Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Hinduism

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Wikipedia Day Awards

Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 18:38, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion

The group indicated above was recently revitalized for, among other things, the purpose of working on those articles whose content is such that the article does not fall within the scope of any particular denomination. To most effectively do this, however, we would benefit greatly if there were at least one member from this Project working on those articles. On that basis, I would encourage and welcome any member of this Project willing to work on those articles to join the Religion WikiProject. Thank you. Badbilltucker 22:43, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Use of Swastika

Recently an editor received a template on his talk page with a Hindu Swastika on it [1]. This editor associates the swastika with Hitler and the Nazi holocaust. I believe that many people in Europe, the US, and elsewhere would have similar reactions. Although pride in one's heritage is natural, I don't believe that Wikipedia is necessarily the best place to express that pride, and some expressions of pride may be divisive and offensive. I don't see significant informative value added to articles by having a swastika on various templates. My suggestion is that templates with Swastikas be modified to only have Aum. Please comment. --BostonMA ^talk 00:19, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I am opposed to this change. The swastika used on the template is sufficiently stylized and has those dots that differentiate it from the 3rd Reich's version of the symbol, and this difference is apparent to any observer. The swastika has a long and varied history, let's not ban it from perfectly relevant contexts because of the 1 decade where it was used by the nazis. --tjstrf talk 00:35, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that we should keep it. But there should be a sentence in the article mentioning that it is an ancient symbol, which would make clear that it long pre-dated the bastardized Nazi use of it. ॐ Priyanath talk 00:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The swastika is a minor Hindu symbol, far less prevalent than, say, the Aum. Choosing the swastika to represent Hinduism on so many Hinduism-related templates seems akin to having a 'Liberty Bell' or bald eagle on all U.S.-related template pages, rather than an American Flag or Seal of the President, etc. This is of course to say nothing of the interpretation Europeans have of the swastika. The ubiquitous use of the swastika on Hindu-related templates seems not only insensitive to Europeans, Africans and North Americans, it also is less representative of Hinduism than the Aum. I recommend replacing it in large part (not necessarily in toto) with the Aum. I attempted to do so, only to be rolled back by User:DaGizza. I won't engage in petty edit warring, and hope that cool heads and intellect will prevail. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 01:02, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Note: I've created and uploaded a red version of the 'aum' symbol, to use the red color User:DaGizza mentioned as being more auspicious for Hindus than the black of the original 'Aum.png'. I'm hopeful User:DaGizza and others will see this as more good faith, and act accordingly in the best interests of our global readers.

Thank you. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 01:16, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I concur that the symbol has a dark history when presented without context. Since we cannot hope to provide the context in the template (unlike say the Swastika or Hindu Iconography article), I support substituting the symbol. I would also hope that that this will not devolve into an issue of grandstanding, and cooler heads will prevail. Abecedare 01:25, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

One thing. The Nazi symbol is very different from swastika. Nazi symbol faces the opposite direction, is tilted by an angle and is colored black. Hindu, Jain and Romani swastikas all face in opposite direction and are colored saffron, not black. There are many houses of Hindus in teh west that have swastikas adorned on it and no objections from Jewish residents etc. Only problem is if skinheads etc. put opposite-facing Nazi symbol, which is illegal in Europe etc. Rumpelstiltskin223 01:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

True enough - however, I don't believe the sensitivities of many Europeans, Africans or North Americans are assuaged by merely reversing the orientation of the swastika, nor by the mere presence of the dots. Also - as I've mentioned before the swastika is a minor Hindu symbol, and it really doesn't represent Hinduism with the totality or ubiquity of 'aum'. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 01:50, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, this is not entirely true. Examples of "backwards" swastikas can be found all over...true, they're only about 1/10 or so as popular as the one being discussed here, but the nazis' swastika was not a new "invention". Tomer^talk 01:57, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect, I don't think what Rumpelstiltskin223 stated is even universally true in practice. Here are some pictures which show how widely the Nazi and Hindu swastika can vary and why we should not rely on nuances in order to avoid unnecessarily being hurtful: A red Nazi swastika, A non tilted Nazi swastika, A counter-clockwise Hindu Swastika, A clockwise Hindu Swastika (in black and white) ...

I'd feel a lot better about this discussion if it weren't for the user in question canvassing opinions via a rather vitriolic message[2] to the talk pages of seemingly random Judaism-related projectspace pages and quite a few of our Jewish editors. I trust that they will be educated enough to understand the context. --tjstrf talk 01:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd feel a lot better about this discussion if it weren't for the user in question canvassing opinions via a rather vitriolic rhetorically charged and emotional message[3] to the talk pages of seemingly random Judaism-related projectspace pages and quite a few of our Jewish editors. I trust that they will be educated enough to understand the context. --tjstrf talk 01:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't call that post 'vitriolic'. I'd call it impassioned - but I'm not sure I see vitriol in IZAK's post. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 01:51, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflicted) Perhaps vitriolic is not the ideal word. Among other things, I found his message insultingly ignorant, especially the part where he says "[the swastika] is VERY far from neutral, no matter in what context it is used". Plus he basically accuses all the Hindu editors of incivility. --tjstrf talk 02:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your objection to that comment. In a purely Hindu context, the swastika is probably a lot closer to neutral (or at least not loaded with Nazism) than it is seen in the West). I apologize if with my assent it appeared I was meaning to express a racist perspective. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:03, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[Crossposting most of my response to IZAK here as well, and I was one of the people tjstrf mentions above as "canvassed"...I think tjstrf does IZAK and wikipedians at large a disservice by seeming to imply that people can't think clearly on their own, simply because someone suggests that they might find a subject to be of interest...] I've known about the swastika there for quite some time, and do not find it even mildly offensive. I think, in fact, that it's more than just a little bit disingenuous to decry a religion's symbology, especially one that has enjoyed importance across millennia, as a symbol of life, no less, just because one deranged asshole who was never even remotely associated with that religion, took an adaptation of that symbol as one of the emblems for his diabolical movement. That man, whose name doesn't deserve mention in this discussion, and the movement he led to power, used other symbols as well, notably eagles and crosses. The cross, one of the foremost symbols of Christianity, for what it's worth, is a much more objectionable symbol, given the hundreds of thousands of Jews who were put to death upon them. At the same time, unlike the swastika, the cross is emblematic of death, not life. I think the effort to remove the swastikas as they appear in perfect context in Hinduism-related articles, is in extremely bad taste... the censorship it reeks of is so much more emotionally-based than logically-based that if your recommendation succeeds, I will regard it as far more catastrophic to the intellectual integrity of Wikipedia than proliferation of genital piercing articles. Raq zuzayim sheli... Tomer^talk 01:53, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, except as I've mentioned before, I do believe that the effect in the Western world that the symbol has had since the 40's, combined with it's relatively minor status makes it a poor choice to be so widely employed to represent Hinduism. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 01:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I did not intend to imply that a canvassed editor is incapable of thinking for themselves, in fact the few comments I skimmed on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism were quite level-headed about the issue. Canvassing is, however, highly frowned upon and it is recommended that the targeted discussion be warned of the event. (On WP:CANVAS, which was split out from WP:SPAM recently.) --tjstrf talk 02:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The symbol should stay. Next IZAK will be going on other religious projects and telling them to take down their symbols because it reminds him of something bad that happened. If one comes down, they all should go down. I’m an atheist westerner, but I do NOT believe there is one "true" religion. Everyone can learn a little something from the doctrine or philosophy of each religion. I’ve only got one more thing to say: FREEDOM OF RELIGION. (Ghostexorcist 02:03, 5 January 2007 (UTC))

Tell that to the Holocaust dead, or to their next of kin, or to some sensitive souls out there! IZAK 02:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Has it ever occurred to you that there was such a thing as a Swastika prior to the 20th century? It is in the best interests not only of the Wikipedia community but of the world as a whole to allow themselves to move beyond tragedies, not let them control us for the indefinite future. --tjstrf talk 02:13, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

IZAK: Hitler's Germany affected my family deeply, in profoundly awful ways. However, one must balance the power the Swastika has for those affected in this way with the other individuals not similarly affected. There IS a difference between the Nazi Swastika and the Hindu swastika - not the orientation nor the dots. However, the swastika is a poor choice for a 'universal symbol of Hinduism', as it's but one of a host of Hindu symbols. As a 'universal symbol of Hinduism', 'Aum' is far more applicable, and should serve the purpose without perpetuating the entire debate around the fate of those targeted by Nazis since the 30's. In short, I hope we can keep the acrimony and the righteous indignation at a level that allows us to productively address the issue of which symbol is more encyclopedic. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:15, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

IZAK: While Hitler's Germany has affected many of our families, as Ryan has stated, the swastika has been a symbol way before Hitler. As usual, you are getting way too heated and was extremely unfair to Dangerous-Boy who has graciously apologized to you so I suggest you accept it. You posted your opinion to several different editors instead of stepping back and calmly addressing the issue with the appropriate person. To be quite honest, you seem to be the only person that has a problem with this so maybe you are to one that needs to step back for awhile. MetsFan76 02:20, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Jewish talk objections

Hi: Since we are centralizing the discussion here, the following is posted here for other views on the subject:

From Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#Funny Swastika:

Take a look at these templates:

• {{Hindu Links}} (top left)
• {{Hinduism small}} (bottom)
• {{HinduFestivals}} (top right)
• {{Hindu Deities and Texts}} (top right)
• {{User WikiProject Hindu mythology}} (left)

with the displayed prominently. Honestly, of all of Hinduism's symbols' did this one have to get "headline" billing on these templates? Alternatives are aplenty if one were to look around on articles listed on {{Hindu Deities and Texts}} where there are dozens of less offensive symbols that could be chosen for the same purpose. While the swastika may be ok with some Hindus, it should not be flashed around "in all innocence" because for the rest of the world that was caught up in World War II it was the symbol of literal EVIL, DEATH and DESTRUCTION emanating from the Nazis. It was Hitler's personal diabolical "symbol of choice" and for that reason it is VERY far from neutral, no matter in what context it is used. It violates Wikipedia:Civility to have it displayed in such an "in your face" fashion on these Hindu templates, giving it a dubious "place of pride" it does not deserve. Need one say more? IZAK 22:58, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

It is a religious symbol, plain and simple. Not everyone in the world are racist or a Nazi. I understand that your hatred for what Hitler did is very passionate, but you need to stop looking at everything like it’s a plot against the Jewish people on Wikipedia. I'll admit that it's not a traditional-looking swastika which normally opens to the left. This is a Buddhist symbol.(Ghostexorcist 23:36, 4 January 2007 (UTC))

File:Hitlermusso.jpg

Benito Mussolini standing next to Adolf Hitler, do you see what Hitler is wearing on his "arm-patch"?

Hmmm: So what about the guy who posted [4] one of the templates ({{Hindu Links}}) on my talk page, what the heck did I do to deserve a "welcoming swastika" -- a totally absurd move -- either the guy lacks total perspective and he's clue-less or he is verging on truly "Dangerours" behaviour (note his user name: User:Dangerous-Boy -- obscured with "D-Boy"). Have you ever heard of the Holocaust many people associatete that, and not Hindusim, with the swastika, any swastika, so would it make sense to plaster an image like the one below on Hindu-related pages and templates? Tactless, pointless, and bound to create ill-feeling, right? Or what do you say, swastikas are like cute stickers? IZAK 23:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

IZAK, I think I understand and somewhat share your feelings, but IMHO you are overreacting here. Nazi swastika looked different and symbolized something very different. More importantly, I don't see an evidence of their intention to offend, and they seem to simply celebrate their religion. Perhaps more education/reconciliation is in order. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 00:37, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Humus: Thanks for your input, but for most people, even intelligent ones, "a swastika, is a swastika, is a swastika" -- I am not saying that the intention was deliberate, I am saying that this symbol is "too hot to handle" and that if they have better alternatives they should use it, as not everyone can stay calm and get educated about the nuances of swastikas when about 65 yeears ago their ancestors were murdered by the millions with hazy ("warm and fuzzy") swastikas fluttering all over the place... It's a two-way street, as we take our time getting educated (it may take about two thousand years) they also need to get educated about what it means to some other people who hate it for very good reasons. IZAK 01:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

From User talk:IZAK#Your objection to the swastika:

Hi, I saw that you raised an objection to the swastika in hinduism related templates. Although the swastika is widely used in India, I realize that it is inflammatory in Europe and the US, and perhaps other parts of the world. Although the swastika deserves a place in articles related to Hindu symbolism, I don't believe it adds significant informative content to the articles which are likely to include the templates you have identified. --BostonMA ^talk 23:16, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

• So are you agreeing with me that it serves no purpose and should be replaced on the templates in question with something a little more cheerful ? IZAK 23:19, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
• Like for example, see the guy who posted one of the templates on my talk page, what the heck did I do to deserve a "welcoming swastika" -- a totally absurd move -- either the guy lacks total perspective and he's clue-less or he is verging on truly "Dangerours" behaviour (note his user name: User:Dangerous-Boy -- obscured with "D-Boy"). Have you ever heard of the Holocaust many people associatete that, and not Hindusim, with the swastika, any swastika, so would it make sense to plaster an image like the one below on Hindu-related pages and templates? Tactless, pointless, and bound to create ill-feeling, right? Or what do you say, swastikas are like cute stickers? IZAK 23:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC):

File:Hitlermusso.jpg

Benito Mussolini standing next to Adolf Hitler, do you see what Hitler is wearing on his "arm-patch"?

