Matt Lauer

Roman Catholic Church

Nominator(s): NancyHeise ^talk

previous FAC (16:52, 13 June 2008)

This article has seen substantial improvement over the past three months. New scholarly sources were added as well as two new sections and an article trim - all in response to concerns from the last FAC. It received a thorough Peer Review with the help of several veteran Wikipedia editors. Over 54 editors, including many non-Catholics, were invited to come give comments during this last peer review. I feel this article is ready now to be listed as Featured and I invite you to offer your comments on the matter here. Thank you for your time and attention. NancyHeise ^talk 00:18, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

• Support Although size will always be problematic, this is one of the largest and oldest institutions in the world and will probably have some of the largest issues and resources relating to it. So, yeah, it can't be helped. Content seems to be rather complete based on consensus. Formatting seems to be right based on consensus. Consensus has agreed to most of the stuff involved. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:28, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

• Support as per previous FAC. Nousernamesleft (talk) 00:37, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

• Support as per previous FAC. This is an article I have watchlisted for sometime now, and have followed its development closely; and I have been dismayed by the hoops set by various reviewers who want ir to be all things to all people. Frankly I though the last FAC was a disgrace, and not because of the nominator. Ceoil ^sláinte 00:43, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

• Support. This is a comprehensive and very informative article on an organisation which has had a significant impact on Western civilisation. Given the size constraints imposed by wikipedia it will never be able to satisfy everyone, but I think it well deserves to be ranked among wikipedia's best articles. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:50, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

• Strong Support this is what FA's are supposed to look and be like. The current amount of them which fail the criteria is daunting. This article covers all relevant aspects in a great manner, and pretty much references every statement. As one of the dominant religions in the world, it's something that I and others can easily relate to. Well done. I just had one quick question: Could/Should the history section be at the beginning of the article, not half-way through? Domiy (talk) 01:41, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Thats not good reasoning Domiy. Ceoil ^sláinte 01:43, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Don't fret too much. It seems clear that he is supporting over "look and be like" and not the rest. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 01:47, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 'Referencing' and 'Coverage' (my own terms) part of the FA criteria? I'm pretty sure it is, so supporting an article because it covers those two especially well is indeed good reasoning. Need I start on my already raised discussions on how it's clear that some FA's are based on preference? If I was going for the "Look and be like" act then I would have supported and put 'as per previous comments by others' after such. I didn't do that did I? I supported for my own reasons, both personal and criteria-wise (more of the latter). Please read the comments carefully before making your own comments. It's not a rule on Wikipedia, it's a rule of life, one which is kind of hard-and dangerous-to fail. Domiy (talk) 08:02, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Domiy, I am so very much not going to argue with anyone's support vote! NancyHeise ^talk 13:13, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Image comment - I don't feel Image:Das Schwarze Korps Eugenio Pacelli Judenfreund Feind des Nationalsozialismus.jpg is warranted per WP:NFCC#8, and thus the article fails FA criteria 3, otherwise images checkout fine. This is a hugely difficult article to meet FAC#4, because of the age and scope of the subject, dont feel down-hearted if it doent pass. Fasach Nua (talk) 12:21, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Apart from the criterion 8 issue, which is certainly arguable, I would query the non-free nature of this image, which comes from an SS newspaper in 1937. Intellectual property rights of Nazi party material are greatly complicated by the war booty legislation of several countries passed after WW2, when the normal copyrights were abrogated. Generally this material is Government-released to PD in the US, and any remaining copyrights are held by the state in Germany and the UK. So this should be PD in US terms at least, if the scan was made from a US copy. I'm not sure how the terms (length) work in UK & Germany. I'm pretty sure the image status has not been assessed with this in mind. Has this issue come up before on Commons etc? Johnbod (talk) 13:07, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

There is a possibility it is PD, but you are correct it is complicated. If it is to be used as PD, the onus is on the person to changing the licence to prove it. Fasach Nua (talk) 06:41, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I thought the image was very necessary since Pius XII has presently been called "Hitler's Pope" which would have been a surprise to the people of that age who felt differently according to the scholars whose works I read on the subject before creating the paragraph. The image grabs the reader, makes the page interesting and conveys a message that words cannot begin to approach, most notably by exposing the ugly racism of the Nazi regime. I have asked a veteran Wikipedia image expert to come and offer her comments in this matter so maybe that will help resolve the issue here. Thanks. NancyHeise ^talk 13:35, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

OPPOSE - I don't believe that the image "conveys a message that words cannot begin to approach", and therefore I oppose promotion, failure to meet featured article criteria 3 Fasach Nua (talk) 06:41, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

The correct criterion is "Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding." Where does "conveys a message that words cannot begin to approach" come from? It sounds like ad copy for perfume or something. Johnbod (talk) 10:37, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

This comes from NFCC#1, "Could the subject be adequately conveyed by text without using the non-free content at all?" Fasach Nua (talk) 11:31, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't "come from" there at all - it is a wild extension of anything said in the policy. Please don't misquote. How many words do you think would be needed to convey the impact of the picture at all adequately? But in any case, German newspaper images seem to have a copyright term of 50 years, so it should be free. Johnbod (talk) 00:50, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with the above opposition on the grounds that the image does indeed convey a unique message. The entire feature of the image is that it is an original poster, which conveys the point of view and overall significance of the issues of Nazi's during WWII. It is clearly not specifically replaceable and serves an important purpose. Fasach Nua, Wikipedia always needs a reviewer who cracks down on a certain issue at hand. Yours is the issue of images, and I'm sure your work is appreciated. However, please learn to grant slight leniency in more cases and accept that you can be wrong at times, so you don't always have the right to control FAC's the way you want simply over one issue. This article gains support for following the majority of the criteria, opposing on the grounds of an issue which is not even certain or actually going against the criteria is not actionable.Domiy (talk) 10:20, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Meeting "the majority of the criteria" is not grounds for promotion, meeting the criteria is the only grounds for promotion, and if the article fails criteria 3, then it fails the criteria for promotion. Fasach Nua (talk) 11:31, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

The image was vetted by the last FAC process where it was approved by an experienced editor that SandyGeorgia asked to come to the page and go over the images for us. It has also passed through the extensive peer review and article trim since the last FAC. A consensus of editors approves of its use. NancyHeise ^talk 16:34, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

WP:CONSENSUS is wrapped up in policy such as WP:NFCC, not the opinion of a small group of editors in one particular place at one particular time. I have registered my oppose above, as the article fails to meet featured article criteria three. Fasach Nua (talk) 09:30, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments Fasach Nua. Im sorry we can not make everyone happy here. There are some people who wanted certain content or images that were overruled by consensus. I wanted some things in the article that were eventually chopped and I also had to submit to consensus. Please understand that we all have certain points of view and that Wikipedia rules do apply here to help an article reflect consensus. That image has overwhelming support for inclusion in the article.NancyHeise ^talk 15:52, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Support - I reviewed the sourcing at the PR and it is better. Meets the standards. I spot checked some of the sourced statements against the sources, and all are as accurate as can be when you are paraphrasing. I read through the whole article and made a huge pile of suggestions, which were implemented when they did not conflict with other reviewers. The article is within hailing distance of being a decent size, it's cut almost 3000 words in the PR. No article on this subject is going to please everyone, but it's vastly improved since the first time it came to FAC, and I have no hesitations supporting. It goes without saying the sources seem fine, and the links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:57, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

