User talk:Hodja Nasreddin and Phillie Phanatic: Difference between pages

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[[Image:Phillies Phanatic.jpg|thumb|right|300px|The Phillie Phanatic makes an appearance during the Phillies-Tigers Spring Training game at [[Bright House Networks Field]] in [[Clearwater, Florida]] on March 11, 2007.]]
==Welcome!==
The '''Phillie Phanatic''' is the official mascot of the [[Philadelphia Phillies]] [[Major League Baseball]] team.


== Profile ==
Hello, {{PAGENAME}}, and [[Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers|welcome]] to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:
A fat furry green creature with a cylindrical beak containing a tongue that sticks out, he was created by Harrison/Erickson of New York City (now known as Acme Mascots), who have had ties with [[Jim Henson]]'s [[Muppets]] and the team's marketing and promotions department during the winter after the 1977 season by a young executive named [[Dennis Lehman]], who thought that the team needed a mascot similar to [[San Diego, California|San Diego]]'s [[The Famous Chicken|Famous Chicken]]. Instead of a number on the back of his uniform shirt he wears a star.
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The character is named for the fanatical fans of the team after an incident during the third game of the [[1977 National League Championship Series]] played at [[Philadelphia, Pennsylvania|Philadelphia's]] [[Veterans Stadium]], in which fans drove [[Los Angeles Dodgers]] pitcher [[Burt Hooton]] into losing his composure after he complained to umpire [[Bob Engel]] over balls and strikes (he was removed from the game, but the Dodgers went on to win the game, and ultimately, the series). Another reason he was created, according to current owner and former team vice president [[Bill Giles (baseball)|Bill Giles]] was to bring more families to The Vet, as some of the more inebriated fans were involved in various fights when the team was doing well or poorly.<ref name="Red White and Green">{{cite web|url=http://www.whyy.org/learninglab/archive.htmlred|title="Phanatic! A Phanumentary"|accessdate=2007-03-06|accessyear=2007}} A student film produced for the whyy.org web site in 2006</ref> The Phanatic replaced a pair of siblings dressed in 18th century garb named "Philadelphia Phil and Philadelphia Phillis", who were in the team logo from 1976 through 1978, and were part of the team's "Home Run Spectacular" at The Vet from 1971 through 1979.
''If you are interested in Russia-related themes'', you may want to check out the [[Portal:Russia|Russia Portal]], particularly the [[Portal:Russia/New article announcements]] and [[Portal:Russia/Russia-related Wikipedia notice board]]. You may even want to add these boards to your [[Special:Watchlist|watchlist]].


In his book ''Pouring Six Beers At A Time'', Giles wrote of the worst decision of his life when it came to the creation of the Phanatic. The design would cost $5,200 ([[United States dollar|US]]) for both the costume and the copyright ownership, or $3,900 just for the costume with Harrison/Erickson retaining the copyright. Giles chose to just buy the costume. Five years later, when Giles and his group of investors bought the team from Ruly Carpenter, the franchise paid $250,000 to Harrison/Erickson for the copyright.
Again, welcome! [[User:Alex Bakharev|Alex Bakharev]] 00:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


==Debut==
[[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration]]
The Phanatic debuted on April 25, 1978 at The Vet when the Phils played the [[Chicago Cubs]]. Since then, he was given the title "baseball's best mascot" by sports analyst and former Phillies player [[Tim McCarver]], who was the person who formally introduced the Phanatic on the "[[Captain Noah and His Magical Ark]]" show on [[WPVI]]-TV as he did promotional work for the team as a side from being the "designated catcher" for [[Steve Carlton]]. The Phanatic was originally portrayed by Dave Raymond, who was then working as an intern in the team's front office, for fifteen years, from 1978 to 1993. Raymond's father is retired college football hall of fame coach [[Harold "Tubby" Raymond]] at the [[University of Delaware]]. The elder Raymond was once quoted "I used to be known as the head football coach of the Fighting Blue Hens but now I will forever be known as the father of a green transvestite!" Also, the Phanatic was voted 'best mascot ever' by ''[[Sports Illustrated for Kids]]'' and ''[[Sports Illustrated]]''.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR 3RR]
{{User:Tangotango/RfA Analysis/Report}}


==Current Status==
==[[Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Cold War]]==
{{As of|2008}}, Tom Burgoyne serves as the Phanatic's "best friend". The Phanatic rides around on an [[All-terrain vehicle|ATV]], being the first professional mascot to do so, on the artificial turf of The Vet, and now, with regular tires, on the grass at [[Citizens Bank Park]]. The Phillie Phanatic is one of the most popular and most easily recognized mascots in all of sports. He has a [[Japan]]ese counterpart from the [[Hiroshima Carp]] named Slyly. In 2005, Raymond founded the [[Mascot Hall of Fame]], and the Phanatic was inducted as a charter member of the Class of 2005. Burgoyne has written five children's books featuring the Phanatic that the team has published since 2003.


One week before the Phillies had their 2006 opener, the Phanatic was "dyed" red as part of the team's week-long promotion to "Paint the Town Red" as he was "dipped into a special paint" made by a team sponsor - [[MAB Paints]] - and was changed from green to red. He returned to his regular color in time for the season opener on April 3 of that year. This was repeated for the 2007 season, as he became red at a Philadelphia Fire Department station (with help from his backup, Matt Mailor in the green outfit) to help raise funds for [[smoke alarm]]s in Philadelphia, and over $4,000 was raised. On April 2nd, he returned to his green hue in time for the opener. This was repeated, starting March 24th, 2008, as the theme (that season) of "Paint the Town Red Week" was volunteerism.
Hi - I thought this might be of some interest to you. One area you might want to expand is the influence of Solzhenitsyn on the Cold War (and human rights/Helsinki in general); also, the space race and scientific competition is only mentioned (Sputnik specifically, but no mention of the moon landing) - perhaps also areas you may wish to look into. Still, overall it's quite good, I think. [[User:Biruitorul|Biruitorul]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Biruitorul|Talk]]</sup></small> 03:34, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
:I made a few random comments just to start from something. There are many more.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 06:04, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
::Thanks - I appreciate it. I'll look into the points you raised and see what I can come up with. [[User:Biruitorul|Biruitorul]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Biruitorul|Talk]]</sup></small> 19:53, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
::OK, on the Korea/Vietnam point, here's the situation. Plenty of sources say there was no direct military engagement. And depending on how you define that, it may be accurate. However, the Soviet role in both Korea and Vietnam ''was'' probably big enough that it merits a footnote. Here's what I found: [http://books.google.com/books?id=9yqLZUITEI0C&pg=PA61&dq=%22Korean+War%22+%2BSoviet&lr=&as_brr=3&sig=ACfU3U0E_maWu4Gu6V6dKozX5plFAXORHA#PPA78,M1], [http://books.google.com/books?id=dB_8L4ysZrEC&pg=PA42&dq=%22Korean+War%22+%2BSoviet+%2Bpilots&lr=&as_brr=3&sig=ACfU3U29nQ5-vSh-SHKGgGmyMVPe27xJNQ], [http://books.google.com/books?id=N-0b-94OJPcC&pg=PA142&dq=%22Korean+War%22+%2BSoviet+%2Bpilots&lr=&as_brr=3&sig=ACfU3U1I6zri4DuMLQ2PHMD9CegrZNc2eA], [http://books.google.com/books?id=7t-XPOvtWUkC&pg=PA284&dq=%22Vietnam+War%22+%2BSoviet+%2Bpilots&lr=&as_brr=3&sig=ACfU3U2gK2Y_GwQlgidL2SQm5FQ1uOF3mg], [http://books.google.com/books?id=YlHDyi87AQYC&pg=PA257&dq=%22Vietnam+War%22+%2BSoviet+%2Bpilots&lr=&as_brr=3&sig=ACfU3U0FAAyk-R1AmtXS4UZD4BfoDZ90sQ], [http://books.google.com/books?id=cpynoFM-Jf4C&pg=PA121&vq=Vietnam&dq=%22Vietnam+War%22+%2BSoviet+%2Bpilots&lr=&as_brr=3&source=gbs_search_s&sig=ACfU3U0B4Tia-AzprJy_md5l8FA2ppkxVA]. Would you like to use these sources to write a footnote? Something like: "While no full-blown shooting war ever took place between the superpowers, Soviet involvement in Korea and possibly Vietnam saw direct clashes with American forces. In Korea, Soviet pilots engaged in every major air battle from 1950 on and inflicted heavy casualties on US/UN air units.<sup>[1]</sup> In Vietnam, the Soviets provided weapons, advisors and ground-based air defense personnel".<sup>[2]</sup> (Or: "The Soviets sent around 1000 pilots and additional aviation support personnel to North Vietnam, where they often sortied against American aircraft conducting air strikes".<sup>[3]</sup>) How does that sound? [[User:Biruitorul|Biruitorul]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Biruitorul|Talk]]</sup></small> 20:36, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
:::You should keep in mind that the involvement of Soviet air forces (actually ''all'' "Korean" air forces were Soviet) was an important factor of this war. That was ''the only'' war after WW II when US had no air superiority. The beginning of the war was ordered personally by Stalin, and the war ended the day he died. Sorry, I have an urgent work this summer, and can not do anything serious here.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 04:37, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
::::That's fine, I'll propose it on the talk page. [[User:Biruitorul|Biruitorul]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Biruitorul|Talk]]</sup></small> 05:19, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


He appeared in the [[closing credits]] of the film ''[[Rocky Balboa (film)|Rocky Balboa]]'' (2006).


For activities leading up to the 2009 season opener against the [[Atlanta Braves]] on [[April 6]]th, there will be an assortment of {{convert|5|ft|m}} tall fiberglass statues painted by artists with all monies raised going to Phillies' Charities.<ref>[http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/phi/community/paint_phanatic.jsp Phillies Community Relations web page]</ref>


==Trademark pranks and activities==
== The Internet in Putin’s Russia: Reinventing a Technology of Authoritarianism ==
* He ritually taunts the visiting team, dancing provocatively in front of their dugout, and smashing or stomping on an object, such as a batting helmet, representing the team.
* Standing on the roof of the Phillies dugout, he leads the crowd in attempts to "hex" the opposing pitcher, which led to the short-lived "Whammy Hand" used in the [[2007 National League Division Series]] against the [[Colorado Rockies]].
* Occasionally he takes pitching practice in the bullpen. This is announced on the stadium video screen.
* During pre-game practice, he has been known to steal fielders' gloves and throw them to fans.
* The Phanatic had a favorite umpire in the late [[Eric Gregg]], and would greet him enthusiastically on the field when Gregg was in charge.


==Phun Phacts==
Found this reference on the net. Did you heard or read about it ?
''From the Phillies Marketing Department.''


*'''Height:''' {{convert|6|ft|m}}
Also this might be useful [http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VH2-423RH29-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=e84aef089b139e86770aca4ecb915701]
*'''Weight:''' {{convert|300|lb|kg}} (mostly fat)
--[[User:Molobo|Molobo]] ([[User talk:Molobo|talk]]) 21:33, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Waistline:''' {{convert|90|in|cm}}
*'''"Birthplace":''' [[Galapagos Islands]]
*'''Physical Defects:''' Overweight, clumsy feet, extra-long beak, curled up tongue, gawking neck, slight case of body odor
*'''Mom:''' Pheobe
*'''Best Friend:''' Phyllis
*'''Favorite Foods:''' [[Soft pretzels]], [[hoagie]]s, [[cheesesteak]]s and [[Tastykake]]s
*'''Favorite Movie:''' ''[[Rocky]]''
*'''Favorite Song:''' ''[[Motownphilly]]'' by [[Boyz II Men]] (and ''[[Take Me Out To The Ballgame]]'', of course!)
*'''Most Memorable Moment:''' Riding down Broad Street in the [[1980 World Series]] Championship Parade


==Notable Events==
:Thank you! This is a good source on [[Internet censorship]] in general. I am glad that you was unblocked. Hope to see you around.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 21:51, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[http://www.psa.ac.uk/journals/pdf/5/2003/Marcus%20Alexander.pdf here].[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 22:30, 9 July 2008 (UTC)


Los Angeles Dodgers manager [[Tommy Lasorda]] famously assaulted the Phillie Phanatic during a nationally televised game after the Phanatic stomped on a life sized dummy donned with Lasorda's uniform.


The Phanatic also has the dubious distinction of being the most sued mascot in sports. Most notably, the Phillies had to pay a judgment of $2.5 million to a man at a paint store event when the Phanatic jumped the patron with a rough-house bear hug, sustaining him with serious back injuries.
==[[Media freedom in Russia]]==
I tried to rewrite the intro/lead of the [[Media freedom in Russia]] article but since I'm more interested in Ukraine my knowledge is not so big. The original lead was a bich of non-information + 1 soapboxing statment. It's hard to believe that some Russian editors believe there helping there country by downplaying things that are wrong in there country. I contected you since your edit's make sence! [[User:Mariah-Yulia|Mariah-Yulia]] ([[User talk:Mariah-Yulia|talk]]) 22:56, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


The Phillie Phanatic's head disappeared from the Wachovia Center during the Phillies' Final Pieces charity sale and auction in 2004. Tom Burgoyne had taken off the costume for a break then found the head missing when he returned. One week later someone anonymously called a disc jockey, saying he found the head and that he would bring it to the radio station. Police arrested Bernard Bechtel, 37, of Whitehall Township, Lehigh County, after he brought the $3,000 head to the station. Bechtel was charged with felony theft.


