Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball

Minor Leaguer Info Box

Any standard on how these are to be used? Do I just use the MLB one, or the generic baseball one? leafschik1967 (talk) 19:16, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I always use the MLB one for players who haven't had a major league debut yet. Just leave the debut date/team, stats, and teams fields blank. That way, when they do make their debut, the other fields can be filled in. -NatureBoyMD (talk) 20:58, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd just use the MLB one. It's not common for minor leaguers to be notable, so no need to make a new one. Wizardman 22:08, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

There should probably be some sort of box for coaches & managers. Sparky Anderson's entry uses the retired ballplayer info box. That really isn't appropriate considering he's a hall of famer as a manager, and barely even notable as a player. Same for Tommy Lasorda. Buck Showalter never made it to the majors as a player. I improvised a box for him. Let me know what you think.--Johnny Spasm (talk) 21:39, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Seeking support for Ozzie Smith's Featured-Article nom

I thought that other WP:Baseball members would be interested to know I have just nominated Ozzie Smith as a Featured article candidate. I would appreciate suggestions for improvement and comments about the article, in addition to support for its promotion to Featured-Article status, at this page here. Thanks, Monowi (talk) 03:10, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Cat:Baseball Hall of Fame restructure proposal

I have suggested the restructuring of Category:Baseball Hall of Fame, discussion can be found here. Otto4711 (talk) 23:07, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Template:WikiProject Baseball

See Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment

Template:WikiProject Baseball need C class. but this template is protected. --Kanesue (talk) 11:24, 23 July 2008 (UTC) (My English may be inappropriate, because I am a Japanese. )

Right. I've added C-class on a couple other project templates, but for the life of me I can't figure this one out. It's made very oddly. Wizardman 11:48, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

40-man rosters

Are players on the inactive roster but still in the roster boxes supposed to be listed as playing for a team that they do not actually play for? Example: Today, Jason Jaramillo was marked as playing for the Phillies, yet he has not played an inning in the majors. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 15:16, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there's a documented standard, but typically players on the 40-man roster use {{Infobox MLB player}} and are labeled as being part of their Major League team. The discussion above: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball#Minor Leaguer Info Box talks about using the MLB infobox, but leaving the "debut date/team, stats and teams fields" blank, which I agree with. I can see where players that have never played in the majors but on on a roster might not have the infobox, but I think players that have been sent down and are still on a 40-man roster should still be listed with the major league team they play for. — X96lee15 (talk) 15:33, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I just think that it is disingenuous to say that a player is a member of the major league team when they are a minor leaguer, and especially if they haven't played in the majors yet. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 15:37, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

It's meant to indicate organization. All players that are in the minors are still a part of the team organization. If they currently played for the team - it would be indicated in the team list below. Unless you want to suggest another way of indicating when players are in the majors/minors in the infobox. JustSomeRandomGuy32 (talk) 16:06, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I'd love to see a table cell in the infobox indicating level. That way, we can put in AAA, AA, A, etc. I don't know how to code it into the infobox, but someone else might. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 16:13, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

It's definitely doable as an optional extra 2 lines under the current team/position portion... However, the template is currently locked and only admins can edit it - so there isn't much I can do... JustSomeRandomGuy32 (talk) 16:54, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I know an admin or two, let me see what I can do. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 16:56, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

The template is actually not locked, as far as I can see. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 16:58, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

FLC nomination

I've nominated Managers of the Philadelphia Phillies for WP:FL. I'd appreciate any and all support from WP:BASEBALL members. Thanks! KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 22:35, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Nomination's been open for five days now. I'd love to have some more members review it. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 15:27, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Though the first nomination failed (and disintegrated a bit), I believe that it's ready to go again, so any members who could come give input would be appreciated. Thanks! KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 19:15, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Baseball card pages

I want to direct more people to the Baseball card pages. I am hoping this would be the best place to do it. There needs to be a great deal more people discussing content and structure there. I invite anyone to take a look at the current state of the pages as well as past versions so as to get a feel of their development if you have not done so already. Recently progress has slowed as a result of difference of opinions. I want to overcome these issues and continue adding to the content of those pages. At this point only Topps is listed as far as I know along with O-Pee-Chee from the 1950s to 1995. I had hoped to add other companies as well. I designed the pages as best I could according to established Wikipedia standards. I do not expect everyone to agree with my design/format, etc. This is the nature of the encyclopedia. I know this from experience in other areas. What I do hope for is respect and consideration for the time spent contributing the content in the same way the I do for those whose work I choose to alter or add to. Anyway, the current state of the pages present several issues. I will explain my point of view. With regard to images it is my understanding that the use of the non-free should be used in an extremely limited fashion with all the necessary documentation. I would certainly like to have a photo of a card from every set but I believe this is not appropriate. Currently several of the pages have a large number of images with insufficient documentation. Another issue is inclusion of O-Pee-Chee on Topps pages. This matter has been discussed at Talk:1960s Topps. Another issue is notability. Some time ago the 1993 Topps page was deleted on grounds it was not notable. I have since expanded the page. My concern remains however in the 1970-1979 pages given that they have limited content and would benefit from a merger. The 1970s Topps page existed previously but has been reduced to a paragraph and it is my feeling that it should be restored to house the full decade's content. I hope to get some feedback from the baseball project editors. Maybe what can be decided upon here will be suitable for anyone that desires to contribute to the Baseball card pages. I have opened this discussion here as a gesture of good faith to demonstrate to the editors of said pages that I do not desire to impose my will over the project rather I have the interests of the community as my focus. Libro0 (talk) 22:56, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

• There is nothing wrong with the status quo formating. Things just need to have some more information. The images seem to be properly documented, an image from every set makes sense and is appropriate. Having the individual years for the 1970s makes sense, as there were many issues throughout the decade. Things were really not discussed Talk:1960s Topps. Your Radio Enemy (talk) 16:31, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Changing active infoboxes to retired

I was just wondering whether people agree with me that some infoboxes should be changed to retired ones, some players I think should have retired ones are Reggie Sanders who is currently a broadcaster for the D-backs, Roger Clemens has a bunch of legal troubles, and Steve Finley hasn't played since early 07--Yankees10 01:53, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

User_talk:Certified.Gangsta#Retired_or_not for full length discussion. 'nuff said--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 02:26, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh no, this is the type of crap that starts holy wars over at WP:NFL. Can we just not bring that stuff here? Don't mark anyone retired until they've been inactive for five years or something. Rickey Henderson probably never officially retired. —Wknight94 (talk) 02:32, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I see no harm in making a rule about when to change it from free agent to retired, perhaps if a guy goes a year without being signed or something.►Chris Nelson^Holla! 02:46, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah like Steve Finley, which Certified.Gangsta insists we dont, I mean come on its been a year almost, hes done, and Rogers Clemens has to many troubles for anyone to take a risk on--Yankees10 02:50, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Well the thing is, if any of them came back, it's take what, a minute to change it back to active?►Chris Nelson^Holla! 02:54, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, more like a second--Yankees10 03:07, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Just as long as we don't have another Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Jmfangio-Chrisjnelson in the making... Wizardman 02:55, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

(ec) I think Certified.Gangsta's already shot that idea down. Tommy John surgery can knock someone out for a better part of two years and, if he wasn't so great to begin with, he can languish in the minors for a couple more years. Or how about someone like Robinson Cancel who went nearly 9 years between base hits? Or Fernando Tatis (I wonder who took that high-quality pic?!) who has missed two seasons, returned, missed another, and returned again. Unless someone can find an ultra-official record - like I think you guys have for NFL - I say wait until after the second or third occurence of crying during a press conference. —Wknight94 (talk) 02:58, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I think it's silly to wait years and years down the line for a nonexistent deadline. For every Tatis, there are a hundred guys that disappeared and STAYED disappeared.►Chris Nelson^Holla! 03:05, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Chris, waiting years and years would be ridiculous--Yankees10 03:07, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I think that it would be best to discuss the players on an individual basis. Steve Finley (according to his article) has asked his agent to look for possible contracts, so I wouldn't count him out. While Clemens is in his legal mess, it seems too soon to count him done. If there is resistance to removing the active infobox, I don't see who it is hurting to leave it; but taking it to the extreme (somebody's whose been retired for at least five years and is in his mid-40's) has to be discouraged somehow. Blackngold29 03:19, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

(ec) I agree with Chris too - but I feel even more strongly that we need to wait whatever length of time is necessary to prevent any WP:LAME edit wars from breaking out. —Wknight94 (talk) 03:21, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

To Blackngold29: But what about Rickey Henderson? He's a guaranteed first-ballot HOF'er except that he refused to stop playing in little independent minor leagues. Is he even eligible now? He spent years and years playing professional baseball, basically trying to hook back on with a major league team. Is that retired? —Wknight94 (talk) 03:25, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

"Henderson finally conceded his "official retirement" on July 13, 2007: "I haven't submitted retirement papers to MLB, but I think MLB already had their papers that I was retired." Characteristically, he added, "If it was a situation where we were going to win the World Series and I was the only player that they had left, I would put on the shoes."[48] Nearly five years retired and age 49. To my knowledge his return would be the first of its kind. I personally think it's safe to leave the retired box. Blackngold29 03:31, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree. It wouldn't very far-fetched to see all of these guys calling a press conference/issue a statement or get signed to minor league deals down the road. Look at Mike Piazza, Hideo Nomo, and Rod Smith earlier today. (I couldn't help but think of Terrell Brandon a few years back). On the other hand there are guys such as Eric Milton, Kent Mercker, and Javy Lopez who have attempted to comeback after long lay-offs. According to the article, I would count out Damian Miller and Jeff Cirillo who are likely done. All the other guys have a fighting chance. I would say if they are not invited to spring training or playing ball in independent league next year, we could count them out but not before that. It should be treated in a case by case basis using common sense. Look at Latrell Sprewell, he hasn't played since '05 but is not retired and there are speculation about a potential comeback.--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 03:27, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

As for Rickey Henderson: copied from Talk:Roger Clemens "A good example is Rickey Henderson's refusal to officially retire. Rickey_Henderson#Retirement see Contrary to speculation,[44][45][46] Henderson's refusal to officially retire was not delaying his eligibility for Hall of Fame induction; the five-year waiting period is based on major league service only. Henderson will become eligible for the 2009 induction vote, provided he does not return to major league play--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 03:29, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Reply to Chris Nelson: Compare to other pro. sports, it's easier to baseball players to mount comebacks. Heck even Todd Ritchie signed a minor league contract a few weeks ago (inactive since '04). Look at Kent Mercker, Mike Lincoln. Tatis is not an anomaly, it's a trend.--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 03:37, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