• Comment, just to be picky:

in Catholic institutions, personnel and demographics, I don't understand what is meant by "women religious" in the sentence "The Church in Asia is a significant minority among other religions yet its vibrance is evidenced by the large proportion of women religious, priests and parishes to total Catholic population"

in Late Medieval and Renaissance, en-dashes are used in "anti–Catholic" and "Counter–Reformation", which should be hyphenated.--Grahame (talk) 13:56, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Your dictionary should help, although this should be made clearer for those unfamiliar with the term. Johnbod (talk) 13:59, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Grahamec, good comments here. I changed "women religious" to "religious sisters" to make this clearer and I eliminated the ndashes replacing them with hyphens. Thanks for your time and attention. NancyHeise ^talk 15:29, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

• Support Wow! This is an amazing piece of work. Dincher (talk) 17:41, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

• Support – per last time. A dramatic improvement and the trim was certainly worthwhile. Caulde 20:42, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

• Comment in the section Ordained members and Holy Orders there is a reference to priests and bishops conducting "wake and funeral services" I've only been to one Catholic funeral, but I thought the wake was a less formal matter conducted in the pub rather than the church, would memorial or remembrance be less ambiguous? ϢereSpielChequers 22:08, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi WereSpielChequers, thanks for the inquiry. Yes, "wake and funeral services" is correct as it is the term used by the reference (United States Conference of Catholic Bishops) to which the sentence is cited. I'll reproduce it for you here so you can see for yourself [1]. NancyHeise ^talk 22:42, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I hadn't noticed this, but it reads oddly to me too. In the UK & Ireland the wake is either or both of a party held at the home or a pub before or after the funeral, or a viewing of the body, not a service. Better restrict it to the usual term & just say funeral. Wake (ceremony) is not much use. Johnbod (talk) 23:23, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Nancy, I can't argue with that! However I have a new query in the section Roman Catholic Church#Catholic institutions, personnel and demographics is the phrase "The Church in Asia is a significant minority among other religions", I think I can see why the Church might put it that way, but should we? ϢereSpielChequers 23:14, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I have simplified "wake and funeral services" to read just "funeral services" per your and Johnbod's comments here. I don't think it really changes the accuracy of the statement all that much since a wake could be considered a type of funeral service. Regarding the Church in Asia sentence, that is referenced to the Froehle book on Church statistics produced by the same source used by all major newspapers when citing Church statistics. I am not sure what you are suggesting here. Do you prefer to have it reworded? I am open to suggestions but I can't really think of a better way to say it myself, I welcome your ideas here. Thanks. NancyHeise ^talk 00:29, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Ideally it needs a percentage of Asians who are Catholic, or if stats are available the Catholic church is the xth largest religion in Asia after Hinduism, Shia Islam etc etc. The current sentence reads like a church version of events rather than an independent view. That said I'm not convinced it is sensible to summarise the religion of a continent in that way... Perhaps an atlas of human geography would be worth looking at? ϢereSpielChequers 17:26, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, I added a percentage of Asians, good comment. I think you were maybe trying to say that the paragraph looked like a POV? That was not our intention, I thought it was "brilliantly" worded but I see I have failed to impress! :) I changed the paragraph somewhat and it now reads : "The Church in Asia is a significant minority among other religions comprising only 3% of all Asians, yet its vibrance is evidenced by the large proportion of religious sisters, priests and parishes to total Catholic population.[174] From 1975–2000, total Asian population grew by 61% with an Asian Catholic population increase of 104%.[178] Challenges faced include oppression in communist countries like North Korea and China.[179]" Does it still look POVish to you or have we reached "brilliant" yet? NancyHeise ^talk 16:34, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

That's much better thanks, I'm happy to concede "Brilliant" as in my eyes this is one of if not the best of the dozens of FA candidates that I've read, but I'm sticking with comment as I'm not sure if I yet feel qualified to vote on FAs. I've added two other links to the Mexican and Chinese bits though neither is an era I know much of so there may be a better link available. Two somewhat contentious areas that this covers are sex abuse and nineteenth century anti clericalism. In the sex abuse section I've mainly heard about things in a British and Irish context so was interested to hear that it was even bigger in the US, but I was wondering if allegations was the right word to use? Since some of these cases have resulted in jail sentences is there a risk that using the word allegations would imply that there is some doubt as to whether these incidents happened? Also in the nineteenth century bit it seems to concentrate on the episodes where the church lost power, without balancing this with processes like Catholic Emancipation in Protestant countries such as the British isles where the same ideology of separation of church and state meant repealing anti Catholic legislation (though this gets a brief nonchronological mention in Roman Catholic Church#Late Medieval and Renaissance). Also the Religious wars seem to end at circa 1700 rather than covering more modern religious wars such the Swiss civil war and the recent Bosnian War. ϢereSpielChequers 11:40, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your help with the links and your valuable comments. Regarding the sex abuse allegations, it is the right word to use because not every instance of sex abuse resulted in a lawsuit - some people just told the media or the bishop and the article text reflects the wording used by the sources. I did have a whole sentence that stated that many priests were defrocked, convicted or went to jail. That sentence was chopped in the article trim which was an effort by several editors, including non-Catholics who worked together to try to get the article size down to a reasonable kB. Evidently it was difficult or impossible for those with dialups to open the page until we cut the size. We even lost a lot of pictures in the process. The sex abuse section is wikilinked and consensus felt that it was sufficient to allow Reader to go read all the details of that issue. It received the same treatment as all other controversies in accordance with WP:Summary style. I also wikilinked Catholic emancipation in the Renaissance section per your comment here and the French Revolution is followed by info about Napolean re-establishing the Catholic church with wikilink to Concordat of 1801. Re: the Swiss civil war and the Bosnian war, these were conflicts in which the Church was not involved. If our scholarly sources mentioned an event, we gave creedence to that. Likewise, if something is not mentioned in these works, we consider that an indication that we should not either. We followed the lead on what to include or not based on our sources and, in the case of the sex abuse scandals and the Pius XII scandal, on how much media coverage attended the issues.NancyHeise ^talk 15:53, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi Nancy, Scandals would be shorter than allegations and covers the issue of not all accused having been found guilty. The problem I have with allegations is that when combined with the idea of innocent until proven guilty it would imply to me a very different response than I understand the church and the courts to have taken. As for the nineteenth and twentieth century religious wars, I'm not sure I follow the logic as to which are included or omitted. If we are focusing on the Church as an institution then the two most important wars of the last 150 years would be the Risorgimento in which the church lost the Papal states on the Adriatic coast and then the Italian invasion after the withdrawal of the French Garrison during the Franco-Prussian war which cost the Pope all the remaining papal territories except for the Vatican itself. However I think that could be covered in a single sentence "Between 1860 and 1871 as a consequence of Italian unification the Pope lost all the Papal territories in Italy except for the Vatican city state. If we are covering wars in which Religion is a major motivation then I fail to see why the Mexican war in included in some detail but the examples that I gave are omitted, and especially I'm concerned at the way the Spanish Civil war is covered, that reads almost as if it was an anticlerical war rather than Fascist Coup against a coalition of regionalists, Basque nationalists, Socialists, Liberals, Anarchists and Communists (Beevor makes the point that in the Basque region at least the Catholic Church was on the side of Democracy). Also there is a sentence that seems to lump secularist and Marxist regimes together as negative to the church. While the Marxist regimes were certainly negative about religions there have been many countries with Catholic minorities where Secularism and its emphasis on Religious Freedom have been very positive for Catholicism - India being the most obvious example. ϢereSpielChequers 18:29, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

