Talk:Srebrenica massacre

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KarlXII/Osli73 - identity crisis resolved

I removed all text in this section. This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Srebrenica massacre article (see Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines). It is not the place to discuss the behaviour of other editors. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 01:49, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Jitse, deleting Opbeith's comments borders on censorship. Let him speak. There is tons of genocide denial garbage on these discussion pages that were never bothered to be deleted. I know you are trying to be objective and fair, but please understand that double standard has been exercised for too long on this politicized topic. Suddenly we see urge to call genocide deniers "critics" and people with "alternative views", etc. Why don't you go ahead and call Holocause deniers "critics" and people with "alternative views"? Go ahead, test it at Holocaust and Holocaust Denial pages. It's simply not going to happen. If you question facts (whether it's the fact that holocaust happened, or the fact that Srebrenica genocide happened) you are not only questioning - you are denying them. Why? Because during the process of questioning, these deniers also seek theories that will support their conclussions! They are not interested in objective analysys of events, as it has been evident for a long time on these discussion pages. Opbeith tried too many times to reasonably explain people many facts behind the genocide in Srebrenica; he has been careful enough to place things into proper perspective, avoiding taking any sides. He is extremely objective and reasonable individual and he is one of those people who thinks thoroughly before he answers anything. He is very sensitive about facts of the case and his valuable opinion should be preserved, and not deleted. If people are going to question that one plus one equals two, then they are denying fact of the equation. We do our best to reason with unreasonable, but so many times world depends on unreasonable individuals who simply refuse to think and continue their ways of genocide/holocaust, small and large scale massacre denials. To get back to the topic, I am contributing this document from the United States Congressional hearing on Srebrenica genocide. Please read it carefully http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/intlrel/hfa49268.000/hfa49268_0f.htm . Bosniak 08:30, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm trying to act kindof mediator here; maybe it's mea culpa for the first deletion of personal exchanges, but things are heating up again. So, let me express several opinions and/or facts, in no particular order:

• WP:TALK states, among other things, "Keep on topic", "No personal attacks", and "Never post personal details", with the proviso "Irrelevant discussions are subject to removal". I am not accusing you, Opbeith, of incivility, but you did post analysis of your opponents' views and personal background on several occasions. While those weren't grossly off topic, I deem their removal by Jitse as [borderline] justified.
• The section "too few opinions" is archived indeed:: Talk:Srebrenica massacre/Archive 11#Too few opinions by Laughing Man. I don't quite approve this act, as it had some things relevant to the article, but it also had some nasty hints at "yet another onslaught by the revisionist concert party", and the tag is not in the article anymore so the issue is moot anyway.
• To me, it was more or less clear from the start that KarlXII is Osli73 (which doesn't necessarily mean it was clear for all). He ultimately confirmed that himself, and admitted it was an error; KarlXII account is now blocked. End of story, please. He did employ some questionnable tactics (talk-much-then-edit-quickly) in the past, for which he has warned by the ArbCom. However, I didn't see that repeated recently.
• I also knew that Hadžija was Estavisti. Since he's gone, it hardly matters now.
• For the record, User:Evv has requested username change to User:Ev. He's not very active in this article (but he is in related ones); just that anyone doesn't get surprised again.
• I kind of understand your frustration, but, trust me, the recent exchange of low kicks here is far milder than many edit wars I've seen. I don't want to be sound cynical, but get a skin. Apart from some questionnable (but not entirely inappropriate) removal of talk page comments, I don't think anyone has insulted you or Fairview personally.
• In sum, while the events at this talk page weren't exactly the model behavior, they were well within acceptable limits (with the exception of User:Bosniak, who is likely on his way to be banned from this and related articles). I sympathize with his strong feelings about the matter, but see WP:TIGER.
• We're dealing with a sensitive topic here, obviously. But the article seems to have reached a relative stability and the remaining question is how much of "alternative views" have enough due weight to be included in the article. But the spirale of assuming bad faith won't lead us to the solution.

Duja► 08:44, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Duja, I know I'm verbose, so feel free to delete this after reading it (I'll delete it anyway after it's had a brief run). I'm not concerned for my own right of expression. What I am concerned about is the outcome of discussions on this page.

Let us be clear. The Secretary General of the United Nations pointed out that what followed the fall of Srebrenica was a tragedy that was shocking in its magnitude - not since the horrors of the Second World War had Europe witnessed massacres on this scale. What we are constantly arguing about at the Srebrrenica Massacre discussion page is exchanges in which that reality, its scale or its motivation are denied.

You talk about Bosniak being banned for breaking the rules of Wikipedia when he fights to defend the facts that substantiate that reality while you, Jitse and Laughing Man condone the use of multiple identities to challenge facts established in many authoritative sources.

Your original deletion removed an exchange which centred on Bosniak challenging the actions and views of individuals whose behaviour appeared to bear out his accusation of their partisan motives. [1].

"I am keeping my head cool, but it's ridicolous to explain things to "those" people over and over again. They simply don't listen, just like their leaders refused to listen. Their target has stayed the same - destruction of this article, just as was their target to destroy muslims of Bosnia during early 1990s." That's a sweeping condemnation but looking at the reality of what goes on here I don't see it as being too far off beam. The fact and details of genocide are repeatedly denied here. When those who engage in that process of denial are challenged they change their names and come back again.

Duja, I accept that you and Jitse have made your interventions in the interest of promoting harmonious discussion. Even though I felt there was a degree of misrepresentation in your initial deletion I accepted that your action wasn't unreasonable in terms of its effect. I'm willing to compromise in the interests of ensuring a reasonable forum for discussion on this page.

What I'm not willing to do is to negotiate the facts of atrocity. When I have raised the issue of other people's views (not their personal background as you claim - simply their views, expressed openly here or elsewhere) it has been with the intention of establishing the reality behind their interventions here after that reality has been denied or dissimulated.

Just go back and look at the sequence of events that led to my exchange with the name-switching individual with the blog (whose personal identity I did not compromise - I couldn't, I don't even know it - even though he made accusations against me and identified me). Go back and look at the identity changes evident here and judge for yourself what sort of pattern emerges.

It's disingenuous to pretend that there's no history here and unwarranted to describe the situation here as stable. Periods of intermittent quiet rarely last. The substance of the article is not yet agreed. There are points where a more specific wording would be justified. I, and I'm sure others too, hold back from making those changes because I have a limited amount of energy available to defend those changes from the inevitable reversions.

Your reference to the TIGER page is quite inappropriate. The analogy comparing Wikipedia to a natural history museum safeguarding a collection of type specimens was obviously made by someone with little understanding of the sociology of knowledge or the role of information in the world.

The reference there to Simon Wessely is instructive. Here is a very powerful man who has sought to establish his authority over a field of knowledge. His victims' efforts to challenge his authority are not always as measured as dispassionate third parties might like. So their personal experience is denied because it is inappropriately expressed. The powerless driven to despair are rendered even more powerless when the rational but unengaged administer the rules of civilised conduct in a way that protects those who know how to exploit them.

You're quite right no-one has insulted myself or Fairview360 personally. I don't think either of us cares a fig about personal comments made about us, I think we both have a sense of proportion regarding the relevant significance of our personal sensitivities and the enormity of the subject at issue.

I think you've simply missed the point. Both Fairview360 and I are angry at the way facts are disregarded and the truth is distorted. We both started out with a "skin" of reasonableness and a willingness to engage in discussion.

I watched Fairview360 have his skin abraded away by the wilful unreasonableness and deceit of those with whom he engaged. Now I've experienced the same sapping of my reserves of tolerance. But I'm certainly not going to "get a skin" in order to live with duplicity and accept moral equivalency.

--Opbeith 19:55, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Things have stabilized here. But it's probably just a matter of time before someone comes and starts posting questions that were already discussed probably over 1,000 times so far (e.g. Lewis Mackenzie, Diana Johnstone, Oric attack on Serb village of Kravica in which 11 civilians died, challenging numbers of dead, challenging UN conclussions, challenging numbers of missing, etc). Wikipedia admins did nothing to stop obvious unreasonablesness with members who kept pushing their revisionist points even when they were presented with ICTY judgments. I mean, it's laughable to call obvious genocide deniers with such polite names as "critics" or "alternative views". Come on. What Opbeith stood for is calling people their proper names. I have no problem with people questioning what happened in Srebrenica. Me and Opbeight have questioned Srebrenica events for many months, but instead of looking for answers that would support our conclussion, we looked for answers that were supported by ICTY judgements, UN Conclusions, Congressional Hearings, Human Rights Reports etc. There are generally two types of genocide deniers, (1) those who reference other revisionists to justify their conclussions, and (2) those who reference factual findings (e.g. ICTY judgements) by taking carefully selected judicial findings and placing them out of context to gain credibility. For example, there was a case when someone holding revisionist views abused ICTY findings by cutting and pasting one sentence out of context which stated that Naser Oric attacked Serb villages. The point of this abuse was to prove that Serbs were victims of Oric attacks and that Serbs somehow needed to revenge for those attacks. Of course, nobody mentioned that long before Oric attacked and killed 35 soldiers and 11 Serb civilians in Kravice village, Serb forces massacred hundreds of Bosniaks in other villages around Srebrenica, Foca, Bratunac, Zvornik, etc. And of course, nobody failed to study judgements long enough to bring a point that these Serb villages were in fact military bases. But Opbeith was there to point out:

In the proceedings against Naser Oric when the ICTY examined the attacks by Bosnian Muslim units under his control on various villages in the vicinity of Srebrenica it found that although there was no justification for the wanton destruction that took place in these villages, there was evidence in many cases of militarisation, military presence and provocative military action. In various villages referred to in the proceedings village guards received at least some military support. At the time of the attack on Ratkovic'i, Gornji Ratkovic'i and Duc(ic'i, a number of Bosnian Serb village guards were present. Although there was conflicting evidence the more convincing evidence suggested that at least some of those village guards underwent special military training and were relatively well-armed. The Trial Chamber did not exclude a military justification for the attacks on the villages.

In Bjelovac and Sikiric village guards received weapons and ammunition from the Bratunac Brigade of the VRS, and there was a Serb and Bosnian Serb military presence in the area. Weapons and ammunition were stored in Bjelovac, and positioned in between houses in Ložnicka Rijeka and Kunjerac. The school building of Bjelovac was used as a kitchen to feed passing Bosnian Serb fighters.

With particular reference to the attack on the villages of Kravica, Šiljkovici and Ježestica on 7 and 8 January 1993 - the Orthodox Christmas day attack - the Tribunal noted that throughout the summer of 1992, Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Muslims engaged in mutual fighting in the area of Kravica and Ježestica. The fighting intensified in December 1992 and the beginning of January 1993, when Bosnian Muslims were attacked by Bosnian Serbs primarily from the direction of Kravica and Ježestica. In the early morning of the 7 January Bosnian Muslims attacked Kravica, Ježestica and Šiljkovici. At the time of the attack a number of village guards were present. Convincing evidence suggested that the village guards were backed by the VRS and following the fighting in the summer of 1992 had received military support, including weapons and training. A considerable amount of weapons and ammunition was kept in Kravica and Šiljkovici. Moreover there was evidence that besides the village guards, there was Serb and Bosnian Serb military presence in the area.

http://www.un.org/icty/oric/trialc/judgement/ori-jud060630e.pdf "Prosecutor vs Naser Oric, Judgement". United Nations. 30 June 2006. paras. 590-676]

In these various instances the Tribunal while not excusing the actions of the units under Oric's control also described the wider context of conflict and military aggression in which those actions took place. The argument that seeks to explain away the Srebrenica Massacre as a spontaneous act of revenge often makes reference to a series of attacks on Serb villages and implicitly on Serb civilians by units under Oric's command in a way that ignores or underplays the militarisation of those villages and the provocative and retaliatory actions launched from them in the months and years before the final onslaught on Srebrenica

Opbeith was here to point many, many important facts, and he tried his best to reason with unreasonable. I must admit I lost control many times, and I admire Opbeith for being patient and having a thick skin. Both of us voice strong opposition to genocide denial. He is very sensitive to denials of human suffering. He's not just sensitive about Srebrenica, he is sensitive about Holocaust and genocide in Rwanda. He is kind, gentle, peace-loving human being, and as such, his views were not challenged properly. Instead of a fair debate, revisionists spat on his views, attacked his character, refused to even take into consideration his opinion, and to my shock - some admins even censored his opinion, which is reminiscent of islamic dictatorships and censorship police we can see in the Middle East.

And on a positive side, things have stabilized here, and let's hope they stay that way.

Bosniak 22:10, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

See my coment below, at the #disputed tag section —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Duja (talk • contribs) 09:49, 9 February 2007 (UTC).

disputed tag

Hi everyone, well looks like I won't be the most popular person for adding a disputed tag to this article! I promise to read all through the talk-page archives when I get the chance (have glanced at a few) but I have to at least say that I don't see how the ICTY can be considered an independent and supposedly reliable source, as many arguing against the 'revisionists' appear to claim. The ICTY is an institution set up by NATO, after all! And I would argue a tag at least directs readers to the talk-page archives. Also, in response to the argument that people disputing the facts are 'revisionists' because Holocaust deniers are, this doesn't follow. Surely by that logic, anyone who disputes anything (well, any alleged massacre, anyway) can be called a 'revisionist' (a very loaded term) by a person who agrees with it. Anyway, looking forward to reviewing the archives. Cheers everybody.

Oops, forgot to sign and date that. PS, for the record, I am open-minded about this topic -- I'm not convinced the sceptics/ 'revisionists' are correct by any means. But I do know some shocking lies were told about the Serbs by the Western media -- eg Slobodan Milosevic's 'Kosovo Field speech' was portrayed as a nationalist diatribe, when it was nothing of the sort! (This was reported accurately by Western media agencies at the time, but later distorted beyond recognition. See http://emperors-clothes.com/milo/milosaid.html for a discussion of this.)

Jonathanmills 04:08, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi. The ICTY was not set up by NATO; it was by the UN Security Council Resolution 827. And if I may be so blunt, what would you call people who dispute the facts? The massacre was not an "alleged" massacre (and I'm not saying at all that you are claiming that it didn't happen); it is a proven fact; it not simply an opinion. Calling those who deny the that a massacre took place; or who cite considerably lower numbers, like only 2,000 dead "alternative views" seems to seriously call into question the basic absolute facts of the article; that a massacre occured in Srebrenica. Gardenfli 08:47, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

"The ICTY was not set up by NATO; it was by the UN Security Council Resolution 827." Apologies; I should have said 'set up by the NATO powers'. But it was clearly put through the UN on the urging of the big powers in NATO. Moreover, they largely provided the funding, etc, and indeed have given indications as to how fully they are the ones behind the agenda: eg, see here: http://emperors-clothes.com/docs/tribdocs.htm

But the main point is that it is absolutely ridiculous to portray the ICTY, or the Western media organisations (given the appalling scale of distortion they were responsible for vis-a-vis Milosevic -- again, take a look at http://emperors-clothes.com/milo/milosaid.html) as somehow beyond question. And, having looked over some of the discussion archives here, (as well as the fact that most of the references in the actual article appear to be drawn from one of the above), it appears this is the assertion of those attacking the sceptics (to the point of calling them 'revisionists' and 'deniers', both thoroughly loaded terms.) So it is not a 'proven fact'; it is a contested fact. The 'controversial articles' listed provide more than enough evidence to at least cast some doubt on the official story (although, I say again, I have no particular view, as I wasn't there -- but I would venture to guess no one on this talk page was.) All that said, there is no good argument for removing my tag -- the fact is that pages and pages of talk-page archives clearly demonstrate that the factual accuracy and neutrality of this article are indeed disputed. I am thus replacing it. Jonathanmills 08:22, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

You are a sockpuppet. And you didn't read the article. So you cannot judge about the article if you didn't read it, and you are a sockpuppet. Emir Arven 10:25, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not a sockpuppet. And how do you know I didn't read the article? And just out of interest, have you read the articles from the Srebrenica Report Group or any of the other 'controversial' links? Or the article documenting the appalling distortion of Milosevic's record on the part of the Western media?

Jonathanmills 23:32, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Jonathanmills, if you want to challenge the legitimacy of the ICTY, as anyone is free to do, rather than refer us to the opinions broadcast by the brightest and the best at emperors-clothes it might be more useful if you cited the opinions of some more authoritative legal minds. The ICTY was set up by the UN which as is often the case failed to come up with adeqaute resourcing.

As I understand it the ICTY is funded partly out of the UN's general budget and partly from voluntary funding by individual member nations. As far as I'm aware you're correct in saying that NATO member countries who are also members of the UN have helped find the necessary resources to allow it to proceed.

If the ICTY continues to receive funding out of the UN's general budget this would suggest to me that the UN has not withdrawn its confidence from the ICTY and is still happy to have the ICTY continue its work. If you want to convince me that the ICTY is in fact an unreliable authority you need to show me evidence of a substantial loss of confidence on the part of the UN's member states.

If you want to convince me that the ICTY is simply a NATO creature I think you also need to show me that voluntary funding has not been provided by other non-NATO countries.

And if you want to convince me that the ICTY findings lack legal substance you'll need to offer me some evidence that the body of informed opinion in the field of international law rejects them.

The ball's in your court. --Opbeith 22:38, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Cheers for keeping the tone friendly, Opbeith. And your questions are of course to the point. I will get a reply to you when I get the chance. (This is not a cop-out - I'm actually at work right now).

Jonathanmills 23:32, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Jonathan, as I see it,

1. it's not for the editors of this article to analyse the nature of the ICTY or any alleged complicity or bias of 'western' media. We should simply summarize and report the prevailing understanding of the event. As I see it, the view presented by the ICTY is accepted by the majority of other sources.
2. as there is a minority (or rather, minorities, since they don't appear to be a coherent block) who dispute various parts of the massacre as presnted by the ICTY/majority, their views should also be presented, thouth, of course, with much less weight/space allocated to them.
3. in both cases, the icty/majority view and the minority view, there is no need to label either of them as "revisionists", "alleged rapist", "fundamentalist", "Nato created" or other. Just say that the ICTY view is the view accepted by the vast majority and that the minority view is, well... a minority view.
4. Since the article currently strays somewhat from the ICTY/majority view, eg with the case of MacKenzie, the Scorpions and the >8300 killed, I agree with you that it is contested. In my opinion, the selection of information presented, the wording and conclusions drawn also means that in some cases the article is POV.

Regards Osli73 09:02, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Since when is murdering 2000 people at once not a massacre? —Psychonaut 09:54, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

The past discussion seems to revolve around namecalling of "alternative"/"revisionist"/"denial" views. The general problem is that those views come by multiple people with a variety of motives, some of good faith, some of political agenda, and some of hatred. But I don't think that the relevant ones deny the scale of massacres, and putting them all under "genocide denialist" label is a) likely unfair b) dangerous. Some of those raise legitimate concerns, some less so. My general attitude (which doesn't have anything with any sort of revisionism of mine) is that we should avoid ugly namecalling and let the readers reach their own conclusions. Call it "overt political correctness" if you like, but see also WP:BLP: thus, I don't mind "alternative" or "sceptic", less so "revisionist", and I fail to see any actual relevant "denialist" view. Here's an interesting reading: [2] (ad nauseam: I don't provide it because I endorse it, just because it gives an overview of additional sceptic views). Duja► 10:24, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Duja, you miss the point in dismissing the issue as one of namecalling. The article had a section "Denial of the massacre, revisionism and scepticism". You seem confident in your understanding of what has gone on here in the recent past so it puzzles me that you are describing what has happened as "putting them all under the heading of "genocide denialist"".

You say that you don't see any actual relevant "denialist" view when there has just been a lengthy exchange here on the subject of Lewis MacKenzie's view that happened could not have been genocide - which he expressed over a year after the Appeals Chamber of the ICTY had considered the line reasoning that he advanced and had confirmed that genocide under the terms of the Genocide Convention had taken place.

We have recently had the argument put forward at some length that the man on the street has a different view of genocide and so the rulings of the ICTY and the text of the Genicide Convention can be legitimately disregarded.

You say that the relevant views don't deny the scale of "massacres" when MacKenzie's downward revision of the figure accepted by the ICTY is repeatedly cited and only a month or so ago someone was claiming that only 2000 people had been killed.

Your analysis substantially misrepresents what has been going on here. It's not namecalling, it's not a game. And I'm puzzled as to your purpose in posting a link to a page that contains a ragbag of many of the "alternative views" points that have been dealt with here already - including the view that"What happened in Srebrenica was not a single large massacre of Muslims by Serbs, but rather a series of very bloody attacks and counterattacks over a three year period which reached a crescendo in July of 1995." What exactly are you trying to say with all this?

--Opbeith 11:16, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith, we seem to talk past each other. I don't see how I "misrepresent what was going here", when you can see for yourself that 90% of edits in the article and 90% of talk page space were devoted to the section currently called "alternative views", and most of it was how to phrase those views. As for my statement that "no-one seriously suggested 2000 as the figure", I see I was wrong and I retract that, although you'll agree that MacKenzie just questions the total death toll not-really-suggesting 2000 as the figure. Nowhere did I say or hinted that it was a game either (nor I think it is), nor I have any intention to play with numbers.
As for the link I provided, I already wrote the disclaimer; sorry, I don't feel compelled to write a 100-word sentence "this-is-the-view-of-some-people-but-it-doesnt-have-anything-to-do-with-my-opinion" next to every sentence of mine. I provided it in good faith, in case anyone wishing to expand or clarify that section can find some material for research and/or see what we're talking about (what are we talking about, btw?). I don't think that "The Revisionist" is a reliable source and I don't plead by any means to include that in the article; it does quote some people which might be relevant though.
But, can we stay on topic, please? Is the phrase "Alternative views" acceptable (I'm not too happy with it, either)? If not, how it should be titled? "Scepticism" comes to my mind as a potentially useful word stronger than "alternative" (and, yet again disclaimer, I don't avoid calling "denialist" someone who is an outright denialist). Duja► 13:03, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Duja, your reference to "namecalling" suggested that the discussion of the words used to describe the positions that people took with respect to the question of genocide, the scale of the massacre and its reality was a simply a matter of personal disputation. If it's not a serious issue concerning the meaning of the words we use, then it's just a game.

The person who I was referring to who suggested the 2000 figure was not MacKenzie, it was an individual who posted to the Discussion page just before Christmas.

You say you don't avoid calling "denialist" someone who is an outright denialist, but you said that you didn't see any actual relevant "denialist" view. How are we going to define "outright denial"? MacKenzie questioning the view that what happened at Srebrenica was genocide when the ICTY Appeals Chamber's ruling on genocide at Srebrenica taking account of the issue of the transfer of women and children had been in the public domain for over a year seems to fall quite clearly into that category. --Opbeith 13:25, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

My use of term "namecalling" was inadvertently sloppy; I couldn't foresee it would be subject to such scrutiny. Well, fine, substitute it with "phrase". One way or another, if I thought it was a game, I certainly wouldn't spend so much time discussing it.
However, several editors have expressed concerns that "genocide denialist" is a libelous and loaded term, which should be avoided, especially regarding WP:BLP. We don't disagree about the substance fo MacKenzies views, and don't dispute the references, but their qualification is an editorial decision. Even if I might agree with your qualification of MacKenzie's statements. I'm trying to say is that we should err on the side of caution.
On the other hand, some stuff in the section regarding Serbia and Serbs' position in the article is outright wrong, i.e. the one that "Serbia, officially, has condemned the massacre from the very beginning". I watched the news at the time and I can tell you first-hand that it was met with utter silence and glorification of liberation, covered by Mladic's speech in front of frightened crowd of Bosniaks (I don't recall whether there were adult men in that crowd) regarding "how they have nothing to worry about and that they will get protected by VRS".
And, finally, another couple of interesting links NY Times Op. Ed. Vreme article on Scorpions (Serbian). Duja► 14:15, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Duja, I'm not trying to catch you out. I'm just emphatic about drawing attention to the implications of what is being said because it's important.

I don't class Lewis MacKenzie as a "genocide denialist", as I'd understand that term, in that I'm not aware of evidence of him having formally expressed his support for or having participated in a systematic effort to deny the fact of genocide at Srebrenica. The term hadn't in fact been used here before. The term we'd been discussing was "genocide denier"

From the evidence of his own words (his July 2005 article in the Globe and Mail) it's clear that MacKenzie questions the legal finding that genocide took place at Srebrenica, a finding that was arrived at after due consideration had been given to the argument MacKenzie expresses as "if you're committing genocide, you don't let the women go".

MacKenzie contests the ruling of the ICTY and its deliberations on the Genocide Convention. As a private individual with no specialist legal expertise he refutes the finding of genocide made by the competent legal authority. It's clear as daylight - MacKenzie is saying that what happened at Srebrenica should not be considered as genocide, in other words he denies that what happened at Srebrenica was genocide.

Having said that, I'm certainly happy to agree with you that there are parts of the article that do need calm review and reorganisation. And like you I remember the horror of those chilling pictures of Mladic reassuring those fearful children whom he was preparing to make orphans.--Opbeith 19:16, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Could someone notify the appropriate authorities about Osli using a sockpuppet to avoid his parole and have him blocked? There is no reason why anyone should have to listen to this person. Thank you. 89.146.136.242 20:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Well Osli, you again! After your sockpuppet role?! Come on man! Try to be honest sometimes. Emir Arven 19:07, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Osli. Your disputed tag was removed by an admin, and the admin happens to be of Serbian ancestry. It's obvious that support for your actions is diminishing, even among Serbs. The number is not 7,000 but 8,000 as confirmed by the United States Congressional Hearing on Srebrenica ( read here ). Let's not constantly play with number, we are not toddlers. 1. When it comes to "the exact number of kiilled" - there is no such number, as new mass graves are being discovered every month. It's a work in process, and as you know - DNA identification process is painstakingly slow and will take years to complete, so we can put names to the each victim. 2. I have no problem with presenting revisionist views unless they are placed in revisionist category. If you read the article, you will see that we mentioned Naser Oric's killing of 11 civilians in Kravice (please don't forget that before Oric killed 11 Serb civilians, 100s of Bosniak civilians were slaughtered by Serbian army). Also, MacKenzie's revisionist views were presented as they are. 3. I think rape accusations should be included, but for now, let's just avoid dealing with it. We all want to avoid another edit war, don't we? 4. Well, it could be useful to shorten the article, but when I say "shorten" I mean "paraphrase" longer paragraphs and make them shorter and more to the point. I am not sure would it be useful to categorize "disputed" issues... How about we categorize revisionist issues? Why is it so hard for you to accept the term "revisionism"? It's a widely used historical term. Bosniak 19:14, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Ex Osli73 semper aliquot aliquod novum. "My general feeling is that no one editing this article has disputed that some 7000 or more were killed or that it was a massacre and defined as genocide by the ICTY."

Forget that today someone claimed here that the ICTY can't be said to be an independent and reliable source, likewise the lengthy exchange that argued that the man in the street's definition or Lewis MacKenzie's definition of genocide should take precedence over the ICTY's or the Genocide Convention's. On 27 January you yourself were remarking at my Discussion page "Whether the casualties in the Tuzla column should be included can of course be discussed - though, again, the editors of the article aren't really the ones who should make that judgement. Attacking less well armed opponents with the intent to kill is quite common, but is generally not referred to as "genocide" or "massacre" ..."

The next day on your Discussion page, after informing me that I obviously saw the Tuzla column as unarmed refugees (when I had discussed the difference between and relative proportions of armed members of the column and the unarmed civilians fleeing the imminent prospect of extermination), you said that you saw the column as being "the poorly armed remnants of the 28th Division".

If you disregard the civilian members of the column who were slaughtered while prisoners in the custody of the VRS on the grounds that they are military casualties, how do you get to the figure you say you accept? And if you're suggesting that we shouldn't "generally consider" the deaths of people you've identified as "less well armed opponents" to be "genocide" how do you reconcile that point of view with the ICTY's ruling?

It's impossible ever to be certain what your circumlocutions mean, where you'll be shifting your position to next or what arbitrary action you're about to spring on us. That's why it's not as easy as you suggest to discuss these issues with you.

OK, Duja, Jitse, I'll delete this one myself as soon as you tell me to. --Opbeith 19:20, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Excellent response Opbeith. I would also like to add that we are not here to defend or apologize for Bosniak actions, but we are here to contribute our knowledge to this article. Osli, the attack on communist army (JNA - Yugoslav People's Army) in Tuzla is a separate issue. Tuzla is not Srebrenica, it has nothing to do with Srebrenica. However, if you want to discuss this issue in another article - you are more than welcome to do so. We should keep on topic with Srebrenica article and refrain from writing essays encompasing all Balkan events. Bosniak 19:44, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak, you've got hold of the wrong Tuzla column. Osli73 and I were discussing the people "killed in fighting", as he described the members of the column of 12,000-15,000, approximately two thirds of them unarmed civilians, who died trying to escape from Srebrenica and make their way towards Tuzla. Members of the column made up the large majority of the victims at Srebrenica when they were slaughtered as defenceless prisoners. --Opbeith 19:54, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Again, quite obviously this is a controversial article with differences of opinion and understanding of the events and how they should be presented. So, therefore it would seem quite logical to have a contested-tag added to the article. It is of course equally understandable that those who feel that the article today reflects their views are not interested in a contested or pov tag.

• Regarding the numbers killed, which Bosniak raised, I have given numerous examples of how the most commonly used figure is between 7-8000 with the note that the exact number is not known. In light of that, it would seem very odd for this article to, with such certainty, state that over 8300 were killed, based on a document which includes missing and killed.
• Regarding the Tuzla column, which Opbeith brought up, I have simply argued that it would, for example, be questionable to include soldiers killed in fighting (no matter how uneven the armaments were) be included in the numbers of people killed in the massacre.
• To categorize all persons who don't believe that >8300 persons were killed, especially given that the numbers are so uncertain, as a 'revisionist', with the sinister connotations (ie "Holocaust revisionists") this is meant to give is POV.
• It is quite apparent that the allegations against Mackenzie back in the 1990s were part of a political smear campaign against him. To mention it here is nothing but a continuation of the same smear campaign.
• Finally, I completely agree with Bosniak that the article should be shortened/pruned.

Regards Osli73 23:49, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Osli73, perhaps you might deal with the specific point I raised about how your position with regard to the Tuzla column makes nonsense of your position on other matters.

Whatever you, I or anybody else thinks about whether the article needs shortening/pruning, you should be well aware that your record disqualifies you from acting as arbiter on the subject. --Opbeith 00:50, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith, we've been over the Tuzla column issue several times. I don't see how my position on that contradicts my position on "other matters" (which ones are you referring to, if I may ask). As for being disqualified from editing this article, well, I'm sure this would be very convenient for you and for anyone else who doesn't wish to discuss these contentious issues. However, this is not up to you. Regards Osli73 00:56, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Osli73, We may have "been over" the Tuzla column issue several times but I still can't see where I get a plain answer from you.

If you hold that all the members of the column were members of the 28th Division of the BiH Army and hence combattants, that the members of the column who died were "killed in fighting" and that "attacking less well armed opponents with the intent to kill is quite common, but is generally not referred to as "genocide" or "massacre"" I don't see how this is consistent with your stated position that you accept the figure of 8000 victims of the massacre and you accept the fact of genocide at Srebrenica.

It's this inconsistency between what you claim to accept in one breath and what you believe in another that makes me challenge the sincerity with which one or other of these views is being expressed. I'm aware that questioning your sincerity is going to get me deleted again but despite the scruples of editors who are willing to allow you free rein, the Wikipedia "Assume Good Faith" guidelines [3] provide adequate justification for comment on a pattern of provocative and disruptive interventions. --Opbeith 10:28, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, someone seems to have edited out Osli73's last contribution. When I raised the issue of Osli73 using the identity of KarlXII and this was deemed an unacceptable personal comment. Osli73's explanation that this was an error was accepted. So it's been decided that we have to go on putting up with him. That said, I'm grateful to the editor for relieving me of the tedium of returning to Osli73's inability to deal in a straightforward way with challenges to his logic/good faith. --Opbeith 13:35, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith, this is getting quite tedious. I'm saying that

1. if a more or less well armed column of men as part of a formal military unit, in this case the 28th Division of the BiH Army are attacked while trying to escape this may be unfair, but it's not a "massacre". This report by the RS Government on the massacre (page 12 and onwards) describes it.
2. However, if they are captured and then killed as POW, then this certainly is a "massacre".
3. Therefore, to include all those 8300 identified persons "killed and missing" around Srebrenica around the time of the Serb takeover of the town in the number of persons killed in the Srebrenica massacre is stretching the truth.
4. As for the numbers killed in the massacre, I don't know. Most sources (see the list further down on the Talk page) say somewhere between 7-8000. So, that's what I believe and what I think the article should say as well.
5. The Srebrenica massacre doens't become any more or less Genocide just wether or not 7000, 8000 or more than 8300 persons were killed there. It's still Genocide.

Regards Osli73 23:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Osli73, don't you realize that you just used the Serb Government Report on Srebrenica to justify your sick claims? You have just used the "source" who previously publicly denied genocide in Srebrenica. You are actually sourcing Hitlers claims against Jews and you personally justify them and give them credibility with accepting that genocide happened, but also accepting that some of Jews that Hitler killed were in fact worth killing. This is sick. I am taking vacation for a day or two. This is just sick. Bosniak 04:17, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak:

1. Calm down.
2. Please read what I read. I said that the if a more or less well armed column of men as part of a formal military unit, in this case the 28th Division of the BiH Army are attacked while trying to escape this may be unfair, but it's not a "massacre". The report by the RS Government on the massacre (page 12 and onwards) describes the RS Army's attacks on the column of the 28th Division heading for Tuzla. Please see pages 12-20.
3. The report in question does not deny that there was a massacre. In it's conclusion on p. 32 it writes that "several thousands of Bosniaks were liquidated, in a manner that represents a severe violation of International Humanitarian Law and that the perpetrators, among the others, undertook measures to cover up the crime by reallocating the bodies". I find that it appears to be a quite detailed and thourough report.

There is no reason to charge into a tirade about Hitler. Cheers Osli73 08:37, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Osli73, the report seems rather more detailed than your account suggests. It contains the following on page 12 - "After the invasion of Srebrenica, part of the population (between 10,000 and 15,000) gathered in villages Jaglic and Susnjari looking for way out towardsthe territory under control of the RbiH Army. About one third of men were soldiers of 28th Division, but not all of them were armed. Units of the 28th Division were leading the column of civilians (women, children and old men), while the Independent Battalion of the 28th Division was on the rear of the column." That's rather different from the description you've repeated in our exchanges about the Tuzla column - "more or less well armed column of men as part of a formal military unit, in this case the 28th Division of the BiH Army".

You're one of these people who are very insistent in telling other people how to use sources. I think you could be a little bit less misleading in the use of your own sources. --Opbeith 13:32, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Op, yes, you are correct that there is a difference between this report's description of the Tuzla column ("About one third of men were soldiers of 28th Division, but not all of them were armed") and my comment earlier of it (a "more or less well armed column of men as part of a formal military unit"). However, keep in mind that our discussion of the nature of the Tuzla column was about why the total number "killed and missing" might not equate to the number of people who were executed in the actual massacre. It was a discussion about the scope of the definition of the massacre. Regards Osli73 15:37, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Whatever. You misrepresented your source to me again. --Opbeith 17:50, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Jonatanmills is quoting "emperors clothes", disgusting Srebrenica genocide denial and pro-Milosevic web site, which lowers his credibility to zero. Bosniak 22:53, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, just saw this here -- apparently, quoting from 'Emperor's Clothes' makes my credibility 'zero'. Actually, if you read that article I posted about Milosevic, you would see that it in fact reduces the credibility of *mainstream Western sources* to zero, as they have contradicted *themselves* in the service of war propaganda!

Jonathanmills 06:09, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Jonathan, the 'Emperor's Clothes' website it not generally deemed a credible or very serious source of information or commentary. I have never seen any of their material published or referred to in mainstream media. However, I guess it could possibly be used as an example of criticism of the majority view. Regards Osli73 08:40, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Hardly surprising, is it, that it is not published in the mainstream media, given that it *proves* the mainstream media to be liars! But this is probably off the topic a bit, anyway. Cheers Osli.

