Talk:Overseas Chinese

Indonesia data

The indonesian data doesn't match with the one from the indonesian chinese page.

Multiple links to Chinese WP

It's interesting that there are two links to the Chinese wikipedia: zh:華僑 zh:华侨. Do they mean different things? -- Error

華僑 was the original version in Traditional Chinese and it was the 1st zh interlanguage link added. A Simplified Chinese version (华侨) was made using MS Word auto-convert later. The Simplified link was added in an attempt to try if the different versions of the same zh link can be differentiated. Apparently, it can not.

--Menchi 02:00 30 Jun 2003 (UTC)

With the new zh-tw:華僑 and zh-cn:华侨 links, the links are labelled differently now as: 中文(繁体) (Traditional Chinese) | 中文(简体) (Simplified Chinese). --Menchi 02:18, 13 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Religion

Can something be said about their religions? Are conversions to forms of Christianism significant? -- Error 05:08 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

ROC

Removed ...

The R.O.C. continues to allow legislative representation to overseas Chinese, a seat which has remained controversial as many of the voting members of the American overseas Chinese communities were supporting the KMT military dictatorship while enjoying the freedoms of America.

Actually no. The overseas Chinese seats in the Legislative Yuan are not controversial on Taiwan. The seats are distributed among the parties based on their vote totals in Taiwan and then the parties hand them out to their supporters among overseas Chinese. Also, the DPP gets as much support from overseas Chinese as the pan-blue coalition. The KMT really doesn't get that much support from overseas Chinese anymore. --User:Roadrunner

The numbers are from?

The articles give both a 60 million and a 33,720,000 number. What's up with that? - Jerryseinfeld 19:38, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It depends on how you count the people of Taiwan (23 million), Hong Kong (7 million) and Macau (0.5 million). If you define Overseas Chinese as all Chinese outside mainland China, then you get a total of about 60 million. However if you classify them as "Offshore Chinese" then you get 33 million. (Note that these numbers don't always match up. Estimating Chinese in Southeast Asian countries, particularly Thailand, is difficult at best.) --Constrainer 19:01, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

japan and korea

ive noticed something very strange. chinese go everywhere. indonesia, vietnam, thailand, singapore, cambodia, philipines, cuba, even mauritius! however, there is no mention of chinese in korea or japan. i find this very strange because many japanese and most koreans have chinese surnames. also, japanese and koreans writing system is based on chinese, so i find it very hard to believe that there arent a ton of chinese in those countries. how can these countries that show no signs of chinese culture within their own culture, such as thailand, singapore, cambodia, philipines, mauritius have significant chinese populations, while japan and korea who have embraced everything chinese from language to religion, to clothing, to architechture not have a sizable chinese population?

Chinese are the second-largest minority group in Japan, after Koreans. As for Korea, it depends on what you mean by Chinese. If you mean Han Chinese, then a lot of them left after the Korean War because of discrimination and lack of economic oppurtunity. If you mean Chinese citizens, then there's a large population of Korean Chinese (chaoxianzu) living and working in South Korea. Unlike other overseas Koreans, they aren't automatically granted citizenship (probably in the interests of good relations with China), so they're still PRC nationals.--Yuje 06:05, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

still however, if you compare the chinese populations in japan vs thailand or indonesia, its highly insignificant.
Thailand Thai Chinese 7.3 million

Indonesia Indonesian Chinese 7.3 million

Japan 175,000

華僑 vs 華裔

I have changed the text explaining the difference. There is a difference, but it was not the right difference that's written there.

華僑 literally means a Chinese person (華人) "living as a sojourner in a foreign country" (僑居). It is probably right in saying that the person must be born in China; a person born outside China probably won't consider his/her place of birth as a foreign country.

However, the word 華裔 does not imply that the person is born outside China; This is at least the case in Canada here. We have previously used the term "Canadian Chinese" (加藉華人, stressing Chinese ethnicity, then Canadian citizenship), but now the term "Chinese Canadian" (華裔加人, stressing Canadian nationality, then Chinese ancestry) is preferred, whether or not the person in question is born in or outside China. The word 裔 literally means "descendant(s)" so 華裔 simply means "descendants of Chinese people". —Wing 00:23, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Latin America and South America

How come the statistics box doesn't contain the number of ethnic Chinese living in Latin America and South America? theboogeyman 22:20, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't know. But I do know that adding the info would be a great little project. Wanna help? Be bold! Cheers, -Willmcw 21:19, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I added Brazil and Panama into the statistics box. Those were the only two countries I could find that had a significant population of Chinese in Latin and South America. If there is another country that anyone else knows about, please add it! Thanks! --theboogeyman 22:48, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I've read that there are about 60,000 ethnic Chinese living in Argentina (look at http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentinos-asi%C3%A1ticos). I can't tell if the number is accurate or not. gus8591 14:48, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Brazil has 200,000 ethnic Chinese (look at http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/colunas/retratosdachina/chineses_no_brasil.shtml)

England vs the UK

Many people from the New Territories in Hong Kong were chosen to earn a better living in England and Holland in the post-war period.

(?) Do you mean England or the whole UK? See British Isles (terminology) if you are not sure.

Did the Chinese people moved to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland?

(Comment left by 202.40.139.165 on main article. Moved to discussion page by Yuje.)

Can anyone elaborate on this comment? What is meant by "were chosen"? Who chose these people? When did this happen? Also, can anyone cite any sources for this information? - HongQiGong.

