Talk:Joe Calzaghe

Birth Date

He was born in 1972, can anyone change the box on the RHS of the page?

done --LiamE (talk) 21:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The Pride of Wales

To put a stop to the constant editing of the main article how about we have a full discussion here whether Joe Calzaghe is Welsh, Italian or British and then ask a Wikipedia Administrator to rule on what is appropriate to include in the main article. The Encyclopædia Britannica refers to Calzaghe as a Welsh boxer though his autobiography "No Ordinary Joe" is described as "The Autobiography of the Greatest British Boxer of our time" [1]. JoeWiki (talk) 11:24, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, Wales is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and it's not possible to have Welsh citizenship, and since he was born in London, the capital of the UK, he's definitively and provably British. He clearly is associated with Wales, but there is no such thing as Welsh nationality, or Scottish, or English, or Northern Irish for that matter. It's not a difficult issue, just a very misinformed one because people aren't taught the facts.

NPOVING

This article needs EXTENSIVE NPOVing. RickK 04:46, May 13, 2005 (UTC)

• I did some npoving. We need to lkeep it on our eyes. Antonio Veit's destroyer Martin 12:30, March 5, 2005 (UTC)

This is about tag cleanup. As all of the tags are more than a year old, there is no current discussion relating to them, and there is a great deal of editing done since the tags were placed, or in some cases it's clear there is a consensus, they will be removed. This is not a judgement of content. If there is cause to re-tag, then that of course may be done, with the necessary posting of a discussion as to why, and what improvements could be made. Better yet, edit the article yourself with the improvements in place. This is only an effort to clean out old tags, and permit them to be updated with current issues if warranted.Jjdon (talk) 22:34, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Joe Calzaghe succession box

Championships can be replaced with a succession box Maya Levy 03:52, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Box added. Hixx

Thank you Maya Levy 04:15, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Orthodox fighters

• Right handed fighters are called Orthodox
• Left handed fighters are called Southpaws, not unorthodox (Not necessarily. De la hoya is left-handed, but he uses orthodox stance. There are also some right-handed boxers who has southpaw pose.)

Maya Levy 04:23, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=unorthodox+southpaw&btnG=Google+Search&meta= Calzaghe is an unorthodox southpaw. Hixx

http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=005364 < clearly states he's a southpaw

Southpaws are generally called southpaws, not unorthodox southpaws

Maya Levy 04:28, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

It's a cultural diference. The term 'unorthodox southpaw' is used quite frequently here in the UK. Indeed the entry for prince naseem bears the same term: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Naseem .

point made. since he's a UK fighter I'll leave the term Maya Levy 04:37, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Robin Reid

No mention of the Reid fight being a split decision as well as controversial?? BoxNut83 19:43, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Isn't every split decision controversial by nature?

The Reid fight wasn't controversial actually. A few people thought Reid did enough...it was close enough for debate of the good kind....Anthony Robbins 21:22, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Image

sort out the image it looks like someone testing photoshop for the first time - badly

Enzo Calzaghe

The first person who taught him the first boxing lessons was his father, Enzo. Joe was 9 years old. I am adding the link.

• [[2]]

Jack 15:50, 30 Jan 2007 (UTC)

I think it should say something about his dad being his trainer. It makes sense. Michael Dolan

Birthplace

The main article currently has his birthplace as Hammersmith, while the infobox says Newbridge. One of these is perhaps wrong.

As his own website say, born Hammersmith but raised in Wales - that's where the confusion comes in! Rgds, - Trident13 (talk) 22:34, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Wrong date for Kessler fight

Aa mentioned by a user in the history page, the date of the Kessler fight should be the 4th rather than 3rd. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.243.253.221 (talk) 00:53, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

All press gave the date as the 3rd I think so as not to be confusing to the TV and ticket buying audiences. The undercard started on the 3rd although the fight itself was on the 4th - unless you were watching in the US where it was still the 3rd! --LiamE 13:03, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes the 3rd would be correct then! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.13.254.141 (talk) 18:47, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Undisputed

Calzaghe Kessler was not a full unification fight and Calzaghe is technicially NOT the undisputed champ so to bad. You can't put it in there. WIKI rules guys.Xman52 (talk) 23:48, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

