User:Thunderbird2/my sandbox and Colin Larkin: Difference between pages

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'''Colin Larkin''' was the main [[writer]], creative [[editor]] and [[founder]] of the internationally renowned ''[[Encyclopedia of Popular Music]]'' <ref> Larkin, Colin (ed.), The Encyclopedia Of Popular Music (4th Edition 10 vols) Oxford University Press (UK/USA) 2006 </ref>, described by [[Jools Holland]] as 'without question the most useful reference work on popular music' and by [[The Times]] as 'the standard against which all others must be judged’.<ref> This information was obtained from [http://www.hi-arts.co.uk/Default.aspx.LocID-hianewmqf.RefLocID-hiacg5002001.Lang-EN.htm Hi-Arts.co.uk]</ref>
[[Image:Fishfinder.jpg|thumb|left|Cabin display of a fish finder sonar]]


Along with the ten volume [[encyclopedia]], Larkin has produced countless notable offshoots, including the ''[[All-Time Top 1000 Albums]]'' <ref> Larkin, Colin, All-Time Top 1000 Albums (3rd Edition), Virgin Books (UK), 2000.</ref>, the ''Guinness Who’s Who Of [[Jazz]]''<ref> Larkin, Colin (ed.), Guinness Who's Who Of Jazz (2nd Edition), Guinness Publishing (UK), 1995</ref>, the ''Guinness Who’s Who Of [[Blues]]''<ref> Larkin, Colin (ed.), Guinness Who’s Who Of Blues (2nd Edition), Guinness Publishing (UK), 1995</ref> and the ''Virgin Encyclopedia Of [[Heavy Rock]]''<ref> Larkin, Colin (ed.), Virgin Encyclopedia Of Heavy Rock, The, Virgin Books (UK), 1999.</ref>. The compiler of the most extensive database of popular music in Europe and the USA, a writer and book designer by trade, Larkin has over 650,000 copies in print to date.
[[:Image:Thunderbird2.jpg|150px|thumb|center|Thunderbirds are GO]]
=binary prefix=
==Attempt at clarification==
There seem to be some misunderstandings here. I will try to help by explaining my position more clearly. First, no one is disputing that the source refers to 32 KiB of memory. Further, no one is disputing that K was sometimes used to mean 1024, and that such use began in the early 1960s.


==Background and education==
The point being made is that it was sometimes used to mean 1024 and sometimes to mean approximately 1,000, ''even in the context of binary arithmetic''. An example is the 1961 IBM article using 65K to mean ca. 65,000 B (an approximation to 64 KiB). The fact that it was used in the two different ways makes the meaning ambiguous unless the author makes an explicit statement about it. When I [[User_talk:Swtpc6800#K_in_binary_sense|asked SWTPC6800 for some early sources using K=1024]], he was kind enough to provide me with two, the earliest of which is dated 1965. I assume that at that time at least he was unaware of any earlier cases, or he would have mentioned them then.


Colin Larkin was born in [[Dagenham]], [[Essex]] (1949), in an area of [[London]] that was largely populated by workers in the car industry. The post-war years had proved lucrative for the [[Ford]] motor company <ref> The number of workers on the Dagenham site increased from 12,000 to 35,000 as Ford met the demand of 360,000 military vehicles, vans and army trucks. [http://www.ford.co.uk/ie/htg_fib/-/htg_fib_WW21970/-/-/-/- History of Ford in Britain]</ref>, but Larkin was raised in relative poverty, in the largest area of [[council housing]] in the [[United Kingdom]]; in the [[suburban]], [[industrial]] [[wasteland]] that surrounded the Ford plant. The [[Becontree]] estate in Dagenham began as a conglomeration of 27,000 "homes for heroes", and had no recognisable [[town centre]].
What is disputed, therefore, is the meaning of “K” in “32K”. It is possible that its author meant K=1024. But he did not say so explicitly, and therefore it is also possible he meant it in the sense of “approximately 32,000”, exactly as in the IBM article at around the same time. To claim that 32K must have meant 32 KiB (as opposed to approximately 32,000 B) is equivalent to stating that 65K must have meant 65 KiB (and not approximately 65,000 B).


[[Image:Mannings Supreme Waltzer, spinning 02.jpg|thumb|right|250px| ''A waltzer in motion''. The operator walks the boards to spins the cars]]
The statement in the WP article is equivalent to a claim that the author meant K=1024. The onus is not on me to show that he did not mean that, it is on those who defend the claim to show that he did.
==reply==
===reply1===
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AThunderbird2&diff=231497000&oldid=231415769 This decision] of yours bothers me, and is the main reason I have stopped contributing to en.wp. The reason it bothers me is that two sides in a dispute were not treated equally, and I would like to give you a chance to explain. This is what I saw:
*[[User:Thunderbird2]] makes 3 reverts in a 24 hr period [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Binary_prefix&diff=231245755&oldid=231222355] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Binary_prefix&diff=231185530&oldid=231132746] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Binary_prefix&diff=231105275&oldid=231100558] and is blocked without warning
*[[User:Fnagaton]] makes 5 reverts in two 24 hr periods [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Binary_prefix&diff=231010592&oldid=230855835] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Binary_prefix&diff=231062337&oldid=231047996] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Binary_prefix&diff=231100558&oldid=231071618] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Binary_prefix&diff=231222355&oldid=231185530] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Binary_prefix&diff=231306025&oldid=231289273] and is neither blocked nor warned.
I repeat what I said then that the intention of my reverts was to take the dispute to the talk page, where it could be discussed and resolved without disruption to the article. If you see that as edit-warring that is fair enough. What I cannot understand is the unequal treatment. How do you justify it?
*Hrm, I'm sorry that you feel that way Thunderbird, but I was only reviewing the unblock request. I reviewed your actions ''[[Wikipedia:GAB#Talk_about_yourself.2C_not_others|and your actions alone]]'', and did not look at other side; this would have been the responsibility of the blocking admin. However, if you do feel that I, or another admin, has made an error in judgment or the fulfillment of my duties, please raise a discussion at the [[WP:Administrators' noticeboard|administrators' noticeboard]] for further outside opinions. I do not wish to see you stop contributing to Wikipedia, and encourage you to continue to do so, but all of us must realize that at some point, we may be at odds with consensus and just have to accept that fact. I've been there; it's frustrating, but in the end just look at the big picture and find something else to do. Feel free to ask for further clarification on any of the above. Best regards, –<font face="Verdana">[[User:Xenocidic|<font color="black">'''xeno'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Xenocidic|<font color="black">talk</font>]])</font> 14:04, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
===reply2===
** Thanks for your explanation. You seem to be saying that you treated us unequally because the rules require you to do so, which doesn't make me feel any more inclined than I was before to continue editing. The blocking admin appears to have been responding to an accusation that I had made 5 reverts in 24 hrs. That is pure fiction, but if taken at face value, I can see why he acted in the way he did. But if the reviewing admin is not permitted to take the more complete picture I provided into account, the unfairness of the situation is institutionalised. Or are you saying that the blocking admin should have investigated the situation more thoroughly before acting?
** A final question, raised by Fnagaton's intervention above: How should I respond to his accusation of vandalism?
::Hrm, that's not quite what I said... what I said was that in reviewing an unblock request only the actions of the blockee are taken into account. I don't have time at present to review the situation thoroughly and determine if any other parties should have been blocked as well or if your edits can be reasonably construed as vandalism. I will try to take a look tonight, but this complaint is really best raised with the blocking admin or [[WP:AN]] (I can initiate these discussions if you like), as I was simply reviewing the block which '''''in and of itself''''' appeared sound to me at the time of my review. I do recall taking about 10-15 minutes reviewing it before declining and determining that it did indeed meet the definition of edit warring. Again, I would be saddened for this to be the straw that made you leave Wikipedia, and I know nothing at all of binary number theory so I can't really help with mediating that content dispute, but just remember that when your opinion is of the minority, sometimes you just have to move on to more fruitful endeavours. –<font face="Verdana">[[User:Xenocidic|<font color="black">'''xeno'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Xenocidic|<font color="black">talk</font>]])</font> 18:58, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
===reply3===
You’re right, of course. That isn’t exactly what you said, but isn’t it an inevitable consequence of looking at only half of the picture?