Chinese people commonly make the mistake of using "England" to refer to the whole UK and "Holland" to refer to the Netherlands. This is because the common Chinese terms for these places (yinguo, helan) are derived from these names.--Jiang 03:39, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

To be honest, I suggest that this sentence be deleted from the article unless somebody comes up with a source of information and/or provide a bit of elaboration. The sentence is a little confusing by itself. Hong Qi Gong 04:20, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

It's probably bad English, they were not "chosen". Many people from the New Territories in Hong Kong did emigrate in the UK in the post-war period. I have corrected the sentence.LDHan 17:48, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Australian figures do not match

The number of ethnic chinese in the Chinese Australian article does not match the table. I also found that the figure from the article came from the 2001 Census so can't understand how the figure in the table is not only lower but is said to be from 2003 when the population would have grown since then.

Typical Overseas Chinese houses

Do we really need pictures of them, especially more than one picture of them? Hong Qi Gong 15:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Overseas chinese is hardworking and dicipline, and they got money by working very hard, so they can built houses, large houses. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hensu75 (talk • contribs) 15:31, 11 June 2006.

Is there really anything special about the "Typical Overseas Chinese house" ? There are overseas Chinese in SE asia, N. America, Europe etc, so what's "typical"? The photos are mostly pointless, they don't tell us anything, except that there are some who are very rich, and some who are well off. LDHan 17:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

In addition, I dispute the contention that they're "typical". Not all overseas Chinese are well off and can afford such houses. —Umofomia 21:37, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

So should we get rid of those pictures? Hong Qi Gong 17:15, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the pictures from the article. The premise of a "typical overseas Chinese house" is ridiculous, which is proven by that each of the three images depicted a different style of architecture. In addition I removed the photo of "Overseas Chinese in New Zealand"—having photos of some Chinese people adds nothing to this article, which is to say nothing of the fact that the image is so small, the presence of humans can barely be discerned. Such is also true of the other three images, where the features of the image are eclipsed by one's wondering why they were uploaded so small. –ArmadniGeneral (talk • contribs) 06:51, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Source for population numbers

What sources have we been using for the population numbers that are listed at the bottom of the article? Hong Qi Gong 14:56, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I think without the source(s) of the figures, the changes to the numbers should be reverted. I suspect vandalism by user:Hensu75, eg the figure for the UK according to the 2001 census is 247,403, it has been changed to 647,403. LDHan 16:54, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Where do the original numbers from the other entries come from? Only the UK entry actually links to the source of its number. None of the other entries do, and they don't match the numbers from this, which is linked in the External links section. Hong Qi Gong 17:15, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

definition of "Overseas Chinese"

Please stop editing or adding texts to say that Chinese people in continental Asia are not or may not be considered "Overseas Chinese". The very definition of "Overseas Chinese" is Chinese people living outside the Greater China region. So while it may be a misnomer, Chinese people living in continental Asia outside of the Greater China region are, in fact, Overseas Chinese. Hong Qi Gong 06:53, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Let us be democratic about this. You are free to express your view and nobody asked you to to stop editing or changing what others wrote. The terms "Chinese", "overseas", etc. are ambiguous and it is natural that people may have different views. You may not like or agree with everything written here, and nobody is the absolute authority. I think the former version was better and more accurate, but would welcome a debate (on the talk pages) if you insist on changing the text again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.252.4.21 (talk • contribs) 2006-06-17 03:58:14 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a democracy. And the term "Overseas Chinese" is a commonly used academic term to refer to Chinese people outside the Greater China region. There are plenty of sources to show that.([1][2][3] and many many more) If you want to say that it sometimes does not refer to Chinese people living in continental Asia, you'd have to show some sources that say this. Otherwise you're violating Wikipedia:No original research if no reliable source actually say this. Hong Qi Gong 15:01, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

海外華人

The correct term in Chinese is haiwai huaren. But there is no need to even have the Chinese term here in the English encyclopedia. Just link with interwiki/interlanguage links if you want. And we should be democratic in respecting each other's views, even if as Hongqigong claims, wikipedia is not a democracy.

Ethnic minorities of China in overseas countries

Overseas Chinese are not limited to ethnic Chinese populations, but rather include also the diaspora of the entire Chinese nation (Zhonghua minzu). For example, ethnic Korean minorities from China who are living in South Korea today are often included in calculations of overseas Chinese, because these ethnic Koreans also identify themselves as part of the Chinese nation (zhonghua minzu). Similarly this also applies to Nusantara Chinese Peranakans in South East Asia.

Is this really true? I don't see Tibetan refugees in Dharamsala counted in the figure of overseas Chinese in India, for example. Nor are they commonly (ever?) referred to as such. Same goes for Uyghurs in Turkey, Mongolians from Inner Mongolia who moved to Outer Mongolia, etc. Even Dungan (Hui in Central Asia) are not usually seen as overseas Chinese, though they still speak a Sinitic language. And "Nusantara Chinese Peranakan" (I'm guessing this just means Peranakan --- nusantara is a BM/BI word meaning "the Malay archipelago") are actually descendants of ethnic Chinese, so they don't belong in that paragraph. cab 14:26, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