There are many perfectly good cites for Calzaghe now being the undisputed champion so it can stay. You of course refer to the IBF title which has gone elsewhere. Joe won that title from the man who won it from the man, and despite remaining active was forced to vacate the title or face a guy that simply should not be in a ring with a 10 year world champ as was shown in Steiglitz's next fight, and the next fight of his victor. It is rediculous of a sanctioning body to try and force mandatory defenses onto a champion of fights that cannot be made financially viable as the challenger is barely top 20 material. The upshot of this is not that Joe is not undisputed as champion, it is that the IBF super middleweight belt currently means diddly. Its odd that you don't care whether Joe has the WBU or IBO belts, but seem to care about the IBF belt which has, by its governing body actions, relegated itself to their prestige level. --LiamE (talk) 09:52, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Whatever, He doesn't have the IBF title. Bottom line, He's not undisputed.Xman52 (talk) 16:23, 23 November 2007 (UTC) Also I had to take down the Rocky Marciano reference because 49-0 is not an unbeaten record. Many fighters have gone undefeated for longer then that. He is the only heavyweight champion who retired undefeated. That's totally different. Xman52 (talk) 16:30, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Whatever indeed. Welcome to Original Research. Your opinion on the matter is about as important as mine. MANY repected authorities on the sport can be cited saying Joe is undisputed and few if any saying there is any dissent, so, as far as the article is concerned, he is undisputed. As for the Marciano record people love sticking that everywhere, I for one would not miss it. --LiamE (talk) 16:45, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Here's a few references for him being undisputed champ. [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] Unless you can come up with some decent cite to say otherwise I will revert the article to its previous state in a day or 2. You may not be aware of wiki policy on these matters. Whether your idea about him "only" having 4 of the 5 respected belts the division means he is not undisputed champin is right or wrong doesn't matter at all - what matters is what can be cited, anything else is original research and is not permissable. If you can cite to the contrary we can add a section discussing the validity of his undisputed claim otherwise the article must reflect his undisputed status as it did before. --LiamE (talk) 02:18, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

---

Xman52's talking rubbish again. When Calzaghe boxed Lacy there was no Linear champion, and they weren't the consensus top two in the world. Same with Kessler-Beyer. Before those two fights all 4 were simply title holders. After the two unifications Kessler was as much a champion as Calzaghe was. Calzaghe-Kessler crowned the undisputed champion. It's simple. The fact that the IBF stripped Calzaghe after the Lacy fight is irrelevent.Anthony Robbins (talk) 18:18, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Nationality

True, Calzaghe is considered Welsh on account that his he's from Wales. However, this is to be his ethnic group but it can't be his nationality. Here's why.

About a century ago, Wales, England, Scotland and Northern Ireland joined together to form a country which is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Therefore, any person who come from either of these places is British. They even all share on one head of state and that is Gordon Brown.

Therefore, Calzaghe should be referred as British. 61.9.126.41 (talk) 13:10, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I wish people from outside wouldn't confuse themselves with the complexities of nationality in a UK context. Firstly, Gordon Brown is the UK's head of government; the head of state is Queen Elizabeth II. Wales also has its own First Minister, Rhodri Morgan. The creation of the UK of GB & NI was the result of most of Ireland leaving the old UK of GB & I, but let's not get involved in the last thousand years of history. The UK is a country, and state, but England, Scotland, and Wales (less so Northern Ireland except in some contexts, but let's not go there) are also regarded as both countries and nations, although not as sovereign states. It is quite normal for people from the UK to refer to themselves as "Welsh", "English", "Scottish" and/or "British", and to have preferences about which order to classify themselves; I am firstly Welsh, then British, then from the EU, and it would appear that Calzaghe has the same preferences, at least for the first two. -- Arwel (talk) 14:08, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I know the argument that under British law (or should this be the Laws of England & Wales) there is no longer a Welsh or English nationality. This might change how you complete your passport application but should we strike all reference to being Welsh and English on Wikipedia. What I was hoping for when I started this discussion is that we should at least be consistent. JoeWiki (talk) 18:21, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

English, Welsh etc are often hard to prove. There are a couple of verifiable ways of doing it. One is by passport, but that means that all those from the Home Nations are British by default. (Doesn't bother me, but it does bother lots of people). Another way, for sports men and women, is to use the nationality they compete under, which is also verifiable. Footballers then represent the Home Nations while racing drivers (for example) represent Gt Britain, because that happens to be the way those sports work. I don't know, but it seems likely that the (various) boxing authorities recognise England, Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland as separate entities.

