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September 29

Airplane security

When did the US outlaw carrying loaded guns on airplanes? --67.185.172.158 (talk) 06:18, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Airplane security in general was stepped up in the 1970s, don't know about gun laws specifically though. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 01:07, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Early Seventies seems about right from what I've read, er, somewhere or other. —Tamfang (talk) 05:45, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Personally I'm astonished that loaded guns were ever allowed on an aeroplane. Ah, those were innocent times. --Richardrj talk email 07:28, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, they were also very different times in terms of how much it cost to ride on an aeroplane—when something is a luxury good you don't often worry about criminal abuse. (And I don't think anybody thought of airplanes as weapons for quite some time—the reforms in the 1970s were about hijacking and landing them in other countries and things like that, not ramming them into buildings.) --98.217.8.46 (talk) 13:29, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
For Norwegian domestic flights, innocense ended sometime in 2005. See last sentence in this article. Not a handgun, but still... Jørgen (talk) 10:54, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Before hijackings became common, there were no xray machines or scanners, so it is likely in the 1940's, 1950's or 1960's one could have carried a gun onto a plane without detection, even if there was a rule against it, as long as it was concealed and the bulge didn't show. It was only after the D. B. Cooper hijacking and hijackings by Palestinian terrorists that the Federal Aviation Authority in December 1972 ordered U.S. airlines to search all passengers and their bags. [1] Edison (talk) 04:18, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

UK Redundancy Entitlement

If I continue to work in full-time employment after I reach the "normal" UK retirement age of 65, will this affect any redundancy entitlement? i.e. If I am a UK male aged 67 working full time for a small business which closes (I have continuous service of 10 years, salary £250 per week), what redundancy payments (if any) can I expect? Thanks sparkl!sm hey! 08:25, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry but we can't give that kind of advice here. Speak to your local Citizens Advice Bureau, or the personnel manager of your current employer, if they have one. --Richardrj talk email 08:27, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I endorse the advice to consult the CAB, but unless rules have changed in the last 10 years, redundancy entitlements tend to peak about 5 years before state retirement age and then taper off to nothing at retirement age. Do remember that state retirement ages are being increased in stages from 60 to 65 for women, then in stages over the next few decades from 65 to 68 for all. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 21:29, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Disappearance of libraries

Are libraries tending to disappear due to digital media? Mr.K. (talk) 15:57, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't recall seeing any concrete indication that libraries are disappearing, but I do see a lot of libraries adapting to serve more information digitally rather than on paper. -- Beland (talk) 18:09, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In my experience, this does have the effect of restricting the amount of material available to visitors of university libraries, since the digital material is often accessible only by people with a university login code. I worry that the net effect of digital libraries is that certain information will become less readily available to the general public. —Kevin Myers 00:34, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I visited one a short time ago, and it was still quite easy to see. Edison (talk) 01:24, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In the US, due to budget crises, funding of libraries is decreasing, so they aren't disappearing, but their hours of operation are being severely cut back. Corvus cornixtalk 19:49, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cheap bailout

Isn't the bailout rather cheap, comparing with the cost of the Iraq war?Mr.K. (talk) 16:02, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The proposed bailout costs less than the Iraq war. Whether they can be meaningfully compared is another question entirely, and one not suited to the reference desk. — Lomn 16:07, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In the same vein, the new Woodrow Wilson bridge near Washington D.C. costs less than an Enterprise-class aircraft carrier. But the bridge isn't well suited to military aircraft, while the carrier isn't long enough to accommodate much auto traffic. --- OtherDave (talk) 10:46, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have found that appendectomiesin the U.S. can be cheaper [2] than new cars, [3] , but they are likewise not interchangeable in utility. Edison (talk) 04:13, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Lets just say that they're both ridiculously expensive. 90.235.17.83 (talk) 15:27, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What were women's role in the Southern Colonies of British Colonial Americas.

Besides the usual tasks that women did during that time. What different roles did women in the Southern Colonies have compared to women in the New England and Middle Colonies? What impacts did they make while performing their roles?

Sign: Glen Shepard 9/29/2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Glenshepard (talk • contribs) 16:16, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A real life reference librarian would not scold a questioner who had homework to do, but would suggest references, such as Wikipedia articles and other reliable sources where the needed information can be found. Please do not respond to questions with bitey non-answers. Some information, if not a simple answer to the questions, can be found at European colonization of the Americas , Outside Wikipedia there is Colonial America 1600-1775 K12 Resources . The preparation of food in colonial times is discussed at[4] A source on the role of women in colonial America is [5]. Women often cared for children in colonial America, and info on this can be found in a thesis at [6]. A visual presentation of material on women in colonial America is found at [7]. The roles of mothers and fathers in colonial America is covered at [8] , and you may find this extremely useful. [9] is a good discussion of love and marriage in colonial America. Edison (talk) 19:52, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
When researching your answer, keep in mind that the question doesn't seem to be limited to white women, which should broaden the scope of your reading. —Kevin Myers 00:26, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Thank you for the links, the info provided helped me a lot. Almost every article I found on the topic always gave a dole view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Glenshepard (talk • contribs) 13:12, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How did members of congress vote on the bailout today?

I would like to see who voted for and against. Tried to find a tally of the vote online but couldn't. Can anyone help? --Halcatalyst (talk) 19:31, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The House members' votes are listed and broken down in various ways here, among other places. Deor (talk) 20:10, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jewish Dietary Law Regarding the Consumption of Insects

The Kashrut article states that "The consumption of insects involves between three and six violations of Torah law;[37] so, according to Jewish Law, it is a greater sin than the consumption of pork." I would like to know what those violations of Torah law are. Thanks. --Nanonanette (talk) 21:24, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

613 Mitzvot? AnonMoos (talk) 09:28, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

These violations of Torah law can be found in the following places: Leviticus chapter 11 verses 10, 41, 42, 43, 44, Deuteronomy chapter 14 verses 10, 19. Simonschaim (talk) 10:49, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

American military history, 1943

This is from the article Dinah Shore:

"To support the troops overseas, who liked her singing, she participated in USO tours to Europe. She met a young actor ready to go into military service named George Montgomery. They married on December 3, 1943. Despite their marriage, Montgomery soon went into service."

The last sentence is odd IMO. It seems to suggest that Montgomery had a choice in the matter. Is it likely that he had? Opinion please. Wanderer57 (talk) 21:47, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nope. Marital status wasn't one of the draft exemptions. Actual candidates for avoiding service could include fatherhood or war-essential occupations in addition to the well-known 4-F physical disqualification. — Lomn 21:54, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The article George Montgomery seems to imply that he wasn't drafted—rather, that he volunteered (before his marriage) for service in the Army Air Corps. Deor (talk) 21:59, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Anthropocide?"

I'm trying to make a new word that means The Death of All-Man, Woman & Child w/o Discrimination. I'm not looking for Genocide, Ethnocide, Gendercide or other relative word(s) but the Death of All-Humans...something like Dehumanization. —Preceding unsigned comment added by L3tt3rz (talk • contribs) 22:07, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is really a continuation of your question of the Language desk, and not a new question. In any case, it's better asked on the Language desk than here. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:29, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]


September 30

Nikkei

Is the Japanese newspaper Nikkei a generally trustworthy news source?118.90.31.41 (talk) 04:32, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Judging by its massive readership, long-history and the fact is sold international with translations...yes I would suggest it is a reliable news-source, or at least about as reliable as any other major international business news-source 194.221.133.226 (talk) 11:13, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it is one of the best sources in Japan (or Asia, for that matter). DOR (HK) (talk) 01:41, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Selling sheep in ancient Israel

