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September 22

Latin? motto translation

What does the text on this logo mean? ----Seans Potato Business 19:07, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

"The Word of the Lord is a light". DNI is an abbreviation for Domini "of the Lord". Our article University of Groningen explains that the full motto is Verbum Domini lucerna pedibus nostris, "The Word of the Lord is a light for our feet". —Angr 19:23, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Apparently, it was adapted from

Psalm 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

-- Wavelength (talk) 19:46, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Or both are translations of (part or all of) the same original text. --Anonymous, 03:33 UTC, September 23, 2008.

What I meant to say was:

Apparently, it was adapted from a Latin version of

Psalm 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

(The Psalms were originally in Hebrew. I followed my usual custom of copying the source code for the title bar, and pasting it into the external link. In this instance, the text in the title bar happens to be in English.)

-- Wavelength (talk) 15:58, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Latin Text

Nearby where I live is an exposition of Latin inscriptions. Id be interested in what it means. The texts are short. First one: Aeliae Novelae. Matri vixit annos LXX. Et Victriae fortion convgi vixi annos XL et Hermeti filio vixit annos XIX Flavius Serenus Piisimus. Second text: Deo invicto. Soli templum. A solo resti. Tuit Valerus. venustus Vir Perfectissimus Praeses Provinciae Raetiae Sicuti Voto. Ac Mente Con. Ceperat Red. Ditus Sanitati. Votum Solvit Laetus Libens Merito.

Thanks in advance.--85.180.23.192 (talk) 19:10, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, they're a little weird and seem to have periods right smack in the middles of words. (I'm pretty sure "resti. Tuit", "Con. Ceperat", and "Red. Ditus" should be "restituit", "conceperat", and "redditus".) The first one sounds like it might come from a family grave or something since it seems to say someone's mother Aelia Novela lived 70 years, his wife Victoria lived 40 years, and his son Hermes 19 years. —Angr 19:33, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

It looks like there are spelling errors too, but maybe they are just typos. "Victriae" must be "Victoriae" and "fortion" I suppose is "fortiori", and the "vixi" should be "vixit" like the others. When and where are the inscriptions from? The first one I would say is a dedication made by Flavius, who is either "serene and most pious", or "Serenus" is part of his name; he has dedicated something, perhaps a gravestone as Angr said, "to his mother Aelia Novela who lived 70 years, and to Victoria the stronger [or "the elder?"], his wife who lived 40 years, and to his son Hermes who lived 19 years." The second one is "The handsome and most excellent man Valerus, governor of the province of Rhaetia, has restored from the ground a temple to the god Sol Invictus..." I'm not sure about everything after "sicuti voto" but maybe "...just as he had conceived in vow and in mind for a safe return." The periods and the capitals are throwing me off; are these new sentences, and names? Did a guy named "Laetus Libens" rightly release him from his vow? Or are "laetus" and "libens" more adjectives describing Valerus? Adam Bishop (talk) 13:27, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Valerius Venustus was the praeses of Rhaetia in the late third or early fourth century AD. [1] --Cam (talk) 17:51, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

ch in german

Why does the ch, as in ich, in german sound like an "h" sometimes and an "sh" at other times? Like in ich, "eeh" and "eesh"? I used to think that it turned into sh when spoken rapidly in conversation, but Ive heard people actually pronounce individual words with the sh sound. Any thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.47.26.4 (talk) 21:56, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

In normal standard German pronunciation, German orthographic "ch" after a front vowel is not a "sh"-type sound, but rather a non-sibilant palatal fricative, IPA [ç]. The phenomenon of conditioned sound variants is called allophony. English has allophones too -- for instance, the "t" of "top" has a little puff of air after it (aspiration), while the "t" of "stop" doesn't. Speakers of many other languages might perceive these two allophones as completely separate and distinct sounds (i.e. those language have a phoneme contrast of aspirated vs. unaspirated)... AnonMoos (talk) 22:13, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Generally, 'ch' will sound more like a 'sh' before an 'i' or an 'e', and more like an 'h' before others. It's the allophony that AnonMoos was talking about. AnonMoos is also correct that it's not quite the same as the 'sh' that English speakers use, nor is it like the 'h' that English speakers use. However, if you used 'sh' and 'h' sounds in those situations, a German speaker would understand you, but would probably think you have a very strong accent. Steewi (talk) 01:42, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

The back-variant or "ach-laut" is IPA [x] (as in Scottish loch etc.), while the front-variant or "ich-laut" is IPA [ç], neither of which sounds occurs in standard English. And I think that preceding vowels more often have an influence than following vowels. Pronouncing the "ich-laut" as "sh" is acceptable if you're JFK reciting a single sentence in front of the Berlin wall, but it's just a temporary makeshift expedient if you're seriously learning to speak German. See German_phonology#Ich-Laut_and_ach-Laut for what Wikipedia has... AnonMoos (talk)

Actually, [ç] does occur allophonically in English, in words like hue and human, especially if you pronounce the h strongly. And there are German accents where /ç/ merges with the "sh" sound spelled "sch" in German, so that "ich" becomes "isch", as well as accents where the opposite happens: I think Helmut Kohl was known for saying "Tich" instead of "Tisch" ("table"). As for JFK, if I remember correctly (and we have a sound file at Ich bin ein Berliner but I don't have speakers at the moment), he pronounced "ich" as "ick", which coincidentally is how the word is pronounced in Berlin dialect. —Angr 05:16, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

The general tendency in American English, at least, is to de-emphasize the aspiration in such contexts (or even drop it altogether), rather than to often emphasize it in a manner which would produce a true [ç] sound. And you should only imitate dialectal pronounciations when acquiring a standardized language (as opposed to Bühnenaussprache in the German case) if you're aware of what you're doing and are comfortable with the resulting social connotations. I remember I was once told that my pronunciation of French "r" could pass as a certain regional dialect, but if I wanted to sound Parisian, then I had to get uvular... AnonMoos (talk) 06:51, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Both sounds occur in my dialect of Scouse. We are most famous for the [x] sound, but we also use [ç] as in German and under exactly the same circumstances (i.e. in the proximity of front vowels) as in certain people's pronunciation of 'book' [byç].--ChokinBako (talk) 19:09, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the ach- ([x]) and the ich-sound ([ç]) are two variants of one phoneme, [ʃ] is used instead in some dialects and sociolects. It is true that Helmut Kohl was/is often ridiculed for his hypercorrect overgeneralisation, leading to things like [tiç] instead of [tɪʃ]. In his Palatinate dialect [x] and [ç] are afaik rare and usually realised as [ʃ], so that by trying to speak accent-free High German he simply replaced any [ʃ] by [x] or [ç]... ;-) -- 84.160.48.100 (talk) 06:58, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

