Talk:Toše Proeski

Editing war

This article needs to be protected. It is being edited and reverted by the same people at a very high rate. Most of the edits aren't even related to his death, rather they are fan reviews, tributes, and political statements. SWik78 19:00, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

My impression right now is that the number of constructive contributions, including those from IPs, is still high enough as to make (semi)protection counterproductive. But I'd suggest you guys first concentrate on getting the biographical details right, and leave the WP:LAME political issues about how to name the country for a bit later. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I would also like to see the discussion page cleaned up as per Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. Comments that are not in english and that are not relevant in improving the article should be removed. SWik78 20:15, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Svik, can't you be a little informal just these two days? Can't you find little humanity in yourself for one hard moment? A great young man died today, Macedonia has lost one of her greatest men.--strich3D 21:00, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Begining of his career

Toše began his career in 1996 on teenage festival MELFEST, not MAKFEST.

79.125.148.42 21:15, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Republic of Macedonia

Clearly there is a lot of debate on which country he was born in. Geographically, everyone agrees that he was born in what is today known as Republic of Macedonia. On the date of his birth, his birth place was located in a country called SFR Yugoslavia. Whether it's SR Macedonia, SFR Yugoslavia or Republic of Macedonia, it should be discussed here and agreed upon before people start changing it back and forth in the article simply based on what they like more politically. SWik78 15:28, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Facts check

Book of Mourning: I know it cause I've seen one displayed here in my home town- Belgrade (today and tomoroww till 19:00 I believe), and I have heard on the news same has been done in many other countries.Icemaja 17:01, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

As per Wiki:Verifiability: "Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed" as well as "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material". You may have seen the book in Belgrade, but most people haven't seen it. There needs to be a reference for everyone reading this article to be able to confirm this information from a reliable source. SWik78 17:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Birth place

Guys, pleaaaaase. Stop changing round the birthplace.

A reference was provided, it's the link to Proeski's own official homepage. The bio (in English) at [1] calls him a "boy from Krusevo" but in the same sentence says he was "born on 25 January 1981 in Prilep".

I don't know what the "from" in "from Krusevo" is supposed to mean if it's not where he was born; maybe he just grew up there, who knows. In any case, the birthplace seems clear.

Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:17, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Again I suggest (semi)protecting the page until the disputes are resolved. There have been over 200 edits of this page since yesterday and the majority did NOT contribute any new information. SWik78 21:48, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I see your point, but I'm still not so sure. Most of the contributions (some obvious silliness aside) still seems to be with good intentions, and quite a few of the contributions from anons are constructive. Don't worry, this will settle down in one or two days, and then it can all be cleaned up. This is what always happens when somebody prominent dies. The policy is to try and keep the articles open for editing as long as possible. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:57, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand the confusion. The information about his birthplace is clear and it's widely available. He was born in a state hospital in Prilep, because Krusevo is a small town. But his family is from Krusevo, and he also grew up in Krusevo (that's why 'a boy from Krusevo'). BTW, God have mercy upon his soul, he was the greatest, not only as a singer :( :( :( ! - iNkubusse^? 23:23, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Lets get it straight

Let me help. Regarding his origin: his family lives in Kruševo where he spent most of his childhood. So he is definetly a "Kruševo boy". It may be true that he was born in the nearby bigger city of Prilep, but Kruševo is definetly his 100% hometown, where after all he was buried yesterday! Regarding his country of birth, check this out: Robbie Williams, John Lennon, Mick Jagger and many other notable musicians are listed in their corresponding wikipedia articles as "born in / origin": England. The United Kingdom (which incl. England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland) is not mentioned at all, although these notable persons were/are its citizens and passport holders. Check it yourself plz. Therefore, I think we dont have to necesarily include SFR Yugoslavia as a place of birth in Tose's article. Yes, we can, but we dont have to. If you decide to do so, then please first add United Kingdom in the aricles of Lennon, MCartney, Jagger and so on and so on, cause otherwise it would be a double standard.--Zorla 00:19, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Removal of "Yugoslavia"

Why should that be removed? I am puzzled ForeignerFromTheEast 20:41, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

There is a difference between where someone is born and where they originate from. Yugoslavia might be acceptable to put by the Born tag but I don't think it should be placed by the Origin tag. Either way, there is clearly disagreement on whether Yugoslavia should be listed on there at all. Make sure that some kind of concensus is reached before editing that again. Otherwise it's going to be changed back and forth every 5 minutes. SWik78 20:58, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Putting in the Born tag is fine with me. I'd like not to revert, so can you please put it there. Also please do not threaten with continued edit waring. This is something that should be avoided. ForeignerFromTheEast 21:03, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Calm down. I'm not threatening anything. I'm stating what has been a trend so far. As soon as someone adds Yugoslavia, someone else removes it and they go back and forth. I, personally, don't even care if it says Macedonia, Yugoslavia or Former Ottoman Empire, I just want it to stop being changed every 5 minutes. SWik78 01:02, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

SR Macedonia with or without Yugoslavia?

