Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics

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    Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics/Archives

    Is there a non-super heroes WikiProject?

    I'm wondering: Is there? LWZ (talk) 20:07, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    There are projects for various publishers and regions of comics, including the non-superhero titles, but no specific group devoted exclusively to no-superhero characters. I think part of the problem there might be the comparative lack of interest. If there are any particular genres which you think might deserve such attention, you might want to post a proposal at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals and maybe leave a message here with a link to that page to see if there's enough interest to start one. John Carter (talk) 20:16, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I think starting a separate non-superheroes project would weaken both projects, but would love to see some non-superhero workgroups established within this project. Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:06, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    There are a lot of non-superhero projects: Comic strips, Comics creators, Webcomics, British comics, European comics, World comics
    WikiProject Comics/Workgroups
    Zoli79 (talk) 22:13, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    From the hyphen between non and super and the space between super and heroes, my interpret of what the anon meant was to ask if there is a project regarding heroes (whether costumed or otherwise, I have no guess) who aren't super-powered. Doczilla (talk) 01:40, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Could be a typo and they meant Heroes, the telly program? They have a project at Wikipedia:WikiProject Heroes. However, looking at the contribs, I'd say the user is after an indy or alternative comics project or workgroup. I've never seen a definition of alternative comics I like, but if people think it's worthwhile... Hiding T 14:38, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for the suggestions Zoli79. I've looked into that Comics creators project, but it seems pretty dead. Hiding and Doczilla, are you really having trouble figuring out what "non-super hero" means, our are you just being jerks because I'm new here? LWZ (talk) 16:23, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think we are being jerks, I think we were just trying to be helpful. Since you are new, you may not be aware of our assume good faith guidance. It's worth a read and saves the time and trouble of working out if someone is being a jerk. You just assume they aren't, unless they really really make it obvious. :) The comics creators work group isn't dead, it is merely new and looking for blood. Feel free to be that blood. I know Tenebrae and myself do a bit of work on creators, and I am sure there are a few others out there. The work groups are a new thing for us and we're all finding our feet on how they work. BOZ has made excellent progress at the Marvel work group, so if you need a heads up on what to do with a work group, you might want to leave a message for BOZ at User talk:BOZ. Hiding T 16:31, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    You didn't answer my question about the source of your expressed difficulty in figuring out the meaning of "non-super heroes." Were you really having trouble figuring out what "non-super heroes" means? Or were you just acting like a jerk? Also, your "I think we were just trying to be helpful," smells like obvious bullshit because you weren't even talking to me directly but instead talking about me in the third person. (Did someone named "Doczilla" really refer to me as "the anon" because I'm signing on with my initials?) This all makes me feel pretty unwelcome in your All-Star Winners Squadron‎ Green Lantern Club House of Dr. Doom. If that was your goal, congratulations. LWZ (talk) 17:15, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Relax. Nobody was trying to be a jerk; on the contrary, people were trying to be helpful. People were confused about what you were asking because, as stated, there was a space between "super" and "heroes" in your question, and they were just trying to answer it in as many ways as possible, because they wanted to help you. People were trying to go beyond a short response and give as complete an answer as possible. Attacking people for trying to help you just makes people not want to help you, and it's also against Wikipedia policy; it's like asking a friend to borrow two dollars and then getting mad because they offered to lend you three dollars instead. —Lowellian (reply) 17:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh, well then in the spirit of just trying to be helpful, I'll point out that "A superhero [is] (also known as a super hero)". And thanks for your participation, but how would you possibly know what two other people were trying to do? I think Hiding and Doczilla probably have a better idea of what their motives are and can provide a more accurate response as to whether they were honestly confused and thought "non-super heroes" might mean non-super episodes of the TV show Heroes or whatever. And then they can explain why they thought the best way to be helpful to me was to talk about me rather than to me. And it's actually very little like a friend giving me extra money, and a lot more like as if I were asking complete strangers for directions to the gas station, and then they talk to each other about whether I might mean the train station where everyone has bad gas, or maybe a radio station made completely of helium. And then I say "Are you really that confused, or are you just trying to be jerks?" and then they so "No, we're just being extra super helpful to you." LWZ (talk) 18:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    While I acknowledge that you might have a point in the above, I believe it is reasonable to not insult those who you are asking for help from. To specifically answer your question as I see it, no, there is no such group, as Corto Maltese, Dakota North, Tintin, Two-Gun Kid, and several other characters could all fall within the term "no-super" hero, as you haven't particularly defined "Hero" in this context. For that matter, the characters from the old Night Nurse (comics) four-issue series might qualify as well. Right now, all characters are covered either by their specific publisher (in the case of DC or Marvel), place of origin, or media (like webcomics). There is currently one specific project for a specific hero, Superman, and some projects related to characters who have appeared in comics, like Star Trek, Star Wars, G.I. Joe, and the like. I think the current consensus is that trying to create groups based on "types" of characters or genres hasn't yet been done. There is the possibility, albeit a remote one, of creating, for instance, a western comics, subproject, detective subproject, romance comics subproject, etc., although I doubt if there would ever be much activity. You would be free to propose any such projects and perhaps find out otherwise, but the current organizational model has not been based on "types of charcters" but rather publisher or area of origin. John Carter (talk) 19:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    For all this commotion, LWZ still hasn't indicated what this is