Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Kung Fu Man (talk | contribs) at 05:25, 29 September 2008 (→‎Advice for merge target title of Nintendo NES sports games.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games list problems again

Hahnchen refuses to accept he is the only one that strongly wants the list. I believe the consensus to not have a list exists, but he refuses to admit it. So anytime I add the list back, he just removes it. Also see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Video_games/Archive_53#List_of_Olympic_events (as well as the FAC page which is linked in that discussion) for more on this matter. Hahnchen needs to handle this issue better, instead of assuming consensus means everyone has to be for (or against) something. Consensus is the majority, not everyone. If you read past discussions, most people don't want the list. RobJ1981 (talk) 18:46, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If he's getting reverted by multiple people, he can be blocked for 3RR... I don't see what else needs to be done if you have strong consensus on your side. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 18:49, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think multiple people are reverting him. But the discussions about the list show there isn't a consensus to keep the list. RobJ1981 (talk) 19:01, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Given that the FAC closed with comments from User:SandyGeorgia, an impartial user, stating that no consensus was formed, and that the majority of users said they had no preference over the inclusion of the list, that's pretty much the definition of no consensus. - hahnchen 15:21, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Copied from my talk page -

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

The list isn't a part of the article being featured. This post (found here: Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Mario_&_Sonic_at_the_Olympic_Games): With discussion in three different places aobut the list of events, no clear consensus has emerged to convince me I should hold off promotion over that issue. I do hope the involved Projects will work to develop a guideline for future articles. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:18, 6 September 2008 (UTC). So it being in the article when it was promoted or not, isn't relevant to it's value at all. However the part about a consensus is wrong. Only a small amount of editors (with you the only one edit warring regularly, to re-add the list) want the list. Stop being difficult and accept the fact the consensus is against the list. How many people against the list do you need, before you stop edit warring: 10, 20, 100? Just stop edit warring, this is getting old. RobJ1981 (talk) 16:43, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The closing comment specifically states there was no clear consensus over the inclusion of the list. Take a look at the discussions, the majority of editors have declared a non-commital response as to the inclusion of the list, that's a clear no-consensus. Your clear cut declaration of what falls into Wikipedia, and what is WP:NOT was also not supported. Please address the comments at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Video_games#Mario_.26_Sonic_at_the_Olympic_Games_list_problems_again instead of taking it here. - hahnchen 03:19, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hahnchen is just being difficult and needs to stop. The consensus is clear. The nonsense about "non-commital" is wrong. Do you expect all of them to edit war with you? Is that considered non-commital to you? Then will you finally stop? I somehow doubt even that, will stop you. The list belongs off, it's game guide content at best. Olympics are an actual event, but so is MLB and NFL: but we certainly don't have game guide lists at articles for those games. RobJ1981 (talk) 13:51, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You need consensus to delete information from Wikipedia. In a discussion when the majority of users suggest that either way is OK, that's a non-committal response, it certainly isn't the consensus view that the events are outside of Wikipedia's scope. Points such as why exclusive events are covered in explicit detail, yet shared events are not have still not been resolved. Why are the categories of events listed, even when athletics and aquatics are so vague compared to table tennis? The reason that there's an "Events" section in the article, is because they're an integral part of the gameplay, and they define the game in the same way that List of songs in Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock does. And MLB? I'm pretty sure in all the MLB articles, we state what sport it's based on. - hahnchen 07:00, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hahnchen, I don't think the Guitar Hero analogies are completely applicable in this case. Such music video games normally have specially designed controllers for a specific type of gameplay that is heavily integrated into the song. That's why the song lists become more notable than something like the Mario & Sonic events.
After looking through the past discussions, even though a number of people were indifferent, there were more that felt the list should be excluded. I'd argue that consensus was in favor of it's exclusion. (Guyinblack25 talk 21:30, 24 September 2008 (UTC))[reply]
So you ignore those who are non-committal? That's how you'd close an afd? If the majority of users are indifferent, we just gloss over them? That's not it's done, the non-committal users define the no-consensus.
And how is a specially designed controller even relevant? Think your argument through, the fact that there's a single controller, and single method of gameplay, detracts from the importance of the individual song. Whether you're playing Aerosmith or Dragonforce, your gameplay experience is going to differ less than if you're participating in the 100m or the hammer throw. Yet without the list, you don't even know the hammer throw exists. The reason "song lists become more notable", is because of the precedent that soundtracks are fine in list form, but apparently, everything else regarding gameplay isn't, because as specified in the previous discussion - it'll inevitably lead to spell lists and character lists etc. That's a baseless prediction.
The Events are obviously important to the gameplay, or else there wouldn't be the section dedicated to them in the article. Without the full list of events, you list the vague categories, and you list the exclusive events as if events that differ are more notable than events that are similar. The events were announced prior to the games release, and reported on by reliable sources[1][2], because unlike WarioWare minigames, they have real world relevance and aren't just trivial skins. - hahnchen 22:01, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would say the list should be omitted. Slippery slope, notability, and non-paragraph info all pushes me to say it should be deleted.LedRush (talk) 22:07, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. I don't see anything especially notable about the games as a whole, no more than I did when the Lists of mini-games in the Mario Party series were on the AfD. - A Link to the Past (talk) 22:11, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hanhchen- We're not talking about an AfD, we're talking about an embedded list in an article. The non-committals were not on a fence and couldn't decide, they almost all said it was a non-issue for the FAC. They chose to not let the event list be a factor in their voting decision.
While the reader may not know there was a hammer throw event in the game, do they really need to? Is it cool to know? Yes, but does it really further my understanding of the game? Jappalang said it best, "the issue might be a mismatch in our expectations of 'comprehensiveness'". We just have different definitions of what the reader "needs" to know to understand the topic. (Guyinblack25 talk 22:50, 25 September 2008 (UTC))[reply]
It should be noted: Hahnchen has once again re-added the list to the article, which I reverted. This discussion (as well as the edit history of the article) shows he is currently the only one pushing for the list. RobJ1981 (talk) 23:36, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think the list should be included on the grounds that it makes Wikipedia a better encyclopedia. IMO the article is better for the reader with it than without. But what do I know :-) Jw6aa (talk) 08:32, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Street Fighter: The Movie

I'm thinking of splitting the Street Fighter: The Movie article into two. The arcade game and the console game released for the PlayStation and Saturn are really nothing alike aside from using the same digitized footage from the film and are considered separate games by Capcom. Even All About Capcom Head-to-Head Fighting Games makes this point a few times. On the other hand, I don't think there's enough real-world coverage to justify covering the two games separately. Jonny2x4 (talk) 06:55, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well you could cover the arcade game as the primary and the port solely as secondary, since it can be condensed to about a paragraph as it was just SF2 with those sprites, right?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 12:40, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But that's the point I'm trying to bring up. Its NOT a port. Its a separately produced game that also happened to use digitized footage of the film. The reason why its mistaken for a port is because the console version was given the same title for its American release. Jonny2x4 (talk) 15:43, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A split may be a good idea then, especially since both games do tend to have been received differently (the arcade game getting a lot of the bad rap the home ports got). Go for it.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 10:17, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WiiWare and List of WiiWare games merge?