I remember hearing at one point that the inscription above Jesus on the cross was abbreviated into the Hebrew name of God. Googling confirmed this but I also heard that is was common practice when selling a sheep to hang an inscription of the father’s name from its neck. The purpose of this was too provide proof of good stock, etc. Google has not turned anything up so I am not sure if that was an exaggeration. I would like to know if it's true and, if possible, a link to an article or page covering this information. Thanks! Joshua42425 (talk) 13:05, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First off, Jesus was killed by Romans under Roman legal procedures -- the native Jewish authorities in Judea (the Jerusalem high priest, Sanhedrin, etc.) were not allowed by the Romans to inflict the death penalty, and crucifixion as a penalty was forbidden under Jewish religious law. Second, INRI is not the "Hebrew name of God", and any proposal as to what the "Hebrew" version of that text may have been is only speculation ("Hebrew" could well have actually meant "Aramaic", anyway). AnonMoos (talk) 17:03, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Common sense would also indicate that the practice of advertising the name of the (sheep's) father would have very little point; in Biblical times flocks of sheep were allowed to get on with their procreative business as they pleased, so it would normally have been impossible to determine the father of a given sheep. Plus sheep were not usually given names in Ancient Israel. So all in all this is exceptionally unlikely. DJ Clayworth (talk) 19:52, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Excepting, of course, the famous racing sheep. —Tamfang (talk) 06:10, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Legal principle

Is there a legal principle which was used to justify the acquisition of sovereignty of territorial gains (after a war)? This confuses me – if no such principle exists, plenty of islands nowadays could be described as 'occupied', at least in theory. I'm sure there must be some legal term (along the lines of Terra nullius) which was used by imperial powers and the like. Thanks, RedCoat10 (talk) 16:02, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think you mean Cession. That is the "giving" of one piece of your territory to another country as part of a treaty. As opposed to Annexation where you just take it.Fribbler (talk) 16:33, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What happens though if the territory is conquered but not formally ceded through a treaty? Is there no historic legal concept which formalises the conquest? RedCoat10 (talk) 16:51, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Uti Possidetis... AnonMoos (talk) 16:53, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ah that's it, many thanks! RedCoat10 (talk) 17:01, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Also, if one country occupies territory of another with no serious objections from the country with the territory, the claim can pass through prescription. Grsztalk 17:40, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sometimes the invading power just installs a puppet government which signs whatever is put in front of them, perhaps in gratitude for "liberation," perhaps from fear, perhaps to have a strong friend to defend them, perhaps from bribes, perhaps to get a greater (but incomplete) degree of freedom, at the cost of military bases or other benefits to the conquering power. Sometimes there is a plebescite. See the histories of Hawaii and Cuba. See aso Right of conquest, a principle of international law until the early 20th century; Client state ; Colonialism ; Imperialism ; Neocolonialism. Edison (talk) 19:10, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The things you learn on Wikipedia, and especially the RefDesks! I have just added "Category:International law" to Uti Possidetis; it was unfindable otherwise. BrainyBabe (talk) 19:57, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well as far as I know there are deeds which say 'by right of conquest' on them. Nothing much more is needed really. Dmcq (talk) 10:54, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, there's a special Islamic legal term for property rights acquired by conquest -- عنوة or عنوةً `anwatan, literally "by force") which might be worthy of some discussion on Wikipedia (it only seems to be mentioned glancingly in Islamic law in Constantinople, and in older versions of the Azerbaijan_(Iran) article). AnonMoos (talk) 11:17, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Famous French saints in Ireland

Is there a list of famous French saints remembered for their work in Ireland? x42bn6 Talk Mess 18:37, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's a category of French saints, and of Irish saints. Do they have to be saints, or just missionaries/churchmen/monks? Gwinva (talk) 18:51, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Saints. I was just wondering if there were any obvious ones. x42bn6 Talk Mess 23:27, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And you might also look for Irish or Scottish saints remembered for their work in Europe, likely a larger group. --- OtherDave (talk) 01:56, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, see Hiberno-Scottish mission for those ones. Adam Bishop (talk) 06:06, 1 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.210.170.49 (talk) [reply]

stone cave

does any one know the history of the stone cave at the intersection of manor st. and rt. 69 in waterbury ct —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.24.241 (talk) 19:30, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is that Waterbury, Connecticut rather than Waterbury Court, East Snodbury, Berkshire? DJ Clayworth (talk) 19:46, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Try leaving a note at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Connecticut as well as Talk:Waterbury, Connecticut. Better yet, try asking the Waterbury Library. BrainyBabe (talk) 20:00, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

States giving electoral votes to national popular winner

I read somewhere (on Wikipedia I think) that two states (they might have been NJ and MD) gave their electoral votes to the candidate who got the most popular votes nationwide. I assume this was only proposed because I couldn't find it again. Where might I have read this? Thanks, Reywas92Talk 19:56, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not in the US, so I may have missed it, but I've never heard of that. I believe there are two states that give electoral votes according to proportional representation in their state (or some other way of splitting the votes) rather than giving all the votes to the candidate with a plurality, is that what you're thinking of? --Tango (talk) 20:30, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like what Reywas is talking about is correct, here's a story on it. (I have to admit this is rather surprising to me.) It looks like it only goes into effect if a majority of states (by electoral majority, enough to equal 270) agree to it. AlexiusHoratius 20:57, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting. Trying to get a majority of states to go do it is very different from unilaterally doing it yourself, though. --Tango (talk) 21:03, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
True, although I think, speaking very much in general, the EC is less popular in larger states (larger states are under-represented), thus (maybe) making it easier for this thing to attain the majority needed. However, I'm not sure how this will play out in really partisan states, (consider Utah having granted its votes to Clinton or Massachusetts voting for Bush, I doubt that would have been very popular with the locals). In any case, like you said, it will be interesting to see what happens. AlexiusHoratius 21:19, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
National Popular Vote Interstate Compact -- AnonMoos (talk) 22:14, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the link; I take back what I said about it maybe being passed in many of the larger states, it looks like California, Florida, and Pennsylvania have all rejected it in some way or another. AlexiusHoratius 22:27, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The article says it's pending in California - it was vetoed by the governor once, but it's been passed by the two houses again, so it's back before the governor. --Tango (talk) 00:06, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ah yes, I must have just been looking at the top entry. AlexiusHoratius 00:31, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

State vs. federal waters

I'm trying to understand the United States offshore drilling debate, and I was confused about mention of state bans on drilling versus federal bans. Do the states have control over economic exploitation in certain waters and the federal government in other waters (which are presumably what are described in territorial waters? I would have assumed that the states have no jurisdiction over ocean waters unless it's explicitly granted to them by the federal government. Has that been done already for some things, or do the states have inherent powers in that area? -- Beland (talk) 21:08, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Some of this is explained in Tidelands. In the United States, most states own the rights, and regulate, out to three miles from the shore (in Florida and Texas it is 10.5 miles), and beyond that, out to where international waters begin, the federal government can do what it wants. This was the result of acts passed in 1953. It's a pretty big deal in California where I live, for some of the most productive oil fields, and some of the least explored, are just beyond that three-mile boundary. Antandrus (talk) 04:31, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not salt water and so far of only minor interest to drillers (ranked 18th in production among states[10]), but Michigan claims all bottomlands in its waters of the Great Lakes, which in some places, are more than 50 miles offshore. Both state and federal laws restrict oil exploration on the Great Lakes. Rmhermen (talk) 20:26, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Obstacles for woman in todays society.

I would like to know what you woman and men think. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.67.29.179 (talk) 23:44, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The ref desk doesn't really do opinions. Someone can probably find you some relevant studies to read if you're interested. --Tango (talk) 00:04, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See glass ceiling, and search in google for books/articles with a focus on femminism (I can't spell that word) 194.221.133.226 (talk) 08:30, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It differs around the world. If you want an international view, don't forget issues like female genital mutilation. The rights of lesbians are to be considered. You might also want to consider rights to maternity leave, and childcare. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:09, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
division of labour might also be of interest. Steewi (talk) 03:15, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]


October 1

How many black African immigrants in India and China?

