Talk:Eugenics and Bernadette Soubirous: Difference between pages

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{{Infobox Saint
{{skiptotoctalk}}
|name=Saint Bernadette
{{DelistedGA|28 January 2007}}
|birth_date=[[January 7]], [[1844]]
{{talkheader}}
|death_date=[[April 16]], [[1879]]
{{controversial}}
|feast_day=[[February 18]] (in [[France]])<br>[[April 16]] (everywhere else)
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1=
|venerated_in=[[Roman Catholic Church]]
{{WikiProject Genetics|class=|importance=|imageneeded=|imagedetails=|unref=|nested=yes}}{{HistSci|nested=yes |class=B|importance=Mid}}
|image=Bernadette Soubirous.png
{{WikiProject Sociology|nested=yes |class=B|importance=Mid}}
|imagesize=200px
{{EvolWikiProject|nested=yes |class=B|importance=Mid}}
|caption=Bernadette of Lourdes
{{WikiProject Discrimination|nested=yes |class=B|importance=High}}
|birth_place=[[Lourdes]], [[France]]
{{philosophy|importance=|class=B|ethics=yes|nested=yes|social=yes}}
|death_place=[[Nevers]], [[France]]
|titles=
|beatified_date=
|beatified_place=
|beatified_by=
|canonized_date=[[December 8]], [[1933]]
|canonized_place=[[Rome]]
|canonized_by=[[Pope Pius XI]]
|attributes=
|patronage=Sick people, poverty, the family, [[Lourdes]], [[shepherds]]
|major_shrine=[[Lourdes]]
|suppressed_date=
|issues=
|prayer=Nothing is anything more to me; everything is nothing to me, but Jesus: neither things nor persons, neither ideas nor emotions, neither honor nor sufferings. Jesus is for me honor, delight, heart and soul.
|prayer_attrib=St. Bernadette
}}
}}
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{| class="infobox" width="270px"
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!align="center"|[[Image:Vista-file-manager.png|50px|Archive]]<br/>[[Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page|Archives]]
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|-
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*[[Talk:Eugenics/Archive 1 | Archive 1]]: Jun 2005 and earlier
*[[Talk:Eugenics/Archive 2 | Archive 2]]: Jun 2005–Aug 2005
*[[Talk:Eugenics/Archive 3 | Archive 3]]: Sept 2005–Jan 2007
|}
== GA problems ==


'''Saint Bernadette''' (born Marie-Bernarde Soubirous; [[January 7]] [[1844]] – [[April 16]] [[1879]]), was a [[Miller|miller's]] daughter from the town of [[Lourdes]] in southern [[France]]. From February 11 to [[July 16]], [[1858]], she reported eighteen [[Marian apparitions|apparitions]] of "a Lady". Despite initial skepticism from the [[Catholic Church]], these claims were eventually declared to be worthy of belief after a [[canonical]] investigation, and the apparition is known as [[Our Lady of Lourdes]]. After her death, Bernadette's body remained incorrupt, and the shrine at Lourdes went on to become a major site for [[pilgrimage]], attracting millions of Catholics each year. On [[December 8]], [[1933]] she was [[canonization|canonized]] as a [[saint]] by the [[Catholic Church]]; her Feast Day is celebrated on April 16.
I'm not sure why this article passed GA, but it has some striking problems. For one thing, citations are too sparse and scattere around; at least every paragraph should have one citation. This article has an {{tl|ActiveDiscuss}} and a {{tl|unreferenced}} tag, as well as several {{tl|fact}} tags, which indicates that it's going through active changes (fails 5, stability) and everything isn't verified (2c). [[User:Hbdragon88|Hbdragon88]] 00:15, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


==Early life==
:Article sent to [[WP:GA/R]]. [[User:Hbdragon88|Hbdragon88]] 02:03, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


Bernadette (the [[sobriquet]] by which she was universally known) was the daughter of François Soubirous (1807–1871), a [[miller]], and his wife Louise (née Castérot) (1825–1866), a [[laundry|laundress]], and was the eldest of five children who survived infancy. Louise actually gave birth to nine children (Bernadette, Jean died when born, Jean-Marie 1848–1851, Toinette 1846, Jean-Marie b. 1851, Justin 1855–1865, Bernard-Pierre b. 1859, Jean 1864–1864 and a baby girl named Louise 1866–1866). Bernadette was baptized at the local parish church, [[St. Pierre]]'s, on January 9, which was her parents' wedding anniversary. Bernadette's godmother was Bernarde Casterot, her mother's sister. Hard times had fallen on France and the family lived in extreme poverty. Neighbours reported that the family lived in unusual harmony, apparently relying on their love and support for one another and their religious devotion.
== Post-Holocaust Science? ==


==Visions==
Does anyone know of a good Wikipedia article that deals generally with the impact of the Holocaust on scientific norms? <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Superabo|Superabo]] ([[User talk:Superabo|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Superabo|contribs]]) 02:56, 12 January 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->
Bernadette's impoverished family lived in a tiny room shared between a whole family. On [[February 11]] [[1858]], Bernadette, then aged 14, was out gathering firewood and bones with her sister and a friend at the [[grotto]] of Massabielle outside Lourdes, when she had an experience that completely changed her life and the town of Lourdes where she had lived. It was on this day that Bernadette had the first of 18 visions of what she termed "a small young lady" (''uo petito damizelo'') standing in a niche in the rock. Her sister and her friend stated that they had seen nothing. On her next visit, she said that the "beautiful lady" asked her to return to the grotto every day for fifteen days. At first her mother had forbidden her from going but Bernadette persuaded her mother to allow her to go. The apparition did not identify herself until the seventeenth vision, although the townspeople who believed she was telling the truth assumed she saw the Virgin Mary. Bernadette never claimed it to be Mary, calling what she saw simply "Aquerò" (or rather "that thing"), ''aquerò'' ([[IPA]] [a'k(e)rɔ]) being [[Gascon]] [[Occitan]] for ''that''. Bernadette described the lady as wearing a white veil, a blue girdle and had a golden rose on each foot; she held a rosary of pearls.


Bernadette's story caused a sensation with the townspeople, who were divided in their opinions on whether or not Bernadette was telling the truth. She soon had a large number of people following her on her daily journey, some out of curiosity and others who firmly believed that they were witnessing a miracle.
:[[Nuremberg Code]] is a good start. --[[User:Fastfission|Fastfission]] 15:20, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
[[Image:Bernadette Soubiroust - Project Gutenberg eText 18729.jpg|thumb|right|Bernadette Soubirous]]


The other contents of Bernadette's visions were simple, and focused on the need for prayer and penance. However, at the thirteenth of the alleged apparition on March 2, Bernadette told her family that the lady had said "Please go to the priests and tell them that a chapel is to be built here. Let processions come hither." Accompanied by two of her aunts, Bernadette duly went to parish priest Father [[Dominique Peyramale]] with the request. A brilliant but often roughspoken man with little belief in claims of visions and miracles, Peyramale told Bernadette that the lady must identify herself. Bernadette said that on her next visitation she repeated the priest's words to the lady, but that the lady bowed a little, smiled and said nothing. Then Father Peyramale told Bernadette to prove that the lady was real (that is, objectively) by asking her to perform a miracle. He requested that she make the rose bush beneath the niche where she appeared to Bernadette bud and flower in the middle of February.
== Reason why Article was Delisted as GA ==
===[[Eugenics]]===
:'''result:Delist 4-0'''
Article has some striking problems. For one thing, citations are too sparse and scattere around; at least every paragraph should have one citation. This article has an {{tl|ActiveDiscuss}} and a {{tl|unreferenced}} tag, as well as several {{tl|fact}} tags, which indicates that it's going through active changes (fails #5) and everything isn't verified (#2c). Issues not fixed after six days. [[User:Hbdragon88|Hbdragon88]] 02:03, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
*What is this, an article on an MMORPG? "Special abilities may only appear after many generations down the road in a very different environment". The intro also doesn't attribute the opinions it espouses, '''Delist'''. [[User:Homestarmy|Homestarmy]] 02:33, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
*'''Delist'''. has neutrality and cite needed tags.[[User:Sumoeagle179|Sumoeagle179]] 11:09, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
*'''Delist'''. per Sumoeagle179. [[User:Rlevse|Rlevse]] 16:20, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
*'''Delist''' per above [[User:Teemu08|Teemu08]] 23:12, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


As Bernadette later reported to her family and to church and civil investigators, at the ninth visitation the lady told Bernadette to drink from the spring that flowed under the rock, and eat the plants that grew freely there. Although there was no known spring, and the ground was muddy, Bernadette saw the lady pointing with her finger to the spot, and said later she assumed the lady meant that the spring was underground. She did as she was told by first digging a muddy patch with her bare hands and then attempting to drink the brackish drops.<ref>The following account is reported by Abbé François Trochu in his biography, ''Saint Bernadette Soubirous'', Tan Books: Illinois, 1985.</ref> She tried three times, failing each time. On the fourth try, the droplets were clearer and she drank them. She then ate some of the plants. When finally she turned to the crowd, her face was smeared with mud and no spring had been revealed. Understandably, this caused much skepticism among onlookers who shouted, "She's a fraud!" or "She's insane!" while embarrassed relatives wiped the adolescent's face clean with a handkerchief. In the next few days, however, a spring began to flow from the muddy patch first dug by Bernadette. Some devout people followed her example by drinking and washing in the water, which was soon reported to have healing properties.
This is the consensus to delist. [[User:Diez2|Diez2]] 17:13, 28 January 2007 (UTC)


[[Image:VirgendeLourdes.JPG|thumb|right|Statue of Our Lady of Lourdes in [[Lourdes]], [[France]].]]
==[[Patrick Matthew]]-eugenic selection of trees==
In the 150 years since Bernadette dug up the spring, 67 cures have been "verified" by the [[Lourdes Medical Bureau]] as "inexplicable", but only after what the Church claims are "extremely rigorous scientific and medical examinations" failed to find any other explanation. The Lourdes Commission which examined Bernadette after the visions also ran an intensive analysis on the water, and found that while it has a high mineral content, it contains nothing out of the ordinary that would account for the cures attributed to it. Bernadette herself said that it was faith and prayer that cured the sick.
Factoid: If ''you'' think the history of "eugenics" only applied to Humans, (and I assume the idea means to apply to any 'Selective Genetics'), then why does a nice article on a Timely, Forerunner to Darwin, Russell et al, talk of:


Her 16th vision, which she stated went on for over an hour, was on March 25. During this vision, the second of two "miracles of the candle" is reported to have occurred. Bernadette was holding a lighted candle; during the vision it burned down, and the flame was said to be in direct contact with her skin for over fifteen minutes, but she apparently showed no sign of experiencing any pain or injury. This was said to be witnessed by many people present, including the town physician, Dr. Pierre Romaine Dozous, who timed and later documented it. According to his report, there was no sign that her skin was in any way affected, so he monitored Bernadette closely but did not intervene. After her "vision" ended, the doctor said that he examined her hand but found no evidence of any burning, and that she was completely unaware of what had been happening. The doctor then said that he briefly applied a lighted candle to her hand, and she reacted immediately. It is unclear if observers other than Dozous were sufficiently close to witness if the candle was continuously in contact with Bernadette’s skin.
:"..Matthew noted the long-term deleterious effect of dysgenic [[artificial selection]]&mdash;the culling of only the trees of highest timber quality from forests&mdash;on the quality of timber. In an appendix to the book, he elaborated on how eugenic artificial selection&mdash;the elimination of trees of poor timber quality&mdash;could be used...."


According to Bernadette's account, during that same visitation she again asked the lady her name but the lady just smiled back. She repeated the question three more times and finally heard the lady say, in [[Occitan]], "I am the Immaculate Conception" (''Qué soï era immaculado councepcioũ'', a phonetic transcription of ''Que soi era immaculada concepcion'' by someone not literate in Occitan). Four years earlier, [[Pope Pius IX]] had [[promulgate]]d the doctrine of the [[Immaculate Conception]]; that, alone of all human beings who have ever lived (save for Jesus, Adam, and Eve), the [[Virgin Mary]] was conceived without the stain of [[original sin]]. However, this was not well known to Catholics at large at that time, being generally confined to discussion amongst the clergy. Those who did know about it, through devotions such as the [[St. Catherine Laboure|Miraculous Medal]], often assumed it referred to the [[Virgin Birth]]. It certainly was not an expression known to a simple under-educated peasant girl who could barely read. Her parents, teachers and priests all later testified that she had never previously heard the words 'immaculate conception' from them.
eugenically selectiing organisms? I am not advocating the ''adjectival'' usage of the word. But my goodness, it took a year to get the concept of ''[[Saltation]]'' into Wikipedia, and still is relevant to [[Punctuated equilibrium]]. All human beings before of us have noticed certain things, and wrote about them, or at least acted upon them. If this "Eugenics" Article is just the "History of 20th century World", then it should be labelled as such, and the concept of "Selective breeding", Eugenics, and whatever else should be explained in the first paragraph. If the Eugenics intends to only talk about the history of the 20th C. it should state that in the first Paragraph.


Bernadette was a sickly child; she had cholera in infancy and suffered most of her life from asthma, and some of the people who interviewed her following her revelation of the visions thought her simple-minded. However, despite being rigorously interviewed by officials of both the Catholic Church and the French government, she stuck consistently to her story. Her behavior during this period is said to set the example by which all who claim visions and mystical experiences are now judged by Church authorities.
Mr Patrick Matthew was talking about a eugenic problem in England about 40 years before Darwin did his thing. (from the ArizonaSonora deserts.. -[[User:Mmcannis|Mmcannis]] 21:15, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


==Impact of her visions==
And if "clear-cutters" of tree stands refuse to leave abundant "seed-tree groups" of the best trees, then they are.. S t u p i d. That is why there is a term: selective genetics. Matthew observed this "Humanoid-Action-Greed-Stupidity-Problem"... [[User:Mmcannis|Mmcannis]] 21:15, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Among the reported [[visions of Jesus and Mary]] the impact of her visions can be viewed as being proportionally of a high level of significance.


