, now I have listened several times again and you're definitely right. Btw, I was shocked to see how many people think that "she really moved them down". --KnightMove (talk) 09:00, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Simple grammar of English

Does anyone know of a simple grammar of English that can be learned easily by a child of school age? It doesn't have to account for the more advanced and uncommon constructs in English, but simplicity and ease of learning is highly desirable. Ideally the grammar should have only the minimum number of concepts and rules needed to describe the formation of English sentences. --72.78.102.49 (talk) 19:27, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Seidl Grammar 1 (Grammar one). The series goes on up to Grammar four. Oxford University Press. Amazon.co.uk has it. US Amazon doesn't.

(Skip the "Have got" section.)

Also check out these: http://www.funbrain.com http://www.manythings.org/ http://www.wordpower.ws/

For later maybe http://esl.about.com/od/beginningenglish/u/start.htm and http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/ and http://www.nytimes.com/learning/students/ "Schoolage" is a rather broad term. First graders will "ooh" and "aah" at things that will gain a "yuck" or a yawn from teenagers. --Lisa4edit (talk) 20:29, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

My favourite is David Crystal's Rediscover Grammar, which is organised in bite-sized chunks, and illustrated with cartoons as well as diagrams.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:35, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

April 30

how do i say yes or no to another person's sentence

--Animeskeleton (talk) 13:34, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

How do i say yes to another sentence.Like what if a person says,"Do you like this soup,no.Or,Do you not like this tv channel.How do i say no to another sentence.What if a person says ,"Doesn't this dress look beautiful on me?or something like that.Can someone just give me advice or a website on how I can make my answer agree or disagree with their sentence?I just want to understand language a little better.I became more confused with this once I watch Jimmy Neutron when Jimmy asked the teacher,"May I go to the bath room.Then the teacher replied,then Jimmy asked,"May I not go to the bath room."And that's when the teacher looked confused and I became confused with those question type sentences,too.Animeskeleton (talk) 05:06, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not a native English speaker, but AFAIK it's usual to answer in a whole sentence, excluding any ambigousities:

"Doesn't this dress look beautiful on me?" - "Yes, it does!" resp. "No, it doesn't!"

--KnightMove (talk) 05:08, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

PS: In German, the word Doch! is used to negate a negative question. In this case it would mean that the dress does indeed look beautiful on the person. Are words like that also used in other languages? --KnightMove (talk) 05:14, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, in many. In French, to agree with a negative sentence (as in "yes, that dress looks beautiful"), the word "Si" is used, in place of "Oui". Other languages have a completely different set of yes and no words for negative sentences. Steewi (talk) 05:52, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

The main rule, in English as I know it, is that you answer yes if you like it and no if you don't like it, whether the verb like was negated in the question or not. So treat the first question as if it was "Do you like this soup?" and the second like "Do you like this tv channel?" However, where I come from, it is not usual to answer with a single "yes" or "no" even if that answer is completely unambiguous. You say: "Oh yes, I like it. Very refreshing." and "No, I don't like that channel at all. They are a bunch of ultraconservative morons."  --Lambiam 07:18, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

As probably one of the ultraconservative morons (we used to be called unconventional rebels back when I was younger :-) I'd have to say that in areas with high immigrant proportion you run into a serious misunderstanding once or twice and then make VERY SURE to answer in a long sentence next time. If you had grown up with my aunt, a simple yes or no meant your question had overstepped the boundaries and one more irritation would have consequences. With other people it can mean "I don't want to talk." There were/are people who'd answer something like "It doesn't not either." or "It's fine." Which to me always seemed a bit like multiple choice answers. Lisa4edit (talk) 07:42, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

If somebody is asking you that kind of question in conversation, you don't need to worry about giving a simple yes or no answer. For example, appropriate answers might be: "Do you like this soup?" "It's delicious" or "It's a bit salty for me". Or,"Do you not like this tv channel?" "I prefer the other" or "I enjoy it mostly"."Doesn't this dress look beautiful on me?" "You look wonderful" or "It doesn't make the best of you". SaundersW (talk) 09:06, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

In the interests of promoting harmony among couples, it is worth noting that it is never correct to answer the question "Doesn't this dress look beautiful on me?" in the negative. The only acceptable answers are "Yes it does" or possibly something along the lines of "Everything looks beautiful on you, dear". This applies whether the lady in question is wearing Givenchy or a burlap sack. Malcolm XIV (talk) 19:16, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

In the interest of staying together for an extended period: If it really looks horrible say: I prefer the other one but why not wear this when we visit XYZ. Sooner or later she's going to overhear a comment from someone or notice a raised eyebrow and will (usually secretly) blame you for not being honest. Lisa4edit (talk) 09:57, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Try and do something

Hi,
in my language the words for "to" ("å") and for "and" ("og") are often pronounced in similar ways and therefore confused. It is therefore natural to see (erroneous) constructions like "try and do something" instead of "try to do something". However, I seem to have seen similar things (using "and" instead of "to") in English, which I do not get. Any grammatical quirks or nuances in meaning I'm not getting here? Or have I only seen this error once and concluded that this is a mistake that is sometimes made? Thanks! Jørgen (talk) 12:26, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

In the UK at least "to try and" do something is acceptable English. I agree it does not make logical sense, but a google search shows almost as many hits for "to try and" as "to try to". Looking at a couple of sites [1], and [2], I would say that "try and" can be used where you want to avoid interpretation as an imperative. For example a wrestling coach might instruct a student "try to pin me down", whereas if a bully tells someone to leave a seat they might say "just try and make me", i.e. don't try to make me because I am capable of defending my position. -- Q Chris (talk) 12:53, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

English "try to do" and "try and do" mean somewhat different things. The former means to attempt an action with success uncertain. The latter means to do something with the outcome or resulting situation uncertain. Here's someone's blog post on the subject. "Try and" is really only a mistake if "try to" is meant. Paul Davidson (talk) 14:50, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

While that may be correct, popular usage has pretty much made try to do and try and do synonymous. DJ Clayworth (talk) 16:59, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I dont think the semantic analysis above or in the blog are right. People who have written on try to X and try and X find them to be semantically equivalent. The difference is in formality. Quirk et al.'s grammar calls these type of things "pseudo-coordination".

There're differences between try and X and go and X. try and X has the meaning of try, but go and X doesnt have any meaning of go when used in this idiomatic way. For example, my cell phone battery has gone and died on me does not refer to any movement of the battery, pace that blog (cf. how going in my battery is going to die soon also has nothing to do with movement). This go and X has the addition of emotive meaning (exasperation, disapproval, etc.) to the verb in the X position. So, has done that = has gone and done that + emotive meaning. The blogger's example I’ll go and see what episode is on is ambiguous: it could have either the idiomatic interpretation or a nonidiomatic coordinated interpretation. Also, note that some people can say been and gone and X.

A further difference is in the grammar. You can only have try in the general (nonpast) form, that is you cant inflect it as tries, tried, trying. It can only be try, else it loses its idiomatic meaning (but there might be some dialectal variation here...). So, if you want express this idea in the past, your only option is tried to X. For example, we should try to come tomorrow = we should try and come tomorrow = , but we tried to come yesterday cannot rephrased as *we tried and came yesterday. In contrast, go and X can be inflected in the past, etc.