==Award!==
== See also ==
{{portalpar|Philadelphia|Libertybell alone small.jpg}}
{| style="border: 1px solid {{{border|blue}}}; background-color: {{{color|yellow}}};"
* [[List of Major League Baseball mascots]]
|rowspan="2" valign="top" | [[Image:Mugnist-3.jpg|50px]]
* [[Mascot Hall of Fame]]
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: bottom; height: 1.1em;" | '''For Bravery''' - 3rd degree
|-
|style="vertical-align: top; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | You are hereby awarded this Ukrainian National Award "For Bravery" for starting [[Media freedom in Russia]] and being brave enough to write/edit articles about controversial Russian subjects. [[User:Mariah-Yulia|Mariah-Yulia]] ([[User talk:Mariah-Yulia|talk]]) 22:47, 14 July 2008 (UTC)</sup>
|}


== References ==
It is nice to know there are Russian editors who are not constantly writing about controversial Ukrainian subjects ([[UPA]], [[Golodomor]]) but who know there are things wrong in there own country, hence a Ukrainian award! Not everything in Ukraine is stellar too BTW :) [[User:Mariah-Yulia|Mariah-Yulia]] ([[User talk:Mariah-Yulia|talk]]) 22:47, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
{{Reflist}}
USAToday.com > Baseball


== rolex ==
== External links ==
* [http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/phi/community/phi_community_phanatic.jsp Phanatic profile, from the official Phillies website]
Hello, Biophys; could you please look at the article [[rolex]]: it seems to be just adverticement of the company; even the note NPOV is systematically removed. [[User:Domitori|dima]] ([[User talk:Domitori|talk]]) 23:53, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
* [http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/stories/2002-07-25-phillie-phanatic_x.htm From USA Today], about the donation of a Phanatic outfit to the [[Baseball Hall of Fame]].
:Dima, I think this article provides some interesting information. Why do you pay so much attention?[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 02:44, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
* [http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/atm-qa-200810.html The Woman Behind Miss Piggy - Smithsonian Magazine], an interview with Bonnie Erickson
:: Biophys, thank you for the quick reply. The "Interesting information" would be how to neutralize Rolex. My colleagues and I get too many rolex messages. The antirolex sites offer the service of authomatic removal of the rolex messages from the mailboxes. For this reason I believe that the main meaning of rolex is "spam", but at least two users (one of them is admin) insist that this menaing should not appear in Wikipedia. I can easy imagine that "rolex" and "anti-rolex" sites are in the same hands. As they send the rolex messages to me, I am supposed to become the rolex specialist. I know your contributiuon as constructive, so, I communicate you. If you have no time to deal with rolex, just say, and I understand; I shall find other rolex victims. [[User:Domitori|dima]] ([[User talk:Domitori|talk]]) 03:09, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
:::To be honest, I have no idea about the rolex and anti-rolex problems, and this is very far from my interests (I may look at this later). But why should you be involved there with your background in physics? (I assume you are Dima K. who worked in Japan). Regards,[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 03:31, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
:::: From my point of view, I should not be involved at all; but distributors of rolex have opposite opinion. Would I get all the watches offered by email, I could live without to work, just selling these watches. Unfortunetely, it is only spam. [[User:Domitori|dima]] ([[User talk:Domitori|talk]]) 09:07, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
:::::I do not see any spam or serious [[WP:COI]] problems in article [[Rolex]]. If you wish, you might add something sourced in article [[E-mail spam]]...[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 02:48, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


{{Philadelphia Phillies|width=100}}
== Web Brigades ==


[[Category:Baseball team mascots]]
Not sure if you have heard this, but according to this [http://www.crime-research.org/news/19.07.2008/3464/] (July 19, 2008) many are speculating that the FSB is "making appeals in Russian Internet forums calling for all Russian hackers to unite and launch a large-scale attack" on Ukraine the Baltics etc. Could this be used to help the article? [[User:Ostap R|Ostap]] 03:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
[[Category:Mascot Hall of Fame]]

[[Category:Philadelphia Phillies]]
:Yes, [http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/072108-georgia-presidents-web-site-falls.html see another article]. If you can read Russian, you might also read [http://www.pravda.ru/society/fashion/models/39466-0/ this "Russian version of governing the history"]. This is not a joke and corroborated by other sources like books by [[Anatoliy Golitsyn]]. [[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 03:35, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
[[Category:Sports in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania]]

== Citation? ==

[https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Totalitarianism&diff=228676067&oldid=228674621 This edit] of yours does not restore a citation, despite an edit summary saying that it does. It does restore an uncited quotation. Also, the first portion of it restores a sentence fragment "He conceded that". Could you please take a look and work out what you meant to do? - [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] | [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 06:14, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

:Thank you. This is direct citation from book by [[Richard Pipes]] ''Russia Under the Bolshevik Regime'', Vintage books, Random House Inc., New York, 1995, ISBN 0-394-50242-6, page 259. - as indicated in the page (see the diff). Word "conceded" can be replaced by "asserted" or something else.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 16:45, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

::Ah! The citation should come after the quotation. It was completely confusing as it stood. I'll fix. - [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] | [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 19:53, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

:::I draw your attention to the fact that Pipes is not directly quoting hitler, but quoting Rauschning allegedly quoting Hitler. Rauschning is generallly not viewed as entirely reliable. I must stress that I am in no way speaking from a revisionist viewpoint - rather the opposite - but it is fairly clear that Rauschning did not meet with Hitler to anything like the extent claimed. [[Special:Contributions/78.86.18.55|78.86.18.55]] ([[User talk:78.86.18.55|talk]]) 22:17, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

::::That is why we should use good ''secondary'' sources like this book by Pipes (see [[WP:Verifiability]]). We have no obligation to dig out hundreds of primary sources cited in a secondary source. This is work for professional historians like Pipes. Any way, this was cited from the book by Pipes, and the attribution has been provided. Nothing else is needed.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 22:41, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

:::::I have replied on the article talk page. I still feel the way the quote is presented in the article article to be misleading as stands. [[Special:Contributions/78.86.18.55|78.86.18.55]] ([[User talk:78.86.18.55|talk]]) 23:08, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
::::::Fine, but let's discuss it there. I will double check.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 23:12, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

== Zemskov's data ==

Sorry for delayed response. I don't share your doubts about Zemskov'd data for two reasons:
First, Zemskov used KGB's data that were intended for internal use only. So peoples who wrote those papers had no reason to conceal anything. Sometimes, they even had to exaggerate a number of prisoners: you probably know that during a 'big purge' they had a 'plan', a minimal number of ''people's enemies'' to be arrested for certain period in certain region. Of course, sometimes they, probably, had to understate those numbers, but, again, I see no reason for them do that systematically.<br />Second reason to believe those numbers is as follows. I looked through several research papers that criticized Getty, Ritterspoon, Zemskov's articles. I found that the major criticism was focused on conclusions they made (they tried to estimate a number of Stalin's victims based on Gulag population). And this criticism seems quite reasonable, because far not all victims were Gulag prisoners. However, as regards to the data themselves, no serious doubts in their validity were raised. Therefore, I conclude Zemskov's numbers to be trustworthy, although his conclusions drawn from them are sometimes dubious. <br />I agree that those numbers are lower estimate rather than a real number of victims, however, the only unbiased way to deal with it is to show those numbers and then explain concretely how many victims left unaccounted and what are the reasons for these statements. Otherwise it would be a fiction, not a Wikipedia article.<br />All the best--[[User:Paul Siebert|Paul Siebert]] ([[User talk:Paul Siebert|talk]]) 04:43, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

:Thank you for response. First of all, could you please provide correct citation [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nazi_crimes_against_Soviet_POWs&diff=227360765&oldid=227216437 here] as I asked? Who is author and what is the title of the article (in the book by Russian Academy of Sciences)? You have inserted this segment to many WP articles. As about Zemskov data (used by many researchers), they were disputed for example by Antonov-Ovseenko. The numbers of prisoners in Gulag produced by NKVD/KGB itself is possibly 10 times lower than in reality, according to him. Soviet Union organizations are famous for producing completely bogus numbers, as can be supported by many sources. All economic production data for example are fake, and Gulag data are possibly not exception. One of problems: old Soviet military and intelligence archives are actually closed, so verification is not really possible.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 12:56, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

===Sourcing===

You have ZERO credibility when it comes to editing Soviet related articles since you have a massive anti-Soviet POV. You only believe sources which make ridiculous claims about the USSR (such as the Guinness Book of World Records claiming that 61 million people were killed by the Soviet regime o:) :)). All you want to do is make the Soviet Union look as evil as possible, and because of that you ignore the studies of actual historians and demographers that are based on real data and not propaganda. -[[User:YMB29|YMB29]] ([[User talk:YMB29|talk]]) 15:14, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

:Yes, we both have zero credibility per [[WP:NOR]]. Everything should be based on published sources. [[Guinness Book of World Records]] is a sufficently reliable source. Furthermore, what I cited was a scholarly book by a notable researcher on the subject, [[Yevgenia Albats]] who get her PhD at [[Harvard University]]. By using whatever source in her book, she actually endorses it as a reliable source. So, this is not just the "Book of records".[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 15:25, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

::The Guinness Book of World Records is not a serious source when it comes to this, especially when compared to detailed studies of historians I sourced. Albats is not a historian; she might be a good journalist, but she is not an expert on this and neither is she objective when it comes to Soviet history. If you think that whatever she "endorses" is the absolute truth then there is something wrong with you... -[[User:YMB29|YMB29]] ([[User talk:YMB29|talk]]) 15:51, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
:::''"Guinness Book of World Records is not a serious source"''. Says who? "''Albats is not a historian"''. Says who? She get PhD in political science in Harvard, authored several books, and has international recognition.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 15:57, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
::::Being a political scientist does not make her a historian with detailed knowledge of Soviet history. International recognition might be in journalism, not history. -[[User:YMB29|YMB29]] ([[User talk:YMB29|talk]]) 16:07, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
:::::Although she is a [[historian]] (see the article), it does not really matter. Her book published at several languages qualify as a reliable secondary source. If you have concerns, please ask at [[WP:RS]] noticeboard.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 16:21, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
::::::Various fictional books are also published in different languages, so what? Whatever she published should not be given precedence over detailed research by experts. Her detailed research was what? Opening the Guinness Book of World Records? -[[User:YMB29|YMB29]] ([[User talk:YMB29|talk]]) 17:12, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Please see [[Yevgenia Albats]] and Catherine A. Fitzpatrick. ''The State Within a State: The KGB and Its Hold on Russia - Past, Present, and Future'', 1994. ISBN 0-374-18104-7 [http://www.amazon.com/State-Within-Russia-Past-Present-Future/dp/0374527385 link]. [[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 18:34, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

:: Biophys, "pretty obvious what"? Who told me 5 minutes ago that Wikipedia is not about truth, but about verifiability? It's funny to see spiders in the can, when there are no scientific sources. ;) [[User:Beatle Fab Four|Beatle Fab Four]] ([[User talk:Beatle Fab Four|talk]]) 21:59, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

:::It tells: ''Much of Dyukov's work challenges the studies by other historians, particularly those critical of [[Soviet political repressions|Stalinist repression]] or the role of the USSR during World War II''. Of course it does. "Obolgannya voina", etc. But let's use talk page of the article for that.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 23:19, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

===Zemskov data, take two===
Frankly, I don't understand this type arguments. Albats earned her PhD in Harvard and published several scholarly books ''therefore'' she is trustworthy. Zemskov's data, although they are being used by many researchers, are questionable ''because'' Antonov-Ovseenko raised a concern about their validity. <br />Many researchers and political writers like Albats, Solzhenitsyn, Mikoyan and others wrote books that contain ''estimations'' - and this was absolutely reasonable because archive data were unavailable. Oleg Khlevnyuk, Viktor Zemskov and Arsenii Roginsky provide ''numbers''. You are scientist and I am scientist too, therefore we both understand a difference between estimations and exact numbers. Estimations are handwavings, you cannot discuss them seriously. Numbers, even when they are not correct, are something you can discuss. <br />For example, if I tell you I don't believe Albats, you argue she got her PhD in Harvard. If you tell me Zemskov's data are incorrect, I can ask you what are possible reasons for that? For instance, if someone argue that unexpectedly large number of prisoners was liberated from camps means nothing ''because'' in reality they were seriously ill and were expected to die in close future, therefore the real number of Stalin's victims was greater that Zemskov's data tell - I take this argument seriously. However if someone tell me that archive data are incorrect ''because'' they produced by NKVD that is known to be intrinsically malicious, probably, even towards future historians - beat me, I cannot take it seriously.
By the way. Google Scholar gives 22 citations to the Getti, Ritterspoon, Zemskov's paper - and 15 to Albats' ''The State Within a State''. More interestingly, jstor gives only 7 to 9 papers discussing Albats' book, and about 100 articles discuss Zemskov's work. --[[User:Paul Siebert|Paul Siebert]] ([[User talk:Paul Siebert|talk]]) 04:01, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
::Google searches do not prove anything at all. This is not a valid method to assess notability of anything. ''All'' estimates on this subject are based on unreliable sources. Therefore, they differ by at least ten times. I did not tell that researcher X is better than researcher Y (although Getty is an openly "revisionist" historian unlike Antonov-Ovseenko). I am telling that we can not represent any disputed statistics as fact, no matter if this is Zemskov, Albats, Ovseenko, or whoever else. All published alternative numbers (and yes, Ovseenko provided his numbers) must be presented per [[WP:NPOV]].[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 04:16, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
:::You tell: "''However if someone tell me that archive data are incorrect because they produced by NKVD that is known to be intrinsically malicious, probably, even towards future historians - beat me, I cannot take it seriously."''. Yes, I can not take KGB data seriously because this particular organization was caught many times while planting some professional disinformation (there are many sources). ''Do you regard a proven professional disinformation organization a reliable source?''[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 05:03, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
::If you read me carefully, you probably noticed I meant Google Scholar, not Google, those two are absolutely different. Google Scholar deals with scholarly publications and the number of citations provided by Google Scholar is broadly recognized (along with the data of Thompson Institute) among scientists (at least in my area, Biophysics/Molecular Biology) a criterion of the importance of someone's work.<br />I admit, it might not work for historical articles. That is why I looked through Jstor, that is focused mostly on humanitarian sciences, and the difference appeared to be even more dramatic. Why don't you comment that?<br />Your arguments about KGB disinformation are funny. If some organization is able to carry out a disinformation campaign, than its classified data intended for ''internal'' use are even more trustworthy. KGB, as well as, CIA, for instance, were created, among other, to carry out disinformation campaigns. During a long period, whole Soviet Union was a military organization, therefore some (considerable) level of disinformation had to be present there. However, it has no relation to the validity of archive numbers.<br />I would like you to understand that few years ago I considered Albats and similar authors as the only reliable source of information. However, recently I found that there are many scholarly articles where other data were presented. And those data look more convincing for me because they more resemble the results of scientific research.<br />Best regards,<br />--[[User:Paul Siebert|Paul Siebert]] ([[User talk:Paul Siebert|talk]]) 15:17, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