Her request to the local priest to build a chapel at the site of her visions eventually gave rise to a number of chapels and churches at Lourdes. The [[Sanctuary of Our Lady of Lourdes]] is now one of the major Catholic pilgrimage sites in the world. One of the churches built at the site, the [[Basilica of St. Pius X]] can itself accommodate 25,000 people and was dedicated by the future [[Pope John XXIII]] when he was the Papal Nuncio to France.
On a further note, "selective genetics"/Eugenics in unintended ways occurs: (as people migrate, or emigrate From, or immigrate To).. [[User:Mmcannis|Mmcannis]] 21:15, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


Close to 5,000,000 pilgrims visit [[Lourdes]] (population of about 15,000) every year, with individuals and groups coming from all over the world. Within France, only Paris has more hotels than Lourdes. With 2008 being the 150th anniversary of the 1858 apprations to Bernadette, it is expected that 8,000,000 pilgrims will vistit Lourdes during the year. Lourdes is now a major center where Catholic pilgrims from around the globe reinforce their beliefs as they visit the sanctuary, hence strengthening the [[Catholic Church]] as a whole.
:Eugenics is artificial selection applied to humans. What you are talking about is artificial selection. You have put the cart before the horse. --[[User:24.147.86.187|24.147.86.187]] 21:47, 21 May 2007 (UTC)


==Later years==
== Eugenics in Latin America ==
Disliking the attention she was attracting, Bernadette went to the [[Hospice care|hospice]] school run by the Sisters of Charity and Christian Instruction, where she finally learned to read and write. She then joined the [[Sisters of Charity of Nevers]] [[abbey|convent]] moving into their motherhouse at [[Nevers]] at the age of 22. She spent the rest of her brief life there, working as an assistant in the infirmary and later as a [[Sacristy|sacristan]], creating beautiful [[embroidery]] for altar cloths and [[vestments]]. During a severe asthma attack, she asked for [[Lourdes water|water from the Lourdes spring]], and her symptoms subsided, never to return {{Fact|date=October 2007}}. However, she did not seek healing in this way when she later contracted [[tuberculosis]] of the bone in the right knee. She had followed the development of Lourdes as a pilgrimage [[shrine]] while she still lived at Lourdes, but was not present for the consecration of the [[Sanctuary of Our Lady of Lourdes|Basilica of the Immaculate Conception]] there in 1876. She eventually died of her long-term illness at the age of 35 on [[April 16]], [[1879]].


She was canonized on [[December 8]], [[1933]] as the Catholic [[patron saint]] of sick persons, of the family, and of poverty.
I have removed a text about "Eugenics in Latin America" that put great emphasis in "state policies" in Brazil without providing any data or reference for such. There never were any laws related to eugenics in Brazil at all. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/201.72.218.8|201.72.218.8]] ([[User talk:201.72.218.8|talk]]) 04:58, 30 March 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->


2009 has been declared "The Year of Bernadette".
See Nancy Stepan's The Hour of eugenics and article work. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/203.184.7.97|203.184.7.97]] ([[User talk:203.184.7.97|talk]]) 03:12, 20 October 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


==John Linder==
==Exhumations==
[[Image:StB.jpg|thumb|300px|St. Bernadette Soubirous at Nevers was exhumed in 1909 after thirty years in a damp grave. She is pictured here with a thin wax mask.]]
Bishop Gauthey of Nevers and the Church [[exhumation|exhumed]] the body of Bernadette Soubirous on [[September 22]], [[1909]], in the presence of representatives appointed by the postulators of the cause, two doctors, and a sister of the community. They found that although the [[crucifix]] in her hand and the [[rosary]] had both [[redox|oxidized]], her body appeared [[Incorruptibility|"incorrupt"]]—preserved from [[decomposition]]. This was cited as one of the miracles to support her canonization. They washed and reclothed her body before burial in a new double casket.


The Church exhumed the corpse a second time on [[April 3]], [[1919]]. The body still appeared preserved, however, her face was slightly discolored possibly due to the washing process (by the sisters) of the first exhumation.
Will Beback, what specifically is your objection to the use of Congressman Linder's op-ed as a source? The ''Washington Times'' is not some tabloid paper. --[[User:Don't lose that number|Don&#39;t lose that number]] 15:25, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
:His opinion in this matter isn't notable. It's just an opinion by a mid-level politician with no expertise in the topic. He's making a political point which doesn't add any information to the article, and which appears based on a lack of actual research. -[[User:Will Beback|Will Beback]] · [[User talk:Will Beback|†]] · 22:24, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


In 1925, the church exhumed the body for a third time. They took [[relic]]s, which were sent to Rome. A precise imprint of the face was molded so that the firm of Pierre Imans in Paris could make a light wax mask based on the imprints and on some genuine photos. This was common practice for relics in France, as it was feared that although the body was uncorrupted, the blackish tinge to the face and the sunken eyes and nose would make an unpleasant impression on the public. Imprints of the hands were also taken for the presentation of the body. The remains were then placed in a [[gold]] and [[crystal]] reliquary in the Chapel of Saint Bernadette at the mother house in [[Nevers]]. The site is visited by many pilgrims and the body of Saint Bernadette to this day remains intact despite being nearly one hundred and thirty years old.<ref>''[http://www.catholicpilgrims.com/lourdes/bb_bernadette_body.htm The Body of St. Bernadette]'' at Catholic Pilgrims of Mary and Jesus website</ref>
== Huxley ==


==Fictional treatments==
:They claim, for example, that Planned Parenthood was funded and cultivated by the Eugenics Society for these reasons. <s>Former</s> Eugenics Society president Julian Huxley became the first Director-General of UNESCO and a founder of the World Wildlife Fund. [35]
Her life was given a fictionalised treatment in [[Franz Werfel]]'s novel ''[[The Song of Bernadette (novel)|The Song of Bernadette]]'', which was later adapted into a [[The Song of Bernadette (film)|1943 film of the same name]] starring [[Jennifer Jones (actor)|Jennifer Jones]] as Bernadette (and the uncredited [[Linda Darnell]] as the Immaculate Conception). Jones won her only [[Academy Award for Best Actress|Best Actress]] [[Academy Award|Oscar]] for this portrayal. In 1961 Daniele Ajoret portrayed Bernadette in "Bernadette of Lourdes". A more recent version of Bernadette's life is presented in two films (1988: "Bernadette" and 1989: "The Passion of Bernadette") by [[Jean Delannoy]], and starring [[Sydney Penny]] in the lead role.


==Notes and references==
While I appreciate the above is referenced, I'm somewhat concerned about it as it appears misleading. I've removed the word former to try and improve it. The issue here is it appears to be suggesting Huxley was involved in the Eugenics Society and then abandoned it to join UNESCO and WWF. But in reality, UNESCO was formed a long time before Huxley became Eugenics Society president and the WWF was formed while he was president. Huxley appears to have maintaned links to the eugenics society throughout his life.[http://www.galtoninstitute.org.uk/Newsletters/GINL9912/julian_huxley.htm] Whether or whether not Huxley's involvment in WWF and UNESCO has anything to do with his eugenics ideas, it's quite clear he didn't suddenly abandone the eugenics movement and so we have to be careful that this is clear [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] 00:57, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
{{reflist}}


==Bibliography==
I've improved it some more [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eugenics&diff=127301502&oldid=127299663]. It seems decent to me now since it makes it clear these were simulataneous interests [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] 01:00, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
* [http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/essays/miracle_lourdes.html The Miracle Joint at Lourdes] From "Essays " by Woolsey Teller, Copyright 1945 by The Truth Seeker Company, Inc. Critique of the Lourdes story.
* ''Lourdes: In Bernadette's Footsteps'', by Father Joseph Bordes, Copyright 2005 by MSM Company - Tells Bernadette's story, and describes the tourism at Lourdes.
* [http://www.bernadette-of-lourdes.co.uk/ The Song of Bernadette] Franz Werfel's classic abridged by John Martin
* Bernadette of Lourdes (St. Gildard, Nevers, France, 1926)
* Visage de Bernadette (Rene Laurentin, Lourdes 1978), (French)
* The Song of Bernadette (Franz Werfel), 1942 (English)
* A La Glorie du Lys de Marie (Sisters of Nevers), August 15, 1926 (French)
* Bernadette of Lourdes (Frances Parkinson Keyes), 1955
* Lourdes: Its Inhabitants, Its Pilgrims, and Its Miracles (Richard Clarke, SJ), 1888
* Annales de Notre Dame de Lourdes (Missionaries of the Immaculate Conception), Lourdes 1871 (French)
* The Wonders of Massabielle at Lourdes (Rev. S. Pruvost), 1925
* Notre Dame de Lourdes (Henri Lasserre), Paris 1870 (French)
* Bernadette (Henri Lasserre), Paris 1879 (year of Bernadette's death), (French)
* Our Lady of Lourdes (Henri Lasserre), June 1906 (English)
* Our Lady of Lourdes (Henri Lasserre), 1875 (English)
* La Sainte Virge a Lourdes, 1877 (French)
* Das Lied von Bernadette (Franz Werfel), 1953 (German)
* The Happening at Lourdes (Alan Neame), 1967
* Lourdes (Ruth Harris), 1999
* After Bernadette (Don Sharkey), 1945
* And I Shall Be Healed (Edeltraud Fulda), 1960
* Saint Bernadette (Margaret Trouncer), 1964
* 15 Days of Prayer with Sainte Bernadette of Lourdes (Francois Vayne), 1999
* A Queen's Command (Anna Kuhn), 1947
* Bernadette (Marcelle Auclair), 1958
* A Holy Life: St. Bernadette of Lourdes (Patricia McEachern), 2005
* The Story of Bernadette (Rev. J. Lane), 1997
* The Wonder of Lourdes (John Oxenham), 1926
* Lourdes (Émile Zola), 1895 (German)
* Bernadette Speaks (Rene Laurentin), 2000
* St. Bernadette (Leonard Von Matt / Francis Trochu), 1957
* Bernadette of Lourdes (J.H. Gregory), 1914 (1st U.S. book)
* Bernadette of Lourdes (Therese Taylor), 2003
* Lourdes (Émile Zola), 2000 (English)
* The Miracle of Bernadette (Margaret Gray Blanton), 1958
* My Witness, Bernadette (J.B. Estrade), 1951
* St. Bernadette Soubirous (Abbe Francois Trochu), 1957
* Saint Bernadette Soubirous (Francis Trochu), 1957
* We Saw Her (B.G. Sandhurst), 1953


===Magazines and articles===
:It is a tricky road to hoe, wanting to keep the language NPOV on both sides of the fence. That said, I concurr with your general want to stay accurate, & I think your most recent version supports NPOV. Hooray! --[[User:Mordicai|mordicai.]] 01:10, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
* "L'Illustration Journal Universal": Story covering Bernadette and apparitions from time of apparitions (October 23, 1858)
* Election of Pope Pius X (August 15, 1903): "The Graphic" England
* "The Illustrated London News": Funeral of Pope Pius IX (February 23, 1878)
* "La Nacion" - Buenos Aires, Argentina (Newspaper Movie section advertising The Song of Bernadette (September 12, 1944)
* "The New York Times": Pope Pius X Dies, (August 20, 1914)
* "The London Ilustrated News": The Election of Pope Pius XI (February 11, 1922)
* "L'Opinion Publique": The Funeral of Pope Pius IX (March 14, 1878)
* "The Illustrated London News": The Conclave & Election of the Pope (March 9, 1878)
* "The Graphic": With the Lourdes Pilgrims (October 7, 1876)
* "Harpers Weekly": French Pilgrims - Romish Superstitions (November 16, 1872)
* "The Graphic": A Trip to the Pyrenees (October 12, 1872)
* "Harpers Weekly": The Last French Miracle (November 20, 1858) - Recounts actual happenings at the time of apparitions
* "St. Paul Dispatch": Throne of St. Peter Made Vacant by the Death of Pope Leo XIII, (July 21, 1903)
* "St. Paul Dispatch": Cardinal Sarto (St. Pope Pius X) of Venice Called to Throne of St. Peter, (August 5, 1903)
* "The Minneapolis Journal": Pope Pius X is Reported Dead; Relapse Caused by Grief Over War (August 19, 1914)


==External links==
== Logical fallacies, scientific inaccuracies, genetic diversity ==
{{commonscat|Bernadette Soubirous}}
*[http://www.marypages.com/bernadetteEng.htm Lourdes and Bernadette] Detailed chronology of the apparitions, with many pictures.
*[http://www.ichrusa.com/saintsalive/bernad.htm Bernadette as she is today]
*[http://www.biographyonline.net/spiritual/bernadette-soubirious.html Biography of Bernadette Soubirous] Includes referenced quotes by Bernadette
*[http://www.catholicpilgrims.com/lourdes/ba_bernadette_intro.htm The Body of St. Bernadette]--Includes reports of her exhumation and photographs of her body and tomb.
*[http://www.sainte-bernadette-nevers.com/anglais/soeurs_soeurs.htm The Sisters of Charity and Christian Instruction]
*[http://www.bernadette-of-lourdes.co.uk/bernadette-of-lourdes.htm Life and Background to Bernadette Soubirous of Lourdes]
*[http://www.catholicpilgrims.com/lourdes/bh_investigation.htm Notes on the Investigation], including facsimile of notes taken during an interview with Bernadette
*[http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09389b.htm Catholic Encyclopedia: ''Notre-Dame de Lourdes'']
* {{findagrave|3243}}


