Talk:National Football League

Old discussions

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What legal structure does the NFL operate as? Corporation, partnership, what? I was just reading http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/californiastatecases/h026688.pdf , and was curious.

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Is the "Current NFL franchises" section redundant to the {{NFL}} navigation? --Rj 04:14, May 18, 2004 (UTC)

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Should the information about AFL championships be moved to the AFL section? -- corvus13

Nice catch; probably should. - RjLesch

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For future reference: the team pages are named using the current team's name. Where a team has changed its name, we use the [[newname|oldname]] syntax. So, [[Cleveland Browns]] referes to the team that currently bears that name, while [[Baltimore Ravens|Cleveland Browns]] refers to the team that used to bear that name. --RjLesch

Actually, that's a bad example, since the Browns/Ravens is a special case. All of the Browns records/statistics/etc. carried over to the new Browns franchise, while the Ravens are considered to be a new franchise. A better example would be [[Tennessee Titans]] and [[Tennessee Titans|Houston Oilers]]. —Wrathchild ^(talk) 16:15, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

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If you want that Wins/Losses/Ties column to line up and not be butt-ugly, you're going to need to stick it in a table. If you'd like, I'll line them up for you. -- John Owens 23:54 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)

OK, I went ahead and made a table of it. Much better now, though I'm tempted to split W-L-T into three separate columns so they line up no matter how many digits "Wins" has. -- John Owens

Important to note the NFL is a non-profit organization which means it is 501(c)3 tax exempt. This is the reason why the NFL produces so many United Way commercials. It is a part of their article of incorporation.

Sayanora, Sportsmanship in the NFL

It has been said that one man practicing sportsmanship is better than fifty men preaching it. Describing the NFL as an entertainment industry and permitting excessive celebrations has ruined NFL football for us. It's no longer a sport, and as a business it's dishonest. After a longtime affiliation with pro football, the cellphone incident has slammed the door shut. Anything less than suspension of these hot dogs is inappropriate. Sincerely, George Madison

I fail to see the point behind banning these celebrations. It is perfectly reasonable for someone to be very happy after scoring a touchdown, and, frankly, the celebrations are very entertaining, though I agree with banning deliberately offensive celebrations (like Moss mooning the crowd)

This is an issue where some people enjoy the celebrations and others do not. If the players are allowed to bring the game to a halt so they can go play cheerleader for a while, some people will give up on football all together. If the players are limited in their celebrations, only those who watch the game specifically for the celebrations (all two of them?) will stop watching the game. So, from a financial standpoint, it is better to limit the celebrations by the players. Kainaw 14:05, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I think that instead of banning some celebrations, there should just be a time limit. Say, 15 seconds, and if they go over, it's a 10 yard penalty. --SodiumBenzoate 23:17, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

What you suggest is the rule. A player may briefly celebrate. However, the celebration may not include items being brought onto the field (ink pens, cell phones, pompoms, etc...) and it may not be a group celebration. As it is, there is a celebration after nearly every play. A guy makes a tackle, he celebrates. A guy catches a ball, he celebrates. A guy doesn't trip on his own feet, he celebrates. My opinion on this is best summed up by Madden - don't celebrate for doing your job. Celebrate when you win the game. It is like watching a bag boy do a dance every time he puts a can in a plastic bag. Kainaw 02:20, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Spaming

24.48.96.44 and Remember the AFL users may be the same person or both work together in an attempt to promote their own business/website remember the AFL check discussion on user 24.48.96.44 pages.

Not to be forgotten

Can anyone tell me what the deal is with this phrase? A search for it (in quotes) shows that it appears in every single sports team page, and virtually no where else in the Wikipedia. Is it an actual Encycplodeic convention, or is it just something someone stuck in to a template at some time or another? It strikes me as too folksy and vaguely inappropriate. Wouldn't "Other Notable Players" or something like that be better? I changed it on the Steeler's page before noticing it's in every sports team page, and I'm torn between changing it back to make it fit the sports team model, or keeping the change. Charles 16:25, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I completely agree. "Other Notable Players" is much more descriptive and appropriate. I don't see any problem with changing the phrase .Carrp 16:47, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The phrase Not to be forgotten is normally applied to POW/MIA soldiers. As such, it is often used where the same comaraderie is desired. While using this phrase in football fits with the warrior persona, it does imply that the retired players are dead, which is not always the case. I feel that Other Notable Players is a better title. Kainaw 22:04, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Nicknames

I just noticed the 'Other Nicknames' section under 'NFL Lore'. I find many things wrong with this. First: Other than what? Unless there is a Nicknames section, it is strange to have an Other Nicknames section. It cannot be Other than the Lore because the Lore section lists events, not nicknames. Second: What is Lore about nicknames? Franco Harris has some fans who gave themselves a nickname. How has that become part of the NFL legend for everyone who really doesn't care (or know) who Franco Harris is? Third: Being under Lore, it implies the past. The nicknames listed are a mix of the present and the past. I suggest moving the nicknames section out of lore. I actually think that it should be removed all together. Perhaps an article on 'Nicknames in the NFL' could be created instead. Kainaw 22:00, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Kainaw's suggestion to move nicknames to a separate page, and perhaps Lore as well. Creating separate articles for these sections would improve the NFL page and allow editors/fans to expand on nicknames and lore. --Devilyouknow 18:05, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

