Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)

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The policy section of the village pump is used to discuss already proposed policies and guidelines and to discuss changes to existing policies and guidelines.

• If you want to propose something new that is not a policy or guideline, use Village pump (proposals).
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Please see this FAQ page for a list of frequently rejected or ignored proposals. Discussions are automatically archived after remaining inactive for two weeks.

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Preference of using OpenStreetMaps

Dear @User:Shannon1 before reverting my edits please discuss here. These maps are preferred because they are zoomable and rich of metadata. If you disagree please discuss. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 15:19, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

@Hooman Mallahzadeh: Hi, can you link me to the Wikipedia documentation or discussion that indicates the OSM maps are "preferred"? The watershed maps are valuable to river articles because they show key information like drainage basin extent, tributaries and topography. I wouldn't be opposed to including both in the infobox, but there appears to be no way currently to display two maps. Shannon [ Talk ] 15:22, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

I should note that in French Wikipedia it is used correctly for Seine, In Japanese used for Arakawa River (Kantō). This is correct use of maps in the year 2024. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 15:24, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

@Shannon1 Policies doesn't say anything. But I can discuss and defend about their preference. Just compare these images:

Traditional map	New Maps

Which of these maps is more clear? The new or the old? Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 15:38, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

I really think that we should create a policy for the preference of OpenStreetMaps over traditional ones. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 15:40, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

I think they serve different purposes, and it would be ideal to have both in the infobox - but there appears to be no way to do this at the moment. The OSM map would be a fantastic replacement for pushpin locator maps like on Walla Walla River. However, it deletes a ton of important information that is displayed in the older watershed map. Can we hold off on any kind of mass replacement until this can be resolved? Shannon [ Talk ] 15:43, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

1. OpenStreetMaps presents the least but most important metadata at each level of zoom.
2. The ability of zooming is only provided by OpenStreetMaps
3. If any change occurs for the river, for example the path changes, this is rapidly applied for OpenStreetMaps
4. language of metadata changes automatically for each Wikipedia
5. and many others. Just let me some time to write them.
6. font-size of text of metadata is automatically adjusted

Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 15:44, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

You should have tried to get agreement for that policy before attempting to impose your preference across a large number of river articles. Kanguole 16:09, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

@Kanguole Ok, we are here for agreement about that. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 16:14, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

@Hooman Mallahzadeh: Please revert the map changes you have made, since they have been challenged and there is so far no agreement for them. Kanguole 21:04, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

If it's an article about a river, the traditional map is more informative. 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 21:01, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

@Shannon1 See, we can have both maps by using "Hidden version of maps in infoboxes"

{{hidden begin|title=OpenStreetMap|ta1=center}}{{Infobox mapframe |wikidata=yes |zoom=6 |frame-height=300 | stroke-width=2 |coord={{WikidataCoord|display=i}}|point = none|stroke-color=#0000FF |id=Q1471 }}{{hidden end}}

that is rendered as:

OpenStreetMap

which yields: (here we hide topological and show OpenStreetMap, but the reverse can be applied)

Seine
The Seine in Paris
Topographical map
Native name	la Seine (French)
Location
Country	France
Physical characteristics
Source
• location	Source-Seine
Mouth	English Channel (French: la Manche)
• location	Le Havre/Honfleur
• elevation	0 m (0 ft)
Length	777 km (483 mi)
Basin size	79,000 km2 (31,000 sq mi)
Discharge
• location	Le Havre
• average	560 m3/s (20,000 cu ft/s)
Basin features
River system	Seine basin
Tributaries
• left	Yonne, Loing, Eure, Risle
• right	Ource, Aube, Marne, Oise, Epte

We can have both maps, one is hidden by default, and the other is shown by default. But I really think that we should show OpenStreetMap and hide others. But in many rare cases that the revert is true, we show topographic map and hide OpenStreetMap. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 15:54, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

We want an edit for Template:Infobox river and use parameters hidddenMap1 and probably hiddenMap2 for implementing this idea. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 16:07, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

I opened a thread on Template talk:Infobox river regarding this. Also pinging @Remsense: who has been separately reverting my edits. Shannon [ Talk ] 16:09, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm merely concerned specifically with the articles I've reverted, I have no opinion on the issue at-large. Remsense诉 16:16, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

@Remsense: I've been on Wikipedia 15+ years and river articles have always used these watershed maps. I'm aware that policies can change but there has been no such discussion at WP:RIVERS or elsewhere. In my view, the watershed map on Yangtze for example is far more informative than the OSM map, which is essentially a better locator map. The Yangtze basin is immense, with dozens of major tributaries, and in this case the OSM map also leaves out the Jinsha that continues for more than 2000 km upstream of Sichuan. (Not because I made the watershed map, necessarily – I just noticed the reversions because of my watchlist.) Shannon [ Talk ] 16:25, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

I'll revert on these pages for now, thank you for the elaboration. Remsense诉 16:35, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

If you really want consistent guidelines (after working out technical issues), put them on WikiProject Geography. A global policy would just be MOS:BLOAT. SamuelRiv (talk) 16:39, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

@SamuelRiv I made a discussion for that here. Thanks, Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 16:51, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

@Shannon1:For my final word, I really cann't read the metadata of this map, because text on it is too small:

unless opening it. So its metadata is useless at the first glance, unlike OpenStreetMap.

• Not sure where to put this comment, because this section is broken with huge amounts of whitespace making it almost unreadable. I just want to mention that i have reverted three or four river map changes by Hooman Mallahzadeh, the summary of the diff indicated that the rather ugly and not as useful Open Street Map was preferable; my summary is "By whom is it "preferred"? Don't think there's a policy on this; until any discussion is finished the better map shouldn't be removed." I see now that a discussion (not a vote at all) has been started here. I'd like to suggest that Hooman Mallahsadeh reverts all the changes they have made of this type until this discussion comes to some conclusion. Happy days, ~ Lindsay^Hello 20:26, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 1: Render both; prefer OSM; hide others

Ok, please vote for this scenario.

"Both topographic and OpenStreetMaps will be rendered in Infobox, but it is preferred to show OpenStreetMap and hide others by using "Template:Hidden begin" and "Hidden end".

For "vote", I asssume you mean "discuss"? 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 21:04, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Agree with proposal 1 re OSM

1. Agree Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 16:23, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Agree OSM is the option that is automated, scales, is multilingual, matches a partner open data / open media project, and which has a community of editors comparable to our own who actively seek to collaborate with us as Wikipedians. We should prefer OSM by default. It is okay for anyone to argue for exceptions, but also, no one should have to argue in favor of including OSM because it is normative. Bluerasberry (talk) 14:46, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

   You've posted what amounts to a non-sequitur: listing some nice things, and then skipping ahead to "we should prefer it by default" without actually having made an argument why we should that references or even acknowledges existing cite norms and policy, never mind any opposing arguments that have been made in this thread. Remsense诉 14:53, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

3. Agree The OSM provides a good, legible summary for the size of the infobox, without the need to click onto it. The watershed maps look great, but only at a larger magnification. They should appear somewhere else prominent in the article at an appropriate scale. I believe that a map could be produced that does the job in the infobox better than either of these alternatives (e.g. a map like the OSM, but with the tributaries also marked). JMCHutchinson (talk) 15:36, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Disagree with proposal 1 re OSM

1.  Disagree The OS map (in the way it is implemented here; don't know if layers in OS can be switched off for this kind of view) shows too much information that is not relevant for river articles (like roads, for example), and not enough information about what these articles are about - rivers. Plus, the watershed maps are just prettier IMO. Zoeperkoe (talk) 18:08, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
2.  Disagree Some maps are better for some things. For example in river or lake articles, the watershed maps are more helpful, but for city maps OSM is probably better. 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 21:03, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

   @Cremastra@Zoeperkoe Why OSM is preferred? Because it is more abstract, and for solving our problems, it is preferred to move from reality into concept. Please read the article Concept. In fact, we want to solve our problems by concepts that only includes main data and lacks redundant data. So certainly OSM maps are appropriately more abstract and finer concept.

   For example, in this image:

   

   The abstracted version of tree is preferred for many applications (question answering) like addressing and others over Cypress tree.

   So. in river Infoboxes, I even propose to use wider lines to remove elaboration of rivers and make a simpler map for its Infobox at the first glance. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 05:22, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

   As someone who also likes the OSM maps in general cases: "read the Concept article" is not a very compelling argument.

   My argument would be that they are more flexible and more immediately maintainable by editors. We can theoretically better control the level of abstraction or detail we need for a given article. I don't mind cracking open the text editor to edit an SVG, but not everyone wants to do that. I've seen enough infobox crimes to know that dogmatism either for maximum abstraction or concretion is counterproductive. Remsense诉 05:28, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

3.  Disagree For users with Javascript disabled (either by choice or by force), OSM maps are useless. No movement, no zoom, and nothing drawn on top of the base tiles. Also no ability to swap between tiles. Please ensure that whatever choice you make fails safely without scripts. 216.80.78.194 (talk) 11:10, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

   When I disable JS in my browser, the maps above still render with the lines indicating the rivers' courses. They do miss the ability to click to see a larger interactive version, but they're not useless. Anomie⚔ 13:22, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

4. OSM map is much less informative for the topic of rivers. CMD (talk) 06:17, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

   @Chipmunkdavis Being less informative is an advantage. The purpose of an Infobox is providing some general information, not detailed information. In an Infobox, only the most important and most readable data should be shown. Other maps can contain details, not the Infobox map. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 06:52, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

   While I think this position is preferable to the other extreme which is far more common in infobox disputes, I think it's a perspective being wielded too dogmatically here. While it's fun when I say things like "being less informative is an advantage" and there's a real sense where that's true, it also misses the point here that no one size fits all when it comes to presenting key information, and a watershed is important information one would like to know at a glance. It's being mischaracterized in my opinion as a detail, what others are arguing is that it is not so. Remsense诉 07:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

   @Chipmunkdavis@Remsense Yes. But the most abstract data version is in the first zoom, if you want more abstract version do "zoom out" and if you need more detailed version, do "zoom in",

   But at the first glance, if is not enough informative, then for example for "watershed", we can use "point locators" on the map. Or for areas we can use area locators. They are added very fast by using new items of Template:Maplink. The same as Shinano_River. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 07:20, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

   I agree it's a potential solution. But we should judge the solution on a case by case basis, rather than making a swap across an entire class of articles now. Remsense诉 07:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

   An in this particular case, the watershed and to an extent tributaries is important and immediately visually readable. CMD (talk) 12:29, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

5. Disagree. I have just been reading a river article i happened to come across (River Wyre) which has made me feel so strongly that i have had to return here and protest these OSM maps, though i had planned not to. The map in that particular article, as well as other river articles i have looked at recently, is not sufficient: It gives no idea of the area drained by the river, there are unexplained dotted and faint grey lines all over it which apparently give no information, and (in this particular case) it is huge compared to the other images in the article. I am rather worried by Hooman Mallahzadeh's statement above, [b]eing less informative is an advantage, which i strongly disagree with; we should be giving our readers an abundance of information and allowing them, if they so desire, to choose what they wish to take away. Happy days, ~ Lindsay^Hello 07:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

   In the context of an infobox it is understandable what they mean. However, the point here is I think it's perfectly reasonable to display a river's watershed in the infobox. Remsense诉 07:54, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

   @Remsense See French Wikipedia at this page https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seine . It displays both start and end with pointer and then in the continuum of Infobox, it discusses start and end of the river. I think this convention of French Wikipedia describes rivers (and also Seine river) fantastic. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 09:02, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

   Remsense, i agree that the infobox should contain the watershed ~ the thing is, if it doesn't, the information (presumably in the form of a map) would need to be elsewhere in the article. The infobox is indeed the logical place to look. Happy days, ~ Lindsay^Hello 13:19, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

   @LindsayH Please do not be surprised about my statement! Just see the Occam's razor article, ending line of the first paragraph:

   "The simplest explanation is usually the best one."

   And this sentence:

   In philosophy, Occam's razor (also spelled Ockham's razor or Ocham's razor; Latin: novacula Occami) is the problem-solving principle that recommends searching for explanations constructed with the smallest possible set of elements.

   And this sentence:

   Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity.

   I don't know what is your major, but this principle is applied to all theories in science. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 08:07, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

   Hooman Mallahzadeh, i think you're possibly misunderstanding Ockham's razor: It says nothing about withholding information to make things simpler, what it means is that given a certain number of observations or facts the simplest explanation which covers them all is to be preferred. So i am still concerned (maybe even more so now) about your desire to give our readers less information. Happy days, ~ Lindsay^Hello 13:19, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

   @LindsayH «Least information» but «most important information», in addition, it should be readable at the first glance, topological maps are usually unreadable at the first glance. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 13:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

   My point is that this aphorism has exhausted its usefulness, and that this should be decided case by case, not as a class. Remsense诉 14:28, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

   Occam's razor has to do with problem-solving. If we apply to everything, then we get rid of everything as being too complicated. Cremastra (talk) 01:34, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

   It's always puzzling to me when people bring up Occam's razor as if it lends any credence to a particular philosophical argument, where it universally translates to "the right answer is probably the one that seems right to me". Remsense诉 01:38, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

   I think it's a useful metric when evaluating if an idea has a lot of edge cases or exceptions. If you can find a different idea that covers the topic without edge cases, it suggests that the "edge cases" aren't actually edge cases but rather refutations.

   That being said, I don't see how Occam's rasor applies to the question at hand. 104.247.227.199 (talk) 10:13, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

6. OSM clearly doesn't include the relevant topographic information. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:57, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
7. Disagree OSM is user generated and in my experience has false information on it, I even tried to sign up to remove it but it's not obvious at all of how to remove place names. A topographical map can't be vandalised unlike OSM. Traumnovelle (talk) 09:04, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

   Agreed the input could be less abstruse, but that sword cuts both ways: can't be vandalized, can't be improved or fixed. Remsense诉 09:08, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

   Well it has been vandalised and it seems not possible to fix. Traumnovelle (talk) 15:43, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

   No, Wikipedia is not like a printed book, and all its information is unreliable. So even "topographical map" may be vandalised. In this aspect "topographical map" is the same as OSM, but a little harder to vandalised. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 11:58, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

   We can control what appears on Wikipedia and on Commons - what appears on OSM is out of our control, and what does appear in my experience has been a bunch of names that are completely bogus. Traumnovelle (talk) 15:44, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

1. I support the inclusion of both, but there is no need to hide one or the other. See the current documentation of Template:Infobox river. The OSM implementation would be a good replacement for the dot locator map, but it does not at all adequately replace a topographical map showing basin-level details. I am aware of the limits of image maps particularly regarding language, but 1) this is the English Wikipedia and this primarily concerns pages in English; 2) replacing existing .jpg and .png maps with SVG maps would enable maps to be easily edited for translation; and 3) if a map isn't available in a certain language, then just using the OSM version is fine. Shannon [ Talk ] 19:00, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

• Please see WP:NOTVOTE. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:26, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

• Yeah, that isn't how policy decisions are made. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:32, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

• Im a huge OSM map fan, but to say that a it is preferred OVER a topographical map goes way too far. editorial discretion as always should apply, and blanket 'rules' for things like this almos always backfire. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 10:19, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 2: Include both (OSM and topographic maps) when appropriate

This seems like it best approaches existing consensus:

When appropriate, both a topographic map and OpenStreetMaps should be included in infoboxes.

Remsense诉 01:07, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

@Remsense Just see how beautiful Japanese Wikipedia introduced the river Shinano_River by this code:

{{Maplink2|zoom=8|frame=yes|plain=no|frame-align=right|frame-width=400|frame-height=600|frame-latitude=36.93|frame-longitude=138.48
|type=line|stroke-color=#0000ff|stroke-width=3|id=Q734455|title=信濃川
|type2=line|stroke-color2=#4444ff|stroke-width2=2|id2=Q11655711|title2=関屋分水
|type3=line|stroke-color3=#4444ff|stroke-width3=2|id3=Q11362788|title3=中ノ口川
|type4=line|stroke-color4=#4444ff|stroke-width4=2|id4=Q11372110|title4=五十嵐川
|type5=line|stroke-color5=#4444ff|stroke-width5=2|id5=Q11561641|title5=渋海川
|type6=line|stroke-color6=#4444ff|stroke-width6=2|id6=Q11437096|title6=大河津分水
|type7=line|stroke-color7=#4444ff|stroke-width7=2|id7=Q3304165|title7=魚野川
|type8=line|stroke-color8=#4444ff|stroke-width8=2|id8=Q11587633|title8=破間川
|type9=line|stroke-color9=#4444ff|stroke-width9=2|id9=Q11561259|title9=清津川
|type10=line|stroke-color10=#4444ff|stroke-width10=2|id10=Q11366441|title10=中津川
|type11=line|stroke-color11=#4444ff|stroke-width11=2|id11=Q11674896|title11=鳥居川
|type12=line|stroke-color12=#4444ff|stroke-width12=2|id12=Q11530256|title12=松川
|type13=line|stroke-color13=#4444ff|stroke-width13=2|id13=Q11571106|title13=犀川
|type14=line|stroke-color14=#4444ff|stroke-width14=2|id14=Q11626952|title14=裾花川
|type15=line|stroke-color15=#4444ff|stroke-width15=2|id15=Q11671931|title15=高瀬川
|type16=line|stroke-color16=#4444ff|stroke-width16=2|id16=Q11444998|title16=奈良井川
|type17=line|stroke-color17=#4444ff|stroke-width17=2|id17=Q11563522|title17=湯川
|type18=line|stroke-color18=#4444ff|stroke-width18=2|id18=Q59404662|title18=依田川
|type19=line|stroke-color19=#4444ff|stroke-width19=2|id19=Q59490451|title19=西川
|type20=line|stroke-color20=#4444ff|stroke-width20=2|id20=Q59537584|title20=黒又川
}}

This includes all sub-rivers. I think this type of maps should be a good sample for all other Wikipedia to introduce rivers. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 13:18, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

I personally quite like this, yes. I'm sure if there's some argument against this, we will be hearing it—I like when other editors hone my aesthetic senses. Remsense诉 13:21, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

It looks very useful. I also stumbled across the Syr Darya page which manages to use both types of map in the infobox using the |extra= field. I would say that's a good, clean way to approach it going forward. Again, I think both types of maps are useful in different ways, and I see no reason to take an absolutist stance and say one or the other should be favored in all cases.

To add, I was kind of rubbed the wrong way at the start of this debate by OP's attitude that new and high tech is always better regardless of the context or usage (not to mention inventing an imaginary consensus which totally threw me for a loop), and as others have commented, this isn't how policy decisions on Wikipedia are made. Finally, as someone passionate about river topics, the auto generated maps just don't tell the full "story". It's nuance and individual approach versus cold standardization. Yes, there are a lot of poorly drawn and inaccurate user-made maps out there (including many of my older maps) which could do well with being replaced, but then there are beautiful ones like Rhine, which provide a value much harder to replace.Shannon [ Talk ] 16:53, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

@Shannon1 Even in the article of Rhine and in the selected map of Infobox, the font is too small and we can't read anything. So aside from choosing OSM or not, between existing maps, the second map i.e., File:Rhein-Karte2.png is more appropriate for Infobox map of this article. I think we should make a policy for selecting between maps, the one that is more abstract, i.e. we apply this policy:

The simplest and most abstract map is the preferred one for Infobox of articles

Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 17:56, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

I have already made my point, so I'll excuse myself from further argument on this thread. As I've stated, I support applying both maps where possible as I believe that provides the best value for the reader. I don't particularly mind if the OSM or topographic map is placed first or second in the infobox. However, I cannot agree with the assessment that "the simplest and most abstract map is preferred" in the context of rivers, which are complex systems that are much more than a simple blue line. Unless a broader consensus can be reached, I maintain to oppose any removal of useful content that have been considered standard on river articles for years. Shannon [ Talk ] 19:56, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

This seems to be the best of both worlds, clear, readable map, with some information about the watershed. - Enos733 (talk) 19:00, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 3: Selection of varous types of "topographical maps" as background for OSM

I think this "alignment scenario" would be perfect:

OSM maps of rivers remains unchanged, but OSM white background could be changed to various topographical backgrounds by users.

Implementing this idea has challenges about setting correct size and challenges of alignment of two maps, but its implementation is not hard. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 10:39, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm sure it can work fine, but I still am not quite understanding why we would need to codify it as policy. Everyone has pretty much re-reiterated their preference for "just figure out what works on a per article basis", and you haven't really articulated why there's anything wrong with that. Remsense诉 10:41, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

@Remsense We should apply a policy is for "the selection of a map between various maps" for Infoboxes, which is for "First Glance Data". Wrong selection could give no data at the first glance. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 10:45, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand. Editors are currently free to decide what is best for each article, as per usual. Unfortunately, I don't think the type of arguments you've made are going to convince other editors that we should restrict editors' flexibility like that. If you want to improve the site, I think working on individual articles and discussing how to improve their maps for each would be more helpful to the site, because I still don't see a need to change sitewide policy. Remsense诉 10:51, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

You said

Editors are currently free to decide what is best for each article, as per usual.

Editors should select what type of map for infobox? In the most cases (over 90%), the «simplest map» is the best for infobox. Do you agree? But in very special cases other maps should be used for Infoboxes. Isn't it better to be a «policy»? Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 11:00, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think so, no. Let editors make their own choices per article. You are working in generally correct principles, but this would be applying them too dogmatically, as mentioned above. Remsense诉 11:02, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

@Remsense But I really think that the selection of File:Bassin Seine.png for Seine river happened in English Wikipedia is wrong. Selection of French Wikipedia for this river is more appropriate, because it provides more data at the first glance. If we apply a «selection policy», such bad selections would not happen anymore. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 11:18, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

...then discuss the merits for that particular map on that particular talk page, like I've suggested several times! That's how Wikipedia generally works. I don't know how else to illustrate that your suggestion seems overly restrictive, and the flexibility seems more worthwhile here, but please try to understand what I'm saying with that, I guess? Remsense诉 12:42, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Closing time

We've had a good time chatting about maps, but it's pretty clear we're not coming to any sort of consensus to change site policy or guidelines. Does anyone object to me sewing this one up? Remsense诉 12:02, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

As a finial word, I propose to provide a "Infobox map selection policy" that selecets a map between OSM and topological maps that satisfies these properties:

1. Readable for texts
2. Less detail with most important data

and some other aspects. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 12:08, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

If (as you admit) there is no clear consensus, then you can't "sew it up" to your personal preferences. In particular "I propose to provide" sounds just like you have a fixed idea that you are trying to impose. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 14:51, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

For clarity, was any of that intended for me? Remsense诉 15:00, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

For clarity, I'd read both yours and Hooman Mallahzadeh's contributions together, for that mix-up I apologise. However it does apply to both unless your sewing up is a finding of no consensus. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 15:19, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

More like a consensus to not to change anything, but the effect is the same. Remsense诉 15:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

No, we should avoid choosing File:Bassin Seine.png for Seine river Infobox as happened in English Wikipedia. We can do that by a general policy. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 15:24, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Consensus contradicts you. Cremastra (talk) 15:26, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

@Cremastra Do you think that selection of File:Bassin Seine.png for Seine Infobox is correct? Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 15:27, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I do, but that's beside the point. The point is that consensus is against your proposal and you need to accept that. Cremastra (talk) 15:28, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I accept or not, this selection may harm Wikipedia. My opinion is not important at all. What is important is that

Are we providing information for readers in the best scientific way?

If the answer is no, and some better way exists, then we are in a wrong way. My opinion is not important at all. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 15:34, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

And your opinion is that some better way exists, other have disagreed with that opinion. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:14, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I completely described advantages of OSM over topological maps above. I really think that we define "better" with advantages and disadvantages. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 17:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Hooman Mallahzadeh, it's not mine intention to be rude, but i am going to be blunt: Do you understand the concept of consensus, the idea that through discussion it is usually possible to discern the community's will? Because throughout this discussion you appear to be ignoring it or pretending that consensus doesn't exist ~ your statement that we should avoid choosing File:Bassin Seine.png for [the] Seine river...[w]e can do that by a general policy ignores both the previous consensus and that developed in this discussion. Please don't take offense at my bluntness, but do take a moment to think that perhaps the will of the community is not with you on this one. Happy days, ~ Lindsay^Hello 17:42, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes you described what you believe the advantages are, and you may consider them to be fact but you failed to convince other editors of that. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:17, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

You cannot assert that consensus should exist from the strength of argument alone, that's why we use consensus as a decision-making mechanism. Sometimes people do not value the same things you do or have the same priorities. It is healthy at least to acknowledge that everyone else that has considered them has found your arguments unconvincing. I would move on. Remsense诉 06:13, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

OSM has the ability of zooming in and out. But for "topological maps" we cann't zoom out but do zooming in with lowering quality. This is one of the worst drawbacks of topological maps. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 15:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Problem of vandalism

@Traumnovelle: Vandalism is problem of all texts inside Wikipedia and outside it in cyberspace and Internet. Unless we have some printed or signed version of data, vandalism happens in cyberspace. I really think that vandalism for OSM can be tolerated, as for other data of cyberspace.Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 15:50, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I've figured out how to remove vandalism from OSM, I still don't like the idea of relying on a third party with different policies and rules, there seems to be no active editors/watchers for this. Traumnovelle (talk) 15:55, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I think advoiding vandalism in OSM and Wikipedia be the same, but I'm not sure. I should do some research about vandalism in OSM. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 15:59, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

If someone adds a false piece of information in an article and I come across it I can click edit, search for the text with ctrl + f and remove it. If someone does the same with openstreetmaps I have to click dozens of tiny boxes and hope I've found the one that has been vandalised. It's like finding a needle in a haystack. Traumnovelle (talk) 16:04, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Well even now it's still tedious given you have to select dozens of areas and hope you've found the one the vandal has added a name to. I've given up on removing it and I still am opposed given how easy it is to vandalise and how tedious it is to deal with. Traumnovelle (talk) 16:02, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Hooman Mallahzadeh, do you have a conflict of interest with Open Street Maps? Cremastra (talk) 17:46, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

How to describe past events on the main page

Currently, the status quo for events listed on the main page is to use the present tense, even if the event in question has definitively ended. I didn't really notice this was an issue until yesterday when I noticed that the main page said that the Solar eclipse of April 8, 2024 is visible through parts of North America. Knowing that it was not currently visible and double checking that the article referred to the event in the past tense, I changed this to was visible. [1] I did not realize that this is against the current consensus at WP:ITNBLURB which says that these events must always be described in the present tense. If one is interested in further background, I encourage them to read this discussion here (scroll down to errors).

I think that this status quo is misleading to readers because it cases like this, we are deliberately giving inaccurate and outdated information. I believe this is a disservice to our readers. The eclipse is not visible anymore, yet we must insist that it is indeed visible. I think that we should also be consistent... If the article for a blurb is using the past tense, we should use the past tense on the main page. Therefore, I propose that events listed on ITN that have definitively ended should be described in the past tense if it would otherwise mislead readers into thinking an event is ongoing. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 11:33, 10 April 2024 (UTC), edited 17:00, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Note: Notification of this discussion was left at Wikipedia talk:In the news.—Bagumba (talk) 12:00, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I propose that events listed on ITN that have definitively ended should be described in the past tense: But any blurb can be written in the past tense, e.g., a country was invaded, an election was won, a state of emergency was declared, etc. So if we did go to past tense, I don't understand why there is a distinction with needing to have "definitively ended".—Bagumba (talk) 12:07, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I made the distinction because I felt our current approach was the most jarring in situations where we're literally misleading the reader. I don't really have any strong preferences either way on other situations and felt like it'd be for the best to make sure my RfC was clear and not vague. I'm not trying to change every blurb at ITN right now, hence the "definitive end date" emphasis. If someone wants more broader changes to verb tense at the main page, I'd say that warrants its own separate discussion. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 12:16, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Note The blurb currently reads A total solar eclipse appears across parts of North America[2]—Bagumba (talk) 12:33, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I was about to suggest a rewording along these lines… so that the blurb is accurate while maintaining present tense. Blueboar (talk) 12:45, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

It's better than flat out saying visible, but this phrasing still implies that it is visible? Present tense when an event has ended implies that an event is still ongoing. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 16:22, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Appear means to start to be seen or to be present.[3] It doesn't say that it continues to be seen. Perhaps the previous blurb's problem was that it resorted to using is, incorrectly implying a continuing state, not that a present-tense alternative was not possble(??)—Bagumba (talk) 06:34, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

To be present is to continue to be seen (by those looking, at least). I think you're misreading that as to start to be seen or present. That second to be matters here (and so it appears bold). InedibleHulk (talk) 22:30, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Support per nom, see no reason to oppose. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:19, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Per below, there isn'ta clear way forward for this one. On one hand, "Liechtenstein wins the FIFA World Cup" should definitely remain that way, but this also causes situations like these. Maybe something like unless this wording directly encourages a misleading interpretation that the event is still ongoing., using an earthquake in present tense and this event in past tense as examples. Or maybe we should just IAR such cases. Aaron Liu (talk) 16:30, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think IAR is going to work as long as we don't have an explicit exemption because it'd be causing someone to explicitly go against consensus for their own ends. I switched the wording to "was visible" out of ignorance in regards to current standards, not because I was deliberately ignoring them. I think there might have been much more ado made about my actions if I had done this with a justification of IAR. I don't have issues with your proposed wording, because again, my biggest issue with all of this is intentionally misleading readers. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 16:39, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

@Aaron Liu: I've changed the proposal to have "if it would otherwise mislead readers into thinking an event is ongoing". Does that address your concerns? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 17:03, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Support, though I find isaacl's alternative of including a time frame intriguing. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:11, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Comment for a lot of blurbs, the present tense is fine, as it continues to be true. e.g. elections, "X is elected leader of Y" is correct and better than past tense, and same with sports matches that end up on ITN. A blanket change to past tense is disingenuous therefore, although swapping to past tense for events that happened (and aren't ongoing) seems somewhat reasonable. Joseph2302 (talk) 13:55, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Isn't "Is elected" past tense? Though I agree that for situations where we can use the active voice, "Z legislature elects X as leader of Y" sounds better. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:05, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

"Is elected" is present tense, specifically present perfect. "Elects" is also present tense, simple present. Levivich (talk) 18:14, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I thought "is elected" is passive voice. Voters are doing the electing, the elected person is passive in this situation. In passive voice "elected" is a past participle (also sometimes called the passive or perfect participle). (Side note: present perfect in English usually takes "have/has" as an auxiliary verb) —⁠andrybak (talk) 23:00, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I think for time-bound events such as the eclipse, including a time frame would be the best approach to avoid confusion. Additionally, I think using past tense is fine. isaacl (talk) 17:09, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I am in favor of past tense for everything. "Won the election," or "landslide killed 200" or "eclipse appeared" all read as fine to me. Newspapers using present tense makes sense because they publish every day (or more often). It doesn't make sense for ITN where items stay posted for days or weeks. Levivich (talk) 18:10, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Something about ITN mostly using present tense just feels... righter. Regardless of staying posted for weeks, they are all quite recent compared to most other stuff we have on the main page. Also see historical present. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:30, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I'll have what you're having. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:30, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

• Decide case-by-case: we can safely IAR in most cases. Cremastra (talk) 19:43, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
• No special rules for the main page: use the same tense we would in articles. We are an encyclopedia not a newspaper. (t · c) buidhe 20:37, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
• Object The present tense serves us well. It is the standard tense for headlines, certainly within the UK and I believe US too (though some MoS in the US is very different to the UK). I can't see anything in the proposal beyond change for the sake of change. doktorb _words^deeds 22:00, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

  Again, it is confusing to say that the solar eclipse is in the sky. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:05, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

  It would be confusing to switch from "is....was....did....has" in a single box on a typical ITN week. doktorb _words^deeds 22:28, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

  A typical ITN week does not have many blurbs that really need the past tense like the solar eclipse. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:37, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

• We should use the correct tense. Someone does not "wins" an election or sports match, they won it. The eclipse, after it ended, was visible over North America, but "is" visible is factually inaccurate at that point (and before it starts to happen, we should say it will be visible). A political leader does not "makes" a statement, they made it. On the other hand, it may be accurate to say that a conflict is going on, or rescue efforts after a disaster are underway. So, we should use the natural, normal tense that accurately reflects the actual reality, as it would be used in the article. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 06:02, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
• Object I don't think I agree with the premise that ITN blurbs are phrased in the present in the first place. It's in the historical present tense. "A 7.4-magnitude earthquake strikes near Hualien City, Taiwan" doesn't give the impression that the ground is still shaking. Nor does "A solar eclipse appears across parts of North America" read as "a solar eclipse is happening right now." Likewise, "Nobel Prize–winning theoretical physicist Peter Higgs (pictured) dies at the age of 94." doesn't need to be changed to "died at the age of 94", we know it's in the past, we're not under any illusions that he's still in the process of dying. It's phrased in such a way that doesn't really imply either past or present and just kind of makes sense either way. If an event is still happening, the blurb makes sense. And if the event is over, the blurb still makes sense. I think that's intentional.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 07:33, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