about. A Hello Kitty WikiProject would be non-superheroes. (Yeah, I said that in third person. We talk to everybody when we talk on these pages, not just the person who started the thread.) Wryspy (talk) 21:17, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I think I made it pretty clear what my question was about: Whether there is a non-super heroes comics WikiProject. This one, called simply "WikiProject Comics" seems to be the place to go to when someone has a question about super hero topics like the JLA teleporter, or who drew which picture of Dr. Doom, Challengers of the Fantastic‎, Bat-Thing‎, X-Patrol‎, Spider-Boy‎, Steve Gerber, Green Lanterns, Changeling (Marvel Comics) vs. Morph (Marvel Comics), User: Asgardian deleting parts of The Secret Wars and Contest of Champions articles, Trinity (DC Comics), and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mister Negative. So, it seems pretty clear that this is the place for super hero comics discussion, and I think my question was pretty clearly about where the non-super hero comics discussion is supposed to go. Clear enough that Zoli79 could direct me to where the other comics projects are, clear enough that Phil Sandifer could say he would "love to see some non-superhero workgroups established," and clear enough that John Carter could point me to Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals and even directly refer to me as "you" rather than "the anon." LWZ (talk) 22:00, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm also new here, but I can understand, if people not interested in superheroes get frustrated or just simply discouraged, because most of the discussion around here is about superheroes. Or just take a look at the task list. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against superhero comics, it's just that usually fans of that type are far more enthusiastic. Maybe there should be a wikiproject on superheroes in general, and other projects as superman, dc, marvel could be part of that? Zoli79 (talk) 22:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Not necessarily a bad idea, but it would take most of the interested editors away. Like it or not, there are a lot more people indicated in Batman articles than, say, Prince Valiant or Outlaw Kid articles. If we were to separate out the costumed heroes, which I think is probably a more accurate term, although I still can't be sure how LWZ defines superheroes or heroes so I can't know if s/he would include Batman as one or not, we would probably lose what attention to the other articles we can get from those editors who are primarily interested in the costumed heroes, and the articles would almost certainly suffer on that basis. John Carter (talk) 22:50, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I was also unclear about what you were asking, and rattling off a dozen projects of what you consider super-hero project topics didn't help. Do you mean a project that would focus on non-super characters, or a project that focuses on non-super series? Listing what you meant (romance, western, etc.) would have helped clear things up. I think Doczilla and Hiding politely asked for clarification, even if Phil knew what you were asking about right away. Since you said you're new, I'd recommend not taking people's comments negatively unless it's pretty obvious, and calling people jerks is definitely going to make things more difficult when trying to deal with others. I've learned my lesson there. joshschr (Talk | contribs) 22:35, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    When all it says at the very top is "Is there a non-super heroes WikiProject? I'm wondering: Is there?" there's no reason for anybody to make any assumption about what LWZ means. The word comics does not appear in the header or that question. Is this heated discussion over the meaning of one little question really a good use of anyone's time, though? Wryspy (talk refraining from continued stoking of the fire now...) 01:50, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    And the answer to the first question, as I've said a few times now, is "No." One could failry assume that a message on the talk pages of a comics project mentioning super-powered characters, who basically occur primarily in comics, meant to deal with comics characters. It wasn't posted at the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Novels page, so it's a fair assumption non-super comics heroes is meant. Taking into account "other media heroes", including the likes of Robin Hood, that might be a decent idea, but there are already a lot of projects dealing with individual "heroes": James Bond, King Arthur, Sherlock Holmes, several individual TV shoes, and the list goes on. And there would still be the definition of "heroes" to work out. Presumably it means more than "protagonist", but there would need to be some sort of definition there. John Carter (talk) 02:00, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Okay, to answer the question. Yes. It is here. Hope that helps. Hiding T 13:55, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Steve Block, I'm unsure that does answer the question adequately. So this is the self-imposed umbrella for all comics, superhero or not? That seems a bit presumptuous but perhaps it simply reads that way and what is meant is this is the default project for comics (which seems logical).Netkinetic (t/c/@) 20:29, 23 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I, for one, would not be opposed to the creation of a non-super comic hero project. Because the most popular comic book characters tent to wear capes and tights, the guys in jackets and ties have tended to get overlooked. An example: Dan Dunn is the first character ever originally created for publication in a newstand comic book, a not insignificant bit of history. He was a sort of international Dick Tracy who battled an Asian criminal mastermind, and had adventures not dissimilar to some early comic book superheroes. I considered him historically significant enough to add a mention to the List of superhero debuts, but he was quickly deleted. I'd like to see an organized effort to document characters like Dan Dunn, Dr. Spector, Slam Bradley, and others of the type.--Drvanthorp (talk) 16:09, 20 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I second that. Also, talking about "non-super" hero & "non-superhero" books, I'd be interested to see better coverage of the Western characters, including (off the top of my head) Kid Colt, Rawhide Kid, & Two-Gun Kid. (Anybody remember George Perez' gorgeous work on 'em in Avengers?) Western hasn't anything on 'em, & could use something besides the heavy emphasis on movies, for a start. Trekphiler (talk) 03:26, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I, for what it's worth, would strongly oppose such a split. I think it better to make a commitment to improving this project - something that could be done if the people who seem to want to form another project joined and became active in this one. I think the project is better served as a project that looks programatically at all aspects of comics. At best it would make sense to firmly establish a superheroes project as a sub-project of this. But there should still be a main project for comics in general, most of which, we should note, are not superhero comics. Phil Sandifer (talk) 13:53, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Alternate versions of Wolverine