Larkin spent much of his early childhood in the twilight world of the travelling [[fair]], where his father, who worked by day as a plumber for the council, moonlighted on the [[waltzer]]s to make ends meet. The contrast between daily life in the [[gas lighting|gas lit]] council houses on the [[Becontree]] estate and life amid the [[electricity]] guzzling, gaudy extravagance of the fairground, could not have been more marked. It was in the fairground, against a background of [[Little Richard]] on the wind-up [[78 rpm]] [[turntables]], Larkin acquired his passion for the world of [[popular music]]<ref> ''Who'd Put the Everley Brothers above Elvis'', Evening Standard 20th December 2006. </ref>, and coincidentally, a taste for exotic pattern and vivid colour, which would re-surface in later years in books on [[Islamic Art]] and [[Architecture]], and [[Oriental rug]]s.
Don’t let Fnagaton mislead you into believing I was editing against consensus. There were two other editors (Tom94022 and Shreevatsa) who agreed with my interpretation and two others (Greg_L and Swtpc6800) who agreed with Fnagaton. Greg_L’s [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABinary_prefix&diff=231310883&oldid=231306620 bullying tactics] put off Tom94022 and Shreevatsa, leaving a false impression of consensus on the page. You probably suspect that there is more to this dispute than meets the eye, and there is. It is just the tip of an iceberg, so I will try to give you a feel for the sense in which this was the last straw for me.


In the 1950's he attended the ''South East Essex County Technical High School'' and from there he obtained an [[apprenticeship]] enabling him to take a sandwich course at the [[London College of Printing]] (now the London College of Communication). There he studied [[typography]] and book [[design]].<ref> All about the guru of groove, Colin Larkin, editor of The Encyclopedia of Popular Music [http://fds.oup.com/www.oup.com/pdf/online_products/larkinbio.pdf Oxford University Press online]</ref> and was influenced by the [[typeface]] [[designer]] [[Eric Gill]], who is associated with the [[Arts and Crafts movement]].
Greg_L has [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Greg_L#Evidence_of_disputed_behavior |used this approach previously]], and Greg_L & Fnagaton work closely together to achieve their objectives (so closely that they vote on each other’s behalf when one is offline), accusing of disruption those who dare to challenge them. Greg_L is the rudest editor I have ever encountered on wp, and his [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AVassyana&diff=233133618&oldid=233010056 incivility continues] with impunity. My main motivation for editing on wp, I believe in common with most other editors, is that it is enjoyable and relaxing. But, believe me, it is no fun dealing with these two, so where is the motivation for me to continue?


==''Back to Square One''==
Omegatron once tried to reign in Greg_L’s behaviour at [[WP:MOSNUM]] by means of [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Greg_L|this rfc]],
but it has made no difference. My [[Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2008-07-13_Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)|request for mediation]] at mosum was turned down, as far as I can tell because Greg_L & Fnagaton, unsurprisingly, do not wish to see any mediation. Omegatron was driven away from mosnum by Greg_L and Fnagaton, and has been inactive for some time. He has now [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3AOmegatron&diff=234021592&oldid=216776334 left the project altogether]. He was disillusioned for [[User:Omegatron/Binary_prefix_rationale|much the same reasons as I am]].


Larkin began his working life in [[commercial art]], advertising design groups and for the book publisher Pearson [[Longmans]]. In 1967 his vocation as a [[writer]] made its first appearance in the public domain, when he began writing for music [[journals]] and [[magazines]]. At Longmans he became senior book Designer/Art Editor, but he soon wearied of working for the publishing house and in 1976 he left to co-found his own book publishing company, ''Scorpion Publishing''. From the outset Larkin was intent upon reaching areas of the book reading public that other [[publisher]]s felt it unnecessary or unprofitable to reach. In 1976 he was the Art Director of the ''World Of Islam Festival'' in London. ''Scorpion Publishing'', published art books on [[Oriental carpets]] and [[Islamic Art]]. They also designed and published John Gorman's trilogy of [[Labour Party]] history; ''Banner Bright'' <ref> ''Banner Bright'', Gorman J., Scorpion Cavendish Ltd; Rev Edition(5 Nov 1986)</ref>,[http://www.redpepperbooks.co.za/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=9780905906270 ''To Build Jerusalem''] and ''Images Of Labour'' <ref> ''Images of labour : selected memorabilia from the National Museum of Labour History'' Gorman, J. (1985) , London. London: Scorpion.</ref>.
If you really want to encourage me to stay, the best way to do so would be to find someone prepared to mediate [[Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2008-07-13_Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)|here]]. I do not plan to take this up at WP:AN myself (Omegatron tried that route also and it came to nothing, and anyway, I would not know what to write), but I have no objection to you doing so, if you think you can achieve something. Actually I would appreciate it. It is high time the antics of Greg_L & Fnagaton were investigated.


Notable music titles at this time included ''Timeless Flight: The Definitive Story of The Byrds''<ref> ''Timeless Flight: The Definitive Story of The Byrds'', Rogan, J., '''Scorpion Publications / Dark Star''', London, 1981 [http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?an=rogan&bt.x=0&bt.y=0&sortby=3&sts=t&tn=timeless+flight Abe Books]</ref> and ''Bob Dylan’s Unreleased Recordings''.<ref> ''All about the guru of groove, Colin Larkin, editor of The Encyclopedia of Popular Music'' [http://fds.oup.com/www.oup.com/pdf/online_products/larkinbio.pdf OUP.com]</ref>
Thank you for your offer to initiate a discussion at WP:AN ...
***not editing against consensus: there were three editors who questioned the wording (myself + Tom94022 + Shreevtsa) while three defended it (Fnagaton, Greg_L and SWTPC). Of the three, one is renowned for incivil behaviour (which [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABinary_prefix&diff=231310883&oldid=231306620 continued during the discussion]). That is not consensus.
***BTW I have no intention to stop contributing to other languages. It is only en.wp where I have witnessed the likes of [[Wikipedia:Suspected_sock_puppets/Fnagaton|Fnagaton]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AFnagaton&diff=215029730&oldid=214885000] and [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Greg_L#Evidence_of_disputed_behavior|Greg_L]] roaming unchecked.