:You did not cite directly the internal KGB documents, as Albats did in her book. You cite Zemskov. This is fine. If another scholar tells that KGB/Zemskov data are disinformation, citing him is also fine per [[WP:NPOV]]. This is all. Please note that even ISI citation index is a poor measure of someone's notability, just as any other formal measure. Please, let's stop this discussion, as this is already a second circle.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 15:35, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
::Note, I never told Albats book contain disinformation. In contrast to you, I don't blame anybody in such intentions. I just proposed to take into account that quite different numbers are present in different sources and some of them look more convincing. If you are really a scientist, especially a Biophysicist, you probably understand that such my statement doesn't imply any of those sources to contain disinformation. <br />--[[User:Paul Siebert|Paul Siebert]] ([[User talk:Paul Siebert|talk]]) 16:14, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

::It was not me who told about wrong numbers. That was Antonov-Ovseeenko, and I will provide a reference to his book as time allows.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 16:26, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

== Speech freedom in Russia -- Andrey Kuznetsov ==

Добрый день, Андрей. Извините, что на русском, но так быстрее и проще.

Прежде всего хотел бы извиниться за свои может быть, не всегда корректные действия в прошлом.

Теперь о главном. Прежде всего, хотел бы уверить Вас, что наши цели и задачи в общем и целом совпадают. Также как и Вы, я хочу демократии в России, соблюдения прав и свобод гражданина, свободной прессы.

Мои действия ни в коем случае не являются своего рода идеологической войной и т.п. Однако есть один фактор, который Вы, как житель Соединенных Штатов, возможно не в полной мере представляете себе. Неверно, что любая критика состояния России приведёт к положительному результату. К положительному результату может привести только адекватная критика, неадекватная может и приводит лишь к росту паранойи и негативного имиджа Соединенных Штатов, вызывая своего рода защитную реакцию. В любом случае, должен происходить здоровый обмен мнениями, российские журналисты в целом достаточно адекватны. Вы ведь не владеете парой-тройкой нефтяных компаний, чтобы обогатиться в случае серъезного похолодания русско-американских отношений?

Надеюсь на конструктивное сотрудничество на страницах Википедии.

Евгений.

[[User:Ellol|ellol]] ([[User talk:Ellol|talk]]) 07:53, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

:Rough translation courtesy GOOGLE TRANSLATE.

Good day, Andrew. Sorry, that the Russian, but it faster and easier.
First of all I would like to apologize for its perhaps not always correct actions in the past.
Now on the home. First of all, I would like to assure you that our goals and objectives generally coincide. Like you, I want democracy in Russia, respect the rights and freedoms of citizens, free press.

My actions in no way is a kind of ideological war, etc. But there is one factor that you, as a resident of the United States may not fully imagine. Is not true that any criticism of the state of Russia will lead to a positive outcome. By the positive result could only lead critic adequate, inadequate and can only lead to increased paranoia and the negative image of the United States, causing a kind of defensive reaction. In any case, should be a healthy exchange of views, Russian journalists generally quite adequate. You do not own a pair-troika oil companies that enriched if honest cold Russian-American relations?
I look forward to constructive cooperation on the pages of Wikipedia.

Eugene.


----

Please remember this is ENGLISH WIKIPEDIA [[User:Bobanni|Bobanni]] ([[User talk:Bobanni|talk]]) 08:19, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, what's the matter when it's a personal message? I do not use offensive language nor make any veiled or overt threats. Just I can more natively express my ideas speaking in Russian, I hope Biophys didn't forget that language either. [[User:Ellol|ellol]] ([[User talk:Ellol|talk]]) 08:46, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Like do you know, that "Национализм" and "Nationalism" are different notions in fact? -- it's not that easy. -- sorry. [[User:Ellol|ellol]] ([[User talk:Ellol|talk]]) 08:54, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Or like, Japanese have four different words to say "thank you" in different situations; -- language does matter, in fact. [[User:Ellol|ellol]] ([[User talk:Ellol|talk]]) 09:02, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

:Wikipedia is not a battleground. Any disputes here have nothing to do with US-Russia relations. I can not make these relations worse, just as you can not make them better. Everything in WP has been already described in other sources. None of us is doing original research or propaganda here.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 13:17, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok. I just wanted to make it clear that in the end we stand on the common ideological ground. [[User:Ellol|ellol]] ([[User talk:Ellol|talk]]) 14:01, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

:Fine. I am not sure though what "ideological ground" you are talking about. As about "oil companies", it was not me who dropped down Russian stock market. That was someone else.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 14:43, 7 August 2008 (UTC)<br />


::Unfortunately, Wikipedia ''is'' a battleground. There are plenty ways to describe the same event. For exapmle, compare these two statements: ''Kennedy was assassinated by Osvald. Other sources state that was done by KGB'' and ''Kennedy was assassinated by KGB. Other sources state that Osvald did that alone.'' Both of them are formally neutral, aren't they? And Wikipedia is becoming more and more influential, so it ''can'' do relation between countries better or worse. Otherwise, there are no reason to play this game.<br />Best regards, <br />--[[User:Paul Siebert|Paul Siebert]] ([[User talk:Paul Siebert|talk]]) 15:31, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

:::Thank you for the honest opinion. You just said that "Wikipedia ''is'' a battleground", and that "Otherwise, there are no reason to play this game". But I see this completely differently. Wikipedia is influential because it is a good ''educational'' site. I am working here to ''educate'' myself and others, not to play stupid edit wars or promote propaganda of any kind. Yes, one can tell that ''everything affects everything''. For example, an WP article about Osvald or [[Andrei Lugovoy]] might infuriate [[Putin]] who will sell [[WMD]] to Iran, which will lead to [[WW III]]. This is a popular [[science fiction]] concept of course.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 15:57, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

== S. Ossetia ==
What do you mean?[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_in_South_Ossetia_%282008%29&diff=230652229&oldid=230651567] In the CNN video Medvedev says it's trying to "protect its civilians". The BBC article also quotes the Russian president. [[User:Pietervhuis|- Pieter_v]] ([[User talk:Pietervhuis|talk]]) 17:47, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
:What does it mean "its" in the phrase of Medvedev? What does it mean "ours"? It means these people (one can tell civilians) who live in South Ossetia and hold Russian passports. That is what I am trying to tell. The "citizenship" is a dubious matter. Are you sure that none of them are Georgian citizens?[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 17:53, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
::Hmm, I think we mean the same stuff, I just wanted to add how this is the view point of the president of Russia, and not that of international observers per se. [[User:Pietervhuis|- Pieter_v]] ([[User talk:Pietervhuis|talk]]) 18:24, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
:::Curent version cites statements by the Russian and Georgian presidents. The meaning of their statements is unclear. Russian side claims to protect inhabitants of South Ossetia who hold Russian passports. This should be explained. Of course this is only a claim. Real goals could be completely different, such as keeping high oil prices, a dismissal of Medvedev by Putin, personal animosity of Putin and Saakashvilli, profits from illegal arm trade in South Ossetia extracted by certain individuals, or whatever. What I am talking about is much easier. What is the official [[Casus belli]] from the Russian side? Let's explain it.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 18:33, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
::::What I always wonder is, why do Russians support independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, but oppose any other type of independence such as Chechnya and Kosovo. Do you know their argument? [[User:Pietervhuis|- Pieter_v]] ([[User talk:Pietervhuis|talk]]) 20:16, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
:::::I personally support independence of everyone per the Right of nations for [[self-determination]]. Russian nationalists actually do not support independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. They support these territories to be annexed by Russia (the "independence" is only a talk to achieve that goal). In fact, this goal has been already achieved: these territories and their leaders are completely controlled by the Russian leadership. In this war, Russia simply protects something that already ''de facto'' belongs to her. Being quite logical, they do not support independence Chechnya (this is a ''de juro'' Russian property), as well as Kosovo (this belongs to their Serbian slavic brother's empire).[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 20:32, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
::::::But what do Ossetians/Abkhazians want themselves? Do they want independence, or to be a part of the Russian Federation? Also isn't the area said to be South Ossetia quite big for such a small population? The Ossetians already expanded their territory when they ethnic cleansed the Ingush people (See the [[Ossetian-Ingush conflict]]). [[User:Pietervhuis|- Pieter_v]] ([[User talk:Pietervhuis|talk]]) 21:04, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
::::::And btw, did you live in the Caucasus? What republic/oblast? [[User:Pietervhuis|- Pieter_v]] ([[User talk:Pietervhuis|talk]]) 21:05, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
:::::::I had many mountaineering and hiking trips there. I know best Abkhasia and Western and Central Caucasus. Ironically, most hospitable people lived at the Kodori Gorge, a future separation line between the Abkhasia and Georgia (but I was there ''before'' the [[Georgian-Abkhazian conflict]]). I have never been in Chechnya - not recommended for tourists. My friends had serious problems there - in the old Soviet times.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 21:19, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
::::::::Really those were still in the Soviet days? The Soviet days of the chechen-ingush assr aren't very well covered because of the censorship back then. What problems did they have, were they abducted ? ;) [[User:Pietervhuis|- Pieter_v]] ([[User talk:Pietervhuis|talk]]) 21:22, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::No, there were shooting and threats by youngsters, simply because the people were Russian tourists, but intervention of older people from a village helped to resolve the situation. Yes, that was before the Chechen independence.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 21:39, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
::::::::A reply to your another question... South Ossetians probably want to unite with North Ossetians, but a lot of Georgians live in South Ossetia, and they want to be in Georgia. Abkhasians want independence. But one should remember that they were only around 25% or less of population, and Georgians were ~40% of populations before the [[Georgian-Abkhazian conflict]], and the Georgians were forcefully evicted or run away during the conflict. As about Ossetian-Ingush conflict, that is a long-term result of Stalinist national politics. The republics state lines have been ''intentionally'' created in a such way to divide people of the same ethnicity (e.g. Ossetians) and "unite" peoples whit long-term animosities (e.g. Karachaevtsy and Cherkessy).[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 21:39, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::Thanks for the reply. Fun fact btw, Stalin's ethnicy is unsure, so one can't say he's either Georgian, or Georgian-born (He's Soviet born). There's a lot of indications that Stalin was at least part Ossetian. Check some books about it. (concerning that discussion you linked) [[User:Pietervhuis|- Pieter_v]] ([[User talk:Pietervhuis|talk]]) 23:06, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


==Request for mediation accepted==
{| class="messagebox" style="width:90%"
|-
|[[Image:Exquisite-folder5.png|75px]]
|A [[Wikipedia:Requests for mediation|Request for Mediation]] to which you were are a party has been [[Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Guide to accepted cases#Post-acceptance|accepted]].<br>You can find more information on the case subpage, [[Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Russia]].</center><br>
::''For the Mediation Committee,'' [[User:Daniel|Daniel]] ([[User talk:Daniel|talk]]) 02:40, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
|}
<small><center>This message delivered by [[User:MediationBot1|MediationBot]], an automated bot account [[Wikipedia:Mediation Committee#MediationBot|operated]] by the [[Wikipedia:Mediation Committee|Mediation Committee]] to perform case management.<br>If you have questions about this bot, please [[Wikipedia talk:Mediation Committee|contact the Mediation Committee directly]].</small></center>

:Hey there. One of the parties to this mediation is presently on holiday. So we'll proceed when he gets back. Thanks. &mdash;[[User:Sean Whitton|Sean Whitton]] / 10:38, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

::He's back. Would you kindly e-mail me an e-mail address for you; I much prefer to mediate over e-mail unless you have any objections. My address is sean //AT\\ silentflame //DOT\\ com - thanks. &mdash;[[User:Sean Whitton|Sean Whitton]] / 10:17, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

:::Please use "E-mail this user" wikipedia option. I stated my position [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_mediation/Russia here]. I will support any agreement made by other sides. If you want me to make a compromise version of the text, I would prefer to make it openly in WP.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 15:11, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

== Article about war reporting ==

Hallo. I'm a journalist writing for Austrian Newspaper "Falter". I'm working on a story about war reporting on Wikipedia (focused on South Ossetia War). I would like to ask you a few questions via email about this subject (concerning neutrality and propaganda on Wikipedia). I would be really pleased, if you agreed to answer my questions. If you are interested just send me a message via my Wikipedia profile Best regards, [[User:Wueddens|Wueddens]] ([[User talk:Wueddens|talk]]) 14:37, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
:Yes, please. You are very welcome to ask. Please respect my anonymity in WP however. Please use "E-mail this user" option [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Biophys here]. I would prefer to reply at your WP talk page unless this is something really private. [[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 15:15, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Your questions:

What is your motivation to write articles on Wikipedia?
:First, I wanted to write about certain physics/chemistry/biology subjects I am familiar with (you can look at the ''beginning'' of my edit history). Then, I switched to Russian history and politics. I was brainwashed in the former Soviet Union and wanted to clear up my mind. One can learn a lot here, and your efforts are usually not wasted - they remain in the internet, available for everyone. I also liked the idea of internet encyclopedia, with a lot of internal links which explain everything a reader needs to know about. Please also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Colchicum see here], I mostly agree with him,except that wikipedia still also works as a social networking site, which is one of the attractions, but also a major trouble. Later on, the editing here becomes an addiction, so it is very difficult to stop.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 16:07, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Why are you interested in the South Ossetian War?
:No, I am not so interested in the South Ossetian War. I simply could not see how certain users insert misinformation there.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 16:23, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Do you think Wikipedia could be misused for propaganda by governmental organisations?