    Input would be appreciated at Talk:Alternate versions of Wolverine. Myself and User:RossF18 are in dispute over how best to improve the article. Hiding T 20:45, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Honestly, I don't think any of these sorts of articles should exist. any sort of Out-of-continuity variation of a character should be discussed in the article on the relevant work (Why should the character of Batman in The Dark Knight Returns be discussed in a "Alternate versions of Batman" article when it is better served in its proper context at Batman: The Dark Knight Returns?). WesleyDodds (talk) 02:03, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    To a degree I agree with Wesley — the lists shouldn't be used in lieu of rounding out the other articles. Though the relevant articles include the article for the character, if the AV list has been split off for good reason.
    That being said, the AV lists shouldn't be plot dumps or fan spec pieces. And the Wolvi one looks like its going that way. And my personal pref would be to see them structured by real world chronology since the publication order isn't subjective. Alphabetically is a good second choice if there is a cut and dried basis for dabing. But perceived importance is a bad way to go since we have to rank them. - J Greb (talk) 04:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I think the reason these articles exist is that they either get split off of the main article or they are the result of mergers. What's the best way to improve them then? What sort of plot detail should they include? Hiding T 11:56, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    My gut response is "almost none". The plot elements should be restricted to the articles on the story arcs. The AV list should just hit the Cliff's notes as to how each AV diverges or takes off from the primary version. It should also have a {{main}} or {{seealso}} in the section to route to the article on the article, if one exists.
    With regard to the Wolvie article... there looks to be a fair chunk of most of the sections that should be removed, including what reads as fan spec . There is one split off that may need to be done — the Ultimate Wolvie. With the articles, in general, as they are right now, it is reasonable to create Wolverine (Ultimate) and condense the AV list section to a lead-style short section, - J Greb (talk) 14:53, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I'm increasingly of the opinion that "Alternate versions of . . ." articles should be actively discouraged by the project. This is because:

    • Variations on the canonical version of the character are done in the context of stories or adaptations, and thus those version are best mentioned there. This assumes the character appears in a substantial role in the story/adaptation; if they are not important to the plot fo the story and are not discussed in secondary sources, they do not need to be discussed in detail in the article (or, if they appear for a few pages like Kingdom Come Aquaman, probably not at all).
    • There is an assumption that the alternate versions of these characters are in themselves notable, when in virtually all instances it is the story/adaptation they appear in that is notable.
    • These articles overemphasize the fictional context of the character (more precisely, they are inherently about how one version of the character differs from the "canonical" version according to in-story details), and lend themselves to excessive plot summaries and fan cruft.