In the 1980's the idea of "an encyclopedia of popular music" was beginning to take hold of Larkin, who read music magazines avidly and was acquiring a considerable personal library of [[singles]] and [[Albums]]. His passion for an encyclopedia that would do for [[Bob Dylan]] and the [[Beatles]], what [[Groves]] had done for 'supposedly' more worthy subjects, finally took over when in 1989 he sold his half of ''Scorpion Books'', in order to fund the project and founded ''Square One Books'' to realise an idealist's dream.
=recent events=
INSTABILITY ON MOSNUM BETWEEN 17 APRIL AND 7 JUNE
The instability started at 03:02 on 17 April 2008 following [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=206165744&oldid=205698182 this edit] by Greg_L, in which he introduces some text into [[WP:MOSNUM]] that had not previously been discussed at [[WT:MOSNUM]]. (It had been discussed on a sub-page, but most editors on the main talk page were not aware of the proposed new text). Greg_L’s edit was followed by:
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=206208108&oldid=206183677 Lightmouse removes new text, requesting discussion on talk page 09:34, 17 April 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=206213481&oldid=206208108 Fnagaton reverts Lightmouse 10:24, 17 April 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=206218206&oldid=206213481 Thunderbird2 reverts Fnagaton 11:04, 17 April 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=206226142&oldid=206218206 Fnagaton reverts Thunderbird2 12:13, 17 April 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=206237692&oldid=206227834 Lightmouse removes new text 13:27, 17 April 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=206246171&oldid=206237692 Fnagaton reverts Lightmouse 14:13, 17 April 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=206264650&oldid=206246171 Thunderbird2 takes the disputed text to the talk page 15:44, 17 April 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=206306348&oldid=206279107 Greg_L reinstates text 19:06, 17 April 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=206436186&oldid=206336226 Thunderbird2 reverts Greg_L 06:04, 18 April 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=206444744&oldid=206436635 DavidPaulHamilton reverts Thunderbird2 07:32, 18 April 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=206454928&oldid=206444744 Jimp defuses the situation to clarify that the new text has the status of a proposal 09:09, 18 April 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=208329240&oldid=208308311 Lightmouse removes proposal, requesting that a different process be used 14:57, 26 April 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=208354651&oldid=208340574 Greg_L reinstates proposal 17:27, 26 April 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=208476336&oldid=208450466 Gene_Nygaard removes proposal 06:42, 27 April 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=208478308&oldid=208476425 Francis_Schonken reinstates text (no longer a proposal?) 07:04, 27 April 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=208513643&oldid=208490158 Tony1 adds ‘disputed’ tag 12:43, 27 April 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=208514213&oldid=208513643 Fnagaton removes disputed tag (dt) 12:48, 27 April 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=208514721&oldid=208514213 Thunderbird2 reinstates dt 12:51, 27 April 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=208521701&oldid=208514721 DavidPaulHamilton removes dt 13:42, 27 April 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=208522538&oldid=208521701 Tony1 adds dt 13:48, 27 April 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=208527178&oldid=208522538 DavidPaulHamilton removes dt 14:19, 27 April 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=208534080&oldid=208527178 Gene_Nygaard adds dt 15:03, 27 April 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=208562313&oldid=208545846 Fnagaton removes dt 17:33, 27 April 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=208565695&oldid=208562313 Tony1 removes disputed text 17:50, 27 April 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=208566423&oldid=208565695 Fnagaton reverts Tony1 17:53, 27 April 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=208580347&oldid=208566423 Thunderbird2 reinstates dt 18:59, 27 April 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=208619952&oldid=208600863 Heimstern protects page after edit war between sockpuppets [[User:DavidPaulHamilton]] and [[User:CharlesFinnegan]] 22:11, 27 April 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=210141922&oldid=208620098 Happy-melon adds dt to entire units section following request from talk page 17:44, 4 May 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=210890623&oldid=210709683 Greg_L removes dt from FCL sub-section 21:20, 7 May 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=210977654&oldid=210910224 Thunderbird2 removes dt from binary prefixes sub-section 06:23, 8 May 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=211701600&oldid=211667511 Greg_L removes dt from entire units section 18:34, 11 May 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=211702413&oldid=211701600 Jimp reinstates dt 18:38, 11 May 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=211703252&oldid=211702413 Greg_L removes dt, accusing Jimp of vandalism 18:43, 11 May 2008]
*unstable period here skipped
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=211735509&oldid=211728854 Thunderbird2 reinstates dt 21:34, 11 May 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=211745700&oldid=211735509 Greg_L moves dt to cover entire units section 22:29, 11 May 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=211749879&oldid=211745700 omegatron adds dt to FCL 22:54, 11 May 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=211801396&oldid=211749879 DavidPaulHamilton removes dt, claiming consensus 04:21, 12 May 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=211832226&oldid=211801396 Thunderbird2 reinstates dt 09:06, 12 May 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=212274528&oldid=212260563 DavidPaulHamilton removes dt 03:35, 14 May 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=212290505&oldid=212281508 Jimp reinstates dt 05:42, 14 May 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=212292759&oldid=212290505 Greg_L removes dt 06:04, 14 May 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=212293792&oldid=212292759 Jimp reinstates dt 06:14, 14 May 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=212294735&oldid=212293792 Greg_L removes dt 06:22, 14 May 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=212404837&oldid=212384760 Thunderbird2 attempt to clarify precisely which sections are disputed 18:22, 14 May 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=212421169&oldid=212411476 DavidPaulHamilton removes dt for FCL sub-section 19:32, 14 May 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=212447679&oldid=212421169 Thunderbird2 reinstates dt 21:19, 14 May 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=212461769&oldid=212449942 DavidPaulHamilton removes dt 22:17, 14 May 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=212465817&oldid=212461769 Classicaio adds dt 22:36, 14 May 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=212490992&oldid=212465817 Omegatron removes disputed text 00:36, 15 May 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=212511804&oldid=212490992 Greg_L reinstates disputed text 02:31, 15 May 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=212595940&oldid=212511804 DavidPaulHamilton removes dt 13:19, 15 May 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=213827133&oldid=213665425 Omegatron removes disputed text 23:44, 20 May 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=213854199&oldid=213827133 Greg_L reinstates disputed text 01:58, 21 May 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=214921322&oldid=214645361 Omegatron removes disputed text 22:22, 25 May 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=214923861&oldid=214921322 DavidPaulHamilton reinstates disputed text 22:37, 25 May 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=215396334&oldid=215287305 Omegatron removes disputed text 00:26, 28 May 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=215443028&oldid=215398556 Greg_L reinstates disputed text 06:01, 28 May 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=216940507&oldid=216804871 UserLogin34 removes disputed text 22:20, 3 June 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=216941981&oldid=216940507 Fnagaton reinstates disputed text 22:27, 3 June 2008]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=217782778&oldid=217665299 Headbomb uploads revised text, replacing entire units section 17:31, 7 June 2008]


