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September 27

Spanish podcasts

Hi, I'm looking for good spanish podcasts or free audio. I'm looking for news and current affairs, debates and opinions, fiction, science fiction, science or your favourite. I haven't found much yet. Any help would be appreciated. ps. I posted a similar question on the spanish ref. desk. Thanks. 190.244.186.234 (talk) 04:41, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Science: Vanguardia de la Ciencia and El Sueño de Arquímedes by Ángel Rodríguez Lozano of RNE. Both, regrettably, now discontinued, but a large number of audio files are still available, see the links in the articles. A good science podcast was started by RNE's competitor Onda Cero when RNE stopped its two science podcasts. It's called "Partiendo de Cero", and is presented by Paco de Leon. It has a semi-official website where the audios are archived, follow this link. RNE has started a new science podcast, A hombros de Gigantes, which might also be of interest.
News and current affairs: No es un dia cualquiera by Pepa Fernandez is my reccomendation. Six hours every week-end.
You might also want to check out RNE's list of programs. There are audio files available for many of the programs. --NorwegianBlue^talk 22:11, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much. 190.244.186.234 (talk) 00:14, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Son of a bitch

What is the female equivalent of "son of a bitch"? 121.219.225.133 (talk) 10:50, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I have occasionally heard women called "son of a bitch", but I think the more usual female equivalent is simply "bitch". "Daughter of a bitch" would be either jocular or intended literally. —An gr 11:36, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Many people just use "bitch." GO-PCHS-NJROTC ^(Messages) 00:10, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Surely, "son of a bitch" is merely an abusive metaphor and does not have any precise or literal meaning, so that any equally derogatory expression which can be applied to the opposite sex would be a rough equivalent? Strawless (talk) 17:31, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

arabic translations

how do you say 'thank you' and 'sorry' in arabic? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.76.252.146 (talk) 15:02, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Shukran lak شكرا لك is the quasi-Classical Arabic way, I believe (technically laka when thanking a male and laki when thanking a female, but such short phrase-final i`rab vowels would not often be pronounced)... AnonMoos (talk) 16:00, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I learnt the short feminine form as 'shukran lik'. Steewi (talk) 12:34, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

That's going more toward colloquial; don't know that much about colloquial (and it can be very different between different regions). AnonMoos (talk) 17:08, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I learned it just as "shukran", without an accompanying "you". Adam Bishop (talk) 01:14, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Shukran by itself is most standard, understood throughout the Arab world. For sorry, it's "Muta assif" for a man speaking, and "Muta assifa" for a woman. --Xuxl (talk) 16:04, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I assume متعسف /متعسفة (stem V active participle of ع س ف) in Arabic script... AnonMoos (talk) 19:28, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Meaning of Ingleby Barwick

Ingleby Barwick is (new) settlement in North Yorkshire. Like many parts of the Danelaw, place names in the area are a melange of Anglo-Saxon and Norse. I've been trying to figure out the derivation of the name. At face value Ingle-by would appear to mean hearth-village (Ingle from the gaelic, by from norse). And wick generally means farm or hamlet. Our Barwick-in-Elmet article says that Barwick was called Berewit in the Domesday Book, but doesn't give a derivation. However the local council says (on this page) that "Ingleby is the old English word for Barley and Barwick means Fields, - Barley Fields". The Ingleby part of that seems very difficult to believe. The barley part seems to make sense, and I've read about a bunch of the other Barwicks there are in England and many seem to have been barley growing areas. Similarly our page on Berwick-upon-Tweed (where Berwick and Barwick seem very similar) does indeed suggest Berwick might mean "barley farm" or "barley field" (from baerwic). So is the local authority correct, or does the name infact mean (to my mind much more rationally) "hearth village barley field"? -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 17:54, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Oxford Dict. Placenames indicates that Ingleby is Old Scandinavian Englar + by: 'farmstead or village of the Englishman'; and Barwick is from OE berewic, meaning 'barley farm, outlying part of an estate'. Make of that what you will. Gwinva (talk) 19:38, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, that's very informative indeed. Moreover, I didn't know the ODoP existed (and now I see it's rather affordable). -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:41, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Is this Ekwall's Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Place-names or something else? —Tamfang (talk) 20:42, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I consulted A Dictionary of British Place-Names, edited by A.D.Mills & Adrian Room, Oxford University Press, 2nd Ed 1998. Apologies for using a shorthand title, which could be confused. Gwinva (talk) 00:17, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

AP Stylebook?

What dictionary does the AP Stylebook use as its authoritative source? For example, how would an American writer who follows its style spell Ojibwa/Ojibwe/Ojibway and what definition would the word have?--206.248.172.247 (talk) 20:43, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Is it Webster's New World College Dictionary 4th edition?--206.248.172.247 (talk) 20:54, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I just happen to have my copy of the AP Stylebook right here, so let me look ...

It says the sources used are:

First reference for spelling, style, usage and foreign geographic names: Webster's New World College Dictionary, 4th edition
Second reference for spelling, style and usage: Webster's Third New International Dictionary
Second reference for foreign geographic names: National Geographic Atlas of the World

The Stylebook also lists sources for things such as aircraft, ships, railroads, government issues, business names, etc. — Michael J 23:16, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

What type of logical argument is this?

Suppose that one answers the question "what is the probability of the x coordinate being greater than the y coordinate?" with this: "Change the names of the x and y axis so that the x axis is now the y axis and the y axis is now the y axis. Nothing changed except the names, so the probability of y being greater than x is the same as the probability of it being less than x. Therefore, both probabilities are 50%."

Another example might be answering the question "what is the probability of A sitting in front of B, if the seating arrangement is random?" with "if you switch the names of A and B, you'll see it's just as likely for A to sit in front of B as it is for B to sit in front of A. Therefore, the probabilities for both are 50%". --99.237.96.81 (talk) 21:13, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

That's the principle of indifference. Oddly enough it just came up on the Humanities desk too: Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities#Philisophical_term. -- BenRG (talk) 21:26, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

To a mathematician, it would be called "answering the wrong question". -- JackofOz (talk) 21:31, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I never heard the term "principle of indifference" in my math courses. If I was writing a proof I'd describe the result as true "by symmetry", i.e. the situation is symmetrical with respect to variable naming as the names could be interchanged without loss of generality. This was really a question for the Math reference desk; I suppose someone there might have yet another answer. --Anonymous, 03:20 UTC, September 28, 2008.

Sorry, you're right, the second one is just an argument by symmetry because we're told that the seating arrangement is (uniformly) random. But in the first one we aren't given a distribution on the points, so either there's not enough information (if it's a math problem) or it's a candidate for applying the principle of indifference (if it's a guessing game). -- BenRG (talk) 16:46, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

MLA citation for CJK names?

What's the proper MLA citation for names transliterated from a language where the surname usually comes first? For example, let's say I was citing an Akira Kurosawa film, but I was pretentious or using an original Japanese copy, so I have the name "黒澤明". Instead of reproducing the actual characters (because TNR doesn't support them for one), let's say I decide to transliterate it. Assuming I cite the surname last (John Smith), would I cite his name as Akira Kurosawa (with the surname last?) or Kurosawa Akira (as it is literally transliterated from Japenese). I understand the MLA Style Manual as some info. on this, but I don't have access to that right now. Deshi no Shi (talk) 23:23, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Why not Kurosawa, Akira? --Kjoonlee 03:21, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

In the specific case of Japanese names people always seem to write "Akira Kurosawa" or "Kurosawa, Akira", but I think Chinese names are sometimes written surname first without the comma. I have no idea about other languages. -- BenRG (talk) 16:38, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

September 28

<ng> in Old English

Hi, how would a scribe in Alfred the Great's Winchester pronounce <engel>? Roughly /ɛŋɡɛl/? --Kjoonlee 03:19, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Either that or /ɛndʒɛl/ depending on the word's exact phonological history. —An gr 05:36, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