As I said, the swastika is widely used in India. Religious books quite often have a swastika in the front pages. Many Hindus are quite naturally proud of their heritage and the thus wish to proudly display the symbolism that is associated with that heritage. Although there is a possibility that placing the swastika on your page was intended to offend, I think it is a stretch to assume that this possibility is what definitely occured. But the intent of the editor who left the template on your page aside, yes, I agree that it would be best to use a symbol which is not so inflammatory. Sincerely, --BostonMA ^talk 23:49, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh I am not saying that this symbol should be banned, on the contrary, let there be articles about it that explain what it means. Many people recall that it was the symbol of the Nazi Third Reich and all the pain, suffering and trauma that the world suffered under that symbol. Hindus are free to choose many symbols, they believe in many gods, I don't believe the swastika is the symbol of Hinduism and I do not think that it is in their interests to present themselves to the world (to many other non-Hindus) under such a horrible and horrid symbol of modern Fascism. IZAK 23:59, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I didn't say that the swastika was the symbol of Hinduism. However, it is one of the symbols of Hinduism and is widely used. It is unnecessary for us to decide whether "it is in [Hindus] interests to present themselves to the world under under such a horrible and horrid symbol of modern Fascism." It is only necessary to decide whether it is appropriate for Wikipedia to have swastikas which do not contribute to the encyclopedic purpose of providing a source of information. --BostonMA ^talk 00:05, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, sounds reasonable. As long as they change it soon on all those templates. IZAK 00:09, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I have placed a notice at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Hinduism[5] which is perhaps the best location for a discussion. If there are no responses, I will change the templates. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BostonMA (talk • contribs)

• Very good idea, I should have thought of that myself. But first I thought I'd get some feedback from users I know. Thanks. IZAK 00:30, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Izak, could we please not fragment the discussion into 20,000 different pieces? If you want to inform people of the change, that's great, but please do so by making a link to the central discussion at WP:HINDU, not by reposting all of your arguments there without any central discussion link. --tjstrf talk 01:22, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

• HI, I posted to about ten places, and I am done. I agree that the discussion should be central now. I will let them know. Thanks. IZAK 01:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Hi Izak. I've known about the swastika there for quite some time, and do not find it even mildly offensive. I think, in fact, that it's more than just a little bit disingenuous to decry a religion's symbology, especially one that has enjoyed importance across millennia, as a symbol of life, no less, just because one deranged asshole who was never even remotely associated with that religion, took an adaptation of that symbol as one of the emblems for his diabolical movement. That man, whose name doesn't deserve mention in this discussion, and the movement he led to power, used other symbols as well, notably eagles and crosses. The cross, one of the foremost symbols of Christianity, for what it's worth, is a much more objectionable symbol, given the hundreds of thousands of Jews who were put to death upon them. At the same time, unlike the swastika, the cross is emblematic of death, not life. I think the effort to remove the swastikas as they appear in perfect context in Hinduism-related articles, is in extremely bad taste... the censorship it reeks of is so much more emotionally-based than logically-based that if your recommendation succeeds, I will regard it as far more catastrophic to the intellectual integrity of Wikipedia than proliferation of genital piercing articles. Raq zuzayim sheli... Tomer^talk 01:49, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Hi Tomer: While you may be very relaxed about this, I had not known about the existence of this until today. Imagine my shock when I see a swastika glaring down at me "in warm greeting" on my talk page, what was I being invited to I wondered. And then I see it's "only" Hinduism. Well let me tell you, if I received an invitation in the mail from ANYONE with that symbol on it, I would get VERY upset (putting it mildly) as I am sure many people would, not just Jews, but anyone who lived through or knows anything about World War II would know. I think it's just telling of the times that with the passing of "the bravest/greatest generation" as Tom Brokaw writes about them, people feel "free" to start using symbols and ideas that would never have been allowed a decade or two earlier in this context. Sure for articles it's fine, use any symbol you like, even the cows and snakes that people worship, but a swastika? That throws me big time and I don't think that you should wave it off with an academic excuse. IZAK 02:04, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
      • The swastika has been a Hindu religious symbol for some thousand years. Claiming that it must be offensive in all contexts is highly ignorant of non-Western culture, and smacks heavily of censorship. --tjstrf talk 02:08, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

IZAK is nothing but a BIGOT! He just equated me to a nazi on the Judaism wikiproject because I told him he needed to be educated more on the subject of the Hindu Swastika. Then he pretty much said the Nazis sent to the Jews to be educated. Can you believe this guy? (Ghostexorcist 02:34, 5 January 2007 (UTC))

Talk of over-reaction. And don't misquote me! I didn't "pretty much" say anything the way you report. Here is what I said [6] "And I was also right that civilization cannot wait 2000 years to get educated. Some things are too painful and should not be abused or covered up with "education needed" that is the way all totalitarians reacted, they sent people for "re"-education"...IZAK 02:22, 5 January 2007 (UTC)" Nothing about Nazis, they did not bother re-educating anyone, that was the Soviets and Chinese way. And this was my next response to you: "No, I am saying that anyone who can casually dismiss objections to the use of swastikas, evidently does not care that much about what the swastika, any swastika, meant to victims, dead and alive, of the Holocaust. I cannot fathom why you attribute "equations" to me that I never made. I mean what I say, and say what I mean. Like "Tell that to the marines." I leave "equations" for mathematicians. IZAK 02:37, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

And then I called you a Bigot and a racist!(Ghostexorcist 02:51, 5 January 2007 (UTC))

And you see I am not mad at you! Stick to the points of the discussion and be rational. I need to do some shopping for Shabbat now. See ya! IZAK 02:57, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I oppose the removal of the Swastika of the template(s). I personally find it a little sad to see people wanted to censor a holy Symbol just because that in the west it is seen in horror. Also if you want to get technical the Hindu Swastika and the Nazi Swastika are compleatly different. Just look at the two and see the differences. Also (I don't want to come off as offensive because I am not intending it too.) What if a pacifist suggested the removal of the Cross from all the Christianity templates because it resembles a dagger? That wouldn't make to much sense, same with the Sikh Kirpan. In my view the same applys to here too. — Arjun 02:42, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Sure, keep them in, they bring credit and admiration for Hunduism... IZAK 02:49, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The cross is the UNIVERSAL symbol of Christianity that no-one disputes and everyone knows it was from (Roman) wood of two beams crossed to crucify people (so you are dreaming if you think it's a "dagger"), can you say the same thing about this Hindu swastika?, maybe someone wants to push that one more than a hundred other ones. No good pictures of golden Indian statues with six arms that are far more POSITIVELY indentified with Hinduism? IZAK 02:53, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Just for note, wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Meaning that this should teach that the Swastika 1. Was first associated with Hinduism 2. Has always been associated with Hinduism until the Holocaust. And in general teach us more about it. Please if you haven't done already scan through the Swastika article. This is encyclopedic. — Arjun 02:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Arjun: That is what the articles are for teach away. But to make it the official symbol of Hindusim on so may templates is not fair or honest when it is not "the" main symbol of that religion and it's offensive to most Jews and to Judaism, AFAIK. When I got a message [7] with that hated symbol on my talk page, it was a shock. I am not about to get re-educated about a symbol that was used by the mass-killers during the Holocaust. So it's a two-way street, you also need to get "educated" that this symbol, in any way it's depicted is despised by many people because, for better or worse, Hitler adopted it for the Nazis and then they flew it on their flag as they almost destroyed the civilized world. Do you want to be associated with that, or don't you care? It is not so simple as "religious this and religious that" excuses.IZAK 03:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure IZAK realizes that. MetsFan76 02:59, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh hi MetsFan: Fancy meeting you here! IZAK 03:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh trust me...there is nothing fancy going on here. I actually enjoy watching your rants. It's better than FOX News which probably isn't saying much. MetsFan76 03:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Cmon Mets, I know you have me on your watch list! What you call a rant others call brilliance! ;-} IZAK 03:18, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Of course I have you on my watchlist. There's nothing I like better than coming home from a long day at work and tuning in to the IZAK Channel. I think it should be made available to Cablevision subscribers. That way, everyone can see ignorance at its best. MetsFan76 03:23, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Mets: It's easy to sit around waiting for another guy to stick his neck out for something he really cares about and then play the caring outsider. So far, I haven't seen that you care about much of anything except you come around to discussions that I am involved with and start acting like some sort of self-appointed umpire. Go write something and edit articles you know something about instead of wikistalking me for no good reason. IZAK 06:53, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

IZAK, Once you read you will note that the Swastika has been used for centuries in many different countries...not just India. I find it offensive that everyone wants to remove it just because it was used in a negative way. — Arjun 02:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

• Arjun: As I said, getting offended is a two-way street. IZAK 03:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I find many of the responses to IZAK's (in my opinion legitimate) concerns offensive and insensitive in the extreme. However, in this case I will have to agree with Humus sapiens and Tomer. A religious group has the right to select its own religious symobols; and the fact is this symbol preexisted the Nazis and as used by the Hindu wikiprojects it does not seem to me to be offensive. I do note that historically the swastika has appeared in many cultures and many uses, including decoration on Jewish synagogues. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 04:04, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

• Hi Brian: And another religious group has the right to express its counter concerns which trample on its own very recent bloody history. Even some of the pro-Hindu editors here acknowledge that there other less controversial symbols and that the swastika is not the symbol of Hinduism. Thank you for your sensitivity though, while others here seem to sadly think it's a joking matter. IZAK 06:53, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

This is from one of the many templates that IZAK started the discussion on (my comment then his reaction):

Personally, I find the above comment offensive. The swastika used in these templates is of a form used for millennia in Hindu contexts, and to this day widely displayed in India. To deny Hindu people the use of their religious symbolism is POV, and given the fact that Hindus are overwhelmingly of Indian ethnicity, could be racist also. DuncanHill 23:18, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

You are offended?, how do you think the Holocaust dead and their families and people feel? Can you prove that this symbol has to be "the" symbol of Hinduism on Wikipedia when it is such a vast religion with so many symbols. There must be better choices that will not press others' red buttons? IZAK 02:28, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I am offended - and I'm not Hindu. I haven't said that the Swastika should be "the" symbol of Hinduism - please don't distort what I have said. Most of my Jewish relatives lost family during the Holocaust, and yet they all seem able to understand that the Hindu use of the Swastika is unrelated to its use by the Nazis. Please try to remember IZAK, that Wikipedia IS an encyclopedia, and not a vehicle for your POV on religions other than your own. The form of Swastika used on the Hinduism templates is significantly different in form from that used by the Nazis. Hinduism is indeed a vast religion with many symbols, but speaking from my experiences in India, the Swastika is very widely used, in some areas it is much more common than the Aum, in some areas less common. Perhaps if you learned a little more about the history of the Swastika as a symbol you would be able to understand that for billions of people over thousands of years it has had nothing to do with the atrocities of 12 years of Naziism. DuncanHill 12:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Heading break in Swastika discussion

There is one thing I need to point. You may get away in replacing the Swastik's with Aums for Hinduism articles, but the Swastik is the most important symbols in another religion called Jainism. Another note, if you see the Aum page, the first line says Aum (also Om or Ohm, ) is the most sacred syllable in Hinduism,... Syllable is not symbol. The symbol of Aum is not as important as the sound it represents. The sound is more holy than the symbol. The Swastik, on the other hand is famous and significant for its shape, read Swastika for proof.

Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia, ie. a place of knowledge/learning. When Europeans, Jew or Gentile, come to Wikipedia they should learn that the Swastik is used in many other contexts, not just for Nazis. They should also learn the Eastern Swastiks were different in design. They have four dots, are in red instead of black imposed on red and is turned 45 degrees. If you say the Swastik has no purpose on a template, that is the same for the Aum. Both should be removed in that case. Gizza^{Chat ©} 02:16, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Apart from Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism, the symbol is also in the emblem of Falun Gong, and probably many other sects. --Bondego 13:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

DaGizza, the aum 'symbol' (not merely the syllable) is far more prevalent and universal in Hindu culture than the swastika. That is a fact. Accordingly, it's more appropriate to be used as a symbol on general Hinduism-related articles. I repeat my request for you to undo your admin rollbacks. Jainism is an entirely separate topic and I'll be sure to learn more about it, now that you've educated me about the role of the swastika in that faith.