September 23

Languarge / Plural Words

Can you please tell us all plural words ending with en or ren? We know of two, oxen and children. Is there any other? Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.172.255.114 (talk) 22:29, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

In terms of words having some currency in the modern standard language, "brethren" is pretty much the only other one... "Kine" was once the umlauted-and-en-suffixed plural of "Cow". AnonMoos (talk) 22:32, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Of course, there are m-en and wom-en. There is also doz-en, which may be used as a plural. If you want to indulge in dubious semantics, sev-en or t-en are possible plurals of one. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 23:14, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

"Dozen" isn't the plural of "doz" but from the French "douzaine", cf "dixaine", "vingtaine", "centaine" etc. Nor is "seven" the plural of "sev"; it is cognate with Latin "septem". Itsmejudith (talk) 13:52, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

My indulgence reached its breaking point after the end of your 2nd sentence, Cookatoo.  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 23:22, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

May I direct your attention to our article on the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, three of which - Sr. Benedicta, Sr. P. and Sr. Vaticana - will be sanctified, posthumourously, I suspect, in the forthcoming oevre penned by the great BardofOz. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 23:49, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

There is the word "Lederhosen". -- Wavelength (talk) 23:33, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

You could argue that that's an English word borrowed from German that still takes its original-language plural, cf. phenomena, bureaux etc. Oxen, children and brethren all use an English plural form. It may not be the dominant form, but it's still a legitimate English plural, because there are no such words as oxes or childs. There is brothers, but that means something different from brethren. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:02, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Another example would be "heldentenoren", a not uncommon alternative to heldentenors. I was reminded of this when checking James Lipton's An Exaltation of Larks (a book I cannot recommend too highly for those interested in collective nouns), which suggests "a schrei of heldentenoren". -- JackofOz (talk) 20:21, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I suppose that could be the Dutch plural. The German plural is [Heldentenöre] Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (help). —Angr 20:25, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

If root words are included, then their compounds are also:

grandchildren (and great-grandchildren, and so forth), stepchildren,

postmen, fishermen, gentlemen, linemen, firemen, aldermen, henchmen, clansmen, yeomen, bowmen, oarsmen, kinsmen, cavemen, boatmen, tradesmen, seamen, wood(s)men,

gentlewomen, noblewomen, charwomen, washerwomen,

twenty-seven (and thirty-seven, and so forth).

-- Wavelength (talk) 00:50, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

None of those (except the compounds of "children") actually have an "-en" plural suffix morpheme, but there is also the hackeresque "boxen" and "Vaxen"... AnonMoos (talk) 14:10, 24 September 2008 (UTC) AnonMoos (talk) 14:08, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

See wikt:Category:English plurals ending in "-en". The only interesting one not mentioned already is "sistren". --Sean 14:23, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

• It used to be thought in the 19th century that "chicken" was originally the plural of "chick" and somehow became singular. It is now considered that "chick" is derived from "chicken", not vice versa. One example of the German loanwords mentioned earlier is aurochs; the German plural "aurochsen" is sometimes used in English, though as the article states aurochs is the usual English plural. jnestorius^(talk) 21:27, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

"Vixen" isn't a plural either, but it is a very unusual singular. Does that count? -- JackofOz (talk) 21:33, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

No doubt this has been covered here time out of mind, but there are reasons for the -en plurals. Nouns taking the weak declension in Old English took an -en plural, whereas strong nouns took -s, and when the latter form (favoured in the North) prevailed, only "oxen" survived. "Children" and "brethren" are different: double plurals, in that the -en was added to a word already in its "irregular" plural form. I love Caxton's little anecdote about the bunch of merchants becalmed in the mouth of the Thames, who go ashore to buy supplies and can't get the poor housewife to understand "eggs". "I'm sorry,", she says, "I don't speak French." Only when they ask her for "eyren" does she understand. Karenjc 21:54, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

An old favorite with linguists. The full story:

“ And that comyn Englysshe that is spoken in one shyre varyeth from a nother. In so moche that in my dayes happened that certayn marchauntes were in a shippe in Tamyse, for to haue sayled ouer the see into Zelande. And for lacke of wynde, thei taryed atte forlond, and wente to lande for to refreshe them; And one of theym named Sheffelde, a mercer, cam in-to an hows and axed for mete; and specyally he axyd after eggys; And the goode wyf answerde, that she coude spoke no Frenshe. And the marchaunt was angry, for he also coude speke no Frenshe, but wolde haue hadde egges, and she vnderstode hym not. And thenne at laste a nother sayd that he wolde haue eyren. Then the good wyf sayd that she vnderstod hym wel. Loo, what sholde a man in thyse dayes now wryte, egges or eyren? Certaynly it is harde to playse euery man by cause of dyuersite & chaunge of langage. ”

And the last sentence is as true today as it was then. —Angr 11:42, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

'Child' did not originally take an -en plural; it was originally child, later childra. Children was a Middle English leveling with brethren, which also had an -r-. kwami (talk) 21:59, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I had heard the eggs story before. Can anyone provide a stable online source? I had understood it was from Chaucer. Thanks. BrainyBabe (talk) 13:42, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

It's definitely Caxton; it's from the prologue to his translation of the Aeneid. Just Google for a handful of words from the above text, putting them in quotation marks, for example [2], to find all sorts of online sources. —Angr 13:52, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

"Certaynly it is harde to playse euery man by cause of dyuersite & chaunge of langage." That quote should be put at the top of Wikipedia:Manual of Style (spelling)! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dgcopter (talk • contribs) 14:57, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Sometimes "sistren" is used humourously in modern English. "Eyren" and "shoen" were also in use until very recently in English. The Jade Knight (talk) 11:28, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

September 24

The origins of the term: Minding your Ps and Qs?

