Talk:Barack Obama

Problem with lead

"He is the first African American to be the presumptive presidential nominee of any major American political party."

Why is this so important that it needs to go in the lead of the article? Seriously, who cares? This is practically suggesting that we should be surprised that a black man is being considered for the Presidency. It's only news in the racially-backwards country in which he's being nominated. I think the rest of the civilized world view this for what it is - unimportant trivia. If anyone is curious about how many black men, brown-eyed men, men who wore pinky-rings, Californian men, men with asthmatic house pets, etc. have run for President, they can just look up the list of presidential candidates and find this info.

You must be kidding. A black or Indian or Pakistani prime minister/president/chancellor wouldn't be a remarkable development in Britain or Canada or France or Germany? (France, for example, has a grand total of ONE black MP representing the mainland.) Which unbelievably progressive la-la land of a country are you from, exactly? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.28.242.225 (talk) 17:10, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Certainly this information is of interest, and I can see mentioning it later in the article (with an appropriate explanation of why this should be considered important - i.e. the struggle for equality among races in the U.S.) but putting it in the lead just suggests that he is somehow less equal because of his colour or that he is a token candidate - something I am sure Mr. Obama himself would deny being. 139.48.25.61 (talk) 15:19, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

It is an important historical fact for the USA as it would be, if Clinton would have been the first female nominee. It's that simple. --Floridianed (talk) 16:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Relax. The original anonymous poster is obviously spewing inflammatory rhetoric; they are naught but a simple drive by troll. I do, however, like the ongoing documentation of such obtuseness. Sociologists of the future have rich pickings herein. -- Quartermaster (talk) 16:50, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm calm but still had to point it out. If it convinces at least one it was worth the effort  ;-) --Floridianed (talk) 17:39, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me? I'm quite serious. Why would it be of any more interest if he was female? That's simply another category of trivia. The same caveats still apply - making special mention of either gender or race makes it seem like the candidate is a token rather than an equal. Why is this hard to grasp? It should be removed from the lead for the reasons I outlined, and if included in the article, explain why this is "historic" - i.e. the poor state of race relations in the United States. The fact that a racial minority is seen as being worthy to lead the nation would not be news in many other countries.139.48.25.61 (talk) 18:03, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Obama's race, like Hillary's gender, is significant for social, cultural, and historical reasons. The United States' particularly dramatic history of racial polarization, segregation, and discrimination makes Obama's race significant, because it marks a major milestone in the history of racial equality in the U.S. Outside of any historical context, and in an ideal world, Obama's race would be beyond trivial. But Wikipedia writes about the world as it is, not about the world as it ought to be. And in the world as it is, race is still a major sociocultural issue. It's true that a racial minority becoming a presidential candidate wouldn't be news in every country. But then, not every country fought a war over race either. There are other articles (including African American itself) which cover the history of race in the United States more than adequately; we need not give it more than a cursory mention here, as most of our readers will already be very familiar with the matter. Centuries from now, any history book which touches on the history of racism in the United States will probably mention that Obama was the first viable African-American candidate, if nothing else; if he becomes president, that becomes all the more signficant. -Silence (talk) 20:18, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Question: Obama has a white mother and an African father. Does this make him an African American, or mixed race? The accuracy of the lede can certainly be argued -- saying that Obama is "African-American" may (or may not?) be accurate, since he is as much white as he is African. "Mixed-race" may be more accurate, unless the notion is that Wikipedia must comply with the One Drop Rule when denoting the race of a politician. 207.47.19.2 (talk) 20:50, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Please see #Of African descent below. -- Rick Block (talk) 23:58, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

• Just a little list of Leaders where "the first woman" or "first black"... is clearly mentioned:

Angela Merkel, Margaret Thatcher, Indira Gandhi, Nelson Mandela (look below at subcategory: Presidency of South Africa). Well, now should we go all over WP and take those remarks out or just do the same here? Sure, now you'll say well, but he isn't President yet. And? Being the first black nominee is for the United States a major issue and President or not, he allready has his place in our history! Now do whatever you want. Tha-tha-that's all folks. --Floridianed (talk) 23:53, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. I'm still sore that my insertion "As of today he is the only Roman Catholic elected to the Presidency" was deleted by someone from the John F. Kennedy article. All these achievements are of historical noteworthiness. 69.203.13.82 (talk) 17:11, 8 June 2008 (UTC) Allen Roth

How is being Roman Catholic an impediment to being elected as President? How can you possibly classify that an "achievement"? Becoming President, yes, but because his church had a different shaped cross on the roof he has achieved something special? Please.139.48.25.61 (talk) 15:17, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

At the time of JFK's candidacy there were significant concerns among the majority of Americans (who are Protestants) that a Catholic president would be more beholden to the Pope than to the citizens of the U.S. While the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism may not be significant now, it was then. The same may ultimately be true of Obama's candidacy/potential presidency. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 16:04, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I have been wonder this the entire time they have labled Barack as an African-American. How can they do this? Throughout his campain that is one title they use extensively. I'm sure he, just like every other inter-racial person in the United States checks the "other" box on offical documents. So how can he be called the first African-American if his mother is white?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.75.175.171 (talk) 01:52, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, very few African Americans are 100% African. Regardless, in every interview I've ever seen where he is asked this question, he self-identifies as AA. If he's half African with a black wife and strong roots in the black community, why can't he call himself black? -₪-Hemidemisemiquaver (talk) 18:41, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Of African descent

I actually like a recent addition of Fovean Author: His Kenyan father makes Obama the first American of African descent to be the presumptive nominee of a major political party.

We've had a little brouhaha (minor as this talk page goes) over the use of African-American (vs. bi-racial, mixed heritage, whatever). I think FA's phrase does a nice job of being factual, not-too-wordy, but also avoiding a somewhat loaded term. Moreover, whether or not he's really the first candidate since (whomever) to have a non-American parent, it would be nice to mention that fact in the lead. LotLE×talk 05:30, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I like it too. I think a little consensus and some research is in order before using the term though. It means more-or-less the same thing as African-American, in this context, right? But it's a more descriptive and accurate term, and as far as I can tell it's about as uncontroversial as you can get to use this kind of terminology: "of African descent" ... "of European descent" ... "of Asian descent" ... "Of Jewish descent" ... and so on. Keeping in mind that few matters of race are precise, and setting aside the issue that we all apparently come from Africa, I think this answers the objections regarding Obama being biracial. It does not deny his white heritage. He is of African descent and European descent. But he is the first of African descent to be a major party candidate. I also think it avoids making us look strange and sticking out to the readers. I think most people would read "of African descent" and not raise an eyebrow. But we should check to make sure the term really is uncontroversial and inoffensive, and that there's not already a style guideline on this. Also note that this answers the objection but doesn't actually address the fact that Obama is also the first person of mixed parentage to get the nomination. That's not on everyone's mind right now but perhaps it will be someday. Hope that makes sense.Wikidemo (talk) 06:29, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Speaking as someone new to this article and strictly offering my editorial as opposed to admin opinion obviously, I find the idea that there is any sort of problem identifying him as the first African-American major party nominee quite bizarre. "Of African descent" is definitely not offensive language, but it is rather stilted and is simply not a commonly employed term of reference for black Americans (it's usually used in a more global sense to refer to members of the larger African diaspora, e.g. comparing Obama with someone from Jamaica who is "also of African descent"). By using it here we would be using terminology that is not generally employed and doing so for no good reason that I can see.

Of course racial categories are socially constructed and quite nonsensical as most any social scientist will tell you. The fact that Obama is generally identified as "black" and not "white" given his parents' background is strictly a product of slavery as it developed in the United States and obviously relates to the so-called One-drop rule. Sadly, the basic racial schema of the slavery era largely carries over to today. This is not the place to challenge that, to re-invent the racial wheel, or to choose overly artificial terminology. We are a tertiary source and we report what other sources say. The mass media, scholars, and voters overwhelmingly refer to Barack Obama as African American or black (the former definitely being the preferred and more formal term). He also self-identifies as such. On what basis would we change it to "of African descent?" This would need to be based on some second-party sources, not our own editorial whim. Two Google searches suggest (unsurprisingly) that Obama is referred to vastly more often as an African American than as a person of African descent. Given that a rather compelling case would need to be made for why we would need to switch to the latter and right now I do not see that.

Also there is a larger issue here. Categories like African American politicians (and many similar categories) suggest that Wikipedia has no problem using the term African American (I'm quite certain a significant number if not a majority of people in that category have mixed-race ancestry). That category also includes people like Shirley Chisholm - both of whose parents came from outside the US, though both were of African descent - and who is described as "the first African-American woman elected to Congress." I don't see why we would change the pattern with Obama. See also articles like Benjamin Banneker (who probably had a white grandmother) or, more importantly, P. B. S. Pinchback, "the first African American to become Governor of a U.S. state" whose father was a white slave owner. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 07:30, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Sure, if it would be nonstandard and sound stilted, then we should not use it. My comment is premised on it being a commonly-accepted term, something I'm not sure about. Frequency of use is a clue but not necessarily the final answer. A quick google search shows Obama + "African American" leading Obama + "African Descent" by only a 2-1 margin, far closer than I would have expected. That's not meant as an argument, just a potential direction of inquiry. Where two terms are truly equivalent we can use more precise one instead of vernacular here, if it is truly uncontroversial, and do not need sourcing to choose among adjectives. For example, one need not find a source to replace the word "fast" with "rapid." I agree that it's up to anyone who wants to use the term to justify it. Wikidemo (talk) 07:45, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

It actually seems to be more like 3-1 (460,000 vs. 150,000) but no matter. I basically agree with your point here, but I do think this is a bit different than choosing between adjectives like fast and rapid. Racial and ethnic descriptors are always dicey and often contested, to the point that there are real, intense debates about "black" vs. "African American" or "Hispanic" vs. "Latino" among folks who consider themselves members of one of those groups. Obama clearly seems to prefer (or at least more often employs) the term African American as opposed to African descent and that is also what secondary sources generally use (I'm sure anyone who has followed the campaign closely would agree that news broadcasts, newspapers, and periodicals overwhelmingly use African American or black and very rarely use "African descent" - in this respect see the Google news archives, though there are a lot of false positives there obviously). Since we are dealing with adjectives which are rather fraught, I think it makes sense to fall back on common usage, which not insignificantly also seems to coincide with the preference of the article subject. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 08:14, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

A problem with "African-American" is that it has multiple meanings/nuances in different communities, or for different readers. Certainly there is the issue of AAs having non-African ancestry (as most do), and the kerfuffle here around whether 2 grandparent is the same as 1 parent or 4 great-grandparents, etc (and whether he should be called "biracial" or the like). But also, for many readers AA insinuates "descendant of American slaves"; there's clearly a certain cultural sense to this, since that diaspora created many cultural forms and identities. In that sense, Obama isn't in the category. Similarly, many recent Caribbean or African immigrants do not self-identify as African-American (despite having the same skin tone and roughly the same ancestry as people who do); as an anecdote, I found it interesting that a friend of mine who is a joint citizen of the USA and a Caribbean nation said that he was not African-American, but any kids he had (here in the USA) would be.

The form that mentions his Kenyan father and African ancestry manages to be more precise without sounding forced or using circumlocution. And contrary to the below discussed Jr/II thing, the "Google test" shows close enough usage. Yeah, the ancestry version is 2-3x less common, but it's not rare (i.e. > 10x predominance of AA). LotLE×talk 20:20, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Just a quick point, you are absolutely correct that immigrants in the U.S. who are from Africa or the Caribbean more often than not don't identify as African American. I live in a largely West Indian neighborhood (though that's not my ethnic background), and a lot of the folks here who hail from Jamaica or Trinidad might actually take some offense at being called African American (for reasons which are not at all worth getting into). However as your friend says their children would generally be considered African American. For example the parents of a friend of mine are both from Trinidad, but my friend was born and grew up in NYC and has never even been to Trinidad. He absolutely self-identifies as African American (which is not to say he discounts his Trinidadian heritage at all). I think that is basically the situation with Obama and explains why he self-identifies as African American and is also generally so identified in secondary sources.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 07:25, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm totally opposed to not using the wording used by the Senate historian, the media, and Obama himself. "African American" is appropriate, and I oppose the change. See Bigtime's comments above. Shem^(talk) 20:55, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

In addition to using a terminology that isn't overly common within the US, I'm also concerned that in the context it is being used that may be a bit of WP:OR. I haven't seen a reliable source that has said that Obama is the first American of African descent to be the presumptive nominee for a major party, it's always been the first AA.. or the first black.. Without a reliable source using that terminology we have no way of knowing if one of the previous presumptive nominees for a major party had an African ancestor somewhere in their tree. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 21:39, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Why not split the difference and say both that he is "African American" while keeping Fovean Author's language (at the top of this section). The fact is that it's important that he is perceived by many as an African American (certainly important to a lot of African American voters, judging from the primaries), and it's also been important that he's of this particular heritage. Of course, it's explained in the article anyway, but it's worth noting that he's a "first" and worth emphasizing with Fovean Author's language that he's got this particular heritage. I think Shirley Chisholm and Collin Powell were not descended from American slaves, but they were/are descended from Caribbean slaves, right? Anyway, we don't need to explore all the ins and outs of it if we include both "African American" and Fovean Author's brief explanation. I'll support whatever the majority wants just in order to get a consensus. Noroton (talk) 22:28, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Because it is unnecessary to say that he is AA because his father is from Kenya. The lead section is supposed to be a summary of the entire article and including his father's birthplace in the lead is an unnecessary detail that does not add anything to the article. If someone is all twisted up about how Obama is classified as an "African American" they can read the Early life and career section where his father's birth place is mentioned. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 22:39, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more. --Floridianed (talk) 23:23, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, that's pretty clear - you've convinced me that it's less than universal to describe Americans as being "of African descent" and that people may not always understand that as being synonymous with "African-American". I'm perfectly fine with describing him as the first AA major presidential candidate, as we do, and then mentioning his parentage and cultural heritage in more detail farther down. I do think there's room for describing his mixed-race status if that can be reliably sourced and meet weight concerns (but not to use the word "Mulatto" because that's occasionally considered derogatory or archaic in the US). Wikidemo (talk) 23:37, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

The problem with this approach is, not only is he nowhere near the first Presidential Candidate with African parentage, five others with higher percentage have won the office, some of them Democrats. So what's he first at? -Syberghost (talk) 14:14, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Let me restate the problem; on the first paragraph of this entry, we have a statement that is a campaign proclamation of Senator Obama's campaign, but is not factual. Senator Obama claims he will be the first African-American Presidential nominee of a major political party in the United States. In order to test this claim we must establish two facts: 1) That Barack Obama is an African-American. 2) That no previous nominee has been African-American. Let's look at #2 first. Andrew Jackson was 50% black. His older brother was even sold as a slave, which was only legal for blacks. This alone disproves Obama's statement, and is sufficient for removing the campaign propaganda from this article. However, we should, for completeness, examine the first claim as well. We know he is 50% Caucasian. There is evidence he is over 43% Arab. In Kenya, Arab African is a racial classification distinct from African Negro. In the US, since Ex parte Mohriez in 1944, Arabs are considered Caucasian. Thus, legally, Barack Obama is 93% Caucasian. By what stretch of the imagination is a man who is 93+% White and less than 7% Black a Black man? That's a question that isn't to my knowledge answered by US law, but I'd be very surprised if it's never been answered to US courts, because there are many government programs for which that answer would determine eligibility, such as minority preferences in government contracts. In any case, however, the claim in the first paragraph has been proven false, and should be modified at the very least with a disclaimer that the claim is in dispute. -Syberghost (talk) 01:54, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Please see WP:FRINGE. Thanks! --Bobblehead ^(rants) 02:05, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

He's not African-America -I can't believe this is not accurately addressed in wikipedia. My mother is from Mongolian and my father is of mixed European descent. I cannot rightly call myself a "mongolian america" any more than Obama called me called a "african-american". The phrase is misleading and people need to respect myself and others of 'mixed race'. There will only be more of us in the future. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.45.10.241 (talk) 04:51, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

"Of African descent" history

I see that this conversation has gotten a bit skewed, and I wanted to address the original topic of this section without being associated with the "out there" comments that had gotten inserted; that's the reason for this subsection.

I think that this term, "of African descent" is perfect. In fact, I had originally tried to insert it in the article nearly two years ago. The problem with "African-American" is that it has a connotation very different for many people—namely, someone who is descended from slaves. Indeed, early in his campaign their were a few African-Americans who verbalized that, because of his ancestry, Obama was not "one of them". Now personally, I think that a person's self-identification should be used (unless of course, the person's self-identification is a patent fabrication. Obama does have the right to call himself an African-American. But it would also be equally accurate for us to call him an American of African descent; it doesn't contradict his self-identification, and it respects the logic of those who limit African-Americans to the descendents of slaves.

I don't really care one way or the other. But I think that Fovean Author's suggestion is worth supporting, as it is as NPOV as they come, IMHO. Unschool (talk) 02:52, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

One thing that I've been thinking about that may make a difference in which wording we use is that "American of African descent" is actually different than "African-American", particularly in regards to how race is used in the United States. American of African descent just means that your ancestors came from Africa and is not a representation of a person's "race", as an example, a Caucasian whose parents are from South Africa is an American of African descent because of where their parents came from, but would not be considered an African-American. This would be similar to an African-American whose ancestors spent a decent amount of time in Europe before coming to the US, they are African-American by race, but Americans of European descent by lineage. So, just in case I wasn't clear, ancestry is different than race. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 18:51, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Why not go by Wikipedia and look up "African American"? :) --Floridianed (talk) 19:41, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Good idea. And that article says 55% of whites in America consider him white, and 44% of blacks in America consider him white. Which is fringe theory according to User:Bobblehead. In any even, whether you use the "one-drop rule" or consider percentages, Andrew Jackson still beat him to it by a couple of centuries. Evidently thinking Andrew Jackson was President is fringe theory too. But clearly, the consensus on this issue is that biographical information about Obama will consist of campaign press releases instead of factual information, so I'll just leave it until things have cooled off in a couple of years. Nobody expects Wikipedia to be accurate about anything political these days anyway. -Syberghost (talk) 19:55, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Heh. No.. WP:FRINGE is your theory that there have been 5 African American presidents. Additionally, Wikipedia does not use opinion polls to determine content. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 20:04, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Forget the poll. Polls are about what question is given and in that case it was: "...when they are told that he has a white mother...". Would they've just been ask what they consider him without a lead the result would have been totally different. Focus on the whole article, not that poll. --Floridianed (talk) 20:22, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

And the poll is from December 2006. People hardly knew anything about him if at all. --Floridianed (talk) 20:29, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

As a history teacher I can't in good conscience let Syberghost's comments go unanswered. The Andrew Jackson "theory," such as it, seems to come from a book by Joel Augustus Rogers written over 40 years ago. I'd never heard of it but it seems to basically be an unsourced and utterly speculative pamphlet written by someone pushing a POV (as we say around these parts). It's also fundamentally wrong from what I can tell. Andrew Jackson's parents were immigrants from Ireland (they were white, as was basically everyone in Ireland at that time). His father died not well before he was born as Rogers seems to contend, but rather just a few weeks prior to Andrew's birth. The claim that Jackson was African American is simply not true and is so fringe and bizarre that I'd never even heard it before (and I'm aware of a lot of fringe theories about American history).