{{DEFAULTSORT:Soubirous, Bernadette}}
This article is a very poorly done effort that is far too supportive of the ¨science¨ and barely touches upon basic scientific principals which are contradictiory to it. Why is it that after the critisism area of the article that counter-arguements are allowed to be presented against the critisisms? How objective is this, really? After the counter-arguements are we going to have counter-counter-arguements to even things out? And after that, counter-counter-counter arguements? Isn´t that what the talk page is for? This really would become old quickly, although I would agree that all sides of the issues ought be able to address claims made by the other that they view as unsubstantiated, I believe that the cases for and against should be laid out WITHIN the main text of the article and that the critisism ought to be incorporated directly into the article itself at every point of contention.
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[[br:Bernadette Soubirous]]
Second, the subject of dysgenics, that society is losing an average of x IQ points every generation, makes absolutely no sense given the Flynn effect.
[[ca:Bernadette Soubirous]]

[[da:Bernadette Soubirous]]
http://cranepsych.com/Psych/Rising_Scores_on_IQ_tests.pdf
[[de:Bernadette Soubirous]]

[[es:Bernadette Soubirous]]
Either those in support of eugenics for the support of enhancing human intellect must accept that dysgenics is not occurring due to the fact that global IQ scores are rising, or they must argue that a methodological flaw is occurring. Either one of these concessions negates the arguement in favor of dysgenics, thereby making it illogical. If supporters of dysgenics do argue that methodological flaws are occurring presently in IQ tests, then they do so fully accepting that the very concept of the IQ, with which they base their arguement and themselves establish as an indicator of human intellect, is empirically unsound and therefore, by it´s nature, unscientific.
[[fr:Bernadette Soubirous]]

[[id:Bernadette Soubirous]]
Furthermore, dysgenics or eugenics, for that matter, can not be considered a science or scientific in any way because it makes a value statement about certain innate characterisitics and describes some as more or less desireable than others. So the basis of eugenics is that less intelligent people outbreed more intelligent people in this society and that somehow having less intelligence is a less desireable evolutionary characteristic? How does that even fit into a scientific or Darwininan framework?
[[it:Bernadetta Soubirous]]

[[he:ברנדט סובירו]]
Third, the case made by the gentleman who claimed that the arguement against eugenics which stated that it would limit genetic diversity is incorrect in stating that genetic diversity could be attained by scientific methods such as gene splicing failed to make his point. He also stated something to the effect of ¨loss in genetic diversity not always being a bad thing,¨ which is absolutely false. The scientific marker of the health of a species is the diversity within that species´ gene pool. Nothing is more essential than genetic diversity from an evolutionary perspective. And the simple fact is that eugenics limits this genetic diversity by the artificial selection of so-called ¨desirable characterists,¨ many of which with dubious methodological testing. (as is the case with IQ testing) Theoretical artificial changes to the genomes of certain individuals that he claims could potentialy, ¨increase genetic diversity,¨ would certainly not, due to the simple fact that the entire point behind them is to weed out certain other naturally occurring allele frequencies because we find them undesirable and to replace them with ones that we do find desirable. The entire point of the practice would be to define a paradigm of acceptable and unacceptable frequencies out of those naturally occurring in our genome, that´s the reason it´s done in the first place--to slim down the ¨undesirable characteristics¨ and to boost the ¨desireable¨ ones!
[[la:Sancta Bernadetta Lapurdensis]]

[[lt:Bernadette Soubirous]]
This article is a sloppy embarrassment to wikipedia that really ought to be seriously revised, particularly by integrating the critisisms and responses throughout the article.
[[hu:Bernadette Soubirous]]

[[nl:Bernadette Soubirous]]
[[User:PaulDMessiah|PaulDMessiah]] 05:24, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
[[oc:Bernadeta Sobirós]]

[[pl:Bernadette Soubirous]]
:You appear to be familiar with the field. Please "be bold" and fix what needs fixing. [[Special:Contributions/Will_Beback| ·:·]][[User:Will Beback|Will Beback]] [[User talk:Will Beback|·:·]] 05:46, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
[[pt:Bernadette Soubirous]]

[[sq:Bernadete Subiru]]
== Nice article...for the most part ==
[[sl:Sveta Bernardka]]

[[sr:Бернадет Субиру]]
I was just browsing along and stopped on this article. It's surprisingly well written for such a contentious subject. Good work. However, the entire criticisms section reads like a bunch of POV tack-ons. The significant historical and modern-day criticisms of eugenics are well accounted for in the pre-Criticisms sections. They don't need to be repeated in bloody detail. In fact, the earlier sections of this article are a rather nice example of the inclusion of *relevant* pro and con views within the flow of the article's narrative. I'm not bold enough to remove an entire section of an article with which I'm only mildly familiar, but someone really should just ax the criticism section.
[[fi:Bernadette Soubirous]]
--[[User:Jeffakolb|Jeffakolb]] 19:02, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
[[sv:Bernadette Soubirous]]
:<s>I would like to second this view above, most of the criticks content could have easily been replaced/removed to the discussion page. --[[User:On.Elpeleg|<span style="color:green"><b>און</b></span>]] 06:50, 17 September 2008 (UTC)</s> Comment from an indefinitely blocked editor (2 years of spamming, edit-warring, vandalism, personal attacks, tendentious editing and sockpuppetry).[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User%3AOn.Elpeleg] [[User:Wsiegmund|Walter Siegmund]] [[User_talk:Wsiegmund|(talk)]] 15:54, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
[[uk:Субіру Бернадетта]]

== Your Link --Eugenics - A Psychiatric Responsibility ==

Is this a Scientology website? It seems to advocate the Scientology idea that psychiatrists are evil.
:Good catch. I've removed it as an unsuitable external link. [[Special:Contributions/Will_Beback| ·:· ]][[User:Will Beback|Will Beback]] [[User talk:Will Beback|·:·]] 23:11, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

== Request for supporting evidence for "Combating Autism Act" assertion. ==

Currently the section on United States says:

<blockquote>
In more recent times the Combating Autism Act, ratified unanimously by the United States Senate and signed by president George W. Bush, is an example of modern eugenic legislation. The bill contains provisions to support the development of a prenatal diagnosis of autism, which could lead to a reduction in the birth rate of autistic children.
</blockquote>

Scanning the [http://www.combatautism.org/atf/cf/{6864EF63-6B65-4A0A-AE5D-3F0E1363F9EB}/S843_SUS_XML%20(2).PDF text of the S.843 act] I can't see anything to substantiate that, though not being an American I might be missing some terminology or legal background to be able to identify it.

I've flagged it as needing a citation to clarify the situation.

--[[User:Csamuel|Csamuel]] 07:58, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

:Given the fact that the increase in autism in the general population is much faster than can be explained in terms of genetic inheritance it suggests that, while the predisposition may be widespread, unknown environmental factors are currently to blame. [[User:John D. Croft|John D. Croft]] 08:47, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

== Call for archiving old talk page threads ==

Greetings, Could an editor more familiar with this article please archive outdated talk threads to make this page more usable (currently over 50 threads). Thank you! [[User talk:Benjiboi|Benjiboi]] 10:46, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

== Eugenics in popular culture ==

While judiciously selected references to eugenics in popular culture can shed light on both eugenics and culture, the section as it stands it too long, and contains many items of dubious interest or relevance. It is the "Pokemon effect", the influence of fandom, not scholarship. It dilutes the usefulness of Wikipedia and sullies its integrity as an encylopedia. "Popular culture" in this article is represented by American and British science fiction, American sci-fi movies and anime. No connections or conclusions are drawn -- it is not too far from trivia. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/{{{IP|{{{User|75.111.197.14}}}}}}|{{{IP|{{{User|75.111.197.14}}}}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{IP|{{{User|75.111.197.14}}}}}}|talk]]) {{{Time|03:53, August 26, 2007 (UTC)}}}</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==Dawkins and eugenics==
Because Dawkins is one of the most famous evolutionary biologists in the world his views of eugenics are certainly relevant. Now some people are edit warring and removing them:

"[[Richard Dawkins]] has written:
{{cquote|The spectre of Hitler has led some scientists to stray from "ought" to "is" and deny that breeding for human qualities is even possible. But if you can breed cattle for milk yield, horses for running speed, and dogs for herding skill, why on Earth should it be impossible to breed humans for mathematical, musical or athletic ability? Objections such as "these are not one-dimensional abilities" apply equally to cows, horses and dogs and never stopped anybody in practice.<ref>http://www.sundayherald.com/life/people/display.var.1031440.0.eugenics_may_not_be_bad.php</ref>}}
Dawkins asks what the moral difference is between breeding for musical ability and forcing a child to take music lessons." {{unsigned|MoritzB|16:25, 27 August 2007 (UTC)}}

:Way to cherry pick, and completely misrepresent his position. The fact is he doesn't advocate eugenics, and picking out a short paragraph from a foreword he wrote for some ones book, that was plastered around the internet by a [[Discovery institute|Disco institute]] knuckle-dragger &mdash;in a vain attempt to stir up an artificial controversy&mdash; is just going to end up [http://www.wesleyjsmith.com/blog/2006/11/i-retract-my-claim-that-richard.html making you look stupid]. <b><font face="courier" color="#737CA1">[[User:ConfuciusOrnis|ornis]]</font></b> <small><b><font color="#C11B17">([[User talk:ConfuciusOrnis|t]])</font></b></small> 16:34, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

::Perhaps he doesn't "advocate eugenics" but he certainly has an open mind about it. This is certainly relevant.
::[[User:MoritzB|MoritzB]] 17:18, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

==Meanings and types of eugenics==

''"intrinsic eugenics, which seeks to exclusively improve a person's genetic traits that are intrinsically beneficial or detrimental to them, such as physical health, mental health, attractiveness, reproductive ability, physical aptitude, intelligence, and self-control
racial eugenics, which emphasizes selectively breeding a specific race or races
extrinsic social eugenics, which selectively breeds people that have high social status and the genetic traits thereof, such as wealth, attendance at popular colleges, college degrees, popularity, extroversion, personality, and humour"''

I really doubt this categorization is valid. It is unsourced and a Google search "extrinsic social eugenics" reveals that the phrase is only used on the Wikipedia article, not in any reliable sources.

[[User:MoritzB|MoritzB]] 21:57, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

:Agreed. The footnote (5) looks like OR, and the categories proposed are not sensible - 1 & 2 are practically the same thing (certainly in the period I know most about, Britain 1900-1920) and 3 makes no sense at all. I've removed it. [[User:Squiddy|Squiddy]] | [[User talk:Squiddy|<small>(squirt ink?)</small>]] 22:15, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

== Merge trivia section ==
<div class="boilerplate metadata discussion-archived" style="background-color: #f5f3ef; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following discussion is archived. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.'' {{#if:{{{1|}}}|''A summary of the conclusions reached follows.''
::{{{1}}}
----
}} <!-- from Template:discussion top-->

The result was '''merge'''.[[User:ConfuciusOrnis|<font face="arial black" color="#737CA1"> – ornis</font>]][[User talk:ConfuciusOrnis|<font color="#C11B17" size="2pt">⚙</font>]] 14:05, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

May I suggest merging the trivia section to [[Genetic engineering in fiction]], since at a cursory glance it appears a lot of the material there is duplicated here anyway. In any event, a serious article like this isn't helped any by listcruft like that. <b><font face="courier" color="#737CA1">[[User:ConfuciusOrnis|ornis]]</font></b> <small><b><font color="#C11B17">([[User talk:ConfuciusOrnis|t]])</font></b></small> 13:33, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

'''Strongly agree'''. [[User:MoritzB|MoritzB]] 14:41, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.''<!-- from Template:discussion bottom --></div>


==The "Discrimination" template==
I find the inclusion of this template POV-ish. It`s presence implies that Eugenics is a discriminatory social policy. I propose deletion or the creation of a separate article called "Eugenics and discrimination" (the article should start something like this: "The social philosophy of [[Eugenics]] was used in the past as a justification for discrimination.... ") where the template could be present. [[User:Raborg|Raborg]] 20:32, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

:It'd be more suitble in [[dysgenics]], which directly deals with discriminating against "bad" genes. [[Special:Contributions/Will_Beback| ·:· ]][[User:Will Beback|Will Beback]] [[User talk:Will Beback|·:·]] 20:38, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

::Yes. Still kind of POV-ish, but it`s better there than here. [[User:Raborg|Raborg]] 21:04, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
::Or it could remain here, but only under the [[Eugenics#Criticism]] chapter. [[User:Raborg|Raborg]] 21:50, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

::Yes, let's remove it.[[User:MoritzB|MoritzB]] 01:50, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

