Talk:Louis Slotin

Chalk circles

Allegedly, Slotin also used chalk to mark the positions of everybody in the room to allow later study of the effects of doses of radition received at different distances from the experiment. Does any know any more about this? The only reference I can find immediately online is here, which given the tone of the piece, I do not trust. Steved424 18:34, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Another reference .. This is the Google cache of this link, which is currently unreachable (for me, at least) Steved424 18:36, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Misinformation about observable radiation effects

The embellishments about blue glow, heat wave and sour taste in the mouth are not convincing. This page from the Canadian Nuclear Society explicitly refutes them. --18.85.9.22 06:57, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Criticality accident has discussions of the blue glow and heat effect. --Steved424 14:57, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Source?

Do we have a source for the recent edit:

"Nine months previously on August 21, 1945, the same 6.2 kg plutonium core (later nicknamed the "demon core" because of these accidents) had produced a burst of ionizing radiation that caused lethal radiation poisoning to Harry Daghlian, an experimentor who had made a mistake while working alone doing neutron reflection experiments on it. This core, subject to experiments so shortly after the end of the war, had probably been the intended core for the 3rd nuclear weapon never used on Japan."

I'm not saying its not real, just a bit dramatic and speculative. --Deglr6328 05:13, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

It's dramatic, all right, but true from all I've read. It was named the "demon core" by people later. Clearly a bomb core, nickel coating and all. As for it being the core of the third atom bomb never used on Japan (but nearly shipped), we know there was a third bomb ready to go, and there can't have been too many bomb cores in August 21, 1945, because we know the bombing of Japan would have been limited at that time (had they not given up) by plutonium production. From Rhodes we know the Project was turning cores out as fast as it could and they were the limiting factor to rate of bomb drop. Groves thought he might *eventually* get to one bomb per 3 weeks, or 2 kg per week production rate. But they weren't there in August 45.SBHarris 16:42, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Stargate crap????

Why keep this on a serious page??? "In the 5th season of Stargate SG-1 series, in the episode Meridian, Dr. Daniel Jackson (one of the main characters) died under very similar circumstances to Slotin's death, being exposed to a lethal dose of radiation while deactivating an unstable naqahdriah reactor that would otherwise have caused a nuclear catastrophe."

Maybe pop culture for a subject page. But I hate to mess up a real man's bio with it. Perhaps if criticality accidents has its own page (I haven't checked) it can go on the pop section there. SBHarris 16:43, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I've added it to a pop culture section which I stuck in the Criticality Accidents Wiki. We can put all the stuff which doesn't reference Slotin or Daghlian by name, perhaps there. SBHarris 16:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I removed the references to Stargate and Star Trek (of all things) as they had no relation to the article Alastairward 09:23, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I imagine that these references could go on some page with a subject of bravery, self sacrifice, for the greater good, etc. But I hope not. :) --SunDog 21:23, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Machinery removed?

I seem to recall that the "screwdriver trick" was one that Slotin invented due to his distrust of a machine that was intended to make these experiments. More specifically, he felt that the machine could potentially drop the reflector, or force it onto the core without a simple way to remove it. He then removed the device, and later the spacers as well. Does this ring any bells? Maury 22:19, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Fiction

I moved this section from article to this Talk page because it has no place in a serious bio. These could be merged to the various linked articles I suppose:

• Dexter Masters—The Accident (1955)
• Fat Man and Little Boy (1989 movie)—the character of Michael Merriman (played by John Cusack) is based on Slotin
• E. L. Doctorow's City of God (2000) briefly references Slotin's criticality incident.
• Bobbie Ann Mason's book An Atomic Romance (2005) also references Slotin's criticality incident.
• Paul Mullin's play, Louis Slotin Sonata (2006), examines the incident and fictional deathbed hallucinations of Slotin.[1]
• The 1947 MGM movie, The beginning or the End, was the first Hollywood film to tell the story of the development of the atomic bomb. It featured actor Robert Walker as a character who was killed in an accident similar to the real-life Slotin criticality event.
• The Stargate SG-1 episode Meridian was based on events very similar to Slotin's criticality incident.

