Talk:Apple Inc.

Fourth paragraph under Criticism

The paragraph starting "Apple has used industry-standard hardware technologies for many years" doesn't seem to contain any criticism, and almost just seems like a promotional paragraph. With all of the other problems and iffy NPOV with that section, should the whole section be flagged as non-NPOV? There seems to be a whole lot more effort put into defense of criticisms, in general. Smeggysmeg 01:17, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

One radical idea would be to remove everything without a reference in the whole article and make a HTML comment to look at the talk page for pointers, which is where the old content would be. I think this would encourage people to try again in this area - the writing wouldn't be as good initially but fixing writing for the crowd of this article may be easier then waiting for someone to reference stuff here.

While we are on the subject, the three references I put at the end were suggestions and may not actually back up much - so it still could be basically 90% unreferenced...

Hopefully I'll have time to nail a few of these points down anyway :\. RN 22:34, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Some other, offbeat criticism

I came across some other criticism here[1]. I don't know how common this POV is among Christian parents.

Citations

What is up with all these "citation required" and the numereous citations??? So as long as someone cites any publication, then it is all good nevermind that the people who write those articles might not be any more knowledgable than a Wiki writer? The number of citations included just for the list of Apple Fellows is ridiculous. So is requiring a citation describing the length of the crowds at the NYC and Tokyo openings; if I was there and I witnessed it, it doesn't count until someone quotes me in the NY Times? Is there some pedant demanding a citation for everything? There is almost as many citations here as there is in the Homosexuality article; and Apple Computer is a far less controversial topic ... but I guess I would need a citation for that statement too right? 66.171.76.241 04:10, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Please review Wikipedia core policies to understand why citations are necessary. See Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Reliable sources, Wikipedia:No original research, and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. Verifiability in particular answers nearly all of your questions. If you have an issue with that policy, raise it there.--Coolcaesar 04:28, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I have reviewed it and it still does not answer my concerns. Check out how citations are almost nonexistant in articles for mathematics, physics, philosophy (even Communism), and biography of famous musicians. My point is that there are so many citations and citations requirements of petty facts in the sections "User Culture" and "Criticism" that it degrades the overall quality of the article. Anyway that's all I have to say on this.66.171.76.241 03:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The general rule is that the less controversial the subject, the less need for citations. For example, pure mathematics is relatively uncontroversial (except for certain obscure cutting-edge areas). But other controversial areas, like law and business, need more citations. For example, when I first drafted the article on Roger J. Traynor, I was immediately challenged on the issue of whether he was notable. I dug up some citations and no one has brought up the issue again. That is how Wikipedia works.--Coolcaesar 17:15, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

"The general rule is that the less controversial the subject, the less need for citations" - not if you are planning on FACing it... you generelly need every claim cited. These kind of articles are more difficult then books and such because the references are generally more numerous. Microsoft is an article I contributed a lot to and I think is a good example of this kind of article and the referencing requirements. RN 22:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

New Section for Criticisms of Apple

Why isn't there a section for this? Many people have issues with Apple, and seeing as there is one on the microsoft entry, makes me wonder why this hasn't been brought up before. Hogiaus 17:41, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I tend to agree, Apple can be criticized for a lot of things, from enviromental issues (the iSight was banned from the European Union) to lack of expanded support options (next-day support etc) to their habit of never releasing information about future products in advance. 81.233.73.177/A helping hand

Deleted "Analysis"

This section was nothing but unreferenced criticisms and has been for a long time. -  Mike | trick or treat  13:11, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Well done! Mushroom (Talk) 13:16, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I think this article is back up to GA standards

I've done a little cleanup on it, and removed that awful "Analysis" POV section. Now there are only a few things in need of a citation in the article. The article is well-written and a good timeline. Does anybody object to me nominating this for GA? -  Mike | trick or treat  16:19, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Now nominted. Let's see how this goes! -  Mike | trick or treat  01:12, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

"Green my Apple" campaign

Does this really belong here? I understand that this is a notable enviornmental group, but it seems so out of place with the rest of the article simply being about the history of the company. Thoughs? -  Mike | trick or treat  23:46, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Update: Looks like it's been moved to criticism section of Apple Macintosh by User:HereToHelp. Seems like a good solution to me. -  Mike | trick or treat  00:00, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Seems like a bad solution to me, as the campaign is against the use of toxic chemicals in all Apple products, including iPods, not just Macs. Note that the Microsoft page has a "Criticism" section, the Nestlé page has a "Criticisms of Nestlé's business practices" section, the Google page has a "Criticism and controversy" subsection of the "History" section (and the History of Google section has a more detailed "Criticism and controversy" section), and the AT&T page has a "Privacy controversy" section, so it's not as if descriptions of criticisms of corporations are otherwise absent from the Wikipedia pages for corporations.