I complete agree, the NFL article is getting a bit too cluttered. Making separate articles out of those sections would help tremendously. --Sophitus 17:26, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

I just deleted the section on NFL lore and moved it to a new article. Please have a glance at it and make any edits you see fit. --Sophitus 05:01, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Help

I tried making some minor formatting changes and the end of the NFL article disappeared. I tried reverting, but it made no difference. Maybe wikipedia is just messed up right now or my browser is once again on the fritz, but would somebody check it out and make sure everything is okay since I can't accomplish it myself for some reason. --Sophitus 18:00, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Regular season

Some teams play five preseason games (e.g., World Bowl) and the regular season does not always start the week after the last preseason games. Al 15:45, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Racial Policies/Samoans

The removal of the Samoan section, claiming that makes no sense, makes no sense. It is obvious that there are a lot of Samoans in the NFL. This is backed by many easy to find news articles, such as [1]. However, I can see the reason for removing the section. It is not about blacks. While the title of the section is "Racial Policies", the section links to what it refers to as the parent article - Blacks in American Football. So, I suggest that the section be renamed "Black Policies" or it should allow for races other than blacks to be represented. Kainaw 14:56, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

I also removed a section from Racial Policies that claimed: Too many blacks were having fun. This made the white people angry. The league made rules to keep the blacks from having fun. Again, this section is titled 'Racial Policies'. If it is supposed to be 'How Blacks are Mistreated by the NFL', rename the section. Kainaw 13:26, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

This is not a message board

This is a place to discuss the NFL article on Wikipedia - not an NFL message board. The following are items that have nothing to do with the NFL Wikipedia article. There are hundreds (if not thousands) of NFL message boards on the Internet for topics like the following. I am bringing this up because if it isn't mentioned, this will become nothing more than a message board. Kainaw 23:42, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

I have removed external links to discussion forums as they are a violation of WP:EL. -- MakeChooChooGoNow 19:43, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Team/helmet table

The big table at the top of the article, depicting team helmets and names, seems a little awkward. The text of the article is abruptly halted to make way for it. I think it would be much nicer if we could set it up in such a way that would permit the article text to wrap around it on one side. It's also remarkably similar to Template:NFL at the bottom. -Joshuapaquin 01:03, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

• I reverted it for now. It looks screwed up on a 800x600 monitor resolution, which many users like me do have. I suggest that we instead alter the table to something else. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 04:52, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
  • By the way, it currently is no different that what is on National Hockey League. But maybe we should do something like Major League Baseball. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 04:56, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
    • I do prefer the MLB system. One important distinction with the NHL example is that the big table is toward the bottom of the page, after plenty of text content; here it is near the top! -Joshuapaquin 05:46, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Racial Policies/White Discrimination?

"There has been increasing discrimination against white running backs, defensive backs, and receivers, who have been less and less visible for the last 25 years. In 2005, a minimal majority of offensive linemen are white. Most quarterbacks, punters, and kickers are white, while almost all running backs, wide receivers, defensive backs, defensive linemen, safeties, punt returners, and kickoff returners are black."
These sentences are awkward, and fairly innacurate. There are a number of very talented running backs and wide receivers of all ethnicities. There are also many punt returners and kickoff returners of all ethnicities - I'd like to see where this person got their information. Moreover, to say that there is discrimination against one group simply because it's mostly filled by another ethnic group is innacurate. For us to write in an encyclopedic article that there is discrimination, we should have some, you know, evidence of it. --Xinoph 19:09, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

• If there are no sources, it is best to remove it. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 19:14, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

There was a source for the comment about Samoan's having a higher than average representation in the NFL, but that was removed. It appears to me that the policy is: "If it doesn't say the NFL is racist against blacks, remove it." That is why I've continually requested that this section be renamed: "African American Discrimination in the NFL". Why lie about what the section is for? Kainaw 19:50, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Except for that Air Force coach, I can't imagaine any football coaches intentionally discriminating against white people, or anyone else for that matter. If Bill Cowher or Jeff Fisher or Tony Dungy could improve upon their success with a white, Asian, Indian, Samoan or Martian tailback, you can be sure they would play the guy.

The reason there are so many black skill-position players is that the average person from West Africa is very, very slightly faster than the average person from elsewhere in the world, but at the extreme end of the bell curve, that difference is exaggerated. As a result, a majority of the world's fastest 0.01% of people are of West African ancestry. -- Mwalcoff 00:39, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I beleive that section should note the decline in caucasian players over the years, exspecialy those in fame positions (QB, RB, WR, ect) but should not hint or suggest racial assumptions that the NFL is supplementing/replacing white players with black players, I.E. black athletes getting signed despite a better white athlete, even if it were true in some cases and i'm not saying that I think it is I just can't see how you could touch that subject without heavy critisism. Mithotyn 08:41, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Its interesting to me that the section on discrimination against white players warrants removal because of lack of evidence, and because you can't "touch that subject without heavy criticism." There is currently a push in the NFL to hire more minority coaches. What evidence do we have that this is discrimination as opposed to better potential on the part of the white coaches who are hired? And if all thats required to be a good running back is to be "very, very slightly faster" than the average person, how do you explain the success of black running backs like Jerome Bettis? There is more than pure speed required to play any position in the NFL.