Does anyone know the meaning of or the origins of the saying "Minding your ps and qs." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 56.0.143.25 (talk) 06:45, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I've heard various theories on this, including printers dealing with movable type where the letters appear on the blocks in mirror-image, making confusion of "p" and "q" (and for that matter, "b" and "d") easy. Another theory I've heard is barkeepers having to keep track of how many pints and quarts they've sold. —Angr 06:52, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Other theories are given at Mind your Ps and Qs. Gwinva (talk) 08:17, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Another theory (with little support) is that it's related to P-Celtic and Q-Celtic, and distinguishing between them. But that's generally pretty far-fetched. The Jade Knight (talk) 07:41, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

environment and ecosystem

Are the terms interchangeable? If there is a sensitive area to protect or a natural resource that has been damaged...what are some of the subtleties is the use of these two words? Is one of them part of the other (the environment is made up of various ecosystems, or vice versa?) If I write about 'protecting the environment and the ecosystem', am I being redundant, or imprecise? Thanks for any suggestions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.101.134.43 (talk) 14:50, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I'd say that "ecosystem" refers to a precise and defined area and all the flora and fauna in that area, and that "enviornment" is more of a nebulous term used to refer to the overall condition of an area or the world. So, for example, to talk about "the ecosystem of the Amazon rainforest" would refer to all the plants, animals, and people living in the Amazon rainforest, how they interact with each other, etc. I don't think one would say "the enviornment of the Amazon rainforest" to mean the same thing (in fact, I think that phrase is almost meaningless). In my mind, "ecosystem" is a scientific term, and "environment" is a socio-political one.

So, with regards to your example, I would write about "protecting the environment" or "protecting the ecosystem of [specific place]", but probably wouldn't combine both terms in the way you used. Dgcopter (talk) 16:21, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

"Environment" is everything that surrounds somebody or something (compare "environs"). When talking about an environment you should really say whose environment – yours or perhaps somebody else's? I would understand "the environment" as a broad term meaning all humanity's environment, i.e. the Earth. "Ecosystem" is of course related, through the "eco" component derived from the Greek oikos, meaning "house, dwelling place, habitation". But it also has the "system" component which means that you're looking at your (or others') environment from a scientific point of view, that is as a system of interacting elements. — Kpalion^(talk) 18:49, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Here is a link: Environment and eco-system resilience - Statistics New Zealand

-- Wavelength (talk) 21:14, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

According to the article "Glossary of environmental science",

an ecosystem is "a dynamic complex of plant, animal and microorganism communities and their non-living environment all interacting as a functional unit",

and (the/an) environment is "the external conditions, resources, stimuli etc. with which an organism interacts".

-- Wavelength (talk) 15:14, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

You might receive better answers at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Science.

-- Wavelength (talk) 15:32, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Here are four external links.

• EnviroEducation.com - The Ultimate Environment Glossary.
• United Nations Statistics Division - Environment Statistics -- Environment Glossary
• Environmental Terminology Discovery Service — EEA
• Environmental Glossary » Earth 911

-- Wavelength (talk) 16:22, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Poised or composed? which word to use, or how to build the sentence?

The druid remained COMPOSED/POISED despite what she had just been told, and he got the feeling that she had somehow already known the truth of the situation down in the Dwarven Halls, even before he told her. It had just been a matter of getting it confirmed since no one had ventured down there until now.

what is the better word to use here?

I might be wrong, but I've always thought of "composed" as a word that you use more to describe how calm and controlled you are in a ACTIVE situation, such as in sports, competitions or the likes. Like in soccer, if you get a chance alone with the keeper to score you can say that one must keep ones composure in order to be able to score.

But the sentence on the top which I am referring to in this question is not like that. Here, this woman is told something, she gets some grave, bad news that potentially could have made her react in shock and/or surprise, but she remains calm and controlled.. This is a very different situation, and it is not "in the heat of the moment" I'm not sure if 'composed' is the word i should use, although maybe it is... And I'm not as sure about 'poised'... I guess i just need to hear from someone who is born english-spoken.

A very simple question, but I would still be very grateful for an englishman's (or american's etc.) view on the matter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.164.177.171 (talk) 14:51, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I would go with 'composed'. It just implies that the person is emotionally normal/stable, which fits the context. I would say 'poised' is more active, as though the person is quite obviously stable. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 15:02, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you :) that was helpful —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.164.177.171 (talk) 15:32, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Chinese question

My Chinese work colleague told me, upon discussing the Finnish and Chinese languages, that "chau" (using an approximate phonetic spelling, sounds like "ciao" in Italian) is a very profane swear word in Chinese. Is this true, and if so, what exactly does it mean? JIP | Talk 19:54, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

They're probably thinking of cao4 嘈 (I think that's the character, it might be 操). It's pronounced [tsʰau] with a falling tone (tone 4), which is somewhat similar (especially to a Taiwanese person). Steewi (talk) 00:57, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Isn't it this character (肏)? In Cantonese, the pronunciation is chaau3, according to Wiktionary, so that might be what your colleague is referring to. bibliomaniac15 01:30, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I kind of wonder how the fact that the great majority of possible phonetic syllables are multiply homophonous (semantically ambiguous between several words) in isolation affects Chinese swearwords... AnonMoos (talk) 01:51, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

It's all dependent on the context of course, but sometimes it does lend itself to confusion/double entendre. There are also Chinese euphemisms, for example, xiao jie is the colloquial for "waitress," but it may also mean "prostitute." bibliomaniac15 19:42, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

...which can lead to horribly funny Chinglish translations: Fuck the Certain Price of Goods (干货计价处 / 乾[幹]貨計價處, "dry goods weighing station"). The character that the OP had heard is probably 肏, but it's quite archaic and nowadays it's more commonly expressed with the homophone 操, and basically means "fuck". --antilived^{T | C | G} 05:28, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Allow/permit

What is the difference between the verbs "allow" and "permit"? JIP | Talk 19:55, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

To permit is to give permission. To allow is to admit, or to take into consideration: you can allow (admit) the truth, you can allow (or admit) something is acceptable, you can allow (or take into consideration) a particular plan or suggestion. Sometimes "permit" and "allow" are interchangeable, but not always. Gwinva (talk) 23:48, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