Meanwhile, someone's edited this article to give Calzaghe's birthplace as Cwmbran, Wales. I'll put it back to London. Cheers. 4u1e (talk) 17:41, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Also why does Italian appear as a nationality? Does he hold an Italian passport as well? (Obviously he has very strong Italian heritage, but that's not the same thing as nationality, surely?) 4u1e (talk) 17:53, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Welsh most certainly is a nationality and Wales is a country. If you want to be really picky it is slightly different to the three other constituent countries of the UK in that it is a principality whereas the others are kingdoms, but I digress. Whether a British person is considered as English, Welsh, Scottish or Irish is really down to personal choice. Some identify with their family origins, some with their place of birth, others with where the grew up or lived for a large portion of their life. Joe is clearly a case of the latter. I changed the article back from Welsh to British earlier as that is what is cited. I'd be happy for the article to say he's Welsh as that is clearly how he sees himself rather than as "English born" despite that being technically accurate. Anyone got a nice cite for him being Welsh? Its an interesting can of worms... I dread to think what nationality the have down for "Aussie" Joe Bugner. I'm afraid to look! --84.92.8.246 (talk) 16:41, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Typical - just because he wasn't born in England, he's suddenly argued to be British! Here's a thought - you can argue where he was born; or you can conclude on what he states himself. Thankfully, the article now states his correct birth place of Hammersmith - but does anyone see him wearing a Union Jack, let alone calling himself British? Plus, his Mum's Welsh and his dad's mostly definitely Sardinian, so under international law he can claim anyone one of three "nationalities" - and he chooses: Welsh! So please, stop changing it around and accept he's only "British" in the eye's of the English. Rgds, - Trident13 (talk) 01:19, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

He was born in England, hence the discussion. --LiamE (talk) 01:38, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Calzaghe should be referred to as a Welsh boxer because that is what he calls himself. Nationality is nothing to do with it - his nationality remains British, since nationality is a legal attribute and the legal description of the nationality of the peoples of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is 'British'. People's description of themselves as Scottish, English or Welsh, on the other hand, is a description of which part of Britain they are from, and, more importantly, which culture they are part of.. But anyone who is Scottish, English or Welsh is also automatically 'British' because England Scotland and Wales are all part of the island of Britain, and anyone from Britain is 'British'. They also have the legal nationality of 'British' - which also extends to those from Northern Ireland. It is a matter of choice for British people choose to use their specific national identity (Welsh, Scottish etc.) ahead of their more general national identity (British). So 'Welsh' is a much more accurate and specific description of Joe's national and cultural identity than 'British' - although both are of course true. This is a particular issue for British people - and more particularly for the Scots and the Welsh- because cultural differences between the 3 countries of Britain - Scotland, England and Wales, have persisted over the centuries. Scotland and England were separate and often warring countries for 800 years before being united in an Act of Union only 300 years ago! Scotland still retains a separate legal system. The Welsh were militarily defeated by the English over 700 years ago but retain cultural differences and the Welsh language. So calling Joe a 'Welsh' boxer more accurately presents his homeland and his culture. It also at the same time represents his more general national identity as British since all Welsh are by definition British, AND presents his legal nationality (British) since all British people have British nationality! So calling him a 'British' boxer, whilst correct, is not so complete and leaves out a crucial part of his national and cultural identity. Whereas calling him Welsh tells us everything. SInce the function of the use of the word 'British', as it currently is in the body of the article, is to describe his national and cultural allegiance, 'Welsh' should be used instead of 'British'. But on the right where there is a specific label 'Nationality', 'British' should be used. davbeau