    Thoughts? WesleyDodds (talk) 00:39, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    While I agree with you on a fundamental level, I believe such topics are being split from main articles which are too long as part of an effort to retain information rather than reduce articles. I have no strong feelings about this one way or another, just figured I'd mention that as being a major factor in why these are created in the first place. :) BOZ (talk) 05:37, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    That's true, but by and large the information split off is essentially story detail, which should be kept to a minimum at the first place. I also maintain that discussion of the "alternate versions" is more adequately done at the story/adapation/media article, rather than one large character-based article. WesleyDodds (talk) 06:07, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Follow publication chronology before in-universe chronology?

    After reading a great many articles on comic characters, I think I have identified a common factor that makes these articles more difficult to read and understand than needs to be the case: that character's "story" is told following the in-universe chronology. This would seem, at first glance, like no problem; after all, isn't that the way we write biographies of real people? There's a difference, however, in that the process which creates the real person's biography is reality, and it stays consistent, though our knowledge or understanding of it may change. The "biography" of a fictional character, however, is created by drastically different processes: the comic stories of the 1950s are not the comic stories of the 1970s are not the comic stories of the 1990s are not the comic stories of today, and trying to construct a single, chronological story out of the pieces created in all those different time periods too often creates a confusing patchwork.

    What I would suggest is that, especially in cases where there are long gaps in the publication history, each portion/version of the story is told separately. When dealing with events that are later retconned, we may mention that changes were later made, but concentrate on telling the story according to what was "true" in that publication period. For example, we would cover Bucky's existence as the kid sidekick of Captain America in the 1940s first, because that was published in the 1940s. We would not discuss the "revelation" that Bucky was actually a covert assassin during that time period until much later -- even though current continuity says that that is who Bucky actually was in that time period, it did not become continuity until over half a century after the original comics.

    Not only would this make it much easier to untangle the multiple threads of comic continuity, with their retcons and occasional inconsistencies, it would also be more in line with the overall goals of Wikipedia: namely, writing about real things. Superman is not a real person. There is no actual Superman in our world. However, what is real in our world is the fictional character of Superman; we serve the goals of the project better by describing the existence of the fictional character of Superman, rather than describing it as if it was a real existence. -- 209.6.177.176 (talk) 01:42, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Actually, ideally there shouldn't be a separate "character biography" section at all unless there are enough secondary sources (that is, sources that aren't just the comics themselves and aren't in-universe) to warrant one. WesleyDodds (talk) 02:00, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I think your word "ideally" is highly significant there. There's a lot of stuff that is in Wikipedia that, ideally, would not be. I think an attempt to address the problem of fictional character biographies being incoherent has a chance of working, whereas attempting to address the deeper problem that fictional character biographies are, in most cases, not appropriate, will fail. What can I say? Most contributors don't actually care about the longest-term effects of what they do -- about whether they are actually contributing to a useful guide to real-world matters. We should consider ourselves lucky when contributors are at least willing to avoid doing things that will harm the encyclopedia. -- 209.6.177.176 (talk) 03:19, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    That isn't a valid rationale. Just because people write about what happens in the comics themselves an awful lot doesn't meant that they should. WesleyDodds (talk) 03:30, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    It's all the result of the bad influence of the comic companies' own encyclopedic character guides; people read Marvel Universe and DC's Who's Who, and this, to them, becomes the model for how superhero characters should be written about. Characters guides could be written as histories of publication which, if skillfully written, could also provide the gist of the character's fictional life (with some detail of how reality shaped fiction), and would actually be more interesting and informative than typical character biographies, but this is not the example that has been given to most comic book enthusiasts. I guess that articles of that type don't fit the marketing plans of Marvel and DC.--Drvanthorp (talk) 16:31, 20 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Drvanthorp, what you are suggesting might be doable under a WikiProject_Pulp or Pulp_Magazine or Pulp_Fiction. That seems to be the niche those characters would be adventifiably belong to, and then you might be able to bring in some of the bigger guns such as Doctor Sampson etal? Just a modest suggestion.Netkinetic (t/c/@) 06:18, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I think it is essential that we follow publication chronology. An example of why this is important can be found with Professor X. An in-universe chronology would deal with the events of X-Men: Deadly Genesis pretty early in the section, and thus imply that those events affected most of the information following. In truth, though, Deadly Genesis is a retcon - none of the X-Men comics published prior to it were written with a Professor X who felt guilt about what had happened in Deadly Genesis, and none of the comics' contemporary readers interpreted Professor X as having any sort of guilt about it. To switch to an in-universe timeline fundamentally obscures the actual historical reception of these characters. Phil Sandifer (talk) 13:57, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    List of Avengers members