Three of the other presidents Syberghost is mentioning as "black" are Jefferson, Lincoln, and Calvin Coolidge. From what I can tell the rationale for these (coming from Rogers) is also speculative nonsense (for example one of the points against Lincoln is that his opponents drew cartoons of him as though he were black - hardly surprising given Lincoln's opposition to slavery and supposed status as a "Negro lover" in the hateful white supremacist jargon of the day).

For a long time it has been rumored that Warren G. Harding had an African American great grandmother. The rumor was popularized by William Chancellor, a raging racist and partisan Democrat who feared that Harding would be the first black president and was part of some racial conspiracy. Rumors that the Hardings were partially of African descent were in the air in their part of Ohio before Harding ever sought the presidency, but they were never proven then and have never been proven since. It's possible that there is some truth to those rumors, but as of now they remain rumors and nothing more. Thus our best information, based on reliable sources, at this point is that Obama, if elected, would be the first African American president. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 19:29, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

If the percentage of various components of one's ancestry are not relevant, then we're all African-Americans, and I'd like to sign my business up as minority-owned for contract preferences please. After all, my ancestors did come from Africa at one point, even if by eventual way of Ireland. -Syberghost (talk) 17:57, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Then let's talk about Wright, Rezko and Ayers

These are the three most disputed topics in the biography. Anyone can see from the "Lewinsky scandal" and "Whitewater and other investigations" in the Hillary Clinton biography (despite separate articles about these topics), and the two paragraphs about the Keating Five scandal in the John McCain biography (despite separate article about Keating Five) that Wikipedia biographies about presidential candidates explore controversies and scandals in substantial detail, even as the campaign is going on.

A review of the George W. Bush and John Kerry biographies during the 2004 campaign confirms that this practice is the well-established standard at Wikipedia. See this version of the Bush biography in October 2004, containing some version of the word "critic" or "criticize" 13 times and at least one direct quote from a Bush critic on global warming, and this version of the Kerry biography from October 2004, containing Bush criticisms of Kerry regarding the central campaign issue of the Iraq war despite the existence of the John Kerry presidential campaign, 2004 article.

We see the same pattern for other prominent politicians such as Tony Blair, Stephen Harper, John Howard, Angela Merkel, Vladimir Putin, Silvio Berlusconi and Nicolas Sarkozy. Despite the fact that they were involved in political campaigns to be elected or re-elected as president or prime minister, and despite the existence of separate articles (in some cases) that covered the campaign, their biographies discussed campaign related controversies in detail. This is the established consensus at Wikipedia. It represents the consensus of thousands of WP editors. Claiming that Wright, Rezko and Ayers should be excluded for the sake of summary style or WP:BLP concerns is disingenuous, to put it charitably. Since notable critics are using Wright, Rezko and Ayers against Obama, and since information about these three men comes from many neutral and reliable sources, they belong in this biography. WorkerBee74 (talk) 20:19, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

No one is talking about excluding them (besides Ayers). It's about finding consensus about the extend of information given in Obama's article. Once again, this is not Wright's or Rezko's (and neither Ayers') biography. So let's start again in a calm and civilized way. --Floridianed (talk) 20:35, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

That's what I'm doing: starting again in a calm and civilized way. Ayers belongs in the article. Based on these other biographies I've cited, since political opponents and the neutral press are mentioning Ayers, this biography should mention Ayers. WorkerBee74 (talk) 20:40, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a strong argument for including things here. In covering any political scandal within a politican's biography we ought to keep in mind a few things: cover only what is relevant to the politician himself, provide enough context for links to other related articles but avoid WP:FORKing content that is covered elsewhere, keep WP:WEIGHT in line with importance to the politician's life and career. By that standard the interaction between Obama and Ayers is an insignificant event to Obama's life, important only to the extent that it is the subject of partisan attacks by his opponents in connection with this particular election and already treated as such in the campaign article(s) and its own article. It has gotten very scant coverage in proportion to the overall coverage of Obama - several hundred articles out of a total of several hundred thousand. It is therefore minutia not worth mentioning here. The other two are worth mentioning and linking to, to some degree, keeping these principles in mind. However, turning politicians' articles into lists of bad things that are said about them plunges us into the same morass of partisanship and attack politics that besets the political process. Our purpose is encyclopedic knowledge, not current events news, and by any reasonable analysis the claims made as political theater of disparaging candidates is not encyclopedic. The existence of the political theater may be, but it gets its own treatment in campaign articles. None of these things are comparable in magnitude to Monica Llewinsky (misconduct in office lead to impeachment of sitting President, threw nation into political crisis), Keating Five (senate ethics probe over political favors cost three senators their careers), or even Whitewater. Wikidemo (talk) 21:16, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikidemo, I strongly suggest you look over WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, particularly the second paragraph in the lead: When used correctly though, these comparisons are important as the encyclopedia should be consistent in the content that it provides or excludes. The problem arises when legitimate comparisons are disregarded without thought because "other stuff existing is not a reason to keep/create/etc."

See also, the last section, Precedent in usage: when an actor recently died suddenly, a discussion broke out about adding "the late" before his name in one of his movie pages. In order to judge the necessity of such a phrase, other articles of famous deceased actors could be checked, which was done. By and large, these other articles do not use this sort of reference, and thus the newest article did not. While not a strict OSE reasoning, the overarching concept remains, that of precedent and consistency throughout the Wikipedia project.

I've argued on this page before that we should generally do what we've done before in other, similar cases of this type. By looking for ways to apply the same principles across the board, we cut down on bias and we have an independent standard to look at so that we're not unconsciously acting out our own biases. None of the examples cited at the top of this section is exactly like this one -- no two ever are. Anyway, I'm not sure there's a lot of disagreement as to whether there should be coverage of Wright or Rezko, just how much. Noroton (talk) 22:42, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Well said, Noroton. Obviously we're having some trouble here working out exactly what negative information should appear in the article and to what depth. Looking to other articles for guidance and precedent is a good idea. --Floorsheim (talk) 04:40, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Is this just about Ayers, or do you have issues with content pertaining to Wright and Rezko as well? -- Rick Block (talk) 20:59, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Material on Rezko in the article as of June 15

I thought this would be useful in the discussion "Zeroing in on Rezko for now" just below. As of this point, all the material in the article on Rezko can be found in the Barack Obama#Personal life section, Paragraph 2:

The land adjacent to their house was simultaneously sold to the wife of developer Tony Rezko, a fundraiser for several prominent Illinois politicians from both major political parties, and the transaction later drew scrutiny from news outlets over Obama's dealings with Rezko. While Obama was never accused of wrongdoing, Rezko was under investigation for and later convicted of unrelated corruption charges, and Obama donated $150,000 in Rezko-linked campaign contributions to charity.

Noroton (talk) 22:31, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Zeroing in on Rezko for now

WorkerBee (and others) it would be helpful to speak in specifics rather than generalities, and to take these one at a time rather than all at once. The Ayers issue seems the most fraught, so perhaps its better to start with Wright or Rezko (I have a thought about how we might approach the Ayers issue, but let's leave that to the side right now). I agree with Floridianed in that I don't think anyone is saying Wright or Rezko should be excluded, the debate is about language. So WorkerBee, perhaps you can pick one of those and explain what you would like to change. Currently we have a paragraph on Wright and a couple of sentences on Rezko. What adjustments are you looking to make? Let's try to avoid general speechifying and (especially) uncivil comments about other editors as we discuss this.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 21:28, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Since Rezko has been mentioned in the campaign, the material about his criminal case and his past fundraising for Obama belongs in the campaign section. Like JJB did with the Ron Paul newsletter material, this should be spread through the article. A brief mention of Obama's work for Rezmar in the early life and private career section, a full paragraph in the campaign section, another full paragraph in the personal life section, and links to the related articles where Rezko is addressed in greater detail. Rezko was convicted on fundraising related federal charges. These should be itemized, because they are directly relevant to the politician himself. It was principally fundraising, but also the early Rezmar legal work and the Kenwood property deals, that links Rezko to Obama. WorkerBee74 (talk) 21:42, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Well I hope you're willing to compromise on that. It's a bit much to ask for two full paragraphs plus a third mention spread out through the entire article. I don't know who JJB is or what they did at Ron Paul, but probably that is not pertinent here. In general criticism (or events which led to criticism) should be spread throughout the article, but that does not mean individual (and fairly minor) points of criticism should be spread throughout. How about having one main paragraph in either the personal life or campaign section (the former probably makes more sense, but I'm not sure) and then a brief mention in the other section? I'd have to know the details of the Rezmar work to figure out what you are looking for there. Also I don't know what you mean by itemizing the charges of which Rezko was convicted - are you suggesting we list out every charge in the article on Obama? That seems excessive, and I don't see a problem with the current situation, though perhaps we could mention the most serious charge of which he was convicted and then allude to other charges as well. Would that work?--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 22:09, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

JJB's citation of the newsletter content dispute at the Ron Paul biography is very relevant here, since the exclusionists on that page used many of the same talking points we see recited here. But in the end, substantial newsletter related material was spread throughout that biography. Simply and briefly listing the charges for which Rezko was convicted (just five words, "bribery, fraud and money laundering") should be sufficient. All are equally serious charges, so it's difficult to pick one to mention. These could send Rezko to prison for the rest of his life. WorkerBee74 (talk) 22:20, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

(first paragraph, edit conflict with above) As to the Rezmar issue, I took a look at this article which I'm guessing is the original source for what you are alluding to. We could probably say more in the article about what kind of work Obama did at Davis, Miner, Barnhill & Galland, but the Sun Times article itself, which is obviously a very critical piece, says "Just what legal work -- and how much -- Obama did on those deals is unknown." I'm sure we can pull some stuff from that and other sources that gives a sense of what Obama did at the firm, but I'm not sure we can refer to "Rezmar legal work" because it's unclear exactly what that means or if that's even an accurate description for what was going on. If you have other reliable sources which go into more depth about this issue let me know.

Let's avoid terms like exclusionist and inclusionist - they do not help matters here. I still don't know what exactly you are talking about at Ron Paul, but really let's just focus on this article. I'd be fine with mentioning three specific charges against Rezko, so long as it's made clear that those had nothing to do with Obama as the current version explains. I'm still not seeing the case for spreading significant Rezko content throughout the article. I'm sure he can be mentioned in more than one section, but the overall controversy can easily be described in one discrete paragraph. Relative to the Wright controversy, or even Obama's "bitter" comment, the Rezko issue has not actually received as much play in the campaign (at least so far) and should not take up an inordinate amount of the Obama bio article. WP:UNDUE is very relevant here.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 22:35, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, now I see the Ron Paul discussion above, though I'm not necessarily convinced by JJB's argument. This is a different article, a different kind of controversy, and might well require a different approach.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 22:47, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

There are limits to the WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument. At some point, other stuff stops being merely "other stuff" and becomes standard, well-established WP practice. Ron Paul is only one article, and only one example of a content dispute on a biography of a famous politician, but there are many similarities. I have spent over two weeks reviewing the biographies of prominent world leaders in both WP and Britannica. Show me a WP bio on a prominent politician who's been through at least one close election since 2003, and I'll show you controversies being discussed in detail in his biography during the campaign. It is the Wikipedia way. Quotes from critics included. WorkerBee74 (talk) 23:02, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

WorkerBee74, I think there's wide agreement that some coveage of Rezko (and Wright) is worthwhile. It's the details where there may be disagreement. I think all the details will have to be defended on the grounds that they help us understand Obama himself. Bigtimepeace asked at his 21:23 post at the top of this subsection, What adjustments are you looking to make? Here's a similar question: What specific language would you like to add and where? Noroton (talk) 23:13, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I should hope it is not standard practice on Wikipedia or any serious encyclopedia (and I don't think it is) to address the underlying claims made in political attacks merely because the attacks have been made. These attacks claim facts - real, imagined, alleged, distorted, relevant, irrelevant, and out of context - that may or may not be true and may or may not be relevant to the candidate's life. If the attack itself is notable then it makes some sense to report it, but generally in an article about the campaign. But that does not bootstrap the claims made in the attack to the level of relevancy. That's how attack politics works, to get untrue and irrelevant stuff in the newspaper because the newspaper is reporting on the controversy. There is a tendency of Wikipedia to become news-is and scandal driven about current events, particularly politics, but that does not establish a precedent or consensus for doing so. Those other articles get cleaned up as well. But this one is a featured article, one of Wikipedia's most read articles about a leading Presidential candidate. This article needs to set the high standard for political articles, not mimic lower standards elsewhere.Wikidemo (talk) 23:29, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, a lot of the Rezko information (and notability) is based on news reports, which is what we footnote in the Rezko passage. I've just looked through two articles that I think put a lot of this into perspective. This Chicago Sun-Times piece gives some good background and this piece in the Washington Post is extremely good. Note the expressions of concern from Chicago people who are not presented as political attackers but local good-government types. It seems to me that some expansion would be justified here. When a candidate calls a move "boneheaded" we should think about including the quote that appears in. There should be a brief way of describing the ongoing relationship with Rezko, and we can note that Obama contacted Rezko when Obama was looking for a house. Noroton (talk) 23:38, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Given that this particular incident seems to be important and relevant enough to cover, it becomes a question of focus and weight. News sources can also be scandal-mongers and guilt by association in a partisan or nonpartisan way. We still have to separate what actually has some substance from what is just scandal for the sake of scandal. Those two sources do seem particularly good, but not that even they describe Obama's "error in judgment" as a political misjudgment given campaign dynamics, not as an ethnical lapse or anything that hints of illegality. Wikidemo (talk) 00:03, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Wikidemo, it's a bad idea to put untrue and irrelevant stuff on Wikipedia. I do think it's a good idea, though, to put the relevant and accurate facts surrounding well-known criticisms and negative viewpoints into the article. This way, readers have a picture of where the controversy is coming from. Additionally, it allows them to form a clear-headed appraisal of the situation for themselves based on good information rather than the kind Wikidemo speaks of. After all, Wikipedia is one of the only places in the world that you can reasonably expect to find such information. --Floorsheim (talk) 05:16, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I think we can agree that the land deal is worth mentioning as a significant episode in his life because it led to embarassment during the campaign, and the only reason that it was embarassing for Obama (and the reason he called it boneheaded) is because it shows he was cooperating too closely with a man who had ethical problems (even criminal problems) in dealing with elected government officials. "Avoiding the appearance of impropriety" is a standard that's been around since before Obama's time and it's called an ethical standard. It's either the mildest or near mildest of ethical standards, but it's an ethical matter, not solely a political misjudgment. There also deserves to be a sentence in that passage stating that Obama was criticized for working so closely with Rezko on the real estate deal. That criticism came not just from political opponents in the primary or from Republicans, but also from good-government types in Chicago and, I'm sure, newspaper editorials even from newspapers sympathetic to Obama. We can either state that there was widespread criticism from these corners and footnote it or add to that a quote as an example, followed by quoting Obama's word for it ("bonehead") and a one sentence quote from Obama, but we shouldn't emphasize Obama's response more than the criticism, or vice versa. The reaction can be summed up in roughly as much space as WorkerBee74 gives it in his suggestions below. Noroton (talk) 16:23, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Here are the adjustments I'm looking to make

I cannot cut and paste, so edit conflicts on a long edit can be extremely frustrating. I type about 10 WPM. Please be patient, leave this little section alone for an hour, and I'll put it together for you. All right? WorkerBee74 (talk) 23:22, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Fine by me. I've noted a couple of good sources just above. Noroton (talk) 23:40, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your patience. The first section, "Early life and career," has doubled in size during the past two days without any complaints, so I think this shows that the summary style argument has been employed selectively.

One paragraph should be expanded to read as follows. All material I suggest adding will be italicized and preceded by the boldfaced word, "Add." Material I feel should be removed will be in brackets and preceded by the boldfaced word, "Remove":

In 1993 Obama joined Davis, Miner, Barnhill & Galland, a 12-attorney law firm, [Remove: specializing in civil rights litigation and neighborhood economic development,] where he was an associate for three years, [Remove: from 1993 to 1996] then of counsel from 1996 to 2004. [Remove: with his law license becoming inactive in 2002] Add: After his election to the Illinois State Senate, he worked only during the summer. Obama worked on cases where the firm represented community organizers, and pursued discrimination claims and voting rights claims. He also worked on real estate transactions, corporate law for small businesses, and defending clients against minor lawsuits. Mostly, Obama drafted contracts and other documents for legal teams. Obama also worked on obtaining taxpayer supported building rehabilitation loans for Rezmar Corp., which is co-owned by his long-time political supporter and friend, real estate developer Tony Rezko.

This makes it less about the firm, and more about Obama. I would also like to move most of the material about Rezko's criminal case to the campaign section, in a paragraph just after the Wright paragraph:

Add: Obama also faced questions about his long alliance with Tony Rezko. Hillary Clinton called Rezko a "slumlord." On the first day of fundraising for Obama's first political campaign, more than half the money donated came from companies owned by Rezko. Over the years, Rezko donated or raised more than $250,000 for Obama's campaigns. Rezko was convicted on 16 felony charges for bribery, fraud and money laundering in June 2008, many of them related to political fundraising. While Obama has not been implicated in any crimes and has donated $150,000 in Rezko-related donations to charity, critics continued to question this relationship.

Finally, the two sentences starting with "The land adjacent to their house" in the personal life section needs to be replaced with this:

Add: Vacant land adjacent to their new home was purchased on the same day in June 2005 and from the same seller by the wife of Tony Rezko, who was already under federal investigation. Obama brought Rezko along the first time he viewed the house. While the Obamas' offer for the house was $300,000 below the asking price, Rita Rezko paid full price for the vacant land. Obama said he learned about the investigation later, but still purchased a strip of the Rezko land in January 2006 to widen his yard. Regarding this series of transactions Obama later told news media, "I consider this a mistake on my part and I regret it," admitting that it was a "boneheaded move."

Thanks for your patience. WorkerBee74 (talk) 00:15, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

...and thank you for taking the time. For the moment I won't worry about minor word tweaks. In the first of three proposed additions it's only worth mentioning Obama's assignment to Rezmar projects if that was a significant part of his legal work for the firm. Otherwise, that's just there to telescope the controversy and has nothing to do with Obama's career at that point. Many young lawyers work for clients who they already know, or who they come to know through work. Even if it is included, mentioning Rezko as Obama's "friend" and "long-time political supporter" (three different claims) should only be done in each case if it is legitimate, supported by reliable sources, and occurred before the work was done. If Rezko became a "friend" and/or a "political supporter", but only after Obama did the work on the account, it is not relevant to this part of the bio - it is only relevant to the later portion on the scandal. Not saying it should be excluded, but it could be added later to the first mention of Rezko (e.g. "...on whose project Obama had worked while an associate at....").

Regarding the second part, "long alliance" should only be used if it's sourced - I don't think the two had an "alliance" what I remember of the sources. Obama claims they ran into each other once a year. The "first day" and "more than half" is out of context and irrelevant. The only salient thing here is that Rezko raised $250K total (a small but real portion of Obama's overall fundraising). Mentioning specific charges, the number of charges, and the implication of fundraising-related charges, is completely unrelated to Obama and only serves to further guilt by association. Obama is not at all connected with these charges. The language I had earlier proposed was "federal corruption charges", which gets to the point without banging the drum unnecessarily. "Critics continue to question" is too unclear and assumes too much, that there is a "relationship" to be quesitoned.