The Italian remarks are rather confusing the RCC with the Papacy (not the only ones on this page to do so) - obviously losing the Papal States made a big difference to the latter, but very little to the former, unlike wars which affected the ability of ordinary Catholics to practise their faith in various parts of the world. This is an odd time to be trumpeting the religious freedom of India, given the Anti-Christian violence in Karnataka of the last few weeks! Johnbod (talk) 18:49, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi Johnbod. As I said India is an obvious example of where secularism and religious freedom for all has been more positive for Catholics where they are a religious minority. Your example Anti-Christian violence in Karnataka is about the treatment of Christians under a Hindu Nationalist BJP government. ϢereSpielChequers 20:00, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Nonetheless, the "Centre", as Indians like to call it, seems powerless to do stop it. Johnbod (talk) 20:04, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Further questions Reading the final judgment and afterlife section, I wanted to ask a few additional questions. In Marria Simma's book "Get us out of here", she states that souls often judge themselves after death. Instead of being sent by Jesus to purgatory or hell, they rather make the decision for themselves. Those who believe in God strongly and did follow in his command in earthly life automatically know they should go to Heaven, and hence are sent there. Poor souls in Purgatory are similar. Although they were followers of God, they did sin excessively throughout their life and hence do not feel that they are worthy enough of Heaven just yet, so they decide for themselves to be purified in purgatory. Those who go to hell are completely lost in faith and never believed in God and deliberately went against him throughout life. They go to Hell themselves as they would like to continue their evil ways and surroundings. It's all in the book I stated, I just don't remember the page number (Oops!). Additionally, how come the article doesn't include anything about apparitions? They indeed do have relevance to the Catholic church as they must be passed by it to be considered true. And there have been a fair number of them throughout recent history. Maria Simma again actually spoke to the souls in Purgatory, and this is a fundamental belief in the church. The same goes for the ongoing decisions regarding the apparitions of the Virgin Mary in Medjugorje, Bosnia and Herzegovina. Why have you not at least mentioned the process for this? Domiy (talk) 22:49, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

That seems to be an idea similar to Contrapasso. However, there is nothing on the Catechism or in Aquinas that really supports the above. It would also deny the power of prayer in saving the departed. I would like a link to where the Catholic Church has reviewed the work and approved of it. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:04, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your inquiry Domiy, first, the final judgement and afterlife section, like all of the Beliefs sections, is referenced only to books that have officially been declared by the Catholic Church to be free of doctrinal or moral error. This stamp of approval, the Nihil obstat and imprimatur, can be found on the same page that has all of the book's publishing information like the copyright, publisher and ISBN. We felt that in creating an encyclopedia page, it was necessary to use only these kinds of books since it would have been very easy to find zillions of sources about Catholic belief that do not contain them. For example, Hans Kung, the famous Catholic theologian has written several books on Catholic belief but not everyone knows that he is a theologian who has been banned by the Church. Someone in the last FAC wanted me to include his works in the creation of the Beliefs section and we could not reasonably accommodate that request without running the risk of creating a beliefs section that was incorrect according to official Catholic doctrine. The book you suggested by Marria Simma does not have this official stamp of approval. Apparitions is a subject that has not been suggested to include in the article until your comment just now. I agree that this is part of the Catholic faith and I am open to including a sentence or two on the subject. However, some might say it violates summary style since we already have links to Lourdes, Fatima, and Roman Catholic Mariology as well as a whole paragraph on Mary in the Prayer and worship section. What do others here want to see, I'd like a consensus either for or against. Do we think the links are enough or do we need a sentence? NancyHeise ^talk 00:46, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, I reworded the pilgrimage sentence at the end of the section on Mary and the Saints in the Prayer and Worship section of the article. It now reads "The Church has affirmed the validity of Marian apparitions such as those at Lourdes, Fatima and Guadalupe[121] while others such as Međugorje are still under investigation. Affirmed or not, however, pilgrimages to these places are popular Catholic devotions.[122] " I added a new reference to the Dr. Alan Schreck book as well as wikilinks to Marian apparitions and Medugorje. The link to Marian apparitions goes into great detail about how the Church decides what is valid and what is not. NancyHeise ^talk 01:57, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Excellently Done. You've pretty much hit the nail right on the head there. Although, it may be a little lose (lol). Perhaps you could very quickly be specific about what exactly people have had apparitions of. We certainly don't want to make mistakes to people as they may think apparitions can refer to people actually seeing God. Marian apparition does specifically refer to seeing the Virgin Mary, perhaps you could make this a tiny spot clearer for non-Catholics or others who are less knowledged. I know it appears immediately in the wikilinked article, but I'm not a big fan of taking this way out and expecting the reader to go to other articles to find out what something is. Since this is going/attempting to be a featured article, you should be as broad as possible and not rely too heavily on other articles. Domiy (talk) 02:27, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Right, good comment, the sentence now reads "The Church has affirmed the validity of Marian apparitions (supernatural experiences of Mary by one or more persons) such as those..." - NancyHeise ^talk 12:33, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Well done. Well I'm completely pleased with the article and I maintain my strong Support. Domiy (talk) 23:45, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

• Support Strong, well-balanced, article that relates information and provides references very well. Benjamin ^{Scrīptum est - Fecī} 23:10, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
• Support as per last nomination. Can't believe it could be improved since then but it is. Student7 (talk) 01:56, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - I continue to have the same concerns that I have expressed in previous FACs and on the article's talk page before the current push for FA status. (1) the temporal and geographic variation in Catholic beliefs, practices, and influence is largely elided and overlooked; (2) the history section of the article is severely lacking in terms of key trends such as (a) the centralization of papal authority and the development of the church as a global institution rather than an Italian or European one, or (b) the growth and development of the church hierarchy, in particular the College of Cardinals, and the various economic and political drivers associated with it, and (3) the article is still largely written from the perspective of a Catholic looking out on the world, hence the overemphasis of doctrine and social teaching, and the neglect of the vast economic, political, cultural influence of the church. In this area, the article has doubtlessly improved since the first FAC, but is still far off the mark. Where such issues are not neglected, they are treated from a comically one-sided perspective. For example, the article cherry-picks in attributing the elimination of human sacrifice and other practices to the church rather than delivering any meaningful or nuanced analysis of the church's complicated role in colonization, the development of European identity, or relations with other religions. Finally, with relation to the modern church, it is clear that the article gives undo emphasis both to points of view and to subject matter. The discussion of PPXII and the image in particular (which I agree does not meet the fair use policies) is essentially a rebuttal to one specific criticism of Pope Pius XII rather than a true top-level summary of his significance as a pontiff. Again I believe that this article has improved, and that the content and effort that has gone into it could have spawned a dozen featured articles on Catholicism, but I am unready at this point to support this article, believing that the standard should be higher for more important topics. My concerns about summary style in previous nominations have been remedied in many respects, but I believe that the use of summary style would need further improvement if the current content were written from a more balanced perspective with reference to point-of-view, global coverage, and intertemporal variation. Savidan 16:47, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