    Is there an administrator here. I keep on correcting the fact that D-Man was never official a member of the Avengers. An unregister editor keeps on changing. As much as would have like D-Man to be a member, he was not. I have posted to the talk page, this unregister editor still did not response and kept reversing my correction. I finally posted to the IP talk page that he need to read the Talk page and stop making false edits. This person just made some pro D-Man comment with nothing to back it up and once again changed it. Can we block this IP editor or at least lock it from unregistered editors? Spshu (talk) 15:31, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Dunno about that, but you are right in that he was never officially an Avengers member. He hung around them enough (mostly when Cap was involved), but mostly as an associate or reserve/honorary member than someone who could be counted on as an active member on the lineup. BOZ (talk) 15:56, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I cleaned up the language a little, hope you don't mind. I've got the page watchlisted now. If there are further changes to the content by the IP, then there will certainly be the grounds for a block. But, if the IP accepts the current version, there probably wouldn't be any reason to block him. John Carter (talk) 16:03, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't mind any language clean up. Thanks John, for putting a watch on the page. Spshu (talk) 19:30, 20 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    74.69.251.232 has changed it again. I will change it back. So how about that block? Spshu (talk) 15:01, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    By the rules, he can't really be blocked until after he's been notified that his actions might qualify for a block. He has been so notifified now. John Carter (talk) 15:31, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Do we need duplicate members? You've got Hawkeye listed 3 times and the last one one is under ronin. WE should fix it back prior to all the multiple captain amercias or hawkeyes. Brian Boru is awesome (talk) 23:23, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Depends on how the list is structured.
    If the intent is to cover the teams holistically, just a list of every character that's been a member, then Hawkeye should only be there once. And in that case there also should not be a delineation of team iterations.
    If the intent is to present each iteration/version of the team, including when the team is officially disbanded and reformed, then Hawkeye, and a lot of characters are going to be listed multiple times.
    A lot of the team's lists are a hodge-podge of the two types, split by iteration, but the "only one listing per character" being strictly enforced. And a varying degree of real world context. That is, some of the lists are in publication order, others are in the order the characters joined in, whether or not that puts issues out of publication order.
    My feeling is that:
    1. The lists should be split by iteration, with each team listed in full.
    2. The lists not be policed to remove characters that are stricken from the teams by retcon. That's what the notes fields are for.
    3. The lists should be in publication order of first appearance as member of the team, whether they joined in that story or not. Again, this is what the notes field is for.
    4. The code names in a particular iteration be limited to those the character used during that iteration.
    - J Greb (talk) 00:39, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    He (74.69.251.232) is edit it again dispite his latest comment on the talk page there. There are three different Avengers organization: the Chartered version that appeared in The Avengers, the ad hoc version that starts up in New Avengers making no claim to the previous charter(s) and the Initiative started team in Mighty Avengers. Additional with in the incorporated (chartered) original version a second team (West Coast) was formed with the potential for more. Effective, it just a matter of the three organizations sharing a name and the latter two just having their membership list in the same article and the expansion West Coast team of the original incoporated Avengers. So Hawkeye/Ronin gets three entries for joining East Coast team and founding/chairing West Coast Team in the Avenger, Inc. sections and another in the New Avengers section for joining as Ronin. I suppose those joining the West Coast team that had previously joined could just have a note stating that. On the other hand, after a period of probation (as best I could infer from the stories), the West Coast team operated seperately (but under the same corp.) from the East Coast team until Avengers 305 then from Avengers 326 (UN Charter) until disband. Additional, New Avengers and Mighty Avengers could be shifted to their articles or into seperate article (the "Mighty" team list might as well go on the Initiative list. Spshu (talk) 22:16, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with all your points J Greb except for the first. Some members didn't join during big lineup shifts. Probably best to do a straight chronological listing, with members listed alphabeticatlly when they joined in the same issue. WesleyDodds (talk) 00:08, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Small point of clarification: "iteration" for me means when a team is disbanded and later reforms, not just a line up change. For example: the first iteration of the JLA lasted from The Brave and the Bold through to Aquaman dissolving the team in front of the UN. Lots of characters there, and a fair number of examples of characters having their "first appearance as a member" out of sync with when they apparently first joined (Carter Hall and Ander Fel come to mind). But the next iteration, "JLDetroit" would be treated as a separate list, with some characters - Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, and Ralph - getting a second listing. - J Greb (talk) 00:41, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Addendum (edit conflict) After looking at the Demolition Man back and forth and the RfC at Talk:List of Avengers members I cannot stress strongly enough the need to keep as much of a real world perspective as possible. The list should be the characters the stories presented as the team. The debate there seems to be falling into debating off screen, never mentioned bits; assumptions about character motives; fine points about fictional documents; and the like. It reads like a fan dust-up rather than an attempt to write an entry for an encyclopedia. - J Greb (talk) 01:31, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I actually agree with the above. The way the page is structured, unfortunately, lays rather a lot of emphasis on the "official" status, or lack of same, of the various individuals. I think you said elsewhere that you thought that such pages should be structured more clearly chronologically, with maybe, in this case, footnotes to indicate the "official" status of the member. If that's accurate, I certainly wouldn't mind seeing such a comment placed on that page. John Carter (talk) 02:38, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I think it's more out-out-universe if we just do a straight chronological list. At most split it by volume (you would most definitely have to include the "Heroes Reborn" lineup, since they were the stars of Avengers volume 2, regardless of the team's place in canon). WesleyDodds (talk) 00:46, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Going that route, I'd like to see a "Left team" column added. Some of the teams need that given turnover of characters. And, yeah, I know it creates issues with character like Pym who have had sporadic memberships during volume runs.
    I'd also want the "straight chronological [order]" defined, otherwise the argument of "joined" and "appeared as a member" crops up. By way of example:
    • Hawkman in the first JLA (for arguments sake from the first B&B story through the last issue of JLofA vol 1) as the team has been presented over time
      • Katar Hol was added to the team book with JLofA #31
      • Carter Hall was retconed to replace Katar explicitly in JLA: Incarnations #1, though IIRC it was suggested in-story in an issue of Hawkworld vol. 2.
      • Fel Andar, a character introed in 1992, was retconned to replace Katar in appearances in Justice League America and Invasion (1988 and 1989).
    Which way does the chronological order work? To me, a strictly OOU stance would be that Katar should be listed where JLofA #31 falls, and if it is treated as a separate team, Justice League America #19. And then Cater and Fel are at the end of the list, Fel first (Hawkworld vol 2 - 1992) then Carter (JLA: Incarnations #1 - 2001). All three entries would have notes to the retcons applied by DC. - J Greb (talk) 01:31, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Chronological order would be used based on the issue cover dates. Notes can be inserted for retcons. In the case of Hawkman, we'd probably have to say "Fel Andar was a retcon character to replace Katar Hol in the the team. He first appeared as a member of the team in [name issue where character is explicitly called Fel Andar and is placed as a member of the team]." Also indicate that Carter Hall was retconned in to replace Katar Hol, but we probably don't have to list Carter Hall as a separate member, since he is intended to canonically take the place of another (largely in flashbacks). In short, just list Hawkman and explain the whole mess in a footnote. WesleyDodds (talk) 03:24, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Well, Avengers are fictious to begin with, J Greb, and I am citing "on panel" events as what I have read the Avengers during the existance of the by-laws in Annual 11 mostly match said by-laws. Spshu (talk) 16:05, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Language and Literature