By the way, in certain contexts, the "ng" of at least some dialects of Old English appears to have gone through a kind of palatal nasal (cf. Italian "gn") phase, to judge how "singed" came out as "seynd" in some Middle English dialects, while the past of meng "to mix" came out as Middle English "meind", "meynd", and the past of sprenge "to sprinkle came out as "spreynd" (similar also to "queint" for "quenched", "cleynt" for "clenched", etc.)... AnonMoos (talk) 17:35, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Synonym of required that starts with "A"

well... anything? Thanks, 76.187.43.14 (talk) 03:38, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

"Appropriate" could fit in certain contexts, although it's not really a synonym for "required", generally speaking. -- JackofOz (talk) 04:15, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

"Asked" in some contexts ? Try WordWeb, nifty application, basically an interface for WordNet, an english dictionary/thesaurus from Princeton University, plus web access to Wikipedia/Wiktionary/other relevant stuff. Equendil Talk 04:36, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

"Assumed" in a job advertisement is a bit of a weasely alternative for "required". As in "It is assumed that the applicant has extensive experience in whatever..." --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 12:26, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Comparitives in other languages

In English, I think, single-word comparatives always tend toward more — dry, drier, driest. Are there languages where the construction is toward less — dry, lessdry, leastdry? Thanks. Saintrain (talk) 13:18, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

English: little, less, least. If I am a little drunk, you are less intoxicated and the subsequent poster is the least wobbly, than B (you) is less drunk than I am and C (as yet unknown) is almost sober, so the series goes towards a decrease in the property X. PS: I know, that´s not what you actually meant in the query. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 14:38, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, that's my point. "little, less, least" is getting more and more "less" :-) Saintrain (talk) 14:50, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

So what you're looking for is a language in which the words for "wetter" and "wettest" are derived from the word for "dry"? —An gr 20:40, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

In the same scenario, A, B and C could be respectively little, more and most drunk. In that sense, the progression is towards less and less "little". -- JackofOz (talk) 20:50, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

In German, as the second poster above is well aware, the term "Wetter" may, indeed, refer to an increase in precipitation. On the other hand, "Wetter" may indicate a reduction in humidity and mean "drier". "Confusinger and confusinger", cried --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:54, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

If anybody doesn't understand what Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM means: the German term "Wetter" means weather. ;-) -- heuler06 (talk) 21:31, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Angr, yes. That's about it. Certainly the concepts of least wet, less wet, more wet and most wet are easily understood but English only has the words wetter and wettest. There's no wet-derived term for less wet etc. Are there other languages where there's a less wet but no more wet? Or both less wet and more wet? Saintrain (talk) 23:32, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

English also has -ish: dryish, dry, drier, driest. Bazza (talk) 12:45, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

"What" instead of "that"

In which dialect(s) of English do they say "what" instead of "that"? They made fun of it sometimes on Monty Python (ex. "It's people like you what cause unrest.") Thanks, Mike R (talk) 19:36, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

That could be any working-class British (at least Cockney and Glasgow patter). -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 19:47, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Not quite what you're asking, but some Australians say things like "I'm a better (singer, whatever) than what he is", rather than "... than he is". I don't know whether this is confined to Australia or not. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:57, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I've heard Stephen King say it in an interview. "...and came back to kill the guy what done him wrong." It may be more widespread than you think. Matt Deres (talk) 14:12, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

In Indian English, sometimes they'll use "what" instead of "that". For instance, "The information what I had given you", or "The conversation what we had yesterday". This could be a reflection of the British influence on India.

normal/good/fine/etc.

"How are you?" "Fine thanks." Here, "fine" is neutral, almost meaningless. (In American English sometimes the answer is "Great!", which sounds like hyperbole to ears more used to the the British variety.) But if the weather is fine, it is indeed a good day. If a patient is fine, it might be doctorspeak for something rather different from "good". COnversely, if you ask someone how they are in Russian, the answer is "Normalno" -- one's state of being doesn't usually rise above normalness. So my question is, what languages or dialects treat the baseline of being-ness as Good, and which ones treat it as Average?

Hmm... here in Berlin it's hard to tell, because in the local dialect of German the usual answer to "How are you?" is "Thank you." —An gr 20:38, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

In Romanian, the answer is "bine", which means good. Interesting question, by the way. 80.123.210.172 (talk) 20:45, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

In Swahili I gather that the usual answer is "Good (but...)" —Tamfang (talk) 21:52, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

The famous French "ça va" [sa va] must be mentionned. The dialogue is usually: "Ça va?" answer: "Ça va." Which very litterally means: "Is it going?" "It's going." But I would say that "bien" (good) is the unexpressed baseline. --Lgriot (talk) 00:14, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Heh. I say that, in English. Somebody asks me "How's it going?" and I answer with, "It's going." Corvus cornix_talk 18:54, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I say "bit by bit." —Tamfang (talk) 05:46, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

… or "so far so good." —Tamfang (talk) 02:03, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

In Chinese the usual greeting Ni hao ma? translates as "You good?", and IIRC the reply is usually "Good" (Hao). Similarly in Maori "Kei te pai koe?" (Are you good?) is frequently answered with "Kei te pai" (I am good). That one's a little more ambivalent, though, since "pai" can mean "well" as well as "good", and it also forms part of phrases meaning "not so good" like "tōna pai nei" (which means "so-so"). Grutness...wha? 00:29, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

September 29

Netherlands

What language is used in the Netherlands? GO-PCHS-NJROTC ^(Messages) 00:09, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Dutch language? Fribbler (talk) 00:14, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

GO-PCHS-NJROTC, you could have found this on your own by reading the wikipedia article Netherlands. People, as stated above, please do a minimum of effort on your own. --Lgriot (talk) 00:18, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, it is much easier to type "Netherlands" in the search box, as to type the whole question on the RF. Mr.K. (talk) 10:30, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Puzzle Clue

What phrase would these words form. They are....IT OM LTI MUL MU TA; MO NE NIA NOV —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.211.41.6 (talk) 00:12, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

They look like fragments of Latin words (omnia, multa, moneta, etc.), but it's hard to know how to solve a puzzle without knowing what kind of puzzle it is... AnonMoos (talk) 02:52, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

It should be "MULTI MULTA; NEMO OMNIA NOVIT". - Nunh-huh 03:43, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

That's good (the first sentence needs an implied NOVERUNT to be translated). AnonMoos (talk) 04:19, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I am interested in the meaning please? From my non-existent knowlegdge of Latin, I am guessing something like "Many more; No one is always new" or "No one knows everything"?? --Lgriot (talk) 07:13, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

"Many people [know] many things; no one knows everything". AnonMoos (talk) 11:15, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok so there is a root for "nova" which means "new", but another root for "novit" which means "to know". I guess it is an indoeuropean cognate to the English "know"? --Lgriot (talk) 23:41, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

There used to be a G there in pre-classical Latin, which survived classically when there were prefixes (as in, for example, "recognoscere", the root of the English "recognize"). As far as I remember it is related to Greek words like "gnomon", and English "know" (and German "kennen" etc etc). Adam Bishop (talk) 02:20, 30 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.210.170.49 (talk)

Right, novit "knows" and novus "new" are from two different Indo-European roots, *ĝneh₃- and *newo-, and both are cognate with their respective English glosses. —An gr 05:25, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Terminology

Can a strait properly be called a watercourse?

Thanks, Wanderer57 (talk) 00:46, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I would say no, it's all about the flow - see Watercourse. Mikenorton (talk) 10:44, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Proto-indo-European spoken out loud.

when I complete my task of taking over the World, the reconstructed Proto-Indo-European language will be the official language of The Empire since several billion people are at least somewhat familiar with one of its descendants (primarily English). But here's the thing: I can't find any source online where I can learn PIE, and what's more, I can't find any recorded samples of it (I would be tickled pink if I could find a recording of Schleicher's fable so I could hear what PIE really sounded like). Is the reconstruction so incomplete that no one can say with any certainty what PIE really sounded like? If anyone knows where I could find some recordings of spoken Proto-Indo-European, I'll probably cede a large portion of Antarctica to you when my global conquest is complete.