September 25

verbal adverb

what exactly is one!? I mean, to jump is a verb; so what's the verbal adverb of that? jumply? jumpingly? jumpedly? and where would it ever makes sense; he walked jumpingly? I don't think I quite understand these things. Im trying to learn french and have learned how to form them; but I don't know what they mean! thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.10.160.139 (talk) 00:24, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Can you give an example in French? I don't know any, all adverbs formed from another part of speech that I can think of are from an adjective. That adjective can be formed from a verb in the first place, but it doesn't matter, it went through the adjective. To use your example: to jump ("he jumped when I called him") -> jumpy ("he is very nervous and jumpy these days") -> jumpily ("He was reacting to all my suggestions jumpily" not really sure if that one works). --Lgriot (talk) 03:30, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

"He was reacting jumpily to all my suggestions" works. DuncanHill (talk) 13:35, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I think he means words ending in -ammant/-emmant which can be derived from participles in some cases (e.g. "courammant", basically from "courant", the participle of "courir" -- though others, such as "consciemment", are not derived from synchronic participles). Anyway, in English we do have "swimmingly"... AnonMoos (talk) 07:32, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

But again, "courant" has become an adjective before "courammant" was formed (from a similar meaning as in "eau courante"). For "consciemment", what is the verb? There is only "conscient", which is an adjective again. And, sorry for my ignorance of English, what would "swimmingly" mean? "by the means of swimming"? Sound ugly to my ears, but if you say some people say that, I am not a prescriptivist, so up to them. --Lgriot (talk) 09:22, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

"Conscient" is a Latin verb participle borrowed as a French adjective, but either way the combination of morphemes -ent/-ant + -ment becomes -emmant/-ammant. If you translate "courammant" literally into English, morpheme-by-morpheme, it would come out as "runningly"... AnonMoos (talk) 11:30, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

No, "swimmingly" is only used figuratively. It means "without a hitch", smoothly, easily, without disruption. Using it in connection with actual swimming (He won the 100-meter butterfly race swimmingly) would be considered a groan-inducing pun. —Angr 09:29, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

For more of these, see Tom Swifty swiftly. Rmhermen (talk) 21:50, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Was looking for a list of French adverbs ending in -ammant, but can't really find one. This page is very inadequate and inaccurate... AnonMoos (talk) 11:54, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes; I do mean the words ending in -amment/-emmant for the present aspect, and those constructed of the past participle with the addition of the suffix -ment for the perfect aspect. I think you are correct in saying despite being verbal adverbs they are constructed from the intermediate step of verbal adjectives. But even so I fail to understand quite how to use them, for example (to return to my jumpy example!) what do the words sautamment and sautément actually mean? And where would it be correct to use them? If it is the case that this particular verb forms a nonsensical verbal adverb; could you try and help me by explaining with a different one? Thank you. 92.10.160.139 (talk) 11:59, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Just to make it clear, I am a native speaker of French and sautamment or sautément have no meaning to me. I can't even think of a possible meaning. --Lgriot (talk) 00:44, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Don't think that the word patterns of French courammant etc. are fully morphologically productive in French, any more than the word patterns of "swimmingly" and "doggedly" are fully productive in English. AnonMoos (talk) 18:24, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

AnonMoos, the main reason you weren't able to find a list of adverbs ending in -ammant is because the correct spelling is -amment (i.e. couramment, not *courammant). Thylacoleo (talk) 23:38, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Question!

Is "religiopolitics/al" a real word?

I've seen both religiopolitics and religiopolitical from/in various sources online. —Preceding unsigned comment added by L3tt3rz (talk • contribs) 02:44, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Negato/nosirreeski! (It hurts my eyes just to look at it.) Clarityfiend (talk) 03:39, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Several online dictionaries accept religiopolitical as a word, including wiktionary and AllWords.com. It seems Merriam Webster also accepts it as a word. The definition is usually:

adjective - Of or pertaining to both religion and politics.

There are also 9,000 hits on Google for religiopolitical in one word, and 117,000 hits for religio-political with the hyphen, so I guess it can be considered an accepted word in at least some social networks.--Lgriot (talk) 03:43, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Ahhh. I was so stunned by the sheer ugliness of what was in quotes, I didn't read the rest of the question properly. Clarityfiend (talk) 16:49, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia has a Category:Religion and politics. -- Wavelength (talk) 17:05, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

See religiopolitical - OneLook Dictionary Search. -- Wavelength (talk) 17:19, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

A reference to heat

a reference to heat (greek) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.88.79.110 (talk) 05:34, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what your question is, if you have one, but the element therm- (as in thermic and Thermos) comes from the Greek word for heat or warmth. —Angr 06:01, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Correct English?

Can you please tell me if it is correct to say "An hotel" or "A hotel" ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.107.46.162 (talk) 08:33, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

It depends how you pronounce "hotel". If you make the /h/ sound at the beginning of the word, then say "a hotel" (like "a house"). If the "h" is silent in your pronunciation, then say "an hotel" (like "an hour" or "an honest man"). —Angr 08:47, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia has a decent article on A and an which you might want to check. Relevant to your question from the article : "Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage is more descriptive than prescriptive, but it advises, "You choose the article that suits your own pronunciation." Theodore Bernstein gives the straight vowel-sound vs. consonant-sound explanation but allows that one should indeed say "an hotel" if they think hotel is pronounced otel." Equendil Talk 08:53, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

There is a third alternative. Use "an" but still pronounce the "h". This seems to work, and I've often heard it. I'd almost prefer it to "a hotel" or "an otel", actually. I can't think of any other word starting with the "h" sound where it would work. I'd never say "an hoe", or "You haven't got an hope in hell", for example, but I wouldn't object to "This town has an hotel". -- JackofOz (talk) 12:07, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I find "an hotel" (with the h sounded) painful. If you are not going to pronounce the h, then of course say "an", but write "an hôtel". DuncanHill (talk) 12:15, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

If you're in France, maybe. Hanging on to French (or any other) diacritics for an English-reading audience most of whom were never taught them and have no idea what they mean seems hardly the way of the future. We borrow words wholesale, but let's generally leave the diacritics where they belong, back in their home countries. The only exception would be personal names and other proper nouns (Dvořák, Rhône, Milošević, etc., and even then only in certain contexts.) -- JackofOz (talk) 12:33, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, I seem to pronounce the h in "an hour" or "an honest man" (but not "an hotel"), though not very markedly, then again English is not my native language, so I might just be the only person to do so. Equendil Talk 13:15, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