There are NO white cornerbacks or runningbacks other than several fullbacks. How else can you explain this fact if not as a discrimination against? Thousands of good white athletes play those positions in high school, but between college and NFL they all get lost somehow, either forced to revert to other positions or not given a chance. -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.32.47.225 (talk • contribs) 3:41, 25 Jan. 2006 (UTC).

Discrimination against a group includes unfair stereotypes. Such discrimination against one group does not preclude discrimination against another. It is entirely possible, given the scheme of things, that discrimination against both black coaches and white running backs is taking place at the same time. Perhaps the old bias that blacks aren't 'smart enough' limits their coaching opportunities; perhaps the old bias against whites that they aren't fast enough or athletic enough limits their opportunities at the skill positions in the NFL. It is not an either / or position; both are equally possible, and likely.

I can give you proof. After trading Backup QB Todd Bouman to the New Orleans Saints following the 2002 season Vikings Head Coach Mike Tice stated as his reason that Bouman was "Too White". Futher proof. Minnesota Vikings Head Coach Dennis Green, who is Black, stated that all things being equal he would prefer to give an opportunity to a Black player then a White player. Both comments are public record, both were wholly ignored by the media and we all know that if the comments were reversed both men would have become pariahs after being promptly fired from their positions. Being a Viking fan I can only speak in reference to them, but I'm sure this organization is not isolated in its questionable racial policies. One only needs to look towards last season when Dustin Fox, drafted out of Ohio State as a White Cornerback, was sumarily moved to Safety without being given the opportunity to attempt to play Corner. His comments regarding his desire to play CB, but his willingness to do what the coaching staff asked is also public record.

69.172.226.138 07:28, 27 January 2006 (UTC) Skallagrimsson

Yes, the NFL, like so many other organizations, discriminates against that oppressed group, white men. I guess America just isn't ready for a white running back. Maybe the sponsors wouldn't feel comfortable putting white people in their advertisements. Perhaps the teams fear that their white players won't be able to get taxis or hotel rooms in certain parts of the country. Of course, no one can forget the bravery of those Caucasian League veterans who bravely crossed the color line, facing the abuse of the crowd, getting Wonder Bread thrown at them. Yet I think we can all agree that the black power structure at the heart of professional athletics will never let whites compete as equals. After all, when was the last time you saw a white commissioner or team owner? :) -- Mwalcoff 08:29, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I added some examples of perceived white discrimination in the NFL. It is important to note that discrimination on the DIV 1A level translates into discrimination in the NFL by association. If a player is not allowed a spot at a D1 school, no matter how good he is, he probably will not get enough exposure to play in the NFL. I think racial discrimination at the college level belongs in the NFL article because of this. I think this whole article should simply be a general article about the NFL. There should be an entirely separate article on the bureaucracy of the league, another on the format for play, and another on American football. There should also be an entirely separate article on Race in the NFL which covers discrimination of all races. It is difficult to maintain an encyclopedic tone when trying to cover many topics in one article. Mwalcoff, a white commissioner could easily discriminate against a white player. Throughout history, there have been plenty of instances of people being prejudice against their own ethnic group. Why did someone take my examples off of the article. I provided clear and clean evidence to support a point of view. Here is what I want added: " Several instances of white discrimination have occured in the NFL and are quite common at the college level. Joe Arnold, an editor for an Ohio newspaper(The Post), wrote about the discrimination of running back Chad Brinker when trying to get a college scholarship. Brinker openly quoted recruiters as saying: "“When I was recruited, some schools told me ‘We’re looking for a 220-pound black guy that can run.’ I was a 175-pound white guy who could run. I really wish things weren’t that way.”"

It should be noted that Brinker went on to have an outstanding career at the University of Ohio, but only played practice squad in the NFL. Running back Brock Forsey was cut from the Bears after Lovie Smith, the Bears Coach, stated that he looked more like a team manager than a player. It should be noted that Forsey started 2 games and rushed for over 60 yards in one(a sound performance) and 100 yards in another(an excellent performance). He also had an outstanding career in college.

Fisher DeBarry, an Air Force Football coach, remarked that his team was poor because it had no black kids. Air Force had been better in previous years, with the same racial composition that it had at the time of DeBarry's statement.

In an article by Taylor Bell of the Chicago Sun Times that was written on December 17, 1999, Bell pointed out that Mike Mangen and Ryan Clifford, two stellar white running backs in high school(the best in the Chicago area) were not recruited heavily by Division I schools.

Also, for years, HOF quarterback Steve Young was the fastest man on the 49ers. He was faster than HOF receiver Jerry Rice(often considered the greatest player that ever lived). However, Young's speed is seldom a topic of discussion in sports circles and Young is mostly known for being a very accurate passer." Some of this deserves to be added. Maybe it needs editing.