:This depends which governments you are talking about. Just looking at the articles [[CIA]], [[Lynching in the United States]] and [[Allegations of state terrorism by the United States]], I can tell: this is not the work of US government. All scandals, crimes, and controversies, real or imaginable are collected there and in many other articles. As about other governments, I am not so sure. For example, I believe that many Russian government-related articles are not "misused" but simply ''owned'' by a group of users. Two examples of such articles are [[Russia]] and [[Putin]]. No one can insert any serious criticism there. Everything will be immediately deleted, no matter how well it was sourced. I have absolutely no proof if anyone was paid by the Russian government. I know however that Russian government spent billions to create a good image of Russia, and they would be fools not to do something in wikipedia. By the way, a majority of articles on Russian history in wikipedia represent position of the [[Soviet historiography]] and would be gladly approved by the Soviet [[Glavlit]]. This is my personal opinion. [[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 17:17, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Do you think that Wikipedia is an adequate platform for war reporting?
:It can be used as a platform for war reporting, but it does not replace regular reporting in newspapers. This is an encyclopedia. It is ''based'' on the regular reporting and other outside publications.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 16:23, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

What are the advantages of Wikipedia compared to traditional news platforms like bbc.co.uk?

:'''First''' and major advantage is ability to provide a lot of internal links. For example the South Ossetian War is linked to articles about Kokoity, Putin, Ossetians, Georgia, and so on. That is why electronic encyclopedia is needed. '''Second''' advantage is providing brief ''review'' articles written at a popular science/history level or slightly above (one can not find this in regular newspaper reports). '''Third''' advantage is the nature of wikipedia as an efficient electronic ''collaboration tool''. By combining efforts of many people, it can create something that is not possible find in any other places. This is usually happens when at least one participant has a unique knowledge of the subject (if you want, I can give you some examples). '''Forth advantage''': the content is freely reusable - no copyright problems.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 16:23, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Have you ever been involved involved in an edit war? If so, why?

:Yes, I did, but only in political articles. Editing natural science subjects is a very different experience: students and teachers are usually polite and nice, and they used to follow certain behavior standards which are widely accepted in the scientific community. They do not cheat and lie. A vast majority of wikipedians who edit "politics" area are also very reasonable people and ready to negotiate the disagreements. However, there are a few people who consider WP as a battleground and who are strongly influenced by different types of propaganda. Then, they simply do not want use scholarly sources in the articles, and I can not productively negotiate with them. As the most recent example, look at [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Human_rights_in_the_Soviet_Union&action=history this article]. I am trying to explain him [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Human_rights_in_the_Soviet_Union#Moving_forward.2C_take_two at the talk page] that statements in the article are supported by sources. I cite a Russian scholarly book that provides text of original Russian documents; I provide original Russian citation (this user is apparently a Russian); I cite an excellent Western scholarly book written by best European historians. Still, he simply reverts my edits. Note that he reverts the text to ''my own older version'', slightly modified by him. I actually took into account the criticism of this user and the notes of another user (see talk page), but he still reverts everything back. There is a [[WP:Dispute resolution]], but I know from my past experience that such mechanisms are not very helpful for dealing with such users, and my time is limited. This is ''Plague of wikipedia'', please see [[User:Moreschi/The Plague]]. [[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 16:51, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

== HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH ==

THANKS for keeping a check on colfer's repeated obsession to prevent my edits (thrice done without valid explanation!!)..shoud we move this part to 'internation reactions article'/ '..condemning russia' article (links given in "interntl. rctn"section) after giving a one/ two line summary in the present aricle?[[User:Cityvalyu|Cityvalyu]] ([[User talk:Cityvalyu|talk]]) 15:34, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
:No way. This is the only independent estimate of the civilian casualties, it should stay and be given more weight. [[User:Colchicum|Colchicum]] ([[User talk:Colchicum|talk]]) 15:36, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
::Agree with Colchicum. A lot of propaganda is going on. I think we should remove all highly biased and unreliable at the time of war statements of combatant's media (Russian, Georgian, and Ossetian) ''with regard to human rights violations'', and only use statements by international human rights organizations and most reputable media outlets like New York Times. Unfortunately, I will be unavailable during next few days.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 15:42, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
:::Agree that HRW is a good source. I removed some HRW material by mistake when reverting {{user|Cityvalyu}}. Please see [[Talk:2008 South Ossetia war#Human Rights Watch segregation]]. I explained that "there is no precedent to organize by source" in my first [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2008_South_Ossetia_war&diff=231909846&oldid=231909437 edit summary], by the way. -[[User:Colfer2|Colfer2]] ([[User talk:Colfer2|talk]]) 15:47, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

::::Colfer2, you made '''seven''' "Undids" yesterday in this article, as one can see from your edit history. As about your "ideological objectives", they are clear from : [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2008_South_Ossetia_war&diff=prev&oldid=231734954 this edit]. Your involvenet is not constructive, to tell this politely.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 16:00, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
*[http://www.echo.msk.ru/programs/personalno/534948-echo/ Illarionov]. [[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 00:24, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

==Some sources==
*[http://www.svobodanews.ru/Article/2008/08/18/20080818183053683.html Russian occupation of Gori]
*[http://www.echo.msk.ru/programs/code/535706-echo/ Chronology of Russian-Georgian war] by [[Yulia Latynina]]
*[http://www.echo.msk.ru/programs/personalno/534948-echo/ Preparations for the war] by [[Andrei Illarionov]].
*[http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/707f4ebe-686b-11dd-a4e5-0000779fd18c.html?nclick_check=1 Russia must stand down]
*[http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/08/18/biden_back_from_georgia_speaks.html Biden, Back from Georgia, Speaks Out Against Russian Invasion]
*[http://halldor2.blogspot.com/2008/08/valeria-novodvorskaya-succumbing-to.html Valeria Novodvorskaya: Succumbing to madness]
*[http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/25ec7414-723c-11dd-a44a-0000779fd18c.html Saakashvili lays blame for crisis firmly on Russia]
*[http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4602459.ece Far from the original conflict in Georgia, Russia's 'peacekeepers' dig in]
*[http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121963217681968159.html?mod=googlenews_wsj EU Leaders to Discuss Georgia As Russia Flouts West]
*[http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=19282 Saakashvili’s Account of Events that Led to Conflict]

===Ethnic cleansing of Georgians===
*[http://www.kommersant.ru/doc.aspx?DocsID=1011783&NodesID=5 We burned to the ground all Georgian towns and villages in South Ossetia]

{{Quotation|“We burned these houses. We want to make sure that they [the Georgians] can’t come back, because if they do come back, this will be a Georgian enclave again and this should not happen.” The officer went on to describe events during the fighting, including the execution of a Georgian armed man...[http://www.humanrightswatch.org/english/docs/2008/08/13/russia19620.htm]}}

*[http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4553499.ece 'Putin has given us an order that everyone must leave or be shot']

*[http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/20/world/europe/20refugee.html?_r=1&oref=slogin Survivors in Georgia Tell of Ethnic Killings]
*[http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/28/georgi19712.htm Georgia: Satellite Images Show Destruction, Ethnic Attacks]
*[http://tbilisiwebinfo.wordpress.com/2008/08/29/human-rights-watch-reports-on-ethnic-cleansing-in-georgia/ HRW on ethnic cleansing in Georgia]
*[http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4656780.ece Russia's buffer zone creates ghost villages in Georgia]
*[http://www.moscowtimes.ru/article/1010/42/370559.htm 'Ossetia Is for Ossetians, Let the Georgians Suffer']
*[http://www.inopressa.ru/repubblica/2008/09/02/14:29:07/bukowsky Bukovsky: Brezhnev was better than Putin]

According to Georgia, the rebels broke the truce by firing not just artillery, but heavy artillery (120 mm pieces that they were not supposed to have there in first place, according to the 1990s truce - but they had) and killing 10 Georgian peacekeepers and civilians in the villages. Ossetians evacuated their civilians, that is [http://eng.kavkaz-uzel.ru/newstext/engnews/id/1226466.html children, women and old people] (leaving a very large militia, of course, which means masses of male "civilians" ready to take arms and don some kind of uniform at any time, which they did), they also [http://www.derechos.org/nizkor/europa/caucasus/evacuated2.html brought volunteers from Russia]. In short, they were fully prepared and the "civilians" left were mostly militiamen. The evacuation was not secret, it was totally official: [http://fin-forex.com/in-south-ossetia-evacuation-has-begun/ "Women, children and old men remove from several villages of Znaursky area and Tskhinvali. Evacuation has begun on August, 2nd 2008г., informs RIA Novosti news agency."] (August 5th, 2008)

*[http://www.mfa.gov.ge/index.php?lang_id=ENG&sec_id=461&info_id=7664 Georian version] Great supplementary materials.

*[http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/09/10/opinion/edsheets.php Flaunting impunity in Russia's 'security zone'] By Lawrence Sheets, September 10, 2008, [[Herald Tribune]]

== Regarding reporting threat ==

RE "You violated WP:3RR rule in article 2008 South Ossetia War. Please revert yourself back or you may be reported. Thanks," The reverts in question are already awaiting administrator action, requested by Elysander. I've commented each of the reverts in discussion addressing Elysander's comments, while Elysander continued to vandalize the page. Feel free to report the issue if you feel it is necessary to address the two separately, but I feel the 3RR is tied to the other issued already raised. [[User:Anatoly.bourov|Anatoly.bourov]] ([[User talk:Anatoly.bourov|talk]]) 18:29, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
:That was not a "threat" but a good faith advice (I was also blocked in the past). The choice was yours.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 19:52, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

== Good work ==

I don't know how you can handle all the crap you get on wikipedia. Keep up the good work. [[User:Ostap R|Ostap]] 05:53, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
:I can not handle the crap.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 12:27, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
::But you appear to handle it quite well. I have never seen you lose your composure on wikipedia. [[User:Ostap R|Ostap]] 00:06, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
::By the way, I think you might be dealing with a sockpuppet above. [[User:Ostap R|Ostap]] 00:19, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
:::Sockpuppet of whom do you think?[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 02:02, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
::::Kostan1 is the latest of [[User:M.V.E.i.]]. The evidence is both striking and I'd say quite conclusive, indeed it is posted all over this wiki. [[User:Ostap R|Ostap]] 02:28, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
:::::Thanks a lot. Do you mean similar English errors and his habit to post all his "achievements" at his user page?[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 03:05, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
::::::It is far more obvious than that. Take for instance, his first edit. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Image:FamArabs.jpg&direction=next&oldid=226401850 this], those who have experience with him know about this.

::::::He edits the same articles, the same subjects, has the same strong POV, and perhaps most obviously of all has all the same spelling errors. He seemed to be doing better with that early on.