    The original category for comic book characters was Social Science and Society, which was then moved to Arts, now it appears "characters" have been moved yet again to Language and Literature under the Lit. sub category. Do we need to change all FA and GA comic related articles to been listed under L&L? Bookkeeperoftheoccult (talk) 02:18, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    In a word, no. I think you're talking about the project directory, and that's really just an index of the projects, not an "official" statement about what each project qualifies as. John Carter (talk) 01:06, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah, its a little confusing, since there are two different categories for "characters." one is a sub-cat of the "arts" and one is of "Lit." Bookkeeperoftheoccult (talk) 06:11, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    RfC at List of Avengers members

    There is an RfC regarding Demolition Man's status as a member of the Avengers at Talk:List of Avengers members#Demolition Man's status. John Carter (talk) 20:30, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Plunderer

    Hello,

    I'll admit that when I first created this article, I didn't put a lot of work into it. However, I do feel that he is a significant character with notability, both for his historical appearances, and for his more recent ones (he's appearing in current issues of Marvel Comics Presents, for one). It got nominated for deletion today, so I've done my best to spruce it up - will try to do more, but not sure what more I can do. If there's anything you can add to make the article worth keeping, your efforts would be appreciated. :) BOZ (talk) 18:59, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    User:TheFarix

    I just noticed that this user recently removed a whole host of Manga articles. The reason he states in his edit summaries that he feels the Comic:Project is redundant alongside the Manga/Anime:Project. I've just spent the past twenty minutes undoing this well meaning mistake and I'd appreciate any help. Stephen Day (talk) 23:02, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Since the Comics project is a parent of the Anime & Manga Wikiproject, isn't that the same as putting something in both a parent and a child category, resulting in overcategorization? --BrokenSphereMsg me 23:05, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't believe there is such a thing as overcatagorization when it comes to Wiki:Projects. The more projects an article can be placed in means that there are more editors that can be potentially exposed to it. This can only benefit an article. Stephen Day (talk) 23:17, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The main flow of traffic that Wikiproject banners cause/are intended to cause is from the talk page to the projects, with the purpose being to give a link to a group of specific editors who will be knowledgeable and interested in the subject of the article so that people with questions about editing the article can find help.
    By putting multiple project banners on a single talk page, not only do you make the talkpage ugly, long, and confusing to navigate, but you water down the utility of every banner on it to the intended audience, editors looking for help with the pages. --erachima formerly tjstrf 23:29, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes and no... Some articles will be of interest of multiple projects. A ready example of this are the creators bio articles, all fall under Comics and Biography, with some falling under specific places or specialty projects. Does it add to the header, yes, but there are templates that can be added when there's lot of valid tags to condense them.
    With Stephen's comment below it looks like the Anime and Manga project came to a consensus that double tag was redundant. I can

    see why, but then I can also see both tag being justifiable. - J Greb (talk) 01:57, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    There are uses for double tags between projects with substantially different focuses, I grant you that. But in the specific case of manga and comics project tagging, the only times a double tag would seem applicable to me would be mangaka who also have published material with western comic companies. And the only author who jumps to my mind as having done that is Tsutomu Nihei, who's contributed to Wolverine and Halo comics in addition to manga. --erachima formerly tjstrf 02:20, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Nevermind. User:TheFarix just informed me that there was a decision to not have articles be a part of both Projects. I wasn't aware of this and I apologize. Stephen Day (talk) 23:20, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    OK, I just undid all of my edits in this regard, except one. I left the Comics tag on the discussion page of Manga outside Japan. After reading the article its clear that the focus of this article goes beyond the narrow scope of the Manga and Anime Project. I feel that that article needs both tags in its discussion page. Stephen Day (talk) 02:57, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    The decision that the tags are redundant should have at least been mentioned here first before it was done because, after all, a separate project is removing this project's tags in huge numbers. WesleyDodds (talk) 08:30, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    It may be redundant, since manga are comics after all. But in my opinion this brings up an important issue: why isn't the anime/manga project closely related to both the comics and cartoon projects? European comics for instance are workgroups within the comics workgroup, if you check out its banner you'll see a link to the comics project, while if you check out the banner of the anime/manga project, you will not see any links to comics nor cartoons. In my view this just reproduces the large barriers between western and eastern comics, seen in too many places outside WP. Zoli79 (talk) 09:41, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    This is not an unreasonable conclusion - I have tended to use the Comic Project header on OEL manga as the Manga Project rejected them as not being manga enough to count. I do agree that some kind of consultation would have been best and also not having closer links with the anime/manga project is weird. One wonders if a solution might be a manga workgroup which could be under a kind of "joint custody" (ditto with anime and TV and/or film). (Emperor (talk) 13:52, 1 March 2008 (UTC))[reply]

    I guess that would be a solution. The question is, what would they say. I don't think manga fans would like any kind of solution where their project is hierarchically under general comics WP. Zoli79 (talk) 16:08, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Well it seems odd it even has to be cast as an "us" and "them" kind of thing. Manga are comics after all. The main issues seems to be that while the Anime/Manga Project makes sense given the cross over appeal it doesn't really leave an easy compromise open and if someone suggested an American film/comic (or Francophone comic/cartoon) project I think people would suggest the best bet would be two workgroups under films and comics which would have heavy crossover. After all if starting from scratch a manga workgroup would have made the most sense. That said the Anime/Manga Project is working and successful so if it ain't broke... Best thing is if we can all discuss this and see how it goes. If they were to create anime and managa workgroups I assume we could add the manga one into our navigation which would help give a more shared approach. (Emperor (talk) 18:37, 1 March 2008 (UTC))[reply]
    Splitting the anime/manga group would be very hard, since its members seem to like it this way. And I guess its fans deal with the matter in a rather character oriented way, just as in the case of superhero comics, than a medium oriented way. Can a workgroup belong to two projects, and function normally? Zoli79 (talk) 18:58, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    The use of tables

    I've run into a few issues on Crossing Midnight over the use of tables which has reached 2 reverts on both sides (and their reverts are sweeping putting back other changes too [1]). WP:TABLE is pretty clear that it should be used for data that lends itself tables (like numbers, etc.) and from discussion in other areas (like the cast lists of films) a more prose approach is generally preferred. I've tried to address this on the CM talk page as plot/storylines shouldn't be in tables either.