Wikipedia is not subject to the space limitations of conventional media. That means things not directly related to the NFL can be put in articles more suited to the task. You could create an article on Race and American football if you want. But I'd bet that if you use it to promote one particular point of view, people will vote to delete it. -- Mwalcoff 23:33, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Hey, its fine if you want to remove the things not directly related to the NFL. I'm just playing a little devil's advocate and showing a point of view that is supported but seldom addressed. If I created a Race and American football article, could I cite this one? Could I use things from the blacks in pro-football article? The examples in the NFL about Eric Crouch, Brock Forsey, and others should be included though? What about the back-up status of star receiver Joe Jurevicius, despite his performance?

Isn't Nick Goings a white running back in the NFL? Jason Seahorn had a long career in the NFL as a white cornerback. Matt Jones is a young quarterback-turned-reciever on the Jaguars who has shown great potential. Brandon Stokely? Robert Gallery? Kevin Turley? Not to mention the entire Patriots offensive line? There are so many examples that you didn't bother to look for.

I've followed Joe Jurevicius on the Giants and Bucs, and he's very inconsistent. Physically, he's got solid length and great hands, but his performance is very streaky. He'll go 3 or 4 games with a consecutive touchdowns and then follow that off with 3 or 4 with less than 50 yards recieving. That's why he has never been able to become a number one reciever.

And no offense, but you're suggestion that people downplay Steve Young's speed is ridiculous. Young is often regarded as one of the QB's that popularized scrambling and creating plays with your feet.

While I do agree that there are certain racially-based perceptions in football, there isn't a systemic racism that prevents whites from playing at the skill positions. In a league where head coaches often have 2-3 years to show improvement before they are fired, its difficult to believe that, if a player was good enough, he wouldn't be chosen.128.100.247.126 18:59, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Right. But there is clear evidence above that those perceptions have influenced beliefs of coaches. I'm not saying this is major, it just deserves mention, a few lines maybe. These stereotypes are part of American pop culture. The amount of yards a receiver gets often has to do with the quarterback, the defense, and a lot of other things. Stokely had 1000+ season one year, and then half that the next. Did he become a worse player? No. The offense changed which hurt the media's perception of him. (Nick Goings is technically considered black due to the one drop rule, but yeah, there always exceptions.)

Yeea, you've definitely got to mention that. I just wanted to make sure the racism wasn't interpreted as systemic or implemented by the league. Also, there are a couple of innaccuracies in that paragraph. Offensive line is not a skill position and there is a pretty even mix around the league. While tight end seems to be following the trend, it is predominantly white at this point.

Why is the "white discrimination" part still in this article? It's pretty ridiculous.

No it's not. There is discrimation against white skill players. Just ask Mike Hass, who's lingering in Bears practice sqaud after several season of utter dominance at college level. There are many more examples.

What's ridiculous is all the unsigned comments here. I am going to revise this section and try to get it cleaned up to Wikipedia standards. CraigBurley 21:48, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the NFL is out to discriminate; just that whites are more likely to trend toward certain positions, and blacks toward others. Similarly, it seems silly to call the NFL racist for its lack of black kickers (do you know of any?). Perhaps a mention that certain players are more likely to gravitate toward certain sports is proper; but the word discrimination is out of order, if you ask me. Do you really think all the white bureaucrats sitting atop the NFL have a deep seated anti-whtie bias?-Patstuart^{(talk)(contribs)} 23:09, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

152.163.101.13 00:40, 28 October 2006 (UTC)For those of you who refuse to believe that Whites are being discriminated against in the NFL, please go to the website castefootball.com. Thank you. UserWalterRing 20:37, 27 October 2006

Nicknames split

When Lore was split, I understood that Nicknames was supposed to split as well. It is not an integral part of the NFL article. So, I went ahead and split it. In my opinion, as a second article, it can be padded with a few thousand nicknames. We can even make up some, like the KC Chokes (they can make the playoffs regularly, but they can't win once they do). Kainaw 17:53, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Brock Forsey is a perfect example of NFL discrimination against White runningbacks. Forsey tied and broke several division 1A scoring records, as well as Boise State Rushing Records. After being drafted by the Chicago Bears in 2003 saw action in 4 games at Runningback where he rushed for 191 yards on 50 attempts with 2 touchdowns and 3 receptions for 37 yards. Forsey started two games for the Bears, posting respectable numbers. he rushed for 56 yards on 19 carries with 10 yards recieving and one touchdown week 8 against the Detroit Lions, and 134 yards on 27 carries with 27 yards recieving and 1 touchdown against the Arizona Cardinals week 13. Forsey was cut in 2004 by new African American Bears coach Lovie Smith after Smith cited he looked more like a team manager than a football player. Forsey was picked up by the Dolphins in 2004, but subsequently cut after only getting 19 carries, despite the Dolphins woes at the runningback position. Forsey has gotten no serious looks from any NFL team since his brief NFL stint despite the fact that many older and less accomplished black runningbacks continue to get roster spots and looks from teams on a yearly basis. NFL= No Fair(skin) League unless you are a Quarterback, Offensive Lineman or Kicker/Punter. Even Brian Urlacher, the leagues best middle linebacker had to endure barbs and racial jabs and accusations of being overrated and to White early in his career.