It's still a minority.►Chris Nelson^Holla! 03:58, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

It's not. Look at Hideo Nomo earlier this season. Chan Ho Park spent almost all of last year unemployed. Jeff Weaver didn't get signed until fairly recently. Frank Castillo recently resurfaced in the Atlantic League. So is Shea Hillenbrand who was signed earlier this month. Jay Gibbons was signed to minor league contract just this week. Last year feel-good story Troy Percival also took almost 2 seasons off. Salomon Torres was inactive from 1998-2002 yet resurfaced in the big league in 2003 and has been there ever since. Heck even Juan Gone got a contract this year with the Cardinals, so did Javy Lopez, Edgardo Alfonzo, Brian Anderson, and Kent Mercker who made the roster out of spring training. Yankees just took a flier on Eric Milton and I just mentioned Todd Ritchie, inactive since 2004, signing with the Rockies. Former superstars like Carl Everett, Richard Hidalgo, and Alfonzo shouldn't be considered done just because they play in Japan or independent league. Jolbert Cabrera, Robinson Cancel, D.J. Carrasco, and Vladimir Nunez recently resurfaced in the big league as well. (Nunez was designated for assignment yesterday after only 2 appearances) Nelson Figueroa with the Mets earlier this year. And don't count on guys who play overseas like Lou Pote and Mickey Callaway. (the only reason I even know their names they are my two co-aces for MLB baseball 2003 lol) I can easily go on all day about successful comeback attempts. It's not rare at all.--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 04:29, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I never said it was rare, but more end up disappearing than don't. But players playing in independent leagues, foreign leagues or the minors don't count anyway. They obviously should not have retired infoboxes since they are still active somewhere. The problem with your strategy is WHEN do you give them a retired infobox? Not every player is worthy of big press conferences and huge sendoffs. Most players just fade into oblivion. Because of that, there should be a certain time - one year, two yeas, whatever - where we make the switch to the retired infobox regardless of an "official" announcement.►Chris Nelson^Holla! 04:33, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

So, my proposal how to handle the situation:

• There should be a certain amount of time, as determined here, where continued unemployment in baseball results in a changed infobox. I think 1-2 years is a good amount.
• Players currently employed in some other form (broadcaster, analyst, etc.) should have retired infoboxes. They cannot do both jobs at once, therefore if they are currently doing one they are not an active player. hey are retired, and if they unretire we simply change the infobox back.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a retired box for a guy that eventually returns. His return does not mean we were wrong about his retirement infobox, it means he has UNretired.►Chris Nelson^Holla! 04:39, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Chrisj, I like where your proposal is heading, two questions. 1 or 2 years? We should pick one, less inturpretation the better. Second, you stated above players in independent or foreign leagues shouldn't be counted as retired, however are the infoboxes for baseball in general or only the MLB. If a player plays in the Japanese league, we don't list his teams over there do we? So he would be "retired from the MLB". Blackngold29 04:45, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

you’re sadly mistaken. 4 months ago, a bunch of free agents were unsigned, causing suspicion of collusion and many fans were pissed ‘cause they’re favorite players are not signed. 4 months later...

Officially retired: ryan klesko, jeff cirillo, shawn green, Orlando palmeiro, damian miller, sandy alomar, mike piazza, bob wickman (had said last year it was his last season)

Big league roster: corey patterson, jerry hairston, paul bako, kyle lohse, ron villone, armando benitez (subsequently released)

Minor league contract: tony graffanino, chris woodward, jeff weaver, tony armas (briefly returned to the big league then sent back down), eric milton, ray king (briefly in big league this year), Recovering from surgery: freddy Garcia (recently auditioning), Rodrigo lopez, russ ortiz

Still unsigned but looking to play: Royce clayton, Kenny lofton, reggie sanders (according to the article I cited), preston Wilson (young enough)

Still unsigned and named in Mitchell Report (career death sentence?): neifi perez, barry bonds (he’s looking to play), rondell white, sammy sosa, roger clemens

Likely to disappear: Kelly stinnet (who came out of a 2-week retirement last year after a big league spot opened up), aaron sele, john Thomson (he’s still young enough though), jose mesa, jay witasick, Antonio alfonseca

My point is out of all the players listed only 6 are likely to disappear.--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 04:55, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Instead of saying they are retired from MLB simply replace it with the Japanese info box such as Ramon Ortiz and Aaron Guiel this year. There are people such as Jolbert Cabrera, Nelson Figueroa, Melvin Mora, and Tony Batista who made it back to MLB after playing in Japan or Taiwan.--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 05:02, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

That sounds fine to me, I didn't know they existed. Blackngold29 05:05, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

You can sit there listing guys that haven't disappeared all you want. Yes, I know all of them and what they're doing. So....I'm not talking about them. The ones that have disappeared are unlikely to be on the top of your head, for that very reason.►Chris Nelson^Holla! 05:24, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't want to interfere, but it seems we've got two discussions going on here. I think it would be the most productive if we came up with a good overall way to deal with these players. Are there anymore thoughts on Chrisj's proposal? Blackngold29 05:31, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Chris, I sense you are getting emotional due to your obsession with the retire player box. If you haven’t noticed, all the players I listed above are the ones who aren’t signed in mid-march which means all the other players are already signed and on a roster. My point is that less than five players will disappear without some sort of formal acknowledgement in a year.--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 05:39, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I say wait a year to change it, unless they announce there retirement, I also agree with Chris in that if a player is doing broadcasting or something, then they should have it changed, and my main point is that you can always change it back if they comes out of retirement or signs with a team--Yankees10 05:42, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

You listed a bunch of players who haven't disappeared, and then said "Hey, see, players don't disappear." That's like be saying, "Look at Dan Marino, Peyton Manning, Brett Favre. All quarterbacks are good because the ones I just listed are!" You're simply listing players that HAVEN'T disappeared to prove your point. I'm sure I could go and find other players that have, but that's a more difficult task. They're inherently harder to remember because they've disappeared. Also, I just do not care enough to put that amount of research in it. Point is, your argument is one-sided because you're only bringing up examples that fit your point. Anyone can do that.►Chris Nelson^Holla! 05:53, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Please take a deep breath and calm down. My point remains. I listed every single free agent without a team as of March 15, 2008. None of them actually disappeared. They found a team, remained free agent, or officially retired. No one “disappears”. All of them are listed on my list above. I didn’t omit anyone.--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 06:53, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

If we're getting hung up on the word "retired", just rename the template to Template:Infobox MLB Inactive. —Wknight94 (talk) 11:15, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I concur with Wknight94. Inactive makes it much easier. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 16:02, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

If you rename it "Inactive" and keep the same format, we'll just have to replace it if they comeback anyway. I don't see how it changes anything. Blackngold29 23:13, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

But Certified.Gangsta seems to be bothered mostly by the word "retired" - maybe the permanence of the word? To simply say someone is inactive does not imply that the status is permanent. —Wknight94 (talk) 02:51, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Maybe he hasn't, but I hear about people "coming out of retirement" all the time. I don't think it's permanent at all. Blackngold29 02:56, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Well then I go back to my original argument - why are we even bothering to discuss this ultra-trivial issue? —Wknight94 (talk) 02:59, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I haven't a clue. From this discussion I think that if a debate develops over anyone in the future then it should be posted here and everybody can weigh in on it. I don't really think it happens often enough to have a lengthy discussion over criteria. Blackngold29 03:04, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Too late - it's already been had!  :) —Wknight94 (talk) 03:30, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Here's the real question. Why do we need 2 separate infoboxes? We can just have one that takes care of all situations... They're already very similar anyways... and until a player files his retirement papers with the league - he's a free agent... and can be indicated as such... very simple... (or you can change free agent to inactive after some time.. if you so chose to do.)JustSomeRandomGuy32 (talk) 03:36, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

That's also a good question. I don't know. —Wknight94 (talk) 03:37, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I can't say I'd be opposed to making one infobox, but if we do we're gonna have to replace every single player's article. If somebody could come up with a good design, I think we could explore the option further. Blackngold29 04:21, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd have to check but, with some luck, we might be able to make a template that would handle both, and either make one redirect to the other or make one transclude the other. —Wknight94 (talk) 04:28, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Having one infobox for players, be they retired or not, is a great idea. I especially like the idea of having a "status" element included in the box, where you list "active", "retired," "free agent," or whatever. I'd love to see this become a reality. Monowi (talk) 09:15, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree, I think it will work out for the better. It's a lot easier than changing boxes when people retire, and it will keep every player's box looking the same, rather than the two different designs we use now. —Borgarde^talk 11:34, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I fear that if we have a "status" we'll end up having the same conversation in the future. The new "ultra player infobox" should eliminate this discussion, not leave it open. If we list a player's teams and years people should be able to infer that information on their own. Blackngold29 16:49, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

That's even better yet. I suppose there could be a free-text notes area where someone could say that the person "announced their retirement" or something. —Wknight94 (talk) 19:09, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I would think if somebody officially annouces their retirement it should be added to the article's prose. Blackngold29 19:15, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

CPOY source?