Here are some things from LinguistList: [3], [4], [5], [6] (<= this one has info from other langs), [7], [8] (this ones a query on tries and VERB-s, youll have to search LingList for his summary). – ishwar  (speak) 19:16, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

see also G. Pullum's paper here: osu_wpl_39.pdf starts on p. 228, watch out: it's a big file), and ms_goav.pdf. Also, in one of the LingList postings, there is Dawn Nordquist's paper "Try and: A discourse analysis" which finds that there is a difference in meaning between try and X and try to X (try and X may indicate that the attempt will be more likely to be unsuccessful). An earlier corpus analysis by Age Lind does not find a difference, so you should read both of their reports. It's not that clear to me that there is this difference but I havent seen Nordquist's examples.

Finally, sometimes these are called hendiadys. – ishwar  (speak) 19:57, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Wow. Thanks all! One recent blog post and a paper. I'll look into it, and perhaps launch my own theory that it is all influence from Norwegian... :-) (feel free to post more comments, very interesting reads!) Jørgen (talk) 20:20, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

The dictionaries are all over the place on this, but they all call it a conjunction. I'm not so sure. I think there are words that fall into the cracks between the parts of speech, and this "and" is one of them. American Heritage goes so far as to define it, as "in order to": "Try and do it" means "Try in order to do it" to them. That makes some sense, but I think something is lost in the translation; natural English speech, I guess. A case could be made for this "and" as a variant infinitival particle, which would explain the apparent equivalence of "and" and "to" in the construction. But English gets slipperier the harder you try and grip it. "Try and" is the loose way, the colloquial way, the natural way, and so is frowned upon by Miss Girdlebottom and her besnooded cohorts. "Try to" is comforting to the insecure, sexually repressed schoolteachers of this world because they can point with their rubber-tipped rods and bleat "infinitive" and have an end to it. The bold ones among us dare to use our tongue the way it was meant to be used—casually, easily, blithely. But I digress. Nobody objects to "and" in "come and get it", or the sentiment. --Milkbreath (talk) 20:51, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

In response to ishwar above: You can't say "We tried and came." But you can say: "He tried and put on his pants" and "She always tries and answers the questions." "He's trying and doing the experiment over." I would not use any of these as synonyms for "try to do something" but rather to mean "try doing something" which I would use in more formal use He tried putting on his pants. She always tries answering the questions. He's trying doing the experiment over. This may not be what the linguists come up with, but that's how it's used in this neck of the woods. --Lisa4edit (talk) 10:33, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

There's also the common combination "try and see", which most certainly does not mean "try to see". Paul Davidson (talk) 10:48, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Translation from German to English

I would be most grateful if a user could please translate the following passage from German to English. "Kollinsky: zu jener Zeit haben es die Matrikelbeamten mit der Namensschreibweise nicht so genau genommen, oftmals finden sich fur Vorund Zunamen vom selben Beamten im eigentlichen Eintrag und im dazugehorenden Register verschiedene Schreibweisen. Wir haben sogar schon Falle gehabt, dass Leute damals im Laufe ihres Lebens ihre Unterschrift ohne jede amtliche Legalisierung orthographisch verandert haben. Man muss sich de wohl fur eine Prioritat der Belege entscheiden. Verwandtschaft Reichenfeld/Naschauer ist deshalb schwierig zu eruieren, weil Reichenfeld nicht in Wien geboren wurde. In der Todesanzeige Jacob Naschauers in der "Neuen Freien Presse" wird Moriz R. jedenfalls als "Neffe" angefuhrt. Wieso er im Grab von Ella Naschauer begraben wurde, weiss ich nicht." Thank you. Simonschaim (talk) 12:42, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

"Kollinsky: at that time, the registry officials were not so strict with the spellings of names, so often different spellings can be found for first names and last names written by the same official in the actual entry and the corresponding register. We have even had cases where people back then changed the spelling of their signature over the course of their lives, without any official legalization. A decision will probably have to be made on a priority for the documents. A kinship of the Reichenfelds and Naschauers is therefore difficult to determine because Reichenfeld was not born in Vienna. In Jacob Naschauer's death announcement in the Neue Freie Presse, Moriz R. is described as "nephew" at any rate. Why he was buried in Ella Naschauer's grave, I do not know." You're welcome. —Angr 17:46, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. Simonschaim (talk) 07:18, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Spanish: tener la cabeza como un marmolillo

I looked it up in the dictionary and it said: 'stubborn'. My question is if it is only informal, offensive in Spanish or slightly offensive. 217.168.0.93 (talk) 14:18, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Stubborn is testarudo/a. What you are saying is roughly that "(you) have a head like a small marble" which means it relies on your delivery for its offensiveness. Leftus (talk) 13:26, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I nominate that for the understatement of the day...

-- Danh 63.226.147.160 (talk) 21:28, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

To Leftus: I hadn't known that -illo was a diminutive, and that would be the only way I would see marmolillo meaning small marble. I did find this definition, all in Spanish that gives two meanings for marmolillo. One is a slow or not very smart person. The other is for a stone post used to guard against vehicles passing. So the phrase would be to have a head like a stone post. Your phrase seems to make literal use of the second meaning to imply the first. So it's certainly offensive, but I agree with Leftus, how offensive it is depends on your delivery, as do most insults. It could be very offensive in some contexts, but it's certainly not as strong as some other insults. - Taxman ^Talk 12:55, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

For some reason I read it as -ito and went back to the marble root (which would make some sense if the second definition listed was the first in use and the first definition gained popularity from those devices). I'd wager the etymology is rooted in a similar source. My error not withstanding, it's still a put-down but now requires even better delivery to make it fashionable. Leftus (talk) 20:26, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Not a problem

I was at the supermarket this morning. I chose the stuff I wanted to buy, put it through the checkout, and handed over the money. All was well, until the operator and I came to conclude our short-term relationship. I said "Thanks very much", and she said "Not a problem". Something snapped inside of me. I've heard this a zillion times before, but this time it seemed to make an impact. I didn't actually say anything, but I felt like saying "Who ever suggested there was a problem? Why are you wasting your breath denying the existence of something that I'm sure we would both agree is nonexistent?". What would a grammarian make of this completely useless expression - "Not a problem"? -- JackofOz (talk) 17:14, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

That it's pointless to try to analyze the meaning of formulaic expressions. When someone says to you, "How do you do?", would you answer, "How do I do what?"? —Angr 17:33, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I use "Not a problem" fairly regularly. To me, "You're welcome", which I suppose is what you were expecting, strikes me as formal, almost stuffy. Matt Deres (talk) 20:47, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree that it's pointless to analyse such phrases, quite to the contrary: they can offer insights into the mindsets of entire cultures. But it's not a grammarian's job to analyse it on the level on which it hit you, that's more in the vicinity of semiotics or speech act theory. Dorftrottel (troll) 20:57, April 30, 2008

Possibly some sort of strange coupling with "Sorry to trouble you" in place of "Thank you"? Dismas|^(talk) 23:23, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks very much

I was working at the supermarket this morning. I was operating the checkout when a fellow came in, chose the stuff he wanted to buy, and brought it to the register; I rang it up and he handed over the money. All was well, until the customer and I came to conclude our short-term relationship. He said "Thanks very much", and I said "Not a problem". Something snapped inside of me. I've heard this a zillion times before, but this time it seemed to make an impact. I didn't actually say anything, but I felt like saying "Are you really so thankful? That I simply fulfilled my role of taking your money in this business transaction, for which I am in fact compensated by my employer? Why are you wasting your breath asserting the existence of some great favor I've done you that I'm sure we would both agree is nonexistent?". What would a grammarian make of this completely useless expression - "thanks very much" - in such an inappropriate context? -- GrocerOfOz 18:47, 30 April 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by TotoBaggins (talk • contribs) 18:46, 30 April 2008 [9]