== Merge Dysgenics into Eugenics ==
{{discussion-top}}
The lead of [[Dysgenics]] identifies it as the antonym of [[Eugenics]]. Duplication and inconsistency may be avoided by treating it in the Eugenics article. Dysgenics receives little attention and a small number of [[WP:SPA]]s have edited its content to reflect their extreme point of view in apparent violation of the undue weight section of [[WP:NPOV]].
*'''Support''' [[User:Wsiegmund|Walter Siegmund]] [[User_talk:Wsiegmund|(talk)]] 03:48, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
:<small>Copied the following five comments from [[Talk:Dysgenics#Move_article_to_a_new_section_within_the_article_Eugenics?]]</small>
*'''Support''', dysgenics is eugenics under an alternative name. No reason to have two separate articles. [[User:TimVickers|Tim Vickers]] 21:41, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''': the eugenics article is already too long.[[User:Rsheridan6|Rsheridan6]] 02:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
*Also '''oppose''' - they're not the same thing and the eugenics article, which I read some months ago, is definitely too long to sustain such a merge. [[User:Richard001|Richard001]] 05:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. Agreed. The Eugenics article is too long.[[User:MoritzB|MoritzB]] 15:31, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. Eugenics is a (social) '''philosophy'''. In '''biology/genetics''', Dysgenics is a... let`s call it "an action and its result". They belong to two compltetely different fields. The fact that Eugenics operates with terms like "dysgenics" is irrelevant. Compare [[Thermodynamics]] and [[Entropy]] or [[Emergentism]] and [[emergence]], etc. [[User:Raborg|Raborg]] 21:27, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
::That may be the case, but the current Dysgenics article is written from the eugenicist POV. The two articles are closely related. IMO, the only rationale for keeping the two separate is the length issue.[[User:Verklempt|Verklempt]] 20:05, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
*'''Support''' I think the length issue can be addressed, and since the dysgenics article as it stands deals almost entirely with eugenics, I see no reason to have them spread all over the place. Let's keep it all together where it's easier to manage. [[User:ConfuciusOrnis|<font face="arial black" color="#737CA1"> – ornis</font>]][[User talk:ConfuciusOrnis|<font color="#C11B17" size="2pt">⚙</font>]] 14:08, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
*'''Strongly support''' such information is best understood, in it's entirety, in context. --[[User:Nicholas Cimini|Nicholas]] 20:02, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
*'''Support''' The merge would be a great idea. Dysgenics needs but a stub section anyway.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 17:38, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. Eugenics and dysgenics are basically the same concept, advanced by the same people. [[Special:Contributions/Will_Beback| ·:· ]][[User:Will Beback|Will Beback]] [[User talk:Will Beback|·:·]] 19:30, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. Per above, [[User:Tazmaniacs|Tazmaniacs]] 19:34, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' It seems that they are really distinct concepts and as such should have separate entries. As noted above, they are both important topics for the prospect of humanity and as an encyclopedia entry which provides distinctions between concepts should maintain separate delineations and corresponding entries. Additionally, both of these entries are fairly long and merging them together will make the combined entry that much longer. [[User:Stevenmitchell|Stevenmitchell]] 20:41, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. There is nothing in that article that couldn't go into this one, and I agree with the assessment that it has been hijacked by POV pushers who couldn't get their POV inserted into an article which draws more attention to itself. --[[User:24.147.86.187|24.147.86.187]] 20:59, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
{{discussion-bottom}}
----
I see a strong consensus for the merge considering that of those opposing above, {{user|MoritzB}} has been indefinitely blocked for disruption, POV-pushing, etc., and {{User|Rsheridan6}} and {{User|Raborg}} are inactive. I make the tally 8 to 2. I include the support by the anonymous editor in the tally since s/he seems to be an active, constructive and long-term editor, but a consensus exists without his/her support. If others agree with my judgement, I think we can proceed with the merge. [[User:Wsiegmund|Walter Siegmund]] [[User_talk:Wsiegmund|(talk)]] 20:29, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
:I`m not inactive. I`m not dead yet. Still twitching. But even with my '''oppose''', there are still not enough to stop this merger. [[User:Raborg|Raborg]] 13:18, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

== Paragraph "Reductio ad Hitlerum" removed ==

The three sources appear to be unsuitable:
* The website "website on logic" fallacyfiles.org is no academic source, at least on eugenics. The alleged quote "Eugenics must be wrong ...." can't be found on the website. The website gives no explicit source about who made the fallacious statements. The website doesn't call it Reductio ad Hitlerum.
* theoccidentalquaterly.com seems to be a racist page.
* the Glad 2008 book is yet to appear.

--[[User:Schwalker|Schwalker]] 20:18, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
:I strongly support removing this. Just because some website mentioned eugenics in passing does not make that a properly sourced addition to the article. The rest of that section is simply offtopic or irrelevant--the Itzkoff quote that [[User:EliasAlucard]] wants to insert has little or no connection to the idea that eugenics has been unfairly tainted because of its association with Hitler.--[[User:Proper tea is theft|Proper tea is theft]] 18:57, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
::Don't be ridiculous; Eugenics HAS been tainted by the Nazis. Also, even if it is a racist page, that's no reason to remove it. Has the thought ever occurred to you that basically only racists are into Eugenics? I mean, what's your point? This is not at all "off topic". This is not a forum. This is a very relevant perception of how Eugenics is regarded today. It stays in the article. &mdash; <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 21:01 01 Oct, 2007 (UTC)</small></small>
:::Actually, the decision of whether it stays or not is not just yours to make; whether it stays is subject to discussion and requires a consensus, which apparently doesn't exist at the moment.--[[User:Proper tea is theft|Proper tea is theft]] 19:13, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
::::If you're going to remove it, you will have to give '''valid reasons''', and Schwalker did not make one single valid point. Schwalker isn't [[WP:NPOV]] about this. &mdash; <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 21:20 01 Oct, 2007 (UTC)</small></small>
:::::Have you considered that your Itzkoff quote might work better elsewhere in the article? Why the insistence on placing it in this particular section?--[[User:Proper tea is theft|Proper tea is theft]] 19:23, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
::::::Schwalker appears to have laid out some valid reasons to remove it. What are the valid reasons to include it? [[Special:Contributions/Will_Beback| ·:· ]][[User:Will Beback|Will Beback]] [[User talk:Will Beback|·:·]] 19:31, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
:::::::His reasons are NOT valid. We are not citing the reductio ad hitlerum as if it were an academic source. The alleged quote was phrased somewhat differently in this article; I've fixed it. ''The website gives no explicit source about who made the fallacious statements.'' &mdash; It's not supposed to either. The website is giving ''examples'' of logical fallacies. Someone, God knows who, has probably argued that eugenics is wrong because Hitler put it into practise (I mean, how impossible could that be?). ''theoccidentalquaterly.com seems to be a racist page.'' &mdash; And your point is? This is a racist topic. Also, I've provided ref for the Glad quote (Glad is an author). &mdash; <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 21:35 01 Oct, 2007 (UTC)</small></small>
::::::::I intend to remove the Reductio ad Hitlerum section. Before I do, may I suggest that your additions would work well in the Nazi Germany section of the eugenics article, where they would be perfectly relevant. Or is there a specific reason that you prefer not to place your edits there?--[[User:Proper tea is theft|Proper tea is theft]] 20:14, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::Nazi eugenics article is beside the point. There is a difference between Eugenics and Nazi eugenics. This fallacy, belongs here, not in the Nazi eugenics article. It belongs here, because people condescend Eugenics, because of Nazi eugenics, not the other way around. &mdash; <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 22:16 01 Oct, 2007 (UTC)</small></small>
::::::::::Oh wait, I misread that. No, it should be under the counterargument section. &mdash; <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 22:19 01 Oct, 2007 (UTC)</small></small>
(back left)Okay, why?--[[User:Proper tea is theft|Proper tea is theft]] 20:22, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
:Why? Because of context. The Nazi Germany section focuses on the actual eugenics policy of the Third Reich, not on arguments to criticize or justify eugenics through logical fallacies. &mdash; <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 22:30 01 Oct, 2007 (UTC)</small></small>
::But neither do your additions "focus on arguments to criticize or justify eugenics through logical fallacies"--they simply describe claims that the Nazis did not practice eugenics, which is not the same thing. Additionally, fallacyfiles.org is not a [[WP:RS|reliable source]]. --[[User:Proper tea is theft|Proper tea is theft]] 20:53, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
:::Claiming that eugenics is wrong because Nazis practised it, is both criticism and a fallacy. ''Additinally, fallacyfiles.org is not a [[WP:RS|reliable source]].'' &mdash; Yeah? On what grounds? &mdash; <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 23:01 01 Oct, 2007 (UTC)</small></small>
::::[[WP:RS]] says:
::::''A reliable source is a published work regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand. Evaluation of reliability will depend on the credibility of the author and the publication, along with consideration of the context. Reliable publications are those with an established structure for fact-checking and editorial oversight.''
::::...
::::''Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Sources should be appropriate to the claims made: exceptional claims require exceptional sources.''
::::...
::::''In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers. As a rule of thumb, the greater the degree of scrutiny involved in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the evidence and arguments of a particular work, the more reliable it is.''

::::Are you saying that fallacyfiles.org meets these requirements? While the author appears to have a PhD in philosophy, this source isn't reliable in the sense that it cannot establish whether [[Reductio ad Hitlerum]] is a common counterargument to the idea that eugenics is bad. --[[User:Proper tea is theft|Proper tea is theft]] 21:17, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
:::::Look, it's just an example of a logical fallacy, all right? You don't need a source from the CIA for this. It's a reliable source for what is being cited. And since the author has a PhD, it doesn't make it less reliable. &mdash; <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 23:23 01 Oct, 2007 (UTC)</small></small>
::::::If it's being presented as an example of a logical fallacy then it belings in the article on [[logical fallacy]], not here. This article is not about logic. [[Special:Contributions/Will_Beback| ·:· ]][[User:Will Beback|Will Beback]] [[User talk:Will Beback|·:·]] 21:56, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
:::::::You are free to add it in the [[logical fallacy]] article, but it also belongs here because it's part of the article's topic. This is like I said, a very relevant perception of eugenics. It is most certainly notable. Let's face it, uneducated people think that Hitler invented Eugenics. &mdash; <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 00:01 02 Oct, 2007 (UTC)</small></small>
::::::::There's no source to show that uneducated people think that Hitler invented eugenics. The source for this is expert on logic, not on eugenics. He's not trying to make a point about eugenics, but rather a point about logic. [[Special:Contributions/Will_Beback| ·:· ]][[User:Will Beback|Will Beback]] [[User talk:Will Beback|·:·]] 22:06, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::Yes, but you don't have to be a genius to figure out that his point about logic (which is about eugenics) is a valid point. Whether eugenics is right or wrong is not decided by Hitler's use of Eugenics because Hitler did not have a patent/copyright/monopoly on Eugenics. I thought that was super obvious. &mdash; <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 00:09 02 Oct, 2007 (UTC)</small></small>
I have placed a [[Template:Citecheck|Citecheck]] tag on this section so that some appropriate sources may be located, as only one editor seems to feel that this one works. I would be most appreciative, [[User:EliasAlucard]], if you would stop removing that tag. --[[User:Proper tea is theft|Proper tea is theft]] 17:06, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
:This isn't about editors in numbers. This isn't about [[ad populum]]. The section is NOT misinterpreted. Is that so difficult to understand? &mdash; <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 20:50 02 Oct, 2007 (UTC)</small></small>
::Wikipedia operates by consensus. If only one editor is advocating for the inclusion of some text, and several others oppose it, then there's no consensus for including the material. If anyone thinks that more input would change the dynamic then a request for comment should be made. [[Special:Contributions/Will_Beback| ·:· ]][[User:Will Beback|Will Beback]] [[User talk:Will Beback|·:·]] 21:22, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I've again removed the paragraph titled ''Counterarguments, Reductio ad Hitlerum'', since:

a) The web-site cited is a private page.

b) This article is not about association fallacies, but about eugenics. Thus the web-site is irrelevant as a source for this article.

--[[User:Schwalker|Schwalker]] 12:16, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

:Schwalker, for your sake, because I like you so much, I've decided to add this section into the Reductio ad Hitlerum article. I hope you respect this decision of me and refrain yourself from censoring it. &mdash; <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 17:32 08 Oct, 2007 (UTC)</small></small>

I'm really disappointed that you people removed the 'Reductio ad Hitlerum' paragraph. It definitely fit into this article. It was only removed because it was, as I remember it, a strange explanation for peoples' anti-eugenics opinions. Kind of like removing proof that you did something wrong, to hide it. [[User:XcepticZP|XcepticZP]] 17:49, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

== Sparta and Hitler ==

This quote has been repeatedly added by User:EliasAlucard, who, to his credit, is improving each time its formulation, although the main idea is the same:
#one fact: Hitler praised Sparta.
#free interpretation of Hitler: Sparta was practicing a policy of eugenics.
First, there is the problem of [[WP:UNDUE]] (EliasAlucard having included his finding in several Wikipedia articles, and, after some unsuccessfull talk with him, I moved his add to [[Nazi eugenics]] where it belongs &mdash; this interpretation of Hitler is, at most, anecdotical, compared to compulsive sterilization & racial policies of Nazi Germany).
More importantly, '''Sparta was not, in any way, practicing eugenics''', which is an [[anachronism]] for which no [[WP:RS|reliable source]] (by this, I mean a historian of Antiquity, as by [[Sparta]] we refer to a city of Ancient Greece) have been provided (with reason). Practicing infanticide is different from following a policy of eugenism, which, by definition, can only exist in the frame of [[scientific racism]] and of the theory that a "race" can be improved by some kind of [[public health]] policies &mdash; these disciplines (scientific racism, public health, etc.) having been created in the 19th century, Sparta did not practice eugenics. This is simple [[WP:OR|original research]]. [[User:Tazmaniacs|Tazmaniacs]] 22:28, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
:What was practised in Sparta, was, in hindsight, eugenics. The concept of eugenics lacked a name at the time, but it was nonetheless eugenics. It belongs here more than in Nazi eugenics, because what was practised in Sparta was not related to Nazism. It was pure and simple, eugenics. The fact that Hitler praised Sparta's eugenics program, does not grant Nazism a patent on Sparta's eugenics. [http://books.google.com/books?id=SszNCxSKmgkC&pg=PA276&dq=Hitler%27s+Secret+Book+sparta&ie=ISO-8859-1&sig=q5g40V7M6bHFNX8pm4ZD65FxH6s#PPA276,M1 This academic source calls it eugenic,] and like it or not, this academic source knows better than you do about this. Also, I believe the Sparta section should be improved and expanded and cover some more points about Sparta's eugenics program. &mdash; <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 00:39 03 Oct, 2007 (UTC)</small></small>
::I find it quite funny to search Google Books to make academic claims. Maybe reading a bit on Sparta and eugenics would be more advisable? In any case, the link you give is &mdash; like it or not &mdash; not accessible to me (I presume because of Internet laws concerning [[negationism]] and [[hate speech]]). [[User:Tazmaniacs|Tazmaniacs]] 23:04, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
:::Well, check up more about the book [http://books.google.com/books?id=SszNCxSKmgkC&dq=Hitler%27s+Secret+Book+sparta here] (here's a hint: ''By Mike Hawkins Published 1997 '''Cambridge University Press''''') Hate speech? Internet laws? What the heck are you talking about? &mdash; <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 01:09 03 Oct, 2007 (UTC)</small></small>
::::See [[Internet censorship]] and review [[European Union]] legislation concerning these matters. My Google browser prohibits me access to this page. [[User:Tazmaniacs|Tazmaniacs]] 23:11, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
:::::Your opinion isn't relevant anyway; other users can confirm the content of that link, and the fact, that an academic scholar calls it eugenics. Sorry, but eugenics was practised in Sparta, whether you like it or not :) &mdash; <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 01:14 03 Oct, 2007 (UTC)</small></small>
::::::Let's continue this discussion on [[Talk:Nazi eugenics#This article must not rely on primary nazi sources]] in order to avoid debating in five pages at the same time on the same subject. Thanks, [[User:Tazmaniacs|Tazmaniacs]] 12:49, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