::::::And of course this pretty much makes it certain: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Kostan1&diff=next&oldid=233720558 Kostan1] ''"By grand-grandfather was a peasent executed by the NKVD in 1930 because of a lie of his neighbour about "anti-Soviet agitation''"

::::::[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive292#Name-calling_by_User:M.V.E.i..2C_again MVEi]. "''Me whose grand-grand-father was a peasent killed in 1930 by the Cheka/NKVD for "anti-soviet agitation" (and that was alie invented by neighbours ''" Even his family history is the same. I tried to ignore the fact that he has returned (I am starting to feel bad for him and he is not revert warring with me at least) but if he is giving you trouble you might want to report him. [[User:Ostap R|Ostap]] 03:18, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, Ostap. I have blocked him [[User:Alex Bakharev|Alex Bakharev]] ([[User talk:Alex Bakharev|talk]]) 03:34, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
:Oops. I didn't really want to get him blocked. He seemed to have acted better, even learned from his past blocks. But I guess others have had more experience with him. [[User:Ostap R|Ostap]] 03:42, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
::Alex was right. He must be blocked per WP policies.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 03:56, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
And what about [[User:Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog]]? He has very similar pattern of edits as indef-blocked [[User:HanzoHattori]] (Chechnya, Caucasus, My Lai events, Ninja in popular culture, Iraq) as anyone can see - [http://toolserver.org/~interiot/cgi-bin/Tool1/wannabe_kate?username=Captain%20Obvious%20and%20his%20crime-fighting%20dog&site=en.wikipedia.org], [http://toolserver.org/~interiot/cgi-bin/Tool1/wannabe_kate?username=HanzoHattori&site=en.wikipedia.org]. [[User:Alaexis|Alæxis]]<sub>[[User_talk:Alaexis|¿question?]]</sub> 09:50, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

:Yep it is him, I have blocked Captain as well. I proposed on [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Productive_socks]] to change the bans into the community restrictions. Please contribute [[User:Alex Bakharev|Alex Bakharev]] ([[User talk:Alex Bakharev|talk]]) 12:01, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

::I did not see a checkuser report, but the patterns are indeed very similar. I am sure you both knew that the patterns are similar for a long time ago, but decided to react only now for whatever reason...[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 14:37, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Oh, crap! Did I start this?! [[User:Ostap R|Ostap]] 16:37, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
::No, this is not you. Please see my last messages at talk pages.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 16:43, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

== Help ==

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Piotrus&diff=prev&oldid=234550234]
--[[User:Koretek|Koretek]] ([[User talk:Koretek|talk]]) 12:12, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. Sorry, but I can not be involved here. You have the same rights as anyone else. Please go ahead and do whatever you want to do.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 14:32, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

== Answer ==

Yes, I knew about the editing style similarity for a few days. Since I'm [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Productive_socks|not a big fan of indef blocks]] I did not notify any admins about it but only warned him a couple of times about his incivilty (at the [[Talk:2008 South Ossetia War]]) but this hasn't achieved anything, imho.

I've posted my message at your talk because of what I had seen there, in the very section I've posted to. It reminded me that there existed another user with the same problems. Best regards. [[User:Alaexis|Alæxis]]<sub>[[User_talk:Alaexis|¿question?]]</sub> 17:54, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

==[[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Piotrus 2]]==
An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened, and is located [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Piotrus 2|here]]. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Piotrus 2/Evidence]]. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Piotrus 2/Workshop]].

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, &mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Coren|Coren]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User Talk:Coren|(talk)]]</sup> 22:02, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

==An interview==
[http://www.echo.msk.ru/programs/albac/41311/ An interview] of [[Andrei Soldatov]] to [[Yevgenia Albats]] at the [[Echo of Moscow]]:

Е.АЛЬБАЦ: Тогда я хочу спрсоить А.Солдатова - Андрей, много ходит разговоров о том, что существуют так называемые "веб-бригады", что в интернете на разных форумах сидят профессиональные люди, которые вводят дезорганизацию в работе форума, вводят разговор, дискуссию в сторону уже совсем чего-то непотребного – есть даже исследования, сделаннные французами на эту тему. Что вы можете по этому поводу скзаать?

А.СОЛДАТОВ: Во-первых, касается это не только формуров. Есть более определенные вещи – например, если вспомните. Такая технология использовалась во время войны в Ираке – буквально за два месяца до взятия Багдада появился сайт, посвященный иракской войне, где группа людей, которые назывались сотрудниками ГРУ, опубликовали то, что они называли "сводками руководителя ГРУ", где расписывалось, как американцы проигрывают войну. Там указывались какие-то данные - вот еще 5 танков подбили, все это на фоне антиамериканской истерии, все это очень хорошо потреблялось. И, в принципе, этот сайт закончил существование только тогда, когда американцы уже вошли в Багдад, и окзаалось, что все эти подбитые танки то ли были, то ли нет - вобещм, результат не изменило. Второй момент тоже очень любопытный - если вспомните события в Нальчике, то буквально там была очень интересная цепь событий, когда буквально на следующий день вышло заявление МИД о том, что сайт "Кавказ-центр" это очень плохой ресурс, а через два дня появилось две команды, котоыре обозвали себя хакерами, две команды людей, которые формально независимы от государства – такое объединение молодежи, правда, очень скоординированное - которые стали заниматсья тем, что стали организовывать хакерские атаки на "Кавказ-Центр". То есть, активность может быть любая. Это может касатсья не только контента, но вот, например, "забанить" "Кавказ-Центр".

Е.АЛЬБАЦ: Но есть веб-бригады, или это придумка испуганных интернет-пользователей?

А.СОЛДАТОВ: Я не думаю, что это придумка. Потому что я по собственному сайту могу судить - у меня происходили такие моменты. Особенно, когда происходят такие события, как "Норд-Ост", например.

Е.АЛЬБАЦ: Где и кто этим занимается?

А.СОЛДАТОВ: Я думаю, что сложно четко сказать, при каких управлениях точно эти люди существуют – там разные структуры называют, называют Центр информационной безопасности, еще там есть некие моменты.

Е.АЛЬБАЦ: Это какие федеральные структуры?

А.СОЛДАТОВ: Понимаете, у нас были две структуры, которые занимаются интернетом - ФАПСИ и ФСБ. Потом, когда ФАПСИ не стало, то главная такая структура, о которой все забыли, это так называемый "Третий главк", назывался он Главное управление радиоэлектронной разведки на средствах связи.

Е.АЛЬБАЦ: Бывшее 16-е управление КГБ.

А.СОЛДАТОВ: Да, страшная структура. Ну, как страшная - такая эффективная структура, она занималась лурдесом, Камранью, в том числе, они занималсь разведкой в интернет. Все это влилось в состав ФСБ, так что сейчас фактически можно сказатЬ, что есть одна структура, которая этим занимается. Плюс еще МВД, в котором есть соответствующее управление, где тоже сидят люди довольно компетентыне, которые умеют этим заниматься.

A brief summary:
#both experts on Russian intelligence/FSB matters believe that "[[Internet brigades]]" do exist;
#one such team of people, who called themselves [[GRU]] officers, was actively involved in a disinformation campaign prior to US invasion of Iraq according to Soldatov;
#the teams are involved in hackers attacks, and they attacked Soldatov's own site during the [[Moscow theater hostage crisis]];
#the teams are coordinated by the Russian department of [[Signals intelligence]], which is a part of the [[FSB]] and has been formerly a part of 16th [[KGB]] department;
#there are also such teams in [[Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs]].

It is a matter of common knowledge that such "brigades" are very active at Russian "opposition" web sites. [http://grani.ru/Events/Terror/d.107120.html?limit=500 In this internet discussion] members of such "brigade" react to a criticism of Russian foregn policy by [[Andrei Piontkovsky]]. They use personal and anti-Jewish slander to "defame" the opponent.

''"They are actually hiring staff to curse online"'', said [[Liu Di]], a Chinese student who was arrested for posting her comments in [[blogs]].<ref name="China">[http://technology.guardian.co.uk/online/news/0,12597,1505988,00.html China's secret Internet police target critics with web of propaganda], by Jonathan Watts in Beijing, [[June 14]], [[2005]], [[Guardian Unlimited]]</ref>
{{reflist}}

== mercenaries discussion ==

Yesterday you took part in the mercenaries discussion. The user (Tananka) who insisted on the addition of this material was blocked for 3rr, but the discussion continues [[User_talk:Tananka#2008_South_Ossetia_War:Disputed_material|here]]. Would you explain to him there why these allegations should not appear in the infobox? I am getting tired of hearing the same arguments over and over. I don't know what else to say. Thanks, [[User:Ostap R|Ostap]] 04:47, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
:Well, you and me should not discuss this matter at the user talk page. Content questions should be discussed at article talk pages.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 05:01, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Relata_refero&diff=190972532&oldid=190951122 Asking for help]

Round 1, insertion of "multiple issues/OR" template
Irpen
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=191010537&oldid=191009176]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=191471981&oldid=191471693]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=191512895&oldid=191477658]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=197174341&oldid=197171708]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=197767714&oldid=197760139]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=197901475&oldid=197899012]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=199303312&oldid=199301475]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=202470238&oldid=202458790]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=203712622&oldid=203710893]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=204478465&oldid=204411038]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=219537025&oldid=219523362]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=219629040&oldid=219577809]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=220016856&oldid=220016513]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=224153685&oldid=224057757]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=234090038&oldid=234087616]

Relata
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=201011035&oldid=201006439]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=202396779&oldid=202396352]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=203981355&oldid=203946074]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=204409605&oldid=204407548]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=204869353&oldid=204867087 "by Irpen"]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=204876115&oldid=204873906]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=219979962&oldid=219978242]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=220085727&oldid=220066541]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=220144863&oldid=220096835]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=231836153&oldid=231248404]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=231952711&oldid=231848695]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=232056440&oldid=232051132]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=233748085&oldid=233726895]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=235871954&oldid=235680595]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=236298475&oldid=236099617],
and more.


Round 2, deletion of "Holodomor" template
Irpen
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=210244914&oldid=210244031]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=210262699&oldid=210256385]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=210619495&oldid=210501719]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=218097809&oldid=218096976]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=218343649&oldid=218297588]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=218349219&oldid=218347455]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=218966517&oldid=218948536]

Relata
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=210364435&oldid=210356572]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=211427570&oldid=211379440]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=218444252&oldid=218443785]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=218833023&oldid=218738276]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Denial_of_the_Holodomor&diff=218939995&oldid=218905490]

== New Great Game AfD ==
I think you should know one of the editors who argued so vigorously against the New Cold War article is now trying to do the same thing the New Great Game on [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/New Great Game (2nd nomination)|AfD]]--[[User:The Devil&#39;s Advocate|The Devil&#39;s Advocate]] ([[User talk:The Devil&#39;s Advocate|talk]]) 06:39, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

== Russian apartment bombings. ==

Hi. I am probably ''jumping the gun'', here, so apologies if you are actually doing it as I write.
That paragraph you are moving hasn't been put back in yet. Mariya - x - [[User:Mariya Oktyabrskaya|Mariya Oktyabrskaya]] ([[User talk:Mariya Oktyabrskaya|talk]]) 00:39, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

:I thought everyone, including you, agree that last paragraph of introduction should be moved elsewhere. Right? So, I moved this paragraph.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 00:45, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
::To where? I thought you were going to put it somewhere further down in the article. Sorry if that is what you did, and I'm just too daft to notice. Mariya - x - [[User:Mariya Oktyabrskaya|Mariya Oktyabrskaya]] ([[User talk:Mariya Oktyabrskaya|talk]]) 00:46, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
:::" Prospects for future investigation" of course. Please see the diff.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 00:49, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
::::Right. That's cleared that up. I am daft. I need a longer screen!! I saw the -390 count, assumed you had ''cut'' the para, and were going to ''paste'' it back in later. I wondered why you didn't do it in one edit. Very sorry. I must learn not to use the assume word (except when assuming Good Faith, of course). Mariya - x - [[User:Mariya Oktyabrskaya|Mariya Oktyabrskaya]] ([[User talk:Mariya Oktyabrskaya|talk]]) 00:55, 1 September 2008 (UTC) p.s. you can delete this whole section to hide my shame, if you want ;) [[User:Mariya Oktyabrskaya|Mariya Oktyabrskaya]] ([[User talk:Mariya Oktyabrskaya|talk]]) 00:55, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I am watching with interest your current contributions. Mariya - x - [[User:Mariya Oktyabrskaya|Mariya Oktyabrskaya]] ([[User talk:Mariya Oktyabrskaya|talk]]) 01:06, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
there appears to be a transcription error in the second para. please clarify.[[User:Mariya Oktyabrskaya|Mariya Oktyabrskaya]] ([[User talk:Mariya Oktyabrskaya|talk]]) 01:12, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

:Let's simply move somewhere. I do not like some of the changes but respect opinion of Colchicum. If he said: "this is not good", something must be improved. I finished this series of changes for now. Need more work later.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 01:14, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
::You are quite right. This version is at least better than what was there before. Well done. However, the second paragraph is not the same as that agreed on the talk page. Mariya - x - [[User:Mariya Oktyabrskaya|Mariya Oktyabrskaya]] ([[User talk:Mariya Oktyabrskaya|talk]]) 01:18, 1 September 2008 (UTC). And it's not in Putin's statement. [[User:Mariya Oktyabrskaya|Mariya Oktyabrskaya]] ([[User talk:Mariya Oktyabrskaya|talk]]) 01:21, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
Correct me (again) if I am wrong, but wasn't Yeltsin the President at the time of the bombings, not Putin (who seems to be President For Life now, one way or another - different job title, same powers)[[User:Mariya Oktyabrskaya|Mariya Oktyabrskaya]] ([[User talk:Mariya Oktyabrskaya|talk]]) 01:24, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
::I checked the dates. This time it was you that messed up;) I have demoted Putin to his Prime Minister job, and altered the text of the second para to what was agreed (plus of course leaving your bit about ''Prime Minister'' Putin)[[User:Mariya Oktyabrskaya|Mariya Oktyabrskaya]] ([[User talk:Mariya Oktyabrskaya|talk]]) 01:52, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
::The [[Ryazan]] bomb. The main article said it was on the 23rd. Your recent edit left it at the 23rd. But the ''agreed'' text on the talk page says it was the 22nd. Which is right? (because I don't know!!!). Mariya - x - [[User:Mariya Oktyabrskaya|Mariya Oktyabrskaya]] ([[User talk:Mariya Oktyabrskaya|talk]]) 01:58, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