Undisputed disputed

You can't say Calzaghe is the undisputed champion when he only has 3 belts. You can't say him and Sven Otteke both have world title defense records when they both claim to be defending the same title in the same division at the same time. Neither 1 of there records are valid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.30.156.157 (talk) 19:52, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Nonsense. Calzaghe is Undisputed & Linear Champion. Xman52 should be banned again. Fucking idiot.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Anthony Robbins (talk • contribs) 08:54, February 7, 2008 (UTC) FU, you stupid british tea bagger. How the hell can Calzaghe and Otteke both have defense streaks in the same division at the same time. Because there both a joke thats how —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.30.156.157 (talk) 01:58, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Please see above for a dozen references to him being undisputed smw champ. Either cite a source that says different or just go away. Dont confuse that with him being undisputed for his entire reign. He became undisputed after beating Kessler, which was a numebr of years after Ottke's retirement. Ottke on the other hand never became undisputed champ. As for 2 boxers in the same division having streaks at the same time, that will always be possible as long as there is more than one belt. What you cant have is 2 undisputed streaks. That has not happened. --LiamE (talk) 18:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

---

Someone ban him please. He's nothing but a vandal. Anthony Robbins (talk) 16:45, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Edited above for civility. Dont let it get to you Anthony, its only the interweb. --LiamE (talk) 19:02, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Spin, spin, spin,. Calzaghe and Otteke's "streaks" don't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as real champions like Larry Holmes and Joe Louis. Joe Calzaghe is nothing but a WBO belt holder who just became the super middleweight champion recently.

I totaly agree the Louis' 25 defenses of an undisputed title is a class apart. Again Holmes' record is outstanding - he was the main man for most of his reign though there was some politicking going on and one could agrue it wasnt a great time for the division. However the article at no point tries to claim that Calzaghe's reign is superior to these, it merely states fact as to how long he has held the WBO (and recently other) belts. Value judgements as to the importance of the WBO belt have no place on wikipedia. The links are there for people to make up there own mind as to how important a title it is. The facts are he has held the WBO belt for a long time and defended it 20 or so times. As long as the article sticks to those facts what is your problem? --LiamE (talk) 18:55, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

This article is totally biased. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.30.156.157 (talk) 00:33, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I suppose that must be true as the article does not conform to the agenda that you have been single handedly pushing for some time now. Sorry that isnt how it works. You have made no effort to discuss any changes and it is clear your motives in editing this article are purely to denigrate the subject, not to improve the article in terms of copy or accuracy. Either try and discuss what changes the article needs and what needs improvement in an adult manner or find something else to do. Either way bear in mind that this article MUST conform to WikiBIO standards and everything must be sourced. You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about whether Joe is the undisputed champ or not. I have provided a dozen or so good sources to say he is, whereas you havnt found one that says he isnt. Until you do you wont have much joy getting anything into the article saying he is anything other than the current undisputed super middleweight champion of the world. I must warn you your boorish bahaviour on this page could be considered tantamount to page disruption. Please try and be constructive. --LiamE (talk) 22:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Oops, looks like my warning was a bit late. See you in two weeks no doubt. --LiamE (talk) 23:09, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Copyright violation

The section on Calzaghe's win over Hopkins is a blatant copyright violation. Can someone please recrtify this? Thanks. LuciferMorgan (talk) 04:19, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Records

I made this comment on ITN but it may be useful to editors here... [14] & [15] suggests the world record for undefeated matches by a pro boxer is 49 held by Rocky Marciano (who was a heavyweight champion). The other significant record appears to be that of world title defenses by Joe Louis at 25. Whatever the case, Caljaghe has virtually no chance of getting the most wins of a professional boxer given the large number of fights boxers of previous eras participated in e.g. Harry Greb Nil Einne (talk) 08:03, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

It would be wrong to suggest that 49-0 is the record for any pro boxer to go undefeated. It is the record for a world champion at heavyweight to retire undefeated on. Off the top of my head Julio Cesar Chavez went to 86-0 or so at one point. Joe Louis' 25 defenses at heavyweight is an all weight record as his his length of championship tunure. Although Calzaghe is closing in on that, the two are not really comparable as Louis was undisputed for the whole reign whereas Calzaghe held one of several titles for most of his. --LiamE (talk) 01:35, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Ring