==''The [[Encyclopedia of Popular Music]]''==
====list of editors contacted on 15 June 2008 because they====
=====participated in RfC=====
Aluvus, Fnagaton, Francis_Schonken, Headbomb, Lightmouse, MJCdetroit, Omegatron, Quilbert, SWTPC6800


In 1990 Larkin formed ''Square One Books'' to create a multi-volume [[Encyclopedia of Popular Music]], and to publish music related books. Aided by a team of around 70 contributors, a fast growing library of music magazines and records, and an unrivalled passion for his subject, in a pre-internet age, he began compiling the 'data' that would form the basis of the encyclopedia. For the next three years two things were to consume his life, his young son, who was fighting a long slow battle with [[leukemia]], and music, his strongest supporter. In 1992 his son lost the battle, and the first edition of the [[Encyclopedia of Popular Music]] went into print.<ref> ''With a head full of hits'', The Knowledge, The Times, Dec 22 - Jan 4th, 2008.</ref> It was a four volume testament to passion in the face of adversity, that had driven Larkin almost to brink of bankruptcy, and was quickly recognised as such: [[Rolling Stone magazine]] described the work as "musical history in the making", in [[The Times]] they called it "A work of almost frightening completeness".
=====were mentioned in my post=====
Gene_Nygaard, Jimp, Tony1


(pending)
=====participated in relevant MOSNUM discussion=====
Woodstone, Jeh, Pyrotec, Seraphimblade


==Books==
=====same text used for everyone=====
Hello. I would appreciate your comments [[Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/Greg_L#Response_by_Thunderbird2_to_Headbomb.27s_comments|here]] and [[Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/Greg_L#Response_by_Thunderbird2_to_Greg_L.27s_accusation_of_disruption|here]]. Thank you.
=====also contacted=====
SMcClandish, 16 June, because he attempted mediation at one point


Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''Guinness Who’s Who Of Jazz'', Guinness Publishing (UK), 1992.


Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''Guinness Who’s Who Of Sixties Music'', Guinness Publishing (UK), 1992.


Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''Guinness Who’s Who Of Indie And New Wave Music'', Guinness Publishing (UK), 1992.


Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''Guinness Who’s Who Of Heavy Metal'', Guinness Publishing (UK), 1992.


Larkin, Colin (ed.),'' Guinness Encyclopedia Of Popular Music'' (1st Edition, 4 Vols), Guinness Publishing 1992.
= Should MOSNUM continue to deprecate IEC prefixes?=
On 7 June 2008 a substantial [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=217782778&oldid=217665299 change] was made to [[WP:MOSNUM]], including a [[Wikipedia:MOSNUM#Editing_with_byte_and_bit_prefixes|virtual ban]] on the use of [[International_Electrotechnical_Commission|IEC]] units of computer storage such as the [[mebibyte]]. At that time, the views of editors arguing ''against'' the ban were not taken into account, despite an 11-0 majority against such deprecation only 2 months before that. As far as I know, no attempt was made to seek the views of those 11 editors, even though only 4 of them were involved in the discussions prior to the change in June. Nearly a month has passed since then and it may be time to reconsider whether it is wise for MOSNUM to include a statement for which there is little or no consensus.


Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''Guinness Encyclopedia Of Popular Music Concise Edition'', Guinness Publishing 1993.
A brief summary of events leading up to the change is discussed [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29/Archive_104#Discussion_of_events_leading_up_to_7_June_2008 here]. Details of the long discussion leading to the change can be found [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29/Archive/Complete_rewrite_of_Units_of_Measurements_%28June_2008%29 here]. Two subsequent attempts to discuss this point were made by [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29/Archive_104#Archive_B9 Omegatron] and by [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29/Archive_104#IEC_prefix_debate Quilbert].


Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''Guinness Who’s Who Of Seventies Music'', Guinness Publishing (UK), 1993.
Below I list some arguments for and against deprecation.


Larkin, Colin (ed.),'' Guinness Who’s Who Of Folk Music'', Guinness Publishing (UK), 1993.
==arguments in favour of the deprecation of IEC prefixes==
# IEC prefixes are rare and unfamiliar to many readers
#etc


Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''Guinness Who’s Who Of Soul Music'', Guinness Publishing (UK), 1993.
==arguments against the deprecation of IEC prefixes==
#IEC prefixes are unambiguous, simple to use and simple to understand
#the use of IEC prefixes is supported by national and international standards bodies ([[International_Electrotechnical_Commission|IEC]], [[BIPM]], [[IEEE]], [[NIST]])
#use of IEC prefixes in scientific publications is increasing: [http://scholar.google.nl/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=MiB+GiB&as_ylo=1999&as_yhi=2001&btnG=Search 1999-2001 (17 hits)]; [http://scholar.google.nl/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=MiB+GiB&as_ylo=2002&as_yhi=2004&btnG=Search 2002-2004 (34 hits)]; [http://scholar.google.nl/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=MiB+GiB&as_ylo=2005&as_yhi=2007&btnG=Search 2005-2007 (53 hits)]
#the alternative (binary use of SI-like prefixes) is deprecated by the same standards bodies
#deprecation (of IEC prefixes) increases the difficulty threshold for disambiguation, reducing the rate at which articles can be disambiguated by expert editors
#in turn this reduces the total number of articles that can be further improved by less expert editors with footnotes etc (assuming that there is consensus to do so)
#deprecation is [[User:Quilbert/IEC#Articles_affected_by_the_new_MOSNUM_guideline_introduced_on_7_June_2008|interpreted by some editors]] as a justification for changing unambiguous units into ambiguous ones
#removing IEC prefixes from articles, even when disambiguated with footnotes, destroys a part of the information that was there before, because it requires an expert to work out which footnote corresponds to which use in the article
#etc


Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''Guinness Who’s Who Of Blues'', Guinness Publishing (UK), 1993.
==discussion==
I have little doubt that both lists are incomplete. Comments are invited, as well as new additions to either one
= who to contact?=
==editors==
===all involved in 11-0 vote (except [[User:Thunderbird2|self]] & [[User:DavidPaulHamilton|Fnagaton's sock]])===
#[[User:Sambc|SamBC]]
#[[User:Greg L|Greg L]]
#[[User:Jeh|Jeh]]
#[[User:Tom94022|Tom94022]]
#[[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]]
#[[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]]
#[[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]]
#[[User:Crissov|Christoph]]
#[[User:Woodstone|Woodstone]]
#[[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]]


Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''Guinness Who’s Who Of Fifties Music'', Guinness Publishing (UK), 1993.
===all involved in discussions prior to 7 June===
#[[User:Headbomb]]
#[[User:Fnagaton]]
#[[User:Wgungfu]]
#[[User:Pyrotec]]
#[[User:Greg L]]
#[[User:Swtpc6800]]
#[[User:MJCdetroit]]
#[[User:Francis Schonken]]
#[[User:Jimp]]
#[[User:Rilak]]
#[[User:Woodstone]]
#[[User:Seraphimblade]]


Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''Guinness Who’s Who Of Country Music'', Guinness Publishing (UK), 1993.
==other involved editors==
#[[User:Quilbert]] (attempted to start a discussion at [[WT:MOSNUM]])
#[[user talk:EncMstr|EncMstr]] (raised point on FAT talk page)
#[[User_Talk:Potatoswatter|Potatoswatter]] Mac 512K talk page


Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''Guinness Who’s Who Of Stage Musicals'' , Guinness Publishing (UK), 1994.
==final list (union) in alphabetical order==
===named explicitly in initial mediation request===
#[[User_talk:Fnagaton|Fnagaton]]
#[[User_talk:Greg L|Greg L]]
#[[User_talk:Headbomb|Headbomb]]
#[[User_talk:Jeh|Jeh]]
#[[User_talk:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]]
#[[User_talk:Tom94022|Tom94022]]
#[[User_talk:Woodstone|Woodstone]]
===added later to mediation request by Fnagaton===
# <s>[[User:Dfmclean|Dfmclean]]</s>
#[[User_talk:MJCdetroit|MJCdetroit]]
#[[User:Pyrotec|Pyrotec]]
#[[User_talk:Swtpc6800|Swtpc6800]]


Larkin, Colin, ''All Time Top 1000 Albums'', Guinness Publishing (UK), 1994.
===other involved editors===
#[[User_talk:Crissov|Crissov]]
#[[User_talk:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]]
#<s>[[user talk:EncMstr|EncMstr]]</s>
#[[User_talk:Francis Schonken|Francis Schonken]]
#[[User_talk:Jimp|Jimp]]
#[[User_talk:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]]
#[[User_talk:Quilbert|Quilbert]]
#[[User_talk:Omegatron|Omegatron]]
#<s>[[User_Talk:Potatoswatter|Potatoswatter]]</s>
#[[User_talk:Rilak|Rilak]]
#[[User_talk:Sambc|SamBC]]
#[[User_talk:Wgungfu|Wgungfu]]


Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''Guinness Who’s Who Of Rap, Dance & Techno'', Guinness Publishing (UK), 1994.
==articles==
the 9 affected articles + [[binary prefix]]


Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''Guinness Who’s Who Of Film Musicals & Musical Films'', Guinness Publishing 1994


Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''Guinness Who’s Who Of Reggae'', Guinness Publishing (UK), 1994.


Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''Guinness Who's Who Of Jazz'' (2nd Edition), Guinness Publishing (UK), 1995.
#[[Talk:Binary prefix]]
#[[Talk:Dual-channel architecture]]
#[[Talk:File allocation table]]
#[[Talk:Itanium]]
#[[Talk:Macintosh 512K]]
#[[Talk:MacBook Pro]]
#[[Talk:Macintosh Quadra 950]]
#[[Talk:OpenVZ]]
#[[Talk:Power Macintosh 5500]]
#[[Talk:Upper Memory Area]]


Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''Guinness Encyclopedia Of Popular Music'' (2nd Edition, 6 Vols), Guinness 1995 (UK),
= Should MOSNUM continue to deprecate IEC prefixes?=
A discussion has been started at [[WP:MOSNUM]] concerning the continued deprecation of IEC prefixes. Please comment at the [[Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29#Should_MOSNUM_continue_to_deprecate_IEC_prefixes.3F|MOSNUM talk page]]. ~~ ~~


Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''Guinness Who’s Who Of Indie And New Wave'' (2nd Edition), Guinness Publishing 1995.
==where next?==
About a month ago I [[User_talk:Rlevse/RlevseTalkArchive10#Request_for_advice |approached you]] for advice on how to deal with a conflict at [[WT:MOSNUM]]. You suggested I use [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Greg_L |this RfC]] as a suitable venue to respond to the [[User_talk:Thunderbird2#Warning_about_editing_against_consensus|accusation of disruption]] that had been made against me by [[User:Greg_L]]. You can read my response and the ensuing discussion [[Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/Greg_L#Response_by_Thunderbird2_to_Greg_L.27s_accusation_of_disruption|here]].
Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''Guinness Who’s Who Of Blues'' (2nd Edition), Guinness Publishing (UK), 1995.


Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''Guinness Who’s Who Of Heavy Metal'' (2nd Edition), Guinness Publishing (UK), 1995.
Since then I have been [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Headbomb#Questions_for_the_candidate|blamed for the conflict at MOSNUM]] by [[User:Headbomb]] during the first of his 2 RfAs and [[User_talk:Headbomb#Thunderbird2|accused of disruption again]], this time by [[User:Fnagaton]], on Headbomb’s talk page. This accusation of disruption followed my [[Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29#Should_MOSNUM_continue_to_deprecate_IEC_prefixes.3F|attempt to start a discussion]] on 5 July at MOSNUM. As might be expected in any discussion, some editors agree with my point of view and others don't. The problem is that those who agree with me are met with ridicule such as
*[[Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29#This_MOSNUM_talk_page_has_officially_been_declared_a_.E2.80.9Cno_whining_zone.E2.80.9D|''This MOSNUM talk page has officially been declared a “no whining zone”'']],
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=224165628&oldid=224157385 “I want my IEC prefixes! I want my IEC prefixes! We had them for three years '''and I want them''' '''''baaaaack!'''''. Well… <u>tough</u>] and
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=225289931&oldid=225271125 ''Well, Anomie, do you feel better now after that little fourth-graders’ rant?'' ],
while an editor who disagrees is cheered on with
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=223865628&oldid=223864892 ''Hallelujah, amen. Pass the collection plate and let’s get outa here''].
The net result is to discourage meaningful discussion, giving a false impression of consensus. The best way to get a feel for the atmosphere is to start at the [[Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29#Should_MOSNUM_continue_to_deprecate_IEC_prefixes.3F|top]] and read down. Here are some more examples[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=prev&oldid=224032225] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=prev&oldid=223853960].


Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Popular Music'', Concise Edition, Virgin Books (UK), 1997.
The question now is what to do about it. I have been advised by one editor to walk away, and I have to admit that option is a tempting one. But last time I came here you suggested mediation as a possible route to resolution. The question then is what does that entail, and how would it solve the problem?


Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Seventies Music'', Virgin Books (UK), 1997.
==was there ever consensus on this?==
reasons to question that consensus was reached:
*the concerns of the 3 minority editors (in the 7-3 vote for the present wording) were not taken into account
** the excuse given for this is that these were "I don't like it", but they were not
** mine was a "there is no consensus for this" vote, based on months and months of archived discussion, culminating in a vote of 11-0 against the very deprecation that is used in the present wording
** I did not see a need to go over all of the reasons for an umpteenth time, as I could not believe anyone would have the temerity of ignoring such an overwhelming consensus against deprecation - I was wrong
*the views of the editors involved in the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_B9#IEC_units_should_be_banned_except_for_direct.2C_verbatim_quotes.2C_and_articles_discussing_the_units_themselves 11-0 vote] (against the present wording) were not sought
*the discussion was held in an acrimonious atmosphere, in which any opposition to deprecation was met with a barrage of ridicule from Greg_L.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive/Complete_rewrite_of_Units_of_Measurements_(June_2008)#Discussion_of_.E2.80.9CVote_Comments.E2.80.9D_4] Some elected to stay away rather than participate in such a mockery of a debate.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Greg_L#Evidence_of_disputed_behavior (under '''Evidence that editors stay away from MOSNUM due to disruptive behaviour''')]; see also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Omegatron/Binary_prefix_rationale Omegatron's statement]


Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Sixties Music,'' Virgin Books (UK), 1997.
==is there consensus for it now?==
*two attempts at starting a discussion were shouted down [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_104#Archive_B9][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_104#IEC_prefix_debate]
*in a 3rd attempt, still ongoing, at least 5 editors (Jeh, Seraphimblade, Thunderbird2, Tom94022, Woodstone) are arguing against the present wording[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)#Should_MOSNUM_continue_to_deprecate_IEC_prefixes.3F]. Those who dare to support their view are met with the ridicule from Greg_L:


Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Eighties Music'', Virgin Books (UK), 1997.
**[[Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29#This_MOSNUM_talk_page_has_officially_been_declared_a_.E2.80.9Cno_whining_zone.E2.80.9D|''This MOSNUM talk page has officially been declared a “no whining zone”'']],
**[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=224165628&oldid=224157385 “I want my IEC prefixes! I want my IEC prefixes! We had them for three years '''and I want them''' '''''baaaaack!'''''. Well… <u>tough</u>] and
**[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=225289931&oldid=225271125 ''Well, Anomie, do you feel better now after that little fourth-graders’ rant?'' ],
*a similar number is arguing for keeping the present wording. They are cheered on by Greg_L
**[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=223865628&oldid=223864892 ''Hallelujah, amen. Pass the collection plate and let’s get outa here''].
*the need to resort to these tactics to prevent even a discussion about the text demonstrates the weakness of the case for keeping it
*the ridicule tactic is not new [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Greg_L#Evidence_of_disputed_behavior]
* Policy statements
**[[Wikipedia:Consensus#Reasonable_consensus-building|Reasonable consensus-building]]: ''Consensus can only work among reasonable editors who make a [[Wikipedia:Assume good faith|good faith effort]] to work together in a [[Wikipedia:Civility|civil manner]].''
**[[Wikipedia:Consensus#Forum_shopping|Forum shopping]]: ''It is very easy to create the appearance of a changing consensus simply by asking again and hoping that a different and more sympathetic group of people will discuss the issue. This, however, is a poor example of changing consensus, and is antithetical to the way that Wikipedia works. Wikipedia's decisions are not based on the number of people who showed up and voted a particular way on a particular day; they are based on a system of good reasons.''
*see also the theses of [[User:Quilbert/IEC|Quilbert]] and [[User:Omegatron/Binary_prefix_rationale|Omegatron]] on their personal spaces


Larkin, Colin, (ed) ''The Virgin Illustrated Encyclopedia Of Rock'', Virgin Books (UK), 1998.
===not strictly related to consensus but indicative of how things were handled generally===
(also published in the USA as ''The Billboard Illustrated Encyclopedia Of Rock''. USA 1998)
*Woodstone had to vote about 5 times to get his vote even counted (it was removed repeatedly)
*On many occasions I could not edit the page because it was too big for my browser - that put me at a disadvantage because I was unable to respond to comments of others until after the discussion had passed them by; it may also have put off others, so perhaps there is a (minor) question of consensus here too. My request for splitting the discussion into more manageable sub-pages was ignored
*My own version of events is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_104#Discussion_of_events_leading_up_to_7_June_2008 here]
*Headbomb claims to be even-handed, but he:
** tolerated Greg_L's antics during the debate
** hounded me for answers to his questions while Fnagaton was accusing me of dishonesty, without so much as a request to Fnagaton to withdraw his accusation, despite the fact that I had stated this as a condition for answering them
** accused Omegatron of starting an edit war and ignored evidence to the contrary when presented to him
** presents biased evidence in his archive, leaving the tables of statistics showing that IEC prefixes are rarely used, while hiding all other evidence
** was one of the editors removing Woodstone's vote
===evidence that certain editors interpret the guideline as preferring ambiguity===
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Warren#MOSNUM_requires_unambiguous_units]
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Macintosh_Quadra_950]
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Power_Macintosh_5500]
===evidence that certain editors prefer the ambiguity===
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=223786531&oldid=223785362]


Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Fifties Music'', Virgin Books (UK), 1998.
==the case against deprecation==

#IEC prefixes are unambiguous, simple to use and simple to understand
Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Indie & New Wave'', Virgin Books (UK), 1998.
#the use of IEC prefixes is supported by national and international standards bodies ([[International_Electrotechnical_Commission|IEC]], [[BIPM]], [[IEEE]], [[NIST]])

#use of IEC prefixes in scientific publications is increasing: [http://scholar.google.nl/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=MiB+GiB&as_ylo=1999&as_yhi=2001&btnG=Search 1999-2001 (17 hits)]; [http://scholar.google.nl/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=MiB+GiB&as_ylo=2002&as_yhi=2004&btnG=Search 2002-2004 (34 hits)]; [http://scholar.google.nl/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=MiB+GiB&as_ylo=2005&as_yhi=2007&btnG=Search 2005-2007 (53 hits)]
Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''The Virgin Encyclopedia Of R&B And Soul'', Virgin Books (UK), 1998.
#the alternative (binary use of SI-like prefixes) is deprecated by the same standards bodies

#deprecation (of IEC prefixes) increases the difficulty threshold for disambiguation, reducing the rate at which articles can be disambiguated by expert editors
Larkin, Colin, ''The Virgin All-Time Top 1000 Albums'' (2nd Edition), Virgin Books (UK), 1998.
#in turn this reduces the total number of articles that can be further improved by less expert editors with footnotes etc (assuming that there is consensus to do so)

#deprecation is [[User:Quilbert/IEC#Articles_affected_by_the_new_MOSNUM_guideline_introduced_on_7_June_2008|interpreted by some editors]] as a justification for changing unambiguous units into ambiguous ones
Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Country Music'', Virgin Books (UK), 1998.
#removing IEC prefixes from articles, even when disambiguated with footnotes, destroys a part of the information that was there before, because it requires an expert to work out which footnote corresponds to which use in the article

# [[User:Omegatron/Binary_prefix_rationale|Omegatron's thesis]]
Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Reggae'', Virgin Books (UK), 1998.
# [[User:Quilbert/IEC|Quilbert's view]]

# in longer term the use of IEC units avoids need to use same symbol (eg MB) with two different meanings (could be implemented with a user preference)
Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Stage & Film Musicals'', Virgin Books (UK), 1999.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Heavy Rock'', Virgin Books (UK), 1999.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Jazz'' (3rd Edition), Virgin Books (UK), 1999.