The problem is "Chinese" can mean different things, in English "Overseas Chinese" usually means "Overseas Han Chinese". Perhaps "Chinese" in the sense of "Chinese citizen" is used as part of the justification that China is a multi-ethnic state. I'm not sure that ethnic Koreans (from China) do identify themselves as part of the Chinese nation (zhonghua minzu). LDHan 15:55, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

It probably depends on who you ask. I don't remember the books or articles I've read on overseas Chinese including anyone but Han Chinese, but that is not to say that sometimes ethnic minorities in China living overseas are not also counted. Maybe this is what the Chinese government does? At any rate, I've put a couple of {{fact}} tags in that section. --- Hong Qi Gong 16:24, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

True, but at the same time, we have to consider the fact that many of these "Overseas Chinese" are either self-identified as "Chinese" or are "classified" as such by the receiving state (with or without their consent). That was what the above paragraph is trying to say I suppose, and I do sense that it is an observation which is not meant to be strictly applied in all cases.--Huaiwei 11:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think such a statement can be made without qualification. Although I know some Manchus who do consider themselves Chinese, I also know a Mein/Yao (whose grandparents were from China) who don't, and I bet a lot of Tibetans and Uighurs don't consider themselves Overseas Chinese. --Yuje 05:15, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

As I have already said, "it is an observation which is not meant to be strictly applied in all cases". I speak mainly from the Southeast Asian perspective, where the majority of "ethnic Chinese" are either self-identified or are identified by the state. And I say "Many", because the vast majority of Overseas Chinese has been and continue to reside in the Southeast Asian region. Individual exceptions dosent negate the overall trend. Anyhow, the fact that a few non-Hans dont consider themselves as Chinese while overseas still dosent negate the statement, does it?--Huaiwei 06:05, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

My reply was directed at the original comment, (of all ethnic groups in China classified as Overseas Chinese), not at yours. --Yuje 06:11, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Then indent your reply properly, as I have just done for you. You arent new to wikipedia.--Huaiwei 09:23, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

chinese diaspora

I propose to reverse the article redirects so the main article is 'Chinese Diaspora' and this article would redirect to that article. I would move the contents of this article to 'Chinese Diaspora'. This would make the Chinese articles match most/all other WP diaspora articles. Your thoughts or questions? Thanks Hmains 04:54, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I think "Overseas Chinese" is used much more often, both formally and informally. LDHan 14:03, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, "Overseas Chinese" is a lot more common. Please don't make such a disruptive mass move of all dozens of pages from Category:Overseas Chinese to Category:Chinese diaspora unilaterally. --Yuje 04:08, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Most, if not all of the research done on the Chinese residing outside of China, HK, Taiwan, etc is called "Overseas Chinese" research. Not "Chinese Diaspora" research. I object to it being changed to Chinese Diaspora. -- Montie5 08:53, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

"Overseas Chinese" is the more commonly used term. --- Hong Qi Gong 14:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

ethnic chinese

This article is NOT a correct reference to link to when referring to ALL Chinese people. This ONLY pertains to Chinese people who are not living in China. Thanks Hmains 02:58, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

"Ethnic Chinese" is a term used in academic literature and news media to refer to Overseas Chinese. This aligns with other uses like Ethnic German. There is no need to call Xyz people living in their country of origin "ethnic Xyzian"; you just call them Xyzian. If someone is using the phrasing "ethnic Chinese" to mean something else like Han Chinese or Zhonghua Minzu, their writing should be reworded. When I cleaned out the links to Ethnic Chinese (as per wiki policy since it is a redirect), virtually all of them meant Overseas Chinese anyway, except for the uses on Hong Kong pages, and one case where it meant both Chinese overseas and Chinese in the mainland. cab 07:56, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

After looking at your recent edits, I finally get what you're actually driving at. But many of the pages you are going around to change to point to China are actually talking specifically about Chinese living overseas, not all Chinese, and not Han Chinese, e.g. Filipino Mestizo. cab 08:06, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Zhenghe(鄭和)(Hui ethnic )is overseas Chinese

Zheng He is a famous overseas Chinese, but he is a Hui people not Han Chinese. Overseas Chinese doesn't only refer to overseas Han Chinese. Edipedia 19:52, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, Hui Chinese are genetically the same as Han Chinese. Secondly, Zheng He was an explorer and an admiral, but he didn't settle down to live outside of China, so he's not an Overseas Chinese, regardless of the fact that he was Muslim or Hui. --- Hong Qi Gong 20:32, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Hui ethnic is not genetically the same as Han Chinese. They are mainly Mongols and Turkic. You can see this in the Chinese Wiki zh:回族. Otherwise why bother to make them an ethnic minority. Zheng He did live outside China and temporarily settled down in several places overseas. Only a racist can say that overseas Chinese only refers to Han Chinese. Edipedia 20:48, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Hui Chinese were mainly Mongol and Turkic... over a thousand years ago. There's been about a thousand years of intermarrying with Han Chinese. They are basically Han Chinese who are Muslim.