:Note that the Sparta-was-eugenics trope predates Hitler by a long time; it was often cited by early American and British eugenicists, for example. I of course agree that saying it "was eugenics" is a bit of an anachronism, to say the least, but to say it was embraced by eugenicists as a historical antecedent would be entirely true and acceptable. --[[User:24.147.86.187|24.147.86.187]] 21:20, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Eugenics was concerned with making sure that the strongest of any given tribe/group/race survive and that the weak are rooted out. The logic being that removing the weaker individuals would be beneficial to the group as a whole. So no, eugenics need not exist only in an environment of sicentific racism. Technically the first cave man who slew his sickly child for the benefit of his tribe or family was a "eugenicist", although they wouldn't have called it that. See the (old) book ''Ancient Eugenics'' by Allen G. Roper. It has a kind of pro-Eugenic outlook, but on the whole it is accurate (at least in regards to the history of eugenics). <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/87.112.80.89|87.112.80.89]] ([[User talk:87.112.80.89|talk]]) 20:25, 24 May 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Charles Darwin influence to Galton's eugenics ==

:'''During the 1860s and 1870s, Sir Francis Galton systematized these ideas and practices according to new knowledge about the evolution of man and animals provided by the theory of his cousin Charles Darwin. '''
Well, I don't really know much about Galton, but I'm suspecting of a bit of those historical mistakes of "common sense" here, similar to contrasting Darwin and Lamarck as if Darwin already accepted mendelian genetics alone, as if Darwin himself was a [[August_Weismann|Weismaninan]] [[neo-darwinism|neo-darwinist]]. Breeding animals and plants for certain features existed long before Darwin ever sketching his ideas on evolution, so I think that it's possible, if not likely, that Galton's idea owe nothing to Darwin's. Not that they don't share a certain common ground, they're obviously related in mechanisms; what I am skeptical about is this picture of Galton only thinking something like "...what if my cousin's ideas of 'artificial selection', as he put it, could be applied to improving human populations? Humm... seems interesting..." after knowing Darwin's ideas, which is somewhat of the mental image this passage can create, I think. ''But'' this is just something I suspect, and perhaps Darwin did have significant influence on Galton's concepts; I'm pointing to this just in case it catches the attention of someone who happens to already know more about or would like to research on that.--[[User:Extremophile|Extremophile]] 15:50, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

:Galton was indeed influenced by [[Social Darwinism]] ideas, which (mis)interpreted Darwin's theories (who himself distanced himself with Galton's theories in ''[[The Descent of Man]]''). [[User:Tazmaniacs|Tazmaniacs]] 17:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Difficult point. For early hereditary and its potential impact see Waller, John C. "Ideas of Heredity, Reproduction and Eugenics in Britain, 1800-1875." Studies in History and Philosophy of Biological and Biomedical Sciences 32, no. 3 (2001): 457-89.. This argues that Galton and Darwin etc. have been overpersonalized and that they need to be de-centred. The proposed method is to look at early hereditary. Galton's publications and theories before the Origin of Species also point towards the development of eugenics. Peter Weingart argues eugenics wa influenced by two theories: these early hereditary theories and evolutionary theory. (Weingart, Peter. "German Eugenics between Science and Politics." Osiris 5 (1999): 260-82. By evolutionary theory I predomiantly mean Spencer and Darwin. There was a void thanks to Lyell's critique of Lamarck in evolutionary theory. The onset of religious controversies (essays and reviews, Huxley etc) in conjunction with Brixam caves etc, meant that religion was seriously challenged to the point that the authority of science could step in to propose a form of evolutionary theory. For, William Farr had advocated similar ideas to Galton in the 1830s, and of course, the vertiges of creation earlier had purported evolutionary theories comparable to Darwin's (not in the same league though). With such a social and intellectual context, Robert bannister argued that Galton's eugenics was a logical deduction to make from the origin.

In respect to the other comment, perhaps some knowledge of more recent studies not based on Richard Hofstadter's 'social darwinism', which is an invention, a myth and untrue might shed some more light. Contemporaries never described themselves as social darwinists. Darwin's so called distancing and rejection of 'social darwinism' or its equivalent theories (evolutionary theory as advocated by Spencer here and Ernst haeckel later) is complicated and cannot be deduced from the descent alone. Indeed, Darwin thought the term 'survival of the fittest' was an adequate description of his theory. The difference was that in light of Malthus' population theory and Compte's positivism, and john Stuart Mill's philosophies, and the important contemporary issue of the antiquity of man, meant that this idea was to seen by some to be a prescription for society. This led to the descent, which was reactionary and Darwin was never entirely sure about the application of it as a prescription to mankind. The descent should not be conceived entirely as a rejection, for those familiar with Darwin's papers will know that Darwin's agreement/ disagreement with these types of ideas was not clear cut, and complicated.

The main problem I see with the definition and ideas presented is that it is contested territory. In such a case, it would be better to elicit multiple conceptions and definitions of eugenics, for there were and still are many different definitions. I think 'conceptions of eugenics' would be best and they can be placed in their historical contexts. From these historical origins, to present day definitions, which as Dianne Paul (I think already cited in the article) has argued are to a large extent based on political, social, or personal perspectives. Its not good enough to cite a definition and a point and give one authority. There is far too much literature, and I believe while there is a lot in the article, what is not there and the way it is put is misleading. However, credit should be given to those editors dealing with a contentious and difficult topic to summarize. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/203.184.7.97|203.184.7.97]] ([[User talk:203.184.7.97|talk]]) 04:12, 20 October 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Galton was certainly influenced by Darwin's theories to come up with eugenics, at least by his own accounts. And Darwin was less resistent to Galton's logic than is often let on: as far as I can tell he basically agreed with Galton's ''logic'' of eugenics, but distanced himself ''a bit'' in regards to the morality of it (even then, ''Descent of Man'' is ambiguous; his position in the middle of the book and the end of the book are quite different; in the conclusion he comes off as a raging eugenicist, while earlier on he is a bit more back-and-forth, in his typical non-commital style. From what I can tell he thought the best part of Galton's argument was that Galton established that genius and talent might be inherited, which Darwin saw as vital to his argument about human evolution). Neither, of course, were advocates of the sorts of state-based eugenics as formed in the 20th century. --[[User:24.147.86.187|24.147.86.187]] 21:19, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

::Wow, I got to read all this. Anyway, I was reading a book a few time ago, and it mentioned somewhat clearly that Galton was indeed influenced by Darwin's ideas. The book is "the creative moment", by the physicist Joseph Schwartz. There's also some stuff about the origin of the "IQ movement", basically, despite of the connection with Darwin, he puts that the major influence was actually the need for a new sort of "wealth" in a changing society. The upper classes were somewhat "menaced", their position in the social strata was not so stable as it always had been, so the earlier iluministic ideals of equality of potential of [[John Locke]] and others had to be abandoned. --[[User:Extremophile|Extremophile]] 06:07, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

== Request for assistance on Demographic-economic paradox ==

A [[Talk:Demographic-economic paradox#Eugenics as unethical, immoral pseudoscience|discussion]] is in progress regarding the relationship of eugenics and dysgenics to the [[Demographic-economic paradox]]. This page has few editors, and I do not believe we have enough expertise on eugenics to properly resolve the question. Could some of you take a look at it? Thanks.--[[User:Ytrottier|Yannick]] 06:34, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

== Chinese reproductive rate ==

I've heard that one of the arguments for eugenics in the US was that the chinese people procreate too fast, and there were estimates that in a certain number of generations, there would be more sino-americans than euro-americans in the US, if irrestrict immigration were allowed. I'm going to search about it eventually, but I'm already mentioning, just in case someone wants to search about that. --[[User:Extremophile|Extremophile]] 06:00, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

== [[Leprosy]] ==

Sterilisation to prevent the transfer of an ''infectious'', rather than an ''inherited'', disease to offspring isn't eugenics. I propose the removal of this sentence, once again. [[User:Old Moonraker|Old Moonraker]] 13:32, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
:Deleted by another editor. --[[User:Old Moonraker|Old Moonraker]] 21:56, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

==Problem of Flying-Tyger==
[[User:Flying-Tyger|Flying-Tyger]] is an editor who likes to add the war crime of Japan. However, Flying-Tyger gives priority to his feelings more than facts. (The Japanese is cruel. )　He added the section of Showa Japan in October, 2007. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eugenics&diff=next&oldid=165837178]

Therefore, when the fact that contradicts his opinion is written in the source, he falsifies the source. I explain his falsification act one by one.

Flying-Tyger wrote. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eugenics_in_Showa_Japan&oldid=107646720] <- First Version　

{{quotation|'''Eugenics in Shōwa Japan''' were supported by politically motivated movements that sought to increase the number of healthy [[Japan]]ese, while simultaneously decreasing the number of people suffering mental retardation , disability, [[genetic disease]] and other conditions that led to them being viewed as "[[wikt:inferior|inferior]]" contributions to the Japanese gene pool.(#1"The National Eugenic Law)(#2[http://www.bioethics.jp/licht_genetics.html])}}

The source#1 is being written like this.

"The purposes of this law are to prevent the birth of inferior descendants from the eugenic point of view, '''''and to protect the life and health of the mother as well'''''."

He concealed "and to protect the life and health of the mother as well". and emphasized inferior.

"while simultaneously decreasing the number of people suffering mental retardation , disability, genetic disease and other conditions..." is also wrong. 　<br>
Source #1 is written, Only "hereditary disorder (遺伝性疾患)". <br>
Source #2 is written, "or hereditary malformation, or the spouse suffers from mental disease or mental disability". However, this is an explanation of The Eugenic Protection Law approved in [[1948]].　

There is still his malignant falsification. (It explains it at the end of October. ) <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Azukimonaka|Azukimonaka]] ([[User talk:Azukimonaka|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Azukimonaka|contribs]]) 14:28, 2007 November 3</small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

== Position of the Church ==

There is no reference to the (Christian) church's position on Eugenics. I don't know where this could be added- new section, added into existing parts? but should definitly be there. Here is one reference that could be used for its position in the 1930s- but maybe going to the primary sources would be better.