  Actually, I think that "A 7.4-magnitude earthquake strikes near Hualien City, Taiwan" does give the impression that the ground is still shaking, or at least that it was shaking very recently. Even newspaper headlines avoid that, especially after the first day. "Hualien struck by massive earthquake" is a perfectly normal headline style. In fact, I find these actual headlines in the past tense:

  • Taiwan Struck by Deadly 7.4-Magnitude Earthquake
  • Taiwan shaken but unbowed as biggest quake in 25 years spotlights preparedness
  • Taiwan hit by powerful earthquake
  • Taiwan hit by its strongest quake in quarter-century, but death toll is low
  • Earthquake in Taiwan blamed for at least 9 deaths as buildings and roads seriously damaged
  • Taiwan hit by strongest earthquake in 25 years, killing 9

  WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:00, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

• Keep present tense as general recommendation per above. Discuss individual cases when this is too jarring. —Kusma (talk) 07:43, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
• As an encyclopedia rather than a news agency, I would think past tense fits our vibe more. Archives of our frontpage would remain clearly accurate indefinitely. We are not reporting news, we are featuring a newly updated/written encyclopedic article on currently relevant events. ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 08:22, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
• Keep present tense. There is a difference between "X is happening" (which necessarily means right now, at this moment) and "X happens" (which os somewhat more vague). We should always use the second form, regardless of precise moment. As stated above, we even have statements like "an earthquake hits..." or "So and so dies", both of which are clearly over by the tine it gets posted. Animal lover |666| 19:12, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
• Object from a wp:creep standpoint To my knowledge there is no rule regarding this and it's just a practice. This would change it to having a rule. North8000 (talk) 19:25, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

  How? The present tense rule was always written down there and this proposal does not make ITN a guideline. Aaron Liu (talk) 19:42, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

• No, it should not – it's unencyclopaedic and ungrammatical. The Simple Present is used to describe habitual or continuous actions or states (the Sun sets in the West; he is a boot-and-shoe repairman; I'm Burlington Bertie, I rise at ten-thirty; Timothy Leary's dead etc). Events in the past are described using the Present Past when when no time is specified (the lunch-box has landed; London has fallen; mine eyes have seen the glory ...). When a time in the past is specified, the Simple Past is invariably used: in fourteen hundred and ninety-two, Columbus sailed the ocean blue, in fourteen hundred and ninety-three, he sailed right back over the sea; today, I learned; well I woke up this morning and I looked round for my shoes. This is not rocket science. Ours is not a news outlet with a profit target to meet, we have no reason to have 'headlines', which are simply bits of news given some kind of extra urgency by being in the wrong tense. "Wayne Shorter dies!" immediately begs the question "really? how often?" So "A total eclipse of the Sun has occurred; it was visible in [somewhere I wasn't] from [time] to [time]". It gives the information, it's written in English, where's the problem? (NB there are two distinct present tenses in English, the Simple Present and the Present Continuous; the latter is used for things that are actually happening in this moment or about to happen in the future (I'm going down to Louisiana to get me a mojo hand; I’m walking down the highway, with my suitcase ...). Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:22, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

  @Justlettersandnumbers: Reading your comment makes it sound like it supports of my proposal instead of opposing it? I don't understand the "no, it should not" unless there's something I'm not getting. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 21:10, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

  @Clovermoss The title of your section begins with "Should the main page continue to use the present tense". Aaron Liu (talk) 22:49, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

  And then the actual RfC itself is my proposal to change that for situations where this would be misleading readers. I'm not sure it's necessarily the best idea to be messing around with section names at this point but I'm open to suggestions that would help make this less confusing for people. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 22:53, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

  Eh, never mind. I decided to be bold and make it consistent with how CENT describes this discussion. Hopefully that helps things. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:15, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support Given that WP:ITNBLURB currently has the guideline that "blurbs should describe events in complete sentences in the present tense," it does not seem like instruction creep to modify an existing rule. isaacl recommends including a time-frame, but I find this impractical for events that occur over multiple time zones. While this eclipse's article reports the event's span over the overall planet in UTC, this level of detail is too cumbersome for a main page blurb. Clovermoss' proposal limits itself to cases where the present tense would be confusing, which is preferable to an individual discussion for each perceived exception to the current guideline. BluePenguin18 🐧 ( 💬 ) 20:50, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
• Yes, the practice should continue - this is a perfectly normal idiomatic feature of English. Headlines are written in the present tense, just like 'in which...' in the chapter sub-headings of old novels, the summaries of TV episodes in magazines and on streaming services, and lots of other places where a reported past action is summarised. GenevieveDEon (talk) 21:33, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
• How about, "is seen over North America" -- passive with present tense and past participle, anyone? :) Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:49, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

  That's a better solution than ending the practice of using the historical present tense. Though I think that suggestion is more likely to be implemented at WP:ERRORS than through a Village Pump policy proposal. (I'm also not entirely sure why this whole discussion isn't just at the ITN talk page since it doesn't affect any other part of the main page, but it's no big deal)  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 20:10, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  ERRORS is not the appropriate venue, given that the discussion that was there was removed. As for why it's here specifically, I figured anything regarding the main page was important, that a discussion here would invite more participants, and avoid the possibile issue of a local consensus. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 20:16, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  I originally thought this suggestion was sarcastic, given the smiley face. If it is serious, I dislike it because "is seen" is extremely passive voice. Assuming there is a problem (which I don't think there is), the solution is not passive voice. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 20:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think passive voices are that bad; while I agree that the active voice is usually preferred, do you really think that "North Americans see a total solar eclipse" is better? Aaron Liu (talk) 21:32, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  No. I think that the current iteration "A total solar eclipse appears across parts of North America" is perfect. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 21:37, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  I was illustrating why the passive voice doesn't deserve to be demonized. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:42, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  In fairness, that discussion was removed specifically because ITN uses present tense and the discussion was proposing to change that, and ERRORS isn't the place for proposals to change how we do things. Alanscottwalker's suggestion also uses the present tense, so ERRORS would be a fine venue if they really wanted to see that change made. After all, that discussion at ERRORS is what resulted in the language being changed from "is visible" to "appears". I personally think appears is totally fine (I agree with CaptainEek that there is no problem), but if someone prefers "is seen", that's the place to do it.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 20:33, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  That discussion only happened because I changed "is visible" to "was visible", prompting an errors report. I'd prefer "appeared" over "appears" since that implies that it is still indeed visible per the above discussion. It's better than "is visible", though. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 01:07, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

• Keep present tense as ITN is supposed to summarize and collect news headlines and the present tense is standard in headlines. Pinguinn 🐧 00:05, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
• Keep using historical present I think a lot of supporters here are confusing the historical present (often used in news headlines) for the simple present. I would agree that the eclipse would have made sense to be an exception to that general rule, as was the focus in the original proposal here, but I wouldn't change the general rule. Anomie⚔ 12:04, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  Currently, in this proposal, I see a codified exception for when using the present tense would be confusing that would only apply in cases like the solar eclipse. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:43, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  @Anomie, the lead of our article on the historical present says the effect of the historical present is "to heighten the dramatic force of the narrative by describing events as if they were still unfolding". I'm not convinced that making things sound more dramatic should be a goal for an encyclopedia, and I would not have guessed that you would support such a goal. Do you? WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:09, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

• Keep historical present tense Headlines are most compelling and appropriate in the historical present tense. The NYTimes provides that "Headlines are written in the historical present tense. That means they written are in present tense but describe events that just happened."
  Out of curiosity, I perused the AP Stylebook (56th edition, 2022-2024), which surprisingly had almost nothing to say on tenses, though its section on headlines is generally instructive.

  "Headlines are key to any story. A vivid, accurate and fair headline can entice people to dig in for more. A bland, vague or otherwise faulty headline can push readers away. Often, a headline and photo are all that many readers see of a story. Their entire knowledge of the piece may based on those elements. Headlines must stand on their own in conveying the story fairly, and they must include key context. They should tempt readers to want to read more, without misleading or overpromising."

  How to best have a vivid headline? Present tense and active voice! One of Wikipedia's most frequent writing errors is using past tense and passive voice out of a misplaced assumption that it is more encyclopedic. But past and passive are weak. Present and active are better, and are what I have been taught in a wide multitude of writing courses and professional spaces. To add to the NYTimes, AP, and personal experience, I consulted my copy of Bryan Garner's Redbook (4th ed.), which while meant as a legal style guide, is useful in other areas. Regarding tense, in heading 11.32, it provides that "generally use the present tense." I then turned to the internet, which backed up the use of present tense in headlines: Grammar expert suggests present tense "Engaging headlines should be in sentence case and present tense." Kansas University on headlines: "Present tense, please: Use present tense for immediate past information, past tense for past perfect, and future tense for coming events."
  Using the historical present is best practice for headlines. That's not to say that there can't be exceptions, but they should be rare. As for the eclipse, it properly remains in the historical present. As a further consideration: if we are updating ITN tenses in real time, we are adding considerable work for ourselves, and we push ourselves truly into WP:NOTNEWS territory. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 18:35, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think we're adding considerable work for ourselves. It takes a second or two in the rare situations that require it, anything else regarding the main page has much more work involved. We already update the articles in question, just not the blurb, which is a bit of a jarring inconsistency in itself. I don't understand the argument that the tense we should be using should be comparable to newspaper headlines because we're NOTNEWS? Could you elaborate a bit on your thinking there? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:43, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  For the last part: they're mistaken that this proposal would require tenses to be updated to the past tense when any event ends, which is way too much effort to stay current which kinda does fall into NOTNEWS. (Note that this proposal would only require past tense if the historical present causes confusion) Aaron Liu (talk) 19:50, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  We are NOTNEWS. But as my comment above alludes to, ITN is a de facto news stream. Each entry in ITN is effectively a headline. Why try to reinvent the headline wheel? I'm afraid I have to disagree with Aaron's clarification, because Clover did change the tense after the event ended. It would have been incorrect to say "was" when the blurb first posted...because the eclipse was presently happening at that time. I'll add further that "otherwise mislead readers into thinking an event is ongoing" is an unhelpful standard. I don't buy that the average reader is going to be confused by a historical present headline. We read headlines all the time, and the average reader understands the historical present, even if they couldn't define it. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 20:18, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  I have to disagree with you there. I think that when the main page stated that the eclipse "is visible", that was confusing to the average reader. It confused me, prompting me to check that the eclipse wasn't somehow ongoing. We were giving inaccurate information intentionally and I honestly don't see why we do this for the main page. Because it's interesting? Because newspapers do it before an event happens? Once the eclipse ended, newspapers referred to the event in the past tense as well. My decision to change it to "was visible" took one second (so not a considerable time investment, although everything that ensued certainly has been). Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 20:32, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  Ah, that's my bad, the "is visible" language is also problematic for its passivity. I like the "appears" solution, and thought that was the original wording. But I think it would be improper to say "appeared." I'm not so sure I buy that newspapers were uniformly using past tense; again, the best practice for newspapers is to use the historical present. The time issue is ancillary to the best practice issue, I agree that the real time sink is the discussions that will surely result from implementing this rule. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 20:42, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  I could show some examples if you'd like, since you don't seem to buy that newspapers were using the past tense after the eclipse appeared.

  • "A total eclipse of a lifetime appeared for hundreds of thousands of visitors and residents in the Hamilton-Niagara region" – Canadian Broadcasting Corporation [4]
  • "In middle America, the eclipse was a phenomenon" – Washington Post [5]
  • "During the event on April 8, 2024, one of these arcs was easily visible from where I stood, agape beneath our eclipsed, blackened star, in Burlington, VT." – Mashable [6]
  • "The great American eclipse appeared Monday, bringing the nation to a standstill as photographers captured stunning shots of the rare celestial event." – CNET [7]
  • "The total solar eclipse that swept across Mexico, the United States and Canada has completed its journey over continental North America." – CNN [8]

  I think that "appears" is better than saying "is visible" like the previous phrasing was before my intermediate change of "was visible" but it still runs into the issue of implying the eclipse is appearing somewhere. I agree with what InedibleHulk said above To be present is to continue to be seen (by those looking, at least). I think you're misreading that as to start to be seen or present. That second to be matters here (and so it appears bold). Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 21:14, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  The operative issue is that these are headlines from after the event. But the blurb got posted during the event. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 21:19, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  And the blurb stays days or weeks on the main page, where using the past tense would be more accurate than using present tense the entire time. I also think that having a clear exemption clause would prevent time sink discussions like this one, not cause them. It'd prevent us from needing to have a discussion every time something like this happens. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 21:25, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  I think that this discussion would prevent some time sink over reluctance to IAR. And again, only a small number of events would need their tense changed. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:34, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

• Drop present tense and use the tense we'd use anywhere else on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a newspaper, even on the Main Page, and there's no reason we should obscure the timing of events for stylistic reasons. Loki (talk) 21:18, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  The tense we'd use anywhere else is, by default, present? WP:TENSE provides that By default, write articles in the present tense. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 21:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  MOS:TENSE says By default, write articles in the present tense, including those covering works of fiction (see Wikipedia:Writing better articles § Tense in fiction) and products or works that have been discontinued. Generally, use past tense only for past events, and for subjects that are dead or no longer meaningfully exist. We use past tense for past events like we do at the actual article linked in the ITN blurb: Solar eclipse of April 8, 2024. It's just the main page where we make the stylistic choice to not do that. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 21:31, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

• The present tense makes the main page read like a news ticker, which we are often at pains to explain it is not (e.g. WP:NOTNP). I would favour the past tense for all events that are not ongoing. If we cannot agree on that, I support the proposal to use the past if there might be a misunderstanding (partly in the hope that familiarity will lead to the past tense being used more and more in the future!). JMCHutchinson (talk) 11:06, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
• Support Per WP:NEWSSTYLE, "As a matter of policy, Wikipedia is not written in news style ..." . ITN is especially embarrassing because its blurbs are often weeks old and so its use of the present tense is then quite misleading. It might help if the blurbs were dated to show how old they are. See OTD and the Spanish edition for examples. Andrew🐉(talk) 07:38, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
• Support the thing Clovermoss said we should do (to head off any confusion about whether "support" or "oppose" means to support or oppose making or not making a change, etc). jp×g🗯️ 06:30, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose any firm rule. The same style is used in the not-so-current-events sections of year pages, or at least those I've checked so far:
  • From 520: The monastery of Seridus, where Barsanuphius and John the Prophet lived as hermits, is founded in the region of Gaza
  • From 1020: King Gagik I of Armenia is succeeded by Hovhannes-Smbat III.
  • From 1920: A woman named Anna Anderson tries to commit suicide in Berlin and is taken to a mental hospital where she claims she is Grand Duchess Anastasia of Russia.
  • From 2020: A total solar eclipse is visible from parts of the South Pacific Ocean, southern South America, and the South Atlantic Ocean.
• Now maybe I'm being a bit OTHERSTUFFy here and it's year pages that should be fixed, but until that's done, it would seem really weird to describe 1000-year-old events with "is", but events from last week with "was". Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 21:48, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

  None of these except the 2020 one can be mistaken as things that are currently happening. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:20, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

• I think we should use the past tense for some events (e.g., any event that is definitively "finished") and present tense for those that are ongoing. I didn't see a single clear argument above for using the present tense for things that are completely finished [correction: except for CaptainEek, who wants to use historical past for the "vivid" dramatic effect]. There are comments about what label a grammarian would apply to it, and comments saying that this is the way we've always done it, but no comments giving a reason for why it's better for readers if we say that a ten-second earthquake from last week "is" happening instead of that it "did" happen. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:50, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

  Because the historical present is a convention in English, period. There's also consistency with lists of past events, which also blocks useful things like moving navboxes to the See also. Aaron Liu (talk) 00:53, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

  The historical present is a convention in English. It is not the only convention, which means we could choose a different one. Why should we choose this convention? WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:01, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

  For consistency and compactness. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:51, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

  The amount of compactness is usually one character – the difference between is and was, or elects and elected. In other cases, it's the same or shorter: shook instead of shakes for earthquakes, died instead of dies for deaths. I don't think that sometimes saving a single character is worth the risk of someone misunderstanding the text, especially since we get so many readers who do not speak English natively.

  As for consistency, I think that being easily understood is more important than having parallel grammar constructions across unrelated items. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:28, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

  The historical present is not the convention anywhere on Wikipedia's main page. Just see today:

  • TFA: "The Nicoll Highway collapse occurred in Singapore...
  • DYK: "...librarian Amanda Jones won an award..."
  • OTD: "South African Airways Flight 228 crashed shortly after take-off ..."

  ITN is the only possible exception and it's not using the historical present because it's not referring to history.

  Andrew🐉(talk) 12:37, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

• I don't think anything needs to be changed here style-wise, we just need to write better ITN blurbs. "Solar eclipse is visible" isn't the historical present and it isn't sensible either. -- asilvering (talk) 06:21, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
• Not sure why this discussion isn't happening at WT:ITN, but stick with simple present as we have done for years. Stephen 09:49, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

  A notification has been at Wikipedia talk:In the news#Blurb tense for a while now. Putting this here attracts more attention.

  Most blurbs will not need to be changed to the past tense. Only things like "is visible" need to be changed. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:54, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

• The historical present should be taken behind the barn, shot, burned, and the ashes scattered to the four winds. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:02, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Violently expressed dislike is not the same as a reasoned argument. The historic present is used widely in headlines, timelines, and other applications both on this site and elsewhere which are comparable to the ITN headlines. GenevieveDEon (talk) 14:16, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Using present tense for completed events is ridiculous (which is even worse than wrong), no matter how much it may be used elsewhere. --~ User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:43, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

But Wikipedia cares about consistency, present tense saves characters, and most events will not be confused as ongoing. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:48, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

As I showed above, the present tense only occasionally saves characters, and the number of characters saved is most often one (1).

In my experience, the English Wikipedia cares more about clarity accuracy than about consistency. There are ~650 pages citing Emerson: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." (And now there is one more.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:30, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

As you've said, I can't really articulate my thoughts on why we should use the historical present. I guess that's because not all grammar rules and conventions make sense either, yet they're usually prescribed. The most sense I could make is sort of "vividness": they emphasize that these events happen in the present day, as opposed to most of our content on the main page.

I also wish that Wikipedia didn't care so much about consistency, but it seems that we do, which has led to navboxes not being moved to the see also section and nearly all of them turned into the standard purple. Maybe that made me think to consistify the consistency. Aaron Liu (talk) 00:01, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

The rest of the main page uses past tense to refer to events that have occurred. The articles use the past tense to refer to past events. In the News isn't an up-to-the-moment news ticker; it points out articles that are related to current events. isaacl (talk) 00:14, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Past, yes, but as you said they’re related to current events. These events are much more current than the rest of the main page and historical present emphasizes that.

Hopefully we have a rough consensus to at least put “otherwise confusing blurbs can you use the past tense” into the rules. Aaron Liu (talk) 00:17, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

The point is for the main page, using the same tense as the rest of the page, as well as the underlying articles, would be consistent. isaacl (talk) 01:26, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

The main page is just a reflection of the rest of the site. We don't need to force everything on the main page to be the same, and the underlying lists of stuff linked above also use historical present. Aaron Liu (talk) 11:14, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

The main page is just a reflection of the rest of the site. My understanding is that ITN blurbs are literally the only place we enforce this stylistic choice. It's inconsistent with the actual articles linked in the blurb. [9] I can't help but think that if this situation was the other way around (the status quo was to be consistent) that people would find the arguments for this unconvincing. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 11:19, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Most of the site doesn't use blurbs, but all the year articles do. See Suffusion of Yellow's comment above. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:27, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I suppose then my question is if there's a consensus for year pages that things must be done that way then because it's not otherwise a stylistic choice you see outside of ITN blurbs. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 15:02, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

You brought up consistency as an argument. I feel a reader will notice inconsistency amongst sections of the main page more readily than between the In the News section and the year articles. There's no navigation path between the latter two, but readers can easily jump between sections of the main page. isaacl (talk) 16:26, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

• Retain historical present. ITN blurbs are intentionally written in the style of news headlines, and that makes most sense given global usage on this point. It would be silly for Wikipedia to have a set of news items written differently from how every other outlet writes its news items. Cases like the eclipse can be handled on an individual basis, by rewriting the blurb into an alternative historical present form that removes the implication of ongoing nature. Arguably that blurb was simply badly structured in the first place as a normal headline wouldn't contain the word "is".  — Amakuru (talk) 09:50, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  Wikipedia is not trying to be a news outlet; it's an encyclopedia. The correct comparison is then with a site like Britannica. Today, this opens with coverage of Passover:

  April 23, 2024
  Different from All Other Nights
  Last night marked the beginning of the Jewish holiday of Passover, which commemorates the Hebrews’ liberation from slavery in Egypt and the “passing over” of the forces of destruction, or the sparing of the firstborn of the Israelites, on the eve of Exodus. This year’s celebration occurs against a backdrop of conflict—today also marks the 200th day in the Israel-Hamas War—and heightened concerns of rising anti-Semitism.

  This makes the temporal context quite clear by dating the item and then using tenses accordingly -- the past tense for "last night" and the present tense for "today". Presumably tomorrow they will have a different item as their lead to reflect the fact that the present has moved on. This seems exemplary -- quite clearly explaining what's happening today specifically.

  Andrew🐉(talk) 11:05, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  What about the present tense of "occurs"? I don't think a very long holiday is a good example.

  Looking at a few of their MP blurbs, most of them are anniversaries. Hopefully someone can find more examples of current events. Aaron Liu (talk) 11:13, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  It's just a matter of looking. Today, Britannica has another holiday as its featured article – Arbor Day. But it also has a section Behind the Headlines which is similar to our ITN in covering current affairs. This consistently uses the past tense:

  Question of immunity

  As Donald Trump sat in a Manhattan courtroom for the hush-money case regarding Stormy Daniels, the Supreme Court heard arguments as to whether the former president was immune from prosecution...

  Weinstein trial

  The 2020 rape conviction of Harvey Weinstein in New York was overturned on Thursday...

  Falling down the rat hole

  Chicago’s “rat hole”—a section of sidewalk bearing the imprint of a rat—has been shuttered...

  Andrew🐉(talk) 22:11, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

• Use historical present I don't see why WP:NOTNEWS is being brought up, because in that case surely we should be advocating for the elimination of a section titled "In The News"? If ITN continues to exist, it should use the style common to most respected news publications—the historical present. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:07, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
• Not broken, don't fix. In the vast majority of cases, the current approach works perfectly fine and without any chance of confusion. In the very few cases where the blurb phrasing is ambiguous, that can be brought up at WP:ERRORS and an appropriate rephrasing found. We don't need a new rule here. Also, this RFC confuses ITN with the Main Page - present tense is only used in one section of the MP. Modest Genius ^talk 12:53, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

  All this does is make the present-tense rule less stringent so that it'd be easily overridden if needed. That's also what this new "rule" says. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:59, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

  ITN is part of the main page. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 15:51, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

  I think what Modest is getting at is that "on the main page" is too general and may be misinterpreted to be about the entire main page. However, I don't think we should change the section header this far into the discussion either. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:52, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: I was curious about the assertion that most news organizations use the present tense, so I did a quick survey:
  • NYT: mix of present and past
  • AP: present
  • Reuters: present
  • BBC: mix
  • The Times: mix
  • LA Times: mix
• (NB: I'm not watching this page, please ping.) LittlePuppers (talk) 17:03, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
• I noticed that the main page is currently using the past tense to describe an event (usage of seen in regards to the aurorae). My proposal supports this usage but it goes against the current version of the special rules for ITN which is always use present. I suppose my point is that the world hasn't ended and that I think my proposal still has merit. I also think this is leagues better than implying the aurorae is visible or appearing, which was my whole gripe with how we described the solar eclipse when it was on the main page. I'm not sure if this is a sign that my proposal has made any strides in convincing people that certain cases may warrant an exemption or if this will be considered an error that someone will try to fix. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 14:36, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

  "Seen" is used somewhat as the participle here, so while I agree, I don't think this violates the current rules. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:41, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

  Wouldn't it be considered to be past participle, though? The current rules don't allow for anything to be written outside the present tense. Hopefully I'm not making a fool of myself and missing something obvious? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 14:48, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

  A series of solar storms impact Earth, creating aurorae (pictured) seen further from the poles than usual. Most of this reads to me as present tense, except the usage of "seen". However, I won't outrule the possibility I'm stupid and not understanding how English works. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 14:56, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

  The verb that functions as a verb in the sentence is "impact", which is in the present tense. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:20, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

  I'm confused about what you mean by this. I understand what you're saying here but I don't understand the broader relevance to what I was talking about. I think I need to learn more about how the English language works, then. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 15:44, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

  With hidden words, apparently. You can read that clause as "which were seen" or "which are seen", thus letting everyone believe that this clause was written "their" way. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:32, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

  This does make sense to me. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 12:51, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

• Discussion on this seems to be dying down a bit, so I decided to go through and reread the above discussion. It seems there's 14 people for my proposal and 14 against it. Obviously I'm biased here but I think there's stronger policy-based arguments on my side of the debate: WP:NOTNEWS, WP:NEWSSTYLE, MOS:TENSE, and consistency with almost every other part of the project. The arguments on the opposing side for keeping WP:ITNBLURB the way it is without any exemptions include: not broken, historical present/active writing sounds better, and that some newspapers use this in their version of ITN. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 12:51, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Upgrade SCIRS to a guideline

Notified: centralized discussion. Atavoidturk (talk) 15:11, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (science) has been stable for years and is widely cited on article and user talk pages. It's in many ways similar to WP:MEDRS, which is a guideline. Isn't it time to bump SCIRS to guideline status too? – Joe (talk) 11:22, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

• I've left notifications about this proposal at the SCIRS talk page, WikiProject Science and WT:RS. Thryduulf (talk) 15:15, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

• I'm in general in favor of it, though it'll probably need some eyes going over it before going to guideline status, especially on cautions about using primary sources. Obviously a little more relaxed than WP:MEDRS, but not carte blanche use or outright encouraging primary sources either.

I have some guidance on my user page in the sourcing section that might be helpful there. In short, primary journal articles have their own mini-literature reviews in the intro and to some degree discussion/conclusions. When you are in a field that doesn't have many literature reviews, etc. those parts of sources can be very useful (e.g., entomology topics for me) for things like basic life cycle or species information. It's a good idea to avoid using a primary article for sourcing content on the findings of the study itself since it's not independent coverage though. That's not meant to be strict bright lines if it becomes guideline, but give guidance on how primary sources are best used if they are being used. If someone wants to use/tweak language from my page for updates, they'd be welcome to. KoA (talk) 16:20, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

I think we could say that in that circumstance, such as a paper is both a secondary source (in its discussion of other literature) and a primary source (in its results). I agree that the section on primary sources could be fleshed out, but I don't think it should be a blocker to giving it guideline status now (guidelines are never complete). – Joe (talk) 06:21, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

My thoughts exactly too in that it's an improvement that can be made independent of guideline or not. It would be a simple addition like you put, but it would also preempt concerns that sourcing would somehow be severely limited, which it functionally would not be.

If anything, much of what I mentioned here or at my userpage already addresses what has been brought up in a few opposes below. KoA (talk) 17:19, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. Maybe it's stable because we are free to ignore it. Maybe any useful advice in it is just what's already in other PAGs. Maybe we already have enough guidelines. WP:MEDRS was a bad idea too but at least had the excuse that dispensing bad health advice could cause legal problems; outdated cosmological theory has a somewhat smaller effect. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 17:51, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support. This is necessary due to the huge and growing problem of the flood of unreliable research. As an engineer I edit scientific WP articles, and I waste an enormous amount of time dealing with noobs who come across some unsupported claim in a paper or sensationalist "science" website and are determined to put it in WP. And more time on pseudoscience advocates who dig up obscure papers that support their delusions. And more time on researchers trying to promote their careers by inserting cites to their own research papers in WP. In science today primary sources (research papers) are worthless, due to p-hacking the vast majority in even top journals are never confirmed. This needs to be reflected in our guidelines. --Chetvorno^TALK 20:51, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support but... So unlike wp:ver & wp:rs (which require certain trappings and not actual reliability) we're going to require actual reliability for science articles? Requiring actual reliability puts it in conflict with wp:Ver and wp:RS.  :-) North8000 (talk) 21:06, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

  It's not my understanding that guidelines create "requirements", just offer best practices supported by consensus (WP:GUIDES). – Joe (talk) 06:09, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support. Many longtime editors do not realize or refuse to acknowledge that primary sources should only ever comprise a small fraction of sourcing for an article. We also regularly have editors insisting various basic biology topics "aren't governed by MEDRS" because they don't have an immediate clinical relevance, and therefore the findings of primary research papers are acceptable. Having an actual guideline to point to that is more explicit on this would be helpful. JoelleJay (talk) 00:57, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  This is also what I've found WP:SCIRS most useful for over the years. WP:PSTS is established policy, but it's not immediately obvious how to apply it to scientific topics without the extra guidance in WP:MEDRS or WP:SCIRS. We end up with sections that are just runs of "A 2017 study found, ..." then "A 2020 study found, ..." with no information on if any of those findings have achieved scientific consensus, because people see a journal article and assume that because it's reliable you can use it without qualification. WP:SCIRS clarifies which types of journal article are primary and which are secondary, and therefore how we should be using each type. – Joe (talk) 06:16, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Contra Joe Roe above, I think that Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (science) isn't an useful guidance on how to use primary vs secondary. In natural sciences, you tend to have articles that include a summary or review of existing science, followed by a paper's own conclusion - which by its very nature cannot say whether its findings have been widely accepted or not. That is, the same source is both primary and secondary, depending on which information you take from it. The essay isn't aware of this point. The problem with popular press isn't secondary/primary, either; rather that it tends to exaggerate and oversimplify i.e a reliability issue. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 06:57, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  We could just add that point? – Joe (talk) 07:06, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  That would be a root-and-branch rewrite, as the idea of them being two separate kinds of sources is woven in its entire structure. In general, I think that WP:PSTS is a problem as it takes a concept mostly from history and tries to extrapolate it to other kinds of sources which often don't neatly map on it. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:15, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  If a primary source has a "summary or review of existing science", that existing science will be available in secondary sources, which are what we should use.--Chetvorno^TALK 07:36, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  I don't see anything in WP:SCIRS or WP:PSTS that precludes a source being primary in some parts and secondary in others? WP:PSTS explicitly acknowledges that a source can be both primary and secondary at the same time: A source may be considered primary for one statement but secondary for a different one. Even a given source can contain both primary and secondary source material for one particular statement.. KoA observed the same thing above. It's a good point, and worth noting, but I think it can be easily achieved with an extra paragraph in WP:SCIRS#Basic advice, no rewrite needed. – Joe (talk) 08:26, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  Only in well-covered fields. In less well covered ones like remote volcanoes, you often have one research paper that summarizes the existing knowledge before introducing its own point. But this guideline would apply to every field, not just the well-covered ones. ^It's not enough for the guideline to acknowledge the existence of "hybrid" sources; that's still assuming that most aren't hybrids and will mislead people into trying to incorrectly categorize sources. It's an undue weight issue, except with a guidance page rather than an article. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think I'm fully understanding you. A volcanology paper that summarizes the existing knowledge before introducing its own point is both a secondary source (in the first part) and a primary source (in the second part). How is this different from other fields? – Joe (talk) 10:20, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  Sorry, that was addressing Chetvorno. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:45, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  I think the vast majority of people citing primary sources are citing them for their research findings, not their background sections. In the rare cases where they are citing the latter, if the material is contested on SCIRS/PSTS grounds then the editor can just point to where we say otherwise-primary sources can contain secondary info and say that's what they're citing. JoelleJay (talk) 16:18, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  The trouble with the 'secondary' material in primary sources, is that the authors almost invariably spin it to align with their (primary) research conclusions. It should generally be avoided in favour of dedicated secondary sourcing. Bon courage (talk) 03:23, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

  I'm a bit short on time until next week, but I'd be willing to draft something based on my userpage (though a bit more flexible/advisory) if someone else doesn't get to it. KoA (talk) 17:29, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. <rant>The essay is an example of the primary vs secondary fetish that pollutes much of our policy. Actually there are very few things disallowed for primary sources that are not also disallowed for secondary sources. The rule should be "use the most reliable source you can find and refrain from original research". Instead, endless argument over whether something is primary or secondary replaces rather than informs discussion of actual reliability. So we get editors arguing that a newspaper report of a peer-reviewed journal article is better than the journal article itself, favoring the least reliable source for no good reason. Secondary reports of research are useful, for example they may contain interviews with experts other than the authors, but they are not more reliable than the original on what the research results were. Review articles are great, but rarely available. It is also not true that the existence of secondary reports helps to protect us from false/fake results; actually is the opposite because newspapers and magazines are more likely to report exceptional claims than ordinary claims.</rant> Zero^talk 10:28, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  Well, it seems this is a common bugbear. Personally I've found the primary vs. secondary distinction very useful in doing exactly that, avoiding original research, but clearly others' mileage vary. Although it should be pointed out that, apart from discussing primary and secondary sources, WP:SCIRS strongly discourages using media coverage of scientific results (Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources_(science)#Popular_press), so someone arguing that a newspaper report of a peer-reviewed journal article is better than the journal article itself would not find support in this essay.

