Wikipedia talk:Only make links that are relevant to the context

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Revert the nutshell

So what part of Bold, Revert, Discuss is unclear here? This page started without a nutshell. Someone added it. That edit was reverted. Some time later, it was readded. It was reverted again with an explicit request to discuss on Talk before readding it. It was promptly added yet again, still without any discussion or explanation.

Nutshells in general are more harmful than helpful for our readers. They give the false impression to casual readers that by reading only the nutshell, they understand all the nuance and subtlety that the rest of the page explains. They have created dangerous false impressions among our new users and pointless confusion and wiki-lawyering.

Nutshells are also completely and utterly redundant to either a) a well-written, active-voice page title and/or b) a well-written and succinct introductory paragraph. This page has both. There may be marginal value to a nutshell on other pages which have ambiguous titles or poorly written opening sections but there is zero value to the nutshell on this particular page.

Other than satisfying some slavish desire for a false sense of consistency, what value is there in a nutshell on this specific page? Rossami (talk) 04:06, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

For the record, I did check for a discussion thread on the talk page, and found none, before adding an attempted compromise nutshell. When requesting discussion, you should lead by example. The nutshell argument you make is not new, and the widespread use of nutshells suggests that it is not a widely held consensus. I think your supporting argument that the nutshell gives the impression that it conveys the full substance of the policy or guideline is completely baseless, as this would be an absurd conclusion for a new user to draw. The reason for nutshells is to help new users digest WP policy. They allow new users to take a small taste of a new dish first, before attempting to devour the whole portion. They also assist in navigation, allowing users to quickly see if this is the policy they are looking for. Several editors do object to them as being unnecessary, or clutter, but if they are kept very brief, and do not grow out of control, I think it is a reasonable compromise to keep them. Dhaluza (talk) 10:32, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I for one don't like the "nutshell style" opening that is not actually in a nutshell -- it looks awkward. (By "nutshell style", I mean the bolded repetition of the article's title followed by two summarizing bullet points.) If the opening came in the form of prose, it would be smoother; alternatively, encapsulating it in a nutshell template would, I feel, improve its formatting and make its "short overview" qualities more pronounced.--Father Goose (talk) 05:32, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I think repetition of the title in the nutshell is redundant. It should be repeated in the opening paragraph as is standard practice, and it already appears at the top of the page. Dhaluza (talk) 10:35, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, agreed, and it's just as bad when the repetition occurs in a {{nutshell}}-less nutshell at the top of the page. I'm fine with this layout.--Father Goose (talk) 19:48, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I added the {{nutshell}} template for precisely the reasons that Father Goose says. You'll notice that the only difference between the version with and the version without the template is that the nutshell text is placed in the nutshell template. And that is exactly what that piece of text is: it's WP:CONTEXT in a nutshell. That is, it explains the fundamental point and goal of the policy/guideline. I don't think we can or should expect all of our new editors to go and read the complete text of all of our policies and guidelines before helping improve the encyclopedia. The commonsense approach to editing Wikipedia is to be bold, do what seems necessary, and then review the policies and guidelines in detail as issues come up. Having the nutshell template at the top gives you the point of the guideline without making you digest 25K of rule if you don't need to.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 06:57, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

It's no big deal, but yes, I was a little disappointed to see the nutshell go. What's wrong with it? Tony (talk) 07:19, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Linking dates for autoformatting

I'm confused by the recent changes. Are we supposed to stop linking dates for autoformatting or not? And why can't this page just say yes or no in clear unambiguous language? Dhaluza (talk) 01:07, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

The Manual of Style now says "stop" except in rare cases. I'm still working through the history of the recent discussions but if that decision sticks over at the MoS page, this page should be updated to follow the new rule. Rossami (talk) 02:24, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Consensus at MOSNUM, after a long, long debate, has been that "Autoformatting should not generally be used unless there is a good reason to do so." So yes, the answer is that we should all stop linking dates. Tony (talk) 02:39, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Dhaluza has a point, though. The section as currently worded is unnecessarily long, verbose and confusing. I'm not sure of how exactly to reword it at the moment, but it could definitely be made more concise.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 15:52, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Just to be clear though, the changes to this page discouraging dates have been added since that argument there. -LlywelynII (talk) 22:21, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

What generally should not be linked

The current guidance says to not link well-known geographical locations, and examples are given of major countries and cities. I'd like this guidance to be extended. There is rarely any benefit to readers in linking widely familiar concepts such as:

• the names of the continents
• the major oceans and seas (Atlantic, Pacific, Mediterranean, Caribbean, ...)
• major astronomical objects (Earth, Moon, Sun, ...)
• large-scale historical events (World War I, World War II, Industrial Revolution, Middle Ages, ...)
• common professions (actor, singer, musician, writer, author, scientist, artist, physician/doctor, politician, ...)
• names of languages [a link to these is almost never beneficial unless specifically discussing the language itself]
• major religions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism, ...)
• nationalities related to well-known countries (American, British, French, Russian, Japanese, Chinese, Spanish, Italian, ...)
• names of colours (red, white, blue, green, yellow, white, black, orange, brown, gray/grey, ...)
• common human events (birth, death, marriage, divorce, ...)
• major parts of the body (head, hair, eye, nose, mouth, ear, chin, neck, arm, leg, finger, toe, ...)

Clearly there will always be times when it is appropriate make these links, and there can be debate about exactly which items should be considered familiar enough not to need linking. I think the examples I've given are a minimum set that practically everyone could agree on. Any comments? Colonies Chris (talk) 15:47, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Is there any simple test that can be applied? We use the phrase 'plain english'. Perhaps we should also mention that Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Lightmouse (talk) 16:14, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh please yes, at long last. I was getting a head of steam up to add the languages, but this wider approach is much better. Do people really link body parts and common events? I'd have thought these might not need explicit mention, but could be covered by the "dictionary words" category. Tony (talk) 16:18, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

• I think that some of the proposed examples are overly specific. I can think of many articles where a link to Europe would be entirely appropriate - and some examples where it would be pretty pointless. A blanket rule would seem to create more room for confusion and dissent than the policy already has. I would also worry about accusations of inconsistency and bias if we decided that, for example, Christianity is a major religion that doesn't get linked but Baalism does. Or that "John Smith is an Estonian chiropractor" should be inherently different in its presentation from "Jane Smith is a US doctor". Again, I agree with the principle but see too many opportunities for exception and counter-example to see much potential for a blanket rule. Those excessive links can be quietly removed by any editor already. We don't need to expand the rule before you start. Rossami (talk) 16:22, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
  • The dilution of our high-value links by an encroaching "sea of blue" has been a problem on WP for some time. We've moved away from the original scattergun "link anything you please" approach to the notion of disciplined linking, or smart linking, in which a little care is expected in prioritising what and what not to link. The boundary between these will often vary depending on context and editor; whether to link "France" (hardly ever), "Paris" (usually not), "Bordeaux" (probably—depends), or "Gironde" (almost certainly) does require, inter alia, an assessment of how well-known these items are likely to be to the readers of the article and English-speakers in general. It's what you might call a "wiki-skill", which we should proudly encourage all WPians to take seriously as a rather special, if not unique, part of this encyclopedia.
    And no, I think the entrenched habit of link-as-you-please does need to be addressed through explicit guidance, such as the list above. However, yes, you're right in that the advice should not be cast as a straightjacket, but worded in such a way that editors can develop and use such skill in context. This is easy enough to do, through the use of the old warhorses "generally", and "unless there is a good reason to do so". That leaves the final decision in the hands of editors, but provides global advice to trigger in editors' minds where a link should be justified by good reason. Having said that, can you provide an example of where a link to "Europe" might significantly increase readers' understanding (as required by MoS main)? Tony (talk) 16:59, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
    • For an off-the-cuff example, the link to "Europe" in continent is clearly appropriate since it helps to draw the distinction between Continental Europe the contiguous landmass , Europe the larger landmass including the UK, Iceland and Turkey and Europe the political entity, to name a few. I'm sure I could find many more examples.
      I agree with the general premise that we should be more deliberate in deciding which links to create. I'm merely skeptical that expanding the examples will clarify the decision any more than what's already on the page. There are too many exceptions to any given rule. Worse, the more detail you add, the more likely new readers are to say "it's not on the list, therefore I should ..." rather than to think and apply the basic principle. It's a classic problem of instruction creep. As you say, deciding which links are appropriate in a particular context is a skill that must be learned.
      (Interestingly, though, the confusion seems to have gotten a bit worse since the removal of this example which had been in the introduction practically since the earliest days of the page. Perhaps that should be added back.) Rossami (talk) 18:26, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
      • Rossami, you have a point about the danger of creating an "it's not on the list, therefore I should link it" mindset. Perhaps it would be better cast as a more general statement, along the lines of

"You should not normally link: the names of geographical locations (continents, oceans, countries, cities), and related nationalities, that are likely to be well-known to English-speakers; major astronomical objects; large-scale historical events such as the two world wars; common professions; names of languages; major religions; and other items that are likely to be familiar to English speakers."

That gives strong guidance but leaves room for individual judgment.