And besides, you've contradicted yourself already. Zheng He temporarily settled down in several places overseas. The point is that he did not move to a place overseas and settle down, and call that place home. --- Hong Qi Gong 21:34, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

There is another more commonly used phrase "海外華人" for overseas Chinese. "海外華人" doesn't need to live permanently outside China. Edipedia 21:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

華僑 is the common term used for Overseas Chinese. There's a ton of academic work concerning Overseas Chinese and their communities, and they all refer to people who live permanently outside of China. Please do not insert your original research and please do not change the very definition of what Overseas Chinese means. --- Hong Qi Gong 21:44, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean original work? Don't you agree that "海外華人" refers to overseas Chinese? Edipedia 21:46, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

You are trying to say that Overseas Chinese translate to 海外華人, and that 海外華人 do not live permanently outside of China. However, the definition of Overseas Chinese would necessitate that they live permanently outside of China. So 海外華人 would be the wrong translation then. --- Hong Qi Gong 21:47, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Where did you get the idea that overseas Chinese need to permanently live outside China? "海外華人" refer to overseas Chinese who either permanently or temporarily live outside China. The thing is that overseas Chinese are not only Han Chinese but also other Chinese minorities overseas. This is indicated in the terminology section of this article. You're contradicting yourself. Edipedia 21:54, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I actually disagree with that. I've never read of anybody but Han Chinese referred to as Overseas Chinese. But at any rate, just don't change the translation to 海外華人 or edit the article to say that they do not need to live permanently outside of China to be Overseas Chinese. There're a ton of research done on Overseas Chinese, and you changing the translation or definition of it would violate Wikipedia:No original research. Thank you. --- Hong Qi Gong 21:58, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Your logic is just wrong. There are a lot of things you don't know or heard of. You can't make judgement completely on your own experience. Chinese people temporarily living outside China qualify most as overseas Chinese (海外華人). Nobody considers Lucy Liu, Michelle Kwan overseas Chinese. At least, people consider them American citizens first. So citizenship matters more. Technically speaking, Zheng He(鄭和) is overseas Chinese. Overseas Chinese are not just Han Chinese. Edipedia 14:57, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

No, Zheng He is not Overseas Chinese not because he was not Han Chinese. But because he never settled permanently outside of China. Please read some studies on Overseas Chinese. He was an explorer and a traveller. He was not an Overseas Chinese. --- Hong Qi Gong 15:49, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, he is used as model overseas Chinese in the article. You are making stories yourself. As I explained above, those Chiense people living temporily outside China qualify as overseas Chinese most. Edipedia 15:52, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Zheng He did not emigrate. He travelled and explored. There's a big difference. --- Hong Qi Gong 15:55, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Even if Zheng He is not overseas Chinese. That still does not justify your editing. Edipedia 15:57, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I'll conceed that whether or not Overseas Chinese only refers to Han Chinese is disputable. However, 華僑 is a much more common term than 海外華人. --- Hong Qi Gong 16:00, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

So what about 华人？

In the PRC at least, there are three terms: 华侨 for "Chinese people" living overseas. In the past, this meant Chinese people who held Chinese citizenship while residing on a long-term basis overseas. This is relatively rare now and so the term also extends to any Chinese person living overseas. 华裔 means a "descendant of Chinese". Usually this means someone born overseas, but descendant from Chinese parents or ancestors. 华人 is a more general term that means any Chinese person, and 海外华人 (I think) specifically means "Chinese person(s) living overseas", without making any assumptions on their citizenship status or place of birth. Thus, for example, in official usage the Chinese government always refers to 华人华侨, which I guess means "foreign nationals who are Chinese, and Chinese nationals living overseas".

I'm raising this point because the article deals comprehensively with many terms, even mentioning rare terms like 华胞 (who on earth says that...), yet neglects 华人 or 海外华人, which seems to be standard/official equivalent of the term "Overseas Chinese".

So, can any experts clarify the status of these terms? --Sumple (Talk) 07:30, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

"Chinese people", "descendant of Chinese", "foreign nationals who are Chinese": I assume "Chinese" here means "Han". The problem is many people also use "Chinese" to mean a citizen of China, including all the non-Han minorities. LDHan 10:03, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

No, "Chinese" here means 华 as in 中华 - as in Chinese, which is not the same as Han... There are plenty of people who are Chinese yet are not Han. --Sumple (Talk) 10:54, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Overseas Chinese=海外華人

The Chinese equivalent of Overseas Chinese is "海外華人". Other words are subsets of this word. Please see the Chinese version of this article. zh: 海外華人 Edipedia 16:14, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

"Pre-Overseas Chinese" section

As much as I think it is important to mention the term 唐人, I really have no idea what the purpose is of the following passage in the Pre-Overseas Chinese section:

Before the term Overseas Chinese was introduced, peoples of Imperial China that inhabited abroad were known as Tang Lang by Hokkien speakers or Tong Yan by Cantonese speakers (Chinese: 唐人). Modern Standard Mandarin was not the language in the old Imperial China, therefore it is not proper to read as Tang Ren.

It's not "proper" to pronounce it as "Tang Ren"? Doesn't that depend whether you're saying it in Mandarin or not? --- Hong Qi Gong 02:15, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

RE: I have removed 'proper' to make it proper. Anyway, I want to emphasize the old use of TangLang & TongYan, because the old folks in Nanyang did not use Tang-Ren. L joo 09:28, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Lol. In fact, it's not proper to call China "China", because people in China call it something else. Also, it's not proper to call "Mars" Mars, because Martians don't speak English. --Sumple (Talk) 04:09, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I stand corrected - see Marvin the Martian --Sumple (Talk) 04:45, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't forget Martian Manhunter. --- Hong Qi Gong 05:04, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Now, if only we could find Marvin Tangren, who would prove that Pre-Overseas Chinese (sic) actually did call themselves that ... —Nat Krause^(Talk!) 05:09, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Hahaha, the calling of China "China" started from a mistake pronunciation, the English-speakers got the idea 'Cina' from Indians (or probably others), and they start calling it "Chaai-Ner" "Chaai-Nees". According to Lynn Pan, the Spanish in Philippines met the Hokkien traders and they called them "Seng Li", (Seng Li=Doing Business, Chinese: 生意).