Furthermore, the Apple Computer page isn't simply about the history of Apple; it also has "Current products", "Corporate affairs", "Corporate culture", "User culture", and "Notable litigation" sections. Guy Harris 00:29, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I generally think that "criticisms" sections should be avoided, because many users take them as a dumping ground for every little "Apple sucks" thing they see. While some very notable criticisms may be worth noting (such as criticisms of Internet Explorer), I'm not sure that there's any reason to include that here. -  Mike | trick or treat  00:39, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Presumably you meant "because many users take them as a dumping ground for every little "XXX corporation sucks" thing they see; Apple doesn't deserve than other companies when it comes to having, or not having, a criticism section. Guy Harris 01:54, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Right. I think "criticisms" sections should generally be avoided, and that "criticisms" articles go way too far and should not even exist ;-) -  Mike | trick or treat  01:57, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

The fatal flaw of "integrated criticism" is that, given enough criticism (and counter-points) on a subject, the whole article would end up looking like the goal is to air dirty laundry, not to be precise and informative on the subject itself. Having a separate section helps maintain reader focus through the article. "Criticism" is just an aspect of a subject, anyhow, just like history, cultural impact, etc. are, and those other aspects tend to get sections, too, right? By extension, criticism articles in computing exist as a natural outcome of following Wikipedia:Summary style guidelines for when articles get lengthy... not because they're criticisms.

As for the Greenpeace bit: criticisim of Apple's environmental record is probably noteworthy enough for Wikipedia. It really has been one of their weak points... iSight was withdrawn from the European market earlier this year for related concerns, e.g. -/- Warren 12:45, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, but is that more usefully listed here or at Apple Macintosh as HereToHelp has done? -  Mike | trick or treat  01:12, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Given that Greenpeace is criticizing Apple as a whole - among other things, they're complaining about iPods as well as Macs - I'd say it's more usefully listed here, not at Apple Macintosh. Guy Harris 09:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

This article doesn't have a criticism section like Macintosh does. If you can find a good place for it, move it back here. But bear in mind a one paragraph criticism section will not look very good.--HereToHelp 11:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Alexa ranking

Is it reall necessary to include it? Lots of major computer corporations have hight Alexa rankings...to me it goes without saying. If it should be listed, it certainly doesn't deserve its own section, so I have moved it to the lead, although I'm not sure that's the best place for it either. -  Mike | trick or treat  16:51, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

GA Status

Per nomination, GA status has been granted and tags applied appropriately. Sourcing looks good, however my major piece of advice would be to shrink this article -- lots of good info, but sometimes we gotta pick and choose what to include. That being said, I think this is a pretty good article. Side note -- I do not own any apple products, and have not contributed to (or, before last night, even read) this article. Good job, guys! /Blaxthos 18:08, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

FA run

I don't think it's ready yet, but like Microsoft I think that Apple has an FA in it. I know that my preivous nom was very premature, but I think that the article is vastly improved since then. Anybody interested in collaborating to get this up to FA status? Any suggestions on how to do so? - Mike | Trick or Treat 23:52, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd love to see this get to FA status! Here's my list of things I think we ought to look at:

• A longer lead section. This is a well-known, historically important technology company with a 30-year history, and for an article of this size, a solid four paragraphs covering all the major aspects should suffice.
• The history section should be cut down in size. We have a separate article for the full history, so let's be razor-sharp and focus on all the important stuff, without dragging the reader down with little details like when revisions of computers were released or other contextually irrelevant things when discussing the history of the company as a whole. Wikipedia:Summary style gives us good guidance here.
• The Corporate Affairs section shouldn't start off with criticism of the company. Something seems really wrong with that.
• There should be no red-links, no unsourced statements, and every reference we do have should be checked to ensure they're still valid.
• A picture of the Apple ][, a picture of the company's first employees, or at least -something- from the first 10 years of the company other than the 1984 commercial, would be fantastic.
• A good FA should stand the test of time. That is to say, I should be able to read the article as it is now, in 2025, and not encounter meaningless temporal terms like "recently", or speculation about the future.

I'll do some of this work myself in the coming days. We could also submit to Wikipedia:Peer review and get some perspective from other editors. -/- Warren 02:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Sounds great! I'll just keep doing my normal cleanup type stuff and hopefully this will be an FA soon! - Mike | Trick or Treat 22:38, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

No way would I vote for this article for FA. Not until it gets some honesty. It doesn't even mention the 1997 Microsoft bailout[2]. Not even once! And no criticism section? This article is heavily colored by biased advocacy. --Skidoo 17:12, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I've been working on iPod, too, with the same goal... This one is most certainly not FA quality yet, but it has the potential.--HereToHelp 21:24, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Financial Information

Should there be financial infirmation $ sales, profits, number of employeesXSebX 03:25, 28 October 2006 (UTC) etc. Apple is a publicly traded company. XSebX 03:25, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, which is why that information is in the infobox. Guy Harris 23:19, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

POV

There is nothing in here that says that criticizes Apple other than the lawsuits. How about the fact that Macs can't play games and can't run on AMD? --Rigist 22:31, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I think you misspelled "few games are available for Mac OS X than for Windows, and Macs use processors from Intel rather than AMD".