And yes, Tony, I'm afraid people really do link to parts of the body (often in fan articles)

"(insert heartthrob name here) has blue eyes and black hair"

and as for common human events, there's a bit of boilerplate generated text you find in hundreds of articles about US towns:

“ There were 4,235 households out of which 28.8% had children under the age of 18 living with them, 43.5% were married couples living together, 11.2% had a female householder with no husband present, and 41.7% were non-families. 35.4% of all households were made up of individuals and 13.6% had someone living alone who was 65 years of age or older. The average household size was 2.26 and the average family size was 2.93. ”

Pick any common word such as daughter and you'll find hundreds of links, very few of them necessary or worthwhile. Also, I could have mentioned days of the week and month names but they're covered elsewhere. Colonies Chris (talk) 07:37, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is quite disturbing when you go to a page and look at 'What links here'. The list at Most linked-to pages contains many 'plain english' terms and that does not even measure repeated links in a page. A few of us keep doing purges on days of the week but they keep coming back. Lightmouse (talk) 21:28, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Days of the week are a very good example of things that should not be linked in most contexts. But the articles on the days of the week should link to at least the day before and after, and articles on specific days of the week, like Good Friday and Friday the 13th should link to the generic day and vice versa. So again, it's context that's important, not the specific item. Dhaluza (talk) 11:59, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Rossami, long ago, I removed this from the lead for two reasons: "It is not always an easy call. Linking to the number three from triangle may be helpful, while linking to the number six from Six O'Clock News would not be." because (1) "three" in that context is a good example of what not to link, and (2) the distinction between the appropriateness of the three and of the six is quite unclear. Tony (talk) 01:55, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

To the extent that it makes sense to have an encyclopedia article on a common number like three at all, there are few pages where it would make more sense to link to that page than from triangle - a geometric shape that is defined by its three-ness. If "triangle" doesn't qualify for a link to "3" in your view, I can't imagine what article would. (And if no page should link to the number, why would we have an article on an orphaned topic?) The Six O'clock news, on the other hand, has no greater connection to the number six than the chance of a corporate scheduling decision. A link there is clearly inappropriate.
Obviously, I didn't disagree with your decision enough to revert that removal at the time. But in hindsight, it seems to be the sort of clarification that you're now advocating - an thought-provoking example of an inherently gray decision about when a link is likely to be helpful and when it is not. Rossami (talk) 02:22, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Tony, unfortunately this is one of the few times I have to disagree with you. I think Rossami makes a good point here. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 03:30, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Rossami, except on the suggestion that we cannot have orphaned articles. We link to three from triangle because the former article referrs to the latter subject, so it covers that subject in a different context, providing some value add. But if we changed the linking policy so that we didn't link to articles like "three" for whatever reason, making it an orphan, that does not mean we should not have an article if it stands on its own. Dhaluza (talk) 03:46, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't disagree with the general ideas behind the list given here, but I do not think putting a list in this guideline is a good idea. It will just fire up misguided crusaders who will go off obliterating every link to items on the list without much thought. The general principle that the link should add value is enough. If the vast majority of readers are going to have sufficient familiarity with the linked word, then there is no need for a link. But if there is additional insight on the topic at hand to be gained from the linked text, then the link is worthwile, even if most users will not opt to follow it. I think this list can be helpful in indentifying the general principles that can be used to make this giudeline more descriptive, but I would object to making it more prescriptive by including a list like this. Dhaluza (talk) 02:19, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Don't link to anything you learned about in elementary school

We could sum up this list by simply saying: "Don't link to anything you learned about in elementary school," and that would about cover it. But then, on further consideration, we do want to write to the widest audience possible. So what about readers who are in elementary school, and have not learned about all these topics yet? I'm not saying we should link to everything to bring it down to a first grade level, but where should we draw the line?

The other issue comes with geography, which is a challenge to many. You might think it is not necessary to link to China, but 30% of college age Americans can't find it on a map, and most have misconceptions about it. So, again, where to draw the line?

Finally, we need to keep in mind that many readers will not be native English speakers. The en.wikipedia contains many more articles than the other language versions, so many readers will be coming here for info not avialable in their native language. We cannot make assumptions about their education or background either. So, to someone in the third world, Industrial Revolution may be a "foreign" concept.

-- Dhaluza (talk) 02:54, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

If someone can't find China on a map, they can so easily type c h i n a into the search box—four quick keystrokes more than clicking on a link that no one else wants and that dilutes high-value links. And the article on China doesn't immediately locate it in terms that such a person would understand, anyway; have a look. Mainland China at least provides a localised map towards the top, but I wonder whether someone who doesn't know where China is wouldn't need to see it on a much larger world map.

Stooping quite so low just to save such people a few keystrokes, and to save non-native speakers looking up a dictionary on their computer or by their side—is not a reasonable balance, given that every link is a little more dilution and colour-clutter for everyone. You have to draw the line somewhere; otherwise, why not link just about every word as the all-the-web lunies urge? Then the black words could stand out: great. WP is not a kindergarten or a learn-English facility; it's a serious repository of knowledge for the everyday anglophone. Nor is it here to try to make up for the xenophobia of a particular education system at the expense of the general reader. Tony (talk) 04:12, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

It sounds like you are suggesting that the length of the link should be a factor, which is a new concept. Does this mean that we might not link to "China" but that we might link to "United States" because it needs more typing? Or are you saying that we don't need links at all, because you can type any term in the search box (as long as it's not a piped link)? Linking every word is an extreme that has been rejected. But color clutter should not be the issue either. The issue is that the reader should not be disappointed when following a link to a blind alley in the context of the article subject. A link is only a problem if it is of no help to virtually everyone. WP is not for learning English per se, but it is for learning about things in English, even if that is not your native language. So I strongly disagree that we should only be concerned with anglophones. Dhaluza (talk) 04:38, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

PS And how on earth will a diversion to the article on three increase a reader's understanding of "triangle". It opens with this:

3 (three) is a number, numeral, and glyph. It is the natural number following 2 and preceding 4."

Hmmm, that's useful. But wait, there's more; read on:

Three is the first odd prime number, and the second smallest prime. It is both the first Fermat prime (2²ⁿ + 1) and the first Mersenne prime (2² − 1), as well as the first lucky prime. However, it's the second Sophie Germain prime, the second Mersenne prime exponent, the second factorial prime (2! + 1), the second Lucas prime, the second Stern prime.

Three is the first unique prime due to the properties of its reciprocal.

Three is the aliquot sum of one number, the square number 4 and is the base of the 3-aliquot tree.

Three is the third Heegner number.

Three is the second triangular number and it is the only prime triangular number. Three is the only prime which is one less than a perfect square. Any other number which is n² − 1 for some integer n is not prime, since it is (n − 1)(n + 1). This is true for 3 as well, but in its case one of the factors is 1.

That's really helpful to someone who's reading the article on "triangle". If anything in Three is relevant to the understanding of a triangle, it should be included directly in the article on "triangle", rather than remain an isolated bit of information for the poor reader to try to hunt down in such an general, unfocused article as "Three"; by the way, the links in the opening of "three" do appear to be high-value, by contrast. It is rare to find such a high density of valuable links.

Let's get rid of this addiction to diversionary browsing that WP has got itself into. It ends up damaging our product through dilution and reducing focus. Anyone can divert when and where they wish by using the search box. It is not up to us to provide a magic carpet to anywhere at the general expense of the appearance and readability of the text, and the highlighting of genuinely high-value links. Tony (talk) 04:25, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

It may be relevant to duplicate info in two articles, or only keep it in one or the other. But this is likely to be handled on a case-by-case basis, and not always consistently or constantly. It is not necessarily diversionary browsing (approaching clicking on the "random article" link for example). The concept of three and triangle are obviously directlty related, and each discusses the other in a different context. So it is not unreasonable for the two articles to link to each other in some way. Even if they do not have embedded links in the text, a link from the "see also" section would be in order. Dhaluza (talk) 04:45, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

No, if someone doesn't know where the United States is, or what it is, they will need to type the 13 characters into the search box, sorry, rather than force the term to be bright-blue on its hundreds of thousands of occurrences in WP. Typing into a search box shouldn't be hard for anyone who uses a computer. You haven't answered my query that China doesn't help someone to locate it on a world map, nor how Three helps a reader to understand the topic of "triangle", rather than confuses them. I do not find your case about this at all convincing. Nor do I expect the Chinese WP to link lots of common words in Mandarin just because I might be learning the language. Tony (talk) 04:53, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

If link color is truly a problem, then this should be correctable by user preference settings, so that should not be the issue. Neither should length of link, whether 5, 13, or whatever number of characters. The only issue of substance is diverting readers to articles that "are not relevant to the context" as the page name suggests. As for China, if that article does not at present answer a question, then that is a deficency in the article that should be corrected over time. We would still link to the article that we would expect to answer the question, just as we red-link to articles that should exist to describe a related topic. Dhaluza (talk) 05:08, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

There are more casual readers (one time IPs) who visit WP than there are registered users. They can't change their preferences. That's why all my settings are default. I can see what they see. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 05:41, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree, my point was that if users are sensitive to link color because of visual acuity, or personal preference, that should be handled by those users. We should not discard links that would help some people, because they might offend others who could take steps to mitigate the issue on their own. For example, with technically demanding material we tend to have a greater link density. We should not artificially reduce the linking in this case because of an amorphous, subjective standard based on beauty in the eye of the beholder. We should make links whenever a reasonable argument can be made that they "are relevant to the context," regardless of how it might look. We can allow that the visual appearance is in tension with WP:BTW, so links should be justifiable on some level, but we should not raise the bar just to make articles look pretty. Dhaluza (talk) 10:57, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

There may be some validity to an argument that WP:BTW is best served by avoiding overlinking so reverse searches using the "what links here" function remains useful at some level. So in this case, we might avoid linking to United States not because "everybody knows it" or "anyone can type it" but because someone doing a reverse search will be deluged with hits, just like someone doing a web search for information about an obscure meaning of a word that also has a common meaning. So we may avoid linking to "United States" in most contexts that only refer to it in passing and dont contain any information relative to that topic. But we would link to it in each of the articles about the 50 states, because they are directlty related, and someone browsing in a geopolitical context would be served by this linking. This is why we need to be careful about overly general guidance on specific topics, without providing more nuance. Dhaluza (talk) 11:07, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

←I very much like Dhaluza's idea that "Three" belongs in the "See also" section at the bottom. This is worth building into the guideline in generic terms. Tony (talk) 11:25, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

My point was that the cross-links at least belong in the "see also", since the concepts are related. Whether to link it in the body is an editorial decision based on context, not some generic rule. Dhaluza (talk) 11:38, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

---

This thread kind of veered off from the discussion I was trying to start in this sub-thread. What the main thread seemed to be suggesting is that we should assume common sense. While that makes some sense on some level, we need to be careful how far to take it. Obviously on the English language Wikipedia, we need to assume the reader has some level of familiarity with the English language, otherwise we would need to link every term. Since we have consensus that that is not what we want to do, we have decided not to link common words. The question becomes where to draw the line on what is common. I strongly disagree with the idea that we should assume readers are native speakers or fluent in English. The definition of fluency, is, well, fluid. You could argue that most anglophones are not really fluent in English because they could not read or write a paper that would be accepted at the college level (since most people don't go to college). I think most editors would agree that assuming only a first-grade reading level would be absurd, just as assuming that readers have a college degree is absurd for the majority of general topics (it might be appropriate, or even necessary, for very deep technical discussions though). Where to draw the line between these two extremes is the issue.