My grandmother, who believed fervently that decent people should speak English "properly" like the nice people in dinner jackets on the BBC, always said "an hotel", never sounding the "h" and stressing the final syllable hard so it came out something like "annuh-tel". She loathed the fact that all her grandchildren said "a hotel" instead, and was prone to correcting this "lapse" when she heard it. We are all from Northern England; our local way of speaking involves plenty of dialect words and features the dreaded glottal stop, which would also arouse Granny's wrath, even though she was surrounded by people who spoke that way. I think it's still something of a shibboleth, in Britain at least, for those with particular views on the link between speech and class. Karenjc 14:12, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Just as a sidenote to something Jack said above, take a look at the fifth stanza of Psalm 46: http://www.cgmusic.com/cghymnal/others/godisourrefuge.htm I recently sang a setting of this, and the line "the Lord to her an helper will..." always struck me as being especially odd.Dgcopter (talk) 14:49, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, in the King James Bible, the rule was simply "an before a vowel or h". You'll find "an hundred", "an house", and so forth. —Angr 15:35, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Not forgetting "an helpmeet", a word erroneously coined from a misreading of And the Lord God said, It is not good that man should be alone; I will make an help meet for him (Genesis 2:18). -- JackofOz (talk) 19:48, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Elsewhere on this page we have an example of "an hows" from 15th-century English. —Angr 20:33, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

We've had this discussion here many times, but I've yet to read a better analysis than the one offered by the sainted Noetica. Gwinva (talk) 04:32, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Pseudo-Chinese question

We currently have an article (it may eventually be merged) Bush hid the facts about how Windows XP/Vista Notepad can mess up character-set recognition, for example transforming a file containing only the letters "Bush hid the facts" into a string of Chinese characters. The Chinese characters in question are "畂桳栠摩琠敨映捡獴", and I would be curious to know if this remotely suggests any meaning in Chinese (Google Translate refuses to do anything with it). Thanks! AnonMoos (talk) 11:38, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

CEDICT doesn't give meanings for most of them; I suspect they're archaic or used only in names. It's not making a political point, if that's what you're wondering. Matt's talk 06:33, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Try it with this phrase: This app can break. Same results (and, the pseudo-Chinese is nonsense). DOR (HK) (talk) 03:19, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Sentence Reconstruction

Can the sentence "We might keep quiet about it." be reconstructed as "It might be kept quite about."? Or is the correct option "It might be kept quiet." ?? 117.194.227.234 (talk) 13:31, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

The first option ("it might be kept quiet about") preserves the meaning of the original, albeit in a very awkwardly-worded passive voice. "It might be kept quiet" implies that some object is going to be made to be quiet, which sounds kind of threatening in a Vito Corleone-esque way...Dgcopter (talk) 14:44, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Semantically they are slightly different in meaning, with the original sentence making no statement regarding whether or not 'it' is actually kept quiet, just that 'we' will keep quiet about it. Whereas the reconstruction does; implying that everyone will keep quiet about it, including those who already know, and those who may find out about 'it' in the future; whether or not they are included in the group 'we'. Regarding the syntactics of the two reconstruction; I would omit the about as it sounds awkward; though I cannot justify this preference with any grammatical rules. 92.10.160.139 (talk) 14:46, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Is there any reason why you're going for "might" rather than "could" (or perhaps even "should", depending on what meaning is intended)? "We could keep quiet about it" sounds better to me. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 14:48, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

It's not really possible without changing the meaning. "Keep quiet" in the original sentence is an intransitive verb, and intransitive verbs cannot be made passive, except in the sense "we might be kept quiet" (by some unnamed 3rd party, as identified by Dgcopter; I wouldn't have been so brave as to name them publicly). Which loses the indefinite object "about it", and changes the meaning. I suppose, at a long, long stretch, "quiet" could be considered a noun (cf. keep the peace), and you could go to the extreme of "[The] quiet might be kept about it", but that would stop listeners and readers in their tracks, which is a no-no - unless you really want to have such an impact on them. -- JackofOz (talk) 19:35, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Kgalema Motlanthe

How is Kgalema Motlanthe pronounced? I don't even know which of the many languages of South Africa it is. —Angr 15:32, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I did a Google search for pages with the words "kgalema meaning language" but without the word "motlanthe", and the first result was Sesotho concords.

-- Wavelength (talk) 02:25, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

The page VOA News - Voice of America Homepage - News in 45 Languages has a link to a pronunciation guide at VOA Pronunciation Guide. It gives the pronunciation as "kah-LAY-mah moht-LAH-tay" and has an audio file for it.

-- Wavelength (talk) 03:49, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Well if it is Sesotho, then Sesotho phonology will help us decipher it. For one thing kg is a voiceless velar fricative [x] or aspirated affricate [kxʰ], tl is an ejective lateral affricate [tɬʼ], and th is an aspirated alveolar stop [tʰ]. But e and o are ambiguous between open [ɛ] and [ɔ] and close [e] and [o]. It's interesting that the VOA suggestion leaves out the n, since the Sesotho phonology page says on the one hand that Sesotho doesn't have syllable codas, so it can't be [mo.tɬʼan.tʰe], and on the other hand that Sesotho doesn't have prenasalized stops, so it can't be [mo.tɬʼa.ntʰe]. Maybe the VOA is right that the n is just silent. Or maybe the name isn't Sesotho at all. (The VOA sound file is obviously being read out by an American, not a native speaker of whatever language this is, so it's not much use.) —Angr 04:21, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

You can find users who speak Sesotho at Category:User st.

-- Wavelength (talk) 06:58, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

True, but they don't necessarily know IPA or phonetics terminology. I've dropped a line at User talk:Zyxoas (a significant contributor to both Sesotho concords and Sesotho phonology), as I know that he speaks Sesotho and knows IPA. He doesn't bother with those silly Babelbox thingies, so he's not in Category:User st. —Angr 07:30, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about the lack of nasalization. Sotho has lots of words ending in <ng>, and n-stop clusters are not uncommon. kwami (talk) 07:27, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

The second reference in the article Kgalema Motlanthe has an external link to

BBC NEWS | Special Reports | Motlanthe sworn in as SA leader, with his own pronunciation of his own name.