  In any case, isn't the objection you and Jo-Jo Eumerus are articulating really against WP:PSTS, not WP:SCIRS? Not recognising a guideline because it fails to deviate from a policy would be... odd. – Joe (talk) 10:52, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  If the policy is questionable, making a guideline that emphasizes the problematic aspects in a field where the problematic aspects are particularly problematic is making a problem worse. FWIW, while newspapers aren't my issue with SCIRS, I've certainly seen people claiming that news reports on a finding are secondary and thus to be preferred. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 11:14, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  And they cite SCIRS for that? It says the opposite. – Joe (talk) 12:21, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  Joe, you are correct that my main beef is not with SCIRS. I haven't paid much attention to it, though I'd have to if it became a guideline. Mainly I severely dislike PSTS, which is full of nonsense, and I don't want more like it. Almost every word in the "primary source" section of PSTS is also the case for secondary sources. For example, "Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself" — since when are we allowed to do any of those things to a secondary source? And the only good thing about rule #3 is that it is largely ignored (unless "any educated person" knows mathematics, organic chemistry and Japanese). I could go on....I've been arguing this case for about 20 years so I don't expect to get anywhere. Zero^talk 14:32, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  Zero0000 re: "...newspapers and magazines are more likely to report exceptional claims than ordinary claims". That is a different problem: what constitutes a reliable secondary source for a given field. SCIRS says: "Although popular-press news articles and press releases may tout the latest experiments, they often exaggerate or speak of 'revolutionary' results" So for scientific topics general newspapers and newsmagazines should not be considered reliable sources on a par with scientific journal reviews. WP:PSTS does not mention this issue; another reason SCIRS should be a guideline. --Chetvorno^TALK 23:32, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. Upgrading the "Identifying Reliable Sources (Science)" (SCIRS) to guideline status risks imposing unnecessary rigidity on topics that straddle the science and non-science boundary, and I believe that WP:MEDRS needs to be downgraded to an essay due to its frequent misapplication to part-biomedical topics, sometimes even in bad faith. As an essay, SCIRS provides useful advice without enforcing a strict approach that may not be suitable for all topics. By making it a guideline, we risk encouraging an overly simplistic distinction between primary and secondary sources, which may not always reflect the complexities and nuances of scientific inquiry, especially in interdisciplinary fields, or in burgeoning areas of research where established secondary sources may not yet exist. Furthermore, this rigidity could be abused, potentially serving as a gatekeeping tool rather than as a guide, particularly in contentious areas that intersect science with social or political dimensions, as seen with MEDRS in various topics. Maintaining the current flexibility that allows for context-sensitive application of source reliability is essential to ensure that Wikipedia continues to be a diverse and adaptable repository of knowledge. FailedMusician (talk) 23:42, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  We already have flexibility in assessing secondary vs primary coverage within a source, per PSTS. Can you link some examples of MEDRS being misapplied? And if a topic has no secondary coverage at all, whether in review articles/books or in background sections of primary research papers, it certainly should not have its own article and likely isn't BALASP anywhere else either. JoelleJay (talk) 00:48, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

  I believe you are aware of cases where MEDRS has been misapplied. There are instances where primary sources, extensively covered in mainstream media, are challenged by misconstrued higher-quality sources, often to remove contentious content or editors. Introducing a new policy for scientific sources could further stratify our community, complicating contributions and inhibiting constructive dialogue. FailedMusician (talk) 10:14, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

  Where are these cases and why would you think I was aware of them? We haven't edited any of the same mainspace or talk pages or the same topics of any wikipedia- or user-space pages, so I don't know how you would get that impression. The only time I've seen editors claiming primary biomed sources need to be pushed into articles is in support of fringe views like the lab leak conspiracies. JoelleJay (talk) 01:58, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

  Scientific topics often cross multiple disciplines or emerge in fields where extensive secondary sources are scarce. Elevating SCIRS from an essay to a formal guideline could inadvertently restrict the integration of innovative or complex scientific information, making source verification a restrictive rather than supportive process, like in the example you cite. FailedMusician (talk) 23:34, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

  Other disciplines also need secondary sources to comply with NPOV and OR, so I don't see how SCIRS would affect such content negatively. Can you link some examples of disciplines where secondary sources are scarce but which still have DUE content? The example I cite is evidence in support of SCIRS as it would discourage use of unvalidated, potentially fringe research findings outside of medicine. JoelleJay (talk) 00:47, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. Large parts of SCIRS are copy-pasted from (an old version of) WP:MEDRS, but with some words changed. There may be a place for a SCIRS but it would need to be more specific and content-appropriate than this. Bon courage (talk) 03:08, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
• Could support if retitled. I find SCIRS is very useful. In my experience, when articles or sections are rewritten to use mostly SCIRS sources, they get considerably better. I've thought of proposing that this be retitled to "Identifying 'high-quality reliable sources (science)" and then made a guideline. With its current title, I have two concerns. One is the large grey area around what “science” is, which would need to be clarified. Another is the exclusion of factual encyclopedic content that is too new or too obscure to have been covered in secondary sources. Here’s a simple example from Orca: “A 2024 study supported the elevation of Eastern North American resident and transient orcas as distinct species, O. ater and O. rectipinnus respectively.”

I’m very concerned that a guideline would be used to revert any and all additions of content that “fails SCIRS” which is highly discouraging to newbies and would result in the rejection of a lot of good information along with bad.

The value of SCIRS sources is that they indicate the level of acceptance that claims have in the science community. This is useful for assessing controversial claims and for filtering out noise in fields where there are a lot of early-stage technologies clamoring for attention. Secondary sources are invaluable for ensuring NPOV in broad and/or controversial areas. However, I have never bought into the idea that secondary sources are essential for ensuring NOR in the sciences. A primary source in history is by definition written by a non-historian and requires a researcher to interpret it. A primary source in science is usually written by a scientist and summarizing it is not original research. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 04:24, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, but deciding a piece of primary research is worthy of encyclopedic content (i.e. is 'accepted knowledge') is OR. Primary research is really an interchange among researchers, and much of it is faulty/wrong/fraudulent. Wikipedia editors are in no position to pick and chose what's good and what's not. Bon courage (talk) 04:29, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Clayoquot makes an important point about the uncertainty over what is the "science" as that can be exploited by advocates of certain issues to misrepresent emerging or part scientific topics as being on the fringe. This can impact the reliability and representation of such topics on Wikipedia, potentially either overstating or undervaluing their scientific validity. Therefore, clear guidelines are crucial to prevent the misuse of these definitions. FailedMusician (talk) 07:36, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

WP:FRINGE doesn't just apply to "science", however it is defined. In the humanities the secondary/primary considerations are completely different in any case (you don't get a systematic review of who wrote the works of Shakespeare!). Bon courage (talk) 07:43, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

How scientific aspects of topics are defined is important, especially in the face of editors engaging in strong advocacy on issues, and worse. That's why we need to exercise caution here. FailedMusician (talk) 09:56, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

FYI, SCIRS already addresses the scope in the lead The scope of this page includes the natural, social and formal sciences.

As for something being too obscure, that would indicate a WP:WEIGHT issue with inclusion. If it's too new, weight issues come into play too. For MEDRS topics, that means waiting to see if sources indicate the results are due to include or not, and that's worked well in practice. We don't have a WP:CRYSTAL ball to decide what new or late-breaking news (i.e., WP:RECENTISM) should be included. Generally our WP:PAG have us being behind the ball on new information like that. WP:NOTJOURNAL policy comes into play here too where an encyclopedia is not where we have essentially recent news on primary research like us scientists are used to writing in real life.

Point is, a lot of things being brought up are things we are supposed to be avoiding in existing policy/guideline. SCIRS is just explaining why (or intended to) and how to navigate that with relative flexibility compared to something like MEDRS. KoA (talk) 21:56, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: Like @Clayoquot, I am an active contributor to WikiProject Climate change, and I can say with confidence that certain scientific subjects, such as, in fact, climate change, are so fast-moving that an application of this policy would cripple most of our articles on this topic. Even the primary peer-reviewed papers are, by necessity, several years behind the real-world processes due to the time it takes to first analyze the climate data, and then to get the paper through peer review. To give an example I have had to deal with recently - a research paper (i.e. a primary source) on trends in oceanic carbon storage published in August 2023 was only able to cover trends up to 2014! Yet, if SCIRS were to become a guideline, we would need to exclude it and rely on even older data!

As @Bon courage points out, much of SCIRS stems off MEDRS. Primary research in climate science is in a very different position to primary medical research. It's one thing to p-hack an observational study among a few dozen patients. It's quite another when you have to reserve months of computing time from room-scale supercomputers (lead image here shows what a typical climate model looks like nowadays, for reference) - often multiple ones in different research institutions across the world - in order to be in a position to even test your hypothesis in the first place. Likewise when your primary research involves field work like sending robotic submarines underneath glaciers.

It is actually a lot easier to write a review in climate science if you don't mind about the journal which would accept it - and the current guideline text has very little to say about differences between journals, even ones as obvious as those between Nature and Science vs. MDPI and Frontiers. As best as I can tell, this notorious piece from MDPI would be accepted for inclusion due to being a secondary source, while a paper in Nature like this one would be rejected, if going off SCIRS as currently written. Even if this were amended, a lot of primary climate research is unlikely to make it into reviews for reasons that have nothing to do with reliability. I.e. it's not really realistic to expect that scientific reviews, or even the ~4000-page IPCC reports (published in 7-year intervals) would include every good paper about climate impact on every species that could be studied, or about every geographic locale. For lesser-known species/areas in particular, it would often be primary research or nothing.

Finally, I can only assume that if this guideline were to be applied consistently, then graphics taken from primary sources would be affected as well, wouldn't they? That would be a disaster for so many of our articles, which would stand to lose dozens of illustrations. This is because only a handful of reliable climate journals use the licensing compatible with Wikipedia terms, and those overwhelmingly publish primary research. Secondary scientific reviews tend to either lack suitable illustrations in the first place, or to have incompatible licensing (i.e. the graphics in the IPCC reports). The precious exceptions are nowhere near enough. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 10:54, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

As someone who works in the climate change research realm IRL, this doesn't seem like a very accurate description of the literature in terms of how SCIRS would work in practice. If a late-breaking primary study is important and worth mentioning on Wikipedia, other papers will cite it, even primary ones, and establish due weight for us as well as give us a summary we could use. Climate change is one of the more well published fields, so that won't really be a problem. Even in my main area of entomology, there's a lot of variation, but even the "slower" fields really wouldn't have issues with this. SCIRS is not the same as MEDRS, though like I mentioned above, the essay would benefit from some tightening up I hope to do soon that would make it redundantly clear. At least the intent behind SCIRS really isn't being reflected in the oppose !votes so far, so there's a disconnect somewhere. KoA (talk) 18:15, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

If the intent behind a policy/guideline/essay isn't being reflected in people's comments about it then it's likely that the intent isn't being well communicated, which is an argument against formalising it. Thryduulf (talk) 19:14, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

That's a part of it I mentioned early on where some reworks are likely needed. The other concern I have of that coin is that people are assuming things about MEDRS and applying that to SCIRS rather than focusing on specific parts of what SCIRS actually does say. There's a point where an ungrounded oppose really isn't even opposition to SCIRS.

I was getting a hint of the latter in ITK's comment where they said Yet, if SCIRS were to become a guideline, we would need to exclude it and rely on even older data! in reference to this primary source. Nothing is mentioned about SCIRS specifically there that's at issue though. Normally you'd want to stay away from the results section of such a paper outside of very limited use, but in the absence of full secondary publications, using the introduction there absolutely would not be a problem in a limited fashion. I also see at least 15 papers citing it if you wanted to include WP:DUE information about the results of that paper. There's a lot of flexibility in terms of what SCIRS says right now for that example, so that's why I'm asking for specifics to see where the disconnect is.

I'm personally more interested in fine-tuning SCIRS than guideline promotion right now, so I'm trying to sort out what concrete concerns there may be (that could potentially be worked on) versus assumption. If there's something specifically in SCIRS that's at issue, this would be the place to iron that out, so I'd ask folks to point out specifics in SCIRS. If it's something someone thinks is in SCIRS but isn't, then I don't know what to say. When I see some comments here that basically amount to saying they wouldn't be allowed to do what SCIRS specifically gives guidance on and allows, I have to wonder if it was something they skimmed over, something that needs to be outlined better, etc. rather than jumping to a more extreme conclusion that someone didn't really read SCIRS. Tl;dr, I'd like to see specifics to work on. KoA (talk) 21:39, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

At least the intent behind SCIRS really isn't being reflected in the oppose !votes so far, so there's a disconnect somewhere. - Well, nobody reasonable opposes the intent to make scientific citations more reliable. That does not indicate agreement with the methods used to get there.

There's a lot of flexibility in terms of what SCIRS says right now for that example, so that's why I'm asking for specifics to see where the disconnect is.

Well, here's an example. I also see at least 15 papers citing it if you wanted to include WP:DUE information about the results of that paper. - Firstly, the paper, which I'll link to again only has 5 citations according to CrossRef, which is directly integrated into the journal page itself. Needless to say, SCIRS most definitely does not say anywhere "You should choose Google Scholar over the papers' own preferred citation tools when it comes to assessing notability."

Secondly, there is absolutely nothing in the current text of SCIRS which suggests that ~15 citations is the magic number which would satisfy the "widely cited" part of In general, scientific information in Wikipedia articles should be based on published, reliable secondary sources, or on widely cited tertiary and primary sources. It is left wholly ambiguous what "widely cited" should mean. Who says it's not 30 citations or 50, or perhaps even more? (Papers on certain subjects in climate science can hit such numbers very quickly - here is a research paper which got to 604 citations in less than two years, for example).

At the same time, I think that even if SCIRS did codify the recommended number of citations + the recommended citation tool, that would not be much of a step forward on its own. You may say that SCIRS would allow that AGU Advances paper, for instance, but you seem to concede my other example: As best as I can tell, this notorious piece from MDPI would be accepted for inclusion due to being a secondary source, while a paper in Nature like this one would be rejected, if going off SCIRS as currently written. I don't think it's good practice to effectively say we know better than the editors of Nature flagship journal and effectively impose a freeze on citing their latest research (which, in this case, operates with decades of data and has very important implications for a range of ecosystems) until an arbitrary number of other publishing researchers end up citing it as well.

I'll give one more example of personal relevance for me. This January, I have put a lot of work into cleaning up and generally expanding the Southern Ocean overturning circulation article. It is still far from perfect, but I hope nobody will object to the idea that it is now MUCH better than what it used to be. Yet, the research on ocean circulation is overwhelmingly focused on the Northern Hemisphere, particularly on the AMOC (also rewritten by yours truly the other week, for that matter.) There has been a drought of research on this southern counterpart to AMOC until very, very recently (literally the last couple of years), and the research which is now coming out still has a (relative) difficulty getting cited, because again, AMOC is a much "sexier" research topic. I have a concern that a not-inconsiderable number of papers I used for that article would be considered "insufficiently cited" if the current text of SCIRS were elevated to guideline status, and I really struggle to see how excluding them, even temporarily (but potentially for years) would improve that article.

If I were to name one modification to SCIRS I would want to see the most, it would be de-emphasizing the number of citations of individual papers and emphasizing CiteScore/Impact Factor of the journals which published them. For the flagship journals with absolute highest Impact factors, I don't think any number of citations should be demanded. In contrast, the number of required citations would scale as the impact factor/journal reliability decreases: I might well oppose citing anything from MDPI/Frontiers that has not hit ~50 citations in general and/or a citation in something like an IPCC report or a flagship journal publication. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 23:12, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I interpreted I also see at least 15 papers citing it if you wanted to include WP:DUE information about the results of that paper as a suggestion to use those citations' descriptions of the paper's results, as those would be secondary. JoelleJay (talk) 16:14, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Correct, the whole point was that there were plenty of citing papers to potentially use as a secondary sourced content about that example study. Following citations is almost exactly what we do in MEDRS topics too looking for papers that cite a primary research article if someone initially wanted to try to add it, except there we're limited to full secondary sources like lit. reviews or meta-analyses. For a SCIRS topic though, it's much more relaxed. This is illustrating some of my caution I just mentioned about reading what's actually in SCIRS because I'm not aware of anything about citation counts, and that's rightfully left out of both this and MEDRS. As far as I'm aware, only WP:NPROF does anything like that, which isn't without controversy. KoA (talk) 21:34, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

This is illustrating some of my caution I just mentioned about reading what's actually in SCIRS - Have you considered that maybe SCIRS is just poorly written? Reams and reams of passive-voice text, often chock-full of equivocations and qualifiers, and frequently packed into 8-12 line paragraphs that make it hard to pick out the important from the self-explanatory at a glance. SCIRS makes the actual literature reviews look positively exciting and easy-to-read.

Correct, the whole point was that there were plenty of citing papers to potentially use as a secondary sourced content about that example study. Following citations is almost exactly what we do in MEDRS topics too looking for papers that cite a primary research article if someone initially wanted to try to add it, except there we're limited to full secondary sources like lit. reviews or meta-analyses.

So...how do you functionally tell apart an otherwise primary source being used a secondary source for another primary source... from simply a primary source being used as a primary source, when you are an editor reviewing another's edit? This idea seems to fall apart if you think about it for a minute.

In fact, after taking a second look...

what we do in MEDRS topics too looking for papers that cite a primary research article if someone initially wanted to try to add it

So, if applied wiki-wide, that would seem to translate to baby-sitting every single attempt to add a primary paper reference and demand either proof it's an indirect citation for something else or a citation hunt to cite that paper indirectly? All while we still have enormous issues with both unreferenced passages and those relying on deeply obsolete references? That would seem to be incredibly counterproductive.

I'm going to concur with a quote from Peter Gulutzan up above: WP:MEDRS was a bad idea too but at least had the excuse that dispensing bad health advice could cause legal problems I don't see the justification for this additional, stifling layer of Wikibureaucracy where that risk does not exist, and where there is a much greater chance of important context being lost in translation from a full study to a citing sentence. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 04:10, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

So...how do you functionally tell apart an otherwise primary source being used a secondary source for another primary source... Well, you go look at the source of course. That's normally what most of us editors do when we're reviewing any article. If someone isn't checking sources when they make a citation or are verifying content, that's a problem in terms of existing WP:PAG, which is what we based WP:CONSENSUS on. KoA (talk) 04:38, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

@InformationToKnowledge, I appreciate you looking at the practical side here. You might be interested in readhing WP:PRIMARYINPART.

In the MEDRS context, it's usually pretty easy to tell when a primary source (e.g., a journal article whose primary purpose is to report the results of a randomized controlled trial) is being used as a secondary source. The first thing to look for is whether the content comes from an "introduction" or "background" section. Those sections take information from previously published sources, and are selected and combined to present a new(ish) way of looking at the information. So that part of the paper is usually secondary, and the thing for editors to remember is that "Secondary" does not mean "good". Even though there are secondary, they can be somewhat biased (the authors present only the background information that is relevant to or supportive of their specific research, rather than trying to write an unbiased and comprehensive overview – for example, the surgeons only talk about surgery, the drug companies only talk about drugs, etc.). WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:51, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I interpreted "I also see at least 15 papers citing it if you wanted to include WP:DUE information about the results of that paper" as a suggestion to use those citations' descriptions of the paper's results, as those would be secondary.

I have already written my objections to this idea in the other reply, but I decided I might as well humour this suggestion and see where it takes us. I'll begin with the 5 citations you actually see on the journal page itself, since people will almost certainly do that first, and pull up Google Scholar second (if ever).

Citation 1: Shares some of the same authors - according to the current SCIRS text, that seems to be allowed? (Unless I missed a line tucked away within one of those huge paragraphs which accounts for that.) If it is, that kinda makes one wonder what the purpose of this whole rigmarole is, if the researchers citing their previous work somehow immediately makes it more reliable. Anyway, it cites the study in question (Müller et al., 2023) four times:

Currently, the global ocean takes up 25%–30% of all human-made CO2 emissions (DeVries, 2014; Friedlingstein et al., 2022; Gruber, Clement, et al., 2019; Gruber et al., 2023; Khatiwala et al., 2009; Müller et al., 2023; Terhaar et al., 2022)

Although they contain data from similar GOBMs and pCO2 products, the compiled database of RECCAP2 (Müller, 2023) goes well beyond that used in the framework of the Global Carbon Budget (Friedlingstein et al., 2022).

The RECCAP2 database (Müller, 2023) provides model output from 1980 to 2018 from four simulations (called simulations A, B, C and D) that aim to quantify the different components of the oceanic CO2 flux. (A bunch of equations follows.)

To compare the net sea-air CO2 fluxes from the GOBMs with observation-based estimates, we utilize the RECCAP2 data set of pCO2 products (Müller, 2023), including AOML_EXTRAT, CMEMS-LSCE-FFNN, CSIR-ML6, JenaMLS, JMA-MLR, MPI-SOMFFN, OceanSODA-ETHZ, UOEX_Wat20, and NIES-MLR3 (see Supplementary Table 2 in DeVries et al. (2023) for references and further details).

Citation 2

Multiple lines of observation-based evidence support climate-change effects on the ocean carbon sink (Keppler et al., 2023; Mignot et al., 2022; Müller et al., 2023)

It is unambiguous that the ocean carbon sink has increased over recent decades in line with increasing atmospheric CO2 levels as its primary driver (Ballantyne et al., 2012; DeVries et al., 2023; Gruber et al., 2023; Müller et al., 2023).

Citation 3

This finding agrees with previous studies that find an important role for Pinatubo in preindustrial carbon variability (Eddebbar et al., 2019; Fay et al., 2023; McKinley et al., 2020), and gives us additional confidence that observation-based estimates of changing anthropogenic carbon distribution (e.g., Gruber et al., 2019; Müller et al., 2023); (also Müller, Jens Daniel, Gruber, Nicolas, Carter, Brendan R., Feely et al., Decadal Trends in the Oceanic Storage of Anthropogenic Carbon from 1994 to 2014, in preparation for Authorea) are relatively unaffected by the Pinatubo climate perturbation.

Citation 4 (also involves some of the same authors as the original study)

How is the ocean carbon cycle changing as a consequence of sustained increases in emissions of carbon to the atmosphere? Important steps toward answering this question over the last several decades have been provided via estimates of ocean carbon uptake from both interior hydrographic measurements (Gruber et al., 2019; Müller et al., 2023; Sabine et al., 2004),...

For all of the oceanic studies within RECCAP2, a discrete number of ocean biomes based on Fay and McKinley (2014) are used to facilitate consistent intercomparison between regions (described in the supplement to the Müller (2023) publication of the RECCAP2 data).

Thus, our six aggregated biomes (Table 1 and Figure 1) (their precise boundaries given in Supporting Information S1 of the RECCAP2 data release of Müller, 2023) consist of

Citation 5 (also involves some of the same authors as the original study)

A recent update of the eMLR(C*) results by Müller et al. (2023) resolves decadal trends in the anthropogenic carbon accumulation from 1994 to 2014, but was published after the completion of this study and could thus not be considered here.

Nevertheless, a recent update of the eMLR-C* estimates by Müller et al. (2023) also suggests substantial climate-driven variability in the oceanic storage of anthropogenic carbon similar to that shown in Figure 7f.

None of these citations mention the finding of the original study where carbon storage in the North Atlantic specifically had declined by 20% (at most, you can kinda sorta see a decline in Figure 1 of Citation 4, but you can't really get the specific percentage from there), which is the whole reason why I cited that study in the first place. For that matter, the additional citations from Google Scholar (some of which are either preprints or paywalled) do not do that either. So, if SCIRS were to become a guideline, that specific finding, which, lest we forget, was derived from

the JGOFS/WOCE global CO2 survey conducted in the 1980s and 1990s (Key et al., 2004; Wallace, 1995), the repeat hydrography program GO-SHIP that began in 2003 and is now completing its second cycle (Sloyan et al., 2019; Talley et al., 2016), as well as a number of additional programs, including INDIGO, SAVE, TTO, JOIS, and GEOSECS (Key et al., 2004, and references therein).

Would somehow become too unreliable for inclusion in a Wikipedia article, purely because no other article felt the need mention this particular detail yet, even as they cited the study itself? REALLY?

So, I once again don't understand what this is meant to achieve. If poorly reviewed papers attempting to overturn academic consensus are supposedly the problem, then an Impact Factor bar set at the right level would efficiently block basically all of them without forcing this onerous rigmarole whenever attempting to cite valuable research findings. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 05:16, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

The idea that prestigious journals are more likely to be correct is debatable. See The Economist which explains that there's a winner's curse effect. Prestigious journals like Nature have the most choice and and may publish the papers which are most sensational rather than those which are most accurate. Andrew🐉(talk) 07:57, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

If no academic sources are discussing that particular finding, then neither should Wikipedia. If it's not relevant enough to be mentioned in other studies then it's certainly not at the level of accepted knowledge we need in an encyclopedia. JoelleJay (talk) 08:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

I'll echo that too. If someone is opposed to a potential guideline because it won't let them add something that all signs are pointing to not currently being WP:DUE, that's not a good reason to oppose a guideline.

I'm seeing a lot of potential introductions to pull from in general in that little exercise above though. KoA (talk) 04:58, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

The only reason that finding wasn't "due" in those citations is because all those citations to date were focused on the entire World Ocean, so citing certain text about a specific ocean region certainly wasn't relevant in the context of their research - as opposed to our wiki pages on the North Atlantic region or the Atlantic meridional overturning circulation specifically.

The idea that how often a certain paper is cited in general (let alone the general reputation of its publisher and/or research team) does not matter, and specific findings only "become" reliable once another paper happens to have enough overlap with a certain topic to cite not just the paper as a whole, but that specific phrase, is unintuitive and counterproductive and is likely to remain so.

I am still not seeing a good reason for why a combination of (independent) citation count and journal metrics like Impact factor would not be a better alternative for assessing WP:DUE than this proposal. The only counterargument I have seen so far is "big journals make mistakes too" - which is easily countered by how often papers, particularly at bad journals, can be found to mangle their citations, saying something subtly yet significantly different from the original text. At least, when the major journals screw up, it is reasonably likely that there would be pushback in WP:RS, which we can then mention to place the work in context. In fact, it is many times more likely than to see criticism of bad referencing post-publication, so I remain unconvinced this suggestion adds, rather than removes, reliability. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 14:00, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

How would your proposed citation+prestige system work for a paper like the MMR fraud perpetrated by Andrew Wakefield? I'd think it would rate quite highly, even though nearly all of the sources citing it have done so to say that it's a disgraceful fraud. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:56, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think that is a very relevant example, for several reasons.

1. That paper had been thankfully retracted for a while.
2. Even if it were hypothetically published now, it would be covered by MEDRS, no? (Almost) nobody here is proposing to overturn MEDRS, so can we stick to non-medical examples?
3. I already wrote the following: At least, when the major journals screw up, it is reasonably likely that there would be pushback in WP:RS, which we can then mention to place the work in context. That would be my preferred approach.

In fact, I'll give a fairly recent example where I have had to make a decision on a similar subject. In July, a paper on the Atlantic meridional overturning circulation came out in the reasonably respected Nature Communications, and made a dramatic claim that the AMOC is likely to collapse in the very near future. It predictably received a lot of coverage (here is one of the more breathless examples), yet many experts were highly critical. The paper was already cited in the article by another editor, and I chose to keep its mention, yet also feature some of the most comprehensive criticism.

Now, would the article have been better off by completely ignoring a publication which had been seen nearly half a million times on its own and whose results were reported in almost 1,000 news articles to date (i.e. to tens of millions more readers), mostly uncritically? I really do not think so: and the fact that one of the paper's two authors ended up attempting to personally whitewash the coverage of the paper in the article (and receiving a topic ban for it) suggests that this decision mattered, and was the right approach to take. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 14:53, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

InformationToKnowledge raises crucial points about the practical implications of applying SCIRS as a guideline to rapidly evolving fields like climate science, especially for non-controversial facts. The concern about excluding valuable primary research due to the proposed guidelines' stringent requirements is well-founded, especially when considering the time lag in publishing comprehensive secondary sources in such dynamic areas. This emphasizes the need for SCIRS to accommodate the unique challenges of different scientific disciplines, ensuring that Wikipedia remains an up-to-date and reliable resource without unnecessarily excluding relevant and recent research findings, observations and commentary. FailedMusician (talk) 01:35, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I think we're looking at two different problems:

• Primary vs secondary sources: Secondary is not another way to spell "good", and primary is not a fancy way to spell "bad". A source can be primary and be a good source. Whether it's a good source depends partly on the source itself (e.g., is it self-published?), but it also depends significantly on the WP:RSCONTEXT. For example, editors will probably want a secondary source for a statement like "Wonderpam cures _____", but a primary source might be accepted for a statement like "Wonderpam was the first drug in its class" or "Wonderpam has a shorter shelf life than other treatments".
• Strong vs weak sources: Sources need to be strong enough to bear the weight of the claim they're being cited for. Wikipedia:Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Lightweight claims don't. If a claim is truly non-controversial, then we don't really need a strong source at the end of the sentence. For example, MEDRS accepts WebMD for non-controversial content. It's a secondary source, but it's not a strong source.

The more controversial the claim, the better the source(s) we should be citing. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:15, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Honestly FailedMusician, I've read your statement several times now but I can't quite understand what you're trying to say here. I'm sorry if I'm missing something. Are you just repeating what InformationToKnowledge said, but in your own words, so to speak? Again, sorry if I missed something obvious. Alpha3031 (t • c) 14:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes. FailedMusician (talk) 15:27, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:CREEP. There's no simple algorithm for determining The Truth and complex advice tends to be so equivocal that it is no help and just results in endless Wikilawyering. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:04, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
• I feel like the various subject-specific RS essays are more in-line with supplement, but I'm not sure it would make much of a difference either way. Alpha3031 (t • c) 13:55, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose; people have given a pretty broad range of rationales for opposing this, so not sure that I can contribute a lot. But one thing I will note is that the most recent extremely-high-profile back office brouhaha we had about WP:MEDRS and WP:BIOMED (to wit the giant years-long covid slapfight) did not convince me that having a bunch of additional rules for what sourcing guidelines to use and when to apply them would make it easier to deal with conflict. jp×g🗯️ 06:45, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
• Regardless of which tags end up at the top of the page, I'd like to see the Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (science)#Formatting citations section deleted as redundant to Wikipedia:Citing sources. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:29, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
• Provisionally oppose upgrade, but not use as an essay for now This guideline lacks references to support the claims that it makes. (I accept that WP:V does not necessarily allow me to delete all unreferenced content in the project namespace, but that does not mean that I have to agree to making it a guideline). It tells us to prefer peer-reviewed sources, despite the fact that this is apparently not completely uncontroversial: [10] [11] [12] [13] and all the other sources that come up on a search for "peer review flawed process" and Scholarly peer review#Criticism. It fails to answer the apparent controversy. It fails to consider whether the purpose of peer reviewing is to determine accuracy (which is relevant to reliability) or to determine importance/originality etc (which is not relevant to reliability). (I am under the impression that scientific "proof" consists of being able to reproduce the results of an experiment by repeating it over and over again, and the peer reviewer is presumably not doing this). We are told to use textbooks. I was once told that the average physics textbook is two years out of date the moment it reaches book shops, and that you cannot do physics properly without reading papers. (You'll have to take my word for this for now, as I don't have time to verify it.) James500 (talk) 09:20, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

  I'm among those scientists that think the peer review system is broken and should be thrown out, but that's a red herring here. Peer review is currently the universally-accepted quality control mechanism in academia. There is debate other whether it should continue to be so, but until then tertiary sources like Wikipedia have to rely on peer reviewed literature, because there is simply no alternative.

