Talk:Scandinavia

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Maitch (talk | contribs) at 13:45, 3 April 2006 (poll). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Done yet?

As someone who's never edited this particular article.. Are you guys done yet? The above discussion is long, tedious, and largely irrelevant. The only thing relevant is that in English, the term "Scandinavia" is both used to refer to Denmark-Norway-Sweden and in a broader sense that encompasses Finland and Iceland. Any number of dictionaries will tell you that, and dictionaries are written to reflect actual usage, not political or cultural history.

The purpose of the article and page are not to determine what the "correct" usage of the term is. It is to define and explain the existing usages. That means both explaining the common history and culture of D-N-S but also how Finland and Iceland fit into this. Because that's what people are referring to when they say "Scandinavian" in English. --BluePlatypus 01:47, 22 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Front material

It seems pretty well agreed that the front material, even though rather well written, is factually inadequate. I note especially mention of a dialect continuum. But Finnish and Lapp are in no way continuous with the Nordic languages, not even being in the same group. As for the ties, well, that same paragraph indicates the ties are no closer than any other nations at peace. Moreover there seems to be a taboo on the Russians, even though Murmansk is pretty close to the Norwegian border. The Russians aren't in the hypothetical continuum, either.

My take on the commentary is that people want to see some recognition of the fact that "Scandinavia" is a term with many meanings. The current write-up presents it more unified and monolithic than it is. So, I am going to jump in here and make it more as it is. I know this is a controversial topic. Maybe I will regret getting involved. But, the tags indicate some dissatisfaction and somebody has to do it. If you think you can do better, go for it! I for one don't mind at all, as long as you are not a vandal.Dave 14:17, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

After the discussion on my talk page, I did a major rewrite of the front material. After the user discussion I learned from the article Scandinavian Peninsula that it only consists of Norway and Sweden. If Finland is included it is called Fennoscandinavia. I guess I didn't pay attention in that geography lesson. I believe it to be the most fair description based on what a supermajority might define it as. Any comments? --Maitch 20:05, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Woah, what a major overhaul this article has undergone! Nice to see that someone felt like being bold and energetic enough to freshen things up. Some problematic phrases remain or have been (re)inserted concerning what the toponym in question means, and to whom. If you take a gander at the disambiguation page and the archived discussion, two to three fairly clear definitions will crystalize:
My impression is that definitions 2a and 2b are hardly ever applied within the Nordic societies themselves, except by tourists and other visitors to the region (especially 2a). Definition 1 is predominant within the Nordic countries.
While the initiative is commendable, the current introduction is far too clumsy and insecure of itself and uses far too many words to briefly state what the rest of article is supposed to expand on. My recommendation is to shorten to introduction to just a handful of sentences that give definitions 1, 2a and 2b above (see more tips on article structure here and here). Cheers and good luck. :) // Big Adamsky • BA's talk page 22:06, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm against Scandinavia=2a or 2b. I don't believe that we should write something that in my opion is very wrong. The Nordic region is the correct term for that. --Maitch 18:49, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Maitch, the argument in favour of including the wider definition is the fact that some English speakers will use the terms Scandinavia and Nordic region interchangeably, especially English speakers outside Europe. This is the English Wikipedia, which is the sole justification for adding the definition equating these two regions. The indigenous Nordic definition is also used by English speakers. // Big Adamsky • BA's talk page 20:53, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, my opion is that we shouldn't teach things that is wrong, and I'm not going to change it. I wouldn't add this unless there is a supermajority for it. Maybe we should start a poll. --Maitch 21:30, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]


In general Scandinavia would be the 3 contries consisting of Denmark Sweden and Norway. Simply because those three contries share language base. Which means that they understand eachother despite the contries. People from Finland does not share this communication language with the Scandinavia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.83.190.130 (talk • contribs)

Hey presto, I have now changed the lead as per my own recommendations above and in accordance with the guidelines cited. I strongly advise against having identical content in the articles on Scandinavia and the Nordic countries, nor would I approve of merging the two articles. // Big Adamsky • BA's talk page 07:06, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, now we are back to square one. The reason for my (far from perfect) version was that to many English speaking users objected to not having Finland as a part of Scandinavia. As much as I agree with the your version it doesn't really solve the dispute. --Maitch 13:17, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
But it is at least accurate now, since Finland isn't actually part of Scandinavia... CLW
We are going in circles. I think the only way to get out this dispute is by a poll. --Maitch 13:30, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I do think that the latest version works very well - it accurately defines Scandinavia as Sweden, Denmark and Norway, but also states extremely prominently (i.e. in the second sentence) that many also use the term to describe what is more accurately the Nordic region. Surely you can't ask for more than that? CLW 13:40, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Map requested

I have put up a request for a map of Scandinavia. The current introduction is not acceptable, as it fails to distinguish between the concise native usage and alternative foreign understandings. In other words, it does not mention the fact that none of the Nordic countries and territories use the word "Scandinavia" to mean anything else than the three monarchies (even though this usage may be encountered in the English language even in Nordic sources). Also, the claim advanced here that the Finns and the Icelandes "want" to be part of Scandinavia (implying that the Scandinavians proper "won't let them"), appears to be unfounded and unsourced, as yet. Therefore, the intro needs to be specific about the expanded usage being associated with speakers of English and other languages (which seems reasonable enough, seeing as this is the English WP). I will try to commission one of our fine amateur cartographers to design a map similar to the ones at Central Africa and Central Asia. I suggest three colours:

  • dark hue = the intra-Nordic usage: the three monarchies
  • medium hue = the extended usage: Nordic region, except Greenland and Svalbard
  • light hue = the maximal extent: synonymous with the entire Nordic region

Ideas? Suggestions? // Big Adamsky • BA's talk page 18:21, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Poll: What is Scandinavia

After a lot of debate (see archive 3) I think the only way to find a consensus is by voting. The issue is what the article should describe Scandinavia as.

Please sign your name using four tildes (~~~~) under the position you support, preferably adding a brief comment. If you are happy with more than one possibility, you may wish to sign your names to more than one place. Extended commentary should be placed below, in the section marked "Discussion", though brief commentary can be interspersed.

  • A: Denmark (excluding autonomous regions), continental Norway, and Sweden
    1. This is what I believe is correct. --Maitch 13:45, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • B: Denmark (excluding autonomous regions), Finland, continental Norway, and Sweden
  • C: Denmark (excluding autonomous regions), Finland, Iceland, continental Norway, and Sweden
  • D: Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway, and Sweden with all regions included
  • E: Use both A and B in the article
    1. This is my compromise. --Maitch 13:45, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • F: Use A, B, and C in the article
  • G: Use A, B, C, and D in the article

Discussion

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