• I would be interested to know which of the FA criteria you believe support the view that different standards should apply to different articles. I would also be interested to know how you reconcile the inconsistency in apparently demanding "a true top-level summary of his [ Pius XII] significance as a pontiff" in an article not about Pope Pius XII. To include such an analysis would be in breach of criteria 4. Still, as you're making up new rules as you go along, I don't suppose that matters very much. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 17:07, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

• Malleus, for the purpose of clarity, I am referrinng to 1b ("Comprehensive") and comprehensiveness as it intersects with 2b ("Structure") and 4 ("Summary Style"). As for Pius XII, maybe its true that he need not even be mentioned in the article about the RCC. However, it seems absurd to me that it would be deemed necessary for for there to be a comprehensive defense of his record during WWII and nothing else. If anything is said about it, I would have assumed it would have been more open-ended and more about his importance to the RCC as a whole (i.e. the subject of the article) rather than a specific view point about a specific pope. This gets into my concerns about the apparent cherry-picking (perhaps to harsh a word, but exactly my concern) about the points that are deemed worthy of inclusion in this article. Savidan 19:27, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

• Savidan - I just wanted to note that the "cherry-picking" is a tad improper in describing this. Most of the inclusion is based on consensus, with consensus working on the trimming. If you have a suggestion, please remember that consensus works on the whole, and right now you are one among many. If you want to elaborate on the need for this and see if anyone else agrees, the talk page is a very appropriate place. However, I would not want to move towards including more (since this is a large page) unless over 8 editors agree that it is necessary at this time. The number may seem arbitrary, but that would represent about a quarter of the participants on this page right now. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:35, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

• Consensus as a principle is fine. Taking a straw poll issue-by-issue, however, will not determine the appropriate level of detail that a summary-style article should devote to specific issues. Unfortunately, it appears that this article has grown on an ad-hoc basis followed by various rounds of content being chopped. This has resulted in rather lop-sided and uneven coverage of sub-topics. I do not mean to disrespect any specific consensus that has evolved on any specific issue, but rather to point out that it appears that relatively little attention by comparison has been paid to the structuring and division of content within the article based on importance. Savidan 19:42, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Savidan, I appreciate your efforts to help improve the article, which I have to say were very sparse. I am not saying this in any disrespectful manner, but simply need to point out that you were not a common editor on the page who was giving us advice all the time and when you did, your comments were overruled by consensus of other editors. I have not been able to create an article to your liking because of your lack of involvement and because Wikipedia policy WP:consensus required me to respect the opinions of the vast majority of editors to the page whose opinions differed from yours. NancyHeise ^talk 17:10, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Nancy, you are absolutely right that I have not had the time to actively write the article with you and the other main contributors. In another universe, where I had infinite time to devote to Wikipedia, I surely would have been more involved. However, consensus does not overrule the FAC criteria. If the article is not comprehensive, neutral, or written in summary style (by which I mean writing about connected topics as they relate to the primary topic of the article, and maintaining a uniform level of detail based on an objective division of content, rather than devoting multiple sentences to specific points of view on specific sub-topics while ignoring others), then groupthink alone should not be sufficient for FA status. Savidan 19:34, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Savidan, you seem to want to substitute "the perspective of a Catholic looking out on the world" with the perspective of the world looking at the Church from outside, and not much interested in its religious message. The article, as you may know from the talk page, has been under enormous pressure to reduce its size, and there is unfortunately only room for very brief surveys of all these areas, but to suggest that "doctrine" and the small space alloted to to "social teaching" are reduced in favour of the more on the "economic ... influence" of the church seems strange indeed. Johnbod (talk) 19:39, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I would hope that it would be possible to write an article which does not conform to either of those descriptions. However, it is apparent that the first has prevailed over large swathes of the article. I am very conscious of the concerns about article size. That is why I think this article should be a broad overview of the main topic that favors broad coverage over depth on any one subtopic. If you are pressed for space when writing about a large topic, then you shouldn't go into lengthy digressions (no matter how well sourced and written) over any one subtopic. Savidan 19:47, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Further to Savidan's concerns: 1) Catholic beliefs do not vary geographically, as is borne out in all sources, Trends in Catholic influence and practices are covered in the history section as relevantly as befits their notability. (2) the centralization of papal authority is covered to the extent necessary in the history section, as is the development of the church as a global institution. As far as the growth and development of the church hierarchy and the College of Cardinals are concerned, What vital and notable facts have been omitted? (3) the "overemphasis of doctrine and social teaching" as opposed to "the vast economic, political, cultural influence of the church." is an opinion rather than a breach of criteria. What is the right balance? Editors feel that most readers will want to know about the beliefs, structure and history of the church . We have decided to concentrate on verifiable facts rather than trying to provide a "nuanced analysis of the church's complicated role in colonization, the development of European identity, or relations with other religions." That is really beyond the scope of this article and would demand sifting a morass of largely unsubstantiated opinion. On Pope Pius XII the inclusion has been made in view of the notability of recent criticisms of the Church from some quarters on the issue of WW2, criticisms which editors at previous reviews have asked should be covered. WP Notability, Due Weight, and the need for factually verifiable content have been the prime considerations in deciding what can and cannot be included in a space-limited article. I think Savidan needs to state what specific important facts that he believes are missing from the article if he wishes his objections to be considered actionable. Xandar 21:58, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Xandar, Malleus, Ottava Rima and Johnbod. It is impossible for me to act on Savidan's oppose because he does not specify his objections and consensus of editors do not support implementation of his suggestions which I find to be very vague. The recent extensive peer review and article trim was the result of several editors (including Ottava Rima, Ealdgyth, Karanacs, Dweller, Gimmetrow, Gabr-el, Xandar, Malleus, Johnbod and myself) working together to form a consensus on what should and should not be included in the article and everyone came to agreement on the content before we submitted to FAC. WP:consensus supports current article format, structure, size, weight, sources and text. NancyHeise ^talk 23:17, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to clarify that I have not read the history section recently, so I am not a party to any consensus on it. I did think that the rest of the article is much improved. From what the history section previously looked like, I think that Savidan has made some very good points. The history section often went into too much detail about certain issues without doing a good job of presenting the overarching themes in the history (like the impact of the RCC on medieval European society and politics). I repeat, though, that I have not had the time to read the history section recently. Karanacs (talk) 01:21, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

The impact of the RCC on Medieval society and politics is easy enough to insert. I had some of this info in the article but the nature of such information relies almost exclusively on scholarly opinion and there are many different opinions. The editors of the page, (Karanacs too) decided that we needed to eliminate these opinions and just stick to the facts. The quote in question that she was opposed to was Francis Oakley and Thomas Bokenkotter's two different comments on how, even through eras of internal corruption, the Catholic Church succeeded in bringing the Gospel to the world, an event that had a significant impact upon society and politics. Another quote was from Diarmaid MacCulloch who stated that the end result of the Reformation wars was the unique creation of the Western notion of Tolerance. Consensus of editors specifically decided to include only facts, not scholarly opinions. Thus we left only those facts stated in the Cultural influence section referenced to a university textbook and Owen Chadwick. If you would like me to reinsert the previously eliminated opinions, we need a consensus because it was not my idea to eliminate them. NancyHeise ^talk 02:20, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