Thanks! 63.245.144.77 (talk) 00:52, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

There are many sound in PIE which have been identified without knowing how they were pronounced. So yes, PIE studies is mostly a written subject matter. --Lgriot (talk) 01:27, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

When you say "Schleicher's fable", do you mean the original mid-19th-century version (which certainly does not accurately represent Indo-European) or the revised late 20th-century version (which must remain somewhat speculative due to the nature of the subject)? We possess much knowledge concerning Indo-European, but there are still strong obstacles to being able to reconstruct PIE in such detail and correctness that a PIE speaker would understand what we were saying. For one thing, we simply aren't able to reconstruct in detail -- with any reliability or certainty -- as far back as the period when Indo-European was one somewhat unified language spoken over a relatively small area. And subsequent to this earliest period, Indo European spent a number of centuries as a dialect continuum, where influences spread back and forth between related nearby languages (though the dialects spoken by geographically non-adjacent language communities would often have been quite distinct from each other). When reconstructing backwards, it's very difficult to know if the various features that we've reconstructed ever all existed together at the same time, or in the same dialect. Even if by some miracle every single individual feature of the Indo-European language were to be reconstructed correctly, it still might be the case that we were putting together these language features into a reconstructed proto-language in a way that resulted in a hideous anachronistic and anti-geographical mish-mash, jumbling together things belonging to widely separated historical periods and dialects in the dialect continuum...

By the way, Indo-European wasn't the "original" language or the "best" language, or the language of any mystic ideology now accessible to us. For a basic look at some of the probable realistic factors in the early spread of Indo-European, see chapter 15 of The Third Chimpanzee by Jared Diamond... AnonMoos (talk) 03:46, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

You may be interested in Modern Indo-European. —An gr 04:25, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Ah, there we go. That's exactly what I was looking for! Thanks! 63.245.144.77 (talk) 04:57, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

As long as you're aware that it's rather unlikely that actual historical Proto-Indo-European speakers would have been able to understand "Modern Indo-European" at all easily. Such a language is an endearingly off-the-wall concept, but some of the motivations for its creation appear to have come from misunderstandings of historical and linguistic facts... AnonMoos (talk) 11:24, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Hoi Polloi

Given the term hoi polloi means the masses, is there a corresponding Greek term used in the English language meaning the élite? Thanks. seresin ( ¡? ) 05:04, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Hoi oligoi ("the few") is the usual opposite of hoi polloi ("the many"). It isn't used often in English, though. —An gr 05:11, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Except in oligarchy. kwami (talk) 12:42, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

As a side note, I've heard many a talk show radio host use "hoi polloi" to mean "the elite". I guess because it sort of sounds like "hoity toity"? Drives me nuts, regardless. Dgcopter (talk) 19:54, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Death suffix

What root/suffix/prefix, meaning: All/Everything, can I add to "-cide" or other suffix meaning: Death?

—Preceding unsigned comment added by L3tt3rz (talk • contribs) 08:01, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't think such a word exists in common usage, but I would use either omnicide or polycide -- Ferkelparade π 08:03, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Pancide? -- JackofOz (talk) 08:11, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

-cide is Latin, isn't it? So omni- is preferable to poly- or pan- which are Greek. —Tamfang (talk) 08:27, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

(ec) "-cide" doesn't exactly means "death", it means "killing". "The killing of everything" would presumably be "omnicide". (I took the liberty of changing the title of this section since there is already a section called "Question!" on this page.) —An gr 08:28, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Panthanasia? [1] Bazza (talk) 12:39, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Are you talking about the death of everything, or the death of all people? If the latter, you could say "Democide". Corvus cornix_talk 18:56, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm talking about the Death of All-Living: Man, Woman & Child w/o Discrimination... Would "Anthropocide" work? —Preceding unsigned comment added by L3tt3rz (talk • contribs) 20:52, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Since we know there's only one human race, could "genocide" be made to fit the bill these days? -- JackofOz (talk) 22:23, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Humanicide gets me a number of ghits, with varying definitions. It could fit the bill. Steewi (talk) 03:34, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

-cide words usually refer to killing one or more other people. In this case, it would have to include suicide because if the killer's left alive, then not all humanity has been wiped out. (Of course, it would only be matter of time before he dies ...). -- JackofOz (talk) 20:40, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Latin translation

Quid aliud est mulier nisi amiticiæ inimica

Hi, what would the above mean? I can recognize some words/roots, but I have no idea. Tried searching but got no satisfactory results. --Kjoonlee 09:02, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

"What else is a woman but the enemy of friendship?" The penultimate word should be "amicitiae". Googling suggests it's from the Malleus Maleficarum. —An gr 09:11, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Considering the purpose of Malleus, I'm reminded of Catherine Carswell's observation, "It wasn't a woman who betrayed Jesus with a kiss." --- OtherDave (talk) 12:32, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

It appears to be the late-15th-century scholarly Latinate way of saying "bros before hos"... AnonMoos (talk) 14:23, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you :) --Kjoonlee 04:36, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

requesition letter for an atm card

Do you have a question? The title is not enough. (I have removed your example image, which seemed to serve no purpose.) Gwinva (talk) 09:14, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Writing style forum

What is the best forum in the internet for writing style? Is there any forum out there dedicated to the analysis of texts? Mr.K. (talk) 11:18, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Political term

How would you classify someone whose views lie between "moderate" and "liberal"? (since I'm looking for a word, I think the language desk is the right place to post this...)128.239.177.28 (talk) 13:07, 29 September 2008 (UTC)SneezingPanda

If not just "moderate liberal", then "center-left" is all I can think of. AnonMoos (talk) 13:17, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

(ec) By whose definition of "liberal"? In Europe, political parties called "Liberal" tend to be right-of-center, relatively conservative on fiscal issues and relatively progressive on social issues. In the U.S., "liberal" has somehow come to mean "left-wing". If you're thinking of the U.S. defintion (and since your IP address is associated with the US I suspect you are), I guess I'd say "left of center". —An gr 13:20, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

The term "moderate liberal" works, too. The Jade Knight (talk) 07:48, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

what age

how old do you think this kid was who said "a diamond is a TYPE of pearl"? At what age could you have made a mistake like that?

This is an online version of a Reference desk. Your question is inappropriate. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 14:38, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

You would expect that by their teens children would know that a diamond differs from a pearl. I guess you assume this is Common knowledge? It seems pretty basic information to me, and i'm not sure why someone would equate a diamond and pearl as enough alike for one to be a 'type' of them - presumably they've never seen either? Perhaps they were confused? Either way you could obviously make the mistake at any age, but you'd expect that as age increases the likelihood of making the mistake decreases - though i guess past a certain age it could start to go back up as dementia and senility start to ravage once brilliant minds. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 15:13, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

what does "by their teens" mean to you? Like, probably by 12? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.120.111.254 (talk) 21:13, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Not usually. Teens start at 13 (thirteen) in my world. What the kid may have been thinking of is that pearls and diamonds have more than one thing in common. They're both produced as the result of natural processes that take a considerable time (a lot more with diamonds, but pearls don't happen overnight either); they're both forms of jewellery; they're often worn together; they're both very valuable; you'd buy them both in the same shop; and they both often appear in the same song lyrics. I wouldn't judge them too harshly for thinking laterally, even if they did express themselves unscientifically. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:21, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Jack, I just said that (see below). And, besides, in some languages, teens start at 'ten', such as Japanese, Chinese, and Korean. We don't know where the OP is from.--ChokinBako (talk) 21:31, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

???? Not to mention ????. That sounds like you're chiding me for repeating something you already said. Let the chronological record speak for itself, I say. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:40, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, sorry, I only noticed it after I posted. I must not have noticed you had posted in the first place. Very unlike me, I must say! Sincere apologies.--ChokinBako (talk) 01:28, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, ChokinBako. Apology accepted. Your second point is interesting, though. In English. we define "teenager" and "being in one's teens" by the words that happen to end in -teen (13 through 19). Is there an equivalent to "teenager" etc in those other languages? If a Korean "teenager" aged 10, say, comes to the USA, is it a problem for them to understand that they've suddenly dropped back to being a "child", and won't resume being a teenager until they get to 13? -- JackofOz (talk) 01:56, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