I think we should go back to basics, and stick to the fram of "only make links that are relevant to the context." So in context, an article on a simple topic might make links to topics that would not be linked in a more complex topic. One of the goals of WP is to make the material accessible to as many readers as practicable. Linking terms is a way to do this, and it should not be unnecessarily discouraged. For example, when using a technical term, you generally need to assume the reader will not be familiar with it. How to handle this has to be decided on a case-by-case basis. If you are going to use it multiple times, you will want to define it on the first occurrance. But it is not necessary to fully define it--a link will allow readers to get a more in-depth definition and context on the term, while readers already familiar with it can skip the link. Terms that are only used once might just be put in context with a partial definition or even a suggestive adjective. It may even be appropriate to assume the term is familiar to most readers interested in the subject, and only link it for the few who might not.

I think the point is that that we not lose sight of the context by creating overly general lists that will be taken out of context. And we need to be careful of making bright line distinctions like assuming a particular grade level education that will not be appropriate in all contexts. I think compiling lists of overlinked terms is useful to foster discussion about why the terms are overlinked, and what nuance we should add to this guideline to reduce it. But I don't think we should take the shortcut of including the lists in the guideline as guidance in an of themselves. Dhaluza (talk) 11:36, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Where have we got to in the discussion?

There is clear consensus that there is overlinking and that it should be discouraged somehow, and no very strong disagreement with the outline list I suggested of things that should not normally be linked, but there is disagreement over the wisdom of actually specifying that list in a guideline, and there is disagreement over whether an overlinking guideline can be written that could apply to all contexts, covering articles on simple subjects and on complex technical topics. So I have two proposals; first, to change the guidelne to strengthen it but to remain general (i.e. no lists), and to allow individual judgment and a measure of adaptation depending on the nature of the article itself:

"You should not normally link: the names of geographical locations (continents, oceans, countries, cities), and related nationalities, that are likely to be well-known to readers of the article; major astronomical objects; large-scale historical events such as the two world wars; common professions; names of languages; major religions; and other items that are likely to be familiar to most readers of the article."

and second, a proposed alternative example of when to link and when not to link:

YES - Finnish and Estonian are closely related languages of the Finno-Ugric group.

NO - Finnish became an official language of the European Union in 1995 and its close relation, Estonian, in 2004. Colonies Chris (talk) 12:15, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I think I prefer the first option, Chris. Examples are so reliant on larger context. "Dictionary"-type words, however they can be referred to, need to feature in the list. Tony (talk) 15:20, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I prefer the more balanced approach. Although overlinking may be a greater problem now, making a list of words not to link will just encourage people to remove all links to that term, regardless of context. I can't think of any term that should not be linked in some context. As pointed out above, that would create an orphan by definition, which is not desirable. So using the example of days of the week from above, we could say:

• Do link Friday from the directly related articles Thursday, Friday the 13th, and days of the week.
• Don't link to Friday as in "Friday, January 1, 1999" from the unrelated article Bowl Championship Series.

-- Dhaluza (talk) 22:42, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

←That is why the words "normally" and "such as" are already used in the relevant wording, and presumably will be retained. I see no invitation to go on a linking spree of any set of items that is not covered; the style guides already make it clear that scattergun linking is unacceptable. No one has ever used that argument, at FAC or elsewhere, in my experience. Tony (talk) 04:10, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I've been a professional Web master and "knowledge engineer" for large sites with millions of visitors per year. Something to factor into the mix is the very low "click through" to other articles using links. Getting 10% of viewers to "click through" is an accomplishment. (At least for technical articles. The division of Wiki subjects into many small articles, and reader disposition to browse mitigate that for Wiki. However, the basic point stands.) Increasing the number of links, perhaps counterintuitively, does not greatly add to the amount of "click through", and after a dozen or so links, tends not to add any traffic at all. This is true even where an article's author makes great effort to direct readers to a link. (E.g, with bolding, warnings, caution symbols, etc.) It's preferable to have a few links in an article to subjects that are crucial to the topic, whose importance the readers may not be likely to guess on their own. Alpha Ralpha Boulevard (talk) 02:12, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

A very useful comment, Alpha Ralpha Boulevard. Thank you. You have expressed what I think but I have never quite been able to put it as clearly. Perhaps something like that should be noted in the guideline. Lightmouse (talk) 09:16, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Indeed; I intend to insert a sentence to that effect: "It is preferable to have a few links in an article to subjects that are crucial to the topic than many links in the hope that their quantity will encourage the reader to click on an important one." Tony (talk) 09:52, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

An alternate view

I think that what is getting lost in this discussion is that there is really no way to know how many readers are going to be familiar with various terms in various articles. Obviously overlinking is a problem, but I do not think that it is such an overwhelming problem that we need to draconianly restrict the number of links to just "a few ... that are crucial to the topic". If you look at today's featured article, Emmy Noether, you'll find that it is quite liberally sprinkled with links, but not to the point of being aesthetically overwhelming. Maybe I'm misinterpreting the words of those above, but it seems like this article, which has been voted as one of Wikipedia's best articles, would have too many links for some editors here. For myself, I find it aesthetically displeasing to see a whole paragraph or section with no wikilinks at all, because it seems to go against the whole point of what having a wiki-encyclopedia is all about. Now, obviously, as the current guideline makes clear, there are good reasons why you will get some paragraphs like that, and I'm not arguing against that. But I think we are losing sight of the fact that we are trying to make this encyclopedia accessible and useful to the widest possible audience. The point of wikilinks is NOT to increase "click-through", it simply makes it that much easier to explore the endless knowledge-base that Wikipedia has become. Yes, I can type the word into the search box, but having the wikilink there makes it a lot easier for me to click through and browse something I don't know about. And as long as having that wikilink doesn't cross the line into turning the article into a sea of blue, then it should be left. I should emphasize again that I am not encouraging indiscriminate linking, just a more common-sense, AGF approach to the issue. I think the current guideline does a perfectly good job of discouraging overlinking, and I don't see a need to make it even stricter. I think we are all turned off by seeing a sea of blue in an article, but I am equally turned off by dead-end articles. There is a good reason we have WP:Build the web.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 16:13, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

The TFA opening is a rare example in which the density of linking is high, but just about every link is potentially useful to most readers; this can occur at the start of an article that is in a highly technical subject. The same is true of three, as discussed above. These articles are not good examples to use to justify high-density linking in general. And I have to disagree that there's "good reason" for that BTW page. It's a bizarre vestige of the scattergun linking we used to have. Tony (talk) 16:40, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I wasn't referring to the intro of the featured article, but the body, because I know that intros are always going to be link-heavier than the rest of the article. I would also like to point out that you said the "scattergun linking we used to have". If the scattergun linking isn't such a big problem anymore, why are we looking for ways to restrict it even further?--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 17:25, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I believe dates of birth and death should be linked when they refer to the subject of the article. Deb (talk) 17:43, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Can you please explain the benefit of such linking, possibly with an example or two? Tony (talk) 15:56, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I don't see the point of that either. I think that IS an example of overlinking. But I think there are plenty of examples in the discussion above that it wouldn't hurt to keep in an article, as long as the article isn't overlinked.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 16:21, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I think my main point is this: Links which may be less relevant to the context should be removed if there are already a sufficiency of links in the article. However, if there aren't that many links in the article, then having links of lesser relevance detracts nothing, and contributes to strengthening the interlocking web of linked articles. Cheers, --Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 16:21, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

recent insertion: linked units in infoboxes

User:Docu has just inserted a guideline that units in infoboxes may be linked and that such links should not be removed by bots. Can he please present a case for this change here? Why are units in infoboxes different from those in the main text? Tony (talk) 10:17, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

There was a lengthy discussion on this on the linked talk page. Please comment there. -- User:Docu

The wp:overlink script

There's a script gathering popularity that is being run through articles to remove a formulaic idea as to what constitutes overlinked terms. Fine, but it's a bit daft I'm afraid. For example, it removes links to England. Why? Someone just ran this through the United Kingdom article and thinks that England shouldn't be linked in that page! I suggest a rethink here - it's not wise to have this gain more popularity without understanding when and where it is appropriate. --Jza84 |  Talk  14:39, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Why should it be linked? Shouldn't well known geographical locations unlikely to be confused with other locations generally not be linked? I don't think there is misunderstanding of the appropriateness on my part. --Elliskev 14:44, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Jza, please explain how diverting to the article on England will significantly add to the reader's understanding of the topic at hand. I suggest that information on England that bears directly on the UK be included in the UK article (it probably already is). As a matter of interest, is there not a more focused section that could be linked to, rather than the entire, summary-style article on England? Tony (talk) 15:55, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Are you actually arguing that England shouldn't be linked to from United Kingdom? How is that not "relevant to the context"? I think we're getting away from the point of this guideline. Should we change the name of this guideline to WP:Link as little as possible? The problem with making a blanket rule like "well-known geographic locations shouldn't be linked" is that there ARE cases where they should be linked.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 03:13, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I think you're right, in this case. Tony (talk) 04:27, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't disagree that there is a legitimate argument to keep England linked. I believe there should be a way to get from the UK to England. I figured that there was no need for the inline link, since there is a link to every political subdivision in the British Isles template at the bottom of the article. That article is very, very blue. --Elliskev 17:06, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the article is very blue, as it's essentially just one long lead section, summarizing many, many, many sub-articles. It is also a very long article. Thus, linking only one instance of England in the whole article (and that one at the very end) is clearly insufficient. To quote from the current guideline, under the heading What generally should be linked: "A link that had last appeared much earlier in the article may be repeated, but generally not in the the same section." In such a long article as this, it makes perfect sense to have multiple links to the same article, as long as they are spaced far enough apart from each other throughout the article. Cheers,--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 17:53, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Birth dates?