Neither article is terribly large, so I think a merge is in order. Discuss here. - A Link to the Past (talk) 02:56, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it might be better to keep them separate...I can see the main article possibly getting improved to have more body to it, and the list to be much bigger as time goes on. A merge at this point could just end up causing problems down the line.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 10:13, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Images for Black Mesa mod

I'm concerned with the images at Black Mesa (game mod). Some of the screenshots used are labelled as being in the public domain, some have even managed to find their way onto the Commons. My concern is that these are not images in the public domain and the uploader believes that as the game is free and because the images have been put out for free viewing, that equates to being in the public domain. But as we all know, publishing on the Internet does not automatically put something into the public domain. I also cannot find any evidence of the team saying that the images are in the public domain, and the fact each image has legalese down the side of it that says "respective trademarks copyright (c) Valve Corporation", it strikes me that we've got a case of copyright breach here. Thoughts? Other images state that the uploader is the copyright holder, which is believable as I've known at least one other mod team releasing images for free use. However, it could be worth emailing or forum PM-ing the team to ensure that one of them did indeed upload the images. -- Sabre (talk) 17:15, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Using Half-Life assets (wall textures at bare minimum)? Then we've got derivative works and regardless of what massaging the Black Mesa team has done, they are non-free images. These need to be deleted from commons and all but a couple deleted from WP, the remaining corrected with licensing. --MASEM 18:15, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The following are on enwp and are tagged as PD:
Image:Black Mesa (Mod) Screenshot1.jpg, Image:Black Mesa (Mod) Screenshot2.jpg, Image:Black Mesa (Mod) Screenshot3.jpg, Image:Black Mesa (Mod) Screenshot4.jpg, Image:Anomalous tc 01.jpg, Image:Blastpit 002.jpg, Image:C2a4 mediarelease 004.jpg, Image:C3a2 mediarelease 001.jpg, Image:C3a2 mediarelease 004.jpg, Image:Gargantua beauty.jpg
I deleted the one Commons image ([3]). Anyone want to create a mass IFD for the rest (or just delete them)? Giggy (talk) 23:08, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be happy to delete them wholesale if there's no opposition here (in the case an image might be useful, etc.). sephiroth bcr (converse) 23:17, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If someone were to add critical commentary (ya know, the usual routine) we could keep one. But it may just be easier to reupload when someone does that. (Not objecting.) Giggy (talk) 23:49, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I support deletion. Although the project said on its site that "Levels will be faithful to the original Half-Life concept and built from scratch"[4]), the products are still derivative art (using the game's engine to render textures and models that are faithful to the originals). Furthermore, the screenshots are all water-marked and mostly uploaded by the project's own members.[5] The effort frankly smacks of trying to advertise their site and get around the no galleries of non-free images ruling. Jappalang (talk) 02:08, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Deleted the bunch. Feel free to send a message if one of them ever needs to be restored or similar. Cheers, sephiroth bcr (converse) 18:11, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ken/Sakura

  • In what looks to be a potential rehash of a MedCab debate from way back when, Mr.bonus (talk · contribs) is repeatedly moving the articles for the Street Fighter characters Ken and Sakura to locations that don't use their full names, and Kung Fu Man (talk · contribs) moves them back. While I don't care much either way, this back and forth moving is disruptive, and the MedCab appears that the decision reached was to have them at Ken Masters and Sakura Kasugano because those names have been used in merchandising. Another RfC would surely be pointless, but neither side appears willing to back down. What to do? JuJube (talk) 00:46, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I know this is a third-party game, but for the record the official site of Namco X Capcom list both of those characters by their full names too (see here). Jonny2x4 (talk) 02:04, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
From what I read of the mediation, it seems to have been closed without reaching a compromise. According to the dispute resolution process, either start another mediation session or escalate the war to the edit warring noticeboard. The final option is to go for arbitration. An unoffered (and unrecommended) route is to request admin attention at WP:AN/I... Jappalang (talk) 02:16, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Arbitration would probably be a waste of time again. Bonus is more interested in being "right", and his attitude is very...antagonistic. His stance is that the name can only be used if it appeared on the in-match lifebars or select screen, with little compromise (the original brought up the matter that Tekken 5 stated the full name audibly when a character was selected; his response was that someone might not hear it). It's a bit too early in the morning for me to argue effectively atm, but I don't think a disambig title for an article is necessary when the name is presented in the game and supported manuals in a very clear format to the extent a person new to the subject wouldn't have to dig around to find it out (a la Rolento). But I'm not going to edit war with him either. There has to be a better option.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 09:47, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think the full names should be used, not necessarily because of merchandising, but because this is a convenient way to disambiguate these from other "Ken" and "Sakura" articles. Megata Sanshiro (talk) 10:45, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Copyedit for Age of Empires II: The Age of Kings?

So, I've basically gone and rewrittten this in the last week (if that), going from here to its current status. This is one of our high importance Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Wikipedia 0.7 workshop articles (hence my sudden motivation to work on it). I'd like to take this one to FAC before the 0.7 thing is finalised, so if anyone could give it a quick copyedit (or point out any glaring issues they could find), that'd be great.