Larkin, Colin, ''The Virgin All-Time Top 1000 Albums'' (Pocket Edition), Virgin Books (UK), 1999.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Dance Music'', Virgin Books (UK), 1999.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Stage & Film Musicals'', Virgin Books (UK), 1999.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Popular Music'', Concise (3rd Edition), Virgin Books (UK), 1999.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''The Encyclopedia Of Popular Music'' (3rd Edition, 8 vols). Macmillan (UK/USA) 1999

Larkin, Colin, ''All-Time Top 1000 Albums'' (3rd Edition), Virgin Books (UK), 2000.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Nineties Music'', Virgin Books (UK), 2000.

Larkin, Colin, (ed) ''The Virgin Illustrated Encyclopedia Of Pop & Rock'', Virgin Books (UK), 2002,(also published in the USA as ''The Billboard Illustrated Encyclopedia Of Pop & Rock'' (USA 2002).

Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''The Virgin Encyclopedia Of 60s Music'',(3rd Edition), Virgin Books (UK), 2002.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''The Virgin Encyclopedia Of 50s Music'', (3rd Edition), Virgin Books (UK), 2002.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''The Virgin Encyclopedia Of 70s Music'', (3rd Edition), Virgin Books (UK), 2002.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Popular Music'', Concise (4th Edition), Virgin Books (UK), 2002.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''The Virgin Encyclopedia Of 80s Music'', (3rd Edition), Virgin Books (UK), 2003.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''Virgin Encyclopedia Of Jazz'' (4th Edition), Virgin Books (UK), 2004.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), ''The Encyclopedia Of Popular Music'' (4th Edition 10 vols) Oxford University Press (UK/USA) 2006.

Larkin, Colin (ed.) ''The Encyclopedia of Popular Music: Concise 5th Edition'', Omnibus Press 2007.

==References==
{{reflist}}

==External Links==

* [http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article3068646.ece ''With a Head full of Hits'', Times Online]

* [http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/colin-larkin-how-i-stay-on-top-of-pop-694106.html ''Colin Larkin: How I stay on top of pop'', Independent]

* [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2006/12/07/bmlarkin07.xml ''Why I gave up my life for nine million words about pop'', Telegraph]

* [http://www.hi-arts.co.uk/Default.aspx.LocID-hianewmqf.RefLocID-hiacg5002001.Lang-EN.htm Founder, Editor & Writer of the World's Greatest Reference Book on Popular Music Comes to goNORTH!]

* [http://www.scena.org/blog/2007/12/sincerest-form-of-flattery.html ''The sincerest form of flattery'' La Scena Musicale]

* [http://www.oup.com/uk/catalogue/?ci=9780195313734 Oxford University Press]

* [http://blog.oup.com/2006/11/shoot_the_desig/ Shoot the Designer]

* [http://www.oxfordmusiconline.com/public/book/omo_epm Oxford Music online]


{{DEFAULTSORT:Larkin, Colin (writer)}}
[[Category:Living people]]
[[Category:English writers]]

Revision as of 13:27, 12 October 2008

Colin Larkin was the main writer, creative editor and founder of the internationally renowned Encyclopedia of Popular Music [1], described by Jools Holland as 'without question the most useful reference work on popular music' and by The Times as 'the standard against which all others must be judged’.[2]

Along with the ten volume encyclopedia, Larkin has produced countless notable offshoots, including the All-Time Top 1000 Albums [3], the Guinness Who’s Who Of Jazz[4], the Guinness Who’s Who Of Blues[5] and the Virgin Encyclopedia Of Heavy Rock[6]. The compiler of the most extensive database of popular music in Europe and the USA, a writer and book designer by trade, Larkin has over 650,000 copies in print to date.

Background and education

Colin Larkin was born in Dagenham, Essex (1949), in an area of London that was largely populated by workers in the car industry. The post-war years had proved lucrative for the Ford motor company [7], but Larkin was raised in relative poverty, in the largest area of council housing in the United Kingdom; in the suburban, industrial wasteland that surrounded the Ford plant. The Becontree estate in Dagenham began as a conglomeration of 27,000 "homes for heroes", and had no recognisable town centre.

A waltzer in motion. The operator walks the boards to spins the cars

Larkin spent much of his early childhood in the twilight world of the travelling fair, where his father, who worked by day as a plumber for the council, moonlighted on the waltzers to make ends meet. The contrast between daily life in the gas lit council houses on the Becontree estate and life amid the electricity guzzling, gaudy extravagance of the fairground, could not have been more marked. It was in the fairground, against a background of Little Richard on the wind-up 78 rpm turntables, Larkin acquired his passion for the world of popular music[8], and coincidentally, a taste for exotic pattern and vivid colour, which would re-surface in later years in books on Islamic Art and Architecture, and Oriental rugs.

In the 1950's he attended the South East Essex County Technical High School and from there he obtained an apprenticeship enabling him to take a sandwich course at the London College of Printing (now the London College of Communication). There he studied typography and book design.[9] and was influenced by the typeface designer Eric Gill, who is associated with the Arts and Crafts movement.

Back to Square One

Larkin began his working life in commercial art, advertising design groups and for the book publisher Pearson Longmans. In 1967 his vocation as a writer made its first appearance in the public domain, when he began writing for music journals and magazines. At Longmans he became senior book Designer/Art Editor, but he soon wearied of working for the publishing house and in 1976 he left to co-found his own book publishing company, Scorpion Publishing. From the outset Larkin was intent upon reaching areas of the book reading public that other publishers felt it unnecessary or unprofitable to reach. In 1976 he was the Art Director of the World Of Islam Festival in London. Scorpion Publishing, published art books on Oriental carpets and Islamic Art. They also designed and published John Gorman's trilogy of Labour Party history; Banner Bright [10],To Build Jerusalem and Images Of Labour [11].

Notable music titles at this time included Timeless Flight: The Definitive Story of The Byrds[12] and Bob Dylan’s Unreleased Recordings.[13]

In the 1980's the idea of "an encyclopedia of popular music" was beginning to take hold of Larkin, who read music magazines avidly and was acquiring a considerable personal library of singles and Albums. His passion for an encyclopedia that would do for Bob Dylan and the Beatles, what Groves had done for 'supposedly' more worthy subjects, finally took over when in 1989 he sold his half of Scorpion Books, in order to fund the project and founded Square One Books to realise an idealist's dream.

The Encyclopedia of Popular Music

In 1990 Larkin formed Square One Books to create a multi-volume Encyclopedia of Popular Music, and to publish music related books. Aided by a team of around 70 contributors, a fast growing library of music magazines and records, and an unrivalled passion for his subject, in a pre-internet age, he began compiling the 'data' that would form the basis of the encyclopedia. For the next three years two things were to consume his life, his young son, who was fighting a long slow battle with leukemia, and music, his strongest supporter. In 1992 his son lost the battle, and the first edition of the Encyclopedia of Popular Music went into print.[14] It was a four volume testament to passion in the face of adversity, that had driven Larkin almost to brink of bankruptcy, and was quickly recognised as such: Rolling Stone magazine described the work as "musical history in the making", in The Times they called it "A work of almost frightening completeness".