It depends how educated they would be. There's no a priori reason to know the difference between various forms of jewelry. As to the nature of the error—it would require more information to know. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 00:49, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I never thought of that. It is probably made even more complicated by the fact that the Japanese sometimes use the English word teen (ティーン) to mean 'teen', but in the Japanese sense of the word (i.e. 10 and older). The original Japanese word 'juudai' (十代) means 'the age of tens', and there is no separate word for anyone who is 13 or older. I suppose it would annoy/confuse them that they are no longer 'teen', even though they are still 'juudai'. I love exploring word equivalency/lack thereof! Let's do colours next!--ChokinBako (talk) 16:44, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I would not scold the kid for saying something like that. It would be like saying a 'zebra is a type of horse'. Diamonds and pearls are both used as jewelry and are both made from minerals, albeit in completely different ways and both are subsets of the term 'jewelry', but there is some logic logic in it, even though it is mistaken logic. I am not defending the kid, though, because, by that logic, one could say a pig is a type of horse, as they are both animals.--ChokinBako (talk) 19:21, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

A better analogy would be horse and camel: related not by nature but by use. —Tamfang (talk) 05:50, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah, like husband and wife, perhaps?--ChokinBako (talk) 21:59, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Request

I need help. If somebody has free time (and it won't be difficult for him) I want to ask him to read my article Sergei Bodrov, Jr. and tell me if the translation is normal or poor. Somebody wrote on article's discussion page that the language is extremely vague. I don't understand if he meant the indicated sentence or the whole article. Thanks.--Slav9ln (talk) 14:36, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

He meant the sentence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.171.56.13 (talk) 17:30, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

The article in its entirety has a few odd phrases and inaccurate words that I and probably others will correct. The final sentence in the "schooling" paragraph requires rewording but I can't understand what is meant by the present sentence. Richard Avery (talk) 18:36, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for help!!--Slav9ln (talk) 15:37, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

"Cheri" in English

A Hot Chocolate song is called "Cheri Babe". Now "chéri" is a French word, used both as a noun ("darling") and an adjective ("beloved"), but in both cases for males only. Now in what way and what meaning exactly is the word used in English? And is its pronounciation in any way different to "sherry"? --KnightMove (talk) 20:59, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

It's just a girls name: [2]. A variant of Cherie. Pronunciation is as "Sherry". Fribbler (talk) 21:02, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Thx, but is it usual to use a name in a construction like this? "Sally babe", "Emily babe"...? --KnightMove (talk) 07:24, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

"Usual" is relative. It is not unheard of to use "-babe" (or "-baby") as a way of turning a name into a diminutive in the US. It's not terribly common, but few diminuitives including the name are in English. The Jade Knight (talk) 08:04, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

See, for example, "Sherry Baby."]

what is the meaning of the turkish word balim in english?

what is the meaning of the turkish word balim in english? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.118.77.70 (talk) 21:06, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

"My honey" in an affectionate way. Fribbler (talk) 21:13, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

It's actually "balım" with a dotless i, though. —An gr 21:17, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

That's right. Delayed my dictionary search, that did. Fribbler (talk) 21:18, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't vowel harmony require undotting? —Tamfang (talk) 17:07, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and because this is a root with a suffix (bal "honey" + ım "my"), vowel harmony applies. But if this had been a single morpheme, it could have been balim with a dotted I, since dotted I is allowed to appear within the same root as back vowels (e.g. İstanbul). —An gr 05:48, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

whats your interpretation of this quote?

“Greatness lies not in being strong, but in the right using of strength…” - Henry Ward Beecher —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.183.233.251 (talk) 21:07, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Do your own homework? I mean, honestly, just read it over, it's not impossible to make sense of. Consider whether the US intervention in Iraq has been a display of American greatness or lack thereof, as a concrete example. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 00:47, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

September 30

"upwards of"

I'm wondering about the expression "upwards of".

For example, does "upwards of fifty" mean - less than but close to fifty - more than fifty - somewhere in the vicinity of fifty?

Thanks, Wanderer57 (talk) 01:40, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

At least fifty, but probably more. (Not as much as 60, of course, else you'd say "pushing 60", or similar .) Think of it as "above". Gwinva (talk) 02:16, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Anyone know this Kanji?

Does anyone know this Kanji? 鑑. In my document, it is used as '[verb]ことに鑑み' and comes at the end of a clause. Cheers!--ChokinBako (talk) 12:08, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

My kanji dictionary says かんがみる, meaning "in view of [a situation]". TomorrowTime (talk) 12:25, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Cheers, that makes perfect sense!--ChokinBako (talk) 12:35, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Name of a report?

If I'm making a report to my manager to assess the current situation of a service and making suggestions on what changes and options are possible to improve the quality and efficiency of the service and how to reconfigure and optimize the workflow or the way phone lines are set up, what is that called? an "assessment and suggestion report"? surely there must be a standard term for this kind of research and recommendations document. in the end it's the manager who receives the report who can decide what he wants to do, but now he is fully informed of his options.--Sonjaaa (talk) 16:21, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Name the report something logical to what you are doing "Optimisation of Phone Line to Improve Service Quality and Efficiency" would seem to be alright. Something such as Project_management#Project management artifacts might be a place to consider more official sounding titles. The problem is that every company will incorporate different 'tools' and so will have different report naming conventions. ny156uk (talk) 18:52, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Italian translation

Hy there, could someone translate me this Italian sentence: "NESSUNO COME NOI"? Much obliged. Flamarande (talk) 17:02, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I think it means "no one like us". —An gr 18:49, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I think so too. —Tamfang (talk) 17:08, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Mama and papa

Some articles said the similarity between "mama" and "papa" in many less related languages is "false cognate". Are there exist some opposite linguistic theories or evidences that support other viewpoints? I am thinking about that maybe some of these "mama"s are real cognate because recent researches suggest that all the people have same origin. luuva (talk) 20:09, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

If you haven't already, check out mama_and_papa. A question very similar to this came up on this Language Desk a month or so ago. You might find more information in the Archives.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 20:37, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

USA v UK abbreviations

Why is it that Americans abbreviate every thing with initials, whereas Brits use a 'shortened' form. e.g. Video Cassette Recorder, US = VCR, UK video Television, US = TV, UK = telly Automatic teller machine, US = ATM, UK = hole in the wall Improvised Explosive Devise, US = IED, UK = bomb

Thanks, Colin, a Brit living in the US —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.170.128.65 (talk) 20:46, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

We stopped saying 'hole in the wall' when people started stealing them, and they were, literally, a hole in the wall! What era did you come from?! --ChokinBako (talk) 23:02, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm 28 from the UK. I say "cash machine". The term "hole in the wall" is now a trademark of Barclays Bank! doktorb _words^deeds 23:07, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

We also do use the Lloyds TSB copyrighted term 'Cashpoint' quite a bit as it's easier to say that Barclays' copyrighted 'hole-in-the-wall'. Nanonic (talk) 23:08, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Terms like that are uncopyrightable. I think you mean they are trademarks. Algebraist 09:38, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Because British and American English are different dialects. No, seriously, that is all the answer there is. We say 'lorry' but Americans don't, what we call a 'mobile' Americans usually call a 'cellphone', and so on. Because they're different dialects. It may be the case that Americans use more initialisms, than we do, but I'm not convinced. I don't think many Americans would talk about their 'GP', for example.

Incidentally, I'm dubious about both 'telly' and 'hole in the wall'. I don't deny that they are used, but not in the same way as 'TV' and 'ATM': I don't think I would say 'telly' except jocularly, and I normally say 'cashpoint' or 'cash machine' rather than 'hole in the wall'. Come to think of it, one reason for 'ATM' being less readily taken up in the UK may be that the word 'teller' is very much less common that in the US. --ColinFine (talk) 23:15, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Meh, these things vary of course. I'd say 'telly' as easily as 'TV', but 'hole in the wall' definitely has a jocular edge for me - only used in certain moods and circumstances. Maybe 10 or so years ago I would have considered it the normal word for the people I heard say it. Would never use ATM though (except as abbrev. for at the moment). Cash machine would seem more every day usage. 130.88.52.36 (talk) 18:08, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I expect British soldiers serving in Iraq would use the term IED; IED is a specific type of bomb. All IEDs are bombs, but not all boms are IED's. Calling an IED a bomb is the equivalent of calling a sturgeon a fish. The Jade Knight (talk) 03:53, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

"no no" ( babyish expression..)