Player contracts

The article would benefit greatly from a discussion of player contracts. Specifically, how is it that Terrell Owens can sign a 7-year contract and then demand a renegotiation after one year? Effectively, in the NFL, should the word "contract" always be used with quotes around it? And how does the grievance procedure work with players who are fired, released, suspended, or fined? Tempshill 01:08, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

NFL contracts are structured in a way that allows teams to suspend/release/fine players. Renegotiation works the same way it does with other contracts - if both sides agree to change it (the team and the player) it's allowed. I don't know the contract/labor system in enough detail to write a section about it though. --71.225.229.151 22:35, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Divisions

This article does not explain what a "Division" is, and doesn't explain how the four division champions are determined for the playoffs. Who plays who, and how is it decided? This is blindingly obvious to football fans, but not to people just learning about football. —thames 17:11, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

• Yes, this article needs tons of work, including the issue you raised and the issues discussed above... which is why I was surprised that someone marked this as {{GA}}. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 17:14, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I was the one who marked this as a "good article". While I completely agree that it needs some work, it's also well written and informative, especially for a broad topic. A good article will have some issues, which is why it won't be a FAC. Carbonite | Talk 17:24, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

This is a linked wiki. Do you expect to find a complete definition of what a "toe" is when reading an article about a "four-toed hedgehog"? You shouldn't expect a lengthy diatribe about the possible meaning of "division" in any sport page. As it is, the article explains that there is one league split into two conferences, each split into four divisions (and divisions is linked to a page that goes into heavy detail on what a division is).

As for the playoffs, that is linked also. There is a brief description in this article and a more complete one in the linked specific article on NFL playoffs.

What is blindingly obvious to me is that some people glance through an article and quickly assume that the information isn't there. Just yesterday, I sent a person to the Venus article three times. She kept saying I was being rude and unhelpful in her attempt to figure out how long a Venus year is. Well, I guess that is where this rant really came from. Sorry. --Kainaw ^(talk) 17:44, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the vitriol. It is confusing, if there are eight divisions, how the playoffs can be comprised of four division champions instead of eight division champions. Who plays who to become division champion? Or is it determined by record? And does being a good team in a bad division have a different effect than a good team in a tough division? This was left unexplained in both this article and the playoffs article, until Zzyzx11 made some constructive edits, rather than spending his time flaming another user. —thames 18:55, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Rules named after Players

• I'm wondering if it would be better to link the names of the players in question to their player pages... it would help better explain the context behind each rule, if that is explained on their pages. I didn't want to make the change unless others thought it would be a good idea. Jlove1982 21:53, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

• I wonder whether the Rules Named After Players material shouldn't be in a separate page or included in a page on NFL rules. It is certainly not integral material for the NFL entry. Ortcutt 23:44, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

• I agree with Ortcutt. It really seems out of place in the main article about the NFL. I think it should be moved to a page on NFL rules. --Clarkbhm 21:03, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

• Also, the section is a bit of a misnomer. Although I know the recent rule change is associated with Kimo Von Oelhoffen (or however it is spelled) of the Steelers, I've never heard it called the "Kimo Von Oelhoffen Rule." In fact, most of these rules I can't say as I've ever heard them formulated as the "[Name of Player] Rule," in the same way that it is typically called the "Roy Williams Rule."

Franchise

I think it would be nice to explain the the whole idea of teams being Franchises (of the NFL?) As a Briton this concept for sports teams is a bit alien and this NFL page doesn't really seem to clarify it, in fact it doesn't seem to be mentioned at all. Dancarney 19:05, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

• A suggestion: in all of the places where someone like you may be unfamilar with "franchise", make an external link or reference to the Sports franchising article. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 23:29, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Yes, that's an excellent idea. Thanks. Dancarney 00:13, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Just out of interest, how does a franchise work. I mean I know that states or towns compete for the right to have a team. But what possible benefits does this have over a system like the Football League. Because as far as I see in the NFL, if you lose, all you get is "better luck next year", and first pick of the rookies, hardly much of a setback.... Philc _T^E_C^I 18:51, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it currently seems that the article on "sports franchises" has been merged and redirected all over the place. Basically, North Americans use the term to define the fact that all professional sports league organizations each have a limited, fixed number of teams that play every year. Its use comes from the word "franchising", and probably refers to the fact that any new team that enters the league must pay a fee to start participating in it. This is the opposite of the promotion and relegation system where the league's last places teams are replaced with new ones. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 19:14, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

What are the benefits of this system over promotion relagation? Philc _T^E_C^I 19:51, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Seems that the content for "sports franchises" was moved to Professional sports league organization. But of the top of my head, the biggest reason that the American system is used has to do with money: team owners operate the clubs more as profit-making businesses. They are guaranteed money, control, and licensing revenue each and every year for being part of the NFL or any other major league. Since the minor leagues generally do not generate as much revenue from TV, publicity, and ticket sales, an owner would lose money if his team was theoretically moved to the minors. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 20:17, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't the prospect of financial loss mean that succes was more important and that the team would have to play better, and that it would improve the sport. It seems a real shame when finances interfere with a sport to me. Philc _T^E_C^I 22:42, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

You have to understand that promotion and relegation is completely unknown in the U.S. It's not as if Jim Thorpe and his buddies in 1920 thought about it and picked one system over the other. The system used in the U.S. only seems unusual to you because you're not used to it. I think it's funny how English soccer has a league, the FA Cup, the League Cup and European competitions all going on at the same time rather than a single season leading to a single all-emcompassing championship game like the Super Bowl.