Does anyone know how many black african immigrants are living in India and Mainland China today? 72.136.110.93 (talk) 01:46, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Demographics of India suggests that the national census in India does not recognise racial or ethnic groups, which seems to suggest that perhaps it would be hard to find out stats on this. Also look at Demographics of the People's Republic of China#Ethnic groups for China. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 08:28, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe these links will help: The African Diaspora of the Indian Sub-continent and African diaspora of China. Regards--Shahab (talk) 09:39, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Blacks in South America

Why are there more blacks in countries like Brazil and Venezuela than in countries like Chile, Argentina and Bolivia? Of course, the colonizers brought less black into these colonies, but why did they do that?Mr.K. (talk) 09:30, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In the 16th century, the oceanic slave trade tended to be associated with Caribbean regions which had become depopulated due to disease and overworking the native Indian populations there. In the 17th century, the oceanic slave trade was strongly associated with sugar-cane plantations. Neither factor was very relevant for the last three countries you mentioned (which did not have tropical climates). AnonMoos (talk) 10:48, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with that answer and just would like to add some article links: History of slavery, Slavery in the Spanish New World colonies, Atlantic slave trade and History of sugar. Rmhermen (talk) 13:16, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, also because the main agriculture of Brazil and Venuzuela was the rather labor-intensive sugar cane... which is not the case for southern and western South America. Same deal for North America as well; the Southeastern U.S. had a climate that owed itself to rice and cotton farming, which was an economy that owed itself to extensive slave economy, for the simple fact that these sorts of plantation farms requires lots of cheap labor to be economical. Slavery, while legal in the North until the early 19th century, tended to be on the order of "luxury slaves" i.e. household domestics, and never represented a significant portion of the economic labor force like in the south. Basically, to boil it down, just like in North America, the economies of South and Western South America did not owe itself to huge importation of slaves as it did to Northeastern S. America... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:08, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Economics research

I am finishing a Science honours degree majoring in mathematics, and specializing in financial maths and numerical computation. Would I be likely to be granted admission into a economics phd program at a good university without having done undergraduate economic studies? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.108.235.248 (talk) 05:14, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and you could also do an MBA. Alternatively you could do both, some universities have combined programs (an MBA that can be expanded into a PhD. program). Mr.K. (talk) 10:03, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We'd need more information to answer your question. For example, do you just want entry or do you want a scholarship? Do you expect to do very well into your hnours degree (will you get first class honours? A+ GPA?)? And what country are you from (your IP looks up to Australia) Nil Einne (talk) 13:07, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know for other countries, but if you were in the UK, the important thing at this point would be to think about what topic you might want to research for a PhD and to find potential supervisors whose research interests are similar to your own. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:05, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Econometrics or financial economics would be likely areas of expertise for someone in your position. Otherwise, a M.A. in economics would be advisable.24.68.54.155 (talk) 01:45, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

5 most important dates in classical antiquity

Any takers? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.227.125.142 (talk) 13:03, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure there will be. See Classical antiquity for the definition. --Tagishsimon (talk) 13:08, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You're gonna have a thousand answers before long, but for my two cents: the Ides of March, 44 BCE (Julius Ceasar assasinated) and August 1, 30 BCE (Mark Antony commits suicide, the final death-rattle of the Roman Republic and the birth of the Roman Empire) 90.235.17.83 (talk) 15:21, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Battle of Issus (332 BCE) opened Persia to Hellenization under Alexander. The Crucifixion and the de-criminalization of Christianity (Edict of Milan, 313 CE) would be in the short list too. The year of the Hegira (622) is one important endpoint. --Wetman (talk) 16:10, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I guess I'll be the first to say the Battle of Marathon. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:49, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A very western definition for "classical," huh? Yet nothing about ab urbe condita. Anti-wolf prejudice is my guess... --- OtherDave (talk) 12:17, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The division of ages into classical, medieval, and modern is inherently Western. It's quite proper that inquiries about "Classical antiquity" be construed as applying to European civilization. - Nunh-huh 02:03, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Technically, the most "important" date in this period is January 1, year 1 A.D. This is the reference date for the period defined as "Classical Antquity." The fact that this date is somewhat arbitrary does not lessen its importance. If you don't agree wtih this date, then we have no simple way to discuss the other dates. -Arch dude (talk) 02:22, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, that confuses me. Classical antiquity started some six centuries B.C., and we didn't set the Common/Christian Era at 1 A.D. until classical antiquity had given way to the Medieval. So I don't think you can really make a case that 1 A.D. is actually an important date in Classical antiquity. - Nunh-huh 04:13, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think he was being somewhat facetious and picking on the fact that a common idiom is to use the word "date" to mean "event"; for example the event of Pearl Harbor is what is really important, not merely the date of Dec 7, 1941, however we tend to call it the "date that will live in infamy". In the same way, what the question is REALLY asking is what the 5 most important, discrete events of classical antiquity were, the dates assigned to them by the modern gregorian calender being largely arbitrary and unimportant as to their significance... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:20, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, maybe that's what he meant, then. (Though one might argue, if one likes to argue, that two events on a single date might make that date more significant than either of the events....) - Nunh-huh 04:43, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

monks walk

I have been asked to do a workshop on movement and teaching the students the walking style of monks. It is a slow walk, almost heal to toe, but I cannot find anything on it. Any ideas? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Barbara46 (talk • contribs) 13:45, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You could try the search term walking meditation; and the Wikipedia article is Kinhin. Best, WikiJedits (talk) 17:20, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've spent a good deal of time with dozens of Catholic monks, who walk with the varied gaits, strides, and forms of the rest of humanity. They don't actually get schooled in a particular style. Even contemplatives differ as individuals, though in general they don't rush. And, amazingly, not all of them excel at Gregorian chant. --- OtherDave (talk) 12:19, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
For any hope of an answer, I think you would need to be more specific about the kind of monks you had in mind. The only kinds of monk I have any knowledge of show quite a lot of variety, though perhaps we can say that many monks have a generally rather dignified way of doing everything, not just walking. Strawless (talk) 17:39, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Afro-Arab

Doesn't Algeria, Mauritania, Tunisia, and Egypt are considered as Afro-Arab or have population of Afro-Arabs? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.204.74.48 (talk) 14:12, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Afro-Arab seems to be a wide and not so easy to define label, but basically the answers would be yes & yes, in varying degrees. --Tagishsimon (talk) 14:17, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And our Afro-Arab article is not much help. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 14:38, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A look at the Mahgreb articel might help.86.133.53.122 (talk) 12:51, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dude, I really don't understand your apparent obsession (also evinced in the Sultan of Oman question above) with micro-classifying the facial features and/or exact degrees of pigmentation of various Arab individuals, and trying to pigeonhole which alleged "race" they allegedly belong to. It would be helpful if you could clarify what the specific point or purpose of your questions might be. In modern science, the concept of "gene cline" is a whole lot more rigorously definable and solidly-established than the concept of "race", anyway... AnonMoos (talk) 15:35, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd love to see a factor analysis of correlations of alleles in a large sample of humanity. I wonder how many dimensions it would have. —Tamfang (talk) 09:12, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cheb Khaled

Isn't Cheb Khaled an Afro-Arab because he sure does look like one? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.204.74.48 (talk) 13:30, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. I believe they call such people "Algerians" in that neck of the woods. See Khaled (musician). --Tagishsimon (talk) 13:39, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Presidential nominee

If a Presidential nominee dies while campaigning with his V.P., who becomes the new Presidential nominee?

Where can I read about this process?

Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.150.50.205 (talk) 15:10, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This nice explainer from Slate gives the answer. Basically, it's up to the parties to decide what to do. 90.235.17.83 (talk) 15:17, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not quite what you're looking for, but you should know that in the United States presidential election, 1872 the Democratic nominee Horace Greeley died after the general election, but before the electoral college vote. His electoral college votes were split among several people, including Benjamin Gratz Brown, his running-mate. In the United States presidential election, 1912, the Republican vice presidential candidate James S. Sherman died shortly before the election, and his name was kept on the ballot. Sherman's electoral college votes, however, were given to Nicholas Murray Butler, the person selected to replace him as the Republican VP nominee. Keep in mind that it is technically the United States Electoral College which determines the president, not the general election. Faithless electors are always a factor, and may become an even bigger one when a candidate dies. -- 128.104.112.147 (talk) 23:49, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, you clearly want her too. -- Escape Artist Swyer Talk Contributions 20:58, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

When did Indians start moving to England?