-- Wavelength (talk) 15:57, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

He's definitely got either a nasalized vowel or a full n in the middle of his last name. The first sound of his first name seems to vary between [kx] and [x], as the article says it does. One thing that I notice is that stress seems to fall on the first syllable of Kgalema, which I didn't expect, since Zulu and Xhosa both regularly have stress on the penult of a polysyllabic word. —Angr 22:00, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

He says it himself once, at 1:21. If you can post or email me a sound clip, I can take a look at it with Praat, which will tell us if there's a [k] there or not. I've tried clipping it with SnagIt, but only get silent video. kwami (talk) 23:16, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Okay, Zyxoas has answered at User talk:Zyxoas#Pronunciation help and says the "n" in Motlanthe is syllabic, thus it's [mo.tɬʼa.n.tʰɛ]. He also says the name is Sesotho, Setswana, or Northern Sotho. For future reference, in the articles on Sesotho linguistics, you can usually mouse over Sesotho words and see the IPA transcription. "Kgalema" in Sesotho concords says [xɑlɪmɑ]. —Angr 14:51, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

"Freshers Week" - noun as adjective vs. possessive 's

If I could ask somebody to kindly defuse a tense argument about grammar... I used the term Freshers Week, and my friend claimed it should have been Freshers' Week, but I argued that Freshers Week was perfectly acceptable, if a little uncommon, because I'm using Freshers as an adjective to modify Week (as in the week of/for the freshers), and not as a possessive (the week belonging to the freshers). I'm pretty certain I'm right, but he refuses to see the cromulency of my argument. Thanks! Sum0 (talk) 15:40, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Can I be so impertinent as to avoid your question altogether and instead raise a completely different point? Namely, if you and your friend are arguing about the presence vs. absence of an apostrophe, you aren't having a tense argument about grammar at all, but rather an argument about punctuation. —Angr 15:52, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Angr's point notwithstanding, it seems to me that the way you're using it actually is possessive; the week of the Freshers = Freshers' week, in the same way that the uncle of the monkey = monkey's uncle. Using it as an adjective would mean that you were saying the week is "Freshers", in same way that you'd say the sky is blue (i.e., "the blue sky"). Dgcopter (talk) 17:27, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

No, the 'Freshers' in 'Freshers Week' is a noun adjunct. It indicates that the week pertains in some way to freshers, just as the Washington Monument pertains to Washington. It's a perfectly grammatical construction. Algebraist 17:52, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Although, in fairness, if that article and its references are any judge, there's a fair amount of controversy over how plural noun adjuncts should be punctuated. Which is to say, maybe the OP and his friend are both kinda right. Dgcopter (talk) 18:07, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Plural noun adjuncts definitely don't have an apostrophe. The controversy is over which things are noun adjuncts, and which are possessives. In this case, the normal form is Freshers' Week (the plural possessive), but I don't think the choice is a matter of correctness of grammar as such. Algebraist 18:24, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Compare Schoolies week. I've never seen it apostrophised, and it would be a rare and wonderful schoolie indeed who even contemplated such a thing. The sandgropers in Western Australia apparently call it Leavers' Week, but again I'd be very surprised to find the apostrophe actually used by the vast majority. Then there's Mother's Day. Despite Anna Jarvis's stricture, it's extremely common in these parts to encounter it as a noun adjunct, and it would be futile to fight this trend. As long as one is consistent, it could hardly be marked incorrect these days to dispense with the apostrophe. Same for Father's Day, despite what our article asserts ("as it is a plural possessive" - sez hu?). So, to return to Freshers Week, I support your argument that the noun adjunct version is perfectly valid, if perhaps not the dominant version. It's truly heart-warming to see people of this age actually giving a damn about the correct use of apostrophes. All is not lost yet. -- JackofOz (talk) 19:16, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Etymology of "Redeploy"

A common meme circulated by conservative pundits in the US is that anti-war politicians began using the word "redeploy" as a sort of politically correct "withdrawal" or "surrender." I did not have much success in my search for the words origins. Webster says only: "Origin: 1945." Two questions: 1) Where and how was "redeploy" coined? 2) Was it used with any frequency prior to this century? Thanks! Messiahxi (talk) 19:44, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

"Deploy" goes back to 1616, so it's surprising that no one prepended the "re-" before 1945. Do you mean uses prior to the 21st century? If so, yes, as in "a redeployment of troops." Google "redeployment troops" and you get over 460,000 hits on Google, many using "redeploy" in the sense of "move them somewhere else," not in the sense of "withdraw entirely." (My hunch, though only a hunch, is that conservatives found redeploy=retreat a handy stick to bash people like John Kerry with, their party being led by military careerists like George Bush and Dick Cheney.) In any event, I found things like this:

• Pakistani officials insisted that both countries had agreed in 1989 to redeploy troops to positions held in 1984...
• HRJ 18 would redeploy troops elsewhere in the region, not bring them home...
• Five days later the transport sailed to redeploy troops from the European to the Pacific theater, embarking 3000 soldiers at Leghorn, Italy, and bringing them safely to Luzon and Manila in August 1945.

And, from Churchill's Triumph and Tragedy (1953): "It was nevertheless a grave decision to uproot the enormous Anti-Aircraft organisation from the North Downs and to redeploy it on the coast, knowing that this might spoil the success of the fighters..." --- OtherDave (talk) 01:52, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, yes its use as a "traitor stick" is obvious. I was just curious how large the grain of truth was. I believe the Churchill quote alone wins me the argument. Thanks! Messiahxi (talk) 17:39, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

September 26

Block in avionics?

Programmable System Guides Jet to New Heights

Hi, what does "block" mean in the article above? I've looked through some on-line dictionaries but couldn't find anything obvious. --Kjoonlee 05:24, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't strike me as avionics or military jargon. I take it to mean just a delivery or installment. Seems to be just another word for phase of development. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:05, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Guate/ Cuate/ Watey language?