That isn't what Savidan is talking about. The two instances you've mentioned are very oriented toward the religious/moral issues. What Savidan mentioned above are the political ramifications of the RCC, especially in the Middle Ages. The section as it read a few months ago was doing a lot better at describing some of this, but it still read like a string of details rather than a broader overview of the RCC's political influence. I'm going to try to reread the article in the next few days - hopefully it is moved more toward that goal. Karanacs (talk) 02:27, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I have placed some tidbits of information on this FAC's talk page that Savidan and Karanacs may want to consider including in the article if they wish to specify what it is that the article is lacking. My efforts there were to try and help bring out the specific complaint so we can then address it either by adding something to the article or coming to consensus against such addition. I hope this helps. NancyHeise ^talk 03:22, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

The article clearly makes many subjective choices about which specifics to emphasize; that much does not seem to have been contested in the bulk of preceding discussion. In an article about an institution spanning nearly two millenia and touching nearly every corner of the earth, the present choices of emphasis don't make much sense to me. There is a HUGE paragraph and non-free image serving no other purpose than to list nearly every possible defense of Pius XII's actions during the Holocaust, but there is next to no coverage about the role of the Church in the development of European monarchies, foreign exchange markets, etc. It is obvious that the content choices made in this article do not reflect an objective attempt to determine the most notable features of the church's history, but rather represent a motley selection of axes to grind. I could explain further how the Pius XII paragraph is rather one-sided, but it strikes me as an even bigger concern that such a large portion of this article is devoted to this topic in the first place. This problem cannot be reduced to a short and simple list of comma fixes and word choices; it is clear that the organization and content choices of this article need to be rethought systematically: hence my ongoing point about the importance of summary style. Savidan 04:08, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Like yourself, I am always ready to see more on the the Middle Ages, and this version does now mention the tussles between church and state then for the first time, but we have to recognise most readers are more interested in the 20th century than the 12th. Personally I wouldn't consider the Church's infuence on "foreign exchange markets" - not I think much mentioned by Fernand Braudel, my main source of information on the matter - as demanding space given the constraints of the history section in particular. I don't think we have anything much on this in the History of the RCC article, which would be the place to expand it. Johnbod (talk) 10:43, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Savidan, you need to be specific about your oppose, we can not act on it until you do and the FAC instructions require reviewers to be specific. So far, you have given us broad swaths of disapproval but have not asked for any specifics to include. I have some comments to offer you:

• The paragraph you are saying is about Pius XII is not about Pius XII but about WWII and the Church. Wikipedia policy requires us to include all notable criticisms and the criticism of the Church and Pius XII is very recent and notable. As such, we were careful to include all facts relating to that criticism. I would like to know which facts in that paragraph you think we should eliminate to make the article better? I think that any eliminations will make the article less interesting, less valuable and possibly distort that truth. Because that paragraph has survived an extensive peer review and thorough trim with the help of many editors (listed above), I think it is safe to say that it should stay in present form. The picture was also vetted by the community including some picture experts who passed the picture in the last FAC.
• Here is a list of the sections of History in the article text that discuss exactly what you are asking for

1)Early Middle Ages:

• "The new monasteries preserved classical craft and artistic skills while maintaining intellectual culture within their schools, scriptoria and libraries. As well as providing a focus for spiritual life, they functioned as agricultural, economic and production centers, particularly in remote regions, becoming major conduits of civilization.[220]"
• "Charlemagne, who had been crowned in 800 by the pope attempted to unify Western Europe through the common bond of Christianity, creating an improved system of education and establishing unified laws. However imperial interest created a problem for the church as succeeding emperors sought to impose increasingly tight control over the popes.[227][228]"

2)High Middle Ages:

• "Monasteries introduced new technologies and crops, fostered the creation and preservation of literature and promoted economic growth. Monasteries, convents and cathedrals still operated virtually all schools and libraries.[237][238] After 1100, some of these higher schools developed into universities, the direct ancestors of the modern Western institutions"
• "Reform efforts sparked by Cluny intensified internal Church efforts to eliminate the practice of lay investiture, or the practice of laymen selecting bishops. Considered by reformers to be a source of church corruption, lay investiture was a powerful source of dominance over the Church by secular rulers.[247] Pope Gregory VII issued a decree against the practice in 1075 which contributed to a century and a half long struggle between popes and secular rulers. The matter was eventually settled with the Concordat of Worms in 1122 which decreed that elections of bishops would be conducted under canon law.[248] "
• "Over time, other inquisitions were launched by the Church or secular rulers to prosecute heretics, to respond to the threat of Muslim invasion or for political purposes.[255] In the 14th century, King Philip IV of France created an inquisition for his suppression of the Knights Templar.[254] King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella formed an inquisition in 1480, originally to deal with distrusted ex-Jewish and ex-Muslim converts"

3)Late Medieval and Renaissance

• "Beginning in the late 15th century, European explorers and missionaries spread Catholicism to the Americas, Asia, Africa and Oceania. Pope Alexander VI had awarded colonial rights over most of the newly discovered lands to Spain and Portugal.[269] Under the patronato system, however, state authorities, not the Vatican, controlled all clerical appointments in the new colonies.[270]"
• "In 1521 the Spanish explorer Ferdinand Magellan made the first Catholic converts in the Philippines.[277] The following year, the first Franciscan missionaries arrived in Mexico, establishing schools, model farms and hospitals."
• "Toward the latter part of the 17th century, Pope Innocent XI reformed abuses by the Church, including simony, nepotism and the lavish papal expenditures that had caused him to inherit a large papal debt.[306] He promoted missionary activity, tried to unite Europe against the Turkish invasions, and condemned religious persecution of all kinds.[306] In 1685 King Louis XIV of France revoked the Edict of Nantes, ending a century-long experiment in religious toleration. This and other religious conflicts of the Reformation era provoked a backlash against Christianity, which helped spawn the violent anti-clericalism of the French Revolution. Direct attacks on the wealth of the Church and associated grievances led to the wholesale nationalisation of church property in France.[307]"

4)Enlightenment

• "In the Americas, Franciscan priest Junípero Serra founded a series of new missions in cooperation with the Spanish government and military.[310] These missions brought grain, cattle and a new way of living to the Indian tribes of California. San Francisco was founded in 1776 and Los Angeles in 1781. However, in bringing Western civilization to the area, the missions have been held responsible for the loss of nearly a third of the native population, primarily through disease.[311]"
• "In China, despite Jesuit efforts to find compromise, the Chinese Rites controversy led the Kangxi Emperor to outlaw Christian missions in 1721.[312] "
• "In a challenge to Spanish and Portuguese policy, Pope Gregory XVI, began to appoint his own candidates as bishops in the colonies, condemned slavery and the slave trade in the 1839 papal bull In Supremo Apostolatus, and approved the ordination of native clergy in the face of government racism.[315]"

5)Industrial age

• "The Communist rise to power in China of 1949 led to the expulsion of all foreign missionaries, "often after cruel and farcical 'public trials'".[339] In an effort to further detach Chinese Catholics, the new government created the Patriotic Church independent of the worldwide Catholic Church.[339] Rome subsequently rejected its bishops.[340] The Cultural Revolution of the 1960s encouraged gangs of teenagers to eliminate all places of worship and turn their occupants into labourers. When Chinese churches eventually reopened they remained under the control of the Communist party's Patriotic Church, and many Catholic pastors and priests continued to be sent to prison for refusing to break allegiance with Rome.[340]"