  With textbooks, Wikipedia is supposed to be at least two years out of date, because our goal is to document and explain major points of view. New research does not become a "major point of view" in science in the first few years after it is published, because the scientific community needs time to assess the arguments and the evidence. In other words, it is impossible to summarise cutting-edge research without falling afoul of WP:SYNTH. We can give readers a summary of accepted knowledge; they should go elsewhere to learn about current debates or the state of the art. – Joe (talk) 09:30, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

  (Answering both James and Joe) Though there are many problems with peer-review, it is correct to treat it as the best process we have because it really is the best process we have. If some better system takes over, we'll adopt that as the gold standard instead. Peer review is about both accuracy and importance, but the degree to which it can address accuracy depends on the field of study. It's true that reviewers are not expected to repeat experiments, but they are supposed to look for flaws in the experimental protocol, check that competing theories are adequately cited, and they are supposed to insist that enough details are given that others can repeat the experiment. In theoretical fields like mine, reviewers are supposed to check calculations, but they are not expected to repeat computer calculations. I strongly disagree that we can't describe recent publications without violating SYNTH. All that's needed is to present the results as a theory proposed by a named person, without making our own judgement of its validity. The only real problem is deciding which of the thousands of new publications to cover, but that's a NOTABILITY problem not a SYNTH problem. I'm sure that many readers visit Wikipedia looking for accessible explanations of new scientific ideas that they saw in the press or somewhere and I believe that one of our roles is to provide them. Incidentally, lots of important science never appears in textbooks and research monographs about them can take much longer than two years to appear. Zero^talk 14:04, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

  You've said it yourself: the problem is selecting which primary findings should be covered. Call it SYNTH or call it OR or call it notability (though that seems a stretch?) – it's a problem. If we don't retain an emphasis on secondary over primary sources, how do you propose that we identify which new papers are "important science" and which are garbage that somehow sneaked through peer reviewer but will be forgotten about in a year, without engaging in original research? – Joe (talk) 15:15, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

  It's absolutely a problem of BALASP and SYNTH to cover the results of primary papers using those papers as sources. If the wider academic community hasn't contextualized it with the existing mainstream consensus, through reviews or at the very least summaries in the background of other, independent, primary research articles, then it does not belong on wikipedia. JoelleJay (talk) 19:00, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

  I don't know how you can match this situation to the definition of SYNTH. There isn't anything necessarily SYNTH about it. We can judge notability by the usual way we judge notability: by the attention something gets in "reliable sources". Arguments about the notability of particular cases will happen but that's true across all fields, not just in science. I'm not saying that we should pick journal articles that are citation orphans and make articles out of them, but once a journal article makes a "splash" we are free to cite it. The suggestion that Wikipedia must be endlessly years out of date is horrifying and definitely was not the intention when the rules were written. Zero^talk 07:04, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

  This is completely unrelated to notability. The problem with covering splashy new science results is that it is not possible to summarize what the scientific community's assessment of them is in relation to the existing understanding of the topic. We are therefore synthesizing its relevance to the topic when we describe it in an article based only on its primary report.
  And we don't necessarily have to be years out of date, but WP definitely is intended to operate as an encyclopedia summarizing accepted knowledge, not as a EurekAlert stand-in. JoelleJay (talk) 17:33, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

  The way to avoid summarizing "what the scientific community's assessment of them is in relation to the existing understanding of the topic" when we have no reliable sources for that assessment is to not do it. To avoid SYNTH, don't violate SYNTH. You have not given a reason why citing a recent publication is necessarily SYNTH. Zero^talk 01:31, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  You would be engaging in original research as an anonymous editor. In the real world, you generally need a degree in a semi-related field and familiarity with research statistics to interpret the validity of results in the study. None of us are qualified to do that as anonymous editors, even those of us who do have credentials in specific fields IRL. That's what makes using primary research so different here than if you are writing your own summary for work in a research lab. KoA (talk) 04:47, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  The same argument could be used to eliminate all articles on technical subjects even if all the sources are secondary. Do you think an average editor can understand a graduate textbook in differential geometry or quantum mechanics? The only reason we have many excellent articles on scientific subjects is that we have editors who can understand the sources. You are actually criticising something that nobody has proposed. The role of an editor is to summarise what the researchers (and experts other than the original authors) say about it, not to "interpret the validity" of it. Zero^talk 09:40, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  The role of an editor is to summarise what the researchers (and experts other than the original authors) say about it, not to "interpret the validity" of it. Exactly. IRL, you are assessing the validity of statements in the results section if you are summarizing them in any way or saying they are worth mentioning. We as anonymous editors don't get such special privileges, so that's why we rely on secondary sources who are qualified to do that for us.

  If I'm reading a primary article IRL and citing the results, I'm supposed to be checking if their methods actually let them say that, the statistical tests are valid, etc. That gets taught pretty early on in introductory college level courses, and especially on how scientific literature is misused when people don't do that. That reality remains regardless of guideline or not. KoA (talk) 16:34, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  KoA, I think you have the right intuition here, but it's neither OR nor SYNTH.

  First of all, it is actually impossible to violate SYNTH when you are looking at a single source. SYNTH begins with the words Do not combine material from multiple sources. One source is not multiple sources; ergo, SYNTH does not apply.

  Second, deciding that some material is worth mentioning is not an example of material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published source exists – which is our definition of OR.

  I find that understanding the reason that WP:NOR was created helps people understand it. That policy exists because, 'way back in Wikipedia's earliest days, a Usenet personality (read: physics crackpot) thought that Wikipedia would be an excellent place to tell the world about his proof that Einstein was completely wrong. He couldn't get the scientific journals to publish his nonsense, and he got laughed at on Usenet, but he was just so convinced that he had figured out something that nobody else knew, that he really wanted to tell the world. Wikipedia was one of his targets. We didn't accept his nonsense, either, and we wrote NOR to draw a line in the sand, and say to all the other crackpots in the world: if you can't get your idea published in the real world, we don't want it here, either.

  The flipside, which has probably occurred to you, is that if you did get your idea published in the real world (e.g., as a primary source in a scientific journal), then we might want it here. But what's important for this discussion is: If the material in question was actually published in a reliable source, then it's not NOR. It might be a violation of every single other policy and guideline, but it's not NOR.

  I think what you're looking for is Wikipedia:Relevance, or, in the more general case, NPOV. Deciding whether the contents of a source is worth mentioning is fundamentally not about an editor making stuff up, but about an editor finding the right WP:BALANCE in the article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:31, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  No. You're not generally looking at a single source when writing an article, you are looking at multiple sources, and indeed you can imply something about them in the ways you put them together. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:43, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  But incorporating material from the primary source into the context of the rest of the article is synthesizing from multiple sources... JoelleJay (talk) 18:53, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  @Alanscottwalker and @JoelleJay, that isn't what the policy says.

  WP:SYNTH does not restrict itself to primary sources. If you combine any sources to reach or imply a conclusion that does not appear in any source, then you violate SYNTH. Combining two high-quality secondary sources, if you combine them in ways that reach or imply a conclusion that has never been made in a reliable source, is a SYNTH violation.

  For example, this is a N classic SYNTH violation:

  • String theory is correct.^{[excellent source]}
  • Newtonian physics is correct within limits.^{[great source]}
  • Therefore, I say Einstein is wrong!^{[Wikipedia editor's own conclusion]}

  Using two sources next to each other – so long as you are not reaching or implying a conclusion that has never been published in a reliable source – is not a SYNTH violation.

  For example, this pairs two primary sources, and it is Y 100% non-SYNTH and acceptable per policy:

  • Smith stated that Jones committed plagiarism by copying references from another author's book.^{[op-ed in a magazine]}
  • Jones responded that it is acceptable scholarly practice to use other people's books to find new references.^{[Jones' blog]}

  Alan, you're correct insofar as we (and the policy) agree that you can imply something that isn't present in any source, but there is nothing inherent about using a primary source, or using multiple sources in the same article, that means you actually are reaching or implying a previously unpublished conclusion. If you haven't combined multiple sources to create a new conclusion, it's not SYNTH; if everything in the article comes from sources, then it's not any type of OR. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:33, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  Joelle, I don't know if the implications of your comment were clear to you – maybe it doesn't say quite what you meant – but if it were actually true that "incorporating material from the primary source into the context of the rest of the article is synthesizing", then WP:PRIMARY would be much shorter, since all it would need to say is "Citing primary sources is banned". Either it's possible to cite a primary source in an article without violating SYNTH, or primary sources are banned by SYNTH. This is a strictly either-or situation; we cannot have it both ways, so that we claim out of one side of our mouths that primary sources are permitted and out of the other that using them is a violation of SYNTH because using them (correctly) is synthesizing their contents into the context of the rest of the article.

  Given that the word primary doesn't appear anywhere in SYNTH, and given that editors cite primary sources every hour of the day, including in Featured Articles, I think it's clear that primary sources are permitted (when used appropriately) and do not violate SYNTH (except when used in ways that would equally violate SYNTH if they were secondary sources). WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:41, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  What's your point? No one said SYNTH is restricted to primary sources. You were just plain wrong that we are only dealing with one source in almost every case that matters, and yes the implication from the way you combine them is what needs to be looked into, that is SYNTH analysis. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:51, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  JoelleJay said incorporating material from the primary source into the context of the rest of the article is synthesizing from multiple sources. Note the absence of any restrictive clause like "if that's done to reach or imply a conclusion that is not present in a reliable source". A plain reading of her sentence indicates that she believes using a primary source is a SYNTH violation.

  Do you agree with her that citing a primary source in an article always involves synthesizing it with the other sources in the article? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:30, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

  It always depends on how you use the source. I understood her point to be you are using more than one source (Though one would surmise, one would need to have a very rigorous explanation for throwing primary info into the middle of secondary analysis, of course). Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:00, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, my point was that contextualizing a primary source with the rest of an article is combining multiple sources to reach a conclusion not implied in any of them. "Contextualizing" being a key synonym of "interpreting" or "analyzing" here. JoelleJay (talk) 02:50, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

  All sources can (and must) be cited without "interpreting" or "analyzing" them. You seem to think that merely citing a source involves interpreting or analyzing it, but that is not true. See SYNTH is not mere juxtaposition and other items on that page. Here is a hypothetical example of a properly cited source: "XYZ has proposed that black holes evaporate more quickly than previously assumed.[cite]" If the source satisfies RS, this ticks all the boxes and does not involve any interpretation or analysis, nor does it imply that XYZ is correct. It is mere reporting of what is in a source and there is nothing whatever wrong with it. Zero^talk 03:17, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

  You don't judge SYNTH on one source alone. It remains, primary sources are not interpretation/analysis so therefore you can't use them to recast, remix, redo, update, shade, shape, bolster, critique, bring new contextualization, make new implications, etc., for secondary analysis. Alanscottwalker (talk) 06:34, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

  My point is that content cited to a primary source that has been contextualized with the other material on the page is a) no longer from "only one source" and b) is automatically SYNTH because definitionally primary-cited content can't be contextualized with other material without violating OR.

  Your example, if citable only to a primary source, is still "bringing new contextualization" to the topic beyond the "basic facts" allowed by PSTS. JoelleJay (talk) 00:26, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

  Alan said: one would need to have a very rigorous explanation for throwing primary info into the middle...

  The "rigorous explanations" I've been given for this, by its proponents, is that they want give credit to the original researcher or to make it easy for people (i.e., people who need to give credit in their own papers to that original researcher) to find the original paper. WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:15, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

  If you are talking about highlighting a primary source that's already highlighted in secondary sources, that's probably fine (depending on how long the Wiki article should be) as long as you do it in a similar way to the secondary source(s). (That is, you don't draw anything 'new' from it). Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:13, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

  The biggest problem that I have here is that this essay is a TLDR wall of uncited text. Every time I read it, I find new issues. For example, the section "definitions" contains a link to the article Primary source, which says that it is about "the study of history as an academic discipline". (While the article does contain a one line mention of "scientific literature", it is referenced to a source that is about "research" generally, rather than science). The link to the article is clearly not relevant to the essay and ought to be removed. Another example: The essay tells me to use "reviews published in the last five years or so". Why five years? Is this just a round number? Where has this number come from? Who says five years is up to date? Has this essay been systematically checked for errors? It might be better to start a new proposal from scratch, and build it up one line at a time, carefully checking (and preferably citing) the claims as you going along. James500 (talk) 22:41, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

  the article Primary source, which says that it is about "the study of history as an academic discipline" – Um, no, it doesn't. It says that "in the study of history as an academic discipline", a primary sources is a particular thing. It does not say that the article is about the study of history. (Compare "In the field of medicine, cancer is a disease, but in the field of astronomy, cancer is a constellation".) The link is there to help people who don't know what that jargon means. Reasonable people could disagree over whether it is more useful to link to the encyclopedia article, the policy, or the explanatory essay, but I don't think anyone believes it's best to leave unfamiliar terms undefined.

  For your other questions:

  • Why five years? Is this just a round number? – Three to five years is recommended to medical students based on the length of time it takes for sources to get published in that field. This is based on the idea of a "cycle": You publish your research, I publish my review of your research, and someone else publishes a response to my review. You want the whole cycle to happen. Because it takes weeks or months to write the papers, and months (sometimes, even longer than a year) to get the paper published, it usually takes at least one year, and it often takes three to five years, to get an understanding of how the scientific community has reacted to a paper.
  • Where has this number come from? – Straight out of WP:MEDRS.
  • Who says five years is up to date? – Medical researchers, but as a Rule of thumb, not as an absolute statement that applies in all circumstances. Some information (e.g., names of diseases) rarely changes, and other information changes rapidly.

  WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:55, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think it's possible to uncritically apply the norms of the medical research cycle to all science - different disciplines move at different speeds and have different considerations and conventions. Thryduulf (talk) 00:12, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  And that is why I think citations would be desirable: to avoid the risk of a Wikiality definition of reliability. James500 (talk) 00:22, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  Citations are typically used in mainspace. Wikispace generally doesn't have citations outside of very specific needs. An essay/guideline not having much for citations is the norm. KoA (talk) 04:53, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  The rule is at WP:NOTPART.

  Thryduulf, I agree with you. History isn't science, but it makes a good example: their fundamental unit of scholarly output is the book, and the cycle is consequently much longer. I don't expect the hard sciences to be wildly different (anything in the last five years is likely to be reasonably current under normal circumstances in any hard science, no matter how fast it moves, and under abnormal circumstances, sudden shifts can happen overnight even in medicine). I am more concerned about subfields that move more slowly. Sometimes niche information is relevant and appropriate, and the best source is six or ten years old, rather than two or five. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:24, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

  Indeed, and then you get into fields that don't fit completely into a single box, like the history of science, where you might need to cite decades old research, such as when a mainstream theory is proven incorrect conclusively and repeatedly and so nobody touches it again. Luminiferous aether is the first thing that comes to mind (although probably not the best example as that's been the subject of much ley coverage). Thryduulf (talk) 00:58, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

• I think it's obvious that there isn't consensus to upgrade SCIRS right now, but I'm also not hearing a hard no forever and there's been a lot of potential points of improvement raised. I'll try to summarise those at WT:SCIRS when I get a chance – but if anyone can beat me to it, please be my guest. The trickiest issue seems to disagreement over the desirability of applying WP:PSTS to scientific topics, but since that's already a policy I don't see much room for manouvre. – Joe (talk) 06:40, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  On the contrary, I do not see any disagreement over WP:PSTS. After all, this is its current first paragraph.

  Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources, and to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources. Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and avoid novel interpretations of primary sources. All analyses and interpretive or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary or tertiary source and must not be an original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors.

  Appropriate sourcing can be a complicated issue, and these are general rules. Deciding whether primary, secondary, or tertiary sources are appropriate in any given instance is a matter of good editorial judgment and common sense, and should be discussed on article talk pages. A source may be considered primary for one statement but secondary for a different one. Even a given source can contain both primary and secondary source material for one particular statement. For the purposes of this policy, primary, secondary and tertiary sources are defined as follows

  A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge.

  So, perhaps it is the pro-SCIRS editors here who need to be reminded of the actual PSTS text. They are the ones who are suddenly turning to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources into "secondary and tertiary sources only" and arguing that no, primary sources should not be used for straightforward statements of facts, instead proposing an alternative which would often run counter to common sense (I am yet to a see a response to the fairly obvious downsides I identified in an earlier comment here).

  I also want to highlight that this would be a very disruptive change if adopted and there were actually serious attempts to enforce it. To give a personal example: so far, I have successfully nominated a total of three articles for GA. In each case, the article was what I (and apparently, the reviewer) considered to be a healthy mix of primary and secondary sources. Further, each reviewer was a veteran editor with ~67k, ~267k and ~22k edits, and two of them have made extensive contributions both to creating and reviewing GA-class articles. If the people responsible for much of the GA article creation and maintenance are acting counter to the spirit of the policy you propose, you may want to reconsider something. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 13:17, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  I really thought SCIRS was a low-profile and uncontroversial essay before this – I'm surprised there is already a camp of "pro-SCIRS editors" who need to be reminded of anything! WP:PSTS does indeed say that primary sources can be used, as does WP:SCIRS, under #Respect primary sources: a primary source, such as a report of a pivotal experiment cited as evidence for a hypothesis, may be a valuable component of an article. A good article may appropriately cite primary, secondary, and tertiary sources. When I observed that there is disagreement over PSTS, it is precisely because the rather moderate attempt to apply it in SCIRS (as opposed to say WP:MEDRS, a guideline, which says Avoid primary sources) has provoked such strong reactions. – Joe (talk) 13:43, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  Well, only a few posts up, multiple editors are telling me that what may appropriately cite in this "Respect primary sources" wording really means is, apparently, "A primary scientific source can only be cited when it cites something else, and never for its own findings." This really is not the way many of us have thought of WP:PSTS before, so I question the idea that this is "moderate". InformationToKnowledge (talk) 14:09, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  But the purpose of this discussion was to gauge support for upgrading SCIRS to a guideline, not their opinions to a guideline. – Joe (talk) 17:58, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  In which case, wouldn't this suggest that the SCIRS text needs to be amended to fully clarify that it does not currently endorse such opinions, before it can become a guideline? If some editors appear to intepret the existence of a policy as a mandate for making editorial decisions which are not currently openly endorsed by it? InformationToKnowledge (talk) 15:09, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

  At least for most of us who work on science topics, it generally isn't anything controversial in practice in my experience.

  To be blunt though, this has highlighted how many who would benefit from additional guidance of scientific sources are often opposed to it, so there's a catch-22 there on the wiki-process side of things. Some arguments that have come up here are just plain misconception or just making something simple we normally do when dealing with primary sources seem really complicated somehow. I mentioned earlier too how it's not an uncommon problem for people with a science background to have trouble adjusting to working as an anonymous editor when it comes to using scientific literature, so there are a few systemic things to address.

  That said, SCIRS in concept is fairly well primed to be a guideline, but there is some work to be done on structure, broadening concepts that were addressed in the narrow MEDRS sense, etc. I didn't get around to it yet, but I have a few edits I've been working on putting in that I'll get to soon. KoA (talk) 16:48, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  I'm with you there. Reading this discussion, I can certainly see where people are coming from with the fear of too harsh a prohibition, but I cannot really imagine my own usual topic area functioning at all if primary and secondary sources were given complete parity. – Joe (talk) 18:00, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  I cannot really imagine my own usual topic area functioning at all... One thing that seems clear to me but not to everyone in this discussion is that "science" isn't a single topic area. Medicine is different to climate change, both are different to archaeology, and all of them are different to astronomy. They have commonalities, but there are such fundamental differences in the nature of the research, the speed of the field, the conventions, etc. that I don't think it's going to be possible to produce a single guideline that both covers every scientific discipline and has anything useful to say that more general policies and guidelines don't already. MEDRS works because it's focused on a single topic area, but at least some of it's provisions just don't translate to other sciences. Thryduulf (talk) 20:27, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  SCIRS would be applicable to any field that has primary research papers and secondary reviews/meta-analyses/books. They all would benefit from stronger guidance discouraging inclusion of primary results, as suggested in PSTS, which itself apparently needs to be enforced better in certain topics if editors are routinely citing splashy new papers. JoelleJay (talk) 21:44, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  I agree and I think that Joe Roe's initial proposal to upgrade SCIRS to a guideline was a commendable effort, but there is a big undercurrent of opposition as it would be subject to abuse, and the project has suffered from that in the past. It would be wielded as a gatekeeping tool by editors experienced in wikilawyering, keeping out new ones with valuable contributions, stagnating the project. The key to Wikipedia's success is open collaboration, as written in the lead sentence of the Wikipedia article. FailedMusician (talk) 01:16, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

  and the project has suffered from that in the past. Citations? JoelleJay (talk) 02:52, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

  The text goes on to say It would be wielded as a gatekeeping tool... and I'm sure you know of relevant incidents yourself. FailedMusician (talk) 23:43, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

  I want to know what you think are examples of the project suffering due to "overzealous" application of MEDRS.

  And again I don't know how you can be sure [I] know of relevant incidents [myself] unless you're an alt account of someone who has actually interacted with me before this thread. Do you have any prior accounts? JoelleJay (talk) 00:40, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

  Every academic subject has primary research and then secondary sources such as books. This includes the Humanities and they can be quite soft subjects such as Harry Potter Studies; Fashion; and Poetry. Science just means knowledge and so is too general a concept to be definitive or helpful. Andrew🐉(talk) 22:33, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

  Not every subject has primary research results published in the form of papers, unless you're stretching the contextual meaning of "results" to include any intellectual work product. JoelleJay (talk) 22:38, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

  For an example, please see The Science Behind the Magic? The Relation of the Harry Potter “Sorting Hat Quiz” to Personality and Human Values. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:13, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

  Can you point me to a diff where anyone spoke of anything resembling complete parity between primary and secondary sources? In my view, the opposing arguments instead are more akin to acknowledging that different sciences - indeed, different research areas of the varying sciences which we would ideally all need to cover - have different publication cycles, a vast difference in complexity of primary vs. secondary studies and last but not least, a different relationship with time and probability.

  Thus, on balance, sometimes the harm of delaying the inclusion of a complex, high-quality primary study in favour of either waiting years for a review which will likely adopt its findings anyway, or settling for a mention in another study's introduction which will likely only cover a fraction of relevant information would exceed the supposed benefits to reliability incurred from doing so. To me, this is where the argument seems to be at - as was already pointed out, the basic point of "prefer secondary sources to primary ones" is already part of WP:PSTS.

  Again, I'll add another example from climate science. One thing which makes it distinctive from most other sciences is not only that much of it deals with the future, but also that it deals with the future as directly shaped by human actions in the present and upcoming days. Besides the WP:NOW implications, this means that climate-related papers routinely make not one prediction but several, in accordance to Representative Concentration Pathways / Shared Socioeconomic Pathways and occasionally other factors (i.e. research on species' vulnerability to climatic risks may include different predictions for the same scenario based on different assumptions about species' dispersal success). This kind of nuance will rarely be seen when the paper is cited in another primary source - in my experience, there'll often just be a reference to paper's finding under the most extreme scenario (something like "up to X million will be affected by year Y", where "up to" conceals the estimates under all the other scenarios.) I believe that any policy which would force us into adopting such framings purely due to citing decisions made for a very different audience (academic readers of climate literature are assumed to be aware of these scenarios and how they affect findings by default, which is obviously not true for the general readers of Wikipedia) would be deeply flawed, so I continue to press this argument.

  Further, I would again emphasize the difference in what can be considered a "primary source". I maintain that an in vitro analysis of drug candidates, an observational study in a couple of hospitals or even a proper RCT are still not the same as field research collected over years by teams living on polar stations for months at a time, or data collected from hundreds of profiling floats or any other such examples. Consider something like a volcanic eruption. Can you imagine restricting coverage on eruptions to secondary sources only? If not, then how different are they, really, from the eroding glaciers or burning forests, or even the slowing ocean currents? InformationToKnowledge (talk) 14:26, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Support, though I'd be in favor of some tweaks/changes, eg I think it's too long, and should also say more about sources being a mix of primary and secondary (eg a novel study might be a good source for current state-of-the-science background). But the core of it, identifying the difference between primary and secondary in science, would be useful to have as a guideline, particularly to prevent against the misuse or overuse of primary sources, basically the same thing that medrs does for medicine. Levivich (talk) 02:06, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

The analogy between MEDRS and SCIRS has problems, mostly to do with why they exist. MEDRS was invented because we knew that people would read WP for medical advice and we don't want to kill anyone. This gives a very strong motive for strict rules on medicine that does not apply to general science articles. I don't see a strong reason why science is different from, say, history. Zero^talk 02:59, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

These rules aren't very strict IMO and apply to all fields, which to say, lots of fields could use a ___RS. MEDRS to explain different levels of reliability in medical sources, SCIRS for general science sources, I think there should be a LAWRS for legal sources (that would explain about citing court opinions v. treatises, etc.), and yes, a HISTRS for history sources (that would explain about citing historians for history v. non-historian scholars v. news media, for example). (Btw I never bought into the whole people-look-at-WP-for-medical-advice-and-might-die argument.) Levivich (talk) 04:48, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't have a memory any more, but my recollection is that both MEDRS and BLP were more or less forced on us by the higher-ups as they were afraid of being sued. In the early days Wikipedia was not filthy rich like it is now. Zero^talk 04:54, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Unpopular opinion: at least the money has bought better higher-ups; I think the current management team is the best one so far. Levivich (talk) 05:04, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

@Zero0000 As far as I know, BLP and MEDRS were invented by the English Wikipedia community with no higher-ups forcing us to. In 2009, the WMF board passed a resolution urging all WMF projects to adopt BLP policies. By that time, our BLP policy was already three years old. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 05:21, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Looking at its talk page archives, it seems that WP:MEDRS was spun off in an organic, creepy way from WP:MEDMOS. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:20, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose - I think that even MEDRS is too restricting, although I understand that in that case we need to be concerned about people taking medical advice from Wikipedia (despite Wikipedia:Medical disclaimer, which hopefully prevents any liability but certainly won't stop most people). In the case of science, this concern is irrelevant. Animal lover |666| 07:09, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. One of the cornerstones of Wikipedia is verifiability. One problem with using secondary sources is that they often do not cite with enough precision where they got their information from. It might often be from out-of-date or otherwise unreliable sources, but, even if not, you can't always tell. That is why I often prefer a primary source, which anyone can follow up to check the quality of the evidence. Ideally I like to include the primary source together with a recent secondary source so as to demonstrate that the claim in the primary source is still trusted. This is my experience particulary in editing natural-history articles about particular species. So I would like to retain the current ambiguity, that at least allows primary sources even if it does not favour them as much as I would wish. JMCHutchinson (talk) 12:04, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose - A lot of science isn't really like medicine, which is extremely complex and needs many clinical trials and reviews to establish 'truth'. I don't think non-medical science necessarily needs a guideline separate from the Wikipedia-wide ones that already exist. For example, I'd really, really hate to see info in articles about interesting and unique but obscure species purged for "failing SCIRS" because it isn't from a literature review, like is done for poorly supported health claims based on a single study of 12 lab mice or whatever and MEDRS. Same principle for info about exoplanet discoveries, and probably many other things in the non-medical sciences - the system of clinical trials and evidence-based medicine doesn't apply. Crossroads ^-talk- 23:52, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose In 2008, when WP:MEDRS was accepted as a guideline, it began with the rationale that "Wikipedia's medical articles, while not a source of medical advice, are nonetheless an important health information resource," whereas WP:SCIRS lacks this public safety impetus. When Joe cites WP:PSTS as already warning against reliance on peer-reviewed primary literature because it is primary, it misses that while peer review is flawed, there is clearly a distinction between such papers and a lab's press releases. The promotion of WP:SCIRS would undoubtedly be used to delete articles on species that have only been described in a few primary scientific articles on the basis that a scientific consensus is yet to form, despite the reality that without the governemnt and private sector funding allocated to medical research, thousands of species will remain without secondary literature reviews for the foreseeable future. BluePenguin18 🐧 ( 💬 ) 21:09, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

References

Userpage policy in regards to offensive and violence-related quotes

Based on this discussion, there seems to be some disagreement on both the valid interpretation and scope of Wikipedia:UPNOT. The issue itself is resolved, but I believe that an improvement of the guideline (or as a secondary option, a clarification) would be desirable.

Should the policy be stricter/clearer when it comes to content that is likely to cause broad offence, as well as content that justifies, excuses or endorses violent acts (or can be reasonably interpreted as such)? FortunateSons (talk) 13:51, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

The referenced discussion can now be found at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive361 § @JDiala uses two quotes that I believe to be a userpage violation.. jlwoodwa (talk) 22:43, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

My opinion is that we should be much stricter - and disallow ALL expressions of support/opposition for issues unrelated to Wikipedia on our user pages. This isn’t the venue for it. Blueboar (talk) 15:11, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

If this isn't the venue, then what is? starship.paint (RUN) 15:17, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Reddit, Facebook, Twitter, a personal blog? BilledMammal (talk) 15:21, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

I believe that this is a misunderstanding, which I also had: Blueboar is referring to Wikipedia not being the place for political expression, not that the Village Pump is the wrong place for my suggestion, correct? FortunateSons (talk) 15:23, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

My apologies for the misunderstanding. starship.paint (RUN) 15:26, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

• Exactly what is broadly offensive? Is it "the greatest destroyer of peace today is abortion" or could it be "No woman can call herself free until she can choose consciously whether she will or will not be a mother"? Is it "God has no religion"? starship.paint (RUN) 15:26, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

  That’s a fair point, but also the issue with making any consistent standard. I would go for “likely to be considered inflammatory by a non-insignificant amount of editors“, but that does come with its own issue. Basically “I like this group considered terrorists by many countries” is subject to removal, “I like this goal (assuming it’s compatible with human rights and international law) of said group” is not. For example, supporting many of the goals of Lehi (militant group) shouldn’t be sanctionable, but supporting the group itself should.

  Alternatively, we could pick a country with reasonable hate speech, anti-terrorism ans incitement laws and base our standards on them? FortunateSons (talk) 15:37, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

  Regarding those specific examples, I am honestly not familiar enough with the American political discourse to make a clear judgement. However, generic pro-life and pro-choice statements should be permissible, while “abortion is murder” should not. FortunateSons (talk) 15:39, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

  The notion that women cannot choose offends the pro-choice, and the notion of destroying fetuses offends the pro-life. The notion that God _______ can offend the religious. That's the problem with offense. starship.paint (RUN) 15:54, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

  Is there an alternative approach that you would consider feasible? The current version does not seem to be specific enough to be useful. FortunateSons (talk) 15:57, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

  I am not sure of that myself. starship.paint (RUN) 01:43, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

  @Starship.paint Do you like Stephen Fry? [14] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:22, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

  "abortion is murder" does not advocate violence, it simply compares something to violence. It and similar statements should be allowed, unless we have a broader consensus to remove all political speech from userpages. Toadspike (talk) 12:59, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

  This was just about the broadly offensive part. None of the “standard” positions on abortions are violence-related. FortunateSons (talk) 13:54, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

If we want to ditch userpages, fine by me. If we want to keep them, the existing guidelines are sufficient imo. Selfstudier (talk) 15:27, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

I think we have three options:

1. Editors may not express support for any position that is controversial in any part of the world
2. Editors may not express support for any position that is unrelated to Wikipedia
3. Editors may express support for any position that is mainstream in any part of the world. Editors may not express support for violence, regardless of whether the position supported is mainstream.

The current status quo, where what we allow and reject is based on the opinions of whoever turns up at the relevant discussion, is arbitrary and typically contrary to our status as a global encyclopaedia.