I would say "lighten up" - this is simple social interaction. Would you have rather had him silent? It's called "small talk" and it's part of everyday life. Sandman30s (talk) 21:00, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

• "Thanks very much" or "You're welcome" are much more plausible than "Not a problem". Dorftrottel (warn) 21:09, April 30, 2008

Polite, casual remark=pleasantry. Using a model to analyse it, Transactional Analysis regards it as a one-stroke ritual of social exchange[10] appropriate for a light degree of intimacy, a stereotyped example of social programming. If you take it as anything more than it is – feel put out, persecuted, or anything more personal, and decide to take it out on the other (innocent) person, you're likely "kicking the cat" – Eric Berne might say your "stroke" bank is running low. As per Sandman30s, small talk is a kind of social grease, a custom, and is only meant to be light (even unthinking). Fwiw, Julia Rossi (talk) 23:19, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

The situations where these formulae occur are culturally specific, of course. A visiting French woman (to Australia) commented that she thought it was very amusing that we thanked the bus driver as we got off. She said "Why do you thank him? You've paid for the service, he's getting paid, so he hasn't done anything special." The small talk differences aren't something you notice until you go somewhere else and find that they don't do it quite the same. Steewi (talk) 23:57, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

According to GILLE BERNARD: THE PERFECT GUEST, COMMENT VIVRE CHEZ LES ANGLAIS De Gigord. 1972. the English thank a lot more frequently than the French. SaundersW (talk) 08:03, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

When I was in Germany the cash register operators would grump at you and berate you for things like not moving fast enough, not putting items on the conveyor belt the right way or keeping them from closing up. I was very happy to come back to How are you today? You're welcome. and Have a nice day. Even if the person means nothing of the sort it is nicer. --Lisa4edit (talk) 09:38, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

German supermarket register queues are purposely designed to exude the cosy atmosphere of an antechamber to hell. If I remember correctly, in the early days operators were equipped with three-pronged pitchforks to ensure that articles were ordered alphabetically, by size and thence by colour on the conveyor belt.

The survival of fire breathing dragons in remote areas of Germany is solely due to supermarkets having created a suitable biotope for the previously endangered species.

On the other hand, quoting Goethe´s Götz von Berlichingen to the customers to ensure a prostrate position of subservience has become somewhat less frequent as literacy amongst cash register operators has declined. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 11:43, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I am German, and although I agree that the atmosphere in German shops and supermarkets is usually one of having to be glad to be allowed to shop there, there are other nuances as well. E.g. in my native Bavaria, it is (or at least, was) per silent agreement considered impolite to use those dividers between your wares and the other customer's, which I think is quite nice. Germany may be the most diverse place as far as politeness goes. Dorftrottel (harass) 15:05, May 1, 2008

Here in Berlin, using the dividers is very common and not rude at all. On the other hand, when I first arrived in Berlin, I soon came to believe that German for "May I help you?" was "Willste wat?" —Angr 15:15, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

See Soup Nazi/Soup Kitchen International for an American version of the above. Corvus cornix_talk 21:29, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome

I was in the checkout line at the supermarket today. I was just standing there idly contemplating whether to toss a few chocolate bars in with my purchases, when the strangest thing happened. The cashier gave the guy ahead of me his change, the guy said "Thanks very much" and the cashier replied with "Not a problem". Nothing out of the ordinary, right? Well, the guy has some kind of mini-stroke or something; he started twitching and fuming in the oddest way. I helped him to the floor and when the seizure had passed, he said "Thanks very much" to me, but it was very sarcastic sounding. Why would he say something like "thanks very much" in a sarcastic way? What would a grammarian make of this completely useless expression - "thanks very much" - in such an inappropriate context? Matt Deres (talk) 23:46, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Moral: never shop for groceries in Oz. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:05, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Just imagine what would have happened if the cashier had replied "it's nothing". -- Q Chris (talk) 07:32, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Or, "wha'eva". Aussies... whew. Julia Rossi (talk) 09:13, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I've been away for a few days. However, thank you for the above answers. They were ....... interesting. -- JackofOz (talk) 10:08, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Plurals

Recently I asked a question here and got this response:

Generally, a plural subject requires a plural verb, even if the verb is followed by a singular complement.

What about the sentence: "4 is/are an estimate" compared to "4 and 6 are estimates"? "Are" just sounds wrong in the first one. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 17:40, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

'Is' is correct. '4' is a singular subject. Algebraist 18:19, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Ahh I see. Thanks. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 18:26, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

When I responded to your earlier query, I was just trying to give the simplest answer to your question. Actually, a subject that is plural in form can take a singular verb if it is thought of as a single concept--as in "Peanut butter and jelly makes for a good sandwich." This is called "notional agreement." Algebraist's answer to this question is, however, entirely correct, since in this case "4" is being used as a (singular) numeral rather than a (plural) adjective denoting a denumerable quantity. Deor (talk) 02:52, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Isn't there a dialectal difference across the Atlantic? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 03:29, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but let's not go there unless we have to. Algebraist 13:24, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Translation

Can you tell me what "Ciao Bella" means in English? I believe it is Italian? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.89.160.22 (talk) 18:33, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Take a look at Bella ciao. --Eriastrum (talk) 18:48, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

That's confusing the issue a little, I fear. I usually understand the intended meaning of "Ciao, bella" to be a little closer to the lyrics of this song. Malcolm XIV (talk) 19:09, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Going by how our Italian colleagues use it. It can mean: "Hi there." "Bye." "That's that one down the drain." (e.g. failed experiment) or "Wow!" depending on context. --Lisa4edit (talk) 00:44, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

It means 'hello (or goodbye), beautiful' (spoken to a female).--ChokinBako (talk) 17:08, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

That's the literal translation, but usage is another cup of tea. Of course now that an English example of non-literal use of a word would come in handy, non comes to mind. But if someone says "Ciao Bella" while dumping the remainder of a failed experiment into the trashcan or down the drain, the literal translation just doesn't quite cover it. Similarly when someone includes it in the middle of a rapid-fire string of Italian describing an impressive event, accompanied by descriptive hand gestures, "wow" probably would do it a lot more justice than "hello, beautiful." Got an example: Imagine you used the phrase "Don't go overboard on spending." Now imagine the literal maritime image and what idea a literal translation would present. As a greeting for females "Hello beautiful" has a lot deeper meaning in English than a casual "Ciao Bella." --Lisa4edit (talk) 22:37, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

breton

could you please tell me what the following mean: gwir garantez ne c'hall kemma. and: arc' hant a zeu, arc' hant a ya —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.113.216 (talk) 19:09, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I had the same words on an old brooch and the french translation was : "l'argent vient, l'argent s'en va, l'amour vrai ne change pas", in english it is something like "Money comes, money goes, true love never change"

DDs

Another user and me wonder what, in the context of having teenaged children, the abbreviation "DD" (plural apparently "DDs") could stand for? Our entry at DD doesn't reveal anything likely, and neither did a Google search combining terms like "parents" and "DD". The source is a long-gone user's post here. Dorftrottel (vandalise) 20:45, April 30, 2008

Some context would help, but I've seen it used to mean "Darling (or Dear) Daughter". Analogously, DH = husband, DS = son, etc. --LarryMac | Talk 20:54, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Yep, that's just what I was going to say. —Angr 20:57, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