Jonathanmills 00:13, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Duja

Hi Duja. I thought you were Serbian (well I guess you are), but based on the information you posted on your website, you are also a Bosnian. In fact, you were born and lived in the region I came from. No matter how you feel, you are full blooded Bosnian, and I am glad you are respecting your Bosnian roots and not trying to vandalize Srebrenica Genocide article. I have sent you an email, so drop me a line. Cheers. Bosniak 19:04, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Lewis MacKenzie rape allegations

I was under the impression that we'd come to an agreement that those ridiculous rape allegations have no place in this article. Do I have to keep this article on my watchlist forever to keep removing them? User:Emir Arven, please review the talk page history; I'm not going to waste everyone's time reposting the arguments again. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 20:06, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

We didn't agree that the rape allegations were ridiculous and we didn't agree that they had no place in this article. What we did agree was that without them there were already sufficient grounds to question Lewis MacKenzie's authority as a commentator on matters relating to Srebrenica without needing to mention the allegations. --Opbeith 20:12, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

They are patently ridiculous. The original allegations were fabricated; the current ones run over the same tired ground. No charges have been filed; a prosecutor engaged in idle gossip with an AFP reporter, having initiated no legal proceedings whatsoever. The allegations have been repeatedly added to the article for the past several months in an attempt to smear MacKenzie's name as an ad hominem attack on his character. Let's just stick to the facts. Ad hominem arguments simply make you look desperate, as if you believe that the simple facts aren't enough to make your point. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 20:28, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

The rape allegations against Mackenzie are quite obviously attempts by some Bosniak groups to try to smear someone who is perceived as a critic.To reiterate them here has nothing to do with his credibility as a commentator on Bosnian affairs (which is why he is allowed to express his opinions in mainstream western media). It's the same as if/when Serb groups add charges of "islamic fundamentalism" to try to smear Bosniak politicians. Cheers Osli73 21:00, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Osli73, please don't...you have no shame, just remember when you pretented to be Karl in order to promote Serb propaganda! Emir Arven 03:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Osli or whoever you are now, the sentence is info about re-opening the investigation based on testimonies of raped women. Show some respect to the victims. Emir Arven 22:05, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

User:Emir Arven: Please review the recent talk page history; we've been over these arguments repeatedly. Opbeith: You have complained that you can never take the time to work on the substance of the article because you have to continually revisit old arguments. Here's a demonstration of why that happens. It appears from the edit history here and on other talk pages, including User talk:Osli73, that this politically motivated smear has been removed many, many times over the past several months, with exhaustive discussion about the source of the original fabrication, and the reasons why this ad hominem argument has no place here. Can I ask you to show some respect for WP:NPOV and drop this, please? -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 22:20, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Emir Arven, regarding "Show some respect to the victims.": With all due respect, alleged victims. A local prosecutor engaged in idle gossip with an AFP reporter. He has not filed charges; Lewis MacKenzie has not been charged with any crime. The only reason for continually juxtaposing MacKenzie's comments with those unsubstantiated rape allegations is to serve as an ad hominem attack on his character. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 22:30, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

No, we don't know yet, because the investigation is re-opened (it was also opened during the war, because MacKenzie was well known by his friendship with today most wanted people that are hiding from justice, the war criminals Ratko Mladic and Radovan Karadzic responsible for this genocide). But I put just the fact that the investigation was re-opened. Emir Arven 03:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Emir said:

MacKenzie was well known by his friendship with today most wanted people that are hiding from justice, the war criminals Ratko Mladic and Radovan Karadzic responsible for this genocide).

Emir, with all due respect, that's ridiculous. MacKenzie's responsibilities in Sarajevo required him to have a working relationship -- not a "friendship" -- with all sides of the conflict. If you read his book, you'll find that his life was threatened by the JNA because they got it into their heads that he was personally responsible for a Bosnian ambush of JNA troops. As far as I can tell, the reality in the Balkans is that you're either an ally or an enemy -- nobody is accepted as being sincerely neutral.

But I put just the fact that the investigation was re-opened.

Just in passing, you added that comment using a non-reliable source that isn't even in English. Emir, can I ask you to honestly examine your motives for adding it? Is it possible that you added it because you believe MacKenzie is a Serb-loving, Bosniak-hating criminal, and calling him a rapist casts doubt on his credibility as a military analyst? The allegations themselves were known to have been fabricated when they came out of Borislav Herak's mouth in 1992. I spent far more time than I ever wanted to explaining all of this last month. These new allegations repeat the same old outrageous fabrications about MacKenzie raping Bosnian women in "Camp Sonja", a site that he never visited. It's now several months after Oleg Cavka gossiped to a reporter, and he still hasn't initiated any actual legal proceedings. Adding vague and unsubstantiated allegations as you've done here violates WP:NPOV#Undue weight:

'Undue weight applies to more than just viewpoints. Just as giving undue weight to a viewpoint is not neutral, so is giving undue weight to other verifiable and sourced statements. An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements.

The only possible reason for juxtaposing MacKenzie's comments about the Srebrenica massacre with the observation that a local prosecutor had a chat with an AFP reporter about rape allegations is to tell readers that this witness is not to be trusted. That's not how you go about writing an WP:NPOV encyclopedia article.

There's certainly good reason for including that {{Round In Circles}} template at the top of this page. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 04:14, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Did you read the testimony of a raped woman from Sonja? Emir Arven 15:55, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Testimony! Perfect, now we're getting somewhere. Yes, please, Emir. I would love to read testimony reported by a reliable source. Please read WP:RS first, and note that Bosniak's blog is not a reliable source. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 21:56, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Jim Douglas, on the whole I agree with you that until charges have been laid and proven the victims should be referred to as alleged victims. That's potentially hurtful to people who have a far closer personal acquaintance with matters than you or I but if we are observing the principle of "verifiability" rather than "truth" then that's the line we should try to follow where it's reasonable.

The rape allegations are relevant and important in that they have a bearing on MacKenzie's apparent partiality towards the Bosnian Serb leadership (going beyond the requirements of a "working relationship") and subsequently his endorsement of Bosnian Serb perspectives. But MacKenzie is only relevant to Srebrenica insofar as his opinions are regularly cited in support of tendentious arguments about the scale of the massacre and the fact of genocide. His unreliability has been adequately demonstrated. That's why I'm not convinced that the allegations need to remain in place here.

But with all your insistence on observing legal niceties you actually misrepresent the position regarding the laying of charges against MacKenzie. And I also find it disturbing that you consider it appropriate to lecture people about observing the niceties of libel law who have actually been on the receiving end of genocide, an area where you consider anything goes and feel free to disregard and reinterpret the provisions and findings of international law. --Opbeith 09:15, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I think I should add that in Emir Arven's exasperated response to Osli73 it's clear to me that in the context of the Bosnian war where rape was used as a weapon of war it's legitimate to refer to women who say they have been raped should as victims plain and simple unless there's a concrete reason for disbelieving them. That's a separate issue from the matter of acknowledging that the identity of the perpetrator remains unproven. --Opbeith 09:31, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith, it's quite clear that the original accusations of rape against Mackenzie were part of a propaganda war. That is why no respectable western media cover this or give it any credence. The Bosnian government, just as the Bosnian Serb government, the Croatian government and the Serbian government all engaged in propaganda, including exaggerating civilian casualties, gory details of beheadings, mujahedeen, etc etc. Just as rape was used as a "weapon of war" it was also used as a "weapon of propaganda" in the war. This is one very clear example of this. To qualify a persons comments with "alleged rapist" is not serious. To include it in the article would reduce its quality (even more). Regards Osli73 01:24, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I have removed a number of original comments regarding Mackenzie in the article.

1. To begin with, these were typical examples of original research and not sourced.
2. To a certain extent they were simply stating the obvious, eg that he disputes the numbers killed or that he apparently doens't agree with the findings of the ICTY.

Why not just say that there are also non-Serb commentators who don't agree with the view presented by the ICTY and then give examples of what some of them have said, including Mackenzie. There is no need to try to tarnish them with fake rape allegations or various allegations. Regards Osli73 10:29, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

My take on this article

Editing this article, there are a few: (1) a few Serb revisionists (2) a few hyperbolic Bosnians (3) a few sane people working towards an accurate article

In any case, edit wars by groups (1) and (2) have made editting this article by group (3) completely pointless. The goal of the first two groups is to push their version of reality as much as possible without getting banned from Wikipedia. Logic and argument are useless, because groups (1) and (2) aren't listenning to logical argument. They respond only to power, the threat of getting banned, and on Wikipedia, the standard for getting banned is quite high. There are really no penalties for raising bogus objections, making intermittent false edits, and otherwise being a massive nuisance.

I'm not editting this article because it's a massive waste of time. I could make a few changes, but protecting the changes, arguing on talk page etc..., would be an absolute full time job. If MacKenzie comes in and sues Wikipedia for libel, fine with me. That's what Wikipedia deserves for having a barely policed process that lets intellectually dishonest editors hijack an article because they have more free time. As far as I can tell, the only way to get banned is to blatantly vandalize, make personal threats or violate the 3 revert rule, other than that, everything appears to be fair game. -- Mgunn 05:40, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Mgunn, I share your frustration but at the same time I'm aware that this isn't an academic exercise. Knowledge doesn't exist in isolation from the real world. We're not engaged in describing a herbarium specimen. We're dealing with an event that has destroyed and continues to destroy people's lives.

We need to distinguish between attempts to promote a biased account of history and the irruption of understandable and proper anger when experience is being traduced. We're in the immensely privileged position of being able to take a relatively detached position, we should be careful how we judge the actions of others. --Opbeith 08:40, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Why shouldn't this be an academic exercise? Why should emotion have anything to do with this article at all? I'm disappointed with the constant conflict mentality. In the brief period I've watched this article there has been this constant barrage of inappropriate edits: some people keep trying to take out any reference to "genocide" and other people keep inserting stuff like this wild MacKenzie stuff. The allegation of rape against a Canadian general while on active duty is an absolutely extraordinary allegation. I'm not Canadian, but I have great confidence in their legal system and military, and if there anything to the allegation, I'm sure they would have taken action. Also, the idea that a NATO military officer should be turned over to a foreign country for alleged actions while on active duty is also extraordinary. The position being argued regarding MacKenzie is an absolutely radical position both with regard to facts and international politics/law. -- Mgunn 11:45, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't claim to have any knowledge of the precise legal situation so I would hope to be corrected by anyone with better information. The crux of the matter appears to be that MacKenzie has diplomatic immunity. The Bosnian prosecutor's office wishes to interview him. Unless he has been interviewed charges can't be brought in the Bosnian courts. Because MacKenzie has diplomatic immunity he does not need to respond to requests for an interview. The Canadian government is being lobbied to encourage MacKenzie to waive his immunity and agree to attend an interview, which I presume could be arranged on Canadian soil. I don't think that at this stage it's a question of the Canadian government simply "turning him over". --Opbeith 13:10, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Former General Lewis Mackenzie is already under investigation in Bosnia and he was invited to respond to charges of rape. Serbian and leftist web sites are posting distorted and highly suspicious material trying to prove that he is innocent, etc. Well, let him face rape victims, let him answer charges. If he is innocent, then be it. He has been avoiding responsibility for too long. And he's been paid by Serb lobby to hold speeches. I mean, the guy is obviously pro-Serbian, there is no question about that. Is he guilty of rape? I don't know - let the courts speak. He claims he didn't do it. However, he never wanted even to bother to visit Supreme Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina and answer allegations of rape. Jim Douglas, Osli73, and similar people will continue to disrupt this article - as they do right now. It is not my responsibility to police them. You know well when I react to vandalism that I either get blocked or banned. There is a clear double standard, however, I tend to assume good faith. What I learned here is that it's imposible to reason with unreasonable, so I don't take it to heart as I did in the past. Let's stop this endless Mackenzie discussion. He's not that important. Cheers. Bosniak 07:29, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak, please don't mischaracterize other editors; it's not polite. Your definition of disruption and vandalism appears to be any contributions from editors who disagree with you. As far as being blocked for "reverting vandalism", I'm sorry; I don't see it. Here's your block log; which one of these was you getting blocked for "reverting vandalism"?

1. "No personal attacks"
2. "threatening legal action"
3. "vandalizing AfD votes"
4. "3RR"
5. "disruption, revert-warring, trolling, incivility - discussed on ANI"

For the record, I did stop the MacKenzie discussion. After a long, painful week, I was under the impression that we'd reached a consensus to omit unsubstantiated rape allegations -- and yet here they are again. Since we're all agreed that we'd like to stop this endless MacKenzie discussion, can I ask you to remove it from the article, please? -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 07:55, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

No because it is not info about rape allegations, but about re-starting investigation. The problem is that he never showed up in Bosnia, in Courte to answer some questions. So, when you mentioned his Serb-frinedship, it might me the truth:

Lewis and Serbian Unity Congress

Lewis - SUC

While it is difficult to ascertain exactly how much has been directed towards payment for speakers and journalists, the SUC [Serbian Unity Congress] and Serbnet have set up a special fund for this purpose. Based on former UN General Lewis MacKenzie's own admission which was later corroborated by Serbnet -- that he was receiving over $15,000 per speaking engagement -- the amount spent on MacKenzie represents more than what the SUC is paying to PR firms such as Manatos and Manatos, Inc.[4]

But just, who is Gen. Lewis MacKenzie? To answer that question, one must go back to 1992. In December - same year - the chief Bosnian military prosecutor in Sarajevo, Mustafa Bisic, formally charged Gen. Lewis MacKenzie with sexual misconduct against civilians while on duty in Bosnia, and requested that the UN revoke his displomatic immunity. MacKenzie was accused of raping several Bosnian women being held captive in a Serbian prison camp, as a "gift" from Serbian officials. The victims were later executed by Serbian soldiers, allegedly to 'erase evidence'.

Here is an archived version of investigative article published on June 4th, 1993 by Pacific News Services:

(...)

In a letter to the Bosnian president dated Dec. 3, 1992, Bisic cited the eyewitness testimony of a Serbian guard who had worked at the camp, known as Kod Sonje. The guard claimed he saw MacKenzie and several escorts arrive in a military transport vehicle with the UN insignia. The eyewitness claimed guards were then ordered to release four Bosnian Muslim women prisoners to MacKenzie. According to the prosecutor's complaint, the women were later murdered by camp guards under orders to "erase evidence" of this "unusual gift."

This is just according to Serb guard, you can read more in the source that I provided. Investigation started in 1992, is re-opened now, because new evidence came out.Emir Arven 16:13, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Emir, the organization you are referring to (www.freeserbia.net) doesn't have any address and only claims to be run by "Serbs who live in exile." You should know that setting up websites pruporting to respresent groups which in fact don't exist is a quite common media strategy (eg used by the Russian govt in lobbying for recognition of Transdniestr region in Moldova). The information you are referring to is collected by people described as follows:

"Students Against GEnocide (SAGE) -- Project Bosnia is a national student organization based at Stanford University and is an affiliate of the American Committee to Save Bosnia. Over the past eighteen months SAGE has been monitoring the activities of Serbian activists in the San Francisco Bay Area as part of an on-going campaign to discredit Serb-nationalist apologists and revisionists. The information presented in this briefing was collected from a vast number of sources. This includes personal correspondence, private meetings and forums organized by the Serbian Unity Congress and its affiliated groups. This briefing was written by Brad K. Blitz, a Ph.D. candidate in international development education at Stanford University.

So, to say that they are part of the "Serb guard" is a little bit misleading. The SUC is in fact the largest Serbian organization in the United States. Regards Osli73 14:12, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Editing in and out of existence

Laughing Man, I understood that you were supposed to be discussing your edits, rather than making them on an arbitrary basis. Nevertheless it's interesting to see Osli73's eccentricities returned to public inspection. Now perhaps you'd be so kind as to consult with Jitse and Duja about restoring other contributions that you've all chosen to dispose of without any form of prior discussion. --Opbeith 15:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Is it about this article? If it is yet another personal attack, please do not waste your time. I have restored relevant comments deleted (about this article) deleted by 89.146.128.58. It seems some editors here are more focused on getting the attention off the problems with this article and on to other editors instead. Please try comment on the article content, not the contributors here. Thank you. // Laughing Man 15:25, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Scorpions

I have removed the comment about the Scorpions being "special state security forces of Serbia" from the intro text. While it is clear that the Scorpions did indeed participate, it is not clear that they were, at the time, under the command of Serbia. This IWPR article goes into quite a bit of depth on the issue, saying:

The question that will necessarily arise at the tribunal, should the tape showing the executions be admitted into evidence, is under whose command the Scorpions operated in the summer of 1995 when they are alleged to have killed the six Muslim men and boys in Trnovo. The prosecution at the tribunal claim that the Milosevic-led Serbian security authorities were in charge of the unit, while the former Belgrade leader has insisted that it was under the control of the Croatian Serb authorities.

According to IWPR sources, the Scorpions at the time of the atrocity were formally part of the 11th Corps of the VRSK, the Army of the Republic of Serb Krajina, the self-proclaimed Croatian Serb statelet.

Medic, in testimony given a few years ago in a case involving one of his former comrades, said the Scorpions unit was formed in 1991, initially to provide security for the eastern Slovonian oil fields. He added that in 1996 it became a reserve unit in the Serbian Public Security Service Special Anti-Terrorist Unit, SAJ.

This was confirmed last week at the Milosevic trial, when witness General Obrad Stevanovic, the former Serbian assistant interior minister, told the court that “the earliest point that [the Scorpions] could have been [subordinated to the Serbian interior ministry] would have been after the end of the war in Krajina, after mid 1996 or perhaps slightly earlier [that year]”.

A recently published report by the Serbian organised crime department into links between the Scorpions and the Belgrade authorities says that the paramilitary unit did not come under the command of the SAJ until March 1999.

Likewise, this Centre for Southeast European Studies article writes that "While the perpetrators and the victims of the crime shown on the tape have been identified, it remains unclear under whose command the unit was in July 1995.". In conclusion, it would appear to be pushing it to label the Scorpions as "Serbian" implies that they were Serbian state control while this is far from established. Regards Osli73 01:47, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

There is a trial in Belgrade now, against Serbian police unit, Scorpions, so don't spread bull shit! Emir Arven 07:39, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

You have already tried this once, when you were blocked because of your sockpuppet role, and we have been through this discussion, the information is sourced. Emir Arven 07:39, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Emir, no need to use this type of language. You are correct, that there is a trial going on in Belgrade of some of the members of the Scorpions unit. If you read the iwpr article (see above) you will see that it is hoped the trial will spread some light on under whose responsibility/command the Scorpions acted. Until then, it would be premature to say, or imply, that they acted on behalf of the Serbian/YU state. The two references you are referring are quite clear in saying that the link is not yet clear.

There is, as you are probably aware of, another trial going on at the Intl. Tribunal between BH and YU (now Serbia) regarding alleged Serbian involvement in the civil war in Bosnia, where the issue of the Scorpions chain of command is seen as important. Again, neither of these trials have been completed. So, until then, it would be wrong for the article to make this appear as fact. Regards Osli73 13:46, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

The Red Berets (Seb state security) were also sent to Bosnia, to take part in another massacre - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08ZZ4HcWQBY#GU5U2spHI_4 (Serb paramilitary leader talking about their involvement). You can recall Red Berets from the crackdown on them after the Dindic murder. --HanzoHattori 10:50, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Hanzo, this may very well have been the case, though I don't think the editors should draw their own conclusions from a Youtube film. As for the Scorpions, since neither Emir nor anyone else has produced any stronger and credible evidence of the link, should I go ahead and remove the comment about the Scorpions and their link to the Serbian state? Regards Osli73 09:39, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I have interpreted the lack of reply to my comment above to mean that there are no wellfounded arguments against removing the mention of the Scorpions in the introduction. Cheers Osli73 21:37, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

See if you can remember discussions your sockpuppet participate in. Do you remember the link now? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.146.146.141 (talk) 22:12, 18 February 2007 (UTC).

I will repeat what I wrote earlier. This Centre for Southeast European Studies article writes that "While the perpetrators and the victims of the crime shown on the tape have been identified, it remains unclear under whose command the unit was in July 1995.". In conclusion, it would appear to be pushing it to label the Scorpions as "Serbian" implies that they were Serbian state control while this is far from established. The current text is a clear example of drawing your own conclusions, not supported by the text.Osli73 22:36, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

As I stated months ago when you were agreeing to that which you are now deleting, if American soldiers in Afghanistan participate in an action while under a European command structure, they do not cease to be American soldiers. The statement in the intro identifies the Scorpions as a "paramilitary unit from Serbia". They were a paramilitary unit from Serbia. You agree that they were a paramilitary unit from Serbia. But you disagree with the statement that they were a paramilitary unit from Serbia. Please tell us when this is supposed to make sense and why someone should spend their time repeatedly going in circles with you whether it is you Osli73 or one of your sockpuppets. Fairview360 23:08, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Osli73 - you arbitrarily delete my reference supporting Fairview360's reference with the comment "Scorpions; again, you are drawing your own conclusions. Pls read the source and what I included in the talk page - it is quite clear that this is far from decided." Please read the transcript I added and listen to the NPR clip:

National Public Radio programme "All Things Considered, June 3, 2005" - Dejan Anastasijevic of Vreme Magazine tells Melissa Block "... This specific paramilitary unit is not a Bosnian Serb unit, it is a unit which comes from Serbia and the people from the Unit were actually members of the Serbian police force, so this is the first hard evidence that Serbian troops from Serbia were involved in the Srebrenica massacre. So far Serbian authorities were always claiming that troops from Serbia were not involved in the Bosnian War, just Bosnian Serb units. ..."; [5]

Kindly inform me which part of that is my opinion and which part of it is Dejan Anastasijevic's remark. You didn't even bother to read it before you deleted it, did you? --Opbeith 00:59, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

The International Court of Justice, in its judgement in the case of Bosnia vs Serbia, has found that the Scorpions were neither de-jure nor de-facto Serbian or instruments of Serbia. In para. 389 it writes:

Judging on the basis of these materials, the Court is unable to find that the Scorpions” were, in mid-1995, de jure organs of the Respondent. Furthermore, the Court notes that in any event the act of an organ placed by a State at the disposal of another public authority shall not be considered an act of that State if the organ was acting on behalf of the public authority at whose disposal it had been placed.[6]

In para 413 it concludes:

As for the killings committed by the “Scorpions” paramilitary militias, notably at Trnovo (paragraph 289 above), even if it were accepted that they were an element of the genocide committed in the Srebrenica area, which is not clearly established by the decisions thus far rendered by the ICTY (see, in particular, the Trial Chamber’s decision of 12 April 2006 in the Stanišić and Simatović case, IT-03-69), it has not been proved that they took place either on the instructions or under the control of organs of the FRY.[7]

Based on these findings by the ICJ it is quite clear that it would be incorrect for the article to claim that the Scorpions were a Serbian unit or from Serbia. Cheers Osli73 00:46, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

• There is enough citation on the subject that it should at least be mentioned within the article. However, to preserve NPOV, International Court of Justice findings should be presented alongside. This only takes three sentences. Djma12 01:39, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Djma12, the Bosnian government has alleged that the Scorpions were from Serbia (ie controlled by and/or agents of Serbia). The ICJ has now found that this was not the case. To continue to include this 'allegation' here is not NPOV. A parallel would be to label the Srebrenica massacre as "alleged" although the ICTY has found that it was genocide. That it "only takes three sentences" isn't relevant if it isn't correct. Remove it. Regards Osli73 01:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Djma12, if we can't agree on this despite the clear judgement by the ICJ on the matter, the next step would be to ask for an opinion on the matter at Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view. Cheers Osli73 01:50, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Osli73 - deep breath -

The International Court of Justice, in its judgement in the case of Bosnia vs Serbia, did not find that "the Scorpions were neither de-jure nor de-facto Serbian or instruments of Serbia". Once again your sources tell a different story to the gloss you put on them. T ous your own quotes, "Judging on the basis of these materials, the Court is unable to find that the Scorpions were, in mid-1995, de jure organs of the Respondent." and "As for the killings committed by the "Scorpions" paramilitary militias, notably at Trnovo ... it has not been proved that they took place either on the instructions or under the control of organs of the FRY."

The ICJ has not, as you assert so confidently, found that it was not the case that the Scorpions were from Serbia (ie controlled by and/or agents of Serbia), it has simply found that the allegation was not proved. This was, obviously, on the basis of the evidence available to it. Of course, as you well know, one of the parties has been less than forthcoming in making relevant information available to international investigators.

Osli73, every time I read through one of your sources or quotes I find you misrepresenting its sense. --08:34, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Op, it's really quite simple.

• The Bosnian government accused the Scorpions of being under Serbian control or being agents of Serbia.
• The ICJ found that, based on all of the evidence provided, they were not.

It's the same as any other court case, not guilty is not guilty. Since innocent until proven guilty applies in the ICJ as well, the wording "not been proven" means "not guilty". I believe you are the one who is misunderstanding this. Why, I don't know. Regards Osli73 10:02, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I have no quarrel with the way you're setting it out now. But the ICJ did not find that "they were not Serbian" as you originally stated. It simply was not able to determine that "they were Serbian". The absence of a positive is not a negative. And we're not talking about the charges and the issue of guilt here, we're talking about the establishment of facts which precedes consideration of the issue of guilt. At this stage the level of proof was not sufficient for the ICJ to determine the fact of the matter either way, which is unfortunate. I accept that. But to return to the basic issue, given that evidence has been withheld, concealed and destroyed, it's not unreasonable in the absence of a legal determination and evidence refuting the fact to refer to the strength of the supporting circumstantial evidence and informed opinion. --Opbeith 12:02, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith,

1. if the question asked of the ICJ was wether or not the Scorpions were a Serbian paramilitary unit (ie under Serbian control or influence) the answer could either have been "yes, the evidence supports this" or "no, the evidence does not support this". If the former means "guilty" then the latter means "not guilty". The ICJ decided on the former. There is no black and white there.
2. in theory I'm not completely opposed to saying that judicial findings are not history and that in history circumstantial evidence should be given greater weight than in a court of law. However, given the extremely polarized and contested nature of this article, considering circumstantial evidence in opposition to judicial findings would open up a Pandora's box of POV statements. Eg we could say that the genocide (or indeed the overall circumstances of the massacre) is contested although the ICTY and the ICJ has affirmed it as such. Etc. I've long supported keeping strictly to the findings of the ICTY, ICJ and UN documents as a means to avoid (or at least reduce) conflicts over POV. Not applying this principle here will lead down that path.

Regards Osli73 16:48, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Osli73, although the issues touched on are crimes of the worst kind, the proceedings before the ICJ are civil proceedings, not criminal proceedings, so it's not a question of anyone being found guilty or not, or being innocent until proved guilty, it's a matter of whether the Applicant's allegations against the Respondent have been proved and whether Serbia can be held responsible in law for the wrongs done to Bosnia and its citizens.

You're right, the ICJ has determined that Serbia could not be held responsible for the genocide at Srebrenica, essentially because responsibility for the genocide at Srebrenica was attributed to the Bosnian Serbs through the VRS chain of command. Gen. Dannatt, when asked under whose control or whose authority the paramilitary groups coming from Serbia were operating, is quoted as having replied, "they would have been under the command of Mladić and part of the chain of the command of the VRS". Because the Court found that the Bosnian Serbs had some qualified, but real, margin of independence the Scorpions despite being referred to as "MUP of Serbia" and "a unit of Ministry of Interiors of Serbia" by Ljubiša Borovčanin and Savo Cvjetinović could not be seen as being de jure or de facto completely dependent on Serbia and hence organs of the Serbian state.

However the Court did not determine that they were not dependent organs. It referred to the Stanišić and Simatović case (IT-03-69) as possibly having relevance for illuminating the status of the Scorpions as Serbian MUP or otherwise but said that it could not draw further conclusions as that case was still at the indictment stage. The Court could only form its opinion on the basis of the information brought to its notice at the time it gives its decision and which emerged from the pleadings and documents in the case file and the arguments of the Parties made during the oral exchanges. It was on that basis that the Court found that "the acts of genocide at Srebrenica could not be attributed to the Respondent as having been committed by its organs or by persons or entities wholly dependent upon it".

With Mladić still hiding (with Serbian assistance) from the ICTY it has not been possible to elucidate the nature of his own relationship and that of the VRS with the Serbian authorities either. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, the Court maintains that he must be taken to have received his orders from Republika Srpska, not from the FRY. So the baseline is that the Court could only say that Serbia has not been shown to have been responsible for the acts of genocide. Not that Serbia was -not- responsible for them, simply that at the date of the hearing the evidence available to the Court was not substantial enough to constitute legally sufficient proof.

[8] ICJ Judgment on Application of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (Bosnia and Herzegovina v. Serbia and Montenegro) VII. The question of responsibility for events at Srebrenica under Article III, paragraph (a), of the Genocide Convention - (3) The question of attribution of the Srebrenica genocide to the Respondent on the basis of the conduct of its organs (paras 385-395)

As regards your idea that you've long supported keeping strictly to the findings of the ICTY, ICJ and UN documents as a means to avoid (or at least reduce) conflicts over POV, I'm having difficulty with the profile of my eyebrow muscles. The findings of positive proof we have in legal judgments confirmed on appeal certainly provide a baseline of established fact, beyond which there is no need and no justification to look further without good reason. So we can agree to accept the findings of the ICTY. We can also agree to accept the findings of UN reports in the absence of substantiated grounds for doubting veracity that was endorsed by the General Assembly or subsidiary organs.

But that's certainly not where you've stopped in the past, and not where I would stop if we're discussing evidence that doesn't contradict such findings. We've disagreed over the NIOD report and we've discussed areas where it may be considered defective while in other areas where it is not refuted or challenged we've accepted it can be a useful source. I've certainly have never argued that the baseline of legally established fact is the limit for including information. And neither have you. Do you not remember championing the inclusion of information that simply contradicted established legal fact, such as Lewis MacKenzie's Globe and Mail comments.

You can argue that the case that the Scorpions' dependency on the Serbian state hasn't been proven to the satisfaction of the ICJ. Nevertheless there is a reasonable body of evidence and informed opinion that makes such a claim that the Scorpions were acting under the arm's-length direction of the Serbian authorities and as long as it doesn't challenge established fact or reasonable credibility there's no reason why such evidence shouldn't be included.

Incidentally, when you were KarlXII didn't you say you were going to create an article on the Scorpions? --Opbeith 22:24, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Op,

1. yes, there are those who claim that the Scorpions were a Serbian unit, which was the Bosnian government's position in the recent ICJ court case
2. the ICJ has found that there was not sufficient evidence to prove this
3. I argued to include MacKenzie's comments, not because they are fact, but because they are an example of the deviating views with regards to the massacre. In this context, it would be OK to say that the Bosnian govt. alleges that the Scorpions were under Serbian control. However, the article should state that the ICJ has found that they were not under Serbian control.
4. I've taken the liberty of reworking the text a bit, basically putting much of the discussion in the footnote.
5. as for an article on the Scorpions, well, no. I may have suggested that someone else do this though, given that they have come to play such a central role in history.

Take it easy. Cheers Osli73 00:14, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

"Taking the liberty of reworking the text a bit" - what you mean is once again imposing your own version without discussion. Weren't you supposed to discuss edits as part of your "parole"? --Opbeith 00:45, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

~8000 vs >8300

The article current states that "at least 8300" were killed based on figures of "missing and killed". I advocate using "an estimated 8,000" since most estimates vary between 7-8000. Thus "an estimated 8000" seems fair. Some examples:

1. HRW ("“Safe Areas” for Srebrenica’s Most Wanted; A Decade of Failure to Apprehend Karadzic and Mladic, June 2005) uses ther words "between 7,000 and 8,000" [9]
2. The Enclyclopedia Britannica says "more than 7,000" http[://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9403267/Bosnia-and-Herzegovina]
3. "Accounting for Genocide: How Many Were Killed in Srebrenica?", European Journal of Population, Sept. 2003. It concludes that "We conclude that at least 7,475 persons were killed after the fall of Srebrenica." [10] and [11]
4. BBC writes "more than 7,000" ("Timeline: Siege of Srebrenica")[12]
5. CNN referst to "up to 8,000" ("Srebrenica: 'A triumph of evil'", May 2006)[13]
6. Domovina.net cites "Around 8000" ("Srebrenica : Introduction", May 2002)[14]
7. NIOD report writes that "The Yugoslavia Tribunal concluded that between 7000 and 8000 men were executed, although this does not allow for the possibility that some will have died during the march for any of a number of other reasons. Based on the Bosnian Serb figure of approximately 6000 'prisoners of war' captured by the VRS, it seems that of the 7500 missing persons, approximately 6000 faced execution while the others met their end through some other cause." (NIOD report, Part IV, Chapter 2:20, "Review")[15]
8. ICTY in its judgement against Krstic writes "between 7,000 – 8,000" (ICTY, April 2004, para. 2)[16]

Remember, Wikipedia is not the place for Original research. Regards Osli73 01:56, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not place for Serb propaganda, and you were blocked because of that, remember? The information about 8300 people is sourced with the detailed list of people killed. The list is a based on research conducted by an institution, Federal Comission for Investigation. Emir Arven 07:42, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Everybody, please control yourselves. You know that we must not make personal attacks in the form of reminding contributors that they have been blocked or that they have deliberately misled other contributors as to their identity. You know very well that we must only talk about the article, not the reality that lies behind the changes made to it. Osli73 is a protected species. Please be civil and stop causing offence to the Friends of Osli73. --Opbeith 23:28, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Hello, Friends of Osli73, thanks again for your suppport and assistance in maintaining the quality of Wikipedia's content and reputation. Your eagerness to leap on all references to Osli73's disruptive background and willingness to allow him free rein on his return perhaps explains why he now feels justified as part of his campaign to establish the non-existence of rape charges against Lewis MacKenzie in deleting my addition:

"These views propose a different definition of genocide to that contained in the International Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide. Writing in July 2005 MacKenzie chose not to refer to the ICTY Appeals Chamber's confirmation in April 2004 that the original Trial Chamber was correct in rejecting the defence that genocide could not have occurred because the women and children were transferred away from the area. The Canadian government has not publicised any intention to seek a revision of the Convention's wording.

MacKenzie's views also dispute the Appeal Chamber's finding in April 2004 that 7000-8000 Bosnian men and boys were murdered at Srebrenica although he offers no new evidence to contradict the Court's findings.

MacKenzie's views are frequently cited by commentators who are reluctant to accept the ICTY's findings."

Osli73 appears to consider these comments on a par with the rape allegations. So, Osli73, would you mind telling me why you object to me circulating these lies I invent? --Opbeith 01:06, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Emir, yes, you have used the Federal Commissions list of "missing and killed" as a reference. What I am saying, is that this doesn't necessarily equate the numbers killed in the massacre. This is also probably why most other sources (see list supplied above) cite figures between 7-8000. This has nothing to do with "Serb propaganda" (I'm interested, which of the above sources is it you are referring to?). Obviously, the exact number of persons killed is uncertain, which is why I prefer a more general comment like "7-8000" or "an estimated 8000". Regards Osli73 13:50, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Osli73, you tell me that you consider all the members of the Tuzla column to be poorly-armed members of the 28th Division of the BiH Army. You tell me that the killing of less-well armed opponents are not "generally considered" to be victims of a massacre or genocide. So where do you get all these estimated 8000 victims of a massacre that you accept was genocide. You can't say that there were 8000 victims and then define victimhood so that the only people you accept as victims are the number separated at Potocari, roughly 2000 as far as I know. Please let's have a bit of straight talking / thinking. --Opbeith 22:04, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

As a separate point, so that I hope you will answer it separately, you are constantly emphasising the "missingness" of a number of the victims as a reason for not accepting the list of reported names which have been memorialised at Potocari. The massacre occurred in 1995. It is now 2007. I understand, subject to correction by someone with more up-to-date / accurate legal information, that in English law a missing person can be declared dead by a court after a period fo seven years has elapsed without any sign of them being alive. I think the same is true in the US. A large number of mussing English victims of the tsunami were in fact declared dead after a period of a year. Can I ask on what grounds you feel entitled to believe that the missing of Srebrenica are still alive? --Opbeith 22:04, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Osli73, you are citing NIOD Report which was highly innacurate and biased. Read here... Peace. Bosniak 22:56, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Your using the "Srebenica Genocide Blog" to claim this? The most far thing from a reliable source as possible. // Laughing Man 23:19, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith, very simple:

1. I suggest using the term "estimated 8000" simply because this is in line with the figures cited by the majority of sources when referring to the massacre.
2. I have no doubt that all of the 8300 persons on that list are most likely dead. What I am contesting is that all of them were 'massacred'. Some may, as I have said, have been killed in fighting before or after the attack on Srebrenica. This is the same as when Bosnian Serb authorities try to include military casualties in the number of victims of Naser Oric's attacks in 1992-1993.