A boxer cannot be the Ring champion in two weight divisions at the same time. Calzaghe therefore cannot be both the super-middle and the light-heavyweight champion simultaneously. If he becomes the Ring's light-heavyweight champion, he will automatically vacate the supper-middleweight Ring title. Please wait and see what The Ring actually do about this (keep him as super-middleweight champion? move him up to light-heavyweight?) before changing this - note [16] still lists Hopkins as LH champion as of this message. I think he will be moved to Light-Heavyweight champion, but if he is, he will automatically vacate the super-middleweight Ring title - but wait and see. Neıl ☎ 12:05, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I have a suspicion they will make Joe ring champ in the division he decides to fight in next. --LiamE (talk) 16:48, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I actually don't think there is any "automatic" stripping of titles. Much like Ring ranks fighters in two divisions when they are champions in one weight class but campaign at another weight, I think they would list Calzaghe at both SM and LH if he said he would campaign at both. Calzaghe probably won't do this, but to say that "a boxer cannot be Ring champion in two weight divisions at the same time" isn't supported by anything published by the Ring.MKil (talk) 02:55, 22 April 2008 (UTC)MKil

Ring don't rank anybody in two classes. Ring never rank anybody in two classes simultaneously. Look for yourself. Neıl ☎ 15:20, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but you are simply wrong. I have a copy of the ratings from the December 2006 issue. Ricky Hatton is the Jr. Welter champ and he's also the #4 welterweight. You have no basis upon which to proclaim Ring's rating's policy. Calzaghe clearly won the LH championship in his fight with Hopkins. Rafael says so and Buffer said so in the ring after the fight. There is no need to wait for Ring to update their page.MKil (talk) 15:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)MKil

Further evidence that Ring does indeed rank fighters in two weight classes from here [17]: "In the immediate aftermath of his middleweight victory over Felix Trinidad on May 14, 2005, Wright told The Ring that he intended to drop back down to 154-pound to defend his junior middleweight belt. Therefore, we continued to recognize him as the junior middleweight champion and also installed him as the number-two middleweight contender." And in 2003 Roy Jones was LH champ and ranked at heavyweight[18]. Back in 1982, in fact, Sugar Ray Leonard was recognized by Ring as both JM champ and welterweight champ[19]. MKil (talk) 15:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC)MKil

I'll be damned. Ring have updated their ratings and gone against their own rules ("The only three occasions when a fighter will lose his championship status are when he retires, moves to another weight division, or is defeated in a championship bout"). Neıl ☎ 17:23, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Not to belabor the point, but you are misinterpreting their rules. They never said what you claimed they said. A fighter can campaign at two different weights. If he permanently decided to fight at only one weight the Ring will recognize that decision and rank him accordingly. They never strip champions. They merely recognize when a champion relinquishes his title.MKil (talk) 17:39, 22 April 2008 (UTC)MKil

Personal Information

According to his profile information on www.FamousHookups.com, Joe is married to a model named Jo-Emma Larvin. This two boys' names are Joe Jr. and Connor. --KTJackson (talk) 19:07, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

With regard to his height is states on his website he is 6ft not 5ft 11.5 he also was stated as being 6ft against hopkins see http://www.joecalzaghe.com/stats.asp —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.17.107.96 (talk) 10:41, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

There are good cites for both 5'11.5" and 6'. Personally I would leave it at whatever it is out of those two, the fact is measuring of height is not that acurate and either figure is supportable. His site has 6', boxrec and others 5'11.5". --LiamE (talk) 23:57, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Relinquishment

When will Calzaghe relinquish the super-middleweight titles? He beat everybody he needed to beat at that weight, it's time to move on to the rest of the light-heavyweight division.--69.131.125.222 (talk) 01:58, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

He has said he is only likely to fight once more, and the likely opponent would be Roy Jones. Although that fight would be huge in any event by not vacating the titles Joe leaves options open such as fighting Jones at 168 for multiple titles or if that were to fall through maybe someone like Kelly Pavlik, again for the 168lb belts. He would be mad to vacate any titles before he had to. In any case he beat the concensus number 2 at 168lb jsut 6 months ago, so most bodies would not push a mandatory defense on him for a few months yet. --LiamE (talk) 04:50, 30 April 2008 (UTC)