Talk:Northern Ireland

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GA delisted

In order to uphold the quality of Wikipedia:Good articles, all articles listed as Good articles are being reviewed against the GA criteria as part of the GA project quality task force. Unfortunately, as of September 19, 2007, this article fails to satisfy the criteria, as detailed below. For that reason, the article has been delisted from WP:GA. However, if improvements are made bringing the article up to standards, the article may be nominated at WP:GAC. If you feel this decision has been made in error, you may seek remediation at WP:GA/R.

• Every statement that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs an inline citation.
• References should state the author, publisher, publishing date and access date if known.

Regards, Epbr123 12:55, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Same thing happened to Dublin - yer just not gettin' yer act together folks! Too much bickering. (Sarah777 21:40, 15 October 2007 (UTC))

Ulster Banner straw poll

Hello there,

A straw poll has opened at this section of the United Kingdom talk page regarding the use of the Ulster Banner for that article's circumstances only. To capture a representative result as possible, you are invited to pass your opinion there. If joining the poll, please keep a cool head, and remain civil. Hope to see you there, Jza84 22:38, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Count this up

Republican paramilitaries have contributed to nearly 60% (2056) of these. Loyalists have killed nearly 28% (1020) while the security forces have killed just over 11% (362) with 9% percent of those attributed to the British Army. That comes to 108% it's meant to be 100% so who added on the extra 8% ? - Culnacréann 18:20, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Where did you go to school 60+28+11=99 the 9% figure is taken from the security force 11%, which would mean the other 3% of that would be attributed to the RUC/PSNI.--Padraig 18:25, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Why quibble? Surely Loyalist/RUC/BA killings should just be bundled together as is done with "Republican paramilitaries"? Then when we look at civilian deaths the British side emerge as the champs. (Sarah777 22:36, 24 October 2007 (UTC))

The Army and NI Police are not paramilitaries. Astrotrain 20:47, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Prior to the GFA they were just that. (Sarah777 21:13, 28 October 2007 (UTC))

no they wern'tDionysus99 19:55, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Described at [1] as "Paramilitary designates forces whose function and organization are similar to those of a professional military force, but which are not regarded as having the same status". Thus the Army are not a paramilitary- whereas the terrorist organisations can be decribed as such. Astrotrain 21:58, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

They were not terrorist organisations. You shouldn't use meaningless words. BA and RUC were trained killers. Fact. Loyalist/RUC/BA killings; all the same. (Sarah777 23:05, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

It is rationale to list them by Republican terrorist killings, Loyalist terrorist killings, Police and then Army. They are all independent of each other. And I suppose the Army are trained killers, it is their job!

Astrotrain 23:10, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

And one they did rather well when it came to Catholic civilians, but weren't so good at killing freedom fighters. Paid killers. It is rational to have only two main lists: Freedom Fighters and British Murder Gangs. Why over-egg it? All else is bull. (Sarah777 23:25, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

And btw Astro, you are transparent; but you'll never make a charge of "anti-Britishness" stick when you are actively making provocative statements. Try it and see! (Sarah777 23:30, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

I haven't made any charges against you. And I haven't made any provocative statements (most people would not be offended by referring to IRA/UVF etc as a terrorist organisation in line with how the British and Irish governments do). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Astrotrain (talk • contribs) 23:37, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

You know you can't call folk terrorists on Wiki. And you have to be very careful who you accuse of genocide or Nazi similarities too. (Sarah777 23:52, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

Do we really have to have this political propoganda pushed onto wikipedia. The official forces of any state are never viewed as paramilitary organisations by any neutral party. Sarah777, I think you should really consider what you want to acheive on this encyclopedia. Trolling is not the purpose of wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ZincBelief (talk • contribs) 10:49, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Northern Ireland in the UK

Added to opening line constituent country, which Northern Ireland is, matching it with England, Wales and Scotland. GoodDay 20:06, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Removed that. Please don't include controversial terms which are still under discussion. There is no agreement on this. (Sarah777 20:35, 28 October 2007 (UTC))

If it is sourced to Downing Street website, it can be used. As usual, Irish Republican editors only want to use sources if it suits their own POV. Astrotrain 20:48, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I've run into a similiar complaint at Scotland, concerning my recent changes. GoodDay 20:50, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with using constituent country if it is supported by a WP:V and is a WP:RS.--Padraig 20:55, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Does one reference on a Downing St website make it legal? Make it a fact? And as for reliable sources a political website??! (Sarah777 21:11, 28 October 2007 (UTC))

Seems everybit as illigitamite as calling Tipperary or Dublin counties! Fasach Nua 21:23, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Hardly, as NI is clearly not a country. "County Dublin" would imply that it is indeed a county, the hint is in the name. But my objection is to using a political website as a reliable source, especially as it seems the only source. If we can do that it opens up a vast range of possibilities for those of us seeking to balance rampant British pov in Ireland related articles. If some Irish Government website remarks that "British Isles" is an incorrect term for these islands, do we change the article name? (Sarah777 21:38, 28 October 2007 (UTC))

But we're talking about Northern Ireland, not the island of Ireland or the Republic of Ireland. GoodDay 21:42, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

We are taliking about wikipedia, which unilaterally made Tipperary a county, regardless of the opinion of the Republic of Ireland government, what is to stop WP unilaterally making NI a country, regardless of the UKs view on the matter? Fasach Nua 21:48, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I doubt you'd find many people in Tipperary (or on Earth) who would agree that wikipedia unilaterally made Tipperary a county!! You will find literally zillions of references to attest to the Tipp is a county - you certainly won't have to depend on a single political website! (Sarah777 21:53, 28 October 2007 (UTC))

Do these literally zillions of references [2] make it legal? Fasach Nua 22:07, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Who said anything about "legal" in ref to Tipp? NI is neither legally a country nor does it have any verifiable references that it is widely regarded as a country. In the link you give I was questioning the implication that the Downing St website implied some legality. The "zillions" for County Tipp are contrasted with the "1" for "NI is a Country". (Sarah777 22:26, 28 October 2007 (UTC))

Nobody said Northern Ireland was a country, it's a constituent country. GoodDay 22:29, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

So, a red rose is not a rose?! (Sarah777 00:28, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

And is a Koala bear not a bear? Fasach Nua 08:28, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

But constituent country has "no defined legal meaning" according to the article in Wikipedia. You could argue that the Republic of Ireland is a constituent country of "the Home Countries" with regard to rugby just as easily. Coolavokig 09:17, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

The Downing Street website is not definitive, but unsourced republican ideology is? The basis for this discussion is patent nonsense.Traditional unionist —Preceding comment was added at 11:55, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Agree this discussion is nonsense as NI is blindingly obviously not a country, red, Koala, constituent or otherwise and there are no independent or reliable sources to support such a ridiculous claim. As for "unsourced republican ideology" - can't see any in this article - where is it? (Sarah777 13:57, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

You are stopping the term being used based on unsourced republican ideology. Encarta for one disagrees with you.Traditional unionist 14:31, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Though it probably won't be added, Northern Ireland is a constituent country. However, if it's gonna be banned from this article? Northern Ireland should be omitted from Constituent country and from United Kingdom. We can't have it both ways, enough of this double standard. GoodDay 14:45, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree it should be removed from the article Constituent country. The Encarta ref is useful but certainly not enough to set against the overwhelming references to NI as a "province", "statelet", "entity" and so forth. As I said that would be akin to removing the name "British Isles" if we could find a few references to say that Ireland isn't included - which we can. (Sarah777 15:26, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

This is a very Lame as content disputes go, if Downing street say its a constituent country of the UK and a WP:V has been provided to support that then it should be included, if anyone can find other sources to dispute this then that can also be mentioned, but we can't censor an term just because some may not agree with it.--Padraig 15:28, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Its good to know some republicans have some common sense.Traditional unionist 15:35, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

No10 is a political website; not a reliable source. Also the uttering of a single website cannot over-ride mass usage. The sources to "dispute" this usage are the vast array of times in print where NI is referred to as a "province" for example. Or a "failed entity" even - probably a more common usage than "country"; after all that is how an Irish Prime Minister (your No10 equivalent) described it. What is important about this is that the very same editors who insist on the term "British Isles" are reversing all the arguments top claim NI is a country. Let us have a SINGLE standard to apply to articles relating to these islands. (Sarah777 15:54, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