A fellow editor complained on my talk page that the birth dates should be linked, as their corresponding articles show what was going on when the subject was born/died, which helps to create a deeper understanding of the subject through understanding the time period they were alive in. This makes sense. On the other side, I see some editors are massively removing these links and the birth dates are unlinked at Wikipedia:MOSNUM#Dates of birth and death (following this example I removed them also at MOS:BIO but was partially reverted). Any comment? --Eleassar ^{my talk} 18:08, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Birth year and date doesn't really help to show anything usefull - links to decades during formative years, education, etc. would be better (not that I'm suggesting that be done). Also, having only one date formatted according to a user's preferences, but all the others in a different, e.g. middle-endian format, would be jarring. -- Jeandré, 2008-09-08t20:29z

Thanks for the clarification. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 14:30, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I would just like to note that worrying about the date preferences is a very minor matter; the vast majority of our readers don't have an account, and therefore don't have access to that option. In my opinion, we shouldn't even bother having date formatting options at all: editors should see exactly what the readers will see. We're not just making this for ourselves, we're making it for the whole world. (Maybe I'm just too idealistic, though.) Regards,--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 16:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree that birth (and death) dates should stay linked, especially within the lead sentence. They deliver as much context in those instances as any linked date possibly could, in my opinion. After all, something has to link to all of those year and day articles, so it might as well be that. --Bongwarrior (talk) 09:02, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

They are linked under the previous autoformatting system, not to provide "useful" links that "significantly increase readers' understanding" of the topic at hand. Are you thinking of the day-month link or the year-link as being the useful one? Please provide and example of how either could be useful, whether at the top as birth and death dates or anywhere else in an article. Tony (talk) 13:10, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Eleassar already did so above. Linked dates can provide a greater understanding of the time period of the subject at hand, if the reader so desires, by showing what else was happening in the world at the time. The year is probably the more useful one in this case, I guess. I don't disagree that most dates should be unlinked, but birth/death dates should stay as they are. --Bongwarrior (talk) 14:59, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Have you actually looked at the content on those "year" pages? First, there's almost nothing useful about them nor can you find anything useful by following "what links here" because the years themselves are so massively overlinked. Second, you can't learn anything useful about my developmental influences from my birthyear because I wasn't old enough to be influenced by anything encyclopedic yet. Influences in the first year are entirely domestic. In fact, child-development specialists will tell you that influences in the first 5-8 years are almost entirely domestic - or at best, highly localized. Certainly not the kinds of influences that will get coverage in an encyclopedia. If you really want to easily link readers to the influential periods in a person's life, you need to find a way to link to the appropriate decade article covering the ages somewhere between 10 and 30.
Likewise, a link to a death year tells almost nothing about the person's life except in the rare case where the death itself was a cause for notability. I've never yet followed one of those links and learned anything useful. Rossami (talk) 23:43, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

It is a common feature of biographical writing to mention in the same breath as mentioning the birth to the person they are writing about to mention what was happening in that year. This kind of context is useful to many people. It's not just a Wikipedia thing.Dejvid (talk) 09:18, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

What? Run that past us again, please; it seems to make no sense. Tony (talk) 10:37, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I think he's saying that it is a common feature of biographical writing to talk about the events surrounding the subject's birth. Which is true...but not when writing biographical articles for encyclopedias.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 13:11, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Geographic locations

I have reverted the changes made to the "What should commonly be linked" and "What should not commonly be linked" sections in early July, as I can find no consensus for them in discussions here. From what I can tell, the wording was changed at the MoS links guideline, then changed here 21 hours later ("Pasting in bit from MOS (links)"). It appears to represent a reversal of the intent of that part of the guideline, without sufficient discussion or consensus at either page. (Further to this, I have noticed some objection to the idea of unlinking geographic names during the DA script runs.) Regardless of whether or not the guideline is to be changed, I don't think it should have been rewritten prematurely. Thoughts? --Ckatz^chat_spy 08:58, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm reinstating the change for two reasons:

1. The issue was discussed here and the the change has been in place for two months now without complaint
2. The paragraph as it now stands doesn't even hang together properly - it mixes up mention of technical terms with mention of geographic names. Colonies Chris (talk) 12:34, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I endorse this reversion by Colonies Chris. Ckatz, you are on record as having a deep commitment to maximising the density of linking, without regard to the original purpose of wikilinking. Having gone through a long period in which there was little or no discipline in the selection of items to link, WP is now on a trajectory towards what might be called "skilled" or "smart" linking. The key objectives are to minimise the dilution of high-value links and to avoid catering for diversionary browsing at the expense of a sea of blue. Tony (talk) 13:15, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

(To Tony1) Tony1, I'd really appreciate it if you would stick to the topic at hand, and avoid making false claims about my motivations. At no time have I ever gone on "record" as "having a deep commitment to maximising the density of linking, without regard to the original purpose of wikilinking." That is utter rubbish, completely untrue, and (more to the point) serves only to distract others from looking at how the initial changes to the guideline were instituted back in July. --Ckatz^chat_spy 17:11, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

(To Colonies Chris) Chris, I've restored the original text as it is important to discuss this reversal of the guideline first. Tony1 instituted the change, now I'm reverting it so that we can discuss. From what I can see in the talk archives, there was no prior consensus to institute the change. As well, there were several objections raised after the change, as editors started to become aware of what had happened. (It often takes time for the impact of such changes to be recognized by others, as with the recent announcement in the Signpost.) Given that the change is being used by the person who wrote it to justify a mass removal of links, we need to sort this out first. --Ckatz^chat_spy 16:54, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the difference between the new version and old version makes it clear how big a change that was. I think that the old version was a little too strongly in favor of linking geographic place names, since I'm not sure they always need to be linked. I'm not even sure that the guideline needs to mention them specifically, since I don't really see that place names are any different than any other word. We should strike the same balance with place names that we would with any other link: the first instance in the article should be linked, and then not after that, if the article is not too long; or, if the article is too long, then it's ok to link it again much farther down.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 13:33, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

However, the general principle of linking the first occurrence of a term only applies when that term is likely to be unfamiliar to a significant number of readers. In a sentence like "On completing their North American tour, the band set off on a three-month tour of Europe", the links are valueless. And the same applies to many other common words - for example in a typical article opening sentence like "Jennifer Lopez is an American singer and film actress." all four links are valueless. I don't think it's wise to have an explicit list of "things not to link to" in the MoS, but I do think we need to offer some guidance in general terms to discourage valueless overlinking. The current wording actively encourages valueless linking. I proposed earlier a phrasing like this:

You should not normally link: the names of geographical locations (continents, oceans, countries, cities), and related nationalities, that are likely to be well-known to readers of the article; major astronomical objects; large-scale historical events such as the two world wars; common professions; names of languages; major religions; and other items that are likely to be familiar to most readers of the article.

but tony1's wording, although not perfectly to my liking, is much better than the status quo. Colonies Chris (talk) 15:43, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm fine with that wording, Chris. I agree that there were problems in specifying names, and the UK instance above is an unfortunate example. Linking several times to "United States" in every US-related article is clearly overlinking, as it is for almost all instances of well-known country names. Ckatz, you say nothing above to convince people that you don't have such a commitment, and your past statements have strongly indicated this. It is very much the topic at hand, for you're acting again in a way that is not entirely NPOV in your assertion that the text has to be reverted to the version you prefer "so we can discuss". I don't buy that kind of tactic. Unless there are reasonable objections, I believe that Chris's proposed wording should be implemented soon. Tony (talk) 16:00, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Tony, if you have an issue with me, take it up on my talk page rather than here. Otherwise, please stop making groundless accusations which you have not (and cannot) justify. --Ckatz^chat_spy 18:40, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I would cut Chris's suggestion down a little bit, and re-arrange it, to put the central point right up front:

Items likely to be familiar to most readers of the article should only be linked when directly related to the topic. For example, the names of major: geographic features and locations, astronomical objects, historical events, religions, languages, and common professions are unlikely to be useful.

What do you guys think?--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 17:39, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Simpler is better, although we should be careful not to presume what international readers may or may not be familiar with. How about:

"Use discretion when linking items that may be familiar to most readers of the article, such as the names of major geographic features and locations, astronomical objects, historical events, religions, languages, and common professions."

I'd avoid the phrase "unlikely to be useful" as it is very much a value judgement that will differ from person to person. (It is also quite easy for an editor in one region to presume that a global audience will be familiar with his or her nearby feature or location.) Beyond this, we need to make sure that we do not underlink in a mad rush to avoid what some call a "sea of blue". For example, earlier today the article on North America was processed by the date/link script; Asia, Africa, and the other continents were delinked in the lead paragraph. I would think that those were very appropriate links in that context. --Ckatz^chat_spy 18:40, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I see a number of problems with such a caveat:

1. We can't properly give a list of what our readers may be familiar with. We don't know this.
2. Linking is determined by relevance, not familiarity. To resurrect an earlier example, a link to ear is worthless in many contexts, but it may be relevant and useful in an article dealing with human anatomy.
3. To echo User:Ckatz's concern, we don't want to encourage robo-delinking. Judgment is necessary to determine when almost any term should or should not be linked.

I think it would be useful though to weaken the last entry in What generally should be linked to clarify that place names should not reflexively be bluelinked.

Spacepotato (talk) 00:08, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

• This is the slippery slope to the sea of useless blue: "should only be linked when directly related to the topic." Anyone can argue that the United States, and United States|American are directly related to any article with cultural ties to the country. Yet why should it ever be linked for this reason? If a reader has never heard of the US, let them type two characters into the search box (as opposed to one click on a bright-blue splotch in our main text or infobox)—look, like this ... US. In what way is this consistent with the clear directive in the Manual of Style?

It is not useful and can be very distracting to mark all possible words as hyperlinks. Links should add to the user's experience; they should not detract from it by making the article harder to read. A high density of links can draw attention away from the high-value links that you would like your readers to follow up. Redundant links clutter the page and make future maintenance harder.