6)Catholicism today

• "The Church continues to occupy a unique place in society. As in ages past, the pope remains an international leader who regularly receives heads of state from around the world. As the representative of the Holy See, he also holds a seat at, and occasionally addresses, the United Nations.[371]"

This list shows that the article has not neglected the political or economical effects of the Church. If you can point out for us some notable fact we have omitted, we would be glad to include more info as long as it does not violate WP:summary style and the consensus of editors agrees to the addition. We have all already gone through the article and feel that what is missing is covered via summary style through the wikilinks to other pages throughout the article. Article size was of great concern to several people and we agreed to present content and size after much compromise and discussion. NancyHeise ^talk 16:06, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Savidan has several times been asked to supply specific actionable points in his oppose by stating specific notable facts which he would like inclluded or excluded, however the only things forthcoming have been vague generalisms that are totally unactionable, such as to "systematically rethink" the article - presumably based upon guesswork as to what precisely he thinks an article he likes would look like. I would suggest that the range of topics covered in this article is comparable to that in other major encyclopedias, and that without the specific criticisms that have been asked for, Savidan's oppose is in the nature of a personal critique, and not actionable.Xandar 22:40, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

• Support - While I do think that the extensive work done on the article in response to its failed FA's in the past have been helpful, I believe the article is ready for featured status now and simply because it can be endlessly improved, doesn't mean it should be here. Featured Status criteria is met, perfection and flawless are not among them, and it's time to pass this article. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 12:10, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
• Support I have been watching the development of this article for a long time and fully support the changes it has been going through and the effort the editors having been making to come to a true concensus. Marauder40 (talk) 17:25, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. The article is greatly improved since the last FAC, especially regarding trimming excessive detail. I have to agree with other reviewers, however, that the article, especially the history section, is still written primarily from the point of view of the Catholic church, without appropriate weight being given to the views of secular religious historians. The dominant editors of the article have consistently thwarted this argument by framing it as a Reliable Sources issue rather than a Neutral Point of View issue. Yes, Catholic authors are more important here (by RS criteria), but that does not overrule the Neutral Point of View policy. The argument that "there isn't room" to present both points of view is disingenuous as the situation was exactly the same when the history section was twice as long. I won't belabor the individual points as they have already been well argued and rejected numerous times (here, in the previous FAC, and on the article talk page). The response is always "our sources are better" or "consensus doesn't support it". Your very loose definition of "consensus" cannot overrule the NPOV policy or the comprehensiveness requirement. Also I would like to point out that the History of the Roman Catholic Church sub-article seems to have abandoned any pretense of NPOV, and basically reads like a church primer on its own history. It even presents Jesus's resurrection from the dead as a simple fact without any qualification. Although that article is not up for FAC here, it is a stark reflection of the POV that is being promoted in this article. Kaldari (talk) 17:35, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Apart from Nancy moving stuff over from here, that article has been "under different managemnent" so please don't drag it in here. Is this all about say AD 0-400? You probably better had mention some issues that concern you in the current article, since in fact a lot has changed since the last FAC. Johnbod (talk) 18:02, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, this primarily concerns AD 0-400. There needs to be some type of substantial discussion of the secular point of view for that time period, not just a few sentence fragments tacked onto the orthodox POV. Kaldari (talk) 18:17, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Kaldari for your comments here. I would like to ask you to be specific in your oppose because that is what FA criteria asks of reviewers to allow nominators to make changes. Are you suggesting that we ignore consensus and WP:Reliable source examples and WP:RS when deciding on which authors books to use? The Wikipedia criteria states that those books that are considered more scholarly are to be used over and above those that are not and gives us guidance on this. Which secular author would you like to see included in this article? Which POV have we not covered in our article? You need to help us understand your position if you want us to be able to act on your oppose. Thanks. I provide the following list of non-Catholic and secular authors used in creation of this article

• Roland Bainton
• Christopher Black
• Frank Bruni
• Henry Chadwick (theologian)
• Owen Chadwick
• J Duncan M Derrett
• Thomas Goldstein (Historian of Science)
• Justo Gonzalez
• Jeremy Johns
• Jacques Le Goff
• John H. Leith
• Ronald Numbers
• Henry Mayr-Harting
• John McClintock
• John McManners
• Mark Noll
• Philip Schaff
• Simon Schama
• Rodney Stark
• Timothy Ware
• Robert Wilken

I will finish this list later. But as you can see, we have not neglected non-Catholic authors or viewpoints. Some of our 79 books do not mention the religion practiced by the author so it is impossible to know that author's faith, even when googling their name. NancyHeise ^talk 18:22, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Nancy, of course I am suggesting that we ignore WP:RS. It is a dumb rule and I think we should just cite our favorite people (like the Pope[8]). I'm glad you reminded me that your sources are better so I don't waste my time in rehashing old issues in the belief that they will be actually considered. Kaldari (talk) 18:39, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Note: The author's specific religion is not relevant here. What is relevant is what point of view their works portray. A Protestant author could very well write a book pushing the Catholic viewpoint, while a Catholic author could write a book skeptical of some of the church's claims. Karanacs (talk) 18:48, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Karanacs is right. On top of that, no Wikipedia rule would justify choosing an author because of the faith they personally practice, what matters is how scholarly are their works and how often these works are cited by other scholars - it just so happens that we have used scholars of many faiths, including Muslim, Atheist, agnostic, and Protestant (not sure if any are Buddhist). I am just wondering if your comment above about "It is a dumb rule and I think we should just cite our favorite people (like the Pope[9])." means that maybe we are doing something wrong by using a book by Pope Benedict? His book was used in creating part of the Beliefs section, an entirely appropriate use. It also sounds like you think your comments won't be considered. I can consider implementation of your comments if you will be specific - as FA instructions require of reviewers. I ask again, what POV have we not covered in our article? What authors, out of the tens of thousands who have written on this subject, do you prefer us to use. Please specify so we can then address. NancyHeise ^talk 20:08, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

My link was to the use of the Pope as a source in the Early History section, not the beliefs section. Citing the pope is certainly appropriate in the beliefs section. Kaldari (talk) 20:30, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Right, I forgot about that one, here's the sentence: "At first, Christians continued to worship alongside Jewish believers, but within twenty years of Jesus' death, Sunday was being regarded as the primary day of worship because it was revered as the day of Jesus' Resurrection." The last half of the last sentence is referenced to the Pope Benedict book. It is a statment of Catholic belief, used to explain to Reader why Sunday was being regarded as the day of worship. Do you have a problem with this? NancyHeise ^talk 20:33, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I have a problem with it. I don't want to rely on the pope telling me why Christians worshiped on Sundays in 20 A.D. That is a historical question. The pope is not an authority on history. Where is your insistence on the "best scholarship" in this case? Kaldari (talk) 20:43, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Pope Benedict's quote can easily be replaced, I am getting to work on that now. NancyHeise ^talk 20:58, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I replaced the pope Benedict book with Owen Chadwick's A History of Christianity page 17. NancyHeise ^talk 21:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Kaldari (talk) 21:58, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

BTW, only one of the article's Owen Chadwick citations actually specifies which book it is from (there are 2 in the bibliography). This needs to be fixed. Kaldari (talk) 22:01, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Fixed, thanks. NancyHeise ^talk 03:49, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