Anyway, it was translation. The Chinese today translate the name "Victoria" to "WeiDoLiYa", some translate it "Weiduolia" "Waitoliyeh", so which one is correct?

Later, all these terms, evolve, evolve and evolve into, "Chinese Overseas, Overseas Chinese, Chinese American, Nanyang Chinese, Malaysian Chinese, Singaporean Chinese, Huaren, etc, etc. L joo 09:01, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

The article is not so much on the term "Overseas Chinese" though. The concept of the "Overseas Chinese" started as soon as Chinese people started moving and settling abroad, and forming communities. If you don't mind, I would like to delete that section and move the content to the Terminology section. --- Hong Qi Gong 14:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with HongQiGong: the section seems to be more about terminology rather than concepts: A rose by any other name, etc., unless it's called crapweed. --Sumple (Talk) 14:46, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Re: I don't mind, please move to terminology. Btw, probably some misunderstoods, it was not 'that simple' (many things cannot open talk in public). The whole thing was in the past/present, highly sensitive issue, because the Overseas Chinese controlled too much of economy, and that's why very sensitive. Remember: China's viewpoint and Overseas's viewpoint are different. Probably the page has to involve the "华侨政策" & the old "郑和的国家观与华侨政策" and many other political stuffs. L joo 16:16, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

If you can provide some sources on the sensitive issue of using the term 唐人, I think that would be very helpful. Anyway, I'll move the content to the Terminology section later, unless someone else does it first. I need to edit it to make it fit into the Terminology section. --- Hong Qi Gong 16:44, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the section and moved the content to the Terminology section. I've also removed the Chinese terms in the intro of the article. We can just use the Terminology section for all the different Chinese terms. --- Hong Qi Gong 01:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

usage of 海外華人 and 華人

Yes, I know that 華人 says nothing about citizenship, but I think 海外華人 specifically is a term used by the PRC government for Chinese citizens living overseas. I couldn't find any sources for this though. Also, note that I'm not saying that the term is only used by the PRC government. --- Hong Qi Gong 03:21, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi HongQiGong, I'm pretty sure 海外華人 as used by the PRC government makes no assumptions on citizenship, because there is another term HuaQiao used by the PRC (sorry no Chinese input on this comp... hope you know what I'm saying) that specifically means citizens living abroad. Thus, for example, the Huaqiao Office of the PRC State Council deals only with its citizens living abroad. --Sumple (Talk) 04:41, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Usage of (唐番 Tang Fan) & (过番客 Guo Fan Ke)

• 番: 旧时对西方边境各少数民族和外国的称呼。如:番西(四川西部少数民族地区);番钱(外族钱币);番王(少数民族的领袖);番客: (指客居中国的外族人或外国人;或客居南洋的中国人) Dictionnaire chinois chinois

唐番:

• [readusa.com/readusa/sino-america-history/index.html 美国华文《唐番公报》在旧金山创刊。 1876/04/05 美国旧金山白人举行反华 大会。 1878/12/24 美国华文《萃记华美新报》在纽约创刊。 ]

• [www.sinica.edu.tw/~capas/publication/newsletter/N23/2301.pdf 特別喜歡以伯公與拿督公為例，認為「唐、番土地」就是唐番交融的象 ... 拜「唐 番土地」，明確表現其協調後的文化認知]

• [www.fgu.edu.tw/~wclrc/drafts/Taiwan/gong/gong-01.htm 如美國《唐番新聞》，光緒二年七月九日創刊。名為「唐番」，義殆指唐人在番邦，其報刊 體例則自稱：「茲《新聞》之作，亦是率由舊章，與唐山《轅門日報》同出一轍」]

• [www.ls11.com/Article_Show.asp?ArticleID=15035 如唐朝时：通过和亲政策促进了唐蕃 友好，文成公主和金城公主入藏切了唐番的关系；]

过番客: "...李光耀1973年访台时对行政院长蒋经国说：新加坡其实被视为中台以外的第三个中国。民族、文化和语言上的一脉相传，由不得我们否认。但李光耀在回忆录中说中国是“世界最古老的文明，延续了4000年不曾间断的历史。我们这些过番客，斩断了自己的根，寻觅另一种气候另一片土壤重新扎根，欠缺的正是这种自信。”李光耀对新加坡前途忧心忡忡，不知道命运会怎样安排。这段话值得深思..."

• [renwen.100steps.net/ct/cankao/hh21.htm 不单富人们如此，就是那些因贫穷而外出谋生的过番客在外另娶或带回二奶、三奶的亦 不在少数...]