"Vacant land...." - this is misleading without full context, which would have a weight problem. The reason the purchases closed the same day was that this was the schedule of the sales process, not that there was any dealing among the purchasers. We have another article where this has been put in full context. Best to summarize here. "Strip...yard" is also too much detail. We should simply report that there was some question raised over a real estate deal, which the article does just fine now. "Boneheaded" - he seems to have said it to a single reporter, not "the media." Even though he said it himself it presents weight problems to use an informal word of self-deprecation like this. How about saying more directly that he considers it a mistake [of what, though? - nothing illegal or unethical, but a political mistake]. Wikidemo (talk) 00:34, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Addressing some of your points, Wikidemo, take another look at the short Chicago Sun-Times piece: One of the firm's not-for-profit clients -- the Woodlawn Preservation and Investment Corp., co-founded by Obama's then-boss Allison Davis -- was partners with Rezko's company in a 1995 deal to convert an abandoned nursing home at 61st and Drexel into low-income apartments. Altogether, Obama spent 32 hours on the project, according to the firm. Only five hours of that came after Rezko and WPIC became partners, the firm says. The rest of the future senator's time was helping WPIC strike the deal with Rezko. (Number 3)

Re: Long alliance: Obama left community organizing in Chicago to go to Harvard Law School. That same Sun-Times piece says that in 1990, Rezko offered Obama a job, which Obama turned down. When Obama does go back to Chicago, his boss, Allison Davis, is involved in a partnership with Rezko's company and Obama works quite a few hours in negotiating a deal between WPIC and Rezko. Small town, Chicago, eh?

RE: Vacant land: From the Washington Post article: Obama said Rezko, who knows the neighborhood, was one of several people he called for advice on the real estate market. Rezko told him he knew the developer who renovated the house. In a later conversation, Rezko said he intended to buy the empty lot and build on it. This provides a lot of context, which we don't need to add to the article, but this shows that the "vacant land" business is not misleading. We don't need to know everything in order to present information together that shows the possibility of Obama and Rezko working together. There is no unfair implication here. Noroton (talk) 00:55, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

(ec with Noroton) This is a good start and hopefully we can come to some agreement here. I'm in agreement with Wikidemo on a couple of points. First about the work for Rezmar, as I said above unless you have a better source we can't include that. The one article I read about it made clear that no one knew to what extent Obama did work on behalf of Rezmar. The Obama campaign said he worked on things relating to Rezmar for a total of 5 billable hours during a number of years at the firm. It was actually somewhat unclear, but it seemed he may have worked on things that involved Rezmar and other companies. Just as importantly, the Sun Times article (see above for link) pointed out that Rezmar was essentially the preferred company of the Chicago mayor when it came to developing low-income housing. That Obama at his firm would have had some contact with their account (or whatever) is hardly surprising, but it seems he may have only spent a few hours working on things which were even vaguely Rezmar related. Barring more specific info, this cannot be included because a) we don't really know what was going on; b) it simply is not notable, and is a major undue weight violation for this section. You'll need to find better sourcing for this. I don't mind the other changes to that "early life and career" section.

"Long alliance" is not a term we can use even if it is sourced somewhere. For one thing it is no longer accurate - clearly Obama has no alliance with Rezko now. I would simply say "association with Tony Rezko" or something to that effect. It's not our place to characterize it as long or not. I also think the last sentence of that needs to be reworded, as it ends on a vague accusatory note and is not very NPOV as worded (shouldn't be too hard to fix though).

Probably some wording adjustments need to be made on the third paragraph but I don't know enough about all of the details of this. I'm fine with the "boneheaded" quote as regardless of its provenance that has been widely quoted. It's a telling quote and seems worthy of inclusion.

WorkerBee unless you have a better source about how much work Obama did at the law firm for Rezmar (and frankly I doubt there is one) I'm hoping you can drop that point. We can try discussing one of the other two paragraphs first. We also have to consider how to make this work for the whole article if we are mentioning Rezko twice. I could still see simply expanding the personal life section so it includes all of the Rezko information, and then putting a short paragraph in the campaign section which references the problems (maybe with a "see below" comment) and which focuses on a couple of specific criticisms during the campaign, for example quotes from Clinton and from McCain.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 01:09, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the above proposal has too many details, but more importantly, there is definitely a POV problem I'd like addressed, it contains another example of Wikipedia:NPOV_tutorial#Insinuation. " Over the years, Rezko donated or raised more than $250,000 for Obama's campaigns. Rezko was convicted on 16 felony charges for bribery, fraud and money laundering in June 2008, many of them related to political fundraising. " Two neutral statements juxtaposed in a POV manner. Modocc (talk) 01:17, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Modocc, you left out the immediate next sentence. Over the years, Rezko donated or raised more than $250,000 for Obama's campaigns. Rezko was convicted on 16 felony charges for bribery, fraud and money laundering in June 2008, many of them related to political fundraising. While Obama has not been implicated in any crimes and has donated $150,000 in Rezko-related donations to charity, critics continued to question this relationship. So why doesn't the boldfaced part answer your objection? Noroton (talk) 01:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Norton, that little part does not at all negate the insinuation. Either this POV is encapsulated with an attribution or a rewrite excludes it. Modocc (talk) 01:52, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

But my question was "why" you don't think the boldfaced part answers your objection. I think sourcing can be found for a statement that puts this whole passage into perspective. I'd rewrite to explicitly state that the charges against Rezko were not related to Obama, and (for perspective) I'd remove critics continued to question this relationship and replace it with Numerous critics questioned Obama's judgment in associating with Rezko. And the footnote to the Washington Post already in the article substantiates that. We don't call NPOV facts, "POV", when the facts are reliably sourced and their placement is logical, and the two sentences you're concerned about are what lead up to the final phrase. Wikipedia isn't accusing Obama of anything: It's presenting relevant facts. Obama didn't give that long interview with the Sun-Times because it was ridiculous for anybody to be concerned about his Rezko relationship. The fact is, Obama was criticized for associating with a guy who has been proven to be corrupt. That point is not POV. As long as that underlying point is in the article, then, if you still think the wording suggests something more, feel free to propose alternate language because I think we could all agree on it. Noroton (talk) 02:24, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Logical statements, of which the first two are an insinuation of course, and contrary to Wikipedia's core NPOV policy as I've pointed out. I've no alternative to propose, but this problem must be adequately addressed. Modocc (talk) 03:14, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikidemo and Bigtimepeace, Obama went on at length in this interview with The Chicago Sun-Times about his relationship with Rezko at various times. This is well worth reading, particularly the second time Obama speaks. Much farther down, Obama states that he still considers Rezko a "friend". I think in the context of Obama's associating with the wrong people -- not in the context of Obama being corrupt, which we already make clear -- there is enough information out there to demonstrate that we need to expand the Rezko mentions in the article. I have minor problems with WorkerBee74's additions, but not with the overall thrust. Please take a look at this interview and if anyone would like, I'll provide a few quotes from it. Noroton (talk) 01:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks I'll take a look at that, and just to be clear I don't have a problem with some expansion of the stuff on Rezko. I have specific quibbles as mentioned above, but I'm sure we can work it out. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 01:36, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

long alliance — I think the interview transcript I link to just above might actually give enough evidence for a "longtime alliance" by 2005, but I'd like to see what other people think. I agree that it's a strongly worded characterization and it's going to need airtight sourcing. Do editors think that the Sun-Times interview transcript fails to justify "longtime alliance"? Noroton (talk) 01:40, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I just noticed Bigtimepeace's objection to the word "long". I would have no problem replacing that with something like political allies from 1995 to xxxx I think the Sun-Times interview establishes that. Obama says Rezko was a "friend" who raised a significant fraction of the money for some of his races. I'm sure we can find a source for whatever the xxxx is. Noroton (talk) 02:02, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

The bad news is that I prepared a detailed refutation of Wikidemo's arguments and was edit conflicted. Remember, I can't cut and paste, and I type about 10 WPM. The good news is that Noroton covered several of the points I was trying to make. Please leave this little subsection alone for an hour and I'll retype my answer. WorkerBee74 (talk) 01:14, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

... it's only worth mentioning Obama's assignment to Rezmar projects if that was a significant part of his work for the firm. I disagree. There were many small ways in which Rezko was involved in Obama's career besides fundraising. He offered Obama a job while Obama was still in law school, for example. This is a very brief mention and is the most neutral way, without violating WP:WEIGHT, to illustrate Rezko's early contacts with Obama.

Even if it is included ... [it] should only be done in each case if it is legitimate, supported by reliable sources, and occurred before the work was done.' Of course, WD. I wouldn't have it any other way.

The "first day" and "more than half" is out of context and irrelevant. To the contrary, it shows that Rezko was really dedicated to making Obama a star from the very beginning of his political career. Donating a few thousand dollars to Obama's campaign today is a drop in the ocean. But giving the same amount of money to Obama on his first day in politics, as a complete unknown, was far more significant.

... "long alliance" should only be used if it's sourced ... I think 10+ years is a long time for a 46-year-old man. For the word "alliance," this source should be good enough: [4]

... Rezko raised $250K total (a small but real portion of Obama's overall fundraising). Again, you underestimate the importance of early money in politics, also called "seed money." For all of Obama's campaigns before his US Senate run, he received an aggregate total of less than $500K from all sources. In those days, Rezko was providing the lion's share of Obama's fundraising. His importance to Obama before the US Senate run cannot be overstated. He was at least as essential to State Senator Obama as oxygen to a scuba diver.

Thanks for your continued patience with my pathetic skills on a computer. Hire the handicapped. More later. WorkerBee74 (talk) 02:02, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

We really cannot include every little detail about Rezko and Obama. To the extent we discuss Rezko, we are not going to chronicle their entire relationship from start to finish, rather only highlight what is most critical. For example Rezko offered Obama a job but he turned it down. I don't think that remotely bears mentioning because it adds literally nothing to the article in terms of our understanding of Obama or even his relationship with Rezko. Likewise Obama apparently spent 5 hours working on something connected to Rezko's company while he was at a law firm. But in the lengthy interview linked by Noroton above, Obama specifically explains that he hardly knew Rezko then and did not form a real relationship with him until later. His law firm specialized in the same area (low-income housing) in which Rezko worked, so there is really nothing notable or interesting in that Obama worked on something connected to Rezko's business while a young associate of the firm. I also agree that it's just silly to mention what Rezko kicked in for contributions on the first day of an Obama campaign. Total fundraising, absolutely (though you are incorrect to say that Rezko raised the "lion's share" of Obama's money, at least according to the interview with Obama), but we don't need to go into the minutiae. As I said some compromise is going to be needed here so you need to be a bit flexible.

Also I think we can easily come up with more neutral language that "long alliance" and I think Noroton's proposal above makes sense in that regard. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 02:54, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Bigtimepeace generally that we're going to have to limit coverage of Rezko in this article. I want to read through this section again before coming to any conclusions about specific language, but anything about Rezko included here is going to have to be clearly illuminating about Obama, and it's got to be important. Details are going to have to be very limited, and we'll need to justify them as important in helping the reader to understand something important about Obama. Obama, in that Sun-Times interview, mentions that Rezko was an important early contributor and he describes how, so there's something to that, and I bet we can describe it very succinctly. But Obama's lawyer work with Rezko in '93 or so may be dubious. Let's try to look at it all with fresh eyes tomorrow. Noroton (talk) 04:45, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Compromise

After reviewing everyone's input, I think we can find some middle ground for a compromise. In that section on personal life and career, the paragraph about the Davis law firm needs to be rewritten the way I did it, to make it more about Obama and less about the law firm, but remove the last sentence about the work he did for Rezmar. I will make that concession in order to reach a compromise.

The concession I'm asking in return is for you to accept the term "long alliance" as fair, accurate and well-sourced; that critics are questioning this relationship and that it was a relationship (which, again, is accurate and well-sourced); that the 16 charges should be summarized as shown ("bribery, fraud and money laundering") with the clear caveat that Obama hasn't been implicated in any crimes: that for the early fundraising, such terms as "first day" and "more than half" are not only relevant, but exactly the sort of context that WP summary style requires; and that the level of detail I've provided about the real estate deals, including the "boneheaded" remark and the second deal for the 10-foot strip of land (at a time when Obama admits he knew Rezko was under investigation), also is necessary for the context required by WP summary style.

To summarize, I propose that we get rid of the sentence about Rezmar, but keep the rest as I've presented it above. Remember, I can provide several examples of politicians' WP biographies that contained detailed explorations of the controversies their opponents were exploiting. Even in the middle of a hotly contested campaign, and even with a WP article elsewhere that focused entirely on the campaign. The two best examples of this well-established practice are George W. Bush in October 2004, with a separate article about the campaign and 13 various conjugations of the words "critic" and "criticism" in the biography, and Hillary Clinton in March 2008, with a separate article about the campaign and two separate sections on controversies with bold section headers, "Lewinsky scandal" and "Whitewater and other investigations," in the biography.

This is the Wikipedia way. It is well-established practice and we should follow these precedents. WorkerBee74 (talk) 18:04, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. That doesn't sound like much of a compromise, though. Even if we were to accept that campaign-oriented criticisms are a desirable feature of bio articles on politicians there has to be a limit, and standard for inclusion and for what and how to present them. My objection to each of those is based on what I think is the best standard - weight, relevance, avoiding forking controversial issues, and maintaining neutrality. Wikidemo (talk) 18:23, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Even if we were to accept that campaign-oriented criticisms are a desirable feature of bio articles on politicians ... All fairly presented criticisms representing a non-fringe POV are not only desirable, but necessary according to WP:NPOV, so all of us need to accept that fact. Since we are writing a biography about a politician who is running for president, all fairly presented criticisms are, or could become, campaign-oriented.

... there has to be a limit, and standard for inclusion ... Hillary was completely cleared in Whitewater and all other investigations during the Clinton years, and was never even implicated in the Lewinsky scandal, yet both are discussed at length under bold section headers in her WP biography. McCain was also completely cleared in the Keating Five investigation, but there are two full paragraphs about it in his WP biography. There's even a little mention of this flap about lobbyists, even though lobbying is perfectly legal. So I believe the limit and the standard for inclusion are well established.

... weight, relevance, avoiding forking controversial issues and maintaining neutrality ... Again, these concerns have yielded to lengthy explorations of controversy in biographies of other prominent politicians, even while they are engaged in hotly contested elections for president or prime minister, and even when there's a separate article about the campaign. Bush, Blair, Howard, Kerry, Sarkozy, Harper, Putin, Hillary Clinton, Angela Merkel, and a host of other politicians have been treated exactly this way. Why must Obama be treated any differently?

Is there anyone else who may offer a convincing argument that would support treating the Obama bio any differently than the other bios I've mentioned? I have an open mind. I am willing to listen and I'm prepared to be convinced, but the number of other politicians' biographies that include detailed examination of controversies is overwhelming. WorkerBee74 (talk) 19:35, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

It sounds to me as if you're flatly dismissing the idea of applying weight and relevance this article. We are talking about editing this article, not any other article. But it is simply not the case that any of those articles present "all fairly present criticisms representing a non-fringe POV", nor that NPOV demands we shoehorn them all into a bio article. Again, Keating Five and Whitewater were much more significant controversies than those sought to be included here - there are no doubt plenty of less signficant or relevant controversies for each of those politicians too that are left out of their bio articles. Wikidemo (talk) 19:49, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm certainly not "flatly dismissing the idea of applying weight and relevance to this article." I'm saying that they have been applied, and this is the appropriate result in light of all the other WP bios about similarly situated politicians. Keating Five and Whitewater were much more significant controversies ... Then you shouldn't have any trouble finding two or three reliable, neutral experts in political science who have said that. Is there a good reason why you want the Obama biography in 2008 to be written differently than the Bush biography in October 2004, which contained the words "critic," "criticize" and "criticism" at least 13 times? WorkerBee74 (talk) 20:08, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikidemo, I hope that you are ready to accept that campaign controversies are a desirable feature of this article. Myself and others have supplied reasons for that many times. Obama's primary notability is his presidential campaign. The controversies are relevant to the campaign (because they have influenced it) and they are well-sourced. Additionally, they have in all likely events affected his public perception. Therefore, they belong in on the grounds that they have affected his notable traits. I've pointed to policies and essays here on Wikipedia supporting this argument. The sum of what I've heard in response is "Just because it says to do it in policies and essays doesn't mean we have to," which is not a counterargument, and "Public perception gets influenced for all kinds of silly reasons," which is true but irrelevant. It doesn't matter if public perception gets influenced for silly reasons or not. The important point is that it has been influenced. That is an effect on a person's noteworthy trait of how they are perceived by the public. Anything that affects the subject of an article's noteworthy traits (in a significant way) belongs in because it is part of the overall story surrounding that person.

Also, why are you so opposed to forking controversial issues? It is not against standard practice here at Wikipedia to fork content. Why do you think controversial content should be treated differently? Isn't that a breach of neutrality?

--Floorsheim (talk) 21:46, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I believe WorkerBee74's "compromise" position is the same position many objected to and that was edit-warred over, only thankfully now in a civil environment and without edit warring. So no, it is great that we are now in a collegial mood but that does not make the material any more appropriate than it was to begin with. This is a biography of Obama, not a chronology of campaign swipes. Certain things that are notable and relevant to his life have indeed become controversies, and they are covered here: the Rezko scandal and the Trinity Church scandal, the two biggest controversies of his political career. But no, I do not agree that we should create a fork here of every aspect of every controversy that affects the campaign. If we did that, why have multiple articles to begin with? The campaign section of this article is six paragraphs, too long as it is in my opinion. Devoting a whole paragraph to Rezko and another to Wright means 1/3 of the entire campaign is devoted to these two scandals. Adding more would tip the balance even further in the wrong direction. The reasons to avoid duplication are multiple and hardly need repeating. When material is duplicated everything has to be added twice. They start diverging - you get both redundancy and contradiction. Everyone has to watch both pages, and discussions on the exact same issue may have opposite results. Most importantly, it is a disservice to the readers, who no longer can trust that the hyperlinks and hierarchical organization of the article can reliably get them to the appropriate place where a subject is treated. They have to sort and wade through multiple articles, and reading the same material twice or more is unhelpful. As I have stated before this is an organizational issue that affects all of Wikipedia, controversial articles or not. I have given some examples of noncontroversial cases. The list of parent articles that do not overly duplicate their child articles is more or less endless. Where it is controversial material being duplicated there are additional concerns. There are no policies or guidelines that urge us to include this stuff in detail - there are only some policies that fail to prohibit it. I also don't accept the argument that irrelevancies can shoehorn their way into notability by being used in the context of the political attack. The attack itself may be relevant and notable, if it goes to a core issue about the person. But that does not make the underlying details notable. Bill O'Reilly and his liberal counterparts do not get to buy real estate in Wikipedia by repeating attacks vociferously enough that the news media fact check the underlying details. You pose the question as to whether Rezko has affected public perception of Obama in a notable way. As evidenced by the coverage of this issue by mainstream media relative to the campaign overall, no. The coverage of Rezko in proportion to the overall coverage of Obama is minuscule. Probably enough to include a sentence or two but not enough to justify a substantial portion of the article. I have made specific objections to specific details proposed for inclusion in the article. I haven't seen any detailed answer as to why rezko's specific charges, the details about the "first day" of campaigning, the characteristic of the relationship with Rezko as a "long alliance", etc., are fit for inclusion, only a broad argument that controversies are worth repeating. Wikidemo (talk) 22:50, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I haven't seen your detailed criticisms of WorkerBee74's language that you refer to. Please tell me where they are. I'd like to see what specifically you find wrong with his language. Noroton (talk) 23:33, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Do we have consensus here, Floorsheim? After I conceded that sentence about Rezmar from the early life and private career section, I didn't notice any concession in response from Wikidemo. Are they unwilling to compromise?