I've been trying to build up New York Yankees seasons for a future FLC run, but have come across a problem. Dock Ellis won the Major League Baseball Comeback Player of the Year Award in 1976, back when The Sporting News gave it out. However, I can't find a good source for this. The only place I've seen this online beside here is Baseball LibraryAlmanac, but there have been reliability concerns regarding that site. None of my baseball books have a list of winners either. If anyone here can find a reliable web site or printed source that could be used to cite this fact, I would really appreciate it. Thanks for any help. Giants2008 (17-14) 02:22, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I have access to the Sporting News archives, so I can dig up the appropriate issues and slap in a cite news tag no problem. Wizardman 02:36, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Giants2008, If you go to Paper of Record you can search the Sporting news archives. BTW the opening line of the article states: "This is a list of seasons completed by the New York Yankees baseball club" and yet 2008 is included. Obviously 2008 has not been completed. Either it needs to be removed or the opening line needs to be reworded. Kinston eagle (talk) 12:05, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! I made a correction above after getting Baseball Almanac and Baseball Library confused. The lead is getting a full rewrite after I finish citing the article. Giants2008 (17-14) 14:09, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

After seeing that registration is required for Paper of Record, I took one more look around the Internet and found a Baseball Library page to use. In case there are any problems with that, the award is also mentioned on his Retrosheet page. Thanks again for the help though. Giants2008 (17-14) 16:08, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Categories for minor league players

Does a player in the minor leagues belong in the category of his major league club if he is not or has not been a part of the 40-nan roster? See Brandon Roberts, for example. Should he be in the Twins' category? Also, could a few people in the project look at the articles of Template:Fort Myers Miracle roster? Another user has created articles on basically all the players on this Advanced A club and a lot of the players have yet to reach notability guidelines and the articles have a bunch of other issues (like the see alsos, the categories, the roster in the articles, and the references). Thanks, Metros (talk) 13:52, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

To your first question, I would say no, they shouldn't be in the major league team's category. Esp. since these minor league categories are popping up all over. To your second question, I can take a look eventually. Is it the same user every time? —Wknight94 (talk) 16:21, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it's User:Johnny Spasm who is creating these articles. I've left a few notes on his talk page explaining a few of these issues. Metros (talk) 16:27, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, that's so blatant that I'm going to put my bad guy hat on and AFD the whole lot of them. I'm up to 26 and may have 30 by the time I'm done. I'll give relevant here when I'm ready. —Wknight94 (talk) 19:58, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree they shouldn't be in the MLB team category. At the very least, they should have been on the 40-man roster to be in the category; I'd really prefer that they had played in at least one game for the team to be in the category.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 20:13, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay, there are 33 articles now listed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fort Myers Miracles players. Another couple related to the same minor league team are also listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Baseball. —Wknight94 (talk) 20:57, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

As I mentioned in the AfD debate. It would be impossible for someone to give a blanket Keep or Delete vote on all these players as some meet criteria and some don't. If you want all these players deleted, the fairest thing to do would be to put them each up individually so that they can each stand on their own merits. Kinston eagle (talk) 21:22, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Let's keep discussion there please. If a consensus develops to split the AFD up, I'm fine with doing so but I'd really prefer not to go the 33 separate AFDs route without a damn good reason. —Wknight94 (talk) 00:12, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I wrote the Miracle entries that were deleted by Wizardman (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fort Myers Miracles players). I told him, and I'll repeat it here, that I don't believe that he actually gave any consideration to the actual debate that occurred and just did whatever he felt like. I believe that his status as an administrator should be considered just as strongly as any guideline debates.

That said, I don't view major league experience as a reasonable guideline for Wikipedia entry. David Price is widely considered the top prospect in the minor leagues right now. I certainly consider him more note worthy than some late season call up in 1997. Likewise, as a New York Mets fan, I was hearing about Darryl Strawberry, Greg Jeffries and Shawn Abner long before any of them made their major league debuts. And what about Drew Henson?

The Miracle team I wrote entries on captured the Florida State League first half Western Division title, and tied a franchise record for wins in the process. Considering that the Minnesota Twins have one of the most respected farm systems in baseball, that says a lot. Don't be surprised if you see half these guys in the majors within the next couple of seasons.

Granted, half of them won't make it. I think the entries should all be restored, and as players are released and see their professional careers fizzle, then they should INDIVIDUALLY be deleted. Deleting all the entries for an entire minor league team is lunacy-- especially when that team was as impressive as the 2008 Fort Myers Miracle.--Johnny Spasm (talk) 22:59, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Jarrod Washburn

What happened to the Jarrod Washburn article? It used to be a lot longer, and now it's 2 little paragraphs... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.60.31.51 (talk) 02:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

It was chopped - more than once - per WP:BLP concerns. And rightfully so. Everything needs to be carefully sourced in biographies of living people, especially criticism. —Wknight94 (talk) 02:13, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Ideas for improving John McGraw

I'm cross-posting this from Talk:John McGraw. I'm going to try to make this into a Featured Article, and the more eyes the better. The new Featured Article Collaboration Center has also accepted my nomination, and will be working on this article as well.

• Expand the subsections on his personal life after age 17, if sources can be found for doing so, especially regarding his home life, and the tragic death of his young wife in 1899.
• Expand the subsections for his baseball career in the majors and as a manager. This should be simple enough to do, as there is no lack of sources.
• Expand the "Posthumous honors" section, if possible. I'm sure he has parks, fields, and the like named after him that we could mention, if appropriate.
• Find more free images for use in the article. It would be a coup if we could find a non-baseball image of him with one of his two wives for the "Personal life" section.
• More sources, more sources, more sources! :)
• Copyediting never hurts. I'm usually pretty good with grammar, but my forte is writing prettily and well, not doing the grind of copyediting.

Other ideas for improvement? S. Dean Jameson 15:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

There's no improving John McGraw. He was a rough-hewn character, and will always remain that way. :) I don't know how many books have been written about McGraw. I'm thinking there was one called McGraw of the Giants, decades ago. Don't know if I have that one. SABR might have some interesting info about this colorful guy. I think I read somewhere, maybe there or maybe in S.I., that McGraw and Mathewson got along well, despite their different demeanors, because they were both highly intelligent and had a similar world view. McGraw fell into Cobb's trap of deriding the power game instead of embracing it. I've often wondered about McGraw and his tendency to play suspicious characters like Hal Chase and Heinie Zimmerman. Meanwhile, there's the theory that he might have tried to bribe the umpire before the 1908 "playoff" game with the Cubs. I've never heard of any parks being named for McGraw. He was a crusty character and not what I'd call well-loved. I recall reading some comments about him in The Glory of Their Times, how he hated being called "Mugsy"... and how, despite his apparently threatening demeanor, in at least one player's opinion it was all bluff: "He couldn't 'lick' a stamp!" Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 15:20, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• I've come to understand a lot more about why McGraw was such a sunuvabitch. In researching him, he had a ton of tragedy in his life. By the time he was 26 years old, he had lost his mother, three siblings, and his young wife. And his second wife Blanche said that he was really an old softy at heart. The man lived an interesting and full life, that's for sure, and that's definitely what drew me to this article. S. Dean Jameson 16:08, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Complex individuals make interesting subjects. Lou Gehrig may have been the better role model, but Babe Ruth was seemingly a lot more interesting. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 16:26, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Major Leauge Baseball Production

As an employee of Major League Baseball production I would like to see a page dedicated to the company.

Major League Baseball Productions is the award-winning television and video production division of Major League Baseball. With direct access to the game and its players, Major League Baseball Production produces original programming for audiences worldwide through DVDs, commercials and other specialty programming. Major League Baseball Productions is also the producer of the longest running sports anthology series in American television broadcast history, “This Week in Baseball.” The Major League Baseball productions library currently houses more than 100,000 hours of material including footage that dates back 100 years. Baseballfan08 (talk) 15:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Israel Baseball League

If someone with more knowledge of this league direct your eyes to the article, you will notice it is out of date. Apparently the league is no more, I don't know much about this league. —Borgarde^talk 04:21, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

List of Major League Baseball players

I've created a discussion here about whether we should include all players, and not only players that have articles. Discussion is welcome. —Borgarde^talk 12:53, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Cy Young

Hi, I've nominated Cy Young for GA. It's currently on hold, and I've done all but two requests for a quick skimming of it. The unfortunate thing is I'm going on a wikibreak for a week and might not get to all of them. I know Baseball Bugs has helped with this, but since it's of top importance in WP: Baseball, would somebody be willing to give me a hand there?--LAAFan 15:02, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

A guy slapped a bunch of fact tags on items that can easily be discerned from the baseball-reference stats and other places. I provided some further info on that, but at this point he needs to explain himself, which he won't do, only complaining about my attitude. So, good luck with it. :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 15:05, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll jump on board in your place. Anyone else's help would be appreciated too. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 15:06, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

PNC Park peer review

I got PNC Park up to a GA a few months ago and thought I would now revisit the article to make an FA push. If you have any comments at all, about anything please do not hesitate to add them to the peer review page. Like I said, I'm going for a star here, so beat the snot out of it! Hopefully we can make it the first major leage ballpark FA. Thank you! Blackngold29 02:20, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

FAC: Nashville Sounds

I have nominated Nashville Sounds to become a Featured Article. I would appreciate support and/or constructive criticism from members of the project. You may view the nomination here. -NatureBoyMD (talk) 16:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Wow. Those FAC reviewers are rough. Kinston eagle (talk) 19:22, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

And you wonder why I only review FLCs... KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 19:27, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

UPDATE: After reviewing the comments made by other editors, I have endeavored to correct the raised issues. I feel that all problems have been sufficiently corrected. Feel free to take another look at it. Here is the nomination. -NatureBoyMD (talk) 16:24, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

New Box

I had an idea to improve the team pages for each season. I was wondering if it would be too much to add a box with three listings in it. One, all players who started on the team. Two all players on current roster, and three all players who came and went during the year. As today is trade deadline day I have been looking at teams to see who was coming and going throughout the year. It would be nice to see a list made for me on the pages so I don't have to read a recap of the entire season just to see what players were there this particular season.

So a coming and going box separate from the monthly summeries... What do you think? NeuGye (talk) 16:13, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Some of the pages have statistics at the bottom (and all should, though many are not complete); this should tell you what you are looking for. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 16:15, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

After reading your comment I checked every single 2008 page for MLB teams. None had what I was talking about. Two had a transaction section in official form. Some had postseason moves. Some had draft picks. I was looking for a simple coming and going box. We have the current roster in the article. How did the team get to that? I was seeking a box with everyone who was on the team that year. If its too much we can ignore the farm system moves.