To say that soemething is a "no, no " is quite common in current English.I don't like it , especially outside its pediatric context , as it sounds infantile and trivialising. I *believe* it originated from Dr Benjamin Spock, but I have been able to find an origin, Can anyone help ? Feroshki (talk) 23:32, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

The OED gives a 1942 citation. The noun form appears in L. V. Berrey and M. Van den Bark's The American Thesaurus of Slang. In the 1953 edition, "no-no" appears on page 297. Spock's book Baby and Child Care was not published until 1946. Michael Slone (talk) 00:58, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

It's not a "no, no"; it's a no-no. While the phrase is obviously older, it was popularized in the 1960s by Rowan and Martin's Laugh-In. --Anonymous, 05:25 UTC, October 1, 2008.

Before Laugh-In, there was "that's a Bozo no-no".... I see our article on Bozo lacks the Bozo no-no, "Cram it, Clownie!" story, for which, see here- Nunh-huh 18:26, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

October 1

Bach title

I've tripped over an arrangement of a Bach composition, subtitled in German "Wenn Meine Trubsal als mit Ketten". While I can translate each individual word adequately, I can't put them together into a coherent phrase. Trubsal should be Trübsal, distress; Ketten are chains, but how would you render than into, say, a cantata title in English?

(If my distress was all in chains? Were my distress like chains?)

--DaHorsesMouth (talk) 03:57, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

This gives the following translation of the Aria:

Wenn meine Trübsal als mit Ketten

When my sorrow as if with chains

Ein Unglück an dem andern hält,

joins one misfortune to another,

So wird mich doch mein Heil erretten,

then will my saviour rescue me,

Daß alles plötzlich von mir fällt.

so that everything suddenly falls away from me.

Wie bald erscheint des Trostes Morgen

How soon appears a morning of consolation

Auf diese Nacht der Not und Sorgen!

after the affliction and worry of this night! -- JackofOz (talk) 04:06, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah, Jack beat me to it. I was just going to say you need the next phrase too. Grsz ^talk 04:08, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

The translation has a couple of (relatively minor) issues, namely:

So wird mich doch mein Heil erretten: "Heil" is not the saviour but that which the saviour (German "Heiland") brings; I'd probably translate it with "salvation" or "grace".
Wie bald erscheint des Trostes Morgen: there's a genitive that's not correctly rendered in the English sentence; "Trostes Morgen" should be "consolation's morning".
Auf diese Nacht der Not und Sorgen: this is also not quite correctly translated, it should be "this night of affliction and worry".

And the first word is open for interpretation as it's a bit ambiguous in German; a (temporal) "when" certainly works and makes sense in the context of the cantata, but a case could also be made for a (conditional) "if" which would change the tone of the passage slightly -- Ferkelparade π 08:16, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Exposition to alcohol causes...

Is it appropriate to use the word "exposition" in place of "exposure"? --Seans Potato Business 09:50, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

No. Why would it be? Algebraist 09:55, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

It would be if the definition of 'exposition' aligned with the intended concept, obviously. I have a lecturer who insisted that it was appropriate and that the word is used in this way in scientific literature on the subject of epidemiology. ----Seans Potato Business 11:12, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Google scholar seems to agree with him, unfortunately. What a horrible usage. Algebraist 09:32, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Only if you tell your troubles to the bottle. —Tamfang (talk) 17:11, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

even more probable to be true

How can you express the idea that if A is true, B is even more probable to be true. (i.e. there is even more evidence to B). Mr.K. (talk) 10:38, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

"A makes B more likely/probable."? Zain Ebrahim (talk) 10:47, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Maybe correlation? Not quite a perfect match to the described scenario but sort of similar. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 11:06, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Bayes' theorem is perhaps a more closely related concept than correlation, in my opinion (though as you're asking on the Language ref. desk page you're probably not after mathematical concepts anyway).--85.158.137.195 (talk) 12:03, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure if this is a general question or if you have a specific example in mind. In general, one might say: "A implies B". In particular cases, there are many ways to express the idea depending on how strongly A and B are linked. Wanderer57 (talk) 12:27, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

A forteriori? Provided A does not imply B, but there are stronger reasons to believe B is true.80.58.205.37 (talk) 15:42, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

There's no such word, AFAIK. Did you mean a fortiori? — Emil J. 15:50, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

yes, I meant a fortiori. 80.58.205.37 (talk) 17:43, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Scottish

Why is there a Scots wikipedia? Surely the language has to be the first language of a group of people to be at all useful; and seeing as in Scotland the first language is Scottish English; which all business education and broadcasts etc. are conducted in; who does this benefit? Te only people that can read it can read the English (probably better, as they probably only learnt the semi-archaic Scots for a bit of fun) and the English one has far more content. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.16.62.154 (talk) 12:28, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

There is no "first language" criterion for a Wikipedia to exist; indeed there is an Esperanto Wikipedia. A Wikipedia in a given language exists purely when there is enough interest (and then enough activity) for one to exist. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 12:32, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

My personal opinion on this has long been that one of the things Wikipedia isn't is Asterix; therefore Wikipedias should exist only in languages used as the medium of instruction somewhere, rather than every language and dialect someone thinks it would be neato to have a Wikipedia in. I don't know whether Scots fulfills that criterion though, and anyway it's only my personal opinion, not Wikimedia policy. —An gr 12:46, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Scots and Esperanto both have native speakers. And seeing as Scots is a recognized language with a fair number of speakers, a Wikipedia has been created in it, and has done fairly well. One of the reasons to have Wikipedias in native languages is because people sometimes prefer to use their own language over a more common one. For example, though there are no monolingual speakers of Welsh or Norman that I'm aware of, individuals often feel that their own language is just as valuable or useful as the dominant language. Additionally, different cultures give different priorities. Articles which have been deleted here for being non-notbale on the English Wikipedia (such as Diex aie) have been decidedly kept on other language Wikipedias where they are considered notable to that culture. The Jade Knight (talk) 04:10, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the people over at Meta.Wikimedia.org have pretty much adopted a "no new dead-language Wikipedias" policy, which means that there will probably be no further Wikis like Latin, Classical Chinese, and Old English. The Klingon Wikipedia and the Tokipona Wikipedia were shut down 2-3 years ago... AnonMoos (talk) 13:01, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Sweet suffering succotash, this notion is enough to make me wish I knew enough Latin to start a online encyclopedia. How does the GNU general public license restrain me from doing so? (Answer: it doesn't.) The policy listed above deals with new language subdomains of existing projects on Wikimedia (who, fortunately, don't seem to view themselves as the Galactic Emperor). The esteemed Finlay, above, shows good sense: if a bunch of people want to have an online encyclopedia in Scots or Latin on Klingon, so what? If they succeed, they succeed; if they fail, they fail. Some folks need more important things to worry about, like whether Andy Murray is a British tennis player or a Scottish one. The world wonders. --- OtherDave (talk) 15:13, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

There's a Klingon Wikia, but there isn't a Klingon Wikipedia anymore. There is, however, an established Latin Wikipedia (just like I already said above). AnonMoos (talk) 15:21, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Right you are; my misreading. The point's the same, though: whatcha gonna do if someone starts an online encyclopedia in, say, Elvish? Send Jimbo Wales to beat them up? --- OtherDave (talk) 19:37, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

They're welcome to do so, but not under a subdomain of wikipedia.org... AnonMoos (talk) 21:01, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I remember they tested out Quenya in the Incubator but I don't think it took off. bibliomaniac 1 5 21:33, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

OtherDave, I have no issue with someone starting a website of any form, in whatever language they like, but I just thought the cost incurred by dead language wikipedias may be wasted funds, as no-one benefits from it. If they do it in their own domain they can do what they want. But this is an organization that depends on charity to make ends meet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.16.62.154 (talk) 00:38, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