What sort of evidence do you require Padraig to counter the No10 political website? Maybe the Sinn Fein website? If I can muster 5 references to NI as a "province" rather than a "country" is that enough for you? (Sarah777 15:59, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

Sarah the British has always refered to the north as a province not a country, the term constituent country dosent alter that or make it a country as its a meaningless term to start with, and the Downing street website is a British government website, therefore its content is the opinion of the Prime Minister and his government. As for sources on it being refered to as a province, I give sources to support its use in a discussion either in another section of this page or on the United Kingdom talk page, if you want to dig them out, then you could add that it is also regarded as a province. But either way the term cannot be excluded.--Padraig 16:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

No wish to exclude and certainly not to censor. But the article should call NI a constituent part or province, not a country. We can refer in a footnote or some such that some very limited sources call it a "country" - much as we'd have to do with a claim that the tricolour represents NI in some folks opinion. (Sarah777 16:30, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

Sarah we can use constituent country and add the reference to the Downing Street website, then add the use of the term province also with references.--Padraig 17:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

But that would be like putting the tricolour in the NI box with a ref to the SF website and then adding references to support the use of the Union Jack lower down. My point is that "country" is (almost) original research with very little usage compared to other terms; plus it is inaccurate. (Sarah777 18:35, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

Presumably that means that FIFA has got it wrong all these years – calling Northern Ireland a country ‘n all? And PRONI (a Northern Ireland 'non departmental public body' refers to the 'country of Northern Ireland' on it's first web page, And Britanica.com refer it to a country. Perhaps somebody had better tell the Northern Ireland tourist board is isn't a country as they seem to think it is -. Oh yes and the UK National Statistics call Northern Ireland a country too - but heh! what would they know .... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dionysus99 (talk • contribs) 19:53, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

(Deindenting) It seems to me that 'country' is fairly non-specific and uncontentious. It doesn't imply statehood or the like, it's just a place. I think there would be grounds for complaint if it said "constituent nation"! I don't think that Sarah's complaint is well founded. --Red King 20:19, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Not in the least bit uncontentious. NI is simply not a country, by any measure. Redking7 might even agree - it seems he is the chap I thought was you in the Inis Mor affair. (Sarah777 20:33, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

Well ok, maybe it is not a Country! (but then neither is England, Scotland or Wales by the same definition!). --Red King 20:48, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

No Red, I would argue with you on those three despite my not being much given to argument.(Sarah777 21:01, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

Consistancy folks - It's either re-add constituent country here OR remove the term from United Kingdom, England, Wales and Scotland. The current status among these articles are unacceptable. What's it gonna be? GoodDay 21:07, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Important Surrender Announcment: notwithstanding the obvious fact that I am entirely right (as usual) in a spirit of Wikiness, and in the absence of any visible support, I hereby withdraw my objection to describing NI as a "constituent country". (This was in no way related to the fact that Googling "NI is a country" threw up 35,000 hits). (Sarah777 21:38, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

The "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" is one country consisting of four parts. The island of "Great Britain" has two constituent countries (Scotland and England), and one principality (Wales). "Northern Ireland" is a province on the island of Ireland. Jnthn Rsh (talk) 18:13, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

You are absolutely correct - but emotions trump facts all the time on Wiki so long as the emotions are in the Anglophone mainstream. (Sarah777 (talk) 02:58, 18 December 2007 (UTC))

Archive

Could some soul with technical knowhow archive the older threads on this page, its getting unwieldly, thanks Fasach Nua 22:52, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Y'know, I was going to say exactly the same thing. So we agree on something? (Sarah777 00:29, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

Done.--Patrick Ѻ 16:35, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Ireland vs Republic of Ireland

The edit made is fine, but just to clear up the edit summary, the EU website has around 4 and a half thousand references to the Republic of Ireland, and the UN website also refers to it, but a number is hard to find, as google throws up Iran (Islamic Republic of) Ireland as a hit. Which isn't correct. My point is that the term is widely used throughout the world to refer to the Country just as there is a vernacular for the Republic of ChinaTraditional unionist 15:16, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

If you are referring to this edit, then I, personally, think it's quite puerile. I've warred over "Ireland vs. Republic of Ireland" on the "Ireland" side in the past, but when drawing parallels with Northern Ireland, and speaking in terms of the island, then it's obvious that "Republic of Ireland" is the clearest way of putting it. --sony-youth^pléigh 16:03, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd say it was puerile if it was anywhere other than the intro. It's probably worth the clarification there.Traditional unionist 16:15, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

The intro states "officially named Ireland", this is not the case, in UK law (Ireland Act 1949), the name of the state is "The Republic of Ireland", and therefore in NI it is officially called the Republic of Ireland Fasach Nua 10:06, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

At the time of the British-Irish Agreement (not part of the agreement itself) both governments agreed to use the official names by which each state describes itself (see here). If anyone knows where exactly they agreed this, I'd appreciate it. --sony-youth^pléigh 11:04, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that link, it did contain some interesting information, but as you say it was an agreement between Govenments, the question would be how this agreement was implemented, was the Ireland Act 1949 ammended or revoked as a result. In theory the government should opperate within the law, not that I could imagine the UK govenment behaving dishonesty in its foreign relations! Fasach Nua 11:25, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

"dishonestly in its foreign relations" - ah, but RoI is "not a foreign country" under the 1949 act :) --sony-youth^pléigh 11:29, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Removed the un-needed (possibly contraversial) info. It's covered at Ireland and Republic of Ireland (as it should be). Let's avoid the potential for political fighting, shall we? GoodDay 20:57, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

The cure was worse than the disease. So I've removed the sentence completely as it doesn't need to be in the intro and it certainly can't be expressed in a ten words or less sentence. --Red King 22:15, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

"Partition of Ireland, partition of Ulster"

Before I changed it (possibly for the worse!), the last sentence of Northern Ireland#Partition of Ireland, partition of Ulster said The Council of Ireland provided for in the 1920 Act, and in the Treaty, to link Northern Ireland eventually to the Irish Free State within 50 years was removed. Does anybody know what this is supposed to mean. The Council of Ireland article doesn't mention it. I've tried to rephrase it and put a fact tag on it. --Red King 22:34, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

The Council of Ireland article does mention it, but it applied to "Southern Ireland - Northern Ireland" not to "Irish Free State - Northern Ireland." A rewrite would be: "The Council of Ireland provided for in the Government of Ireland Act 1920 was intended to rejoin Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland under a single parliament within a 50-year period. However, events in the south over took this provision, and many others, from the 1920 act, so that with the Anglo-Irish Treaty, and the establishment of the Irish Free State, the Council of Ireland was non-operational and no formal structures existed to facilitate future Irish unity." --sony-youth^pléigh 15:22, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Presumably the Government of Ireland Act 1920 been repealed then? What replaced it? (anything before 1948?) I see for example at Boundary Commission (Ireland)#Dáil Debates on the Commission, 7 - 10 December 1925 a complaint from Professor Megennis that the clause hadn't been referred to in the agreement. This would have just been 'comfort wording' if the provsion remained in British Statutes. It was certainly my impression that there was some talk during the time of the Belfast Agreement that the Council of Ireland should meet (and David Trimble called for a counter-balancing "Council of the Isles". --Red King 20:38, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

From recollection the "Council of Ireland" was the title of the All-Ireland body in the Sunningdale Agreement, which some attribute as one of the main reasons for the Agreement's ultimate downfall (and also Gerry Fitt says it was the SDLP's insistence on it that made the party a nationalist party not a socialist party). Was this a new body explicitly legislated for or was it the 1920 body finally being activated under legislation that was never repealed? Timrollpickering 20:44, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

The Black North

Is this a spoof? I've heard of the industrial north of England as "the Black North", but not NI. Just because somebody may have used it in jest a couple of times doesn't make it widely accepted. I've also heard the expression "the frozen north", but wouldn't dream of listing it. I don't think this one deserves a citation tag. If no-one objects in the next 7 days, I'll delete it. --Red King (talk) 20:47, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I thought it was used to describe the high proportion of our protestant brothers in the north.--Vintagekits (talk) 20:50, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Royal Black Preceptory = the most anti-Irish/Catholic of the anti-Irish/Catholic organisations; the Orange Order are Catholic communists compared to them. Hence the use of the word Black as in Black North and Black Bastard while not nice, is most likely not unwelcome to members of that institution. 213.202.184.252 (talk) 04:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Citizenship

The annon may well have a point. Question number one before I go on, is citizenship registered on a birth certificate?Traditional unionist (talk) 19:08, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