In addition, I repeat my request for you to answer why you said "I see that you are a Jew' on my user page. Why did you jump to that conclusion? That seemed rather racist to me, irrespective of my actual faith (which frankly is not your concern). -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:18, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

You do realize most Hindus like jews don't you?--D-Boy 02:28, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

• Mazel Tov! IZAK 07:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

That would be most Hindutvadis rather than Hindus... अमेय आर्यन DaBrood^© 09:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, how about this suggestion ? We replace the swastica symbol from the talk-page template (i.e. something that may be placed in userspace, such as {{Hindu Links}}without sufficient context) while retaining it in mainspace templates, wher it should be clear that the symbol being used is not the Nazi swastika. Any objections ? Abecedare 02:32, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Why change it b/c only IZAK has a problem with it? He is going off on one of his famous rants now anyway. MetsFan76 02:34, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I already aplogized to the guy on his talk page. It would serve no purpose to remove it. People would just be ignorant about the symbol for another 50 years. They still use in Latvia for decorations.--D-Boy 02:37, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

D-Boy...I saw the apology and it was very nice of you but wasn't necessary. You meant no harm. He needs to calm down. MetsFan76 02:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Mets: Kindly refrain from being a jerk, ok? No-one asked you to come along here and act the "referee", if you have nothing original to say about the subject keep your mouth shut rather than sit around and insult me. IZAK 07:09, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I an entitled to say as I wish. I have not resorted to name-calling as you have just did (which is a very idiotic move). You are right; nobody has to ask me to come along and put my two cents in. However, I happened to notice your comment and reacted. As I have said to you in the past, you need to calm down. You cause way too many problems in here. As for telling me to keep my mouth shut, maybe you should take some of your own advice because the only thing you are good at is giving people a headache. MetsFan76 13:22, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Lets not personalize the issue. The strength of the person making an argument is not necessarily reflective of the strength of the argument. If we decide on the change the symbol, it will not be because it is an inappropriate symbol, but because it can be unnecessarily hurtful when presented without context. Does anyone think the Hinduism welcome template will be any less recognizable or welcoming if it used Aum instead of swastika ? Taking the high-road (as D-Boy did by apologizing even though he intended no ill-will) is not a sign of weakness IMO Abecedare 02:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

It's definitely not a sign of weakness. I thought what D-Boy did was commendable even though IZAK hasn't responded to it yet. MetsFan76 02:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Again Mets, no-one asked you to be the judge here. Get a life. IZAK 07:09, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Again IZAK, watch the name-calling. How old are you? MetsFan76 13:22, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I think IZAH's points are more of a reason to keep the swastika rather than to change it. As a matter of fact the symbol is a central one to Hindus, and he and others must appreciate that. The narrow sense of history and culture that westerners have cannot justify the censorship being proposed by him. It is important that this censorship be opposed. Should Hindus here not be upset that a symbol central to their religion is being censored because some idiot in Germany adopted it for his fascist party? Is it not being implied that how the Hindu views that symbol is being dismissed by the western-oriented editors here? Tfoi 02:49, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Tfoi, anyone who has no clue about how Hitler and the Third Reich are intertwined with the swastika has no sense of history themselves. This a very serious matter which you fail to grasp. IZAK 07:09, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I like Abecedare's suggestion above. Personally, the Aum symbol has more meaning for me than the swastika anyway. And for me the Aum symbol is a meaningful symbol. Context is also important, and placing the swastika without explanation in userspace isn't appropriate. When someone comes to a userpage and sees, what is for them, a symbol of oppression and genocide, they are right to be offended. Folks - keep in mind that people are not being offended by Hinduism, so let's not take it personally. ॐ Priyanath talk 03:05, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, Priyanath. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The welcoming template says "Hinduism" fairly prominently, the swastika is obviously different in style from those used by the Nazis, and nothing in the template has anything to do with Nazism. It seems clear to me that the symbol is not meant to represent the Nazi party. I guess I will make a semiotic argument here - there are three parts to any message: the sender, the message, and the receiver (apologies to semioticians - I know that's a gross over-simplification, and even partly wrong, but I'm at peace with it). Here the sender clearly wants to communicate something unrelated to Nazism and the message does communicate something unrelated to Nazism. So the problem, to me, is that the receiver has decided that anything with this symbol is "offensive," even if it's otherwise clear that the message was not meant to offend - the receiver has added meaning that the sender did not want, that the message does not otherwise contain, and that the receiver probably knows the message is not meant to contain.

So that's what it boils down to for me - do we allow one group to dictate the meaning of a symbol used by another group, even where the group using it does not assign it a similar meaning and opposes the assignment of that meaning? (Or, to put it another way, do we let Jews tell Hindus that they can't use a Hindu symbol because of something a "Christian" did?) I don't think we can - it's unfortunate that some people add meaning to a swastika that it doesn't deserve, and thereby co-opt what should be a religious symbol. But, to me, that's an argument for more use of swastikas of this type. Hindus should be allowed to "reclaim" their symbol - it's theirs, not Hitler's. But they can only do that if they can use it - and use it enough so that it rids itself of that horrid other meaning. (Of course, if this is truly not a symbol representative of Hinduism, as some have argued, then it shouldn't be used - but because it doesn't communicate the core message, not because it's offensive.) --TheOtherBob 03:01, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Hindus have lots of choices they don't need a swastika as their main "PR-logo" -- are there any swamis in the house? Why doesn't India have a swastika on it's flag?, it's a Hindu nation, they are smart enough not to do dumb things it seems. IZAK 03:14, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

You are missing the point. To Hindus, the symbol means something different. Who are you to question them? MetsFan76 03:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Mets: Insulting me, and not contributing to the debate is pathetic! IZAK 07:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

IZAK: Hmmm more name-calling. I'm starting to see a pattern. Is this how you actually debate when it's clear you realize you are wrong? MetsFan76 13:22, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

IZAK:Talk about offensive I find that post offensive and I am not Indian! — Arjun 03:16, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

• Also I am pretty sure that the government of India is secular. Read the article. — Arjun 03:19, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
  • You spoke those words out of my mouth Arjun! Yes, the bond between Hinduism is not the same as Israel and Judaism. And we don't have an Aum on our flag either :) We have a Buddhist chakra. The word Swastika comes from su and asti and literally means well-being. Gizza^{Chat ©} 03:24, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Sure, the swastika leaves everyone with a sense of "well-being" -- maybe it's a good slogan for some movement we haven't heard of yet. IZAK 07:09, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I am not Hindu. I am not Indian. I had family put in Nazi camps during that war. It sickens me too. However, I am stunned that what seems to me to be over-political correctness is taking a symbol that only vaguely resembles the Nazi symbol and trying to ban it! From another culture! As I have said repeatedly on WP, the Indians fielded the largest volunteer military force in WWII to fight the Nazis and end the Holocaust. Of their own free will, even though they were still under the British thumb and not too happy about it. They still volunteered. And died. Lots. In foreign lands to free another people. So it is a bit much to imply somehow that the Indians here (or other cultures that use the swastika as well) are somehow responsible for its misuse for a handful of years, after it has been used around the world for thousands of years. There are even a few Jewish temples/synagogues in buildings built before the war that have the swastika as part of the building design, if I remember correctly from a documentary I saw. And the buildings were not demolished and the symbols removed. The Rabbis etc were glad to keep them there as a sign of defiance, that they were not going to be pushed around by some tyrant and his misuse of this symbol! So...I ask those who are so upset about it here that they are removing it from OTHERS pages that they slow down and think for a moment. Two wrongs dont make a right you know...--Filll 03:15, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

• Filll: No-one is removing anything from anyone's pages, this is a discussion about the pros and cons about a hated symbol for some and a beloved symbol for others and how to resolve it on Wikipedia AS A WHOLE. IZAK 07:09, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

An encyclopedia shouldn't censor itself to accommodate for the ignorance of mediocre minds that can't be bothered to appreciate history or culture outside of the western hemisphere. I don't mean to be rude, but I find it curious that IZAK refuses to take the time to be sensitive to the Hindu sentiment on the issue (and I would say he demonstrates exceptional insensitivity when he throws pictures of Hitler and holocaust victims around to make his point on this issue), while demanding that Hindus yield and discard the swastika symbol and all it actually means. His argument and its approach is insulting to Hindus and Hinduism, which is strange thing from him considering he thinks he is speaking from the perspective of a people who were persecuted for their religion. It is something to be taken personally. I would think one of the very best things about this online encyclopedia is the depth of knowlege that originates from all parts of the world, rather than the western-only material you could expect from Encarta or other sources. Even if people are offended by this symbol (so far I don't see other Jews throwing a fit over this) they can take the time to familiarize themselves with the positive uses of that symbol in the distant past. The gained knowlege will surely outweigh that initial second or two of surprise, and is better than telling Hindus here that their religious symbol is too controvercial for untrained non-hindu eyes. I also detest self-censorship as much as I detest adminitratively enforced censorship.There is a reason why censorship is looked down upon in civilized societies, which is that it perpetuates misinformation and stereotypes. We must'nt yield to IZAK's demands for such censorship, but rather make him feel obliged to acknowlege the older meaning of that symbol. Hindus aren't Nazis. Tfoi 03:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

• Tfoi: Do Hindus really care if there is a swastika on Wikipedia to represent them, don't they also want to avoid to be classified with Nazi symbols? IZAK 07:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Hindus volunteered by the millions to fight the Nazis, and died saving Jews.--Filll 03:20, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

• And now you want them to march under the Nazi's symbol, what kind of logic is that? How many Jews did the Hindus save by the way? Did they let them into India at any time? IZAK 07:09, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Leaving aside the urban elite and Brahmins, the aum is a distant second to the Swastika in importance as the religious symbol of Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, and other religions, representing almost every third person on earth. This is perhaps the second most revered symbol in the world after the Christian cross. It would be a pity if we have to censor its use on wikipedia for whatever reason. deeptrivia (talk) 03:23, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
    • I'm sorry but that's simply untrue. The swastika is absolutely not the second-most-revered religious symbol in the world.
    • The swastika is NOT a universal, major Hindu symbol - it's a minor one and is secondary to the Aum. Using swastikas so prevalently to represent Hinduism is unencyclopedic. That's why the use of the Aum is recommended in its place - not entirely, but in such a way that it reflects the centrality of the Aum in Hindu culture, a place which the swastika does not occupy. The 'Jewish' issue is a real concern and we have a duty to our readers to provide context, but potential offense of our readers is not the sole, nor even the most encyclopedic, rationale for replacing the symbol. This is not a Hindus-vs-Jews issue! It's about encyclopedic value, not about potential offense or censorship. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:25, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
      • Sorry to sound lame but that didn't make sense Ryan. I would think it would be unencyclopedic to remove it! We should be teaching the world what the truth is, not to hide it under the blankets just because it was used in a negative fashion. Also I may very well agree with Deeptrivia, the Swastika is used pretty much in all Dharmic Religions. — Arjun 03:28, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
        • I'm not stating we should remove it - as I've said nearly a dozen times now. The use of a swastika on WP to represent Hinduism should be proportionate to its use within Hinduism. Other faiths are another matter. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:32, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

No one wants to offend. But no one should be offended. If I go to a foreign country with different hand gestures that represent something unsavory in my own culture, should I get upset? No of course not. It is part of understanding that all cultures are different, and the symbolism is different. They are using that hand gesture to mean something completely different. I would be crazy to be offended by it.--Filll 03:30, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Please come to India, especially to the villages where 70% of the Indians live to compare the relative importance of the two symbols. The swastika overwhelmingly outdoes the Aum. Aum is the most important syllable, a sound, but certainly not the most important symbol. Understandably, it cannot be expected that western media would feel free to display it as a part of Asian culture until the taboo and paranoia (or the symbol itself) dies out. deeptrivia (talk) 03:36, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Not the case. Just a cursory review brings us:

"Aum (also Om or Ohm, ) is the most sacred syllable in Hinduism, symbolizing the infinite Brahman and the entire Universe" - WP.

"The most important symbol in Hinduism, (the Aum) occurs in every prayer and invocation to most deities begins with it." -- [8].