Thanks! Giggy (talk) 06:17, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent work, are you going to submit it for GA first or go straight to FA? Someoneanother 23:57, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Probably straight for FA, thought it does depend how bold I'm feeling. Pagrashtak left some useful feedback here. Giggy (talk) 00:02, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Now at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Age of Empires II: The Age of Kings for the record. Giggy (talk) 00:14, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Requesting an eye on Species of StarCraft for gameguide info

Over the last few hours, an anomynous IP (in good faith I might add, there's nothing vandalistic about it) has been adding gameguide-esque information on in-game strategies. It's unreferenced, generally requires the reader to have played the game and is pretty much all original research, and as such I removed it, as a brief overview of in-game strategies that a reader who has not played the game has been included. However, I think that the IP may persist on re-adding the information, and as I can't revert again without breaching 3RR. The article is currently at GAN, and such content disputes can be taken as instability, which will affect the article's chances, so can I ask for one or two people to keep an eye on it to make sure that further game guide information doesn't creep in. -- Sabre (talk) 12:47, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd start by leaving a message on the user's talk page. People new to Wikipedia might not know about edit summaries but would find it hard to miss a big orange banner at the top of the page. :) ChimpanzeeUK - User | Talk | Contribs 12:58, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Help needed from authors of video game FAs or GAs for Wikipedia 0.7

Our project has been fortunate enough to have a large number of articles selected for inclusion in Wikipedia 0.7. If you have been involved in a FA or GA under our scope, please check Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Wikipedia 0.7 workshop to see if your article has been selected for inclusion. If so, please follow the instructions there to select an oldid of the article that is in good shape and vandalism-free—this shouldn't take too much time and will ensure that your work enters Wikipedia 0.7 in good condition. Thanks to those that have already been helping out with this effort to improve the contribution of our project. Pagrashtak 21:04, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mario articles in serious condition.

Seeing as how many of the Mario articles are in no good shape, I propose that there be a task force made for Mario, and that an effort to promote every main game in the series to GA be made. On that note, we should go in order of the games' releases, so we would start with Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels, then move onto Super Mario Bros. 2, Super Mario Bros. 3, then Super Mario World, then Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins, then Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island, then New Super Mario Bros., and finally, Super Mario Galaxy - just to get into order. Anyone interested? - A Link to the Past (talk) 03:25, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You might add Super Mario Land to that list as well: it's currently GA, but in all honesty it feels more like a B-class article given the lack of some citations and information in other areas.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 03:51, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We can make Mario the current primary focus on the Nintendo task force if need be. MuZemike (talk) 04:17, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I like MuZe's idea. :) --Izno (talk) 04:54, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've already added a message to the task force's to-do list (as well as updating it with the 0.7 Nintendo articles that need cleanup). The biggest ones are
All of those abovementioned Mario articles are High- or Top-importance. MuZemike (talk) 14:15, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is a good opportunity to mention that I barely have any time for writing articles or doing much besides reverting edits now on Wikipedia. I'd help with this as I've already taken several of the Mario articles to GA (and one FA), but there just isn't enough time since I've started college. The most I could muster is a review on a weekend, but that's abou it. Ashnard Talk Contribs 16:27, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I started work on Mario Bros. with some basic reformatting and rewrites. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 21:27, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I reassessed Super Mario Bros. 2 as high, per the fact that it was very well-known, and very significant to the industry.
Also, I think Mario Bros. should be semi-protected - most of the edits are vandalism lately, and it would help to not have to sift through them. - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:43, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think there's much of a case for semi-protection given the sporadicity of the vandalism. (There was only one such edit the past six days.) I'll watch it, though and see if it picks up any. MuZemike (talk) 23:34, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've been working on some Mario articles, removing content, adding content, and merging content. Specifically, I've merged Super Mario All-Stars to Mario (series), Super Mario Bros. Deluxe to Super Mario Bros., Mario's Picross 2 to Mario's Picross, and Mario Kart Arcade GP 2 to Mario Kart Arcade GP - the first because nothing but development and reception is not redundant, the second for almost the same reasons (though it has more unique features), the third because MP2 has little to say about it, and the fourth for the same reason as MP2. - A Link to the Past (talk) 22:12, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Half-Life 2 FAR

Half-Life 2 has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:57, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image in Street Fighter IV infobox.

I been having a mild edit war in the Street Fighter IV with another editor who insists to use an unfinished cover artwork of a yet-to-be-released console version of the game over the original arcade version's poster, which is already out. His rationale is that arcade game posters are not "true cover arts" (even though Infobox VG guidelines does allow for promotional fliers of arcade games) and that a cover artwork for a home version (even an unreleased one) are preferred. Personally, I think original versions should take precedence over any subsequent port and arcade games are no different from theatrically-released films in this case. Having the cover of a console port over the arcade game poster seems to undermine the importance of the original arcade version, as if the arcade version of the game was not important enough. Jonny2x4 (talk) 17:36, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Help with Final Fantasy VII GAN

I need some help here. I initially posted the issue on the FF wikiproject talk page, but no one replied. Any help would be greatly appreciated. The Prince (talk) 18:54, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Infocom (text adventures maker) sales numbers

Maybe not exactly citeable by Wikipedia, but it's definitely worth a look and I'm sure some article somewhere can use it somehow: link. --VPeric —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.175.87.60 (talk) 21:03, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's already a section on this, see #Infocom sales date, if anyone needs it.... --Silver Edge (talk) 04:55, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List problem at Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood

Is a non-playable characters list necessary? I see it as both trivial and listcruft information. I didn't post this at the talk page for the article: as the regular editors of that article have a history of adding trivia to Sonic articles, as well as edit warring because they don't understand how Wikipedia works. RobJ1981 (talk) 23:25, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I count myself a regular contributor to the article. I do my best to revert unsourced or rubbish statements out of this and several upcoming Sonic games, and to make sure they are up-to-date and referenced; in no way do I contribute trivia to any Sonic articles. Sweeping statements about editors aside, I've already recommended working the non-playable characters into the plot section as more details emerge and can be sourced, so that's the course I recommend. SynergyBlades (talk) 23:31, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok to correct my previous statement: a majority of the regular editors have had issues with Sonic articles in the past. RobJ1981 (talk) 23:34, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Rob, there was no need for you to bring this here. WP talk pages are for big things, not trivial matters such as this. This can be easily dealt with on the Sonic Chronicles talk page.Fairfieldfencer FFF 08:17, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Rob, you and AMIB go about acting as though your opinions over-rules everything, and you can do whatever you want without even saying anything, or reaching a slightest bit of a compromise if you do, and yet somehow, SLJ me, Unknown, etc. are always labeled as the "Bad Guys", and get in trouble. What really ticks me off is you take action without any form of notification.Fairfieldfencer FFF 08:35, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This talk page is for ANYTHING, so don't tell me where or where not to post. If I had just posted on the talk page of the Sonic article: you and your friends would've just made rude remarks there. Instead I get rude remarks here by you. RobJ1981 (talk) 19:05, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The truth is the truth. Like you coming here to avoid the consensus by the people who have put all their hard work into this article. If it's not going against policy, you discuss it before taking action. Many edit-wars have been fought because someone decided to go in all guns blazing before taking the peaceful approach. Real wars have been fought that way as well.Fairfieldfencer FFF 20:08, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Simply by applying the tried and true method of whether someone who knows nothing about the series finds that information useful, I can say it isn't needed. All I see is a bunch of bolded names, referenced though they may be, but with no explanation of who these characters are, what their role is or indeed anything else other than their names. They are contextless for readers who don't know anything about the title, and so are useless. -- Sabre (talk) 19:21, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Save the NPCs, and probably the PCs too, for the prose plot summary when it comes out. Nifboy (talk) 19:48, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's what we're talking about. Soon we shall add important details like the classes of the characters in the game. So they stay? Good.Fairfieldfencer FFF 19:59, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Uh, no. Write the plot summary as prose, i.e. not a list. I generally subscribe to the school of thought that says a good plot summary negates the need for a list of characters. Nifboy (talk) 23:56, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Add details that actually explain who these characters are if (and a very big if) it can be confirmed in reliable sources. I would also convert the lists into prose, for a more effective summary approach. The classes of the character is irrelevant, the role of the characters is not. If you can't produce something that actually makes sense to readers who have not played the game, and may never play the game (ie me), then remove the lists. There's no middle ground here, contextless stuff like you have at the moment should be removed, or properly dealt with, not left at the level of detail that only Sonic fans know what is being talked about. -- Sabre (talk) 20:04, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Sabre. Also FFF: you don't decide when the discussion is over. This discussion has been active for about a day, so it's not just going to close based on a few people agreeing with you. RobJ1981 (talk) 20:10, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Very well, but don't the links to the articles already provide that? And I don't remember saying "discussion over" to anybody.Fairfieldfencer FFF 20:13, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You posted "So they stay? Good", which implied the discussion was over. RobJ1981 (talk) 20:18, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Aye...We go again...Let's take a breath here Rob, and Triple F. Instead of constantly bickering like I used to (And still ocassionaly do...) let's wait a few days. The game JUST cae out in a FEW countries yesterday, and today, and will be released in NA on Tue, and a later point everywhere else. We should be getting a bunch of reliable sources within the week. That's good. We can tell the role of the major characters whe we get these sources. Only the majr characters though, since, it'd be a pain, and rather useless to go on, and on about characters who only have a few minute role. Alot of RPG's have characters like that. Take the Mario RPG's for example. Though, I must ask Rob (No offence, and not trying to start a fight, here, or anything. Just a little curious.) Why bother bringing it up here? I mean, it isn't a huge editwarr trouble making issue...Yet...And why this specific game? Hundreds of game articles have lists of it's cast. Why only go after this one, and not any of the many others as well? It just seems rather odd to me...And remember, when you removed them without notice you said that they didn't have any reliable sources, when the clearly reliable sources attached to them, to back up their existance. So, what's next? Voice Acting isn't notable next, right? Skeletal SLJCOAAATR Soulsor 20:32, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
FFF, I'm not really referring to the linked articles. Its the names in the non-player character list, where no links are provided and there is literally nothing but a name, where the problem lies. -- Sabre (talk) 20:36, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's cause reliable sources are yet to reveal their role, but, they seem to play a major role in the game. We'll clean ut what is, an isn't notable once we get some more reliable sources. Skeletal SLJCOAAATR Soulsor 20:40, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I explained above why I brought it up here. Next time, please read the whole discussion before you post. My edit summary of the removal was clear: If they actually are important (other than just being in the game): post information with a reliable source., information about the character with a reliable source. Not just a reliable source showing they are in the game. As for this comment: So, what's next? Voice Acting isn't notable next, right?, get over it I never said that, so stop with your assumptions. Many game articles have lists of characters: but most of them don't have useless non-playable lists. Wikipedia isn't the place to post every character in each game. They either need to be notable: or should be removed. RobJ1981 (talk) 20:45, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Interjection: Notability follows WP:GNG, which states topic of article must be comprehensively covered by reliable secondary sources. The games themselves (and the game guides) cannot back up notability. These primary sources are only usable for verification of data. Do not confuse the ways in which reliable sources are used. In other words, a verified item is not necessarily notable, especially when it is only backed by a primary source. Jappalang (talk) 23:42, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Silly question: How did this become an argument about big-N Notability? Are people making articles on these NPCs or a list thereof? Nifboy (talk) 00:12, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, silly me... with all the previous arguments over list articles of Sega characters, I jumped into the conclusion that this again was another discussion about Lists (as articles). Jappalang (talk) 02:52, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is a really useless list. A link to a flash site to confirm that Giant Worm is going to be in the game serves little purpose. If any of this info is important, it'll be mentioned in the plot summary when the game actually comes out. Until then, I don't think we're doing anyone a disservice by not properly informing them that Gizoids are present in this game. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 10:12, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, remember that the eople who read the article, and know nothing about it may want to know who's in the game. And it seems Gizoids are playing a large part, tieing up plotholes from Sonic Battle, and Sonic Advance 3, as well as more of Knuckles the Echidna's, and [[Shadow the Hedgehog]'s backstories. Still, why this game in general? There's plenty of game articles with character lists. Why is it wrong for only this game in general? Anyways, how about once we get more sources, under the "Characters" section, we have a subsection for each character who has a major role in the game? For example:
  • Characters
    • Sonic the Hedgehog (Gives summary of Sonic's role)
    • G.U.N. (Gives summary of role)
      • Commander (Summary of role)
    • etc., etc., etc.