No it isn't, it just gives details of parents, place and date of birth.--Padraig (talk) 21:38, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Well then logically, one would have to renounce British citizenship if born in Northern Ireland and the birth was registered in Northern Ireland. Perhaps people don't know this and and are carrying duel nationality without knowing, but as I recall, the Northern Ireland Act didn't amend the Nationality Act.Traditional unionist (talk) 22:05, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect I was born in Northern Ireland and hold an Irish Passport an I am a Irish citizen, I never had or was I required to renounce anything.--Padraig (talk) 22:10, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

WHich could mean you're a duel British and Irish citizen and don't know.Traditional unionist (talk) 23:04, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

No it dosen't the GFA makes it clear that you can adopt either British, Irish or Duel citizenship, the choice is up to the individual.--Padraig (talk) 23:12, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

1st, im willing to bet you were born before 1998, 2nd I don't recall the NI Act amending the Nationality Act, which it would need to to make effect to that section of the agreement to become law.Traditional unionist (talk) 23:16, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I was born a long time before 1998 :), its immaterial what the Nationality Act says or not the GFA is a binding agreement :::::::::::between the two governments, the political parties of Northern Ireland and its population.--Padraig (talk) 23:28, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually it doesn't matter diddly squat wat the belfast agreement says. If it's not in the Northern Ireland Act of 1998, it's not law therefore it doesn't exist. The agreement was a legal framework that the Northern Ireland Act and the referendum in the Republic put legal power into.Traditional unionist (talk) 23:33, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

The election in the north and the referendum in the south was based on the content of the GFA, that is what people voted for, we can't now decide to ignore the parts that one side or the other don't particulary like, its the whole package or none.--Padraig (talk) 23:41, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

That is not the politial system we live under. Parliament is soverignb, not the people. If its not law, its not so.Traditional unionist (talk) 02:10, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Traditional unionist is correct the GFA is not binding, only the legislation used to implement it is. Sinn Féin took some government body to court on the ground of breach of GFA, but the judge through it out, as it is not a legal document (does anyone have a ref for this). Citizenship is ill defined in the UK, there was a discussion at Talk:Ruairí_Ó_Brádaigh regarding RoI citizenship for NI born people, which is an opt in system. (could someone post the edit that started this thred) Fasach Nua (talk) 13:18, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I must say this is something that has always bothered me. Born in the UK you must have British citizenship from birth and have a right to RoI citizenship. But the British one comes automatically, the RoI one is optional. Normal citizenship laws still must apply. People born in NI should technically be British citizens whether they like it or know it or not. Many probably don't apply for a passport, or do anything that requires citizenship identification but they must surely be British citizens in the eyes of the law plus whatever they choose on top. A baby cannot choose their citizenship. I know people say otherwise but I cannot see how it can possibly technically be otherwise, even if it isn't technically enforced. Ben W Bell talk 14:05, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Not so, on any census form you have the option of giving your nationality as British or Irish etc, there is no automatic adoption of Britishness at birth, that maybe the case in the rest of UK, but not Northern Ireland.--Padraig (talk) 14:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

There are more than just people born in NI who live in NI! The only definitive proof would be the Nationality Act mentioned above, I have never seen it never mind read it, so I dont know what the situation is, having EU citizenship makes the thing redundant in most instances, so I have never seen the need to investigate. Fasach Nua (talk) 14:23, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

If two Polish people have a child in Northern Ireland, do you say it is automatically British, with an option to be Polish? Someone needs to look at the act! Fasach Nua (talk) 14:27, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

If they're just Polish citizens, child will be British if one parent is a "permanent resident" (which means 5 years U.K. residence, for EEA member state citizens). Otherwise child can be registered as British once parents reach 5 year mark. Interestingly, child would be Irish if parents had lived in Northern Ireland (or ROI) for at least 3 years, but unlike in the U.K. there is no way to get Irish citizenship for the child if parents reach the 3 yr residence mark after child is born. JAJ (talk) 04:35, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

this is excellent on the subject.Traditional unionist (talk) 15:30, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Published by the Reform Movement in Dublin. Seems pretty clear to me. Born before 1983 in NI you are British. Ben W Bell talk 15:43, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I was born after 1983 in NI, and trust me, I never opted into British citizenship. Padraig, strange request, but it might be helpful if you called the Home Office and asked to renounce your British citizenship, see what they say!Traditional unionist (talk) 15:52, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

very informative, thankyou TU Fasach Nua (talk) 16:05, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Why would I have to renounce something I never was to begin with, I was Born in Ireland and hold and Irish passport.--Padraig (talk) 16:41, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Some things are worth doing just for the craic :=D Fasach Nua (talk) 16:48, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

As the source says, if you were born in Northern Ireland before 1983, you're a British citizen regardless of your knowledge or usage of that fact.Traditional unionist (talk) 16:55, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

The source also says If you are a British citizen or subject and don't want to be, what can you do?

You can either ignore the fact, and just use your Irish citizenship, or you can formally renounce British nationality at the British Embassy. Very few people do this.

So although you may believe we are all British, I don't.--Padraig (talk) 17:02, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, that says that you are a British citizen, but choose to ignore that fact. You are still a British citizen all the same though. WHich leads me back to the origional point, the annon is substantivly right, if not in the detail.Traditional unionist (talk) 17:08, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Could you post the a link to the post that started this thread please? On a seperate issue, as much fun as this discussion is, this page is about discussing the article, and how to improve it, can we keep it on topic? Fasach Nua (talk) 17:12, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

TU, a large minority of the population of Northern Ireland do not and never have regarded themselves as British, they are Irish, and no matter what the Unionists or British say that is the way it is. The Irish government accepts them as Irish citizens and give them the right to hold an Irish passport.--Padraig (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

The second part of your statement is not in question. But the law is the law regardless of what people believe, think or want. The fact is that you and everyone born in NI is a British citizen until this is renounced, as the annon pointed out. Ignoring this is perfectly acceptable, but does not alter the fact of the matter.Traditional unionist (talk) 17:43, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

My wife and I are citizens of one country, but our son was born in a different country. Our son is automatically a citizen of my home country — by law of that country. He is obviously also a citizen of the country he was born in. Interestingly, neither country actually recognizes the concept of "dual citizenship", but he has that status regardless. From each of those countries' perspective, either you are a citizen or you are not. They don't care if you hold additional passports, and don't make you renounce or surrender them. He may never actually even set foot in my home country in his life, and yet, he will be a citizen of that country all his life! This little anecdote may be irrelevant to this conversation, but from what I read, the concept of people born in N.I. automatically having UK citizenship, whether or not they want it and whether or not they actually get a UK passport someday, sounds perfectly legitimate to me. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:10, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

They also have Irish citizenship as well, a fact recognised in the GFA.--18:38, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

No, they don't. They are entitled to apply for it, but they don't automatically get it. Ben W Bell talk 21:53, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

If they want it. I'm entitled to it,but don't have it. You are in a different boat, you can renounce British citizenship if you want, but are by birthright a British citizen.Traditional unionist (talk) 18:57, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

If someone born in NI wishes to be a citizen of the republic of Ireland, then they can choose to take this citizenship, it is not automatically thrust apon them (Michael McGimpsey learnt this the hard way).

The GFA is irrelevant, it is as binding as a political parties election manifesto, but even if it was it gives people the right to define themselves as Irish, British or both British and Irish, how an individual defines themselves does not mean that is how the state legally defines them. Fasach Nua (talk) 19:07, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

this is the diff in question. I think we have found that the annon is in fact correct.Traditional unionist (talk) 21:27, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, the anon mentions the home office, but the reference you gave said to renounce citizenship at an embassy, which would seem to suggest this was in the remit of the Foreign and commonwealth office, but the rest seems correct Fasach Nua (talk) 21:39, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I suppose the difference would be someone resident in the UK (ie Northern Ireland) and someone living abroad (ie the Republic)Traditional unionist (talk) 21:47, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

British citizenship (including renunciation) is the responsibility of the Home Office. Applications for renunciation from a person in Northern Ireland would be made direct to the HO, outside the UK (eg ROI) would be sent to the British Embassy for forwarding to the Home Office. JAJ (talk) 09:48, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Of course if you choose to ignore the fact you have British citizenship that's perfectly fine. For most people this will be enough, and no one will ever bother about it. However the one time it could be an issue is if in the incredibly unlikely event that the UK introduced conscription, if you hadn't renounced the citizenship whether you acknowledge it or not you'd be eligible for the draft. Just ignoring the laws of the country you were born in won't protect you in that case, hideously unlikely as it is to occur. Ben W Bell talk 21:52, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

The edit is more or less correct. It should be expanded by explaining that anyone born in Northern Ireland is by default an Irish citizen (ref). If they wish to renounce their Irish citizenship, they may do so by applying in writing to the Minister for Foreign Affairs (ref). Some common-sense restrictions on renouncing Irish citizenship apply. The restrictions on jus soli described in the text for Irish citizenship similarly apply for British citizenship. The common-sense restrictions on renouncing Irish citizenships also apply for renouncing British citizenship.