The first could be considered a deficiency of Mac OS X (not of Macs, any more, as you can install Windows on them if you want, even if they don't come with Windows). I'm not sure whether it would count as a "criticism" in the sense that a complaint that OS X is slow, or has security problems, or that applications crash, would be a criticism - the latter are things that one could argue should Just Be Fixed, but the only ways to "fix" the smaller number of games would be for Apple to:

1. switch from OS X to Windows, which would probably cause many other people not to want to use Macs, as they buy it because they like the way OS X works better than the way Windows works (just as there are people who like the way Windows works, and there are people who like the way KDE works, and so on - no "of course {Windows, OS X, etc.} is better" opining, please);
2. promote the use of games under virtualization software such as Parallels Workstation or VMWare;
3. promote the development and use of Darwine.

The second runs the risk of turning into Yet Another AMD Fanboy Versus Intel Fanboy war; the mere fact that Apple used processors from Vendor A rather than Vendor B isn't, by itself, an item to criticize, you'd need to justify why choosing chips from Vendor B is a better idea than choosing them from Vendor A, and that could turn into a long debate about the relative merits of various aspects of AMD and AMD's processors vs. Intel and Intel's processors.

There's no inherent reason why the Apple Computer or Macintosh pages should be free of a criticism section; if they shouldn't have one, no page about a company or product should have one. However, there are cases where criticisms of a company are "notable", e.g. criticisms of ExxonMobil for the Exxon Valdez oil spill or Nestlé for their marketing of infant formula, so clearly "no criticism sections" is wrong. However, a criticism section shouldn't just be a forum for gripes (just as a Web page about a company or organization shouldn't be full of breathless enthusiasm about a company); WP:NOT a Web bulletin board. Guy Harris 23:16, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

On top of what has been said, regarding the Intel/AMD thing: Macs are a closed platform and always have been. It's entirely fair of Apple to choose Intel's chips, just as it was not worthy of criticism in an encyclopedia that they previously used PowerPC as a platform. In relation to games - that's more a criticism of game developers than Apple. Mac OS X has built-in OpenGL, so anybody can make games for it if they choose to invest the time and money, and as the Mac market grows, you'll see more of that happening - but it's not Apple's job to port other peoples software. Davidjk ^(msg+edits) 17:02, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Currently-Used Logo

I just viewed this page, and saw Apple's 2 previous logos instead of the computer-rendered Apple logo. Shouldn't the logo have stayed as the computer-rendered version? Moronicles 21:37, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes - I've put that back. The infobox should have the current logo; the older logos are in a history section, where they belong. Guy Harris 21:43, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Reference cleanup

Although not a requirement, I think that standardizing the cite tags would be a big improvement for this article. A lot of the references are of the external-link variety, whereas some ref name="foo" and cite templates would really improve the readability of the article. /Blaxthos 09:52, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Controversial claim of no viruses

I think that the fact that apple claims to have no viruses on their computers at the current time yet there are known viruses should be added. I recently discovered after reading on apple.com that there are zero known viruses on apple computers running OS X that this is false. There are infact upwards of 44,000 according to one study. I can even provide where I read this. As well, a computer repair man in my local area has also confirmed that this IS true, and he is certified by apple. Crashedata 09:28, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Can you provide a citation for your claim that there are functioning viruses for a patched copy of Mac OS X? While there have been a number of "scares", and there are indeed many thousands of viruses for "Classic" Mac OS, the current version of Mac OS X has no functioning viruses currently known. Thanks, Davidjk ^(msg+edits) 18:34, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

There currently is no "virus" in the wild. Some have claimed that there are, but so far, those are simply malicious applications that can't really replicate on their own; each installation needs the user to provide an administrator password. If there is anything else out there showing otherwise, I'd really like to see it! -- Tim D 18:49, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

If you can provide where you read that there are "upwards of 44,000 viruses" on OS X, please do so. There might well be viruses, but that seems like a bit of a high number. (Note: viruses that require Virtual PC, Parallels Workstation, or VMWare don't count. :-)) Guy Harris 20:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd have guessed that the average square cm of any computer contains a lot more than 44,000 virions. But as for software viruses, those happen to the PCs at work, not my Macs or Solaris systems at home.