Just, instead of bullets, they'd be sections. Though, if we do that, I'd recommend doing this with all game articles. If you don't, some readers may come to the conclusion of "Oh, Wikipedia hates Sonc, so they're screwing up more Sonic articles." I'm not saying that's my opinion, but, I've seen a couple of fourms with people complaining about everything that's going on. Just pointing it out. Aren't we supossed to make the articles the more presentable, and conclusive as we can? Most readers don't understand what's going on here. That's why they just read the articles, instead of trying to work on them. The readers don't care about what is, and isn't encyclopedic by your understanding of policy/guideline, they want to know what the game's about, who's in it, does it have an products, who does the voicing, etc. Does't that count for something? And I don't want that "Our understanding of policy trumps everything, even consenus" bullcrap that I've been given before. Skeletal SLJCOAAATR Soulsor 15:23, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wouldn't a proper plot summary of the game completely negate the need for any kind of per-character retellings of the plot? That's my pet peeve with character sections, is the plot summary already says "Sonic does X, Y, and Z" and it's 100% redundant to have a "Sonic" section saying he does X, Y, and Z. Nifboy (talk) 16:20, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but we don't have a proper plot summary just yet. All of the above seems to stem from the fact that, right now, we don't have enough information. It'll happen, just give it time. SynergyBlades (talk) 16:24, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Game articles contain Gameplay, Story, Development, and Reception section. Gameplay describes the manner the game is played in layman terms and out-of-universe manner. The Story section is a brief retelling of the game's plot, focusing only on major events. The Development section contains real-world information on the game's creation. Reception takes a look at the industry's and public's reaction to the game and its contents from reliable secondary sources. If a character appears in the Gameplay section (as a key accesory to the gaming experience) or Story section (as a key participant in the major events), or is prominent in the Development section (character conception mentioned or development direction) or Reception section (mascot, memorable figure, etc), then he or she could be mentioned in a Character section (which tends to be a subsection of Story). Any other figures whose only mention is trivial to the game (i.e., do not even possess attributes as afore-mentioned) should not be considered. Jappalang (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here's why I think we need a character section. If we put all the characters in the story section we'd be using a considerable amount of plot, thus going against WP:PLOT. And even if we did, characters who had important roles but didn't do anything in major events would be left out. Take this article for example: Shadow the Hedgehog (game). The character list is very long and they all have important roles, but because most of them don't have any major effect on the story-line, they're put into character sections.Fairfieldfencer FFF 17:04, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I find it difficult to believe the same amount of information violates WP:PLOT when it's in one section, but doesn't when it's in two. Nifboy (talk) 17:35, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's because it's just a list of names then.Fairfieldfencer FFF 17:42, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's still the same information regardless of whether it's in list or prose form. And generally speaking, prose is the preferred method of conveying information (see Wikipedia:Embedded list). Nifboy (talk) 17:46, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict.) Yes, but if we do it in prose for all characters we'll be using alot of plot, but if do it the way it is now we won't be using as much plot and won't be going against policy. It's strictly a matter of opinion that these lists shouldn't be there, or I'm assuming that. Rob hasn't shown any policy to back up his claims.Fairfieldfencer FFF 17:52, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
See, that's what I don't understand, is how putting it in list form makes it better. Nifboy (talk) 17:56, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If we put it into a list we're just putting down names, but if we put all the PCs into the story section, we'll need to use unneeded plot information to mention the characters with minor roles who don't have much impact on the story.Fairfieldfencer FFF 18:05, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So why are you mentioning characters without putting them into context, or explaining anything about them? Or if they're so minor, why are they in a list in the first place? Nifboy (talk) 18:15, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Now I'm confused. If we just use a list of characters we won't be using too much plot, and if we just stick them in the story section we'll be going against policy by using too much. Now we can just list the needed amount of plot and not go against policy.Fairfieldfencer FFF 18:24, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(unindent) What I'm trying to get at is this: If the character isn't major enough to justify a prose mention in the plot (because it'll take up "too much plot") then I don't see the need to make a list of characters just so we can include those minor characters that didn't get mentioned in the plot. To me, saying "Cream the Rabbit happens to show up in one level in Shadow the Hedgehog" already is too much plot. Nifboy (talk) 18:31, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see any plot, just telling people that a character stars in it. Let me make an example of what I'm getting at; Big the Cat is a PC in Sonic Chronicles, but he doesn't have any effect on the story. He's still worth mentioning, and we have to bring up trivial things in the plot section to do so, when we could just put him into a list.Fairfieldfencer FFF 18:37, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's just it: It's trivial. Why, exactly, is Big the Cat as a PC worth mentioning, if no other information about Big the Cat being in the game is? Nifboy (talk) 18:47, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Because he has a major role as a PC, but hes little effect on the story. Because he has a major role he should be mentioned.Fairfieldfencer FFF 18:49, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Major role as a PC" is really vague. It sounds like listing PCs for the sake of listing PCs. Usually when I see a list of characters like this, my first question as a critical reader is always "Why are you telling me this?", because the article has no guidance or context as to why this information is here, except as an infodump. Nifboy (talk) 19:11, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think of a few reasons to list this. 1: so fans can see what characters are coming up, and 2: so non-fans can find out more about the characters by looking up the game and finding out about them, which can happen by either playing the game or watching a trailer, and the link you just added has given me an idea. We could make a character list like that showing their individual class along with a few attacks moves. How does that sound?Fairfieldfencer FFF 19:47, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I linked that particular version of Gain Ground as an egregious example of what not to do, so no. Nifboy (talk) 19:55, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the reasons to write, you've basically narrowed it down to two small, distinct groups: Fans (whom we explicitly don't write for) and people who are looking up the game in order to get to a separate, distinct, and only marginally related topic. I don't really feel it contributes to an overall understanding of Sonic Chronicles, which is what the article is (supposed to be) about. Nifboy (talk) 20:21, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Nifboy, let's not forget that we should also make articles to a way that's most pleaseable to the readers. A spot between "Policy" (Still not noticing any policy against character lists), and "What the readers want". As an example, Big didn't play into the main plot of Sonic Adventure, but, still had a major role in the game. Same for Johnny in Sonic Rush Adventure. Skeletal SLJCOAAATR Soulsor 23:55, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What major role? You basically just said "He's not important, but he's important!" which is it? Nifboy (talk) 03:53, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In an RPG like this, if the characters are important enough to be mentioned, they'll be mentioned in the plot summary. If they're not important enough to be mentioned in the plot summary, they aren't important enough to be mentioned at all. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:09, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is that true of the featured article, Final Fantasy XII, which also has a reception box like the one you removed from the Chronicles article? Anyway, I think the characters section served a purpose when the game was upcoming, but now that it's out - and because it's a smaller game than FFXII - it probably could be folded into plot quite succinctly. We just need a game transcript or set of reviews to be able to outline the plot, but until then the characters section will at least suffice. SynergyBlades (talk) 01:38, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have to agree with Synergy. AMIB, what was the point in removing the reception box? There was nothing wrong with it. Rob, I don't think it was the appropiate time for this. By next week we should be good. I having feeling that once it comes out here in NA on Tuesday, we'll get some good info to add. And with all of the exclusives, and what not, we can add alot of good realworld info. We just need to find more sources that that won't remove it within the next few days, like EB did. Triple F, you need to calm down alot, bud. Back on topic, what we have now is sufficient, I guess...Though, at the moment, we're kinda completely ignoring some NPC's like Gizoid, and Zoah, who have major roles. Ah well. But, I do have a question now, are they even notable enough now for the index? And if so, it'll be rather confusing to the readers if we have a bunch of other characters for a specific game listed in the index, and not even mentioned in that specific game's article, won't it? That's another reason why I feel a list of characters is important to a game article. Skeletal SLJCOAAATR Soulsor 02:10, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Unrelated issue, let's talk about this on talk and not here. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:17, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Break