I lean towards #1 or #2, but #3 has the benefit of being transparent - if someone wants to tell us they are very biased, perhaps we should let them? BilledMammal (talk) 15:28, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

No controversy means no politics, no social issues, at least. Mainstream, what is that? Is Israel mainstream? Is Palestine mainstream? Is Hamas mainstream? Is North Korea mainstream? Is Iran mainstream? Is Qatar mainstream? starship.paint (RUN) 15:33, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes - if it’s mainstream in Israel, or Qatar, or Palestine, or even North Korea, it would be permitted under #3.BilledMammal (talk) 15:36, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

I think all 3 are valid choices, with a minor caveat that 3 does not have to be exlicit (example: believes that there should be no place for (x ethnic/religious/social group/GSM) in (place) is implicitly violent even if there is no action or policy prescription attached.). FortunateSons (talk) 15:42, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

A hard no to #1. That meant that a simple statement of fact may be seen as controversial in some parts of the world. Ie "Guns are not needed in everyday life." A position valid and practiced in many parts of the world would be deemed as controversial by many in US. – robertsky (talk) 15:47, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Why should an editor state his/her position on guns in the first place? How does it benefit the project? Blueboar (talk) 11:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

This idea that userpage content must benefit the project, where does that come from? We have a rule like that for article talk pages, quite right too, but why should it be extended to user pages? Selfstudier (talk) 11:57, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a blog, web hosting service, social networking service, or memorial site does say, Wikipedians have individual user pages, but they should be used primarily to present information relevant to work on the encyclopedia. Limited autobiographical information is allowed, but user pages do not serve as personal webpages, blogs, or repositories for large amounts of material irrelevant to collaborating on Wikipedia. That rule does not get enforced consistently, but I think it does say that material on a user page must primarily support the mission of Wikipedia. If a user really wants to include other content that does not directly support the mission of Wikipedia, they can put it on a subpage, where it is less likely to be noticed. Of course, if the content is offensive enough, or violates a policy, then the community can still insist that it be removed. Donald Albury 20:01, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

OK, some small (as in not large) amount of material is permissible, I have not seen myself any case involving a large amount but then I am not in the habit of scrutinizing user pages. That plus the rest of the guides, rules or whatever we wish to call them can be used by the community to determine whether a specific piece or amount of content is compliant as was actually done in the instance leading to this discussion, without the need for any further rules. Selfstudier (talk) 21:06, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Given that my userbox has been repeatedly complained about by some of the more insistent voices here, I hope you’ll allow me to shift the scenario slightly. My userbox is about Wikipedia, about the systemic biases of its editorship, and how those biases allow for supposed political correctness to trump basic fairness and equality. And we see it time and again. How many users have some statement in solidarity with Ukraine? That doesn’t get complained about, though having something as anodyne as I support Ukraine is realistically supportive of violence, namely Ukrainian violence against Russia. This, and nearly every time this has come up in the past, has been about censoring some positions over others. So unless the rule is we should all have red links for user pages I don’t see a single proposal that wouldn’t be used to further enforce what is an already existing systemic bias. nableezy - 21:51, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

The equivalent counterpart of "I support Ukraine" is "I support <insert your favorite country>", and not what the userbox in question says. Regardless, overall, I think that it's better to address any systemic bias issues in Wikipedia by disallowing calls for violence rather than by adding more of them, only directed against the "right" people. spintheer (talk) 22:49, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

There isnt a call to violence in my userpage/box, and calls to violence are already disallowed. nableezy - 22:57, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it would - that would be the idea, we shouldn’t be picking and choosing which positions we accept/reject.

With that said, perhaps we should add exceptions for positions that are genuine and undisputed statements of fact - for example, “the earth revolves around sun”. BilledMammal (talk) 16:02, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

And point 3 is prone to majority capture. Case in point, western powers have had tried to spin the story that there is a genocide in Xinjiang with flimsy proofs at some levels and USA propaganda machine driving behind this as well, and the article was at Uyghur genocide for 3.5 years before the current title. If one believes that there was no genocide and expressed as such on their user page, wouldn't that be condemned as well? – robertsky (talk) 04:51, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Three should allow editors to express that position, as it is a mainstream position in, at the very least, China. BilledMammal (talk) 04:56, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Ideal, but practical? People don't always interpret things you want them. The current consensus on RS deprecate many Chinese sources, and may just go 'hey, your position is not based on reliable sources therefore not mainstream'. – robertsky (talk) 12:08, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

My preference is #2, but within reasonable limits Well, I'm conflicted. On one side, I think politics and ethical questions should stay generally stay off userpages, having nothing to do with the project and more often being divisive—for example, a userbox saying "I am Christian/Muslim/Jewish/Athiest/etc." isn't helpful and honestly kind of annoying— but I don't have a problem with, say, a userbox boldly stating that "This user supports Red Dwarf coming back for a fourteenth season", or something like that.

On the other hand, a significant part of me says, "Ah, what the hell, let people say whatever they want on their own userpages".

There's merit to both sides here, so I doubt this discussion will come to any useful consensus. Our current policies are the sort of bland, milquetoast decisions Wikipedia does best. Cremastra (talk) 13:32, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

No. Neither "content that is likely to cause broad offence," nor "content that justifies, excuses or endorses violent acts (or can be reasonably interpreted as such)" are a problem. In the real world, causing broad offense is extremely common: a woman without her face or hair covered will cause broad offense in some places, whereas requiring a woman to cover her face or hair will cause broad offense in other places. Both supporting and opposing gay rights will cause broad offense among different groups of people. In fact, every important issue will cause broad offense in one way or another: climate change, gun control, abortion rights, immigration, poverty, COVID, the definitions of "man" and "woman" and "person" and on and on.

Similarly, violence is sometimes justified, and all humans engage in and depend on it, either directly or indirectly. Pacifism ("violence is never the answer") is naive, our societies are built on violence, our physical safety and comfort are secured by violence. It's an inseparable part of life. "Violence is never justified" is just untrue and easy to disprove, so there is no logic in banning all expressions of justification or support of violence.

I agree with Self: we either have free speech (in userpages) or we don't. Either one is fine with me. But trying to control that speech, especially with unrealistic rules like banning speech that gives offense or justifies/excuses/supports violence, is unrealistic, and attempts to do so offend me :-P Levivich (talk) 16:02, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

I must admit that the last line is funny :/

Having said that, are you then in favor of removing the current version as well? FortunateSons (talk) 16:04, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I think I'd be fine with deleting all of UPNOT. This website should have one set of rules about what you can't write here, and it should apply to all pages, and it should be in the TOU, stuff like no threats of violence, no discrimination, no promoting a business/product, no copyright violation, etc. I'm not sure we need anything beyond the TOU, and let the WMF enforce it. So basically the same as every other user generated content website. Levivich (talk) 16:09, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Ok, let’s add that as #4 FortunateSons (talk) 16:11, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

At the risk of opening up the scope of this, should it apply to userboxes as well? FortunateSons (talk) 16:12, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Yeah it doesn't matter if the text has a border around it or not :-) Levivich (talk) 16:14, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Makes sense :) FortunateSons (talk) 16:14, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

To put your position in line with what I say above, would your position be #4 - Editors may express support for any position that is mainstream in any part of the world? (#3 without the exception)

Note that this would include calls for ethnic cleaning, honour killings, etc - forbidding these was why I added the exception to #3. BilledMammal (talk) 16:06, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

No, I'd say editors can express anything that's not a TOU violation. No defamation, copyvio, death threats, discrimination, etc., but unpopular opinions are fine. Levivich (talk) 16:13, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

How would you distinguish between discriminatory and non-discriminatory violence? FortunateSons (talk) 16:14, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

So #4, unless the content violates the UCoC? (The TOS doesn’t talk about violence etc, it refers to the UCoC - although I note that under the UCoC I don’t think expressing support for discrimination would be forbidden, although I may be mistaken) BilledMammal (talk) 16:18, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

I think the relevant passages of UCoC are:

1. Hate speech in any form, or discriminatory language aimed at vilifying, humiliating, inciting hatred against individuals or groups on the basis of who they are or their personal beliefs
2. The use of symbols, images, categories, tags or other kinds of content that are intimidating or harmful to others outside of the context of encyclopedic, informational use. This includes imposing schemes on content intended to marginalize or ostracize.

FortunateSons (talk) 16:21, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm saying don't have an enwiki userpage policy at all, because we already have TOU#4, which incorporates UCOC#3, and those are sufficient, enwiki doesn't need to make separate rules about this. Levivich (talk) 16:30, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

If we don’t have rules - one way or the other - we’ll just continue with our practice of forbidding and allowing based on local consensus, in an arbitrary way that reflects our systematic biases. BilledMammal (talk) 16:33, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

We have rules: TOU/UCOC. Arbitrary local consensus that reflects our systematic biases is called "democracy," and it's the best decision making process we've been able to come up with so far. To put it another way, the place to have rules about what we cannot write on this website is TOU/UCOC. The better approach (IMO) isn't to think about what should we ban on userpages, but what should we allow on userpages that we don't allow on other pages (if anything). And I think we should allow anything on userpages that's compliant with TOU/UCOC. Levivich (talk) 17:01, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

If that’s the route we want to go ("we should allow anything on userpages that's compliant with TOU/UCOC”) I think we should explicitly say that, to minimise the chance of what I describe. BilledMammal (talk) 17:15, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

I'd support revising WP:UPNOT to basically say "see TOU." Levivich (talk) 17:40, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Suggestions for #4: All content permissible according to ToU and UCoC is allowed on user pages. FortunateSons (talk) 17:44, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Regardless of what rules are in place, unless there's a change in English Wikipedia's decision-making traditions, enforcement will continue to be done with the current consensus-based methods, and thus will still be determined by whichever editors happen to get involved in any given discussion. Yes, this gives activist editors an outsized voice. But since changing this would require those same editors to relinquish influence, English Wikipedia hasn't reached a consensus to do anything else. isaacl (talk) 17:08, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Concur with Levivich here. Simonm223 (talk) 17:12, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Similarly, violence is sometimes justified, and all humans engage in and depend on it, either directly or indirectly. Pacifism ("violence is never the answer") is naive, our societies are built on violence, our physical safety and comfort are secured by violence.

A. This doesn't change the fact that English Wikipedia is an international forum, so actively calling for violence against other humans in any context necessarily means calling for violence against other potential members of the Wikipedia community.

B. violence is sometimes justified is such a short-sighted statement. Once you welcome people to call for violence when it's "justified", the goalpost of what is "justified" will slip right between your fingers towards things you didn't intend. >"Some violence is justified!" >"Wait no not like that"

Either we allow calls for violence by anyone for anyone, or not at all. Welcoming calls for violence "sometimes" will mean that we'll have to start playing a "draw the line" game, which won't end well for this project.spintheer (talk) 17:29, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

You're making a slippery slope argument: that's almost always flawed logic IMO. "Draw the line game" is called "making decisions," and it's what we do as humans, on and off wiki. The lines we draw are called "laws" and "rules," on wiki we call them "policies" and "guidelines" and we have a ton of them and the project would be a lot worse if we didn't have any, or if they said "either everything is allowed or nothing is allowed."

For example, I oppose the violence that the Russian military is perpetrating against Ukraine. I support the violence that the Ukrainian military is perpetrating against the Russian military, to an extent. That extent -- the line that's drawn -- is international law such as the Geneva conventions. I oppose the violence that violates the international laws of war, but I support the defensive violence that is permitted by those laws. That's not a problem, it's not inconsistent, and it's better than either supporting or opposing all violence. This is just one example of defending violence, and it would be easy to come up with others. Levivich (talk) 17:40, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

"Draw the line game" is called "making decisions," and it's what we do as humans, on and off wiki. Of course, this is a general truth that doesn't actually address my point. Of course policies draw lines to balance competing objectives in the best way possible. I'm not saying to stop drawing lines in general. I'm saying that policies are created and lines are drawn in order to serve the long-term productive development of this project. In this specific case, the line drawing would decide what people is it ok to advocate violence against within Wikipedia, and what people you're not allowed to. It would involve deciding in what contexts advocating for brutality is "justified", and when it's not allowed. My point is that making a (inevitably arbitrary) decision in these questions means that it'd always be fair game for debate, which means that we'll regularly revisit this sort of policy, because by definition there'll always be someone who disagrees. Engaging and reengaging in this sort of policy discussion is (a) completely inappropriate and disconnected from improving the encyclopedia and (b) will significantly hurt the English Wikipedia project more than any supposed benefit that it would bring. In the long run, any outcome of such a policy decision would hurt the project and alienate productive members of the community.

Therefore, it's better to prohibit everyone from supporting violence on Wikipedia in any form. Making some support for violence acceptable means that we'll have to revisit this topic, which I believe will inevitably be derailed into places that will fundamentally hurt the project. spintheer (talk) 00:00, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Best to worry less about what's on an editor's userpage & more about whether or not they're pushing their beliefs on other pages. GoodDay (talk) 16:07, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

This is broadly correct barring explicit hate speech. Simonm223 (talk) 17:13, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

But...I do hate speeches. They're long and boring and you have to stand there the whole time. They normally don't even serve snacks or anything. GMG^talk 14:20, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

You must have been to bad speeches, I often got some snacks. Perhaps you only hate speeches if you're hungry? FortunateSons (talk) 14:24, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

User pages being unowned and not a free speech forum like everything else, here, should remain editable, including sometimes removal of text or pictures (we even do it for user comments, so user pages should be no different) -- sometimes but rarely there will be disagreements, and then just settle it like we do every other disagreement (short version: does this promote the working purposes of the project or not). -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:08, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm broadly in agreement with GoodDay and Alanscottwalker and don't see a reason why we should take any action.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:11, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

The question isn't "is it offensive", but "is it disruptive". At best, posting opinions about contentious topics unrelated to Wikipedia's purpose will aggravate other users, impacting our ability to collaborate. At worst, it can actively scare potential editors away—one of the most damaging things you can possibly do to Wikipedia—or create a chilling effect that makes a given group feel unwelcome on the project. Conversely, WP:TIGER applies. If someone feels so strongly about a topic that they have to shout out their beliefs on their user page as if it were a social media page, they are not fit to edit in that area, broadly construed. If there's anyone who should be made to feel unwelcome, it's the tigers, not the people who they oppose. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:49, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Idk, it kinda depends on topic. If it weren't for feeling very strongly about a topic, I would not have spent 100+ hours on Murder of George Floyd or Nakba. What else but strong feelings could possibly motivate anyone to edit about such grim subjects, or any subject? Dispassionate editing is an unrealistic expectation; the best we can do is try to productively channel the passion. If it weren't for tigers, I don't think some articles would exist. (And I bet the museum curators who create tiger exhibits are extremely passionate about tigers.) Levivich (talk) 05:13, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. Simonm223 (talk) 10:54, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Of course we want editors to care about the topics they work on… BUT… they must maintain a level of NEUTRALITY while doing so. That means they must curb their passions. If an editor can’t do that, they probably shouldn’t be editing on that topic. Blueboar (talk) 12:00, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

And what evidence is there for the supposition that having personal beliefs on a user page makes it so that an editor can not edit neutrally? nableezy - 12:04, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Or they need be passionate about verifiable, neutral, original writing but unoriginal research presentation, with extra care for living person information. Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:14, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

The truth is that every single editor on Wikipedia has strong opinions on the pages they edit. Our agreement to work within a model of consensual collaboration toward neutrality is independent from that truth and my main frustration when editing is not people who argue passionately but rather those who feign dispassion. And it is worth noting that this passion will create points of view especially with regard to reliability and WP:DUE - which is why consensus and neutrality guidelines are critical to the project. Literally 0% of this will change if we censor userpages to create a mask of dispassion. Simonm223 (talk) 12:46, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Regarding your frustration, perhaps consider you are making at least two assumptions: 1) to write, everyone must have strong opinions about subjects; and 2) people around you are feigning something. Neither of those assumptions are invariably true. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:02, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I've found that the "everyone has strong views when writing Wikipedia and is naturally going to push their POV" line tells us more about the people saying it than about editors in general. Most (but not all) of the people protesting against de-blogifying userpages are people who have contribution histories just screaming "I'm here to push a POV". Thebiguglyalien (talk) 20:49, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

If I were to be as uncivil as you I’d say that about the people pushing to restrict userpages. nableezy - 08:40, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't seem to have the capacity to take myself seriously enough to be offended by anything anymore, so I can't really say anything useful about the rules. But it seems to me that the edge cases that can get people excited are often situations where people take the words and garnish them with a bit of inference about the editor's state of mind, or let's say they hallucinate, then get offended by the thing they made, which is absolutely real from their perspective. So, maybe a simpler solution is for editors to embrace the fact that we are not as smart as we think and stare at this photo for a minute while reciting "I am not a forensic psychologist". Sean.hoyland (talk) 13:45, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm very smart, implying I'm not is sooo offensive. Selfstudier (talk) 13:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Thebiguglyalien has repeatedly attacked people for being dishonest (eg here), of hav[ing] contribution histories just screaming "I'm here to push a POV"., of being WP:SPAs in contentious topics who anyone with eyes can see are WP:CPUSHers by looking at their user pages, contributions, and participation in discussions (those latter ones in this discussion, one above one below), and they do so without any evidence or even an attempt at providing it. They have repeatedly attacked other editors, and in a normal world they would be sanctioned for repeated WP:ASPERSIONs. But we arent in that world, we are in one where somebody can repeatedly attack others without consequence because they think they are right, and they think that so much they dont even have to show any evidence at all to prove they are right, because it is obvious to anybody with eyes. Yeah, well, I think a lot of things are obvious about Thebiguglyalien as well, but Ill follow the rules on keeping them to myself. nableezy - 15:17, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Weirdly you rarely see people accusing themselves or even considering the possibility of self-deception for the flash-fiction stories they make up to try to make sense of things. People thinking they are right is the bit that I never understand. Maybe people should keep an "All the times I was wrong about anything" diary. Put it on their user page. Sean.hoyland (talk) 17:26, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

• Consensus is messy and not always clear. Sometimes, there is no consensus. That is how it works in a collaborative project with people from all over the world. Written policy here doesn't dictate practice, instead, practice dictates the written policy. Since there isn't a clear consensus for a rule change, I would say no change is needed, and some problems have to just be worked out one at a time. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 12:39, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Infoboxes and such should be limited to Wikipedia related things. Text in the users own voice is their call. Subject to 1) existing policies and guidelines and 2) the user having to face the fact that others may see them as walking piles of dogshit and treat them accordingly. Free speech does not free you from the consequences of your speech. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 18:21, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Let people post their inflammatory/demeaning/promotional/etc. statements on their userpages. Then you know who the problem users are who need extra eyes watching them. 24.24.242.66 (talk) 02:20, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

This is a very important and often overlooked point – but the risk is people may come across the problematic userpages without being clued into this implicit agreement and assume other editors have no issue with their content. There's no way for someone new to the site to tell whether we are pragmatically tolerating these editors for the sake of more easily identifying the bad ones or, you know, actually tolerating them, which leads to the chilling effects Thebiguglyalien mentioned. – Teratix ₵ 06:30, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

If we allow offensive content on user pages, one option would be to allow editors to add a notice to the top saying that these views are solely the views of the individual, and may include views considered abhorrent and rejected by the broader community. Obviously, the editor whose talk page this notice was added to would not be permitted to remove it unilaterally. BilledMammal (talk) 11:43, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Why isn't that a standard thing anyways? I know that the encyclopedia doesn't do disclaimers, but user pages are (or at the very least are widely perceived as) not really part of the encyclopedia. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:17, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

There is The userpage box (I put it after someone complained my page could be mistaken for a WP page). Maybe could add to it "Please don't complain about anything here". Selfstudier (talk) 12:24, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

• The bare minimum standard for a Wikipedia userpage is it shouldn't be disruptive, go out of its way to offend other editors, or end up provoking massive timesink discussions. If a fellow editor expresses a good-faith complaint about something on your userpage, you're being an anti-social jerk if you insist on digging your heels in and doubling down on retaining it. – Teratix ₵ 06:51, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
• An alternative more fun approach could be to require all editors to include at least some offensive material on their user page, but on the condition that it is material they personally find very offensive. Sean.hoyland (talk) 11:40, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

  I would personally support that option too ;) FortunateSons (talk) 11:47, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

  I like the idea of someone working with an editor for months, finding them very rational etc., then going to their user page and 'yikes, this guy really hates baby animals and canadians. was not expecting that'. Sean.hoyland (talk) 12:11, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

  RfAs will be fun with some tripping over such materials. 😂 – robertsky (talk) 14:34, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

• content that justifies, excuses or endorses violent acts (or can be reasonably interpreted as such) is hopelessly black and white, for a start. What about "I'm proud that my grandfather fought in the Second World War", "This user is a policeman" or "I like my steak rare"? – Joe (talk) 11:51, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

  Or I support Israel's right to defend itself, which is being called genocide in many places. Animal lover |666| 07:38, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

  Assuming you are referring to armed self defence, yes, even in cases were no-one believes it’s genocide. It’s the same as Palestinian right to (violently) resist, an endorsement of use of force. FortunateSons (talk) 08:00, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

  This gets even more murky if you consider statements like "I am a proud American" to be supporting violence (since modern United States is built on Native American lands). spintheer (talk) 14:40, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

  Or even just "I live in the United States", by extending the same reason spintheer (talk) 16:59, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

  We can argue this ad infinitum, but would you agree that:

  1. “User“ supports ISIS
  2. “A quote by Hitler“
  3. “User“ believes that „warcrime“ is valid if the victims are members of „group“
  4. “User“ believes that „group“ should not be allowed to vote/get married/be citizens of […].
  5. X is justified in causing (physical) harm to Y
  6. X has a right to kill Y.

  are and should be permitted on a userpage, particularly of someone who edits in the relevant areas? FortunateSons (talk) 17:24, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

  Allowing users to put these example on their user pages does far more harm than good to the project imo. I was just extending Joe's argument to show that virtually anything can be construed as support for violence if you stretch it far enough, so some line needs to be drawn. I think that the current policy is too permissive in this regard. If it were less permissive, we wouldn't be having this conversation and people would just keep their violence-supporting opinions off of wikipedia. spintheer (talk) 18:16, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

  Makes sense, sorry I misunderstood your point. FortunateSons (talk) 18:21, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

• Editors should be allowed say whatever they wish. We can't get into the business of policing speech. But the latter is conditional on use of such quotations being construed as WP:BATTLEFIELD conduct resulting in indefinite topic bans. Coretheapple (talk) 14:07, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

  Which is what we have been doing? What has been broken? – robertsky (talk) 14:36, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

  No, which we have not been doing. Coretheapple (talk) 17:58, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

  If that was the practice we wouldn't be having this discussion. Coretheapple (talk) 18:30, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

This is starting to go around in circles. At this point, we either need to create an RfC or accept that this discussion has been a waste of time. Presumably, an RfC would be to update WP:UPNOT and include options like:

• Disallow all opinion content unrelated to Wikipedia on user pages
• Disallow opinion content about controversial, contentious, or politically charged topics unrelated to Wikipedia on user pages
• Disallow hate speech (defined as content that denigrates individuals or groups based on personal characteristics such as nationality, religion, sexual orientation, race, etc) on user pages
• Allow users to include any opinion content on their userpages as long as it does not violate other policies such as threats of harm, copyrighted material, etc
• No change, enforce the current user page guideline which disallows things such as "Extensive personal opinions on matters unrelated to Wikipedia", "Extensive writings and material on topics having virtually no chance whatsoever of being directly useful to the project", and "Polemical statements unrelated to Wikipedia"

Note that "offensive content" is not mentioned, because it's been made clear that there's no standard for measuring offensiveness. Also note that "opinion content" does not include expression of identity. Simply stating one's nationality, religion, sexual orientation, etc would be allowed under any of these options, while defining oneself as having a certain political ideology or being "pro-" or "anti-" would be political opinion. The next question would be which of these options are viable, and what specific wording should be used. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:13, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

accept that this discussion has been a waste of time Count me in that camp. Selfstudier (talk) 21:25, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Count me as camp RfC, with options being a mix of yours and @BilledMammals; I might open one at a more reasonable time, but am happy for someone else to do it as well. :) FortunateSons (talk) 21:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Also in the RfC camp. I would add an option: "Disallow content that directly promotes or calls for the use of physical violence".

An RfC would help reduce time waste, because it could alleviate the need for future discussions about this topic. spintheer (talk) 22:13, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Waste of time. No one has presented a concrete option that actually seems like it would gain support. The RFC options are basically either things we already do, INCREDIBLY subjective, or complete non-starters, even just based on this discussion. Please don't waste everyone's time with this. The ANI thread this is based on couldn't even find consensus about this, it just so happened that a random admin decided to make a call. Parabolist (talk) 06:02, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Ding. In this thread, users upset that views they dislike are allowed. Sorry? nableezy - 06:41, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Correction: Users are discussing whether it would be a net benefit to this project to implement a policy change that limits the expression of views which promote/support violence on Wikipedia. spintheer (talk) 13:56, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

No, they aren’t, and the genesis of this discussion makes that clear. nableezy - 13:57, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

If a user writes on his/her userpage that I believe that the October 7th attacks were legitimate resistance to Israel, they are telling us quite clearly what bias they have; if they edit Israel-related articles in a skewed way, we should be quicker to ban them than we would a user whose opinions are completely unknown to us. Animal lover |666| 14:24, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Why is it that you think that holding that belief is unacceptable somehow? What matters is a persons article edits, and editing in a skewed manner, not only in the direction you disagree with, is what counts. nableezy - 08:45, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I had no intention to claim that only skewing in the anti-Israel direction is wrong. We want to be a neutral encyclopedia, but no one is completely neutral on any topic they truely understand. Anyone who is able to edit articles on a given topic in a neutral way is certainly welcome; anyone who can't, especially in CT topics, is not. Statements made on one's user page should be used as evidence of one's opinions, especially when deciding how to deal with them in case of skewed article edits. Animal lover |666| 14:48, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

If somebody is editing in an inappropriate manner then their user page has no relevance at all to the correct sanction. People's opinions have nothing to do with if their article edits are proper. And any attempt at legislating on the basis of those opinions is going to lead to more entrenched systemic bias. And lest we forget, NPOV does not mean that Wikipedia defines what is "neutral" and then demand that its articles, and editors, follow that. No, NPOV means including all significant views, and trying to legislate out significant views is a direct assault on that neutrality. nableezy - 15:10, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

User:ExpertPrime is an interesting case study. Is this OK? Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 09:10, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

The user page wasn't good, but I indeffed them for their behavior. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 09:18, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Regarding acts of violence: I think power of violence (and eat the rich if we are being pedantic) is a rather clear violation of Wikipedia:UPNOT. The OSS one is fine, the Israeli one is fine (though those two together and the talk page would make me cautious about the future editing of this user in the relevant area, which was resolved by @ScottishFinnishRadish anyway), the communism and antifa ones are fine.

The writing on the top of the page is a rather clear sign that they are incapable of being a productive member of Wikipedia, but non-violent.

It also makes up way too much space of the user page, same issue we had in the original case. FortunateSons (talk) 09:23, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I think there are some userboxes which might be fine on their own, but user pages which combine them to tell a combative story in hieroglyphic fashion are not. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 09:43, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, that too FortunateSons (talk) 09:44, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

• Comment - I'd recommend not opening an RFC on this topic. The topic-in-general, has the potential to be messy. GoodDay (talk) 14:51, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Suggested RfC structure

I think a 2-way-split is optimal

Should the policies regarding userpages be changed in the following way:

Opinion content unrelated to Wikipedia

A. Disallow all opinion content

B. Disallow opinion content about controversial, contentious, or politically charged topics on user pages

C. Disallow opinion that can be perceived as offensive by any reasonable person regardless of their location

D. Disallow hate speech (defined as content that denigrates individuals or groups based on personal characteristics such as nationality, religion, sexual orientation, race, etc) on user pages

E. Allow users to include any opinion content on their userpages as long as it does not violate other policies such as threats of harm, copyrighted material, etc

F. Like E, but allow for a topic ban on the affected topic if the user does not remove it upon request

G. No change, enforce the current user page guideline which disallows things such as "Extensive personal opinions on matters unrelated to Wikipedia", "Extensive writings and material on topics having virtually no chance whatsoever of being directly useful to the project", and "Polemical statements unrelated to Wikipedia"

Violence

A. Allow calls for violence, unless direct at (groups of editors) or specific people or protected classes

B. Allows for calls for violence only against entities (states, armies, companies)

B. Disallow calls for violence, but allow for justification or excuse (see A for restrictions)

C. Disallow explicit justification or excuse, but allow implicit statements of support

D. Ban all statements that are not broadly considered legal (ex. believes in individual self defence)

E. Ban all positive statements about violence

F. Ban all statements about violence (including their condemnation) FortunateSons (talk) 11:09, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Inspired by @BilledMammal and partially copied from @Thebiguglyalien, I hope to have fully covered all serious suggestions. Does anyone feel like their option is left out? FortunateSons (talk) 11:11, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

An RfC with fourteen different options has zero chance of producing any productive discussion at all, let alone a consensus to change anything. – Teratix ₵ 11:15, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

You are right, I think a violence-related one would be a productive start. FortunateSons (talk) 11:19, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

The "Opinion content unrelated to Wikipedia" approach is doomed because editors can't reliably differentiate between a statement of opinion and a statement of fact. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:03, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Second attempt at violence-related RfC

A. Allow calls for violence, unless direct at (groups of editors) or specific people or protected classes

B. Disallow calls for violence, but allow for justification or excuse (see A for restrictions)

C. ban content that advocates, encourages, or condones acts of violence (generally including excusing, trivializing, or normalizing these issues as tolerable or of little importance)

D. C, but actually enforce it

E. Ban all statements that are not broadly considered legal (ex. believes in individual self defence)

F. Ban all positive statements about violence FortunateSons (talk) 11:22, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Down to 6, is that usable? FortunateSons (talk) 11:23, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Still too many options, in my opinion - and most of the options are also unclear as to what they would entail. I would suggest just two options:

A. Editors may express support for any position that does not violate the Terms of Use or the Universal Code of Conduct

B. Editors may not express support for any position unrelated to Wikipedia

If the consensus is A we can have a followup RfC about permitting the placement of a disclaimer on the user pages of editors with controversial opinions. BilledMammal (talk) 13:47, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good, feel free to open it if you there is no disagreement. FortunateSons (talk) 13:50, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Workshopping is the first thing for a policy. No point in opening it if half of editors are saying (or implying) that it is a waste of time. Selfstudier (talk) 14:00, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

There's no rush, I think we should take some more time to iterate. @BilledMammal, afaics this is the first time that the ToU and UCC are mentioned in this thread. I guess I thought that all English Wikipedia users already bound by these policies, is this not true?spintheer (talk) 14:13, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

They were mentioned above by Levivich.

There has been some debate regarding whether the UCoC applies absent an enabling act, but the main point of mentioning it here would be to make it clear that there are still some limits. BilledMammal (talk) 04:15, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

WP:IAR and common sense should apply in this case. Any attempts to make a hard-line rule will result in immense suffering. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 11:42, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the RfC will be stronger if it includes fewer options. If necessary, some straw polling here might help pick out the strongest candidates. I would also urge that a status quo option be included. If it isn't, editors are likely to add it anyway. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:36, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Good point, thank you. I forgot to add, for the last RfC, C is my summary of the status quo (but not always the enforced one, being the reason for D). FortunateSons (talk) 15:27, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

No, if you're actually doing this, you don't get to decide a new wording for the status quo. The option should be "nothing changes." Again, there's no actual consensus that a rule isn't being enforced. The ANI did not find quorum that there was a problem, and neither has this discussion. Parabolist (talk) 22:26, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

That’s not a new wording, it’s just a summary using changed grammar of the words. I’m genuinely open to a better one that does not necessitate looking at the page.

Regarding outcome, we will see. FortunateSons (talk) 23:04, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

The better one is "No change." Why do we need a "summary using changed grammar" for an option that means there's no problem here, in rules or in enforcement (Which is a common refrain here, and was at the ANI). What exactly is the problem this is seeking to solve? What is the impetus that something needs to change? Even if I take your position, it seems like actually the rules worked, and an admin requested that the quotes be removed. This is without even getting into how we would begin to define a 'call for violence', or whatever the hell 'broadly legal' means. Parabolist (talk) 23:15, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

It worked on outcome, but “a cooperative editor” and “an admin who happened to notice and care” shouldn’t be a policy basis.

The goal of a phrasing was to include to often missed footnote and allow people to have context on which way the votes change the policy (stricter or less strict), but I see how it led to confusion and apologise.

The problem is as described above, a vaguely phrased and inconsistently applied policy about a significant topic. I can’t change the application, but I can try to improve the former with the goal of more cooperative work and less on- and off-wiki issues. FortunateSons (talk) 23:24, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Okay, but then you should be ready to answer simple questions like "What is a call/justification/excuse for violence?" Is supporting historical revolutions a call for violence? Active ones? Is statements of support for governments engaged in active conflicts a call for violence? What about countries engaged in extrajudicial killing? What is the difference between a justification or excuse? You use the phrase "legal" in your RFC: whose laws? Why them? There is a reason that our rules are simple and broad: this sort of needless specificity creates far more problems than it solves. Your solution to vaguely phrased policy is to add more vague phrases. Parabolist (talk) 23:46, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I understand your point. For reasons of length, I’m afraid I can’t answer them all, but the general answer of interpretation is (inspired by German civil law) “whatever an objective person utilising good faith would perceive it as, being mindful of the context”. You can’t catch every edge case regarding , but if it was a one-word sentence, it would be “not ok if someone living could reasonably feel like such a justification includes them.”

Legal was referring to “general legal principles” or “patterns”, like basic rights to self defence and autonomy, but does not refer to specific disputed cases (like stand your ground laws).

Vague group/government support (at least IMO, but some may disagree) is generally acceptable unless it breaks another rule, such as being disruptive to the project (supporting Nazi Germany).

That being said, I don’t think that my version is perfect, but doesn’t the same problem exist with the current policy? How would you make a clear distinction between condoning, excusing, trivialising and normalising? (Taken from Wikipedia:UPNOT) FortunateSons (talk) 00:09, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't. Thats my point, every part of your proposal requires so much clarification that it becomes unusable. Similarly, I didn't want you to answer all of those questions, but demonstrate that these are all very obvious questions that arise from your wording, without clear answers. I'm completely lost on how you feel "general legal principles" are going to apply to a rule that seemingly is mostly directed at statements involving state actors and groups that those actors consider illegal. You're alreading writing clarifying sentences to add, when we solve this simply with one sentence currently. At this rate we'll be adding several paragraph to the policy, all because of an ANI thread there was no consensus that a rules problem existed. Parabolist (talk) 00:31, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

It’s technically solved with two sentences for now, but I understand your point. The issue is that the current version is either extremely vague or simply not applied in the way it was intended to, neither of which is great.