• Thanks a lot! Yes, that makes sense. Dorftrottel (vandalise) 21:10, April 30, 2008

Do consider, though, that in these sorts of abbreviated commuications it can also mean Darn[ed] or Damn[ed] (with or without a jocular wink either noted or intended). Context helps. -- Deborahjay (talk) 17:57, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Japanese word

What does "まきばで" mean? Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 23:51, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Do you have some context? A link to where it's used? ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 02:22, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

It's used in a Japanese book I have. Please tell me what it means. Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 06:38, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Probably it is "牧場で", "at a/the ranch". --Kusunose 10:13, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

That's what I was thinking, too, but there were a couple other possibilities (as well as the possibility of something completely out of left field). That is the most likely one, though. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 01:33, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

English can't be easily learned.You could quit trying to find an easy way out of this and pick up a language book and read it to the kid.The child can learn a little bit at a time,just like you did.Just try to follow the rules for language ,and you'll do okay.There are multiple rules for different subjects and predicates.Ex:You can't say I is healthy.You can say,I am healthy.You can't say,"You is looking good.You can say,"You are looking good."The point is that there are different rules and there is no easy way out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Animeskeleton (talk • contribs) 13:17, 1 May 2008 (UTC) - EDIT - COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.--ChokinBako (talk) 16:47, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

May 1

Words for counting days

Hi, in Korean, we have special words for counting the number of days. Korean numerals has

1. 하나
2. 둘
3. 셋
4. 넷
5. 다섯
6. 여섯
7. 일곱
8. 여덟
9. 아홉
10. 열

but you can't say *한 일 or *두 일, but you have to say the following instead.

1. 하루
2. 이틀
3. 사흘
4. 나흘
5. 닷새
6. 엿새
7. 이레
8. 여드레
9. 아흐레
10. 열흘

Are there any other languages which use something similar? As a side note, it's fine to say 일일, 이일, 삼일, 사일 using Sino-Korean numerals. --Kjoonlee 08:17, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, can you say 한 날, 두 날, 세 날? I can't determine whether they're wrong or not. --Kjoonlee 08:22, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Japanese is also a bit irregular, but much more transparent than Korean. (1 is hito, but the 1st is tuitati, thought to be from tuki "moon, month" and tati "standing"; most of the rest are based on a day-of-the-month suffix ka with only a few irregularities, such as huta ~ hutu-ka for 2 and hata ~ hatu-ka for 20. Then of course there are systems such as the Mayan, where you get day names that have nothing to do with numbers. Gotta go—I'm not finding anything else off hand. kwami (talk) 18:59, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Thought it should be noted the romanization used above is antiquated and very rarely used anymore. The much more common romanizations of those Japanese words are (in order): tsuitachi, tsuki, tachi, futa, futatsuka, hatachi. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 01:36, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Not sure that this is exactly what you mean, since it is not for days; but in Irish, there are separate numbers to count people. Here is a page with an explanation: Irish morphology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_morphology#Numbers

Evangeline (talk) 08:40, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

negatively phrased questions in court

After reading the section on how to answer yes/no questions above I think I remember lawyers in the OJ Simpson trial being told to rephrase questions like "did you not return to the house", or "were you not there". Here in the UK lawyers seem to love this type of language, though I found a reference telling them not to use this type of phrase when interviewing children[11].

Are these type of phrases now disallowed in the USA (or in some states)?

Also, it seems to me that as well as children these phrases could be difficult for people with English as a second language, as illustrated by poster's difficulty in knowing how to answer them. Would it be a good idea to bar these phrases in the UK too? -- Q Chris (talk) 15:15, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Nah, in the UK we should just bar lawyers. Too much crime is being committed by kids on crack and they all go to young offenders' institutions until they are 18 when they 'suddenly become adults'. I say lock them and their parents up for life, and no need to ask 'did you' or 'did you not' because most of their crap is on CCTV anyway. Lock 'em away and lock 'em away forever!--ChokinBako (talk) 16:52, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

The above is not an answer to the querent´s posting, which had no connection with juvenile delinquency and / or drug related crime.

Chris has asked a question on the validity of a state attorney / defense council asking (ambiguous) negated questions, eg. "Did you not return to the premisses at X:30 PM ...?" where a simple answer of "Yes" / "No" may be interpreted differently by individual jurors. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 22:28, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Check out Leading question Lisa4edit (talk) 22:53, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Multilingual National Anthems?

In Canada, it's very common for the national anthem to be sung in both official languages – not two renditions of the same song, or one verse in one language and another verse in another, but a few lines in French and then in a few in English (or vice versa) until the single verse is finished. Is this unique in the world? Are there any other national anthems that are sung in this code-switching kind of way? WikiJedits (talk) 17:23, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

There isn't any binary switching in it, but the South African anthem switches between five of the eleven national languages (no switching back, however). Zain Ebrahim (talk) 17:38, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Zain! That's the kind of thing I was looking for – I notice the first verse is sung in two languages although the other verses are one language each. WikiJedits (talk) 13:00, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll just note another point about what the Jedi is talking about: the English and French versions of O Canada were written independently and the one is in no way a translation of the other. In fact, the English and French versions of the chorus say approximately opposite things. (We stand on guard for Canada; Canada stands on guard for us.) I wonder if other countries have that! I always thought it was more sensible before about 1980 when only the music was officially the anthem. --Anonymous Canadian, 23:27 UTC, May 1, 2008.

If the British National Anthem was sung in all of the languages of the people who live here, it would be in 254 languages, and would last far too long. All hail the country with the most ethnic diversity on the planet! We just sing it in English (those who actually know the words).--ChokinBako (talk) 23:36, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I suspect that Canada and the United States both have living in them people from all or most of the countries of the world. The UK is not unique in being diverse, nor is it even close to being the most ethnically diverse. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 01:39, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

The tricky thing is that London is possibly the most diverse city in the world (I've seen it reasonably claimed), but London is not The UK, despite media impressions to the contrary. 79.66.2.176 (talk) 05:02, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd suspect that New York City is at least as diverse as London. Los Angeles would be right up there, too. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 06:03, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Hard to compare, since each page looks at demographics slightly differently. London claims 300 languages, and "more than 50 non-indigenous communities which have a population of more than 10,000". Foreign-born population is 31%. Los Angeles is "home to people from more than 140 countries speaking at least 224 different identified languages". New York is less specific, but mentions that 20.4% are foreign born. So London remains hot favourite for "most ethnically diverse city" so far. Gwinva (talk) 06:24, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

"According to a 2004 estimate, 20.4% of the population is foreign-born." In New York, according to our article. In London in 2006, 31% of the population was foreign born. I'd recommend reading the demographics sections of those articles; they're interesting. 79.66.2.176 (talk) 06:12, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I think Toronto might be able to beat some if not all: 49 percent of the pop are foreign born, 43 percent are from a visible minority. nat.utoronto 06:39, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Demographics of Toronto would support this. Gwinva (talk) 06:57, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

As a matter of interest does Toronto have a problem with "extreme national" groups, like the BNP in London? I here a lot about racism in the UK, USA, and Australia but not much from Canada. -- Q Chris (talk) 07:57, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

What does any of this have to do with national anthems? Zain Ebrahim (talk) 11:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