"The primary symbol of Hinduism is the Aum" -- [9]

Come on, folks. Let's be encyclopedic and not object, or support, the swastika out of religious pride nor paranoia. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:41, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the question is whether the Aum is more important than the Swastika (a question I doubt we will ever answer), but rather whether the swastika is a symbol that Hindus might reasonably use for their religion, and understand to represent their religion. Given that it is "considered extremely holy and auspicious by all Hindus" (according to our wikipedia article), I wouldn't be at all surprised that they would choose to be represented by such a symbol. So the question, then, is whether that choice is so entirely wrong-headed as to be unencyclopedic - whether the claim that "the swastika represents Hinduism" is false because the swastika is only a distant or miniscule part of Hinduism. I don't see any evidence of that - everything I've seen says that it is important, even if other symbols are more important (which, as I said, I doubt we'll ever resolve). --TheOtherBob 03:53, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Well for starters, A LOT of people look down on wikipedia for its inaccuracies. Who are you going to trust a couple of english webpages that may not be written by actual practitioners or someone who is hindu and actually lives in the country of origin. There is a HUGE difference between a "symbol" and a "Syllable" - picture vs. sound. (Ghostexorcist 03:48, 5 January 2007 (UTC))

They do indeed - and this situtation is one reason why they might be justified in doing so. And I think you realize that individual expertise is not the criteria on WP... citations are. Deferring to another editor's expertise due to their ethnicity is not a WP policy, nor even a good idea. I'm familiar with the difference bet. Symbols and Syllables, thanks. That's why I made the citations I did. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:51, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

If the swastika is so vile and repulsive, why is it being used in a wall hanging in this town in israel in this photo? --Filll 03:43, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflicts) As deep said, the Aum symbol does not hold too much importance. It comes from the Devangari script, which is used to write Sanskrit and Hindi. It was only created in the last 1000 years. Hinduism hsa existed for much longer than 1000 years and before then it was the Swastika that was easily the famous. And please read Swastika. It is not only, Nazi and Hindu. It has been present in so many civilisations around the world. Gizza^{Chat ©} 03:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

"The Aum symbol does not hold too much importance."? That's patently and blatantly false. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

That is what I said earlier, the Swastika has been used by many different civilizations. — Arjun 03:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't mean to offend anyone and I admit I haven't read the WHOLE of this discussion, but here are my two cents. I find it extremely narrow minded of the Swastika removing users, as they are not being at all considerate of others religions. Just because Hitler used the Swastika does not mean Hindus are banned from it. Tomorrow some random terrorist may use the Star of David to launch their own genocide against Hindus and I for one will not be removing any religious symbols and I would urge my fellow Hindus to not do so because it is important to respect others religions. You cannot justify removing Swastikas because there are other symbols available, it is important to Hindus, you need to respect our religion, the Hindu swastika does not have any relation to Nazism, end of story, I urge everyone to revert such removals of Swastikas quickly. Nobleeagle ^[TALK] [C] 03:49, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Here is another photo from a place called synagogue lane, in a town in india called Cochin. The neighborhood where this picture was taken was called "Jew Town" (not sure I am too comfortable with that name myself, but anyway) because so many Jews used to live there. Most have left and it is mainly occuppied by Muslims now. No Jews ever complained apparently. It is not a big issue.--Filll 03:50, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

You know that if Hitler had won, he would not have been particularly gracious towards the Hindus. You think he would have thought they were part of the Master Race? Even though many of them ARE the real Aryans. I don't think that would have made a bit of difference to Hitler. He got rid of everyone he thought was defective. Jews. Slavs. Catholics. Gays. Lesbians. Gypsies. Etc.--Filll 03:53, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Besides, the swastika is a "must" for any Hindu celebration or ritual, without which no religious activity can be considered auspicious. This is common knowledge, but here's a reference:[10]. deeptrivia (talk) 03:54, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The very same reference makes clear that "As the cross is to Christians, the Om is to Hindus. It is made up of three Sanskrit letters, aa, au and ma which, when combined, make the sound Aum or Om. The most important symbol in Hinduism, it occurs in every prayer and invocation to most deities begins with it.". Why, then, would you prefer the swastika to the Aum in terms of encyclopedic value?

Regardless of the circular discussion and in any case, I've made my points and I don't wish to repeat myself. If the community cannot divorce the issue of encyclopedic value from fervor, it can't address this issue properly. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:57, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I read somewhere that Hitler thought Hindus were impure because of their contact with Dravidians, meaning they lost their Aryanness and may have been attacked in time (as they were controlled by the British back then). Nobleeagle ^[TALK] [C] 03:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The only way to reclaim this symbol is to let those people it was stolen from have it back! Lets not be terrorized by that tyrant from over 50 years ago, now dead and gone --Filll 03:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

• They can have it back, but why does the rest of the world have to swallow it? IZAK 07:09, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

More distracting fervor. My kingdom for a level head! -- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:59, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I do not know how important any given symbol is to anyone else. But this is over the top. This will make Jews on WP feel better to remove this important symbol from Hindus, so their materials on WP, which is an ENCYCLOPEDIA by the way, not some sort of politically correct club, will be less historically and culturally accurate? We should vandalize Indian/Hindu culture, and those of about 20 or 30 other cultures around the world, so that we can pay tribute to a Butcher from 50+ years ago? Because that is what you are doing. You are honoring his memory by hating that symbol. It is becoming like a fetish to do so.--Filll 04:03, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Now that's just misstatement. Who hates what again? Are you clear to whom (and about what) you're talking? 'Cause you ain't talking to me. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 04:04, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Aum and Swastika are two different things that are hard to compare but easy to confuse. Aum is a syllable, the Swastika is a visual symbol. No syllable is as important as Aum, no visual symbol is as important as the Swastika. When it comes to choosing a symbol for a template, the most important visual symbol takes precedence over one among many visual depictions of the most important syllable. deeptrivia (talk) 04:05, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Aum is indeed a symbol and it is indeed the most important symbol in Hinduism. Aum represents Hinduism, and the swastika represents auspiciousness, as have I cited above. Here's another:

"Aum, also written "Om" and called pranava, is the most important Hindu symbol. Om (Aum) – the most important Hindu symbol, often used as the emblem of Hinduism (see above)." [11]

Don't patently misrepresent the truth. Cite your views.-- User:RyanFreisling @ 04:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I think this can all be solved without discussion: Wikipedia is an Encyclopedia. Lets learn together, — Arjun 04:16, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Aum and Swastika cannot be compared, since they are different things. For templates, we need a visual symbol which the Swastika is. Aum can be visually represented in many ways. Members of Arya Samaj don't accept the symbol people in the West normally see. They write it like this: ओ३म. The Swastika is perhaps the only universally accepted visual symbol of Hinduism. (The syllable Aum is doubtlessly universally accepted, but not any of its visual depictions.) deeptrivia (talk) 04:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Aum is no less a visual symbol than a swastika, is more central to Hinduism, and has the added side benefit of not being contentious enough to have generated this kind of debate. I don't see where the encyclopedic value of rejecting it for the swastika comes from. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 04:19, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I think you're missing something here - this isn't a question of whether to remove the aum and replace it with the swastika. The template contains both, right? So the question is whether the swastika is inappropriate there and should be removed - whether it is such a minor symbol that it is not truly representative of Hinduism. In that regard, see my earlier response to your comment (by now buried in this thread). --TheOtherBob 04:30, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

There are a number of templates involved, not just one that has both symbols. My point (which has been consistent since I became aware of this debate today) is that the frequency with which we use the Aum and the swastika on these numerous templates should be representative of each symbol's importance and centrality within Hinduism. Using the swastika on a majority of the Hinduism-related templates doesn't reflect the relative importance of each - it emphasizes the swastika to a degree not representative of it's importance to Hinduism - as it is a symbol of auspiciousness, not a smbol of Hinduism. The point that the symbol was co-opted by the Nazis is a massive complication, but it's not the central issue to me. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 04:36, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh yeah, I agree that it is a massive complication, but it's also clear that it's not the central issue. Part of this debate - the part about which symbol is more "important" to a religion - seems to me off-base. (If the balance is not struck correctly, after all, we could always add more aums rather than removing swastikas. And I would take the individual templates one by one.) What I think your evidence shows thus far is that the aum is important, which is fine. But what I think you need to show is that the swastika is not representative of Hinduism. Your point about it being a symbol of auspiciousness rather than Hinduism is a good start in that direction - but it seems that others strongly disagree. Can you provide citations for that idea? --TheOtherBob 04:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I am grateful for your good faith. I'd disagree that we should be adding more aums to offset swastikas... my contention is that we should use them in proportion to their importance. I've not wavered in that view. Last, to my recollection, all the citations I've provided make clear that the swastika represents not Hinduism, but auspiciousness. The last two certainly make that point crystal-clear. Again, I'm grateful for your good faith, and not assuming I'm coming from a hateful place. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 04:51, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, I certainly am assuming good faith, and hoping you're finding this discussion healthy. There are no symbols that represent Hinduism as such. Aum does not represent "Hinduism", which was a term introduced by the British for convenience in the census about two centuries or so ago. Both Aum and the Swastika are sacred in all Dharmic religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism) deeptrivia (talk) 05:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I dont think anyone is going to convince anyone here. I think we need to step back and consider this carefully. take a deep breath and lets try to come up with some forum to resolve this issue.--Filll

After all, this has gone on for almost 4 hours. You think it will be better after 10? 50?--Filll 04:23, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I seriously doubt that this can be resolved. As the views on both sides of the discussion are probably going to stay the same. — Arjun 04:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I get the feeling you just don't want the Swastika and are rejecting everything presented to you simply because you don't like the Swastika, not because you want to improve the encyclopaedia. Don't you get it, Swastika's a symbol, Aum is a sound. Nobleeagle ^[TALK] [C] 04:22, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

It is both. Care to provide citations to support your view? I've provided nearly a half-dozen that make clear Aum is a symbol - the most important symbol (not just sound) in Hinduism. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 04:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I would personally be loathe to lecture another culture about the meaning of their ancient and sacred symbols like the swastika. Tolerance of all things, except intolerance. And the behavior to ban the swastika in this case is more like intolerance. Even Germany which bans all Nazi symbols has made the symbol of the persecuted group Falun Gong exempt, and it includes a big swastika in it.--Filll 04:37, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

As would I. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 04:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Definatly true, read the Upanishads. Aum is a Sound. — Arjun 04:23, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

And a symbol. And as is clear, the Aum symbol represents Hinduism, while the swastika represents good fortune. It should not be misused as 'the' symbol of Hinduism by using it a majority of Hinduism-related templates. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 04:36, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Besides, the particular depiction of the syllable you propose came to existence earliest by 1200, but most probably just a few centuries ago. It certainly doesn't mean to Hindus the same thing as the Cross or the Star of David. Swastikas, on the other hand, have been found in India since the Indus Valley Civilization. deeptrivia (talk) 04:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

File:Triseal.jpg

Indus Valley Seals. The first one shows a Swastika

Pictures speak much louder than questionable citations! (Ghostexorcist 04:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC))

The antiquity of a symbol does not replace its meaning. The image, while fascinating, does not substantiate the claim that the swastika is most important, or most represents Hinduism. So far, the only citations have been those supporting my view - you're welcome to provide citations stating that the swastika is the most holy symbol of Hinduism. I look forward to learning from the results of your efforts. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 04:57, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

It does prove that the Swastika had importance in even the foundations for Vedic society. Nobleeagle ^[TALK] [C] 04:59, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Which is uncontested. it doesn't speak to the actual issue, however - whether the swastika itself represents Hinduism (it does not). -- User:RyanFreisling @ 05:01, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

There are no symbols that represent Hinduism as such. Aum does not represent "Hinduism", which was a term introduced by the British for convenience in the census about two centuries or so ago. Both Aum and the Swastika are sacred in all Dharmic religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism) deeptrivia (talk) 05:02, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

And the moksha turns and turns. I have provided citations establishing that the Aum is the central, most important symbol of Hinduism (the English word), the most important symbol that represents Hinduism. You're welcome to provide contradictory sources if you have them. Similarly, I'll be up on campus this weekend and will be researching this issue in greater detail, and will be happy to provide non-internet sources - whether they support or contradict my view. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 05:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

"Symbol" is a vague word with various meanings not appropriate in the context. It's be more specific about it. We need visual motif(s) to go on templates. There's no law saying we can have only one. The argument for removing the Swastika was that it is minor/insignificant when compared to Aum. Your task when you research on it is twofold. Try finding references that justify that (a) Aum is a visual motif, and (b) Swastika's importance in Hinduism is insignificant compared to Aum. deeptrivia (talk) 05:14, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry but requiring that we re-parse the meaning of symbol into 'motif' and requiring me to establish the swastika is insignificant are equally ludicrous. Still waiting for a single cite from you that establishes your view - the cite you did provide (originally my cite) supported my view more than yours (see above re: Om and the Christian Cross). -- User:RyanFreisling @ 05:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

A symbol need not be visual, it can be a sound. Symbol can be a lot of things. But we need visual symbols on the template. deeptrivia (talk) 05:21, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Seventh time now. Aum IS a visual symbol, and it's already on numerous Hinduism templates - just not in proportion to its importance. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 05:23, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to have to bother you, but could you provide references on the visual nature of Aum's symbolism? deeptrivia (talk) 05:24, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

You mean like "Brahman, in itself, is incomprehensible so a symbol becomes mandatory to help us realize the Unknowable." and "Its similarity with the Latin 'M' as also to the Greek letter 'Omega' is discernable.", etc.? Or "As the cross is to Christians, the Om is to Hindus." and "As the symbol of piety, Om is often found at the head of letters, pendants, enshrined in every Hindu temple and family shrines."? [12]-- User:RyanFreisling @ 05:51, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

No, the symbolism of the sound is not debated. I meant the particular visual motif you are proposing "" over other depictions of Aum and the Swastika. deeptrivia (talk) 05:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

'the particular visual motif I am proposing'? I'm proposing we use the existing Aum graphic. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 06:12, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Right, that one. Objections can be raised on why it is chosen from among various other depictions, etc. I know it is already being used without any problems thanks to peoples' tolerance. deeptrivia (talk) 06:15, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I see the question of 'which aum' to be highly tangential to this debate - but if you have objections to the current 'aum' symbol, raise 'em. Show us other citations describing the 'motif' of other depictions and why they should be preferred... but I see this as a deflection from the issue. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 06:20, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The point I am trying to make is that this particular visual shape (or any other visual representation of the syllable) is not as universally accepted representative of Hinduism as the Swastika is, despite the fact that the syllable Aum is indeed one of the most important symbols in Hinduism. deeptrivia (talk) 06:24, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Seriosly Deeptrivia is right, please. I recomend you read the Upanishads, as the symbol is not described at all. It is a syllable. And usually the Symbol is used to describe the Syllable. — Arjun 05:27, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Wow, this has turned into a serious discussion, where's User:MetsFan now, doesn';t he want to add something when the good juices are flowing? IZAK 07:09, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I missed out. Being on the East Coast it was starting to get late and I have to work in the morning. But I did read everything written here and honestly IZAK, I'm just going to sit back and watch you keep putting your foot in your mouth so I really don't need to say anything. MetsFan76 13:22, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

User:IZAK's arguments dont hold water. It is not upto him or anybody to tell me what is holy for me nor interpret its importance for me. Obviously the guys who put swastika in the template knew of its centrality to Hinduism (every Hindu house bears a Swastika). My name is "Amey Aryan", i'm forced to sign my name in Devnagri becuase last year some guy wanted me banned for using "neo-Nazi signature". Though this is a small discomfort i can put up with, i see changing templates is taking this too far.