For example:

Player	Date	Coming/Going	Method
Player X	4-31-08	Going	Traded to the Mets
Player Y	6-31-08	Going	Released
Player Z	7-32-08	Coming	Aquired in trade from Yankees
Player ~	9-31-08	Coming	Signed Free Agent

A box to tell us simply who was on the team. Without having to read monthly recaps. Without the entire transaction history. Just simply all players (except farms if prefered) on the team that year. What do you think? NeuGye (talk) 18:44, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

What about the hockey style? Blackngold29 18:48, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Thats on the right track. Maybe something cleaner? I was looking particularly for in season moves not off season. Like all the trades. Sexson released from Seattle. Yankees signing Sexson. A simple box to let readers know how we got from the starting roster to the current roster in a particular season (focus on current season). NeuGye (talk) 18:54, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

The in-season moves are no different, they're just added to the same chart. It would be nice to be able to merge them all into a single chart though. Blackngold29 03:33, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Anyone who wishes to see what I am talking about could visit my sandbox [1]. It is for the Pittsburgh Pirates and is neither complete or accurate. Just an idea to run with. NeuGye (talk) 03:37, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think you need the second one, the games played are covered in the Statistics section. And I'm not so sure about the wording of "Coming/Going" but overall you're on the right track. Blackngold29 03:42, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I think my incomplete boxes confused you. The second box is for different people (Even though I kept the same names in my example). It was my attempt to show what minor leaguers had been going back and forth. Instead of muddying up the regular box with all the call ups and send downs, we could have a separate box for how many games they were in altogether. I would hate to have the main box reflecting everytime Brian Bixler or Steve Pearce got called up or sent down. So one neat box to keep track of how much time they spent on the team. That way the main box is moves for the entire organization while the second is interorg moves. Feel free to give me another idea instead.

As far as the heading names, they can all change for all I care. I simply want something that will reflect the changing team memebers without having to get down and dirty in the information. NeuGye (talk) 03:52, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Help me prove The Baseball Cube is a reliable source

I have run into a problem with the Nashville Sounds FAC. I need to prove that The Baseball Cube is a reliable source. Can anyone show me a reliable independent source that testifies to the reliability of their data? -NatureBoyMD (talk) 16:03, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

On the contrary, this is copied from my comment at an open AFD: In my scan through 2000 single-A all-stars, I found the 2000 Midwest League all-stars which includes a pitcher named Chris Dilullo. But you click on the Chris Dilullo link and you get that he played at the University of Delaware in 2007 and 2008. Huh?! How was he a 2000 single-A all-star but then in college in 2007 and 2008?! Baseball-reference's search shows no Chris Dilullo and its minor league section doesn't show all-stars apparently so I clicked on every team individually - no Chris Dilullo. A long time ago, I sent an e-mail to the maintainer of BaseballCube asking what his source was and I got no response. My hunch is that the site is 95% accurate, but that's just a hunch, and that is not 100%. And if the other 5% include completely fabricated names - as opposed to small mathematical errors - that's pretty serious. —Wknight94 (talk) 16:12, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I checked the Sporting News Baseball Guide for 2001. They list all players in the Midwest League for 2000. There is no Chris Dilullo listed. The closest to it alphabetically is a David Dellucci. If Baseball Cube has either typos or fake names, that's trouble - in fact it would just about wrap it up for that site, especially if they won't respond to queries. You might want to propose withdrawing them as a valid source. This is a little off the track, but I had a brief but interesting chat with a guy at the Elias Sports Bureau the other day, in connection with whether they sell their record book in stores (they don't) and the question of the 1994 season (he told me 1994 does not break the Braves' division titles streak). I asked him about Cobb's 1910 season and 4,191 vs. 4,189. He said there are lots more mistakes than just that, in the history of baseball's stats, and until someone decides to do a comprehensive and official review of everyone's stats, MLB will continue to report 4,191 as the official figure. The reason I bring this up is that online sites that claim to have the "right" stats and put down MLB's stats are also subject to errors, and are thus just as shaky a source as they claim MLB to be. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 16:30, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Yikes, I was afraid of that. I've noticed before that some players have one profile for their minor league stats and another for majors. In that case, can anyone point me to a reliable indepednent source for pre-1992 (especially 1986-1991) minor league stats. I'm not interested in player stats, only team standings/records. -NatureBoyMD (talk) 16:37, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

From what I'm being told, old copies of Baseball America have such information. —Wknight94 (talk) 17:25, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Individual years of the Sporting News guides would have it, although finding them could be a different story. Baseball America started publishing an Almanac a few years ago that effectively serves as a replacement for the now-defunct Sporting News guides. The Almanac includes minor league standings. I would think the minor league pages would have standings for past years, but maybe not. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 18:17, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

SABR has a minor league database here. BRMo (talk) 18:15, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Excellent! And no Chris Dilullo to be found. David Dellucci is in there, though, so they've apparently got the 2000 Midwest League covered. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 18:19, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Just wanted to add my opinion that TBC is NOT a reliable source. I use it all the time, and while it's a good resource for casual investigation, there are numerous errors. Not just transcription errors (which can occur anyone), but transpositions of seasons from one players' career into the career of a different player with a similar name. Caveat emptor when using it, and if you need to source minor league numbers, you'd do better to go with one of the end-of-season annuals discussed above. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 15:26, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Minor league teams under Major league team category

Has there been any discussion about, or is there any objection to, placing minor league affiliates of Major League teams under the category for the MLB team? For example, I'd like to place the article Las Vegas 51s under Category:Los Angeles Dodgers. I realized there is some maintanence involved as affiliates change and move, but I'd like to see all teams' current affiliations under the big league club's category. I'd like to hear other's thoughts and opinions because possibly taking on such a task. Thanks. --Wolfer68 (talk) 01:46, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be a good idea in the absence of a separate category for each MLB team's affiliates (which some may or may not feel the need for -- I'm undecided). Unless/until those new categories are created, I would support this suggestion. WAMCO1993 (talk) 22:19, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Minor league players' AFDs closed. My proposal on disputed notability guideline.

It's clear that some discussion needs to happen regarding the recent AFDs of minor league players, one of which resulted in the deletion of over 30 articles. As I've stated, I think there is a clear dividing line between major league players and minor league players. A major league player who played a single game in 1932 has been thoroughly researched with full name and dates of birth and death, etc. clearly established. Minor league players who played for 15 years at the AAA level in the 1960s, meanwhile, disappear into obscurity. It's just a fact. If I had my druthers, I might even move the line higher and group single-game players into one list article a la List of one-gamers in the National Hockey League.

Nowadays, certain periodicals and web sites devote large amounts of time in reporting on minor league players, but many of them are specialized to that task and, even then, they may have a single article devoted to reporting on the "farm" in general, with little emphasis paid to any particular player. But, as one user pointed out, it is much easier to find minor league information on players while they are in the minors, rather than wait until they are in the majors. But, per WP:CRYSTAL and WP:NTEMP, we are not supposed to be creating articles with the expectation that the subject will one day become notable.

I have a proposal. How about we create a list article called List of baseball prospects and collect all information on likely future major leaguers there. When the player gets to the major leagues, the information can be split from the list into its own article. Per WP:NNC, this a perfectly acceptable use of content. Even I can agree that a list of baseball prospects is a noteworthy list, it's just that each individual player is not notable enough for a separate article at this point. This would allow us to report on and collect information for players while they are in the minors, while not clogging up the baseball space with players that the general community is unlikely to ever hear of or care about.

Thoughts? Opinions? This only covers part of the guideline at WP:WPBB#Players, which I find to be flawed and have marked as disputed. I have not been impressed with the discussions that gave rise to the guideline. I was not made aware of the discussion and many folks I see around here on a regular basis were also absent. The overall proposal, Wikipedia:Notability (sports), where the discussion occurred failed to gain consensus but an hour-long discussion here resulted in the guideline being rushed into place anyway. Enough people unfamiliar with the guideline and subject came to the AFDs and voted delete to make me continue pushing this issue. We are clearly not in tune with the community on this subject. —Wknight94 (talk) 17:10, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

• I disagree with the idea that we should go back to where only major leaguers were notable... Plenty of minor leaguers these days get lots of press coverage and the Futures Game and AAA All-Star games are broadcast nationally. Now, After the recent group of AFD discussions, I'd probably agree to moving the bar up a bit to AA-AAA All-Star games instead of Single-A or rookie league all-stars... but your proposal would result in the deletion of hundreds of worthwhile articles. Spanneraol (talk) 17:23, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

"Hundreds"?! Are they categorized somehow? That's another problem with the current situation - I haven't been able to even locate players who are in the minors but not yet in the majors. I looked through one minor league category and found it was chock full of major league players. Wouldn't it be nice to have them all in one big list article? —Wknight94 (talk) 17:40, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Category:Minor league baseball players[2] is inconsistently used, but it does have a number of current players who have only played in the minors. Some players listed are retired, and Clayton Kershaw probably doesn't belong now. WAMCO1993 (talk) 23:51, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

• I think this is unnecessary instruction creep. If there is a sufficient amount of information to make an article, then thats fine. If not, then don't. A players status as "prospect" is debatable. Was Ryan Ludwick a prospect last year? Is Brad Eldred still a prospect? At what age does a player lose their prospect status? "Prospect" isn't a well-defined term, so I think a list is problematic. Wickethewok (talk) 18:07, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

"Press coverage", otherwise known as "hype", does not make a player "prospect" notable. Actually getting into the big leagues, or doing something extraordinary at the minor league level, would do so. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 18:52, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm gonna agree with Bugs on this one, unless he has an extremely large amount of coverage due to some talent of biblical proportions at an early age. Although it would be interesting to make a list of One game in the majors ballplayers; is there one already? Blackngold29 19:04, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

"clogging up the baseball space"? WTF is that supposed to mean? Is Wikipedia only alloting a certain amount of "space" for baseball articles now? If you don't like the articles on minor league players, then don't read them. It ain't using up any space from any of your precious major league articles. They can coexist just fine and have for quite some time now. I think elitists such as yourself should branch off and form a new Wikiproject called Wikiproject:Major League Baseball since that's all y'all care about. Kinston eagle (talk) 22:00, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

So, if some guy plays 1 game for the Kinston Indians and therefore merits an article, then retires to work on his uncle's tobacco farm and never plays ball again, does the article stay? If not, who's going to delete it? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 00:13, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Right, there's no "alloted baseball space", but that doesn't mean that the baseball coverage is unlimited either. That's why there are Notability guidelines. If you start letting in all minor leaguers, next it'll be "This kid's a really good Pony player", then down on the line and kid who has hit a baseball off a tee will have their own article. We should concentrate effort on improving the articles that we already have, there are thousands of excellent Major leaguers who deserve better articles than they have; not starting new articles about every Minor-League Bob. Blackngold29 00:40, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

To Wickethewok, how is my proposal instruction creep? If the person has played in the majors, they get their own article, if not, they go in the list of prospects. That's it. If the list name is inappropriate, propose something else. List of minor league prospects? List of current minor league baseball players? Additionally, your notion of "sufficient amount of information to make an article" does not equate to notability. Local newspapers frequently run entire news stories about local people who have overcome adversity or done something good in the community - and a single news story is more of a source than many of the articles on Wikipedia. We would wind up with thousands of articles about everyone who ever saved a cat from a tree, so to speak. Such reasoning is why the WP:NOT#NEWS policy is in place and why the WP:NOTNEWS essay was written.