Undoubtely SRM was part of SFRY, no one has problem with that fact, however I already gave an explanation: an endless list of internationaly acclaimed UK artists such as Mick Jagger, John Lennon, Jeff Beck, The Beatles, Robbie Williams and you name it are listed in Wikipedia as "born in England" without mentioning the United Kingdom, although all of these artists are/were UK citizens and passport holders (England is not an independent country, theres no such thing as English passport or English army). They have UK passports. Their football team is an exception. Moreover Charles, Prince of Wales is also listed as being born in England (again UK is not mentioned), while Alexander Lukashenko is listed as born in Byelorussian SSR (not mentioning the Soviet Union). The example of Sean Connery that you provided is allright, but thats one of the rare exclusions in wikipedia (at least it seems to me so, normally I cant make a deep research on that I just gave you NOTABLE examples, if Beatles are not notable enough then I dont know). Before you put 'Yugoslavia' in every Macedonia-related article please add United Kingdom to every English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland music related articles and also put Soviet Union to every Russian, Ukrainian, Kazakhstan, Belarus, Kyrghystan, Latvian, Estonian, Armenian, Azeri music related article. Fair play. Otherwise, its double standard. Thank you very much. --Zorla 20:48, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

So I fail to see any specific reason to remove Yugoslavia besides the fact that there exist some cases where the country is removed in favor of subnational entity. Why are you removing? For every biography of a person without "UK" there are equal number of persons with "UK" as birthplace, and since I am not aware of a specific policy to prefer one over the other, I fail to see a reason to systematically remove information like you are trying to do. You could try instead to imporve articles by providing missing data, instead of deleting even more. ForeignerFromTheEast 20:50, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Because its a double standard and I explained it well. In a certain way, you grant the Englishmen the right to "mark" their celebrities on wikipedia as being from England without mentioning the UK, they can even freely put the white Flag of England instead of the blue Union Jack in those articles (see Mick Jagger article for instance). At the same time you insist that the Macedonian editors must put 'Yugoslavia' in all their articles. Not fair. If you really insist on objectivity, first you should correct those other articles, which are far more relevant for the international community and add UK, Soviet Union respectively as I explained before. Your claim that: For every biography of a person without "UK" there are equal number of persons with "UK". First of all i dont know how you got that conclusion, and even if its true the most relevant artists are clearly listed as being from England (The Beatles, Iron Maiden, Sex Pistols, its an endless list) Zorla 21:03, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I dont grant any Englishmen any right to do anything, I fail to see how England is in any way relevant to SR Macedonia. You still have not listed a Wikipedia policy to mandate one choice over the other and you have no real arguments except listing some questionable "precedents". I do not agree with systematically deleting useful information from articles for no good reason. ForeignerFromTheEast 21:05, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

how England is relevant to this discussion? England is a constitutient country (unit) of the UK, as Belarus SSR was a federal unit of the USSR, as SRM was a federal unit in SFRY. Thats the analogy Im trying to make. BTW you havent listed a Wikipedia policy either. I wish there was one so we can solve this for once. Until then Im afraid i will be persistent in following the "English" example (again: The Beatles, Robbie Williams, Peter Gabriel, Sex Pistols, Brian Ferry, David Bowie and so on and so on, there are milions of examples. And moreover, as I already mentioned, many of them bear the Flag of England.Zorla 21:17, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Hello, if I may add my opinion here: I don't think the UK/England is the best parallel, but the former Soviet republics certainly are. My impression is quite a few articles say somebody was born "in Estonia" or "in Ukraine" without adding "(then USSR)" or the like. I personally don't care very much either way, but you seem to have been adding the Yugoslavia reference specifically and systematically to Macedonian articles only. This can easily be perceived as a campaign directed at offending Macedonian editors; I would therefore strongly recommend you refrain from doing this. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:26, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I presume this is addressed to me. I have not so much added Yugoslavia, as to prevent it from being deleted for no good reason. Also why should adding Yugoslavia be offending? ForeignerFromTheEast 21:32, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Why should SR Macedonia-only be offending? Alexander Lukashenko's article lists Byelorussian SSR only, why no one complains bout that? Who knows how many other articles like this exist, but im too tired to hunt them down for this debateZorla 21:37, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

my mistake: it lists the Belarus SSR flag only. Still.Zorla 21:38, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually it says Soviet Union (no I did not change it just now). Again, nothing but vague precedent talk. ForeignerFromTheEast 21:39, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I said. my mistake, it lists the Belarus SSR flag only. Still it contributes to my point.Zorla 21:40, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

But it has a link to Soviet Union which is against your point. ForeignerFromTheEast 21:41, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, lets cut the long story short: obviously the Englishmen are tolerated in their sort of "cultural patriotism" or sorta separatism here, which is more-less allright, while at the same time ethnic Macedonians are forced to make concessions. England (which is a sub-national entity) is allright, while SRM (which was also a sub-national entity?!) is not allright. Thats called Double standard. Plz provide a clear policy and i will follow, until then theres nothing i can add in this debate. I tried to be constructive but for no availZorla 21:48, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea what you are insinuating. If you think there is a problem with the English articles I suggest you improve them, not necessarily conform Macedonian to them. No one is forcing anyone to do anything, Wikipedia is a voluntary project. ForeignerFromTheEast 21:54, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

First, it may be informal and kinda "unencyclopedic" from me, but ForeignerFromTheEast can you leave Tose's soul alone and stop your obvious campaign pointed against his article and the other Macedonian music-related articles? Second, regarding the SRM/Yugoslavia issue everything was well explained to you 3 times minimum. Re-read above.Zorla 22:05, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Photos

I see the photo on this article is marked for deletion. There are some CC photos available on flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/stojance/tags/toseproeski/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/86533211@N00/1623033266/ Maybe these can be used for the article. Novica 11:48, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Ethnic background

The statement that he had an Aromanian family background needs sourcing, or it goes out. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:33, 19 October 2007 (UTC)