I'm currently doing some research for a novel I'm starting to write and I would like to know when people started moving from India to England. The novel is set sometimes in the 1900s and I just wanted to make sure that it would be likely that an Indian family would be living in England.

Thank you for your time —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ivyice (talk • contribs) 15:45, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Indian students attending English universities already seems to be taken for granted (without much need for comment) in "The Adventure of the Three Students"... AnonMoos (talk) 15:53, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) I would say the 1900s is too early. Have a look at Immigration to the United Kingdom (1922-present day) (which puts immigration from the Indian subcontinent as starting in large numbers after Indian independence in 1947). Also Historical immigration to Great Britain. --Richardrj talk email 15:54, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In large numbers yes, but there was still some immigration from the subcontinent before then. 130.88.52.36 (talk) 17:20, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I realise that, but the OP was asking about the likelihood of an Indian family living in England at the turn of the century. So the answer to the question "would it be likely" is no. --Richardrj talk email 17:50, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Small numbers will have been here in the 19th century or even earlier - either wealthy people or servants; Dadabhai Naoroji was the first Indian elected to Parliament, in 1892, Abdul Karim, the Munshi, was a favourite servant of Queen Victoria in her last 15 years. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 17:18, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
More on Naoroji can be found here: Moving Here's Migration Histories: South Asian. Skimming suggests that though this site agrees with Richardrj that the bulk of the migration happened after 1950, individuals came to England as nannies, seamen, students and servants even in the 17th century. You'd have to read farther to discover if a whole family migrating together is likely. Cheers, WikiJedits (talk) 17:22, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There are three Brahmins in England in The Moonstone, written in the 1860s, but they are considered oddities. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 21:03, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There were certainly Indian sailors on British ships making the passage to England in the 18th century. It might be surprising if there were none in the 17th century. That isn't the same as moving to England, necessarily. Strawless (talk) 17:44, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sailors from the East Indies were known as lascars, a term now obsolete. Some stayed in the British ports where they landed and made their lives in the UK. Port cities such as Bristol, Cardiff, Liverpool, and the East End of London were places where small communities grew up, certainly by the late C19. Some married girls from back home; others married white English women and formed biracial families. See here. BrainyBabe (talk) 13:54, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Architect

I have made a page on Stiff Leadbetter an architect (great name) but don't know where online other than ODNB I can find more information about his life. Anyone got any ideas? Stronach (talk) 16:14, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would try the library of a school of architecture, perhaps in the country where he worked. He is at least mentioned with favorable comments in many books [11]. One book calls him a "minor provincial carpenter and builder" as well as "one of the busiest of the new generation of architects."[12] "Macmillan encyclopedia of architects" (1982)- Page 625 (snippet view) [13] has info on him. "A biographical dictionary of British architects, 1600-1840" Colvin calls him "the master carpenter employed to carry out Robert Adam's designs" (at a particular place)[14], but he does not get his own entry. "Rural rides" calls him a "little-known architect." "English hospitals 1660-1948" calls him "competent but rather dull." [15] "Glass Houses: A History of Greenhouses, Orangeries and Conservatories" calls him a "thorough but uninspired architect of the Palladian school." His work gets some mentions in news articles about the buildings, such as [16] , [17] and [18]. The present article should incorporate the criticisms. Several of the books such as "The Classical Orders of Architecture"[19] mention an architect named John Hawks who worked in America on such projects as the North Carolina Governor's palace, who learned his art working for Leadbetter. Edison (talk) 16:51, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks, you went to a lot of trouble. I will try to incorporate all of this. Point taken about the criticisms, will do. Stronach (talk) 17:48, 1 October 2008 (UTC).[reply]

I like his name. He would have made a great undertaker, or even a resurrection man. Edison (talk) 20:34, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yok. I'm trying to keep my thoughts out of the gutter *snicker*. I think I've put all your suggestions in--care to have a look and see if it passes muster?. Stronach (talk) 11:41, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Don't worry, Stronach, "we are all in the gutter, but some of us are writing good articles for Wikipedia". Nah, I like the original better.  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 00:03, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Plato and Aristotle on Knowledge

Plato shows in the "Meno" that he believes that all knowledge is not learned, but recollected from a previous life. Does Aristotle believe the same as Plato? I know they differ on many aspects, but I am not sure if they differ on this or not. (please don't lecture me on doing my own homework, I am writing an essay, and do not know the answer to this. I just don't want to put wrong information in my essay. Yes I know what plagiarism is, and I don't participate in it.) Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.7.126.152 (talk) 19:49, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, Aristotle lists some ways in which knowledge is obtained during people's lifetimes: episteme, nous, techne, sophia and phronesis. Don't know if that's the whole list. Aristotle's views on knowledge were influential for many centuries. You might be able to find out more by looking for works on epistemology, the theory of knowledge. Glad you have realised that plagiarism is not one of the routes to knowledge. Some people take a while to work that one out. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:35, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep in mind Bernard Baruch's observation that Aristotle, though twice married, believed women had fewer teeth than men do. Apparently observation was not high on his list... or he never let his wives open their mouths. --- OtherDave (talk) 12:21, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

teosophy and root races

Hi guys, I've always been interested in learning about occult traditions, whether they are true or not, I don't know, but I was reading about the root races, and we are in the aryan one suposedly, and well, there is a lot to it, but I read the wiki articles already and they seem to be writen only by proponents, and there are no detractors that give scientific arguments disproving teosophy's claims...about humanitys evolution, atlantis, lemuria and all that.

so my wuestion is...this subject is really complicated, vast and interesting...but are there scientific arguments in it's favour? or to disprove its claims?

thank u! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.91.11.185 (talk) 20:47, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The usual spelling in English is Theosophy. I think that I read about that in Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science; what I remember is that there were seven races, each having seven sub-races -- and that the alleged sequence and progression between them did not ascertainably correspond to any scientific discoveries about human evolution... AnonMoos (talk) 21:08, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What do you know, Wikipedia actually has an article Root race; my impression is that if you read it in the original, the whole thing sounds even sillier than it comes across in that article. The majority of modern scientists think that it's highly dubious whether modern "racial" divisions date back any farther than ca. 60,000-75,000 years ago at most... AnonMoos (talk) 21:32, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

that is cause all the modern races are nothing but sub races...that's why it seems so recent to science. maybe... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.91.11.185 (talk) 22:57, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep in mind in any event that this theory has nothing in common with even mid-20th century scientific thinking on racial or human development, much less modern, genomically-informed thinking on the subject. It's just 19th-century junk. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 02:50, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Bridges by Aart Jurrianse is a book that builds bridges between theosophy and science, it is rather an easy read, compared to, a tretise on cosmic fire. it might help —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 10:34, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The article Cline (biology) offers some more modern ideas than "race".--Wetman (talk) 15:18, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

October 2

Psychological self-treatment

Suppose a psychiatrist/psychologist has, say, bulimia. Would they be able to treat themself, or would they have to see another mental-health specialist? I know a psychiatrist could write for his own medication, I suppose, but as far as psychotherapy, can it be performed successfully on oneself? Thanks!--El aprendelenguas (talk) 05:12, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Treating yourself for something psychological would pretty much defeat the purpose, wouldn't it? GrszX 05:55, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Lots of people talk to themselves. I's very soothing :) Why do you think such self help would not work? Most people give up cigarettes by themselves whatever the advertisers say. Dmcq (talk) 07:34, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would suspect that if you have got to the point of requiring to see a pyschiatrist (as a trained professional pyschiatrist yourself) then you would be having trouble dealing with your problem on your own. An example from tv (not ideal but shows it happens) is in The Sopranos where Tony Soprano's pyschiatrist regularly goes to see a pyschiatrist herself. Often from being removed from the situation you can better judge a remedy. If you 'live' the experience then it will be harder to remove yourself from your thoughts/feelings and make an accurate diagnosis.194.221.133.226 (talk) 09:00, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If it were something minor, like biting one's fingernails, then self-treatment would probably be okay. But for something as serious as bulimia, a psychiatrist who treats him or herself has a fool for a client. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:17, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