• [bbs.chinabroadcast.cn/simple/index.php?t166623.html 1920年，新加坡仍是英国殖民地，眼看发展潜能优厚，吸引了不少中国过番客南来。]

• [youth.zaobao.com/friday/pages/594tup1.html 过番客南来不容易牛车水以前是华人的聚集区，早期从中国来到这里的过番客，多数都 在这里落户，他们主要来自广东与福建。]

半唐番:

• 身为台湾与日本人的混血儿，被叫作半唐番，既不为日本人所接受，亦不为台湾人社会所容纳

• [learnedfriend.blogspirit.com/影像音圖文誌/ 阿拉丁這角色是由Jason Scott Lee去演，他是個半唐番，怎樣看都是 中國人的臉，而不是阿拉伯人，而且，中國人的臉都是要襯著長辮子，剃了半邊頭髮的。]

• [www.zhongshantour.com.cn/static/2006-08-24/1156404933520387.html 三是把侨居地的语言文化中的一些语词、语意等带回家乡，形成了较为独特的侨乡半唐番的语言； 四是他们把国外的一些动植物和商品带回香山，丰富了家乡人的物质生活。 ]

L joo 08:27, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the links. I don't have time to read all of them right now, but I'll get to them later. --- Hong Qi Gong 14:41, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The Usage of Laowai 老外

In recent years, the usage of Laowai 老外 is getting popular. 2 years ago I travelled to somewhere Sichuan in China and I chitchat with a bus driver. There were some American tourists on our bus, so I heard the driver and his friends calling them " Laowai 老外...." and so I thought Laowai is a term designed for Non-Chinese or perhaps Non-Overseas-Chinese, suddenly the driver said "Hey, you are Laowai too (你们也是老外)".

L joo 09:03, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Laowai just means foreigner. LDHan 11:17, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

... That was... a joke? --Sumple (Talk) 11:56, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Right, I think the joke is that the bus driver was juxtaposing the category of "Chinese" with the category of "foreigner". L-Joo is apparently a Chinese-speaker from an Overseas Chinese family, and so, thus, he would tend to be seen as "Chinese" in a sense; however, the driver was pointing out that L-Joo is also not a Chinese citizen, and so, in that sense, he is a foreigner. The joke is that "Chinese" is habitually seen as exclusive of "foreigner".—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 14:18, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The term means "foreigner", but is usually only applied to non-Chinese or non-Asian. A lot of people do, however, use it to make fun of Chinese people from overseas who act or dress too westernised or foreign. --- Hong Qi Gong 14:39, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for reply. I think Laowai has multiple meanings: foreigners, westerners, westernised outlook, make fun on others, Overseas Chinese, etc. My friend from Malaysia, she is ethnic Chinese, look Chinese, and she speak fluent Putonghua. Her colleagues in China call her "Laowai" on phone and on Skype, they sound seriously, friendly, not making fun on her. Anyway, take it easy, lol.

L joo 22:59, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

WTF guys (in relation to Australia)

Chinese are NOT 20% of the Australian population. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.67.75.124 (talk • contribs) 2006-09-01 01:54:18 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Australians — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.67.75.124 (talk • contribs) 2006-09-01 01:55:41 (UTC)

Yeah yo, homey G, WTF man. Anyway, feel free to correct the numbers when the article becomes unprotected. Most of the numbers on that chart are unsourced and unverified anyway. --- Hong Qi Gong 06:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Prejudice

I think it should be noted that "Mainland Chinese" (my definition is those from Taiwan, Hong Kong, and China) look down at Overseas Chinese, because they weren't born/raised in Mainland China. Both of my parents are Overseas Chinese (my mom's Chinese born in Malayasia, my dad Chinese born in Vietnam) and Mainland Chinese have always felt some sort of resentment toward us for that; many of my friends have Overseas for parents as well, and they have similar problems. Why sigh, cutie pie? 19:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

That's very POV. But if you can find a reputable source for this information, we can mention it. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 19:45, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it's fair to say in general on average any one group of Chinese people will have prejudices against any other Chinese people, and that's not even mentioning the prejudice against other ethnic groups. Eg even within mainland China city people look down on rural people, and then there's the HK prejudice against people from mainland China and so on. Obviously I'm not taking about individuals. I remember once reading about the prejudice held by southern Jiangsu people against people from northern Jiangsu, and it wasn't some tabloid type article but a piece of academic research. LDHan 21:27, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Expatriate category

As "overseas Chinese" includes those who retain Chinese citizenship but live in foreign countries, the expatriate category seems to me to be valid. LDHan 22:04, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I have tried to read all the article Oversea Chinese without finding overseas Chinese includes those who retain Chinese citizenship but live in foreign countries--Ksyrie 22:24, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, those exact words are not in the article, are you saying that Chinese citizens who live (usually long term) in foreign countries are not overseas Chinese? "Overseas Chinese are Chinese people who live outside China", "Huá qiáo (华侨) refers to Chinese residing in countries other than China", and "Huá qiáo, (also Qiáo Bāo or Zhōng Guó Qiáo Mín), is defined by Chinese nationality law as a person born in mainland China, Taiwan, Hong Kong or Macau, who resides overseas but possesses Chinese citizenship and a Chinese passport" are all in the article. LDHan 14:52, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Those words used to be and I wondered about them too. But somebody "fixed" it. tess 00:39, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Why does Ethnic Chinese redirect to Overseas Chinese?