The goal of legal principles was to catch statements that are violence but only in a very technical way, as to not make the rule overly intrusive. FortunateSons (talk) 07:59, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Do you see option C as retaining the status quo entirely, or replacing it with your summary? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:02, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Retaining it as is, but it is split in two due to the footnote, so I saw no better way of putting it into a 'votable' option with more clarification than "status quo". If there is an obvious way to do it which I missed, I apologise for screwing it up :) FortunateSons (talk) 14:04, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I think it'd be worth it to clarify, maybe something like "status quo: ban content that advocates, encourages, or condones acts of violence (generally including excusing, trivializing, or normalizing these issues as tolerable or of little importance)" Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:11, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Thats the better one I have been looking for, thank you. If we use my RfC (or one inspired by it), this should replace C. FortunateSons (talk) 14:15, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

• If I was wiki-dictator-for-life I would abolish all political/social userboxen as I don't think we are supposed to be here to share our opinions on these matters, but that ship clearly sailed a looooooong time ago. So, given that this is the situation we are in, I don't think it is a good use of anyone's time to try and define super exact rules for what is allowed and what is not. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 23:40, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
• I am getting really tired of “structured RFCs” that offer us pre-set options to !vote on. Just ask the basic question: What limits (if any) should we place on the use of userpages to make political/social statements? Blueboar (talk) 00:17, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

  I have made such RFCs in the past, and I believe they have their place, but only with long-term issues that previous, less structured discussions have failed to resolve. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 06:11, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Just slap a big tag at the top of every user page stating "material on this page reflects the user's views and is not necessarily indicative of any position of Wikipedia as a whole." --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:27, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Heck, this should probably be coded in so that it automatically appears without any work on any particular page. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:28, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

This is going in the wrong direction. I'm not concerned about deciding which opinions or types of speech are or are not morally acceptable. I'm concerned about the WP:SOAPBOX and WP:NOTBLOG issues that come from acting like userpages are social media pages where you make political statements. Even more importantly, I'm concerned about what it communicates to potential new editors when we claim to be a neutral, welcoming encyclopedia and then plaster it with contentious and polemical statements. And after reading this discussion, I'm now also concerned with the fact that many editors seem to feel entitled to use Wikipedia to promote their beliefs—especially since many of these editors are WP:SPAs in contentious topics who anyone with eyes can see are WP:CPUSHers by looking at their user pages, contributions, and participation in discussions. And as far as I'm concerned, the attitude of "everyone has strong opinions they insert when they edit" is telling on oneself. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 00:54, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

the attitude of "everyone has strong opinions they insert when they edit" is telling on oneself Agreed; everyone has strong opinions on some topic, and sometimes they edit articles related to that topic - but they should try to prevent those opinion’s influencing their editing. Of course, they won’t always succeed - I doubt I do - but they should try, and I’m concerned that were normalising the notion that they shouldn’t, as it results in things such as editors arguing, unapologetically, for different standards to be applied to claims in line with their POV than for claims against their POV.

With that said, I do see a benefit of letting people put these views on their talk page - it warns editors to watch out for POV-pushing, and it’s evidence at ANI if POV-pushing does occur. BilledMammal (talk) 04:08, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Let users express extreme opinions on their talk pages, and these extreme opinions become public information which can be used against them in all on-wiki discussions. Don't sanction a user for expressing them, but do use the expressed opinion as evidence if there are other potential grounds for sanctioning. Animal lover |666| 07:32, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Nail on the head right here IMHO. If your user page looks like this (see image), you've crossed a line.

Is this editor here to build an encyclopedia?

Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 10:00, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Thinking about it further, I think the following options may be better:

1. Editors may express support for any position that does not violate the Terms of Use or the Universal Code of Conduct
2. Editors may not express support for any social or political position unrelated to Wikipedia
3. Status quo

My concern with the previous version of #2 is that it could forbid statements such as "I like dogs" - arguably a WP:NOTSOCIAL violation, but not something we should really be concerned about editors saying. BilledMammal (talk) 04:36, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

All you need is number 1, which is equal to number 3. That you want number 2 is neither here nor there. Selfstudier (talk) 13:39, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Based on the current letter of the policy, 3 is quite a lot more restrictive than 1 FortunateSons (talk) 13:42, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

The status quo must include 1 by default, thems the rules (whether or not enforced). Selfstudier (talk) 13:54, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, that was poorly phrased: 3 includes 1, but goes beyond it. FortunateSons (talk) 13:58, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

• How are beliefs about self defense considered illegal? At least where I live, if someone comes up to my door acting all crazy and violent, I'm perfectly within my rights to grab a rock or stick or watering can to convince them to go away. GMG^talk 13:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

  It isn't illegal, which was the point I was going for. Self defence is an example of violence (in the broad sense of the word) considered legal almost everywhere, so "I own a gun for the defence of me and my loved ones" should not be considered violence even within the scope of a highly restrictive ban on conduct endorsing violence. FortunateSons (talk) 14:01, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

• In general, I don't believe that one user page you found offensive is a crisis that warrants an ANI thread, a VP thread, and what appears to be an overcomplicated RfC. Beside the option to just go do something else other than police user's talk pages, if you want to open an ANI, it seems like it worked out. So policy seems to be chugging along. GMG^talk 15:58, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
• To me, it comes down to this: Is a Wikipedia Userpage the right VENUE for editors to express their opinions on social/cultural/political issues? If so, why? And if not, why not? Blueboar (talk) 13:17, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

  Personally I don’t really care what happens with this discussion so long as the policy is consistently applied, and not, as historically been the case here and literally everywhere else in the world, used as a cudgel against views that some majority, here or some ANI thread, opposes. But, for the sake of argument, I do actually think that there is a benefit to allowing for the expression of personal views, as it helps demonstrate that the editor base is not a monolith, that there are dissenting views allowed on pretty much any topic, that we as a project take seriously the idea that our aim is not to determine what is "neutral" and then indoctrinate John Q Googler but rather we aim to include all significant views. Showing that this is not just a place where the dominant view, American and European centric, cismale, etc., is accepted is useful by itself. nableezy - 14:42, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Not to get all political on main, but the world in which we live (i.e. the one where we have airplanes and penicillin and computers with Internet connections) exists due to great amounts of violence -- not only over the course of human history, but as a perpetual undergirding force that maintains social order on an everyday basis. Certainly, everybody who locks their bike to a streetpole to go in the store, keeps their money in the bank, trusts their employer to pay them at the end of the week, et cetera supports some amount of violence under some circumstances -- why else would you feel comfortable dropping your kids off at school without a bulletproof vest and a 9mm? Every once in a while, some scumbag goes to a public place and starts trying to murder dozens of people -- this is, oftentimes, stopped by doing a quite violent act (like shooting them). Likewise, a few decades ago, some scumbag became the dictator of Germany and started murdering millions of people, and doing various other awful things, which were mostly stopped through the use of truly overwhelming amounts of violence, which we refer to as "World War 2".
"But JPxG", you may say, "this is stupid disingenuous concern trolling because everybody knows those things were done to prevent greater evils and so they weren't really violence". Well, no: almost certainly the majority of violent acts throughout history have been done for the sake of achieving some greater good in the eyes of those who undertook them. Of course, I don't mean to posit some sort of completely rudderless braindead moral nihilism where nobody can tell the difference between good and bad things. Some violence is evil, some violence is tragically necessary, some violence achieves better results than the counterfactual scenario where it isn't employed but is nonetheless avoidable, some violence is implicit, et cetera.
But Wikipedia editors are not equipped to sit down and argue on a talk page and decide with objective certainty which actions are morally justified and which are not -- if we could do that we would have essentially solved moral philosophy and could probably bring about world peace in a matter of weeks by making really smart posts about it online. I don't think we can do this. At least not in weeks -- maybe if we are around for a couple millennia.
The point of this is that we can sit around and come up with all kinds of seemingly-distinct categories of statements, like "glorifying" or "calling for" or "endorsing" or "defending" or "minimizing" or "justifying" -- but they are not actually distinct categories in themselves, and they're fundamentally downstream of the actual moral considerations in play, which we are unable to determine objectively. Determining which of them any given speech act falls into is so difficult and situationally dependent that it's hard to see any benefit whatsoever from larping that we're employing some kind of objective standard. I think the best strategy is to just tell people not to be stupid and do our best to not be stupid, and know it when we see it. jp×g🗯️ 01:42, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

To the best of my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong), your argument is "we can't create a philosophically sound framework to rigorously ensure that certain types of speech are limited, so therefore we should not make any attempt and instead defer to people's general judgement of what is stupid." I agree with the premise, but disagree with the conclusion. AFAICT, we can't make a philosophically sound framework to rigorously define anything of practical use. This doesn't stop us from making real-world laws and Wikipedia rules, because using natural language to specify what is and isn't allowed still empirically works better than leaving it at "don't be stupid". This is why we have other Wikipedia rules that limit speech, like rules against hateful statement.

The question is will adding a rule that says e.g. "Directly endorsing, promoting, or calling for physical violence is not allowed" be a net benefit or liability for the development of this project. As discussed above, I personally think that allowing this sort of speech can lead to very problematic and sticky situations that will overall hurt the project. spintheer (talk) 04:53, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, what WP:USERPAGE says now, and has said for the last decade, is this:

Advocacy or support of grossly improper behaviors with no project benefit

Statements or pages that seem to advocate, encourage, or condone these behaviors: vandalism, copyright violation, edit warring, harassment, privacy breach, defamation, and acts of violence. ("Acts of violence" includes all forms of violence but does not include mere statements of support for controversial groups or regimes that some may interpret as an encouragement of violence.)

These may be removed, redacted or collapsed by any user to avoid the appearance of acceptability for Wikipedia, and existing speedy deletion criteria may apply. To preserve traditional leeway over userspace, other kinds of material should be handled as described below unless otherwise agreed by consensus.

I spent a little bit trying to date when this showed up; it wasn't there in 2004. By January 2007 the page mentioned "polemical statements", by August 2007 it said this; by 2009 "don't be a dick about it" had changed to "don't be inconsiderate"; by June 2010 it had the "statements of violence" section; and by 2014 it had gotten to what's quoted above.

I think that, if anything, this is about as detailed as it could possibly be without tripping over its own shoelaces (which it is perilously close to doing). Adding stuff to this would make it more complicated. What's a "supporting a controversial group" and what's "condoning of violence"? We just have to figure it out case-by-case. I don't think there is any kind of policy framework that allows us to consistently determine in advance whether the community considers it acceptable to support or oppose the Democratic National Convention, the PKK, the IDF, the Proud Boys, Hezbollah, the AFL-CIO, Redneck Revolt, the Wehrmacht, the Huffington Post blogroll, the Ku Klux Klan, the IWW, 8chan, the Black Panthers, the Azov Brigade, Freemasons, the United Daughters of the Confederacy, and Hamas. We just have to kind of figure it out as we go. jp×g🗯️ 01:04, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

There are also applicable policies. WP:OWN says that userspace is still part of Wikipedia and must serve its primary purposes. WP:NOT has both WP:SOAP and WP:NOTBLOG, which disallow the use of any page—including userpages—for political advocacy or as a personal web page, respectively. There's a lot of hand wringing in this discussion about whether OWN or NOT should be ignored if the subject is contentious, but that's where they should apply the most. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:34, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

References

Wikidata Items shown on Wikipedia?

I have come across a template, {{Public art header}}, that has among its far-too-many columns a way to list the Wikidata Item identifier (the number beginning with Q) for all the listed public art installations. It seems to me to be unique; I don't think I have seen a Wikidata Item displayed anywhere else on Wikipedia. Also, I don't think that readers will understand these Q-numbers, and clicking on them doesn't lead to some sort of trove of valuable information. Can this be fixed? Abductive (reasoning) 10:02, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Is there a reason you've asked this question here rather than at Template talk:Public art row (where the header template talk page redirects), Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Visual arts or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Visual arts/Public art? It seems that editors familiar with the template are far more likely to see your query there. Thryduulf (talk) 11:24, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I've left notifications at the first and last of those locations, so hopefully someone with relevant knowledge will see your query. I'm still not sure what the connection to policy is though. Thryduulf (talk) 11:27, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm curious if there is a policy on display of Wikidata item identifiers in Wikipedia mainspace? Abductive (reasoning) 14:29, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Wikidata#Appropriate usage in articles: 2018 RFC decided "Wikidata should not be linked to within the body of the article except in the manner of hidden comment(s) as to mentioning the Q-number." Not the clearest text, but the intention of the RfC was to disallow the display / link to Wikidata Q numbers in body of articles (linking in templates like taxonbox is a grey area). It's about as meaningful as displaying the Wikipedia page ID somewhere (yes, Wikipedia articles have a page ID, e.g. this very page has ID 986140). Fram (talk) 14:50, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:WIKIDATA (an information page, not a policy or guideline) there appears to be a consensus (from 2018) that "Wikidata should not be linked to within the body of the article except in the manner of hidden comment(s) as to mentioning the Q-number." the subsequent mentioned February 2023 RFC found no consensus to change the status quo, but it focused almost exclusively on pulling data from Wikidata in lists rather than links to Wikidata, so it appears the 2018 consensus is the most recent relevant one.

That would seem to suggest that such links should not be displayed, but (a) the consensus is old, and (b) consensuses against using Wikidata have always been weaker regarding tables than prose so I don't think there is any justification for making changes without prior discussion.

As for my opinions on the desirability of inclusion, I'm open-minded about the value of links to the Wikidata item (which sometimes contains additional structured data not in the article, especially for works that don't have a standalone article) but I don't think the QID number is the optimal way to present such a link (although I can't immediately think of anything better). Thryduulf (talk) 14:58, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

The consensus is not old because sensible editors are nearly universally still following it—even if they don't know it exists. What fraction of the 6.8 million articles display a Q-number? The few uses are cruft and need to be removed forthwith. Abductive (reasoning) 15:32, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

That's not how consensus works. The consensus is old, because it was arrived at a long time ago. The age of the consensus is unrelated to whether it is still current - that can only be confirmed through discussion. It could be that few articles display Q-numbers because there is a consensus that Q-numbers should not be articles, or it could be that there is a consensus that Q-numbers should only be displayed in particular circumstances (which happen to be uncommon). Both options are consistent with the facts as presented so far. Rather than making hyperbolic assertions and demands it would be better to first have a calm and rational discussion about whether anything has changed in the last six years and see whether consensus still holds or something more nuanced is now appropriate. However, you seem to have actively avoided seeking the views of anyone who might be able to present an explanation for and/or argument in favour of Q-number inclusion in the template I'm not sure that you are actually interested in consensus.

To be clear I'm not arguing for or against inline links to Wikidata in tables, I'm arguing against adding or removing such links before the matter has been discussed civilly and with an open mind. Thryduulf (talk) 16:06, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

My take is that the only reason that these Q-numbers have survived is because they are protected by being in a template. (And if February 2023 is old....) Please tell me the process that can enforce or reinvigorate the current/allegedly old consensus for another year at least. Abductive (reasoning) 20:15, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I don’t mind confirming the consensus. I will say what I said last time we discussed it… I think the links to Wikidata have no real benefit to Wikipedia. Q-numbers are incomprehensible to those not already familiar with Wikidata, and the structure of the Wikidata pages if you click on the Q-link is even more confusing. Wikipedia uses text to convey information… Wikidata does not. This results in incompatibility. Blueboar (talk) 20:25, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

And if February 2023 is old.... the February 2023 discussion did not discuss in any depth any of templates, tables or links (it was almost entirely concerned with pulling information into running text and infoboxes). No discussion, no matter how old or new, is relevant to matters not featured in that discussion. Thryduulf (talk) 20:58, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Ok… then let’s continue to discuss and form a NEW consensus on whether these links are appropriate or not. Blueboar (talk) 21:19, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

My take is that the only reason that these Q-numbers have survived is because they are protected by being in a template is definitely true in a sense - I run an AWB run to enforce the 2018 consensus every month, but that just looks for articles that have a link to Wikidata either directly or through {{Wikidata entity link}}. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 00:44, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't know if this is germane but wanted to mention that we do have "WD" as an option for the interlanguage links template.

sample usage:

"He was the founder of Film History: An International Journal "

source:

He was the founder of {{ill|Film History: An International Journal|wd=Q15751437|short=yes|italic=yes}}

I personally would be bummed if this option went away. (But also the Q number proper is not visible inline so maybe policy doesn't apply?) jengod (talk) 06:06, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree that links like this may be good. No Q number should display on any article, but red-links to pages, along with a WikiData page link, are useful for some readers to get a better understanding of the red-linked topic. This is just like links to other language Wikipedias; a link to a Hebrew article won't benifit most readers, but the few it does benifit along with a red link will gain a lot. Animal lover |666| 07:40, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Question for those who think Wikidata is useful

• HOW?

This isn’t meant as a snarky question… Perhaps it is because I am very text oriented… but I honestly do not even fully understand the purpose of Wikidata. I know Wikidata compiles some sort of metadata about things, but what is it compiling and why?

When I look at a Wikidata page, I don’t understand what I am looking at… much less how I could use it. So hopefully someone can explain it to me… what information does it compile and how is a reader or editor of Wikipedia use that information? Walk me through an example. Blueboar (talk) 11:50, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

My impression is it is like a catalogue for data on subjects. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:20, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I think that connecting different articles, pictures etc on the same topic across the various wikis is useful. Wikidata doesn't only compile metadata it also creates metadata, the most important thing it does is assign a Wikidata number to every thing in the known wiki universe. If someone in Russia uploads a picture of a Forest-steppe marmot (Wikidata number Q12841876) to ruwiki Wikidata makes that image findable by someone from enwiki who doesn't speak Russian. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:37, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

No, that's Commons, or should be! I spend a lot of time looking for and at images, but would never use Wikidata, which has tiny numbers, poorly categorized. Johnbod (talk) 17:04, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Commons doesn't connect pages, but it could fill that role for imagery alone. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:06, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

It does (Wikidata itself has no pics of your marmots). Before Wikidata we had a generally effective system for connecting articles in different languages. Johnbod (talk) 17:13, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Commons does not host article unless I am mistaken. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:39, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

My impression is that the amount of energy and editor effort that goes into putting data into Wikidata is out of all proportion to the amount of data that is extracted from Wikidata. We have dug an enormous deep well, provided with a plastic cup and piece of string for extraction. Johnbod (talk) 17:04, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

The English Wikipedia extracts only a tiny amount of data from Wikidata (because we have policies against doing more), but other projects use more. The same is true of Commons: an awful lot more effort gets put into adding and maintaining (categorising, etc) images on Commons than the English Wikipedia gets out of it. Thryduulf (talk) 17:15, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think the issue is the extraction tools, which can be enhanced as desired, but concerns about the ensuring the quality of the water. (The analogy breaks down a bit here, since the community is putting the water into the well; a water tower might be a somewhat better analogy.) isaacl (talk) 18:03, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

@Blueboar Wikidata is essentially a collection of factual statements about a subject in a highly structured format similar to infoboxes. In theory a Wikidata entry and a Wikipedia article should convey the same information such that you can construct one from the other (in practice it's not quite the same, but when both are high quality its close).

Taking a random example Statue of George Canning, Parliament Square and d:Q21546419

• Wikipedia: The statue of George Canning in Parliament Square, Westminster, London, is an 1832 work by Sir Richard Westmacott. The 3.56 metres (11.7 ft) bronze sculpture depicts George Canning (British Prime Minister during 1827)...The statue stands on a 4.4 metres (14 ft) granite plinth which bears the inscription "GEORGE CANNING".
• Wikidata: Instance of: Statue. Location: Westminster. Located on street: Parliament Square. Located in the administrative territorial entity: City of Westminster. Inception: 1832. Creator: Richard Westmacott. Height: 3.56±0.01 metre (applies to part: statue), 4.4±0.01 metre (applies to part: plinth). Made from material: Bronze (applies to part: statue), Granite (applies to part: plinth). Inscription: GEORGE CANNING (language: English; location: Plinth).

Thryduulf (talk) 17:12, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

That's a stub article, & doesn't answer the question: what's the point? Johnbod (talk) 17:16, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

There isn't much of one. The people who boost Wikidata, and the people interested in maintaining and building a verifiable, high-quality encyclopedia, don't seem to have a ton of overlap. Most of the "pros" of Wikidata aren't pros for us (you mean we can autofill infobox fields with stuff that has less quality control and no referencing? Oh boy!) and are more aimed at people who harvest Wikipedia for data. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 17:26, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Without looking at the statistics (meaning I might be wrong) a majority of Wikidata administrators who list English as their mothertongue are also English Wikipedia administrators. Ymblanter (talk) 18:08, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikidata is a structured database of facts with great potential. Unfortunately, as you point out above, this well comes with a plastic cup, rather than the more sophisticated plumbing required for that data to flow freely and be tapped productively. It may turn out to be a dead end but could become a core element of the future of knowledge. For example, rather than having AI mine the net and plagiarise whatever plausible junk it found in someone's blog, one might build a system which can respond to natural-language questions with answers as accurate as Wikidata's content. Certes (talk) 17:39, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Exactly, using Wikipedia it would be extremely hard work (if not impossible) to find the answer to something like: "What is the oldest bronze statue in London over 3 metres tall?" But that's trivial on Wikidata (assuming the data has been added). Thryduulf (talk) 17:43, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

It being a stub-article is irrelevant. The point is to collate a repository of factual information in a structured format, which is similar to but not the same as Wikipedia's goal to collate a repository of encyclopaedic information in prose (and list) format. The information is mostly the same (although Wikipedia's inclusion criteria are more restrictive), it's just presented very differently. Some people find it extremely useful to have the information in structured format, that other people don't understand why they find it useful is irrelevant. Thryduulf (talk) 17:39, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Structured_Data_Across_Wikimedia Well intentioned at least. Selfstudier (talk) 17:43, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you all for at least trying to explain. I get that WD is a compilation of “structured data” … But I suppose I am still confused as to why we are structuring that data in the first place (because we can?)… then I ask: why do we structure it the incomprehensible way we do. To me it looks like gobbledegook. It certainly isn’t the sort of thing “Anyone can edit” (because I certainly couldn’t). Anyway… thanks again for your patience with me. Blueboar (talk) 19:37, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Structured data has lots of advantages for situations like machine parsing, assisted translation, etc. The way we structure it is very logical and extremely far from gobbledegook - at least to me (and probably more so to people like computer programmers). The barrier to contributing is slightly higher than Wikipedia, but it is a project anyone can edit. Thryduulf (talk) 20:17, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Ah… so the primary purpose is to aid machines? (Not meant as snark). Blueboar (talk) 20:47, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Any automated process can benefit. That includes the most used example at present: enabling every language Wikipedia to have the same set of cross-language Wikipedia links for a given article. If the issue of ensuring the data was verified and kept stable according the the standards of all language Wikipedia sites, then pulling more data automatically through, say, templates could be done. Birthdates could be easily synched, citations could be generated automatically, and so forth. The verification and stability issue remains a key challenge, though, and Wikidata's current user interface is likely an impediment for expanding its user base to a more general population. isaacl (talk) 21:15, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

It's been a while since I entered any data into Wikidata, but when I did, I found it took a considerable amount of time to enter in all the data items to fully cover every property of the source of the data. I appreciate that's the way it goes when every piece of data is an item in its own right with its own properties. It would help a lot, though, if an interface could be devised to automate as much of the work as possible: perhaps something that could traverse down the tree, match up property values to corresponding existing data items as much as possible, show placeholders for new items that need to be created, and present the tree for editing. (Maybe there's been enhancements already that speed up the process?) isaacl (talk) 21:25, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is legible by humans. Wikidata is legible by computers. Its potential is for answering questions like the example above : "What is the oldest bronze statue in London over 3 metres tall?". It just needs an intuitive interface, and protection from the vandalism which will inevitably occur once non-specialists begin to hear of it. Certes (talk) 21:39, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikidata is serves as a central repository for all Wikimedia projects. It connects the same topic across languages much easier, the identifiers can be used to build redlists (such as WP:WikiProject Women in Red/Redlist index) quite intuitively using SPARQL, and through WP:Authority control we can connect between the Wikidata entry and outside repositories such as VIAF and national library catalogs and WorldCat (see the Authority control article for why this is of supreme importance to us). You can probably find more info on their help pages. Curbon7 (talk) 20:15, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

A central repository of what? Blueboar (talk) 20:48, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Data. Curbon7 (talk) 20:54, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

What data? All data? Specific data? Data for the sake of collecting data? Blueboar (talk) 21:08, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

To explain fully is to explain the entire field of Library and information science, so for our purposes see Thryduulf's Canning example above: Instance of: Statue. Location: Westminster. Located on street: Parliament Square. Located in the administrative territorial entity: City of Westminster. Inception: 1832. Creator: Richard Westmacott. Height: 3.56±0.01 metre (applies to part: statue), 4.4±0.01 metre (applies to part: plinth). Made from material: Bronze (applies to part: statue), Granite (applies to part: plinth). Inscription: GEORGE CANNING (language: English; location: Plinth) is all data. Using SPARQL queries, you can use this to find, for example, all listed instances of statues incepted in 1832 or statues by Richard Westmacott in Westminster or whatever other query is desired. This is one of the purposes of Wikidata, but not the only one, as I've explained above. Curbon7 (talk) 21:27, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Crotos is one of the best applications built from Wikidata in my opinion; it's a search engine for artworks, and the results for individual artists can be browsed in chronological order. These are the results for Richard Westmacott. My hope is that the use of the template {{Public art row}} on pages like (as it happens) Richard Westmacott could be used to further populate Wikidata, by generating Wikidata data items based on instances of the template on the page. In that scenario the wikidata parameter in the template would be useful for indicating which items in the list already have Wikidata items and which don't yet. That wouldn't be a reason to display the Wikidata ID on the page, though; it would only need to be in the code. @14GTR, what do you think of this? Ham II (talk) 05:20, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for pinging me to this Ham II & apologies for the delay in replying - busy times. I have not come across Crotos before and would need to see more of it before commenting on it. I would say that including the Wikidata number beside individual items in a table of artworks or monuments simply provides a link to further sources of information on that specific item, including the various art databases, national archives and major libraries with relevant entries. To me, including the Wikidata number in such tables performs the same, or a similar, service that the Authority Control template provides at the bottom of a single-subject page. The only substantial difference, I can see is that an AC template, and others such as Art UK bio template, take their data from the Wikidata page while the Q number takes the reader to the Wikidata page. I've yet to see a table or chart with multiple Authority Control templates in it, so presumably that's why the Wikidata option is included in the table header. Again, thanks for the ping.14GTR (talk) 13:52, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

I imagine big tech companies find it useful as an input for training their AIs. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 20:42, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

This applies much more to Wikipedia than to Wikidata, because LLMs take input in the form of long text documents rather than abstract representations of propositions. MartinPoulter (talk) 08:32, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

@Blueboar You've already received a number of good answers, but here's my perspective. Wikidata has a large number of possible uses, not only for other WMF projects, but also for third parties. For Wikipedias, beyond the basic task of maintaining inter-wiki links, Wikidata generally has the information required to fill in most of an infobox: That is how it is used on most projects, and the English Wikipedia is an outlier in underusing this.

@Johnbod "Before Wikidata we had a generally effective system for connecting articles in different languages" The old system was that every project maintained their own list of equivalent articles. This resulted in a lot of duplicated effort and inconsistency between projects, and generally poor results for small projects, but it more-or-less worked out for larger projects. Bovlb (talk) 18:11, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

What are you talking about? The old system (which can still be seen in the French, Italian & other wps) was nothing to do with projects. Each article had a list of interwiki links off to the side, which was manually maintained, with no doubt bots doing the exact matches. Rather more trouble to maintain, but generally pretty effective. Johnbod (talk) 00:00, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

One of us is confused. All Wikipedias have been using Wikidata for the interwiki links for some time. The "list off to the side" is now maintained in Wikidata (largely manually). There is no difference in the way ENWP, FRWP, and ITWP do this.

In the old days, interwiki links were stored within the article on each project. There was some bot support for copying this from project to project, but that process had limitations. Bovlb (talk) 00:54, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

@David Fuchs "you mean we can autofill infobox fields with stuff that has less quality control and no referencing" Every project struggles with quality control and referencing, and Wikidata is no exception. The benefit of storing this information centrally for all projects is that the effort to ensure quality control and add references can be shared across all WMF projects. Again, this is an area where larger projects get the smaller benefit but have an opportunity to contribute more to smaller projects. If larger projects choose to boycott Wikidata because of (perceived) quality problems, then this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Bovlb (talk) 18:11, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikidata is a wonderful idea in theory, particularly for Wikipedias in less widely known languages than English. For us at English Wikipedia there are two drawbacks - as the largest Wikipedia most of the traffic goes in the direction Wikipedia->Wikidata rather than the reverse, and (from anecdotal evidence) they do not seem to apply policies and guidelines as strictly as we do. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:31, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

"they do not seem to apply policies and guidelines as strictly as we do" I'd be interested to hear more about this. Wikidata has its own policies and guidelines that differ from other projects. Inasmuch as it is a shared resource between all other WMF projects, it is broadly required to permit anything needed to support any client project. For example, this means that it cannot impose general restrictions on IP users or be aggressive about inappropriate usernames. Bovlb (talk) 18:18, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I didn't mean policies about whether an editor chooses to register and under what user name, but about sourcing. As I say my evidence is anecdotal, and it is from the early days of Wikidata, but I understand that the reason Wikidata is not used more widely on the English Wikipedia is because much of the content is not reliably sourced. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:27, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

There is a lot of information on Wikidata that is not sourced, and much more that is sourced to a Wikipedia (which may or may not itself be reliably sourced). Just like on Wikipedia lack of sourcing doesn't mean it's necessarily wrong of course. It is far easier to tell what information on Wikidata is and isn't sourced than it is on Wikipedia, as every statement has (or doesn't have) an associated source where here a source at the end of a paragraph my back up all or only some of the claims made within it. This does mean that it's easier to generate sourced Wikipedia content from Wikidata than vice versa.

Obviously "source" and "reliable source" are not necessarily the same thing, but that's no different to sourcing here - it can only be assessed in terms of the specific claim and context. However the 1:1 link between claim and source means that that assessment can be easier (e.g. there is much less room for argument about whether a non-MEDRS source is being used to support a biomedical claim). Thryduulf (talk) 19:46, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

In the early days of Wikidata, there was a much weaker emphasis on sources than there is now. This mirrors the development of Wikipedia. Just as with Wikipedia, they don't require a reference for every statement, just those that are challenged. Certain properties are inherently likely to be challenged, so should generally be referenced, and there is automated detection of such problems. References are also important for establishing notability on Wikidata. Many statements are marked as being imported from Wikipedia, which is more of a tracking annotation than a true reference.

As I said above, Wikidata definitely struggles with quality issues and a lack of references. I believe that a greater use of Wikidata by large projects like the English Wikipedia would improve both of these, not only through many eyes seeing defects and many hands fixing them, but also because it would lead to the development of better tools.