To Spanneraol, you hit on an interesting point - it's called "The Futures Game"! But we don't include content on people based on their "future" notability per the WP:CRYSTAL policy. I also wonder where you're seeing the nationally-televised minor league games. ESPN? It seems to me that ESPN also broadcasts championship college lacrosse games and such - does that mean every member of those games should get an article?

To Kinston Eagle, the fuck that is supposed to mean is that I already hear, now and then, people complaining about trivial one-game players on no-name teams. It makes me think we're already pushing the limit on WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Don't you think it would be a bit silly to have a disambiguation page for a common name looking like:

• Jack Smith, 1990s AA left-handed pitcher
• Jack Smith, 1980s AA right-handed pitcher
• Jack Smith, 1990s AA right-handed pitcher
• Jack Smith, 1990s AAA outfielder
• Jack Smith, 1990s AAA left-handed outfielder
• etc., etc.

That's the type of thing that WP:N and WP:INDISCRIMINATE are supposed to cure. Limit the scope to people that are most likely to be read. I can't say it much better than Blackngold29 did. I've often asked the question: why are we even writing articles about A-level minor league players when there are so many all-time major league roster pages flooded with red links? —Wknight94 (talk) 02:35, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

• I think there's a strong case to be made that anyone, at least in the modern era, who made it all the way to AAA is notable in some fashion (appeared in All-Star games, did something amazing in college ball, played in the Olympics, spent time on a 40-man roster). For my part, I'm fascinated by minor league ball and would rather write about that than the pros. Below AAA I would argue that there's no presumption to notability. Mackensen (talk) 03:04, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
  • You would rather write about minor league ball than the pros? The minor leaguers are pros. And the colleges are another area you could extend this ever-expanding oil slick into. But even AAA is not the majors. If a guy plays 10 years in AAA and never makes the majors in some way or another, he's not likely notable. Not that a guy would play 10 years in AAA, because it doesn't work that way anymore. But until they make the majors, they are not in the majors, and the majors are what count - they are the cream of baseball. The rest are only "potential cream", which is a huge difference. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 03:31, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
    • Yes, forgive, by pros I meant majors. Mackensen (talk) 12:27, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, Mackensen. Would you say you'd accept anyone with even a single game at the AAA level? There are zillions of folks who poked their heads up into the AAA level only to be Whac-A-Moled back to AA. Just want to make sure you are represented accurately. Thanks. —Wknight94 (talk) 03:37, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Not quite. My argument is that there's presumptive notability for people who make it to AAA--anyone who got that far has probably done something noteworthy. The subjunctive is important here--one game at AAA (say an end-of-season promotion) isn't impressive. I'd want to investigate the individual circumstances. In writing about people in the Tigers' AAA organization I run across all kinds--guys who played for an Olympic team, a guy who struck out 21 people in a high school game--these things aren't immediately apparent but they're important in establishing notability. As an aside, given the deplorable state of Detroit's bullpen, they have an excellent chance of making it to the pros right now. I'd say anyone who played a full season at AAA is worth consideration. In my experience, you can find multiple reliable sources which discuss such players. Whether an article is possible is another matter. Mackensen (talk) 12:27, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

So you're going more for notability on an individual basis rather than a blanket declaration in a guideline like we currently have. I can get behind that, but I usually find I'm in the minority on that issue. People like guidelines so they can go to AFD and quickly say, "Keep. Meets the guideline." with as little thought as possible. I can see a tremendous number of AFDs opening without some guideline since that will be the only place where people can argue, "They were named a AA All-star so of course they're notable!" - and they will argue it - over and over and over, even if seven consecutive AFDs result in delete... —Wknight94 (talk) 13:33, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Allowing minor leaguers to be considered "notable" is a huge can of worms. The reality is that unless you make the big leagues, you're nothing as a pro baseball player, no matter how proud your friends and relatives are. AAA is not the big leagues, and realistically, the national media seldom pay any attention to AAA unless something bizarre happens. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 13:37, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Thats a matter of opinion. Top minor leaguers do get attention.. Top draft picks get notability.. players who participate in the Futures Game get press coverage... the AAA All-Star game as I noted above is broadcast nationally on ESPN, some of these players are on the 40-man roster of the Major League clubs.. and as such get lots of press coverage in those markets... etc.. And what about players who play in the WBC or the Olympics or in the Japanese leagues.? Many of these guys have not made the majors yet... yet do you think they aren't notable? WP:BIO's only criteria is that the person play "professional sports." The minor leagues are definitely professional and all the players in the high minors receive enough national coverage to pass the reliable sources criteria. There is no need here to take a step backwards and delete all of these worthwhile articles simply because WKnight doesn't like minor leaguers and doesn't want to read about them. Spanneraol (talk) 14:14, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

A problem with allowing lots of minor leaguers in as being notable as it smacks of recentism. There's plenty of cites out now that provide research for minor leaguers, yet it's very difficult if not impossible to find info on a guy who played AAA for 6 years in the 50s. If newspapers start covering the rookie league heavily are they going to be notable too? Wizardman 14:22, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Then you have to throw it open to every professional baseball player, because until they make the big leagues, there's no way to know if their attendant hype will bear fruit. Have fun writing thousands more articles. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:24, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Exactly my point, that's why minor leaguers need to be on a limited basis. Wizardman 14:27, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Coming from WP:HOCKEY (where I wrote the project's notability criteria myself, come to that), you would find a great deal of resistance elsewhere to the concept that minor leagues are prima facie nonnotable, as well as from the soccer folks, where subnational leagues are abundant and longstanding, and from the basketball and football folks, where they'd laugh themselves hoarse at the concept that celebrated college players were automatically non-notable. My advice to WKnight is to hit up WP:BIO / WP:ATHLETE and try to swing consensus around to the concept that minor leaguers are non-notable. That being said, while people are talking about how awful it would be for Soandso AAA-scrub in 1950 to have an article, the bald fact is that if that fellow played today, he'd be in the majors.

To meet Wizardman's comments, in point of fact, it's quite easy to find information on a player who played AAA for six years in the 1950s, as it is in other sports; the Web is a wonderful place. As far as BB goes, well, Wikipedia is not paper. You might not be interested in thousands of articles about obscure species of plants, but plainly there are folks out there who are and who are willing to write them. No one is going to force you to write any articles about AAA players.  RGTraynor  14:29, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Nor do I intend to. The burden is yours. However, as Wknight94 pointed out, there are countless stubs of actual major leaguers that need work, and they should take precedence over anyone who is in the minors, because until they make the majors in some capacity, they're not important players. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:36, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

And like any other area of Wikipedia, those who want to work on said stubs can, and those who don't won't. In any event, your POV that minor league players are "not important" is not, so far, shared by WP:BIO.  RGTraynor  14:41, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

That's beside the point. The existence of Task A does not preclude working on Task B, if Task B is what I'd rather work on. Nor should guidelines be shaped in such a manner as to coerce people to work on one rather than the other. The question is, rather, whether one can establish notability for X minor leaguer. I find this slippery slope unconvincing; establishing individual notability does not confer automatic notability for an entire class of players. Mackensen (talk) 14:42, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

• By way of contrast, here is WP:HOCKEY's notability criteria:

Ice hockey players shall be considered notable for purposes of the hockey project's scope if they fulfill one or more of the following and if they otherwise fulfill the requirements of WP:V:

• Played one or more games in the National Hockey League, the Elitserien, the SM-liiga, the Russian Super League or other such top national professional league;
• Played one or more games in a defunct league generally considered to have been a "major" professional league, such as the World Hockey Association, the National Hockey Association, the Czechoslovak Extraliga, the Pacific Coast Hockey Association and suchlike;
• Played one or more games in an amateur league considered, through lack of a professional league, the highest level of competition extant, such as the 19th century Amateur Hockey Association or the Soviet League;
• Played five or more seasons, and at least 100 games, in a fully professional minor league such as the American Hockey League, the International Hockey League, the ECHL, the Mestis, the HockeyAllsvenskan or other such league;
• Achieved preeminent honors (all-time top ten career scorer, league or playoff MVP, first team all-star, All-American) in a lower minor league such as the Central Hockey League or the United Hockey League, in a major junior league such as the Ontario Hockey Association or the Western Hockey League or in a major collegiate hockey league;
• Was a first-round draft pick in the NHL Entry Draft;
• Played on a national Olympic team; or
• Are Honoured Members of the Hockey Hall of Fame.  RGTraynor  14:43, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

That's a pretty good approach, to weed it down to those who've actually done something. Watch ESPN's Baseball Tonight sometime and notice how many minutes are devoted to minor leaguers. Not many. Also, how many career minor leaguers are in the Hall of Fame? None that I know of. The minors do get some airplay, like when there's good footage of a brawl. Sorry, but if they never make The Show, then they're just another ballplayer, no different than if they stopped playing in junior high school or Little League - unless they do something exceptional, like hitting 72 home runs one season. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:49, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm no more keen than you'd be on the concept of a kid who played a single inning for the Pittsfield Mets in 1991 getting an article. But it's a bit of a straw man argument to suggest that baseball players who aren't featured on TV or are in the Hall of Fame are thereby automatically nonnotable.  RGTraynor  14:55, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

What I'm saying is that way too much significance is being pushed for minor leaguers. Until they get to the bigs, they really haven't done anything yet. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 15:00, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

And when you say that, you're wrong. They've played in front of thousands of people, and their performances have been shared with thousands more via radio, TV, print media, and the internet. Just because you, personally, are not interested in something, doesn't mean that no people, anywhere, are interested in that same thing. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 15:02, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I've seen epsisodes of "Baseball Tonight" that don't show any clips from games between two small-market teams, like the Pirates and the Royals. Are those two teams also, then, non-notable, by your standard? Never mind that prospects receive coverage on other ESPN programs (like their broadcast of the Futures Game), or that there are many better sources than a TV program for the purposes of citing and determining notability... -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 15:02, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Heck, the Buffalo Bisons have outdrawn major league teams some years.  RGTraynor  15:39, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

My $0.02: Trying to make a list of "minor league prospects" is a ridiculously unworkable notion. It'd be frickin' huge. There's nothing wrong with creating individual articles for minor league players who have proven themselves notable AS minor league players - by winning awards, setting recrods, etc. There's no shortage of published material available on them, so that objection's right out the window. Even if you wanted to write about a significant prospect from the 1920s, you could probably come up with coverage from the back issues of The Sporting News (a.k.a. the "Bible of Baseball)... and since the full archives of TSN are available in a free, searchable online archive at paperofrecord.com, you probably wouldn't even have to drive to the library.