Finally, I only suggest that the article use the figures used by the majority of sources when describing the massacre. I have nothing against mentioning that the total number of missing and killed in the Srebrenica region in the summer of 1995 is 8300. In fact, I have always been in favor of a speparate section discussing the numbers killed and where and the various attempts at identifying and counting them. Regards Osli73 23:29, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

"Osli73", you still don't seem prepared to explain how and why you agree with the figure you mention. You've said that you regard all members of the Tuzla column as poorly-armed members of the 28th Division. You suggest that members of the Tuzla column who died were "killed in fighting". You suggest that you don't believe that killing less well-armed opponents counts as massacre. That suggests that you don't in fact believe the 8000 figure, regardless of whether you're happy to suggest using it. So, how many of the dead and missing from the Tuzla column (estimated figures will do)will you allow to be included among those massacred at Srebrenica? --Opbeith 00:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak, I don't see how the accusations of a political blog (which I believe you are actually a contributor to, if I remember correctly) can have any weight in the manner. There are plenty of Serbian blogs (even newspapers) who produce all kinds of twisted explanations and 'proof' that the ICTY is biased and nothing but a Nato invention to punish Serbs. Let's keep those types of accusations out of this article (including the ones about Mackenzie being an alleged rapist, which are also much promoted on the srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com). Again, please come up with some reliable sources. Regards Osli73 23:35, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Osli73, why are you misrepresenting the point Bosniak made? He was talking about the NIOD Report being inaccurate. And Laughing Man, please keep yourself to the facts and save the insults for your own entertainment elsewhere.

Before dismissing Srebrenica Genocide Blog so summarily, I suggest you both read the relevant page first.

Srebrenica Genocide Blog cites its sources quite clearly. One relevant source is an IWPR article giving Jan Willem Honig's comments on the NIOD report, as follows:

"According to Jan Willem Honig, senior lecturer in war studies at London’s Kings College and co-author of the highly-praised “Srebrenica, Record of a War Crime”, the truth lies somewhere in between. Although he says the report “has an aura of independent academic research,” Honig is critical of its length, saying the sheer abundance of information makes it possible for anyone to pluck from it whatever they need to make their point. This, he says, is a liability because the report is not always consistent. “It's possible to draw different conclusions from the different parts in the book. Therefore one can imagine it is useful to both defence and prosecution,” he said. Honig said he found numerous errors in the report as well. For example, he said an explanatory map inserted as a graphic aid to explaining the Bosnian Serb battle plan does not correspond with the plan as described in the text. And neither the written description nor the map accurately describe the actual plan."

and the supplementary comment "Honig is not alone in criticising the report. Many readers have complained that the index is poorly organised and full of errors, particularly regarding peoples’ names. Even those who worked on the NIOD report have been critical of it. One of the nine NIOD-researchers, anthropologist Ger Duijzings recently told the Dutch newspaper NRC Handelsblad, “Information from sources that I found unreliable, I found back in Part 1 [of the report] – used by [fellow-researcher] Bob de Graaf, if he thought it fitted in his argumentation." (http://www.iwpr.net/?p=tri&s=f&o=166497&apc_state=henitri2004)

Call me old-fashioned if you will but when you say that something is inaccurate I think it's worth checking your own accuracy as well. --Opbeith 00:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith, I’ll try to answer your three questions (as I understand them) separately:

1. I don’t see any need to specify exactly how the 7-8000 victims were killed. I simply accept that the vast majority of sources say that (a) it’s difficult to know exactly how many were killed and (b) then go on to give figures in the range of 7-8000. The article should reflect the common well-informed view of the massacre, eg that presented in the ICTY judgement against Krstic or the NIOD report, not draw its own conclusions. I would welcome a section on the various estimates of persons killed and missing and the attempts to identify them. It would certainly be in order to mention that the Federal Commission for Missing Persons has named 8300 persons missing or confirmed dead in the Srebrenica region during the summer of 1995.
2. The NIOD report was indeed criticised by one or two persons not involved in it. However, as far as I understand, these criticisms were about details, not the overriding findings of the report. Just as I don’t see any need to qualify the NIOD report as being “alleged inaccurate”, I don’t see any need to include rubbish like “the ICTY has been described as inaccurate and anti-Serb by many commentators” whenever the ICTY findings are presented. In the same way I don’t see any need to describe Mackenzie as an “alleged rapist” or the Bosniak government as “alleged Islamic fundamentalists”, etc.
3. The information on Mackenzie I removed was completely unsourced and part of the same type of negative labelling as the rape accusations. Why not just say that Mackenzie is one persons with differing views and then present what he says.

I hope I have answered your questions. Regards Osli73 10:14, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

(1) OK, Osli73, now at last you've finally explained that you are making a distinction between the deaths of members of the Tuzla column before they were taken prisoner and their deaths as prisoners of war. That I can understand. It's just a shame that it takes so much effort to get that explanation from you. But anyway, that makes your position on the numbers understandable.

However I still don't understand why you insist on classing all members of the column as armed combattants prior to the time when they were taken prisoner. Given the evidence in UN and ICTY reports that the majority were unarmed civilians this seems an untenable argument. Since the evidence suggests that the soldiers were spearheading the column while the majority of casualties were suffered in what appeared to be planned and coordinated ambushes and attacks on the rear parts of the column by well-armed VRS forces I'm puzzled by your insistence that the deaths of civilians fleeing a well-founded fear of extermination should not be considered part of the plan of extermination within which those VRS forces were acting?

(2) "The NIOD report was indeed criticised by one or two persons not involved in it."? Five lines above the start of your answer - "One of the nine NIOD-researchers, anthropologist Ger Duijzings recently told the Dutch newspaper NRC Handelsblad, “Information from sources that I found unreliable, I found back in Part 1 [of the report] – used by [fellow-researcher] Bob de Graaf, if he thought it fitted in his argumentation." (http://www.iwpr.net/?p=tri&s=f&o=166497&apc_state=henitri2004)

"However, as far as I understand, these criticisms were about details, not the overriding findings of the report." Well, as I remarked already, was directed at the fact that the report's conclusions were not "overriding", because of a lack of coherence. I quoted the report of Jan Willem Honig pointing out that the sheer abundance of information makes it possible for anyone to pluck from it whatever they need to make their point - which is a problem because of the report's lack of consistency as well as its numerous errors. So I still think you misrepresent Bosniak's criticism of the report.

(3) MacKenzie's views about the Massacre are unsourced? Do I need to quote the full wording of the Genocide Convention? It's in the public domain. The Globe and Mail article is referred to. The established facts concerning the points at issue - the finding of genocide and the numbers of victims - are sourced throughout the article. MacKenzie has no direct knowledge himself of what happened but he is regularly referred to as a supporting voice by "alternative" commentators (as anyone would know who gave a moment's thought to what other people have asserted here). Are you denying that?

And are you really entitled to step in and delete something that was extensively discussed on the discussion page without you bothering to offer any point of view? There's a miscrepancy between the carefully measured way in which you express yourself verbally in your contributions and the way you act. --Opbeith 11:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith, I'll give a short answer to your above comments:

1. As I stated above, I support the 7-8000 figure or the estimated 8000 figure because that is what the vast majority of respectable sources say. There is no need for us to make our own analyses and draw our own conclusions in the text.
2. Yes, some people have been quoted as criticising aspects of the NIOD report. However, I'm saying that so has just about every other report, including the ICTY findings in its case against Krstic, but there is not need to denounce all of these. It's analogous to including a comment about Mackenzie being accused of rape, the intention is to tarnish a political oponent. Nationalist Serbs try to do it all the time here on Wikipedia, sayig that the ICTY is just a Nato invention and that the ICTY is biased, etc.
3. The comments you included on Mackenzie which I had removed were all your own analysis and conclusions, ie original research. Wikipedia isn't the place for this type of private analysis, no matter if you 'agreed' to it with some of the other editors.

Regards Osli73 12:41, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

As I see it, it's quite easy. We have several respected sources giving figures of around 8,000 or less (CNN, BBC, ICTY, etc.), even after disregarding the NIOD report. Against that, there is one link to a website listing 8373 names without giving any indication where these come from. If that list is generally seen as the best estimate for the number of victims, then it shouldn't be hard to find good references to that. Otherwise, we are bound to go with the majority of sources. This used to be the position of both Fairview and myself, and I haven't seen anything which makes me change my position. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 12:48, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Jitse, the figure comes from the Federal Commission for Missing Persons and I know it is hard to find an authoritative English-language source for the updated list of names because I've been trying. However what I'm trying to find out from Osli73 is how he reconciles his argument that anyone in the Tuzla column killed before they were taken prisoner should be treated as a combattant, not a victim, with his view that there were 8000 victims of the Srebrenica massacre, as he does at his Talk page.

He is so insistent that anything anyone else does is sourced and authenticated that it doesn't seem unreasonable to press him on the issue of how he justifies rejecting the findings of the UN and the ICTY on the subject of the civilian element in the column that set out from Susnjari. It seems to me that either he accepts the principles followed by the sources whose figures he accepts or he explains where the principle on which he bases his understanding of the eligibility of deaths for inclusion comes from.

Similarly there's a discrepancy between his determination to maintain Lewis MacKenzie's argument that the figure of 8000 victims is invalid while at the same time he deletes the information that contradicts MacKenzie's assertions.

Osli73 finds it very easy to challenge information that other people find authoritative but is reluctant to acknowledge the inconsistencies in his own views and arguments, let alone control his impulse to engage in arbitrary and uncooperative intervention. --Opbeith 14:47, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not really interested in the person behind the moniker Osli73. We're not running a chat box but an encyclopaedia and all discussions should be directed on how to improve the article. The question which we need to consider here is which number to mention in the first sentence of the article. If there is no authoritative source (of whatever language), it does not belong in Wikipedia; that's the verifiability policy. If there are many sources, most of which say "approximately 8000", then we should start by giving that number and later elaborate that there is not a full agreement between the different sources; that's the neutral-point-of-view policy. These policies are of the utmost importance for Wikipedia. They say that we are bound by the sources we can find and we cannot just write what we ourselves think is true. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 02:39, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith, I'm getting the feeling that you like to make things harder than they have to be. I've said it before and I'll say it again:

• I propose "an estimated 8000" since that is what the vast majority of sources say. There is no need for us to make any grand analysis or come up with any new conclusions. I simply suggest using the figure the ICTY and just about everyone else uses.
• I propose including the Federal Commissions reported figure (references to it and the numbers are certainly availble in English, I think Justwatch had a good discussion of it) in a separate section on missing and killed and the attempts to identify them.
• As for Mackenzie, again, the idea is to present his views, not to make som original analysis of them.

Regards Osli73 22:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Osli73, I'm still waiting to see you explain how you are able to accept the figure of 8000 while at the same time insisting that any member of the Tuzla column killed prior to capture was a combattant and so cannot be counted as a victim of the massacre. --Opbeith 00:07, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Friends of Osli73

Friends of Osli73. You've been eager in the past to censor comments that draw attention to Osli73's disruptive behaviour, apparently not considering his record of activity to be relevant to the changes he makes to the article. Your eagerness to take action against comments on and analysis of Osli73's status and interventions constrasts very vividly with your inaction now he has resumed his old pattern.

Osli73's most recent hit-and-run attack on the content of the article has now been reverted but it's illustrative of his way of proceeding and the merits of his contributions. What he did was to delete, without warning, the analysis of Lewis MacKenzie's views on genocide and the scope of the massacre at Srebrenica that I had included as being directly relevant to the frequent citation here of MacKenzie's views on Srebrenica. I had very deliberately avoided any reference to the alleged visits to Kod Sonje.

I believe that I summed up the content of MacKenzie's position with regard to Srebrenica fairly, referring to his own published words. MacKenzie offers an interpretation of the Genocide Convention which refutes the careful deliberations of the ICTY on the matter. He is an individual, not a legal expert, arguing that the views of legal authorities should be ignored, with regard to genocide and to the scope of the murders that constitute the Srebrenica massacre. I did not point out that MacKenzie had no official status or responsibility at the time of the massacre that would give his pronouncements on the subject of Srebrenica authority.

I had also noted that his views are frequently cited by commentators who are reluctant to accept the ICTY's findings. This reference I considered justifiable because the section covered the general category of people who either reject the legal finding of genocide or contest the number of murders, or both.

Although I have no hesitation describing these commentators as genocide deniers, revisionists and apologists - not to insult them but to use words with their correct meaning to describe those commentators' position - I have not challenged the bowdlerisation of the section's heading to "Alternative views" or "critical views" (the positions can be understood whatever the words used to describe them). Osli73 swings into action without any thought of consultation to impose his new version of the title, "Non-Serb commentators".

A passing reference in the subject line indicates that Osli73 regards himself as "removing speculation about nature of Mackenzie's ideas." There was no speculation involved here. I had gone through the points raised very carefully and a number of times on the Discussion page, without any input from Osli73.

The way in which Wikipedia allows Osli73 to use the article as his own personal playground while protecting his reputation highlights the inadequacies of the Wikipedia process. Duja, "I should get a skin"? Is that what you think it boils down to? There's a deafening silence here from all the fine-minded defenders of civilised Wikipedia behaviour. Why? --Opbeith 09:40, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith,

1. Please see my comments above why I removed your analyses and comments on Mackenzie. Basically, the text in question was all your own analysis and your own conclusions.
2. I don't see this article as my own personal playground. However, several of the editors apparently do. I've never asked anyone to leave or called them names.

Regards Osli73 10:38, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Osli73, have you ever been asked to discuss your changes before making them? --Opbeith 10:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Osli73, any answer? --Opbeith 23:41, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of the reference to Gendercide

Osli73, Another arbitrary deletion that shows how much attention you pay to other people's discussions. The sourced reference to "gendercide" has a direct bearing on the argument MacKenzie uses to argue that genocide did not occur. This was discussed. You don't take part in the discussion. You don't discuss your opinion regarding the point's relavnce. You simply delete. This is not good faith but fits the pattern. --Opbeith 11:54, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith, again, it is your conclusion that "gendercide" has a direct bearing on the arguments of Mackenzie. It was original research. Wikipedia should reflect the common view, not your own personal analysis, no matter how insightful or well made. Regards Osli73 14:28, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

The "gendercide" comment is cited, and it seems to be an uncontroversial observation. It should not be directly associated with MacKenzie, as he didn't use the term. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 17:45, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Pointless I guess to point out the fact but the comment and link allow for an intelligent understanding of how MacKenzie completely fails to consider the basic principles of the Genocide Convention. But of course to seek understanding would be original research. I have this worrisome suspicion that judged by the criteria being applied here now even MacKenzie's comments themselves would qualify as original research. I hope the great man would be flattered to be deleted by Osli73. --Opbeith 23:50, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Major / minor edits

El C, it's hardly a minor edit to delete the message reminding us "Osli73 willfully violated his parole. What is the consequence?89.146.148.169 11:18, 12 February 2007 (UTC)" --Opbeith 12:00, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

What parole? It looked like there were mass removal of comments while placing "Osli73 willfully violated his parole. What is the consequence?" instead, which looked suspect. Rollback action is deemed a minor edit by default. El_C 23:50, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for all your careful research, El C. We were all trembling with indignation every time that an injustice was committed against Osli73. Reassured to find that the Wikipedia experts are mustering support for him from far and wide. Makes me realise how much we've maligned him in ever accusing him of dissembling and arbitrary and wilful action. --Opbeith 23:57, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith, you addressed a message to El C, which it appeared that he hadn't noticed. I've never had any contact with User:El C in the past. I simply invited him to respond to your question; I didn't suggest that he respond in any particular way. This was me "mustering support for Osli73" from El C: User talk:El C#This thread might interest you. Is your sarcasm actually necessary? -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 00:26, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

No, of course it's not necessary, it just provides some slight solace. You'd grudge me even that? --Opbeith 00:39, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

It does tend to make it hard to have a civil conversation when your base assumption is that everything I do or say comes from a position of bad faith. I assure you, you're very much mistaken in that theory. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 00:48, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Anonymous user in Sarajevo censoring Osli73

The edit wasn't simply removal of that message. It was a reversion of an anonymous user in Sarajevo who has been systematically removing edits by Osli73 over the past few days:

• Special:Contributions/89.146.145.110 [17]
• Special:Contributions/89.146.136.242 [18]
• Special:Contributions/89.146.128.58 [19]
• Special:Contributions/89.146.148.169 [20]

Is Osli73 banned from this article? If not, then those edits are vandalism, and El C was simply reverting ongoing vandalism. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 12:38, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Errm? Excuse me? Surely this isn't the real Jim Douglas? That scrupulous Wikipedian and scourge of vandalism? Someone appears to have usurped his identity in order to delete the subject headline I'd given my message. Thanks so much for asking. Did your Mum and Osli73's Mum go to the same parenting classes? (Strange because the person seems to be agreeing with me that ElC was going in for a bit more than minor editing - this is rather a circus.) Oh well, presumably the archivers / deleters will be moving in shortly so there's no point wasting time on any serious discussion of the issue. --Opbeith 15:30, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith, I tend to agree with you that the edit should have specified the reason for the revert, and it shouldn't have been marked as 'minor', but that's somewhat incidental. The real issue here is that an anonymous user, hiding behind an IP, is systematically vandalizing this talk page. Not just Osli73's comments, but also your responses to him. Have you looked at the diffs, Opbeith? Here's another one, from a few minutes ago:

• Special:Contributions/89.146.133.82 [21]

I have no idea who is doing this, but it's not constructive. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 15:40, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

So it wasn't you who changed the subject heading of my message without discussion? --Opbeith 15:46, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

No problem; if that's what matters to you, I've reinstated your header. Now would you care to address the actual issue -- an anonymous user in Sarajevo systematically vandalizing this talk page -- rather than a side issue of whether someone clicked the "minor edit" box? -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 15:55, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

No skin off my custard, just that you seemed a little coy about owning up to the matter after all that finger-pointing about vandalism.

The actual issue such as it is vandalism, you're right, and there's a long history of vandalism here, often involving Osli73. Now here you are again, coming along and closing big issues down to a narrow perspective with your concern about this gent in Sarajevo.

As far as I'm concerned I'm not worried about the gentleman in Sarajevo causing problems for my posts, he seems simply to be responding to more arbitrary action on the part of Osli73, who's on parole and not supposed to be making changes without discussion.

Thanks to the glorious free-for-all of Wikipedia all that ever seems to happen to Osli73 is that champions of justice and freedom like yourself come galloping in on white chargers to redress every attempt to restrain him.

Go ahead and have your battle with Sarajevo but if you're just out to rescue Golden Boy I'm happy to be left out of it. A plague on you all. --Opbeith 16:18, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't know where this "Golden Boy" stuff is coming from, but do I really need to remind you to comment on content, not contributors? I wasn't aware that I had anything to "own up" to, Opbeith. Every edit is public, and it was obvious that I changed the subject header, from an irrelevant side issue (major/minor edit) to the core issue of talk page vandalism. As my change seems to have distressed you, I've reinstated your original header. You are, of course, free to take yourself out of it; I simply note that you chose to inject yourself into it in the first place by questioning the legitimacy of El C's edit, which was a straightforward vandalism revert. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 16:29, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Again, Opbeith, your comments are also being vandalized. For example, here. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 16:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to have caused you so much offence, Jim Douglas. Unfortunately I'm probably going to do have the same effect again by pointing out it wasn't quite, as you describe it, "a simple vandalism revert". El C chose to intervene and deal with part of the problem but to ignore the causal factor - like you, once again, and like most of the guardians of procedure. Apologies for my wry use of the expression "Golden Boy" but there does seem to be a certain untouchability about him and his actions. Are you so reluctant to concede me even that small balm to the soul?

El C acted against the person who was calling Osli73's actions into question but chose to do nothing about Osli73's own vandalism. Perhaps this counts as "original research" but I can't help detecting a pattern in which culpability for transgressions is regularly ascribed to anyone other than a certain individual who is not supposed to be making changes without discussion. For some reason all these proceduralists simply fight shy of the matter, or delete or archive any mention of it.

I did notice that although you worry about Mr Sarajevo you don't seem bothered about Psychonaut's wilful deletion of the following valid comment -

"Osli73 was put on parole because of behavior at this article. He violated parole by creating sockpuppet. Where are authorities here at wikipedia? When does Osli73 face consequences for violating parole? If there are consequences for deleting his edits then why are there no consequences for him and his behavior? What kind of circus is ikipedia?89.146.133.82 15:09, 12 February 2007 (UTC)"

Procedural angst here seems to be weighted very heavily in one particular direction. --Opbeith 17:05, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, Opbeith, I hadn't noticed that Psychonaut reverted an actual comment; all other edits from that anonymous user simply censored comments from Osli73 and responses to him, including your own. You'll have to ask Psychonaut what his rationale was for doing that; I don't know. You just referred to "Osli73's own vandalism"; I'm sorry, but I must have missed it...which of Osli73's edits was vandalism? Is he banned from this article? (That's not a rhetorical question...I'm sincerely asking). -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 17:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

If I removed any comments, it was unintentional. I took a look at the diff of the anonymous IP's edit and it seemed as though he or she was simply removing comments from a registered user and replacing them with the text "So why are these edits overturned and yet Osli73 who has willfully violated wiki rules continues to be allowed to edit?". I therefore reverted those changes. My apologies if I overlooked some legitimate comments which got caught up in the reversion. —Psychonaut 18:07, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, problem over as long as Mr Sarajevo feels justice has been served. --Opbeith 18:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Jim Douglas, you seem to have been more keen to look to the defence of Osli73 than you have been to defend other people's contributions from his wilful interference. I assume that you've never visited the archives to inform yourself about his similar activities in the past and those of his alter ego KarlXII and presumably you'd take Duja and Jitse's charitable line towards his dissembling when he was challenged over his identity and Osli73 and KarlXII were found to be the same person. You obviously have a completely different take from mine as regards the arbitrary and disruptive interventions that have been the subject of my heavy-handed sarcasm. I class them as vandalism in the absence of any meaningful attempt at discussion prior to the attempt but we'll have to differ on that principle.

Osli73's been active elsewhere and his Talk page will tell you that an arbitration of activities at the Kosovo article ruled that "Ilir pz, Hipi Zhdripi, Vezaso, Dardanv, Ferick, Laughing Man, Osli73, and Tonycdp are placed on standard revert parole for one year. Each is limited to one revert per article per week, excepting obvious vandalism. Further, each is required to discuss any content reversions on the article's talk page." But he doesn't discuss his reversions, however often he's asked, he goes ahead and does just what he wants.

As you can see the weight of opinion here is that despite all this history we should pay no heed to Osli73's erratic and disruptive conduct. He doesn't seem to be able to do wrong. So obviously you don't appreciate that ironic epithet I gave him. Just ignore me and I'll carry on muttering away to myself in this padded cell. --Opbeith 18:10, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that censoring his talk page comments pretty much makes it impossible for him to try to discuss his edits, no? -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 18:58, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Well I guess everyone's being extra nice to him here to help him out. --Opbeith 19:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

There are some very limited reasons when it is allowed to remove comments from other editors from the talk page (e.g., libel or egregious personal attacks). Absent a good reason founded in the Wikipedia policies, nobody should remove discussion about the subject of the article. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 02:56, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

89.xx committed simple vandalism which I reverted using rollback, which by default is marked as a minor edit. Novel, vigilante enforcement of Arbitration remedies is not permitted. Other parole-related questions may be directed to WP:AE. El_C 04:43, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

El_C, my comment was not directed at you. While it might have been better if you hadn't removed the comment that 89.xx left, that's of lesser importance. My intention was to say that the edits of 89.xx where s/he deleted Osli's comments are unacceptable. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 07:04, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Likewise, I misindented (now fixed). 89's multiple identical comments were removed automatically, as a function of the rollback feature. El_C 08:00, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

There is no way that I can not be angry with what is going on here. The final straw is when someone who use Che Guevara's words to imply that they tremble with indignation in the face of injustice respond to the appeal of an individual who disputes the legal fact of genocide to rescue the contributions of someone with a known record of dissembling and malicious interference from the frustrated reaction of people who have been on the receiving end of the reality that ultimately lies behind everything in this article. If I can't speak, I must remain silent and watch - but this is simply obscene. --Opbeith 08:08, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to insist that you refrain from personal attacks. I responded to no appeal. I reverted simple vandalism, as I did many tens of times throughout the course of that day. El_C 08:15, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

When we act, we act in a context. Have no worry, I said I would remain silent and I'm not going to speak again. --Opbeith 08:32, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Regardless if you remain silent in this given instance, your conduct will need to change from now on. El_C 09:29, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Selectivity / equivalency?

Duja, Jitse, Laughing Man, whoever - please break the silence and explain to me the principle by which someone may choose to leave in place the reporting of a non-expert's opinions that disputes established facts and principles (MacKenzie's views on the genocide and the number of victims at Srebrenica) and delete the efforts to provide evidence of the commentator's inconsistency without discussing the matter beforehand? Duja, what counts as "poison in the well" and what doesn't? I'm sorry, I seem to be too thick to understand the subtleties informing action on Wikipedia. --Opbeith 12:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

MacKenzie led the UN forces for some time prior to the massacre, and it is therefore to be expected that he has some grasp of the situation. Now, if MacKenzie were the only one with these opinions, I think they shouldn't be included in the article. However, there are a number of observers which did some substantial research and voiced similar opinions. I'm thinking principally of Ed Herman and "his group", but also Jürgen Elsässer and the ISSA (International Strategic Studies Association). Together, they are a big enough minority that their points probably need to be acknowledged in the article.

In my opinion, the section currently gives too much weight to MacKenzie's views. I'd prefer listing all "non-conformists" with some claim to expertise and briefly summarizing the points made by them, while removing all the quotes of MacKenzie. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 13:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

MacKenzie chose not to engage with the Appeals Court findings. If you think his opinion has any worth on that basis that's your privilege, but what he has to say about Srebrenica contributes nothing important. On this subject his views carry no more authority than those of the man in the street. Read them, for heaven's sake, and tell me what substantive information they provide beyond his personal opinions.

I'm perfectly happy for MacKenzie's views to be omitted except for the fact that they will inevitably be used again in the relatively near future to challenge the established position on genocide and the number of victims. But hey, as they say, we're in the business of going round in circles here. --Opbeith 17:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith, two comment on your entry above:

• given that Mackenzie has been allowed to communicate his views on the massacre in major media and, I believe, in the US congress, he is certainly someone who should be mentioned in the article (although not too much weight, just as Bosniak says below)
• I don't see why Mackenzie's lack of engagement with the Appeals Court findings should preclude him from commenting on the issue. It's not up to us to analyse the quality of his comments.

Regards Osli73 16:38, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

"Poisoning the well" relates to my removal of sentence alleging that MacKenzie is under rape investigation by Bosnian authorities (therefore implying that he's saying that because he's a rapist lying bastard), which was discussed ad nauseam and hopefully dismissed in previous archives. And that was my sole recent edit. Duja► 17:04, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

IOW, either we agree that someone's opinion is relevant enough to the article and include it as such, or exclude it. There should be no "middle way": "he says that, but have in mind that it's probably because he's...". Duja► 17:06, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Duja, it was your sole recent edit. And that's what I mean. One particular type of poison only warrants intervention. Nothing much else here is as serious, is it? No worries for example about criticism of MacKenzie's reliability on other counts being deleted? And are you suggesting that it's perfectly OK for you to suggest that the Bosnian legal authorities are - in your own words - "lying bastards"?

Sorry if that sounds a bit confrontational but for some reason there seems to be a distinct lack of concern here generally over the removal of comments that suggest that the views of a rather robust and confrontational character should be challenged. --Opbeith 17:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, that does sound more than a bit confrontational, and I'm tired of your accusations of bad faith and selective editing on my part, as well putting words in my mouth, not to mention persistant whining that your comments were edited when in fact no one has changed their substance (except the ones removed per WP:TALK/Keep on topic). But I'm walking away from this article anyway (see WP:COOL, point 8, having better and more pleasant things to do.) Duja► 20:17, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Dear all, I agree that it would be better to give more space to the other 'dissenters' at the expense of Mackenzie (hence my preference for calling the section "Non-Serb commentators" or something similar. It would then be reasonable to give some type of summary of their views/ideas, though. In the case of sensitive/contested issues such as this I think quoting one or two of these would be the best way to avoid discussion about how to present their views (ie to let them speak for themselves). Regards Osli73 14:24, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Nice finesse, Sly. You're good at this. --Opbeith 15:31, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith, I'm not quite sure what you are referring to. Could you please explain what you mean. Regards Osli73 16:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Delighted to, Osli73, once you've done likewise. --Opbeith 17:01, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

"Original research"

Osli73, it appears that either you don't read or you don't understand your own links.

"Original research is research that is not exclusively based on a summary, review or synthesis of earlier publications on the subject of research. The purpose of the original research is to produce new knowledge, rather than to present the existing knowledge in a new form (e.g., summarized or classified)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_research

Still I suppose you'll tell me my use of that quotation counts either as "original research" or "stating the obvious" and of course all the Wikipedia experts will agree with you. Moi cynical? --Opbeith 23:36, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Enough of MacKenzie, please

This article needs to move forward. Endless discussions about Gen Lewis MacKenzie's involvement in Serb-run rape camps and his own admission that he was paid by Serb lobby to hold speeches, is just a waste of time. MacKenzie is not a central person of Srebrenica Genocide. Let's focus more on Gen. Ratko Mladic and Radovan Karadzic and their involvement in the massacre. I am sick of endless (several months long) discussions about MacKenzie. We can just delete him from the article and end this waste of time. There are more important issue to be focused on. And Osli73, please assume good faith and stop disruptive behavior, especially sarcasm and cynicism towards user Opbeith. There is an old Chinese saying: WE have two ears and one mouth, which means we should listen more and talk less. You are doing absolutely opposite. So far, you have absolutely ignored everything Opbeith explained, wrote, and discussed with you. Ignorance is very annoying and leads to continues disruption to improve the article. I would rather we focus on Mladic and Karadzic, than on Mackenzie. In my next edit, I might even delete MacKenzie from the article after all. This is getting ridicolous, counter-productive, and disruptive. Bosniak 08:19, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak, Good point! I definately agree that MacKenzie or other like him are not central to the article and that we need to get on with editing the article in a more constructive manner. However, as Jitse pointed out [22], he and some other critics do make up a significant enough minority to deserve to be mentioned in the article. I suggested that the best way to do this is to simply say that there are a number of 'observers' with dissenting views regarding the massacre and to very briefly summarize these views. If we can agree on a text for summarizing these views, great, otherwise I think the easiest would be to simply include one or two (short) quotes from them. However, I see no reason to include the type of speculation and analysis which Opbeith made.

As for getting on with the article, I think it would be good to get some kind of framework/structure for moving on with the article, perhaps even settling on some form of a compromise. Otherwise the editing of this article will continue to be, in your words, "ridicolous, counter-productive, and disruptive". I would be willing to set up such a suggestion for such a framework/structure. However, given that a number of editors seem to have a knee jerk reaction to anything I do, I think it would be much better if you came up with a first draft. You are very welcome to drop a message on my Talk page if you want to discuss a cooperation on this. Sincere regards Osli73 09:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Osli. Sorry I couldn't respond earlier, I had some other problems in my life. Why not just get rid off whole revisionist section? They are not central players in the massacre. Lets just delete the whole category, and maybe we could open another article espousing their agenda? Or maybe, we could add new categories to their articles (e.g. Lewis Mackenzie article, etc) and espouse their opinions? I just don't see how can we improve this article if we waste another 6 months discussing revisionist views. If deletion of category is not plausible, then we could do mix of your and my suggestions. You proposed we "simply say that there are a number of 'observers' with dissenting views regarding the massacre". I propose we also mention that their views are viewed as revisionist by some. In fact, their views are clearly revisionist. But, does it really matter? Should we continue wasting our energy on "revisionist", "alternative", "controversial", "dissenting", "leftist" views? Let's find quick compromise and move on with improving other aspects of the article. Let's just work together objectively, and let's stop edit wars; it's counterproductive, and we are all tired of it. Bosniak 20:29, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

"killing of at least 8,300 Bosniak males"

i know this has been brought up before, but hopefully in the spirit of compromise and honesty, we can get a good solution.

"at least 8300" means a strict lower bound of 8300. "At least" means the casualty figure could be higher, but it is impossible for it to be lower. I don't think the evidence supports "at least."

The source says it is a "preliminary List of Missing and Killed in Srebrenica" not just people killed. Also, it s a preliminary list, is the final list available?

The cited list has two sources of error...... (1) casualties of Srebrenica who were not reported as missing (2) People reported as missing who didn't die (they just went missing), and (3) people who died, but didn't die at Srebrenica. How do we know that error from (2) and (3) is less than error from (1)??

I've read an estimate of 7000, an estimate of 8000 etc... they are in the same ballpark, but they do NOT agree with the "at least 8300" language. The President of the United States in a statement on the 10th Anniversary of the Massacre in Srebrenica said, "On July 11, we remember the tragic loss of lives in Srebrenica ten years ago. The mass murder of nearly eight thousand men and boys was Europe's worst massacre of civilians since World War II and a grim reminder that there are evil people who will kill the innocent without conscience or mercy."[23]

I therefore propose the following replacement language "...killing of approximately 8000 Bosniak males..." I think articles are more persuasive and heavy hitting when they are obsessively accurate. When I read articles with errors, I have a tendency to discount the entire thing. -- Mgunn 09:13, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Mgunn,

• since a lot of the bodies were reburied (sometimes several times) after the massacre it is unlikely that the exact number of persons killed will ever be known.
• any one or several of the sources I listed (see above) should be good enough sources.
• the attempts to identify the those killed and missing and their numbers definately deserves to be mentioned (as it currently is at the end of the intro) in the article.

Regards Osli73 09:55, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Dear all, should we then go ahead and edit the current figure to "an estimated 8,000"? Regards Osli73 16:30, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with using "estimated 8,000" missing/killed, as long as we mention (somewhere in the article) which source stated 8,300 missing/killed. I think listing more reliable source will create better understanding of the issue. Also, I propose we somehow incorporate hardship associated with DNA identification (which is painstankingly slow process). Bosniak 20:32, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

A Fresh Start

Bosniak, I would be more than happy to compromise on the Mackenzie/revisionist issue and other issues as well. However, I do feel that it needs to be a 'packade deal', otherwise the article will just get stuck on a new issue. Here is a list of principles and issues which I feel should be included in such a 'package deal':

1. "The article should conform to the commonly held view" - I believe that the findings of the ICTY in its case against Krstic and its subsequent comments best represent this. If it's not in the ICTY material, extreme care should be taken whenever other sources/information are used to ensure acceptance by the parties involved.
2. "Let the facts speak for themselves" - the article should as far as possible avoid labelling (eg "revisionist" or "fundamentalist") and commentary and analysis by the editors.
3. "Reduce the length of the article" - the goal should be to follow Wikiepdia's "strong recommendation" that "articles be limited to a maximum of precisely 32 KB in size"[24] (the article is currently 129 kb in size).
4. "A fresh start" - I believe that the article, and the editors, must be given a fresh start. For the article this means that we should start with a blank page, starting with a new structure and adding text to this. Otherwise we will get bogged down in endless discussion as we strive to achieve point no. 3 above. For the editors, this means an end to animosity, name calling, sarcasm, suspicion and other nasty things. Otherwise, it will be very difficult to move on with the article. I almost feel as if editors should sign some kind of compact, promising the above.

Bosniak, and others, take your time to think about the above. If there is something you would like to add, please do. As I said in point 4, I believe there is no possibility to get on with the article if it is not a comprehensive and complete, fresh start. Otherwise we will just get bogged down in the next issue. Regards Osli73 21:17, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Given the very prolongued and unproductive discussion we are currently having about such a peripheral issue as what to call MacKenzie et al I am a bit disappointed that more people have not chosen to comment on my proposal above. Regards Osli73 09:17, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, I will :)

First, I agree that the article is way too long.

Second, I agree that it might well be rewritten. I don't think that it should simply be blanked, it could be rewritten at a subpage of the talk page and then the rewrite could be moved to the main body, as I see is done in some other articles.