And Wikidemo, does the objection of one editor (you) mean that consensus can't be achieved? Are you willing to make any concessions to reach a compromise on this content? WorkerBee74 (talk) 22:57, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Consensus? No, the discussion has just begun and many interested parties (myself included) have not yet had a chance to weigh in. I'm still reading through the above discussion. The main problem I see is that there seems to be some confusion/overlap between Rezko as a campaign issue for Obama (which is notable and should be included) and Rezko as a biographical factor in Obama's life (which is not, unless one is trying to conflate the controversy with these biographical details). Many of your arguments, WB74, revolve around trying to demonstrate that Rezko is notable to Obama's early life because of financial support or influence. But there are many supporters who were far more influential in these early days who are not even mentioned, much less with this level of detail and you're not clamoring to add details on them. Why? Well, none of them are controversial. I support discussing Rezko as a campaign issue. I strongly oppose attempts to weave Rezko's name throughout the early biography simply to push the POV that he is the driving force behind Obama's political career and that Obama is tainted by his corruption. --Loonymonkey (talk) 23:14, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Well put and agreed, Loonymonkey. Your description of proper weighting in this BLP is spot-on. Shem^(talk) 04:52, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the "attempts to weave Rezko's name throughout the early biography simply to push the POV," I have already conceded that the sentence about Rezmar can be left out of the early life section. But in other Wikipedia biographies, as Jimbo Wales has instructed, we've woven criticism and controversy throughout the article rather than concentrating it in a "criticism and controversy" section. Why should this article be treated differently than George W. Bush was treated in October 2004? WorkerBee74 (talk) 19:52, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

The problem I see is that the land transaction issue is a single thing - a chain of real estate transactions, together with the fact that Rezko is a criminal and an Obama fundraiser. And the controversy is a single issue. The controversy only makes sense when you add all those ingredients in combination, so there has to be one place where they're all brought together. Scattering one piece of that in one section and another piece in another section is like baking three batches of cookies and putting flour in one, eggs in another, and butter in a third. It doesn't really matter where they're all brought together. It might make sense in the campaign section, the legislative history section, or somewhere else, but if you're going to do anything more than a bare reference plus a link, you need at least two sentence in a row I think to get even a bare bones statement of what the issue is. Wikidemo (talk) 20:09, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

A different proposal

We're here to write a good article, not to trade horses. The text as it now exists in the article already represents some compromise and consensus among many editors, and inclusion of controversial details. I'm okay with some expansion and clarification, which one might consider a "compromise" position, and have proposed that below. To expand and reiterate some objections:

• 1st sec. Mention of Rezmar should be moved out of "early life" section, which I think WorkerBee has agreed. It can and should be referenced in the campaign section as background for the relationship / controversy (which I've proposed, below)
• 2nd section. "Long alliance" overstates relationship and is unnecessary analysis / conclusion. Why not simply report the events? I called it a "relationship", which is netural.
• 2nd section. Hillary Clinton called Rezko a "slumloard" - What Hillary Clinton thinks is an irrelevant detail that tends to disparage Obama and Rezko without adding anything encyclopedic to the article.
• 2nd section. On the first day of Fundraising for Obama's first political campaign, more than half the money donated came from companies owned by Rezko - irrelevant, and entirely subsumed within statement that Rezko raised and donated $250K. Adding a sentence that attempts to show that Rezko is more important to Obama than he really is, raises weight concerns.
• 2nd section. While obama has not been....charity - fine but I propose refactoring this.
• 2nd section. Critics continued to question this relationship - too vague. We already report that a controversy arose. Saying that critics question the relationship is a weight issue because overall, in proportion to overall coverage of Obama, criticism of the relationship is a very minor issue.
• 3rd section. Vacant land adjacent to their new home was purchased on the same day....investigation - saying this, without underlying details is misleading. It was a condition of the sale, and the seller's instructions, that resulted in the simultaneous closing. The sentence implies collusion between Obama and Rezko's wife, something that was never shown or seriously alleged.
• 3rd section. While the Obamas' offer for the house was $300,000 below the asking price.... - this fact is a red herring and serves here in this article as criticism by innuendod. It suggests collusion when there was none.
• 3rd section. Regarding this series of transactions... "boneheaded move" - I will grudgingly accept the "boneheaded" comment even if it's only from one source apparently, but we should make clear that what Obama considers the mistake was doing business with a campaign donor, not doing business with someone under investigation (he claims he did not know at the time and when he found out he accepted Rezko's assurance that it wasn't a big deal).

- Wikidemo (talk) 23:46, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

WorkerBee, while I can understand the frustration of offering a concession and not having it responded to in kind, I'd like to continue seeing the discussion process through. We have some skilled people involved now. I genuinely think we can reach a reasonable compromise. Definitely appreciate the time and effort you have put into putting forward something concrete. Perhaps Wikidemo can take the time to put forward something concrete as well.

Wikidemo, I can understand the issues you have with WB74's suggestions. I agree there may be too much weight/detail. The level of detail, in my view, should be just enough to explain and give the context of the controversy, that is, to make it clear what the controversy is and why the controversy is there. I also agree there should be a higher tolerance for inclusion in the campaign article subsection of this article than in the main campaign article and that this should apply equally well to controversies as it does to anything else. I do not agree with the "it's too hard" argument against including relevant material consistently in both places. Although, as you have pointed out, there are many parent/child articles that do not contain duplicate information, as I have pointed out, there are many that do. The standard for whether or not to duplicate must clearly be whether or not the information is relevant to both articles, which probably has a lot to do with how important the subject matter of the child article is to the parent article. In our case, Obama's presidential campaign is his primary notable trait. Also, do not agree that the presidential campaign section is necessarily too long.

--Floorsheim (talk) 00:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Loonymonkey, it would help this discussion, and it wouldn't hurt your position at all, if we all stopped talking about "push the POV" or "POV pushing". Please just address the problems as you see them. I agree, we need to wait a bit more. I need to read through it again, too, and I want to see more of what Bigtimepeace thinks. Rezko is certainly a biographical factor in Obama's life. Please also read the two Chicago Sun-Times pieces and the Washington Post piece linked to in the above discussion (the transcript of the interview with Obama is huge, but it's got a lot of information from Obama's own statements that are very relevant to parts of this discussion). I don't think you can say that Rezko was an unimportant part of Obama's life, although I wouldn't call him very important. The fact that a guy has been convicted in connection with his dealings with politicians and that he was an important supporter of Obama -- in Obama's own words -- means that there's a good case to be made for explaining that relationship. I still want to look over it more and consider whether or not it can be shortened. Noroton (talk) 23:33, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. I absolutely respect the need to keep the discussion civil, but if I am objecting to efforts to add material that appears to be non-NPOV, then there really isn't a way to avoid such terms. I am not attacking any editors, I am criticizing edits. As for your points on the discussion, you make a good case for the fact that Rezko should be mentioned as an election controversy, but not as a biographical element. Again, Rezko was by no means the most influential of Obama's early supporters and there isn't any effort to weave the names and biographical details of non-controversial Chicago politicos into this article. The issue needs to be addressed for what it is, a campaign controversy with relevant facts explained, but repeatedly mentioning his name throughout all aspects of his early life and career gives far too much weight to the controversy. It is worth noting that in the proposed edits above, Rezko is mentioned more often than Michelle Obama in that section. Are we to believe Rezko is the more important biographical figure in Obama's life? That's simply ridiculous. --Loonymonkey (talk) 00:19, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I really don't want to rush anyone. We can discuss this again in the morning. By that time, more editors will read the two paragraphs I've proposed and express their views. However, if anyone has the names and reliable sources to support the claim that other people gave Obama greater financial support in the early years, let's see those names and those sources. WorkerBee74 (talk) 23:43, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

You have things backwards, WorkerBee. Loonymonkey has cordially asked that you explain why, among all of Obama's early supporters, Rezko deserves singling out in a biographical account of Obama's early life. You've responded by trying to shift the burden of proof to him -- "tell me why Rezko wasn't his most notable early fundraiser, and until you do the article should be worded as if he was" appears to be your counter. You talk quite a bit about "compromise," but haven't ceded an inch in your drive to weave Rezko throughout multiple parts of the article. Shem^(talk) 04:58, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that clarification. See my other comments about following the well-established practice of Wikipedia biographies about prominent politicians. Also, the "drive to weave [criticism] throughout multiple parts of the article" isn't coming from me. It's coming from Jimbo Wales.

In one of the essays cited here, Jimbo Wales says that criticism and controversy should not be concentrated in a "criticism and controversy" section. It should be sprinkled as evenly as possible throughout the article. So yes, we do have a duty "to weave Rezko throughout multiple parts of the article." Again I cite the October 2004 version of the George W. Bush article. There are many other examples like it. This is the Wikipedia way. WorkerBee74 (talk) 19:41, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Another proposal

In early life section:

In 1993 Obama joined Davis, Miner, Barnhill & Galland, a 12-attorney law firm specializing in civil rights litigation and neighborhood economic development, where he was an associate for three years from 1993 to 1996, then of counsel from 1996 to 2004, with his law license becoming inactive in 2002. After his election to the Illinois State Senate he allowed his law license to become inactive, and he worked only during the summer. His work involved representing community organizers, and pursuing discrimination and voting rights claims. He also worked on real estate transactions, corporate law for small businesses, and defending clients against minor lawsuits, mostly drafting contracts and other documents for the firm's legal teams.

Add to campaign section:

During the campaign Obama faced questions about his relationship with developer Tony Rezko, co-owner of Rezmar, a client on whose cases Obama had worked at Davis Miner. Rezko was a fundraiser for several prominent Illinoise politicians of both major parties, who raised more than $250,000 for Obama's political campaigns over the years, including his own contributions. Obama's home purchase in Kenwood had closed the same day as Rezko's wife purchased a vacant parcel next door from the same seller, per the seller's instructions. Later, Obama purchased a strip of the Rezkos' land to widen his yard. Although Obama was never implicated Rezko was under indictment at the time, and was later convicted, on federal corruption charges, some involving campaign contributions. Obama later called his decision to engage in financial transactions with a fundraiser a "mistake" and a "boneheaded move" on his part, but claimed that he did not learn of the investigation of Rezko until after his house purchase. After the controversy arose Obama donated $150,000 of Rezko-related campaign contributions to charity.

In "personal life section"

Applying the proceeds of a book deal,[155] the family moved in 2005 from a Hyde Park, Chicago condominium to their current $1.6 million house in neighboring Kenwood.[156] The land adjacent to their house was simultaneously sold to the wife of developer Tony Rezko, a fundraiser for several prominent Illinois politicians from both major political parties[157], and the transaction later drew scrutiny from news outlets over Obama's dealings with Rezko. While Obama was never accused of wrongdoing, Rezko was under investigation for and later convicted of unrelated corruption charges, and Obama donated $150,000 in Rezko-linked campaign contributions to charity.[158] In December 2007, Money magazine estimated the Obama family's net worth at $1.3 million.[159] Their 2007 tax return showed a household income of $4.2 million, up from about $1 million in 2006 and $1.6 million in 2005, mostly from sales of his books.[160]

-- Wikidemo (talk) 23:26, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm getting the impression that we have a consensus on the "Early life" section, based on everything that everyone who's participated in this has said. Wikidemo's proposal seems to be about what WorkerBee74 said was acceptable. Am I right about consensus on that part? Noroton (talk) 23:42, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

My proposal for the "early life section" is the same in substance as WB74's as far as I can tell, with the only difference being phrasing. I've tried to stay as close to that proposal throughout, and despite the disagreement I don't see the actual differences in the other two sections as being terribly vast when you look at them. Wikidemo (talk) 23:50, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

So far, but there are several people who haven't shown up here yet, who contributed with tremendous energy just one week ago. Let's wait until tomorrow morning to make the edit. WorkerBee74 (talk) 23:53, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not saying we should close discussion, I meant to say "do we have agreement on that 'Early life' section language so far." Sorry I wasn't clearer. Yes, let's wait another day. Noroton (talk) 00:03, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

WorkerBee, while I can understand the frustration of offering a concession and not having it responded to in kind, I'd like to continue seeing the discussion process through. We have some skilled people involved now. I genuinely think we can reach a reasonable compromise. Definitely appreciate the time and effort you have put into putting forward something concrete. Perhaps Wikidemo can take the time to put forward something concrete as well.

Wikidemo, I can understand the issues you have with WB74's suggestions. I agree there may be too much weight/detail. The level of detail, in my view, should be just enough to give the context of the controversy, that is, to make it clear why the controversy is there. I also agree there should be a higher tolerance for inclusion in the campaign article subsection of this article than in the main campaign article and that this should apply equally well to controversies as it does to anything else. I do not agree with the "it's too hard" argument against including relevant material consistently in both places. Although, as you have pointed out, there are many parent/child articles that do not contain duplicate information, as I have pointed out, there are many that do. The standard for whether or not to duplicate must clearly be whether or not the information is relevant to both articles, which probably has a lot to do with how important the subject matter of the child article is to the parent article. In our case, Obama's presidential campaign is his primary notable trait. Also, do not agree that the presidential campaign section is necessarily too long.

--Floorsheim (talk) 23:56, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Whoops. Not entirely sure how that wound up in two places. Sorry bout that. Wikidemo's proposal would be fine with me. --Floorsheim (talk) 02:16, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to look over the Obama interview with the Sun-Times and then I might suggest some changes in this language based on what Obama himself said about what happened. What I'm looking at in particular is the description of the real-estate transaction and Obama's own description of his relationship with Rezko. I'll find the quotes (not that we have to use quotes, necessarily) and come back here. I want everyone to see what he says on these points. I think it'll help. Noroton (talk) 00:03, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Strongly oppose ALL the proposed changes. I will detail my specific objections later today.Newross (talk) 00:10, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

A few things. First it looks like we are making some real progress here, and it's good that everyone is for the most part keeping a very civil tone. Just a quick note to Newross, obviously feel free to detail your specific objections, but we are trying to come to consensus and in such a situation compromise is generally inevitable, so you may want to reconsider whether you really object to everything being proposed.

Wikidemo's suggestions above look pretty good to me, excepting perhaps some wording tweaks. I agree with Noroton that we are probably largely at consensus with the "Early life" section. I believe WorkerBee74 was the only one really proposing a mention of the few hours of legal work Obama apparently did for Rezmar, and as that editor has dropped that issue I don't think there's much more to talk about there. Wikidemo's formulation of the latter two sections would have us put all of the Rezko material in the campaign section. Personally I'm fine with that. Others (or at least WB74) were interested in spreading material in a couple of different sections, but I'm wondering how important that really is. If something more needs to be added to what Wikidemo has (which is possible), can it just be added to the campaign section? Along these lines I'd like to propose a few specific points/questions to move us forward:

1. I think we should try to quickly agree to Wikidemo's language (or some slight variation thereof) for the "early life" section, make any necessary changes, and then be done with that. I don't think we need to poll everyone on this, because again it was really only one editor who wanted to change this in the first place, and they are now leaving out the more controversial passage.
2. Can we agree that the Rezko material should be exclusively in the campaign section? Bear in mind that if necessary the material can probably be somewhat expanded from what Wikidemo has written.
3. If not, what specifically needs to be mentioned in the personal life section, and can it be kept extremely brief?

I'd like to hear particularly from WB74 (but also anyone else obviously) on these issues since Wikidemo reworked that editor's initial wording.

Also a general point that takes more of a long-term view. This campaign has only just begun in a sense, and we need to bear that in mind when thinking about the campaign section of the article. There may or may not be a lot about Rezko in the future, and it's almost certain that other, more important issues and controversies will crop up. For whatever reason, most of the discussion about including criticism of Obama has been about the most salacious details (Rezko, Ayers, and Wright). Right now we have six paragraphs just on the primaries, yet we do not discuss Obama's infamous "bitter" comment, or his apparent problem with white voters in many of the final nominating contests (partially contributing to his not-as-strong-as-he-would-have-liked finish). Ask voters if they know who Rezko is and most will say no. I'm sure many more would be aware of Obama's bitter comment or his perceived difficulties with white working-class voters (as an electoral issue this is arguably second only to the Wright affair, and of course they are related). Part of why I think we need to keep the Rezko stuff as succinct as possible in the campaign section is that: A) So far at least, it has not been as big of a deal as some have assumed it would be (I think it's a bigger deal in Illinois than nationally which is why Obama did a sit-down with the Sun Times); B) There is more we could be saying about the primary campaign, including some difficulties Obama faced in the home stretch which currently are not really discussed; C) The section will have to grow (and possibly be simultaneously trimmed) as the general election season moves forward. Again these are general thoughts to bear in mind, and while I want to handle the Rezko specifics first and get them out of the way I think it's worth it to consider these points as we do that.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 08:47, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for the late entry into this, I'm concerned that we're starting to give the controversies too much weight in the campaign section, particularly ones that haven't really had an impact on the campaign. Rezko has not really been a Presidential campaign issue for Obama and it's not likely that he'll become one. As soon as the Republicans/McCain campaign starts to make an issue of Rezko, the Democrats/Obama campaign will bring up Keating (who had a very similar relationship to McCain as Rezko had to Obama). He's been brought up a couple of times in debates, but other than that, there really hasn't been a lot of coverage about him outside of Chicago and a lot of that is because of the trial bringing up new dirt about Rezko's association with Blagojevich. I'm also not sure why there is a problem with scattering mention of Rezko throughout the article, because Rezko's involvement in Obama's life has been scattered throughout his career. If we're going to be concentrating Rezko into a single section, it is probably best placed in the Illinois Senate career section as that is where a majority of Rezko's involvement in Obama's life and career is concentrated. I'm of the opinion that we include Rezko's political contributions in the Illinois Senate career section and keep the house in the Personal life section. All in all... What's wrong with having Rezko interleaved with the existing text? --Bobblehead ^(rants) 16:19, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

So, we need to mention every figure who was even remotely involved with Obama during his state legislature career in the Illinois Senate section? Shem^(talk) 17:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

No, of course not. We don't do that sort of thing in the George W. Bush or [Hillary Clinton]] biographies either. The secondary sources have paid a lot of attention to Ayers, Rezko and Wright, and virtually ignored the rest. Here at Wikipedia, we generally go where the secondary sources lead us, unless there's a compelling reason not to do so.