While we're on the topic, can dentists fix their own teeth? --124.254.77.148 (talk) 11:32, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This thread reminds me of a dialogue from Barton Fink:
DEUTSCH: He's a little funny in the head.
BARTON: What did . . . What did he -
MASTRIONOTTI: Funny. As in, he likes to ventilate people with a shotgun and then cut their heads off.
DEUTSCH: Yeah, he's funny that way.
BARTON: I ...
MASTRIONOTTI: Started in Kansas City. Couple of housewives.
DEUTSCH: Couple of days ago we see the same M.O. out in Los Feliz.
MASTRIONOTTI: Doctor. Ear, nose and throat man.
DEUTSCH: All of which he's now missin'.
MASTRIONOTTI: Well, some of his throat was there.
DEUTSCH: Physician, heal thyself.
MASTRIONOTTI: Good luck with no fuckin' head.
194.171.56.13 (talk) 11:54, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My understanding of psychology is far from complete, but I guess what I'm trying to ask is, for serious mental disorders that require clinical psychologically attention (e.g. anorexia, bulimia, schizophrenia), could a psychiatrist/psychologist treat himself/herself? Or is it something about the nature of the mind and mental disorders that requires an external perspective to treat? Or does the knowledge they have of psychology make them "immune" to such diseases? That's my basic question. On a side note, what about less serious disorders like phobias? And can a psychologist perform cognitive behavioral therapy on himself/herself? Thanks!--El aprendelenguas (talk) 19:42, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
They could certainly self-prescribe medication to some degree (though I don't know about the legality of that). Whether they'd be able to rationally recognize and diagnose their own schizophrenia, for example, would depend on the degree to which they could be really rational about it. Certainly an education in psychology does not make one "immune" to diseases which are strongly biochemical and potentially genetic in origin. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 22:23, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It depends, it is possible to do some things on your own. You can, for example, hypnotize yourself to a certain extent. However, a lot of therapy methods see talking about the problem with others as an important part of the process. Wrad (talk) 00:37, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Psychological self-treatment might be like "Every day, in every way, I'm getting better and better." Or, self hypnosis. DOR (HK) (talk) 01:50, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see any problem about a psychologist treating his winter depression. In the case of schizophrenia, however, perhaps he is so dysfunctional that he is not even able to have coherent thoughts. Mr.K. (talk) 09:49, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
They could have a go at various purely psychological treatments (how successfully would depend on a lot of variables), but no doctor is allowed to prescribe their own medication (at least, not in any country I'm aware of). --Tango (talk) 16:51, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are a lot of things a shrink could do for himself that wouldn't necessarily require actual therapy -- supposing, of course, that the problem in question isn't one that makes it too difficult to evaluate his own condition in a realistic manner. For example, many conditions can be improved or avoided simply by avoiding problem behavior and situations: if you are prone to debilitating social anxiety in certain circumstances, for example, you can make sure you avoid the kind of situations that are likely to trigger those events and monitor your own emotional state so you can spot the warning signs. This kind of thing can often have a kind of a self-perpetuating effect, as learning to read your own mental state can bestow a feeling of control, which in turn makes it easier to function without triggering the condition, which increases your feeling of control... That kind of thing doesn't necessarily require any help from anyone, if you're familiar with the techniques. A lot of the help you get for mental conditions isn't necessarily so much about curing the condition as it is about learning to live with it and control it by various means. But that certainly wouldn't work for every condition (schizophrenia, for example, would most likely be extremely difficult, if not impossible to self-treat), and not everyone would have the willpower or even the awareness to do this, even if their condition was one that could be self-treated. The original poster's example was bulimia. I'm sure that would be a really tough nut to crack, but there are people who have beaten eating disorders on their own, and having an in-depth understanding of the illness and the way the human mind tends to work would surely be an asset. I wouldn't recommend that anyone go it alone, you understand, but I don't think it'd be impossible. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 01:29, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nigerian press

what role Nigerian press and media played over Bakassi issue —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.166.237.254 (talk) 14:50, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Our Bakassi article says the decision to transfer sovereignty of the region to Cameroon aroused anger in the Nigerian media. --Sean 20:29, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dass local government

Moved from Entertainment ref desk Astronaut (talk) 18:15, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

what is the history of Dass local government area of Bauchi state,Nigeria.195.166.237.254 (talk) 16:07, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Open meeting vs closed meeting

If a meeting is open as opposed to closed, does that generally mean that non-committee members are allowed to attend only or also allowed to participate? --Seans Potato Business 18:21, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That would probably be at the discretion of the chair. They wouldn't usually be able to vote, but they could speak if the chair invites them to. --Tango (talk) 18:27, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In an open meeting, the proceedings are conducted in the open, i.e., they can be observed by non-committee members or non-committee members may be invited to participate (though, who can observe or participate may be controlled). Closed meetings are conducted out of the scrutiny of outsiders with only committee members allowed to observe/participate (the minutes may be made available later though). --Regents Park (sniff out my socks) 20:14, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In Ireland, "open meeting" often means a public meeting which anyone can attend, or a sporting event which all comers can enter, but I think some organizations use it to mean a meeting that all members can attend and not just the members of the board or committee. Even at a public meeting, the rules will vary on who is allowed to participate - that is, to speak, vote, etc. So you need to find out what rules there are for the meetings you have in mind, or at least what usually happens. Strawless (talk) 23:38, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

¿ Is “ textual ” copy of the Bible ?

See this text, which is the correct translation? ( or From where was there extracted ? ):

May energy be in your spirit, strength in your resolution, gentleness in your heart, tenderness in your touch, respect on your lips, clarity in your mind and God in your soul And God said unto him, "Daniel, do you love Me or love My gifts?"

200.40.134.194 (talk) 22:14, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That doesn't sound to me like anything in the Book of Daniel, which is the obvious place to look for it. Indeed, I don't believe Daniel is recorded anywhere as speaking with God: that is one of the reasons why the Jewish religion disputes whether he is one of the prophets or not. Strawless (talk) 23:24, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A google search for that quote yields zero hits, and I also don't think it sounds like the Bible; I've read it several times, but this has a distinctly modern-ish feel to my ear. Where did you get it? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 23:26, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That is not in the Bible as used in mainstream Christianity. It may be in a Bible customized for an offshoot of Christianity or a Bible for another religion all together. -- kainaw™ 01:55, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I like that word customized. Can I get one with Wifi and a roof-rack? —Tamfang (talk) 09:16, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, there's the Aquarian Gospel to start with... AnonMoos (talk) 16:16, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

October 3

uncommitted ohio voters

I'm watching vice presidential debate on CNN, there is an uncommitted ohio voters graph, how does this work? --92.227.176.143 (talk) 02:10, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

CNN compiled a group of uncommintted Ohio voters at Ohio State University to watch the debate. As they listen, they have a device that they can move up and down according to their approval or disapproval of that the candidates are saying. GrszX 02:15, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Personally I wish they had given some of those devices to a bunch of chimpanzees—would probably have been more informative, and more entertaining! --98.217.8.46 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 03:20, 3 October 2008 (UTC).[reply]
Instead of "approve/disapprove" it could be "eat poo/fling poo"... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 03:56, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing to do with Ohio, but global health guru Hans Rosling has a stunning presentation in which he says, around the 2-minute mark, "I have shown that Swedish top students know statistically significantly less about the world than the chimpanzees." --- OtherDave (talk) 16:15, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hawaii Prepaid Healthcare Act