(pending)

Books

Larkin, Colin (ed.), Guinness Who’s Who Of Jazz, Guinness Publishing (UK), 1992.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), Guinness Who’s Who Of Sixties Music, Guinness Publishing (UK), 1992.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), Guinness Who’s Who Of Indie And New Wave Music, Guinness Publishing (UK), 1992.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), Guinness Who’s Who Of Heavy Metal, Guinness Publishing (UK), 1992.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), Guinness Encyclopedia Of Popular Music (1st Edition, 4 Vols), Guinness Publishing 1992.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), Guinness Encyclopedia Of Popular Music Concise Edition, Guinness Publishing 1993.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), Guinness Who’s Who Of Seventies Music, Guinness Publishing (UK), 1993.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), Guinness Who’s Who Of Folk Music, Guinness Publishing (UK), 1993.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), Guinness Who’s Who Of Soul Music, Guinness Publishing (UK), 1993.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), Guinness Who’s Who Of Blues, Guinness Publishing (UK), 1993.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), Guinness Who’s Who Of Fifties Music, Guinness Publishing (UK), 1993.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), Guinness Who’s Who Of Country Music, Guinness Publishing (UK), 1993.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), Guinness Who’s Who Of Stage Musicals , Guinness Publishing (UK), 1994.

Larkin, Colin, All Time Top 1000 Albums, Guinness Publishing (UK), 1994.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), Guinness Who’s Who Of Rap, Dance & Techno, Guinness Publishing (UK), 1994.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), Guinness Who’s Who Of Film Musicals & Musical Films, Guinness Publishing 1994

Larkin, Colin (ed.), Guinness Who’s Who Of Reggae, Guinness Publishing (UK), 1994.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), Guinness Who's Who Of Jazz (2nd Edition), Guinness Publishing (UK), 1995.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), Guinness Encyclopedia Of Popular Music (2nd Edition, 6 Vols), Guinness 1995 (UK),

Larkin, Colin (ed.), Guinness Who’s Who Of Indie And New Wave (2nd Edition), Guinness Publishing 1995.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), Guinness Who’s Who Of Blues (2nd Edition), Guinness Publishing (UK), 1995.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), Guinness Who’s Who Of Heavy Metal (2nd Edition), Guinness Publishing (UK), 1995.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Popular Music, Concise Edition, Virgin Books (UK), 1997.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Seventies Music, Virgin Books (UK), 1997.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Sixties Music, Virgin Books (UK), 1997.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Eighties Music, Virgin Books (UK), 1997.

Larkin, Colin, (ed) The Virgin Illustrated Encyclopedia Of Rock, Virgin Books (UK), 1998. (also published in the USA as The Billboard Illustrated Encyclopedia Of Rock. USA 1998)

Larkin, Colin (ed.), The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Fifties Music, Virgin Books (UK), 1998.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Indie & New Wave, Virgin Books (UK), 1998.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), The Virgin Encyclopedia Of R&B And Soul, Virgin Books (UK), 1998.

Larkin, Colin, The Virgin All-Time Top 1000 Albums (2nd Edition), Virgin Books (UK), 1998.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Country Music, Virgin Books (UK), 1998.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Reggae, Virgin Books (UK), 1998.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Stage & Film Musicals, Virgin Books (UK), 1999.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Heavy Rock, Virgin Books (UK), 1999.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Jazz (3rd Edition), Virgin Books (UK), 1999.

Larkin, Colin, The Virgin All-Time Top 1000 Albums (Pocket Edition), Virgin Books (UK), 1999.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Dance Music, Virgin Books (UK), 1999.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Stage & Film Musicals, Virgin Books (UK), 1999.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Popular Music, Concise (3rd Edition), Virgin Books (UK), 1999.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), The Encyclopedia Of Popular Music (3rd Edition, 8 vols). Macmillan (UK/USA) 1999

Larkin, Colin, All-Time Top 1000 Albums (3rd Edition), Virgin Books (UK), 2000.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Nineties Music, Virgin Books (UK), 2000.

Larkin, Colin, (ed) The Virgin Illustrated Encyclopedia Of Pop & Rock, Virgin Books (UK), 2002,(also published in the USA as The Billboard Illustrated Encyclopedia Of Pop & Rock (USA 2002).

Larkin, Colin (ed.), The Virgin Encyclopedia Of 60s Music,(3rd Edition), Virgin Books (UK), 2002.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), The Virgin Encyclopedia Of 50s Music, (3rd Edition), Virgin Books (UK), 2002.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), The Virgin Encyclopedia Of 70s Music, (3rd Edition), Virgin Books (UK), 2002.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), The Virgin Encyclopedia Of Popular Music, Concise (4th Edition), Virgin Books (UK), 2002.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), The Virgin Encyclopedia Of 80s Music, (3rd Edition), Virgin Books (UK), 2003.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), Virgin Encyclopedia Of Jazz (4th Edition), Virgin Books (UK), 2004.

Larkin, Colin (ed.), The Encyclopedia Of Popular Music (4th Edition 10 vols) Oxford University Press (UK/USA) 2006.

Larkin, Colin (ed.) The Encyclopedia of Popular Music: Concise 5th Edition, Omnibus Press 2007.

References

  1. ^ Larkin, Colin (ed.), The Encyclopedia Of Popular Music (4th Edition 10 vols) Oxford University Press (UK/USA) 2006
  2. ^ This information was obtained from Hi-Arts.co.uk
  3. ^ Larkin, Colin, All-Time Top 1000 Albums (3rd Edition), Virgin Books (UK), 2000.
  4. ^ Larkin, Colin (ed.), Guinness Who's Who Of Jazz (2nd Edition), Guinness Publishing (UK), 1995
  5. ^ Larkin, Colin (ed.), Guinness Who’s Who Of Blues (2nd Edition), Guinness Publishing (UK), 1995
  6. ^ Larkin, Colin (ed.), Virgin Encyclopedia Of Heavy Rock, The, Virgin Books (UK), 1999.
  7. ^ The number of workers on the Dagenham site increased from 12,000 to 35,000 as Ford met the demand of 360,000 military vehicles, vans and army trucks. History of Ford in Britain
  8. ^ Who'd Put the Everley Brothers above Elvis, Evening Standard 20th December 2006.
  9. ^ All about the guru of groove, Colin Larkin, editor of The Encyclopedia of Popular Music Oxford University Press online
  10. ^ Banner Bright, Gorman J., Scorpion Cavendish Ltd; Rev Edition(5 Nov 1986)
  11. ^ Images of labour : selected memorabilia from the National Museum of Labour History Gorman, J. (1985) , London. London: Scorpion.
  12. ^ Timeless Flight: The Definitive Story of The Byrds, Rogan, J., Scorpion Publications / Dark Star, London, 1981 Abe Books
  13. ^ All about the guru of groove, Colin Larkin, editor of The Encyclopedia of Popular Music OUP.com
  14. ^ With a head full of hits, The Knowledge, The Times, Dec 22 - Jan 4th, 2008.

External Links

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