I realize that I'm sounding like a broken record about it, but we really need to follow the well-established biography practice for prominent politicians running for high offices. There is no reason to treat the Barack Obama biography any differently than any of the similarly situated bios I've mentioned on this page. WorkerBee74 (talk) 18:28, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Shem, we don't need to include every single person Obama has been associated with in the Illinois Senate career section, just we also have to be careful that we don't cram every minor issue into the campaign section because that is where it came out. Rezko is an extremely minor "controversy" so far in the campaign section and trying to add an entire paragraph about Rezko into the campaign is giving that controversy undue weight for that section. However, in the entirety of Obama's biography, his association with Rezko does merit a mention, IMHO, just the current approach is going about it the wrong way. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 21:34, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Bigtimepeace. The 'bitter' and white working class issues should absolutely be discussed in the article and are of higher priority than Rezko or Ayers. Let's try to get this Rezko stuff behind us as quickly as we can. --Floorsheim (talk) 19:26, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Although the microscope on Rezko is campaign-related, it didn't hardly dent the campaign and is more relevant to Obama's political image than anything else. Thus I'd support Rezko be removed from his "personal life" section as it has far too much weight there and put it in the "cultural and political image" section. Same goes for any and all other "minor controversy" that might get thrown in. The neutrality tagging editors of that section would be happier for it too. Modocc (talk) 22:39, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Modocc, the Rezko business has two elements, one campaign-related and one ethics-related, as the coverage repeatedly shows. The Ethics-related end of it is independent of any particular campaign: the Rezko-Obama real estate business was broken by the Chicago Tribune in 2006. Obama's own response was to talk about how he tried to handle himself ethically and how he made mistakes in doing that (by engaging in the transactions with Rezko despite the fact that it was known Rezko was under investigation for his dealings with [other] politicians). Whether or not Obama was running for president, this real estate transaction would have been a part of this biography. As for the campaign, it has been repeatedly brought up (I can't count the times, but I can provide links to a large number of them) that in a presidential campaign where Obama has stressed his "judgment" and his ethics to the voters, this story raises questions about his judgment and involves ethically problematic behavior. These questions have been -- repeatedly -- directly addressed to Obama and he has not said they are unfair questions. His response instead is to call his behavior here "boneheaded" and a mistake. All of this is sourceable. I've just put 24 articles (some opinion, but mostly news) on the "favorites" list on my computer, printed them all out and gone over them (39 pages, copied and pasted into small 8 pt type), and I'm exhausted. Tomorrow I want to look over my notes and I hope to propose some language something like WorkerBee74s and Wikidemos. If there's a particular assertion that I've just made that you'd like some sources and quotes on, please just ask, and I'll post that a bit sooner. Noroton (talk) 01:33, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

What Obama himself has said about the land deal and about Rezko

There's been a lot said on this page in defense of Obama that has gone over and above Obama's more modest defense of himself. I went over a long transcript of an interview Obama gave to the editorial board of the Chicago Sun-Times, dated March 15, 2008. Here is my summary. In my user space, I have all the quotes to back up what's said in this summary, and you can find the quotes in the interview transcript as well (and if you don't trust my quotes, do a "find on this page" search of the Sun-Times interview). Keep in mind, this is a summary, and there are statements in the transcript that are more or less favorable to Obama but which I thought were not important enough to include in these six paragraphs. This may seem long, but I think it may save space in the long run. I'm posting this here not so that it can be put in the article, but so that people can get a better perspective of the issue. It's not the last word, but it seems a little unreasonable to be more Catholic than the Pope.

Source: Complete transcript of the Sun-Times interview with Barack Obama ; March 15, 2008 ; BY SUN-TIMES STAFF

Obama acknowledges that his relationship with Rezko is a legitimate matter of public scrutiny: "I appreciate the fact I have to be under greater scrutiny as somebody who could be president."

Barack Obama considered Tony Rezko a friend whom Obama met or spoke with sometimes as frequently as daily, but usually much less often. They've known each other for about 17 years. Their friendship included breakfast and lunch meetings, telephone conversations and sometimes frequent face-to-face meetings. Obama occasionally invited Rezko to dinner at his home and Obama and his wife once spent a day at Rezko's home in Lake Geneva (I assume this is Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, a resort town). Rezko was an important fundraiser for Obama over a long period of time, but especially at the beginning of Obama's political career. In his first state senate campaign, Obama received 10 to 15 percent of his $100,000 campaign warchest from Rezko's fundraising efforts, and in Obama's campaign for U.S. Congress, a fundraising event was held at Rezko's home. Obama estimated that Rezko's fundraising contributed $60,000 to $70,000 to the Senate campaign, out of a total of $14.5 million raised. Rezko was one of the original eight contributors to Obama's 2004 U.S. Senate campaign, when "It was a real stretch just to raise the first $250,000."

When the Obamas were househunting, Michelle found one on the market for $1.9 million that she really wanted but couldn't afford. Obama asked Rezko to look at the house, and Rezko visited it with him. Rezko expressed an interest in the lot that the owners were also selling, and when the Obamas eventually bought the house for $1.65 million, Rezko bought the adjacent lot from the same sellers for about $600,000. Obama assumed Rezko's purchase probably came about because, as a real-estate developer in the area, including the neighborhood where the house was, Rezko probably saw a good business deal in buying and developing the lot. Months later, Obama bought about 1/6 of the Rezko-owned lot, about 10 feet wide, for about 1/6 the price Rezko had paid for the lot. Obama and Rezko also made arrangements to have Rezko pay for placing a fence along the new property line and to have Obama pay for some landscape maintenance (grass cutting, probably) on the lot.

Obama says he did not know that Rezko was facing a potential criminal prosecution when the real estate transactions took place. He does say he made a mistake, which he called "boneheaded", in engaging in a business transaction with Rezko:

I think that a larger problem is me having bought the strip of land. At that point, it was clear that he was going to have some significant legal problems. But more to the point, even if he hadn't‚ he was a contributor and somebody who was doing business with the state. For me to enter into a business transaction with him was a bad idea. I've said repeatedly it was a boneheaded move, and a mistake that I regret.

A Chicago Sun-Times interviewer told Obama the real estate transactions took place "the same time reports were coming out that he was being investigated for alleged illegal influence-peddling", but in the same interview, Obama said, "It's simply not true that this was common knowledge. It may have been common knowledge among those who were familiar with development and developers in the community. It wasn't common knowledge and it wasn't reported on."

-- Noroton (talk) 04:03, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

--- I've made a few corrections in this, for accuracy. Also, the $1.9 million initial asking price was for the house lot, not the adjacent vacant lot as well, according to Obama. The sellers couldn't get the higher price and settled for $1.65 million. Noroton (talk) 05:53, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

All we have, to prove that Obama and Rezko did not engage in collusion on the house deal is Obama's word. Someone in that position will deny it whether he's guilty or innocent. The neutral press was asking a lot of questions about it. Because of those questions, WP has a duty to report it. What Modocc describes as "insinuation" is in fact sufficient context, as required by summary style, to explain why the press was asking those questions. It has clearly been neutralized by stating, instantly afterward, that Obama hasn't been implicated in any crimes. This is good middle ground for a compromise and it addresses all of the concerns expressed here. WorkerBee74 (talk) 18:06, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Um, have you ever heard the phrase "innocent until proven guilty?" We do not need to "prove" that there is no collusion by Obama and Rezko. It is automatically assumed to be not true until some proof surfaces otherwise. This is especially true in a WP:BLP. Sorry, a carefully parsed disclaimer that he hasn't been actually "implicated" does not mitigate the insinuation of guilt by association that comes from placing seemingly unconnected facts next to each other ("Obama associated with Rezko" + "Rezko has been found guilty of corruption" strongly implies "Obama is associated with corruption.") --Loonymonkey (talk) 18:34, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

WB74, the details around the purchase of the price has been confirmed by the seller of the house, their real estate agent, and Obama's real estate agent. The seller had two offers on the house and another two on the property. They took the highest of the offers on both. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 18:39, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Loonymonkey, Bobble and WB74, Wikipedia is not a court of law. We are not here to decide Obama's guilt or innocence in regard to the Rezko controversy. We are merely hear to describe the controversy and provide context for why it exists. To me, bringing up those two facts in succession is necessary to give that context. I think that is essentially what WB74 was arguing.

I think that Wikidemo's version may be about as close as we're going to get to a compromise on this. To me, it is really quite excellent. I'd like to encourage everyone to consider whether they would be able to find it acceptable or not.

--Floorsheim (talk) 19:16, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

There are many, many sources out there, left, right, center, editorials and commentators, straight-news reporters, political opponents, people who support Obama and Obama himself who all say, and this can be cited with weblinks if you want it, that the notable, reliable-source, NPOV issue about this whole thing is judgment. Obama made judgment a big part of his primary campaign. And he has been questioned by all of the types I mention two sentences back as to whether his interactions with Rezko showed poor judgment. And while he doesn't quite use that word in his answers to this question, which has been repeated umpteen times, his standard reply is that it was a "mistake" and "boneheaded" to do this. In late May 2005, the front page of the Chicago Tribune had a story about Rezko's deep ethical problems, and weeks later Obama closed on the house, with Rezko's wife closing on the next-door lot. Then more and more information came out about Rezko, and Obama bought a slice of that next-door lot. No insinuation need be made: This politician associated with that crook in this way. The pol's judgment was questioned, the pol said he made a boneheaded mistake. A controversy over a presidential candidate's judgment is not a WP:BLP violation, and if a presidential candidate does something stupid that might lead people to suspect he's actually done something shady, it's not our fault for presenting the fact that the stupid move has become controversial. If Obama started getting close to serial killers and it became a controversy, would Wikipedia be prevented from mentioning it because it might somehow imply that Obama was aiding and abetting their killing? It wasn't Wikipedia or the media or Obama's enemies that associated him with Rezko, it was Rezko and Obama who did that all on their own. Obama said on March 15 that he still considered Rezko a "friend". Last week that friend became a convicted felon. For a question of judgment, it does not matter that the crimes didn't involve Obama. There is no question that this has been a prominent issue in the campaign, which can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt given the widespread coverage. If anyone contests any single thing I said in this paragraph, I'll be happy to post links to prove it, although I haven't really gone through the commentators too much. Let's lay to rest this "guilt by association" canard now. Obama himself recognizes that the issue is legitimate. That's why he spent 90 difficult minutes being grilled by the Sun-Times on March 15 and then another 92 uncomfortable minutes being grilled by the Chicago Tribune on the same day. And he's spent time on it before and since, and it can't have been some of his more pleasurable moments during the campaign. And he didn't deny that he had some 'splainin' to do. Loonymonkey, read the summary I provided above. Ask me for proof of what I say in this paragraph, just ask me. I've been doing the research, and I've got the links. I'll be posting some suggestions later. Noroton (talk) 19:05, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

WB74: In mid-January 2005, the Obamas submitted a bid for $1.65 million for the house, up from a previous bid of $1.3 million but still below the original asking price of $1.9 million. The sellers sat on that for five more months, and in mid-June 2005 they accepted the offer made in January, selling the house for $1.65 million at the same time they sold the lot for about $600,000 (the sellers had said they wanted to sell both properties at the same time). Obama himself has said Rezko may have wanted to do Obama a favor, but it would be entirely consistent with doing Obama a minor favor for Rezko to want to buy the lot for business reasons, something he had done before in that neighborhood. By simply associating with this future felon at the time he was committing his felonies, Obama has raised eyebrows and that's dead-to-rights provable from a gazillion sources. We don't need to imply anything or speculate on anything. No hints involved. We just give the outline roughly in the way you and Wikidemo have proposed. Noroton (talk) 19:14, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Norton, calling the critique of poorly constructed prose that introduces bias a canard is incorrect and distracting, as it evades what is relevant to a NPOV presentation. I agree that Wikidemo's version is an improvement over WB74's. However, a consensus version may need to be even more sophisticated, for best practice is to encapsulate POV by carefully describing and attributing the "whatever is questioned" to specific "media or persons". There is also discussion about the best placement(s) and details and such. For a political career transgression, it seems currently misplaced in his personal life section. IMO Wikidemo's suggested version gives far too much space and it needs considerable pruning. I expect to see more proposals and additional objections; and other editors to weigh in too. Modocc (talk) 21:18, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Just to get some perspective on this, and because several folks have mentioned comparisons to other articles, note that the George W. Bush article makes no mention whatsoever of Ken Lay. Lay was closer and more important as a donor to Bush (and his father) than was Rezko to Obama, and his crimes were far more damaging (they impacted the entire American economy) and far more widely covered than Rezko's. Yet we don't even mention Lay in the Bush article. Now this is not to say we should not discuss Rezko here because I think we should, but let's get some perspective on this. Noroton has supplied a number of useful links to stories on Rezko and Obama which is good, but this is the most heavily covered election in the history of Earth, and as a medium-sized campaign issue it has of course received massive coverage. The coverage of the Lay-Bush connection far outstripped Rezko-Obama however, so in thinking about how much Rezko stuff we keep in here let's bear in mind that we don't even talk about Lay in Bush's article (perhaps he should be mentioned there, I don't know). --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 05:16, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Every President has a number of serious white collar criminals in his circle. In addition to Lay (who cost tens of thousands of Americans their life savings) we have Jack Abramoff, David H. Safavian, Scooter Libby, etc. What politician does not have colleagues convicted of crimes? I think Norton provides an interesting, and balanced, description of the incident that is well supported by sources, and puts it into perspective. Except that it is indeed a minor issue in proportion to the overall notability of the candidate. Direct arguments that this sheds light on his character, or that it does not, are not pertinent. We base articles on coverage in reliable secondary sources, not our own analysis of how our beliefs about ethics shed light on the facts of the matter. Those sources tell us that it is not worth a whole lot of copy. Wikidemo (talk) 05:41, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

One section only

I'd just like to reiterate one critical position many of us stated prior, that this article is about Barack Obama, not Antoin Rezko. No one's arguing that Rezko shouldn't be mentioned, but material on Rezko can be covered with due weight on one section of the article; trying to shoehorn Rezko throughout the entire article is unacceptable. Shem^(talk) 04:42, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Jimbo Wales said that criticism shouldn't be concentrated in a "criticism and controversy" section; instead, it should be spread evenly throughout the article. I believe that doing without the Rezmar sentence in the early life section is sufficient to address your concern stated here, in light of what Jimbo said. WorkerBee74 (talk) 15:12, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

You're not trying to "spread it evenly throughout the article," you're trying to shoehorn Rezko's name into as many sections as you can manage. Loonymonkey's done an excellent job of taking you to task above, so there's no need to have the same discussion in two talk page sections. I'm just reiterating what many of us have stated very clearly in the past: one section only, and I'll strongly oppose any attempts at compromising this article's neutrality with undue coverage of an election controversy. Shem^(talk) 16:46, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Problem is, this is at most a minor campaign issue. It is getting a lot of coverage in the Chicago press, but that isn't because Obama is running for president right now, it's because it is a developing story and until someone noticed that Rezko bought land next to Obama on the same day in October 2006, they were focused on Rezko's connection to Blagojevich. The start of Obama's campaign and the Obama-Rezko story is coincidental in that regard. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 17:14, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

That's why it's covered with due weight in the "Personal life" section about the Obamas' home purchase. I've never advocated placing it in the campaign section. Shem^(talk) 17:21, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I tell ya.. too many side conversations going on here. Above they are talking about adding a paragraph into the Presidential campaign section. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 18:53, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Ayers

Back when Senator Barack Obama was playing marbles in knee pants, his present casual friend, Dr. Bill Ayers, who's now an academic, had been involved in some rather extraordinarily reprehensible activities. Yet the context of these neighbors having met is shrouded in mystery since Obama and Ayers, perhaps smartly, decline to respond to inquiries about it. In any case, this has been met with a mostly reluctant coverage akin maybe a sniff by the mainstream media, mostly immediately after the famous exchange between Obama and Mr. George Stephanopoulis in the City of Brotherly Love in April, when Obama said Ayers "is a guy who lives in my neighborhood, who's a professor of English in Chicago who I know and who I have not received some official endorsement from. He's not somebody who I exchange ideas from on a regular basis" [etc.]

After which Senator John McCain piccoloed in a riff into the campaign's musical score about Obama's ongoing friendship with Ayers "...while the guy was unrepentant over his activities as a member of a terrorist organization, the Weathermen. Does he condemn them? Would he condemn someone who says they're unrepentant and wished that they had bombed more?" To which the counterpoint was played by Mr. Bill Burton, along the theme that..."Unable to sell his out-of-touch ideas on the economy and Iraq, John McCain has stooped to the same smear politics and low road that he denounced in 2000" [etc.] The question is, which theme should Wikipedia's coverage/lack thereof echo? The Obama campaign's (about "smear tactics," etc.) via no mention of Ayers? The McCain campaign's (through detailing what facts are known about the apparently casual friendship between neighbors), letting readers make of it what they will? Or the mainstream media's allegorical, collective sniff (that is, perhaps through Wikipedia's making barest mention of Ayers name with a link)? — Justmeherenow (   ) 03:08, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

My view is that we should really try to take one thorny issue at a time so discussion does not get completely out of hand. Several people are currently trying to work on the Rezko situation above. Can we hold off on this for a little bit?--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 03:35, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Agree. I don't think we're going to make progress on that one at this time. It seems to me that if the Bill Ayers and Bill Ayers election controversy articles had their many gaps filled, there will be a point where we can revisit the issue with more light, which might result in less heat. Let's keep that one on the back burner and stir this Rezko pot and the Wright pot on the front burners first. Noroton (talk) 04:04, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

It appears that we might almost have the Rezko content questions resolved. Why don't we address Ayers when we get Rezko finished? WorkerBee74 (talk) 17:32, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

We just finished a lengthy discussion on Bill Ayers (which occupies its own Archive page, #23), which revealed a very clear lack of consensus on including Ayers. Am I to understand that some of y'all are attempting to throw that entire discussion out the window only one week after its conclusion? Shem^(talk) 04:44, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Although a vocal faction remained against inclusion I still didn't view the result of that discussion as conclusive. Perhaps others disagree. — Justmeherenow (   ) 18:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Please, as I said, let's hold off on this. The Rezko situation is not resolved. I have a possible suggestion for mentioning Ayers which might be more agreeable to some of those who opposed the initial inclusion (though I don't know the exact nature of that). Regardless of how it all plays out, we need to set this to the side for now. The Rezko issue is clearly ongoing, so let's try to put that to bed first.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 07:01, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Obama's Height?

How tall is Obama? Is his height noted somewhere in the article (if it isn't it should be since that is a valid personal fact), and is the information verified/sourced? --172.162.95.66 (talk) 06:31, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

He holds people’s gazes as he speaks, and he has an unerring physical sense, knowing just how long to clasp a shoulder, linger on a hug, double-grip a hand. While Obama exudes great warmth, he doesn’t arouse the suspicion he has overrelied on sex appeal in his career, though he’s got it (six foot two, good-looking, smile like a white picket fence). People are just as apt to express their admiration around him as they are to flutter.----NEW YORK MAGAZINE (Sep. 25, 2006) [Michelle is five-foot eleven.] — Justmeherenow (   ) 06:49, 16 June 2008 (UTC)And Sports Illustrated's S.L. Price specifies Barack as 6-foot-1+1/2 (and fifteen pounds different from Price's own, unstated weight). — Justmeherenow (   ) 17:12, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Balance regarding Trinity U.C.ofC.