-Wikianon 06:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I think these are cultural references that make perfect sense to include in a "serious bio". Apparently, Slotin's story, and his acts helped to make real the dangers and effects of nuclear research. I think these should go back into the article in a cultural references section. 71.39.78.68 (talk) 03:17, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I could probably incorporate them into the "Legacy" section I plan on writing. Nishkid64 (talk) 05:17, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I only added the Louis Slotin Sonata, The Accident and Fat Man and Little Boy to the article. I could not find reliable sources for all other fictional references to Slotin. Nishkid64 (talk) 06:14, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Good article nomination on hold

This article's Good Article promotion has been put on hold. During review, some issues were discovered that can be resolved without a major re-write. This is how the article, as of November 30, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: Yes, but see comments

2. Factually accurate?: Yes

3. Broad in coverage?: Yes

4. Neutral point of view?: No

5. Article stability? Yes

6. Images?: Ok

Please address these matters soon and then leave a note here showing how they have been resolved. After 48 hours the article should be reviewed again. If these issues are not addressed within 7 days, the article may be failed without further notice. Thank you for your work so far.— Ruslik 14:00, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

There are a few issues that should be dealt with:

1) Please, shrink the lead. It should be 1.5–2 times shorter.

2) The lead contains phrase "He separated the two half spheres using the blade of a screwdriver. The screwdriver slipped, and one of the half-spheres underwent a prompt critical reaction that resulted in a burst of hard radiation. Slotin reacted instinctively to the sudden release of heat from the reaction by dropping the beryllium half-sphere to the ground.", which is an inaccurate summary of the events (the description in the section 'The prompt criticality accident' is OK). First, the berilium halfsphere can not undergo critical reaction, because it is made of berilium. The chain reaction actually happened in the core. Second, he did not separate halfspheres with screwdriver, he actually kept them appart with screwdriver. Third, he did not drop the halfsphere, he actually lifted and then dropped the upper halfsphere. The difference is subtle but important.

Ruslik 14:00, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I believe I have resolved the factual errors in the lead. I am currently in the process of trimming the lead down, as well. Nishkid64 (talk) 21:22, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I have trimmed the lead significantly ([2]). Please tell me if you think it should be shorter. Thanks, Nishkid64 (talk) 21:33, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I will promote this article. Ruslik 19:41, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! Nishkid64 (talk) 21:35, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Sources

Have you checked Richard Rhodes' The Making of the Atomic Bomb for information on this person/event? It is one of the most comprehensive treatments of the Manhattan Project and everything surrounding it that I have seen. It should be easily available at a public library or bookstore. Awadewit | talk 05:41, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is available at my university library. I will look for the book tomorrow. Nishkid64 (talk) 06:36, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

In addition to being a vastly entertaining and informative read. This Pulizer-prize winning book should be required reading in every high school. SBHarris 01:27, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Copy editing questions

I have just done my first run-through. Honestly, I thought the article was very well-written. Some things I changed were probably more a matter of personal taste, than true "errors", so feel free to change those back. I tried to eliminate some of the redundancy that I saw since I noticed that one of the reviewers had mentioned that. Here are my questions:

• "pogroms of Russia" - which progroms? best to identify with a leader or regime
  • I don't know the specific pogrom. Nishkid64 (talk) 01:03, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Ah, well that's the way it goes sometimes. `Awadewit | talk

• what subject did Slotin receive his Masters degree in?
  • I will look into this more, but so far, I can't seem to find any mention of what field the degree was in. Nishkid64 (talk) 00:25, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Alas. `Awadewit | talk