(Ben, we've already been through the conscription debate on this island. If it didn't happen 1914-18 or 1939-45 then it's never going to happen.) --sony-youth^pléigh 23:18, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Citizenship General Information from sony-youth link above.

Article 2 of the Irish Constitution says:

“Every person born in the island of Ireland, its islands and its seas, has an entitlement and birthright to be part of the Irish nation”. That entitlement and birthright translates, in terms of citizenship laws, into an entitlement to be an Irish citizen2.

Every person born in the island of Ireland 3 is entitled to be an Irish citizen. If you were born anywhere in Ireland, it is open to you to choose to exercise that entitlement.

If you, as a person born in the island of Ireland do an act which only an Irish citizen is entitled to do (for instance, applying for an Irish passport), the law regards that as an exercise of your entitlement to be an Irish citizen, and you are accordingly an Irish citizen from birth. This also applies to persons not yet of full age (i.e. those still under 18 and not married) on whose behalf such an act is done.

If you were born in Ireland, the mere fact that you have not done (or if under age have not had done on your behalf) such an act does not on its own mean that you are not an Irish citizen. Nor does it mean that you are presumed to be a citizen of another country. --Padraig (talk) 00:03, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

From the same document

I was born and am living in Northern Ireland. I don’t hold any passport. Am I an Irish citizen?

You are if you want to be. As a person born in the island of Ireland, you have an entitlement to be an Irish citizen. You don’t have to obtain an Irish passport in order to be an Irish citizen (though having an Irish passport is of course a convenient way of showing that you are an Irish citizen).

I was born and am living in Northern Ireland. I hold a UK passport. Am I an Irish citizen?

You are if you want to be. As a person born in the island of Ireland, you have an entitlement to be an Irish citizen. That entitlement holds even if you have obtained a UK passport. You don’t have to obtain an Irish passport in order to be an Irish citizen (though having an Irish passport is of course a convenient way of showing that you are an Irish citizen). As far as Irish law is concerned, there is no difficulty about holding Irish citizenship and at the same time citizenship of another State such as the United Kingdom.--Padraig (talk) 00:09, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Those quotations are badly worded, but don't reveal anything particularly new, we seem to have arrived at what the situation actually is.Traditional unionist (talk) 00:14, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

The Quotations are taken from the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service, leaflet, so that you think its badly worded is neither nor there, it is clear that anyone in Northern Ireland is entitled to Irish Citizenship.--Padraig (talk) 00:22, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes - that everybody born in Northern Ireland is an Irish citizen in exactly the same way as a person born in the Republic unless they renounce it (that includes you, Trad.). And that everybody born in Northern Ireland is a British citizen in exactly the same way as a person born on Great Britain unless they renounce it (that includes you, Padraig). --sony-youth^pléigh 00:27, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

[3] 7-1 would suggest otherwise Fasach Nua (talk) 00:36, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I have no evidence, but strongly suspect that has since been amended,Traditional unionist (talk) 00:39, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I already hold a Irish Passport, and have done for a long time.--Padraig (talk) 00:42, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Which isn't the point. The point is that you are presently, and have been since birth, legally a British citizen.Traditional unionist (talk) 00:48, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Padraig, I mean renounce your British citizenship otherwise you are still a British citizen in exactly the same way as a person born on Great Britain - or just ignore it as it makes no difference. (Just as Trad would have to renounce his Irish citizenship or still be an Irish citizen in exactly the same way as a person born in the Republic - or just ignore it as it makes no difference.) --sony-youth^pléigh 00:59, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I reckon the only difference is that Padraig has been a British citizen from birth, while I have been an Irish citizen from 1998. Which is a stupid way to run your citizenship laws (even after the amending referendum), but thats neither here nor there.Traditional unionist (talk) 01:03, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

TU that predates 1998, I think it dates to the Adoption of the Irish Constitution in the south, actually my brother-inlaw is a staunch Unionist, born in Belfast and he holds a Irish Passport.--Padraig (talk) 01:10, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Of course he does, its daft not to hold all passports you're entitled to regardless of how stupid the rules are in whatever jurisdiction. Anyway, the above source indicates it doesn't predate 1998.Traditional unionist (talk) 01:35, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I forgot to add he dosen't hold a British passport, and the information I posted above comes from Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2001 which updates the previous act.--Padraig (talk) 01:47, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

You seem to be under the delusion that holding Irish citizenship precludes you from holding any other nationality. The references you are using to refer to Irish citizenship only. It does not affect the application of any other citizenship. The fact is that practically everyone in NI holds dual British/Irish citizenship. The only ones that don't are the ones that have renounce one or the other. josh (talk) 02:27, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Which is what the GFA states that anyone born in Northern Ireland can hold either British, Irish or duel citizenship, it is apersonal choice.--Padraig (talk) 02:40, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes it is a personal choice, but you are still legally a British citizen until you exercise your personal choice formally and renounce it. You can happily decide I'm not a British citizen, or I'm not an Irish citizen and that is your choice and up to you, but legally you still will be unless you formally renounce it. It's not an issue, not likely to be an issue, and holds practically no consequence whether you do or not, but on the papers of the legal states you are still that citizen until you say otherwise. I can only see a couple of real advantages to holding a British passport over an Irish one (or as well), and that's mainly evacuation should you find yourself in a warzone, the UK has more capacity to airlift or sealift its citizens out of there (see Lebanon or the like), but the chances of that are slim anyway. You can self identify as whatever you want, no one can take that away from you.Ben W Bell talk 14:23, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

You never know Ben. It's always best to hold all passports you're entitled to just in case. A friend of mine holds 3.Traditional unionist (talk) 15:31, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh yes. I'm entitled to four different ones, though currently only have 1. Never seen a great reason to have one other than my British one. I'm not above applying for one if I think I'll get into a situation where I think it would be useful though. Am working towards entitlement of a fifth one as we speak as well, one I will apply for. Ben W Bell talk 19:24, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Which means that everyone in NI is a duel citizen until they choose renounce to either Irish or British citizenship. josh (talk) 03:02, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, like I keep saying, the Belfast Agreement is not a binding legal document. If the law wasn't changed it's not binding.Traditional unionist (talk) 12:15, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

"Duel citizenship" - Freud would have a field-day. I've collected the relvants acts from the Dublin side: Constitution of the Irish Free State Act 1922, Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act, 1935, 1956, 2001 (1986, 1994 are irrevelant from our persepctive).

First for jus soli:

• The post-2001 scenario seems to be that everyone has dual citizenship and can renounce one or the other if they wish, and that this is retrospective as far back as Fionn mac Cumhaill but with Irish citizenship "from birth" being only for those born post-2001. Those born pre-2001 are "entitled to be an Irish citizen" without the "presumption that the person is not an Irish citizen" until they do "any act which only an Irish citizen is entitled to do" whereupon they become an Irish citizen "from birth" (relevant sections of the 2001 act are here).
• Before then, from Fasach's 1956 ref above, a person born in the six counties after independence had the option on Irish citizenship only upon making a declaration (relevant section is here).
• From 1935 to 1956, a person born in the six counties after independence was not an Irish citizens by jus soli. However, for one month after independence, Northern Ireland was a part of the Irish Free State. Those born in Northern Ireland during that time were born in part of the Free State and thus jus soli applies to them (relevant section of the 1935 act is here).
• Anybody who was alive and residing in Ireland (including Northern Ireland) at independence is/was an Irish citizen. From independence to 1935 these were the only people, north or south, who were Irish citizens as no other citizenship law except for the Free State constitution existed (see article 3 here).

Now for descent:

This is a bit mad ... Since everyone living in Northern Ireland at the turn of 1922/23 was in law an Irish citizen (see article 3 here), presumably this would have had a knock on effect for their children - and their children's children - under the 1935, 1956, 1986, 1994 and 2001 acts.