However, I don't see how the rewrite wouldn't suffer from the same problems as the article does. I also don't think that the findings of the ICTY in its case against Krstic are the commonly held view. Nikola 17:31, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Bosnian or Bosniak?

Someone recently changed some text from "Bosniak" to "Bosnian". What is/should be the principle in this article - Bosnian or Bosniak? Cheers Osli73 15:26, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

There is no general principle because the terms refer to two different sets of people (one being a superset of the other). "Bosniak" should be used when the article discusses Bosniaks, and "Bosnian" when it discusses Bosnians who are not necessarily Bosniaks. —Psychonaut 15:52, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. We should refer to the "Bosnian" government. However, are the ARBiH soldiers Bosnians or Bosniaks? Were the inhabitants of Srebrenica and those that were killed Bosnians or Bosniaks? One example, the intro calls those killed Bosnians while the pictures identify the bodies as Bosniaks. Regards Osli73 15:55, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

It's (usually) not our decision to make. We need to go with whatever the original sources refer to them as. Problems arise only when sources conflict as to how they refer to the people in question. —Psychonaut 16:23, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the wording of the souce/reference should be used. However, in the cases where the text is not a quite or otherwise directly taken from a named source, which are quite many, we should have some kind of consistency. The ICTY in its judgement against Krstic uses "Bosnian Muslim" (as well as "Bosnian Serb") and refers to the "Bosnian Government". So, either we should use "Bosnian Muslim" or, my preference, "Bosniak" when the sources don't say otherwise. Regards Osli73 18:11, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

You should not refer to the "Bosnian" government because the "Bosnian" government wasn't really Bosnian and supported only Bosnian Muslims - a.k.a. Bosniaks. Nikola 19:32, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

The government of Bosnia is by definition Bosnian. —Psychonaut 20:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

The government in question was not the government of Bosnia. Nikola 09:53, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Psychonaut is correct, during the civil war the Bosnian Muslim government in Sarajevo was the internationally recognized government of BH and should therefore be referred to as the "Bosnian government". However, I suggest that the victims of the massacre be referred to as Bosniaks since the ones who committed it are referred to as "Bosnian Serbs", both of which are subsets to "Bosnians" as Psychonaut correctly points out. It would/could be confusing to refer to Bosnian Serbs fighting against Bosnians. Regards Osli73 20:35, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

To Nikola Smolenski --- The Bosnian Government was internationally recognized government of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Period. If you Serbs did not recognize it, it's your problem. This was democratically elected Bosnian government, whether you accept it or not. Bosniak 04:11, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Completely irrelevant. The government did not have control of Bosnia nor support of Bosnian population. Nikola 09:53, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Nikola,

1. the government in Sarajevo was the internationally recognized government of BiH and hence was the "Bosnian government"
2. that the Bosnian government didn't control all of it's territory or have the support of a large minority of its population is not relevant. The internationally recognized governments of Afghanistan or Iraq don't control all of their territory but they are still the only internationally recognized governments.
3. wether or not the Bosnian government was democratically elected or was democratic or had the support of the entire population also isn't relevant to this discussion. Milosevic wasn't a democrat nor democratically elected, his government was still the internationally recognized government of YU/S&M.

My suggestion is that the article refer to the Bosnian government when speaking about the government, the military or other institutions of the government but refer to persons as either Bosnian Serbs or Bosniaks. Cheers Osli73 19:11, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Facts that that the government in Sarajevo didn't control all of it's territory and had the support of a large minority of its population are relevant, especially when we are writing an article about an event in the civil war waged against that government. 99% of the governments in the world do control their territories and have support of nearly entire population, and usage of the phrase "Bosnian government" implies that it was the case with this one, which it wasn't. If you disagree with the phrase "Bosnian Muslim government", which phrase would you use to refer to it, so that it is clear that the government was not fully legitimate? Nikola 23:05, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

unfair characterization of the NIOD report

In the same spirit as the slander and characterization of MacKenzie the NIOD report is also unfairly characterized as "controversial" in the article:

The government of the Netherlands refused to apologize for their failure to protect Srebrenica civilians and their collaboration with Serb forces. The Netherlands' NIOD Report has remained a matter of controversy and criticism.

Although there has been ciriticism of the report from two sources (if I recall correctly) this is hardly enough to consitute "controvesial". In that case we should call the ICTY's judgement against Krstic and other established facts regarding the massacre (including the finding of genocide) "controversial" as well, given that they have received criticism from some. Of course, we don't and shouldn't. Almost any reports on a sensitive subject such as this is going to be criticised and be "controversial" by some. If a report is not hugely contested, there is no reason to brand it as "controversial" or "biased". Cheers Osli73 18:17, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

The IWPR article is pretty damning and it seems to be well researched. On the other hand, it's the only reliable source as far as I know. Therefore, I think it should be mentioned, though it's better to link the tag "controversial" to the IWPR.

I'm also not happy with the sentence before ("The government of the Netherlands refused to apologize …"). In fact, the government said that they were partially responsible and for that reason, they resigned. It may be true that they did not apologize (source?), but it should also be mentioned that they conceded partial responsibility.

I rewrote the paragraph with this in mind and I also added some more background. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 13:30, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Srebrenica Massacre is not about compromise

Sadly, this article is not about compromise - it's about politics. We have already discussed use of "revisonist", "alternative", and other terms, at least 1000 times so far (see archives) and we still have not reached compromise. However, whenever I use "revisionist views" terminology, someone comes and engages in revert/edit war. It is clear that the article has become politicized and 'poisoned' with moral equivalency and other sad examples of bias. Srebrenica victims are dead, they are burried like animals, again dugg out and reburried, and again dugg out and placed in bags and sent to Tuzla's morgue for painstakingly complicated DNA identification in which every bone is matched with blood tests and other bones, etc. It will take another decade to DNA-identify and bury all victims properly. The point is - these victims cannot speak for themselves. I am sure they would choose term "revisionist views" rather than "alternative views". Survivors of the genocide are allergic to moral equivalism that goes on the internet and media. Remember: Moral Equivalism Does NOT Equal Objectivity. If we are going to improve the article, then we will call people proper names (that's the first step). Gen. Lewis MacKenzie had nothing to do with Srebrenica, he had his mission in Sarajevo (different city, different region, totally different place in war). He admitted being paid by Serb lobby to hold speeches. He repeatedly minimized Srebrenica massacre tragedy. He is not merely Srebrenica genocide denier - he is also Srebrenica massacre revisionist by profession. He has done a lot of harm to Srebrenica massacre survivors and many of them are deeply offended by his revisionist propaganda and Serb-lobby activism. He is by NO means an 'expert' or even credible individual and he does not deserve to be called a person with "alternative views" (yeah right). He is revisionist with revisionist views - plain and simple, period. If you don't want to acknowledge this simple point, then you are repeatedly continuing to politicize this article and push your damn views onto something that should be objective and non-biased. Thank you. Bosniak 04:06, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

The section has been restored to "alternative" - partly to respect what seems to be the consensus here, and partly because reading the above message convinced that "revisionist" is the wrong term. Bosniak, don't get me wrong - I think you mean well - but the passion with which you've stated your case above makes me feel that you may be too close to the situation to make an objective call. "Revisionist", to me, sounds as if the encyclopedia is making a judgement call on the value of the text that follows. I'd rather presume that the reader is intelligent enough to read the information presented and come to his or her own conclusions. --Ckatz^chat_spy 06:39, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Dear Bosniak and others, I have no wish to 'politicize' this article. My proposals are not about compromising with the truth or pushing some kind of moral equivalency, it is about presenting the generally accepted facts and findings about the massacre. I've suggested a couple of guidelines for this above, to which I belive this is an answer of sorts.

1. I only ask that the article reflect the [commonly accepted view]. As the ICTY judgement against Krstic and, to a certain extent, the NIOD report are generally seen as the most reputable and widely accepted sources, I think it is the information provided in these that we should use first and foremost.
2. The article should strive to present the sources without unfairly labelling or tarnishing them. This means you can't call people "alleged rapists", "muslim fundamentalists", "mujahedeen", "fascists" or "revisionists" since they are all attempts to label sources/persons for political reasons.
3. It is not for the editors of this article to analyse and draw their own conclusions. We should report the widely accepted facts (this is, of course, related to #2 above).
4. As the lenght of the article is about four to five times the ("strongly")recommended maximum lenght I believe we should strive to reduce it in lenght quite drastically. Right now it is suffering from various editors adding their 'pet project' issue.
5. As part of such a drastic reduction in lenght (point #4 above) the revisionist/alternative view/critics section might have to go. But given the present lenght of the article I don't see any reason to exclude/reduce in lenght only this section.

When I refer to 'compromise', this is an attempt to establish some ground rules to enable us to fruitfully progress with the article. This will, however you want to see it, have to entail a certain amount of 'compromise' from the various editors. Everybody can't have things 100% their way since this is a communal/common project, regardless of wether some of us would like it to be or not. Cheers Osli73 08:37, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak's reply:

Hi. I said I would take a day or two vacation, but let me respond earlier:

1 Ckatz - many people are not intelligent enough to connect the dots (unfortunately). That's why we have to draw facts for them and not try to make them think. Some people don't have ability to think, primarily due to their pro-Serbian bias, hate against the west or muslims, or a set of other factors. The point is: many people won't see the difference between alternative view and credible view, period.

• I don't agree. Again, it is not for the editors to pass their own judgement or make their own conclusions, regardless if you believe certain readers are "not intelligent enough". I am certain that if we first present the ICTY findings and then present that this is the most widely accepted view and then present the 'alternative' views and present them as the view of the 'minority' this will suffice. Osli73 08:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• I don't agree with you. You are playing your games to present this genocide as morally equivalent. Bosniak 21:22, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

2 We should not focus only on Krstic judgement, but also on Oric judgement, providing things get placed in proper perspective. For example, Oric did attack Serb villages, but they were found to be militarized, etc. NIOD report is not credible. It contains numerous errors and it was made to clear blood from Dutch hands. NIOD report was also based on some Serb sources, such as Serb extremist Milivoje Ivanisevic, who wrote propaganda material about Serb deaths which ICTY stated had "nothing to do with reality." NIOD Report was morally equivalent, as it certainly did not provide two sides of the story. For example, they analyzed attacks on Serb villages, but they failed to mention that Serbs started first by ethnically cleansing and destrying over 500 Bosniak villages in the eastern Bosnia (where Srebrenica is located). They failed to acknowledge later ICTY's findings that Serb villages were militarized (as stated in Naser Oric judgement), etc. We must not take portions of text from judgements that supports our conclusions, we need to read complete texts of judgements and connect the dots. Serbian army was responsible for the massacre/genocide, not Bosniaks, not Oric, not West.

• I agree. I think the ICTY is a good, widely accepted source. I see no reason why we could not use it's findings from other cases.Osli73 08:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
• The NIOD report have apparently been criticized by some persons. But I see noone (outside the Balkans of corse) who has said that the report is "biased". It has indeed been seen as credible enough to be referred to in the ICTY by both the defence and the prosecution, something which they are unlikely to have done if it was widely perceived as biased or inaccurate.Osli73 08:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Consult local Bosnian sources (written in Bosnian language) and you will see strong opposition to this shameful morally equivalent and non-objective document. Bosniak 21:22, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

3 I dont' think it is unfair to label revisionists as revisionists. Historical Revisionism is the fact we have to deal with. The term is not used for political purposes.

I don't agree. Again, see my comment to point 1 above. Saying someone is a 'revisionist' is intended to paint all those who are critical of the ICTY view with the same brush as Holocaust revisionists (ie Holocaust deniers). Pushing this point will result in the article getting bogged down.Osli73 08:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree with you. People should be called their proper names. Those who kill are killers. Those who sexually abuse are sexual offenders. Those who minimize Genocide and go against judgments/facts are revisionists. Bosniak 21:22, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

4 Length of the article can be reduced, but instead of deleting paragraphs, they should be paraphrased. A 10 sentence paragraph can be easily paraphrased into 2 to 3 sentences resulting in 70-80% reduction without loss of information they pertain to.

As long as we are able to reduce the length of the article. It believe that for it to succeed, it will have to mean both reducing existing sections and taking out certain sections alltogether.Osli73 08:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

5 We should report widely accepted facts, but they must be placed into proper perspective so source-abuse does not occur (as it did in the past, with Serbs and pro-Serbs inserting only certain portions of the judgement[s] that support their own conclusioins).

It is just this 'placing into proper perspective' which I don't like. As you say above, "the proper persepctive" will mean different things to differen people and can easily be manipulated. E.g. do you feel it is "placing things into proper perspective" to say that, by the way, Mackenzie is under investigation for rape? This comes back to your point no. 1 above - if we present the widely accepted version, which I believe to be the ICTY findings and the NIOD report, then why not just leave it at that.Osli73 08:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree with you. Placing things into proper perspective merely means reporting ICTY's findings properly and objectively (and not politically). Bosniak 21:22, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

6 I loan my support for deletion of revisionist/alternative view section.

As I stated before, I would accept this only in a drastically shortened article (where a lot of other things have been taken out as well).Osli73 08:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't accept it now at all, because you are playing games with me. First you want me to compromise with you and then once you get my support then you stop supporting my compromise. You are playing games with me. Bosniak 21:22, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

7 As I stated in the past, I am definitely pro-compromise. But if I am going to respect and take into consideration other editor's opinions/decisions, they should also respect and take into consideration my opinion/decisions. It's a two-way street, not one way. There is clearly no agreement with respect to revisionist/alternative view terms. The term "alternative view" is imposed by admin.

It's precisely to avoid having to compromise about opinions that I suggested agreeing on using the ICTY, NIOD and IWPR as sources and use what they say while also keeping the article within the 32 kb maximum limit "stongly suggested" by Wikipedia. The shorter and more source based the article is the less room there should be for 'opinions' and, hence, compromising about opinions.Osli73 08:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

32kb is too small. I do not loan my support for such extremely short article. This is getting ridicolous. Your aim seems to be to create definition style article. Bosniak 21:22, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

8 Editors should focus on Srebrenica massacre, and Srebrenica massacre alone. What some former general who served in Vukovar or Sarajevo said is irrelevant as long as he did not serve in Srebrenica. Irrelevant information from irrelevant sources should not be inserted into the article. Lewis Mackenzie is irrelevant source. He had nothing to do with Srebrenica; he didn't even serve there.

First of all, Mackenzies comments are about the Srebrenica massacre, which is why they have been included in the article. I don't see that we've limited sources to those who actually 'participated' in the massacre? Again, if we are talking about a much shorter article (<32 kb) maybe we shuld consider not elaborating on the views of Mackenzie and other 'critics'. However, at it's present lenght, it certainly belongs there. Osli73 08:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree with you. Lewis MacKenzie has no authority to speak on Srebrenica. He was paid by Serb lobby and he didn't even serve in Srebrenica during war. He had nothing to do with Srebrenica. He served in Sarajevo and he was kicked out from it. He has no authority. His personal opinion is his personal opinion, just like mine or yours. We have no authority, he has not authority - personal opinions don't matter. This is encyclopedia. You are contradicting yourself in your supposed attempts to report widely accepted sources (ICTY etc) and put a stop to personal blogs and opinions. Bosniak 21:22, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

9 Upcoming rulling on Bosnia vs Serbia should also not be inserted into article (just warning in advance). Bosnia will lose the case against Serbia as Bosnia-Genocide allegation won't be supported. Again - Bosnia-Genocide and Srebrenica-Genocide are two different things. So let's keep this in mind and prevent posssible missuse of terms in the upcoming genocide rulling that has nothing with Srebrenica.

I'm not sure what you are talking about here. The ICTY certainly found the massacre to be an Act of Genocide. If another intl. court found that genocide did not take place in Bosnia then that would be weird but not something that should affect the finding of the ICTY (again, we should take care to say that the ICTY found the massacre to be an act of Genocide). As for the Scorpions, if noone finds that they were in fact controlled by Belgrade at the time of the massacre, I see no reason for the article to say or allude to this.Osli73 08:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I was talking about separate issue. There is an upcoming rulling Bosnia vs Serbia as to whether or not Serbia committed Genocide in all of Bosnia. In this case Bosnia will lose, because court will rule that Genocide was not committed on a "state-level". This has nothing to do with Srebrenica genocide. We are talking abotu "Bosnian Genocide", which is separate issue, separate article, separate topic. Bosniak 21:22, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

All the best,

Bosniak 22:40, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Straw poll on "Alternative views" section

I propose we take a non-binding straw poll for the purposes of gauging opinion on the sole matter of how to title the section which begins, "A range of alternative views of the Srebrenica massacre exist, from those who believe that the massacre did not take place at all to those who believe that far fewer than 8,000 were killed or that most of those killed were the result of combat, not executions." This will help us to determine whether there is a consensus on what to title this section, or at least a consensus on what not to call it.

I list below the titles which various parties have thus far proposed. For each title, indicate whether you would support or oppose using this title for the section, provide a brief rationale, and sign your vote with ~~~~.

Please respect WP:CANVASS by not encouraging editors to vote a particular way and by not posting announcements of this vote to users who you know or suspect to be sympathetic to your point of view. I have already alerted all users who have made multiple edits to the article this year. —Psychonaut 14:11, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Title proposals

Please use the following subsections only to give your vote and its rationale. If you feel you must comment on someone else's vote, please do so in the #Discussion section.

Alternative views

• Support. This is the most neutral description, and was the term used in the text of the section before the edit warring began. —Psychonaut 01:29, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• Support. This is the most neutral description. I would even propose the section be called "Critics of the generally accepted view" or something like that.Osli73 08:57, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• Support. Least emotive and yet give title to the content. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 14:03, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• Strong oppose. Do you have "alternative views" on Holocaust, or even Armenian genocide as the titles of these articles? Including the opinion of the Turkish gvt. Go figure: Armenian_genocide#Denial and Denial_of_the_Armenian_Genocide (actually, the non-denial of the Armanian genocide is a crime in Turkey I think - but the denial is still "denial" on the English Wiki at least). --HanzoHattori 14:18, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Facts about Srebrenica are not as firmly established as facts about Holocaust or Armenian genocide. Nikola 15:12, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, are established much better. As it was pointed here already, people can't agree even how many millions(!) of people died in the Holocaust, or at Auschwitz-Birkenau (Auschwitz: anywhere between 1-4 million, and the museum now say less even then the Nazis claimed). Was it 6 million? Was it 20 million? The Holocaust is really a huge mystery. What just about everyone (denial ahoy) would agree would be like "a lot of people were murdered by the Germans, and a lot of them were gassed to death." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.234.60.154 (talk) 23:12, 26 February 2007 (UTC).

• Strong oppose. Althought I accepted imposed term (by user Ckatz) I would like to voice out my strong opposition to "Alternative View", because we can't find any alternative views when discussing holocaust denial, armenian genocide denial, etc. Historical revisionism is the fact we all have to deal with, whether we accept it or not. It's there. Bosniak 20:47, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak, as I explained on your talk page, I am not prepared to accept you misrepresenting me on Wikipedia. How can I "impose" something when I don't have the authority to do so - or the ability to enforce it? --Ckatz^chat_spy 21:23, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay, problem solved. I mixed you up. You are not administrator. Bosniak 21:26, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• Support. Especially given that the 'alternative' views are a *range* of views; from outright denial that anything happened at all to a dispute over the actual numbers (as the article states). To lump all of this under clearly non-neutral language is just wrong. Also, can we put things into perspective? The Holocaust was an ongoing programme of genocide against a population that had not even been in conflict with its killers, resulting in millions of deaths; the Srebrenica massacre (accepting the ICTY findings) was an ugly incident in a brutal civil war. To call any disputing *any* facts about Srebrenica as akin to Holocaust denial is just over-the-top. Cheers. Jonathanmills 21:57, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, so the Holocaust was "an ugly incident in a brutal World War" (and yes, the Polish, Soviet, etc populations were in direct conflict with Nazi Germany, and in this war 9 million Germans died and hundreds of thousands or more were raped, so you know the war was indeed "brutal"). You can "dispute any details" of Srebrenica (like whethever chemical weapons were used, because it's not established), I don't think it's what we mean by "controversional views". --HanzoHattori 02:43, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose Dissenting views on other genocides such as the Holocaust are titled as revisionist & genocide denial rather than alternative views. Note also, it is not a question of genocide b/c an international tribunal (ICTY) ruled it as such. iruka 07:25, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
  • It is not universally agreed that a genocide happened in Srebrenica, while it is universally agreed that Holocaust was a genocide. ICTY's ruling was wrong and remains generally unaccepted. Nikola 15:12, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose This lends the views a legitimacy which they do not have in the mainstream opinion. The undue weight provision of WP:NPOV prevents us from applying a neutral label verging to the sympathetic to a view which is rejected by the vast majority. It is true that "alternative views" is used in the first sentence, but there it is put immediately in a proper context by explaining what they are. Furthermore, as Jonathan says below, one would expect a section called "alternative views" to treat views which deviate from the mainstream view in both ways. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 11:44, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
  • If the views would have a legitimacy in the mainstream opinion then they would be mainstream views, wouldn't they? This is a non-argument. Nikola 15:12, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Support - I find this title the most neutral and accurate. Nikola 15:12, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose This title implies a legitimacy that such fringe opinions do not deserve. Live Forever 19:12, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• No vote - "Alternative views" can only be alternatives if they are accepted as valid. If they are valid then logically the ICTY's findings can no longer be considered authoritative. So international law is a meaningless concept and falsehood is as valid as truth here. --Opbeith 19:35, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
  • As I said already - in a number of court cases, which were politically far less loaded than ICTY ones, the accused was found guilty beyond reasonable doubt, and sometimes even executed - and yet it was later found that he was in fact innocent. The fact that such cases exist doesn't mean that law is a meaningless concept. Nikola 17:26, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

• Support - This is the most neutral version of what other sources are saying about the subject. --// Laughing Man 20:13, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Support - even though this isn't fully neutral, I support it as it doesn't take a negative stance on the views in contravention in WP:NPOV.--Hadžija 10:55, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Controversial views

• Weak oppose. This title is somewhat misleading, because if a minority position is controversial, then by definition so must the majority position be. —Psychonaut 01:29, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. This is judgemental and implies that all criticism is controversial. Osli73 08:59, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. I agree with Osli. Jonathanmills 23:49, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• Weak support. Sure are "controversional". --HanzoHattori 14:09, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• Support - sure they are controversial and could be used as an alternative to Genocide Denial and Genocide Revisionism terms. Bosniak 20:59, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose Dissenting views on other genocides such as the Holocaust are titled as revisionist & genocide denial. The same terminology should be used for the Bosnian genocide. Note also, it is not a question of genocide b/c an international tribunal (ICTY) ruled it as such. iruka 07:25, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Weak support. Psychonaut does have a point but I don't it's the whole story. "Controversial" does not just mean "causing controversy". For instance, if you say that a book is very controversial, you don't mean that it causes much controversy (i.e., a lot of arguing with many people agreeing and many people disagreeing), but that most people are violently disagreeing with it. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 11:44, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose - per Psychonaut and Osli Nikola 15:14, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose - per Osli as it putting the views in a context before the reader reviews them. // Laughing Man 20:13, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose - whether something is controversial or not depends on your point of view. If the article labels some particular views as controversial, it's clearly taking a stance, again in contravention of WP:NPOV.--Hadžija 10:52, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Critical views

• Support. Not as good as "Alternative views", because this description defines the views solely in relation to the majority view, as opposed to presenting them as independent views in their own right. However, I suspect that the description is mostly apt. —Psychonaut 01:29, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• Support. I slightly prefer this to 'Alternative' since most of these views are precisely this, criticism of the ICTY view, rather than entire alternative views. Osli73 09:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose - critical views can be applied to criticize certain failures of UN, Bosnian Government, Serbian Government, Dutch Troops, etc, but we cannot apply this merely moraly equivalent term to such serious issues are Srebrenica genocide revisionism and Srebrenica genocide denial. Bosniak 20:56, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose Dissenting views on other genocides such as the Holocaust are titled as revisionist & genocide denial. The same terminology should be used for the Bosnian genocide. Note also, it is not a question of genocide b/c an international tribunal (ICTY) ruled it as such. iruka 07:44, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. Apt to be misinterpreted because "critical" can mean "given to judging" (Oxford English Dictionary). I can support it if it's reformulated as "Criticism of the mainstream view" or something like that. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 11:44, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose - but I still support this more than anything else except "Alternative views". Nikola 15:17, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• No vote - If "critical" views are substantiated they are no longer critical but valid. That would mean that the ICTY's findings were no longer authoritative and the whole article would be overturned. --Opbeith 19:48, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Weak Support per Psychonaut // Laughing Man 20:13, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose - takes a stance, contravenes WP:NPOV. However, it's still better than the other suggestions, some of which are frankly ridiculous.--Hadžija 11:00, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Denial of the massacre, revisionism and scepticism

I'm adding this title because it is the one that was used for most of last year -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 11:44, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Support. Not perfect, like the other proposals, but I think this shows the way forward. Having multiple labels allows for a bit of flexibility. I think with a bit of tweaking (e.g., replacing "revisionism" with another word) this can be used to get a compromise. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 11:44, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Strong oppose. while "denial of the massacre" and "Scepticism" are uncontroversial, "revisionism" is not, since it is a term which taints critics as Holocaust deniers.

• Oppose (I can't find who forgot to sign preceding vote) Nikola 15:19, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose clear non-NPOV expressed about the contents of the section // Laughing Man 20:13, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• 'Strong Oppose - again, takes a clear position in the debate, and is obviously POV.--Hadžija 10:49, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

• Support Fairly NPOV decription and covers the range of opinions. iruka 01:11, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Genocide denial

• Strong oppose. While the views certainly include some which could be characterized as genocide denial, some of them quite obviously are not. One can still hold that a genocide or attempted genocide was perpetrated even if one believes that less than 8000 people were massacred. —Psychonaut

• Strong oppose. This attempts to label all critics as 'Genocide deniers' and thereby equating them with the infamous Holocaust deniers. This has nothing to do with the numbers killed, the ICTY findings of Genocide was not based on the numbers killed but on their selection. Likewise, people can agree with the ICTY that 7-8000 persons were killed but still don't see it as Genocide. Are they "Genocide deniers"?Osli73 09:09, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Geez. No one really knows how many died in Holocaust, or even who include among the victims. We are talking about plus/minus many millions, go figure. The numbers of Srebrenica are MUCH better estabilished. By their names, even - including many (most?) identified by their remains found (practically none of Holocaust victims were identified and buried in a non-mass grave, even when their bodies found by the allies - and most were cremated). --HanzoHattori 14:09, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

The problem is, the list of these excellently established numbers includes people who are dead and missing, and it is not known how many are dead and how many are missing, and there are cases of people from the list who are dead but were not killed during July 1995, and so on. Nikola 15:24, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Support - yes, I agree with HanzoHattori. When it comes to Holocaust, nowhere you will find list of victims with their names, their parents names, their state ID #, addresses, etc. List of Srebrenica massacre victims is 100% better established with top-notch identification. Bosniak 20:55, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

In Poland now, 62 years after the war ended, there's a project to establish how many people really died... ROUGHLY (including how many were killed by the Soviets). The Auschwitz museum now says 1.1 million people died at the camp - it used to say it was 4 million (these from all over the Europe, so semi-related). If you remember, the classic work of Holocaust denial is Did Six Million Really Die? The correct answer is: no one knows, but probably many more (right now it's not only the Jews counted). What happened in Srebrenica is established in a little detail compared to, say, what happened at Auschwitz (being the symbol of the Holocaust). --HanzoHattori 02:58, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Strong oppose.I don't think HanzoHattori or Bosniak has actually answered Osli's (or Psychonaut's) point/s here -- reread their posts again (sorry if that sounds patronising). Cheers Jonathanmills 23:53, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• Support This title would be consistent with the predominant description for dissenting views on other genocides such as the Holocaust. iruka 07:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. Does not describe the whole range of opinions. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 11:44, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Strong oppose per everyone above. Nikola 15:24, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Strong support It is genocide, and it is being denied. It's pretty damn simple. Live Forever 19:12, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose clear non-NPOV expressed about the contents of the section // Laughing Man 20:13, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Strong oppose - takes a position in the debate, clearly contravening WP:NPOV. --Hadžija 10:48, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Revisionist views

• Oppose. While literally speaking "revisionist" may be correct, the term has unfortunate negative connotations, so it should be avoided lest it seem we are passing a value judgment on the views. —Psychonaut 01:29, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose. Using this attempts to taint critics of the ICTY version with the same brush as 'Holocaust critics'. "Alternative views" and "Critics" both convey the same message but without the insinuations.Osli73 09:12, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• Strong support. The "bad" Holocaust revisionism ("there was no Holocaust" people) and Srebrenica revisionism ("there was no massacre") are similiar, as both are questioning the UN findings and the UN trials (Nurnberg and The Hague). The legitimate revisionism is quite the other thing - for example, I'm all for including the Soviet POWs among the Holocaust victims.--HanzoHattori 14:09, 19 February 2007 (UTC)Hanzo, just a note, the Nurnberg trials had nothing to do with the UN, which did not exist at the time.Osli73 14:20, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, you're absolutely wrong. The UN was formarly founded in 1942 (hence United Nations Fighting Forces as the official name of the Allies), with the first conference held in early 1945 (even before the war ended). The International Military Tribunal was composed exclusively of the UN (UNFF) members. Also, here's another example of legitimate Holocaust revisionism - because it's a neutral word (but the denial should be called denial, and btw it's neutral by itself as well). --HanzoHattori 03:21, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Support - As I said earlier, historical revisionism is the fact we all have to deal with. Cases of holocaust and genocide revisionism are well documented. Bosniak 20:50, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• Strong oppose - especially, as has been said before (but, no offence, the point does not seem to be being addressed), these 'views' are a *wide range* of differing beliefs, as described on the article's main page. Jonathanmills 23:59, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

So why put them all under one title to start with? Seriously, apply some logic. You can have safely both "denial" and [whatever]. --HanzoHattori 03:15, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Where have I not applied logic? I didn't write the article. But no matter. You're right, anyway, about potentially having

more than one heading. Actually, I was thinking the 'alternative views' section could potentially include both (for want of

a better way to describe this) pro- *and* anti-Serbian views on the massacre, ie views which part ways with the ICTY and

other 'official' sources in the direction of thinking the numbers killed are higher, Scorpions were involved, etc as well as

views which part ways with the ICTY in the direction of thinking the conventional story is not correct vis-a-vis being

unfair to the Bosnian Serbs. But in any case, I disagree with using the term 'revisionism' because, as I said above, it's

not NPOV language. As for why I *don't* equate Srebrenica with the Holocaust or the Armenian genocide, see below. Jonathanmills 04:53, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Jonathanmills, the Srebrenica massacre may differ in degree from the Holocaust & Armenian genocide, but it is genocide & has been found as such by an international tribunal. As such, the same terminology should be used. iruka 07:39, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• • Support This title would be consistent with the predominant description for dissenting views on other genocides such as the Holocaust. iruka 07:39, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Neutral. While I think a negative connotation is required in order to reflect mainstream opinion, this may have too much. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 11:44, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Strong oppose - as I pointed out multiple times before, events were disputed since they happened, and thus label "revisionism" can't be applied. Nikola 15:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Support per iruka Live Forever 19:12, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose per Psychonaut // Laughing Man 20:13, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Strong oppose - the facts haven't been established, and then disputed. There have been various views since the event in question occurred. i.e. there's nothing to revise--Hadžija 10:48, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Skepticism

• Support. Not as good as "Alternative views", because this description defines the views solely in relation to the majority view, as opposed to presenting them as independent views in their own right. However, I suspect that the description is mostly apt. —Psychonaut 01:29, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. As most of the people/views we are talking about are more than just sceptical, this is a bit misleading.Osli73 09:13, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose - scepticism can be used for UFO articles, but historical revisionism tied to mass scale massacres, genocide, and even holocaust, is well documented. Bosniak 20:53, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• Weak oppose - but if this is needed as a compromise, at least it is a lot less loaded than 'revisionism' or 'genocide denial'. Jonathanmills 00:01, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose Dissenting views on other genocides such as the Holocaust are titled as revisionist & genocide denial. The same terminology should be used for the Bosnian genocide. Note also, it is not a question of genocide b/c an international tribunal (ICTY) ruled it as such. iruka 07:46, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. Imprecise, in that it can mean "the method of suspended judgment, systematic doubt, or criticism" (see Skepticism). Support if reformulated as "Skepticism regarding the mainstream opinion" or something similar. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 11:44, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose - but it's my third favourite, after "Alternative views" and "Critical views". Nikola 15:27, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose - not all the views encompassed are merely sceptical, and it's just not a good section title linguistically. However, I would consider it my third favourite too.--Hadžija 10:46, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Opbeith

There cannot be any consensus between genocide denial and genocide acceptance. The fact of genocide - the actus reus - has been decided by the ICTY. Before the ICTY reached its findings in the Krstic, Blagojevic and Krajisnik cases it engaged in lengthy deliberation on the interpretation of the wording of the Genocide Convention which is the applicable instrument of international law.

It is impossible to believe that there is anyone who accepts that genocide took place, ie accepts the findings of the ICTY, while still arguing that the number of victims is less than 8000. The ICTY figure of 7500-8000 is that found in the original Krstic judgment back in 2001. That figure was restated by the Appeals Chamber in 2004 because the Appeals Chamber was not looking at new evidence concerning the number of victims, it was simply considering whether the Trial Chamber was correct in its findings with respect to the grounds of Krstic's appeal.

A neutral position is not tenable without rejecting the validity of the ICTY as a competent legal forum. Anyone who wishes to challenge the judgments of the ICTY needs to be able to bring a substantial weight of legal argument to bear - not amateur analysts but acknowledged legal authorities. --Opbeith 03:34, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Opbeith, a little while ago you challenged me on this -- fair enough, too. Here is a submission by Yugoslavian lawyers

(from the University of Belgrade) outlining some of the legal criticisms of the ICTY (it is a little wordy, but fairly easy

to read) http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/illegal-tribunal.htm (this is not my entire response to your challenge, but it is

a start.) Cheers Jonathanmills 00:07, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

"Alternative views" can only be alternatives if they are accepted as valid. If they are valid then logically the ICTY's findings can no longer be considered authoritative. So international law is a meaningless concept. --Opbeith 15:15, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith, please state your vote. Bosniak 21:00, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Is any form of criticism considered worth including in an article? Or does it have to be valid and the grounds substantiated? If these critical views can be substantiated then again the ICTY's findings can no longer be considered authoritative. So the principles of international law are deemed to be faulty. --Opbeith 15:37, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak, I don't think you've understood. If these two suggestions can even be considered then the ICTY's findings are meaningless. So any expression of opinion is pointless. --Opbeith 22:58, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd also have appreciated being consulted beforehand about having my comments arbitrarily moved away from the relevant location, where other comments and explanations appear to be allowed. --Opbeith 23:32, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Since you didn't vote I thought you mistakenly put your comments in the wrong place. My intention was for the voting to take place above and the discussion to take place here, but it seems as though people can't resist commenting on others' votes. It would make things much cleaner if people would refrain from doing this, and move their commentary to this discussion section. —Psychonaut 00:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The very founding of ICTY was a breach of international law. Therefore, substantiated critical views of ICTY don't hurt international law any further. Either way, it is well known that a number of criminal cases where the accused was found guilty beyond reasonable doubt, and even executed, were later found to be wrong, which doesn't dismiss the legal system in entirety. Nikola 15:34, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Psychonaut contradicting himself about WP:CANVASS

You are contradicting yourself. You posted announcement to other editors who are sympathetic to your point of view and they now support continuation of moral equivalence, example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jonathanmills . Do you also consider this "alternative view" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust#Holocaust_denial ? How about this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_the_Armenian_Genocide ? Of course, you also did invite me to vote (and I am not sympathetic to your views) but at the same time, this is all your little game to present yourself as objective. No matter how many times I assume good faith, you always seem to disapoint me. Maybe you should start assuming good faith? Let's see it in action. Bosniak 22:46, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

One side of the spectrum of views is clearly more heavily represented among the qualifiers. That's obviously going to reflect recent levels of activity here. That's not to say that there's bias involved in the choice. But it does call into question the real neutrality of the process.