For Latin, at least, it is fun, and good practise, and we get to communicate with other Latinists from all over the world in a common language. The English Wikipedia doesn't really benefit anyone in any meaningful way either; what could be more of a waste of time than contributing to a encyclopedia that is essentially unusable, since by its own definition it can never be complete, and welcomes all sorts of meaningless crap from anyone with spare time and a computer? But here we are anyway. Adam Bishop (talk) 04:53, 2 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.210.170.49 (talk)

Oh, what a naughty thing to say, Adam. You speak as if WP were here solely for the benefit of the editors. What about our primary clients, the readers? That's who I always keep in mind when I'm writing or editing articles. There's a reason why WP has become one of the top 5 most visited sites in the world, and only a small percentage of visits are from editors. -- JackofOz (talk) 05:03, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Unidentified symbol

This question comes by way of Ryan North, of Dinosaur Comics: Does anyone know if there are any languages that have a symbol that resembles this? -- MacAddct1984 ^{(talk  contribs)} 15:58, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I've never seen it, but if there were a language spoken only by cricketers, it might in a cryptic sort of way represent the word for a sticky wicket (see sticky wicket for what I'm talking about). -- JackofOz (talk) 16:17, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

You could ask over at omniglot.com. The Jade Knight (talk) 04:17, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

It looks rather like a UK road sign you might see on a three lane motorway, meaning that the left hand lane is blocked somewhere ahead. 163.1.148.158 (talk) 13:29, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Journalist with foreign accent?

Is it my impression or the CNN journalist here does have a foreign accent? Is it possible to be a journalist not being a native speaker?80.58.205.37 (talk) 17:42, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

What? Is there some sort of requirement that people only take jobs in the country they were raised in or something? 70.90.171.153 (talk) 17:55, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

The journalist in question is named as Felipe Barral; according to this page, he is "assignment editor/producer for CNN en Español". I guess he can occasionally be called upon to do reports for CNN in English if it's simpler than sending a native speaker to a place where he already is. In general, broadcast journalists will be native speakers; historically, even those with regional accents were rarely allowed on the air (hence "BBC English" and General American#General American in the media). However, if a reporter has a particular unusual speciality, that may outweigh the disadvantage of an accent. In particular, foreign correspondents for a news organ are often natives of the country reported on rather than of the news organ's home market. CNN International, being global, has lots of nonnative English speakers. jnestorius^(talk) 19:31, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Utterly unthinkable. What do those foureen mutts imagine, appearing on CNN like that?

Dear IP Adress, you, sir, have some serious issues that need to be dealt with. Or maybe you just have some growing up to do, that's possible, too. TomorrowTime (talk) 22:56, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Naughty naughty; feeding the trolls. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.16.62.154 (talk) 01:11, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I am not a troll and not all edits from my IP are my edits. It was a serious question and it was answered seriously. Consider that where I am, there are only native speakers in journalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.58.205.37 (talk) 07:58, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

If you are in Spain, as me and as your IP indicates, I must say that many journalists here have foreign accents. It depends on what you call foreign of course. They are clearly native speakers of the Latin-American Spanish. However, I suppose that in professions deeply dependable from language skills, like journalism, non-native speakers will be only a minority of the working force. Mr.K. (talk) 08:14, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Although she was born in London, Christiane Amanpour was raised in Iran, and has a slight accent. She is a well-respected reporter. And are you saying that there are no native-Basque speakers on Spanish television? Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 21:14, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I was not saying there are no native Basque speakers. I just said non-natives are a small minority, even smaller when compared with the general population. I suppose there are some native-Basque speakers and native-Catalan speakers, however I would also call them native-Spanish speakers since they are bilingual.Mr.K. (talk) 08:13, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, Sylvia Poggioli, though American, is NPR's Rome-based European correspondant, and she has a distinctivly Italian accent. Interesting, since she was raised New England. I have always admired her reporting, but her accent seems a bit of an affectation. Likewise, their China correspondant Rob Gifford is distinctly British. While still fairly entrenched in most media, it seems the general attitudes towards the accents of our news presenters is changing slightly... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:34, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Foreign correspondents in Spanish TV also have sometimes a slight accent. Although I believe they are native speakers who lived overseas for a long time. Mr.K. (talk) 08:13, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Please translate the following?

The words SVAZ PRAEL USA JIHOZAPADNI ALLIANCE appear on a lapel pin showing the Statue of Liberty. What does it mean and what language is it? ForgetergalForgetergal (talk) 20:45, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps Czech. Grsz ^talk 21:26, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Svaz=Association Jihozápadní=Southwest Grsz ^talk 21:29, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

It's Czech. It should read "Svaz přátel USA, jihozápadní aliance", which means "The Union of Friends of the USA, Southwest Alliance". It is a name of an NGO [3][4]. — Emil J. 13:05, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

October 2

english language

importance of language in administration. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.219.254.32 (talk) 00:24, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I concur (after all what else can I do with a statement) but please see English grammar and note that all english sentences should have a verb and a subject. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.16.62.154 (talk) 00:26, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Really? Crikey. :) --Kjoonlee 01:33, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

But I do agree with one thing: you can't just write a noun phrase and a prepositional phrase and call it a sentence. --Kjoonlee 01:36, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

~~I'm adding this in case the person who started this section is confused by these notes. Nobody can answer your comment because it is very vague. Wanderer57 (talk) 01:46, 2 October 2008 (UTC)~~

Of course we can answer. 41.219: read the articles about importance, English, language and administration for that purpose. Mr.K. (talk) 08:17, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Translation

I'd appreciate if you could tell me what language this is / give me a translation:

blya izvilni

9 teb9 sproi/| 4e eto takoic

ya videl tebya no ne dumai

ehto you rus

70.162.28.222 (talk) 02:23, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

This is Russian put into a transliteration for computing purposes. I can't read it well enough for a translation. A better transcription might be something like: Byla izvilni. Ya tebya sproil(?) che eto takoits. Ya videl tebya no ne dumaj. Ehto you rus. была извилный. я тебя спроил ... ето такоиц. я видел тебя но не думай. Ето ю рус. I don't speak Russion, so that will be full of mistakes.

The only bit I can guess is: It was ???. I ???ed you ... this ... I saw you at home. ??? ??? ???. Steewi (talk) 03:08, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

(ec) If it's all one piece of text, it seems to be Russian, although some of the transliterations are very wonky. The only line that is indisputably Russian is "ya videl tebya no ne dumai" (I saw you but do not think ..).

blya izvilni - probably "byla izvilini" (there were bends/twists)

9 teb9 sproi/| 4e eto takoic - I think this should be "ya tebya sprosil <something> eto takoe" (I asked you <?> what it is)

ehto you rus - probably "chto" (what/that), but "you rus" has stumped me.

Putting it together: There were twists I asked you <?> <?> what it was I saw you but do not think that <?> <?>.

Best I can do with the material, sorry. Where did this come from, if you don't mind my asking? -- JackofOz (talk) 03:29, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Two statements

Which is preferable?

"Your goals can easily be achieved." or "Your goals can be achieved easily."

Am I correct in saying that they are both acceptable and mean the same thing, but the first one is a better choice?

--The Dark Side (talk) 03:36, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I think this is also possible: You goals can be easily achieved. Some English adverbs are very flexible about where they can occur. --Kjoonlee 04:12, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

IMO, yes. The Jade Knight (talk) 04:17, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

All three are grammatically correct but personally the first one sounds more natural. "Your goals can easily be achieved." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.25.96.244 (talk) 08:04, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

While possibly equivalent in meaning, there may be a slight difference in emphasis. The second has a bit more emphasis on the "easily", and may be preferred in contexts where the achievement of goals was not in doubt, but the difficulty of that achievement was in question (perhaps implicitly). e.g. if the lead-in question was "Is it possible to do X?", I'd go with "Your goals can easily be achieved.", but if the lead-in question was "How hard is it to do X?", I'd probably go with "Your goals can be achieved easily." -- 128.104.112.147 (talk) 16:14, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Power to seniority - one word?