The 1935 act explicitly lists registering a birth at with the Northern Ireland births register as all that was necessary to be a "natural-born citizens of Saorstát Eireann" if a person was born to a father who is an Irish citizen. Since virtually every male in Northern Ireland who was over 12 years of age in 1935 was an Irish citizen owing to the Free State constitution and that month in 1922/23, that would make basically everyone in Northern Ireland born between post-independence an Irish citizen under the 1935 act by reason of descent. This would have a knock on effect for the 1958 act ("Every person is an Irish citizen if his father or mother was an Irish citizen at the time of that person's birth ...", from here) and subsequent acts. The Irish nationality law article says that the 1986 act put a limit on citizenship by descent, capping it at four generations from jus soli but I can't see where in the act. --sony-youth^pléigh 17:24, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

"Some" again

Which NI sports teams do not use the UB? I feel sure we have discussed this before, but what the hell, bandwidth is free...--John (talk) 01:21, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I do not believe there are any teams that represent Northern Ireland exclusively that do not use the Ulster Banner. There are several all-Ireland teams that use alternate flags (rugby, cricket, field hockey, etc.) Therefore, I think the confusion about the word "some" depends on how you read that disclaimer in the infobox. Only "some" sports involving Northern Ireland athletes use the Ulster Banner. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 01:28, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

But as far as I know too, all teams representing Northern Ireland (the subject of the article) do, so in the context of the flag note, having 'some' seems wrong. --John (talk) 03:31, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

John in cases of say for example Snooker tourments where you may have a number from Northern Ireland players playing but not as a team but individual competitors playing against each other and players from other countries. That is why some sports is used in the text, there are other sports that play as a team that don't use the UB--Padraig (talk) 05:13, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

That's understood. I don't know much about snooker; is there a Northern Ireland team that plays other countries' teams, like in football? If there was, and it (verifiably) didn't use the UB then I could go with the wording we have. --John (talk) 06:30, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Use of flags in sport in Northern Ireland.--Padraig (talk) 14:40, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

John is owned!--Vintagekits (talk) 15:04, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Taunting aside, I think John is correct. Can anybody name a single sport where Northern Ireland is distinctly represented apart from the Republic of Ireland, England, Scotland, and/or Wales where the Ulster Banner is not used? I'm not talking about all-Ireland representation, or "GBR" representation (Olympics etc.), but specifically that situation I describe. Where NI and ROI have distinct representation, and/or the four constituent countries are uniquely identified, the Ulster Banner is universally used for NI, from what I have seen. Padraig's reference agrees with this, mostly pointing out that the large majority of sports use all-Ireland representation. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 16:55, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Andrwsc, the reason some was initialy added was that some editors where adding the UB to infoboxes of northern Ireland based sportpeople using the excuse that it stated in this infobox that it was used in sport. We have already had this discussion where it was agreed the the inclusion of some would prevent this and resulting edit wars on other articles, now the edit wars over the UB have stopped, so why drag the issue up again.--Padraig (talk) 17:09, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

So you would prefer to make the infobox inaccurate in order to make your life a bit easier. josh (talk) 17:29, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

It is not inacurate, the UB is only used in the Commonwealth games and International football to represent the teams.--Padraig (talk) 17:38, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Not "only". The netball team uses it in World Championships outside the Commonwealth Games, and various individual athletes in sports that distinguish NI athletes from ROI, English, Scottish, and Welsh athletes also use it. Golf is the most visible example of that. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 17:43, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Got a ref for its use in netball and golf.--Padraig (talk) 18:11, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

For netball, the NI netball association does not have a website yet. The International Federation of Netball Associations website doesn't use flags. The ROI netball website (here) clearly states that there are distinct NI and ROI teams, and this is one sport that does not compete on an all-Ireland basis:

Netball Ireland first applied for full membership to the International Federation of Netball Associations in 1974. Some delay in processing the application ensued, mostly due to the fact that the netball representatives from Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland were engaged in preliminary discussions regarding the feasibility of merging the two Associations. However, the terms were difficult and it was felt that more people could be included if the two Associations were to hold onto their own identity.

I did find an "unofficial" site here that shows the UB for NI netball. I don't think there are going to be too many sources available to me where I live for a fringe sport in a fringe country....

As for golf, I've provided those sources several times already and I'm not going to waste time repeating them again here. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:31, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The netball site is an not an offical site and not been updated since 2005, as for Golf IIRC you provided a link to some American news/sport site and said they used it in broadcasts of golf events, hardly reliable.--Padraig (talk) 18:46, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The wording in the infobox says "in an unofficial manner", so what is wrong with unofficial websites? I knew you would jump all over that! And how are ESPN, Sports Illustrated, the Professional Golfers' Association, etc. "hardly reliable"? — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 19:04, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The problem, as John pointed out, is that the statement isn't correctly precise as written. It could use some word-smithing to express the concept properly. I defer to someone who is strong at writing brilliant prose to figure out how to do that... — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 17:32, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

And the current ref, as well as not backing up the current wording, gives: "FOO: Union Jack/N Ireland flag/Other[UEFA/FIFA]". What "other" flag is ever used in football, besides the Ulster Banner (or the "N Ireland flag" as Padraig's ref calls it)? --John (talk) 18:51, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I was quite amused to see it called the "N Ireland flag" in that document, considering all the disruption caused by renaming Image:Flag of Northern Ireland.svg to Image:Ulster banner.svg on Commons! I have yet to see anything outside Wikipedia that calls it an "Ulster Banner". — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 19:04, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[4] --Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 19:13, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

If Padraig was consistent, he'd jump all over that for being an unreliable reference... But I thank you for pointing that out. It had seemed to me that the term was a Wikipedia invention, so now I've learned something new. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 19:21, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Read The Union flag and flags of the United Kingdom p.7/8 that makes the issue very clear, the Ulster Banner is the correct name, also sometimes mistakenly refered to as the Ulster flag, but at no time was it ever refered to as the flag of Northern Ireland.--Padraig (talk) 19:42, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Typical obfuscation. Nowhere in that entire document is the phrase "Ulster Banner" used, so why bring that reference into this discussion? The phrase "Ulster flag" (note the lower-case "f") is used once, so perhaps that's the term we should use. But why Ulster Banner? — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 20:03, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The unofficial netball website is hardly WP:RS looks like a member of the team made it up I could do one like that in 10 minutes and put the stars and stripes on it. BigDunc (talk) 19:23, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

We have been through this all before, why start it all up again? Now what happened to WP:V, and as mentioned above by Dunc WP:RS? --Domer48 (talk) 19:45, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say that netball site was a great source... But I can't find anything either that says they don't use that flag. My position remains that I have yet to see any counter-example that refutes this statement: The "N Ireland flag" is used to identify teams from N.I. and individual competitors from N.I. in all sports and games in which Northern Ireland is distinctly represented separately from the Republic of Ireland and/or England, Scotland and Wales in international competition. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 20:03, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) I read that as saying "the sources do not agree with my POV on the subject, so I'll rubbish the sources". Correct me if I'm wrong. --John (talk) 19:47, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Here are 3 sports I found on a quick search of NI sport teams snooker and billiards and Karate and ten pin bowling so "some" seems correct. BigDunc (talk) 19:48, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Well done for finding those websites; however they are not germane to this discussion which concerns the flag teams representing Northern Ireland use in international competitions. --John (talk) 19:52, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Of course they are relevant they are the NI governing bodies of the respective sports.BigDunc (talk) 20:05, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The Irish FA] doesn't use the NI flag either. Nither does the FA, RFU or ECB use the English flag. We are discussing the representive teams not the governing bodies. In order to claim that only some representive teams use the flag you have to find a ref that proves that. It is imposible to prove that all teams use the UB. No matter how many teams are produced you could say "well is that all of them". The ref currently used on the page proves that all known NI teams use the UB. This has to be contridicted in order for the word some to be justified. josh (talk) 20:24, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Well you have failed to provide and ref or links, to show its use outside of the commonwealth games and international football, so the some is justified in the text.--Padraig (talk) 19:57, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

References and links have been provided; you just choose to disregard them. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 20:03, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Also, it should be mentioned, that there are very few sports and games in which N.I. is distinctly represented in international competition, with association football, Commonwealth Games teams, and golf being the most obvious. After that, it's pretty much just fringe sports, I think. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 20:06, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