I don't think the lack of promotion and relegation has any effect on the quality of play. As far as I know, no NFL team has ever been accused of being comfortable wallowing in last place. Last year, people joked that the Houston Texans should lose on purpose late in the year to get the first draft pick, but the players and coaches were all adamant that they would try as hard as they could to win another game.

A conservative pundit wrote a book a few years back saying the Cincinnati Bengals proved the evils of social welfare. His idea was that because the Bengals were guaranteed a share of league income every year no matter how they played, they had no incentive to improve. The Bengals at the time had not had a good year in more than a decade. (I don't know if the book was called Marx and the Bengals, but if it wasn't, it should have been.) But last year, the Bengals were one of the best teams in the league.

I think the American system is superior to a system that allows three teams to win 13 of the first 14 Premier League championships. -- Mwalcoff 00:25, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Other Programs

I think it is important to note the programs the NFL sponsors. It sponsors several programs for handicapped children and helps bring football to them. It also sponsors many charities and donates money for schools in inner city areas.

The NFL's impact on American Culture

The NFL has had a tremendous influence on American politics, media, and products. It is quite common for marketers to create commercials for non-football related products by using the NFL. An example would be the Burger King ads of 2005. Several politicians such as Jack Kemp, Gerald Ford, Steve Largent, and Byron White all either played or where drafted by the NFL. DaBomb

Quick Question

If anyone could tell me where could I get the template for the NFL Teams (the one that shows all the information in regard each team) I'm planing on translate that template to spanish, thanks in advance! :D

EOZyo (мѕğ) 08:25, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

• The template is Template:NFL team. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 02:02, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

• Thanks! EOZyo (мѕğ) 04:17, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Good Article

Why has this article been removed from the GA list. I was thinking of nominating it, but I see it has been removed. Anyone Know why?False Prophet 01:40, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

• The "Racial Policies" section is currently marked with {{unsourced}}, and for months has been under a POV dispute. See this talk page's previous discussions above. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 02:04, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Steroid Policy

I think someone should add an article about the NFL drug-testing system and steroid policy, similar to the article in Major League Baseball.--J3wishVulcan 00:11, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

NFL Number System

I created an article on this with the exact same title. I was wondering if anybody agrees with me that this should be a section under of the NFL article?MP123 04:06, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't see why not. Since this page is so long anyways.--Attitude2000 01:02, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Games in the regular season

Season(s) Regular Season Games

• 1935-1936 12 games
• 1937-1942 11 games
• 1943-1945 10 games
• 1946 11 games
• 1947-1960 12 games
• 1961-1977 14 games
• 1978-present 16 games

I added this and think it makes a nice quick read for people —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.112.121.29 (talk • contribs) .

I did not know what you were exactly doing the first time you added it, so that is why I reverted it. Sorry. Now I understand your intent, I formatted it into a table. Thanks for your contribution. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 23:03, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Tiebreaker

The article says "To date, a coin toss has never been used by the league to break a tie." But the article on the NFL Draft says "then a coin toss decides who picks first; for example, in the 2006 Draft San Francisco won the coin toss over Oakland to pick 6th instead of 7th." I don't know which is right but I'm assuming the article on the draft is right. Someone who knows more should take a look. William conway bcc 14:43, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

It would appear that the draft and the playoffs use different tie-breaking schemes? Is that correct? Charles (Kznf) 15:17, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Fixed Zzyzx11 (Talk) 15:40, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

NFL Kickoff Game

It has become a regular (and now permanent) fixture on the schedule, the NFL Kickoff game (assumed to be the official title). It should be enough to garner it's own page to list the background of the game (stemmed from recovery from 9/11 in NYC, etc.), the previous results, the previous concerts participants, and other general info. Here is an quick table of the winners.

Season	Date	Winning Team	Score	Losing Team	Score	Location	Network
2002	September 5	San Francisco 49ers	16	New York Giants	13	Giants Stadium	ESPN
2003	September 4	Washington Redskins	16	New York Jets	13	FedEx Field	ABC
2004	September 9	New England Patriots	27	Indianapolis Colts	24	Gillette Stadium	ABC
2005	September 8	New England Patriots	30	Oakland Raiders	20	Gillette Stadium	ABC
2006	September 7	Pittsburgh Steelers	24	Miami Dolphins	17	Heinz Field	NBC

If exhibition games like the Hall of Fame game, and American Bowl earned their own page, the Kickoff game (which is an actual regular season game) should be a candidate as well. My 0.02 Doctorindy 17:39, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

League offices?

The lead mentions two league offices (NYC and Nashville), but later on the "Main League offices" section lists Canton, Columbus, Chicago, Philly and NYC. Which is it? --ZimZalaBim (talk) 19:41, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Nevermind, neglected to notice that those were historical listings. Move along - nothing to see here. --ZimZalaBim (talk) 19:43, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Infobox

Do we need the "current champion" entry in the infobox? The other info in there is pretty static, the champion info changes (usually) yearly. The only other info in the box that is subject to change is the number of teams, but that number seldom changes. CPitt76 01:19, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi. I don't know anything about NFL, but I noticed on a random article that the player infobox is displaying very erratically. Mdcollins1984 10:01, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I think you must be referring to Template:NFL PlayerCoach. It was still using the obsolete HiddenStructure code whose functionality was recently disabled. It now has been converted to use the ParserFunctions code. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 07:39, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

NFL

I really like the NFL.