IMHO black liberation theology's somewhat unfairly maligned, its efforts to engender racial pride caricatured by those appealing to an identity politics subtly appealing to the white majority. Instead of just "God damn America!" how about the context that (according to yesterday's Washington Post)... "At the very core of its mission, Trinity seeks to reveal and broadcast racial inequalities. A product of black liberation theology, it teaches members to identify with their African roots and take pride in the African American experience. Sermons sometimes mingle biblical lessons with those learned from slavery or the civil rights movement." — Justmeherenow (   ) 06:37, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I do think it would be useful to bring in some additional context to help clarify where the remark was coming from. Unsure if this quote is how to go about it. Also unsure if that is necessarily what Justmeherenow is suggesting --Floorsheim (talk) 21:53, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I'd support contextualization. (..And no, not beholden to any quote..) — Justmeherenow (   ) 03:28, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Religious chronology @ infobox

Since John McCain's change from Episcopalian to Baptist is given in the infobox at "John McCain," I figured I'd fill out the religious information at "Barack Obama" to spell out that while Obama's been with the United Church of Christ since 1992, previously he'd retained what he termed in his 2006 "Call to Renewal" speech a "skepticism of organized religion," while acknowledging his maternal grandparents as "non-practicing Methodists and Baptists." — Justmeherenow (   ) 12:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with that, and don't believe I've ever seen anything like that in an infobox. This is precisely the kind of change you should discuss rather than just make, as it is significant and likely controversial. First of all I see no reason why we would refer to his grandparents' religion - the infobox is not about what church his grandparents did or did not go to (and why only mention his maternal grandparents?). Secondly, I don't believe we generally include earlier religious skepticism under the "religion" category of the infobox. George W. Bush became a born-again Christian in his early forties and continues to identify as such, but we don't explain in his infobox that he had a religious conversion (he switched from Episcopalian to United Methodist, which we explain in the article, not the infobox, though in that case we could probably mention that in the infobox). Thomas Jefferson was raised in the Church of England but we don't say that in the infobox, nor do we say that he was anti-Catholic nor that he did not believe in the divinity of Jesus (again we discuss these things in the article). When Richard Nixon was young he believed in the inerrancy of the Bible but abandoned that later, and despite nominally being a Quaker he was pretty far from a pacifist, but in his infobox we simply say "Quaker" (one could argue whether that was even really true by the time he was president). McCain completely switched denominations which is worth mentioning, but in general that infobox should really just identify someone's current religion, not say "in his 20s he struggled to find his spiritual identity" which is basically the case with Obama and half the rest of the world. Where that can be discussed is in the article itself. It's already largely there, but I think we can slightly expand the last paragraph of the "personal life" section. I'm strongly tempted to revert your change but will hold off pending further discussion and actually hope you might self-revert. Again, in the future please discuss these kind of changes before making them. You're adding new material and if you have any sense it may be even minimally controversial you should bring it to the talk page first.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 15:05, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Self-reverted, pending consensus----as it's conceivable some portion of it might be controversial. — Justmeherenow (   ) 15:36, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, we'll see what others think, but if you want folks to come around to your view you might want to find examples where we list "skepticism of organized religion" or something similar in an infobox to note that someone was not in a church their whole life. If there are few or no examples of that it would suggest we should not start doing it here. The other problem I didn't mention is the way it appears on the screen with "skepticism of organized religion" being the first thing someone would read. Because of the formatting it's not immediately clear you are talking about a former belief, so someone who casually peruses the infobox (which is probably exactly what most people do) might only notice the first line about skepticism. It doesn't make much sense to display his past belief (or lack thereof) more prominently than his religion of the past 16 years.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 15:43, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Ah-hah----yes! true. — Justmeherenow (   ) 16:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

The infobox is fine as is. Shem^(talk) 04:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

ulta pov

This page is super duper POV in favor of Obama in almost every aspectHeatsketch (talk) 17:37, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you have lost sight of an important point. This is supposed to be a biography of a notable individual - his whole life, career, family, accomplishments, points of view, etc. It is not an article about a political candidate or a campaign - you'll find that elsewhere in the encyclopedia, such as in Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008 and Political positions of Barack Obama. So the idea of this being "in favor of" him doesn't really make sense in that context. There should be, and are, neutral descriptions of controversial matters that he has been involved in, if they are truly notable in the context of his whole life, not just a political flash-point. Will any given item be seen as significant in his life if we look back 10 years from now? 10 months? in some cases, 10 minutes? That should be standard by which we judge this biography and all others. Unfortunately, you are not alone - many others have similarly forgotten this fundamental point, as evidenced by much of the activity here. Tvoz/talk 18:47, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I think you're looking for this page: http://www.conservapedia.com/Barack_Obama —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.114.123.4 (talk) 19:11, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

relationship to Dick Cheney

If was international news that Barack Obama and Dick Cheney are 8th cousins and that was what I was curious about, and then looked at the Wikipedia article and no mention of it. So I looked it up and found some accredited sources and added that info to this article since it wasn't in it, it was international news and betting I was wasn't the only person who was curious about it. Not trying to name every ancestor of Obama's, but this particular case as I read about it in a newspaper in Qatar. Cladeal832 (talk) 21:48, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Non-notable trivia. We can't include every little bit of trivia about Barack Obama into this article. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 21:51, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

That's just an opinion. This was a lead story in national and international news and nearly every president article mentions relations to previous presidents. Barack Obama, in more significantly then most, was made an issue, both himself and his supports and opponents, of his ancestry and background. It has been mentioned by Barack Obama in speechs he has given about "his cousin" and also by Cheney as "Cousin Barack". If I heard that, I'd like to know what they were talking about and hopefully wikipedia would be the source. I was curious to know about and not one mention. Maybe all that info was a bit much. But the article mentioned that he was mostly British colonial descent on the maternal side and here was so an ancestor that was French. What's wrong with this one sentence

Obama is an eighth cousin, once removed, of Vice-President Dick Cheney and a ninth cousin of President Harry S Truman through their common ancestor Mareen Duvall, a French Huguenot who immigrated to Maryland in the 1650s.

That is the info I am more interested in, but another Obama most recent European ancestor is his great-great-great grandfather, Falmouth Kearney, an Irish farmer, who immigrated from County Offaly, Ireland during the Great Irish Famine and resettled in Tipton County, Indiana.

Cladeal832 (talk) 00:30, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I guess that would be an opinion to say that it's non-notable trivia. I haven't read the articles on other high-profile political people, but if it's common to mention these types of relationships, then I don't see why a brief sentence can't be made about it if it has a couple sources. I know that many times when I've read about presidents in the past that they often mention these types of reltionships; however, Obama is not a president at this time. Again, If it's common to do this and well sourced, then I don't see a problem with it; just needs to be a brief sentence and not a genealogy report if it's included. Kman543210 (talk) 01:19, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

It's my opinion as well. Enough opinions and you have consensus. In fact, if you want to add disputed material it's up to you to establish a consensus for inclusion. You're not going to get that on this piece of information because it says very little about the person. The article is very long as it is, and if we add so many little details it will get way longer. The amount of coverage this has gotten is tiny compared to the overall coverage of Obama, which bears out the observation that the point is unimportant. Also, you should not edit war on an important article like this one. The result was full page protection, which is disruptive. It could just have easily been a warning and an account block. So please be careful. Can we get everyone to promise that if and when article page protection is lifted you will discuss the matter here and not edit war by reverting changes on the article page? Thanks, Wikidemo (talk) 01:33, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Bobblehead, Kman543210, and Wikidemo. Non-notable trivia. Shem^(talk) 04:47, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Non-notable trivia that we can't afford to allocate space to. The separate campaign sub-article could perhaps mention that he makes the Cheney joke in his stump speeches, but not here, and certainly not this long list of distant ancestors.Tvoz/talk 05:35, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Maiden Names

In the article itself, his mother is refer to Ann Dunham, not Ann Obama (her name at the time of his birth) or Ann Soetoro, her name at the time of death. It's just standard pratice to use a women's maiden name in an educational and information biographical article, so what is wrong with Michelle Robinson? Using Michelle Robinson Obama is misleading as she never goes by that name and Michelle Obama née Robinson seems just too long. Cladeal832 (talk) 00:05, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't exactly understand what you are driving at, but I think we call her Michelle Obama because she calls herself Michelle Obama and that's what everyone knows here as. We don't usually use a woman's maiden name unless that is the name by which she is commonly known. That is not the case for Michelle Obama. Ann Dunham and her second husband divorced long ago and she was apparently generally known by her maiden name.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 06:57, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

As biographical article so women, especially mothers and wives, are intially refered to by their maiden names. But not in this one?Cladeal832 (talk) 14:31, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

On Michelle Obama we initially refer to her by her full name (including maiden name) and that is standard, but we're talking about the infobox in this article. Compare with the infobox in George W. Bush where we say "Laura Bush" not "Laura Lane Welch Bush."--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 16:26, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Infobox should really use her current name to eliminate confusion.. She's included in this article as "Michelle Robinson" in the personal life section because that was her name at the time in the context of the sentence she appears in (when they met). --Bobblehead ^(rants) 16:46, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Note that the article page is now fully protected, unlimited duration, due to this ongoing edit war

Any modification to a fully this page should be discussed here. Once consensus has been established for the change, any administrator may make the necessary edits to the article page. Placing the {{editprotected}} template on the talk page can draw attention to discussions about edits to protected pages.

I asked for this because I just don't see any consensus building here, rather the opposite with factions each claiming consensus, and that isn't how it works.

Sorry.

This is for the best. --BenBurch (talk) 00:44, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the page protection is premature and indefinite protection is way too long. It seems to be one person wanting to add material, and two reverting, and not a whole lot of harm either way (it's over the addition of a small passage containing ancestry trivia) That's an awfully low threshold for such an important article. Better to implement the proposal to enforce 1RR on everyone, and let the article continue to evolve. I note there have been plenty of helpful if minor improvements for the past few days and that all parties to the more serious edit war of last week are discussing things constructively here on the talk page. A day of protection would be more than enough. How about just warning any participants in this little edit war that they'll be blocked if they continue? Thanks, Wikidemo (talk) 01:30, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree that full protection, particularly of an indefinite nature, is not necessary. This was a low level edit war about one issue while discussion is happening about more pressing issues above. I'll contact the protecting admin about this and see if they will unprotect. I'm also going to look into the specifics of the edit warring and warn as appropriate. Finally, I think it's time for a 1RR for the page and possibly article probation as well. I'll look into all of this now but it might be a little while before anything gets done.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 06:29, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

That is certainly not what I meant. Protection for such a high profile article, and at such a current event, should never be protected indefinitely. It was a cool off protection, designed to last 24 hours at most. As I mentioned to someone earlier, it would be like fully-protecting Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom after announcing her divorce and abdication. The events change momentarily, so full protection would flood CAT:PER and, if that's not being monitored, WP:AN. Not specifying an expiry does not indicate indefinite protection; it indicates that it is to be protected for as long as it needs to be. Granted, I should have been clearer in my summaries, but I was in a rush; I didn't have time to explain fully. However, I think my words have been turned into something they weren't -- that is my fault -- so I just want to make them clear now. Thanks, PeterSymonds (talk) 10:54, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Peter for unprotecting, and I certainly didn't think you envisioned protecting this for a couple of weeks or anything, but I was unsure how long you had in mind. No worries.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 16:18, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Wiki help needed

Last night I wrote an article on Lolo Soetoro Obama's one time stepfather. Apparently this has been deleted in the past. This man was an important part of Obama's childhood. He is also part of a mis-information campaign about Obama claiming that Obama is a muslim extremist. His inclusion on Wikipedia is very important. Please help by adding your comments to Lolo Soetoro's talk page and contacting appropriate administrators. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Utahredrock (talk • contribs)

I've declined the speedy. The previous AfD was before Obama became the likely President, and therefore this is not an open and shut case. AfD should be observed here; times have changed, and the family members of Obama are more high-profile now than they ever were. PeterSymonds (talk) 18:13, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I was unaware that there were different standards in the AfD process for people related to candidates and those related to presumptive nominees. It would seem that the same arguments are applicable. Other than a brief mention of his connection to Obama, there is nothing notable about him (and notability is not inherited). The notable aspects of his life are already addressed in this article. --Loonymonkey (talk) 18:20, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, this never went to AfD in the first place. G4 does not cover speedies; only deletion discussions. It fails G4 and A7, because it asserts notability, and therefore should go to AfD anyway. PeterSymonds (talk) 19:46, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Peter is exactly right, if there are concerns about notability, take it to AfD.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 20:22, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

The article in question has incorrect and missing facts - all of which are amply covered here and inn Ann Dunham, and appears to be a coatrack for getting "Obama" and "Muslim" in the same place. Tvoz/talk 23:28, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Barack senior begat Barack junior...but only saw him once after Barry was a toddler, two years old: yes, a WP bio for BHO I; yet, from age five on, Barack junior's raised by Lolo (alongside Barack's mother Ann): no article, no dice; adding insult to injury, from age 10 on, Barry is raised by Madelyn and Stanley: deserving of treatment via a joint WP bio. Yet another case of shorsightedness here?

Two Muslim women at Barack Obama’s rally in Detroit on Monday were barred from sitting behind the podium by campaign volunteers seeking to prevent the women’s headscarves from appearing in photographs or on television with the candidate. ¶ The campaign has apologized to the women, both Obama supporters who said they felt betrayed by their treatment at the rally. ¶ “This is of course not the policy of the campaign. It is offensive and counter to Obama’s commitment to bring Americans together and simply not the kind of campaign we run,” said Obama spokesman Bill Burton. “We sincerely apologize for the behavior of these volunteers.”----POLITICO'S BEN SMITH

 — Justmeherenow (   ) 21:58, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Rezko problems

I am returning from my self-imposed exile to make a point about why the Rezko stuff is proving so difficult to include. Various attempts have been made to add the Rezko-related information, and they have all failed. The problem has been identified by Wikidemo, actually, although his proposed solution hasn't been any more successful than previous attempts. The facts are these:

1. Tony Rezko played a fairly significant role in the earlier part of Obama's career, chiefly as a fundraiser - nothing wrong with that.
2. Obama bought a house, and Rezko bought a vacant lot next door because the sellers wanted to sell both at the same time - nothing wrong with that.
3. Rezko sold a strip of land to Obama, which helped to improve the Obama property - nothing wrong with that, although Obama himself indicated that Rezko was "doing him a favor".
4. During the course of Rezko's fundraising activities he engaged in illegal activities, for which he was indicted and later convicted - big alarm bells ringing, extensive coverage at Tony Rezko.
5. Worried about how this might look, Obama gave a couple of interviews explaining his actions, and donated the estimated sum of Rezko-sourced funds to charity - nothing wrong with that.

Taken individually, there is nothing improper (or even notable) about any of Obama's actions. It is only when these disparate facts are combined that some form of "controversy" unfolds. The "controversy" relies on the details surrounding Rezko's indictment, none of which involved Obama. By cramming all of these details into a single section, we are essentially talking about manufacturing a controversy. This has been described by some editors as "context", but really it is just conflation. It would be one thing if this "controversy" received masses of media attention, but it has barely received a mention.

But if we separate the details and "weave" them into the article, as suggested by WorkerBee74, the details fade into insignificance because none of them are really notable. The difficulty of fitting this stuff in is because it really isn't appropriate. The "negative" stuff revolves around Tony Rezko, with Obama only catching a whiff of it. It is for this reason that I think the details (or "context") should not be in this BLP. We should refer to the association as having drawn scrutiny during the primary season, but we should provide a hyperlink to Tony Rezko where the actual details can be found. This should appear in the campaign section, preferably as a single, concise sentence. And that is all there should be for the time being. Obviously it is possible that this will becoming a bigger issue during the general election campaign, but we should reevaluate if and when that happens.

So what we need is for the various interested parties to get together and try to come up with a sentence for the campaign section that can do this without violating WP:NPOV. I've been thinking about it, but I'm struggling to come up with something succinct. Does anyone have any ideas? -- Scjessey (talk) 22:38, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

The above editor's repeated statements to the effect of "nothing wrong with that" make clear that his editing conduct is fair game to raise as an issue hre. The term "nothing wrong with that" is not a fact-based statement, nor is it neutral. It is clearly conclusionary and it's also clearly POV. "Wrong" or "right" are inherently POV viewpoints. By stating "nothing wrong with that" Scjessey is clearly making 'conclusions' and sitting as judge. We are not judges and we do not render opinions. Whther or not Scjessey thinks there's "nothing wrong" wiht something is irrelevant to whther or not it should be mentioned in this article. I challenge Scjessey to show me where in wiki editing guidelines it's written that we are free to exclude mention of things, notable or not, if we feel there's "nothing wrong with that". I feel that Scjessey is trying to insert his moral opinions as a screen and use them to filter content from the article based on that screening. I believe that this is a user conduct issue and I feel that I am within bounds to draw attention to that. 216.153.214.89 (talk) 05:14, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

In the article, we currently have two long sentences: "...The land adjacent to their house was simultaneously sold to the wife of developer Tony Rezko, a fundraiser for several prominent Illinois politicians from both major political parties[156], and the transaction later drew scrutiny from news outlets over Obama's dealings with Rezko. While Obama was never accused of wrongdoing, Rezko was under investigation for and later convicted of unrelated corruption charges, and Obama donated $150,000 in Rezko-linked campaign contributions to charity.[157]". Thus, I don't think we can manage with fewer words than this, and Lots of details we could get rid of, but just about anything is too much weight in the campaign section. Its also not all that relevant to his personal life section, but Rezko is somewhat relevant to tarnishing his political image as viewed by some. So we could breakup the last paragraph in the cultural and political image section and include whatever is needed there. Modocc (talk) 23:53, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

After rereading your comment, I agree that we could lose many of the details. Perhaps editors that have wanted to add something to the cultural and political image section can come up with what is needed. Modocc (talk) 00:47, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

The sources

Scjessey and Modocc, you are not reflecting the broad consensus out there on this issue, so please do some reading. I went to the Tony Rezko article and found some of these sources, and I did a simple Google and Google News search and found some of the others, so I think this is a pretty good representative sample of 23 sources. This gives you an idea of the shape of the coverage. Note the importance of the point that the Rezko relationship raises questions about Obama's judgment:

• http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/353829,CST-NWS-rez23.article#
• http://talkingpointsmemo.com/rezkotimeline.php
• http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/03/obama_spends_3_hours_with_chic.php
• http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/14/us/politics/14rezko.html?_r=2&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1213719873-DTNCapgN21KSAc1N8oRPUQ&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin
• http://www.suntimes.com/news/124171,CST-NWS-obama05.article#
• http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/121104,CST-NWS-brown02.article
• http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/02/01/rezko/print.html
• http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0316edit1mar16,0,4441703,print.story
• http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=4111483
• http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/politics/blog/2008/01/by_frank_james_in_monday.html
• http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jan/23/nation/na-rezko23
• http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/8855.html
• http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obama/766605,CST-NWS-obama30.article#
• http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=289698788263978 -- this one seems to be a bit inaccurate
• http://www.examiner.com/x-268-Right-Side-Politics-Examiner~y2008m6d6-Rezko-And-Obamas-Judgement
• http://www.motherjones.com/mojoblog/archives/2008/03/7518_obama_and_rezko.html
• http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/04/obamarezko.html
• http://www.minnpost.com/politicalagenda/2008/06/05/2136/rncs_duncan_slams_obamas_ties_to_rezko
• http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-obama-rezko-letterjun12,0,5678036,print.story
• http://news.bostonherald.com/news/national/politics/2008/view.bg?articleid=1100458&format=text
• http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/353797,CST-NWS-rezdavis23.article#
• http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/obama/
• http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=ZTQyNjk1MmZhNDYyZjQ0OGNlMDIzOGMzZDQwMjk3NTY=