So will we change some to very few then.--Padraig (talk) 20:14, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

"All" says the same thing in fewer words. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 20:29, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

If your talking about the netball ref it is hardly WP:RS--BigDunc (talk) 20:07, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I didn't ignore them, the netball one links to a fansite that deals mainly with school competitions, what links have you provided for golf.--Padraig (talk) 20:12, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

A few minutes on Google gives us a few:

• SI.com (CNN owned website) — leaderboard from 2007 Arnold Palmer invitational
• United States Golf Association — 2007 US Open leaderboard
• PGA Tour — profile of Darren Clarke
• ESPN.com — another Clarke profile

Many, many links like these are trivial to find. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 20:29, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

One leaderboard showing the UB for one golfer, and two profiles on commerial sites for the same person. The wikipedia link mean nothing, where is a source that a Northern Ireland golfing team played and used the UB.--Padraig (talk) 20:54, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

And...? What is your point? My point is that the flag is frequently used to identify individual golfers from Northern Ireland, and no other flag is used. Those references support that point. You seem to consistently think that unless there is an official government declaration stating "X", then "X" cannot be written in Wikipedia. At no point am I claiming that there is any "official" policy about flags and golfers; I am merely pointing out multiple independent sources that reflect common practice. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 21:53, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The book chapter on the CAIN website is about as solid a source as you will find. According to it angling, badminton, basketball, bowling and one of the cycling associations compete as "Northern Ireland" but do not use the Ulster Banner. In fact from that document only boxing, soccer and the second cycling association use the Ulster Banner in any context. "Some" therefore seems an understatement. Really it should be "a minority". --sony-youth^pléigh 20:13, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Presumably then you reckon boxing, football and cycling constitute minority sports when compared to the overwhelming popularity of angling, badminton, basketball and bowling (or did you mean bowls?) as competitive sports in the context of Northern Ireland? In all seriousness, can you provide a reference for these "sports" verifiably having international teams which play as "Northern Ireland" yet do not use the UB? --John (talk) 20:31, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

That is not what Sony said and you know it, he is sying that a minority of NI teams use the UB. BigDunc (talk) 20:42, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for translating what he is sying for me, BigDunc. What about Subbuteo? Perhaps you're too young to remember the Undertones' 1980 single "My Perfect Cousin", the cover of which featured a Subbuteo figure in the colours of the band's hometown team, Derry City F.C. That has to count for something, surely. --John (talk) 20:47, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Dont be so patronising john your comments are not helpful. BigDunc (talk) 20:52, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Golfers in my opinion do not represnt their countries they are playing as individuals it is not a team game on the PGA tour or US open.BigDunc (talk) 20:48, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Your opinions are noted, bigdunc. What would be even more helpful than your unsubstantiated opinion would be a verifiable source that backs up the wording the article currently contains. This, so far, I have not seen. --John (talk) 20:57, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

And I have not seen any ref that states that the UB is used by every NI sports team. If it is not used by all then some is correct. BigDunc (talk) 21:00, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

John, I didn't know that I needed translating. As Dunc explained, the contested text is "such as some sports teams". The reference is the book chapter on the CAIN website that Padraig references above (here). It lists the context in which sports associations field teams and the flags that they use. According to it the angling, badminton, basketball, bowling and one of the cycling associations compete as "Northern Ireland" but do not use the Ulster Banner and that only the boxing, soccer and the second cycling associations use the Ulster Banner in any context. "Some" therefore seems an understatement. Really it should be "a minority".

(Yes, I meant lawn bowls, which is an outdoor variant of bowling. I presume that you thought that bowling always meant ten-pin bowling?) --sony-youth^pléigh 21:05, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Sony. I don't think you needed translating, that was BigDunc's contention. I had already read the reference Padraig provided (and indeed referred to it myself above). Interesting point of view. However it seems to be based on a survey (inherently unreliable) and to date from the bad old days of 1995. I request a more up-to-date source which states authoritatively that there are (in 2008) sports teams representing Northern Ireland which do not use the Ulster Banner. I'll leave my opinion that angling is not even remotely a sport aside; however, I would certainly ask that you not include tiny minority sports in this, which was the intention of my Subbuteo comment above. Sorry if that was not clear. --John (talk) 21:15, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

John if you want to dismiss that source, then provide sources to contradict it that show they do use the UB.--Padraig (talk) 21:20, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

John, a survey, far from being inherently unreliable, is the perfect method for collecting data of this kind: in which the population is of a small and known size (sports associations in Northern Ireland), in which the data to be collected are two perfectly quantifiable variable (in this case of the nominal sort: yes or not to competing as "Northern Ireland", and what flags do they compete under), and the purpose is to analyze the data using the most basic of descriptive statistics (i.e. who competes where and under what flag). In fact, using any other method would be insane or just plain stupid. As for being from 1995, that's only 13 years ago. For someone who can remember Subbuteo and the Untertones, surely it's not "soooo 20th century"? For the purpose of the supporting "some" in the text, it as solid as they come ... unless you're seriously suggesting that all of those associations suddenly switched to using the Ulster Banner in the intervening years?? --sony-youth^pléigh 22:12, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The CAIN document isn't as clear as it ought to be, and I can't find sources to back up some of those claims. I have no idea about angling! (This is a sport?!?) As for the others, badminton, basketball, bowls and cycling are all Commonwealth Games sports, and so NIR would apply in that context (of course). Outside of the C.G., I don't think N.I. competes as a distinct team internationally, which would appear to contradict Sony's conclusion from the CAIN document. All these sports seem to have all-Ireland representation:

• According to the Badminton World Federation, there is no Northern Ireland association. Badminton Ireland link seems to imply it has all-Ireland representation internationally.
• Accoding to FIBA, there is no Northern Ireland basketball association. According to Basketball Ireland (link) the Association has responsibility for the promotion, development and administration of all basketball activities in Ireland and Northern Ireland.
• For lawn bowls, information is difficult to find for international competition. There is a Northern Ireland Bowling Association (link), but they don't seem to compete internationally. There is a Irish Bowling Association (link) which is a member of the British Isles Bowls Council (link) and competes in a "British Isles" tournament. I presume it is an all-Ireland team because they seem to compete under St. Patrick's Saltire per the BIBC website. I also found a British Isles Indoor Bowls Council (BIIBC) website here that shows the "N Ireland flag" for The Association of Irish Indoor Bowls. Beyond the home countries, I found a World Bowls webiste (link) that shows the Irish Bowling Association as a member, again with the Saltire, implying all-Ireland.
• For cycling, all the results I found on the Union Cycliste Internationale website (link) show "GBR" or "IRL" for individual cyclists, so I don't know where "NIR" would be used for cycling outside of the Commonwealth Games.

I also looked up some of the other team sports that are competed at the Commonwealth Games, such as water polo and rowing. FINA governs water polo and uses GBR and IRL. FISA governs rowing and does the same. Therefore, the conclusion to be drawn is that the "N Ireland flag" is used to identify teams from N.I. and individual competitors from N.I. in all sports and games in which Northern Ireland is distinctly represented separately from the Republic of Ireland and/or England, Scotland and Wales in international competition. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 21:48, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

In conclusion?,you mean in your opinion, yet have failed to prove it.--Padraig (talk) 22:03, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

What part of that statement has not been proven? Which sport uses another flag? — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 22:06, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Andrwsc, the question asked in section 3.1.3 (International Competition) is whether the associations fielded teams as "Northern Ireland". Sections 3.2.1 (Flags) asked the associations what flags they fielded teams under. Apart from not being original research, this is clearly a far more accurate method for knowing what teams compete under what flag as opposed to reading this that or the other based on what you see or do not see on some website or another. The association may be all-Ireland or all-UK, but the team fielded is Northern Ireland (this is a complexity of the British and Irish situation). Where do you get your quote from (or is it a quote? - "the 'N Ireland flag' is used to identify teams ...") or is this based on your original research as opposed to the reputable published secondary source that says otherwise?

I don't think there is anything I have said that is inconsistent with section 3.1.3. That is, the only team sports that NIR competes in distinctly from IRL/ENG/SCO/WAL internationally outside of the Commonwealth Games (the "World/Olympic" column) is football ("FOO" in Table 6) and netball (not in their survey). Within the Commonwealth Games, NIR competes distinctly from ENG/SCO/WAL in every event (some of these are shown as "N Ireland" in the "C'wealth/Home Int" column of Table 6; not all Table 6 sports are Commonwealth Games sports, and not all Commonwealth Games sports made their survey.) As for the quote, that is mine, but it's not something I'm suggesting go into the article as written with a reference after it! It is intended for communication on this talk page.