In any city that size, there's bound to be some of that mindset, but I can't recall any notable or widespread incidences of that kind of thing. Labels such as "most multicultural" or "most diverse" are always going to be open for debate because there are so many ways to look at it. Matt Deres (talk) 13:56, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Also the New Zealand anthem has both English and Maori verses. --antilived^{T | C | G} 09:48, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

May 2

Writing numbers

Why do some writers of some documents (and some Wikipedia articles too) put a number followed by writing out that number in words or vice-versa? For example: "There are 7 (seven) days in a week" or "I have four (4) fingers on my hand". Astronaut (talk) 00:23, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe spelling it out that way is for security, as the reader normally can't tell if there's a typo in a number. But if it's already spelled out, I don't see any point to adding the numerals. kwami (talk) 00:44, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Well I could imagine that something that is security or safety critical might want to spell out numbers to reduce the likelyhood of error (eg. "The warhead is held in place by sixteen retaining bolts"). Astronaut (talk) 01:02, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but then why add "(16)" to it? Unless that helps people who are skim reading the manual? kwami (talk) 01:37, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

The two forms of the number confirm each other. It's easy to mistype a digit or and it's also surprisingly easy to leave out a whole word. If you see "sixteen (17)" or "sixteen (16,000)" then you know something's wrong. (In the first case probably 16 is meant; in the second case probably 16,000; but the point is that in either case you'll ask for the number to be corrected.)

In my experience the most common type of document where this is done is a check whenever it is handwritten or typed rather than computer-printed; see the examples in that article. Customs in other countries may be different. --Anonymous, 04:10 UTC, May 2, 2008.

I can't think of any reason to do this in a Wikipedia article, but perhaps if you can point us to an example, we can rationalize it.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:08, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

As far as cheques go it is for two reasons, to prevent errors and to prevent fraud. If you just write £50 quickly it could look like £30, and some people's 4's and 9's can be confusing. Similarly if I just write "Fifty pounds" in a quick scrawl it could look line "Fifteen pounds". Writing both serves as a quick check that both have been read correctly. Also, if a forger wants to change a value they have to change it in two places. -- Q Chris (talk) 08:02, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Yep. The problem is worse when writing in Chinese, but Chinese numerals has details on the solution. --Kjoonlee 08:58, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

This question came from this edit I made yesterday. I couldn't fathom a good reason for anyone to write "eight" and "8" in that article, and it got me thinking that I had seen it in several places elsewhere (including on Wikipedia a long while ago). Personally, in normal writing I tend to write small numbers (up to sixteen perhaps) in words because I think it looks better on the page, but use numerals for bigger values. Astronaut (talk) 18:51, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

...use numerals for bigger values. And some poor sod has to change all your dots into commas and vice versa to make it work in their computer system. Lisa4edit (talk) 08:14, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

...my dots... Why do you think I would use dots for anything other than a decimal point? Astronaut (talk) 13:00, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

You may be using them for decimal points, but if the aforementioned "poor sod" works at a company in lets say Europe , then your numbers will have to be converted before they can be entered in their tables or publications. Mostly that is done by software these days, but there are cases where it's still done manually. E.g. when the internet was sill a lot younger banks that pulled data off "Reuters" had to dedicate one of their systems to US setting "." and then convert the data to "," before using it. (OR, done that. :-) Lisa4edit (talk) 08:53, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned but it is very common, almost obligatory, to write numbers like this in legal documents. This is to prevent any doubt and possibility of alteration. It seems a bit pointless to do this online though; might be just force of habit with certain editors I guess. Sandman30s (talk) 22:04, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Can I person get a high school diploma if I take a placement test

I failed,and I just want to know if I can get a high school diploma if I take a placement test?In August 2008,I will study to go to the twelth grade.Then I plan to take the placement test in March 2008,go to high school without failing in August 2009,finish high school in May 28, 2010, and get a high school diploma.I live in Louisiana,and my mom said that the placement test in Louisiana is for people who want a GED ,and that I can't take it in New Iberia.She also said that if I go to St.Martinville to take the placement test that I wouldn't be allowed in the right grade that I am supposed to be in after I take the placement test in St.Martinville and go to school in NewIberia.Is she lying?I want to get out of school ASAP.My sister took the placement test and I'm not sure if she will get a GED or highschool diploma.I also noticed that there are no pages about placement tests in wikipedia.I know it will take a long time.I want to get a high paying animator job when I get out of school. --Animeskeleton (talk) 01:47, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Googling found this site which might help you but I can't really help with the vagaries of the LA education system. However, if you want to drop out and quit school ASAP, you could do that. BUT, unless you really want a low grade McJob, I suggest you stay at school and at least get your diploma. If you want to go on to a high paying career as an animator, you might be lucky and work you way up with just a high school diploma, but in all honestly you will probably need a degree to progress quickly. Astronaut (talk) 03:28, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Also could you book some time with the school advisor/counsellor? – to talk about the steps you need to take or know about, for how to get from where you're at to where you want to be (in animation). Best, Julia Rossi (talk) 09:51, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Crocodile wife

What is a "crocodile wife"?--Shantavira|^{feed me} 11:48, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

No one seems to know. —Angr 15:33, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

It's undoubtedly from folklore, and it rings a bell. I managed to find reference to a folk tale from Timor involving a "crocodile wife" ["Literary Masks and Metaphysical Truths: Intimations from Timor" by David Hicks in American Anthropologist, New Series, Vol. 90, No. 4 (Dec., 1988), pp. 807-817, Publisher: Blackwell Publishing on behalf of the American Anthropological Association.] I can't say that this is the tale I'm thinking of, but I wouldn't be surprised to find a similar tale anyplace there are crocodiles. In this tale, a man fishing in a river is invited by a lady croc to come down to the river bottom and inspect her riches. He agrees, and she takes him there on her back. He stays dry throughout. She begs him to sleep with her by day, and if he will she will share her riches with him. He agrees, and she takes him back up. The man sleeps with his crocodile wife by day and with his human wife by night until the human wife gets suspicious and follows him to the river. The crocodile wife sees her and kills the man. --Milkbreath (talk) 16:30, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

http://www.indiaparenting.com/stories/panchatantra/panch001.shtml may be the reference, particularly the last line. I don't think he liked Charles. --Lisa4edit (talk) 08:08, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Both those stories are very interesting, thank you. Who needs Yahoo answers?--Shantavira|^{feed me} 12:11, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Is this grammatically correct?

"You, sir, are offending me odiferiously." Meaning he stinks. Is there another way to say it? --12.33.211.29 (talk) 19:57, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I think I better word would be "olfactorally", but although I use the word from time to time I can't seem to find a definition online. 206.252.74.48 (talk) 20:43, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

(ec) If you go to OneLook and enter a word, and the only hit you get is from either Wiktionary or Webster's New Millennium Dictionary of English, Preview Edition (v 0.9.7), it's a mistake and not a word. The word is "odoriferous". Sure, that is one way of saying it, perhaps the most Fieldsian way in the world, and there are countless other ways. --Milkbreath (talk) 20:48, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