Wikidata was created to support and improve client projects like the English Wikipedia. If it's not serving those needs, please help it to do better. Bovlb (talk) 21:19, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

• Best I can tell, Wikidata was an attempt to crowdsource a world model to be used for development/implementation of "AI" agents; save cost and time for large corporations working AI. That was before transformers happened. Old "AI"s are probably still using it. Usedtobecool ☎️ 05:56, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

  That's a weird bundle of misconceptions. The way Linked data and the Semantic web work is different, arguably opposite, to what transformers do. That's why there's interest in getting them to work together. Also, why focus on "large corporations" rather than the opportunities for programmers to create apps and visualisations in a day that used to take months? MartinPoulter (talk) 08:30, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

  That, or you just misunderstood what I was saying. My point was, post-transformers, AI is reading Wikipedia, and all other natural-language sources directly. I wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong since I'm mainly going by our own articles, but they say Google, among others, funded Wikidata and once it was up and running, closed its own project for a similar base. Google knowledge graph must be using Wikidata, since it closed freebase and exported it to Wikidata. Amazon and Apple also use it for their virtual assistants. Sure, anyone could use it; I mentioned large corporations because they're the ones using it for anything worth mentioning per our articles. — Usedtobecool ☎️ 07:35, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

• As the OP likes the way that Wikipedia presents data, they should just read its article Wikidata which provides plenty of information about that project and its uses. One of its sources is a systematic review of the scholarly literature about the project. Andrew🐉(talk) 20:26, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
• Thanks to all for the replies. FYI, I actually did read the Wikidata article before I posted my questions. I found the explanations here in this thread more informative than the article (perhaps there was less “jargon” being used here?) Anyway… while I am still baffled by a lot at WD (and could not edit or contribute to it at all) you have all helped me to at least better understand why it was created in the first place… so thanks again. Blueboar (talk) 21:07, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Bus routes and notability

Is there a notability guideline for transport routes? I have spotted a number of recent creations in Category:Brighton & Hove bus routes and they don't look particularly notable to me, but didn't want to jump the gun and nom them for deletion withut checking first. --woodensuperman 09:49, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I would think GNG and common sense covers it… if we have reliable sources that discuss the route in reasonable depth, the route is notable enough for a stand alone article. If not, see if there are sources covering the entire system… write about the system (and mention the individual routes in that). Blueboar (talk) 11:21, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, all seems pretty WP:Run-of-the-mill to me, will nom. --woodensuperman 11:28, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

To answer the original question, Category:Wikipedia notability guidelines has all the subject-specific notability guidelines. I don't see one for transport routes. RoySmith (talk) 22:01, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

WP:NOTDIRECTORY is also salient here. Remsense诉 23:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I would note that while train and highway routes tend to be notable, this is becuase they are fixed elements. Bus routes, and similarly ferry and airplane routes, I think require a much higher level to demonstrate them to be notable, since these can be adjusted on the fly. — Masem (t) 22:06, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

As noted by others it's all about sourcing. Precent is that some bus routes are notable, but they are few and far between and are almost exclusively ones with a long history (typically decades, but exceptions are possible). Lists of bus routes on a given system can go either way depending on who shows up to the AfD. Summaries of a route network, especially in historical context, are encyclopaedic in my book but there isn't much precedent that I know of. Where an individual route is mentioned in a list or similar article, a redirect is appropriate, where it isn't it normally isn't.

When writing about transport services and networks it's always advisable to start with the broadest article (e.g. transport in country) then gradually work your way down (e.g. write "transport in region" before "transport in city" before "buses in city" before "list of bus routes in city" before "bus route in city") Thryduulf (talk) 23:27, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Not always. Suppose you were trying to write the article on Transport in London from scratch and none of the child articles existed. The task would be enormously difficult, and getting the article through GA or FA more so, with people constantly asking for or adding more material. Which is why so many top level articles are in such poor shape. Whereas if the child articles were there first, you could construct the parent from the leads of the children like History of transport in London, London Underground, Docklands Light Railway, Buses in London, Cycling in London etc where there is already consensus on what goes in a summary. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:33, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Copy paste plagiarism from out of copyright materials.

Hi, I was just wondering what the correct template is for signalling articles which have copypasted text from an out of copyright source. This article is a word for word copy from this source, and I'm pretty sure that's not ok, so we must have a template. Boynamedsue (talk) 16:45, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

It is ok, since the source is in the public domain and the text is properly attributed. There are many templates used to attribute the sources being copied, and that article uses one of them (Template:DNB). Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:49, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

In the early days, it was considered a good thing to copy articles from the 1911 Encyclopedia Brittanica to fill in the gaps. Donald Albury 17:02, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Many people (not the OP) don't seem to understand the difference between copyright violation and plagiarism. Copyright violation is the copying of copyrighted text with or without attribution against the terms of the copyright licence (with an allowance for "fair use" in nearly all jurisdictions). Plagiarism is the passing off of someone else's work as one's own, whether the work is copyrighted or not. This is not copyright violation, because it is out of copyright, and not plagiarism, because it is properly attributed. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

So, let me get this straight, are users saying that it is ok to copypaste text from an out of copyright text as long as that text is attributed? This feels very wrong, which wikipolicies allow this?Boynamedsue (talk) 22:19, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

See the content guideline at Wikipedia:Plagiarism. While at least some editors would prefer that such material be rewritten by an editor, there is no prohibition on copying verbatim from free sources; it is allowed as long as proper attribution to the original source is given. Donald Albury 22:39, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I think it needs to be done with considerable caution if at all, and it just seems like a less ideal option in almost every case, save for particular passages that are just too hard to rewrite to the same effect. But I think the consensus is that it is allowed. Remsense诉 01:20, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Copyright has a limited term (though these days, in many countries, a very long one) precisely to allow the work of the past to be built upon to generate new creative works. isaacl (talk) 01:48, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Nothing new is generated when you copy something verbatim. Traumnovelle (talk) 08:43, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Remixing from sampled works is increasingly common. Imitating other people's work is done to learn new styles. Jazz music specifically has a tradition of incorporating past standards into new performances. Critical analysis can be more easily placed in context as annotations. And from an educational standpoint, more people can learn about/read/watch/perform works when the barrier to disseminating them is lessened. What's in copyright today is the source of new widely-spread traditional works in the future. isaacl (talk) 14:44, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Aye, every time you read a poem it's a new translation. If this were Wikiversity, I think there'd actually be a lot of room for interesting experiments remixing\ PD material. Remsense诉 14:46, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

You wrote a lot but none of it actually addresses what I've said. Traumnovelle (talk) 15:33, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I gave examples of new creative works that have copied past work verbatim. isaacl (talk) 04:11, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Actually, comparing the two, and looking at the edit history, it is not at all true that "...This article is a word for word copy from this source." Much has been changed or rewritten (and many of the spicy bits removed). This is fairly typical for this sort of biography, I would say. Johnbod (talk) 02:48, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I was a bit imprecise there, it is the first three to four paragraphs of the life section that are directly lifted word for word. I'm just a little shocked at this as anywhere other than wikipedia this would be classified as gross plagiarism.Boynamedsue (talk) 05:21, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

If it's clearly noted as an excerpt (and not just a reference) I wouldn't feel able to say that. However like I've said above, the number of cases where this would be the best option editorially is vanishingly few for an excerpt of that length. Remsense诉 05:22, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

(As such, I've explicated the attribution in the footnote itself, not just the list of works.) Remsense诉 05:37, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

• Collecting, copying or reproducing high quality, classic writings on a topic is quite common in publishing. See anthology, for example. Andrew🐉(talk) 20:54, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

That is true, but publishing big chunks of it unchanged as part of a new book under a new name, without specifically stating that this text was written by someone else is not. If you cite someone else, you have to use different language, unless you make it clear you are making a direct quotationBoynamedsue (talk) 21:01, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

But the article does (and did) specifically state that it was written by someone else. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:31, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

It didn't. It cited a source, that is not the same as stating the text was a direct quotation from that source. It now states: "This article incorporates text from this source, which is in the public domain" which is an improvement but does not differentiate between which parts are direct quotes and which use the source properly.Boynamedsue (talk) 21:40, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

That seems very unneeded, as no one is claiming specific authorship of this article, and as the material used for derivation has long been linked to so that one can see what that version said. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 21:50, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Anywhere but wikipedia, passing off someone else's words as your own is plagiarism. The kind of thing that people are rightly sacked, kicked out of universities or dropped by publishers for. This includes situations where a paper is cited but text is copy-pasted without being attributed as a quote.

I'm more than a little shocked by this situation, but if so many experienced editors think that it's ok, there's not much I can do about it.Boynamedsue (talk) 22:00, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

That's because we aren't trying to impress the teacher with our sooper riting skilz. We're providing information to the WP:READER, who isn't supposed to care who wrote what. This is fundamentally a collective effort. Note the tagline is "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" not "By Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia". There exist WP:FORKS of Wikipedia where 99.9% of the content is unchanged. Are they plagiarizing us?

An analogy that might help is the stone soup. If you grew the carrots yourself, great! But if you legally gleaned them instead, so what? The soup is still tastier. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 22:27, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, wiki-mirrors are clearly plagiarising wikipedia, even though they are breaking no law. Wikipedia is a collective effort of consenting wikipedians, it is not supposed to be a repository of texts stolen from the dead. That's wikisource's job.Boynamedsue (talk) 22:34, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

A Wikipedia article doesn't proport to be your work. They are a collaborative effort by multiple people. The fact that some of these people are long dead before this text shows up here is irrelevant. If copying from a PD source, you certainly should make it clear where the text is from, but it's not an absolute requirement. Additionally, if a statement of the source wasn't done by the revsion author, it can be done subsequently by anyone else (assuming no blocks or bans forbid this particular person from editing this particular article). Animal lover |666| 15:28, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't see why it would be acceptable for it not to be made clear. Once more, there's a distinction between copyvio and plagiarism—the fault with the latter for our purposes broadly being that readers are not adequately made aware of where what they are reading came from. The obvious default assumption of any reader is that they are reading something a Wikipedia editor wrote. Tucked away as it is, there is an edit history that lists each contributing editor. This is not superfluous context to me, it's about maintaining a sane relationship between editors and audience. Even if there's potentially nothing wrong with it divorced from social context, in terms of pure claims and copyright law—we don't live in a media environment divorced from social context, there's no use operating as if we don't meaningfully exist as authors and editors. Remsense诉 15:34, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

By the way, plagiarizing Wikipedia would be a copyright violation, since Wikipedia texts are released under a license that requires attribution. Same can't be said for PD texts. Animal lover |666| 18:43, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

When EB1911 was published, copyright in the United Kingdom expired seven years after the author's death, so "the dead" would probably just be surprised that it took so long for their work to be reprinted. Wikipedia exists to provide free content, the defining feature of which is that it can be reused by anyone for any purpose (in our case, with attribution). So it shouldn't really be surprising that experienced editors here are generally positive about reusing stuff. – Joe (talk) 19:18, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

The stuff you are claiming is "plagiarized" is getting far better attribution than most of the writing in Wikipedia. Most of the contributing writers get no credit on the page itself, it is all in the edit history. I'm not sure whose writing you think we're passing this off as. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 15:19, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

I think simply being stated at the bottom is pretty much exactly the level of credit editors get—for me to feel comfortable with it it should be stated inline, which is what I added after the issue was raised. Remsense诉 15:21, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

To be fair I think the only reason these things tend to be noted with a template at the bottom of the article is that the vast majority of public domain content was imported in the project's early days, as a way of seeding content, and back then inline citations were barely used. – Joe (talk) 19:23, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Uh, what are we going to do, dock their pay? jp×g🗯️ 07:42, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Was thinking more along the lines of tagging the text or reverting, a talkpage message and possibly blocks for recidivists. But like I said earlier, it appears that the consensus is that things are fine how they are. World's gone mad, but what am I off to do about it? Nowt. Boynamedsue (talk) 08:14, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

The text you're worried about was added twelve years ago by a user who that has been blocked for the last eleven years (for, wait for it... improper use of copyrighted content). I think that ship has sailed. – Joe (talk) 08:24, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

There you go, gateway drug.Boynamedsue (talk) 08:27, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think that hypothesis is replicable. Alpha3031 (t • c) 09:58, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

• There does appear to be a consensus that such works need to be attributed somehow, and despite whatever disagreement there is, the disagreement in substance appears to be how that is done. What we are doing in these instances is republication (which is a perfectly ordinary thing to do), and yes we should let the reader know that is being done, but I'm not seeing a suggestion for changing how we do that. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:53, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

  It seems to me that the OP asked a question and got an answer, and discussion since has been extracurricular. Remsense诉 14:57, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

  Sure, but the OP does have a point that the more the use of the work looks like our work and not someone else's work, the more it looks like plagiarism. For example, putting a unique sentence in from another's work, and just dropping a footnote, like all the other sentences in our article, is not enough, in that instance you should likely use quotation marks and even in line attribution. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:19, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

  I think, as with most things, it depends on the situation. Plagiarism is not just the use of words without attribution, but ideas. An idea that has general acceptance might get attributed inline once in an article if it is associated strongly with a specific person or set of persons. But every mention of DNA's double helix doesn't have to be accompanied with an attribution to Watson and Crick. If some info about a person is written up by a reporter in a now public-domain source, for many cases it's probably not too essential to have inline attribution when including that info in an article. If it's something that reporter was known for breaking to the public, then it would be relevant. isaacl (talk) 15:43, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

  But that was not the situation being discussed, it was word for word, copying the work. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:48, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

  Sure; just underscoring that if the concern is plagiarism, it applies more broadly to the restatement of ideas. Rewording a sentence doesn't prevent it from being plagiarism. Even with a sentence being copied, I feel the importance of an inline attribution depends on the situation, as I described. isaacl (talk) 15:55, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

  Sure, but that is similar a simple phrase alone, like 'He was born.' cannot be copyrighted nor the subject of plagiarism. Now if you use the simple phrase 'He was born.' in a larger poem and someone baldly copies your poem in large part with the phrase, the copyist violated your copyright, if still in force, and they did plagiarize. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:19, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, copying a poem likely warrants inline attribution, so... it depends on the situation. isaacl (talk) 16:24, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

  And that's the issue raised, regarding republication on wiki, is it currently enough to address plagiarism. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:35, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

  I think the need for inline attribution depends in the same way as for content still under copyright. The original question only discussed the copyright status as a criterion. I don't think this by itself can be used to determine if inline attribution is needed. isaacl (talk) 16:43, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

  As plagiarism and copyright are two different, if sometimes related, inquiries. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:08, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

  >If some info about a person is written up by a reporter in a now public-domain source, for many cases it's probably not too essential to have inline attribution

  It absolutely is essential per WP:V. Traumnovelle (talk) 15:49, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

  Attribution is required. Inline attribution is not (that is, stating the source within the prose). isaacl (talk) 15:58, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

  It still requires sourcing. Traumnovelle (talk) 16:06, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, attribution is sourcing. isaacl (talk) 16:15, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

  I think, better to distinguish the two. Attribution is explicitly letting the reader know these words, this idea, this structure came from someone else, whereas sourcing is letting the reader know you can find the gist or basis for the information in my words, there. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:16, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

  My apologies for being unclear. I was responding to the statement that inline attribution absolutely is essential. Providing a reference for the source of content is necessary. Providing this information within the prose, as opposed to a footnote, is not. isaacl (talk) 19:57, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

  Certainly, it is possible to put explicit attribution in the footnote parenthetical or in an efn note. (I think your response to this might be , 'it depends' :))Alanscottwalker (talk) Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:18, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

  I think you might be talking past each other. isaacl is simply stating that WP:V requires attribution, it does not require any particular method of attribution. What method of attribution is preferable in a given place is not a matter for WP:V. Thryduulf (talk) 23:55, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

  Should be be providing in-line attribution for every sentence on Wikipedia to let the reader know which editor wrote which part of it? Wikipedia isn't an academic paper, as long as we can verify that there are no copyright issues with the content (such as an attribution-required license), attribution doesn't matter. --Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 19:32, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

  Surely there's some reasonable position between "attribution doesn't matter" and "attribute every sentence inline". Remsense诉 09:06, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

  Yah, sorry those two extremes certainly don't follow from each other (Nor does the comment you are responding to discuss inline). The guideline is WP:Plagiarism and it does not go to those extremes on either end. (Also, Wikipedia does publically attribute each edit to an editor, and it does not need to be in the article, it is appendixed to the article.) -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 10:51, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

• Around 2006, I reworked a copy-pasted EB1911 biography about a 16th century person, it took me about a week. It has stood the test of time, and remains to this day a pretty good article despite having the same structure and modified sentences. The lead section is entirely new, and there are new sources and section breaks and pictures etc.. but the bulk of it is still that EB1911 article (reworded). I do not see the problem with this. Disney reworked Grimms tales. Hollywood redoes old stories. Sometimes old things are classics that stand the test of time, with modern updates. -- GreenC 16:44, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I think everybody is fine with articles which are largely based on a single source when they are reworded. It's not the platonic ideal, but it is a good start. The problem we are discussing is when people don't bother to reword. Well, I say problem, I have been told it's not one, so there's nothing left to say really.--Boynamedsue (talk) 20:06, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

If you actually just reword a source like 1911, you should still use the 1911 template, and no, the thing you have not explained is why the template is not enough. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. This proposal is WP:GREATWRONGS. The article John Leslie, 1st Duke of Rothes is perfectly fine. It does not violate any policy, guideline or consensus. There is nothing objectionable about that article. The proposal to rewrite the article would not improve the article and would result only in disruption. The proposal to put a template on the article solely to disparage the inclusion of public domain content in the article would result only in disruption. It would be disruptive to discuss this proposal further, because this proposal is disruptive, because this proposal is WP:GREATWRONGS. James500 (talk) 18:50, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

  Huh? There is no proposal. Also, there has long been a template used on the article. Your attempt to shut down discussion is also way, way off, (and your RGW claim is risible). Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:12, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

  I propose all WP:GREATWRONGS should be righted immediately.Boynamedsue (talk) 20:06, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

  WP:IAR! Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:12, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

  Amongst other things, the OP said that copying public domain text, with the correct attribution, "feels very wrong". James500 (talk) 20:49, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

So, WP:GREATWRONGS is applicable whenever anyone uses the word "wrong"?Boynamedsue (talk) 20:59, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Only when great. -- GreenC 15:44, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose any change to the practice of incorporating public domain content. Wikipedia is not an experiment in creative writing. It is an encyclopedia. It's sole and entire purpose is to convey information to readers. If readers can be informed through the conveyance of text that has entered the public domain, then this should not only be permissible, it should be applauded. BD2412 T 20:52, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

  Again, there is no proposal to do something different. The OP apparently forgot about things like anthologies and republication of out of copyright (like eg. all of Jane Austin's work, etc), but than when such matter was brought to his attention, retrenched to whether attribution was explicit (which we already do) enough, but has never explained what enough, is proposed. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:24, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

  The proposal was to create a maintenance template that encourages editors to delete all text copied from public domain sources from all Wikipedia articles, even if that text is correctly attributed, simply because it is copied from a public domain source. He actually tried to tag the article with Template:Copypaste (alleging copyright infringement), despite the fact that the content is public domain and was correctly attributed at the time, with the Template:DNB attribution template. James500 (talk) 23:49, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

  That's not a proposal, he asked what template is appropriate, and he was given the list of templates at Template:DNB. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:49, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

• oppose the existence of a proposal: I would like to clarify, wherever people think they are seeing a proposal, there isn't one. I asked a question about what tag to use when people plagiarise out of copyright texts. I got an answer I think is stupid and expressed incredulity for a couple of posts. Then, when I realised that people were indeed understanding what I was talking about, said if so many experienced editors think that it's ok, there's not much I can do about it. WP:NOVOTE has never been more literally true, there is nothing to vote on here...Boynamedsue (talk) 04:07, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

  Support not adding any more bold-face votes. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 04:19, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Alanscottwalker says above that the more the use of the work looks like our work and not someone else's work, the more it looks like plagiarism.

Animal lover says above that A Wikipedia article doesn't proport to be your work. They are a collaborative effort by multiple people. The fact that some of these people are long dead before this text shows up here is irrelevant.

I think this is a difference in how people implicitly view it. The first view says "A Wikipedia article is written by people who type the content directly into the editing window. If your username isn't in the article's history page, then your words shouldn't be in the article. Article content should come exclusively from Wikipedia editors. If it doesn't, it's not really a Wikipedia article. This is our implicit promise: Wikipedia is original content, originally from Wikipedia editors. If it's not original content, it should have a notice to the reader on it to say that we didn't write it ourselves. Otherwise, we are taking credit for work done by someone who is them and not-us in an us–them dichotomy".

The second view says "A Wikipedia article is a collection of text from different people and different places. Where it came from is unimportant. We never promised that the contents of any article came from someone who directly edited the articles themselves. It's silly to say that we need to spam an article with statements that bits and pieces were pasted in from public domain sources. We wouldn't countenance 'written by a random person on the internet' in the middle of article text, so why should we countenance a disclaimer that something was 'previously published by a reliable source'? I don't feel like I'm taking credit for any other editor's article contributions, so why would you think that I'm claiming credit for something copied from a public domain source?"

If you the first resonates strongly with you, then it's shocking to see {{PD-USGov}} and {{EB1911}} content casually and legally inserted into articles without telling the reader that those sentences had previously been published some place else. OTOH, if you hold the opposite view, then the first probably seems quite strange. As this is a matter of people's intuitive feelings about what Wikipedia means, I do not see any likelihood of editors developing a unified stance. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:56, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

This is a reasonable summary of the issue. I think many of those who hold the first view work in or have close ties to fields where plagiarism is considered a very bad thing indeed. Academic and publishing definitions of plagiarism include using the direct words of another writer, even when attributed, unless it is explicitly made clear that the copied text is a direct quotation. For people who hold that view outside of wikipedia, the existence of large quantities of plagiarised text would detract seriously from its credibility and validity as a project.Boynamedsue (talk) 07:07, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I work in publishing, and there is plenty of space there where such specificities are not generally called for. If one is doing an abridged edition, children's edition, or updated version of a book, one credits the work which one is reworking but does not separate out phrase by phrase of what is from that source. Much the same goes, of course, for film adaptations, music sampling, and so on. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 16:28, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I think the difference there is that you are giving primary credit to the original author, and your work is voluntarily subsumed into theirs (while of course correctly stating that it is a Children's version or an abridged edition, giving editor credits etc.). In wikipedia, we are taking other people's work and subsuming it into ours.--Boynamedsue (talk) 16:37, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I think the dichotomy is useful but I doubt anyone can subscribe to the pure form of either position. If I had to guess, I would assume most editors would agree with most of the sentences in both statements when presented in isolation. Remsense诉 07:13, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

No. Your characterization is too gross to be useful and your made up dichotomy is just silly. We have those templates precisely because we try to give credit where credit is due, per WP:PLAGIARISM, so there is nothing shocking at all about {{PD-USGov}} and {{EB1911}} content. Sure, there are other ways to do it, than those templates, even so. Plagiarism is not a law, so your reference to the law makes no sense. But what is the law is, Wikipedia has to be written by persons, who can legally licence what they put on our pages, and if you did not write it you can't release it, nor purport to release it nor make it appear you are releasing under your licence, when you can't and you aren't. And Wikipedia does not warrant we offer good information either, in fact Wikipedia disclaims it in our disclaimer, that does not mean Wikipedian's don't care about good information. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 10:23, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is written by people who freely license their contributions by the act of editing. But, public domain material is already free, does not need to be licensed, and so can be freely added to Wikipedia. Material that has been released under a free license can also be freely added to Wikipedia, subject to the conditions of the license, such as attribution (although we cannot copy material under a license that does not allow commercial use, but that has nothing to do with this discussion). There is no policy, rule, or law that Wikipedia has to be written by persons (although the community currently is rejecting material written by LLMs). Reliable content is reliable whether is written by Wikipedia editors based on reliable sources, or copied from reliable sources that are in the public domain or licensed under terms compatible with usage in Wikipedia. I believe that we should be explicitly citing everything that is in articles, even if I know that will not be happening any time soon. We should, however, be explicitly citing all public domain and freely-licensed content that is copied into Wikipedia, being clear that the content is copied. One of the existing templates or a specific indication in a footnote or in-line citation is sufficient, in my opinion. Donald Albury 14:43, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, you cannot present it as if you are licencing it (and indeed requiring attribution to you!) which is what you do if just copy the words into an article and don't say, in effect, 'this is not under my licence this is public domain, that other person wrote it.' (Your discussion of LLM's and what not, is just beside the point, you, a person, are copying, not someone else.) And your last point, we are in radical agreement certainly (about letting the reader know its public domain that other person wrote it, and that's what the templates try to do) we are not in a dichotomy, at all. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:28, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Alan, I think your response makes me more certain that my two polar ends are real. You're working from the viewpoint that if it's on the page, and does not contain words like "According to EB1911" outside of a little blue clicky number and outside of the history page, then the editor who put that text there is "purporting" that the text was written by that editor.

There's nothing in the license that requires is to let the reader know that it's public domain or that another person wrote it. You know that a quick edit summary is 100% sufficient for the license requirements, even if nothing in the text or footnotes mentions the source. The story you present sounds like this to me:

• The license doesn't require attribution for public domain content.
• Even if it did, it wouldn't require anything more visible than an edit summary saying "Copied from EB1911".
• So (you assert) there has to be in-text attribution ("According to EB1911, a wedding cake...") or a plain-text statement at the end of the article ("This article incorporates text from EB1911") to the public domain, so the casual, non-reusing reader knows that it wasn't written by whichever editor posted it on the page.

This doesn't logically follow. I suspect that what you've written so far doesn't really explain your view fully. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:44, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

No. Your false dichotomy has already been shown to be of no value. Now you add to your baseless assumptions about clicky numbers and what not. I think that editors add content to Wikipedia under the license (otherwise we would have no license), yet I also think we need to tell the reader that the matter comes from somewhere else, when it comes from somewhere else. None of that should be hard to understand for anyone. (And besides, article histories are not secrets, they are public and publicly tied to text available to the reader and anyone else.) It's just bizarre that you would imagine an unbridgeable void, when basically everyone is saying that a disclosure should be made, and they are only really discussing degrees and forms of disclosure. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:13, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, a disclosure should be made, and it was made. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:51, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, indeed, and that is why the discussion is about form. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:14, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Alan, I don't agree that the spectrum I describe is a false dichotomy, or that anyone has even attempted to show whether it has value, though I gather that you happen to disagree with it.

I don't agree that the CC-BY-SA license requires disclosure of the source of public domain material. I think that's a question for a bunch of lawyers to really settle, but based on my own understanding, it does not. I think that Wikipedia should have such requirements (e.g, in Wikipedia:Public domain, which notably does not mention the CC-BY-SA license as a reason to do so; instead, it says only that this is important for Wikipedia's reliability), but I don't think we have any reason to believe that the license does. This distinction may seem a little like hairsplitting, but if we propose to change our rules about how to handle these things, we should be accurate about what's required for which reasons. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:00, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

It should not take a lawyer to tell you that to grant a licence you first have to have a right, and that you should not be misrepresenting that you have right when you don't. A lawyer can't give you the ability to be honest. You're not proposing to change rules, and indeed there is no proposal here, so that proposal talk of yours is irrelevant at best. (As for your false dichotomy, it is just a figment of your imagination, a useless piece of rhetoric, where you pretend you know what others think.) Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:37, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Issues from Deletion Review

Here are two otherwise unrelated issues that have recently come up at Deletion Review.

Non-Admin Close as No Consensus

More than once in recent months, there has been an appeal to Deletion Review where a non-admin closed an Articles for Deletion discussion as No Consensus, and one of the questions at DRV was whether the close was a bad non-administrative close. The language in question is

A non-admin closure is not appropriate in any of the following situations:… The outcome is a close call (especially where there are several valid outcomes) or likely to be controversial.

It seems clear to some editors that a non-administrative close of No Consensus is almost always wrong, or at least may be overturned by an admin and then should be left for the admin. If it is correct that No Consensus is almost always a close call or that No Consensus is often likely to be controversial, then I suggest that the guideline be clarified to state that a non-administrative close of No Consensus is discouraged and is likely to be contested. If, on the other hand, it is thought that No Consensus is sometimes an obvious conclusion that can be found by a non-admin, then the guideline should be clarified in that respect.

Robert McClenon (talk) 05:18, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Any outcome can be controversial. But not all no-consensus outcomes are controversial. -- GreenC 17:03, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

If DRV has a strong consensus that the correct closure for some deletion discussion is "No Consensus", that's certainly not a controversial closure. As such, such a closure can be done and implemented by a non-admin. The DRV closure doesn't actually judge the original thread, only its DRV discussion. Animal lover |666| 17:35, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree with GreenC. Controversial discussions and discussions which do not reach consensus are overlapping sets but neither is a subset of the other. There are XfDs where it is clear to anybody with experience of Wikipedia that there is no and will be no consensus, there is no and should be no requirement to be an admin to close those discussions (the first example of a discussion that would clearly be suitable for a no-consensus NAC was Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Réseau Art Nouveau Network). Thryduulf (talk) 19:14, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I just want to throw out there that we really should have a category for trusted non-admin editors for discussion closures. There are editors with tremendous experience and a solid and well-demonstrated grasp of policies and procedures who for whatever reason have never become admins, and whose discussion closures should be given more consideration than relative newbies first experimenting with closures. BD2412 T 20:58, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Frivolous filings at DRV

Sometimes a filing at Deletion Review is frivolous because it does not identify any issue with the close or any error, and does not identify circumstances that have changed. Occasionally a request for Deletion Review misstates the facts. In one recent case, for instance, the appellant stated that there was only one Delete !vote, when there were three. Some of the editors have wondered whether there is some alternative to having such filings open for a week of discussion. Should there be a provision for Speedy Endorse, comparable to Speedy Keep 1 and Speedy Keep 3 at AFD? Robert McClenon (talk) 05:18, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Sure why not. If the nom doesn't like it, they can start a new DRV with the problem addressed. Sometimes that gives the nom time to reconsider and refactor in a new light, and they won't follow through. Sometimes it energizes them to create a really good rationale improving their chances of success. Either way it's helpful. And risky for whoever issues the Speedy. The speedy has to be done before too many people engage otherwise it will alienate and irritate the participants whose thoughtful comments are buried. -- GreenC 17:16, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes. "Speedy Endorse" should be allowed in situations parallel to any Speedy Keep rationale; as with Speedy Keep closures, they address the DRV discussion and not the underlying XFD discussion, and as such are no prejudice closures if the new discussion doesn't have the same issue. Animal lover |666| 17:40, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree with GreenC and Animal Lover. Although if other editors have also identified issues with the XfD close despite the inadequate nomination then a speedy close of the DRV is unlikely to be appropriate. Thryduulf (talk) 18:54, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

A user could create a DRV discussion on an inappropriate closure without expressing adequate justification, or while banned from the topic of the underlying article, each of these would be a speedy endorse if caught by someone who supports, or has no opinion on, the original closure. (Someone who supports it could give a justification in the first case, or merely support changing the closure in the second, and prevent any speedy endorse.) Animal lover |666| 05:44, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Most of these, in my experience, are already speedy-closable per WP:DRVPURPOSE #8, including your motivating example. We, insanely, don't enforce that. Why would you think that, if we added another similar rule, about statements that are less obviously made in bad faith, that we'd enforce it any more consistently? —Cryptic 10:56, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

It should be Speedy Close

Thank you for your comments. It occurs to me, based on further reviewing at DRV, that the provision should not be called Speedy Endorse, but Speedy Close, because some of the DRV's that should be closed in this manner are not really endorses because they are not really deletion reviews, but mistaken filings. There is one today which appears, after machine-translation from Romanian, to be about the deletion of an article in the Romanian Wikipedia. I have also seen Deletion Review requests where the nominator wanted to delete an article, and thought that a deletion review discussed whether to delete the article. So I think that I will take this discussion to the DRV talk page to try to discuss the wording of criteria for Speedy Closes at DRV, which will then probably be followed by an RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:47, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Should DRV be semi-protected?

I have one more policy idea about Deletion Review. Should Deletion Review, and its daily subpages, be semi-protected? I have occasionally seen Deletion Reviews started by unregistered editors, but I have never seen a reasonable Deletion Review initiated by an unregistered editor. Unregistered editors cannot nominate articles or miscellaneous pages for deletion because those involve creation of a subpage for the deletion discussion. They can start deletion reviews, but I see no encyclopedic purpose that requires that one be logged out or not have a valid account or not have an unblocked account in order to request deletion review. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:47, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Unless there are sufficiently many bad filings by new and unregistered users that they are disruptive then semi-protection seems like a solution in search of a problem. Thryduulf (talk) 08:17, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

While reasonable drvs initiated by ips and non-autoconfirmed users are rare, there are a handful of sensible, longtime IP contributors to DRV - I'm thinking 81.100.164.154 in particular, though there are others. —Cryptic 10:46, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

When should the "inspired by" section be used in an infobox?

I tried looking around but couldn't find anything on this topic. Presumably it is not intended to list every inspiration a work has, but what's the line for inclusion? Eldomtom2 (talk) 21:38, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Which infobox are you specifically concerned with? Different infoboxes may have different intended uses for that parameter. DonIago (talk) 22:05, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

It depends son the infobox, it has been removed from some due to problems it can cause. The documentation for others, such as {{Infobox television}}, say to only use it if it has been explicitly credited as such, again it depends which one is used. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:27, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

It's {{Infobox television}}, but there's debate over the precise definition of "explicitly credited". Some are arguing "explicit credit" includes external confirmation by the creators of the work that they were inspired by X, even if X isn't credited in the work itself.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 13:46, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion that led to the inspired_by parameter being added (2020) stipulated that it would only be in instances where an explicit "Inspired by" credit appears for a series, much like how series include "Based on" credits. Schazjmd (talk) 13:54, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I think only the latter (an actual on-screen credit) would be a reasonable interpretation on the consensus in that discussion. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 17:26, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Access date

Recently, Jax 0677 (talk · contribs) was using {{better source needed}} on Dia Frampton to indicate that the "access date" field was anachronistic to the content being cited by the source. This is obviously not the right citation template, as it gives the implication of "we need a more reliable source than Billboard itself for Billboard charts". What would be the right template to say "anachronistic access date"? Or should you just go in and fix it yourself? Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 00:09, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

There are several possible unrelated causes. I sometimes see that situation when a fact is cited using a temporally-consistent cite, and then a later fact is added with no update to the cite. The first table entry is reasonable from the original access-date. It's only the second row that is anachronistic. So either the editor who added it did not look for a cite at all or did not update the access-date when they did use that ref. Looking at the ref, either it does support, in which case the solution is to update the ref, or it does not support, in which case {{failed verification}} on the specific entry. I agree that {{bsn}} is clearly the wrong tag. DMacks (talk) 00:23, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps {{update source}}? Masem (t) 00:35, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that's the one. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 22:22, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

COI guidelines

When I first came on board as a Wiki editor, I thought what I was learning about COI meant that anyone with even the slightest connection to the subject of a Wiki article couldn't edit or write on that subject in Wikipedia. Now I've come to understand that it actually IS possible as long as the editor makes an official COI declaration. I'd have saved myself a few months of real concern about the fairness of this rule for a couple of topics on which I believed I could make a helpful contribution with a balanced perspective, if I'd grasped that COI doesn't automatically prohibit if disclosed. Like the disclosures that journalists make in stories to which they add "full disclosure" announcements about any connections they have to the subject that might cause assumptions of possible bias.