Resolved

Hello,

Sorry I don't like the "is there one word" questions usually, and now I find myself asking one of those question! I am looking for a word with Latin roots or Greek roots, or both (in case someone coined it already), that would describe the power structure in Japanese traditional companies, who tend to give the promotions purely on seniority (that is how long you have been in the company and/or how old you are) rather than give promotions to those who deserve it (which I would call a meritocracy). None of my attempts (senioricracy, senatocracy, senilocracy, senocracy) seem to work. Thanks in advance. --Lgriot (talk) 04:01, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Cronyism? Grsz ^talk 04:22, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I was looking for a "-cracy" or "-archy" word (democracy: power to the people; theocracy: power to god, well rather, the religion; Monarchy: power to the one; oligarchy: power to a few), but I didn't know cryonism, very interesting. It is not exactly the concept I am thinking of, though. --Lgriot (talk) 04:35, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

There's always gerontocracy. The Jade Knight (talk) 04:45, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, it is what I was looking for, but now that I remember the word, it seems that I can't use it, because it sounds like the power is in the elderly, not just the "older than you" type of people. Thanks anyway. --Lgriot (talk) 07:57, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Is seniorate a word in English? If it is, this could be an answer to Lgriot's question. If not, then this article should be probably moved to a different title. A Google search for this word (restricted to English) returns relatively few hits, most of them in the context of Polish or Czech history, so it might be just a calque from the Polish seniorat or the Czech seniorát. pl:Seniorat and cz:Seniorát are both interwiki-linked to Agnatic seniority, which is a little narrower term. — Kpalion^(talk) 17:45, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, with English, anything can become a word if it catches on. I've never heard "seniorate," though. In the U.S., you'll hear "the seniority system" often, though that's not the single word you're looking for. Could you use something like "a kind of corporate gerontocracy," extending the metaphor to show you mean that status results from time with the organization (rather than just age)? --- OtherDave (talk) 18:41, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

War with oneself

Hello,

Can you help me? What phrase can be used in order to express a man's war with himself (when he fights against his bad qualities)?--Slav9ln (talk) 05:28, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

In English, perhaps self-improvement or self-help. In Islam, this is one of the main meanings of jihad. Itsmejudith (talk) 07:44, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

You are your own worst enemy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.25.96.244 (talk) 08:02, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Fighting his demons? - X201 (talk) 08:34, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps "inner struggle"; or, more extremely, "inner conflict". jnestorius^(talk) 08:41, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Psychomachia? Deor (talk) 12:09, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for help!!--Slav9ln (talk) 17:40, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

A study about English

Please help me describe the relation between online English study and English. please elaborate the question. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Griffplll (talk • contribs) 09:01, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I am afraid I do not understand the question, could you please say more? Strawless (talk) 17:28, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Maybe the second "English" refers to a subject at school. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 10:55, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Is there an equivalent to "teenager" etc in those other languages?

I'm starting a new section here to answer a question JackofOz asked in the What age section of September 29. There is an equivalent in Polish. It's nastolatek (feminine: nastolatka), a calque from English, derived from -naście, a suffix appearing in all numbers from 11 (jedenaście) to 19 (dziewiętnaście); plus lata, "years"; plus -ek/-ka, a diminutive suffix. And as you might guess, "teenagers" in Poland are aged 11–19. I don't know of equivalents in any other langauges. Like Jack, I'd be glad to learn, if there are more. — Kpalion^(talk) 09:02, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

In German, you just use Teenager. The German ending is -zehn and it runs from 13 to 19 (11 and 12 being elf and zwölf), but since -teen is not a morpheme of German, I don't know to what extent it's associated with ages ending in -zehn in English. Perhaps one of our native German speakers can say whether 11- and 12-year-olds are considered Teenager in German. (Aside: perhaps more common in German than Teenager is Jugendlicher "youthful one", which I think spans from 14 to 20.) Irish uses the word déagóir for "teenager", which is calqued on English using the word déag which forms the numbers from 11 to 19 (11 = a haon déag, 12 = a dó dhéag, ..., 19 = a naoi déag), but again I can't say whether 11- and 12-year-olds are considered déagóirí or not, though logically (as in Polish), they could be. —An gr 09:15, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

In Dutch there is "tiener". As in English and German, the ending "-tien" runs from 13 ("dertien") to 19 ("negentien"). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.171.56.13 (talk) 09:38, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

French has "ado" from adolescent, since there is no common ending for the -teen numbers. I'm not sure what ages that covers though. Adam Bishop (talk) 12:19, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

In Finnish we have a common suffix for numbers from 11 to 19, but it's not one that would be easily adapted. Instead we have borrowed "teen-aged" from English, mangling the first part into "teini" and translating the rest. The resulting word "teini-ikäinen" is in common use as an adjective, and we use the short form "teini" for the noun "teenager". There's also "teini-ikä", literally "teen age", for "teens". 84.239.160.166 (talk) 20:31, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I realize I'm late here, but in case someone is still reading, the word teini is not in fact mangled English but twice mangled Greek: diakonos begat Swedish djäkne which in the 16th century begat Finnish teini, originally a junior priest but later a student. The contemporary use of teini as the exact equivalent of teen is no more than a few decades old. (The same thing holds for some other pairs of contemporary Finnish and English colloquialisms as well, eg. dorka and dork, where the Finnish dorka is originally from Russian durak and used to mean a crazy person, but now means an uncool one.--Rallette (talk) 07:46, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

There's also German "Backfisch" (never understood where that one comes from...) AnonMoos (talk) 21:56, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd still like to know how 11-year old Polish nastolatki feel when they discover they're now younger than teenagers in English-speaking countries. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:39, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Czech uses mládež, literally "(a) youth." -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:11, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

"have all but"

"A month ago, Mr. Frome realized that the hobbyists, most of them men over 50 with six-figure incomes, had all but stopped buying the planes and replacement parts — including a new electronic device, developed by Fromeco, that logs flight data. Sales plummeted from a $1 million annual rate to half that level, and they are still falling."

From the New York Times. What does "had all but stopped" means here? From the context, I understand that they have stopped buying the planes. However, I thought that "have all but + V" meant "have all except + V". So the sentence in question would mean: they have not stopped buying.

Other examples are: "We had all but forgotten you, Prince" (=> Not forgotten) "Hope of finding Fossett alive all but gone". (=>there is still hope).

Mr.K. (talk) 09:32, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

"All but" used to confuse me too, it actually means "almost" or "nearly". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.171.56.13 (talk) 09:43, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, 'all but' is even in the dictionary. I was parsing it as 'have all' + 'but' not 'have' + 'all but'.Mr.K. (talk) 09:59, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

omonimus

in article R3B the word "omonimus" is used. theres nothing i can find on the net which defines it (tho some articles use it) and i just checked my compact oed and nada. any ideas? a misspelling perhaps? thanks Mission Fleg (talk) 10:51, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

All I can think of is "homonymous", but that doesn't make sense in the context of that article. —An gr 11:22, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Eponymous? -- BenRG (talk) 11:33, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Ominous? The other two suggestions may work but would be redundant. So I don't know if you want to attribute poor style choices or poor writing to the author.--droptone (talk) 11:44, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I guess Monoimus would be right out...