REF: DESMOND KING AND RANDALL HANSEN; Experts at Work: State Autonomy, Social Learning and Eugenic Sterilization in 1930s Britain. B.J.Pol.S. 29, 77–107 [http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FJPS%2FJPS29_01%2FS000712349900004Xa.pdf&code=5627e4db5845b9c815bc15f69c7fae16]
QUote:
The Church opposed further enquiries about the treatment of the
mentally ill with sterilization at the time of the Wood Report.135 Its opposition
to the Brock recommendations was consolidated with the 1930 papal encyclical
Casti Conubii, which argued that too little was known about the mechanisms
of inheritance for eugenics to have predictive power and that sterilization itself
violated a God-given right to reproduce.136
<br />
[[User:D666D|D666D]] 21:39, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

== Copyvio ==
{{discussion top}}
{{userlinks|EliasAlucard}} tagged the article as a copyvio on 17 January, but failed to post to this page.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eugenics&diff=185001742&oldid=184981398] "Sir Francis Galton systematized these ideas and practices according to new knowledge about the evolution of man and animals provided by the theory of his cousin Charles Darwin." appears in both the article and thebioreview. It isn't obvious to me whether Wikipedia or thebioreview is the violator here. Perhaps an active editor of this article might have a look. [[User:Wsiegmund|Walter Siegmund]] [[User_talk:Wsiegmund|(talk)]] 01:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The putative Plato quotation was added by an IP registered to the State Library of Victoria in Melbourne on 2005 September 29.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eugenics&diff=24296139&oldid=24128783]

Benjamin Jowett's translation of ''The Republic'' supports the other content, but I was not able to verify the quotation that appears in the article.[http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/1497]
{{quotation|Had we not better appoint certain festivals at which we will bring together
the brides and bridegrooms, and sacrifices will be offered and suitable
hymeneal songs composed by our poets: the number of weddings is a matter
which must be left to the discretion of the rulers, whose aim will be to
preserve the average of population? There are many other things which they
will have to consider, such as the effects of wars and diseases and any
similar agencies, in order as far as this is possible to prevent the State
from becoming either too large or too small.}}

{{quotation|We shall have to invent some ingenious kind of lots which the less worthy
may draw on each occasion of our bringing them together, and then they will
accuse their own ill-luck and not the rulers.}}

{{quotation|And I think that our braver and better youth, besides their other honours
and rewards, might have greater facilities of intercourse with women given
them; their bravery will be a reason, and such fathers ought to have as
many sons as possible.}}

Other content of thebioreview.com has apparently been copied from Wikipedia. Compare the first ordered list of [[Abiogenesis#Current_models]] to similar or identical list of [http://www.thebioreview.com/evolution/origin.html thebioreview] article "ORIGIN OF LIFE". [[User:Wsiegmund|Walter Siegmund]] [[User_talk:Wsiegmund|(talk)]] 14:19, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

When I attempted to ask thebioreview about the content source, I could find no contact or publisher information. {{Userlinks|Interchangez}} alleges that the site was created as a class project and the content was copied from Wikipedia.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Interchangez&diff=prev&oldid=62530614] [[User:Wsiegmund|Walter Siegmund]] [[User_talk:Wsiegmund|(talk)]] 18:18, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

EliasAlucard also failed to post the notation of copyvio to [[Wikipedia:Copyright_problems/2008_January_17]] as is required - it was done by a bot. it seems like it was a rather hasty copyvio flag - thebioreview.com reads to me immediately as a source likely to have borrowed content from wikipedia and not the reverse, and no authors are cited - can we just remove the flag without an admin?
[[Special:Contributions/128.59.153.141|128.59.153.141]] ([[User talk:128.59.153.141|talk]]) 21:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
:Sorry for not paying enough attention to this discussion. It seems now that this bioreview has copied some content from the Wikipedia article, or vice versa. Not really sure, but if you look at for instance the counter argument section in the bioreview link, that's a section that was included in the wiki article in an earlier state (the part about an association fallacy). At first I thought it was just some website that had copied content from Wikipedia, but when I noticed the '''© thebioreview.com. All Rights Reserved''' at the end, I didn't know what to make out of it, so I added the copyvio template. &mdash; <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]&nbsp;([[User talk:EliasAlucard|Discussion]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/EliasAlucard|contribs]]) 07:31, 31 January 2008 (UTC)</small></small>
::The Web is rife with spurious claims of copyright. It was reasonable to tag the article, but the comments and links above provide the basis for an administrator to remove the tag and close this discussion, in my opinion. It seems that a backlog exists that has delayed closure more than the normal 7 day period. [[User:Wsiegmund|Walter Siegmund]] [[User_talk:Wsiegmund|(talk)]] 17:26, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
::: I agree with Walter Siegmund. I've looked at the BioReview website some more, and it's filled with text that all comes directly from Wikipedia, and not the other way around. While we should always be on the lookout for copyvios, and as such tagging is good and if done in good faith it should always be investigated, I think we can safely consider this discussion closed. Kind regards, [[User:JoanneB|Joanne]][[User talk:JoanneB|B]] 20:05, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
{{discussion bottom}}

== [[Gendercide]] ==

''"genders gendercide perceived as inferior"'' was added as a form of genocide on 14 January. The addition wasn't explained and was reverted, giving as the reason "gender is not an hereditary trait". It was then reinstated, again without explanation, and subsequently has been deleted and replaced at regular intervals. It seems now to have settled in the article, albeit with a <nowiki>{{fact}}</nowiki> tag, but still without an explanation. Can any of the editors who have replaced the article provide a basis for its inclusion? Given the definition in the lead of this article, "improvement of human hereditary traits through various forms of intervention", it doesn't seem to have a place here. I can't see how killing women (or men) can improve hereditary traits. I propose its removal, once again. --[[User:Old Moonraker|Old Moonraker]] ([[User talk:Old Moonraker|talk]]) 22:45, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
:It's fixed. Thanks [[User:128.59.153.141]] --[[User:Old Moonraker|Old Moonraker]] ([[User talk:Old Moonraker|talk]]) 13:37, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

==Maintained?==
Who, if anyone, is maintaining this article? I requested the talk page be archived perhaps 6 months ago, so I imagine that if it does have a maintainer or maintainers they either like long talk pages or are pretty lethargic. I was going to take a shot at it myself as I passed by, but there are some threads at the top that are clearly out of order (people posting at the top instead of the bottom, and nobody fixing it), and some aren't even signed... [[User:Richard001|Richard001]] ([[User talk:Richard001|talk]]) 07:46, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

:<nowiki>*</nowiki>[[Tumbleweed]] blows across talk page*

:Sigh... Good to know the [[nothing|system]] is working, as always. [[User:Richard001|Richard001]] ([[User talk:Richard001|talk]]) 08:28, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

==Soviet Union eugenics programs==
This is an interesting topic and covers many aspects but there is no mention of any Soviet eugenics programme.. I assume the soviets were also deploying similar actions. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/213.160.162.222|213.160.162.222]] ([[User talk:213.160.162.222|talk]]) 12:29, 26 March 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:The initial Bolshevik revolutionaries did embrace eugenics to a degree, starting up a Russian Eugenics Society, and supporting research on eugenics. There were even some plans for a genetic Five Year Plan based on artificial insemination. But by 1930 eugenics had been categorized as a "bourgeois" science; the RES was disbanded, eugenics research was abolished. By the late 1930s Stalin himself had personally rejected the idea of socialist eugenics and by then Lysenkoism had taken one of its many criticisms of Mendelian genetics the coincidence between fascism and eugenics in Germany.<ref>Daniel J. Kevles, "International Eugenics," in ''Deadly Medicine'' (cited in the article), 41-59, info specifically from 47.</ref> So there the USSR program is not especially interesting, except as an example of a state that in the end did not support eugenics, but for equally ideological reasons. The more ya know. If someone wants to add the above paragraph in edited form into the article somewhere, they are welcome to. --[[Special:Contributions/98.217.8.46|98.217.8.46]] ([[User talk:98.217.8.46|talk]]) 21:37, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

On site http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8dWn3ip-YY there's a video, about soviet eugenics.In late 1930 decade, former [[Soviet Union]] had its own eugenics- the [[lysenkoism]]. [[User:Agre22|Agre22]] ([[User talk:Agre22|talk]]) 13:41, 19 June 2008 (UTC)agre22

The Soviet Union were 100% AGAINST genetic science. It is said that that Russia is 70 years behind on research and advancement. Now I can see why.

-G <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/76.67.112.253|76.67.112.253]] ([[User talk:76.67.112.253|talk]]) 17:48, 30 June 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Redundant section? ==

The [[Eugenics#Other_countries|section about Eugenics in other countries]] than those listed refers just to the previously cited countries, thus it don't add anything to the article. I believe it would be better to remove the section. What do you think? --[[User:Brandizzi|Brandizzi]] ([[User talk:Brandizzi|talk]]) 19:35, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree.There was an eugenics for every place.I think sites must be created:

* [[Eugenics in Brazil]].

* [[Eugenics in Canada]].

* [[Eugenics in England]].

* [[Eugenics in France]].

* [[Eugenics in Germany]].

* [[Eugenics in Italy]].

* [[Eugenics in Japan]].

* [[Eugenics in Mexico]].

* [[Eugenics in Soviet Union]].

* [[Eugenics in the United States]].

Why so many sites?Because, every country make its own eugenics.An eugenics knowledge in Japan, could be absurd in United States and vice-versa.[[User:Agre22|Agre22]] ([[User talk:Agre22|talk]]) 12:51, 20 June 2008 (UTC)agre22

{{discussion top}}
== Merge Dysgenics into this article ==
''For previous discussions see: [[Talk:Eugenics/Archive_3#Move_Dysgenics_to_a_new_section_within_the_article_Eugenics.3F_.285.2C3.2C0.29| Nov. 2006 Eugenics talk]]; [[Talk:Dysgenics#Move_article_to_a_new_section_within_the_article_Eugenics.3F|Nov. 2006 Dysgenics talk]]; [[Talk:Eugenics#Merge_Dysgenics_into_Eugenics|Sept.-Oct. 2007 Eugenics talk]]
*'''Support:''' Useful content that is unrelated to this article can be merged with other existing articles. --[[User:Wsiegmund|Walter Siegmund]] [[User_talk:Wsiegmund|(talk)]] 15:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment:''' Dysgenics has long been largely a [[WP:POVFORK]] of this article. An early April version of the Dysgenics article, largely the work of [[user|Harkenbane]] and [[user|Zero g]],[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dysgenics&oldid=20499156] advocated an extreme point of view, in defiance of mainstream scientific thought, and Wikipedia guidelines and policies. They have contributed to this article, [[Race and intelligence]] and [[Heritability of IQ]], also. An earlier advocate of similar material, MoritzB, was indefinitely blocked last fall for "Edit warring on [[White people]], numerous other pages".[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:MoritzB] Discussions at [[Talk:Dysgenics]] are extensive, have been tendentious, and sometimes uncivil. In late April, Dysgenics was protected because of edit warring.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dysgenics&diff=208998291&oldid=208991531] --[[User:Wsiegmund|Walter Siegmund]] [[User_talk:Wsiegmund|(talk)]] 15:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment:''' I think we need to have a discussion about what 'subarticles' there should be on this topic. It's a very broad one and I don't think we can do justice to it in one article. I don't know that eugenics/dysgenics is the best way to go, although I'm somewhat ambivalent on that one. I have suggested some other ways of splitting it in the to-do list, though nobody seems to be active here (for instance my request for someone who is actually involved in the article to archive this page has long gone unnoticed; one or more people actually volunteering to maintain the article (remove vandalism, carry housekeeping work like archiving etc) would be a nice). We also need more 'eugenics in [country]' articles. I have found there is enough literature out there to write one for my country ([[New Zealand]]) even though eugenics seems to have little impact here. For this we need to work more with country WikiProjects. I doubt think that a ''by country'' division is enough though, and think a broader discussion about how the article should be split into 'child' articles would be more useful than another discussion about the dysgenics article.--[[User:Richard001|Richard001]] ([[User talk:Richard001|talk]]) 02:48, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. ''Dysgenics'' is a phenomenon occurring in human populations, never a proposed policy. ''Eugenics'' is a proposed policy. They are not the same thing. In addition, I agree with the sentiment expressed above, that the current ''Eugenics'' article is too long and that sub-articles need to contain most of the detail on specific topics. Dysgenics can be briefly mentioned in the ''Eugenics'' article, but for a full discussion it needs its own article.--[[User:Anthon.Eff|Anthon.Eff]] ([[User talk:Anthon.Eff|talk]]) 13:29, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
:*'''Comment''': Actually, scientifically speaking dysgenic trending -while claimed- hasn't been shown to happen in human populations. '''Real''' dysgenics is the study of deleterious ''mutations'' in animals, mostly fruit flies and mice at this point. The claim of a dysgenic effect on human populations is a [[WP:FRINGE]] concept.--[[User:Ramdrake|Ramdrake]] ([[User talk:Ramdrake|talk]]) 13:49, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
::*'''Comment''': My point was simply that dysgenics is a phenomenon, while eugenics is a policy. Whether "dysgenic trending" ''actually'' occurs would be an appropriate topic to discuss in an article on ''Dysgenics'' (though there wouldn't be space enough in the ''Eugenics'' article). Additionally, I'm not sure why you want to lump this together with [[Nazi UFOs]] and [[reptoid]]s as a [[WP:FRINGE]] topic--differential fertility (such that fertility is inversely related to socio-economic status) is not a controversial topic in demography.--[[User:Anthon.Eff|Anthon.Eff]] ([[User talk:Anthon.Eff|talk]]) 14:39, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
:::*Wouldn't ''eugenics'' also be a phenomenon if the genetic quality of populations was increasing? In any case I don't think 'policy' is a very good description. It has been considered everything from a science to a moral philosophy, and the word basically encompasses all of these things. Regarding being fringe, I would think the burden of proof would be on those who wanted to say dysgenics wasn't happening, as it seems basically inevitable given current patterns of reproduction and selective pressures in developed countries. Natural selection is mainly about preventing deterioration (rather than 'creating new information'), and is to a large extent relaxed in such environments. Natural selection also requires something to work with, and when people only have a couple of kids there isn't really anything to 'choose' from, so deterioration is the only possibility. I'm also skeptical about calling something fringe science when very little research seems to be done on the subject. Do any governments actually fund research to see if dysgenics is occurring? It seems to be a taboo topic that nobody will go near. [[User:Richard001|Richard001]] ([[User talk:Richard001|talk]]) 07:26, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
::::*'''Comment''': I agree, ''eugenics'' could be a phenomenon; ''dysgenics'', though, would never be a policy. For your other point: from the perspective of natural selection, all changes increase fitness: the "fit", by definition, outproduce others. So one cannot speak of a natural population moving in a "dysgenic" direction. The terms eugenic and dysgenic apply only to changes in human populations or their domesticates when human value systems dictate what is a good change and what is a bad change. Perhaps the most value-neutral and succinct approach is that of [[Ronald Fisher]] who observed (in the final chapters of ''[[The Genetical Theory of Natural Selection]]'') that the most socially fit people of his time were the least biologically fit (i.e., those with highest SES had the lowest fertility). Fisher's formulation appears to be what most people have in mind when they talk about dysgenic changes in human populations. The empirical evidence supports Fisher: there is nothing "fringe" about the fact of differential fertility. So I'm puzzled by some of the discussion on these pages: Why do some assert that "dysgenic trending" occurs only in non-human populations? Why do some assert that dysgenics is a "fringe" concept?--[[User:Anthon.Eff|Anthon.Eff]] ([[User talk:Anthon.Eff|talk]]) 22:45, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
:::::*'''Comment'''' I'll answer that one: the one conclusion one can draw about the differential fertility of the more highly educated would be that, in theory, generation after generation the average IQ of the population should decrease. However, this differential fertility has been going on for some time (remember that in medieval times, the more intelligent elements of the population were routinely sent to monasteries and abbeys for purposes of higher learning -- and usually ended up being monks or nuns? Nobles also had traditionnally fewer children than commoners.), and documented IQ averages of populations worlwide have been shown to ''increase'' rather than ''decrease'' since we started measuring IQs. The "expected" dysgenic effect of differential fertility isn't happening. There's even a mathematical model which explains why it's not happening. However, many deleterious mutations have been found in mice and flies, and for research purposes, scientists for some years have been deliberately breeding individuals with these mutations, among other goals for the purposes of building models of physiological processes. So, you're right on this one point: dysgenic trending doesn't seem to be happening at all under normal biological conditions; however, empirical evidence says that dysgenic trending on the trait of IQ in humans isn't happening either. Hope this answers some of your questions.--[[User:Ramdrake|Ramdrake]] ([[User talk:Ramdrake|talk]]) 23:03, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
::::*'''Comment''': Thanks, Ramdrake, for responding, and so quickly. I do, however, disagree with you on a few points. First, on medieval Europe: you should take a look at the work of Laura Betzig (lots of cites on Google Scholar); she has established pretty conclusively that the biological fitness of the nobility (in most cultural regions, not just Europe) was extremely high, relative to commoners (partly through the institution of wet-nursing, but mostly through extramarital copulations by noblemen). Second, I don't understand why children assigned to the priesthood or to orders would be any more intelligent than other children. Third, the medieval evidence is not really relevant to contemporary conditions anyway: dysgenic population changes (in the Fisher sense) first appear with the [[demographic transition]]; before then, those with higher SES actually had higher fertility (as Laura Betzig shows). Finally, IQ. To focus on IQ, rather than SES, is a deviation from Fisher. Why this deviation? [[Richard Lynn]] (and he is indeed a reputable academic, respected even by people who disagree with him, like [[James R. Flynn]]) may be partly to blame, since as an intelligence researcher he has focused on IQ. But there are obviously other reasons, and some of these (with proper sources) could surely be mentioned in an article on dysgenics. --[[User:Anthon.Eff|Anthon.Eff]] ([[User talk:Anthon.Eff|talk]]) 01:50, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