There are also some discrepancies. Gardenfli who'd made several posts this year doesn't seem to have been invited. Ckatz was invited, after making only one very recent post sympathetic to a particular option and having admitted limited knowledge of the subject. HarisM who had also made one post this year but has a much longer history of involvement with the article and knowledge of Bosnia wasn't. --Opbeith 23:28, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak, please read WP:CANVASS—if you want to wikilawyer, you should do it with the actual guideline and not my one-sentence summary of it. My announcements were not targetted at editors sympathetic to my point of view; I used a simple objective criterion (namely, all those users who made multiple edits to Srebrenica massacre this year). The timeline was chosen simply because it was a round cutoff point, and to avoid excessive cross-posting. Opbeith, User:Gardenfli did not make any contributions this year. Neither did User:HarisM. Nothing is preventing you from contacting those editors, or anyone else, provided that you do so in accordance with WP:CANVASS. If you want to expand the announcement to users who have made edits to Talk:Srebrenica massacre as well, or to those who contributed before 1 January 2007, then by all means do so. Just make sure you don't engage in excessive crossposting, campaigning, or votestacking. —Psychonaut 00:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Jonathanmills contradiction

Jonathanmills, there seems to be a contradiction here. You say "the Srebrenica massacre (accepting the ICTY findings) was an ugly incident in a brutal civil war." The ICTY found that genocide was committed at Srebrenica. Was it genocide or was it an ugly incident? --Opbeith 23:07, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Sure, the ICTY *called* it genocide, but are you saying there's not a substantial difference between what happened (even according to their findings) at Srebrenica, and the Holocaust or the Armenian genocide? That was my point. Incidentally, I just received a message on my talk page from Bosniak making this point -- 'what about this, Jonathan?' with links to the Holocaust and Armenian genocide -- somewhat redundant, I would have thought, given that I specifically mentioned the Holocaust in my post. No offence, though, Bosniak -- and I have replied to your point on my talk page. Jonathanmills 23:48, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

But Jonathanmills, the whole point of Raphael Lemkin's campaigning and the reason why the Genocide Convention was adopted with the wording it has is because genocide is a process, not simply the end result. It wasn't the ICTY "calling" it genocide, the ICTY tested the facts against the wording of the Genocide Convention. Have you been to the Wikipedia article on genocide and have you read the history of the Genocide Convention? The ICTY didn't come up with the notion of genocide at Srebrenica just out of the blue or without long discussion over the wording of the Genocide Convention. --Opbeith 00:09, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

My only point (by the way, feel free just to call me Jonathan :-) is contained in my response to Bosniak's comment on my

talk page, namely "Do you consider killing several thousand military-age men in the midst of a brutal civil war as on a par

with the killing of millions of people outside of a civil-war context? I don't."

So it may be deemed genocide by the ICTY, but I'm saying I think it's over-the-top to compare the Srebrenica massacre to

the WWII or Armenian holocausts. And given that 'revisionism' has clear connotations to the (WWII) Holocaust, it isn't

neutral language.

PS, are you aware (or am I mistaken?) that a sizeable portion of Bosnian Muslims were militarily allied to the Bosnian Serb

side in the war? (See 'Fikret Abdic' entry on Wikipedia). This seems to me to undermine the idea that the Bosnian Serbs

wanted to destroy the Bosnian Muslims as a group. But that is probably going too far off the topic for right here.

Jonathanmills 05:07, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

PPS, apologies for my crappy text formatting! I'm new to Wikipedia. I can't seem to indent the text without it going

pear-shaped.

Jonathanmills 05:12, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Jonathanmills, the wording of the Genocide Convention is "... genocide means any of the following acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such ...". The ICTY's careful deliberations determined that the crime of genocide can (and almost inevitably is) carried out in relation to a group within a specific geographic area. In the Krstic case the group is the Bosnian Muslims (ie Bosniaks) of Srebrenica. In the Krajisnik case it is the Bosnian Muslims of Eastern Bosnia. As far as I am aware there is no significant body of legal opinion that has sought to change the wording of the Genocide Convention to remove the reference to "in part".

Fikret Abdic and the local Serb forces were opportunistic allies. The Bihac enclave was nevertheless, like the Podrinje, part of the area whose ethnic cleansing was the eventual object of the strategy enunciated by Karadzic and Mladic. Mladic, as cited in the Krajisnik judgment, discucessed at some length here, acknowleged that the Bosnian Serb proposal would be seen as genocide and the intent to commit genocide is implicit in his suggestions for dissemblng the fact. This has all been amply considered by the ICTY. My or your awareness of Fikret Abdic is beside the case.

I didn't say that the ICTY Revisionism has connotations beyond the Holocaust. The use of the word in reference to the manipulation of the history of the Holocaust does not change or limit the meaning of the word. If the fact of genocide has been established by a legal body whose authority has not been challenged by any body of substance. The massacre at Srebrenica was not "an ugly incident in a brutal civil war", it was a deliberate part of the strategic plan for the ethnic cleansing of a large area of Bosnian territory. Challenging that established fact is revisionism.

Revisionism is legitimate when it adduces new facts in order to allow a new understanding of a historic event or process. Until the substance of arguments that challenge those findings is established they stand. You display a firm reluctance to ackowledge that what happened at Srebrenica was genocide without offering any coherent deployment of facts that would challenge the ICTY's findings. --Opbeith 07:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for posting the link to the summary of arguments put forward by Kosta Cavoski et al. challenging the legitimacy of the ICTY.

Cavoski's submission was made to the ICTY in 2001. His peer group of international lawyers do not appear to be greatly supportive of his arguments but perhaps you could come up with some references to authorities in the field who have accepted his arguments as nullifying the validity of the ICTY's actions and decisions.

Although Cavoski is Professor at the Faculty of Law of Belgrade University his claim to be considered an objective authority should be considered in the light of his involvement as chairman in the activities of the "International Committee for the Truth about Radovan Karadzic["http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/world/europe/1948528.stm], a group that has acted to promote Karadzic's interests, if not actually acting on his behalf, during his period in hiding from charges including crimes of genocide. The Committee are for example the publishers of Karadzic's "Charity and Appeals", which they describe as "a collection of various "acts of charity, public appeals and letters" that Karadzic wrote during the 1992-1995 war in Bosnia and Herzegovina"[25], part of a series of books intended according to members of the committee, to show "the truth about Karadzic".

At the time of publication Karadzic's friend Gojko Djogo told Vreme that Karadzic had been in contact with the Truth Committee and the publishing company which handled his book. According to Djogo Karadzic "looked over the letters but for understandable reasons was able to add his remarks to only some of them. ... There are no clues in the book that would indicate relations with Karadzic, but it’s obvious that they exist. Why would we hide that?".

Cavoski has no authoritative status as a commentator of international repute on matters relating to the ICTY and genocide. So I'm unwilling to entertain the notion that his views offer any basis on which to challenge the ICTY's finding of genocide at Srebrenica and in Eastern Bosnia. --Opbeith 08:58, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith, I think that you are putting things upside down here. Perhaps Cavoski accepted to be the chairman of the Committee for the Truth about Radovan Karadzic because of his view that ICTY, which prosecutes Karadzic, is illegitimate? (While you claim that he pushes the view that ICTY is illegitimate because he is the chair.)

Anyway, here is a Statement of the International Progress Organization on the Hague War Crimes Tribunal's indictment of Serbian Leaders by Dr. Hans Koechler, president of IPO, and there are more of their statements about ICTY. Nikola 16:20, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

If I felt doubtful about the overall legitimacy of the ICTY I think I would be rather wary of undermining the credibility of my opposition to it by chairing a front organisation for a man with the character and record of Karadzic. Frankly if I wanted to question the motives of a group of lawyers I wouldn't take a job as bagman to a gangster.

There may be areas in which the proceedings of the ICTY can be called into question but there is no evidence of a substantial challenge to its legitimacy even at this date. The International Progress Organization does not appear to have succeeded in having its challenge to the ICTY's legitimacy debated at the U.N. Correct me if I'm wrong. Until there's convincing evidence of a miscarriage of justice the rule of law involves accepting the fact of judgments with which we may personally disagree but which the community as a whole, including informed opinion, sees no reason to challenge. --Opbeith 18:06, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

What is wrong with Karadzic's character and record other than things ICTY accuses him of? I don't see at all how is the fact that IPO didn't challenge ICTY's legitimacy in the UN relevant. This community you are talking about simply doesn't exist. Nikola 17:07, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com

The srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com is used both as a reference and listed as an external link in the article.

• Given that this is the personal blog of Bosniak [26][27], is this appropriate?
• Although the blog references often include other sources, given Bosniak's outspoken views on the subject, it doensn't come accross as an ideal source for such information.
• By including the blog as a source, Wikipedia is used to promote a blog of one of the editors. Is this appropriate?

Examples of where the blog has been used as a source:[28][29][30][31] It has also been included in the External links section. Regards Osli73 10:16, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

In order for this resource to be acceptable as a reference and external link, it is necessary (but not sufficient) that it meets Wikipedia's criteria as a reliable source. (User:Bosniak should not have added those links himself, but that doesn't mean they can't stay in provided that other editors deem them to be appropriate.) In order for a personal blog to be a valid reference, it must be a primary source and not a secondary source (that is, the blogger himself must have witnessed the events reported on the blog). Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Self-published sources as secondary sources specifically says that "Personal websites, blogs, and other self-published or vanity publications should not be used as secondary sources." (emphasis in original) —Psychonaut 11:34, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

If blogs per se are not deemed good sources (with the exception noted above) the one could also question the use of the Bosnia Vault blog as a source in the article (it might also be of interest to note that the Srebrenica-genocide.blogspot links to the Bosnia Vault and vice versa). The Bosnia Vault blog is used as a refernce here[32] and is also listed in the External links section. Cheers Osli73 12:42, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Are External Links meant to be treated as "sources"? I understood that they were helpful links to further reading and not regarded as an essential part of the information contained in the article. I didn't find any definitive ruling at the Wikipedia Sources reference so perhaps a helpful administrator can clarify. In any case as Osli73 has ignored more than one reference to Jan Willem Honig's and other "non-Balkan" criticisms of the NIOD report I'd argue that it's quite useful to retain the link to the Srebrenica Genocide Blog post containing referenced criticisms of the kind that appear difficult to locate. --Opbeith 20:52, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Someone comes from nowhere, never having been seen here before as far as I know, and chops away without the courtesy of contributing to the discussion here first. Why? --Opbeith 22:21, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

BONSIA VAULT As the editor of the Bosnia Vault, I feel I have the right to make some comments; since for some reason my blog is the topic of conversation amongst the editors.

1. I have never once mentioned or posted anyting realted to my blog on Wikipedia; either in the discussions nor the actual article or the article links. In fact, until the recent comments, I had no idea my blog was even being used as source on this article.
2. My blog is my personal blog for the use of anyone who is interested in the Balkans, human rights, and related topics; with perhaps a rather lofty goal; of still keeping issues of Bosnia; both the war and the post war reconciliation; including art, music, culture and relations with foreign countries; in the forfront; as well as to discuss larger human rights issues; such as genocide; humanitarian intervention, the role of the media in foreign conflicts; preventing other massive human rights traumas. (I'm not saying that I'm successful by any means; just that is the goal of my blog).
3. While I'm flattered that someone on Wikipedia used my blog as a source on this article; I have never said or even implied that my blog was the best source to use on Wikipedia. In general, I'd much prefer that we link to the actual UN report (for example) rather than my own editorialization and mention of said UN report on my own blog. I have tons of links to UN reports; case studies, US State Department studies related to the Balkans. I can easily access them anytime we need a source. Although; I must say, that I think my blog is considerably less partisan, biased, one-sided; and much more factual and accurate than sites like "Emperor's Clothes" or "Anti-War.com" which as far as I know, while having not being linked as actual sources in the Srebrenica article; have been mentioned by some editors on these discussion pages as somehow being "good sources" of information. But, neverthless, I'd prefer that we link to the actual UN and ICTY orignal sources than to my blog.
4. Finally, who I choose to link to on my own personal blog is my own personal business. I have no idea why anyone here finds who I link to be a topic of conversation worthy of a discussion post on Wikipedia. Although I suppose I should be flattered that my small blog and who I choose to link to my blog is somehow considered a worthy topic of discussion! I have an entire list of blogs that I find to be interesting and informative related to the Balkans; and that certainly includes srebrenica-genocide.blog; amongst many others that I have also linked. And I certainly don't feel as if I should have to defend who I link to, or who links to me. That doesn't mean that I agree with every post; or with every editorial conclusion; or by the way every issue is presented on any of the blogs that I link. And, I certainly don't expect everyone who links to me to agree with everything I post on my own blog.

I know I have been rambling somewhat; although hopefully I still come across as somewhat coherent. I didn't mean to write so much about my blog on the wikipedia discussion page. Now, I'd like to go back to focusing on the actual article at hand; and the only issue that should matter; Srebrenica; and how to write the best and most informative article. Gardenfli 19:53, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak's Reply to Osli --- Blog is not used as a reference, but certain content on the blog is used as a reference. For example, there are copies of relatively rare UN documents posted on the blog. If you can find source anywhere else (try using altavista.com) then you are welcome to change it to more appropriate website. I have already changed some locations in the past. If you oppose use of blogs (certain statesmens and former UN diplomats still maintain their blogs!) then you should also not use such personal/private genocide denial pro-Milosevic websites as sources (example: EMPEROR's CLOTHES, ANTI-WAR, and similar Srebrenica genocide denial sources). It seems that Osli is opting for his one-sided activism, and I am not going to stand for it. He never voiced his opinion against pro-Milosevic and Srebrenica genocide denial sources that are actively used throughout wikipedia. Bosniak 21:06, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Dear all,

1. I've stated that referring to a blog which in turn contains other material, in this case UN reports, is not a clear cut case. However, given the very heated debate and your position in that debate, using material republished by you on your website as a source is not clear. I've asked for a comment on this.
2. To avoid discussion about sources, we should avoid using blogs as references, as long as they are not examples of a certain type of view or the works of published or otherwise well-known public commentators on the issue. If, for example, MacKenzie had a blog where he published his views on the massacre, it would be legitimate to refer to it as an example of his views. I.e. it shoudl be a primary source. Pls. see Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Self-published sources as secondary sources.
3. Of course Gardenfli can enter whatever links she want on her blog and there is absolutely no need to discuss this here if the blog is not going to be used as a source or listed in the External links section.
4. Listing blogs of editors in the External links section is against the express recommendation of Wikipedia (see Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Self-published sources as secondary sources).

Cheers Osli73 09:54, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Osli73, I'm not clear what you mean when you say "I've asked for a comment on this". What authority are you calling in aid here? Was SlimVirgin intervening at your request?

You don't seem to have read your source too carefully. Despite your comment that "Listing blogs of editors in the External links section is against the express recommendation of Wikipedia", if you go back and read the article you'll see that it does not mention External Links (other than its own). The article discusses the use of primary, secondary and tertiary sources as references for the information in an article. Could you explain how you consider the reader should interpret the word "express" as used in your comment? --Opbeith 10:33, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith, you are correct, it does not say that you are not allowed to list blogs as External links. However, I raised the question wether or not it was appropriate that the Blog of one of the editors be listed in the External sources. I think not. Regards Osli73 10:48, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Osli73, why are you using the expression "External sources" now instead of External Links? You and I were talking about External Links. The Wikipedia article talks about the rules applying to sources. It would be helpful if you tried not to create confusion or blur the differences between the two. --Opbeith 11:08, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith, sorry, I meant "External links". Cheers Osli73 12:04, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith, the posted a request for a comment on the matter on the Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources[33]. Cheers Osli73 12:08, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

parole violation, Osli73 currently edit warring

09:23, 19 February 2007 Osli73 (Talk | contribs)

21:38, 18 February 2007 Osli73 (Talk | contribs)

Ilir pz, Hipi Zhdripi, Vezaso, Dardanv, Ferick, Laughing Man, Osli73, and Tonycdp are placed on standard revert parole for one year. Each is limited to one revert per article per week, excepting obvious vandalism. Further, each is required to discuss any content reversions on the article's talk page.

For the Arbitration Committee. Arbitration Committee Clerk, 03:50, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Where can we vote? What does this post mean? Please post an explanation. Thanks. Bosniak 22:50, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

You can't vote. That's for the Arbitration Committee. —Psychonaut 00:14, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak, my time remains limited. I am focusing what time I have on preserving the introduction of the Srebrenica article. When Osli started edit warring with the intro, I decided to devote some time to the issue and posted the following at the Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard. You can see it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Arbitration_enforcement#Edit_this_section_for_new_requests I have also posted it below.

You can enter comments on the discussion page, but I believe it best to say nothing more and let the facts speak for themselves. Fairview360 01:43, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

User:Osli73

Osli73 (talk • contribs) is under Arbitration Committee sanction. Effective Oct. 21, 2006, the user is under revert parole and probation for one year for edit warring at the Srebrenica Massacre article. The final decision in his case is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Kosovo#Involved_parties

After his being sanctioned, the user continued aggressive edit warring at the Srebrenica Massacre article under the sockpuppet KarlXII. After being exposed for using a sockpuppet, the user as Osli73 has continued to violate the terms of his parole which states that the user is "limited to one revert per article per week". All violations reported here are at the Srebrenica Massacre article.

The following diffs show examples of the offending behavior Osli73 made the same revert 6 times in an 8 day period: Feb. 19, Feb. 18, Feb. 12, Feb. 12, Feb.11, Feb. 11

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Srebrenica_massacre&diff=109268846&oldid=109214494

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Srebrenica_massacre&diff=109151310&oldid=109016423

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Srebrenica_massacre&diff=107677280&oldid=107676953

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Srebrenica_massacre&diff=107533765&oldid=107531574

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Srebrenica_massacre&diff=107317225&oldid=107292804

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Srebrenica_massacre&diff=107214563&oldid=107160737

Osli73 made two reverts in a 3 day period deleting the same sentence Feb. 11, Feb. 9

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Srebrenica_massacre&diff=prev&oldid=107423607

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Srebrenica_massacre&diff=prev&oldid=106923855

Here, Osli73 admits that KarlXII was his sockpuppet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:El_C&diff=prev&oldid=108050155

Here is one of many examples of the user edit warring with the sockpuppet KarlXII. KarlXII made the same reverts to the Srebrenica Massacre intro 5 times in 3 days: Dec. 16, Dec. 18, Dec. 15, Dec. 15, and Dec. 15.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Srebrenica_massacre&diff=prev&oldid=95058246

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Srebrenica_massacre&diff=prev&oldid=94679996

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Srebrenica_massacre&diff=prev&oldid=94579838

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Srebrenica_massacre&diff=prev&oldid=94579364

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Srebrenica_massacre&diff=prev&oldid=94559356

Summation From his statements, Osli73 has shown that he fully understands the restrictions placed upon him. From his actions, he has shown that he is not willing to abide by those restrictions.

Reported by: Fairview360 16:33, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Jitse, do not delete this in the arbitrary way you deleted my previous comments. Osli73's ongoing "unreliability" - misrepresentation of references (here, reference to composition of Tuzla column in the Republika Srpska report), misrepresentation of Wikipedia guidelines (Wikipedia Reliability of Sources) and misrepresentation of other people's points of view when seeking outside opinion and intervention (Wikipedia Neutral Point of View) - is relevant to what he is allowed to carry on doing here. You are not entitled to protect him from responsibility for his actions. Concealing relevant information is disinformation. --Opbeith 10:35, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Alternative View = Moral Equivalence View

Do you also consider this "alternative view" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust#Holocaust_denial ? How about this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_the_Armenian_Genocide ? Bosniak 22:50, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely. Is falsehood not an alternative to truth? —Psychonaut 00:16, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

How can falsehood be an alternative to truth in an encyclopaedia? --Opbeith 00:48, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

What is that question supposed to mean? Falsehood is always an alternative to truth, inside or outside an encyclopedia. An encyclopedia should summarize all notable opinions, whether or not they are true. —Psychonaut 01:14, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not. Falsehood is not the "alternative" but the opposite of truth. Alternative implies two equally valid possibilities, which truth and falsehood by definition are not. Your whole logic is faulty. Live Forever 22:51, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

You are confusing the matter by introducing an irrelevant linguistic argument. Of course falsehood is the opposite of truth. But that's not what we're talking about. We are talking about how to refer to differing accounts and analyses of the same historical event. When one is presented with a historical account which differs from the commonly accepted one, even if it is patently false, one has the choice to accept it or reject it. Wherever there is a choice, there must by definition be an alternative. (An alternative is "one of two or more things, courses, or propositions to be chosen", according to Merriam–Webster.) —Psychonaut 00:38, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

The issue that Live Forever raises is not an irrelevant linguistic argument, it's absolutely fundamental. It is impossible to conceive of any attempt at giving practical form to the concept of an encyclopaedia where there are no limitations whatsoever on the scope of the content. The selection of information for inclusion in an encyclopaedia is a process of exercising choice. That would be an arbitrary process in the absence of principles that direct the process of selection.

Truth is sometimes difficult to establish but the ability to identify falsehood is central to our life in the world. If the exercise of choice is irrelevant then all accounts or analyses are deserving of equal representation. The tasks of compiling and using the body of knowledge would be equally impossible. An encyclopaedia is inevitably the embodiment of principles of choice and the basic principle before all others is the identification and omission of what is false. The Merriam-Webster definition puts the matter in a nutshell. --Opbeith 10:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Psychonaut, there is a difference between summarising opinions and describing falsehood as an alternative to truth. Are you an administrator? --Opbeith 07:51, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Whether or not I am an administrator is irrelevant. My opinion on matters of content, as does yours, carries equal weight as that of any other editor, administrator or otherwise. —Psychonaut 00:40, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

For the record, Psychonaut is not an administrator. He was blocked in the past for vandalism. Here is a proof Bosniak 07:01, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

The above statement is a misrepresentation of the facts. This link indicates that the block listed under Psychonaut's records (two minutes in total) was a mistake originating from a 'bot report. --Ckatz^chat_spy 07:16, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak is well aware that his statement is a lie, as you are by no means the first person to tell him that the blocks were accidental. Despite this he continues to post this claim on various talk pages… <sigh> —Psychonaut 12:41, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Some comments here:

1. Holocaust denial is an established term. Holocaust denial is also an established and widely accepted example of historical revisionism.
2. The views of MacKenzie et al. are not widely accepted as an example of historical revisionism. I'm sure there are people who claim this to be the case. But it is not a widely accepted example of it.
3. Hence, to use the term "revisionist" or "genocide deniers" in this case would be an example of Original research[34].

Regards Osli73 10:03, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Osli73, Srebrenica Genocide Denial is widely accepted term. Google yields 63,000 results for Srebrenica Genocide Denial example. Bosniak 06:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Just because the genocide in Bosnia doesn't have a specific widely-recognized term such as "holocaust denial" to describe the practice doesn't mean that it doesn't exist or that labeling it as "genocide denial" would be original research. To the contrary, the fact that genocide occurred in Srebrenica has been established and widely accepted to such an extent that denying this is recognized as "genocide denial" - lack of popular catch phrase notwithstanding. A Google search for Bosnia, genocide, and denial comes up with little over 300,000 hits and only a dozen thousand less than a comparable search for Armenia; with all due respect to the standard criticisms of 'Google tests', I still believe this aptly illustrates that the concept of genocide denial in the context of Bosnia (i.e. Srebrenica) is a widely recognized idea - particularly when compared to the results for the Armenian example. This article actually discusses a German proposal that would outlaw denial of the Srebrenica genocide throughout the EU. In light of such initiatives, dismissing "genocide denial" in the context of Srebrenica as "original research" is ridiculous. Live Forever 22:51, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

There's something so philosophically fundamental about this issue of whether falsehood and truth can be equally admissible within the context of an encyclopaedia that I'm surprised none of the administrators has volunteered a comment.

The issue needs to be resolved on a permanent basis, it cannot be the subject of ongoing dispute or it makes everything that goes on here potentially meaningless. For that reason I believe that some sort of adjudication is necessary. I don't regard this as a dispute with Psychonaut over the specific instance, I simply think that we need an authoritative ruling. How can we apply for that? --Opbeith 23:47, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Op and LiveF, it's really not that difficult:

1. Wikipedia articles should present the view of the majority of reliable and widely accepted sources. In this case the ICTY, which is also what the article does (sometime word by word, but that's another discussion).
2. If there is a minority view, Wikipedia articles should also present those. In this case the minority view is that of MacKenzie, Johnston & Co.. Wikipedia:NPOV is quite clear about things such as Bias, Fairness of tone and Letting the facts speak for themselves. Maybe a solution would be just call it "Minorty views"? RegardsOsli73 10:51, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Not by asking an administrator. Administrators are nothing special and their opinions on content don't have any more weight than those of other editors. The only authority on matters of content is the community; if you feel this issue has broader scope than this article, then you can start up a discussion at the Village pump or WP:RFC. —Psychonaut 00:25, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Conclussion: So we have Psychonaut and Osli73 who propose "alternative view", and we have Bosniak, Opbeith, and LiveForever who propose use of historically valid terms, such as revisionism and genocide denial as appropriate. Who has better arguments? It's clear that Osli73 and Psychonaut operated with weak arguments that bordered on fallacies. It's time to compromise and accept realities of revisionism and genocide denial. Bosniak 07:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

"The only authority on matters of content is the community"? As we have here? This is the neo-liberal model of knowledge. --Opbeith 10:16, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak and all others, it's quite clear that neither 'side' to this argument is going to get its way 100%. So, let's see if there are any other solutions. One way could be to create two sections, one for "Denial of the massacre" and the other for "Criticism of the ICTY findings" (or something to that effect). What about that? Otherwise, I fear we are going to be in for a very long discussion about what is really a very peripheral issue. Regards Osli73 09:15, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Peripheral? I would have thought that the significance of how we represent the way the world (including ourselves) understands what happened is obvious? --Opbeith 10:16, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak's Response:

Osli, this article is not about Philosophy. We cannot waste more time philosophising about "views". People need to be called their proper names. If you doubt ICTY judgements/findings etc, you are revisionist; if you don't accept reality that genocide happened in Srebrenica, then you are genocide denier. If you think that the UN / Bosnian Government / Serbian Government / etc could have done better to prevent mass scale massacres, then you have Alternative View. Don't you get the difference? This issue has become about "my way is better than you way"; you know that Opbeith's and Live Forever's arguments make more sense, but you still don't want to accept that your labeling of the case is wrong. When I am wrong, I accept that I am wrong. I've been wrong many times in my life, but I am not wrong about this issue. As Opbeith gave his opinion to me by stating correctly that "the genocide denier matter is not a matter of showing public acceptance of the expression 'The Srebrenica Genocide.'" Which is correct. Wikipedia is not about "public acceptance" of events. As Opbeith pointed to me:

If you spoke to someone born and brought up on a desert island without external communications and you told them 6 million people had been systematically murdered by government plan they'd almost certainly say "I don't believe you". That's not "Holocaust denial" - they are not denying something they must know is established fact. But if someone is in a position to be expected to know that genocide has been proven under the Convention - like MacKenzie - and they say that it is not genocide in the absence of an argument that would be considered reasonable by reputable legal authorities, that's a denial of the fact of genocide - genocide denial - whatever Google and anyone else may have to say.

Opbeith's argument is strong. How can you go against it? It's like trying to prove that 2 + 2 = 3. You can't. Osli, be a man and accept that your arguments regarding this issue were flawed. A real man is a man who has courage and pride to accept errors of his way. Remember: being stubborn is not a value; it's a weakness.

You have stated that you accept that genocide happened, and I give you credit for that. Had you not accepted that fact, I would not engage in any conversation with you. But it's time to accept that you were wrong regarding this "alternative view" issue. It's time to stand up and show that you have courage to acknowledge that you were wrong.

Remember: I am not pro-Bosniak or pro-Naser-Oric. I believe there are many fronts where we can criticize Bosniaks. For example, when they signed peace agreement and laid down most of their arms in Srebrenica, they practically signed capitulation. People in Gorazde were offered same deal by the UN, but they said "NO!". And guess what? Gorazde survived, Srebrenica fell. So clearly, Bosnian Government under the leadership of incompetent Alija Izetbegovic failed to defend people of Srebrenica by signing demilitarization agreement (Serbs never honored the terms of demilitarization and they never demilitarized). So you see, I am Bosniak and I love my people, but I also acknowledge that we have errors of our ways and I also criticize our government for failing to do more to defend its people. As I said, there are many fronts we can criticize Bosniaks on, but we cannot criticize them for defending themselves against Serbs in Srebrenica; we cannot criticize them for counter-attacking militarized Serb villages around Srebrenica etc. It's like blaming Sudanese blacks for genocide because they are black. Doesn't make any sense.

Proposition: We can use a mix of terms as a compromise. For example: If one doubts ICTY judgements/findings etc, he/she is revisionist; if one doesn't accept reality that genocide happened in Srebrenica, then he/she is genocide denier. If one thinks that the UN / Bosnian Government / Serbian Government / etc could have done better to prevent mass scale massacres, then he/she has Alternative Views. Bosniak 19:57, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Dear all, a couple of comments:

1. Bosniak, please don't bold all of your text, it makes it more difficult to read
2. Bosniak, since you propose to use the terms "revisionist" and "genocide denial" I don't see this as "mix of terms" nor as "a compromise"
3. since this discussion is not going anywhere I have asked for comments on the issue on the Wikipedia:NPOV Talk page.[35] Please note that I have posted the request because I think we need outside opinions.

Cheers Osli73 21:06, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak's Reply: Osli73, you are playing games, you are not here in good faith, and you are certainly not ready for any compromise. Therefore, my discussion regarding this matter is finished unresolved. Bosniak 05:49, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Osli73, it's not terribly helpful when you seek "outside opinions" by giving a misleading account of the substance of the issue. --Opbeith 10:37, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Proposal to remove inaccurate photo

This photo describes Srebrenica Genocide as a fight between oppossing armies. I would like to congratulate pro-Serb leftist apologists for being able to cleverly promote this photo on so many web sites on the internet. I am giving them credit for their clever propaganda. Having 10-15 armed "men" leading a colony of 1000 unarmed frightened civilians, mostly men and children (boys), does not constitute "armed force". Hundreds of children died in the massacre. Opbeith analyzed list of victims to perished in the genocide and quickly uncovered 84 children. The photo is inacurate and portrays genocide as "military conflict" between two armies. This is getting more and more ridicolous and the article definitely needs improvements. We can start improvements by first removing that photo. Regards. Bosniak 21:54, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

That image is a map, not a photograph. According to its Wikipedia page at Image:Srebrenica massacre map.jpg, the map is the work of the United States government. —Psychonaut 21:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

The map is certainly misleading because it is a representation of movements of military forces which fails to incorporate the contextually relevant information - widely available in United Nations, ICTY, Republika Srpska and other sources - that the majority of members of the column were fleeing civilians, including the children Bosniak refers to. However it may be that we still need it here as the only detailed map of the area that's publicly available (not to mention one of the very few graphics that the saboteurs have failed to remove). I'd opt for keeping it with a caption referring to the missing information. --Opbeith 23:11, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith, please don't mischaracterize people's edits. Removing copyright violations is not sabotage. —Psychonaut 23:50, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

There has been very sporadic mention of copyright issues. In most cases images were simply removed without discussion and explanation. --Opbeith 08:49, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak's Reply: Psychonaut, please don't mischaracterize my edits - as whether that's photo or a map is not an issue. It's clearly a map, pardon my second language, let's not weigh each and every word in this discussion. As an ESL speaker - and in a hurry - I tend to make a bad choice of words (sometimes). Anyways, who says that the United States government has always been right? Some underpaid employee might have created that map, and now we have to bow down to him and worship his digital creation? The US government could have prevented Srebrenica Genocide, but what have they done? Nothing. They sat and waited genocide to happen. They had the power to stop genocide, but they lacked willingless to do so. That was their biggest foreign policy failure in the Balkans. Over 8,000 people perished. The international judges rulled it was a genocide. Bosniak 01:34, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

The map is accurate. It would be nice if the article too would not refer to 28th Muslim Division as "refugees". Nikola 17:04, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

It would be nice if you Serbs stop spreading lies and propaganda which never had support among mainstream circles. Thanks. Bosniak 03:12, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Nikola Smolenski, please be specific about where the 28th Muslim Division is referred to in the article as "refugees". You obviously know that there is no such thing as the "28th Muslim Division" - using that description simply flags your "parti pris" disregard for the accuracy of established fact. The 28th Division was part of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, an internationally recognised multi-ethnic state. The 28th Division was part of the national defence forces of that state, besieged on national territory by a renegade force bent on the ethnic cleansing of the area and operating with the support of a foreign nation.

When you suggest that the BiH Army 28th Division is being misdescribed as "refugees" without providing any specific source I can only assume, given the context is a discussion of the map of the escape to Tuzla, that this is an oblique reference to the composition of the Tuzla column. It's only within the last couple of days that Osli73 sought to use the Republika Srpska report [36] to show that the column was composed of "more or less" armed fighters. He was shown to be misrepresenting his source. As I had pointed to Osli73 several times previously of the 12,000 to 15,000 members of the column the large majority (an estimated two thirds) were unarmed civilians, fleeing what they correctly believed to be the prospect of extermination. Since you don't seem to have followed the discussion here I'll remind you what the RS report and others actually says: "About one third of men were soldiers of 28th Division, but not all of them were armed". --Opbeith 11:42, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I am talking about, but I refuse to be drawn into this further. Nikola 23:06, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Opinion needed...

Should we place pre-war ethnic map into the article? Bosniak 03:35, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

This map is misleading, as it is done by municipalities, and creates impression that Muslims live on larger territory than they really do. Nikola 06:55, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

File:Ethnic composition before the war 1991.gif

Ethnic map of BIH, 1991.

You're right, Nikola Smolenski, it does create that impression - and the reason they don't live on such a large territory is because of what you continue to deny was genocide. A lot of them just don't live any more, full stop. If the sort of comment you have just come out with was made in the real world it would be met with the sort of straightforward response it deserves, but here that's not allowed. --Opbeith 10:13, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

They never lived on such a large territory. Nikola 21:55, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Any ethnic map of political subdivisions would have this fault since the overwhelming majority of Bosnia-Herzegovina's territory isn't actually inhabited or even privately owned. Such maps are meant to provide a political context to ethnogeographic presentations, and the fact of the matter is that municipalities are as far as we can go to create an accurate regional depiction without descending to politically trivial subunits. Live Forever 23:51, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

For example, a cartogram would probably not suffer from these problems. I don't understand what "providing political context to ethnogeographic presentations" means, I don't see why the fact that most of BH territory isn't inhabited is important, and local communities are not politically trivial. Nikola 21:55, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't be against adding one, but only if it was a village by village one based on the 1991 census results. Live Forever 23:52, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Edit: And by this I mean it would be specific to the Srebrenica municipality/region. Live Forever 00:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Psychonaut is Stalking me

Whatever I do on wikipedia, and whichever edit I make, he is there behind my back, checking and checking, and then commenting on my Talk Page even though I told him not to write in my Talk Page long time ago. This guy is stalking me. I have politely asked him to get off my back. This is ridicolous. His nickname "Psychonaut" tells me a lot about him, but whatever he does to himself is not my concern - all I want him is to get off my back and stop stalking me. I am here for Srebrenica massacre article, and for or because of him. Bosniak 04:20, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, believe it or not, there is no rule against 'Wikistalking', and even if he is following you around and reverting edits he deems POV or Anti-serb, there really is nothing you can do about it. You will just have to defend you edits, assuming they can be justified. If you believe he constitutes an actual troll, you can try contacting an administrator. The Myotis 04:49, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

If you have a concern, the appropriate action is to contact an administrator, not to make claims on an article talk page. However, you may want to think this matter through very carefully before proceeding any further. It is a very serious accusation, and your edit history may well justify the actions you're complaining about. --Ckatz^chat_spy 12:18, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

This seems to have been prompted by my tagging of what is apparently a copyright violation on Bosniak's part (see User talk:Bosniak#Image copyright problem with Ethnic composition before the war 1991.gif). I've left a note on his talk page referring him to WP:STALK. —Psychonaut 12:39, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

This heavy policing of copyright issues is reminiscent of Osli73's campaign about quotations from ICTY judgments when it was pretty obvious that that sort of material had been released into the public domain. It took me ages to get confirmation from the ICTY but when I did they told me (I can't remember the exact words) something along the lines that they were delighted for it to be used, subject to due attribution. Quibbling in the face of common sense is not necessarily unreasonable, but when it's almost always in one direction then its objectivity comes into question. The map is directly relevant to the Srebrenica Massacre article in that it provides the explanation for why ethnic cleansing and genocide took place. Rather than start by picking a fight over copyright violation when an illustration offers insight into the substance of the article I would have expected informed/neutral editors/administrators at least to discuss the possibilities of a "fair use" attribution. But that doesn't appear to be the way of the world at this article. --Opbeith 13:54, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

International Court of Justice Decision, Monday 26 February 2007

THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE TODAY CONFIRMED THAT GENOCIDE WAS COMMITTED AT SREBRENICA.