You stink? Clarityfiend (talk) 02:22, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

odiferously has a bit more success in the googling, but odiferous is a very old word. It is indeed occasionally used as a humorous euphemism to say that "something stinks" but you would not use "such language". You also indicate that you are educated enough to use high level vocabulary (i.e. words considered obsolete). So in a social context it doubles your superiority. That doesn't happen in print that often and there are many other options for saying that. The adverbial form is used even more rarely. It's sort of like starting a request off with "May I trouble you, dear lady.." I'd say use this sparingly and don't really expect your opposite to understand the vocabulary. From context they will probably gather that you are not giving them praise, though. Lisa4edit (talk) 08:00, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Odoriferous was used of the character "Lonely" in Callan. My mac's popup dictionary gives: ORIGIN late Middle English : from Latin odorifer ‘odor-bearing’ + -ous, odiferous as a variant spelling; then there's odorous. Synonym "fragrant" but since old, used humorously for "pong" or stink. How you get the message across might take another approach completely. You sir, sounds Dickensian. Maybe Clarityfield's statement can be put as a question like, Do you know that... with *hand over nose, one hand waving*. Or, there's a strong smell around you, what is it? (If it's about an actual smell. If you don't like the person, then take your pick.) Julia Rossi (talk) 10:05, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Map translation

Hi, I found this text on an old map, and am interested as to what it means. It is dated 1531

ORONTIVS F. DELPHI. ad Lectorem. OFFERIMVS TIBI , CANDID Lector, univerfam orbis terrarum defcriptioé, iuxta recemium Geographorum ac Hydrograpo rum mentem, feruatatum Aequatoris, tumpa, rallelorum ad eos que ex centris proportione, geminacordis humaniformula in plano coexten, fam: quarum laeua borealom, dextra uerodu, firalem Mundi partem complecitur. Tuigitur munufculum boe liberaliier excipito: habetoque gratias Chrifria 10 VVechelo, cuius favore [unknown], empenfio bec tibi commun rauimus, Vale. 1531. Menfe lulio.

Sorry If not everything is spelled correctly, it was difficult to read and the lettering was in a different written style then I am used to. There was a character that looked like this: ∫ I believed it to be an f. After doing some searching, it is probably a lengthened "s," although there are other s characters that look like s. Mac Davis (talk) 22:14, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Yep, if it looks like an "f" without a crossbar it's a long s. —Angr 22:47, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

What part of the world is shown on the map? Astronaut (talk) 00:43, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Here is a scan of the map [12] Thanks :) Mac Davis (talk) 00:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

So it's the whole world, including the parts not then known; the north pole (left) and south pole (right) are the places where the lines converge. The title says "New and Integral Map of the Universal Globe". Now the text we're asked about begins with "Orontius F(inneaus) Delph. to the reader", but I don't know what the "Delph." bit is, as it doesn't seem to be part of his name. Oh, or maybe that's not DELPH but DEI. PH., some sort of God reference, but I don't know what PH would be.

After that it says "We offer you, honorable reader, a description of the universal globe of the earth" (the word I'm glossing as "honorable" literally means "clear white"). After that is something about "next to" and "recent" and "the minds of the geographers and hydrographers", but I can't put it together exactly. The text goes on to mention the equator and parallels and the plane projection in the shape of a human heart, and I'll stop at this point and let someone else who might actually have a dictionary at hand improve it. Oh, the last two lines say "Goodbye, July 1531." --Anonymous, 03:20 UTC, May 3, 2008.

Text:

ORONTIUS F. DELPH. ad Lectorem. OFFERIMUS TIBI, CANDIDE Lector, universam orbis terrarum descriptionem, iuxta recentium Geographorum ac Hydrographorum mentem, servata tum Aequatoris, tum parallelorum ad eas quae ex centris proportione, gemina cordis humani formula in plano coextensam: quarum laeva borealem, dextra vero australem Mundi partem complectitur. Tu igitur munusculum hoc liberaliter excipito: habetoque gratias Christiano Wechelo, cuis favore & impensis haec tibi communicavimus. Vale. 1531. Mense Iulio.

Translation:

Oronce Finé of the Dauphiné to the reader: I offer to you, honest reader, a representation of the entire world according to the understanding of modern geographers and hydrographers, with the proportion of both the equator and the latitudes preserved with respect to the things away from the poles, laid out on a plane in the twinned form of a human heart; of which the left one comprises the northern part of the earth, and the right one the southern part. Therefore, receive this small gift kindly; and thank Christian Wechel, by whose good will and at whose expense I have shared it with you. Farewell. 1531, in the month of July.

(Christian Wechel was a printer in Paris, who published the map.) Deor (talk) 15:25, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

International gesture for money

The gesture of rubbing the tips of the thumb and fingers together to signify money exists in Britain, Italy, and probably the Czech Republic. What other countries is its meaning known in? How did its meaning spread between countries? 80.2.197.130 (talk) 22:15, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

It's known in the U.S., and when I've used it in Germany, people interpreted it correctly, though I can't promise I've seen Germans actively use it themselves. —Angr 22:46, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I've seen the same gesture while on holiday in Egypt accompnied by a request for "baksheesh". Astronaut (talk) 23:17, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I think I've seen it used in southeast asia and Japan as well. Mac Davis (talk) 00:54, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

In Germany it requires context. It could be used to indicate things that are brittle or run through your fingers, particularly when followed by a movement towards the same shoulder. If you aren't careful with hand position it could be mistaken for "salt". Usually context makes things obvious. --Lisa4edit (talk) 07:40, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Map translation 2

[smudged out] Romae sitvs cvm iis qvae adhvc conspicivntvr veter monvment religviis pyrrho liggorioneap invent

Is this Latin? The map is dated 1570. Mac Davis (talk) 22:24, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it's Latin, although "religviis" should be "reliqviis", and "liggorioneap" is definitely wrong (I can't begin to imagine what it might actually be), and I don't think "invent" is a complete word. Except for the ones in "veter" and "invent", the "v"s would normally be written "u" in standardized spelling today. Do you have a scan of the map? —Angr 22:44, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

"pyrrho liggorioneap" probably somehow refers to Pirro Ligorio. ---Sluzzelin talk 00:50, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Here is a scan of the map[13] Mac Davis (talk) 00:53, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, the first word should be VRBIS, so the first part of the text is something like "Site of the city of Rome with what can be seen around it". The next bit is about some sort of monuments and I'm guessing that that word means reliquaries. On the last bit, Neap. is short for Neapolis, so it's "Pirro Ligorio of Naples"; and the last word is cognate to "invented" and basically means "found", but here it must mean that Ligorio drew the map. --Anonymous, 03:26 UTC, May 3, 2008.

Text (spelled with the modern u/v distinction):

URBIS ROMAE SITUS CUM IIS QUAE ADHUC CONSPICIUNTUR VETER[UM] MONUMENT[ORUM] RELIQUIIS

PYRRHO LIGORIO NEAP[OLITANO] INVENT[US]

ROMAE: MDLXX

Translation:

The Site of the City of Rome, with Those Remains of Ancient Monuments Which Are Still to Be Seen

Produced by Pirro Ligorio of Naples

At Rome, 1570

Deor (talk) 15:50, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

May 3

Wood

So, I have a hyphenated last name. The first half is Swedish. The second half is English.

I would like to translate the English half, Wood, into Swedish, so that I can jam that on to the original spelling of the Swedish half of my last name to create a scary compound name.