    This isn't just an issue with this entry I made similar changes on The Boys (note how the tables aren't flexible enough to deal with all the information, so some of it was being discarded to make it fit) and I notice (from the same editors edits) there are tables for trade collections on DMZ (DC Comics), Scalped, Wasteland (comic), Jack of Fables, Y: The Last Man, The Exterminators (comics), etc. but not on others like Invincible (comics) - apparently they aren't imposing them (just working with what is already there) but are clearly sticking to it once it is in.

    So I don't feel up to editing the various entries only to have them put back and getting to this point again. Instead it seems wise (isn't it always? ;) ) to seek project consensus so we can move things forward.

    My take is that this is that it is against the guidelines given in WP:TABLE and, as The Boys, shows isn't flexible enough to deal with the information available. This also goes for putting plot into table form too.

    And yes I am back but trying to ease myself back in gradually. (Emperor (talk) 13:52, 1 March 2008 (UTC))[reply]

    It looks like two different issues:
    • Arc plot summaries; and
    • Collected edition publication data.
    The Crossing Midnight and The Boys are forcing the prose into table format. Bluntly, those tables could be replaced with a "Plot summary" head and subheads for the arcs/issues.
    As for the rest, and see Justice League, Justice Society of America, and Teen Titans (comics) for others, tables for more than 2 or 3 TPB are a valid way of putting up the short, factual data. - J Greb (talk) 15:40, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I love publication data, bibliographies put into tables. Yes, they are not as flexible, but there's always a possibility for a "note" column, where special notes can be written (e.g. covers added, change of format, ommited pages, etc.). :)
    In the case of plot summaries, for me it seems nonsense. You can highlight the title and number with typography, there's no need for a table. Zoli79 (talk) 16:05, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The problem with its use in collections is that you lose flexibility for little or now gain - in some of those examples, like the Justice League one, if you are just going to list titles and issues collected that isn't a big deal but once you try to add other things it gets inflexible. WP:TABLE is fairly clear on this: "Many times, a list is best left as a list. ... Tables should not be used simply for layout, either. If the information you are editing is not tabular in nature, it probably does not belong in a table." and "If a list is quite long, or is relatively simple, use one of the standard Wikipedia list formats. Long lists can be hard to maintain if they are inside a table, and simple lists do not need the row-and-column format that a table provides."
    Using lists allows for this flexibility, like for example, Squadron Supreme or Alan Moore's DC Universe. The example that concerns me is Hellblazer where most of the entry is a table of trades (although not including alternate ISBNs because of the lack of flexibility), followed by lists of writers, artists, etc. I have often found myself checking the artist list, then having to check up to find if they have an issue collected, etc. A real headache. Using one list would allow for more flexibility and you could do it in half the space (or split it off and really break it down). (Emperor (talk) 21:04, 1 March 2008 (UTC))[reply]
    I'm thinking it depends on what is being presented.
    The bibliographies, by the nature of the information not necessarily being uniform, work better as lists. The Squadron Supreme is a good example since it includes arcs and collected editions.
    The TPB collection lists though are made up of consistent information: Title, Date, ISBN, and and reprinted issues. And even the "extras" (such as "writer") are consistent within the tables if not across articles. The formatting there also allows for quick spotting of missing information.
    The Hellblazer list has a problem with the attempt to list the title of each story collected. That level of indexing isn't need and removing the column would fix some of the issues.
    As for multiple ISBNs... to be honest, that's more of an editor not working with the table formatting than the table being inflexible. If an arc has been published as a hardcover, softcover, and specialty edition, all 3 can be listed in a single cell with notations. - J Greb (talk) 22:00, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, lists might be just as fine in these cases. Since they are easier to make and edit by others I also would prefer them. (Even though I'm still a table fanatic.:) ) Just to show a bibliography, where the table form (in my opinion) is justified: List_of_Valérian_and_Laureline_books. Zoli79 (talk) 23:20, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Melter

    I'm not sure a character that lasted for 23 years is "non-notable." Others may wish to express their opinions at the AfD. Pairadox (talk) 14:55, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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