With all heartfelt sympathies for the editor objecting "Swastika" on tameplate as it causes pain to him/her for Nazis' use of similar sign, I would say that should a proposal come for banning the use of character/characters "N", "Na", "a". "z", "Naz", "i" and the word "Nazi" as they might too remind some editors of Nazi's killing few decades ago? swadhyayee 02:22, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Swastika Section Break 2

Just because Aum is the most sacred doesn't mean that we should completely throw out the Swastika. — Arjun 05:09, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely correct. Again, I contend the two should be used in proportion to their relative importance within Hinduism. Currently, the swastika is used far more frequently on WP templates than the two symbols' relative importance within Hinduism (as I've established with citations) would dictate. And all the fervor and revert warring to maintain the swastika is counter-productive to being encyclopedic. I still haven't seen a single citation claiming the swastika is a more important symbol than Aum. Again, SYMBOL - not syllable. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 05:12, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

As far as I know the Aum is used just as much than the Swastika in the Hinduism templates. Or they are used both in the templates. — Arjun 05:15, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

How do you propose to quantify the relative importance of the two? deeptrivia (talk) 05:16, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Aum is a sound, not a symbol as such. Already said above, some Hindus write Om differently to other Hindus, so we lack uniformity. Are these your sources? [13] [14]. I've never really favored about.com but anyway, the article treats it as a symbol only once but otherwise talks of it as a syllably that represents Brahman while it says clearly:

Swastika is not a syllable or a letter, but a pictorial character in the shape of a cross with branches bent at right angles and facing in a clockwise direction. A must for all religious celebrations and festivals, Swastika symbolizes the eternal nature of the Brahman, for it points in all directions, thus representing the omnipresence of the Absolute.

In your other source. It says The swastika is considered extremely holy and auspicious by all Hindus, holy as well, not just auspicious. And please read this article The swastika is as holy to the Hindus, Jains and Buddhists as it is evil to people from the West. and goes on to discuss it which should cool the people who put pictures of concentration camps up there. Nobleeagle ^[TALK] [C] 05:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry but no one is arguing the swastika is not holy to Hindus. That is not disputed. If you can provide a citation that the swastika is MORE holy than the Aum, I look forward to reading it. I have provided multiple citations establishing that the Aum SYMBOL is more important and more holy than the swastika. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 05:21, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

That is not the point at all. Why remove one just because it is not as holy as another, it is just not logical. — Arjun 05:23, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Again, no one is saying it should be removed. It should not be used to excess, however - independently of the fact that it is such a controversial symbol, it is not the symbol most representative of Hinduism - the Aum is. Currently, the overuse of the swastika is misinformative. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 05:26, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Aum is a syllable, Swastika is a symbol (groan), do Tamil people write Aum differently? In that case can someone write it in Tamil. Why are you so intent on getting rid of the Swastika anyway? We're going on a 5 hour discussion as to whether a symbol of Hinduism should be on Hinduism templates or not. Nobleeagle ^[TALK] [C] 05:28, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, we do not have a ranking system for symbols in Hinduism. So it would not be possible to prove one holier than the other. Besides these are two entirely different things as pointed out again and again. deeptrivia (talk) 05:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I do believe the above discussion is off-track; but perhaps RyanFreisling, you'd take a look at these templates that display only the Aum symbol and not the swastika:

• {{Hindu_Holy_Cities_in_India}}
• {{Hindu_philosophy }}
• {{Hindu_scriptures }}
• {{Hinduism_footer_small}}

Does the use of these templates now "balance out" the contended "overuse" of the swastika symbol ? ... or do we need to gather statistics for the number of times, each template is wikilinked ? Abecedare 05:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Very good links Abecedare, those templates are some of the most used Templates relating to Hinduism and...they are without Swastika. — Arjun 05:40, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Aum in Tamil lanugage

Okay here we go this is retrieved from teh Aum article.

Aum (also Om or Ohm, ) is the most sacred syllable in Hinduism, symbolizing the infinite Brahman and the entire Universe. This syllable is sometimes called the "Udgitha" or "pranava mantra" (primordial mantra), because it is considered by Hindus to be the primal sound, and because most mantras begin with it. It first appeared prominently in the Vedic Tradition. As a seed syllable (bija), it is also considered holy in Esoteric Buddhism.

This can not be described anymore clear that it is a syllable. — Arjun 05:36, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

That does NOT state that Aum is NOT a symbol. It is a SYMBOL as well as a syllable. They are not mutually exclusive. Do you see that?

Aum, also written "Om" and called pranava, is the most important Hindu symbol"

"Om (Aum) – the most important Hindu symbol, often used as the emblem of Hinduism (see above)." [15]

"Aum (also Om or Ohm, ) is the most sacred syllable in Hinduism, symbolizing the infinite Brahman and the entire Universe" - WP.

"The most important symbol in Hinduism, (the Aum) occurs in every prayer and invocation to most deities begins with it." -- [16].

"The primary symbol of Hinduism is the Aum. Indeed, so sacred is it that it is prefixed and suffixed to all Hindu mantras and incantations." -- [17] -- User:RyanFreisling @ 05:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC) and

"Second in importance only to the Om, the Swastika, a symbol which look like the Nazi emblem, holds a great religious significance for the Hindus. " [18]

The Aum image is linked 501 times on Wikipedia and the Hindu Swastika image is linked an 500 times. Note this includes talk pages, statistics came from Image:Aum.svg and Image:HinduSwastika.svg. Happy? Nobleeagle ^[TALK] [C] 05:38, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Talk pages don't really figure into it. I think we'd be best served to know how many templates employ each. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 05:43, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Om in East Asian Buddhist scripts and Devanagari respectively:

唵ओम

Nobleeagle ^[TALK] [C] 05:41, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The problem won't stop there. The question then will be, which of those template are the most important, most used, etc. I can't see the motivation behind carrying on this whole exercise. A case can easily be made for using the Swastika everywhere because of its visual and universal nature. deeptrivia (talk) 05:49, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

A stronger, identical argument (which is actually backed up by citations, as WP requires) can be made for the use of the Aum symbol, with the added bonus of not alienating or offending millions of people. I'm not making it, since I don't want the swastika scoured from WP - but the argument you've made has vacillated from 'Aum is not a symbol' (it is) to 'the Aum symbol is not important' (of course it is). Let's ground this discussion in fact, as provided by WP:RS and WP:V. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 06:01, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, Aum is a symbol, no doubt, but we need visual symbols to go on templates, not just any symbol, like an audio symbol, although an ogg file with Aum might be a nice addition to the templates. The importance as a "representative" symbol of Hinduism is certainly overrated in western literature. It is very important to those who practice yoga, or chant mantras as priests, although even they cannot carry on any rituals without the swastika. For common masses the aum is not as commonly used as the swastika. Swastika is the people's symbol, and Aum is more of an elitist symbol, and more importantly, the Swaskita is "visual". Also, it is hard to find good articles on Hinduism on the internet, so don't go too much by them. deeptrivia (talk) 06:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

This discussion is insane in both its length and its lack of focus. The core issue is whether or not it is appropriate to use a swastika to represent Hinduism. All the blatherskyte about who might be offended because some unbalanced dickwad from another religion chose to misappropriate an alteration of one of Hinduism's most sacred symbols, is...in a word, irrelevant. Can Wikipedia maintain its integrity allowing a swastika to serve as a symbol of Hinduism? I think the answer is yes. Can Wikipedia maintain that integrity by "censoring" the swastika as a respected, if not universal, symbol of Hinduism? I'm pretty sure the answer is a resounding "hell no!", all due apologies to anyone who might find that offensive. Dwelling on the interests of minority groups, such as Arya Samaj, for example (a philosophy with which I'm well familiar, given untold hours of discussion with my Arya Samaj-adherent boss), is really not particularly important in the grand scheme of this discussion. With all due respect to IZAK, with whom I've had more than one disagreement in the past, but still regard as a rational editor, despite this emotionally-motivated "motion" on his part...I think this entire discussion is misbegotten in the extreme. I empathize w/ IZAK regarding the shock he received getting a swastika plastered on his talk page, and with RyanFreisling who lost family in the Sho'a. So did I. I feel, however, that it would be a desecration of their memory to give the mastermind of their deaths, may his name, and those of his ardent followers, be rubbed out, power beyond the grave to dictate human expression forevermore. Tomer^talk 06:02, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Shilo - excellent post. If individuals actually take the time to read my argument rather than misattribute a false perspective (two individuals posted to my talk page asking why I 'want to remove the swastika from WP' - which I of course do not - it should be quite clear that we are in agreement. Good night all. Have fun and please assume good faith! -- User:RyanFreisling @ 06:28, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Tomer has it right - this argument has gotten far out of hand and was likely unnecessary (at least at this scope) in the first place. Izak can't be blamed for being shocked and disturbed when a large red swastika was placed on his talk page, despite no ill intent by the poster, but it's going too far to call for the removal of swastikas from Hindu-related articles for reasons outlined in great detail above. I tend to agree with those who have suggested that it be removed from the welcome template solely to avoid future misunderstandings - it is in no way out of place or inappropriate there, but replacing it with another symbol (RyanFreisling's suggstion of the Aum is a good one) wouldn't compromise the integrity of the template in any way. As for the presence of the swastika on other pages and templates, that's something that should be left up to members of the Hinduism project to decide, since they obviously have the most knowledge and respect for the subject.

What's especially unnecessary is the villification of other editors that is rife in the discussion. Both sides have valid points to make; both have a strong emotional background to their arguments. No one is being unreasonable with their core arguments - some responses may be strongly worded, but that's only a reflection on the strength of feeling. Taking offense because of a perceived slight is counterproductive, assume good faith unless it's obviously intended as a personal attack, in which case it'll be obvious to everyone. This has potential as a fascinating inter-project discussion on emotional response to symbolism, so let's not waste the opportunity! Dbratton 13:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Tomer: The "unbalanced dickwad" you refer to was none other than Adolf Hitler who was the instigator of World War II and the Holocaust, glad to see you're over it all, but history and humanity move a lot, lot slower than that, and not all of us are ready to willingly opt for early cultural alzheimers and spiritual senility. IZAK 07:15, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Aum vs Swastika question

In order not to go back in circles and get waylaid by tangential issues, Ms. Freisling can you please let us know:

1. What should the "proper" ratio of use of Aum vs Swastika should be ?
2. How we should determine usage?
   1. Count the number of templates that use each symbol ?
   2. Furthermore, weigh that by the number of times these templates are linked on wikipedia articles ?
   3. Still furthermore, weigh that by how many times those pages are viewed ?