-- AnonMoos (talk) 19:06, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd say it's a misspelling for "eponymous", but I'd also say the phrase in which it occurs doesn't need to exist at all. It reads as if the LAND detection setup includes a detector called LAND. It's possible to have an array of detectors, known collectively as LAND, and also call one of the individual detectors LAND. But that seems a very confusing way of naming things. Or "omonimus" might be technical jargon for a particular type of detector, of which LAND (the second one) is an example. But I'd expect it to be linked or footnoted or otherwise explained, if that's the case. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:29, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I think that Angr has the word right -- "homonymous" -- and Jack has the reason right, although neither of them believes it! The sentence is trying to say that the word LAND has two meanings, one referring to the individual neutron detectors and another referring to the whole setup containing them. This is not really very confusing -- it's perfectly commonplace to refer to a device in terms of its most important part, or to name it by using its most important part adjectivally -- and hardly needs calling attention to. --Anonymous, 03:13 UTC, October 3, 2008.

ok, thanks for the chuckles :) and the info, i'll change it to homonymous and ask the author. which, come to think of it, is probably what i should have done to start with! cheers Mission Fleg (talk) 08:36, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Latin jokes

On the printing block used by T&A Constable Ltd / Edinburgh University Press is written "Firma Pererrat Aquas Et Constabilitur Eundo". What is this in English? Supposedly it contains three jokes or puns. Any guesses as to what they might be please? Kittybrewster ☎ 11:46, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I guess it means "[something] firm wanders through water and is made stable by moving". I don't see the jokes, aside from the contradictions. Adam Bishop (talk) 12:16, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, there's the pun involving English firm (="company"), for one. And constabilitur as a pun on "Constable" in the firm's name. Deor (talk) 13:28, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I may be really overthinking this one, but there's also the point that this motto would scan as a hexameter if one read constabilitur with a false quantity in the penult (i.e., as constabilītur), in which case the second half of the verse would sound like "Constable itur eundo"—"Constable is moved by moving." Deor (talk) 02:21, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Six sigma projects

i have a question posted for one of the most important thing to me at present regarding six sigma projects, i have had no response whatsoever, is there a way i can expedite the process or reach to the poople of similar interests,would serve a great purposeVikram79 (talk) 18:39, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

What is the question? --Sean 20:26, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Titular character

My understanding of the word "titular" is as explained at titular ruler, a person who has a title but little or none of the powers that that title implies. However, I’m seeing more and more examples of its use to mean the title role in a play, movie or opera. Such as:

Inspired by an earlier musical version of the same story by Ken Hill, The Phantom of the Opera opened at Her Majesty's Theatre in London on 9 October 1986, starring Michael Crawford as the titular character, Sarah Brightman as Christine, and Steve Barton as Raoul.

Has this become a recognised usage, or is likely to become so over time? Why did it ever change from the perfectly fine "in the title role", which has had a long history?

I see that Titular character currently redirects to "Title role", which is useful but, like any redirect, it has its downside. People who think that "titular character" is the correct way of describing a title role may not become aware that it’s inappropriate. Until they do (if they ever do), they’ll just keep on writing "titular character" in square brackets and they’ll never be the wiser unless they happen to click on the link they’ve created and suddenly notice that they’re not at the "Titular character" page but at the "Title role" page. Comments, anyone? -- JackofOz (talk) 23:37, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

The answer to your question "Has this become a recognized usage?" appears to be yes; at least, it's recognized in Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, which gives as sense 3 of titular "of, relating to, or constituting a title <the ~ hero of the play>". I'll check what the OED has to say when I get home. Deor (talk) 23:59, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I see this question has come up before, in 2006 - see [5] @ "Titular versus Eponymous". The view then seemed to be as I described above. Has Merriam-Webster upgraded since then? -- JackofOz (talk) 00:15, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

The copy of M-W I was looking at was the eleventh edition (2003). Now that I've made my way home to my beloved books, I see that the OED (second edition) records the same sense, even specifying as an example "titular character, title rôle." The illustrative quotation containing the expression "titular character" is from the London Daily News of 7 June 1889: "Madame Gargano in the titular character appeared to far better advantage than in 'Il Barbiere'." Make of that what you will. Deor (talk) 01:05, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

In a related use, the Roman Catholic church has titular bishops. In general, these are bishops not in charge of an actual diocese -- e.g., a coadjutor biship, an auxiliary bishop, a papal nuncio. They are bishop (in the sense of pastor) in name only, since there's no real diocese. Cardinal Angelo Sodano, Vatican secretary of state under John Paul II, was titular bishop of Albano, Italy, which also has a diocesan bishop, Cardinal Agostino Vallini. --- OtherDave (talk) 01:03, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

The SARA corpus gives more "in name only" uses than "eponymous", but a good few of the latter. There is some potential for ambiguity, I suppose, though not in the SARA examples. Where the same root [title, interest] produces distinct derivatives [entitled/titled/titular, uninterested/disinterested] people tend to confuse them if the difference in meaning is not obvious from the form of the words. It won't do any good to complain about how a useful distinction is being lost: if it were that useful, people wouldn't get confused. And in many cases, the distinction was never clearcut to begin with. jnestorius^(talk) 01:41, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

October 3

Punctuation question

I have an idea for a "humorous T-Shirt"

I was doing things before they were cool before "doing things before they were cool" was cool. I know there should be a comma (or maybe two) in there, but I don't know where! Any help on punctuating my future-shirt? —Preceding unsigned comment added by NetLace (talk • contribs) 12:54, 3 October 2008

Nothing wrong with leaving the punctuation as-is, as far as I can see. As a T-shirt, it might be a bit long but you can probably experiment with a few designs to test that. Confusing Manifestation(Say hi!) 03:01, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I see no case for any commas, but can I suggest the wording be:

I was doing cool things before it was cool to do things before "doing things before they were cool" was cool.

You could even dispense with the quotes:

I was doing cool things before it was cool to do things before doing things before they were cool was cool. -- JackofOz (talk) 03:05, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, Jack---I was secretly hoping you would answer. I stalk these refdesks endlessly but am too timid to ever answer a question myself. *sigh* Your wit and patience, not to mention knowledge, always impresses me.

I must say though, you've completely mystified me. I have a firm grasp on "buffalo buffalo..." but if I'm to wear what you suggest on a shirt, I'd definitely need to understand it better. I don't need a sentence diagram, but maybe you could break it down for me? I apologize if I'm being terribly dense. NetLace (talk) 03:18, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

No worries, and thanks for the compliment. OK, how do I go about this?

Today, if you do a cool thing, that's a cool thing to do.

If you did one of those things before it was generally recognised as a cool thing to do, you could say "I was doing cool things before they were cool". OK so far?

There was a time when it became a cool thing in itself to have done cool things before doing cool things generally became considered a cool thing to do. Your claim would then be "I was doing cool things before <doing things before they were cool> was cool".

But what you're claiming, as I understand it, is that even before that, you were already doing things that mightn't have been recognised then as cool, but are now recognised as cool. So now you're saying "I was doing cool things before <it was cool to do things before <<doing things before they were cool>> was cool>".

Does that make sense? I may have omitted some steps in the logic. I must say it's a strange experience to be explaining someone else's motto for them, but there you go. I really like this, and do you mind if I borrow it? I'll give you full credit, but a secret kickback wouldn't go astray. :) -- JackofOz (talk) 03:54, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo anyone?!? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:22, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

to Jayron--I already mentioned that above!

to Jack--

By all means borrow it but I must say, it isn't my motto. I make shirts that tickle my fancy, another example is: Gazpacho is a dish best served cold.

I fear that you've added a second layer to the "before it was cool." I'm not actually saying that I'm doing "things that are cool." I'm playing with the notion that far too many of my peers take pride in having liked a band/author/movie before it became mainstream. So I'm one-upping them by saying that the entire CONCEPT of "liking something before it was cool" is now passé, and frankly I was doing it before it became a mainstream thing to do. Perhaps I'll go with:

I was liking things before they became cool before liking things before they became cool became cool. I really don't need a comma there?!207.172.71.243 (talk) 04:31, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

OK. That's fine. You use your version, and I'll lay claim to mine. -- JackofOz (talk) 04:59, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Jesus in Shakespeare

Is Jesus the only person to be referenced in every Shakespeare play? --Ye Olde Luke (talk) 05:19, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

What makes you think that Jesus is mentioned in all his plays? A quick search through Julius Caesar didn't turn up any references (and any references that did exist would be very out of place). Or do you mean indirect references? Even if that's what you're saying in every play I'd guess you're reading too deep into them. (By the way, this should have been posted on the Humanities desk.) -Elmer Clark (talk) 06:39, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Style: "first and only debate" vs. "only debate"

Is the first form better style? How do you call this structure, when you say something that is anyway unnecessary? Other example: "needless to say, ...."Mr.K. (talk) 11:43, 3 October 2008 (UTC)