I know, this is just a dump of links, but I'll be referring to these later and there's a lot here, so you may want to look them over. This doesn't mean I want to use a lot of information, but note that while they're just about all reliable sources, they're all over the map in terms of type of source: they're both commentary (including Mother Jones and National Review) and straight news reporting, and yet they are remarkably in agreement: Obama did a stupid thing, he continued associating with a guy, and got into a real estate deal with him, after it became obvious the guy was under investigation, and this raises questions about Obama's judgment. Some (not all) say it raises questions about his ethics. Even two media supporters say this raises questions about his judgment (Chicago Trib editorial and David Corn in Mother Jones). I'll make a proposal later and give some quotes from these sources and provide specific links at that time, but feel free to look over just about my whole database, even just to pick through it at random, and come up with your own conclusions. Some supporters say this whole thing is not important, but that's not the consensus view that I found. Noroton (talk) 02:12, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree that Obama's association/involvement with Rezko matters. Here's an example to illustrate how I see it: If you have a college roommate when you are 20 years old and 10 years later, he turns out to be an embezzler, that's not on you. But, if you are running for the office of City Auditor (a position requiring probity) and it becomes public knowledge that you were associated with your ex-rommate and did deals with him, even AFTER there was public news of his being in problems, then it becomes clear that this is a controversy that involves YOUR reputation also. The presidency is a role that requires great probity. Anyone who aspires to it, is naturally held to a standard of very strict scrutiny. To deny that the Rezko/Obama link is notable, is foolhardy and turns a blind eye to the fact that this obviously does matter. All notable public leaders seeking high elective office are ALWAYS called on the carpet for "controversial associations". The Obama/Rezko association is controverial and therefore notable in regards to Obama. The association AND the controversy (in brief) must be mentioned in THIS article or this article is a farce. 216.153.214.89 (talk) 04:52, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Noroton, I'm not sure what broad consensus there is that I, for one, am not reflecting, but there is considerable rhetoric that I tend to ignore. I've been reading as requested, and so far its pretty much repetitive stuff. I was struck though by how many of the sources questioned the affairs' importance, asking if the trial or Rezko himself will reveal anything, and asking if it is Obama's Achilles heal. The "appearance of impropriety", the scrutiny and the scattered coverage are not a manufactured political stunt. Yet it is still a minor affair and we can prevent redundancy, further instability and too much weight by selecting just the most relevant article section, and I still think the political image section is best. Content there is more likely to stay put and we won't have to rehash the issue of "either too few or too many details" (which I assume are important to some extent) or argue about its relative importance to other events when the campaign section needs significant revision again. Modocc (talk) 05:28, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

All four of you are missing a crucial point, which is that it is not our job as Wikipedians to come up with the "correct" POV and decide whether Obama is in the right or in the wrong concerning Rezko or anything else. Our job is simply to report relevant and notable POVs that exist concerning Obama. Can we please focus on that and leave the political discussions aside? No one is manufacturing a controversy. The controversy exists. It's a fact. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks about whether it should or should not exist. Our job is to report it because it is there. Part of that is making it clear what the controversy is about by displaying the pertinent details (which are also facts). --Floorsheim (talk) 15:34, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

More specifically, Wikipedia should report notable and relevant POV. The issue here is that the "controversy" only exists when a group of disparate facts concerning Rezko and Obama are conflated. Even if we assume for a second that this approach is legitimate, it seems to be a very Illinois-specific issue. It has received very little media attention outside of Chicago, with almost all national sources simply regurgitating the Tribune/SunTimes stuff. Reporting both "sides" is only important if what you are reporting is notable, otherwise you are just giving something non-notable undue weight. The order of precedence here is WP:BLP, WP:WEIGHT and then WP:NPOV. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:49, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Whether or not the national sources are 'regurgitating' is irrelevant. The plain fact is that the issue has received significant media attention on the state of Illinois and national levels, including the front page of cnn.com. We are obliged to discuss it in the article. Commentary about why it has received this attention could be appropriate for the article as well, provided there were enough secondary sources making the commentary. --Floorsheim (talk) 19:45, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

He's a senator from Illinois; the subject of the article is Illinois-specific. The sources are both Illinois-specific and national. It has received enormous national coverage, with probably every daily newspaper in the country running at least an AP article on the trial results. I agree with Floorsheim that we're not here to argue the politics, but I did want to demonstrate that it's an important aspect of Obama's life, a matter that's been public not just because he's in a campaign, but because ethical issues have been raised. I won't beat a dead horse. Noroton (talk) 21:03, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

"It has received enormous national coverage"

I'm sorry, but that simply isn't true. I've seen hardly any coverage at all, and I watch political programming for pleasure. By way of comparison, I've seen considerably more coverage of McCain's Shia/Sunni mistake, and orders of magnitude more for his "100 years" in Iraq. Even the "bittergate" nonsense has received more coverage than Rezko, even though it was just a misstatement. This is simply a gross overstatement of importance, and I think the text I have proposed below is more than adequate coverage. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:41, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Uh, as I stated previously, if we leave out the Rezko material (see my comments above), this article is a farce. Methinks Scjessey is too involved here and (perhaps) is putting his thumb on the scale in favor of minimizing the import of this issue. This issue raises bona-fide questions about Obama's probity. It's simply absurd that leaving it out is even being considered. It's shocking that SCJ is defending his views so feverently (with almost religious zeal?). I think we need to invoke a formal procedure such as asking the wider community to discuss this and also, I think that SJC might want to recuse himself from this page and "cool off" for a while. I believe at this point, Scjessey perhaps has ownership issues. 216.153.214.89 (talk) 04:44, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Another sockpuppetry digression

I'd encourage other editors to ignore this IP sock's goading. It's only made two edits to this Talk discussion, but is clearly familiar with the page's participants. Don't feed the troll. Shem^(talk) 05:10, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Shem, I think you are leaping to conclusions and are doing precisely what you said I was doing, that being "attacking" and "goading". I have carefully read and responded to each of your comments. Please see my comments regarding SCJessey's "nothing wrong with that" moral conclusions. There is an issue with SJC's approach here and I feel that it's within bounds to draw attention to it. No less so than you attempting (nay, lobbying) to draw attention to (or actually away from) my edits. Neither SCJ nor you "own" this page and I am also able to edit here. Furthermore, I am making a full effort to hear and and dialog witth you - but you are not. You made one overture - a threatening one, then you quickly lambasted me again and posted a note on this page actively lobbying against me all within a few minutes. No reasonable person can think through and respond fast enough to keep up with your leaping at me. Frankly, you should strike your provocative plea to "ignore" my edits and reconsider your approach. Perhaps the tension on this page stems from the approach of several "camping" editors here - rather than the prespective of the few new ones who dare to try to stick a toe in the water. That said, as you can see, I have stricken my text which you say offends. I ask that you do likewise to yours [5] 216.153.214.89 (talk) 05:26, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Since you are just an IP editor (although it is obvious from your editing history that you are an experienced one), you should be aware that my comments above were the first I had made in days following a self-imposed break, sp I completely reject your baseless accusations of bias. My "nothing wrong with that" statements were carefully-considered conclusions based on the facts. Using these conclusions, I port forward a very reasonable proposal for Rezko language which has attracted some support. I'm sorry if it doesn't fit in with your personal point-of-view. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:27, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

There really needs to be a cease-fire on this page on all of these sockpuppetry accusations. A couple of editors who are clearly in the minority, and fighting a losing battle against consensus, have reached the conclusion that the only way they can win the edit war is to delegitimize their opponents. Any new editor who disagrees with them is, by definition, a sockpuppet. If this handful of editors can get enough people who disagree with them blocked or topic banned, they will be in the majority. So they make these false accusations. Take your accusations to WP:SSP and WP:RFCU, present your evidence and see if you can get an admin to block the alleged puppets.

Furthermore, only one account here has been proven via RFCU to be a sockpuppet and blocked. It was an account that was taking the side of the same editors who are hurling these accusations. So if anyone should be talking about the sockpuppetry of others and making accusations, perhaps it should be Noroton, Floorsheim, Justmeherenow and Kossack4Truth.

Making your accusations and insinuations here on this page, particularly when the accusations are unaccompanied by a filed case supported by strong evidence at WP:SSP, is an outrageous violation of WP:AGF and WP:NPA. Take your accusations to WP:SSP, or keep them to yourselves and try to stick to the merits of your argument about content. WorkerBee74 (talk) 17:37, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

The problem is, if there ever is actual block evasion or other sockpuppetry it does need to be found and dealt with because it tends to undermine consensus and the entire editing process. A well-founded sockpuppetry accusation can never be considered a breach of assuming good faith, and refraining from it (much less tolerating sockpuppets) should never be a term of a truce in an edit war. However, I'm at a loss for how and where such things should be brought up. It's pretty normal for editors to discuss among themselves their suspicions about sockpuppetry in order to do a reality check and gather evidence before filing a formal case. Perhaps we could use some administrative guidance on how to deal with suspicions of sockpuppetry without stirring up trouble here on this page. Wikidemo (talk) 19:17, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Back on topic

SCJ, you are again *missing* the point. By your most recent comment, you ADMIT that you are making "conclusions" and indeed the conclusions you are making are moral ones. There is nothing which fits the definition of "moral" more closely than to say something is "right" or something is "wrong". I am amazed that you are defending your efforts in that regard. The point is that YOU ARE NOT THE JUDGE of whether or not Rezko's/Obama's behavior/associations are "wrong" or "right". I implore you, please stop lecturing us on your opinion (your POV) that there's "nothing wrong" with the various things which have been reported regarding Resko. It is the job of THE READERS to draw their own conclusions on this - not for you to spoon feed them (or withhold information). We have established that you ADMIT you are making conclusions about the morality of Resko's actions (as described by the public facts) and you are, I contend, in error for doing that. It is of no interest to me WHATSOEVER (nor should it be to you) if Obama/Rezko are good or bad or have done right ot wrong. Rather, what we as editors MUST DO is compose a cogent article which conveys the relevant known facts regarding Obama in a manner which informs the readers. I contend that these issues regarding Resko are relevant to this article and I have stated my reasons: They are notable and verifiable and they directly inform the readers regarding Obama's association with an possibly in-trouble person. It is up to the readers to decide if that matters or if it's "wrong", not you. I will repeat my request: Please step back from this article and recuse yourself. You have over-stepped the bounds of good editing - you are insisting that we abide by your personal moral conclusions. Such actions by an editor are pure POV and must not stand. 216.153.214.89 (talk) 16:25, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with "216." If there's conflation, it's being done by a wide swath of media, from Talking Points Memo and Mother Jones on the left, to National Review on the right, and the entire neutral mainstream news media community in between. The secondary sources have overruled the objection by SCJ. WorkerBee74 (talk) 17:37, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

We're each free to reach conclusions and state them here, even to have POV biases and admit them here as part of the discussion. The goal is a result for the article that is well supported and neutral, not that every argument has to be. Instead of calling foul, why not simply say thank you for your contribution but I disagree and think it is unsupported and would bias the neutrality of the article? You can read "nothing wrong with that" in at least three ways: (1) shorthand for "I conclude that this statement is okay to include in the article"; (2) shorthand for "this fact does not by itself suggest that Obama engaged in unethical conduct"; or (3) shorthand for "obama did nothing wrong in taking this action". It's only the last one, I think, that miscasts this talk page discussion into a debate about Obama's worthiness. Why not ask SJC in what sense he means it, and if it is the last version say that you don't think we should be evaluating each fact for whehter Obama is "wrong"? Wikidemo (talk) 19:23, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

It's quite evident from his post that SJC meant precisely that, #3). Indeed he goes on at length to argue against allowing the facts in because they don't matter - and because they don't matter, we ought not to allow them to be "conflated" together in the article. My point is that SJC is not (and neither are we) the judge of what matters or not. If it's notable and verifiable, it belongs in the article. Frankly, I feel that the probity of Presidential Candidates/Senators is of paramount concern to many readers. And frankly yes, I feel that this information could reflect poorly on Obama's probity, but the fairness answer to that is to not give it undue or excessive weight. On the other had, to cavalierly dismiss it as not mattering via a there's "nothing wrong with that", is to insert our judgement for the readers. Let the readers decide for themselves. Our duty is to avoid taking sides for or against Obama and not try to pile on over this issue. Even so, the Resko connection/issue as reported in the media must be in this article or as I said, this is a farce. 216.153.214.89 (talk) 20:51, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, that's a solid argument, that it's up to the sources and not us editors to decide what is important and that we should not dismiss and refuse to report things that are issues to the public as a whole. I won't bother restating my position here, which is somewhere in between. You don't have much to worry about the "farce" version being the outcome - it looks pretty likely that the Rezko information will be in the article in some form, so the only question is how much of it, how it's worded, and where it's put. People seem to be coalescing around a 3-5 (I'm not going to bother counting) sentence version that's pretty dry and factual. And for the details they can follow the links and citations. Wikidemo (talk) 21:22, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Mountains and molehills and thinking about this for the long term

I want to make a general comment here which I hope is helpful both for the Rezko discussion and for future discussions of a similar nature (but you can also feel free to ignore it!). This is, right now, one of the more important and widely read articles on Wikipedia, one of the most widely read websites in the world. It's worth it to pause and read the preceding sentence again. An outsider looking at the talk page would see a bunch of folks bogged down in the minutiae of certain issues (but talking it out/staying civil of late which is great) and not so much actively working to better source the article (if that's necessary), provide better context for certain issues, improve clarity of writing, etc. In a way that's fine, at times it's important to focus on minutiae and hammer out agreements as we are doing now. But I hope we can all keep a larger picture in mind and think to the future, particularly as we debate nettlesome questions.

Barring exceptional circumstances, eight or so months from now (an eternity in Wikitime, but not long at all in the real world) Obama will either be in the first month of his first year as president of the U.S. or a failed presidential candidate back in the Senate. Try to imagine how different this article will look then. Certain sections (such as early life) will be similar, but probably we'll know even more details as further reporting is done. The campaign section will look completely different, and there might be a new section on his presidency. No doubt between now and then we, and the rest of the world, will have learned a lot more about Barack Obama and literally billions of words will be written about him in the months ahead. Why am I mentioning these obvious points? Just to suggest this: let's not sweat the small stuff too much, or get too bogged down in the details. Whatever we come up with now will evolve (vastly more than most Wiki articles) in the months and years ahead. Taking Tony Rezko as an example, we don't know what will happen. Will it never be much of an issue in the general election? Will more information come out which makes Obama look far worse and which actually contributes to his defeat? One, the other, or something else, we just don't know.

In reality most of the viewpoints being articulated on this and other questions are not wildly different (a paragraph in this section vs. that one, two sentences or five, this wording or that one, etc.). The tendency here on Wikipedia though, and I'm sure we can all admit to getting caught up in this at times, is to stake out a position and defend it like it was the damn Alamo (a lot of folks are open to compromise here which is great, but you get my point). One thing we should bear in mind as we debate about various issues, and which should serve as an inducement to flexibility, is that this will all change later. Let's all try to pick our battles and recognize that, in the grand scheme of the universe and even of this article, whether we talk about Rezko in section C or section F and whether he gets 3 lines or 6 is relatively unimportant. </sermony diatribe>

With that I'm going to start a new section on the Rezko issue (I know, too many already) as the discussion has become unfocused and all over the place so we should try to centralize it.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 05:49, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. :-) I just discovered that I had missed some comments on the Rezko discussion several threads up. Modocc (talk) 06:58, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Centralizing Rezko discussion

I know this kind of thing has been tried before for the Ayers issue and perhaps others, but I think this is a good point at which to centralize the discussion on Rezko. I think we've made some good progress on this question above and there is proposed language from different people with which multiple editors have expressed at least some agreement. As often happens though the discussion is kind of all over the place now and perhaps too unwieldy to be effective. I propose we centralize discussion here and avoid new subsections that take us off track. I most certainly don't want to impose this approach if others disagree with it and see a better route, it's just my personal view that we need to try to zero in and discuss this in one place.

If folks agree, let's have a two step process: 1) Editors can propose language to discuss Obama's ties to Rezko, while explaining where they want it in the article (don't editorialize, just word it as you want it worded and put links to your sources); 2) We discuss, not vote on, the various proposals, probably ending up with something slightly different from anything proposed, but keeping our eyes on the prize at all times, which is coming to some sort of rough consensus and ending the debate over Rezko.

Let's try to keep the focus on specific wording and avoid philosophizing or general statements. In the scheme of things this is not a major issue and we should come to some agreement soon, knowing we can always make adjustments later. I would also propose we set a bit of a time limit on discussion (maybe five days or a week) and bring it to a close at the end, making every effort to arrive at some form of consensus even if not everyone is happy.

Let's think of this not just as a way to discuss and put to rest the Rezko issue, but also as a model (if it actually works!) for future discussions on difficult topics.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 06:24, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Proposed Rezko language

Let's try to keep this to about four or five proposals AT MOST, bearing in mind that this is not a vote for a certain version and we can tweak anything proposed here (i.e., if someone has proposed something close to what you want, just discuss differences you have with it in the discussion section below). If you add new proposed language, start your own subsection and make sure you point out which section or sections of the article you want the proposed language to live in.

Proposal 1: Current language slightly altered

The existing language isn't too bad, but I would make some minor modifications:

The land adjacent to their house was simultaneously sold to the wife of developer Tony Rezko, a fundraiser for several prominent Illinois politicians from both major political parties, and the transaction later attracted some media scrutiny. Rezko was investigated for unrelated corruption charges, for which he was later convicted. Although Obama was not accused of any wrongdoing, he donated $150,000 in Rezko-linked campaign contributions to charity.

I would suggest that the stability of the previous version was more a consequence of many editors stepping away from the article for a few days; however, my proposed language is very similar. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:21, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• Support
  1. Support -- Scjessey (talk) 18:21, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
  2. Support. Slightly better language and more fluent. --Floridianed (talk) 18:30, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
  3. Support. This is pretty much the same as the one above, but the language isn't quite so clumsy. --Loonymonkey (talk) 18:32, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
  4. Support Yeah, this is slightly better wording. LotLE×talk 18:22, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
  5. Support as a better wording of our earlier compromise. Keeping the stability of that compromise is what's important. Shem^(talk) 22:30, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose
  1. Oppose too vague, too incomplete, see discussion below. Noroton (talk) 23:21, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
  2. Oppose Proposal 2 is best so far. Arkon (talk) 16:22, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
  3. Strongly Oppose. WorkerBee74 (talk) 18:02, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Proposal 2 (section title)

The easiest thing to do was take Scjessey's language as a base, although Wikidemo's and Workerbee74's previous proposals could have been reworked as well:

The land adjacent to their house was simultaneously sold to the wife of developer Tony Rezko, a friend and key fundraiser for Obama and other Illinois politicians from both major parties. The transaction later raised questions from many quarters about Obama's judgment. The purchases were made after Rezko was reported to be under investigation for unrelated corruption charges, for which he was later convicted. Later, a strip of the Rezko lot was sold to widen the Obama property. Obama later said it was "boneheaded" and "a mistake" for him to create the appearance of impropriety by involving Rezko in the real estate deals. Although Obama was not accused of any wrongdoing, he donated $150,000 in Rezko-linked campaign contributions to charity.