This is ridiculous. Ethnic Chinese should redirect to Han Chinese instead. Many Overseas Chinese aren't even ethnic Chinese (see ethnic Koreans from China living in South Korea). Someone please change the redirect. --Mamin27 03:16, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Is there such a thing as "Ethnic Chinese"? Sees like some sort of oversimplified western neologism like "Ethnic Indian" or "Ethnic African" or something. Rumpelstiltskin223 03:20, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

It redirects to Overseas Chinese because of the massive number of sources cited on the talk page. Try doing a Google books search - virtually every hit refers to Overseas Chinese. Also as per Ethnic German, Ethnic Indian. I am reverting this change. cab 03:33, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

While Ethnic Chinese directing here seems weird to me, directing it to Han Chinese is also odd. The 3 terms aren't synonymous to me. But that's the rub. No one, especially persons of "Chinese" ancestry (including me), seems to be able to agree what they mean.--tess 00:59, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Chinese in Malaysia

List of racial discriminations in Malaysia, practiced by government as well as government agencies. This list is an open secret. Best verified by government itself because it got the statistics.

This list is not in the order of importance, that means the first one on the list is not the most important and the last one on the list does not mean least important.

This list is a common knowledge to a lot of Malaysians, especially those non-malays (Chinese, Ibans, Kadazans, Orang Asli, Tamils, etc) who were being racially discriminated.

Figures in this list are estimates only and please take it as a guide only. Government of Malaysia has the most correct figures. Is government of Malaysia too ashamed to publish their racist acts by publishing racial statistics?

This list cover a period of about 49 years since independence (1957).

List of racial discriminations (Malaysia):

(1) Out of all the 5 major banks, only one bank is multi-racial, the rest are controlled by malays

(2) 99% of Petronas directors are malays

(3) 3% of Petronas employees are Chinese

(4) 99% of 2000 Petronas gasoline stations are owned by malays

(5) 100% all contractors working under Petronas projects must be bumis status

(6) 0% of non-malay staffs is legally required in malay companies. But there must be 30% malay staffs in Chinese companies

(7) 5% of all new intake for government army, nurses, polices, is non-malays

(8) 2% is the present Chinese staff in Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF), drop from 40% in 1960

(9) 2% is the percentage of non-malay government servants in Putrajaya. But malays make up 98%

(10) 7% is the percentage of Chinese government servants in the whole government (in 2004), drop from 30% in 1960

(11) 95% of government contracts are given to malays

(12) 100% all business licensees are controlled by malay government e.g. Approved Permits, Taxi Permits, etc

(13) 80% of the Chinese rice millers in Kedah had to be sold to malay controlled Bernas in 1980s. Otherwise, life is make difficult for Chinese rice millers

(14) 100 big companies set up, managed and owned by Chinese Malaysians were taken over by government, and later managed by malays since 1970s e.g. MISC, UMBC, UTC, etc

(15) At least 10 Chinese owned bus companies (throughout Malaysia, throughout 40 years) had to be sold to MARA or other malay transport companies due to rejection by malay authority to Chinese application for bus routes and rejection for their application for new buses

(16) 2 Chinese taxi drivers were barred from driving in Johor Larkin bus station. There are about 30 taxi drivers and 3 are Chinese in October 2004. Spoiling taxi club properties was the reason given

(17) 0 non-malays are allowed to get shop lots in the new Muar bus station (November 2004)

(18) 8000 billion ringgit is the total amount the government channeled to malay pockets through ASB, ASN, MARA, privatisation of government agencies, Tabung Haji etc, through NEP over 34 years period

(19) 48 Chinese primary schools closed down since 1968 - 2000

(20) 144 Indian primary schools closed down since 1968 - 2000

(21) 2637 malay primary schools built since 1968 - 2000

(22) 2.5% is government budget for Chinese primary schools. Indian schools got only 1%, malay schools got 96.5%

(23) While a Chinese parent with RM1000 salary (monthly) cannot get school-text-book-loan, a malay parent with RM2000 salary is eligible

(24) 10 all public universities vice chancellors are malays

(25) 5% - the government universities lecturers of non-malay origins had been reduced from about 70% in 1965 to only 5% in 2004

(26) Only 5% is given to non-malays for government scholarships over 40 years

(27) 0 Chinese or Indians were sent to Japan and Korea under "Look East Policy"

(28) 128 STPM Chinese top students could not get into the course that they aspired e.g. Medicine (in 2004)

(29) 10% place for non-bumi students for MARA science schools beginning from year 2003, but only 7% are filled. Before that it was 100% malays

(30) 50 cases whereby Chinese and Indian Malaysians, are beaten up in the National Service program in 2003

(31) 25% is Malaysian Chinese population in 2004, drop from 45% in 1957

(32) 7% is the present Malaysian Indians population (2004), a drop from 12% in 1957

(33) 2 million Chinese Malaysians had emigrated to overseas since 40 years ago

(34) 0.5 million Indian Malaysians had emigrated to overseas

(35) 3 million Indonesians had migrated into Malaysia and became Malaysian citizens with bumis status

(36) 600000 are the Chinese and Indian Malaysians with red IC and were rejected repeatedly when applying for citizenship for 40 years. Perhaps 60% of them had already passed away due to old age. This shows racism of how easily Indonesians got their citizenship compare with the Chinese and Indians

(37) 5% - 15% discount for a malay to buy a house, regardless whether the malay is poor or rich

(38) 2% is what Chinese new villages get compare with 98% of what malay villages got for rural development budget

(39) 50 road names (at least) had been changed from Chinese names to other names

(40) 1 Dewan Gan Boon Leong (in Malacca) was altered to other name (e.g. Dewan Serbaguna or sort) when it was being officially used for a few days. Government try to shun Chinese names. This racism happened in around year 2000 or sort

(41) 0 churches/temples were built for each housing estate. But every housing estate got at least one mosque/surau built