Does anyone know of a language named Guate (pronounced gwa-TAY)or something similar (qua-TAY or wa-TAY)? Where is (or was) it spoken? Does it still exist? What language family is it in? Jane Elderfield (talk) 06:56, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

There's a Kwatay in Senegal, a Kpwate and a Fadan Wate in Nigeria. Where did you hear of it? kwami (talk) 07:15, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Qaqet? Cua? Guató? Watut? All these are rom Ethnologue list [www.ethnologue.com] ? --Lgriot (talk) 08:20, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

There's also Guale in S. Carolina, if we start changing the t. kwami (talk) 20:58, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

"Drinking Cool Aid"

moved from village pump Gwinva (talk) 08:18, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

What is this meaning behind this expression and where did it originate? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.224.88.216 (talk) 08:07, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

"Drinking the Kool-Aid" means believing the words of an untrustworthy/deranged source. It's from the Jonestown deaths in 1978, when 900 members of the Peoples Temple committed suicide or were murdered by drinking poisoned Flavor Aid, erroneously remembered as Kool-Aid. jnestorius^(talk) 08:27, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

U.S. Constitutional over-punctuation

I recently commented on some over-punctuation in a piece of the U.S. Constitution, and I’ve come across another one. The 27th Amendment reads:

• No law, varying the compensation for the services of the Senators and Representatives, shall take effect, until an election of Representatives shall have intervened.

What’s with the 3 commas? It reads either like the work of a 5th grader or some ultra-pedant who lost the plot, badly. I’m aware this was first proposed in 1789 but not finally ratified till 1992, but I’m genuinely intrigued as to why they’d put these in, even back in 1789. Did the 1992 people really have to stick with the exact punctuation as originally proposed in 1789? Was there simply no legal way of modernising it without having to re-start the whole 200-odd-year process from scratch? I guess this might come down to a legal issue rather than one of changing punctuation styles, but here’s a good place to start asking. -- JackofOz (talk) 11:19, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I think, the placement of commas in that sentence, is just fine. :-þ —Angr 11:24, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, my attempts at answering stuff on this ref desk have proven that I know far less about English than I thought I did, but it seems to me that at least the first two commas are fine. The first two are offsetting the clause "varying the compensation ...", which modifies the "no law ... shall take effect" clause. The third comma seems a little more extraneous, I guess.

Fun side note about this particular Amendment: so-called "Cost of Living Increases" don't count. Loophole, anyone? :-) Dgcopter (talk) 20:01, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I read the first 2 commas as implying some parentheticality, which means all the text between the commas could be left out and the overall sense would remain. Do that, and we get "No law shall take effect, until an election of Representatives shall have intervened". This is clearly not what what the intention is. The laws that the amendment are about are not just any laws but specifically "law[s] varying the compensation for the services of the Senators and Representatives". Another way of writing it would be "No law that varies the compensation for ....". In that case, a comma after "law" would be misleading and wrong. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:06, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Over the years punctuation style has simply changed. The 3nd comma is there because there's a change of subject: no A shall X, until B shall Y. Without the comma, people would read it as a compound clause with a single subject. At the time, placement of commas was defined by grammar. Now we figure that if we can follow the text without commas, and there's no ambiguity, then the commas should be left out. Just a change in convention. kwami (talk) 20:56, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Jack, your country, founded by rapacious seafarers, transported malefactors, and the odd cashiered officer of the New South Wales Rum Corps, still retains, the world's number one welfare family, as its hereditary Head of State. So I wouldn't get too Worked up, by the Punctuation or the Capitalization, of a document written in a Far different Time and Place, &c.

More seriously, education was far more limited at the time, I think, and "standards" not nearly so standard as people think (or, perhaps, wish).

There may be something to the theory that once the amendment started down the road, no one wanted to upset the ratification apple cart by carping about a comma. We've managed one amendment roughly every ten years -- including a couple that cancel one another out -- and even then, started with ten right off the bat. It's by no means perfect, but as Benjamin Franklin said (not in so many words), ya dance with who brung ya. --- OtherDave (talk) 22:46, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

It's just contemporary (to 1789) English. Try reading Thomas Paine, or David Hume, or anyone else from there or therabouts in history from anywhere in the Anglophone world and you'll find exactly the same excessive (to modern readers) use of punctuation. In fact, over-punctuation might be the only thing that gives away the age of the works, which is quite surprising considering we're talking about something written two centuries ago. Koolbreez (talk) 19:27, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I see the first two as not merely excessive, but crossing the line into misleading. But if the the vast mass of Americans are not too phased by it, that's the end of that. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:38, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I'd hope they're not too fazed by it either. Malcolm XIV (talk) 09:25, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Idiomatic?

"If you (...) are searching a bailout for your crippled financial situation -due to your overuse of your credit card - the only thing I can tell you is that you should have at least a personality disorder."

Is the sentence above correct? I am asking due to the "should have". Does the author meant that any card-shovers searching a bailout HAVE a personality disorder? Nobody 'should' have this. Mr.K. (talk) 16:15, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

In American English, you could read the sentence as saying (in an ungainly fashion) "you better have at least a personality disorder if you want a bailout because you spent too much." If this interpretation is right, it's a windy way of saying "you need to be crazy" or, more likely, "you must be crazy" (with the implication that if you're not actually crazy, people will think you do not deserve the bailout). It's not an idiom; it's the offspring of overheated rhetoric and poor use of the language. --- OtherDave (talk) 21:36, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Searching for a bailout? -- JackofOz (talk) 21:54, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh, yes... I missed that completely. You need a "for" in there someplace. (See above, "overheated" and "poor use of the language.") --- OtherDave (talk) 22:47, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, not just "someplace", but specifically where I indicated. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:34, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

September 27

Spanish podcasts

Hi, I'm looking for good spanish podcasts or free audio. I'm looking for news and current affairs, debates and opinions, fiction, science fiction, science or your favourite. I haven't found much yet. Any help would be appreciated. ps. I posted a similar question on the spanish ref. desk. Thanks. 190.244.186.234 (talk) 04:41, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

• Science: Vanguardia de la Ciencia and El Sueño de Arquímedes by Ángel Rodríguez Lozano of RNE. Both, regrettably, now discontinued, but a large number of audio files are still available, see the links in the articles. A good science podcast was started by RNE's competitor Onda Cero when RNE stopped its two science podcasts. It's called "Partiendo de Cero", and is presented by Paco de Leon. It has a semi-official website where the audios are archived, follow this link. RNE has started a new science podcast, A hombros de Gigantes, which might also be of interest.
• News and current affairs: No es un dia cualquiera by Pepa Fernandez is my reccomendation. Six hours every week-end.
• You might also want to check out RNE's list of programs. There are audio files available for many of the programs. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 22:11, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Son of a bitch