So how would you translate the last name "Wood" into Swedish? 138.192.86.254 (talk) 04:43, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

You could use "qvist", which means twig, and is a common suffix in Swedish last names. (Although "wood" itself has the cognate "ved".) Adam Bishop (talk) 08:16, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

There's also "skog" which means forrest, which is also a Swedish surname. --Kjoonlee 08:03, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Twice

In the UK what has happened to the word 'twice'. The young never use it preferring to say 'two times', why is this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Artjo (talk • contribs) 07:00, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

My guess would be it's going the same way as "thrice". It will become obsolete some when in the future. --Lisa4edit (talk) 07:35, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I guess this means I'm no longer young. But then I use 'thrice' regularly, so maybe I'm just odd. Algebraist 11:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

The synonym for "no longer young" is not "odd", unless this is a Freudian typo. Having attained certain statistical improbabilities myself, I have concluded that "once " is a useful term, "twice" is once to often and "thrice" is a proof of senile compulsive behaviour. There are very few things which bear repeating. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 22:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Except another bear perhaps?--Artjo (talk) 06:41, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

And the "o" in "too often"? *ducks and runs* SaundersW (talk) 09:22, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

If medical advice was permitted, you should have suggested orthographic totelage tootelage twotelage tutelage twice or even thrice a week. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 10:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Orthographics? Heaven forfend! That spells discomfort and woe! SaundersW (talk) 16:27, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd enjoy another beer thrice doktorb _words^deeds 09:55, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm having trouble imagining how one would drink the same beer thrice. 206.252.74.48 (talk) 13:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I read somewhere that the word thrice is still commonly used by speakers of Pakistani English. Jack^(Lumber) 15:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

"Alter Strom" or "Alte Strom" ("Old River") or both in the English Wikipedia?

The discussion is at WT:MoS#Terms from foreign languages. This is a river that runs through the Baltic sea resort of Warnemünde. Germans say "Alter Strom" in the title of their Wikipedia entry, but would almost never use it without the definite article in a sentence, and then it inflects (in the nominative) to "Der Alte Strom". The editor is asking: do we always use "Alte", always use "Alter", or switch back and forth like the Germans do, when writing in the English Wikipedia? - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 13:31, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

This is precisely what I was looking for when I asked a question last February, and I eagerly await answers! ---Sluzzelin talk 13:51, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I looked in The Chicago Manual of Style, fifteenth edition, and no help. We hardly ever inflect stuff, and we don't even know that's what we did when we do. You can't flip-flop between "Alte" and "Alter". That's not English, and nobody would know what the heck was going on. I think you should stick with "Alte Strom", because English speakers don't care about our problem here, it's one letter shorter, and German speakers will feel better reading the English version which will use the name in the nominative more often than not, I suppose. Also, the definite article is practically tacit: our article title "English Channel", for example, really means "the English Channel". For my part, I'm aware of the German word in the form "Alte" from Konrad Adenauer --Milkbreath (talk) 14:15, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

English normally just borrows the nominative for names and uses it everywhere. For example, Jodocus Hondius signed his maps Jodoco Hondio, but we would always use Jodocus Hondius in English, not switch between the two depending on grammatical case. Though I suppose we might borrow a different form if it's somehow more prominent—for example in the linked previous discussion of newspapers, English would just borrow whatever form was in big letters at the top of the front page. --Delirium (talk) 15:43, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

"Use the nominative" fails to address the question of "Alte Strom" (nominative form if preceded by definite article) or "Alter Strom" (nominative with no article). The caption I edited actually referred to "The Alten Strom" and I changed it to "The Alte Strom". The article on Warnemünde on German Wikipedia uses all four cases at various points and both of these two nominative forms. Michael Hardy (talk) 16:38, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Call it Alter Strom in English. Even call it "the Alter Strom" in English. German adjectives only take weak inflection after the German definite article. —Angr 17:15, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, right; my apologies. In this particular case, my experience is that there isn't really much of a consistent rule. To pick a semi-random example, you can find both Christliches Jugenddorfwerk Deutschlands and Christliche Jugenddorfwerk Deutschlands in mainstream English sources, about equally often. In other cases and on Wikipedia, strong inflection might be a bit more common; for example, English uses of Allgemeiner Studierendenausschuss outnumber Allgemeine Studierendenausschuss by about 10:1. --Delirium (talk) 17:18, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Seeking Burmese Language Contributors

Hi

It's really nice to finally read some articles in written in Burmese on Wikipedia - great work!

I'm a media and communications researcher from Australia, and at the moment I'm researching the Burmese language and globalisation. I'd really like to talk to the Burmese contributors to Wikipedia, to ask them about the possibilities and challenges faced in developing these kinds of resources and programs in Burmese.

Look forward to speaking to you soon,

Ko Zaw —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kozawhtet (talk • contribs) 18:39, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

There is a Burmese language Wikipedia, with more than 300 registered users. Here on the English Wikipedia, these eight users have declared themselves native Burmese speakers. Algebraist 18:50, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

to test reading habits

suggest some questions to test the habbit of reading english books —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.248.162 (talk) 18:48, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Tolkien ? --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:26, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

No, that would be the hobbit of reading English books. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 22:15, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

LOL doktorb _words^deeds 12:23, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Depends on which reading skill you are trying to test. Leftus (talk) 22:02, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand the purpose of the test. Are you trying to devise a test to see if someone taking the test is in the habit of reading books? I would imagine that very simple questions like "who are your two favorite authors, and why?", "what are the last three books you read, and what were they about?" and "what new book are you looking forward to reading next, and who is it by?" would give you at least some idea of whether the person taking the test ever reads any books at all. Not that a reasonably educated person couldn't fake his way through this test, but at least it would probably indicate whether the person taking the test has any knowledge of and experience with literature. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 19:18, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the OP tried posting a follow up question in wrong place. It was removed. I didn't really understand what he/she meant - something about direct vs indirect questions. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 20:50, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Maybe the OP / original poster, 202.88.248.162, could rephrase the question in more detail. I think we all don´t really know what you want to know. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:41, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Midwestern Dialect

I've looked for an article and can't find it. Is there an article on here on the Midwestern Dialect of the United States. I guess it would be more specifically the Northern Midwestern Dialect (think northwest Ohio). Not only is that what I speak, but I just read something that mentioned news broadcasters for national US news are often chosen if this is their dialect or they are taught to speak it. Another thing I read that it was the one English dialect with no accent, but I find that hard to believe. Thanks! §hep • ¡Talk to me! 23:46, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Try North American English regional phonology, General American, and Inland Northern American English, for a start. The WP articles on U.S. dialects aren't organized very well. Deor (talk) 23:54, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, that's what I was looking for. If anyone is curious I came across this as well: Midwest#Linguistic_characteristics. §hep • ¡Talk to me! 23:59, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

What does "no accent" mean? Isn't that a relative thing? Michael Hardy (talk) 01:55, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

To a point I guess it has to be relative. But thinking it through, all the dialects, Midwestern has to be the most subtle of dialects. You have the southern "drawl" or "twang" that is the easiest to pick out. You can almost always tell if someone is from Philly or Chicago by the way they speak. Yet, anything leaning either way on the issue is completely debatable from both angles. §hep • ¡Talk to me! 03:55, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

In linguistics we say "everybody has an accent." If you look at it from an extreme point of view, you might even say everybody has a dialect, the idiolect. --Kjoonlee 08:06, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

May 4

I don't have an accent! Do I?