(42) 3000 mosques/surau were built in all housing estates throughout Malaysia since 1970. No churches, no temples are required to be built in housing estates

(43) 1 Catholic church in Shah Alam took 20 years to apply to be constructed. But told by malay authority that it must look like a factory and not look like a church. Still not yet approved in 2004

(44) 1 publishing of Bible in Iban language banned (in 2002)

(45) 0 of the government TV stations (RTM1, RTM2, TV3) are directors of non-malay origins

(46) 30 government produced TV dramas and films always showed that the bad guys had Chinese face, and the good guys had malay face. You can check it out since 1970s. Recent years, this tendency becomes less

(47) 10 times, at least, malays (especially Umno) had threatened to massacre the Chinese Malaysians using May 13 since 1969

(48) 20 constituencies won by DAP would not get funds from the government to develop. Or these Chinese majority constituencies would be the last to be developed

(49) 100 constituencies (parliaments and states) had been racistly re-delineated so Chinese voters were diluted that Chinese candidates, particularly DAP candidates lost in election since 1970s

(50) Only 3 out of 12 human rights items are ratified by Malaysia government since 1960

(51) 0 - elimination of all forms of racial discrimination (UN Human Rights) is not ratified by Malaysia government since 1960s

(52) 20 reported cases whereby malay ambulance attendances treated Chinese patients inhumanely, and malay government hospital staffs purposely delay attending to Chinese patients in 2003. Unreported cases may be 200

(53) 50 cases each year whereby Chinese, especially Chinese youths being beaten up by malay youths in public places. We may check at police reports provided the police took the report, otherwise there will be no record

(54) 20 cases every year whereby Chinese drivers who accidentally knocked down malays were seriously assaulted or killed by malays

(55) 12% is what ASB/ASN got per annum while banks fixed deposit is only about 3.5% per annum

There are hundreds more racial discriminations in Malaysia to add to this list of "colossal" racism. It is hope that the victims of racism will write in to expose racism.

Malaysia government should publish statistics showing how much malays had benefited from the "special rights" of malays and at the same time tell the statistics of how much other minority races are being discriminated.

Hence, the responsibility lies in the Malaysia government itself to publish unadulterated statistics of racial discrimination.

If the Malaysia government hides the statistics above, then there must be some evil doings, immoral doings, shameful doings and sinful doings, like the Nazi, going on onto the non-malays of Malaysia.

Civilized nation, unlike evil Nazi, must publish statistics to show its treatment on its minority races. This is what Malaysia must publish.

We are asking for the publication of the statistics showing how "implementation of special rights of malays" had inflicted colossal racial discrimination onto non-malays. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.187.192.6 (talk • contribs) January 18, 2007 16:22 UTC (UTC)

Any reliable sources for all of the above? Apparently not, since you say they're just estimates. cab 19:25, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

This may make a good article on its own, with a link from this article, when reliable sources are cited.--tess 23:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

It may be interesting to compare this with Ketuanan Melayu.--Huaiwei 01:55, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion

Perhaps this article would best be moved to Chinese diaspora? The two terms are mostly synonymous, with the term Chinese diaspora more technical and literal. Overseas Chinese would rarely, if ever, be used to describe ethnic Chinese in Mongolia and Russia, for example. I'd suggest the opening sentence rewritten as, "The Chinese diaspora, commonly referred to as Overseas Chinese, are people..." Thoughts welcome. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.189.137.249 (talk • contribs) 2007-01-20 21:22:20 (UTC)

This was discussed very briefly above. Several editors (myself included) felt that "Overseas Chinese" is a more common term. And personally, I think there's enough material to make a different article out of "Chinese diaspora". Eventually down the line, I would like "Overseas Chinese" to be more about the demographics of Overseas Chinese, whereas "Chinese diaspora" would be more about the history of and trends in Chinese emigration. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 22:00, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, but the problem I see is that while Overseas Chinese may be more common, it is not used in instances that include or refer to Mongolia and Russia, whereas this article does. Perhaps we should consider switching to the the technically correct, albeit less common, name. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 124.189.137.249 (talk) 22:37, 20 January 2007 (UTC).

I tend to agree. This article should be in line with the other diasporas. Kesälauantait 20:53, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

There is already a page for Chinese Migration/Chinese Diaspora, and those two terms seem more synonymous than "Overseas Chinese" and "Chinese Diaspora" are to each other. I wonder why typing "Chinese Diaspora" doesn't redirect there instead.--tess 00:03, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

There is another solution, which is to combine the two under Chinese diaspora, as both articles can be classified under that name. This would also address the issue of Mongolia etc. Ryan Fields 00:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Languages

Of the Overseas Chinese, what percentage are from a Cantonese-speaking background, what percentage speak Hokkien, Chaozhou, Hakka, Wu, etc.? This seems important to the subject, and should be treated. Badagnani 07:25, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Good question. I don't know the specific numbers, but Overseas Chinese in North America have historically been mostly Cantonese. Recently, in the last decade or two, there has been a rise of Hokkien immigration from Fujian. There are sizable Hokkien and Hakka populations in Southeast Asia, but I don't know how their numbers compare to the Cantonese population there. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 07:30, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

From my experience here - local population vast majority Cantonese. New immigrants Wu or Cantonese both in large proportions. --Sumple (Talk) 10:56, 12 February 2007 (UTC)