Our current guideline was formulated after a lot of thought and discussion. It's actually MORE restrictive than the standards at WP:BIO, which simply call for widespread media coverage. There's no reason to carve out large swaths of material that meet current community standards and retroactively declare them out of bounds. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 15:02, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Quite aside from that baseball's relatively unique in that almost without exception, every single player came up through the minors and rookie leagues. Even as I type, there are hundreds of minor league ball players who are certainly going to reach the Show at some point.  RGTraynor  15:08, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

That's part of the point I was trying to make. If you were to make a list of all legitimate ML prospects at all levels of the minors (i.e. guys with at least, let's say, a 10% chance of making the majors at some point in their careers), you're probably talking about 50-60 players in each of the 30 franchises. Unless you restrict it purely to names, which would be dumb, that's an enormous page. And you're going to have endless arguments and counter-arguments as to whether this fringy guy is, or is not, a prospect. Better to have a uniform set of guidelines for individual articles, so that people can find what they're looking for, and so it's easier to sort the sheep from the goats. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 15:18, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I have a rather trivial edit history so I realize my opinion probably doesn’t carry much weight, but my preference would be to keep the current guideline of having spent at least a full season in AAA or won a legitimate award of some kind. AAA baseball, while it doesn’t get a significant amount of national attention, it does get a fair amount of local media attention. It is the second-highest level of professional baseball in North America and arguably the third-highest level in the world, with guys usually taking several seasons in the low minors to get there.

I would even suggest opening the criteria up to include players who were selected in the first round of the draft. Those guys are considered top prospects from the moment they’re selected, and usually get quite a bit of attention in the market that the parent club plays in. With the draft now being televised, they’re also getting more national attention.

I don’t believe that everyone who has ever played professional baseball is notable. A lot of guys are drafted/signed simply to fill out minor league rosters, and as a result I would not object to leaving these players out of Wikipedia. WAMCO1993 (talk) 15:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is trying to argue that ALL minor league players are notable. The only dispute is whether some are, or none. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 15:18, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

• Response to RFC I think that, aside from people in the majors, those of us who aren't baseball fans are unlikely to ever hear about any of the baseball players from the lower leagues. They are not notable, any more than, say, the "teacher of the year" in calculus at any particular college is -- they may be of some importance locally, but no more than that. Such exceptions who do get lots of notice will have the press to qualify for notability under other provisions of WP:BIO. RayAYang (talk) 16:13, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I haven't heard of many of the academics or authors that have pages on Wikipedia, nor am I well versed in all the congressmen or european politicians that have pages... but just cause "those that aren't fans" may not have heard of someone doesn't mean that they don't deserve a page. Wikipedia provides a purpose of providing information to those that do care to look up information on someone who is a prospect in such-and-such an organization. Ray's point that he doesn't care about knowing about these guys so no one should be able to find out about them... is a silly argument. Spanneraol (talk) 16:40, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

The notability guidelines exist for a reason, to differentiate between those of lasting historical interest and those who do not. In that light, your argument that we should be able to look up anybody who's a *prospective* rather than established figure is bizarre. Every postdoc is a prospective professor. Every ADA is a prospective district attorney. We only put these people into Wikipedia when they garner sufficient attention to pass the notability threshold; we do not put all of these people on Wikipedia. The same standard should apply to baseball players. Groups of players who are not likely to get anything other than incidental mentions in the press should not be considered, a priori, notable enough for wikipedia. RayAYang (talk) 16:58, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

The same argument applies, just as readily, to fringe major league baseball players. Someone whose accomplishments involve ten at-bats in September in a single season will garner little more than a note in boxscores and the obligatory "Joe Shlbotnik was recalled from Springfield yesterday, and may see some action tonight if Ty Prider's hamstring doesn't show improvement."  RGTraynor  17:11, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it does. I think the purpose of a specific notability guideline is to create reasonable, quick-and-dirty approximations to the general guideline, to save us work and make things easy for people to understand. In this case, I think the current guideline distorts the notion of notability beyond recognition, allowing any professional player to write himself a stub. I think declaring major league players notable a priori is a reasonable compromise. RayAYang (talk) 17:31, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

The problem with letting some minor leaguers in and not others is that you will always get players who are on the edge of being notable and people will start comparing whose this minor league award to that one, and if Guy A is notable for that, then certainly Guy B is notable for this; and if that happens based on the amount of players who have passed through the minor leagues for the past 50 years that's quite a lot of arguing over something that can very simply be avoided. Blackngold29 16:49, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

And that's the nature of the beast. AfD is filled with discussions as to whether Soandso passes the applicable notability criteria or not. I'm a frequent flyer at AfD, and have a few thousand AfD-related edits; if and when getting involved in such debates bugs me, I can just stop.  RGTraynor  17:00, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I only think saying that some are notable and some are not is a bigger mistake than letting them all in (though at this point I'm still agains that too). Blackngold29 17:07, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I don’t share your concern that allowing only certain minor leaguers will lead to endless discussions on the topic. The current criteria are clear for which minor leaguers are notable. A minor league player needs certain achievements to receive a page in the encyclopedia. The only point that isn’t well defined is awards, but I don’t think it would be too hard to come up with a list of awards that are eligible for a player’s inclusion. WAMCO1993 (talk) 17:31, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

To RGTraynor, your NHL guideline has much nicer detail than what we have here. A few questions though: how many articles do you have for first-round draft picks who never made the NHL? How many articles do you have for players that never got past the ECHL but met the 100-game requirement? More to the point, how many articles do you have like Marc Magliarditi? Unless he makes the NHL - and he's been trying for around a decade now - is there any chance of that article ever getting expanded beyond its current state? That article has become nothing but a category farm with more categories (19) than Harmon Killebrew (18). It's not even accurate as I had to fix a typo just now that has gone unnoticed for literally a year (in fact exactly a year!). If my hunch is correct, there are hundreds or even thousands more articles just like it. Similar to the countless copy/pasted articles under Category:Communes of Landes. Pointless. Shouldn't we be striving to create articles that people put real work and care into? And not just create like a bot and then forget and neglect forever?

To another RGTraynor comment, if you'd like to raise the bar even higher than major leagues, I'm okay with that too. If the person had one at bat in 1912 and disappeared and not even SABR can find a birth and death date, etc., by all means, delete. The fewer unexpandable stubs, the better.

To all, can we at least agree on a few things? The list of leagues used for all-star team tests needs to be pared down. Even Spanneraol and Hit bull, win steak have agreed that the Arizona League should not be used for determining notability. So which others? Can we have a fully-inclusive list that can be put in place now? After that, we can discuss A-level leagues. Hit bull, win steak did a nice run-down of A-ball All Stars and found that around 50% of the members ever make the majors. I don't find that particularly convincing but maybe others do. As I said above, shouldn't we be avoiding the creation of Calvin Chipperfield articles somehow? Chipperfield was one of the top RHP in the Midwest League in 2000, even throwing a no-hitter, and was named to the all-star team. So what? He played a single game at AA in 2002 and then disappeared. What is someone going to write on him? I see no write-ups anywhere, here's one "farm report"-type rundown mentioning his name in two sentences. That's it. No idea why he never made it past AA, no other mentions where his name is not part of a computer-generated database report (i.e., what Baseball Cube is) or a recap of a particular game. Hell, a Google search for him shows a construction worker's LinkedIn page at the top of the list! And this is an Australia native who one would think would get more press coverage for that reason alone.

In general, if we'd like to put the bar at "Only people who have had their biographical information detailed - beyond stub level - in a reliable source story where they were featured", then I'm good with that. If that lets in single-A players who have real non-stub information available but keeps out AAA players who disappeared in 1950, so be it. I can listen to an argument like that. —Wknight94 (talk) 17:46, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

How many hockey articles do we have for first round draft picks who never made the NHL? Some. How many articles do we have for career minor leaguers who never made the NHL? Some. Where we obviously differ is that I see nothing wrong with that. I've been called a deletionist by a lot of people, but Wikipedia is still not paper, and if you want an encyclopedia where only Hall of Famers need apply, it already exists. There are people in Buffalo, Sacramento, Durham, Pawtucket, Omaha, Indianapolis, Albuquerque and Sacramento who think a great deal of their local players, who have reliable news media of their own, and have media coverage which would satisfy WP:V about said players.  RGTraynor  18:56, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

IIRC, Chipperfield went back to Australia and played pro ball there for some time after Detroit cut him loose. He didn't exactly disappear - he was just playing in a league that's not tracked by the common online stat databases. I think that with some library work it'd be possible to generate an article for Chipperfield of the sort that you're describing... and honestly, his notability probably shouldn't depend on participation in the organized minors anyway, since he was on Australia's national team during a major international competition (the 2001 Baseball World Cup) -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 21:41, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Big section and I'm coming into the discussion late, so pardon me. Generally, I'm in favor of limiting notability to major league players in any sport, because the minor leagues are nothing more than a feeder league; I think top level league players from Japan, etc. should be notable, because it's a standalone entity, but the minor leagues are subordinate to the major leagues and those players should only be notable once a certain level is attained. I can see valid exceptions to this rule as well: being on a 40 man roster or an Olympic team. But generally speaking, I don't think just playing at a AAA level should confer notability. I could get on board with a hockey-like criteria if it's strictly listed and enforced, but that would be difficult. If a player yo-yos between AA and AAA for five seasons, would that be counted as AAA or AA time? etc. Those are just my thoughts, though: absolutely exceptional media coverage beyond coverage of the team in geneal (like Freddy Adu level), 40 man rosters, and Olympics or WBC for minor leaguers, that's all. matt91486 (talk) 20:35, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

My two cents: Any sort of guideline that we have should not trump the WP:BIO guideline, it should be subservient to the guideline.

