Talk:Avatar Course

Objections from Harry Palmer to this article

From WP:ANI:

Strange email

I'm sorry if I've put this in wrong place, but I really didn't know where else it was supposed to go. I just got an email about this page, which I unblanked. It says:

Chanel

My name is Harry Palmer and I just won a 450,000.00 suit against the person who wrote the libelous, incorrect bio on Wikipedia.

see here :http://www.avatarepc.com/sitrep1.html

Now this is the second time I've asked you to take it down. Please comply.

Harry Palmer

CEO

Star's Edge, Inc.

I don't know what he means by "this is the second time I've asked you to take it down." I've never had contact with him prior to today. I'm not sure what to do.--Shanel 01:50, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

He probably just used an "email this user" link. Ignore the trolls. .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 02:22, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

This is Harry Palmer (Avatar) a scientologist who runs his own "self help" organization licensed under the CoS. I've got friends who've had run ins with him based on public posts online. You will note his bio page here on Wiki has no posts to the discussion page, so if he's complained about his bio, its not anywhere anyone would have seen it or anywhere someone would have been able to do something about it. Suggest someone emails him and gets a list of "exactly whats wrong" with his bio, so we can NPOV the article.  ALKIVAR™ 08:24, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Ah, no, it's not licensed, quite the opposite - it's a breakaway from the CoS - see Free Zone and Category:Free Zone. The CoS hate their schisms with a passion - see Fair Game (Scientology).

It's someone who doesn't like his Wikipedia bio. Note that it's unreferenced - we really need verifiable sources on this sort of article. I'll have to see what I can find. I'll note it on WP:SCN as well. He may be a bit weird, but take it as you would anyone who doesn't like their unreferenced bio - David Gerard 11:59, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

His web page makes lots of (WP-irrelevant) minatory noises, backed up with links. But most or all of the links are to other pages on his own site. One (the only one?) that isn't is to this PDF file, for what it's worth. -- Hoary 09:30, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

References and rework

The article needs significant work and needs its references nailed down. I've made a start on this, rewriting it somewhat more clearly and listing and using more references. Needs more. Harry Palmer definitely warrants an article, but we need to get it right and be seen to be getting it right - David Gerard 16:51, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree fully with David Gerard that all facts in the article should be supported by good references. It would be useful if some kind of footnote system is used so it is clear which fact is supported by which reference. This would also highlight whether there are any unreferenced "facts" which may need deleting, jguk 19:02, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I'll try to hack on it over the weekend. Harry Palmer's IP did another blanking; I've left a note asking him to instead flag disputed facts or references on this talk page. We don't usually let people determine whether they're encyclopedic or not, but we do very much want to get things right - David Gerard 21:09, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm new to edits on Wikipedia. Avatar and Harry Palmer's materials with the exception of Living Deliberately are unpublished and confidential. It is difficult to have a critial discussion about the material itself without HP claiming copyright violations. If I were a licensed avatar master, Harry would pull my license for my contribution. I'll do what I can to reference my work more clearly. Integralindexer

Well, you can report about the material without copying the material, which is what would trigger copyright claims. However, the bigger problem is that if you were using material that you only had access to because you were an Avatar Master, you might run into problems with Wikipedia:Verifiability, where it would be difficult or impossible for others to double-check your work (if they can't get access to the same materials except by being a licensed Avatar Master...) However, a newspaper or magazine article reporting what its sources say about the Avatar Courses would in most cases be verifiable and an acceptably reliable source (of course, it would be a reliable source for the claim that "former members say the content is blah blah blah", not the claim "the content is blah blah blah" -- I trust you see the distinction.) -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:27, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

Not a surprise to anyone, but the description of the dispute with Eldon Braun needs to be NPOVed. Right now it's very clearly slanted towards "Palmer was in the right, Braun was in the wrong". Even if this is the conclusion most readers would come to if presented with the full facts, we are here to present those facts, not to push the conclusion. -- Antaeus Feldspar 20:07, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Sloppiness

"""If the student completes Section II the student is "encouraged" to move on to Section III,""". Why the scare quotes? Can we avoid the passive voice also?