Denial of genocide at Srebrenica is genocide denial and anyone who argues that what happened at Srebrenica was not genocide is a genocide denier. --Opbeith 14:08, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

The court decided that Serbia is not guilty for organising what happened at Srebrenica. Bocky 19:38, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

• It also ruled that "Serbia had failed to prevent genocide and punish the perpetrators." Djma12 20:09, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

You could say the same for the UN and the United States. // Laughing Man 00:24, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Glad to see that you now accept that it was genocide, Laughing Man. --Opbeith 00:45, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

A noted Holocaust scholar appears to disagree with you about what constitutes "Genocide denial", Opbeith:

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/2824/

Consider Srebrenica, the massacre that took place at the end of the Bosnian civil war in 1995 in which it is estimated that 8,000 Bosnian Muslims were killed. ‘Some people argue that, given there are only so many tens of thousands of people in Srebrenica and the Serb soldiers went after an X number of a specific group, then it is genocide. But someone else might say it’s a massacre of the X population, not a genocide – because if you’re going to use that word then you have to go back to what the Nazis did to the Jews or what was done to the Armenians [by the Turks in the First World War]’, says Lipstadt. ‘That is an entirely legitimate debate to have about Srebrenica. Are we now saying that the person who says it’s not a genocide will be fined and punished?’

See also: http://lipstadt.blogspot.com/2007/02/thoughts-from-london-politicians-and.html

-- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 23:15, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Holocaust scholars and any other scholars for that regard, can agree or disagree with court judgments. But they are not the ones responsible for rulling on this matter - International Court of Justice and the International Criminal Tribunal are! Bosniak 04:00, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

ICJ is a joke. In a previous ruling when Yugoslavia sued NATO it ruled that it doesn't have the authority as FRY wasn't an UN member; but FRY apparently became an UN member overnight when that was neccessary for this ruling.

(And, anyway, I understood that it ruled that no genocide happened in Srebrenice as there was no plan to do it? I haven't read the verdict, I only watched a part of it on TV.) Nikola 23:23, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Not exactly, Nikola. The ICJ ruled that Srebrenica was legally a genocide, and that Serbia should have exercised influence to stop it, but that Serbia was not directly responsible as it exercised no command and control authority over the Bosnian Serb troops that carried out the massacre. You can find the basic story here, and several hundred more stories here. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 23:37, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

So Lipstadt expresses a fringe opinion in denying the by now well-established fact that there was a genocide in Srebrenica. In other words, she holds a view of genocide denial. Whether she should be punished for it, however, is another matter. Live Forever 23:47, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Why exactly should that entail a punishment?--Domitius 23:54, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Read the links Jim Douglas posted and then please explain why you're asking me this. Live Forever 23:58, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Live Forever, I presume that you've read both articles I linked to? For additional background, you might be interested in some of the books she's written:

http://www.amazon.com/Denying-Holocaust-Deborah-Lipstadt/dp/0140241574/

"A forceful analysis of attempts to deny the Nazi Holocaust. Lipstadt (Religion/Emory University; Beyond Belief, 1985--not reviewed) traces the history of Holocaust revisionism and contends that it can no longer be ignored, showing how Holocaust-deniers, once dismissed as a lunatic fringe, have been growing in numbers and influence during the past 20 years...."

http://www.amazon.com/History-Trial-Court-Holocaust-Denier/dp/0060593776

"In a much-publicized case, David Irving, the author of numerous books about WWII, sued Emory University historian Lipstadt and her British publisher, Penguin, for libel. Lipstadt had called Irving a Holocaust denier in a book about the Holocaust denial movement, and Britain's libel laws put the burden of proof on her to show that the charge was true...."

-- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 00:06, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, Jim Douglas, Lipstadt's talking here about the use of legislation to limit free speech and she's well known for her willingness to allow even the David Irvings of this world their right to Holocaust denial, as I'm sure you're aware. Most of her peers tend to disagree quite strongly with her, perhaps taking the view that decriminalising fraud isn't likely to encourage honest financial dealing.

It's interesting too that the interviewer doesn't ask her about how she reconciles her views with the existence of the Genocide Convention. That issue is left unresolved, perhaps not surprisingly since she's talking here to Spiked Online, the Web-based successor to LM/Living Marxism as mouthpiece for the libertarian views of the Revolutionary Communist Party Group associated with Frank Furedi, Mick Hume and Claire and Fiona Fox, well known for their denial of the existence of the Bosnian concentration camps, their denial of massacre at Srebrenica and their denial of genocide in Rwanda. --Opbeith 00:03, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Douglas, I have indeed read both articles you brought up. As Opbeith mentiones, the articles are concerned with the proposed legislation that would outlaw genocide denial. Regardless of whether or not they should be illegal, Lipstadt's views can accurately be described as genocide denial by definition. For all the good she's done in exposing holocaust denial, Lipstadt expresses a fringe opinion that goes against what has been established and accepted by international courts, human rights organizations, academic institutions, governments, and most genocide scholars across the globe. Taking into account the context and implications of her short comments on Srebrenica (as Opbeith has touched upon just above me), the extent of her knowledge and familiary with the facts of the Srebrenica genocide is quite questionable as well. Live Forever 00:15, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough; I wasn't clear if you'd read the articles or if you were just responding to the small excerpt I posted here. I was merely observing that a noted Holocaust scholar -- a professor who has taken on Holocaust deniers in court -- said that some people might argue that Srebrenica constituted a massacre, but not a "genocide", and that this "is an entirely legitimate debate to have about Srebrenica." We'll simply have to agree to disagree; I've been here before with Opbeith. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 00:26, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

So? I suspect, Jim Douglas, that you didn't savour the irony that Lipstadt took on Irving in court in order to maintain her right to insist that he was a Holocaust denier and it's thanks to the findings of the court that she's able to do so. --Opbeith 00:37, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Jim Douglas & Nikola Smolenski, there is no need to link Genocide with Holocaust, and then drag this discussion into gray area. I also support free speech, but I only value inteligent speech. Just because someone lacks intelligence and/or mental capacity to understand that Srebrenica Genocide happened cannot be my concern. That's why we have international courts to rule on this issue, and they ruled in favor of Srebrenica genocide several times. People who lack mental capacity to acknowledge genocide have a right to do so, because that's the best they can do. It's like a toddler crying, screaming and forcing mom to buy him a lolipop, but mom doesn't want to do it for the greater good (to save him from teeth decay, obesity or diabetes). Same with us - we attempt to reason with those who refuse to acknowledge international court rullings and standards. Mostly it's a lost battle, but at least we try, we don't quit easily. This world was not built on quitters.

Jim Douglas & Nikola Smolenski, I don't understand how can you not understand the fallacies of your arguments?

Bosniak 07:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I find it endlessly fascinating that different people can look at precisely the same set of facts, apparently through very different prisms, and arrive at completely different conclusions. (I know it's impossible to sense a person's tone online, so I should clarify that I mean that as a simple intellectual observation.) -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 00:46, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak's Response to Jim/Smolenski: Hi Jim, I also find it fascinating that you don't have courage to acknowledge Srebrenica genocide in the wake of all international rullings and judgments. Osli73 is bad, but at least he was good enought to publicly acknowledge genocide. I don't know what to do about you and Serbian ultra-radical nationalist Nikola Smolenski. Is there any hope for you two? Probably not. No matter what you two think (it's irrelevant), Srebrenica Genocide is undeniable in the wake of judgments issued by the International Criminal Tribunal and International Court of Justice. There is a Chinese saying that goes like this: "You have two ears and one mouth, therefore you should listen more and talk less". Exactly. If you just spent some time to listen what Opbeith was explaining to you - I am sure you would learn at least something. But unfortunately, most of the things Opbeith presented to you guys came through one ear and exited through other... No matter what your opinion is - Srebrenica Genocide is undeniable in the wake of all rullings... so think whatever you want guys. At this point, Srebrenica genocide is undeniable. Bosniak 06:03, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak, you really don't comprehend how uncivil that comment was, do you? Astonishing. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 06:38, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Jim, it's interesting that you consider my comment "uncivil", and yet you failed to acknowledge brutally uncivil comment made by your friend Nikola Smolenski who stated that "ICJ is a joke". My comment to you is always appropriate. You start discussing things and then when you get response, you don't deal with response, you just start talking about something unrelated such as accussation/allegation that my comment was uncivil. Well, let me tell you something - at this point, Srebrenica Genocide is undeniable. You can continue to deny it, you are entitled to your own personal opinion. But at this point, it's not only "beyond reasonable doubt", it's more like "10,000 kilometres beyond reasonable doubt" that Srebrenica massacre was a genocide. PS: What some holocaust scholar believes he can stick to his (you know where). He has not authority to rule on this issue. The International Justice has spoken. Bosniak 20:21, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Jim Douglas, whatever the arguments about the legal findings they are only important because they embody respect for the Genocide Convention, which Raphael Lemkin and the international community as a whole saw as an essential component of efforts to deter and halt future genocides. That's why respect for the findings of substance in the supreme international court of law is so important.

You and Deborah Lipstadt appear to arguing that the Genocide Convention should not be applied to facts on the ground. This isn't a drawing-room discussion over Earl Grey and cucumber sandwiches. We're discussing accountability for systematic mass slaughter and acknowledgment that acts were committed with the intent to destroy a part of a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.

If you continue to disagree with the findings of the ICJ on top of those of the ICTY you're not arguing about the specific instance of Srebrenica, you're challenging the basis of the Genocide Convention and it's in relation to the Convention where the sort of discussion that you're so determined to maintain should be conducted. Are you so completely unable to take on board how uncivil your determined insistence on disputing the reality of what happened at Srebrenica is in this forum? --Opbeith 08:12, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak's Responsev to everybody who reads this: Dear Friends, I am happy to report that there was another victory on the part of legal team representing Bosnia-Herzegovina at the International Court of Justice. Srebrenica Genocide has been reafirmed as Genocide one more time. I have posted my 31 page response (counted in Word format) at Srebrenica Genocide Blog - February 26, 2007 = article ICJ RULES SERBIA GUILTY OF NOT PREVENTING GENOCIDE.

PS: I have also posted 2 maps at the bottom of the page. Bosniak 03:39, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

It's not that difficult.

1. The ICTY has judged the Srebrenica massacre to be an act of genocide and the ICJ has confirmed this (however, they found that other massacres and events during the war in Bosnia was not genocide).
2. Some people disagree with this judgement and have put forward various arguments why it was not genocide.
3. A NPOV Wikipedia article should reasonably related that the "ICTY and ICJ have found that the Srebrenica massacre was genocide" (or something like that) and then go on to say that "...this has been contested by some...".

Cheers Osli73 09:41, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

And, what is your point man? The judgment was in favor of Srebrenica genocide. It was repeatedly contested by Serbian side and it was ruled numerous times to be genocide. Bosniak 23:14, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Osli73, I find rather fascinating your ability to bend the words and take parts of the judgments out of context.

Yes, he's quite extraordinary in his own way. Wish he wasn't, though, it takes a lot of time and effort to follow what he's up to. --Opbeith 15:57, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I just have to say...

...that I think this is a very informative and detailed page. I am not well-versed in the history of eastern Europe and following this link from the ITN page today I read the whole thing from top to bottom. I'd just like to give warm fuzzies to people by saying that, while a brief review of mine is not professional or academic nor any sort of prognosis, despite what edit warring may have gone on here (and I'm sure there was/is plenty of it) this article was useful for me to learn this snippet of history. I was only 5-6 at the time and can only remember 'Bosnia' being in the news a lot; learning finally of the events which transpired during this period in this country was a good half-hour spent. Thank you. Lady BlahDeBlah 13:04, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Why it is still massacre? it is GENOCIDE...officially..

Bilal

Bilal, Srebrenica massacre has been ruled Genocide several times. First with Krstic judgment, then again for the second time when Krstic apealed, and then again for the third time with Blagojevic, and if I am correct, again for the fourth time when Blagojevic apealed, and again for the fifth time with ICJ ruling... So we had 5 judgments in favor of Srebrenica Genocide. Bosniak 01:52, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Srebrenica Genocide

In the rulling of Internatinal court of justice, it is said that the Srebrenica massacre is regonized as a genocide. I think we should move the article to the Srebrenica Genocide.--Kahriman 15:39, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Kahriman, Bilal, I suggest we don't complicate the situation. It was genocide, that's now legally established beyond the reach of the deniers. But it's known much more widely as the Srebrenica Massacre, a crime of genocide. What we need to concentrate on is filling in the details that are still missing, and in particular following all the lines of responsibility. --Opbeith 16:32, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Opbeith here, the "Srebrenica massacre" is by far the more well known of the two. Regards Osli73 16:52, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

While not wanting to complicate things further, I agree with Kahriman and believe this should be moved to Srebrenica Genocide. There is Armenian Genocide, Rwandan Genocide, etc, and obviously this is Srebrenica Genocide, and not simply a massacre; it's a genocide. Let's not make a big fuss about this and let's just rename the article to Srebrenica Genocide and move on. Let's not waste time on endless discussions and disagreements. It's clearly a genocide. This is the fifth judgment confirming it (krstic + krstic appeak, blagojevic + blagojevic apeal, and Bosnia vs Serbia case)Bosniak 20:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

It is my understanding that ICJ didn't actually ruled anything, but just restated ICTY's ruling. And ICTY's ruling suffers from known problems. Nikola 21:57, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak, the reason the article is called "Srebrenica massacre" and not "Srebrenica genocide" is because the former is by far the most commonly used term. Googling the former return 203,000 hits[37] while the latter returns 53,000 hits excluding your own blog[38] and 55,000 including your blog.[39] I'm sorry, you may want it to be known as the Srebrenica genocide, but, despite the ICTY ruling, it is most commonly referred to as the Srebrenica massacre. Cheers Osli73 22:05, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

"" Osli73, you said that Srebrenica Genocide term returns 53,000 hits excluding my blog, a nd 55,000 including my blog. That is inaccurate and easily verifiable. The term Srebrenica Genocide returns 297 results with my blog click to verify. Otherwise, the term Srebrenica Genocide returns around 56,000 results click to ve3rify. Since when is Google indicative of anything? One can search for the term Bosniakophobia and that term will yield 330 results click to verify, the term Servophobia returns around 600 results click to verify. Of course, you all voted against the article Bosniakophobia on wikipedia. You need to understand that Srebrenica massacre is Srebrenica Genocide due to international rullings. Google is not indicative of anything and it is not the one to shape judicial rullings... Your arguments are weak Osli73, but at least you acknowledge Srebrenica Genocide, so I am not going to jump on you too much. Bosniak 01:48, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Are you using Google or International court of justice as source? If you'd use Google than article would be a nonsense. --Emx 09:15, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Osli73, I am mostly known as Kahriman, but I will use my real name when I am signing some papers or describing myself on some official place. --Kahriman 13:08, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Osli73, when you tell us your name, we will tell you ours - providing that you don't lie (heheheh) Bosniak 23:15, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Dear friends, the importing thing is the "legal situation" of event. not what is common in public.Because genocide is an very important act and should be consired alot while writing. And now there are alot of court resolution that it is a "Genocide". This is reality that is why we have to change it. the information will be more accurate for future searches in internet if the reference point is googling. i insist on changing the topic into Srebrenica Genocide.

Bilal

I agree with you Bilal. So, are we going to move it? --Kahriman 14:53, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

"Srebrenice genocide" just sounds awkward. "Bosnian genocide" would be better, but seriously, come on. --HanzoHattori 16:35, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

"Srebrenica genocide" sounds just fine to me. --Kahriman 17:12, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I am moving an article. Nobody didn't give a good reason for not doing it. --Kahriman 19:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Please don't (in the interests of avoiding move wars), a good reason has been given - Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names). If you badly want to change the title and make it stick, you should follow the guidelines at WP:RM.--Domitius 19:51, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

 Done Who determes witch of these two names is more in use and how can we be sure witch one, of these two names is more common? Can we know this by googling? Of course not. Many websites are taking wikipedia content and putting it on their webpages. So, I think we should choose the official name. --Kahriman 20:18, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Who decides? Wikipedians decide, there has to be a vote. The section you created below should look like what is prescribed here. To be honest, I'm not really bothered either way what the title is, but you need at least 60% to succeed. Somehow though I don't see that happening.--Domitius 20:26, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Looking through the ICJ document, I see many references describing the massacre as an act of genocide; that is not in question. However, as to the proposed move, I don't see any indication that the court officially refers to the event as the "Srebrenica Genocide". In fact, the words "Srebrenica" and "Genocide" are not paired anywhere in the document in that fashion, either as "Srebrenica Genocide" or as "Srebrenica genocide". There are three occurences of the term "Srebrenica massacres", and numerous uses of the phrase "genocide at Srebrenica" (small-g "genocide"). It is accurate to say the the ICJ declared the events at Srebrenica to be acts of genocide. Hoever, I think it is inaccurate to claim that "this case is officially called Srebrenica Genocide", contrary to what is stated in the move request. --Ckatz^chat_spy 20:40, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Sarajevo/Tuzla's "insane tactic"

An interesting accoun is given in a book published by in association with The Bosnian Institute in London last year. In “How Bosnia Armed”, Marko Attila Hoare writes as follows:

“The counterpart to the Sarajevo offensive was the abandonment of the besieged enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa in East Bosnia to Serb forces in July. Izetbegovic, Ganic and other SDA leaders had discussed handing over Srebrenica and Zepa to the VRS on several occasions, in exchange for Serb abandonment of the occupied Sarajevo suburbs of Vogosca and Ilijas that separated the capital from the rest of government-held territory. In March 1995 Naser Oric, commander of the 28th Division in Srebrenica, and fifteen of his officers were withdrawn from the enclave for ‘retraining’ and never returned; yet in June the defenders of Srebrenica were required to launch diversionary attacks on the VRS in support of the offensive around Sarajevo, a tactic General Divjak condemned as ‘insane’ since it provided justification for the Serb counter-offensive and occupation of the ‘safe area’. The order to launch diversionary attacks was for this reason resisted by the commander of the ARBiH’s 28th Division in the enclave. While insisting on diversionary attacks from Srebrenica, the Staff of the 2nd Corps moved its elite units away from Srebrenica and towards Sarajevo, a mere four days before the enclave fell. 2nd Corps commander Sead Delic resisted all calls from his officers for a military push to link up with soldiers and civilians fleeing from Srebrenica. On 11 July, the day VRS occupied the town, Rasim Delic devoted only five minutes of his twenty-five minute military report to this imminent military catastrophe. The SDA leadership also ignored the latter, preoccupied as it was with finding a replacement for ‘Vice-President’ Ganic who had been injured in a road accident. This was despite the fact that the VRS’s conquest of Srebrenica was followed by the cold-blooded massacre of at least 7 000 Muslim men and boys. The ARBiH General Staff made no military effort whatsoever to assist Srebrenica, for whose survival the regime chose to rely solely on the international community. Delic subsequently blamed Srebrenica’s fall on the incompetence of its defenders. Izetbegovic admitted that the town could have been held out for a further month had it received the support of the Army. Naser Oric accuses the Bosnian regime of having deliberately sacrificed the enclave; his own prior power struggle with the SDA for control of the town might help to explain the failure of coordination between him and the commanders of the General Staff and the 2nd Corps. The fall of Srebrenica was followed by the VRS’s conquest of Zepa on July 25, an event that received even less attention from the Bosnian leadership and from Western powers.”[40]

I'd like to recall the article mentions the angry soldiers of the 28th were even trying to kill the 2nd Corps leadership later. --HanzoHattori 13:08, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to move. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 01:24, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

Srebrenica massacre → Srebrenica Genocide – I have requested for moving this article to the Srebrenica Genocide on the WP:RM. We had desscusion about this on #Srebrenica Genocide. --Kahriman 20:09, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Add "# Support" or "# Oppose" on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

Notice

Please also note that this discussion is only about whether or not to rename the article. It is not a debate about whether or not the events at Srbrenica are acts of genocide. Voting in support of the move is not equivalent to saying "Srbrenica was genocide". Voting to oppose the page move is not equivalent to saying "Srbrenica was not genocide".

Also, please note that this is not a vote. The issue will be decided not strictly on the number of people choosing one side or another, but on the strength of the arguments presented. Participants should therefore explain the reasons for their opinion, and should view and consider the explanations offered by others.

Survey - in support of the move

1. Support According to the decision of International court of justice [41] this event is proclaimed as Srebrenica Genocide. I think that the decision of the International court of justice is more relevent than googling. The only reason for this amount for "Srebrenica massacre" is the name of the article on the wikipedia. Many websites are taking wikipedia's contant and putting it on their webpages. --Kahriman 20:45, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
2. Support I agree --BiH 21:03, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
3. Support Maybe this survey is pointless. Court decided that was genocide. End of story. We can't write articles and name it because someone's opinion about some topic. That is making mockery of Wikipedia. International court is international court. Rename to what it is. Genocide. End of story. --HarisM 21:24, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
4. Support Rename it!--Elvir.doc 21:55, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
   
5. Support It's clear that it was a genocide. --Emx 21:55, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
6. Support That it was a genocide.Lana Zeherović
   
7. Support According to the decision of International court of justice AdnanSa 09:59, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
8. Support ICJ Lysandros 11:21, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
9. Support accorting to ICJ --Sirmelle 13:05, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
10. Support. ICJ verdict uses Srebrenica Genocide name many times.
    For instance (Page 138: (3) The question of attribution of the Srebrenica genocide to the Respondent on the basis of the conduct of its organs, Page 158: In view of the foregoing, the Court concludes that the Respondent violated its obligation to prevent the Srebrenica genocide in such a manner as to engage its international responsibility., also article 442, page 158; Page 160: For the purposes of the present case, the Court only has to determine whether the FRY was under an obligation to co-operate with the ICTY, and if so, on what basis, from when the Srebrenica genocide was committed in July 1995. etc. PDF - ICJ Verdict in English and French). The Dragon of Bosnia 13:16, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
    

    Comment - The same verdict uses "Srebrenica massacre", "Srebrenica massacres" or even "massacres at Srebrenica" many times, actually more times than it uses "Srebrenica genocide". This also invalidates vote of Fairview 360. Nikola 11:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

11. Suport According to ICJ - Zumbulka 16:03, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
    
12. Suport - Live Forever 16:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
13. Suport, It is clear now. Emir Arven 19:21, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
14. Support --demicx 20:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
15. Support - This title is equally descriptive and far more accurate. Asim Led 22:20, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
16. Support - this move was my original suggestion. --PaxEquilibrium 20:48, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
17. Support - given that the ICJ uses the term "Srebrenica Genocide" (see voter #10 above), given that the word "massacre" can be in reference to a group of victims as few as five http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre, given that "Srebrenica Genocide" most accurately describes what actually happened, given that the term "Srebenica Massacre" started before the court cases that have clearly established that genocide occured at Srebrenica, even though "Srebrenica Massacre" is at this time more common, I support "Srebrenica Genocide" as the title of this article. Fairview360 21:14, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
18. Support - I think that since it has been legally accepted as genocide in judgements of ICTY, ICJ and in declarations of USA Congress etc., it should be moved to Srebrenica genocide. Calling it Srebrenica massacre would be denying the genocide (in Krstić case it is wisely said that this crime should be called by its proper name - genocide) --Harac 23:02, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
19. Support - I support the notion to rename Srebrenica Massacre into Srebrenica Genocide. Bosniak 23:52, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

    Comment Definition on Oxford Dictionary is telling us that Massacre is kiling large number of people, and for Genocide it is also deliberate and particular ethnic group (also a nation). If you think that common word is enough reason, not to rename it, than you have to draw the line between M(m)-word and G(g)-word . ICJ did. There is a huge difference. - Elvir.doc 13:30, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

20. Support The International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia ruled that the Srebrenica massacre was genocide.--Húsönd 15:14, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

    Comment I disagree with this argument, based on a straight reading of the Wikipedia naming policies ("use the most common name"). Just taking New York Times references as representative (all other reliable sources show a similar pattern), I found 50 hits for "srebrenica massacre" and 1 hit for "srebrenica genocide" -- and that one was in a letter to the editor, not written by a New York Times reporter. And 22 of those hits for Srebrenica massacre were published in the New York Times after the ICTY genocide ruling of 23 June 2004. We can speculate that the most common name in English might one day be Srebrenica Genocide, or the Srebrenica Holocaust, or something else altogether. But as of today, the name used overwhelmingly by reliable sources is Srebrenica massacre -- and that's the name that readers are most likely to look for on Wikipedia. Most of these "Support" comments appear to be based on the argument that "Srebrenica was a genocide" -- a point that's irrelevant to the article naming discussion. Based on that argument, it would be equally valid to rename Holocaust to Jewish Genocide. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 17:30, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment. The problem is that Serb nationalistic party called Serb Radical Party, which is the strongest party in Serbia with the tradition of fascism ("chetnics" during WWII), use this name, as an argument that Srebrenica was not a genocide despite the ICJ and ICTY judgements. The second problem is that there were so many massacres commited by Serbs which will be written here some day (many of them are proven in ICTY), that were not genocide, but crimes against humanity, so this name should be different to distinguish those terms. Emir Arven 17:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Response: Refer to the detailed discussions below, Emir. We can only consider objective facts: most notably, that the overwhelming number of references to this event in reliable sources, almost three years after the initial ICTY genocide ruling, continues to be Srebrenica massacre. A Wikipedia editor's belief that a particular name is the morally correct one doesn't factor into our decision about how the article should be named. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 18:15, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Survey - in opposition to the move

1. Oppose We should use the common name, which is currently "Srebrenica massacre". That the incident was a genocide is irrelevant. Not even the ICJ, whose decision many people are appealing to here, refers to the incident as the "Srebrenica genocide". —Psychonaut 22:28, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
2. Oppose The move proposal misrepresents the ICJ judgement, which does not use the term "Srebrenica Genocide" as an official title. The ICJ uses the terms "Srebrenica massacres" and "Srebrenica genocide" almost equally (7 uses vs. 8). Their press release regarding the judgement does not use the term "Srebrenica genocide" at all. Finally, as stated elsewhere, this proposal does not comply with Wikipedia's naming conventions, even going so far as to capitalize "genocide". --Ckatz^chat_spy 17:59, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

   My initial response, based on the ICJ press release used as the basis for the move request, is below. I have stricken this text and rewritten my response above based on the updated information presented. The original (and subsequent replies) are retained for the purposes of the discussion. If others feel it is more appropriate to move this text to the "Discussion" area, please feel free to do so. Ckatz

   XOppose The move proposal misrepresents the ICJ document, which does not use the term "Srbrenica Genocide" or "Srbrenica genocide" at all. The ICJ uses the terms "Srbrenica massacres" and "genocide at Srbrenica". This proposal does not comply with Wikipedia's naming conventions, even going so far as to capitalize "genocide". --Ckatz^chat_spy 22:57, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

   You are wrong. It uses the term Srebrenica Genocide. I gave examples of that above. The Dragon of Bosnia 13:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

   In all fairness, Ckatz referred to the press release and not the full judgement. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 14:07, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

   Specifically, the press release which was initially used as the basis for the move request. That link has now been updated to point to the full judgement. However, it is important to note that the judgement only uses the term "Srebrenica genocide" (small-"g"), not the title "Srebrenica Genocide" as claimed in the request. Furthermore, use of the term is almost equally split (8 to 7) with the use of "Srebrenica massacre". --Ckatz^chat_spy 17:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

3. Oppose WP:NAME#Use common names of persons and things. Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive. Wikipedia articles are named based on the most common term used to identify the subject. In this case, the recognized term is "Srebrenica massacre". -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 23:04, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
4. Oppose Per Wikipedia:Naming conventions the proposed move is not commonly used (see discussion below), and the ICJ does not use this specific name to describe it in link provided. // Laughing Man 00:37, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
5. Oppose per WP:NC, which calls for reflecting common English usage. The examples presented below by Domitius, Jim Douglas and me show an overwhelming preference for "Srebrenica massacre" (see "Examples of usage").
   As mentioned above, even the ICJ uses this form in the press release presented by the nominator, when finding that in legal terms the "Srebrenica massacre" constituted an act of genocide. It's the difference between actually naming something and merely mentioning an attribute of this subject. - Ev 03:40, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
   Addition: The ICJ Judgement (.pdf) mentions "Srebrenica massacre" seven times and "Srebrenica genocide" eight times. For the specific purposes of WP:NC, the document doesn't support a name change. - Ev 16:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
6. Oppose People are missing the point here. You don't negate the genocide if you refer to it as a massacre?! The simple fact is it is referred to as the Srebrenica massacre. Jamie 09:34, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
7. Oppose. Whatever we feel about how it should be called, we have to look at the arguments, and to be honest, I haven't seen a good reason for the move yet. Yes, the courts (ICTY and ICJ) decided it was genocide, but they also say it was a massacre and they also used the term "Srebrenica massacre". So, the argument being used in favour of the move can just as well be used against the move. Give me a good reason and I may switch. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 14:07, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

   Abstain. After reading Kahriman's analysis below, I'm no longer sure. Yes, "massacre" is used more often, but not by an overwhelming margin (in my opinion) and "genocide" is more precise. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 02:20, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

   Switching back to "oppose". Looking at the serious press, "massacre" is used quite a lot more. See the analysis of User:Ev below. Just to check, I tried one more: Time magazine, 3 results for "Srebrenica genocide" and 16 results for "Srebrenica massacre". The Nanking Massacre shows that the word massacre is also used for the killing of many thousands of people. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 22:45, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

8. Oppose The primary finding of the ICJ is that "Serbia has not committed genocide, through its organs or persons whose acts engage its responsibility under customary international law", although the full judgement does refer to both genocide and massacre. In customary English, Srebrenica could be regarded as "an act of genocide", but not really as "Srebrenica Genocide", since in English the term "genocide" is normally used to refer to killing on a much larger scale. In summary, it's not genocide, but it is an act of genocide. To rename the article "Srebrenica Genocide" would therefore be misleading. --NSH001 23:23, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

   Comment We have to distinguish some terms that we use here. The court concluded that the other crimes commited by various Serb forces during the war, such as mass killing, mass rapes, siege of Sarajevo, ethnic cleansing, detention camps (especially in Prijedor, Banja Luka, Brčko and Foča death camps - Manjača, Omarska, Trnopolje, Keraterm), destruction or deportations, are "acts of genocide" according to the Convention, but could not be qualified as genocide. They are crimes against humanity. But the crimes commited in Srebrenica or Eastern Bosnia by Republika Srpska are in fact the genocide with the clear intent to destroy as much people as possible (males mostly, Serbs did't plan just to kill 8000, they decided to kill as much as possible), so the ethnic group (Bosniaks - Bosnian muslims) will never be able to regenerate, because they destroyed the male population, which is really devilish, horrific plan. Who commited crimes againsta humanity? They are commited by various Serb forces included those from Serbia. Who commited genocide? The courte concluded it was Republika Srpska, but could not find direct Serbian control of the Serb forces from Republika Srpska entity during that specific event. The problem is that Slobodan Milošević, the president of Serbia died during his own trial so he was not convicted, and the evidence that were used against him on his trail, could not be used in Bosnia v. Serbia case according to the law. This event, Srebrenica Genocide, is the most horrific crime commited in modern Europe at the end of the 20th century, so it should be called by its real name. Serbia is the only country in the history of the world found guilty of failure to prevent and punish genocide. So as the courte concluded Serbia violated the Genocide Convetion. You can read very detailed reports directly from ICJ for more information: Serbia found guilty of failure to prevent and punish genocide The missing link. The Dragon of Bosnia 11:44, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

   Comment: Neil, you've fallen into the same misunderstanding that I see in many of the "Support" comments above. This discussion is not about whether the Srebrenica massacre was or was not a genocide. This discussion is only about the title of the article. The Holocaust was clearly a genocide, and yet the name doesn't contain that word. The Darfur conflict is widely considered to be a genocide (although not by the United Nations), but the article title, again, reflects the common English name of the event. On the other hand, the Rwandan Genocide and Armenian Genocide articles use the common names of those events in English, which do use the word "Genocide". -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 23:46, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

   Comment - strange, that's exactly the point I thought I was making (in addition to other points)! --NSH001 00:00, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

   NHS001, Srebrenica was genocide, full stop. It's known as the Srebrenica Massacre, that doesn't stop it being genocide. Whatever point you were trying to make you need to go back to the Genocide Convention and remind yourself that the Convention doesn't discriminate between smaller or larger genocides. An act of genocide is part of a process and at the same time it is that process. The title Srebrenica Genocide is perfectly legitimate, it's just not the most useful title to give the Article. --Opbeith 00:35, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

   There's even more than that. The 1988 genocide of the Iraqi Kurds is known as the al-Anfal Campaign, and the extermination of the Jews as the Final Solution (including Operation Reinhard, that is the death camps) - sanitarized names given by the perpetuators themselves. --HanzoHattori 00:41, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

9. Oppose. Srebrenica massacre is the most commonly used term. Nikola 11:13, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
10. Oppose. As long as Katyn massacre is under that name, Srebrenica massacre must be under `massacre` as well! (Katyn massacre took about 3 times more victims than Srebrenica massacre.) -- Obradović Goran (ta^lk 14:03, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
11. Oppose. Common term for that event is Srebrenica massacre and its known as Srebrenica massacre, not negating that there was genocide acts like in many other massacres, conflicts or "operations". --JustUser 14:55, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
12. Oppose. --Kaster 15:13, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

    Kaster, note that this is not a vote. It is not sufficient to simply state your support or opposition; you should provide a rationale as well. —Psychonaut 16:28, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

13. --SasaStefanovic • 16:42, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
14. Opose. That was massacre. --Djordjes (talk) 18:34, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
15. Opose --Jovanvb 18:41, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
16. Opose. One should first read the text of UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide [42] before deciding if this crime should be named Genocide. The definition of Genocide is so broad that every crime committed against a national, ethnical, racial or religious group during Civil war in former Yugoslavia could be considered as Genocide. --Marko M 22:11, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
17. Opose --Djus 09:12, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
18. Oppose Allowing this to go through will open the floodgates for others to demand that their massacres be retitled genocides. --Groggy Dice T | C 03:38, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
19. Oppose We follow common usage precisely to avoid giving our own yes/no answers to such questions. Put "this was genocide" in the article, and source it; include the qualifications and arguments. In the long run, convince the world to speak of the Srebrenica Genocide. But until then, do what English does. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:11, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

Do I detect signs of a mass mobilisation above? There seem to be rather a lot of visitors who've never seen fit to comment before. Including someone who doesn't even seem to have noticed that genocide has been found proven under the terms of the Convention by the ICJ. --Opbeith 21:11, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

First examples of usage

Google tests:

• 193,000 hits for "Srebrenica Massacre" (excluding Wikipedia and forks, and User:Bosniak's blog)
• 73,400 hits for "Srebrenica Genocide" (excluding Wikipedia and forks, and User:Bosniak's blog)

--Domitius 20:35, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

According to the decision of International court of justice [43] this event is proclaimed as Srebrenica Genocide. I think that the decision of the International court of justice is more relevent than googling. The only reason for this amount for "Srebrenica massacre" is the name of the article on the wikipedia. Many websites are taking wikipedia's contant and putting it on their webpages. --Kahriman 20:44, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

The document you have linked to doesn't use the term "srebrenica genocide" anywhere; it uses "srebrenica massacres". Nikola 11:16, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

The New York Times takes its terminology from Wikipedia, Kahriman?