No. It's completely related. Stop trying to get out of the mess like that. It's completely related to the game's character list. Skeletal SLJCOAAATR Soulsor 02:31, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Talk:Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood#Review grid - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:36, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I replyed, but, I think I may have gotten a little out of hand... Skeletal SLJCOAAATR Soulsor 02:47, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am interjecting and saying that this needs to be on the article's talk page and not here. It shouldn't matter of the record of the users, which is why you're supposed to AGF in the first place. If nothing gets resolved there, then up you go on the dispute resolution ladder, in which I am considering doing in order to put closure to this. MuZemike (talk) 06:22, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox at Street Fighter IV

Can you tell these people that an illustration card is NOT proper for the infobox? They claim that a poster or card supersedes a gameplay screenshot or, now that it's available, a box shot of the home release. I don't know ANY, repeat, ANY VG articles that use some promotional card in the infobox. JAF1970 (talk) 14:06, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, for the record, Half-Life 2: Episode Two uses a promotional poster for the infobox instead of box art, although thats more because a proper box art isn't available. -- Sabre (talk) 14:14, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Captain Commando (video game)
Final Fight
Gradius
Parodius
Soul Edge
Street Fighter III
Tekken 2
Tekken 3
Tekken Tag Tournament
Tekken 5: Dark Resurrection
Tekken 6
And that's just getting started. Plenty of arcade game related articles make use of these, despite home ports.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 14:17, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just to point out, Donkey Kong uses the arcade title screen, as an example for some games that do use them, i guess it would depend on the significance of the arcade game over the home system. Salavat (talk) 15:37, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, in case you haven't noticed, I already brought up the subject two or three sub-sections ago. You should've post there instead of making a new sub-section. Secondly Template:Infobox VG guidelines disagree with you stating "a promotional flier, in the case of an arcade game". And finally, SF IV is an ARCADE game being ported to the Xbox 360. The original platforms should be give preference/priority over a port. Jonny2x4 (talk) 15:53, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
JAF1970 - haven't you already had (and lost) this argument at Talk:Street_Fighter_IV#Image_in_the_infobox.? --Oscarthecat (talk) 17:03, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, we are dealing with arcade games, which do not come with nice little box covers like the old NES, SNES, or even Sega Mega Drive games, for instance. I would like to mention that the WPVG guidelines also do not specify on what to use in the infobox for arcade games. MuZemike (talk) 06:11, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A new task force

A thought has occurred to me. While I know that many of the FAs and GAs and such are watchlisted by many people, perhaps it might be a good idea to set up a subpage of the project (probably to be listed under the "project" heading in the WPVG template) where those people can collaborate on maintaining the FA and GA status of those article which fall under the project scope. Something along the lines of WP:WikiProject Video games/Maintenance. This obviously has a lot of crossover with the current set of TFs, but it might be the place for task forces to be redirected to which have achieved their goal of featuring their topic, such as the Super Smash Bros. task force. While I think that particular task force's domain is smaller than many of the others on that list, it would be defeating the purpose of the inactive project cleanup task force to leave it lying around (while I know the editors of those articles aren't going to suddenly go inactive, its usefulness, I would judge, is significantly lessened now by the fact there's little to work on regarding its topic).

As well, I would say it opens up a pathway for contributors who don't really want to take the route of writing content, but rather to keep it at status quo, at worst. Thoughts? --Izno (talk) 21:47, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Catassing not a standalone article

Seems to me that Catassing is in need of a serious fix:
(1) The article has a couple of cites, but none which establishes that the term "catassing" itself is actually in use. (Re Wikipedia:Avoid neologisms) (The article does cite http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/06.01.00/cover/onlinegames1-0022.html , but although that article uses the expression "cat ass", the term "catassing" itself does not appear there. If anybody can provide a good cite for the use of this term, please add it to the article.)
(2) The whole article should probably be trimmed down, merged into Video game addiction, and the term Catassing be made a redirect to that article.
- Comments? -- 201.53.7.16 (talk) 00:20, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My first impulse is to redirect it to Video game addiction without merging anything, since what's there is mostly first-hand speculation. Nifboy (talk) 01:25, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Concur. Just straight up redirect, I think. It would be difficult to cite such an article. --Izno (talk) 02:58, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mario Party article assessment

I'm thinking of merging most of the Mario Party articles into the series article, but I would like to improve them, and see how many of them have the strength to be their own articles. Mario Party 4 and 5 look in good shape, though I'd like to see their development sections larger, and MPDS, Advance, and 8 have room to grow all over their articles, thanks to their unusual game mechanics. - A Link to the Past (talk) 05:52, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid I couldn't find any more development info than what is there for MP 4 and 5. If anyone has any published sources or other forms of access to development info on these games, then please let me know. I personally don't see how the other game have less notability than 4 and 5, it's just that nobody's renovated them yet. Admittedly, these games are quite similar to each other, but as long as they have independent development and reception info, then each is potentially GA-worthy. Thanks. Ashnard Talk Contribs 11:17, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Given that a planned-but-never-put-forward merge of the Crazy Taxi games into a single article lead to the series article eventually becoming featured, I would say that a series article for MP will likely be good to have anyway, but with callouts to the individual games for a potential merge later. --MASEM 12:52, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, what we have to do is establish that the gameplay for each title is different enough that it's not redundant and couldn't just have the article link to the series article. Also, for instance, the Controversy for the first game is already covered in the series article, as is the Sequels section. We need to boost up the other sections as much as possible. - A Link to the Past (talk) 17:09, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mega Man Robot Masters