Aside from this, I might also propose language at another spot in the article, but I have to think about that. I can provide quotes and weblinks to articles to back up each statement (and footnotes will be added anyway), and I'm open to wording changes. Noroton (talk) 23:56, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• Support
  1. Support -- as author/proposer Noroton (talk) 23:56, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
  2. Support -- Best so far. Arkon (talk) 00:04, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
  3. Strongly Support. This is consistent with established Wikipedia practice and with WP:NPOV. It provides a proportionate amount of space to the POV that finds these real estate deals to be questionable. WorkerBee74 (talk) 16:35, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose
  1. Oppose - Some parts are not written in a neutral manner. Pretty sure "to widen the Obama property" is a synthesis, along with the biased "raised questions from many quarters about Obama's judgment." -- Scjessey (talk) 00:15, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
  2. Opposed. Doubles the length of the paragraph, and "raised questions from many quarters about Obama's judgment" is complete editorializing (intended to, by your own admission, imply that Obama has contradicted his campaign themes). Shem^(talk) 00:47, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
  3. Strongly Oppose. Adds more words for no good effect. Rambling; flows badly; and all the additions seem to amount to "throw stuff at the wall and hope something sticks". LotLE×talk 02:02, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
  4. Strongly Oppose. Some of this is blatantly POV, particularly the "raise questions about judgement" part. Further, the last sentence is a classic weasel word structure. What does his not being accused of wrongdoing have to do with his giving money to charity? --Loonymonkey (talk) 16:52, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
• Unclear
  1. Very good -- I may be offline for a while and may change to support (with caveats) on further reflection when I get back, but I like this approach. Wikidemo (talk) 00:02, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Proposal 3 (section title)

The land adjacent to their house was simultaneously purchased by the wife of developer Tony Rezko, who Obama has characterized as a friend. Rezko had been a fundraiser for Obama and other Illinois politicians from both major parties. The transaction and subsequent purchase of a portion of the adjacent lot by Obama later attracted media scrutiny due to unrelated corruption charges of which Rezko was ultimately convicted. In a 92-minute interview with three dozen journalists from the Chicago Tribune, Obama answered all questions about his personal and political connections with Rezko saying it was a "boneheaded move" and "in retrospect, this was an error" for him to be involved with Rezko in real estate transactions. Even though Obama was not accused of any wrongdoing and has never been accused of doing any personal or political favors for Rezko, he donated $150,000 in Rezko-linked campaign contributions to charity.

The point is if we're going to go into any detail at all we should go into enough detail to explain what happened here, and I think it's appropriate to lean primarily on [6]. -- Rick Block (talk) 04:22, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

• Support
  1. Support -- Rick Block (talk) (assumed, so added by Scjessey (talk) 18:14, 19 June 2008 (UTC))
  2. Strongly support. This is the best of the three, but I'd also support No. 2. WorkerBee74 (talk) 18:10, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose
  1. Oppose - reasonably neutral, but extraneous detail and extra length puts us into undue weight territory. Not sure what the point is of saying "three dozen journalists". -- Scjessey (talk) 12:34, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
  2. Strongly oppose. Even more needless words than Proposal 2. LotLE×talk 17:41, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
  3. Oppose very mildly - I think the additions are unnecessary detail which would be better in the election article; should include "questioned his judgment" language, which I'll provide conclusive evidence for very soon; the Chicago Trib mention is inappropriate, I think, because Obama gave much the same quotes elsehwere and gave the Trib's rival, the Sun-Times an interview the same day that was about as long (one source says 80 minutes, others say 90 minutes). Obama has been accused of doing a favor for Rezko, although it's a pretty minor thing (he once wrote a letter urging funding for a project that benefitted Rezko). Noroton (talk) 20:50, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Discussion of Rezko language

Proposal 1 discussion

Oppose -- after looking through a long representative sample of the sources, including some key sources often cited elsewhere, I have to conclude that this is too vague and incomplete for quite a few reasons (citations & quotes available for every point, even the minor ones):

• 1. Rezko must be identified as a "friend", something Obama characterized him as on March 15, 2008;
  2. Rezko must be identified as an important fundraiser for Obama, who has said just that about him, and plenty of reliable sources have said this as well; anything less masks the importance of the connection, and it can be fixed with a few words;
  3. It should be mentioned that Rezko advised Obama on the purchase; we don't need to say so, but we know this was at Obama's request, that Rezko visited the house with him, that Obama said he knew it was to his advantage that a friend buy the adjoining lot, and therefore this worked like a favor to Obama;
  4. The transaction attracted more than "some media scrutiny", it raised questions from many quarters about Obama's judgment, and if you think that sounds strong, just look: the questions have come from two or three Chicago good-government groups, the Chicago Tribune editorial board (which continues to endorse Obama), newspaper columnists in Chicago, reporters in Chicago and elsewhere, David Corn of Mother Jones magazine, and numerious national commentators across the political spectrum (including supporters), and then there's the Hillary Clinton campaign, the Republican National Committee -- obviously this list is only partial -- and the fact that Obama has been questioned about this has been itself reported; the Republican National Committee says this will definitely be a campaign issue in the fall; what made the matter more important is that central themes of Obama's campaign have been ethics and judgment;
  5. "unrelated corruption charges" isn't good enough -- they were corruption charges very closely related to the fact that he was a key fundraiser for Gov. Blagojevich (dating back to when Blagojevich was a state legislator); the fact that his crimes could only have occurred because he had entree into the Blogevich administration due to the fact that he built up a friendship/fundraising relationship with the politician is important to mention because that was the type of relationship he had with Obama; to put it into a metaphor, this was a house built by the same builder on a similar foundation at the same time in the same housing development -- if one foundation is faulty it may or may not mean that the other one is, but when considering the other house you pay attention to what happened with the first; the language can be fixed with: an Obama friend and key fundraiser for Illinois politicians of both major parties (if we can find one GOP friend of Rezko, we can word it slightly differently; numerous sources note he wasn't just any fundraiser for Obama but an important one);
  6. The transaction took place after it was prominently reported that Rezko was under investigation for corruption with a politician (Blagojevich) with whom he was a friend and important fundraiser, and that is specifically what raises the judgment question; so add to the second sentence The transaction took place after Rezko was reported to be under investigation for unrelated corruption charges, for which he was later convicted.
  7. This proposed language lacks the following statement that Obama repeated over and over again for more than a year: Obama later said that it was "boneheaded" and "a mistake" to create the appearance of impropriety by involving Rezko in the real estate transactions. If that's wordy, it's because I'm trying to be fair to Obama;
  8. I think the $150,000 figure is inaccurate by now, but I'm not sure. I'm suggesting a major rewrite, but not much longer. Obviously, I need to propose my own language; I'll do that soon. Noroton (talk) 22:37, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I read your suggestion with an open mind 'til I reached Points #4 and 5, Noroton. On your fourth point: "Media scrutiny" is perfectly neutral, and you want to replace it with a plainly subjective interpretation. On your fifth point: They are unrelated charges, nor has Obama been accused of any wrongdoing; I can tell you upfront that any attempt at diluting those two points will almost certainly invoke WP:BLP concerns and fail miserably. Shem^(talk) 22:48, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Shem, please reread. I'm not calling for removing the statement that the crimes were unrelated to Obama; my point is that the similarity of the relationships Rezko-Blagojevich and Rezko-Obama simply justifies a bit more attention. Neutrality for Wikipedia simply means that we cover the topic without a point of view, not that we make things unnecesarily vague -- it's a simple fact that this has been said about Obama. I repeat: a simple fact. WP:NPOV specifically allows us to describe a range of opinions. News of the Rezko-Obama dealings produced just this reaction; the reaction is worthy of our mention; the extra space I'm proposing is minuscule.

Thanks. As I've said elsewhere, for the most part these appear true, fairly and neutrally described, and verifiable / properly sourced. So for me it is a question of weight and relevancy (with too much weight or too little relevance creating a POV/balance issue even if unintended). Of them I am sympathetic to #2 (but not the specific word "important"), #6 (if we include Obama's claim that he did not know and took Rezko's assurances), and #7. #4 is arguable regarding "judgment" but not as to the extent of the criticism, which is minimal, and overall I don't think sufficiently relevant. #1 and 3 suffer from both weight and relevancy issues. #5 is tenuous and requires several leaps (or at least steps) of logic. #8, if true, is something we ought to fix. Wikidemo (talk) 22:55, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

By weight, you mean essentially a space issue, right? I'll write up my version and we'll see how much longer it is, but I think what I'll propose won't be much longer. As for relevancy, please keep that in mind and feel free to ask me about it when you see my language -- I'm going to need to footnote it, and I should be able to provide multiple quotes that I think will show relevancy, accuracy, importance, etc. When you see the sourcing and quotes, I think a lot of your other objections may disappear. Noroton (talk) 23:20, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Sure. Weight = volume X density x gravity. I'm game. Wikidemo (talk) 23:34, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Proposal 2 discussion

unrelated corruption charges -- in both proposals so far and the current language of the article -- is meant to say that the corruption charges against Rezko are not related to Obama, but that language might imply that there are "corruption charges" related to Obama. Obama, of course, has not been charged or accused of corruption with Rezko, just criticized for acting in a way that could create the appearance of an impropriety, something different. What about rewriting that sentence to: The purchases were made after Rezko was reported to be under investigation for corruption, for which he was later convicted in a case matter unrelated to Obama. Noroton (talk) 00:28, 19 June 2008 (UTC) -- Replaced "case" with "matter" for additional clarity -- don't want to imply an Obama criminal "case" -- whew! Noroton (talk) 00:38, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

• Scjessey's objections — (a) Pretty sure "to widen the Obama property" is a synthesis -- I'll find quotes/weblinks for you; (b) with the biased "raised questions from many quarters about Obama's judgment." See my point #4 in the Proposal 1 discussion; they say things like "raises questions about Obama's judgment" or "Senator Obama, doesn't this raise questions about your judgment?" No synthesis involved. Bias? Who rejects the idea that it doesn't raise questions about his judgment? It seems to be the widespread, consensus view. I can show the wide variety of numerous sources, so why not say "many"? Noroton (talk) 00:35, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Rather than respond specifically to your comment, let me instead point you to the comment I posted earlier that addresses this very issue of notability and coverage. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:34, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Sjessey, this is what you said, and it appears to be a different point entirely:

"It has received enormous national coverage"

I'm sorry, but that simply isn't true. I've seen hardly any coverage at all, and I watch political programming for pleasure. By way of comparison, I've seen considerably more coverage of McCain's Shia/Sunni mistake, and orders of magnitude more for his "100 years" in Iraq. Even the "bittergate" nonsense has received more coverage than Rezko, even though it was just a misstatement. This is simply a gross overstatement of importance, and I think the text I have proposed below is more than adequate coverage. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:41, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

You bring up two points, I offer to get evidence to counter your points, and when I ask you a question (so why not say "many"?) you bring up a different point, in effect telling me that no matter what evidence I bring to the table, you will not support it because in general you just don't believe it's important because of the coverage that you yourself have seen elsewhere. The difference in our proposals is about three lines, and yet those three lines amount to "a gross overstatement of importance." I think I'm just wasting my time and this space responding to your objections. Or is there any evidence I could bring that would sway you? I'm willing to try to work with anybody, but it's got to be a two-way street. If anyone else wants your questions answered, and if it would make a difference in what they would support, I invite them to ask, but I'm only going to spend time on something productive. Noroton (talk) 03:02, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Scjessey's objection on length (and Shem's and LotLE's): Also, to answer your last point (the one-paragraph quote above), the way to judge national coverage is to compare this coverage with other coverage of elements of Obama's life and how important these elements are. How many other five-line elements of Obama's life have received more coverage than this? This has been one of the more serious topics of coverage of Obama's life. I'm not talking about campaign comments -- this is biographical information having to do with a controversial person he's associated with, and it's been addressed by every single major news outlet in the United States and received coverage abroad. I have doubts that any changes in my proposed language would change LotLE's mind. Shem, is there any evidence (quotes, weblinks) that might change your mind? If so, I'm willing to present them. Noroton (talk) 03:19, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter how many links/sources/references you find. You have made up your mind about how much coverage you think there should be, based on your personal point of view, and now you are hunting for sources to justify your decision. And you keep saying that this has received a lot of media coverage, but it simply hasn't. We all know what transpired, and we are all quite capable of finding eleventy-billion references to support the facts, but doing so would violate WP:WEIGHT. It's a minor blip on the radar. A single tree in a huge forest. A little molehill in a mountain range. A grain of sand on a beach. An ordinary, yellow star in a galaxy of 100 billion others. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:48, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

This response is pretty full of self contradictory thought. If there are "eleventy-billion references", its silly to state that it is a minor blip. Arkon (talk) 16:20, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Er...no it isn't. The point I was making is that news organizations all regurgitate the same stories because of common sources like AP and Reuters. A minor event can be repeated on literally thousands of news sites automatically. This is not so with television coverage, however, which has not given the Rezko story any more than the barest minimum coverage. As I said before, it received orders of magnitude less coverage than McCain's "100 years" comment. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:58, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I really hope I am wrong here, but you seem to not only be infering the tv coverage is somehow more weighty than written coverage, but also that tv news doesn't duplicate coverage. Lastly, are you stating that all the references that can be found are just duplicates of an ap or reuters story? Arkon (talk) 21:23, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

---

If this section gets too long we can create new discussion subsections, but let's keep it centralized. Stay calm and civil, assume good faith, and don't comment on the motivations of other editors.

Obama's religion in infobox

The infobox lists Obama's church as the United Church of Christ, but he quit the church as reported here http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/05/31/obama.church/index.html. How come it's still listed as United Church of Christ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Codwar (talk • contribs) 23:09, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Trinity is the Church, United Church of Christ is the denomination. He quit the church but not the denomination. --Loonymonkey (talk) 23:18, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Cultural and Political Image

I have read, or sometimes skimmed, this wiki several times, and I can't help finally saying something about this section, and the ridiculous part about him being a "cultural Rorschach test".

1) There are too many people you could say this about. And

2) It has the distinct feel of something written about him by a detractor, which isn't, I think, what wikipedia is about.

He is who he is. His persona is not a canard, as this section very precisely supposes. And it is very, very not "neutral".

The first quotation used to support this is a single word from a New Yorker article: "everyman". I checked out the link. It's a biographical story, about a how the son of a kenyan lawyer comes to run against Jack Ryan for an Illinois Senate seat. The word "everyman" appears exactly once, in the title.

Come on! I mean, I was nowhere near this computer when I suddenly thought about this wiki that i had read weeks ago and how badly this "Rorschach" passage reeked of a smear. Now here i am making a case - but it's sad how little i have to work. The first quotation? An entry of this magnitude must have standards.

I'll rock the second quote - let's see: wait...what? It's a few sentences about how diverse he is. A quote from his book, a speech, and on the Oprah show.

A diverse person is not a neutral canvass upon which we all cast our own souls. This is straight up bullarky.

Please either file this under "criticism" or something, or toss it. It's neither scientific, nor successfully observant. It's a delicate, belabored smear, designed to appear insightful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by72.150.142.103 (talk) 10:05, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

This section was added in November 2006 to replace a list of trivia. As the originator of the "Rorschach" and "everyman" texts, I can attest that they were not intended as smears. However, I agree with 72 that not only this text, but the rest of the section as well has outlived its usefulness. We can use the article space it occupies more productively. I have BOLDly removed it. Discussion welcome. --HailFire (talk) 18:15, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Wow! Given the tempestuous history of this article, you don't think WP:BRD is a tiny bit aggressive? -- Scjessey (talk) 18:22, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

It has the whiff of a possible explosion. I don't think one post by an anon is quite a thorough discussion. That said, I tend to support HailFire's bold edit. The "Image" thing was a bit too informal in tone, and it's not clear that something as wiggly as that is really encyclopedic. However, call this weak support, since I'm also not convinced that there's not some good reclaimable material in there. LotLE×talk 18:32, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

We should do something about it but I'm not sure what. I think it's a bad idea to have long "image" sections in each politician's bio because the material, as useful and insightful as it may be about understanding sociology and pop culture, tends to trivialize the understanding of the people themselves. Deleting it probably goes too far because there is well-sourced notable material in there but we should refactor it, condense it down to a paragraph or two, and/or split it off into its own article. Wikidemo (talk) 19:32, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

when i woke up this afternoon (i work nights) and read that the passage had been deleted, i really fet for a minute like i had changed the world for the better. i'm new to this, hence the unsigned post. funny the way wikipedia gives you a sense of civic duty. Anyway, I see it's still there, and seems to change here and there.

I accept that the section may not have been intended as a smear - it seems that claim was heavy-handed.

The latest edit is an admirable improvement.

My worry was, and is, that the passage seemed to lend undue credence to arguments that Mr. Obama is somehow an "empty suit". That is the thrust of the Podhoritz piece in the New York Post. It claims, as many of his detractors have, that he is an idea, and not a person, and by extension that his supporters are delusional or lack the depth of understanding to comprehend his meaninglessness. As such, i suppose i don't argue for this section's complete exclusion, but i sincerely wish it were placed in a section devoted to criticisms, both overt and sidways.

Barack Hussein Obama II

We should make this the title of the page. He have Clinton with her middle name in the title, why can't we put Barack's middle name in the title? --Antonmaracel259 (talk) 17:23, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Biographies of living persons are titled with the common name of the subject, which is Barack Obama in this case. Rodham is the maiden name of Hillary Rodham Clinton, not her middle name (which is Diane). This has previously been discussed many times, so feel free to consult the extensive talk page archive in the future. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:38, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Why?

Why was this picture taken out? miranda 18:18, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

The image was taken out because the entire section it was in was deleted.[7] See the above section for discussion of the sections removal. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 18:42, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Rollback 4 hours

I apologize for any editors who have made good-faith changes today. I just rolled back to a version from earlier today. The server is unresponsive, so it's hard to look through edit histories, but someone dug up a really old version of the article, and inserted either the whole thing or large blocks of it.

The version prior to my restoration had material that was widely agreed on as obsolete, such as the digression on Blair and Ryan, the old "Jr." that consensus replaces with "II", old infobox material (e.g. how religion is noted), it lacks uncontroversial additions like the Illinois Project Vote! involvement, lacks links like "list of bills" that are nice to have, and so on.

Anyone who has made helpful piecewise changes, please make them again in this restored (roughly agreed-upon) version. I know the work is annoying, but it seems like the only way to get back all the non-controversial improvements of the last couple weeks. LotLE×talk 21:27, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

• Seconding Lulu's request. An appeal here. If you want to make a bold edit or bold reversion, please think twice first of all and consider discussing it here first, and if people object don't re-revert whether that's an addition or deletion of material. Also, for goodness sake, please take the time to edit in or out exactly what you think should be changed and don't simply revert or cut-and-paste old language. Reverting mass deletions and additions has the tendency to mung things up so it takes a lot of hand effort to clean up and re-apply all kinds of constructive uncontroversial edits that you didn't mean to reverse. That's what Lulu is trying to do at the moment after a series of reversions. Thanks, Wikidemo (talk) 21:28, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

• • Following up, it looks like it is this edit that created the mess. I'm pretty sure that it is just a direct revert to an exact version from about two weeks ago. However, I don't know an easy way to determine what exact version that was. FWIW, the editor User:US - Jimmy Slade does not seem to have edited this page other than this mass reversion. The account itself is a couple of weeks old, and has edited a variety of other pages (I haven't looked at the quality of those edits). LotLE×talk 21:41, 19 June 2008 (UTC)