• 50 hits for "srebrenica massacre"
• 1 hit for "srebrenica genocide" (in a letter to the editor, not written by a NYTimes writer)

WP:NAME#Use common names of persons and things. Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive; it simply reflects the most common name already in use for any given subject. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 21:42, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

On basing the request on the ICJ judgment

As I stated in the "Srebrenica Genocide" section, the ICJ document has many references describing the massacre as an act of genocide; that is not in question. However, as to the proposed move, I don't see any indication that the court officially refers to the event as the "Srebrenica Genocide". In fact, the words "Srebrenica" and "Genocide" are not paired anywhere in the document in that fashion, either as "Srebrenica Genocide" or as "Srebrenica genocide". There are three occurrences of the term "Srebrenica massacres", and numerous uses of the phrase "genocide at Srebrenica" (small-g "genocide"). It is accurate to say the the ICJ declared the events at Srebrenica to be acts of genocide. However, I think it is inaccurate to claim that "this case is officially called Srebrenica Genocide", contrary to what is stated in the move request. --Ckatz^chat_spy 21:16, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

That is making mockery of Wikipedia. International court is international court. Rename to what it is. Genocide. End of story. --HarisM 21:28, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Since when is accuracy construed as "making a mockery of Wikipedia"? --Ckatz^chat_spy 22:50, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it is not possible to convince you that International Court explicitly said: Genocide happend in Srebrenica. You want keep it just as massacre, for me known reasons, which i will not discuss here. That's simple. Anyway, this is sad to watch, all this disscusion about bosnian war and genocides. What decision what international court must decide to convince you and others with "alternate views" (funny, ha) that genocide happend? If genocide happend - than article should be named in that way. End of story. --HarisM 23:12, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Ummm... please read my posts. I've never once claimed that the IJC didn't call it a genocide. This discussion is (or should be) only about the correct title for this article. --Ckatz^chat_spy 23:41, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Funny, very funny... as I excepted. I can't convince you. What I can i do. Dragon of Bosnia above posted official IJC statment about Srebrenica... I can't discuss anymore, I have nothing to add... --HarisM 16:20, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd ask you to add only one thing - what, exactly, is your point? You said "funny, very funny" - but I wasn't making a joke. You claim you cannot convince me that acts of genocide happened. When have I ever (ever ever) claimed they did not? Furthermore, it is extremely unfair to casually toss out the term "alternate views" (which, in the context of this article, refers to groups and individuals questioning the actual events at Srebrenica) as a means of negatively labelling Wikipedia editors who are only discussing the title of the page. --Ckatz^chat_spy 18:29, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Ckatz, if I remember rightly you turned up here saying you knew nothing about the massacre before you chose to intervene. Surely you've had plenty of time since then to familiarise yourself with the issues, including the argument about "Alternative Views", which had to do with characterising all forms of revisionism, denial and minimisation, and in particular the denial of genocide. All the arguments like MacKenzie's nonsense and the man in the street's do-it-yourself notion of genocide claiming that the Genoicide Convention and the ICTY judgments were irrelevant were part of that ragbag. They weren't simply talking about "actual events", they were talking about the designation given to those events, and that's very relevant to the title. I certainly feel uncomfortable finding myself in the company I'm in when I say that the title should stay Srebrenica Massacre, because a lot of them are the self-same proponents of that deliberately misleading title of "Alternative Views". All the same I still think keeping the title as it stands is the most effective way of ensuring that the reality of the genocide at Srebrenica is brought to the notice of as many people as possible (and I don't care two figs if I'm called a genocide denier by someone who I didn't notice here arguing for the reality of genocide and against the untruth of "Alternative Views" before we had the weight of the ICJ's ruling to reinforce the ICTY's finding). --Opbeith 00:55, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

And they really said "Srebrenica genocide"? It sounds really awkard. Maybe "Genocide in Srebrenica". "Bosnian genocide". Whatever. --HanzoHattori 22:41, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Your question is a good one, given the way the RfM is formed. However, the ICJ's document did not say "Srebrenica genocide" - it said "Srebrenica massacres" and "genocide at Srbrenica". --Ckatz^chat_spy 22:50, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Examples of usage

A few more examples of usage:

• Google Print test: "Srebrenica massacre" 127 ; "Srebrenica Genocide" 5 books.
• Google Scholar test: "Srebrenica massacre" 248 ; "Srebrenica Genocide" 23 results.
• Amazon.com test: "Srebrenica massacre" 211 ; "Srebrenica Genocide" 6 books.

The ratios are:
Google Print test 25:1 — Google Scholar test 10.7:1 — Amazon.com test 35:1

Regards, Evv 03:40, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Press:

• The New York Times: "Srebrenica massacre" 51 ; "Srebrenica genocide" 2 results (1 letter, 1 editorial piece that mentions "Srebrenica massacre" once & "Srebrenica genocide" once).
• The Times: Srebrenica+massacre 74 ; Srebrenica+genocide 1 result (using "Srebrenica genocide" in the title but "Srebrenica massacre" in the body).
• International Herald Tribune: "Srebrenica massacre" 49 ; "Srebrenica Genocide" 1 result (an editorial piece).
• The Guardian: "Srebrenica massacre" 129 ; "Srebrenica Genocide" 4 results (1 using "Srebrenica genocide" in the title but "Srebrenica massacre" in the body, 1 only in a link to the name of another article, 1 possible error [44]).
• The Southeast European Times: "Srebrenica massacre" 101 ; "Srebrenica Genocide" 2 results (1 quote).
• The Economist: "Srebrenica massacre" 20 ; "Srebrenica genocide" 1 result (with the brief description: "A definitive ruling that the Srebrenica massacre was genocide").
• BBC: "Srebrenica massacre" ca. 243 ; "Srebrenica Genocide" 6 results (1 letter, 1 denial, 2 quotes & 2 possible errors ([45] & [46]).
• CNN: "Srebrenica massacre" 70 ; "Srebrenica Genocide" 0 results.

Up to this point the press uses "Srebrenica massacre" almost always.

Regards, Ev 16:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Press usage from 26 February 2007 to 5 March 2007 - That is, since the ICJ Judgement (.pdf) :

• The New York Times: "Srebrenica massacre" 3 ; "Srebrenica genocide" 1 result (an editorial piece, included in both counts, since it mentions "Srebrenica massacre" once & "Srebrenica genocide" once).
• The Times: Srebrenica+massacre 4 ; Srebrenica+genocide 1 result (included in both counts, since it uses "Srebrenica genocide" in the title but "Srebrenica massacre" in the body).
• International Herald Tribune: "Srebrenica massacre" ca. 10 ; "Srebrenica Genocide" 0 results.
• The Guardian: "Srebrenica massacre" 3 ; "Srebrenica Genocide" 0 results.
• The Southeast European Times: "Srebrenica massacre" 1 ; "Srebrenica Genocide" 1 result.
• The Economist: "Srebrenica massacre" 1 ; "Srebrenica genocide" 0 result.
• BBC: "Srebrenica massacre" 2 ; "Srebrenica Genocide" 1 possible mistake [47], for it uses "Srebrenica massacre" only.
• CNN: "Srebrenica massacre" 2 ; "Srebrenica Genocide" 0 results.

Regards, Ev 01:29, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Massacre & Genocide

Massacre : The savage and excessive killing of many people indiscriminately . E.g. "The Hutus massacred the Tutsis in Rwanda"

Yes genocide happen in Srebrenica but by referring to it as a massacre you do not lose sense of crime? Indiscriminately killing thousands of people regardless of ethic origin, race or religion is awful. In my opinion adding genocide does not add weight to the subject matter it just furthur defines the subject matter, which can be done within the article and does not need doing in the title. Jamie 09:40, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is kind of lost, because genocide is worse then massacre. And, about the common naming, Srebrenica genocide was called Srebrenica massacre in press, before the verdict of ICJ. Now, after the verdict, I am pritty much sure that they will start calling it Srebrenica Genocide, by the name witch is used in the verdict. And Ckatz, you were saying that "Srebrenica Genocide" isn't mentioned in the verdict? How about this [48]?--Kahriman 15:14, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

First, you may be right, and after the ruling "Srebrenica genocide" may become common English usage. But only if/when that happens should the article be moved, not before: Wikipedia should passively reflect usage changes instead of actively spearheading them.

Furthermore, renaming the article before we can prove a corresponding change in common English usage, and doing so based solely on our personal perception that the usage change will certainly happen (no matter how sure we feel of it), would certainly infringe WP:NOT#CRYSTALBALL.

Second, as Jitse Niesen mentioned above, Ckatz referred to the ICJ press release that you presented, and not to the full ICJ Judgement (.pdf). - Best regards, Evv 16:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Announcement on bs:wiki

Comment. Apart from WP:RM, this debate was announced at bs:Wikipedia:Čaršija#Srebrenica_Genocide by User:Kahriman. Translation:

I would only like to ask you to vote for moving of Srebrenica massacre article to Srebrenica Genocide on English Wikipedia. You can vote here. Thanks in advance.

Duja► 11:29, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I have explainded that on my user talk page. --Kahriman 14:58, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Whatever. Taking arbitrary action without respect for other contributors is just as bad whichever side of the argument it comes from. We've had enough of that sort of aggression from other people, but I don't remember even the worst of the revisionists and genocide deniers simply taking the whole article off somewhere else. Genocide is now an undisputable fact, but that doesn't mean to say that specific instances will necessarily be referred to generally by the word itself. After all we don't call the Holocaust "The Genocide of the Jews of Europe". We ought to see what actually happens in the aftermath of the ICJ decision. --Opbeith 15:36, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I perfectly agree with Opbeith. We don't call Holocaust of Jews "Massacre of Jews", we call it Holocaust. Srebrenica was not simply a "massacre", it was genocide - confirmed at least 4 times (Krstic, Krstic apeal, Blagojevic, ICJ). Srebrenica Genocide is undisputable fact. It's been legally established, just like Holocaust and Rwandan Genocide. Allegations of 'Armenian Genocide' have not been legally established, and as such they are perfectly open to be disputed until and "if" Armenians prove that Turkey in fact committed genocide against them (which will simply not happen, as it is extremely hard - if not impossible - to prove that a state committed genocide). The point is --- you can dispute other allegations of genocides as much as you want, but you cannot dispute judicially established/proven FACTS such as Srebrenica Genocide, Rwanda Genocide, and Holocaust. They were legally established.... period. Bosniak 21:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak, you don't agree with me, you've simply not bothered to read what I said. You're not related to Osli73 by any chance? We're not talking about fact itself, we're talking about communicating facts and making factual reality as accessible as possible to the world that doesn't always know things by the name that you think it ought to. --Opbeith 23:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak's response to my friends: Kahriman, Haris, Opbeith and other friends - there are more important things to work on. I don't quite understand what the issue here is? Let's keep the article titled Srebrenica Massacre for now. Of course it was Genocide, as Opbeith pointed out, the fact that Srebrenica massacre was a genocide is undisputable. When it comes to Google: the reason term Srebrenica Massacre returns more results on Google is because it took 6 years after the massacre to be established as genocide. I agree with all of you that Srebrenica Massacre was a Genocide. Osli73 has been blocked for 2 weeks if I am not mistaken, so there should be less interruptions. I disagree that those who prefer to call it Srebrenica Massacre are genocide deniers; that's simply not true. The best way to solve this issue is by voting (I will cast my vote last), as I am still not sure what the real issue here is. Bosniak 21:23, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

To the Bosnian people

Okay, please try to calm down. It's (an act of) genocide, okay? But the even is known internationally as "Srebrenica massacre". You react almost as the issue was a name like "Srebrenica hoax" or whatever.

The other day I was watching a movie about the war in Sarajevo. There was a sniper who was shooting children, and when when he was found and killed, he was shot again and again, even if already dead. I see something similiar here - look, how enormous this talk page is just in one month or something. Seriously guys, you may stop now. --HanzoHattori 17:20, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Brother, you seem to be Bosnian too. The article should be renamed to Srebrenica Genocide. It's simple as that. We don't have to waste time arguing about this. All the best. Your brother Bosniak 21:28, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Summary

This section is not a summary of the arguments above, but a discussion on the WP:NCON table. - Ev 18:10, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I have found this table on the WP:NCON, and this table can help us to get consensus.

Criterion	Srebrenica Genocide	Srebrenica massacre
1. Most commonly used name in English	0	1
2. Current undisputed official name of entity	1	0
3. Current self-identifying name of entity	1	0
Total	2	1

• First, about first criterion, we saw that google is showing 75,600 results for Srebrenica genocide and 195,000 results for Srebrenica massacre. Although, as we can see, both versions are common and widly accepted (we cannot say that 75,600 results is negligible), but "Srebrenica massacre" is more common then "Srebrenica genocide", so 1 point goes for Srebrenica massacre. About the press witch is mentioned above, of course they used term "Srebrenica massacre" because using "Srebrenica genocide" in 2002 would be point of view, and they would loose neutrality and professional reporting. But now, after ICJ's verdict it is certain that this case is genocide, they can use it whenever they want, because in 2002, massacre was fact and genocide was POV, but now genocide is also a fact.

• Second, we agreed that official name is "Srebrenica genocide" (right?). We know that this case was genocide and we should call it by it's name. When some psychopath shoot 10 person on some marketplace - that is massacre. When thiefs enter the bank and kill 5 bankers - that is also massacre. These cases are not genocide, because in first, purpose of massacre was mental condition of attacker and in second, it was money. But, purpose of Srebrenica massacre was extermination of one nation or ethnic group. By definition, that is genocide, and that is proven in ICJ. We need to make a difference between first two cases and third. If we don't, that is great insult for the victims, their families, Bosniaks and every Bosnian who feels that his/her homeland is BiH. Massacre doesn't imply genocide, but genocide implies massacre. Calling it just a massacre, we are denying genocide. And denying genocide is as bad as antisemitism.

• And third, self-identifying implies to the taking point of view of the person(s) who is/are the most related to the case. Who are those person? Relatives of the victims (we cannot know victims' opinion because they are brutaly murdered)? Mothers who lost their underage sons? Bosniaks? Bosnians (those who feels like that)? All of them think that was genocide and they are calling it "Srebrenica genocide".

--Kahriman 21:37, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I dispute your claims that "Srebrenica genocide" is the "current undisputed official name of entity" and the "current self-identifying name of entity". For one thing, there are numerous "official" sources involved. If the massacre was planned and executed by the Army of Republika Srpska, as the article states, then surely this entity has some claim to officialdom over its name. Certainly the ICJ's official name should also be considered. However, you have not given any evidence that "Srebrenica genocide" is the ICJ's official name for the event. In fact, editors here indicate that the ICJ variously uses "Srebrenica genocide", "Srebrenica massacre", "genocide in Srebrenica", and possibly other terms. With respect to the "current self-identifying name of entity", this criterion simply doesn't apply because the "entity" in question is an event, not a person or an organization, and thus cannot name itself. Even if you want to get around this fact by claiming we should consider the name used by those individuals most involved in the event, consider that most of them do not speak English, and therefore would not have a preference for either "Srebrenica genocide" or "Srebrenica massacre". If they do have such a preference, you have not provided any evidence for it. —Psychonaut 22:23, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

As Psychonaut mentions, points 2 & 3 ("current undisputed official name of entity" & "current self-identifying name of entity") do not apply to this event. This is simple common sense.

Regarding point 1, the "most commonly used name in English" is overwhelmingly "Srebrenica massacre", as proven by the examples of usage given in this discussion.

It is quite possible that this usage may change as a result of the ICJ ruling, but the change has to be proven. Let's wait a few months for new sources to appear, and only then, if "Srebrenica genocide" becomes common, request a move. In any case, the current request is premature. - Regards, Evv 22:45, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

About "current self-identifying name of entity", if we accept that survivors of the Srebrenica genecide have right to give the name to the event (because event cannot give the name to itself), then we are sure that they would prefer "Srebrenica Genocide". Here are some statments: [49] [50]. There are thousands of other examples on the internet. And about "current undisputed official name of entity", it is simple, "genocide" is "massacre in purpose of extermination of one nation or ethnic group" and "massacre" is "mass killing". So saying genocide is purporting massacre. Genocide includesnationalism and it is worse crime than massacre. We need to make a diffrence between massacre and genocide. This case is massacre, but it is also a genocide. --Kahriman 23:15, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

On point 3: Kahriman, that's a huge "if" :-) and the answer is no, at least I don't accept it. The survivors of Srebrenica have every right to give a name to the event, just as every single individual of this planet has (including the perpetrators themselves). However, the name used by those survivors can't be considered "current self-identifying name of entity".
First for the simple reason that the Srebrenica massacre is not an entity, but an event, unable to "give itself a name". Second, because even if we were to accept that the criterion includes events and persons involved in them, then all individuals who took part in it would have equal rights to name it, including the perpetrators.

On point 2: the notion of "current undisputed official name of entity" could apply to events too, if certain requisits are met. First, we would require an institution with the attribution to give official status to the name of this kind of events. Second, the said institution should use that attribution in a clear manner (and not merely use a certain name sometimes, along with other equally valid designations). Third, we as editors would need to archieve consensus on that both previous requisits are met. It would probably mean another long page to add to the archives :-) Best regards, (the editor formerly known as Evv) Ev 16:07, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

This is the table as I see it, based on the discussion presented to date:

Criterion	Srebrenica Genocide	Srebrenica massacre
1. Most commonly used name in English	0	1
2. Current undisputed official name of entity	0	0
3. Current self-identifying name of entity	0	0
Total	0	1

1. Srebrenica massacre is clearly the common name in English, and remains so, well after the ICTY ruling.
2. There is no "official name" for this event, nor is there any body with the authority to impose any particular name (as there is with a nation-state, for example, which has the clear authority to name itself).
3. An event doesn't have a "self"; it cannot have a "self-identifying name".

I'm willing to entertain the speculation that this event might one day be referred to as the "Srebrenica Genocide", or as something else altogether. But Wikipedia articles aren't named based on speculation, nor are they named according to an editor's belief that a particular name is the morally correct one. Articles are named according to the policy guidelines described in WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NCON. Based on those policy guidelines, it's clear that the article is already named correctly, as Srebrenica massacre. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 00:23, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

On closing the move request

Srebrenica Massacre, rename to Srebrenica Genocide (problem)

"The page could not be moved: a page of that name already exists, or the name you have chosen is not valid. Please choose another name, or use Requested moves to ask an administrator to help you with the move. Do not manually move the article by copying and pasting it; the page history must be moved along with the article text." Bosniak 23:56, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

You have to ask an administrator to move the page and he will do that only if he is satisfied that it is the right thing to do (I'm neutral on this which I why I didn't participate in the survey - don't kill the messenger).--Domitius 00:10, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak, your attempted page move is premature, don't you agree? The overwhelming weight of policy-based arguments above make it clear that the article should not be moved. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 00:29, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I second that. - Ev 05:44, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak's Reply: Vast majority of users voted in favor to rename page to Srebrenica Genocide. However, I don't really see big problem with any of this. If we keep it titled Srebrenica Massacre - fine with me; if we change it to Srebrenica Genocide - fine with me. I also notice a big surge of Bosnians... my question is - where have you been all this time? Me and several other foreign contributors had a hard time dealing with vandalism associated with this article and perpetrated by genocide deniers, revisionists, and negationists in the past. Where have you been in the past? Please answer. Me and few other contributors felt like lonely donkeys on this page being outnumbered by revisionists and negationists. Thank you for coming, but why haven't you come here earlier? I am a little bit pissed, a little bit confused. Bosniak 01:14, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak, I know a survey seems like a vote, but it isn't really a vote in the sense of "majority rules"; it's a discussion that should be focused on Wikipedia policies. You might want to take a look at this page: WP:!VOTE: "Wikipedia decisions are not made by popular vote, but rather through discussions by reasonable people working towards consensus. Polling is only meant to be an assistant to discussion, and should be used with care." -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 01:32, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

...and the classic "Wikipedia is not a democracy" :-) Ev 05:44, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Jim Douglas, the problem with these rules is that you guys used them only when it works for your conclusions. When I suggested Bosniakophobia article, it was decided by a popular vote (mostly ultra-nationalist Serbs who voted against the idea). Then, you guys voted whether to use "alternative view" or "genocide denier" terms, and it was voted by popular vote in favor of "alternative view". So, it seems that you guys use different rules for different conclusions. Bosniak 03:17, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak, you've been warned below [at "Dr Mitov's response"] (yet again) to curtail the personal attacks, so I'll respond only to the substance of this comment. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bosniakophobia was not a popular vote; AfD is never simply a popular vote. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 03:52, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Redirect

According to the above poll I moved the page. Emir Arven 16:00, 8 March 2007 (UTC) Or this should do an administrator? If I did smth wrong, I am sorry, but this poll was long time here. Emir Arven 16:03, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

You should avoid cut and paste moves. Where is this poll? Did you employ the WP:RM format? El_C 16:13, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

See #Survey.--Domitius 16:15, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

That at least answers the first question. El_C 16:21, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, sorry. Kahriman employed the request according to Wiki policy. I thought, it would be ok to move the page because the poll is pretty clear. Emir Arven 16:30, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not seeing a closed WP:RM entry (link?), and the poll seems to lack supermajority consensus (unless there were a lot of socks on one side). El_C 16:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand. You mean the poll I linked to above (#Survey) has not been closed and had the result pronounced by an admin?--Domitius 16:53, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

It should be noted that this is the second attempt to move the article before the move request is properly closed by an administrator, and that both attempts have been based on the number of votes alone.

Please, see the "Srebrenica Massacre, rename to Srebrenica Genocide (problem)" sub-section above, and the arguments made there. Nothing has changed in the last five days. - Regards, Ev 16:55, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, you should find an uninvolved admin (such as myself) with the time (not myself) to study the RM — because it is really disorganized & confusing. And certainly, avoid supplanting a redirect for a move. El_C 17:03, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

You're right, El C. I will add/modify a few sub-section headings to make the discussion more comprehensible (following the talk page guidelines). In any case, I will appreciate if you could keep an eye on this page, in case a similar thing happens again. - Regards, Ev 17:16, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

My edits. - Ev 17:43, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I sent some notes about this to Husond a few days ago as well (User talk:Husond#Talk:Srebrenica massacre#Requested_move). I probably should have posted them on this page, but they would have gotten lost in the mess. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 17:22, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

A picture request

Hello, does anyone have the picture of the Dutch soldier crying after kid and men were deported. It was on this article before, but now removed, please add a link here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.203.46.183 (talk • contribs) 02:03, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

You mean this one? http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/3/3b/180px-Sreb8.JPG Bosniak 21:29, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

IMPORTANT: Can you answer this question?

During International Court's Judgment, Serbia appointed ad hoc Judge Mr. Kreća, while Bosnia-Herzegovina appointed British ad hoc Judge Prof. Elihu Lauterpacht. Now, when judges voted FOR or AGAINST certain notions (example here) we could notice votes from Serbian ad hoc judge Mr Kreca, but there were no votes from British ad hoc Judge representing Bosnia-Herzegovina. The question is why? How come Serbian judge voted, and British Judge who was appointed by the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina did not vote? Bosniak 21:59, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Because the actual Bosnian ad hoc Judge was Mahiou. Live Forever 22:14, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

ICJ February 27, 2006 Public sitting (.pdf) (page 10): BiH originally nominated Sir Elihu Lauterpacht, who acted as ad hoc Judge of the ICJ in the Bosnia v.Yugoslavia case during 1993-2001. After his resignation, BiH chose Mr. Ahmed Mahiou. - Regards, Evv 22:28, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Dr Mitov's response

Dr Mitov's response to everybody who reads this: What if I tell you that I know how aproximately there were killed muslims after serbian attacked Srebrenica and why they attacked that city? Dr. Mitov 23:15, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Then I would ask for you to provide citations, otherwise this would simply violate WP:NOR. Djma12 02:03, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment by Bosniak, 03:20, 5 March 2007 (UTC), removed. Please keep in mind Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Djma12 03:30, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Dr Mitov's response:

Well, I just heard several stories from the people who were there at this time. Even they don't know the right number of murdered men, but they claim that 8.000 is too much even for their counts. Some of them said that they would like to be even more counted, more then 8.000, more then 10.000 men, but in reality, by their count is about 2000-3000. The reason why they did that is simple - revenge. Why revenge? Because, in earlier years, 1992-1995., muslims from Srebrenica killed about 1500-2000 people from surrounding villages, around Srebrenica, example village Kravica, just to clear what ever is serbian, to become clean muslim land. And they killed, men, women, children, even cows and pigs.

You also have to know that in II World war, there were lot of masacres from all sides, but mostly from Croats, Ustashas, which killed in Jasenovac http://www.jasenovac.org/ more then 500.000 people.

Image: [51] Children in Jasenovac

Image: [52] Read some books.

[Jasenovac] http://www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/007.shtml by Carl Savich

Dedijer, Vladimir. The Yugoslav Auschwitz and the Vatican: The Croatian Massacre of the Serbs during World War II. Buffalo, New York: Prometheus Books, 1992.

Fotich, Konstantin. The War We Lost:Ý Yugoslavia's Tragedy and the Failure of theÝWest. New York: Viking Press, 1948.

Gutman, Israel,ed. The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust. 4 vols. New York: Macmillan, 1990.

Markovic, Marko S. Half a Century of the Serbian Calvary (1941-l99l). Birmingham, England: Lazarica Press, 1992.

Paris, Edmond. Genocide in Satellite Croatia, 1941-1945: A Record of Racial and Religious Persecutions and Massacres. Chicago: The American Institute for Balkan Affairs, 1961.

Wiesel, Elie. Letter to the Author, October 31, 1995.

So, at the end. If you can not accept what I heard from people. Fine, do what you got to do, but the only one who will judge to all murderers will be God, history and their own conscience. Dr. Mitov 08:59, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Dr Mitov, this article is concerned with genocide during the Bosnian war of 1992-1995 and specifically at Srebrenica. The ground has been covered extensively. What you say you have been told has a core of truth, insofar as there were innocent Serb victims, but that core of truth has been inflated and exaggerated to the point where the suffering of those real victims is overlooked precisely because of individuals like yourself who deny the reality of the suffering endured by thousands of others in the course of the systematic campaign of genocide undertaken by the people you seem to be defending. Whatever second-hand evidence you have would presumably have been submitted as direct testimony to the defence teams of individuals such as Krstic and Blagojevic. Their defence did not hold up when it was put to the test in court proceedings. Until as you say God eventually judges those involved we will have to make do with the findings of the ICTY, the ICJ and the Bosnian, Serbian and Croatian courts.

Please check the references in the article to the subject of villages around Srebrenica and if, you can make the effort, look at the discussions on this talk page, now in the Archive files, that led to the inclusion of those references. --Opbeith 13:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I can't see the relevance of selectively quoting WW2 history here other than to assume that Dr Mitov is mistakenly justifying the Srebrenica Genocide as revenge for WW2. But he ignores that WW2 was as much an idealogical conflict within national groups as it was an ethnic conflict between national groups. The selective reference is to Jasenovac, but there is no mention of Sajmiste, Bleiburg, the treatment of Bosnjiaks during WW2, or the Moljevic plan etc. And I don't think these issues can be looked on as an accounting ledger. There is scope for an section on how such events affect subsequent political programs, and how national mythology can be based on them. But I think it would need to be a separate article and does not fit in this article. iruka 00:36, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Dr Mitov and Jasenovac (his off topic rumbling) - my response

Dr Mitov was influenced by Serbian mythology which claims that half a million people died in Jasenovac Concentration Camp, which is just another example of unprovable allegation. No international court has rulled that so many people died in Jasenovac, and I hate to say it, but I am sick of Serbian lies and propaganda regarding historic events that took place in the Balkans. Dr Mitov failed to acknowledge mass scale massacres committed by Serbian Christian Orthodox terrorists and butchers who slaughtered over 100,000 Bosniaks during World War II. Dr Mitov also failed to acknowledge that Serbian Christian Orthodox Terrorist Gavrilo Princip was responsible for starting World War I, and World War I pretty much pulled World War II. Of course - Dr Mitov, like most Serbs - are brainwashed by Serbian historiography and lies about alleged genocides against Serbs that never happened (no international court confirmed them - they are just plain allegations). If there was genocide against Serbs in the World War II, then there was certainly a genocide against Bosniaks in the World War II also - however, none of these allegations were proven, they are just allegations and one can use any number one sees fit. Bosniak Institute published documentation that Yugoslav/Serbian government kept secret and it involves the number of dead at Jasenovac Camp, which was well under 50,000 read here . Of course, Serbians are known to exagerate things, so they claimed 10 times more dead, and their allegations were never proved in the court of law, however Bosniak allegations of Genocide in Srebrenica were proven in the international courtroom at least 5 times so far!Bosniak 21:03, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Yep... being this civil, choosing this kind of wording, and calling users and whole nationalities "brainwashed" is exactly what our policy on personal attacks encourages us to do. - Ev 21:34, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak, you sound exactly like the people you despise. Fairview360 22:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

He must be related to them ;) Nikola 11:51, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

The ones who are truly despicable are the ones who try to rehabilitate mass murderers such as Radovan Karadzic. But really this entire section should be deleted since it does nothing to inform this article. It belongs on some irrelevant chat page. Fairview360 13:40, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

True, because I am sick of genocide deniers. I am sick of these monsters. Bosniak 20:36, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

"True, because I am sick of genocide deniers. I am sick of these monsters" well what are you bosniak when you say "Of course - Dr Mitov, like most Serbs - are brainwashed by Serbian historiography and lies about alleged genocides against Serbs that never happened" Are you saying that the killing of AT LEAST 70 000 never happened and it wasnt genocide? Paulcicero 21:25, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Legally established genocides include Srebrenica, Rwanda, Holocaust. I have yet to see one internation court's rullinig handing down judgment that genocide was committed against serbs. Of course, in serbian propaganda historiography, you will find all kinds of garbage - according to them, they survived 100 genocides. However, not even one international judicial judgment confirms anything they say. The point is - no matter what serbs do to deny Srebrenica genocide in which over 8,000 Bosniaks died - the fact is that Srebrenica genocide is undeniable at this point and confirmed in at least 5 judgments of both ICTY and ICJ. So, serbs can continue to live in their dreams and propaganda, but the fact is - we won, we proved your propaganda wrong at International Courts, and we will keep exposing your lies at ICTY and other corts, including state court of Bosnia Herzegovina where dozens of serbs are currently on trial. Bosniak 20:24, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

This kind of talk is exactly the kind of talk that preceded every major clash between nations, ideologies and religions on Balkans. Hate is a strong motive. The truth is that we were killing each other for centuries and that nothing is changed. Call it what you want, massacre or genocide, the dead would not mind. --Marko M 22:32, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually Bosniak, it was never established in a court of law that the Holocaust was genocide because the legal crime of genocide did not exist then. Still the Holocaust, Armenia, and Cambodia are accepted within the academic community as instances of genocide in the 20th Century. Who are you to deny genocide in Armenia and Cambodia because it wasn't proven in a court of law? Your standards are arbitrary. Your rhetoric self-defeating. Your rants undermine the credibility of those trying to preserve the truth of what happened in Srebrenica. With comments like yours above, you are satisfying yourself but doing a disservice to those you purportedly want to defend, the victims of Srebrenica. For their sake, I suggest you take an honest look in the mirror and stop using the Srebrenica discussion page as an avenue for your own self-indulgent convulsions.Fairview360 01:09, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak, i have been reading your ramblings above and i cannot get enought of your self-indulgence. What are you talking about? According to Jewish sources(find them on your own, i have read them, i am not going to search for you), around 600,000 Serbs were murdered in Jasenovac camp during WWII. Those are NOT Serbian sources, they are Jewish. That's enough for me. What you think, i don't care. Or maybee you deny the Holocaust as well? And off course Jasenovac was not declared a genocide because that term was coined in 1948. Second, you keep saying that you are winners. Besides the fact that you constantly mentioning it points to a serious complex, exactly what did you win? Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina? To me it seems like you lost because Alija Izmetbegovic wanted to have a clean muslim Bosnia, but he failed because you, and your co-conspirators Croats have 51%. And from the looks of it, if backward minded Muslim government in Sarajevo keeps calling for the abolishment of RS, RS will break away and you can have your Federation. You, next to your muslim Albanian breathren are the biggest cowards in the region, not winners. You start the whole mess and then when you get pounded like you should, you go asking for war reparations from me in Serbia, who along with most of my countrymen has never even seen the Bosnian border. Good thing that i won't have to pay from my pocket so that you can sit on your ass, build mosques, harbour terrorists and be a Muslim. And lastly, you keep alluding to some mythology, genocide denying and whatnot. If that many people were killed(which i doupt), then they were killed. I have not met a single person here in Serbia that denies that. Its a war, and people die in wars. What did you expect, people to tickle each other? It is what it is, and i accept that. But don't go calling every one of us out, because we in Serbia had nothing to do with it. Quite frankly, it's a war that happened in Bosnia, not Serbia, and most of us don't really care. We had and still have our own problems. And lastly, if you have a problem with anything i said, i'll be more then happy to explain a few things to you face to face. Maybee you will get a different perspective.68.9.45.195 23:30, 11 March 2007 (UTC)Aleksandar V.

As far as I followed what he was saying Bosniak was expressing his exasperation at Dr Mitov's tendentious and undiscussed editing of the article to read "of an estimated ***, still not proved and confirmed, 2,000 to*** 8,000 Bosniak males" (twice), followed by a round of post factum self-justification taking the foorm of anecdotal evidence that took no account of the legal findings previously dealt with here and included in the text of the article. Bosniak expressed his exasperation by pointing out that there is a repeated pattern of unsubstantiated allegations, exaggerations and lies refuting established evidence which is very rarely challenged by the sanctimonious guardians of the truth who are so prompt to weigh in with their condemnations. Yes, Bosniak goes over the top, but I seem to remember him acknowledging Jasenovac in the past so I assume his reaction was not to deny the reality of Jasenovac as such but rather the way Dr Mitov called in a claim of 500,000 dead at Jasenovac to support his denial of the genocide at Srebrenica, without challenge from the fact-police. Bosniak's going over the top pretty much follows a pattern of reaction to the genocide denial that's been a routine feature of this Discussion Page. Given the prevailing atmosphere of complacency in the face of denial and the meddling with established fact that goes on here that seems quite understandable. I note that the outraged comments that follow his angry outbursts are rarely seen in response to the wilful inaccuracies, misrepresentations and downright lies often purveyed here. --Opbeith 22:06, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith, exasperation is not a valid excuse to infringe the current policies on civility and no personal attacks. It is perfectly possible to express exasperation in a civilized manner, without resorting to the kind of comments User:Bosniak made.

User:Bosniak didn't "point out a certain pattern of behaviour", but instead responded with his own list of "historical truths", well seasoned with what can only be described as inflammatory hate speech. It was bound to be followed by outraged comments.

I haven't read this talk page, nor the article for that matter, but having seen "wilful inaccuracies, misrepresentations and downright lies" in discussions concerning many other articles I do get the idea. Nevertheless, nothing can possibly justify a comment like the one User:Bosniak made – at least not in Wikipedia's talk pages. - Best regards, Ev 14:49, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith, if we are going to present ourselves as defending the standards of civil society, we must hold our own accountable. There really is no excuse for Bosniak's behavior and I believe your better self knows it. Often the abused become the abusers. That cycle must end. It ends by holding all accountable for their actions, not by making excuses.Fairview360 16:14, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Fairview360, you don't like how I read Bosniak's comments. I suggest you reread them.

Dr Mitov in his response refers to hearing "several stories from the people who were there at this time. Even they don't know the right number of murdered men, but they claim that 8.000 is too much even for their counts. Some of them said that they would like to be even more counted, more then 8.000, more then 10.000 men, but in reality, by their count is about 2000-3000. The reason why they did that is simple - revenge. Why revenge? Because, in earlier years, 1992-1995, muslims from Srebrenica killed about 1500-2000 people from surrounding villages, around Srebrenica, example village Kravica, just to clear what ever is serbian, to become clean muslim land. And they killed, men, women, children, even cows and pigs."

OK, is this business of numbers on one side and the other and the story of revenge not what we've discussed umpteen times and been informed umpteen times about by the ICJ and the UN Secretary General's report? And Dr Mitov still comes along and amends the article without discussion (and acknowledgments to the editors who corrected his revisions).

Dr Mitov goes on to say "You also have to know that in II World war, there were lot of masacres from all sides, but mostly from Croats, Ustashas, which killed in Jasenovac more then 500.000 people."

What's the relevance of Jasenovac except as an attempt to provide justification for Serb actions? Various sources seem to put that the total number of deaths at Jasenovac at somewhere in the very rough region of 80,000, including 40 to 50,000 Serbs, the rest being Roma, Jews, Catholic Croats, Muslims classed as Croats and others. I accept that the numbers may have been greater but there doesn't seem to be substantiated evidence of up to half a million as Mitov alleges.