Out of curiosity, what can people here at the reference desk tell me about the Hawaii Prepaid Healthcare Act? I believe it regulates healthcare insurance in a way not found in anywhere else in the country, and was the basis of a plan to provide universal healthcare under the Clinton Administration. A quick Google search doesn't tell me much, and there's no article about it here on Wikipedia (although I added a mention in the ERISA article ages ago.) I'm asking because I'm thinking about authoring an article for it sometime in the foreseeable future. Musashi1600 (talk) 09:28, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The first Google hit seems informative. --Sean 14:01, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Treasury_security#TIPS

I am searching for foreign currency TIPS, specially in pound and euro. Are foreign governments also issuing securities like these? Mr.K. (talk) 09:42, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Already found: Inflation-indexed_bond. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr.K. (talk • contribs) 10:03, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Titanic (1997 film)

After the part of the film where the dome collapses and destroys the Grand Staircase, the camera rolls down a first class corridor which is flooding and having its doors torn off. I was wondering what's causing these doors to collapse, have the staterooms on either side of the corridor flooded and the pressure is destroying them. Because as far as I can see, the corridor is only just beginning to flood. Thanks --Thanks, Hadseys 12:39, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Could it be artistic license to make a more exciting scene? Without watching that exact part of the film it's hard to speculate for sure but...water is an incredibly powerful source, with the force of water rushing against a door that has already had unexpected pressure on it, perhaps that would be enough. I suspect it is artistic license though, not a whole lot of hollywood is grounded in reality, and less so is scientifically sound. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 13:26, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Having watched the scene in question, I'd say you're right, it looks kind of flaky but that's just what film-makers do. --Richardrj talk email 13:36, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • So am I right in thinking that the staterooms on the right hand side of the corridor have already flooded and the corridor is now buckling under the oncoming water and from the pressurised water in the staterooms? --Thanks, Hadseys 13:46, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No there is no reason for the doors to collapse, they should not collapse at all. The authors of the film only wanted to make the film look impressive. I have no idea what would be their explanation of the phenomemon, but it certainly wouldn't make much scientific sense. --Lgriot (talk) 14:50, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I looks to me like the staterooms were supposed to have been suddenly flooded, breaking down the flimsy doors. Nice of them to wait until the camera rolled by. APL (talk) 04:07, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Indigenous patterns throughout Central America

Further to the question about blacks in various countries in South America, it occured to me to ask why the gradation of population in Central America is the way it is. Mexico, while not free of racism, has fused its history into a new race (or people, or ethnic group), the mestiso. Its immediate neighbo(u)r to the south, Guatemala, has a high proportion of indigenous people, and, roughly speaking, as one meanders down the peninsula, it becomes progressively "whiter" (more European or North American), culminating in Costa Rica, the least indigenous country of the region. Why is this? BrainyBabe (talk) 14:07, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The situation is not so clear cut in Mexico where gradations of race and racism exist across the country. This is one of the issues of the Zapatista Army of National Liberation. Rmhermen (talk) 14:55, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, most of the power structure in Mexico is decidedly European. The idea that Mexicans are a uniform race of 50% Europeans and 50% indiginous is a bit of a whitewash (pardon the pun). Especially in the south, such as the Yucatan and Oaxaca areas, there a lots of fully indiginous peoples which have not assimilated well into Mexican society. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 15:54, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Chinese in Africa

Again following on from a question about Africans in China, how many Chinese people are there in Africa? Our article on Chinese South Africans suggests 100 000 - 300 000 in that country alone, most of them recent immigrants, as opposed to the descendants of previous waves. This 2007 International Herald Tribune article says the "Xinhua press agency recently estimated there were at least 750,000 Chinese working or living for extended periods on the continent" [20]. I am not sure to what extent that is an unbiased source. Does any other national or international body attempt to keep accurate statistics -- ie how reliable is whatever data there is? How quickly is the situation changing -- my impression is, very rapidly, but I might be wrong. What countries have the most Chinese immigrants or long-term workers? Aside from the usual entrepreneurs, managers, engineers, technicians, and shopkeepers, what sort of occupation or function do the immigrants fulfil? BrainyBabe (talk) 14:25, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am a Chinese-born American who has recently backpacked from Cairo to Cape. Here are my impressions of the extent of Chinese immigration:
Egypt: low Ethiopia: extraordinarily high (thousands of entrepreneurs but also thousands of common laborers who are in construction) Somaliland: low+ I met a Chinese telecom engineer and the locals told me the Chinese government had installed water purification in Hargeisa Kenya: low presence in raw numbers but a Kenyan diplomat said they were a noticeable presence at the trade table Tanzania: High in Dar es Salaam Malawi: Recently Malawi broke it's long standing relationship w/ Taiwan, immigrant numbers look low Mozambique: High in Maputo and other regional centers South Africa: It's a big country so I can't confirm what end of that estimate is more accurate. But it seems minor in terms of influence. Verdict: 750k seems high Lotsofissues (talk) 00:32, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Interresting impressions. I am intrigued that the Chinese are bringing in their own labourers. This seems historically anomalous. One thing that Africa has in large measure is raw human power. (oh yeah, and raw materials too.) BrainyBabe (talk) 06:04, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pyramid

There are pyramids in Egypt and also in various south american countries, 1, are there any in any other places on earth, and 2, why have these two seperate places build similar structures, is there a connection? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 15:17, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1. Yes, all around the world. see the article pyramid for checking where. 2. Because it is pretty stable, despite being a high structure. Mr.K. (talk) 15:27, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No historian thinks that all these forms are culturally connected by historic contact among peoples or through extra-terrestrial interference. There is an authentic cultural connection between the Egyptian pyramids and the pyramids at Axum, in northern Ethiopia, south of Egypt, however. Thor Heyerdahl built the Ra II to sail it across the Atlantic in an attempt to prove that Egyptians could have sailed to Central America. Such connections form a major part of Mormon mythology.--Wetman (talk) 15:30, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I wouldn't say NO historian. No credible historian does, but for an entertaining read, check out Graham Hancock's book Fingerprints of the Gods, where he makes an arguement for it. He does lay out a very interesting case, and its a good read. I won't spoil the ending for you, but, while it doesn't have anything to do with psychopathic retangular monoliths that play Richard Strauss music to monkeys, its pretty close. Understand going in that its total bullshit, but its still an interesting case. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 15:51, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Without wanting to side with Hancock or his ilk, I would say that "I do not see any merit in his argument" does not necessarily mean "His argument is total bullshit". -- JackofOz (talk) 22:09, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Some of those who subscribe to Pyramidology believe in such connections, and also connections to vaguely similar structures in Southeast Asia. I once read an hysterical book (which was also concerned with UFOs and anti-gravity and stuff) which claimed there was a harmonic relationship between the positions of these supposedly-related vaguely pyramidal structures, and thus claimed some pyramid power travel/communications network existed between these. Gosh, I wish I could remember that book's name. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 15:47, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That was someone other than Hancock... His book is a little more grounded in reality, though not much... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 15:51, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I heard someone on the Art Bell show say that the Giza pyramids were a hyperdimensional weapon used to defeat space aliens, or something. (And also to destroy the planet from which the asteroid belt was formed.) Adam Bishop (talk) 21:19, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There's a name used in archeology/anthropology for when the same things (pottery, for eg) develop entirely independently in different cultures around the world (generally because the inventions are the most obvious, simple solutions to particular problems facing these cultures) -- but I can't for the life of remember what the term is. But it is a genuine phenomenom. Nothing to do with little green men.86.147.162.163 (talk) 15:59, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In evolutionary biology, the term is called convergent evolution, where unrelated organisms devlop similar characteristics to fill similar niche's in their environs. (like Dolphins and fish both having fins). According to our article on convergent evolution, and I quote "In cultural evolution, convergent evolution is the development of similar cultural adaptations to similar environmental conditions by different peoples with different ancestral cultures." So perhaps the term convergent evolution is appropriate here too... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 16:29, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Think about it, what's the safest way of building a very stable (yet impressive-looking) structure which rises to a reasonable height, when you don't have concrete or steel, or even any strong mortar? By having the cross-section of each level be smaller than the cross-section of the levels below it. I don't see much of a coincidence or spookily-mysterious resemblance here. And aside from such basic structurally-constrained factors, there really isn't too much specific resemblance in detail between meso-American and Egyptian pyramids -- Meso-American pyramids had steps running up the sides, and religious rituals were conducted at the top, while none of that was true for Egyptian pyramids... AnonMoos (talk) 22:07, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It would also have been a straight development of the prehistoric earthen mounds, found im many of the ancient cultures (Hill of Tara, kofun, Poverty Point). --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:30, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Islam fasting and activities