I don't mean to be facetious; simply wish to detremine whether we have an "oversue" problem and if it is resolvable. Thanks. Abecedare 06:32, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The templates I was aware of used the two symbols in relative equal proportions - and the symbols are not of equal importance. Moreover, one of the symbols is capable of causing grave offense. That would lead an objective individual to utilize them carefully - which appears not to have happened thus far. The claims raised in defense of the swastika have, at times, been as ludicrous as the claims raised to condemn it. I only request that we UNDERSTAND both symbols and their context and make informed, objective decisions. It's not a numerically quantifiable thing - it's a process of good judgment. Dismissing the symbol's impact is as harmful as censoring it. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 06:36, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the potential offense that might be cause due to someone ignorant of the symbol's importance in Hinduism, or unwilling to accomodate for it, I want to ask if being politically correct is justified as a policy on wikipedia? deeptrivia (talk) 06:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Being considerate is not political correctness. I still think it would be prudent to replace the swastika in the user-space welcome template, while leaving it in in the other templates where the article provides the context. But I repeat myself ... :-) Abecedare 06:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

One can consider the effect of one's words, deeds or symbolism without being condemned as 'politically correct'. That term implies that the potential offense is politically motivated, rather than based in fact. As an example, it's not politically correct to avoid calling Jews 'kikes'... it's just considerate. Dismissing my observation as 'political correctness' is an attempt to nullify the validity of the impact the symbol has. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 06:49, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I would agree that since the user welcome template comes to any user unexpected, and someone might be ignorant about the symbol, or has bad memories associated with it, the swastika could be removed from that particular template on grounds of compassion (rather than justifications such as it is minor/insignificant). There should be no objection to its use anywhere else, though. deeptrivia (talk) 07:01, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Removing the swastika from the welcome template is not necessary, but may be a good idea simply so that we can get rid of the most obvious cause of disturbance and move on. Removing it from any of our article-space templates is absurd, unnecessary, and unacceptable. We have no burden to censor ourselves as a means of appeasing the irrational who cannot wrap their minds around other uses of symbols than those to which they are commonly accustomed. --tjstrf talk 07:05, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Agree except to say that removing it from an article-space template might not be absurd or unacceptable if another image is more effective. Removing it solely to avoid offense is indeed absurd and unacceptable. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 07:09, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Look, I can't believe such a debate can get so long. Answer me this Ryan, why would putting Aum instead of the Swastika improve Wikipedia when both are symbols of Hinduism. Why are we going to go to the trouble of digging up templates so that we can put things in one users interpretation of the right proportion? If political reasons are set aside, this debate is pointless, too long and doesn't need an end result because the end result won't help or harm Wikipedia whichever direction it goes. Nobleeagle^{TALK C} 07:12, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

And you have edited this userbox to get rid of the Swastika. Now why are we changed userboxes? Why are we going to go to all the trouble of changing userboxes? Does the proportion of symbols apply to the userspace as well? I really believe there is a political undertone to this regardless of what everyone says. Nobleeagle^{TALK C} 07:14, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

This should not be such a troublesome issue. Template:Messianic Judaism is astronomically more disturbing... Tomer^talk 07:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Forcing everyone to remove the swastika from their userbox is probably not the best thing. It's their choice to put it up or not. Creating a second box for those who prefer the Ohm (or simply setting a variable that can switch the two at will) is a good idea though. (For me, the most disturbing part of Template:Messianic Judaism is how WP:OWNish a lot of the deletion supporters have been on TfD, but that's just my view.) --tjstrf talk 07:23, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, not to drag that argument here, but the most disturbing part of "that" debate is the extent to which so little thought goes into votes on both sides...something that I think is reflected here as well. The majority of "delete" votes "there" are based on knee-jerk reactions, and the majority of "keep" votes are based on either completely uninformed [or misinformed] opinions about what's going on (mostly by people who haven't bothered to invest more than 12 seconds of research into the issue, as is evidenced by their comments), or by impassioned defenders of the template by people who, SHOCKINGLY! {not!} are "Messianic" Jews. The reason I brought it up here, however, is because of the dismal parallels between the two. Here, the loudest voices screaming "keep the swastika!" are the ones who are obstinately refusing to listen to the slightest murmor of rational for dropping it anywhere, to say nothing of everywhere. The [one] voice demanding its removal thus far, which has been silent for the past 6 hours or so (which hasn't kept his most vociferous detractor from dragging his name into practically every post) has also not been especially willing to listen to argument from "the other side", but has been conspicuously silent, obviating his willingness to let the editors from the Hinduism wikiproject deal with the issue w/o his continued interjections. One might aptly say IZAK stirred up a hornet's nest with this, but the striking thing is that the hornets with the least rational positions are the ones still buzzing around making the most stink about it, to the point where they're actually picking fights with people who, on a sunny day, they wouldn't have said anything but the kindest words. This is getting on the verge of "out of hand", and a few people around here need to seriously review what their arguments are, and whether or not they're actually making sane arguments, or whether or not they're tilting at windmills, which is, in my humble estimation, 90% of where this discussion has gone... Tomer^talk 07:36, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Ideologically, my support for the swastika here is based mostly on a strong justgetoveritalready leaning as regards pretty much all historical conflicts. Long cultural memories propagate strife, and wars and racism go on today on the basis of "their" greatgreatgreatgreatgreatgrandparents doing something to "our" greatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgrandparents, in an absurdly protracted international game of Hatfields and McCoys. What has been done has been done, looking backwards on it constantly accomplishes nothing. It would almost be refreshing if the official statement of justification for the next aggressor state was simply "we're doing it because we want your land and money", rather than an emotional appeal to something from generations or centuries ago. If people let a single tarnish on the otherwise peaceful history of a geometric design make it taboo for the next century, then I have little hope for humanity. --tjstrf talk 08:13, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

So, you're saying you prefer the Nazis' Lebensraum approach? Tomer^talk 08:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking more along the lines of Genghis Khan actually... --tjstrf talk 08:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Genghis Khan sought only power and demanded only tribute. What you described is far better encompassed by the philosophy I cited. Neither of them are what I would regard, personally, as justifiable rationales for war, especially not genocidal wars...something Genghis Khan didn't pursue, but the nazis did...but I think this thread is going a bit afar from the actual topic at hand... Tomer^talk 08:37, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I do not consider them valid justifications in any way, merely less harmful in the long term than governments teaching racism to support wars. --tjstrf talk 08:42, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

If I might distract you for a moment, can we stick to the subject at hand? Tomer^talk 08:50, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

User:IZAK's arguments dont hold water. It is not upto him or anybody to tell me what is holy for me nor interpret its importance for me. Obviously the guys who put swastika in the template knew of its centrality to Hinduism (every Hindu house bears a Swastika). The fact that a dozen Hindus on this page are affirming to the centrality of Swastika should be enough for anyone. My name is "Amey Aryan", i'm forced to sign my name in Devnagri becuase last year some guy wanted me banned for using "neo-Nazi signature". Though this is a small discomfort i can put up with, i see changing templates is taking this too far.

I am aware of Jewish sensitivities vis-a-vis holocaust, but it about the time people stopped dwelling in history. Yes I know how it emotive these issues are, I am a Hindu Sindhi, most of my maternal side of family was murdered during Partition of India...

P.S IZAK as for your 'q' about India and Jews, check Judaism in India, Jews have been in India for over 2000 years, one of the few places where they havent encountered anti-semitism. We even had a Jewish General who played a big part in Bangladesh War, see [19]. अमेय आर्यन DaBrood^© 10:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC) अमेय आर्यन DaBrood^© 09:42, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I guess I should not be surprised to see this going on so long. So confusing, so undirected. Both sides have some points to make, but I still find it amazing to want to go in and censor another culture that has existed for thousands of years. It basically strikes me as bullying.--Filll 13:40, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

General reply to MetsFan76: your policy of following Izak around Wikipedia for the purpose of disagreeing with and belittling him at every opportunity is juvenile and inane. While he may react badly to you, one can scarcely blame him - I know that I would get extremely tired of having a tagalong shadow commenting disparagingly on so many of my edits. If you have something to contribute to the discussion, please do so. If you're just here to pester Izak, you're bringing down the discussion for everyone. Dbratton 13:43, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

First off Dbratton, I am not going around "following IZAK". I happened to notice this debate and joined in. While IZAK was going around making a scene and bringing in other editors, he was, at the same time, attacking D-boy. That was juvenile and inane. Second, IZAK is constantly "bringing down discussions" by simply overreacting everytime someone disagrees with him. Wikipedia is not a dictatorship. Things can't change because he wants them to. That's why I got involved here. And for him reacting badly to me, he reacts bad to most people that have different views from him so I think he is the one with the problem; not me. MetsFan76 14:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Your edit here[20] seems to contradict you. Either way, your responses to Izak have been unnecessarily confrontational and don't contribute anything to the discussion but ill will. If you have a position to support that doesn't involve degrading him, by all means do so. Dbratton 14:21, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Following him and having him on my watchlist are two separate issues. I have many editors on my watchlist because I like what they have to say. IZAK is a different story as he has a tendency to degrade many editors because he disagrees with them. I don't think that is fair. Furthermore, I don't feel that I have to explain myself to you, however, I will think about what you have said. MetsFan76 14:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I have another couple of examples for you:

• The Klu Klux Klan uses crosses frequently to represent themselves (burning crosses on lawns etc). No one thought that crosses should be abolished based on this however.
• The star of David was used to represent very bad things by the Nazis. Did the Jews discontinue its use afterwords?
• The pink triangle was issued by the Nazis to mark those homosexuals to be executed. They have instead recaptured this symbol for their own use and are proud to display it now.
• The red cross was not used in Muslim countries, and instead a red crescent was used to avoid offending Muslims. The red cross itself did not disappear in the cultures it originated in. Now the red cross and red crescent are displayed together on many materials of the Red cross and red crescent society. Neither symbol was given up by either community, although obviously the red crescent has negative meanings in some places. It was decided to live and let live and not let the past dictate censoring the others symbols.
• There are synagogues and temples around the world that still have swastikas displayed for historical reasons, since they were part of the building etc before the Nazis. I saw a documentary and the Rabbis said they would not knuckle under to this Tyrant and his misuse of this symbol, that Jews were stronger and more defiant than that.
• To stop using this symbol is to retire it, almost to honor it, like to stop using a players number in soccer or some other sport when they have done a superlative job. Do we want to honor this Tyrant's misuse of the symbol?
• This is an encyclopedia, about knowledge and learning. And this symbol is important knowledge about another culture. Lets not censor it.
• I point this out particularly knowing more Hindus died voluntarily fighting the Nazis, and to stop the Holocaust, than any other group on earth. Hindus welcomed Jews to India millenia ago. There is no animosity between Hindus and Jews here. And we should not be trying to create it with senseless censoring.--Filll 13:57, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

• • Personally, it seems to me that the swastika is relevant for usage here. If the members of the project deem it to be the most appropriate symbol, than by all means they could continue to do so. While I can acknowledge that some individuals might have reservations about it for some other external reasons, I believe that any attempt by one interest group to try to coerce another group into unilaterally withdrawing support for what may in fact be their single most holy symbol (given the different written forms of the "aum" syllable in different languages) would show profound disrespect for the people who do view the image as holy. I also note that the image is present on the banner of Wikipedia:WikiProject Jainism as well, and on the sidebar for all articles which fall in the Jainism series. The swastika has a long, proud, significant, and honorable history within Hinduism and Dharmic religions in general, and I cannot see why this project should be coerced into abandoning possibly their single most holy symbol because of another, outside, group. Badbilltucker 14:14, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh my. Yes, that swastika does look like a nazi symbol and I'd have been pretty alarmed if I got one on my talk page. Yes, that's my western preconceptions reacting, but come on, this is the en wiki, we're mostly from English-speaking countries here, and those preconceptions are going to be widespread. Imagine there's a religion whose members traditionally greet each other with the word for "peace" in their religion's ancient language. And by some ironic coincidence, the word for "peace" in that language happens to be "fuck". So they make up a welcome template and start leaving messages on new users' talk pages saying "Fuck, new user!!!! Welcome to Wikipedia!". You can see the problem here, that due to those misguided western preconceptions, these messages are going to be pretty jarring. Now up the ante from mere apparent vulgarity to something that (if misinterpreted the obvious even if incorrect way) appears to allude to legalized mass murder and things get ugly.

Come on folks, try to apply some sensitivity to this--communicating effectively with other humans has to allow for the present-day contents of their minds and not just what the symbol meant 100's of years ago. Don't hold out for that symbol if the Aum symbol can be used instead. In the places where you do use it, whenever possible, explain its significance and its venerable history and that it's unfortunate that the nazis ripped it off before springing it on the viewer. Yeah, it really is unfortunate, it's a very cool symbol that's going to have this stigma for a long time because of the nazis, but Wikipedia user-talk pages really aren't the right place to launch a political project to reclaim it.