At my work we had an argument. I believe I don't have an accent, I think I talk "right". Southerners have their "drawl". My co-workers are convinced everyone has an accent. When I talk about a "roof" I say "ruf". This is not an accent. When I say "proof' I say Proof not "pruf". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jue2 (talk • contribs) 08:05, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

See my answer to the question above for 3 May 2008, please. --Kjoonlee 08:08, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

You have an accent. Everybody does. See Accent (linguistics). Note the bit saying: "The concept of a person having "no accent" is meaningless..." Pfly (talk) 08:11, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

"In linguistics, an accent is a manner of pronunciation of a language." But I pronunciate thing the way they are suppose to —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jue2 (talk • contribs) 08:14, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

But if you think about it, "the way they are supposed to be pronounced" is just a human convention. There's nothing wrong or right about pronouncing trap, bath, cot, caught, merry, Mary, marry, roof or nuclear the way you do. --Kjoonlee 08:23, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

So your saying what people say is the right way isn't necessary the right way. Anybody would agree that calling a roof a ruf is incorrect. There's got to be a point where everyone agrees that's the correct way to pronounce a word, therefore they don't have an accent. Does that make sense? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jue2 (talk • contribs) 08:27, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

There are two issues you're confusing here: having an accent, and having a standard accent. As given above, the definition of "accent" is "a manner of pronunciation of a language". You cannot speak without an accent, because you can't speak without pronouncing the language you're speaking. Now, of all the possible accents in any given language, only some of them are considered "standard". If you pronounce words the way most educated people in your society pronounce them, the way schoolteachers tell you you ought to pronounce them, you can be said to have a prescriptively "standard" accent, but that's an accent too. In England, the standard educated accent (called "RP" for Received Pronunciation) is fairly well defined (although there's some variation within it), but in American English there's actually a lot of variation within what's called General American (so called, ironically enough more by British linguists than by American ones). In America, some people pronounce "cot" and "caught" the same, and some people pronounce them differently, but both variants still fall within the scope of a "standard" educated American accent. The same goes for "whine" and "wine": most people pronounce them the same, but some people pronounce them differently, and both versions can be found within "standard" educated American English. As for "roof", it's probably still true that pronouncing it with the vowel of "goose" is considered "better" or "more educated" (by criteria that have nothing to do with linguistics!), but the pronunciation using the vowel of "foot" is gaining ground, also among educated people, and will probably be "standard" alongside the other pronunciation within 50 years or so. So if your co-workers give you grief for pronouncing "roof" with the "foot" vowel, tell them you're just on the cutting edge of a linguistic innovation that is on its way toward becoming standard. (But they are right that everyone has an accent!) —Angr 11:33, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Since you are an American, of course you have an accent. An American accent. Pretty obvious, I'd have thought. Malcolm XIV (talk) 11:57, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

"A dialect (from the Greek word διάλεκτος, dialektos) is a variety of a language that is characteristic of a particular group of the language's speakers" Does that mean a southern drawl is a dialect and not an accent? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.215.247.114 (talk) 20:33, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

No, it means Southern American English is a dialect, not an accent, because it involves not just matters of pronunciation but also matters of syntax (like the "fixin' to" and "might could" constructions) and vocabulary (like calling any soft drink a "Coke" or calling tennis shoes "tennies"). —Angr 22:22, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Concerning "whine" and "wine", I've heard that most people in England today pronounce "whine" and "wine" identically, and people in Wales pronounce them differently and think the English are saying in wrong even though the language is called "English". Michael Hardy (talk) 21:12, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Your last clause is a non sequitur. As for the rest, I don't know about Wales, but certainly in Scotland and Ireland, they're pronounced differently. —Angr 22:22, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

It boggles the mind to see that some people have never worked out the idea that, "Gee, since I think English-speakers in other places have accents, they must think I have an accent too." Strad (talk) 23:40, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Here's a tip; record your own voice and compare your voice to some accents your are aware of. Either that or speak with a forigner and ask them if they can understand them clearly. I've done both and came to realise that I didn't just have a southern England accent, but actually quite a strong accent; so strong that I'm told when I speak French, it comes out with such a strong English accent it is nearly incomprehensible (no, the words are generally correct and in the right order too!) Astronaut (talk) 00:05, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

What's the difference between an accent and dialect?70.215.139.16 (talk) 00:29, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

The article on dialect puts it this way: "A dialect is distinguished by its vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation (phonology, including prosody). Where a distinction can be made only in terms of pronunciation, the term 'accent' is appropriate, not dialect." - Eron^Talk 00:34, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Your comments make me think of the major marker for Northern versus Southern English - the long versus short "a". As a northerner I pronounce words like "bath" and "castle" with a short "a"; ie as they are written. My southern friends say something more like "barth" and "carstle", and as an American you may well say something more akin to "bairth" and "cairstle". You'll find lots of people who will swear that theirs is the "right" pronunciation, but the only difference is the current status accorded to each variant. The fashion for received pronunciation may have once have dictated that you had to install a barth in your carstle if you wanted a job reading the BBC news, but it doesn't mean that BBC newsreaders had no accent and the rest of us did. The problem lies in the odd (and ultimately offensive) notion that there's something low-status about having "an accent". The way we each speak our language is influenced by all sorts of historical, geographical and social factors, and no variant is intrinsically more definitive than any other. What is "standard" today may well be "non-standard" next week. Go mend your caisrtle ruf, take a long hot bairth, and raise a glarse of 80 pruf. Vive la différence! --Karenjc 08:40, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Phonologically speaking, most North American dialects have in bath and castle the vowel universally known as the "short A"--just like Northern English English. However, the phonetic value of this vowel may vary considerably--diphthongal realizations like [ɛə] or [eə] (yep, similar to British air) being commonly associated with American English by British speakers. Not everybody in the U.S. speakes this way, however. Speakers in and around New York City and Philadelphia may have [ɛə] or [eə] in bath but plain ol' [æ] in trap. All that aside, I guess it's safe to assume that this vowel is considerably longer, more "drawn-out" in North America than it is in the British Isles. In some areas of the U.S. you may hear girls saying my dad as [maɪ dɪeɛæad]. Jack^(Lumber) 15:47, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

A quiphthong! — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 18:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

E.g. [14] at 02:45. Jack^(Lumber) 19:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

A quiff-thong? Ouch! SaundersW (talk) 21:28, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

May 5

Wiping floors

What's the usual term for an item used for wiping floors? Is it a

• floor rag (floor-rag)
• floor towel (floor-towel)
• floor wipe (floor-wipe)

or something else? I don't mean a mop, for example, but a towel-like piece of fabric. Thanks. -91.155.58.242 (talk) 15:35, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

As a Brit (origin south-east England), I call it a floor-cloth. SaundersW (talk) 16:20, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

(USA, Middle Atlantic) I wouldn't say that there is anything like a "term" for that. I'd call it a floor rag, I guess. "Floor cloth" sounds British, believe it or not. If it was for drying the floor, it might be called a floor towel. "Floor wipe" sounds like an advertising term to me, and leaves me wondering what exactly it is—cloth, paper, rubber. --Milkbreath (talk) 16:45, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Ditto. Just like when you wash the dishes with a dishrag and you dry them with a dishtowel. According to Merriam-Webster, a floorcloth is used as a floor covering [15]--although it's safe to assume this is very rare nowadays. Jack^(Lumber) 16:55, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

In Korean you would say 걸레 (geolle) which is also a very derogatory slang term for "slut." In English, I would just say "cloth." --Kjoonlee 18:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Heavens, men! floorcloth! It is currently a cloth for cleaning floors, and the floor covering is considered antiquated. The entry has it about right. (And one washes dishes with a dishcloth, and dries them with a tea towel!) SaundersW (talk) 21:27, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

questionaire for testing the habbit of english reading habits

<removing query already posted above under "May 3"> Deor (talk) 19:04, 5 May 2008 (UTC)