Atlant 20:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

He's talking about viruses on OS X, not on the computer - but there's probably a lot more than 44,000 virions per square cm of an OS X DVD. Guy Harris 21:07, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Why would anyone develop a virus for a Mac? You'd hit almost no computers.

There's a lot to be gained in reputation for being the "first" to hit OS X with a legitimate virus. And although it seems like a relatively small target compared to Windows, it's a target that is almost completely unprotected by virus software. A well-written virus on a Mac has a lot of potential for heavy effects. -- Tim D 02:03, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Shhhhhhhh!!!! Don't give them any ideas!--HereToHelp 02:04, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Aw crap. REVERT! REVERT! -- Tim D 02:11, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

"The Microsoft Deal" - 1997

No mention of this? 142.59.135.116 08:18, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I am laughing out loud at the GLARING absence of any mention of the 1997 Microsoft bailout. Clearly some Apple fanatics have had their way with this article. Hopefully someone will fix this. It's ridiculous. That was one of the pivotal moments in Apple's history, AND IT'S NOT EVEN MENTIONED!! Good grief. If I get some time, I'll put it in.

I don't care how big a Mac fan you are, it's dishonest not to have ANY MENTION WHATSOEVER of this huge event. Come on, people. --Skidoo 16:40, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

One controversy over this issue is whether Microsoft's payoff was indeed then "bailing Apple out", or whether it was indeed paid to Apple in order to settle previous and upcoming lawsuits. Of course, with the secrecy of the company, we may never know what the deal really was about, but I personally find it strange for one company to help out virtually its only competition. --Rfaulder 00:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Added some info on this yesterday. Hope that helps. --Brucethemoose 18:13, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

new Article to merge

Someone please merge, delete or something to Apple PenLite. --meatclerk 11:48, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I do not see any reason to merge the Penlite article. Sorry I just started it lastnight but just because it has very little info due to it being a new article doesn't mean it should be deleted or merged right away. There is plenty of info not on there yet to warrant it being an article of its own. --Borisborf 23:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Greenpeace

Is the part on Greenpeace (the whole section "Environmental Issues" is on Greenpeace's criticism) relevant? Checking Google, Greenpeace has similarly criticized every major computer manufacturer I could think of. I think that it should be removed from this article, the Hewlett-Packard article and every other article that has a Greenpeace section. If a company has a serious problem, it will be noted by other organizations than Greenpeace. Also, if the majority of computer manufacturers are behaving similarly, criticism about the industry's should be placed in a generic article, like computer or an article on computer manufacturing or environmental issues, if there is one. A mention in the Greenpeace article may also be appropriate. Finally, in my experience, Greenpeace is not a reliable source. First, they are biased. Getting environmental information from them is like getting gun violence statistics from the National Rifle Association or global warming information from the coal industry. Bias affecting results or information need not be intentional. Second, like most political organizations, they are inept when it comes to logic, committing logical fallacies regularly (some of their (political organizations) favorites are guilt by association, straw man and false dilemma). Third, they do not understand technical issues, like the safety of a substance or technology. -- Kjkolb 12:09, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

iPhone

there's been a lot of buzz about the upcoming iPhone, I've seen several articles on news sites... should it be mentioned? (I would do it, but I have no idea how) -- will200557 Dec. 4, 2006

Let's wait for something official, or directly from the U.S. Patent Office.--HereToHelp 00:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Apple 1 picture caption

"The Apple I, Apple's first attempt at computer hardware, sold for $666.66. It lacked basic features such as a keyboard and a monitor." However, the picture clearly has a built-in keyboard. Caption should be changed. 24.57.195.9 23:22, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

The caption isn't quite accurate for the image, but the Apple I was sold initially as just a motherboard, so technically the facts are right. However, the article text adjoining the picture notes that the Apple I motherboard was sold for $500 ... so where does the $666.66 come from? salamurai 00:54, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Not sure. I've heard the urban legend about the $666.66 but can't recall ever seeing actual proof of it. Caption should probably just be changed to "Photo of the Apple I in wood housing with keyboard" or something similar. 24.57.195.9 03:07, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

It's not an urban ledgend. So Far, a book Apple published on its 10th aniversary (it's cited in the Apple I article) says, on page 38, the original price for the board was $666.66. It also reproduces on the same page Apple's first ad, published in the September 1976 edition of Interface Age on page 13, which also give the price as $666.66. The caption should add that the hobbiest who purchased this unit added his own keyboard and wooden case.--agr 05:04, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Apple Inc (no comma)

Should be Apple Inc (no comma) due to the screenshot of the slide from today's announcement here, no? --ZimZalaBim (talk) 19:10, 9 January 2007 (UTC)