== Order 270 ==

Dear Biophys. Could you please explain me why did you removed one of two points of view as irrelevant? In present version 80% are mentioned as an established fact, although detailed statistics that is provided in source I added refutes the present statement. If two sources give mutually contradicting information, both of them should be mentioned.--[[User:Paul Siebert|Paul Siebert]] ([[User talk:Paul Siebert|talk]]) 16:10, 1 September 2008 (UTC) --[[User:Paul Siebert|Paul Siebert]] ([[User talk:Paul Siebert|talk]]) 16:06, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

:I thought this is obvious. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Order_No._270&diff=prev&oldid=235592692 a deleted segment of text] does not tell anything at all about "Order 270". You have already included this segment to a lot of different articles. Let's not create content forks. If you want to conduct this or other similar discussions, ''please'' use talk pages of articles rather than my talk page. Thank you.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]])
::The first part of this paragraph is irrelevant in the same extent. To my opinion, the whole paragraph should be removed, however, since I didn't want any edit war, I just added a piece of text that helps to create more balanced vision. I am not intended to initiate a long discussion on this subject, that is why I decided not to create a new section in the article talk page. I thought addressing directly to author of the concrete editing to be a normal way for cooperation, however, if you are uncomfortable with that (in this concrete case), feel free to remove this section from your talk page. Very truly yours,<br /> --[[User:Paul Siebert|Paul Siebert]] ([[User talk:Paul Siebert|talk]]) 18:26, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
:::Fine. If you think "the whole paragraph should be removed", let's remove it.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 17:34, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
::::I think the new version looks better. Actually, it probably makes sense to discuss separately the order by itself and its implementation, because, as you know, there is a huge difference between those two things in Russia. I have a feeling you think I am a Stalin's advocate. That is not the case. The only thing I mean is that, in contrast to Germany, no orders were observed in the Soviet Union automatically and literally (both you and I know the Stalin's Constitution wasn't observed, for instance). So despite the cannibal nature of this order, the real tendency might be different, and it might change during the course of the war. I wouldn't say I know the real state of things; I just point your attention at two different sets of data, each of them cannot be disregarded by formal reasons and each of them require careful consideration. --[[User:Paul Siebert|Paul Siebert]] ([[User talk:Paul Siebert|talk]]) 18:56, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

==personal attack?==
If you're accusing me of making personal attacks by pointing out [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ABiophys&diff=236377148&oldid=236376897 your apparent dishonesty], then what were you doing [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:LokiiT#Misrepresentation_of_sources here?] Is that not a personal attack? I think it was not only a personal attack, but a threat, even though I did end up explaining my mistake. something you have yet to do. [[User:LokiiT|LokiiT]] ([[User talk:LokiiT|talk]]) 03:44, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
:Please re-read [[WP:CIV]]. It tells: ''Do not make personal attacks anywhere in Wikipedia. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Personal attacks will not help you make a point; they hurt the Wikipedia community and deter users from helping to create a good encyclopedia.''.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 03:54, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

==reply==
Hey, I think it's too bad that you're fed up at the moment. The affair with Getman images probably did the trick. I don't really know anything about that (provide me with a link if you want). The Getman images are really awesome and I've read all of them. Remember that images aren't supposed to be important for articles though, it's text and sources that matter. As a replacement you can place a link at the bottom of a page (about gulag for example) linking to the images such as "Nikolai Getman Images from Gulag". You can also use the description of the images as sources.

I agree that the unbelievable amount of Russian users that have signed up to argue at the S. Ossetia page is absurd. They've all signed up to edit war over something in the news and demographics win as there's far more Russian citizens than Georgians. I think they will decrease in the future though once time passes by, thankfully they refrain from editing other articles too. Some Georgian users have resumed editing after being carpet bombed too.

I'd advice you to take a brake for a while and then come back. I'd sure miss your presence, you know we've already lost a good editor. The most important thing however is that you enjoy editing. [[User:Grey Fox-9589|Grey Fox]] ([[User talk:Grey Fox-9589|talk]]) 19:41, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

:Thanks. Good note. I guess some people became the victims of ''informational carpet bombing''. I listen news and discussions from Russia on a regular basis, and believe me, I have never seen such Nazi-type rhetorics in the old Soviet times. Most people are so convinced. An attack to [[Crimean peninsula]] tomorrow would get an overhelming support. That is what state control of mass media means. [[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 19:47, 5 September 2008 (UTC) I do not think you ever listen [[Aleksandr Dugin|this man]].[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 20:17, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

::I think this large amount of nationalism is also the result of the collapse of the Soviet Union. The collapse felt like a defeat for Russia, and after defeat, nationalism usually follows. Just like with Germany after WWI. This could lead to much bigger conflicts though. The relationship between Russians and other ethnic groups inside Russia isn't very good to put it softly. The ironic thing is that these ethnic groups are growing rapidly in terms of population size, while ethnic Russians are sharply decreasing. Who knows how big internal conflicts will grow? [[User:Grey Fox-9589|Grey Fox]] ([[User talk:Grey Fox-9589|talk]]) 22:46, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

:::Not only Russian population declines but also many ethnic minorities. In fact Russia will soon be populated by Chinese who are coming in large numbers. But I want to tell you the story about the images. 1. An official permission to use these images from [[Jamestown Foundation]] has been obtained by email. 2. An official OTRS ticket from Wikimedia has been issued. 3. Someone decided to delete the images and arranged a deletion discussion at wikimedia commons. Four users voted 2:2 (some had a doubt that Foundation has a copyright on the images, even though the images were placed at the Foundation web site). 4. Everything has been deleted. Keep in mind that copyright requirements for images in Wikipedia and Commons are different, and they are more stringent in Commons. I will wait a little if the matter is settled in Commons. If not, I will download some of these images to wikipedia to have a new deletion discussion here. Since the requirements for WP and Commons are different, these images will not qualify for speedy deletion, without additional discussion.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 00:30, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
::::Strictly speaking, I am not suppose to know what they are doing in Commons. I can see however, [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Andrei_Lomize#Permission_was_granted_and_mailed_to_permissions-commons posted text of e-mail with Foundation permission] and a number of OTRS ticket there. I can also see there some objections by [[User:Nishkid64]], but this is only an opinion of this user. So, placing images here would be a legitimate procedure. Is not it?[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 00:41, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

== South Ossetia war ==

Hi. First I think there should be a straw poll on what most users think the title should be, or whether we should split the article. Then it should be taken to [[WP:RM]]. Right now I don't see a clear consensus so I can't move the page, but once there is one I will do so. <tt class="plainlinks">[[User:Khoikhoi|Khoi]][[User talk:Khoikhoi|khoi]]</tt> 04:28, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
:Unfortunately, I do not see any possibility to reach consensus about ''anything'' with a number of recent users who have few edits in WP. We should change our rules to allow established users decide such question. Otherwise all articles on hot political topics will be total mess, as they are right now.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 11:56, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

::Perhaps we should wait a few weeks then. Or maybe some move requests ''do'' only include established users, I'm not sure. You're going to have to ask another admin regarding that one. <tt class="plainlinks">[[User:Khoikhoi|Khoi]][[User talk:Khoikhoi|khoi]]</tt> 19:42, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
:::Thank you.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 01:00, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
== Note ==
Thanks for your message. I created a similar Ru:WP article there. Have a look at these [http://ru.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%8F:%D0%97%D0%B0%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%8B_%D0%BA_%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BC&diff=prev&oldid=10839986] [http://ru.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%9E%D0%B1%D1%81%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D1%83%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0:Muscovite99&diff=prev&oldid=10840084] - you are certain to enjoy it thoroughly as did I. It appears to confirm some things you told me months ago and that i then thought were a tad paranoid. Very informative and revealing, isn't it?[[User:Muscovite99|Muscovite99]] ([[User talk:Muscovite99|talk]]) 14:46, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

::*I think the closest would be "to dump om smb". But my point was actually the next post by Mitrius (read it carefully): you might not remember it but he quotes the phrase, which i wrote on your discussion page almost a year ago! And he imputes it to me.[[User:Muscovite99|Muscovite99]] ([[User talk:Muscovite99|talk]]) 16:52, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
::::Sorry, I did not realize that he means you. But there was no "canvassing" on your side because I did not vote in Russian WP. As about your alleged incivility in English WP, there was an RfC about it. The record-keeping is amazing. Same here, in English WP.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 18:10, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
:* Canvassing referred to smth much more recent (by-the-by where exactly is this banned; i actually merely notified people of a pending discussion -- many of them reacted the opposite way i would wish they did). Also: what the letters "rm" at the beginning of editirs' comments mean? Is it just "remark"?[[User:Muscovite99|Muscovite99]] ([[User talk:Muscovite99|talk]]) 15:00, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
:::I am sure you did not do anything wrong by notifying me. Please see [[WP:Canvassing]]. I usually use "rm" for "remove" (as for files in UNIX).[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 15:07, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

==CfD nomination of [[:Category:Russian political prisoners]]==
I have nominated {{lc|Russian political prisoners}} for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2008 September 11#Category:Russian political prisoners|the discussion page]]. Thank you. [[User:Russavia|Russavia]] <sup>[[User talk:Russavia|Dialogue]] [[Special:Contributions/Russavia|Stalk me]]</sup> 03:10, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
== Have a look at ==
here [[Talk:2008 South Ossetia war#Important new info]].[[User:Muscovite99|Muscovite99]] ([[User talk:Muscovite99|talk]]) 14:57, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
*I think this info is of immense import, especially given that it comes from Russia's quasi-official sources. See my last edits in the article (it might take some defending).[[User:Muscovite99|Muscovite99]] ([[User talk:Muscovite99|talk]]) 17:18, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
:*Also, i've had a look at the [[Dmitry Medvedev]] article - it is utterly pathetic. If you feel up to it, improve on it using material from the Russ equivalent (easpecially para 2.1.1 there - there's plenty of English-language sources there).[[User:Muscovite99|Muscovite99]] ([[User talk:Muscovite99|talk]]) 18:48, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
::[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Footnoted_quotes#Special_enforcement_on_biographies_of_living_persons Keep in mind this]. [[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 22:56, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
:::There is nothing we can do about it [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Piotrus_2/Workshop&diff=prev&oldid=237925820]. WP has become a tool of Russian state propaganda. Foundation can not fight with the state.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 14:31, 12 September 2008 (UTC)





== My condolences ==

I have seen much of the recent situation unfold. I hope you do not leave due to the harassment and intimidation (which was obviously the plan). Please stay and keep editing. [[User:Ostap R|Ostap]] 03:11, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
:Probably I will, but I have to spend more time at work. Thank you for support![[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 03:15, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Please, after this terrible situation take a short break but come back soon and continue to do the great work you've been doing. We need people like you here! [[User:Biruitorul|Biruitorul]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Biruitorul|Talk]]</sup></small> 04:19, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
:Co-signing.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<font style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> talk </font>]]</span></sub> 07:38, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
::Thank you! It was not really ''that'' bad. Such things only make me more combative. Unfortunately, I must reduce my participation here to bare minimum because my work suffers.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 12:57, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I fully agree with the concerns above. The speculations about your personality, especially those that could have been interpreted as threats of outing, were completely unacceptable. I hope the message sinks in in the minds of your detractors. That said, I suggest you consider following an advise I gave you earlier. If you care about your privacy, you should restrict off-wiki communication, separate the accounts for editing the articles in the field of your profession and the article on general historic topics, and carefully think before posting anything to talk pages. For example, outlandish remarks like [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AAlexander_Litvinenko&diff=201624655&oldid=201624429 this] in public fora are completely outrageous. Please take my advise close to your heart. --[[user:Irpen|Irpen]] 15:21, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

:Yes, I will now think more carefully. As about remark you cited, I believe it is completely appropriate and precisely on the subject/content of an article. As about my identity, an experienced WP administrator can establish it in ten minutes, simply based on history and content of my edits, and I know this perfectly well (I am not going to tell the recipe though since it can be used to trace other users). Yet, I want to remain anonymous in WP for a variety of reasons. [[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 15:44, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

::I'm glad you plan to stick around. I've seen the list of all the articles you've created and you've done even more productive work than I previously thought. If you're too occupied with work take a break for as long as necessary. I've been doing the same the past month. As for the kiddy trolls you'll encounter while editing political subjects, remember that most of them are probably teens in their early years. One thing I've learned from my previous troubled editing here is that wiki policies can either be your worst enemy or your best friend. Cheers. [[User:Grey Fox-9589|Grey Fox]] ([[User talk:Grey Fox-9589|talk]]) 02:17, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
:::Right. BTW, if you want to tell something to an administrator, you should use his talk page, not a talk page of another user. Real kiddy trolls are mostly doing vandalism. Those you are talking about can be young, but directed by certain older people.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 03:07, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
::::No, Biophys, I think you are wrong. This is much simpler. Our "best friend" turned out to be a foreign resident with no background in the Soviet Union due to his age as he himself once confessed. [[User:Colchicum|Colchicum]] ([[User talk:Colchicum|talk]]) 15:26, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
:::::Confessed where? You do not mean Grey Fox, right?[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 15:35, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
::::::I mean M. [[User:Colchicum|Colchicum]] ([[User talk:Colchicum|talk]]) 15:38, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Agree.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 17:02, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
My advice to you is edit more with an open mind, there seem to be a lot of editors with the [[Idee fixe]] that everything Russia does is good, but I got the idea that you have the Idee fixe that everything that Russia does is bad and will only get worse (for example your claim that [[Krim]] will soon be attacked by Russia lacks a ''[[smoking gun]]''). We need people like you to control the ''Putin-fan club'' but I don't want to see wikipedia turning into the ''Putin hate club''. I will try to get rid of my Idee fixe that everything [[Yulia Tymoshenko]] does is great.... naaaa too late.... [[User:Mariah-Yulia|Mariah-Yulia]] ([[User talk:Mariah-Yulia|talk]]) 21:21, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
:Thank you! But you got me wrong. I do not hate anyone, including even FSB, and I edited very little article [[Putin]]. Please see epigraph at my user page. That is what I really feel. And yes, I am well aware of the danger of Idee fixe - as a scientific worker. I study the subject before making any claims.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 21:35, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Miyokan has been community banned. [[User:Grey Fox-9589|Grey Fox]] ([[User talk:Grey Fox-9589|talk]]) 23:05, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

==If you feel threatened==
Biophys, if you feel threatened that you are being outed, I strongly advise you to invoke RtV at this account rather than go out of your way to seek the resolution of this problem. You can then return to editing under a new account name. Additionally, if you plan to edit topics in your professional field of speciality AND articles on unrelated to your RL profession political issues, you can do it from different undisclosed accounts as long as you never edit the same article from two accounts and do not vote with both in surveys.