If you want a specific example of a change you could make to improve the article, it would be to replace the sentence in the history section about doctrinal authority being established in Rome with a few sentences explaining the different theories about the establishment of the orthodox church. You don't have to give each theory equal weight, but you do need to mention them. This is basic NPOV 101: all articles must "represent fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views". Bart Ehrman and other scholars work in this area is a "significant view". It may not be the most prominent or credible view, but it is a significant view and it represents a significant controversy about a very important piece of church history that is glossed over here. I'm not saying you have to write a paragraph about Bart Ehrman and his pet ideas, I'm saying you need to mention that they exist. This is consistent with both RS and NPOV. Kaldari (talk) 21:04, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

And you are fine using an author who has been accused of scholarly malpractice by many other scholars per [10]? NancyHeise ^talk 21:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

First of all, that article says scholars accused National Geographic of "scholarly malpractice", not Ehrman specifically. Secondly, of course people are going to accuse anyone who seriously challenges orthodox views of being a fraud, a hack, etc, etc. The fact is, Ehrman's ideas about the origins of the church are significant (note, I did not say "reliable" or "factual"). Just the fact that they are commonly debated and criticized by academics and the public means they are significant. And believe it or not, there are people out there who actually think he and other scholars make a convincing argument. This view doesn't have to be presented as the factual history of the church in the article, but because it is a significant point of view, it must at least be mentioned, per WP:NPOV. Kaldari (talk) 21:50, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

And even if 100% of Ehrman's research was revealed to be a total fraud, so long his ideas were still being debated and seriously considered by a significant group of misguided people, you would still need to mention that in the article to conform to NPOV. It would only be a violation of RS if you said "Ehrman's ideas are the truth" rather than "some people still agree with Ehrman's idea that...". Kaldari (talk) 21:56, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Since this is off topic, I have posted the excerpt of Scholarly criticism against Bart Ehrman for his work on Gospel of Judas on the discussion page with link. He was pilloried. Nat Geo hired who they thought was a professional and got someone who did not perform his duties conscientiously. Like hiring a roofer only to find the roof leaking when he has finished the job and already been paid.NancyHeise ^talk 03:52, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Kaldari. You are opposing based on the alleged lack of coverage of the views of certain "secular religious historians" on the early church. However you fail to specify exactly what views you would like to appear in the article. You mention the name of Ehrman, stating his (unspecified) views are significant, (which many might argue, considering him a fringe figure, most known for his works related to the Da Vinci Code,) but you don't state which view you consider to be missing, so that it can be examined. The early church section went through a rewrite between FACs with new material added from different sources, and reflects the mainstream view of secular and religious historians. So what precise other historical theory would you like to see added to the section as an alternate view? And what precise sector of opinion supports that theory? Xandar 22:40, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I think there is room for a mention, in text or notes, of the disagreement of other Churches over the early position of Rome - I'm thinking of the Orthodox in particular. Johnbod (talk) 23:17, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Johnbod, do you have a source to suggest? I have searched my most scholarly works and googlebooks (including Bart Ehrman) for some alternative view of Church origins and so far have not found this "secular view". Even Encyclopedia Brittanica's Roman Catholic Church article is the same as our presentation with even less discussion of alternative views, they only have a Catholic POV. NancyHeise ^talk 23:31, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

There are really two different issues here: 1) The history section doesn't adequately explain the split between the Eastern and Western Churches and the fact that many early Christians (before the 4th century) did not recognize the authority of Rome. The section simply ignores the other branches of early Christianity (the Assyrian Church for example) and mentions only Rome as if it were the uncontested center of all Christianity. 2) Less importantly, there is no mention of academic theories that the Roman Catholic church exaggerated the pre-4th century role of Rome in shaping Christian theology in order to solidify its own authority. Personally, I would be satisfied if only #1 were addressed. Kaldari (talk) 00:10, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I think a sentence on each of those points is justified, even with space pressure. I'm afraid I don't have any suitably authoritative sources for the first (I don't think Gibbon will do), altough I might have for the second. Neither ought to be very controversial really. On the second, we have:"This was just one of many disputes between the Eastern and Western Churches, [which were growing apart during this time]." to which we could add/substitute something like "over Papal primacy, Rome's definition of which was not accepted in the East, the filioque issue, and as different languages, and political and cultural paths pulled the two halves of the Church apart." I'll dig around, or can Kaldari or Savidan suggest a suitable reference? On the first issue, the German Walter Bauer (d 1960) appears to be the daddy of the Ehrman etc school of scholars as listed by Vassyana above, but his article keeps emphasizing how isolated and against scholarly concensus his views were, at least in his lifetime. To the Chadwick-backed sentence in the article "... evidence of a presiding Roman cleric who exercised authority over other churches" it would be reasonable to add that this is not accepted by either all churches (Calvinists etc) or by all historians. I can't help with refs on that, as I've said. Johnbod (talk) 01:16, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I have made some changes to the first and last paragraphs of Roman Empire section based on Vassyana, Savidan and Kaldari's comments. I would like to ask all three to read this section again and let me know if this meets to your satisfaction. I found two university textbooks on Western civilization that corroborate the information that the Church of Rome was considered a doctrinal authority, in my search of sources to use in order to create a section to your satisfaction, I kept finding more and more scholarly works that say the same thing that we have presented in the article. I found none that supported any other view. The Church of Rome was considered a doctrinal authority, was not the sole authority yet still held a pre-eminence because of St. Peter's position as leader of the Apostles. This is presented in these books as an historical fact, not the opinion of the Roman Catholic Church. Further, Bart Ehrman is not an historian. He is neither a professor of history. He is a professor of religion and Googlebooks classifies his books under the category of Religion, not History. His specialty is study of the New Testament, not Church history. There is no POV about Church origins that he could offer us that we could realistically use in the article. I have searched his books and he does not offer a POV of church origins. If you have seen this somewhere I would appreciate your help in finding it. I would like this article to cover all significant POV's but I can't include them if they do not exist in a book written by an historian that is categorized as History.NancyHeise ^talk 02:43, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

More to Vassyana's comments, Elaine Pagels and James Tabor are professors of Religion, not history, their books are classified by Googlebooks under the category of Religion, not history. NancyHeise ^talk 04:04, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

To be fair, "New Testament studies" etc covers history as well as linguistics and religion, if only because there are hardly enough other sources for the field to be divided in the earliest period. Johnbod (talk) 04:10, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I am researching one of Vassyana's other suggested authors right now in an effort to find the missing POV. NancyHeise ^talk 04:13, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, here's an excerpt from Elaine Pagels best selling book:

• "By A. D. 100,...Christianity had become an institution headed by a three-rank hierarchy of bishops, priests, and deacons, who understood themselves to be the guardians of the only "true faith." The majority of churches, among which the church of Rome took a leading role, rejected all other viewpoints as heresy. Deploring the diversity of the earlier movement, Bishop Irenaeus and his followers insisted that there could be only one church, and outside of that church, he declared, "there is no salvation." Members of this church alone are orthodox (literally, "straight-thinking") Christians. And, he claimed, this church must be catholic-- that is, universal.(The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels. Published by Vintage Books. 1994)"

and here's one from Funk and Wagnalls encyclopedia: "ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH, the largest single Christian body, composed of those Christians who acknowledge the supreme authority of the bishop of Rome, the pope, in matters of faith. The word catholic (Gr. katholikos) means "universal" and has been used to designate the church since its earliest period, when it was the only Christian church. The Roman Catholic church regards itself as the only legitimate inheritor, by an unbroken episcopal succession descending from St. Peter to the present time, of the commission and powers conferred by Jesus Christ on the 12 apostles (see APOSTLE). The church has had a profound influence on the development of European culture and on the introduction of European values into other civilizations. Its total membership as the 1990s began was about 995.8 million (about 18.8 percent of the world population). The doctrine of apostolic succession, that is, the continuous transmission of ministry from the time of Jesus until today. The doctrine is found as early as the Epistle to the Corinthians (c. 96), traditionally attributed to Pope Clement I...It is expressly affirmed in Roman Catholicism. It is identified with the succession of bishops in office and interpreted as the source of the bishops’ authority and leadership role. The most specific instance of these claims is that the pope is the successor of St. Peter, who was chosen by Jesus as head of his church (see Matt. 16:16–18). (Funk & Wagnalls Encyclopedia ©1998-2000)"

This reveals a stark agreement from authors of very different POV's. Did everyone look at the changes I made to the Roman Empire section per your comments here? We need to come to agreement. I think this reveals broad agreement on the present article text. Elaine Pagels is really a fringe, non-Catholic POV and even she is in agreement. NancyHeise ^talk 04:48, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Please use sources in context. Pagels was discussing the demonization of heresies and other minority Christian groups, and the accompanying origin of the terms "catholic" and "orthodox". Rome taking a leading role in this process is not the same as Rome being the highest ecclesiastical authority. Pagels' comments should also not be misinterpreted to support the existance of a unified church. You are either unaware or neglect to mention that Pagels supports the "proto-orthodox" model. At this point, I am out of good faith, since you continue the trend you have consistently shown for ignoring context and discarding points with which you disagree.[11][12] Vassyana (talk) 13:38, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Vassyana, you are accusing me of taking things out of context. You previously accused me of cherrypicking from history and making stuff up. Per one of the most respected editors on Wikipedia FAC who actually bought some of my sources (others are available on Googlebooks), she checked my wordings to the references and they all checked out fine [13] Now you are telling me that I am taking something out of context? I think you are continuing to try to paint me into something that has not been substantiated by your persistent personal attacks on me. No scholar (even Duffy) asserts that the Church of Rome did not exist in the first century and the article text is supported by the most scholarly works on the subject. Your oppose is just unfounded, even by your own favorite authors and I can not reasonably be expected to act on your oppose unless there are scholars to reference. I searched your noted authors for evidence of the missing POV you claim the article does not cover, it does not exist. [14] NancyHeise ^talk 14:09, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

• Comment In my opinion the "history" section should be toward the top, but I'm not sure what the concensus is. ~one of many editorofthewikis ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 23:46, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
• Support per previous nom. Take this article and put it side by side with other encylopedic works on the Catholic Church and you'll see that it holds its own. Majoreditor (talk) 00:14, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
• Strong Support: Everything is right in this article. Deserves to be featured. Kensplanet^Talk_{Contributions} 15:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
• Attempt at Summary of Oppose issues raised by several people

1) The SS image - there are other (better) versions on the web, and as far as I can see it should be possible to get a free one on Commons, which would deal with this issue

2) The Apostolic and Early Christian Age - a) Theological diversity is covered, and we give - in cautious terms - what still is the conventional position: ie that there was great diversity, but there was a mainstream in the church. It still seems early to say whether Bauer & his followers will change this, though clearly they write plenty of best-sellers. b) the early position of Rome. I think there is room for an expression of the differing long-established religious views, which each have support from some historians, namely (and put very simply) the Orthodox position that there were doctrinal authorities from very early on, but that Rome's primacy was only recognised in a very limited and honorific sense, or alternatively the classic Continental Protestant position that early on there were no doctrinal authorities (good), but one or more later emerged (bad).

3) The history of the Curia & centralized authority of the church is not covered. We do state the current set-up in what seems to me adequate detail for an article that is not about the Vatican or the Papacy, but the whole Church. But it is true the development of the Curia is not covered in the history section. I think at the least the emergence under Charlemagne of the Papal States, and the start of Cardinals in the 12th century are worth a mention. I also said on the talk page that the surely uncontroversial point that the centralized nature of church authority was unique among the large older churches, & this was worth saying near the opening of the article. Nancy could't find a reference on this - anyone?

4) Papal Infallibility has been mentioned here and on talk. It is surely the one major doctrinal position that is unique to the RCC, and this is worth saying, as is that it had been a controversial proposal in the Church for centuries before 1870.

Johnbod (talk) 19:15, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - This sentence needs to be fixed, although I'm not sure what it's supposed to say: "Historians note that Catholic missionaries, popes, laymen and religious were among the leaders in the campaign against slavery..." Kaldari (talk) 20:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

To keep things focused, here is a specific list of points that if addressed would change my opposition to neutrality or support:

• Some mention that not all scholars agree with the version of history presented. This need not take up more than a couple of statements in the article, simply noting the existence of opposing views and citing a couple of prominent examples (such as Bauer, et al's model of extreme diversity and Ehrman, et al's "proto-orthodox" model).
• A few relevant points about the existance of other sees with exceptional authority besides Rome. I would prefer to see a specific mention of the similar authority of the Bishop of Alexandria (as affirmed by the First Council of Nicaea) and the later similar authority of the Bishop of Constantinople.
• Related to the above, I would like to see a clearer picture of how and when the Bishop of Rome established more exclusive primacy and how it relates to the schism between the (modern) Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches. Some information related to this point is present in the article, but the picture is rather muddled/incomplete.
• A better examination of papal infallibility and the doctrine of infallibility in general (the Pope is not the only source of infallible teachings and doctrine, which is contrary to much of the public perception of Catholicism).
• A bit more detail on the Curia. How and when were they established? What about the role they played during the era of the Papal States? How did their purpose transform with the end of their civil authority?
• In general and overall, a little more representation of the Protestant, Orthodox and secularist views. It is not necessary to bog down the article with counterpoints galore or to add such outside views willy-nilly. Instead, I am simply looking for indications to the reader that other views exist on points where there exists alternate prominent views, such as with the point about the history presented.

I hope this helps clarify my opposition and presents my concerns in a more addressable and less confrontational manner. If I can provide further clarification or there are any questions, please do not hesitate to let me know. Vassyana (talk) 21:04, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I feel that this article is being somewhat negatively treated because of its subject. Some of the opposition comments I have read in this article are non-actionable and irrelevant. Why would an encyclopedia on the Roman Catholic Church need to include views by such a large(r) range of other non-related historians. As per the list that the nominaot provided (mind you its still not complete as he said), the article is clearly generous in this case and goes over some perspectives of other historians. The article is predominantly written from a Catholic point of view because it is a Catholic article. The FA criteria clearly states that it should not go into un-related points like the opposers are saying. Stick to the Roman Catholic view for the Roman Catholic article. If you want views of some other historians, read their wikipedia article. Similarly, if you want views of Judaism or Orthodox religions, read the specific related articles. Domiy (talk) 23:04, 10 October 2008 (UTC)