And now our resident editor who wants just about everything linked, Ckatz, has removed geographical names from MOSLINK, just because he doesn't like it. No discussion of what should replace it, as here. Just launch in and remove. It's becoming an aggressive campaign. Tony (talk) 04:02, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

PS And "Use discretion" replaces a fairly strong guideline with one that is as weak as water. It gives a carte blanche to anyone who wants to litter our articles with useless blue links that no one clicks on, and that degrade the look and readability of the text, and worst of all, dilute our high-value links. This is a huge step backwards, and I don't understand the fervour with which this call to blue-spatter everything is being conducted. Tony (talk) 04:06, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

• The article on North America. Possibly the names of the other continents are justifiably linked here, but why have you put back Italy and retained Earth. Why is "the Americas" linked multiple times? Way down in the article, "continent" is linked: heck, if they don't understand what that word means by then, what's the point in the first place? "Central America" is linked twice in three paragraphs. "South America", "Western Hemisphere" and many others are blue-littered multiple times through the text. Why? It looks appalling. Then, when a relatively high-value link comes along, such as "North American Plate", it's awash. Why do we need the English language to be linked several times? This is the English WP. WHO doesn't know what English is, and why is the article on it of any relevance to this article? Tony (talk) 04:22, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Tony, for the third time I would ask that you desist in your efforts to misrepresent my actions, while completely disregarding your own role in this matter. Since you won't back up your claims about me, can we examine what you have done with these guidelines? Back in early July, having already established your personal dislike for the "sea of blue", you added the text about geographical names to MOSLINK. There was no discussion, just the edit summary "generally no trivial linking of well-known geographical names". Shortly thereafter (roughly 21 hours, to be precise), you rewrote WP:CONTEXT to reflect what you had added to MOSLINK, again without consensus, with the edit summary "Pasting in bit from MOS (links); we should consider merging this one into it". Subsequently, you have been using that same text - authored by you - to justify your script-based delinking of these "common terms".

As for your assertion above that I "removed geographical names from MOSLINK, just because [I don't] like it." Quite the contrary, in fact; I actually commented out your undiscussed addition, with the explanation "commenting out geographical; I see no discussion about it anywhere". I then proceeded to explain my edit on the talk page. How, exactly, does that translate into an "aggressive campaign"? --Ckatz^chat_spy 05:54, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I like Aervanath's wording - it condenses down the key points into a tighter form than my original proposal. Ideally I'd like to find a slight modification, to suggest that all language links are unlikely to be useful, except in language-specifc articles, not just those to major languages. For example in a sentence like "The novels of Agatha Christie jhave been translated into (list of languages)", there's no benefit to linking any of them. Or in a sentence like "The Beatles recorded several of their early hits in German", a link to "German language" wouldn't be helpful, not because German is a fairly well-known language, but because what the reader wants to know is "why?", not about the characteristics of the German language, and that would be the case even if the language had been a much lesser known one.

And I agree with the earlier comment that CKatz's suggestion is just much too weak - it's hardly guidance at all and what we need here is a strong steer. Colonies Chris (talk) 08:27, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I have been watching this debate for while without commenting. It is clear that geographical terms are vastly overlinked and some editors simply link them because they are there. It is reasonable that anyone with sufficient grasp of english to read Wikipedia should know common geographical terms, just as they will know a few animal terms. There is a parallel with 'common units of measurement' and it would be simple just to add a similar bullet

• In general, do not create links to the following.
  • Plain English words, including common units of measurement (particularly if a conversion is provided). [2]
  • Common geographical terms

As with units of measurement, a footnote can list placenames that are 'included but not limited to'.
Lightmouse (talk) 18:02, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

• I love the wording from both Colonies Chris (15:43, 12 September 2008 post) and that of Aervanath (17:39, 12 September 2008 post). The differences between them are subtle, and I encourage the two to collaborate to produce a guideline that is a fusion of the two. As an engineer, I would likely have ended up with more stilted wording (and more of it) to accomplish the exact same thing.

  There should be no simple rule as to what should or should not be linked; it is entirely subject-driven and the above two suggestions capture this concept just fine. There shouldn’t even be a blanket rule that United States should or shouldn’t be linked; a simple article for beginning geography might need such a link. Every experienced editor to Wikipedia should be expected to understand who their intended audience is. If it’s an introductory article, say… Atom, or Introduction to quantum mechanics, links to *familiar* things might be quite appropriate. But a properly written article on an advanced topic, like Planck's law, should not link *common* (for that audience) topics, like “frequency”.

  The whole point of links is to understand who the intended audience is and who you are writing for, and then anticipate what topics such readers might like to further explore. When properly done, links invite exploration and learning. A well-linked article should often elicit a reaction of “oh wow; I didn’t know there’d be a Wikipedia article on that nuance!” When we bombard the reader with too many blue links—or Easter egg hunt links to something unanticipated (and probably disappointing)—we just desensitize the reader to the links and turn our articles into a giant blue turd.

  Greg L (talk) 19:43, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps those exceptions are covered by the wording "are generally/normally not linked". The linking of the names of anglophone countries is so endemic in WP, and robs valuable limelight from high-value links (with rare exceptions), that a strongly worded passage is required. Again, there's no problem in the opt-out "generally". I myself made an error of judgement (see above) in removing the link to "UK" in an article where it was probably appropriate (a rare exception). Tony (talk) 02:17, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

• Yes, “generally” covers it. And I agree, linking United States is usually unnecessary; anyone knows they can type that subject in the search field and go to the relevant article. Just like linking “frequency” in an article on Planck units, we don’t need links to subjects that are drop-dead obvious for the intended readership. But this is Wikipedia, where there is a huge variation in the experience of the volunteer contributing editors that comprises this community. I absolutely guarantee you there are new editors whose only rule for whether or not to link is this: “is there an article on Wikipedia that I can link to?” What I like about both proposals from Colonies Chris and Aervanath, is they use key wording I think is valuable to focus editors on what their mission is when writing articles: “…that may be familiar to most readers of the article…” and “…likely to be well-known to readers of the article…”. Both focus on the important issue: write appropriately and add links that should be of interest to the intended audience. (hell, I kinda like that wording). Maybe even adding example solutions in guidelines would be valuable in this case. Tony, please post below, the wording you advocate or think shouldn’t have been changed. Greg L (talk) 03:18, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

• Greg, "are of interest to" is way too broad. I'm interested in the United States as a topic, but I don't want it linked all over the place, because it's a waste of valuable link-density. Many articles link the word five or six times, either directly or through a pipe from "American". Same for the other major anglophone countries, and many languages. Linking guidelines have be concerned with the utility of the link to the likely reader (i.e., whether it's sufficiently focused on the topic, whether it's worth linking given the assumptions of general knowledge on the part of most readers, whether travelling there will significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and whether the destination of the link contains specific pieces of information that instead should be included in the article at hand.) Tony (talk) 09:05, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

The wording doesn't need to be complicated. It just needs stating. As I said above, a succinct bullet:

• Common geographical terms

below the plain english reference would be as effective as the bullet for common units (which I think has worked well). Lightmouse (talk) 09:34, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

• Tony, well, how about “add germane and topical links that are likely to be of interest to the intended audience”. That, and a few examples ought to cover what you are trying to accomplish. If someone is reading about the Speed of light, and it happens to mention “United States”, it ought not be linked in that article.

Linking geographic names is analogous to technical terms. To people reading the article from some faraway place, the name of that place is probably as unfamiliar as a technical term of art. We provide the link to allow the reader to quickly look up the word to see what it is about--this is important information to readers, and should not be short-changed simply for aesthetics. Note also that there are tools that allow you to review the lead section of an article by hovering on the linked term, which is not possible if you must type the term in a search box, and potentially go to the wrong page, or have to navigate a disambiguation page. Also by linking the term, we build a system of redirects with possibilities, that suggest articles that still need to be created, or help people find what information is currently available (and not available) on WP. I have restored the long-standing provision, with a footnote intended to address concerns with overlinking. Dhaluza (talk) 17:33, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

How about this: "It is generally not necessary to link items that would be familiar to most readers of the article, such as the names of major geographic features and locations, astronomical objects, historical events, religions, languages, and common professions." Thoughts? Comments? Concerns? Abuse?--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 18:14, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

 Done As there seems to be no objection.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 20:01, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Revised, as there is an objection; removing "astronomical objects" as we cannot presume this. Removing "historical events" for the same reason. --Ckatz^chat_spy 09:16, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I've revised it to "Items that may be familiar to most readers of the article", and left it simply at that. One, we cannot presume what readers do and do not know. Two, specifying what was listed before has the unwanted side effect of editors instituting mass removals of links, as seen already. --Ckatz^chat_spy 09:21, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

That's fine with me. I prefer your wording, I'm just not sure it reflects consensus yet. My language was written specifically as a compromise to settle the issue by finding a middle ground.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 10:57, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Your efforts to keep the discussion on track are certainly appreciated. -Ckatz^chat_spy 20:22, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

• No, it's not fine at all. Ckatz, just because you want to cover WP in links doesn't give you the imprimatur to rule over this style guide. And your argument that "we cannot presume what readers do and do not know" rules out your substitute text too. If you want to make major changes, you'll have to get agreement on this talk page. Tony (talk) 11:19, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

  Tony, I must insist that you cease your posting of provocative, unjustified lies about what I do and do not wish to do. You have established a pattern of making accusations and then ignoring requests to support them; it has gone beyond incivility to the point of being disruptive. If you can't justify your desires here without dishonestly misrepresenting people who disagree with you, then don't say anything at all. After all, this began when you rewrote the guidelines to suit your preferences (as documented above), without any effort to achieve consensus. The "major changes" originated from you. --Ckatz^chat_spy 20:19, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

1. User:Ckatz's wording strikes me as superior as linking will always depend on context. Editors must use judgement in determining when terms should or should not be linked. (Actually, the criterion is one of relevance, not familiarity, but this is a step in the right direction.)
2. I see no consensus for the removal of this section. Clearly, whether or not there is consensus for delinking well-known geographical names has no relevance to whether or not little-known geographical names should be linked.

Spacepotato (talk) 21:50, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

What reason is there to avoid linking in quotations?

? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.182.182.120 (talk) 20:25, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

It's subjective. Mainly, the argument is that linking certain phrases in a quotation places emphasis on the linked term and prescribes it a meaning that may not be the precise semantics assumed by the original author. It's also just a style thing. Dcoetzee 05:20, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

It's not subjective at all. One of WP's pillars is to be true to our sources. Linking items in quotations jeapordises this. Linked pages may add nuances that were not intended by the original text. Linked pages can change over time. Tony (talk) 07:15, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

This is an old argument and a perennial topic of discussion. See here and here for some old discussions (there were others as well). Sometimes there is a need to explain words or phrases used in a quote, but this should be done outside the quote, either in a footnote or in the adjacent text to the quote. On very rare occassions, it may be simpler and less messy to just link (eg. glossary definitions of words in poems), but generally if enough care is taken it is possible to both explain the terminology used in the quote, and leave the quote unlinked. Carcharoth (talk) 07:01, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Title change suggestion

Considering that the guidelines here go far beyond simple relevance, I think a title like Wikipedia:Linking guidelines or Wikipedia:When to link would be more appropriate. What do you think? Dcoetzee 06:14, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

In what way do you think they go beyond simple relevance? For example?--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 18:19, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

It discusses, among other things, circular linking, consistent link density, "one link per entry" on disambiguation pages, avoiding links within quotations, and many other things that amount to style guidelines not related to relevance. Dcoetzee 18:35, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

The controlling guideline on those issues is WP:MOSLINK. I've added a hatnote to the Other considerations section to make that clear. This guideline should not go beyond simple relevance. In fact, perhaps that section should be taken out altogether.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 06:01, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Remove section which duplicates WP:MOSLINK

Currently the Other considerations section duplicates WP:MOSLINK. As per Dcoetzee's comments above, this causes this guideline to go well beyond it's original purpose. I've added a hatnote to the section to emphasize that MOSLINK is the controlling guideline, but I'm thinking that the section should just be removed altogether. WP:OVERLINK shouldn't be a style guideline, it should be a much simpler, more straightforward directive to Only make links relevant to the context with some specific examples. If it gets too specific, then it starts to encroach on MOSLINK's "territory", as it were. Thoughts?--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 06:11, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Or merge the two pages. Tony (talk) 07:12, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I think merging is a good idea. Lightmouse (talk) 08:35, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't merge them completely. Move the more specific stuff over to MOSLINK and make OVERLINK a more general guideline along the lines of WP:Build the web. I envision OVERLINK and BUILD as setting forth the fundamental tenets of linking, while MOSLINK would be the practical, detailed guideline.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 17:25, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I see BTW as having been written by link extremists who want to scattergun-link everything in sight. I thought you said a little while ago that you felt BTW and CONTEXT were pretty close together, or some such. BTW is not written like a guide. It's more like an essay. As far as I'm concerned it can stay, but it certainly doesn't belong in MOSLINK. This guide does. MOSLINK itself already sings from the same songsheet on the need for a more skilled and selective approach to linking. Tony (talk) 14:40, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

As I said last time we discussed it, the way the guideline is written now does not promote the sort of "scattergun-link" mindset that it may have originally. And yes, BTW is not written in a specific way. I think this was done intentionally (and if not, then I certainly intend it that way), because it's really not supposed to be a specific step-by-step guideline that sets out a lot of specific examples. All BTW is there for is to remind us that we should link, period. It does not state that you should link everything, or to link anything you please. It simple puts out in writing the basic thing that makes Wikipedia, and wikis in general, such a useful tool: "we can link, so do it. How you do it is up to you."

I would like OVERLINK to be as general as BUILD. I don't think they should be completely eclipsed by MOSLINK, rather MOSLINK should be the detailed and specific guideline that implements the spirit of BUILD and OVERLINK, much as the spirit of the very general exhortation "m:Don't be a dick" is implemented by the much more specific policies of WP:CIVIL, WP:BITE, and almost all the the other behavioral guidelines on Wikipedia. I would also refer you to WP:IAR, which is also pretty darn general.

By the way, I would just like to note that while Category:Articles with too many wikilinks has exactly SIX articles in it at present, Category:Dead-end pages has 591, and Category:Orphaned articles has a whopping 33,344 articles in it. So I'm really hard-pressed to understand WHERE all this "scattershot" linking is. It seems to me that underlinking is currently a far bigger issue.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 19:56, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

First, I'd never heard of that "overlinked" category; I'm not surprised that it's almost empty. I could shovel thousands of article names in there right now. Give me an example of articles that are underlinked, then? Why do I never encounter these? Second, by is BTW a guideline and not an essay? Tony (talk) 05:38, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

"How you do it is up to you." Well, this is how we got into the scattergun period; people will naturally follow an urge to chunk up their text with links without thinking of the reading experience or utility—I've caught myself doing it. Editors need a fairly strong set of guidelines to stop them doing this, just as they need to apply discipline to their use of non-free content. MOSLINK already does the job of saying "there are links, therefore use them" (to which I'd add "stragetically" or "selectively"). People have to be guided into using wikis well, which is why we have lots of policies and guidelines; the plain fact is that the more we used these internal links, the more they dilute each other. That may not seem obvious to a newbie.

Under Ckatz's formula, the name of his own country, Canada, is not allowed to appear unlinked; it must be bright-blue to beckon the readers to click it in their ignorance of Canada, no matter what the topic is. It's highly unlikely that such scattergun linking will serve its intended purpose: on the contrary, it defeats the value of wikilinking—or if it doesn't defeat it, it greatly weakens it. Tony (talk) 03:32, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure how you came up with "not allowed to appear unlinked"; I'd ask you to justify it, but fully expect you won't (and can't) based on previous requests. That aside, it would help the discussion a lot if you could avoid these broad, overly dramatic generalizations. Not everyone agrees with your disdain for the blue links, but insinuating that we'd like to paint the whole page blue just because we don't agree with your view is unhelpful --Ckatz^chat_spy 04:29, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Ah, there you are—I just put that in to wake you up. Tony (talk) 05:34, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I think it's odd that you ask me to point towards some underlinked articles right after I included a link to Category:Dead-end pages, which includes over 500 examples of completely unlinked articles. Here's another one: Wikipedia:Dead-end pages.

I'm not arguing that there weren't people that were in favor of massive overlinking in the beginning, I just think that the problem is much smaller now, since we have CONTEXT and MOSLINK. If you really think that BUILD is totally against Wikipedia consensus, I invite you to try completely removing all links from a few Featured Articles, and see what sort of consensus forms. I think you may be somewhat surprised.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 13:10, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

It might be tempting to cast me and others who want to raise the standard of linking on WP as anti-link. Nothing is further from the truth: the whole point of disciplined, more selective linking is to make the wikilinks that are valuable work better. I'm pro-linking, in that respect. Tony (talk) 13:22, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Exactly my point. You are pro-linking. We all are, or we wouldn't be involved in a wiki. The reason why BUILD is a guideline and not an essay is that HAVING LINKS is an integral part of what we are. And yes, the linking should be disciplined. That's why BUILD is limited by CONTEXT and MOSLINK. Removing the specifics from CONTEXT and moving them to MOSLINK would restore CONTEXT's original purpose, in my opinion, which was not to micro-manage when and when not to link, but to provide a more general exhortation to use your common sense and not link every darn thing you see, but only provide the relevant ones. CONTEXT discourages wanton overlinking, while BUILD discourages wanton removal of links. I see nothing wrong with this arrangement. Actually, I might favor a merger of CONTEXT and BUILD into one page, called, for example, WP:Common-sense linking (or similar), that would, in one page, encompass the dynamic tension that is currently split between them. However, this page, just as BUILD is now (and CONTEXT should be) would be a very general guideline, setting forth the philosophical (wiki-sophical?) foundations of wiki-linking on Wikipedia. MOSLINK could then (as it does now) implement that philosophy, providing the nitty-gritty details of when and when not to link. To put it in different terms, BUILD and CONTEXT should be worded as a general set of values, while MOSLINK specifies the actions we should take based on those values. To draw a comparison to law, BUILD and CONTEXT should be the national constitution, while MOSLINK should be the detailed legal code. (When I sat down to write this, it was only going to be 2 or 3 sentences. Which is odd, considering how much I hated writing papers in high school and college.) Cheers!--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 18:11, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Aha, here it is. Sorry, I saw the links to WP:BUILD over at WP:MOS and WP:MOSLINK first and didn't see the discussion, so I reverted. I'll try to grab recent discussions and put them all here. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 00:20, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

←As recently discussed at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_55#Redundant guidelines, there are 4 different pages giving 4 different sets of advice on what to link: Wikipedia:Build the web, Wikipedia:Only make links that are relevant to the context, Wikipedia:Wikipedia doesn't use Allwiki and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links). I remember Aervanath was working on this a while ago, and I'm glad to see that some progress has been made: User:Mr.Z-man recently demoted WP:ALLWIKI. But we're not home yet; I see that WP:BUILD still has sentences like this one: "George Washington should be linked to from President of the United States". It is very uncommon for a page on a particular public office to link to all the individuals who have been holders of that office. The style guidelines have ignored WP:BUILD and WP:ALLWIKI for a long time, and it looks like further work and negotiation is going to have to happen if we want to start linking to WP:BUILD. Better yet, it's probably time to get rid of at least one of the 3 remaining pages, and maybe 2 of them. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 03:19, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Clarification. Allwiki has never been accepted practice at Wikipedia. The section now at WP:ALLWIKI was originally in WP:BUILD but only as a sidebar discussion that defined then explicitly rejected the practice. Aervanath recently moved it out to a separate page in an attempt to make the others more readable. Nothing should link to WP:ALLWIKI except the occasional rebuttal of a new user who makes the perennial suggestion that we should change our practices and begin to link everything.
I'll also disagree with your interpretation of the example in BUILD. While you're right that a page on a particular public office should not link to all the holders of that office, it is quite common to link to the first holder of the office. That's not to say that the example can't be improved, though. If you think you can improve it, be bold. Rossami (talk) 17:12, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Break 1

Answering Itub's question from WP:MOSLINK on what's wrong with putting George Washington in the President article: nothing, but BUILD is introducing a notion of responsibility; it's saying that it's the job of the editors to build the web, to think about what other articles might be orphaned, and to use links from the article you're writing to fix that. The complete sentence in BUILD is: "Introduce links from related articles to avoid orphaning the article (George Washington should be linked to from President of the United States)." This is not a burden editors have been interested in taking up, nor one we've been mentioning in the style guidelines ... but it's not a bad idea, either; Wikipedia works better without orphaned articles, of course, so I believe there's some room for negotiation. But we can't decide among ourselves and foist it on the writers; whatever it is, they have to agree that it's a good goal and be willing to do it. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 13:18, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

That's fine with me. I think that the issue here is that there are so many different opinions on what the ideal level of linking is and how to enforce it, so any attempt to simplify the status quo is going to get blocked by people who think it is being simplified in the wrong direction. I will restate my views on the ideal outcome here:

• BUILD and CONTEXT should be brief, very simply stated guidelines, possibly combined in one page. They should NOT be detailed, but should be general statements of principle.
• MOSLINK should be very detailed, and should implement the principles set out in BUILD and CONTEXT or whatever page eventually combines the two.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 21:19, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. I'll undo my reversion of the two places where you linked to BUILD, but I second your motion to combine BUILD and CONTEXT into one page; let's merge them into BUILD. The merge notice will be enough of a clue to editors that we're still working this out. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 21:50, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Reversions are undone, so WP:MOS and WP:MOSLINK have Aervanath's additions of the link to BUILD. As long as those links are there, we need to at least be discussing how to reconcile BUILD and CONTEXT, so I've added merge notices to both. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 22:14, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

• Run past me again why we need three pages for linking and not just MOSLINK? Tony (talk) 10:09, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• • I've asked around, and so far, we don't, which is great ... first time in the history of WP that we have a chance of getting everyone on the same page on this issue. I'll redirect the merge notices to WP:MOSLINK. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 15:56, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Merging seems like a good idea to me. Lightmouse (talk) 18:29, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• Oh well, I might as well make sure my message point has been pollenated to the key places… Links should always be topical and germane. Properly chosen links anticipate what the readership of any given article would likely be interested in further reading. As such, judiciously selected links invite exploration and learning. In many cases, a reader’s reaction should be “Cool… I didn’t expect they’d have an article on that too!”  When links are judiciously employed in articles, they become more interesting and effective. This isn’t accomplished when articles are over-linked. But…

  If an article has zero articles that link to it, then some measure of effort should be made to get a high-profile link to it. Such links don’t have to be awkward shoe-horns that make body text blue; they can be in the See also section. Whatever works best under the circumstances. If two articles are highly redundant, then merge them. That’s my 2¢. Greg L (talk) 19:16, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

That seems like a nice summary. All I would add is, if the first several links a reader clicks on from your article lead to irrelevant or poorly written pages, they are less likely to click on any future links in your article, and they'll probably expect less from Wikipedia as a whole, too. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 19:30, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• Support merge. And maybe MOS:LINK should be moved to WP:WikiLinking is a science and a form of art, but that's a separate issue. Everyme 23:12, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• Yes, merge. BUILD and CONTEXT are suffering from bipolar disorder. I understand they exist in tension, but rather than standing alone, they need to be fit together. It's probably best to resolve the conflicts where possible, and allow the conflicting goals to appear together to let readers try to understand the whole story, rather than one half at a time. Dhaluza (talk) 23:32, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Very succinctly put.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 19:07, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Rough draft of merge

I've whipped up a very rough draft of what a merge of BUILD and CONTEXT might look like at Wikipedia:Build with Context. I've specifically kept it very general, since (as I've said before) I think we should keep the detailed implementation at WP:MOSLINK.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 19:44, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

P.S. "Very rough" means please feel free to improve it! Cheers! --Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 19:45, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

When people are voting "yes" above, they're probably voting yes to the current merge proposal, which is to merge both pages into MOSLINK. Generally, that means starting with MOSLINK, and adding material from both pages that isn't already present in some form at MOSLINK, and "merging" generally carries a flavor of "without contradicting MOSLINK", although everything is subject to negotiation. Do you have time to give that a shot, Aervanath? (Feel free to keep working at the page you started; in the end, if the merge proposal passes, and that looks likely at the moment, we'll just end up with one page, WP:MOSLINK.) - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 21:46, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

A two-step merge may not be a bad idea. Trying to deal with three things at once is not that easy. Dhaluza (talk) 22:52, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

This assumes that MOSLINK is generally right where the pages disagree. Why should we assume that? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:28, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

The reason I haven't tried to merge MOSLINK into it as well is that I would like one place to be more of a general outline of principle. The merger as I envision it would be a place to set out the general ideal ("Don't underlink, and don't overlink."), whereas MOSLINK would be the place where we could set out exactly what constitutes over- and under-linking and what should and should not be linked. I'd like to get some reasons on why that wouldn't be a good idea before I worry about cramming it into MOSLINK as well. I tried that before, and it just got too unwieldy.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 23:06, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Only because, at the moment, I believe I'm seeing a 5 to 1 vote (assuming you're the one) on the current merge proposal. If you've got the time, working up two pages, a two-way merge and a three-way merge for comparison, would be great. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 00:40, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Again, why should our poor editors have to go to two different pages to locate guidance about linking? Why this boundary between general and detailed? Tony (talk) 03:48, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

And I've now looked at this proposed "Build with context" (note sentence case). I don't like the way "underlinking" is privileged by first position (twice)—as the point of departure. Overlinking is like a cancer at WP, so encouraging people to link seems like a backward step; I've never understood Avaerneth's points about underlinking: where is it? Examples provided there are just the kind of items we've been unlinking for some time: "desert", "Africa", "18th century"—hello? Tony (talk) 03:54, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

IMO, including "underlinking" is essential to provide some balance.Dejvid (talk) 10:41, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

• Guys, if you think the current proposal doesn't look quite right, SOFIXIT. I'm pretty busy in the big scary Outside World at the moment, and don't have the time I'd wish to sit down and perfect this like it needs. I've provided a very rough draft as a starting place for people to work on. It can be ignored, improved, scrapped. expanded, shrunk or whatever.
• The reason I'd like a separation between the general and the detailed is that one would be a more stable statement of principle. I hope that the eventual Linking guideline would stay pretty consistent over time, changing only with widely established consensus, whereas MOSLINK would be the more nit-picky, detailed, battleground over the "link this, don't link that" items. If you guys don't think that it's a good idea, then, ok, I can live with that.
• Tony, I've pointed out Category:Dead-end pages at least twice to you before now. Please don't keep asking me for some articles which are underlinked. There are 500 of them in there. I've also pointed out Wikipedia:Dead-end pages, for some more examples, and Category:Orphaned articles, which has over 30,000 examples of articles that need to be linked to. Please tell me why these are not evidence of underlinking. Also, please support your contention of massive overlinking by providing links to a similar or even larger list/category of articles which suffer from overlinking. Until then, I really don't understand your point of view.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 11:22, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, I went to this month's list. The first is a one-sentence stub, with one good link outwards. The second contains silly links such as "authors", "difficult" and "philosophy" in the first sentence. One of the sentences is this: "ldy rhFkZ xq# pj.k esa] lsok ti ri ;ksx AA opu osn ds lw= gSa] ^’kadj* gV x;k jksx AA sakala tirth guru caran+a". Um .... Tony (talk) 12:03, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

In any cleanup category, you're going to find articles which need cleanup in more than one area. However, I just went and clicked through to the first 10 articles in Category:Dead-end pages from October 2008, and found nothing that bad. (That would be Bajaj Club through Ecological Forecasting). What I did find was a lot of articles that needed improvement. They would especially be improved by adding some quality wikilinks to relevant topics.

I have yet to be pointed to this massive deluge of overlinking which you claim is drowning the encyclopedia.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 04:02, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Protected

Due to the recent edit warring this page has been protected for 72 hours. Please use the time to discuss the matter here and come to a consensus on what should and shouldn't be included on the page. If an urgent edit needs to be made during the protection, please place the template {{editprotected}} here with details of the edit that needs to be made and justification for the edit, and an administrator will come by to make the edit. If you have agreed and resolved the dispute before the expiry of the protection, please make a listing at requests for unprotection. While it is also possible to make such requests on my talk page, it would be quicker for you to use those previous methods. Thank you. Stifle (talk) 12:33, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

RfC now open on linking dates of birth and death

Is it desirable or is it undesirable for dates of birth and death at the top of a biography article to be linked to corresponding "day" and "year" pages?

Further to discussions above, an RfC is now open at WT:MOSNUM#RfC: Linking of dates of birth and death -- Jheald (talk) 11:54, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I would say that if the person was famous enough that their birth or death is noted at the linked date page, then it might be useful. Otherwise, it's just a "bridge to nowhere". Dhaluza (talk) 22:54, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry? What is a bridge to nowhere? Tony (talk) 03:46, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I suppose Dhaluza refers to a (birth/death) date link. That is, unless we have decided to discuss Governor Palin from now on instead of boring Wikipedia stuff. Waltham, The Duke of 21:52, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Moving links to footnotes

Would there be any interest in noting on this page that one way to add links of secondary interest is to move "editorial aside" comments to a footnote and link to the articles there. i.e. instead of putting an aside in brackets, put it in a note at the bottom of the article instead. For example, instead of linking Troy weight vs Avoirdupois weight in the main article, a footnote could be used to explicate what units are being used in the article, and to mention the different weight systems and to link to them. Carcharoth (talk) 22:08, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I would argue that this sort of style advisory should be in WP:MOSLINK, not here. It is a good idea, though.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 22:51, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Raised here. Carcharoth (talk) 00:04, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, much better in footnotes than the main text; people who are really interested will read the link—this extra "filter" is highly desirable and makes a secondary link unobtrusive. Tony (talk) 03:45, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

most readers?

In saying what shouldn't be linked to, this guideline mentions "Items that would be familiar to most readers of the article...". I think we should replace "most readers" with "almost all readers". The beauty of links is that you simultaneously serve the beginner (by providing extra info) while serving the advanced reader (by letting them skip over unneeded reading). In a good article most readers should have no reason to click on most links, but all links should be useful to some readers. To me this guideline, seems to be overstressed about the problems of overlinking, without seeing the benefits of good linking.--Rob (talk) 07:10, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Good observation. It sounds like you should be involved in the discussion above.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 19:07, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Agree. Most readers can easily be confused for most readers like me, which brings in WP:BIAS. Almost all readers forces you to think more broadly, and consider people who may not be like you. Dhaluza (talk) 22:56, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree with shifting the test towards linking. "Most readers" is fine by me; "almost all" is starting to give the link-everything crowd too much support in their arguments that particular items should be linked. "Most" is still sufficiently inexact to allow some leeway. Tony (talk) 03:44, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Support the change; as an aside, I'd ask Tony to stop the divisive comments (such as the above "link-everything crowd"). --Ckatz^chat_spy 05:00, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Should CONTEXT and BUILD be merged into MOSLINK?