• With the assistance of one of his mentors, he obtained a fellowship to study at King's College London, under the instruction of A. J. Allmand. - Why is this important? Give us some information about Allmand, perhaps?
  • Details added. Allmand was a published scholar in applied electrochemistry and photochemistry. He made a number of advancements in the field. Nishkid64 (talk) 00:25, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Excellent. `Awadewit | talk

• While at King's College, Slotin distinguished himself as an amateur boxer by winning the college's amateur bantam-weight boxing championship. To his friends back home, he managed to give an impression that he had fought for the Spanish Republic and flown fighter jets with the Royal Air Force. - The phrase "to his friends back home" signals that there is a relationship between these two sentences, but I don't think that you intended this. It is a bit jarring.
  • Fixed. Nishkid64 (talk) 00:25, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Much clearer. Awadewit | talk 06:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

• To his friends back home, he managed to give the impression that he had fought for the Spanish Republic and flown fighter jets with the Royal Air Force. - "he managed to give" or "he gave" - How intentional was this?
  • Changed to "he gave". I don't know if it was intentional. That detail was never specified. Nishkid64 (talk) 00:25, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Hard to know anyway. Awadewit | talk 06:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

• Author Robert Jungt recounts in his book Brighter Than a Thousand Suns, "[e]ver since his earliest youth [Slotin] had gone in search of fighting, excitement, and adventure. He had volunteered for service in the Spanish Civil War, more for the sake of the thrill of it than on political grounds." - I'm not sure what this quote is supposed to support - it comes right after the claim regarding Slotin and his friends - was Jungt a friend of Slotin's?
  • Robert Jungk (I originally misspelled) was the first writer to explore into the lives of the scientists who worked on the Manhattan Project. Nishkid64 (talk) 00:25, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Important to know - thanks. Awadewit | talk 06:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

• From 1939 to 1940, Slotin collaborated with Professor Evans, the head of the university's biochemistry department, to develop radiocarbon from the cyclotron. - Who is Evans? (By the way, we usually just use first and last names and then an appellation like "physicist"). Does one really "develop" something from a cyclotron? I really have no idea, but the diction seemed a bit odd to me.
  • Earl Evans was a professor of biochemistry at UChicago. I expanded on the men's work together. Also, I have replaced "develop" with "produce", since they were making radiocarbon and Carbon-11 from the cyclotron. Nishkid64 (talk) 01:02, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Much better. Awadewit | talk 06:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

• At Los Alamos, Slotin's duties consisted of criticality testing, first with Otto Robert Frisch's uranium experiments, and then with plutonium cores. - Can you do "criticality testing" on an experiment or just on a core?
  • On a core. I have reworded to "first with uranium in Otto Robert Frisch's experiments, and later with plutonium cores." Nishkid64 (talk) 01:02, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
    • I think this is more accurate. Awadewit | talk 06:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

• Slotin received his United States citizenship in 1946. - This must go somewhere else - it is a lone sentence unassociated with the topic of the section.
  • Removed. Nishkid64 (talk) 01:02, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

• Check link for "delta" - I wasn't sure what to pick on the disambiguation page.
  • Link removed. The delta I am referring to does not exist in article form. There are mentions of the word in Plutonium, though. Nishkid64 (talk) 01:02, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Oh, sorry. Awadewit | talk 06:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

• On May 21, 1946, Slotin and seven other colleagues were in a laboratory performing an experiment that involved the creation of the beginning of the fission reaction by placing two half-spheres of beryllium (a neutron reflector) around the plutonium core. - The creation of the beginning of a fission reaction" or "the creation of a fission reaction"? I wasn't totally sure.
  • It's creation of the beginning. It's a multi-step process, and they were working on one of the earlier steps. I thought it sounded a bit awkward, but I could not think of a better wording. Nishkid64 (talk) 01:02, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
    • How about "one of the first steps"? Awadewit | talk 06:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
      • I'm not a fan of the "of....of..." repetition, but I think this is clearer. Nishkid64 (talk) 07:05, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
• At first, the incident was classified and not made known even within the laboratory; Robert Oppenheimer and other colleagues later reported severe emotional distress at having to carry on with normal work and social activities while they secretly knew that their colleague lay dying. - This doesn't make sense - if it wasn't known within the lab, how did Oppenheimer and others know? Did only some people know?
  • Oppenheimer just managed the project. He was rarely, if never, present in the labs. And yes, only the people "high up" in the ranks knew about the incident. I figure lab scientists knew Slotin was injured, but they did not know the exact circumstances. Nishkid64 (talk) 01:02, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
    • I take it that is speculation on your part, though, which cannot be included in the article. Awadewit | talk 06:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