What is the female equivalent of "son of a bitch"? 121.219.225.133 (talk) 10:50, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I have occasionally heard women called "son of a bitch", but I think the more usual female equivalent is simply "bitch". "Daughter of a bitch" would be either jocular or intended literally. —Angr 11:36, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

arabic translations

how do you say 'thank you' and 'sorry' in arabic? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.76.252.146 (talk) 15:02, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Shukran lak شكرا لك is the quasi-Classical Arabic way, I believe (technically laka when thanking a male and laki when thanking a female, but such short phrase-final i`rab vowels would not often be pronounced)... AnonMoos (talk) 16:00, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I learnt the short feminine form as 'shukran lik'. Steewi (talk) 12:34, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Meaning of Ingleby Barwick

Ingleby Barwick is (new) settlement in North Yorkshire. Like many parts of the Danelaw, place names in the area are a melange of Anglo-Saxon and Norse. I've been trying to figure out the derivation of the name. At face value Ingle-by would appear to mean hearth-village (Ingle from the gaelic, by from norse). And wick generally means farm or hamlet. Our Barwick-in-Elmet article says that Barwick was called Berewit in the Domesday Book, but doesn't give a derivation. However the local council says (on this page) that "Ingleby is the old English word for Barley and Barwick means Fields, - Barley Fields". The Ingleby part of that seems very difficult to believe. The barley part seems to make sense, and I've read about a bunch of the other Barwicks there are in England and many seem to have been barley growing areas. Similarly our page on Berwick-upon-Tweed (where Berwick and Barwick seem very similar) does indeed suggest Berwick might mean "barley farm" or "barley field" (from baerwic). So is the local authority correct, or does the name infact mean (to my mind much more rationally) "hearth village barley field"? -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 17:54, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Oxford Dict. Placenames indicates that Ingleby is Old Scandinavian Englar + by: 'farmstead or village of the Englishman'; and Barwick is from OE berewic, meaning 'barley farm, outlying part of an estate'. Make of that what you will. Gwinva (talk) 19:38, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, that's very informative indeed. Moreover, I didn't know the ODoP existed (and now I see it's rather affordable). -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:41, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

AP Stylebook?

What dictionary does the AP Stylebook use as its authoritative source? For example, how would an American writer who follows its style spell Ojibwa/Ojibwe/Ojibway and what definition would the word have?--206.248.172.247 (talk) 20:43, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Is it Webster's New World College Dictionary 4th edition?--206.248.172.247 (talk) 20:54, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

What type of logical argument is this?

Suppose that one answers the question "what is the probability of the x coordinate being greater than the y coordinate?" with this: "Change the names of the x and y axis so that the x axis is now the y axis and the y axis is now the y axis. Nothing changed except the names, so the probability of y being greater than x is the same as the probability of it being less than x. Therefore, both probabilities are 50%."

Another example might be answering the question "what is the probability of A sitting in front of B, if the seating arrangement is random?" with "if you switch the names of A and B, you'll see it's just as likely for A to sit in front of B as it is for B to sit in front of A. Therefore, the probabilities for both are 50%". --99.237.96.81 (talk) 21:13, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

That's the principle of indifference. Oddly enough it just came up on the Humanities desk too: Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities#Philisophical_term. -- BenRG (talk) 21:26, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

To a mathematician, it would be called "answering the wrong question". -- JackofOz (talk) 21:31, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I never heard the term "principle of indifference" in my math courses. If I was writing a proof I'd describe the result as true "by symmetry", i.e. the situation is symmetrical with respect to variable naming as the names could be interchanged without loss of generality. This was really a question for the Math reference desk; I suppose someone there might have yet another answer. --Anonymous, 03:20 UTC, September 28, 2008.

MLA citation for CJK names?

What's the proper MLA citation for names transliterated from a language where the surname usually comes first? For example, let's say I was citing an Akira Kurosawa film, but I was pretentious or using an original Japanese copy, so I have the name "黒澤 明". Instead of reproducing the actual characters (because TNR doesn't support them for one), let's say I decide to transliterate it. Assuming I cite the surname last (John Smith), would I cite his name as Akira Kurosawa (with the surname last?) or Kurosawa Akira (as it is literally transliterated from Japenese). I understand the MLA Style Manual as some info. on this, but I don't have access to that right now. Deshi no Shi (talk) 23:23, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Why not Kurosawa, Akira? --Kjoonlee 03:21, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

In the specific case of Japanese names people always seem to write "Akira Kurosawa" or "Kurosawa, Akira", but I think Chinese names are sometimes written surname first without the comma. I have no idea about other languages. -- BenRG (talk) 16:38, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

September 28

<ng> in Old English

Hi, how would a scribe in Alfred the Great's Winchester pronounce <engel>? Roughly /ɛŋɡɛl/? --Kjoonlee 03:19, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Either that or /ɛndʒɛl/ depending on the word's exact phonological history. —Angr 05:36, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Synonym of required that starts with "A"

well... anything? Thanks, 76.187.43.14 (talk) 03:38, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

"Appropriate" could fit in certain contexts, although it's not really a synonym for "required", generally speaking. -- JackofOz (talk) 04:15, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

"Asked" in some contexts ? Try WordWeb, nifty application, basically an interface for WordNet, an english dictionary/thesaurus from Princeton University, plus web access to Wikipedia/Wiktionary/other relevant stuff. Equendil Talk 04:36, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

"Assumed" in a job advertisement is a bit of a weasely alternative for "required". As in "It is assumed that the applicant has extensive experience in whatever..." --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 12:26, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Comparitives in other languages

In English, I think, single-word comparatives always tend toward more — dry, drier, driest. Are there languages where the construction is toward less — dry, lessdry, leastdry? Thanks. Saintrain (talk) 13:18, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

English: little, less, least. If I am a little drunk, you are less intoxicated and the subsequent poster is the least wobbly, than B (you) is less drunk than I am and C (as yet unknown) is almost sober, so the series goes towards a decrease in the property X. PS: I know, that´s not what you actually meant in the query. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 14:38, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, that's my point. "little, less, least" is getting more and more "less" :-) Saintrain (talk) 14:50, 28 September 2008 (UTC)