Can I get some opinions on lists of Robot Masters appearing in Mega Man games? On the one hand, giving a list of the robot masters that appear in the game does no harm, but on the other hand it adds nothing meaningful to the article. Weapons, Robot Master persona, and stages all fall under fancruft and are against the guidelines of WP:VG, but what about the robot masters themselves? Lumaga (talk) 06:20, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Describe them with prose, it shouldn't be hard. For example, this sucks, but this doesn't. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 10:06, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

People are going to the pages to find out more about the game they are interested in, the Robot Masters are an important aspect of the game. Even it's a small summary, it's still encyclopedic content that people are looking for. --Reploidof20xx (TALK) 13:37, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, provided it is encyclopedic and not something that would be considered WP:GAMEGUIDE material or something you could get on StrategyWiki or GameFAQs. The concept of the Robot Masters is very important as far as the Mega Man series is concerned, but for WP:NOT#PLOT and WP:GAMEGUIDE concerns, that portion would need to be limited in the game articles. MuZemike (talk) 06:05, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pikachu up for GAR

Link. Cutting to the chase need opinions one way or another if GA should stay or not for the article.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 16:48, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mario Bros. B-Class Push

I dunno if Mario Bros. has sufficient information about it for GA, but I believe it can be pushed to B at this point with a little digging. I decided to make a separate section for this so people are more aware. I've taken the liberty of merging three Mario Bros. sequels/ports into it, but Reception and Development are empty. - A Link to the Past (talk) 17:11, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's honestly little more than a stub at the moment though. Organization needs work, and those two sections fleshed out before I would really say it's worth even C class right now. Also I seriously think merging Mario Clash into it might have been a mistake...--Kung Fu Man (talk) 17:17, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Can Mario Clash work on its own? I doubt you'd find many reviews of it besides ScrewAttack really hating it, and general information is difficult to find. It's kind of like Pokémon Card GB2 - it's merged into the first article because little can be said about it, and the first game's article could use some growth. I just feel that making Mario Bros. larger is more important than several small articles about ports and follow-ups to it. - A Link to the Past (talk) 17:21, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah but that pokemon card game was a sequel in the sense. Mario Clash was rather stand-alone. While I'm not sure it'll guarantee a massive article, Mario Clash does have it's own design and reception due to being notoriously bad, such as IGN's statements on it for example (and I'd recommend never using ScrewAttack as a resource; they don't do a great job of checking their statements beyond what's right in their face). The fact it got a re-release of some form (and was the only VB game to do so) helps.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 17:44, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if we can grow Mario Bros. to an acceptable size, we'll split. How's that sound? - A Link to the Past (talk) 17:52, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I honestly still don't like it; mentioning Mario Clash in the article is a good move, but unlike the other two titles it is very recognizable and cited as either one of the best or one of the worst games for the system. And for something like the virual boy with the games it had...that's saying something.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 18:10, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But like I said, separate mechanics don't make for a significant article. As it stands, Mario Bros. is way too small, and splitting Mario Clash back to an article will only serve to further shorten it and create a short article with little room for expansion. - A Link to the Past (talk) 18:21, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
On top of that, I believe Mario Bros. should be like Tetris - it should be about Mario Bros. as a whole, rather than the arcade/NES version. - A Link to the Past (talk) 18:23, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say I've expanded it quite a bit. Comments now? - A Link to the Past (talk) 22:17, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've requested a peer review here. - A Link to the Past (talk) 01:34, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

video game locations: separating potential good from total cruft

I've been browsing various . In most of these articles, there are no reliable third-party sources. Some don't have any sources at all. They're all in pretty rough shape, and as of now violate multiple Wikipedia guidelines and policies: from WP:N to WP:V to WP:NOT#PLOT to WP:GAMEGUIDE to WP:GAMECRUFT.

Myst series

Final Fantasy series

Grand Theft Auto series

Pokemon

Half Life series

Others:

But to be more optimistic, an article like Universe of Kingdom Hearts shows that a GA quality article is possible with a few solid references for notability, and a bunch of primary or officially licensed sources to offer more detail. By that measure, an article like Ivalice or Black Mesa Research Facility might be on their way to something. But with other articles, even a merge might get into undue coverage and WP:NOT#PLOT. Some of these are candidates for deletion. But I wanted to get a little bit of feedback before getting too WP:BOLD. Randomran (talk) 21:30, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Added Tamriel to the list for similar problems, though The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind handles the setting section pretty well. Also noted GA status and any previous AfDs. Nifboy (talk) 21:40, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A full merger of all Half-Life locations is in progress here. I just need to get around to actually adding the real-world information, which I will do sometime soon. -- Sabre (talk) 23:04, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I tried to plug in a bit of critical / real-world perspective to a few of the locations in Half-Life. (Although it probably needs a copy-edit, and some fixes to the references.) I think the list collectively passes the threshold now. It needs work, but you're better off putting it out there for everyone else to contribute than tucking it away in a sandbox. Good work, BTW. Randomran (talk) 19:17, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to have a slug through reviews tomorrow, to pick out extra critical reception bits, to bolster the reception section, then I'll shove it out. Having a dedicated design section doesn't seem to work in this case, it seems to be easier to mingle the design information in the appropriate location's section. Then I just need to finish up my rewrite of the Combine... -- Sabre (talk) 19:36, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am and always have been fine with fragging the Ages of for the Myst articles; that's why none of the Myst FA's reference the articles at all. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 20:10, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I went ahead and did a straight redirect for those (and crossed them off here). I'm guessing though someone is going to come completely out of the blue and argue "No this article is totally relevant how dare you do this blah blah blah" so someone might keep an eye out for that. As for the Pokemon articles, there was a previous discussion to merge them into one that ended well as far as I know.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 20:24, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As to some of the others: Albion keeps getting recreated, so if we redirect it again it should be protected. As to the Half-Life crap... I've tried deletion and they pop out of the woodwork to flood with keeps. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 20:49, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's why I'm merging them. The Half-Life cruft is crap... at the moment. A lot of the Half-Life universe stuff is notable, just in the wrong format at the moment. AfD is the wrong way to go with them, they're all surmountable stuff if merged and otherwise cleaned up. -- Sabre (talk) 22:20, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"I'm guessing though someone is going to come completely out of the blue and argue "No this article is totally relevant how dare you do this blah blah blah""' - nope, someone's going to come completely out of the blue and argue that articles should never be deleted (which, to avoid a semantics-war, redirecting to another page basically is) without the correct policies and guidelines being followed, in this case WP:AFD. You've discussed this (briefly) here, without making anyone interested in those articles aware of your discussions. If you wish to delete those article, fine, they might well deserve it, but make certain you go through the correct channels - start deletion discussions. Bear in mind that Ages of Myst V: End of Ages was fairly recently nominated for deletion, the result of which was no consensus. TalkIslander 21:58, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's all nice and dandy on paper, but if you're just creating articles to be a directory and leaving them unfixed for months at a time then you should really start reading policies. Stating an article should remain because the subject is notable and showing evidence to that fact is one thing; saying it must be here just because is another. That AfD was, forgive my language, a clusterfuck of WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS and bad faith, and December '07 is hardly recent. All that served to show is if an AfD is fired up, people will crawl out of the woodwork to defend a subject they have no intention on improving.
It's game guide and directory material, not subject matter actually discussing the real-world relevance. In fact it's hard to tell just how it fits relevant even to this project: many of these articles are written as if they were real locations, rather than spots in a game. When you boil the game guide content out, how much is left? Is there significant discussion to the weight in the series? Conception and creation? Reception by the public?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 04:57, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Zero Wing + All your base are belong to us merger