The result of the discussion is pretty clearly merge all three. So, fine, I'm closing the poll, even though I disagree with the consensus. Someone please be bold and do it already. WP:Voting is evil.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 16:26, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Let's get some basic responses here on the proposal to merge this page (WP:CONTEXT and WP:BTW into WP:MOSLINK before proceeding on the details of the proposal.

• Support. Tony (talk) 12:28, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

• Support. Lightmouse (talk) 12:58, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
• Yep, doing things on one page is the default position; exceptions should be rare. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 13:03, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
• Support, seems like a generally good idea to me. Pagrashtak 14:20, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
• Fine in principle. These pages go back before section redirects, which is how they would now be configured. The alternative is to take the advice on when to link out of WP:MOSLINK, which was originally severely technical. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:45, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose: Merge CONTEXT and BUILD into one statement of principle, use MOSLINK for the application of the principle.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 17:02, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
• Close the poll. We have to reach agreement on the proposed content before we can start arguing over trivialities like what page to file it under. Wikipedia successfully tolerates duplication in the vast majority of its policy and guideline pages. Consolidating BUILD and CONTEXT probably makes sense. Shoehorning that into MOSLINK might work but might not depending on the level of detail that we think readers need to see. MOSLINK does not good if our readers refuse to read the page because it becomes too big. We need to actually look at the content before we can make that as an informed decision, though. This proposal to decide the title before the content is exactly backwards from the way we should be making the decision. Rossami (talk) 17:54, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
• Since all these pages are style-related (and navigation-related, but not so much), it makes sense to merge them. It certainly is a good place to start reducing the sprawl characterising the Manual of Style. The current balance between warning against overlinking and underlinking should, of course, be maintained. I do think MOSLINK could expand a bit on the subject, which is what the merger should ensure (otherwise we are talking about the deletion of the two pages). Now, depending on the amount of information we wish to retain from the two pages, we might need to re-organise MOSLINK, and if it proves too much for the page to hold we need to consider the option of a page uniting "Build the web" and "CONTEXT". I suppose before deciding we should have an idea of how the merger is supposed to happen. Personally, I think not being too specific might make the guideline more effective. Waltham, The Duke of 22:16, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
• Turn CONTEXT and BUILD into essays espousing different viewpoints and merge anything useful into MOS. These pages strike me as instruction creep. We all agree that we shouldn't have "too many" or "too few" links, but we will never agree exactly how many. Leave it to editor discretion and local consensus. --Itub (talk) 06:41, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

This seems to disregard the clear evolution of opinion and practice on WP towards more selective wikilinking, if anything, to maximise the utility of high-value links. This section is intended to be simply a preliminary request for in-principle feedback, rather than opening gambits for maximum vs minimum linking policy. MOSLINK already spells out what should not be linked. Tony (talk) 08:11, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Geographic example

User:Dhaluza recently added the following example as a footnote to the geographical section of this page.

<ref>The same principle applies to geographic place names. Link to [[Troy, New York]] rather than [[Troy, New York|]], [[New York]], since the more specific article should contain a link to the more general one already.</ref>

User:Spacepotato has repeatedly removed it, arguing first that it was "undiscussed", then that "there is no advantage" to it. I restored it because this example is, to me, identical in principle to the "flag of Tokelau" example in the 5th bullet of the "what generally should not be linked" section. That example has been uncontroversial on this page for over two years. Dhaluza's addition seemed a bit redundant but certainly not controversial.

Spacepotato has removed again, this time saying that "Obviously, it is not the same principle as Troy, New York contains a link to Troy, New York." I am completely confused by that comment. Troy, New York contains a link to New York just like flag of Tokelau contains a link to Tokelau. How is this different? Rossami (talk) 21:18, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Writing [[flag of Tokelau]] instead of [[flag]] of [[Tokelau]] is superior because it provides a link to a more specific concept, flag of Tokelau, that the reader is more likely to be interested in. This is not a factor when deciding whether to write [[Troy, New York|Troy]], [[New York]] or [[Troy, New York]], because both examples contain a link to the more specific concept, viz., Troy, New York. Spacepotato (talk) 21:40, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

By that logic, our existing example should be rewritten to encourage the format the [[flag of Tokelau|flag]] of [[Tokelau]]. Tokelau and New York are general articles, both clearly linked from their respective specific articles and easily followed by any reader wanting to find the general concept. Rossami (talk) 22:35, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

The reader can find any article by some chain of links, or by using the search box, but this is not an argument against providing the link. As for linking to the [[flag of Tokelau|flag]] of [[Tokelau]], I agree. Spacepotato (talk) 22:46, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

One of the purposes of having the article title at Troy, New York (or even Ossining, New York, which is not so called for disambiguation) is to make linking to it easy and natural; the minority of readers who need a link to New York will find one in the article on Troy. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:18, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

We should absolutely not be switching to the format [[flag of Tokelau|flag]] of [[Tokelau]]. That would hide flag of Tokelau behind a piped link. As experienced users, we use pipes rather freely on Talk pages but the vast majority of our users don't know what that is and are confused when links take them someplace they didn't expect. The natural expectation of a reader seeing a bluelink for "flag" is that the link will take him/her to the general page on flags, not to a specific page about only one flag. The Manual of Style for piping is quite clear that we must keep the links as intuitive as possible. The change you're talking about would violate that principle. Rossami (talk) 15:46, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

This argument has some weight in the case of flag of Tokelau, but it is not relevant for Troy, New York as, whatever format is used, clicking on Troy will lead to Troy. Spacepotato (talk) 21:16, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Editors may find it pleasant to write [[Troy, New York]], but this does not address the question of which form is superior for the users of the encyclopedia. Spacepotato (talk) 00:04, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

But there are two sides to that. The convoluted form [[Troy, New York|Troy]], [[New York]] produces Troy, New York; but if you click on it, you may or may not get to Troy; you may get to New York without wanting to. Those readers will be inconvenienced by the form Spacepotato wants; the straightforward form will inconvenience only those readers who are led to New York and miss the link at the beginning of Troy, New York. This is why we have customs against Easter eggs in our links.

At this point, we consider that if editors are compelled to jump through hoops, they will spend time doing so rather than writing content; some of them will give up in disgust and not write any content. Neither serves the reader. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:26, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Surely, readers who click on New York expect to go to New York. Also, it's a mistake to conflate the question of how articles are named (which is not consistent from region to region) with that of how to link. The issue of how to link Troy, New York is no different from that of linking Hamburg, Germany, despite the fact that the articles on the two towns are named differently. Spacepotato (talk) 08:55, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

No, Hamburg is different from Troy; English usage differs. Hamburg, Germany (except in contexts where disambiguation is necessary) is an archaic Americanism; Troy, New York is standard usage (except, again, in extreme cases, where the fact that it is the American Troy and which state we are considering has already been made clear). Since we should only be linking the first use of Troy, New York anyway, the exception rarely applies.

This is another proposal to reform the English language; I deplore it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

The Troy, New York is identical in principle to flag of Tokelau, but it's even worse to link Troy, New York to two separate articles, because since the links are adjacent (except for the tiny black comma), people are likely to think that it is just one link and click in the wrong place. --Itub (talk) 06:37, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

What is wrong with Troy, New York? Focus the reader on the most unique part of the link. Tony (talk) 12:04, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Tony, I assume you meant [[Troy, New York|Troy]], New York (you wrote [[Troy]], New York). I agree with Dhaluza that we shouldn't link to a general item when the specific article contains a link to the more general one. The link itself is about the city - the fact that the city lies in a particular state doesn't require a separate link to that state. The names of US cities are something a difficult case, because the function of disambiguation (distinguishing Portland, Oregon from Portland, Maine) is intertwined with the function of giving background information, the name of the state, in the same way as I might write that "Le Mans, France is twinned with Bolton, England"; not because disambiguation is required but simply to inform a reader who might otherwise have little idea where either town might be. I don't think that artificially squeezing the state out of the link, as Tony suggests, is a useful approach though - in everyday usage the name of the state is an intrinsic part of the city's name for many US cities, because there are a lot of duplicated names in different states. (It's fine to hide the state name completely via a pipe if it's clear from the context though.) Colonies Chris (talk) 14:01, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

And it is normal usage even when the name itself would be unambiguous, unless the state has already been established by context. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, my mistake—you're both right. Tony (talk) 10:10, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I strongly prefer the form Troy, New York, partly because New York is easy to get to from that article (it's linked in the lead) and partly because it's important to think about print, where links not matching the names would naturally be rendered as cross-references. It's almost always better to have the link name match the link text if possible. Dcoetzee 21:50, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Countries on infoboxes

Just found a country de-linked on an infobox. Can I ask where this was agreed or put forward to any community. GarethHolteDavies (talk) 09:04, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Which country? If it was Tuvalu or Chad, the removal of the link should be reverted, since most English-speakers are unfamiliar with these countries, and a few may wish to interrupt their reading to go to those articles. The United States, the UK, Canada, Australia, France, Germany, Italy, Russia etc, (especially the anglophone ones), should not be linked unless there's a good reason to do so. There are usually much more valuable links in the vicinity, and the aim of wikilinking is to encourage readers to click on the ones that count. Dilution by low-value links has been a significant weakener of our brilliant wilinking system. Tony (talk) 10:08, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

United States? Are you so sure that all English readers are familiar with United States? There may be very good reasons for linking United States, in case people are not so familiar with the United States. Or might not realise that you mean the United States of Africa rather then the United States that is the new name for the thirteen colonies. Some of us here in Europe never bothered updating our maps much since Boston you know. Chad I know, Tuvalu, I've visited, United States is an enigma to me.--Scott MacDonald (talk) 10:31, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion, infoboxes should be able to stand on their own, just like rows of tables. From Wikipedia:Only make links that are relevant to the context#What generally should not be linked: "A link that had last appeared much earlier in the article may be repeated, but generally not in the the same section. (Table entries are an exception to this; each row of a table should be able to stand on its own)." While I would not generally link United States more than once in an article (and definitely not at all if it was surrounded by a number of other links that were more relevant), linking it in an infobox detracts from no other links, since usually each entry is on a line by itself.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 16:56, 8 October 2008 (UTC)