• Why "Prompt criticality accident" and not just "Criticality accident"? It is not a commonly known phrase.
  • Done. Nishkid64 (talk) 01:02, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

• Slotin's radiation dose was identical to the amount he would have received had he been 4,800-foot (1,463.0 m) away from the detonation of an atomic bomb. - This should say "feet", but I don't know how to change the template.
  • Template removed. I added a manual conversion. Nishkid64 (talk) 01:02, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

• The core, which later was termed the "Demon core" due to the accidents it had led to, was subject to a number of experiments shortly after the end of the war and was used in the ABLE test of the Crossroads series. - "series of bombs"?
  • Reworded to "ABLE detonation, during the Crossroads series of nuclear weapon testing." Nishkid64 (talk) 01:02, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Better. Awadewit | talk 06:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

• However, Robert B. Brode argues that the accident was avoidable and that Slotin was not using proper procedures, endangering the others in the lab along with himself. - Tell us why this criticism is important - who is Brode?
  • This criticism comes from someone within the Manhattan Project. The project leaders maintained Slotin's bravery, but Brode stated that the accident was avoidable. Also, Brode was a top physicist in the project. I have made a mention of that in the article. Nishkid64 (talk) 01:02, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
    • It is always good to know who is making the criticism. :) Some people aren't as reliable as others. `Awadewit | talk 06:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Lead

I do agree with the one reviewer who thought the lead was too detailed. Leads are supposed to summarize, not give the entire article away! Give the reader a reason to go on. Intrigue them a bit. Here is a rewrite I did of the lead. Since it was rather substantial, I did not replace it.

Louis Slotin (December 1, 1910 – May 30, 1946) was a Canadian physicist and chemist who took part in the Manhattan Project. He was born and raised in the North End of Winnipeg, Manitoba. After earning both his Bachelor of Science and Master of Science degrees from the University of Manitoba, Slotin attended King's College London, where he obtained his doctorate in physical chemistry in 1936. Afterwards, he joined the University of Chicago as a research associate to help design a cyclotron. In 1942, he was invited to participate in the Manhattan Project.

As part of the Manhattan Project, Slotin performed experiments with uranium and plutonium cores to determine their critical mass values. After World War II, Slotin continued his research at Los Alamos National Laboratory. On May 21, 1946, Slotin accidentally began a fission reaction, which released a burst of hard radiation. Slotin was rushed to the hospital, and died nine days later on May 30, the victim of the second criticality accident in history.

Slotin was hailed as a hero by the United States government for reacting quickly enough to prevent the deaths of his colleagues. However, some [scholars? physicists?] argue that this was a preventable accident. The accident and its aftermath have been dramatized in fiction.

I hope this was helpful. Awadewit | talk 07:00, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for trimming the lead. I have added your version to the article. I will look at the rest of the comments tomorrow. Nishkid64 (talk) 07:08, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Though I don't necessary agree with the idea that you're not supposed to "give away" the article in the LEAD. Given the space constraint (3-4 paragraphs max for a LEAD), that's exactly what you're TRYING to do. Wikipedia isn't a short story, or a joke with a punch line, or a strip-tease. It's an encyclopedia. It's not a meal, and the LEAD isn't dessert! Feel perfectly free to put the "best parts" right up front, if you can compress them enough without explanation. Think "executive summary." SBHarris 07:15, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I think the lead covers the main aspects of his life. I was struggling to trim the lead down, but I'm happy with Awadewit's work. Everything I originally wanted to get across is still there. Nishkid64 (talk) 07:24, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Additional references