I am not sure you are being outed indeed, but if this is true, this is very unfortunate. Several editors in the past fell victim of their stalkers. I also recommend that if you insist on editing privately, to avoid email communication and any talk page comments or usernames that would allow to suggest your RL background like profession place of origin, college, etc. I don't make such an effort myself but I realize that individual circumstances may be different from person to person. --[[user:Irpen|Irpen]] 18:20, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

:Thank you for your suggestion, but I have a problem with RtV policy. It tells: "''The "right to vanish" is not a "right to a fresh start" under a new identity. Vanishing means that the individual, not the account, is vanishing. There is no coming back for that individual.''". I have no intention of leaving WP forever, at least right now. Also Alex apparently deleted whole my talk page. Was it really necessary? Could he only delete certain threads?[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys|talk]]) 18:30, 15 September 2008 (UTC).

::I see your page is restored. You do not need to read RtV literally. As long as what you are doing would seem reasonable to most reasonable people, you can do it. This is how the WP works. Abandon this account and start editing from a different one if you feel this account is being compromised. I am not aware of any editing restrictions on you. So, you don't even need to notify any admins of your actions. For better privacy it may also help to disable your email. No one but yourself can make these choices for you. --[[user:Irpen|Irpen]] 18:34, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

==Userpage==
If you think you've seen the biggest Russian nationalists on wikipedia already, check out [[User:Kuban kazak]]'s userpage. Basically we have some kind of army officer editing wikipedia. [[User:Grey Fox-9589|Grey Fox]] ([[User talk:Grey Fox-9589|talk]]) 19:32, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
:As long as user follows WP rules, he is fine. He can place Stalin, Hitler, or Pol Pot at his own userpage. Of course I know this user. BTW, I completed my Arbcom evidence and have no intention to continue. Please keep in mind, we have ''a lot'' of army officers from various countries editing WP. This is not forbidden.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 19:54, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
::However his image of a ''hanging rope'' with a title ''"Mikahel [Saakashilli], I am waiting for you"'' is over the top. But I would rather not discuss this matter with him.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 20:01, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
==Some links==
*[http://www.svobodanews.ru/Article/2008/09/20/20080920000030830.html]

==Re:Your arbitration case==
I think you are quite right, on all counts. Alas, whether the growing bureaucracy of Wikipedia will see it eye to eye with us and do what's best for the project, or will again pass some half-hearted political decision... time will tell.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<font style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> talk </font>]]</span></sub> 05:11, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Piotrus&diff=240007391&oldid=239938260 I am afraid you were right]... Do you think that [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren/Proposed_decision#Irpen_restricted|this]] would be a solution? --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<font style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> talk </font>]]</span></sub> 19:46, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
::That ''might'' be a possible solution, but you would have to decide who of you edited which article ''first''. I tried such solution with another user (my second ArbCom case), but this only worked because we edit in different areas. I am not sure that would be a workable solution in your case, since you have a significant subject overlap.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 20:42, 23 September 2008 (UTC)



== Bogorm ==

A sockpuppetry case has been opened about Bogorm at [[Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Bogorm]]. I had thought it was put to rest with the RFCU, but he/she appears to not want to let go. Your comments would be appreciated as you were involved in the situation and had previously commented on the RFCU. Thanks. [[User:Toddst1|Toddst1]] <small>([[User talk: Toddst1|talk]])</small> 15:42, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
:OK, I will check this and comment later.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 15:57, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

== Re:Deacon's usual subjects ==

Biophys, I've been editing medieval Rus articles since I got to wikipedia, and my main editing interests are as everyone who knows me knows medieval historical topics. Moreover, the Piotrus article in question I had intended to edit for ages to fix Piotrus' mistakes (and I had edited the talk page previously!), but was waiting until I had the time. It had nothing to do with Irpen! [[User:Deacon of Pndapetzim|Deacon of Pndapetzim]] (<small>[[User talk:Deacon of Pndapetzim|Talk]]</small>) 16:35, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

:Did you had any editorial conflicts with Piotrus before this August? I guess you did not. You are great editor, but certain things looked really suspicious, and I commented about this. But ArbCom can sort this out much better than me. I think you made no obvious violations of WP policies, just like Piotrus or Alex Bakahrev. I also do not think your conflict with Piotrus requires an intervention of ArbCom. You should sort this out yourselves.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 16:52, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
::We had a ''few'' not so positive encounters (see my reply to Deacon in evidence for details).--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<font style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> talk </font>]]</span></sub> 22:32, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

:: I didn't bring the arbcom to resolve any conflict with Piotrus. I brought it because I believe Piotrus' behaviour in general needs to be addressed (and it is beyond the stage now where Piotrus himself can be trusted to address it), particularly with regard to his lack of editorial and personal integrity, a quality I value and think all thinking wikipedians ought to value in order for this project to work properly, though in this particular instance because of the particular problems it raises for the relevant huge contentious swathe of wikipedia. [[User:Deacon of Pndapetzim|Deacon of Pndapetzim]] (<small>[[User talk:Deacon of Pndapetzim|Talk]]</small>) 18:14, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

:::But that is something I can not understand. Starting such case means opening a can of worms and spending a lot of time and nerves, your time and time of others. You must be really convinced that Piotrus is an imminent danger to the entire project. Sorry, but I do not buy this. There is a lot of people who undeniably behave worse than Piotrus and contribute much less good content than him (some of them are participants of this case, but I certainly do not mean you). I can only agree that Piotrus is indeed "defensive" (rather than "combative"), in the sense that he uses smart ''but allowed by the rules'' strategies to survive in this hostile environment and contribute to "difficult" political subjects. If he edited less controversial subjects, he would have no problems at all. I believe that climate in this political/history WP section is indeed extraordinary hostile, in a striking contrast to Biology/Chemistry section. Starting an unnecessary case, like this one, only adds more hostilities rather than resolves anything, I am afraid.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 19:31, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

:::: Yes, if I believed things to be as you seem to believe I might have the same opinion as you, survival mechanism, and all. Maybe that is the cause, but it doesn't eliminate the problem. Ironically I believe Piotrus would do better if he edited honestly and with integrity as honest competent editors with power would eventually (eventually I may add) identify with him and come to his aid; that would have included me. C'est la vie. Whether the whole case only adds to the problem or not will depend on the perceptive abilities and bottle of arbcom. And yes, if they rubber-stamp his behaviour this will be a great boost to it and the long-term problems will get worse. I for one will edit on or not regardless, e-european articles will only concern me if I choose to make it so, but I'm entitled and obliged to try to make wiki a better place and to try to promote honest competent editing. Regards, [[User:Deacon of Pndapetzim|Deacon of Pndapetzim]] (<small>[[User talk:Deacon of Pndapetzim|Talk]]</small>) 00:20, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

==[[User:Piotrus/Morsels of wikiwisdom]]==
You may find my latest essays there interesting, they are significantly inspired by our current arbcom.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<font style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> talk </font>]]</span></sub> 22:30, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
:Yes, thank you very much. I found your notes very interesting. Unfortunately, I am practically fired from my job, in part due to spending too much time here. I am going to finish with evidence for your case and will not be very active later. Warm regards. I will always remember you and other good wikipedians.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 23:19, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
::Ouch. Wiki can be addictive. Take a wikiholiday and ensure your real life affairs are in order - but I am glad to hear you are not retiring completely! --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<font style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> talk </font>]]</span></sub> 04:47, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
:::Right. I just wanted to have a nice wikiholiday, but I had no other choice but to answer Alex Bakharev.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 00:44, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't see why removed some of your evidence. Remember - I don't think committee pays much attention to talk pages, and they are probably reading the case ''around now''.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<font style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> talk </font>]]</span></sub> 01:55, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
:I felt uneasy bringing things that are mostly about me (I can live with it), and I wanted to avoid confrontation with Alex. But perhaps this also affects other people, you including. This is the only reason I reverted.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 02:16, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

==Re:A technical question==
Nope, never seen this before. I use [[SeaMonkey]] and sometimes pages will fail to load completely, I have to reload them or wait until an edit happens to be able to see them again (using historical version may help, as well as redirects). Try a different browser if your problem persists (what browser are you using)? --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<font style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> talk </font>]]</span></sub> 16:03, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
:Interesting. Now it works. But ''this particular sub-page'' did not work from several different browsers, and even from a browser at a different UNIX computer.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 16:12, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
::A technical bug of some kind. [[WP:VPT]] would be a good place to ask for details, I think.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<font style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> talk </font>]]</span></sub> 16:50, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

==quick note==

[[User:Finalyzer]] violated 3rr at the SO page, you can report him. [[User:Grey Fox-9589|Grey Fox]] ([[User talk:Grey Fox-9589|talk]]) 17:17, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
:He did not recieve any warning about it. Besides, he is not active for a few hours; so the situation might be inrepreted as "stalled". You may try if you want. He is certainly not a newcomer. I think many SPAs who edit Ossetian war are actually socks.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 18:19, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
::Have you considered [[Wikipedia:Requests for CheckUser]]? --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<font style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> talk </font>]]</span></sub> 01:00, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

:::I never did it. I am not sure about SPAs who edit Ossetian war. They edit nothing else, so it is difficult to establish whose socks they are, even though they are clearly not newbies. There is another case I might submit, and it probably fells under definition of "3RR violation using sockpuppets", but that violation was a couple of months ago. I am also not sure how well should be justified a case.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 01:49, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

== Life Goes On ==

Hey Biophis, they want to delete [[Life Goes On (The Article)]]. Do you care to [[Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Life_Goes_On_(The_Article)|weigh in]] on whether it needs to be done? Thanks [[User:WH Coordinator|WH Coordinator]] ([[User talk:WH Coordinator|talk]]) 06:10, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

sorry for bugging you again, but Russavia [[WP:Articles_for_deletion/Life_Goes_On_(The_Article)|failed]] to delete [[Life Goes On (The Article)]] and is now trying to delete its sources using the copyright angle. Could you weigh in on the dispute<ref>[[WP:Possibly_unfree_images#Image:Life_goes_on_p1.png]]</ref><ref>[[WP:Possibly_unfree_images#Image:Life_goes_on_p2.png]]</ref><ref>[[WP:Possibly_unfree_images#Image:Life_goes_on_p3.png]]</ref><ref>[[WP:Possibly_unfree_images#Image:Life_goes_on_p4.png]]</ref><ref>[[WP:Possibly_unfree_images#Image:Life_goes_on_p5.png]]</ref><ref>[[WP:Possibly_unfree_images#Image:Life_goes_on_p6.png]]</ref><ref>[[WP:Possibly_unfree_images#Image:Life_goes_on_p7.png]]</ref>? [[User:WH Coordinator|WH Coordinator]] ([[User talk:WH Coordinator|talk]]) 10:30, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

{{reflist|2}}

== New system at the [[WP:AN3|3RR noticeboard]] ==

Hello Biophys. Regarding [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR&diff=next&oldid=242130971 your recent edit], which restored the sample report at the bottom of the page. The sample report is no longer kept there. See [[WT:AN3]] for the details of the reform, which are now covered in the instructions at the top of the noticeboard. When people hit 'Click here to add a new report' the text of the sample report is supplied for them to fill in. Some of us believe this is simpler. Also it saves having to keep on restoring the sample report every time it's deleted by mistake. [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 16:51, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

==An Invite to join WikiProject Russia==
<div style="margin: 0.5em; border: 2px lightsteelblue solid; background: whitesmoke; padding: 1em;" >
[[Image:Nuvola Russian flag.svg|right|48px|]]
Hi, you are cordially invited to join [[WP:RUSSIA|WikiProject Russia]]. We are a group of editors working to improve Wikipedia's coverage of topics related to Russia.