Regards 67.117.130.181 14:50, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Well the Swastika first of not spammed on everyones talk pages. IT is not like it is the symbol used in the welcome messages. It is used on the templates that welcome users to the Hinduism related content world. Most people understand that this Swastika is of Hinduism nature, not just there to scare you. Once again if you want to get technical compare the nazi swastika with the Hindu Swastika. They are differnt. — Arjun 15:01, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

As humorous as 67.117.130.181's contribution is, I will point out that Wikipedia is not just an American project, or an AngloSaxon project. Wikipedia is a world wide project. And there are more Hindu speakers of English than every other speaker of English combined, probably. They do not have as much access to the internet yet, but they will. So your argument of numbers and westerners etc just does not hold up (and I am writing as a Westerner and nonIndian and nonHindu who had family in the Nazi camps as well and Jewish heritage). So if we censor EVERY cultural icon and symbol that is offensive to someone anywhere, we will end up with a far less useful and far less interesting resource. Have you ever looked at Wikipedia? Do you know how much offensive stuff is here? There is not just a tiny amount, I assure you. As distasteful as some of it is to me, I think that Wikipedia would be far less useful if we censored as you are suggesting. For example, the cross and the star of david might be offensive to some, So might the hammer and sicle and the rising sun and the crescent and star. And many many other symbols and images and words and concepts. Should it all be censored? What will we have left after all that? We are stronger and have a more useful and interesting product if we include ALL of it, offensive or not. The Hindu swastika represents a teaching opportunity to put the past behind us. This is a teaching venue, an encyclopedia. Let the teaching begin!! Just make sure you are willing to learn. --Filll 15:09, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

At the risk of being inflammatory, I would like to emphasize a point that seems to be lost. Wikipedia is an Encyclopdia. Editors, of whatever religious, ethnic, or political background don't have "rights" regarding how particular articles, templates, etc. appear. It is not a right of the followers of LaRouche to determine the content of LaRouche related articles, or Scientologists to determine the content of Scientology related articles, or Jews to determine the content of Jewish related articles. Nor is it a right of Hindus to determine the content of Hinduism related articles. Obviously, a member of a particular group may well have more expertise related to that group than other editors. A member of a group may have greater interest in writing about topics related to the group than other editors. But a member of the group may also have strong POVs or a desire for self-expression or "group"-expression, which is not found in other editors.

The central purpose of Wikipedia is to provide information. Arguments about "censorship" are inappropriate to Wikipedia unless we are talking about censorship of information, or censorship of editors communicating with one another. When there is no question of suppressing informative content or of suppressing communication between editors, it is inappropriate to raise a hue and cry about censorship of a group's right to express itself. As far as the content of Wikipedia goes, groups have no distinct right to self-expression.

If we allowed religious groups self-expression, then mentions of the Muslim prophet Muhammad would be accompanied with "Peace be upon him", for that is how Muslims show their respect for Muhammad. It is important for those unfamiliar with Islam to learn how Muslims show their respect for Muhammad. And we have articles for that purpose. We don't need to distribute that lesson throughout Wikipedia. The Swastika is most certainly a widely used symbol in Hinduism (and other Dharmic religions). It certainly has a different meaning when used by Hindus than when used by Nazis. That lesson is brought out in a number of Wikipedia articles. However, that lesson, also, does not need to be distributed throughout all of the Hinduism related articles.

However, this dispute is finally resolved, I sincerely hope that we can shift the debate from some of its current focal points. Sincerely, --BostonMA ^talk 15:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The lesson argument was a side comment, an added benefit being pointed out, not the main reason why the swastika needs to be on templates. I don't think adding the most important visual motif in Hinduism on the templates compare at all with the PBUH stuff. deeptrivia (talk) 16:05, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Without erupting the debate again, I still haven't seen any citations to establish that the swastika is 'the most important visual motif' in Hinduism. I'd be interested to read (and learn from) such a source. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 16:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I can't find any specific sources right away myself. However, it is indicated in the Swastika article, particularly the Swastika#History section, that the swastika is an ancient religious symbol dating back to the days of the Indo-Europeans (which is seemingly why Adolf Hitler appropriated it). The article also indicates that the swastika is to be found in African and Native American cultures, which could indicate even an earlier start. Generally, speaking from some degree of knowledge of cultural anthropology/history of religions, the more ancient the symbol, the higher regard it is held in, as more stories and legends have accrued around it. Badbilltucker 16:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I think it is irrelevant for this discussion whether it is the most important symbol in Hinduism, or the 2nd most important, or the 3rd, and in which contexts is it important. It is obvious it is important, and not the 50th or 100th most important symbol in Hinduism, that we can agree on. That is probably partly responible for it having being chosen by that Butcher. --Filll 16:18, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Should we demand that Phuket Thailand change its name to avoid offending anyone? Bangkok Thailand? And many other places? Should we demand that Beijing still be known as Peking because we are more familiar with Peking in Western culture?--Filll 16:21, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Here are some other Nazi symbols. Should they be banned too?

• [21] Life rune, used in pagan religions
• [22] Valknot, used in pagan religions
• [23] Othala rune
• [24] Tyr rune
• [25] Celtic cross (maybe by Nazis but by KKK)
• [26] Kiss band logo, which has S's resembling sig runes, the SS bolt symbol of Nazis; recall that Gene Simmons is an Israeli-born Jew. Is this an example of a Jew reclaiming and appropriating a Nazi symbol for his own use, to render it powerless? Like black americans using the word "nigger"? Like homosexual males using the words "fag" and "queer"? Like lesbians using the word "cunt"?--Filll 16:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

As pointed out previously, no one is proposing a ban on the use of the Swastika, nor is anyone proposing that Hindus change their symbols. Therefore the argument about what to do about Phuket and the rest serves to inflame passions, but doesn't address the actual proposal. Please try to address the arguments that are actually raised. Sincerely, --BostonMA ^talk 19:13, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

About Polling

Polls are intended to take a survey - not to establish consensus. Please see the guidelines, at WP:POLL and Wikipedia:Discuss, don't vote. Specifically:

Straw poll guidelines

Editors considering an article-related straw poll must remember that polling should be used with care (if at all), and should not invoke straw polls prematurely. Note that straw polling cannot serve as a substitute for debate and consensus; that no straw poll is binding on editors who do not agree; and that polling may aggravate rather than resolve existing disputes.

Straw polls regarding article content are often inconclusive and sometimes highly contentious. In order to have a chance of being productive, editors must appreciate the following:

1. The ultimate goal of any article discussion is consensus, and a straw poll is helpful only if it helps editors actually reach true consensus.
2. For that reason, article straw polls are never binding, and editors who continue to disagree with a majority opinion may not be shut out from discussions simply because they are in the minority. Similarly, editors who appear to be in the majority have an obligation to continue discussions and attempts to reach true consensus.
3. For the same reason, article straw polls should not be used prematurely. If it is clear from ongoing discussion that consensus has not been reached, a straw poll is unlikely to assist in forming consensus and may polarize opinions, preventing or delaying any consensus from forming.
4. Similarly, if a straw poll is inconclusive, or if there is disagreement about whether the question itself was unfair, the poll and its results should simply be ignored.
5. Once responses to a straw poll have begun, even minor changes to the phrasing of the poll are likely to result in an all out battle over whether the poll itself was fair. Consider proposing straw poll language several days prior to opening the actual poll to responses, and beginning the poll only once you have consensus on the precise question to be asked.
6. Core principles, such as NPOV and article sourcing, are obviously not subject to straw polls. People have been known to vote on a fact, which is ultimately pointless.
7. Editors should exercise extreme care in requesting that others participate in a straw poll. See votestacking and campaigning.
8. The purpose of a straw poll is to stimulate discussion and consensus. Editors should evaluate the explanations that the participants in a straw poll offer, and should see if those explanations help to develop their own opinions or suggest compromise. In this context, a few well reasoned opinions may affect a debate much more than several unexplained votes for a different course.
9. In the context of Wikipedia articles, straw polls are most helpful, if ever, in evaluating whether a consensus exists or in "testing the waters" of editor opinion among a few discrete choies such as two choices for an article's name. Even in these cases, straw polls may never be understood as creating a consensus, but merely as one tool in developing a mutual and voluntary consensus.
10. Straw polls should not be used excessively. If a straw poll was called on an issue recently, there is usually no reason to call a second poll, even if you think that consensus may have changed or that the first poll was conducted unfairly. If you disagree with the "majority" opinion, simply remember that the straw poll is not binding and continue discussions.
11. The words "vote", "voter" and "voting" should be avoided because it will convey the wrong impression about a straw poll. Better words are "straw poll", "participant" and "discussion".

Thankyou for going over stuff that I already commented on in the "Consensus" section that you locked. (Ghostexorcist 00:44, 6 January 2007 (UTC))

Which you then reverted and another editor deleted again. This is a classic incorrect use of a poll and is decidedly unproductive, only less so than your original poll idea. What was at first your dumb idea (using a poll to hopelessly try to establish consensus rather than survey what is already known) is still a dumb idea now. And check it again - I didn't lock anything. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 00:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

And that comment comes from the guy preaching good faith and civil attitude. What you did was vandalism. Don't get made because people are wanting to protest the change. We all know it's not binding. It just shows who wants what where. (Ghostexorcist 01:03, 6 January 2007 (UTC))

So shall I archive the new one as well? --tjstrf talk 00:52, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Not up to me, I hold no more power or authority than any other editor - I've simply held myself to the standards of WP: not personalizing the dispute, backing up my perspectives with verifiable facts, considering and attempting to understand the perspectives of others and working towards reasonable and encyclopedic consensus. I have to oppose this ill-considered poll if I'm going to continue to do the best to work within the guidelines of WP. I

If it were up to me, we'd continue to discuss it, to try to address what appear to be continuing concerns that this discussion is motivated by racism or insensitivity to Hindus - and avoid polls assiduously. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 00:58, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Obviously not just up to you, but having at least a couple people in agreement as to the applicability of an idea is a good thing. I'll take that as a yes. Also, we really need to figure out some way of specifying which sections here are still active. --tjstrf talk 01:03, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any reason to stop discussing it just because there's a poll available. We are still free to hash anything out separately, and should do so. While it wasn't my idea to have this poll, I'm not opposed to it - this discussion had gotten unmanageable, and it was difficult to figure out who was arguing what. (I actually stopped when I was edit conflicted 8 straight times - that was enough for me.) It was nice to have short, plain statements of where people stood on this one particular issue. (For example, it turns out that a lot of the people who were arguing vehemently about more general points were nonetheless not opposed to the proposed action. That's useful to know, and may help build consensus.) And although it didn't happen, it could have been the case that although people disagreed on the more general issues, they all agreed to take the proposed action. Had that been the case, and we had all been in agreement, it could have saved quite a lot of back and forth. In any case, this poll isn't an end to discussion - it's a tool for discussion, and should be the jumping-off place to further conversation.--TheOtherBob 01:10, 6 January 2007 (UTC) (3x EC'ed)

Another straw poll

I disagree with the characterization of these as "failed" straw polls. They weren't votes, but rather discussions to see where the debate was and how close we were to consensus. In that vein, I'd call them helpful. --TheOtherBob 01:12, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I'll remove the word from the headers. However, they were unnecessary and at least the first one was definitely set up as a vote, not a discussion poll. --tjstrf talk 01:16, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Another patent misuse of polls. Polls are not discussion and have decidedly different results, often exacerbating problems when used incorrectly. WP:POLLS, Wikipedia:Discuss, don't vote. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 01:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

archiving

I'm going to archive this page in a couple of days.--D-Boy 17:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks, and I hope the argument above ends by then. :) Badbilltucker 17:14, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