*'''Oppose'''. Eugenics is a system where one hopes to engineer a "better" population by not allowing certain people to have children (by forced sterilization, etc). Dysgenics is a system where one hopes to engineer a "better" population by making sure that everyone can have children (by subsidy, entitlement, etc); unlike eugenics, the goal of the program, but not its mechanism, is recognized by its proponents - the goal here is population equality. I understand the desire of certain individuals (with an idealogical axe to grind) in conflating the two concepts, but they are distinct. 18:32, 17 May 2008 (UTC)<small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/137.186.41.143|137.186.41.143]] ([[User talk:137.186.41.143|talk]]) </small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->{{spa|137.186.41.143}}
:*'''Comment''' you don't have a correct definition of either eugenics or dysgenics. You're confusing ''negative eugenics'' (or coercive eugenics) with ''eugenics'', and you're confusing ''dysgenics'' with ''welfare state''.--[[User:Ramdrake|Ramdrake]] ([[User talk:Ramdrake|talk]]) 19:54, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

*Tending towards '''merge'''/'''rename'''. I think we should have an article called [[scientific aspects of eugenics]] or something like that. Dysgenics seems to mix fact and value without recognizing it is doing so. For example, it begins with 'in population genetics...', as if it were a purely scientific matter. Whether or not something counts as 'deterioration' is clearly a matter of values though, as I've outlined at [[talk:dysgenics]]; it could just as well begin with 'in population ethics'. Further complicating things, the page has now been split into [[dysgenics (people)]] and [[dysgenics (biology)]], while still seeming to contain much of the same content in each article. I don't know enough about this but I don't think the term 'dysgenics' is actually used in the biological literature about non-humans; perhaps 'genetic deterioration' or 'dysgenesis'. [[User:Richard001|Richard001]] ([[User talk:Richard001|talk]]) 07:26, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Dysgenics should have its own article. Just because solution to the idea of Dysgenics is Eugenics doesn't mean they should not have separate articles.[[User:Sean0987|Sean0987]] ([[User talk:Sean0987|talk]]) 03:10, 5 June 2008 (UTC)Sean0987
**I think we should have an article about the scientific aspects (and I don't think ''of eugenics'' is the best name either, but I'm not sure exactly what to call it), but I also don't think dysgenics is a good name. Something more neutral like 'recent, current and future evolution of human beings' would be better, but again it's an horridly clumsy title. [[User:Richard001|Richard001]] ([[User talk:Richard001|talk]]) 01:45, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' This is like the 4th time a merge has been suggested by the same group of individuals. --[[User:Zero g|Zero g]] ([[User talk:Zero g|talk]]) 13:09, 3 July 2008 (UTC) {{spa|Zero g}}
::'''Comment''' Please comment on content, not on the editors. I would appreciate if you could refactor your comment accordingly.--[[User:Ramdrake|Ramdrake]] ([[User talk:Ramdrake|talk]]) 15:13, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

::Closed with the result '''no consensus''' '''(2,3,1)'''. [[User:Wsiegmund|Walter Siegmund]] [[User_talk:Wsiegmund|(talk)]] 18:45, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
{{discussion bottom}}

== Notability of a book by [[Richard Lynn]] ==

I have created an article [[Dysgenics: Genetic Deterioration in Modern Populations]]. One editor felt it didn't meet the notability guidelines, and has since decided to let it go, but I would like to know if any others feel it should be deleted (I don't want to work on something that's just going to be deleted later on). [[User:Richard001|Richard001]] ([[User talk:Richard001|talk]]) 10:53, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

== "Opponents argue that eugenics is immoral" ==

Saying something is '[[immoral]]' isn't an good reason to believe we we shouldn't do it because something that is immoral is, ''by definition'', something that the speaker thinks should not be done; the "argument" begs the question. Even if this is what opponents of eugenics say, I think we should give them some charity and replace this sentence in the lead section with the reasons why they think it is immoral (opponents of eugenics think it is immoral by definition, while proponents think not having eugenics is immoral, by definition; surely this is obvious to everybody). [[User:Richard001|Richard001]] ([[User talk:Richard001|talk]]) 02:19, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

== Wikiquote page ==

Have created a page at quote [[q:eugenics|here]]. Please help build it up. [[User:Richard001|Richard001]] ([[User talk:Richard001|talk]]) 02:36, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

== Myths about eugenics==

I think that a page about myths surrounding eugenics, must be created.
[[Myths about eugenics]] can be a good choice, for the name of this article.[[Special:Contributions/201.9.137.72|201.9.137.72]] ([[User talk:201.9.137.72|talk]]) 16:07, 24 June 2008 (UTC)agre22

==Australia section==

A couple of things don't make sense in the Australia section. It says that it was a "white supremacist" policy to encourage the mixture and assimilation of native Australians. Wow, does this not make sense or what? If they believed they were inferior why would they purposefully seek to assimilate and intermix with them? Quite the contrary, the policy seems to have been parallel to modern liberal views that genes mean nothing and that exclusively how someone is raised separates him between savage/civilized, and that the mixed natives could be "civilized" by being taken away from their tribal upbringing. They were trying to raise "civilized" native Australian children by their own standards, so this was indeed a very strange policy, but one that would make zero sense to actual white supremacists,. In fact, it would make sense more to their arch enemies, cultural Marxists. White supremacists would have obviously been against the idea of bringing "half-castes" into their culture/race by the very nature of that ideology wanting "purity". There are also a couple of incomplete sentences in the section. It almost seems like a lazy drive-by smearing attempt of the entire article or subject, than an accurate critique of Australia's policy. The article can/needs to be there, but desperately needs less biased and assumptive writing or at least some more sensible logic as to how those seeking to assimilate mixed children were comically ironic, self-defeating "white supremacists". Why would 'white supremacists' have created a program to racially preserve aborigines in the FIRST PLACE? Crude bit of legislation, yes. White supremacy? No.

thanks for reading...
<small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:4.246.212.149|4.246.212.149]] ([[User talk:4.246.212.149|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/4.246.212.149|contribs]]) 00:12, 2008 July 29</small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

:Thank you for your suggestion{{{{#if:notsubsted||subst:}}#if:|&#32;regarding [[:{{{1}}}]]}}. When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a [[wiki]], so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the '''{{lcfirst:{{int:edit}}}}''' link at the top. The Wikipedia community encourages you to [[Wikipedia:Be bold in updating pages|be bold in updating pages]]. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out [[Wikipedia:how to edit a page|''how to edit a page'']], or use the [[Wikipedia:Sandbox|sandbox]] to try out your editing skills. [[Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers|New contributors are always welcome]]. You don't even need to [[Special:Userlogin|log in]] (although there are [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|many reasons why you might want to]]).

:Content should be based on [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] and should be [[WP:V|verifiable]]. Material that is not adequately sourced and disputed may be removed. [[User:Wsiegmund|Walter Siegmund]] [[User_talk:Wsiegmund|(talk)]] 03:04, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

== Liberal eugenics ==

I've expanded and improved the '''[[Liberal eugenics]]''' article. Feel free to comment on [[Talk:Liberal eugenics]] page. --[[User:Loremaster|Loremaster]] ([[User talk:Loremaster|talk]]) 01:21, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

==Image copyright problem with Image:EnthanasiePropaganda.jpg==
The image [[:Image:EnthanasiePropaganda.jpg]] is used in this article under a claim of [[WP:NFC|fair use]], but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the [[WP:NFCC|requirements for such images]] when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an [[Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guideline|explanation]] linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

:* That there is a [[Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guideline|non-free use rationale]] on the image's description page for the use in this article.
:* That this article is linked to from the image description page.
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This is an automated notice by [[User:FairuseBot|FairuseBot]]. For assistance on the image use policy, see [[Wikipedia:Media copyright questions]]. --12:49, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

== Pseudoscience category? ==

I don't understand how eugenics can be considered pseudoscience &mdash; it's ''immoral'' certainly, but it's not a ''science'' in and of itself, nor does it claim to be. It's simply a (mis-)application of other, well-founded sciences, with a (questionable) goal in mind. However, since the category tag has been added and removed several times, I wanted to discuss it here before proceeding further. --[[User:Sapphic|Sapphic]] ([[User talk:Sapphic|talk]]) 02:00, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

== Prejucised genetical determinism? ==

Did the eugenics proponents before [[World War II]] have any real means to tell if a trait was heritary or not? Or did they just assume them to be heritary unless they had [[evidence]] to the contuary? I wounder because many traits the claimed to be heritary has turnet out to not be so.

2008-10-13 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.

Revision as of 15:36, 13 October 2008

Saint Bernadette
Bernadette of Lourdes
BornJanuary 7, 1844
Lourdes, France
DiedApril 16, 1879
Nevers, France
Venerated inRoman Catholic Church
CanonizedDecember 8, 1933, Rome by Pope Pius XI
Major shrineLourdes
FeastFebruary 18 (in France)
April 16 (everywhere else)
PatronageSick people, poverty, the family, Lourdes, shepherds

Saint Bernadette (born Marie-Bernarde Soubirous; January 7 1844 – April 16 1879), was a miller's daughter from the town of Lourdes in southern France. From February 11 to July 16, 1858, she reported eighteen apparitions of "a Lady". Despite initial skepticism from the Catholic Church, these claims were eventually declared to be worthy of belief after a canonical investigation, and the apparition is known as Our Lady of Lourdes. After her death, Bernadette's body remained incorrupt, and the shrine at Lourdes went on to become a major site for pilgrimage, attracting millions of Catholics each year. On December 8, 1933 she was canonized as a saint by the Catholic Church; her Feast Day is celebrated on April 16.

Early life

Bernadette (the sobriquet by which she was universally known) was the daughter of François Soubirous (1807–1871), a miller, and his wife Louise (née Castérot) (1825–1866), a laundress, and was the eldest of five children who survived infancy. Louise actually gave birth to nine children (Bernadette, Jean died when born, Jean-Marie 1848–1851, Toinette 1846, Jean-Marie b. 1851, Justin 1855–1865, Bernard-Pierre b. 1859, Jean 1864–1864 and a baby girl named Louise 1866–1866). Bernadette was baptized at the local parish church, St. Pierre's, on January 9, which was her parents' wedding anniversary. Bernadette's godmother was Bernarde Casterot, her mother's sister. Hard times had fallen on France and the family lived in extreme poverty. Neighbours reported that the family lived in unusual harmony, apparently relying on their love and support for one another and their religious devotion.

Visions

Bernadette's impoverished family lived in a tiny room shared between a whole family. On February 11 1858, Bernadette, then aged 14, was out gathering firewood and bones with her sister and a friend at the grotto of Massabielle outside Lourdes, when she had an experience that completely changed her life and the town of Lourdes where she had lived. It was on this day that Bernadette had the first of 18 visions of what she termed "a small young lady" (uo petito damizelo) standing in a niche in the rock. Her sister and her friend stated that they had seen nothing. On her next visit, she said that the "beautiful lady" asked her to return to the grotto every day for fifteen days. At first her mother had forbidden her from going but Bernadette persuaded her mother to allow her to go. The apparition did not identify herself until the seventeenth vision, although the townspeople who believed she was telling the truth assumed she saw the Virgin Mary. Bernadette never claimed it to be Mary, calling what she saw simply "Aquerò" (or rather "that thing"), aquerò (IPA [a'k(e)rɔ]) being Gascon Occitan for that. Bernadette described the lady as wearing a white veil, a blue girdle and had a golden rose on each foot; she held a rosary of pearls.