What I'd like to suggest to Wikipedia policymakers is that this important point about COI be made as clear as possible in all documentation about it. Then other editors — especially newbies, as I was when this issue came up for me — won't stumble around in the dark as to what they can and can't work on — at least, legitimately.

I realize that trying to ensure 100% clarity on this could be challenging, especially because a lot of what we learn about COI is not just through COI-related documentation but also through Teahouse and Help Desk discussions. Still, senior editors can probably think of many ways to make sure the distinction between a flat "NO, you can never" and "YES, you can if you ALSO do X" is better highlighted across the board.

Augnablik (talk) 07:06, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

It does seem like many new good-faith editors are very concerned about potential COI to a degree that is qualitatively more extreme than the norm among experienced editors. Of course, there are also many new, potentially good-faith editors seem not to feel any concern regarding COI whatsoever—though I cannot honestly characterize this side of the equation as anything but a comparative lack of familiarity with the guideline on average. Let's take a look at the current verbiage of WP:COI and see if there's something we can rewrite to better reflect the actual norms. Here's the first paragraph:

Conflict of interest (COI) editing involves contributing to Wikipedia about yourself, family, friends, clients, employers, or your financial and other relationships. Any external relationship can trigger a conflict of interest. Someone having a conflict of interest is a description of a situation, not a judgment about that person's opinions, integrity, or good faith.

Emphasis mine. This is tricky: the entire lead seems to define COI as automatically existing to a maximal logical extent. Nowhere does the lead nuance that most people can successfully edit about things they have particular interests in—in short, the lead does not adequately communicate that there can be interests without conflicts of interest.

I understand why this is: we don't want bad faith COI editors feeling emboldened by our nuance to push POV, or using it as a rhetorical shield when called out. But I still feel the lead should probably have at least one sentence explicating that (unpaid) COI only arises when one is personally unwilling or unable to edit according to site norms like they would on another topic. COI shouldn't be implied to be as total or even subconscious like it is in the lead as written. Remsense诉 07:53, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, @Remsense. Just having acknowledgment by a senior editor as to the validity of the issue — regardless of the eventual outcome — feels so nice and warm and fuzzy that I’ll just lie back and bask in it awhile … 🏖️ Augnablik (talk) 08:50, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Why would people understand "external relationships" to encompass interests in the first place? – Joe (talk) 11:13, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

It's simply a bit of a sticky phrase: it seems easy for nervous minds to give it a very broad definition. But I also understand how it's difficult to rephrase without making easier for bad-faith editors to argue around. Remsense诉 11:15, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Presumably working backwards as all "interests" are the result of external relationships of some kind. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:08, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Just to clarify something that's come up in a few of your recent posts, Augnablik: there are no "senior editors", working groups, or policymakers here. Our policies and guidelines can be edited by anyone, just like every other page, and aim to reflect the consensus of all editors.

On COI, I actually think your first understanding was correct. As always there are a range of opinions on the subject, but in general the community does not want you to edit topics on which you have a COI. That is why the nutshell summary of WP:COI is do not edit Wikipedia in your own interests, nor in the interests of your external relationships and the first sentence, after defining what it is, reads COI editing is strongly discouraged on Wikipedia. However, Wikipedia has no firm rules (there are no "you can nevers"), so it's impossible for us to complete forbid it. Hence the procedures for disclosed COI editing; they're there for those who insist on not following the clear instruction at the top of the page (do not edit). They exist, but that doesn't necessarily mean we want to highlight them. – Joe (talk) 11:10, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Joe, I think it's more complicated than that. First, I'll take the sentence Remsense highlighted, and highlight it in a different way: Any external relationship can trigger a conflict of interest – but just because it can doesn't mean that it will.

Second, consider what the OP says: anyone with even the slightest connection to the subject. What's "the slightest connection"? If you take a train to work, do you have at least "the slightest connection" to Commuter rail? To the specific transit agency? Only to the specific line you take?

I think most editors would say that isn't an "external relationship" at all, though I have had one editor claim that nobody should edit the articles about the towns where they were born, lived, etc., because (in that editor's opinion) it's possible to have a relationship with an inanimate object. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:00, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

@Joe Roe, this is something far from what I thought was COI. Firstly, I am still seeing that "slightest connection" as something else. Initially, COI should be editing people you know and not things you know. Okay, IMO, does editing someone/something you know and have seen a COI. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 22:30, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm literally just quoting the guideline. Slightest connection is Augnablik's wording, not mine. – Joe (talk) 08:11, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Actually, “slightest connection” is @WhatamIdoing‘s wording. Augnablik (talk) 12:15, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

No, "slightest connection" is from the very first sentence of this thread: I thought what I was learning about COI meant that anyone with even the slightest connection to the subject. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:35, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I would say my point is that one can take different emphases away from the lead as written. I think an explicit statement, perhaps a single sentence, which delimits the scope would go a long way to narrow this potential interpretive gap. It's hard to feel because we know what this verbiage means in practice, but it's very plausible to me that a chunk of new editors—those of a nervous disposition, if you like—come away fearing for their own ability to edit neutrally, worried about COI in situations where others generally don't have problems. They simply don't have enough experience yet to know that. Remsense诉 08:30, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Beside “those of a nervous disposition” who might be “worried about COI in situations where others generally don’t have problems,” add those of us still somewhat wet behind the ears who’ve now read many Teahouse COI-related exchanges in which the point was driven home about fates like banishment awaiting us if we stray outside the pale. Augnablik (talk) 12:35, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I intended my characterization as broadly and neutrally as possible, apologies if that doesn't get across. Remsense诉 12:53, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps what would be most helpful is if the Teahouse regulars didn't try to (over)simplify the COI rules.

Part of our problem is that the rules are taught by telephone game, with each person in the chain simplifying it just a little more, and making it sound just a little stronger, until the story ends up being a false caricature of the real rules. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:38, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

If this is in direct response to me, I‘ll try my best to offer better advice in the future. Remsense诉 16:41, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I've no idea who is taking care of the Teahouse these days. I doubt that anyone in this discussion is the primary source of this problem (though perhaps we should all do our best to improve in this and all other areas). WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:07, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I think WP:COI has a significant weak point, specifically the sentence: How close the relationship needs to be before it becomes a concern on Wikipedia is governed by common sense. Because a COI is about the existence of a relationship and not the editor's actual ability to edit without bias, there is no obvious or common way to tell what degree of closeness triggers it. It's inherently arbitrary where that line is drawn. The result of that ambiguity is that some conscientious editors may be unnecessarily excluding themselves from broad swaths of articles where they could productively edit based on a trivial personal connection.--Trystan (talk) 14:00, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

We've also seen in recent discussions that different long-established editors editing in good faith can have very different interpretations of where the line should be drawn. Thryduulf (talk) 15:03, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, this has beeen an eye-opener for me as a still-newish editor … and the writer of the post that started off this thread. It hadn’t occurred to me that “different long-established editors editing in good faith” — those in position to make judgments about COI infractions by their less long-established brethren — might be using somewhat different measuring tapes.

The outcome of this thread is very important to me, as I’ll shortly have to make a self-applied COI label for an article I’ll be submitting, and I want to get everything as straight as I can about COI before then.

Thank you to everyone who’s added insights to this discussion. I hope it brings about the clarity we need. Augnablik (talk) 19:57, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Stick around long enough, and you will find that “long-established editors editing in good faith” can (and do) disagree on how to interpret almost all of our policies and guidelines. We (usually) agree on the essence of P&G, but the nuances? Not so much. But that’s OK. Blueboar (talk) 21:36, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

If an editor does not think they should edit because of COI, that's fine. As with most everything here, we rely on their judgement, all the time, and if they have a question about it, they can ask in multiple places, as with everything else. This is not the most difficult judgement they will face here. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:00, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

To be fair if their edits are entirely appropriate the COI will almost certainly never be identified... We generally only identify COI by first identifying problematic editing and then ending on COI as the most likely explanation for them, in cases where its genuinely not disruptive nobody notices. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:16, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Doesn't that suggest that the COI analysis is largely irrelevant? If my editing of Famous Author's biography is problematic, does it matter whether it is because I am her sister (COI) or just a devoted fan (no COI, just ordinary bias)?--Trystan (talk) 17:47, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes the vast majority of the time the COI analysis is largely irrelevant. Also fans have a COI (its an external relationship like any other), just normally one below the common sense threshold. Superfans or similar though do have a serious COI and we have big issues with them. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:52, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't say a fan of any sort has a close relationship with the subject within the meaning of COI. They may have a metric tonne of bias, but per WP:COINOTBIAS, the presence or absence of actual bias is irrelevant to whether a COI relationship exists.--Trystan (talk) 20:46, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

The President of the Jimmie SingsGood Fanclub has a massive COI in regards to Jimmie SingsGood and you can work down from there, also note that the relationship doesn't have to be close to trigger a COI... The standard here is common sense. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:51, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

How close the relationship needs to be before it becomes a concern on Wikipedia is governed by common sense. Common sense (allegedly) determines whether the closeness of the relationship is problematic, so closeness is inherently important. I could see a fan club president having a COI, but only by virtue of holding that specific role.--Trystan (talk) 21:10, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Any level of fandom which effects their ability to edit the topic dispassionately is too close, we're supposed to be editors not advocates. Thats the problem with self policing COI... If it is a genuine COI then the person will be incapable of recognizing whether or not their edits are neutral. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 05:17, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

You're on the right track, but its not so much irrelevant as a different and generally harder inquiry for a person to undertake about themselves, not 'do I have a defined relationship', but the more self-searching and self knowing inquiry of something like, 'am I able to separate here from my bias, or is it too much to be me to be fair.' (I think many editors avoid topics, at least to an extensive level, where they know they have no desire to be unbiased in their writing about it, or they think they cannot, but they have to know themselves on that, not something like an external relationship). -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:16, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

That is very much how I approach my own editing, and identifying when I should step back from a topic. But that is fundamentally about applying WP:NPOV. I am not able to reconcile that self-reflective approach with WP:COINOTBIAS, which explicitly clarifies that a COI exists where a relationship exists, irrespective of the editor’s bias, state of mind, or integrity.--Trystan (talk) 21:48, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

That's it, it's a different inquiry, as that part says though, they may have some overlap. --Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:01, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

No. Because the best, most effective, and often only thing between good and the abyss is you, just you alone, so you have got to, got to do the consideration, you're the only one there is. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:52, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Correct. What matters is whether your edits are problematic, not why they are (or aren't). Thryduulf (talk) 18:57, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

If you want to follow this literally, if you are a human being, and edit any article about human beings, be sure to declare your COI.  :-) We really need to calibrate this to acknowledge the widely varying degrees of strength of COI. Also to fix how this is often usable/used in a McCarthy-esqe way. North8000 (talk) 17:03, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

If you do not want to not exercize judgement, this is just a rough place to be. COI is certainly easier to navigate and involves a ton less work than NPOV, to anyone who takes NPOV seriously. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:12, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, it is difficult to be a new editor. I do not see why this means we can't try to help them. Remsense诉 17:14, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Best not to assume new editors are helpless. How demeaning that would be. Some need no help, and others should ask. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:19, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

If it has the appearance of a conflict, it probably is a conflict. Selfstudier (talk) 17:04, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

If that were truly the case, we wouldn't need the policy. Remsense诉 17:05, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Still need the policy, but that criteria always works in edge cases. Selfstudier (talk) 17:08, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't know about you, but no one I've ever met is able to reliably tell when something is pornography. Ever. Remsense诉 17:17, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

How is that a COI? Selfstudier (talk) 17:22, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Its a Jacobellis v. Ohio reference to the fuzziness of the "I know it when I see it" standard. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:25, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, that's an oblique reference as regards the "if it looks like X, then it probably is" device. Remsense诉 17:26, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I see now. Just when it was getting interesting :) Selfstudier (talk) 17:33, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Except what has "the appearance of a conflict" to one editor can be completely different to what has "the appearance of a conflict" to another editor, even if they are both very experienced - let alone to those who aren't. Thryduulf (talk) 17:06, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

As per above, I am talking about the point where the line is drawn (because it isn't). Selfstudier (talk) 17:10, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

The point where the line is drawn needs to be clear to new and old editors alike, determining the point based on vague phrases that not even all regulars can agree on is actively unhelpful. Thryduulf (talk) 17:13, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Let me know when it is drawn, and good luck with that. Selfstudier (talk) 17:15, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Oh many people would draw the lines in roughly the same place and they would do it quickly too, but in the end if they have empathy they should probably say, if you are still in significant doubt stay away, you don't need that, do other stuff. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:24, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Especially for controversial subjects (not all of which are WP:CTOPS), there is an unfortunate pattern of "any edit that doesn't push my POV is motivated by COI". I don't think there's ever going to be an easy agreement here. On the one hand, we have editors feeling obliged to leave serious errors in articles because they have a tenuous connection to the subject, and being praised by those who think readers are better served by unlabeled bad content than by that bad content being removed by someone who is "tainted". On the other hand, we have people leveling COI accusations when an editor with a tenuous connection fixes simple, non-controversial, non-content problems (e.g., an AWB run for WP:REFPUNCT mistakes). WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:24, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

These hypothetical 'what someone else thinks' of yours, are often absurdist and just caricatures of nothing real. And it appears your statement has no bandwidth for 'if you have a question, ask'. ask'Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:33, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I've no objection to people asking, though if they're given permission to edit, I would not want them to trust that the permission is worth much. Absurd accusations are par for the course in some subject areas, and appear whenever the accuser thinks it could give him an advantage in a dispute. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:31, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

We used to have an excellent gold standard in the lead and in bold at wp:coi, it was "when advancing outside interests is more important to an editor than advancing the aims of Wikipedia, that editor stands in a conflict of interest." This is of course a function of several things such as the strength of the potential-coi situation and the ability/propensity of the editor to only wear their Wikipedia hat when editing Wikipedia.North8000 (talk) 17:13, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I would support re-adding something concrete like this back to the lead, it's really all I've been asking for. Remsense诉 17:16, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

How about "An apparent conflict of interest is one in which a reasonable person would think that judgment is likely to be compromised." Selfstudier (talk) 17:25, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Given that reasonable, good faith, experienced Wikipedia editors cannot agree when judgement is likely to be compromised that is definitely not a good formulation. I'd support readding the old one that North8000 quotes as is. Thryduulf (talk) 17:28, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

You think that they will agree then? Selfstudier (talk) 17:30, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

That was removed in an effort to make our guideline at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest mirror the real-world conception of Conflict of interest. There are advantages to both approaches, but I doubt that there will be much appetite for reverting. The old style requires more trust in other people's willingness to do the right thing. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:28, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

It also left us more vulnerable to the crowd who perpetually perceives the communities interests to be one and the same as their own... "What do you mean making a page about my boss wasn't ok? The article is good and the point of wikipedia is having good articles! Better that I, an expert, write this article than someone who doesn't know that they're talking about" Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:31, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

The purpose of Wikipedia is making good quality encyclopaedic information available to people. We define good quality encyclopaedic information to be information that is all of:

• Reliable
• Verifiable
• Neutral
• About subjects we deem notable

If the content meets all of those requirements we want it, if it doesn't we don't. If someone writes a good quality encyclopaedic article about a notable subject (and/or improves an article about a notable subject) we should welcome their content with open arms, regardless of why they wrote it. If their content does not meet those requirements then we should remove it (and explain as best we can why), regardless of why they wrote it. Thryduulf (talk) 19:06, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Not sure what the point is, we can block editors and keep their content... we do it all the time. We can also remove content without blocking editors, again we do it all the time. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:11, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

The point is that what content we keep and what content we remove should be decided entirely based on the content, not the attributes or motivation of the author and especially not the alleged or presumed attributes or motivations of the author. We should not be blocking editors who write good content just because we don't like why they wrote it. Thryduulf (talk) 19:23, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

A behavioral issue is an issue regardless of the quality of the content, just as editor should have little or no bearing on whether we keep content... Content should have little or no bearing on whether we keep an editor. For example undisclosed paid editing is inherently contrary to the purposes of wikipedia regardless of the content of the paid edits. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:55, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Putting ideological concerns about paid editing and conflict of interest ahead of our objective of building an encyclopaedia is inherently contrary to the purpose of Wikipedia. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:15, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

One could bring ideological concerns into it (I have not), but the practical concerns about paid editing and conflict of interest are significant enough on their own to make it a largely philosophical exercise. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:17, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

The only practical (rather than philosophical) concerns about paid and other COI editing are whether the content is neutral, due and verifiable - and all of those are true whether someone is paid and/or has a COI. The purpose of Wikipedia is to produce and make available good quality encyclopaedic information. Everything that impedes that goal is contrary to Wikipedia's purpose. Deleting good quality encyclopaedic information because it was written by someone who has (or might have) a COI and/or was paid to write it is contrary to Wikipedia's purpose. Blocking someone who writes good content because they were paid to write it and/or had some other POV is contrary to Wikipedia's purpose. Thryduulf (talk) 22:14, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Thats not true, there are other practical concerns (such as reader trust, editor time, and subtle NPOV manipulation through for example content exclusion not content inclusion). The #1 thing that people expect for example of the Coca-Cola article in terms of quality is that it isn't written by Coca-Cola... If it is then it serves no encyclopedic purpose because the whole point of encyclopedias is that they aren't written by the subjects of the entries. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 05:23, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

"Subtle NPOV manipulation" is part of "whether the content is neutral, due and verifiable".

Reader trust is not affected by this. Readers do not know who writes articles. They never really think about that. Quite a lot of them believe that all articles are written for pay, through an organized professional system, or at least by subjects who are paying to have an article created. The fastest way to reduce reader trust (this is backed up by formal user research done by the WMF over the last decade, and you can read about it on Meta-Wiki and at mediawiki.org if you're interested) is to point out the existence of the Edit button and prove to them that they can actually edit the articles themselves. (But don't worry too much: Cognitive bias usually kicks in before the end of the interview, and they invent reasons to justify their prior trust despite their recent discovery, which really shocks most of them, that Wikipedia actually is the encyclopedia anyone can edit.)

Reader trust is also affected by article content, but not usually in ways that will make you happy. Specifically, readers trust articles (here and elsewhere on the web) when the article tells them what they already believe and expect. This has an interesting implication for paid editors: Most readers already expect that articles are being paid for; therefore, when you tell them that articles are paid for, they are neither surprised nor disgusted by this revelation. They think that's normal, and they're okay with it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:46, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

The content itself may be neutral, but its addition may make the article non-neutral. Readers don't need to think about who wrote the articles because they trust that independent editors wrote them, that is after all what we've led them to believe. Knowing that some articles contain paid edits is not the same thing as thinking that all edits are paid, clearly there is an expectation that they won't be. I would cease editing wikipedia for good if our COI restrictions were lifted, that is a practical impact you can't deny or obfuscate around. Encyclopedia are not written by their subjects, if you and Thryduulf want Wikipedia articles to be written by their subjects then you don't want us to be an encyclopedia. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 05:58, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Now it's even clearer that you are not listening, and now your putting words into our mouths. I'm no longer convinced you are contributing to this discussion in good faith. Thryduulf (talk) 07:48, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

You didn't say I wasn't listening earlier, you leveled that charge at a different editor ([15]. I'm not not going to assume bad faith, I'm going to assume that you were just mistaken about which editor your comments were addressed to. If you could join me in AGF I would appreciate it. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:10, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Thus, proper COI handling is essential to Wikipedia's purpose. No one of any real discernment is going find an encyclopedia good if it can't be honest and even has people pretend they can't even understand COI. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:31, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Nobody is pretending they can't understand COI. Multiple people are explaining why they disagree with you about what constitutes a conflict of interest and what level of conflict of interest is relevant to Wikipedia. Handling of COI is essential only to the point that we ensure the content is NPOV, everything else is irrelevant or actively harmful. Thryduulf (talk) 22:16, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Then, you really don't understand COI, if you can't bring yourself to disclose it. It's not a good encyclopedia when it misrepresents itself, like when autobiography is misrepresented as biography. Or the writings of the owner of the company on the company is represented as not the writing of the owner of the company. etc. etc. (It also appears you don't understand that Wikipedia is a publisher, and disclosing COI is what good publishers do, certainly good publishers of anything they are presenting to others as something to rely on.) -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:58, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

You are not listening. If the content in a Wikipedia article is encyclopaedic, neutral, verifiable, and DUE then is no misrepresentation because those are the only things a Wikipedia article claims to be (and sometimes not even that, e.g. an article or section tagged as being non-neutral is not representing itself as neutral). Whether an editor has a COI is a completely different matter. Whether an editor who has a COI should, must and/or does disclose that COI is a third matter.

If editor 1 writes words that other editors (who do not have a COI) state is encyclopaedic, neutral, verifiable and DUE then the content is encyclopaedic, neutral, verifiable and DUE and it is irrelevant whether editor 1 has or does not have a COI. Thryduulf (talk) 23:41, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

No, you are not listening it's not a good encyclopedia when it is dishonest, and it can't be trusted in anything (certainly no one of any sense can trust it to judge neutrality or reliability) when it won't or refuses to be honest. Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:50, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

If the words on the page are encyclopaedic, neutral, verifiable, and DUE then there is no dishonesty. That applies regardless of who wrote it and why they wrote it. Whether an article is all of those things is independent of who wrote it and why they wrote it - if every author has a COI with the subject then it could be all or none of those things, if no author has a COI with the subject then it could be all or none of those things. Thryduulf (talk) 00:10, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

There is dishonesty, and I already showed how, Wikipedia thus cannot be trusted (by anyone of any sense) to judge encyclopaedic, neutral, verifiable, and DUE. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:13, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

After all this time do you really not understand how COI works or is this an elaborate act? From where I sit it looks like we have an WP:IDNHT issue here, you're just not being reasonable and its becoming disruptive. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 05:24, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

You all aren't going to agree. HEB, Thryduulf knows how COI works. He's just saying that there happens to be another value that he finds more important. Different people are allowed to have different values. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:49, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Denial of objective reality is not holding a different value. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 06:04, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

HEB and Alanscottwalker, please cease the personal attacks and start reading what other people are writing rather than assuming that if someone disagrees with you that they must be denying reality. If you are unable to discuss things rationally then Wikipedia is not the place for you.

I know what a COI is, I just disagree that it matters in any way beyond whether the article is neutral, etc. If the article is neutral it is neutral regardless of who wrote it. If the article is not neutral it is not neutral, regardless of who wrote it. Thryduulf (talk) 07:54, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

You're the one not reading. And there is no assumption by me here. Your use of as that a false attack against me, going so far as to invite me off the project, suggests how bereft your position is. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 08:20, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Please explain how accusing me of "not understanding COI" and of "denying reality" because I hold a view with which you disagree is not a personal attack. Thryduulf (talk) 08:35, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I already explained how you do not understand COI, as for denying reality that was not me, but it appears to be in reference to denying the reality of COI. COI is not invented by Wikipedia, and it's what good publishers disclose. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 08:42, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I already explained how you do not understand COI except you haven't. You've repeatedly stated that you disagree with my view about the way/degree to which COI matters, but that is not at all the same thing. Who invented COI and what publishers other than Wikipedia do are not relevant to what Wikipedia does and/or should do.

There are multiple things being unhelpfully conflated here:

• What constitutes a COI.
• What constitutes a COI that is relevant to Wikipedia.
• How, when and where a COI (relevant to Wikipedia) should be disclosed.
• Whether Wikipedia content is or is not neutral.

The last bullet is completely independent of the others: If content is neutral it is neutral regardless of who wrote it. If content is not neutral it is not neutral regardless of who wrote it. Thryduulf (talk) 09:01, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

No. I did explain it. And as can be told, you do not understand which goes along with you not understanding COI. That you suggest being a good publisher is irrelevant, suggests you don't understand what being a good publisher is, which also suggests you don't understand what we are doing here (the submit button is a publishing button), which also suggests you don't understand COI in publishing, and which also suggests you don't understand what a good published encyclopedia is. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 10:21, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

You are the one who is clearly either not reading or not understanding. If it is the former then there is nothing relevant I can say. If it is the latter then trying to explain things in a different way may help, I'll give it one more go but I don't hold out much hope - perhaps someone else will have more luck?

Every time we click the submit button something is published. That something should be all of encyclopaedic, neutral, verifiable and DUE. In reality it can be in one of three states:

1. All of those things
2. Some of those things (e.g. verifiable but not DUE, neutral but not verifiable, etc)
3. None of those things

Which it is depends entirely on the actual words that are published. A given set of words falls into one of the above categories regardless of who wrote it. If "MegaCorp is the oldest and largest manufacturer of widgets in the United Kingdom. It won the Queen's Award for Widget Making seven times between 1999 and 2014." is all of encyclopaedic, verifiable, neutral and DUE then it is all of those things regardless of whether they were written by the CEO or by someone with no connection to the organisation at all. If the same two sentences are some or none of the four things an article should be then that is true regardless of who wrote it. Thryduulf (talk) 11:13, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Once again you have not been reading. And once again you demonstrate no understanding of COI in publishing. Or to the extent you do understand it, you are encouraging poor publishing, and a poor encyclopedia. Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:56, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Now you are just repeating yourself. I understand exactly what you are saying, I just disagree with it. I have repeatedly explained why I disagree with it, but you are clearly either uninterested in or incapable of understanding the difference between disagreeing with you and not understanding you. Either way continuing to engage with you is a waste of time. Thryduulf (talk) 13:03, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

It seems, you not bothering to even read what you write, to the extent I have repeated iit is to respond to your repetitious demonstration of misunderstanding. As I explained in the beginning, you evidence little to no understanding of COI in publishing, let alone good publishing or the good publishing of an encyclopedia. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:27, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

That statement was always bad, because COI is about relationships which cloud issues of what's important with respect to the subject. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:39, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

• Just as safety regulations are written in blood, Wikipedia's COI guidelines are written in characters scavenged from promotional fluff. – Teratix ₵ 03:48, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

  That's a non sequitur. Promotional fluff can be added to an article by anybody for any reason and it is completely irrelevant why because we don't want it in our articles regardless of who wrote it or why. Thryduulf (talk) 07:59, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

  On the contrary, it's extremely relevant. Editors with a conflict of interest on a subject, all else being equal, are much more likely to add biased content to an article. Pointing out everyone has the capacity to add promotional fluff is trivial because we care more about their propensity to add promotional fluff. – Teratix ₵ 08:24, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

  We don't exclude editors because they might not abide by policies. What matters is whether they do or do not. Wikipedia does not opeate on the basis of thoughtcrime. Thryduulf (talk) 08:33, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

  We don't exclude editors because they might not abide by policies. Yes, we do, on a regular basis:

  • We exclude unregistered and very new editors from editing protected pages, because they tend to not abide by policies when editing these pages.
  • We exclude unregistered and very new editors from creating articles in mainspace, because they tend to not abide by policies when creating pages.
  • We exclude new editors from editing certain protected pages and even entire topics (e.g. the Israeli–Palestine conflict), because they tend not to abide by policies when editing these pages.
  • We exclude non-administrators from editing the Main Page, because they tend not to abide by policies when editing this page.

  There is nothing new or contentious about Wikipedia policies and guidelines that restrict a user from editing a selected subset of pages merely because they come under a category of editors who have a propensity to shirk policy when editing these pages. That is true even when we have no direct evidence this particular user will edit according to that propensity. This isn't "thoughtcrime", it's ordinary practice. – Teratix ₵ 13:42, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

  I disagree that COI editors add the most. Go check the histories of articles on cartoons, anime, or anything to which someone could be a "fan". You will see plenty of edits by fanboys that prop the subject up to a degree that COI editors wouldn't even consider. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 11:22, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

  I didn't mean to imply that COI editors were the only kind of editor which tends to add fluff, or even the most fluff. I agree fanboys do this as well. – Teratix ₵ 13:52, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

  Fans are just one type of COI editor, those are COI edits (unarguably so if they actually do prop up the subject, meeting the standard raised above that the content also has to be bad not just the editor). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:14, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

  Fans are just one type of COI editor It's more like both fans and COI editors are types of editors who tend to be biased. – Teratix ₵ 01:37, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

The Teahouse and COI

There is a concern expressed more or less in the middle of the extended discussion above, to the effect that the conflict of interest policies are oversimplified at the Teahouse. I partly agree and partly disagree, because the usual explanation of conflict of interest policy at the Teahouse has to be oversimplified, because it is in response to a clueless editor who wants to know why their draft about their business or herself or himself was declined or rejected, or sometimes why their article about their business or self was speedily deleted. The large majority of explanations of conflict of interest at the Teahouse are not addressed to clueless new editors who want to improve the encyclopedia. They are addressed to clueless new editors who want to use Wikipedia as a web host or advertising vehicle or platform. It may be that editors in the former class, who want to improve the encyclopedia and would like to edit an article on their employer or their civic association, get a more negative impression than is necessary. But I think that it is more important to discourage clueless misguided editing in that forum than to provide subtle advice to good-faith editors. There may be cases where Teahouse hosts should change the wording of what they say about conflict of interest, but it is essential to discourage promotional editing. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:10, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

I think a narrower and better-defined COI test would help with both groups. I.e., a rule that you should not edit when you are paid or otherwise have a significant financial interest in the topic, or the content involves you or your close friends and family. The vagueness of "any external relationship can trigger a conflict of interest", and the guidance to determine through common sense whether the closeness of the relationship "becomes a concern on Wikipedia" invites shameless self-promoters to blithely press ahead, because they invariably don't see a problem. Meanwhile, conscientious good-faith editors who don't actually have a COI self-select out just to be on the safe side. In the professional off-wiki contexts I am familiar with, COI is framed as a much more concrete and objective test, identifying well-defined situations that would give rise to the appearance of bias, whether actual bias is present or not. That clarity gives everyone the confidence that conflicted-out individuals can easily recognize that fact and govern themselves accordingly.--Trystan (talk) 01:08, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

What you’ve just said, @Trystan, really resonates with me as an editor with a COI situation out on the horizon. Having guidelines just a little clearer with real-life examples to make the directives come more alive — including how the editors in each situation handled it and what the resolution was — would be so appreciated.

After all, there are serious repercussions involved here. Messing up in COI is not quite the same as, let’s say, messing up in not providing good supporting citations.

Greater COI clarity could also be of value on the other side of the spectrum from messing up, where editors might not understand that they might find themselves in a COI situation yet still be able to proceed in editing an article, even perhaps writing it from scratch.

I think a similar balance is needed in Wiki directives between making them too hefty and making them too lightweight … but isn’t that the same as what we want in Wiki articles? Augnablik (talk) 03:54, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

User page styling question

Is styling a user page like is done at User:Tevez Tam Gaming ok with our guidelines? It seems to fall under WP:SMI. I'm talking specifically about the hiding of the talk/view/edit/history links and not about the subjectively tacky choices. Gonnym (talk) 09:39, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Mm, I see an user talk link right next to the Wikipedia logo. I'd worry about the false claim to be an admin - I am not sure that the average editor knows about Special:UserRights and thus might falsely think that they are an admin. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:54, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

It looks like it's copypasted from a Wikia site (which the page makes frequent reference to). jp×g🗯️ 10:57, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

This clearly violates WP:SMI on Vector 2022 – all the UI under the header bar is hidden, and most of the remaining text is unreadable black on purple. It's so messed up I don't even know how to go about fixing it. – Joe (talk) 10:26, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Note that Joe blanked the page with a link to the WP:SMI and left an explanatory message on their user talk. Looking at the revision prior to blanking, it was all-but completely unusable on Monobook skin with no link to user talk, etc. Thryduulf (talk) 12:20, 15 May 2024 (UTC)