Besides Ramadan, which others months of the Hijri calender do Muslims fast because their Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) used do? During those months such as Rajab and Muharram, what are the prayers and activities do Muslims do? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.204.74.52 (talk) 15:36, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You know, we have an article on Islam. Also, you may want to read the chapter in your World Religions textbook that came immediately before that homework assignment. I am certain the answer will be in there. Good luck on that homework, and please re-read that disclaimer at the top of the page. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 15:45, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What is this symbol?

hi, ok it looks like this:

a standard christian cross, with two extra horizontal lines each side of the horizontal line that are curved slightly away from the horizontal line. Anyone know what it is? thanks, --84.69.147.138 (talk) 16:41, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This? GrszX 16:44, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

its that but the bottom horizontal line is that same distance from the middle line as the top one, and the two 'non middle' lines are curved, like brackets '( )' on their sides, bending out from the middle line..... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.69.147.138 (talk) 16:51, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Some context of where you saw it may help. GrszX 16:57, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There are several on the Cross page. Take a look there to see if you can see what you mean. GrszX 16:59, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's the Eastern Orthodox Church cross, which includes the Russian OC but others as well. See Patriarchal cross#Other variations. It should be added to the Cross page. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:01, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

i have no idea where i saw it, and i cant find it on the internet either. It looks like this (i just did this quickly) (you have to 'edit' to see it: 

--------------o--------------
-------------ooo-------------
-------------ooo-------------
-------------ooo-------------
-------------ooo-------------
---o---------ooo---------o---
----oo-------ooo-------oo----
----oooo-----ooo-----oooo----
------ooooooooooooooooo------
---------ooooooooooo---------
-------------ooo-------------
---ooooooooooooooooooooooo---
-ooooooooooooooooooooooooooo-
---ooooooooooooooooooooooo---
-------------ooo-------------
---------ooooooooooo---------
------ooooooooooooooooo------
----oooo-----ooo-----oooo----
----oo-------ooo-------oo----
---o---------ooo---------o---
-------------ooo-------------
-------------ooo-------------
-------------ooo-------------
-------------ooo-------------
-------------ooo-------------
-------------ooo-------------
-------------ooo-------------
-------------ooo-------------
--------------o--------------

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.69.147.138 (talk) 17:00, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's a Discordian symbol kind of like that, but no Christian symbol (as far as I'm aware). AnonMoos (talk) 18:03, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Did you bother checking the description for the image? It says it's the "The three-barred cross" of the Russian Orthodox Church. The Church's article says practitioners crossed themselves with three fingers, hence the three-barred cross. Here is anoth example. Here is the Patriarchal cross, which only has two cross bars instead of three. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 18:00, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There's no need to be rude. The cross in question isn't the Russian Orthodox cross anyway, it's the one the orignal posters has created for us in text, thus there is no "description for the image" to be checked. --LarryMac | Talk 18:18, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's also mildly similar to Image:Triple-Goddess-Waxing-Full-Waning-Symbol.png Nil Einne (talk) 22:05, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As the image author, I don't really see too much resemblance... Possibly the original poster might mean some form of the Scientology cross, but that has little spikes, not curving lines AnonMoos (talk) 22:10, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Really? The only difference I see is that one has a round moon the other one highly epitical. The crescents are more or less exactly the same Nil Einne (talk) 07:52, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Triple goddess waxing-crescent/full-moon/waning-crescent symbol has a central circle, but no central lines, while the symbol crudely depicted in ASCII above has two central lines at perpendicular angles, but no central circle. (What you call an "elongated ellipse" is pretty much exactly the same as the depiction of a straight line with rounded ends in the perpendicular direction...). AnonMoos (talk) 16:09, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. Converted the ASCII text to a graphic using netpbm (which is useful for things like that), so that it can be seen roughly what it looks like using square pixels... AnonMoos (talk) 21:15, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your drawing is similar to a "zhuk v muravejnike" ("beetle in an anthill" in Russian) symbol in Strugatsky brothers' eponymous novel. I have read Zhuk v Muravejnike about 20 years ago, but if I remember correctly the symbol was based on a kanji, or at least that's how I understood it back then. Anyway, you may want to look or ask on sites devoted to Strugatskie brothers' works. And you may want to read the novel, too. It's really good.--Dr Dima (talk) 01:55, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Turns out we have an English-language page for the novel, Beetle in the Anthill. Wiki has articles for EVERYTHING :) --Dr Dima (talk) 02:00, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
File:Flag of the Kabyle people.svg
Berber flag
One website describes this to be the Tifinagh letter "Z", which is located in the middle stripe of the flag. Of course, there is no straight middle cross bar in this symbol. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:07, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Back issues of Irano-Judaica?

I am trying to find the following article:

  • Daniel D. Leslie, "Persia or Yemen? The Origin of the Kaifeng Jews," in Shaul Shaked, ed., Irano-Judaica: Studies Relating to Jewish Contacts with Persian Culture Throughout the Ages (Jerusalem, 1982), pp. 101-111.

However, I can't seem to find any seller on-line that has back issues of Irano-Judaica for purchase. Does anyone know where I can find it? --Ghostexorcist (talk) 17:53, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nevermind. I found a couple of places that are selling it on line, however, it ranges between $75 and $350! I just want a single article from it. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 18:59, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If you have a big university library nearby they might have it (Toronto has it but I'm not sure that helps). Adam Bishop (talk) 21:16, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know where the questioner lives. However,all the past copies of "Irano Judaica" can be found at the Jewish National and University Library at Givat Ram, Jerusalem. There are copies in the Judaica Reading Room and they can also be ordered from the stacks. None of them are for home loan. Simonschaim (talk) 10:32, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have just looked for further libraries at which "Irano Judaica" can be found. There is the Library of Congress in Washington D.C. and a number of libraries in Britain - for a list look under COPAC on the internet.Simonschaim (talk) 10:41, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If two gay consenting adults have sex in KSA, is it illegal?

Even if it's in privacy?

And another question, if two consenting adults ( a 20 year old heterosexual couple ) have sex there and they're NOT married, is it illegal? Thanks friends. --190.49.105.156 (talk) 18:47, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

LGBT rights in Saudi Arabia may answer your first question. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 18:52, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm pretty sure the answer to both is it's illegal Nil Einne (talk) 21:54, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, Saudi Arabia has religious courts (see Sharia) for all aspects of the law, and if these gay consenting adults are engaging in homosexual activity then it can be a capital offence, so in Saudi Arabia the ultimate sanction they face is the death penalty. If the two consenting heterosexual adults are not married to each other but are married to other people, then adultery is also potentially a capital offence. If they are not married to anyone, then I believe Islamic law is much more equivocal. I don't pretend to have the complete answer to the last case, but from what little I know of what goes on there it seems unlikely that they would be in the same trouble. Strawless (talk) 23:22, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Afterthought - prostitution in Saudi Arabia is against the law, too. Strawless (talk) 23:34, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I was half-expecting that "LGBT rights in Saudi Arabia" would be a totally blank article! I wonder what the Wahhabi muftis there have to say about Mukhannathun, who aren't necessarily homosexuals exactly, but are kind of inter-gender people who have some recognized status within some innterpretations of Islam... AnonMoos (talk) 00:22, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Given that the OP has chosen to post on the English-language Wikipedia, the situation of foreigners in Saudi may be of relevance. According to our article, there about 5.5 million resident foreigners, out of a total population of 27m; "around 100,000 Westerners in Saudi Arabia, most of whom live in compounds or gated communities." To a certain extent, these are self-policing, e.g. alcohol has been known to occur, and sex too, sometimes in combination, without the police getting involved. BrainyBabe (talk) 07:11, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Baron George Wrangell