Copying this list to here from my talk page, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:03, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

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From Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:48, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

JSTOR papers with reference to Slotin or Criticality Accidents

1. "'Clean' Nuclear Weapons," The Science News-Letter, Vol. 71, No. 24. (Jun. 15, 1957), pp. 374-375.
2. Book Reviews, Annual Review of Nuclear Science, James G. Beckerley, Review author[s]: P. Morrison, Science, New Series, Vol. 120, No. 3109. (Jul. 30, 1954), pp. 180-181.
3. In the Laboratory, "Carbon 14 Production from Ammonium Nitrate Solution in the Chain-Reacting Pile," L. D. Norris; Arthur H. Snell, Science, New Series, Vol. 105, No. 2723. (Mar. 7, 1947), pp. 265-267.
4. "The Scientist in Contemporary Fiction," Bentley Glass, The Scientific Monthly, Vol. 85, No. 6. (Dec., 1957), pp. 288-293.
5. "Literature, Science, and the Manpower Crisis," Joseph Gallant, Science, New Series, Vol. 125, No. 3252. (Apr. 26, 1957), pp. 787-791.
6. News and Notes, Science, New Series, Vol. 107, No. 2776. (Mar. 12, 1948), pp. 264-268. (Announcement of the first Louis Slotin Memorial Lecture.)
7. "Evaluations of Radiation Effects on Man: Radiation Accidents and Their Management," by Gould A. Andrews, Radiation Research Supplement, Vol. 7, Space Radiation Biology. Proceedings of a Workshop Conference on Space Radiation Biology Sponsored by the Office of Advanced Research of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration of the United States of America, held at the University of California, Berkeley, September 7-10, 1965. (1967), pp. 390-397.
8. "Somatic Chromosome Aberrations Induced by Human Whole-Body Irradiation: The "Recuplex" Criticality Accident," by M. A. Bender; P. C. Gooch, Radiation Research, Vol. 29, No. 4. (Dec., 1966), pp. 568-582.
9. "Chromosomal Aberrations in Persons Accidentally Irradiated in Vinc̆a 19 Years Ago," B. Pendić; Nada Barjaktarović; Vitana Kostić, Radiation Research, Vol. 81, No. 3. (Mar., 1980), pp. 478-482.
10. "Chromosomal Aberrations in a Radiation Accident: Dosimetric and Hematological Aspects," G. J. Schneider; B. Choné; T. Blönnigen, Radiation Research, Vol. 40, No. 3. (Dec., 1969), pp. 613-617.
11. "Estimation of Whole-Body Doses by Means of Chromosome Aberrations Observed in Survivors of the Hiroshima A-Bomb," M. L. Randolph; J. G. Brewen, Radiation Research, Vol. 82, No. 2. (May, 1980), pp. 393-407. (many more papers on chromosomal damage).
12. "Early Functional Hemodynamic Impairment in Baboons after 1000 R or Less of Gamma Radiation as Revealed by Hemorrhagic Stress," J. H. Myers; L. H. Blackwell; R. R. Overman, Radiation Research, Vol. 52, No. 3. (Dec., 1972), pp. 564-578.