--24.118.81.189 22:36, 28 September 2006 (UTC)--24.118.81.189 22:36, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Images

How come there are not a lot of images on this page or any of the NFL team articles? Does the competition not allow cameras at the grounds or something? Cvene64 08:25, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, basically the NFL strictly limits the amount of cameras on the grounds, so the only good shots are from people, mostly from specific news organisations, who copyright their images. In most cases, we cannot use them without breaking Wikipedia's fair use policy. The only free images that have been found so far are ones that have been taken by fans attending the game sitting way up in the stadiums, such as here and here. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 15:58, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Franchise relocations and mergers

This section of the article seems rather fragmented and it would seem that it should be cleaned up. I feel that the addition of some examples are needed for the early years and post-war mergers. The part about late 20th century relocations is good but that the current discussions between the NFL and the city of Los Angeles about gaining a franchise should be added either in the section or as an additional section on expansion with other examples (e.g. Houston Texans). Also the final sentence is interesting but needs either citation or clarification. Backstroke54 07:53, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

As you notice at the top of that section, there is the message "For more details on this topic, see NFL franchise moves and mergers." That is where all of the examples were moved to. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 15:12, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Recent clean up

I cleaned up some sections and tagged others for NPOV clean-up and Expansion. Sections affected include:

• Season Structure section: I expanded and added graphics for this section, including a graphic to explain the scheduling rubric. I also added a bunch of references. A playoff history section would be mucho bueno, and is next on my to-do list, though anyone else can jump in and fix it.
• TV and Radio sections: Moved and expanded these somewhat (TV a lot more than radio). I extensively referenced them and tried to clean up the language. Several sections belonging in this part were culled from other parts of the article (especially the Season Structure section, where they didn't really belong)
• Uniform Numbers section: renamed, expanded, referenced, and copyedited this section. Cut some unnecessary trivia, though a reference for the Keyshawn and Bosworth uniform number controversy is probably needed soon, or this statement will have to be cut.

Future clean up is needed:

• Race section: Needs serious NPOV cleanup and MAJOR references. Controversial subjects need VERY heavy references. The world should be abundant on these, since the issue is in the news all the time. ALso, I would not object to a creation of a new article and the paring down of this section to a paragraph or two with a redirect to the new article.

moved to talk page as POV. Section does not (as written now) belong in the article.--Jayron32 05:03, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

• Salary section: Needs references. Makes some assertions of fact that require backing up.

Completely rewritten and referenced. --Jayron32 05:03, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

• Everywhere else: References, references, references. If we are to return this to good (and maybe featured) status, we need to get good references, and clean up the writing in all parts to be more consistant.

Will be back soon to continue working on this article. --Jayron32 06:06, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Expanded playoff section. My next goal is the Race section. It shouldn't be too hard, what with all of the press the issue gets. I will provided copious refs and try to make it more NPOV. --Jayron32 03:42, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Cleaned up and referenced the tie-breaker section. Next up is the salary section I think (OK, I am avoiding the race section. But I am not at all convinced that it should stay. I will probably end up getting to that one last. Ho-hum.) --Jayron32 01:04, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Salary section is started. I still want to make the whole section more coherant. I have created an new umbrella section (Player compensation and contracts) to handle all of the stuff on the CBA, Salaries, Salary Cap, Draft, and Free Agency. I haven't gotten to cleaning up the old writing yet, but the new stuff makes an effective introduction. Also, see below about reducing this article. The guy who posted the message below has some good ideas. --Jayron32 18:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Salary section finished. Also, I moved the entire playoff section (as requested below) to the main NFL Playoffs article. Still left to do:

• The Draft (reference)
• Free Agency (reference)
• History (Reference and expand FIRST, then move to the NFL History article WHEN FINISHED like was done with the Playoffs section) --Jayron32 05:03, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Holy size!

First of all, thank you User:Jayron32 for all your clean-up contributions to the article. I just noticed that this article is absolutely huge. This page is 78 kilobytes long, which WP:SIZE recommends a 32 KB page and 12-15 pages printed (it's 32 right now). I think some sections could be possibly split. Possible sections that need the bulk trim could possibly be;

1. Playoffs- it's longer than the length of the NFL Playoffs article. Should the tie-breaking rules be included, or left in the NFL Playoff article?
2. Racial policies- should it even be there at all? gone until referenced
3. Rules named after players- could this be moved to NFL Lore? done
4. History- Could this deserve it's own article? Not that it is too long, it's just that it seems it could be expanded a bit more given the extensive history of the NFL.