I have recently proposed here that both articles in the headline should be merged, as both articles are excessively short and have little to no references to verify their notability. Assuming that neither of them would reach an acceptable level of quality by themselves, I proposed merging the two articles, only to be met with disapproval by minor Users and IP addresses, so I came here to consult some experienced Users on what should be done. So what should be done? Cat's Tuxedo (talk) 22:55, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I take offense to being called a minor editor. Why are you disregarding the opinions of you fellow Wikipedians just because they are "minor" editors and IP users? --Eruhildo (talk) 23:56, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'd suggest keeping 2 articles. I had a quick look on google and there's a bunch of reviews on various sites so I think there's potential to build Zero Wing up. The Mean Machines review is useful. There's even more sources out there for All Your Base. I'd suggest improving the 2 articles instead of merging. Bill (talk|contribs) 00:19, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the first statement. Please try to assume good faith and refrain from pigeonholing users as minor or major (with anons you really can't help because they actually are anonymous in our context), no matter how tempting it may be to bite their heads off. MuZemike (talk) 06:00, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal for deletion and/or removal from articles: Template:VG Reviews

User:A Man In Black has proposed that the following template be removed from the Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood article and, by logical extension, every video game article (obviously it makes no sense to have one set of guidelines or rules for one article, but not for others). Featured game articles, such as Wipeout 3, Final Fantasy XII and Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games also have this template, so clearly this is a proposal with implications for a wide range of game articles. I would appreciate it if Wikipedia editors and members of the project could have a discussion regarding this, so that in reaching a consensus, we can apply the same rules to all articles, rather than just this one. Thanks. SynergyBlades (talk) 03:46, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Or perhaps it would be more appropriate to use the template for deletion tag on the template itself to propose deletion, so the discussion could be made more prominent; if anyone thinks it more appropriate, please do so and redirect the discussion there. SynergyBlades (talk) 03:56, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
TfD is overkill. My general feeling on the topic is that Prose > All. Nifboy (talk) 04:08, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say keep it, but use it wisely. It's helpful in cases where you have mixed reception to an article and want to emphasize that to a reader, where someone will more casually read the scores and skim over the bulk of the text, or in other cases see the score and read the related commentary for it within the prose of the article (which should always be there for each related score).--Kung Fu Man (talk) 04:15, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is about the 34535324th discussion we've had of this, and my position is still the same. Review numbers are the least important part of a review, the tables are ugly, and they're pretty redundant. Plus, they're POV magnets. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:40, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Coming from left field, but how about initiating a request for comment on the usage of the template in regards to our MoS as I believe this discussion has already occurred with no consensus, result, or change?

With that said, discussing the template in general in a Sonic article is not the appropriate venue, but rather either the template's talk page or here. MuZemike (talk) 05:54, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The template's a decent compromise (yes, compromise, the seemingly hated word on policy and process on Wikipedia) between those who don't want review scores mentioned in the reception section, arguing that it lessens the quality of the prose and those who want to put all the numbers into the prose, because they believe that it is a key part of reception. This is the middle-ground - have a small selection of representative numbers (to avoid POV, basing the selection on ranges given by aggregate review score places, such as Metacritic. When I use the template, I only tend to put in the scores of the reviews I've cited in the prose anyway), but have it disconnected from the prose by putting it in template form. -- Sabre (talk) 11:23, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Advice for merge target title of Nintendo NES sports games.

I'm considering merging the NES Nintendo sports games (ie Golf, Baseball, Tennis, etc.), but can't think of a good name. I was thinking of "Sports games by Nintendo for the NES", but that seems way too wordy. - A Link to the Past (talk) 20:50, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are a bit of them. (I know Golf, Baseball, Tennis, Volleyball, Soccer, Slalom, Excitebike, 10-yard Fight, Badminton, Pro Wrestling, NES Play Action Football, NES Championship Golf, Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!! (though that would definitely stand alone), and a few Famicom sports games made by Nintendo, such as F-1 Race.) This bunch of games are not as bad as far as independent notability is concerned compared to, say, the Power Pad games or all games made by American Video Entertainment in which I merged all the game articles a while back; 95% of them had no context at all and very easily could have been deleted. I certainly understand the rationale, and I don't think there is going to be too much out there for good sources for these games. It'd much harder to find sources for old NES and Atari games than, say, Commodore 64 or ZX Spectrum games during that same timeframe because of the differences in media coverage.
I would be tempted to word it "List of NES sports games by Nintendo," but that is stretching it, as well. MuZemike (talk) 05:19, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay I'm just going to utterly oppose that on the grounds of "really unnecessary overkill?" There's the variety at the very least to consider. Is there blanketing reception for all of the games of a magnitude to warrant this? Is development info covering all of them one shot in existence? I understand where you're coming from with this, but I just really have to oppose this up front at least until some real serious discussion goes down.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 05:25, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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