Papers/books in Google Scholar

1. Jews in Manitoba: A Social History by A. A. Chiel, University of Toronto Press.
2. (Radiobiology paper) "THE UTILIZATION OF CARBON DIOXIDE IN THE SYNTHESIS OF α-KETOGLUTARIC ACID," EA Evans, L Slotin - Journal of Biological Chemistry, 1940 - ASBMB, Chicago E. A. EVANS, JR. LOUIS SLOTIN Received for publication, September 17, 1940 6 Evans, E. A., Jr., Biochem. J., 34,829 (1940).
3. (Radiobiology paper) "CARBON DIOXIDE UTILIZATION BY PIGEON LIVER," EA Evans, L Slotin - Journal of Biological Chemistry, 141 (2): 439. (1941)
4. (Radiobiology) "THE ROLE OF CARBON DIOXIDE IN THE SYNTHESIS OF UREA IN RAT LIVER SLICES," Journal of Biological Chemistry, 136 (3): 805. (1940)
5. (Radiobiology paper) "CARBON DIOXIDE ASSIMILATION IN CELL-FREE LIVER EXTRACTS," - EA Evans, L Slotin, B Vennesland - Journal of Biological Chemistry, 143 (2): 565. (1942)
6. (Radiobiology paper) "THE MECHANISM OF CARBON DIOXIDE FIXATION IN CELL-FREE EXTRACTS OF PIGEON LIVER," EA Evans, B Vennesland, L Slotin - Journal of Biological Chemistry, (1943)
7. (Patent)"Method of Dissolving Uranium Metal", Louis A. Slotin, US Patent Office
8. (Early Manitoba Paper) "The Preparation of Racemic Tartaric Acid," AN Campbell, L Slotin, SA Johnston - Journal of the American Chemical Society, volume 55, p. 2604. (1933)
9. (Early Manitoba Paper), "The Systems (a) Ammonium d-Tartrate—Lithium d-Tartrate—Water, and (b) Ammonium Lithium d-Tartrate" AN Campbell, L Slotin - Journal of the American Chemical Society, p. 3961, 1933
10. (Patent file by Wigner et al which refers to a co-pending patent by Slotin et al (Slotin not first author)). Fluid Moderated Reactor
11. (Refers to the work of Slotin) Krebs, Hans A., "The discovery of carbon dioxide fixation in mammalian tissues," Journal Molecular and Cellular Biochemistry, Springer Netherlands, Volume 5, Numbers 1-2 / November, 1974, Pages, 79-94.
12. History of the Oak Ridge Critical Experiments Program
13. A History of Critical Experiments at the Pajarito Site, Los Alamos National Laboratory.
14. Nuclear Criticality Safety: A Two-Day Training Course, offered at the Los Alamos National Laboratory.
15. Vennesland, Brigit, Recollections and Small Confessions, Annual Review of Plant Physiology Vol. 32: 1-21 (Volume publication date June 1981) Vennesland was both a student and instructor in biochemistry around the same time Slotin was there. She was a research assistant to E. A. Evans (collaborator of Slotin). She mentions Slotin, but more importantly, describes the University of Chicago during that time.
16. Remembering the Manhattan Project: Perspectives on the making of the Atomic Bomb and its legacy, Cynthia Kelley, 2004.
17. Dosimetry at the Los Alamos Critical Experiments Facility: Past, Present, and Future by Richard E. Malenfant (2 MB pdf file) From intro: "The first critical experiments at the Los Alamos Critical Experiments Facility (LACEF), were conducted in 1945. The first documented application of the facility to dosimetry followed the fatal accident of 21 May 1946. Although the first fatality resulted from an accident on 21 August 1945, no serious attempt could be made to characterize the dose (which was estimated at 800 rep °) because only one individual was involved, and he was working alone. The 21 May 1946 accident involved eight participants. Following the accident, Louis Slotin (the only fatality) requested that all participants be surveyed in an attempt to establish at least the relative exposures. This was done in a crude way by evaluating the activation of silver coins, gold and silver fillings in the teeth, and blood sodium activation. Stratton 3,4reports estimated doses of 900, 185, 116, 93, 41, 26, 18, and 18 rep. The attempt to understand and evaluate biological radiation effects is extremely difficult and very sensitive...."
18. "Criticality: The fine line of control" by Hugh Paxton, Los Alamos Science, Winter 1983.

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SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:03, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the move, SandyGeorgia. I will start working on these new references soon. Nishkid64 (talk) 23:57, 20 December 2007 (UTC)