How, if at all, was white-Russian aristo Baron George Wrangell related to the Wrangel family? George was the eyepatch-wearing alcoholic columnist model for C. F. Hathaway Company. (obit) (Mirror Makers mention) -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:07, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Regrettably, his NYT obituary of June 10, 1969 doesn't mention his father's name, but does state that he was "a nephew of a commander of the Russian White Army and the son of the former Imperial Russian Consul General in Rome". FWIW, he was born 1 Sept 1903 in Russia, came to the U.S. in 1930, was naturalized 20 Apr 1942 in the New York Southern District, and died 7 or 8 June 1969 in New York City's Doctors Hospital. His survivors were his widow, Katherine Bissell Wrangell, his mother Duchess Sasso Ruffo of Caracas, brothers Paul and Basil, both of Los Angeles, and a sister, Mrs. Elizabeth Wrangell Maulmeister of Paris. From this information, I would infer that his mother was Marussia Sasso Ruffo (30 Jul 1879-12 Dec 1971), who married Peter Freiherr von Wrangell (29 Jun 1874-Paris 1951) in St. Petersburg on 30 Oct 1902. - Nunh-huh 22:38, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. This leads me to think George is likely notable enough for a Wikipedia article (Baron, related to a bunch of other noted folks, super-famous model for 10 years, columnist), but there doesn't seem to be enough verifiable material to make it all stick. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:23, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you - I think probably his iconic Hathaway status would be enough. Most of the info above can be cited to various newspaper articles, but we would need some "reliable source" to expand the article. Plus we would probably never be able to get a photo that would pass "fair use" muster on Wikipedia. - Nunh-huh 23:59, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

October 4

jocasta

what kind of person is jocasta —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.50.166.184 (talk) 02:36, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We have an article on her at Jocasta. You could also read any number of classic Greek plays that feature her as a character, including Oedipus Rex and Phoenician Women. Good luck! --Jayron32.talk.contribs 03:28, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Man Who Liked Dickens

Hi. The article on A Handful of Dust states that the novel was an extrapolation of the author's short story The Man Who Liked Dickens. Does anyone know how I might be able to get hold of a copy of this short story, preferably online? Thanks! ╟─Treasury§Tag►contribs─╢ 18:20, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Affair of the Diamond Necklace question

What happened to the titular diamond necklace that so ruined Marie Antoinette? I can't seem to find any answers or pictures, just a single drawing of it that appears undated. (Image:Diamond Necklace Marie Antoinette.jpeg) Thanks! Zidel333 (talk) 18:55, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It was taken apart and the constituent gems sold in London and Paris by the Count & Countess de La Motte. Probably some of these have been reused in other settings. - Nunh-huh 19:19, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The London Times, in January 1959, covering the "Ageless Diamond" exhibition at Christie's, stated that the Duchess of Sutherland's sautoir displayed there was "part of the famous, or rather, notorious necklace" that brought about Marie Antoinette's downfall. The necklace stolen by the La Mottes had 629 diamonds. Among the sales mentioned by La Motte in his deposition were 22 stones from the "scallops" sold by him to Gray's, a jewel store in Bond Street, London. It is thought that the stones that were used in the Duchess of Sutherland's sautoir came from among those 22 stones. (We don't seem to have an article on sautoirs: these are rope necklaces, longer than opera length, falling below the waist, and often having a tassel or pendant.) - Nunh-huh 19:54, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! This definitely helps explain what happened. Seems a shame what happened to the necklace though, it would be a fabulous sight today. Any chance of pictures of some of the subsequent jewelry? Zidel333 (talk) 21:50, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

David Gisser

Can you please create a page on a man named David Gisser, he has engineering importance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.183.98.14 (talk) 22:24, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is the reference desk. I believe you're looking for Wikipedia:Requested articles. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 22:28, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sistine chapel ceiling - classification requested

I'm wondering if there is any internationally standardized system to define parts of the Ceiling of the Sistine Chapel? --Scriberius (talk) 22:34, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not completely sure I understand the question, but the "religious and public buildings of papal Rome" are all on the Unesco list of World Heritage Sites [21], using the following criteria:
"(1) to represent a masterpiece of human creative genius; (2) to exhibit an important interchange of human values, over a span of time or within a cultural area of the world, on developments in architecture or technology, monumental arts, town-planning or landscape design; (3) to bear a unique or at least exceptional testimony to a cultural tradition or to a civilization which is living or which has disappeared; (4) to be an outstanding example of a type of building, architectural or technological ensemble or landscape which illustrates (a) significant stage(s) in human history; and (6) to be directly or tangibly associated with events or living traditions, with ideas, or with beliefs, with artistic and literary works of outstanding universal significance. (The Committee considers that this criterion should preferably be used in conjunction with other criteria)".
Some of these criteria apply specifically to the ceiling. DAVID ŠENEK 09:20, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, but I just need a classification system for locating parts the ceiling. --Scriberius (talk) 12:44, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Why don't you just use the system used by the Vatican Museum? I doubt this is going to be standardized by ISO! Dmcq (talk) 14:02, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

McCain as Maverick

When and by whom was the term "Maverick" first used to describe John McCain? 76.103.138.164 (talk) 22:42, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This profile mentions a 1993 Washington Post article that described McCain as "a conservative with maverick instincts." Not sure that was the first, though, it was soon afterwards that he got that reputation due to his efforts to towards campaign finance reform. Rockpocket 01:19, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It was his gunner, "Goose", who first called him that. But then Goose died when he ejected into the canopy. And Meg Ryan cried a lot. But its OK, cuz Kelly McGillis was WAY hotter. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:58, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
James Garner was well known as a maverick way back in 1957, long before McCain. Perhaps he should run for president. Edison (talk) 05:29, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
He did and with Jack Lemmon no less! --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:46, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As an aside...Mel Gibson, another maverick, despite most people thinking of him as Australian, is eligible to be President himself, being born in the U.S. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:46, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think his drunken anti-Semitic comments probably tanked any actual eligibility. --140.247.11.44 (talk) 15:25, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

October 5

Today's bailout verses the 1929 depression

What are the differences between the great depression of 1929 compared to today's economic bailout —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.188.34.226 (talk) 14:16, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For starters, the great depression was a recession and today's bailout is a bailout. To answer your question, this mentions a few differences and similarities. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 15:01, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

English Consumer Law

If an item has been purchased from a high street shop and it is faulty, is the consumer legally entitled to a refund? I have been reading many different pages on this and some say you are and others say they are only obliged to fix / replace. If the law states that a refund is obliged, can someone point me to the legislation that specifies this. Thanks Kirk UK —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.82.79.175 (talk) 14:35, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is dealt with in our Sale of Goods Act 1979 article. "Within six months, beginning at the time at which the goods were delivered, the buyer can require the seller to repair the goods, reduce the price, or rescind (revesting property and requiring the return of any payment) the contract where the buyer successfully claims that the goods were not in accordance with the contract at the time of delivery." In other words, the consumer can make the choice. The supplier has to comply or counterclaim that there is no problem with the goods. --Tagishsimon (talk) 15:33, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And the specific legislation was amendments made to the Sale of Goods Act 1979 in the The Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002. --Tagishsimon (talk) 15:43, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

'.....the goods were not in accordance with the contract at the time of delivery.' does this mean that if the goods worked on the day of delivery but then 'died' after two days (it was a hard drive) is it arguable that they were not faulty at the time of delivery? I've been going through the articles mentioned above, I'm no lawyer and getting more confused.

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