The guideline requires "significant coverage in reliable sources". If anyone meets that criteria they are notable (for Wikipedia purposes) no matter where or what they are playing. Pretty much all current Major Leaguers meet the wp:bio criteria. The problem is - and this is where the Project's guideline is important - old Major Leaguers. Although Major Leaguers in the 1930's received significant coverage in reliable sources, those media sources are not available to the masses, making it difficult for the old-timers to meet the wp:bio guideline. As not to arbitrarily discriminate between current Major Leaguers and Major Leaguers from the 1930's, the guideline comes along and requests that the Wikipedia community to consider old Major Leaguers notable even though significant coverage cannot be found, since there's an assumption that at one point there was significant coverage. This guideline does not trump the wp:bio guideline, it goes along with the wp:bio guideline. This is what the Projects guideline should be limited to: making up for people that are truly notable.

If a minor leaguer meets the wp:bio guideline, then good for him, he should have a Wikipedia article. But if a minor leaguer is simply not notable, the fact that he managed to make some all-star team in a six team Single-A conference shouldn't make him notable.

The big concern that some have mentioned here: truly notable first-rounders or major prospects won't be considered notable, is not a problem. If they truly are notable, they won't need the Project to make them notable, they should be able to meet the wp:bio standards on their own. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 21:48, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

We've now had a few people remind us (or remind me anyway) of the core principle of WP:BIO: "A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject." (emphasis mine) For the recent Miracle players that were deleted, where is the significant coverage in independent reliable sources? From a random check, they appear to have been sourced from pretty much nothing, with links only to the front pages of Miracle web sites. And Kelley Gulledge? It was sourced by unreliable bloggy web sites and fan sites.

So, how about going back to basics? If folks can't find significant coverage in reliable independent sources, then the article gets deleted. Forget all other guidelines. Hell, I'd even apply the same rule to major league players! If we can't write a proper article, then it goes. Otherwise, we're essentially doing bot work and creating articles based on database reports, and that smells a lot like a violation of the WP:INDISCRIMINATE policy. If you think you can find significant coverage, then do so or it goes. Per WP:V policy, the burden of proof lies with the author. If it gets deleted and you find significant coverage later, it can always be restored.

The next step would be to define "significant", "reliable", and "independent". "Reliable" is pretty straightforward and there is even a WP:RSN noticeboard available. "Significant"? As I've alluded to a few times, I am looking for a news article or write-up devoted solely to the article subject. Several publications have regular "farm reports" which run down hot prospects, maybe per parent club or per league, etc. A short blurb in such a write-up would not count as significant coverage. If a particular player is the lead to such a section, there may be some biographical information, but that still doesn't count as significant coverage by itself. Maybe a few lead sections in a few different independent sources could add up to "significant" coverage but, again, it may have to hold up to AFD scrutiny. Mentions in individual game recaps would count for nothing. This is a tough one but inclusion in a list of all-stars or award winners is not significant coverage - it's just a name on a list.

That leaves "independent". "Independent" wouldn't include team web sites. Team web sites are expected to have write-ups for one if its own players. A player's own web site wouldn't count and I'm not sure even a league web site would count!

I'm good with this approach. No more mass-creation of stubs filled with nothing but stats dumped directly from a database. No more blindly applying guidelines that we seem to be incapable of agreeing to. The only guideline is essentially whether or not you can write a real article. And not in the future - can you write a real article about the player now. Thoughts? —Wknight94 (talk) 03:56, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

A league site would probably qualify in terms of reliability (as per WP:SELFPUB, but be more questionable for the purpose of determining notability. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 15:56, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

My concern with just throwing it back onto WP:BIO is that a lot of people at AFD and such aren't going to be willing to do the legwork to determine whether a minor league player has received significant media coverage or not (particularly if they aren't familiar with baseball, as many are not). Having a notability guideline with specific benchmarks simplifies the task for them. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 15:56, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Ultimately, if a guy never gets promoted to the big leagues in some capacity, the club itself doesn't consider him "notable". Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 10:44, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Its time we stopped talking about what the guidelines make us do. We here at Wikipedia make our own guideline. We decide what to do, and then write the guideline to match., Needless to say, "we" here refers to the entire Wikipedia community. It will be necessary to convince people here generally that minor league players are, or are not, appropriate for Wikipedia articles. Personally I have no opinion, but to decisde it on he basis of the erraticness of web sourcing doesn't seem sensible. Nor does reliance upon :professionalism: if a guy makes $40000 and manages to live on that, the fellow is notable, but not if he has a winter job also? Just a view from a total outsider. DGG (talk) 06:37, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Minor league notability - next steps

I've arrived late to this discussion. I think it's unfortunate that it seems to have split along the lines of most-or-all minor leaguers are notable versus no minor leaguers are notable. My observation from observing and participating in many minor league AfD discussions is that neither of these extreme positions is likely to prevail. Articles on minor leaguers who have distinguished themselves are likely to be kept, whereas articles on ordinary minor leaguers are likely to be deleted.

What this WikiProject needs to do is give the best possible guidance to editors participating in AfD discussions (including many who are not familiar with minor league baseball) about which minor leaguers are notable. While the WikiProject's current notability guidelines are a useful step in that direction, I think they can be improved. Some of the criteria are a bit vague or ambiguous, while others don't do a particularly good job of identifying notable minor league players.

Therefore, I've set up a page where I hope we can participate in a discussion to reach consensus about improving the notability guidelines. I'd prefer that it be an effort to reach a compromise on guidelines that can be acceptable to most members of the project, rather than a debate that doesn't move consensus forward.

Please join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball/Notability guidelines. BRMo (talk) 03:56, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

These very guidelines you just described weren't followed in deleting my Miracle entries. An egomaniac just deleted them all without any concern for what anyone else thought.--Johnny Spasm (talk) 09:13, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I can tell you are upset about the deletions, but I respectfully suggest that name calling isn't going to accomplish anything constructive.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 14:19, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

The closing admin in that discussion had a very difficult position to take with some incredibly diffuse proposals. I hardly think insulting him is proper. matt91486 (talk) 15:23, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree that insulting Wizardman isn't productive, but it was a bad close that went outside of site guidelines and didn't reflect the page consensus (or at worst, the lack thereof). And the initial nomination by Wknight94 was pretty bitey, in that Johnny has only been here for a little over a month, and no effort was made to communicate with him about the need for sources in his articles or the process involved in adding them (and there are/were numerous sources available for many of them) before nominating the lot for a confusing mass-deletion. He's not expressing it very well, but he's got a right to be pissed. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 16:06, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I just think we're still ignoring the fact that minor league baseball leagues are feeder leagues ultimately. The same reason playing on a soccer reserve team doesn't confer notability should be applying to minor league players. Once again, there is still some media attention, but that's mainly because of the affiliation with the organization instead of the individual himself. matt91486 (talk) 18:26, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

No no no, this is the section for slapping people's hands. Bring notability issues to the nice new guideline page BRMo made.  :) —Wknight94 (talk) 18:33, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Johnny Spasm is recruiting people to use DRV to get the deletions overturned. [3] This, for example: [4] I guess he forgot to post that notice here, or at least I'm not seeing it offhand. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 10:40, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Like I pointed out above, he's pretty new, so he may not understand how these things work. I'll tell him about canvassing. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 13:39, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Lou Gehrig

I've taken this recently failed Good Article nomination to WP:Good article reassessment/Lou Gehrig/1 for community reconsideration. JGHowes ^talk - 11:42, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Coco Crisp

Resolved

 – Someone moved the article back properly. —Wknight94 (talk) 21:10, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Recently noticed that the Coco Crisp article has been moved to his given name, Covelli Crisp, which is hardly ever used by any sources or by the teams which he has played for. Just wanted to get the group's opinion before asking an admin to move the page back to Coco. Thanks. - Masonpatriot (talk) 15:49, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

This should DEFINITELY be at Coco Crisp, per WP:UCN. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 16:26, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Of course it should be... admin has to make the move though... don't copy and paste... JustSomeRandomGuy32 (talk) 16:31, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Certainly... and it will probably need a move protection at that time as well. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 16:33, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

This is more of a mess than I realized because someone already did a copy and paste move. The Covelli Crisp redirect existed already, so now the talk page for Covelli Crisp is at Talk:Coco Crisp. Agggghhh... KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 16:37, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Not a big deal - admin needs to just delete the current content of Coco Crisp, then make the move - someone already did that for the talk page but didn't finish the job... JustSomeRandomGuy32 (talk) 17:00, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

External links in rosters

I noticed that {{Kinston_Indians_roster}} has external links to the baseball-reference "Bullpen" wiki. Should this be allowed/done? I was under the impression that external links should never be in templates, including rosters. Thoughts? Metros (talk) 13:33, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Definitely no. In fact, why do we need any reference to that site at all anywhere? —Wknight94 (talk) 13:36, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Uh-oh. Why do we have so many links to that site? Don't tell me we're citing a wiki that doesn't usually do a good job of citing anything. We could be citing Ron liebman (talk · contribs)! For shame. —Wknight94 (talk) 13:41, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

For the record, Liebman (or his online version, anyway) is just about as unwelcome at Bullpen as he is here. They don't really have formal banninating procedures, but anytime he tries to make one of his changes, he's reverted on sight. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 15:30, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Liebman's last edit from his main account at Bullpen was made on July 17, 2007. He continued socking from library IPs for a few months after that, then apparently gave up. Note that I'm not necessarily saying that we should be linking to Bullpen entries... just that Liebman shouldn't be represented as an active, trusted member of the project over there. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 15:39, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

(ec - and maybe you answered my questions...) Yeah, because I told them about him. That aside, do they have as coordinated an effort to deal with him? Do they run checkusers? Do they have a dozen people watching every article he obsesses on? If I weren't deleting his socks here per WP:DENY, he'd be in the hundreds by now. And that's just one troll. We at least try to make sure every little piece of information is cited and easily verifiable. Unless Bullpen has changed recently, I think they make no such attempts. —Wknight94 (talk) 15:47, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