Just throwing some ideas out there, I know almost every pro-sports page is long (NHL, MLB, NASCAR), just wondering if this page should be split up a bit, or timmed--aviper2k7 05:01, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

• • reply Thanks for the input. I was thinking that the article WAS much too long. My thought was to improve first and split later. My recent edits seem to have generated some interest in improving the article quite a bit, and I would like to see it continue. Its easier to keep improving all of this information in a central place. Once the writing and references are up to snuff, we can consider forking or moving some of this information to more relevant articles. I think the NFL article needs all of these sections, but we can move the bulk of the writing to the derivative articles and use the {{main}} or {{details}} tags to redirect for further info. Sound good? --Jayron32 18:05, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

That's what I was thinking. A brief, brief summary would be nice, with extended details in the split article. Much like many of the NFL teams have separate team history pages and a brief summary of their history.--aviper2k7 22:38, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I moved the playoffs section already. Article is down to about 54 kb. Getting better. Once we improve and move the history section, it should be even better. --Jayron32 05:32, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe such sections as television and radio are important for the total detail of the NFL, besides mentioning the NFL Network which is run by the league. Also, the players and coaches headers can be removed, with the links moved entirely to "See Also," right? Bmitchelf 19:48, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Unreferenced statements and/or sections

Moved here for your perusal and editing. If you find references to any of these parts, move them back to the main article. Until and unless you can do so, please leave them here until we can find VERIFIABLE, RELIABLE SOURCES to these statements. Also, if you find any other information added to the article that you think MIGHT be useful to it, but has not yet been referenced, please move it here.

UNREFERENCED STUFF:

From Top section

but there was an organized football league as early as 1869 that would eventually become known as the APFA and then the NFL.

It also has by far the highest per-game attendance of any domestic professional sports league in the world; its 2005 attendance of 67,593 per game was over 25,000 higher than the 2005-06 per-game attendance of the league in second place, the Bundesliga in German football (soccer).

The NFL's greatest spurt in popularity came in the 1960s and 1970s after the 1958 NFL Championship Game (which went into overtime); and the emergence of the rival American Football League (AFL) (1960-1969), and the NFL's eventual merger with it in 1970. Prior to the 1960s, the most popular version of American football was played collegiately, with many players opting to play in the Canadian Football League after graduation because they were offered larger sums of money and benefits during that era.

From "Racial Policies"

Main article: Black players in American professional football

Although the current NFL is well-represented at virtually every position by African-American athletes, that was not always the case. The league had a few African American players until 1933, one year after entry to the league of George Preston Marshall. Marshall's policies not only excluded blacks from his Washington Redskins team but may have influenced the entire league to drop African Americans until 1946, when pressure from the competing All-America Football Conference induced the NFL to be more liberal in its signing of African Americans. Another theory holds that the NFL, like most of the United States during the Great Depression, simply fired African American workers before white workers, but this could hardly account for the league's apparent "all-white" policy during this period. Still, Marshall refused to sign African American players until threatened with civil rights legal action by the Kennedy administration in 1962, in which it was explained to him that his lease on the then-new D.C. Stadium, which was at the time controlled by the United States Department of the Interior, would be voided if he continued to refuse to sign any African American players. This action, and pressure by another competing league, the more racially-liberal American Football League, slowly managed to reverse the NFL's racial quotas. The AFL's Denver Broncos were the first modern-era team to have a African American starting quarterback, Marlin Briscoe, who started the fourth game of the 1968 season, and broke pro football rookie records for passing yardage and touchdowns. The next year 1969, another American Football League team, the Buffalo Bills were the first professional football team of the modern era to begin the season with an African American, James Harris as their starting quarterback. The Chicago Bears had an African American quarterback in 1953, Willie Thrower, who played in only one game and did not start in any games. After that, no old-line NFL team had an African American starting quarterback until the Steelers' Joe Gilliam in 1972.

Even after that, for many NFL teams the door would remain closed to African American quarterbacks through the 1970s. 1978 Rose Bowl MVP Warren Moon played for six seasons in the CFL before his abilities finally landed him the starting role with the Houston Oilers. It took until 1988 before an African American quarterback started for a Super Bowl team, when Doug Williams, ironically, won it for the previously discriminatory Redskins. To this day, the NFL's head-coach hiring policies are questioned, and it has had to institute measures to attempt to have African American head coach candidates be treated more equitably.

White skill players have become increasingly rare in the modern NFL, as most positions are filled by African Americans. White running backs, defensive backs, and receivers have become less and less common over the last 25 years. In 2005, a slim majority of offensive linemen are white, while no whites are listed as tailbacks or cornerbacks on NFL rosters. Most quarterbacks, punters, and kickers are white, while almost all running backs, wide receivers, defensive backs, defensive linemen, safeties, punt returners, and kickoff returners are African American. Increasingly, positions such as tight end, fullback, and linebacker are being filled by African Americans. In the early 1980s, African Americans and whites each made up roughly half of the players. Since then, the percentage of African American players has increased steadily to its present 2005 level of 69%. Whites make up the plurality of the remaining players, followed by Pacific Islanders, Hispanics, and Asians.

From "uniform numbers"

Previously, players like Brian Bosworth and Keyshawn Johnson had petitioned the league to wear a non-standard number at their position.

That's what I have found so far. We may be able to move some of this back, though keep in mind we are trying to REDUCE the article down to 32 kb or so. It's still over 70kb. --Jayron32 18:38, 30 October 2006 (UTC)