You really want to say that all teams form Northern Ireland compete under the Ulster Banner, don't you? And remove all mention of the contrary? It is not true that they do. A reputable published source says that some do, while others do not. Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words. --sony-youth^pléigh 23:48, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

No, not really. I just don't want to hide the fact that multiple, reputable media and sporting organizations use the "N Ireland flag" to identify Northern Ireland competitors. I'm not trying to promote the flag for political reasons; in fact, as I've stated before, I think it affords us an excellent opportunity on Wikipedia to point out the flaws in that approach. But ignoring the situation is not a neutral point of view. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 00:41, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Also, don't assume that the Ulster Banner is the correct flag in the context of the Commonwealth Games. From the CAIN document again: "In basketball, for example, the Tricolour is flown at world level and for events staged in locations such as West Belfast; the Union Jack is used for home international fixtures; and the Ulster provincial flag for commonwealth championships."

Basketball was not a Commonwealth Games sport until 2006 (and netball not until 1998), so the CAIN document predates that. Outside of the Commonwealth Games, N.I. basketball players would have to compete internationally for one of the two FIBA sanctioned teams: GBR or IRL. And I am certain that the "N Ireland flag" is flown at the Commonwealth Games, as the photo of this smiling guy would clearly show.

We are not discussing what flag is flown at the Commonwealth Games or what flag the man in that picture is carrying. The the question is whether "all", "some", or "none" sports teams from Northern Ireland compete under the Ulster Banner. The published verifable source plainly indicates that "some" do while others do not (including at Commonwealth level). --sony-youth^pléigh 23:48, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

If I may reply to your question on behalf of Padraig ("What part of that statement has not been proven?") No part needs to be "proven", it needs to be sourced. --sony-youth^pléigh 22:12, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I guess this will remain a problem. I think it will be virtually impossible to find any peer-reviewed journal, textbook, etc. that describes textually what major media organizations use on their contemporary websites and broadcast productions with respect to the "N Ireland flag". I think the best we can do is list the set of links of reputable websites in support of any statement that those organizations use the flag. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 23:09, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Media organisations, what have they got to do with this issue, I wouldn't regard them as a reliable source on any subject, find sources from the sports organisations themselves to support your claim.--Padraig (talk) 23:24, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

If the statement that needs a reliable source is about what media organizations display on their websites or broadcasts, what sporting organization would have authority over that? If the statement is as specific as "the PGA uses the "N Ireland flag" to identify golfers from Northern Ireland on it's website", then surely a link to that identified website is a sufficient source. It seems like you want an indirect statement from somebody else that says what the PGA does, instead of a direct link that demonstrates what the PGA does. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 23:46, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

This is not a problem, Andrwsc. The document we are discussing here is a published textbook (Sugden, J. et al (ed.s), 1995, Sport and Community Relations in Northern Ireland, Centre for the Study of Conflict, University of Ulster, ISBN 1859230911). It says quite plainly that some teams representing Northern Ireland are fielded under flags other than the Ulster Banner. If major media outlets make the mistake of thinking that all teams representing Northern Ireland compete under the Ulster Banner then that is not our concern - except to not allow Wikipedia to make the same mistake. --sony-youth^pléigh 23:48, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I do not see how that book says "quite plainly that some teams representing Northern Ireland are fielded under flags other than the Ulster Banner". It's not plain to me at all. Can you point out the specific sentences where you draw that conclusion? If you are referring to the basketball-specific quote (In basketball, for example, the Tricolour is flown at world level and for events staged in locations such as West Belfast; the Union Jack is used for home international fixtures; and the Ulster provincial flag for commonwealth championships.), then I interpret it as follows: Table 6 says that teams are all-Ireland at the "World/Olympic" level and N. Ireland at the "C'wealth/Home Int" level. We know that FIBA recognizes an all-Ireland team (IRL) that uses the tricolour internationally. This is consistent with the first clause of the sentence. As for the second clause ("home international fixtures"), I presume this is a purely amateur home nations thing, as I can't find any other evidence of a Northern Ireland representative basketball team playing any other nation outside the UK. Some might say this is not really "international" in the same sense as FIBA's scope. I guess the bottom line for me is that I think this book is actually pretty piss-poor, as it is not clear at all what the real situation is. It doesn't mention any of the actual organisations they surveyed, nor did they identify any of the competitions where N.I. competes internationally. I do not believe this source ought to be held up on a pedestal as the definitive source on this issue. Granted, it's the only academic publication we have on this topic, but it is vague and outdated.

My point about "major media outlets" is that I think Wikipedia ought to document this common practice — and describe why that is incorrect. A common theme that I have been promoting is that I think the "N Ireland flag" is frequently enough shown by multiple reputible organizations that we should not pretend on Wikipedia that it doesn't exist. We should document what they do, and explain the inaccuracy of their actions. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 00:41, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) And would you say that the Northern Ireland situation has changed in any way since 1995? With Andrwsc, I'd rather use contemporary sources than a survey quoted in a book from 13 years ago as guides to the current situation. --John (talk) 00:20, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

What changes have there been in sport in Northern Ireland in that time, the only major change I know of is the GAA dropping it ban on members of the PSNI from being members and letting football to be played in Croke Park, so unless you can point to any others then the information in that book is as relevent today as it was then. In reply to Andrwsc point it is not WP role to use mis-present flags just because of misconceptions by media organisations that are to lazy to research facts. The use of the UB in sport is limited to a small number of sport organisations in a international context that is fact.--Padraig (talk) 00:59, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

• I'm not suggesting we mis-represent the usage of the flag; I am suggesting we document the existing mis-representation.
• You say that usage is "limited to a small number of sport organisations in a international context". I say that the flag is used for the large majority of instances where Northern Ireland competes distinctly apart from the rest of the UK and/or the rest of Ireland; it just happens that there are very few sports and/or multi-sport events where Northern Ireland doesn't compete as part of an all-Ireland team or as part of a GBR team. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 01:14, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Which is why the word some is used because it is not used all occassion and not by all sports.--Padraig (talk) 01:36, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Can't be bothered reading all of this, but I did notice the other the other that competitors competing under the name Northern Ireland use the St Patrick's flag in World's Strongest Man of all things. Derry Boi (talk) 01:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

John, do I think that the Ulster Banner has become any less contentious since 1995? No. Do you? Really? We know what the situation was in 1995. If you think attitudes to the Ulster Banner have changed so dramatically since then, produce a source.

Andrwsc, I'm replying down here to your comments above. RE: discussing the 'error in their ways' of media outlets using the Ulster Banner in inappropriate ways - wonderful, but the info box is not the place for that kind of discussion.

RE: whether you think the books chapter is "piss poor" or not, frankly it beats inferring this that or the other from the graphic design of one website or another. The simple fact is that it's a published source from a reputable organisation and we have absolutely no reason to doubt it's veracity. As for how plain it is, table 6 lists that the angling, badminton, basketball, bowls and one of the cycling associations field teams specifically for Northern Ireland (as distinct from UK/ENG/SCO/WAL/IRE/ROI or anywhere else). Table 7 shows the responses of these associations when asked to identify the flag or flags used by their sport for the purposes of international competition. None of these association listed the Ulster Banner despite fielding specifically Northern Ireland teams for commonwealth and home nations competitions. We don't need a directly quotable piece of prose to satisfy Wikipedia:Verifiability. It's plain just from reading the source. Nothing is being inferred or deduced.

As for your "read it this way" of the basketball quote, really Andrwsc, it's quite simple. Northern Ireland fields a basketball team. Depending on circumstance it competes under the tricolor, union jack or ulster flag. The only teams mentioned that participate under the Ulster Banner are the soccer, boxing and one of the cycling associations. --sony-youth^pléigh 01:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Look, I'm not really concerned about the use of "some" or "all" in the infobox. "Some" is just as much a weasal word as "all" (probably more so, since it is imprecise with respect to the quantity), but at least we can tag a reference to it. However, I think "most" is a more accurate word in this situation. My participation in this spirited debate was to serve as a counter-point to the attempt by some editors to marginalize the "N Ireland flag" through comments that it is "used by very few sports". There is evidence that it is used in most every context in which Northern Ireland is represented independently — but as I've pointed out, there are few situations where that happens! The full situation must be described if any of these comments are to be put in the article.