{{#if:Vladimir Putin|
{{!}}As you have shown an interest in '''[[Vladimir Putin]]''' we thought you might like to take an interest in this WikiProject.
}}

We look forward to welcoming you to the project! --[[User:Russavia|Russavia]] <sup>[[User talk:Russavia|Dialogue]] [[Special:Contributions/Russavia|Stalk me]]</sup> 08:10, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
</div>
:Thank you! I am not really interested in Putin and made only a few minor edits in his article, but I might wish to join the project later.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 12:27, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
::OK, I will try to collect some refs about Russian history: [http://www.svoboda.org/programs/SHEN/2005/SHEN.050805.asp], [http://www.novayagazeta.ru/data/?auth=6063&sb_a=1]. [[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 21:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_sockpuppets_of_Jacob_Peters]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Jacob_Peters]

== Award ==

{| style="border: 10px solid {{{border|blue}}}; background-color: {{{color|orange}}};"
|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | [[Image:Bezdog-3.jpg|50px]]
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | <span style="color:#0000f1">'''Ukrainian National Award "For Irreproachable Services - 3rd degree"’'''</span>
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | <span style="color:#0000f1">'''You are hereby awarded this Ukrainian National Award "For Irreproachable Services - 3rd" because you continue try to bring balance to Russian topics to Wikipedia. [[User:Mariah-Yulia|Mariah-Yulia]] ([[User talk:Mariah-Yulia|talk]]) 22:11, 9 October 2008 (UTC)'''

|}

:Thank you. No, I gave up.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 03:34, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::Your welcome, yes it seems to be hard to bring balance to Russian articles. I tried to balance the lead of [[Freedom of the press in Russia]] but after compromising with an other user the intro ended up looking bloody strange... [[User:Mariah-Yulia|Mariah-Yulia]] ([[User talk:Mariah-Yulia|talk]]) 21:40, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[Piotr Gavrilov]] ==

Hi! I've restored mention about Gavrilov ethnicity, surely it is notable. Another quetion is why his name is spelled Piotr, whereas the better spelling is Pyotr? --[[User:Untifler|Üñţïf̣ļëŗ]] (<small>see also:</small>[[User talk:Untifler|ә?]] [[Special:Contributions/Untifler|Ә!]]) 06:07, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:I am sick of "ethnicity" and ethnic wars. His "ethnicity" is completely irrelevant and unsourced.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 16:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

== Gorbachev forms a new party ==
This was on the news here not too long ago. I know Gorbachev has been in the opposition for quite a while, but how democratic is he really? Is he a better, or simply a very good politician? [[User:Grey Fox-9589|Grey Fox]] ([[User talk:Grey Fox-9589|talk]]) 14:11, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:Gorbachev wanted to save Soviet Union, not to create democracy. He had two good qualities as a politician: (1) he was a realist and was able to change state policies when realities on the ground required doing so, and (2) he did not want to be remembered as someone with blood on his hands, and therefore he did not use military forces when he could - with a few exceptions.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 17:05, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::I think I can add a little here. Yes, it's true he plans to form a new party called [[Independent Democratic Party of Russia]], but like the other parties he has formed it will most probably end up with minimal success. One reason for that is that while he still is popular in the west he is far from popular in Russia. And also it's hard to see him as a real opposition to Putin/Medvedev although he do support newspapers like [[Novaya Gazeta]] but at the same time has said he supports Putin's politics. [[User:Narking|Närking]] ([[User talk:Narking|talk]]) 17:47, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Right. The sponsoring of this party by businessman [[Alexander Lebedev]] is telling. Every businessmen in Russia who wants to support a political party (like Lebedev) asks a permission from the Kremlin (or more often receives a direct order from Kremlin to support certain party). This is the way of doing busines in Russia since the arrest of Khodorkovsky (he was the last who did not ask permission).[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 17:56, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

==[[Talk:Peter Cheremushkin]]==
Could a search in Russian find sources for his notability? PS. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Peter_Cheremushkin&diff=243783718&oldid=213027346] --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<font style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> talk </font>]]</span></sub> 18:23, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

: Maybe the try to deny his scholarship depends on this [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Meltyukhov]?? [[User:Elysander|Elysander]] ([[User talk:Elysander|talk]]) 23:41, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
::Yes, of course.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 00:21, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

==Request==
You seem to have access to The Mitrokhin Archive. If so, could you please check it for [[Urho Kekkonen]]'s KGB connection. I mean what kind of documents are their on him and what was his exact status. Thу WP article on him does not seem to say anything on te subject.[[User:Muscovite99|Muscovite99]] ([[User talk:Muscovite99|talk]]) 19:59, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Ханну Рауткаллио, который писал о Кекконене с очень критической точки зрения, и одна из книг называется: "Лаборатория Финляндия. Кекконен и КГБ. 1944-1962-й годы". Она вышла в 1996-м году. И там, ссылаясь на убежавшего из Хельсинки на Запад офицера КГБ Голицына, он прямо пишет, что Кекконен, якобы, был агентом КГБ под кличкой Кима, и что его завербовали в 1948-м году. В Финляндии вообще известно, что вокруг Кекконена, среди его близких друзей и сотрудников, было несколько завербованных КГБ людей, которые с ним работали. Кроме того, Кекконен - все его отношения, которые он поддерживал с Советским Союзом, он поддерживал их через резидентов КГБ, не через посла даже, не по дипломатической линии, а по так называемой партийной линии, они называли это партийной линией, но все делалось через агентов КГБ. [http://www.svoboda.org/programs/pn/2004/pn.022204.asp].

I read about him inserting certain phrases in his speeches - phrases that Soviet politburo wanted him to tell; and of course he met with a KGB representative in an apartment somewhere in Finland, but I do not remember where it was written - a book by [[Oleg Gordievsky]] or book by Klepikova [http://www.amazon.com/YURI-ANDROPOV-SECRET-PASSAGE-KREMLIN/dp/0709016301]. I could find anything in Mitrkhin books.[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 20:45, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Here it is. [[Oleg Gordievsky]] and [[Christopher Andrew]] (1999). ''KGB: The Inside Story of its intelligence operations from Lenin to Gorbachev'' (Russian language edition, Moscow, Centerpoligraph, ISBN 5-227-00437-4, page 575.). After describing [[Arne Treholt]] affair, they tell (my approximate translation): In 1981 the Center also lost its the most important agent in Scandinavia: ''"Finnish president [[Urho Kekkonen]] was retired. At this moment, the KGB had at least 160 fully employed agents and "contacts" in Finland, more than in all countries controlled by the 3rd Department of the [[First Chief Directorate]]."'' Later on, KGB tried to place another their "contact" (Akhti Karijalainen) to the presidential position, but failed, according to the book.

Keep in mind that another book (probably by Klepikova) tells the following. Kekkonen was very smart, and he did what the best for the Finland. He did almost nothing for the Soviet Union, but he received a lot of economic help and good trade contracts for his country in return. Besides, he made his country safe (another Soviet propaganda?). However, all Soviet people who escaped to Finland have been arrested by Finnish police and returned back to Moscow At least two of them were placed to [[Punitive psychiatry in the Soviet Union|psychuska]]. Their torture was described by [[David Satter]] in his "Age of delirium".[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Biophys#top|talk]]) 00:49, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Revision as of 16:02, 13 October 2008

File:Phillies Phanatic.jpg
The Phillie Phanatic makes an appearance during the Phillies-Tigers Spring Training game at Bright House Networks Field in Clearwater, Florida on March 11, 2007.

The Phillie Phanatic is the official mascot of the Philadelphia Phillies Major League Baseball team.

Profile

A fat furry green creature with a cylindrical beak containing a tongue that sticks out, he was created by Harrison/Erickson of New York City (now known as Acme Mascots), who have had ties with Jim Henson's Muppets and the team's marketing and promotions department during the winter after the 1977 season by a young executive named Dennis Lehman, who thought that the team needed a mascot similar to San Diego's Famous Chicken. Instead of a number on the back of his uniform shirt he wears a star.

The character is named for the fanatical fans of the team after an incident during the third game of the 1977 National League Championship Series played at Philadelphia's Veterans Stadium, in which fans drove Los Angeles Dodgers pitcher Burt Hooton into losing his composure after he complained to umpire Bob Engel over balls and strikes (he was removed from the game, but the Dodgers went on to win the game, and ultimately, the series). Another reason he was created, according to current owner and former team vice president Bill Giles was to bring more families to The Vet, as some of the more inebriated fans were involved in various fights when the team was doing well or poorly.[1] The Phanatic replaced a pair of siblings dressed in 18th century garb named "Philadelphia Phil and Philadelphia Phillis", who were in the team logo from 1976 through 1978, and were part of the team's "Home Run Spectacular" at The Vet from 1971 through 1979.

In his book Pouring Six Beers At A Time, Giles wrote of the worst decision of his life when it came to the creation of the Phanatic. The design would cost $5,200 (US) for both the costume and the copyright ownership, or $3,900 just for the costume with Harrison/Erickson retaining the copyright. Giles chose to just buy the costume. Five years later, when Giles and his group of investors bought the team from Ruly Carpenter, the franchise paid $250,000 to Harrison/Erickson for the copyright.

Debut

The Phanatic debuted on April 25, 1978 at The Vet when the Phils played the Chicago Cubs. Since then, he was given the title "baseball's best mascot" by sports analyst and former Phillies player Tim McCarver, who was the person who formally introduced the Phanatic on the "Captain Noah and His Magical Ark" show on WPVI-TV as he did promotional work for the team as a side from being the "designated catcher" for Steve Carlton. The Phanatic was originally portrayed by Dave Raymond, who was then working as an intern in the team's front office, for fifteen years, from 1978 to 1993. Raymond's father is retired college football hall of fame coach Harold "Tubby" Raymond at the University of Delaware. The elder Raymond was once quoted "I used to be known as the head football coach of the Fighting Blue Hens but now I will forever be known as the father of a green transvestite!" Also, the Phanatic was voted 'best mascot ever' by Sports Illustrated for Kids and Sports Illustrated.

Current Status

As of 2008, Tom Burgoyne serves as the Phanatic's "best friend". The Phanatic rides around on an ATV, being the first professional mascot to do so, on the artificial turf of The Vet, and now, with regular tires, on the grass at Citizens Bank Park. The Phillie Phanatic is one of the most popular and most easily recognized mascots in all of sports. He has a Japanese counterpart from the Hiroshima Carp named Slyly. In 2005, Raymond founded the Mascot Hall of Fame, and the Phanatic was inducted as a charter member of the Class of 2005. Burgoyne has written five children's books featuring the Phanatic that the team has published since 2003.

One week before the Phillies had their 2006 opener, the Phanatic was "dyed" red as part of the team's week-long promotion to "Paint the Town Red" as he was "dipped into a special paint" made by a team sponsor - MAB Paints - and was changed from green to red. He returned to his regular color in time for the season opener on April 3 of that year. This was repeated for the 2007 season, as he became red at a Philadelphia Fire Department station (with help from his backup, Matt Mailor in the green outfit) to help raise funds for smoke alarms in Philadelphia, and over $4,000 was raised. On April 2nd, he returned to his green hue in time for the opener. This was repeated, starting March 24th, 2008, as the theme (that season) of "Paint the Town Red Week" was volunteerism.

He appeared in the closing credits of the film Rocky Balboa (2006).

For activities leading up to the 2009 season opener against the Atlanta Braves on April 6th, there will be an assortment of 5 feet (1.5 m) tall fiberglass statues painted by artists with all monies raised going to Phillies' Charities.[2]

Trademark pranks and activities

  • He ritually taunts the visiting team, dancing provocatively in front of their dugout, and smashing or stomping on an object, such as a batting helmet, representing the team.
  • Standing on the roof of the Phillies dugout, he leads the crowd in attempts to "hex" the opposing pitcher, which led to the short-lived "Whammy Hand" used in the 2007 National League Division Series against the Colorado Rockies.
  • Occasionally he takes pitching practice in the bullpen. This is announced on the stadium video screen.
  • During pre-game practice, he has been known to steal fielders' gloves and throw them to fans.
  • The Phanatic had a favorite umpire in the late Eric Gregg, and would greet him enthusiastically on the field when Gregg was in charge.

Phun Phacts

From the Phillies Marketing Department.

Notable Events

Los Angeles Dodgers manager Tommy Lasorda famously assaulted the Phillie Phanatic during a nationally televised game after the Phanatic stomped on a life sized dummy donned with Lasorda's uniform.

The Phanatic also has the dubious distinction of being the most sued mascot in sports. Most notably, the Phillies had to pay a judgment of $2.5 million to a man at a paint store event when the Phanatic jumped the patron with a rough-house bear hug, sustaining him with serious back injuries.

The Phillie Phanatic's head disappeared from the Wachovia Center during the Phillies' Final Pieces charity sale and auction in 2004. Tom Burgoyne had taken off the costume for a break then found the head missing when he returned. One week later someone anonymously called a disc jockey, saying he found the head and that he would bring it to the radio station. Police arrested Bernard Bechtel, 37, of Whitehall Township, Lehigh County, after he brought the $3,000 head to the station. Bechtel was charged with felony theft.

See also

References

  1. ^ ""Phanatic! A Phanumentary"". Retrieved 2007-03-06. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |accessyear= ignored (|access-date= suggested) (help) A student film produced for the whyy.org web site in 2006
  2. ^ Phillies Community Relations web page

USAToday.com > Baseball

External links