Bernadette's story caused a sensation with the townspeople, who were divided in their opinions on whether or not Bernadette was telling the truth. She soon had a large number of people following her on her daily journey, some out of curiosity and others who firmly believed that they were witnessing a miracle.

Bernadette Soubirous

The other contents of Bernadette's visions were simple, and focused on the need for prayer and penance. However, at the thirteenth of the alleged apparition on March 2, Bernadette told her family that the lady had said "Please go to the priests and tell them that a chapel is to be built here. Let processions come hither." Accompanied by two of her aunts, Bernadette duly went to parish priest Father Dominique Peyramale with the request. A brilliant but often roughspoken man with little belief in claims of visions and miracles, Peyramale told Bernadette that the lady must identify herself. Bernadette said that on her next visitation she repeated the priest's words to the lady, but that the lady bowed a little, smiled and said nothing. Then Father Peyramale told Bernadette to prove that the lady was real (that is, objectively) by asking her to perform a miracle. He requested that she make the rose bush beneath the niche where she appeared to Bernadette bud and flower in the middle of February.

As Bernadette later reported to her family and to church and civil investigators, at the ninth visitation the lady told Bernadette to drink from the spring that flowed under the rock, and eat the plants that grew freely there. Although there was no known spring, and the ground was muddy, Bernadette saw the lady pointing with her finger to the spot, and said later she assumed the lady meant that the spring was underground. She did as she was told by first digging a muddy patch with her bare hands and then attempting to drink the brackish drops.[1] She tried three times, failing each time. On the fourth try, the droplets were clearer and she drank them. She then ate some of the plants. When finally she turned to the crowd, her face was smeared with mud and no spring had been revealed. Understandably, this caused much skepticism among onlookers who shouted, "She's a fraud!" or "She's insane!" while embarrassed relatives wiped the adolescent's face clean with a handkerchief. In the next few days, however, a spring began to flow from the muddy patch first dug by Bernadette. Some devout people followed her example by drinking and washing in the water, which was soon reported to have healing properties.

Statue of Our Lady of Lourdes in Lourdes, France.

In the 150 years since Bernadette dug up the spring, 67 cures have been "verified" by the Lourdes Medical Bureau as "inexplicable", but only after what the Church claims are "extremely rigorous scientific and medical examinations" failed to find any other explanation. The Lourdes Commission which examined Bernadette after the visions also ran an intensive analysis on the water, and found that while it has a high mineral content, it contains nothing out of the ordinary that would account for the cures attributed to it. Bernadette herself said that it was faith and prayer that cured the sick.

Her 16th vision, which she stated went on for over an hour, was on March 25. During this vision, the second of two "miracles of the candle" is reported to have occurred. Bernadette was holding a lighted candle; during the vision it burned down, and the flame was said to be in direct contact with her skin for over fifteen minutes, but she apparently showed no sign of experiencing any pain or injury. This was said to be witnessed by many people present, including the town physician, Dr. Pierre Romaine Dozous, who timed and later documented it. According to his report, there was no sign that her skin was in any way affected, so he monitored Bernadette closely but did not intervene. After her "vision" ended, the doctor said that he examined her hand but found no evidence of any burning, and that she was completely unaware of what had been happening. The doctor then said that he briefly applied a lighted candle to her hand, and she reacted immediately. It is unclear if observers other than Dozous were sufficiently close to witness if the candle was continuously in contact with Bernadette’s skin.

According to Bernadette's account, during that same visitation she again asked the lady her name but the lady just smiled back. She repeated the question three more times and finally heard the lady say, in Occitan, "I am the Immaculate Conception" (Qué soï era immaculado councepcioũ, a phonetic transcription of Que soi era immaculada concepcion by someone not literate in Occitan). Four years earlier, Pope Pius IX had promulgated the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception; that, alone of all human beings who have ever lived (save for Jesus, Adam, and Eve), the Virgin Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin. However, this was not well known to Catholics at large at that time, being generally confined to discussion amongst the clergy. Those who did know about it, through devotions such as the Miraculous Medal, often assumed it referred to the Virgin Birth. It certainly was not an expression known to a simple under-educated peasant girl who could barely read. Her parents, teachers and priests all later testified that she had never previously heard the words 'immaculate conception' from them.

Bernadette was a sickly child; she had cholera in infancy and suffered most of her life from asthma, and some of the people who interviewed her following her revelation of the visions thought her simple-minded. However, despite being rigorously interviewed by officials of both the Catholic Church and the French government, she stuck consistently to her story. Her behavior during this period is said to set the example by which all who claim visions and mystical experiences are now judged by Church authorities.

Impact of her visions

Among the reported visions of Jesus and Mary the impact of her visions can be viewed as being proportionally of a high level of significance.

Her request to the local priest to build a chapel at the site of her visions eventually gave rise to a number of chapels and churches at Lourdes. The Sanctuary of Our Lady of Lourdes is now one of the major Catholic pilgrimage sites in the world. One of the churches built at the site, the Basilica of St. Pius X can itself accommodate 25,000 people and was dedicated by the future Pope John XXIII when he was the Papal Nuncio to France.

Close to 5,000,000 pilgrims visit Lourdes (population of about 15,000) every year, with individuals and groups coming from all over the world. Within France, only Paris has more hotels than Lourdes. With 2008 being the 150th anniversary of the 1858 apprations to Bernadette, it is expected that 8,000,000 pilgrims will vistit Lourdes during the year. Lourdes is now a major center where Catholic pilgrims from around the globe reinforce their beliefs as they visit the sanctuary, hence strengthening the Catholic Church as a whole.

Later years

Disliking the attention she was attracting, Bernadette went to the hospice school run by the Sisters of Charity and Christian Instruction, where she finally learned to read and write. She then joined the Sisters of Charity of Nevers convent moving into their motherhouse at Nevers at the age of 22. She spent the rest of her brief life there, working as an assistant in the infirmary and later as a sacristan, creating beautiful embroidery for altar cloths and vestments. During a severe asthma attack, she asked for water from the Lourdes spring, and her symptoms subsided, never to return [citation needed]. However, she did not seek healing in this way when she later contracted tuberculosis of the bone in the right knee. She had followed the development of Lourdes as a pilgrimage shrine while she still lived at Lourdes, but was not present for the consecration of the Basilica of the Immaculate Conception there in 1876. She eventually died of her long-term illness at the age of 35 on April 16, 1879.

She was canonized on December 8, 1933 as the Catholic patron saint of sick persons, of the family, and of poverty.

2009 has been declared "The Year of Bernadette".

Exhumations

St. Bernadette Soubirous at Nevers was exhumed in 1909 after thirty years in a damp grave. She is pictured here with a thin wax mask.

Bishop Gauthey of Nevers and the Church exhumed the body of Bernadette Soubirous on September 22, 1909, in the presence of representatives appointed by the postulators of the cause, two doctors, and a sister of the community. They found that although the crucifix in her hand and the rosary had both oxidized, her body appeared "incorrupt"—preserved from decomposition. This was cited as one of the miracles to support her canonization. They washed and reclothed her body before burial in a new double casket.

The Church exhumed the corpse a second time on April 3, 1919. The body still appeared preserved, however, her face was slightly discolored possibly due to the washing process (by the sisters) of the first exhumation.

In 1925, the church exhumed the body for a third time. They took relics, which were sent to Rome. A precise imprint of the face was molded so that the firm of Pierre Imans in Paris could make a light wax mask based on the imprints and on some genuine photos. This was common practice for relics in France, as it was feared that although the body was uncorrupted, the blackish tinge to the face and the sunken eyes and nose would make an unpleasant impression on the public. Imprints of the hands were also taken for the presentation of the body. The remains were then placed in a gold and crystal reliquary in the Chapel of Saint Bernadette at the mother house in Nevers. The site is visited by many pilgrims and the body of Saint Bernadette to this day remains intact despite being nearly one hundred and thirty years old.[2]

Fictional treatments

Her life was given a fictionalised treatment in Franz Werfel's novel The Song of Bernadette, which was later adapted into a 1943 film of the same name starring Jennifer Jones as Bernadette (and the uncredited Linda Darnell as the Immaculate Conception). Jones won her only Best Actress Oscar for this portrayal. In 1961 Daniele Ajoret portrayed Bernadette in "Bernadette of Lourdes". A more recent version of Bernadette's life is presented in two films (1988: "Bernadette" and 1989: "The Passion of Bernadette") by Jean Delannoy, and starring Sydney Penny in the lead role.

Notes and references

  1. ^ The following account is reported by Abbé François Trochu in his biography, Saint Bernadette Soubirous, Tan Books: Illinois, 1985.
  2. ^ The Body of St. Bernadette at Catholic Pilgrims of Mary and Jesus website

Bibliography

  • The Miracle Joint at Lourdes From "Essays " by Woolsey Teller, Copyright 1945 by The Truth Seeker Company, Inc. Critique of the Lourdes story.
  • Lourdes: In Bernadette's Footsteps, by Father Joseph Bordes, Copyright 2005 by MSM Company - Tells Bernadette's story, and describes the tourism at Lourdes.
  • The Song of Bernadette Franz Werfel's classic abridged by John Martin
  • Bernadette of Lourdes (St. Gildard, Nevers, France, 1926)
  • Visage de Bernadette (Rene Laurentin, Lourdes 1978), (French)
  • The Song of Bernadette (Franz Werfel), 1942 (English)
  • A La Glorie du Lys de Marie (Sisters of Nevers), August 15, 1926 (French)
  • Bernadette of Lourdes (Frances Parkinson Keyes), 1955
  • Lourdes: Its Inhabitants, Its Pilgrims, and Its Miracles (Richard Clarke, SJ), 1888
  • Annales de Notre Dame de Lourdes (Missionaries of the Immaculate Conception), Lourdes 1871 (French)
  • The Wonders of Massabielle at Lourdes (Rev. S. Pruvost), 1925
  • Notre Dame de Lourdes (Henri Lasserre), Paris 1870 (French)
  • Bernadette (Henri Lasserre), Paris 1879 (year of Bernadette's death), (French)
  • Our Lady of Lourdes (Henri Lasserre), June 1906 (English)
  • Our Lady of Lourdes (Henri Lasserre), 1875 (English)
  • La Sainte Virge a Lourdes, 1877 (French)
  • Das Lied von Bernadette (Franz Werfel), 1953 (German)
  • The Happening at Lourdes (Alan Neame), 1967
  • Lourdes (Ruth Harris), 1999
  • After Bernadette (Don Sharkey), 1945
  • And I Shall Be Healed (Edeltraud Fulda), 1960
  • Saint Bernadette (Margaret Trouncer), 1964
  • 15 Days of Prayer with Sainte Bernadette of Lourdes (Francois Vayne), 1999
  • A Queen's Command (Anna Kuhn), 1947
  • Bernadette (Marcelle Auclair), 1958
  • A Holy Life: St. Bernadette of Lourdes (Patricia McEachern), 2005
  • The Story of Bernadette (Rev. J. Lane), 1997
  • The Wonder of Lourdes (John Oxenham), 1926
  • Lourdes (Émile Zola), 1895 (German)
  • Bernadette Speaks (Rene Laurentin), 2000
  • St. Bernadette (Leonard Von Matt / Francis Trochu), 1957
  • Bernadette of Lourdes (J.H. Gregory), 1914 (1st U.S. book)
  • Bernadette of Lourdes (Therese Taylor), 2003
  • Lourdes (Émile Zola), 2000 (English)
  • The Miracle of Bernadette (Margaret Gray Blanton), 1958
  • My Witness, Bernadette (J.B. Estrade), 1951
  • St. Bernadette Soubirous (Abbe Francois Trochu), 1957
  • Saint Bernadette Soubirous (Francis Trochu), 1957
  • We Saw Her (B.G. Sandhurst), 1953

Magazines and articles

  • "L'Illustration Journal Universal": Story covering Bernadette and apparitions from time of apparitions (October 23, 1858)
  • Election of Pope Pius X (August 15, 1903): "The Graphic" England
  • "The Illustrated London News": Funeral of Pope Pius IX (February 23, 1878)
  • "La Nacion" - Buenos Aires, Argentina (Newspaper Movie section advertising The Song of Bernadette (September 12, 1944)
  • "The New York Times": Pope Pius X Dies, (August 20, 1914)
  • "The London Ilustrated News": The Election of Pope Pius XI (February 11, 1922)
  • "L'Opinion Publique": The Funeral of Pope Pius IX (March 14, 1878)
  • "The Illustrated London News": The Conclave & Election of the Pope (March 9, 1878)
  • "The Graphic": With the Lourdes Pilgrims (October 7, 1876)
  • "Harpers Weekly": French Pilgrims - Romish Superstitions (November 16, 1872)
  • "The Graphic": A Trip to the Pyrenees (October 12, 1872)
  • "Harpers Weekly": The Last French Miracle (November 20, 1858) - Recounts actual happenings at the time of apparitions
  • "St. Paul Dispatch": Throne of St. Peter Made Vacant by the Death of Pope Leo XIII, (July 21, 1903)
  • "St. Paul Dispatch": Cardinal Sarto (St. Pope Pius X) of Venice Called to Throne of St. Peter, (August 5, 1903)
  • "The Minneapolis Journal": Pope Pius X is Reported Dead; Relapse Caused by Grief Over War (August 19, 1914)

External links

Wikimedia Commons has media related to Bernadette Soubirous.
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