The figure is terrible enough anyway. It is clear that the Ustase set out to exterminate large numbers of Serbs and other national, religious and ethnic groups at Jasenovac, and did so under conditions of barbaric cruelty and wilful neglect. The regime seems to have been vile beyond belief to normal people (until you stop and consider what was done in Croatia and Bosnia from 1991 to 1995). Jasenovac cannot be excused. But Jasenovac does not excuse Srebrenica or the rest of the atrocities perpetrated in Bosnia and Croatia, not exclusively but very largely by Serbs.

If all the succession of Dr Mitovs won't accept that Srebrenica was really a genocide even after it has been proven several times over under the terms of the Genocide Convention, what does that tell us about the reliability of their version of history? Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, the saying goes. If you insist on denying a particular aspect of reality because it suits you to, and you misrepresent another reality to consolidate your evasions and denials, there comes a time when someone is going to point out exactly what what you're doing means.

If you deny that what happened at Srebrenica was genocide, if you minimise the number of victims, if adjust the number of deaths on your own side upwards in order to achieve some sort of parity, if you turn the chain of aggression and reaction back to front, if you claim a historical justification and disregard contemporary motivations and you then magnify the scale of your historical inspiration, and you do all this time after time, then there eventually comes a time when you're going to be offered a reality check, by being shown what it means to have your own source of pain treated in the same way that you treat others'.

Fairview360, that's how I interpreted what Bosniak was saying. A not too precisely thought out reality check. But that's what it was - a long-due reality check. I'm afraid my better self and my ordinary self still happen to be the same person, and they read what Bosniak said in just the same way. Perhaps you might try and read what he said yourself again, a little more slowly.

You might understand why Bosniak makes the point about exaggeration. I do. Certainly not all Serbs/Serbians exaggerate, and honour to the truth-bearers, but I've heard an awful lot of Dr Mitovs minimising in one direction and maximising in another. And I've heard plenty of insistence that Srebrenica wasn't a genocide because it wasn't proven, because the court was wrong or was biased or the wording of the Genocide Convention wasn't right, or because the numbers weren't enough, and now we're even being told that the ICJ verdict isn't conclusive because the US challenged the ICJ's jurisdiction after its US-Nicaragua verdict. Well, if that's the argument, then when the revenge card gets played, that's when it's about time to point out what the implications of that argument are for allegations of past "genocides".

The list of victims at https://cp13.heritagewebdesign.com/~lituchy/victimlist.php deserves my respect and the list of victims at http://www.srebrenica-zepa.ba/srebrenica/spisak.htm deserves equal respect. --Opbeith 21:42, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith, I agree with your assessment of Dr. Mitov. He is what he is. Meanwhile, Bosniak is as dismissive of the crimes against Serbs ("just plain allegations" "lies" "brainwashed") as Serbian ultra-nationalists are of the crimes against Bosniak. Meanwhile, the Serb-bashing by Bosniak is indiscriminate ("Dr Mitov, like most Serbs") and racist. This kind of nationalist rant only empowers Serbian nationalists. It gives the majority of reasonable citizens of Serbia nowhere else to go since according to petulant racist rants like Bosniak's, they don't exist. According to Bosniak, there is no majority, not even a plurality of Serbs who simply want to live normal lives free of nationalism. Bosniak obviously hates Serbs. His hatred blinds him, is divisive, and will only fuel further conflict. Furthermore, it pushes him constantly into behavior that is in violation of numerous wiki rules. The rules exist for a reason. Osli73 is not the only one who ought to be held accountable for his actions.

If Bosniak can not act in a civil manner, he does not belong in wikipedia.

In the political arena, such rants only hurt the cause of creating a lasting just peace in the Balkans.

Bosniak needs to look in the mirror and get past the rage. He is headed down the wrong path. I have many good Bosnian Muslim friends who have suffered abject humiliation and torture at the hands of ultra-nationalist Serbs, who have been raped, beaten, had their loved ones butchered before their very eyes. They seek justice against those who are responsible for these crimes but with maturity, having gotten past the cesspool of rage that Bosniak currently stews in. They do not lash out with hatred but rather live in peace with their Serb neighbors. If they can do it, Bosniak can. I have no more tolerance for these destructive rants by Bosniak. He needs to be held accountable just as Osli73 with his sly manipulations must also be. Enough is enough. Fairview360 22:50, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

There can be no comparison between terrible events in Srebrenica and genocide against Serbs in Independent State of Croatia during World War II. Any licitation with number of victims is irresponsible. But comparing Srebrenica to Jasenovac is nothing more than Holocaust denial. According to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington DC[53], the events in Croatia during WW2 were part of the Holocaust. On the official site of this museum there is special chapter dedicated to this events under the name “Holocaust Era in Croatia 1941-1945 Jasenovac”.[54] The research of this museum offers more objective approximation of number of Serb victims killed during Holocaust. Not as high as some other estimated numbers of victims, it’s still terrible high, quote: The Croat authorities murdered between 330,000 and 390,000 ethnic Serb residents of Croatia and Bosnia during the period of Ustaša rule; more than 30,000 Croatian Jews were killed either in Croatia or at Auschwitz-Birkenau.[55] These victims weren’t part of any armed formation or army, they weren’t armed, they didn’t burn croatian villages or slaughter their women and children and they didn’t have protection of UN forces. I believe that Wikipedia shouldn’t be used for making new or changing old history. I do not usually engage in long and fruitless discussions as this one. But people like Bosniaks motivate me to contribute to the truth by offering the sources that are more reliable then someone subjective view of past events. I am sorry that I can’t contribute at the same way to this article. Only time will tell how many people died in Srebrenica and if this was genocide or not. I don’t believe that Wikipedia could cope with responsibility for making judgment on this matter. Wikipedia is a powerful tool and it should not be misused. --Marko M 21:56, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Marko, your account of WW2 is well argued but you take a jump off the deep end when you say "Only time will tell how many people died in Srebrenica and if this was genocide or not." Time enough has passed for us to know that at least 8000 lives were lost during the Srebrenica massacre and there is plenty of evidence and several court decisions to decisively conclude that Srebrenica was an act of genocide. Fairview360 22:15, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

What I meant was this. All the archives open after 50 year period. All the major actors of events at Srebrenica are free. Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic are at large and Naser Oric was sentenced by ICTY to two years in prison and immediately released[56]. Justice is not only slow but it’s blind too (Sorry, couldn’t restrain my self from making this comment). There is still a lot of research to be done in future. --Marko M 09:10, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

If you said,"Only time will tell more clearly how many people died in Srebrenica and to what degree genocide was committed.", then combined with your clarification, we would have no disagreement. I agree that we need to see documentation and hear testimony that is currently unavailable to get a clearer more comprehensive picture. And I agree that it will take about 50 years for more of this to get out in the open. Given that you are ten years younger than me, it is more likely that you will have a chance to see these documents. But then again, given the nature of Balkan politics, I think there will be a pressing political interest to keep things secret for, unfortunately, hundreds of years. My guess is that we agree that the answer to stability is to get the whole truth out in the open. It is a worthy endeavor. Fairview360 13:31, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

We can agree to some extent that establishing the truth is essential for resolving issues surrounding Srebrenica but only in order to start reconciliation process. If the sole purpose of establishing the truth is to point the finger to one nation and mark it as genocidal, we couldn’t agree less. That kind of approach will lead as nowhere. Having in mind all the reasons that you stated in your reply, I don’t think that even I will live long enough to learn real truth about events in Srebrenica. --Marko M 09:11, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Fairview360, calm down. No international court has ruled that genocide was committed against Serbs in the world war II. They are voluntarily coming up with numbers of their dead, some of them even claim 1.5 million dead, with no valid documentation whatsoever. Srebrenica Genocide list of victims is well documented, with first and last names, birth dates, fathers' names, SSN numbers, etc. Ultra-nationalist Serbs (and their historiography in general) keep pushing their genocide claims onto us in their anti-Srebrenica propaganda. Instead of wasting so much energy to hold me accountable, I suggest you focus that energy to hold Srebrenica Genocide deniers accountable. While I appreciate your work in Bosnia where you help innocent civilians overcome traumas of war, I condemn your unfair criticism towards me. Your energy would be better wasted into holding Srebrenica Genocide deniers accountable for their fascist views. I do not believe that all Serbs are same. There are good and bad people everywhere. Those Serb individuals who recognize genocide in Srebrenica are good people, and those who don't are scums. I have a friend who is from Serbia (and still lives in Serbia), he is Serbian and he condemns Srebrenica genocide denial. He's a good person, I have kept in touch with him for over 3 years. He's a wonderful human being and I might even introduce you to him. You need to calm down and stop throwing your allegations of racism and hate at me. I haven't seen you yet be as rude to Srebrenica Genocide deniers as you were rude to me on this talk page. You know my email. I am not going to argue with you publicly. If you have anything else to say, you know my email. And I hope you start holding fascists accountable more than you hold me accountable for pointing out that no international court confirmed genocide against Serbs in world war 2. If you want to accept voluntary numbers made by Serbian historiography, go ahead. At least Srebrenica is well documented, so we can say without reasonable doubt that the genocide was committed. I condemn your unfair rage on this talk page. Bosniak 21:48, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak,

The absence of a court decision does not prove that genocide never occurred. It simply means either a) it was never taken to court or b) there was not enough conclusive evidence according to the judges to prove genocide. You use the absence of such a judgement to deny the occurence outright. If you look at what the Ustasa did during WW2-- putting aside the Serbian ultra-nationalist distortions (I am intimately aware of Serbian ultra-nationalist propaganda) -- it is perfectly legitimate to describe the Ustasa's mass killings as genocidal. but instead you dismiss it outright.

If I am going to spend any of my time holding people accountable, I ought to do it evenly. I am not intent on giving you a free pass or anyone else. And if ever I cross the line, I too ought to be held accountable. One way I deal with Serbian ultra-nationalists on wikipedia is to ignore them. One way I deal with abusive wiki editors is to ignore them. So it goes.

It is good to hear that you have a Serbian friend. Unfortunately, one can be friends with someone from a different group while still being prejudiced. Given your apparent appreciation of your Serbian friend, I suggest you think of him and his family while writing what you write. When I read your caustic dismissive words littered with comments such as "like most Serbs", I think of my Serbian friends. They do not deserve your insults. You can describe the power of propaganda and how it has influenced collective opinion in Serbia but virulent personal attacks are not warranted. Calling members of the Serbian Orthodox Church "scum" is abusive. You can indeed communicate what you want to say in a far more constructive manner.

I do not believe my description of your behavior is inherently rude. Your language is indeed abusive. And your recent entry at the Kosovo article (It's just a great feeling to watch Albanian Kosovo become independent. It's a wonderful, fullfilling, satisfying, feeling. It's like an orgasm, in political sense of the word. Bosniak 20:34, 9 March 2007) shows me that you are not too interested in civil behavior. If you are going to present yourself as someone dedicated to helping the victims of Srebrenica, someone holding the moral high ground, you ought to behave better. Given the subject matter, the mass killing of innocent people, your behavior ought to leave some room for dignity. Instead you descend into behavior more apt to be found on an elementary school playground. It is disappointing to say the least. I do not believe my words now are rude, but rather present a legitimate description of and understandable reaction to your behavior.Fairview360 23:26, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

David Rohde

David Rohde won a Pulitzer prize for exposing the Srebenica massacre and the Serbs jailed him until his release was negotiated. --HanzoHattori 15:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Picture regarding Orthodox Church priest

By my opinion this picture gives wrong impression that Serbian Orthodox Church supported Srebrenica massacre, or generally war. Priest couldn't know what will that soldiers do tomorrow, and his duty is to "give a prichest" (i really don't know what is the word for this religious ceremony in english) to any who "demands" it. Not that I'm religious person, quite contrary, but I think that connecting massacre (genocide) with SOC is insult for any Orthodox Christian. Dragoljub Kojadinovic 23:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Holy Communion or the eucharist I think is the word you are looking for? iruka 07:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Michael Sells is of Serbian origin and in this book he documents the role of the Serbian Orthodox Church in fostering ethnic hatred. You might want to read it.

"Michael Sells' The Bridge Betrayed: Religion and Genocide in Bosnia is essential for anyone who wants to understand the forces manipulated by those Balkan leaders who orchestrated the violent assault on the Slavic Muslims of Bosnia. Sells documents the way in which this assault was a religious genocide perpetrated by both Serbian Orthodox and Croatian Roman Catholic Christian extremists. He shows why and how politicians, intellectuals and clergy exploited ancient religious mythologies, ethnic loyalties, and nationalistic ambitions and used them to fuel an unholy fanaticism."

http://www.amazon.com/Bridge-Betrayed-Religion-Genocide-Comparative/dp/0520216628 Fairview360 01:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the link - looks interesting. Particularly that Clinton thought so highly of it - will be reading it. iruka 07:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Dragoljub Kojadinovic, as already documented, Serbian Orthodox Church was fostering hate. You might to more research before starting to defend those scums. Bosniak 21:34, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

"Serbian Orthodox Church was fostering hate" - Why are you so hateful? You are worse then both Karadzic and Mladic. You were saying that serbs werent victims of genocide during ww2 and now you are saying that the serbian church was fostering hate? Are you stupid or something? Paulcicero 21:59, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak, if you keep using abusive language, I am going to lodge a request that you be blocked. Paulcicero, it is utterly absurd that you say an abusive wiki editor is worse than two wanted war criminals indicted for crimes against humanity. Please do research on the role of the Serbian Orthodox Church during the war in Bosnia. It is entirely legitimate to describe the Serbian Orthodox Church as fostering inter-ethnic conflict during the war. Fairview360 22:54, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

You are saying that the whole SOC were fostering hate which isnt true, sure som individuals probably were but you cant describe the whole church as such. Regarding Bosniak, he is below my level and I wont sink to his, I just want to say that I think he is a sick indivdual whose main purpose here on Wikipedia is to spread hate. Paulcicero 12:09, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Give me a break. The Serbian Orthodox Church is not a religion but an institution, and as such is a perfectly legitimate target for criticism. It did foster hate - anyone who claims otherwise is simply naive and/or woefully uninformed. Their anti-Bosniak rhetoric was not simply the work of "individuals" (a logical fallacy the size of greater Serbia), but institutionally supported and espoused through official publications, statements, and the highest representatives. They not only "fostered" hate and helped lay the psychological ground for genocide, they actually directly participated in it by organizing, financing, and arming some of the most notorious paramilitary units that ravaged Krajina, Podrinje, and Posavina - Arkan himself personally thanked them "above all" in December '91. Live Forever 18:36, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

That doesnt even deserve a response Paulcicero 22:40, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it does. Analogous to what Live Forever is saying... I protested Bush from the day the 2000 Florida fiasco started. Large portions of America have always opposed what Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld have done. Still, two years from now, no one in the USA can say... oh that was just a few individuals, we are not responsible. America is responsible for what it does. I as a citizen of the USA and every other citizen is responsible for what our country does. An entire country can not hide from its responsibilities by blaming a few individuals. Shirking it off as just a few individuals is irresponsible and inaccurate. Fairview360 22:58, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Legally, those killed under the age of 18 are Children

There were many individuals killed during Srebrenica Genocide who were under the age of 18. Legally, individuals under the age of 18 are considered Children (in the eyes of law). I propose we incorporate this fact into the article, by stating the following intro:

The Srebrenica Massacre, also known as Srebrenica Genocide,[1] was the July 1995 killing of an estimated 8,000 Bosniak males, ranging in age from children (under 18 years old) to the elderly, in the region of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina by units of the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS) under the command of general Ratko Mladić during the Bosnian War. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bosniak (talk • contribs) 00:46, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak, you probably remember that after the reference to "including many children" was deleted at the Srebrenica article I found that the Federal Commission for Missing Persons list includes five names of 12- and 13-year-olds, one two months short of his thirteenth birthday, the other four without accurate birth dates/months. There are also 16 dates of birth in 1981 and 53 dates of birth in 1980. For the purposes of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child "a child means every human being below the age of eighteen years unless under the law applicable to the child, majority is attained earlier." I don't know the age of majority in Bosnia in 1995, but even if it was as low as 16 more than 70 children were killed and that's not counting any of the names with dates of birth in 1979, many of whom would still have been under 16 at 11 July 1995. --Opbeith 23:52, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Article lenght > 130 KB

Wikipedia:Article size has a "strong recommendation that articles be limited to a maximum of precisely 32 KB in size". Given that the article is now over 130 KB long the editors should focus on shortening the article, either by summarizing certain text, moving text to other articles or splitting the article. Your thoughts? Regards Osli73 11:11, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

My thought is that I hope you're not going to be taking wilful and arbitrary action again without waiting for general agreement. --Opbeith 00:00, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

My thought is that you will use a reduction in article size to proportionally increase emphasis on discredited fringe opinions. Live Forever 00:10, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Given his past deceitful behavior, I consider the proposition of good faith discussions with Osli to be patently absurd. Fairview360 00:13, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

• Irregardless of what Osli's motivations may be, the point is still somewhat valid. The article in the current form is difficult to follow as there is no good synopsis of events. Each subsection is long enough to form its own article. Please note that I am not advocating that anything needs to be censored. However, given the expansiveness of this subject, not everything needs to be on one page. For example, the "mass executions" section, though definitely notable and important, takes up 1/3rd of the article and detracts from readability. This could probably be made into its own sub-article. Djma12 ^(talk) 01:44, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Indeed it is a valid point. Osli makes many valid points. It is what he does between and behind the valid points that is a concern. Hence, few are willing to engage in any collaborative effort with him. Fairview360 02:00, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

• Then how about working with me ;-) ? Look, I assume the point of this article is to inform a new reader about the horrendous magnitude of this event. No one is served if the reader is bogged down halfway into Section 1.1. While we wrestle with the proper nuances of the Sandići massacre, perhaps we are missing the larger point of succinctly informing the public about this event. Djma12 ^(talk) 02:43, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I try to limit my editing to the introduction given a shortage of time, but there are some level-headed editors here who would work with you. The challenge is to prevent a good faith effort from getting comsumed by edit wars propagated by editors pushing their own agenda, sometimes aggressively, sometimes in an underhanded manner clothed in seemingly legitimate discourse. Given the amount of energy that can get wasted in this environment, as I said, I am strongly inclined to confine my editing to the introduction. But I wish you well if you want to take a shot at it. Fairview360 05:33, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Dear coeditors, my motive, which I have stated many times before, is to make this article a good presentation of the massacre in line with Wikipedia recommendations about NPOV, style and, as we are discussing here, article lenght. We may have different opinions about what constitutes NPOV (which, in turn, I believe has something to do with your 'motives'), but there is no reason for disagreeing about following such a clear Wikipedia recommendation as a maximum article lenght limit of 130 KB. Just as an article about WWII doesn't have to include lengthy descriptions of all theaters of war, all battles and all aspects of the war, neither does this article have to include mini-essays on the various parts and aspects of the massacre. Regards Osli73 10:01, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

• Osli, which parts do you think could use reduction? Djma12 ^(talk) 20:07, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Since we are talking about a reduction by about 75% it would have to include a combination of summarizing existing text and removal of entire sections (and perhaps replacing them with links to separate in-depth articles). A couple of suggestions:

1. Background: could be summarized with a more extensive description in a separate article (perhaps called "Bosnian War 1992-1995: Eastern Bosnia and the Srebrenica Massacre" or something similar. Here, the Serb strategy of ethnic cleansing, the fighting around the Srebrenica enclave 1992-93, the role of the UN safe havens and the final assault on Srebrenica could be described (as well as events after the fall of Srebrenica until the end of the war). Instead, a summary text of about one or, maybe, two, paragraphs could be included.
2. The Massacre: this is of course the main part of the article and would be difficult to include in another article, so this section would just have to be heavily summarized. Perhaps a greater use of references to the appropriate para in the ICTY judgement against Krstic (where most of the text has been taken from) could be used.
3. the remaining sections (3-7) could much more easily be moved to separate articles and replaced by very brief summaries since they are more about the politics of the massacre rather than the massacre itself.

Cheers Osli73 20:51, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

• Um, I think at 75% reduction is a bit extreme. Let's focus on one section at a time, and we should not remove material until the sub-articles are created. Djma12 ^(talk) 21:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Djma12, well Wikipedia strongly recommends 32 KB and we're today above 130 KB. What would your recommended target be - 50 KB?. Cheers Osli73 22:51, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Ah, WP:SIZE. Don't ask me how many times I've caught flak for trying to implement that... .Yes, 32 kb, but that's a suggestion only. However, I do think the article could use work for readability. Instead of aiming at a size limit, let's work one section at a time, in increments, and see where we end up. If we're still way over, we can reassess then. Djma12 ^(talk) 23:01, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, while WP:Size says that "Though article size is no longer a binding rule, there remain stylistic reasons why the main body of an article should not be unreasonably long, including readability issues". So, if we are not going to aim at the 32 KB limit outright, I do think it would be helpful to aim at some size limit, if only to contain the article's size in the future. Cheers Osli73 00:01, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, same old Osli73 back again. "Since we are talking about a reduction by about 75%" = "I'm going for a reduction of about 75%, so we'll proceed from there". In principle I agree to the idea of using sub-articles to slim down the main article but it's hard to believe that there'll be agreement on the details. I'm not sure about working one section at a time. It's important to have a coherent overall structure. The inclusion of significant content within that overall structure is a more important consideration than achieving an arbitrary target, particularly where there's a need to resolve controversy and misrepresentation. There must be no "heavy summarising" in order to impose an agenda. One advantage of having the source wording included is that it ensures that the practice of misleading summarisation of source texts that certain individuals engage in can be kept under some sort of control. Osli73, please bear in mind that this is one of the reasons why the article has grown to the length that it is. --Opbeith 23:58, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith, I understand your reticence to streamline an article so prone to POV attacks. However, in our efforts to please everyone, we've created an article that is borderline incomprehensible to the article's intended audience: people with no knowledge of these events. Sure, figuring out what to sub-article vs. what to keep will be difficult, but I think its a task we need to undertake if we really want to preserve a clear public record about this event. Djma12 ^(talk) 00:08, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith:

• I agree that it will be difficult to agree on the details (which, we are already having problems with). However, that shouldn't stop us from trying
• I agree that we should try to stick to the ICTY (and possibly other sources such as UN reports, NIOD report and IWPR) as a source. However, I don't think we need to use its paraphrase entire sections of the Krstic judgement to avoid controversy. It shouldn't be that difficult to summarize it.
• I agree that we should try to take a comprehensive approach, rather than taking it one section at a time. Outline what the sections should, their approximate length and then apportion responsibility to the various editors for writing these sections.
• I absolutely agree that we should avoid selective or misleading summarization, since that is precisely my fear about your (and certain other persons) edits.
• The main reasons that the article has grown so long is (1) because it was very easy to simply copy entire sections of text from the ICTY judgement against Krstic rather than summarizing it and (2) because have added long texts about their special detail of interest.

Osli73 11:21, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Do we need the full ICTY Statement in the Intro?

The intro already describes the atrocity fairly fully, and states that two seperate independent agencies define the event as a genocide. The whole point of the intro is that readers can gain a succinct idea about the event. Adding the quote only detracts from readability. Djma12 ^(talk) 23:18, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Djma12, this issue has been discussed before. The reason for keeping the full quote is that it resolves the central controversy that bedevils this article. It sums up beyond denial and misrepresentation the legal finding that genocide was perpetrated at Srebrenica, clearly, specifically and forcefully. Isee you have just gone ahead and deleted the text. This is a pattern of arbnitrary action that we're familiar with from Osli73. This is unacceptable. Please revert all your changes until they have been adequately discussed. --Opbeith 00:09, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Djma12, saying the quote only detracts from readibility is an overstatement. In fact, it very clearly and succinctly states what exactly happened and provides context. Fairview360 00:12, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

This is actually one of the better quotes (there are other, longer quotes of more dubious value to the article). However, it should be quite enough to state that the ICTY found that the Srebrenica massacre was an act of genocide and that the ICJ later confirmed this. The quote really just reinforces that. I would prefer to include info in the intro about where and how the massacre took place. Cheers Osli73 00:18, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• Fair enough! Sorry if I stepped on some toes. Would it make more sense to place the statement about the UN Peacekeepers before the section about the event being qualified as Genocide, though? Best regards, Djma12 ^(talk) 00:21, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

My edits (Djma12)

I am currently undertaking a number of ambitious edits to this article. My goal is simple: organize the article so that even a school child researching this atrocity can understand it, but provide enough internal wiki-links so that the dedicated researcher can get more info when needed. I am not trying to hide any information about this atrocity. However, by trying to include everything in one article, I feel that we actually discourage readers from learning about this event.

Please voice your concerns with my edits here.

Best regards, Djma12 ^(talk) 23:32, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Djma12, I object very strongly to your talking arbitrary action before proposed changes have been adequately discussed. This is behaviour that we're only too familiar with here and is unacceptable. --Opbeith 00:11, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• If you find the edit unacceptable, please feel free to revert. I am merely following WP:BOLD on something I feel would improve the article. I feel this discussion, even though difficult, should be undertaken. Best regards, Djma12 ^(talk) 00:15, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• Please note, I have not removed any information. Information has merely been organized into a sub-article which I feel improves readability. As stated before, I appreciate outside input on whether this is appropriate. Djma12 ^(talk) 00:16, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Djma12, at first I thought you had simply deleted information and then saw that you added a link under mass executions. What I would suggest is not reducing all of that text to one link, but rather a paragraph with several linked words. Otherwise, it does obscure this description of what happened. One paragraph could refer to the specific locations or dates of the massacres with each word linked to the longer description in the sub-article. Fairview360 00:27, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I like your suggestion. We could keep the link, and have several linked words. That way, no one gets lost. Any idea where in the paragraph would be good for an internal wiki-link? Djma12 ^(talk) 00:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Djma12, I notice that you've added additional information to the sub-article to the effect that an estimated 6000 persons were killed in the mass executions. Can you confirm your source? This is of course the problem with creating sub-articles. It makes it a lot easier for information that was previously part of the main article to be altered without this being apparent to the general body of contributors. This is arbitrary action and I disagree with it. It's not good enough simply to suggest reverting. Reverting of wilful interventions has triggered "edit wars" here in the past. Reverting also tends to lead to confusion when changes in the article that are not the target of the reversion get lost in the process. Please desist. Discussion is the first step. --Opbeith 00:40, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• Fair enough, but do you have any proposals for improving readability? Instead of complaining about an imperfect solution, let's work on making a better one? Djma12 ^(talk) 00:52, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• Djma12, Opbeith is not complaining. He is rightly asking you to provide a source. Where did you get the number of 6000? If you ad lib the number of innocent people killed, you're are going to lose credibility rather quickly. I strongly suggest that you give Opbeith an explanation, not characterize him as a complainer. In fact, he is one of the few editors here who takes the time to give full explanations for his edits and his opinions. Fairview360 01:07, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• I agree. I have removed the statement pending citation. However, does anyone have suggestions for readability? All I get are statements on why it's too hard to do. Surely people don't believe that the article in its current form is well-organized. Please people, I'm trying to work with you but all I get is derision. Djma12 ^(talk) 01:16, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I am not giving you derision, I am asking you a question. Where did you get the number 6000? By the way, thank you for cleaning up the redundant footnote in the introduction and reformatting. Fairview360 01:29, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

6000 per the exhumed burial number later in the article. But I agree that it should be removed until more definitive citations can be arrived at. I don't feign to have as much expertise as you guys have on the subject. I merely see my role as someone who cleans up the article for clearer readability. Djma12 ^(talk) 01:31, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Djma12, the list of people missing or killed in Srebrenica compiled by the Federal Commission of Missing Persons so far includes 8,373 names. This is very well documented. Hence, there appears to be general agreement among the editors that it is accurate to say an estimated 8000 were killed during the Srebrenica Massacre. Fairview360 01:47, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. The corresponding article is now being edited to reflect that. Djma12 ^(talk) 01:50, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Fairview360 put this suggestion on my talk page. Would people prefer this to the single sub-article?

With that said, as you've suggested, each specific massacre could be put in a sub-article, but I believe it must be done in a way that does not obscure them. Hence, I do not agree with taking out 6 to 10 paragraphs and replacing it with just one link. Rather reduce it to a few sentences with reference to each massacre with each reference linked to the sub-article. Fairview360 00:37, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Djma12 ^(talk) 00:48, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that we should stick to the "estimated 8000" figure to avoid confusing readers. This will be especially important if certain sections are moved to separate articles. However, since there are different numbers for "identified" and "unidentified" bodies, "estimated killed" and "killed and missing" I think it would be a good idea to include a paragraph on this somwhere in the article instead of spreading out the info in various sections. Osli73 09:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Djma12, I apologise if you think I was deriding your efforts, that wasn't my intention. But you don't seem to have sufficient awareness of the underlying issues to be proceeding with large scale changes without consulting more widely. For example you need to understand that the number of victims is one of the key areas of dispute between people who accept that the massacre was genocide and the people who in spite of legal findings still seek to minimise and excuse what happened. However well-intentioned efforts to render the article readable by a schoolkid might be, they are liable to fuel controversy and unresolved disputes. Regrettably I have to say that there are many articles in Wikipedia that no-one, let alone a school-child, should be reading without an informed perspective. These are areas where "the truth" is, rightly or wrongly, hotly disputed and unless you know the map of the minefield you risk making the situation worse rather than better. --Opbeith 00:19, 20 March 2007 (UTC) 10:14, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• My apologies if the edits were too abrupt -- my intention was simply to encourage a conversation on how to increase the article's readability. Looks like I've not only stirred that up that discussion, but also personal attacks concerning sock-puppetry... Seriously, will some one actually work with me on improving the article's architecture? I'm starting to feel as if an Rfc might be required. Djma12 ^(talk) 19:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Djma12 and others, considering that the article is so conflict ridden, in my opinion, any revision of the article structure and text would have to be based on some type of consensus/compromise and an acceptance by the majority of editors certain basic rules/principles. I've suggested this before but, unfortunately, none of the 'Bosniak' editors (sorry for the clumsy grouping, but it's the best I could think of at the moment, of course this is not a 100% homogenous group) have shown any interest. I can only see two reasons for this lack of interest: (1) they're happy with the status quoe and/or (2) they fear that rewriting and reducing the lenght of the article will present a view of the massacre not to their liking. I'm sure something could be done to assuage at least point no. 2. Otherwise, I think that Rfc might be the best route forward, though I would prefer A Fresh Start. Regards Osli73 20:40, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Osli73, you know very well what the third possible explanation is - that the pattern of your previous interventions does not inspire trust. Go back to my previous dealings with you and in particular the results of my checking your misleading use of sources. It's your determination to press ahead with an agenda of your own under cover of that veneer of cooperation that has been the cause of a lot of conflict here. --Opbeith 00:35, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Osli73, KarlXII, Djma12

I have conducted an analysis of Osli73, KarlXII, and Djma12's edit histories, and unfortunately, they could all be the same person. (We already know that Osli73 and KarlXII are one person.)

It was a little strange that someone allegedly entirely new to the article would be so bold in making wholesale edits without any attempt to create consensus first.

I have reverted the article back to before Djma12's edits and hereby call upon Djma12 to at least attempt establishing general agreement before making significant edits. Fairview360 13:21, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Fairview360, kindly take the time to actually examine edit histories before making serious allegations. Defaming editors simply because they disagree with you violates WP:CIVIL, and is quite frankly beneath you.

• Djma12 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Osli73 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• KarlXII (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Djma12 ^(talk) 19:06, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I did. And rather than seeing any understanding from you about past experiences at this article which would naturally spawn such suspicions, I see the same self-righteous posturing exhibited by KarlXII. In any case, you are not be rejected outright. Rather you are being asked to attempt general agreement before engaging in wholesale edits. Fairview360 21:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that discussion is invaluable before making edits, but let's be clear. I started entertaining the concept of a sub-article in the discussion page a full day before I edited. The consensus I received was that it was a good idea but difficult, therefore no one was willing to work with me on it (except Osli.) If you'll recall, I even requested your help before editing. Fairview, you do not have ownership of this article. I am willing to discuss and work with you out of respect and professionalism, but I do not need your approval for edits, especially if you will simply be abusive. Djma12 ^(talk) 19:11, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for making the observation that no one editor has ownership of this article. Fairview360 21:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

One full day? You waited one full day and then declared an alleged consensus for you to move forward with wholesale edits? An alternative way for you to establish consensus would be to state exactly what you are proposing and then solicit the feedback of the most engaged editors of this article. That might take a little bit more than one full day. Fairview360 21:35, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing inherently abusive about stating the possibility that you are a sockpuppet of Osli73. When it was stated the KarlXII might be a sockpuppet of Osli73, was that inherently abusive? How could it be abusive when it turned out to be a simple statement of fact? Presuming that you are not a sockpuppet, rather than self-righteous posturing and presenting yourself as the victim of alleged abuse -- something rather Osli-esque -- why not just take it in stride and keep moving forward? The invitation to attempt genuine consensus building is still there. You might also want to spend some time looking at KarlXII's behavior (Osli73's behavior) and then you might see why some here are understandably skeptical. Fairview360 21:44, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't you be offended if people went around claiming that you and Opbeith were sock-puppets just b/c you share similar edits? I've been called many a strange name in wiki before, but this accusation is a first. Djma12 ^(talk) 23:00, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

No. I have been accused of being a sockpuppet before. I found it amusing. I was waiting to find out who the editor thought I really was, but he/she never followed through with the specifics. Given the amount of sockpuppetry in wikipedia, I don't think anyone should be surprised by people having their suspicions. For the record, I am still not convinced that you are not Osli73, but will continue dialoguing with you. You may notice that I no longer address Osli directly since I believe good faith discussions with him are not possible. Hence, I am implicitly giving you (Djma12) the benefit of the doubt. Fairview360 00:25, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Djma12, For somebody who turns up with little knowledge of the subject but simply expressing a well-intentioned desire to help make the article more accessible, you seem to have a rather pressing need to make large scale changes without much concern for the views of other people who've been involved here over time and have some knowledge of the issues. You say "I agree that discussion is invaluable before making edits, but let's be clear. I started entertaining the concept of a sub-article in the discussion page a full day before I edited. The consensus I received was that it was a good idea but difficult, therefore no one was willing to work with me on it (except Osli.) If you'll recall, I even requested your help before editing. Fairview, you do not have ownership of this article. I am willing to discuss and work with you out of respect and professionalism, but I do not need your approval for edits, especially if you will simply be abusive." You decided a full day was long enough to allow everyone here the time they needed to agree or disagree with you. You didn't secure a consensus, you had a few cautious comments.

If you really are interested in this article you must have looked back over previous discussions on this page and seen that quite a few other people might have wanted to have an input before you embarked on drastic action. Didn't that give you cause to think that you should act with a little less haste and a little more restraint? Instead you decided that other people's hesitation about working with you was reason enough to proceed without delay.

You comment on my edits and Fairview360's edits as if you're familiar with them. One moment you seem quite innocent and the next you come across as knowing rather more than might be expected of a well-meaning ingenu. You must surely be familiar with the controversy aroused by Osli73's precipitate and wilful interventions. But you follow in his footsteps. So, a simple question Djma12 - is Fairview360 mistaken or is there a relationship between you and Osli73? --Opbeith 00:15, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

My first interaction with Osli was when he wrote me on my discussion page back in Feb. 27, 07, during my first attempts to edit on the page. I have had minimal contact with him since. If you still feel suspicious about my identity, I urge you to have an admin perform an IP check -- I would have no objection.

As for my suggestions and edits, please note that I started a similar discussion thread concerning sub-articling on the Iran page. Similarly, I was accused of pushing "american imperialism" at the time by some of those editors. Djma12 ^(talk) 02:31, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Sub-article format

(Takes deep breath...) Alright, would anyone like to suggest how/if sub-articles might improve the architechture of this article? Djma12 ^(talk) 22:58, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I suggest going with the initiative of creating a sub-article about the specific massacres but not reduce the entire section to just one link. Rather, write a paragraph that clearly describes the locations and dates with links to the sub-article. Then the reader would see the sequence of events, but the details of said events would be in a sub-article thereby reducing the overall length of the article without obscuring the events themselves. Fairview360 01:08, 20 March 2007 (UTC)