With respect to the CAIN document, I am baffled how you reach the conclusion that "Northern Ireland fields a basketball team. Depending on circumstance it competes under the tricolor, union jack or ulster flag." The report says no such thing!! Section 3.1.3 describes the international and/or regional team(s) which their top sportsmen and women were eligible to compete for. That does not imply a single team — note that it says "team(s)" (possibly plural). For basketball, there is no "Northern Ireland national basketball team" that could ever compete in Eurobasket, for example. There is an all-Ireland team that competes under the tricolour, so presumably that's what the CAIN document refers to by showing "Ireland" in Table 6 and listing the tricolour in Table 7. Next, Table 6 does not distinguish between Commonwealth participation and home nations participation, lumping them together as one. We can't draw conclusions from that about what kind of team(s) competed where, especially in 1995, when basketball was not a Commonwealth Games sport. I can tell you that prior to the 2006 Commonwealth Games (when basketball was first introduced), there was a European qualifying round in which England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey, Malta, Cyprus, and Gibraltar competed. I haven't yet found results for that, but we know that England and Scotland qualified on the men's side and England and Malta qualified for the women's tournament. Presumably, had Northern Ireland qualified, they would have marched behind the guy carrying the "N Ireland flag" in that BBC photograph. As for home nations competitions, you might say that isn't really "international" anyway, so the Union Flag would apply to any of those competitions. That might or might not be the same team as competed in the Commonwealth qualifier, but the CAIN document doesn't help answer that question. Finally, Table 6 has "Provincial/Regional" listed as a type of "International Competition", I suppose because competition between a UK territory and the Republic of Ireland is international. Anyway, I had thought that Northern Ireland (6 counties) doesn't compete in those types of tournaments, but Ulster (9 counties) does — and Table 6 says "Ulster" for that column. That would explain the "Ulster Provincial" flag reference in Table 7. The bottom line is that the CAIN document is very sparse on details, so it is easy to draw incorrect conclusions through careless reading and interpretation. If any part of this document is used as a reference, we cannot infer any meaning from those tables, but only quote passages directly. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:41, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Lastly, you claim that "the only teams mentioned that participate under the Ulster Banner are the soccer, boxing and one of the cycling associations." I hope you are not suggesting that the swimmers, track & field athletes, badminton players, boxers, cyclists, gymnasts, lawn bowlers, shooters, squash players, table tennis players, and triathletes that the Commonwealth Games Council for Northern Ireland sent to Melbourne for the 2006 Games didn't participate under that flag! That would clearly be another incorrect conclusion to draw from the CAIN source. I am certain that when David Beattie won his silver medal in trap shooting, and when the men's lawn bowls team won their silver medal, that the "N Ireland flag" was hoisted along with the flags of the gold and bronze medal winners. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:41, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm saying nothing, the verifiable source is doing all the talking. The source lists various sports associations that supply players to compete on behalf of Northern Ireland at "commonwealth/home nations internationals". It further reports what those association said were the flag or flags used by their sport for the purpose of international competition. Some of those associations listed the Norhtern Ireland flag as being used to represent their sport at internatinoal level. However, most of those surveyed reported using a flag other than the Ulster Banner for the purpose of international competition.

It is not the case that only those associations that are organized on an all-Ireland or all-UK used flags other than the Ulster Banner. Nor is it the case that only those associations that supply players in compete in competitions on behalf of Northern Ireland at events other than "commonwealth/home nations internationals" that report their sport as using the Ulster Banner. Boxing, for example, is organized on an all-Ireland basis and only supplies sportsmen and women for Northern Ireland for "commonwealth/home nations internationals" only. It uses the Ulster Banner for the purpose of international competition. The second cycling association is organized on a UK basis and only supplies players to compete on behalf of Northern Ireland only for "commonwealth/home nations internationals". It reports uses the Ulster Banner for international competition.

The angling, badminton, basketball, bowling and one of the cycling associations report flags other than the Ulster Banner being used in their sport for the purpose of international competition despite listing Northern Ireland as being a team that they supply sportsmen and women to (competing at "commonwealth/home nations internationals" in each of their cases). About basketball, the source explicitly says "the Ulster provincial flag [is flown] for commonwealth championships."

If you refute this please provide a source. If I have made an error in reading, please explain where. --sony-youth^pléigh 20:49, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't refute anything you said in these comments, because here you are not (mis)interpreting what is written in that document. Yesterday, you wrote Northern Ireland fields a basketball team. Depending on circumstance it competes under the tricolor, union jack or ulster flag, and that is what I refuted. Nowhere in the document did it make that claim, and for good reason — it isn't true. Do you still believe that statement? — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 00:33, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) I think you are reading too much into your one source here. I think too that Andrwsc has made some compelling arguments and done some good research to provide (more recent) good sources which disagree with your 1995 one. The world of competitive sport has indeed changed significantly in the last 13 years and we should definitely not be relying on such an old source to comment on the contemporary status quo. I could probably live with "most" in the infobox too. Finally, can we rule out angling in this debate? I really don't think it is a sport, more of a pastime. If we're going to debate angling then we almost may as well bring Subbuteo into it too. We should stick to the major sports which attract the most participation and spectatorship, in my opinion. --John (talk) 23:31, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Where am I reading too much? It's black and white. What is convincing about Andrwsc's arguments? To me, with due respect, they sound like (poor quality) original research?

(Also, on a note of humour, don't put down angling. Please, there's not many events that Ireland has a world champion in - from Irish Times in 2006: "Ireland has a new World Cup champion. Philip Rooney, from Rossinver in Co Leitrim, took the crown after five days of competitive angling at the World Cup Trout Fly Angling Championships at Lough Mask, Ballinrobe, Co Mayo, the weekend before last." More seriously, it is considered a sport by the UK government and received £352,112 in lottery funding in 2005 in Northern Ireland alone. See here.) --sony-youth^pléigh 00:20, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Gosh! One learns something new every day here. The idea of competitively catching fish, for your country, seems ludicrous to me but I hear what you are saying. On a more serious note, I would seriously like to see more up-to-date research on who uses which flag. There are a number of flaws in the report you're quoting, and it's more than possible that some sports which previously competed as NI (with or without a flag) now operate on an all-Ireland basis. I would genuinely be very interested to know, and it'd be surprising if there weren't good refs on the subject. Now, as for Subbuteo...--John (talk) 00:26, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I had a sociology lecturer who always reverted to the "martians landing on earth" analogy: if martians landed on earth and saw men competing over who was the better at catching fish, and men competing over who was the better at kicking a bag of wind around a field, who would they think were the more ridiculous? Subbuteo, I think, would come somewhere in the middle.

As for the source. Yes, a more up-to-date (or even better written) one would be better, but it trumps inferring this or that from an association's website. "... that some sports which previously competed as NI (with or without a flag) now operate on an all-Ireland basis ..." - I doubt this. Northern Ireland still exists, and will for the foreseeable future, and thus will continue to field teams for Commonwealth and Home internationals. The same, of course, goes for all-Ireland teams which have continued to compete more or less as if partition never happened with a few notable exceptions. The two aren't mutually exclusive, it's a complexity that people just get along with. --sony-youth^pléigh 00:44, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

There is a WP:V and WP:RS source used to back up the statement in the info box if editors want to change it they will need to supply a contradicting ref. BigDunc (talk) 10:47, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

My Recent Edit

Could editors not remove ref material while an ongoing disscusion is taking place. BigDunc (talk) 19:20, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, reversion to a version of the article not backed up by the sources is always good when in doubt. --John (talk) 19:49, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Protestant is... ?

I can't find what is meant by Protestant in this article. The definition of Protestantism is the Christian faith that originated from the Reformation - but that's the definition. To what church or denomination do Protestant Northern Irish feel affiliated with? Lutheranism, Calvinism, Anglicanism - or Presbyterian, Methodist? Even Jehovah's Witnesses are Protestant by definition. --Soetermans (talk) 12:09, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Quite a mixture is the answer. Protestantism in Northern Ireland is heavily divided with no one denomination having an overall majority. There are large numbers of Presbyterians, of Church of Ireland Episcopalians and many others, Ian Paisley is the founder of the very small but prominent Free Presbyterians and there are numerous others. Hence the particular importance of organisations that transcend this divide like the Orange Order. Timrollpickering (talk) 12:43, 16 January 2008 (UTC)