• I support this entire discussion being archived soon. There was no consensus, in either of the straw polls, or in the equally good discussions here, to remove the swastika from even the talk template. Further discussion isn't going to change that. Let's respect the views of the community, and move on. ॐ Priyanath talk 01:23, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it is just my imagination, but I think the combined outrage and reasoning by numerous people seem to have drowned out the opposition. Maybe they are not convinced, but maybe they are resigned or at least not quite so sure that their arguments will carry the day.--Filll 17:43, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I've made my argument and I still haven't seen a single citation to establish the swastika as the symbol of Hinduism. I've provided a half dozen independent sources that establish the fact the Aum symbol is a more important symbol of Hinduism than the swastika. However, if fervent, repetitive and sealed-ear screams of 'censorship' like yours should triumph over logical arguments of relative value of the symbols in question, so be it. WP is ever changing and nothing is permanent. Wabi Sabi. There's always tomorrow. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 17:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Why must you say this over and over. Even if the Swastika isn't the main symbol of Hinduism why remove the Swastika. That would be like removing all the images from templates except for one. What do you have against the Swastika? Also many born Hindus here have stated that it is a very, very important symbol. Why ignore them? — Arjun 17:55, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I have not argued for removing the swastika outright - my argument has been clear and consistent. Utilizing the swastika on WP to represent Hinduism should be in proportion to whether the symbol actually represents Hinduism, and to what extent other symbols represent Hinduism. The issue of the offense other individuals take from the swastika should also be considered in the equation. Loud cries of 'don't remove it' or 'censorship' seem to me to be conscious efforts to distract the debate, in order to preserve the symbol... irrespective of its' encyclopedic value.-- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:02, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Ryan, I don't think that there's any question that the Hindu Swastika is one of the main symbols of Hinduism, and in the opinion of some, the main symbol. There has been more than enough emotion on both sides (I agree that cries of 'censorship' are emotional in this context, but I also think that your emotions are not allowing you to see that the swastika is a main symbol of Hinduism). I think that it's best to put this to rest, and keep the symbol as is. My personal preference is the Aum symbol, but enough Hindus have said they want to keep the swastika on that template, and in other places, that it should stay. You'll also see that if you click on the image of the Hindu Swastika, there is a very good explanation of its religious significance. This gives it proper context, and will help to educate people who want to learn - which is the purpose of an encyclopedia, after all is said done. ॐ Priyanath talk 18:08, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Obviously, on WP Hindus are not in any way more privileged to decide the issue than non-Hindus. And I myself provided a link establishing that the swastika is 'second only to the Aum' in religious importance. Please do not falsely discount my argument by claiming I am denying what I myself have taken the time to cite. The swastika is a very important (and very controversial) symbol, the Aum more important and far less controversial. This should be a basis of learning, not defense of religious pride or ethnic 'ownership' over symbols (Hindu or Hebrew). In any case, I believe the disagreements here belie the fact that in essence, many of us are saying the same things... and a few of us take very extreme and distorted positions like 'censorship' and 'swastika = Nazism'. Both extreme positions are wrong. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:15, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Ryan, I was responding to your statement above: I still haven't seen a single citation to establish the swastika as the symbol of Hinduism. Hinduism is unlike other religions. I doubt that there will ever be one main symbol of Hinduism. Or one that could be called the symbol of Hinduism. For some Hindus, it is the main symbol of their religion, and since this is an encyclopedia, it's an opportunity to educate people about that. In fact, that's been happening (education, that is) in this discussion, for some people. ॐ Priyanath talk 18:25, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed - but I've provided citations that state that the Aum symbol is the symbol of Hinduism and have seen none that make the claim that it is not. WP is driven by citation, not by individual views asserted loudly without support. I do look forward to learning more about the issue and I am grateful for your cool head and wisdom. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:27, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The response I have is not so much about it being the "main" symbol of Hinduism, as perhaps, given the wide variety of beliefs in the Hinduism "tent", one of the few, if not the only, universally recognized symbols of Hinduism. The weakness of the various "aum" symbols is in the fact that they are in one language or another, which not all Hindus see as being of the same value. Also, I really have to question, at least to myself, whether such a horrific misuse of an older symbol, such as happened to the swastika, really should make the use of the symbol such a subject of dispute. My first reaction would be to try to use it more, not less, in the hope of trying to better inform people about its original real use, not the easy shortcut it has become in much of the more popular, less encyclopedic, media. And, again, if there is a strong negative, possibly basically emotional, reaction to such a symbol, maybe we should try to work quite a bit harder to try to restore it to its original, more positive, symbolic usage. And, I once again mention that the symbol is not only used by Hindus, but also clearly by Jains, as per the Jainism page and its project banner. Badbilltucker 18:21, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

In my humble opinion. using the symbol more, not less, in hopes of desensitizing or educating individuals about the symbol (especially in light of the use of the symbol by the Nazis) would be a serious violation of WP:POINT. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:24, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree, but the Swastika isn't used more than AUM. — Arjun 18:26, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I hope you're right. The results of my cursory scan (combined with the serial reverting of the three templates I changed - which I have not re-reverted) said otherwise. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

He hee, I find it kind of Ironic that we are discussing this on the talk page of WP:HINDU. Look at the project page and you will find about 7 Aums, and 0 Swastikas. — Arjun 18:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I noticed that too. Of course besides the template, the majority of the other Aums appear to be inline, addressing the issue of symbology. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Ryan, what exactly do you think is the solution.nids(♂) 18:32, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Pretty much what I mentioned above: The templates I was aware of used the two symbols in relative equal proportions - and the symbols are not of equal importance. Moreover, one of the symbols is capable of causing grave offense. That would lead an objective individual to utilize them carefully - which appears not to have happened thus far. The claims raised in defense of the swastika have, at times, been as ludicrous as the claims raised to condemn it. I only request that we UNDERSTAND both symbols and their context and make informed, objective decisions. It's not a numerically quantifiable thing - it's a process of good judgment. Dismissing the symbol's impact is as harmful as censoring it. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:34, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

And seeming to blame the symbol itself for an impact on people which the symbol itself had no part in is clearly an attempt to establish a point-of-view. The symbol is not in and of itself harmful, but only its specific usage by one small group. And basically telling one group of people that they have to be on guard because of offense which might be taken by another group could be seen as being offensive as well.Badbilltucker 18:41, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Indeed - blaming a symbol for the acts of those who murdered millions beneath its banner would be wrong. But denying or minimizing the real and lasting impact the use of the swastika in the 20th century has had would be far more harmful. Let's not do that. Let's also not pit Hindus vs. Jews. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I too think that it is irrelevant whether Swastika is the most, or 2nd most or ... holy symbol in Hinduism. But since lack of citation attesting its importance has been raised as an issue, here is a quote from Encyclopedia Britannica [27] (emphasis added):

"The word is derived from the Sanskrit svastika, meaning 'conducive to well-being'. ... In India the swastika continues to be the most widely used auspicious symbol of Hindus, Jainas, and Buddhists. Among the Jainas it is the emblem of their seventh Tirthankara (saint) and is also said to remind the worshiper by its four arms of the four possible places of rebirth—in the animal or plant world, in hell, on Earth, or in the spirit world."

Again, I readily concede that this is not necessarily the universal opinion, and given the big tent of Hinduism, other sources will claim that aum is more widely used. Also we can get into technical arguments whether "most widely used" implies "most important" and vice-versa - but hopefully (optimism reigns supreme! :-) ) we won't get further distracted. Abecedare 18:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Just as an aside - thank you very much for the citation. However, the link you provided doesn't contain that text. What I saw on that page was "The swastika as a symbol of prosperity and good fortune is widely distributed throughout the ancient and modern world." Not as a symbol as Hinduism per-se. Is there a link I need to click? Do I need to be amember? Again, thank you for making an effort to provide citations. Most appreciated. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:49, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the source does need institutional access or paid membership. But I hope you'll assume good faith in my not misquoting. Abecedare 18:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I'll see if I can get an account as a student. Honest thanks, and no, I don't doubt your citation... good faith is well-warranted. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:54, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I quoted the 2nd paragrph from the source above. Here is the third. The remaining two deal with Buddhism and nazism and I'll refrain from quoting those keeping fair use considerations in mind:

"The Hindus (and also Jainas) use the swastika to mark the opening pages of their account books, thresholds, doors, and offerings. A clear distinction is made between the right-hand swastika, which moves in a clockwise direction, and the left-hand swastika (more correctly called the sauvastika), which moves in a counterclockwise direction. The right-hand swastika is considered a solar symbol and imitates in the rotation of its arms the course taken daily by the Sun, which in the Northern Hemisphere appears to pass from east, then south, to west. The left-hand swastika more often stands for night, the terrifying goddess Kali, and magical practices."

Abecedare 18:55, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The symbol Ganesha is a symbol also used very frequently in the beginning of accounting books, etc. to bring good luck. And the Aum symbol is used in the same way, as I cited above. Perhaps we should open the field to more symbols if that's a reasonable criteria for use to represent Hinduism on WP templates.

As above, here's another new cite that discusses the role of the Aum 'SYMBOL', it's visual meaning and use:

"The Symbol OM (AUM): Just as the sound of Om represents the four states of Brahman, the symbol Om written in Sanskrit also represents everything. The material world of the waking state is symbolized by the large lower curve. The deep sleep state is represented by the upper left curve. The dream state, lying between the waking state below and the deep sleep state above, emanates from the confluence of the two. The point and semicircle are separate from the rest and rule the whole. The point represents the turiya state of absolute consciousness. The open semicircle is symbolic of the infinite and the fact that the meaning of the point can not be grasped if one limits oneself to finite thinking." [28]

Food for thought. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

If you do look up EB, also check out the article on Om [29] , which clearly labels it a syllable tracing its use to the Upanishads and Puranas. The only mention of symbol in the article is in the following sentence: "From the 6th century, the written symbol designating the sound is used to mark the beginning of a text in a manuscript or an inscription." This again, is provided only from a "for your information" persepective - IMO this syllable/symbol distinction is tangential to the debate. Abecedare 19:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed - but I would point out that the discussion of OM as a syllable does not preclude its importance as a symbol. As you say though - it's highly tangential and a distration. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 19:15, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Consensus ?

Is anyone here still arguing that the swastika should be totally removed from all templates? That seemed to be a position that was put forward early on, but I don't think it was followed up on very much, if at all. As far as I can tell, no one for quite a few dozen edits has suggested such a thing, and there seems to be quite a clear consensus among all editors that it's unnecessary. What about the suggestion of replacing it only on the welcome template that's often posted to the talk page of editors after they make their first edit to a Hinudism-related article? It would prevent any future misunderstandings, remove the discomfort of some with having such a symbol on their talk pages, and is such a minor change that it would hardly reduce the visibility of the symbol at all. Thoughts? Dbratton 19:02, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Your proposal seems quite logical. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 19:03, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. Personally, I didn't know there was such a template, but I can see how a person who has only ever seen the swastika as being related to the Nazis, particularly if they are of Jewish extraction, might react negatively and stop working on the articles altogether. That falls more clearly in the area of good advertising, which is an entirely different subject. Badbilltucker 19:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

You all know I support that suggestion wholeheartedly [30] :-) Abecedare 19:11, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Excellent. I didn't mean to make it sound like my idea, I just couldn't find it to reference in the morass above. It's definitely the most rational (and only?) compromise that's been offered, and I support it wholeheartedly. :) Dbratton 20:18, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I've already supported it [31] but only on grounds mentioned by Dbratton, and absolutely not based on arguments that the any particular shape of Aum more suitable a motif for the template that the shape of swastika. deeptrivia (talk) 19:50, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

And on that point we still disagree - I've provided numerous objective cites to support the view that the Aum symbol is a more appropriate symbol to represent Hinduism than the swastika... regardless of the Nazi affiliation. As I said, there's always tomorrow. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 20:05, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with deeptrivia and Dbratton - using the swastika on the template can, and obviously did, cause a serious misunderstanding and hurt. But in other places, keep it as a symbol of Hinduism, which it is after all. ॐ Priyanath talk 20:19, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely - but don't use it an excessive percentage of the time, compared with the Aum - which has been demonstrated to be a more important symbol of Hinduism. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 20:24, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

It should be possible to freely use it, since it is the most important shape in Hinduism - as has been demonstrated. The only argument worth discussing here was whether a concession should be made for those few who might have an irrational phobia/hatred of the symbol, and my opinion is that it's okay if it can save us some time. deeptrivia (talk) 02:00, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Cite, please. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:33, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I have been bold, and made the change to {{Hindu Links}} (Welcome template). Hopefully the current consensus will hold. Thanks to Ms. Fresling fro proving the Red Aum image ! Abecedare 20:34, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I have been similarly bold in re-applying your edit after an immediate and bad-spirited revert. People, please. We're working in good faith here. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 20:41, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Reading through the above discussions, it is far from clear that there is any consensus. To declare a consensus where there is none, and then to change the templates while the discussion is clearly ongoing, is to my mind stretching the concept of 'good faith' to breaking point. DuncanHill 20:59, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I still object. censoring the the symbol is only going to bring about ignorance to the symbol and always equate it to the nazis. We don't remove the cross and the cresent. Those symbols respresent more people killed than the holocaust. I love jews. I don't understand why you're persecuting one of the only people who have never presecuted you and given you safe haven. Jews even used the same symbol in their temples.--D-Boy 21:03, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Neither censorship, nor persecution is taking place - those arguments are a blatant and vile strawman. It is becoming clear that these arguments are not intended to achieve consensus. You are defending the use of a symbol against logic itself, having provided no citations or facts, merely accusing others of censorship and persecution, and trying to frame the debate as Hindus vs. Jews. The height of bad faith indeed. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 21:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Just to be clear there is no plan to censor the swastika off wikipedia, or even to replace it on any template, except the {{Hindu Links}} (Welsome template), for reasons that I have further paraphrased here. I would fully accept if my reading of "current consensus" turns out to be inaccurate (note the "?" I included in the section title- I am not declaring consensus, just questioning if we are approaching one), but would appreciate the courtesy of being creadited with good faith. Thanks. Abecedare 21:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

• I concur wholeheartedly with the proposed change to the welcome template, if it will bring us all to an agreement on this issue.
  I, however, see no feasibility to any sort of percentage guaging of swastika use on other templates, since there is no objective standard to which this could be held. I further suggest that the application of symbols on any idividual templates simply be left to the layout editors and designers of those templates, who may use the Ohm, Swastika, both, or even neither as space permits. --tjstrf talk 21:23, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Even if it were possible to come up with an objective way to do it, I would still oppose such a motion. The change to the welcome template is accepted not on the grounds that Aum as a shape is more important than the Swastika, but as a concession to those who choose not to come out of their irrational phobia for the symbol. Therefore it does not apply to other templates. deeptrivia (talk) 02:03, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

You're welcome to object to the premise that the Aum represents Hinduism more directly than does the swastika - but so far you've decided against providing any citations or sources to support your conclusion. The only cite you provided (mine) demonstrated quite the opposite. The difference between opinion and fact is verifiability. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:32, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

For all the editors here

File:GandhiStatueInUnionSquareNYC.jpg

My honest thanks for a spirited debate - and my honest wishes for good faith and happiness for everyone who has participated - no matter their POV. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)