There aren't any formal mechanisms like checkuser in place, but people know which articles he's tried to work his misinformation into, and they've generally done a very good job of reverting him on sight. I just think it's unfair of you to implicitly tar everyone over there with the Liebman brush, when it's not like we've entirely licked the vandalism thing ourselves... -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 20:23, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

In reference to the KTribe roster, these are links to articles that are not allowed here due to the elitist attitude of this wikiproject towards articles on minor league players. If they were allowed here, I would have had no reason to post them on another site. Is it not preferable to have links to actual articles so that information can be gained or do you prefer thousands of red links? Kinston eagle (talk) 14:57, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

If you want to argue that point, Eagle, go to the notability guidelines link above, not here. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 14:59, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I am not arguing notability. I am explaning to Metros why there are external links in the roster. Had I thought that the players were notable by this wikiproject's lofty standards, I would have written the articles here. Kinston eagle (talk) 15:05, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

The purpose of templates is to provide easy access to navigate through Wikipedia articles, not to link to outside articles. Metros (talk) 15:13, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

(ec)Kinston Eagle, make a list page here and write as many mini-articles as you want. Don't subvert the process here by linking to some other wiki site, esp. when it has no hint of even trying to be reliable! Wow. You spout off about vandalism here and then direct our readers to a site where community-banned misinformation mongers like Ron liebman (talk · contribs) are known to run amok and unchecked. Unreal. —Wknight94 (talk) 15:17, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

At the core, this truly is a notability argument, because the reason these articles are not included in the first place is because of notability. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 15:21, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that. I'd say that the core of this is the purpose of templates. Having a roster template filled with dozens of red links, with articles that will never be written, is not what a template should be used for. Metros (talk) 15:26, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

You're both right! And it's also an issue about where the links were going. What a terrible idea. There's no real reason to link to that site at all, let alone this way. —Wknight94 (talk) 15:29, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Is there some policy somewhere about links in templates? I don't really have a problem with Kinston linking to pages he created on the Bullpen... it provides a way for people to get the information on the players, which isn't provided for them on wikipedia. Where is the harm in that? Spanneraol (talk) 17:06, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Asked and answered. See above. —Wknight94 (talk) 17:33, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't seem like any real policy exists.. mostly personal preference it seems... I don't know this guy you people are talking about.. must have been before my time... Spanneraol (talk) 20:40, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Pick one. WP:EL, WP:RS, WP:NOR, WP:V. What could possibly be appropriate about linking from here to a wiki site with no hint of reliability where at least one known community-banned user comes and goes as he pleases. —Wknight94 (talk) 20:59, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

So the issue isn't really the links, but where they link to... if he had the template link to the players bios on the team webpages that seems like that would be allowable. Spanneraol (talk) 21:14, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't be as horrified but then you'd bounce over to Metros's original question above. —Wknight94 (talk) 21:17, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Nashville Sounds FAC

Please weight in on the Nashville Sounds FAC nomination. This article seems to have a decent chance of becoming the first Featured article for a modern baseball team. Kaldari (talk) 15:16, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

List of Minnesota Twins managers

We have another new FL candidate for the WikiProject, and in-project contributors would be greatly appreciated! Thanks! KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 22:24, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Point of game log templates?

What is the point of having the separate template pages for 2008 team game logs (such as Template:2008 New York Mets season game log) when they are now writting into the article? Shouldn't these extraneous pages be deleted? -- bmitchelf•T•F 16:50, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, they probably ought to be, unless they need to be kept around for after the season is over. I know that these articles will be quite long at the end of the season, probably 40-45 KB, and a template would keep the size down if anyone is going to push their team's article for FA or GA status (I know I was thinking about it). I don't have any problem with this one being long. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 16:54, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I think this was discussed before, I didn't think they're necessary because they are only used on one article and templates are usually used for the same info that is on multiple pages. I moved the Pirates back because I update it everyday and nobody opposed it, although I can see what KV5's saying about the size; that's the only logical argument I've heard to separate them. Blackngold29 17:01, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Just a question. How is a template going to keep the size of an article down? You still have to load the template with the page. —Borgarde^talk 16:59, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Because when you use the temp it is put in the article as {{Phillies 2008 schedule}}. Blackngold29 17:01, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but that's only the size of the raw text and not the total page size after templates and images are included. I myself would prefer if all game log templates were just in the articles instead of being separate. —Borgarde^talk 17:06, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Meh... I say the templates are pretty much extraneous at this point. I think I may have been the one to open the discussion of why they weren't in the pages in the first place, so I'm with whichever way we decide to go at this point. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 17:13, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. The only legitimate reason to keep the templates is if there are plans to use them in multiple places. I heard someone (maybe here) propose to keep templates like these to make it harder for vandals to find. That was the most unwiki thing I'd heard in quite some time. —Wknight94 (talk) 17:20, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Tables, lists, references, etc... are not included in determining whether a page is too long by wikipedia standards. You should only worry about the length of the "readable prose" when determining whether something is too long for GA or FA status. See: Wikipedia:Article size Kinston eagle (talk) 18:17, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Old school ballparks

I was going through the Pittsburgh Pirates' (who usually shared with the Steelers) home stadiums and re-writing them. For the earliest parks, info is sketchy as the events happend over 100 years ago, but this is what I have. This is where it gets confusing... The Pittsburgh Alleghenies date back to 1876 they played at Union Park, which had a capacity of 2,500. They played in the International Association league. They were rejected from entering the National League and disbanded for four years, returning in 1882 to the American Association (19th century). In 1887, the Alleghenis joined the National League and technically became the team that are the Pirates today. They played games in Exposition Park for two years, but when the river overflowed and flooded the field, the team moved back to Union Park, which was now called Recreation Park; although I have no sources about the expansion, the park's capacity is now 17,000. While they were are Recreation Park the Pittsburgh Burghers built a second Exposition Park right next to the first; when the Burghers collapsed the Alleghenies moved to Exposition II. At some point after that a third Exposition Park was built and played in. In 1909 the Alleghenies moved to Forbes Field and the confusion ceased. The only problem is, the articles are about the "parks" and not only the teams that played in them, however, I don't know when Recreation/Union Park was actually built, hell, I don't know if anything was actually built; although with a 2,500 capacity I assume there was something. Perhaps that's my problem, assuming that it was a stadium and not just a ballfield. I also don't know when it was torn down after the Bucs left and it was turned into a motorcyle racing track of some sort. So basically, I'm asking if anyone has any sources with info about Recreation Park or Exposition Park (any of the three); because currently the articles aren't sourced, and from what I'm finding aren't correct about some things. Black ngold29 18:14, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't have any refs myself, but I did find a couple of promising leads. Ballparks of North America : a comprehensive historical reference to baseball grounds, yards, and stadiums, 1845 to present is available at 390 libraries in the US. The book listed in the Recreation Park (Pittsburgh) article is also available in many libraries.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 19:00, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

HOF in LEAD debate

At, Talk:Walter_O'Malley#HOF_in_LEAD_debate there is a debate going on about whether Hall of Fame should be mentioned in the WP:LEAD of a biography article.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 19:17, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Of course it should. It's the most prestigious honor in the game. You need to know in the lead that this is not just Joe Schlobotnik. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 19:23, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I concur. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 19:40, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I third. Blackngold29 22:48, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Should be a snow to close the debate with speedy keep. The HoF is the most important honor organized baseball in the U.S. confers, reserved for only the most distinguished contributions to the game over a lifetime. Omission of its mention in the Lead, which is supposed to cover all important points of the subject, would be a serious shortcoming and unworthy of a FA/GA-class bio. JGHowes ^talk - 23:10, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Minor league notability - draft now available

Our discussion of the criteria for minor league notability has made good progress, and we now have a draft set of revised criteria. Your review and comments are welcome at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball/Notability guidelines#Draft guidelines. BRMo (talk) 03:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I've updated the WikiProject's notability criteria to reflect the consensus that was reached in the discussion. BRMo (talk) 22:15, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2008 August 9

In that day's discussions, I've proposed a category rename that would affect over 6000 baseball articles. Due to the sheer size of the rename, I invite all to comment here. Wizardman 22:46, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

List of baseball parks in Chicago, Illinois

What does anyone think of the general format of this article/list? Be brutal. :) I've started just a few of these and I don't want to go too far down the wrong path... especially if someone else is already doing this already, though I doubt it. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:21, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Would a table be easier to read? Something about the current format isn't inviting to read, and I'm not 100% sure what the problem is.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 16:03, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, the current format isn't bad, but putting it in a table format would make it a LOT easier both on the eyes and on you in case something needs to be tweaked. Wizardman 16:11, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I thought that too but wasn't sure it would look good since there would be whole sentences in some of the cells:

Park	Occupant	Location	Currently	Notes
Dexter Park	Chicago White Stockings, independent professional club (1870)	Halsted Street (east), between 47th Street (south) and the imaginary line of 42nd Street (north). Adjacent to Union Stock Yards.	Uniform services plant.	Later: site of International Amphitheatre
Ogden Park	Chicago White Stockings (1870) - some games	East of where Ontario Street (at that time) T-ed into Michigan Avenue.
Union Base-Ball Grounds	Chicago White Stockings - National Association (1871)	Randolph (north), Michigan Avenue (west)	Northwest corner of Lake Park (now known as Grant Park)	a.k.a. White Stocking Park

Well maybe it's not too bad. Hmmm... —Wknight94 (talk) 16:54, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

The variable-lengthy nature of the cells is one reason I wouldn't be too keen on the tabular format. But we'll see. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 17:47, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Notification of new helpful template

Hi all project members. Just wanted to let you know that I created a template, based on {{by|YYYY}}, to address one of those tedious coding problems we all have when making articles (especially those of us pushing FLs). Now, if you want to input a Major League Baseball season, instead of just a "year in baseball", you can use the template {{MLBY|YYYY}} (can be caps or small letters), and it should give you a link to the MLB season, as follows: 2008. Hope this helps everyone out! KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 19:20, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Should we input this template into the MLB infobox? Since it's only for MLB teams, it will give links to the appropriate MLB season instead of year in baseball. This could be a problem for anyone who wants to put a team article through GA or FA. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 16:33, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Rename team seasons lists?

At the New York Yankees seasons FLC, two reviewers have recommended moving the page to List of New York Yankees seasons. If such a change is made, it would mean that the other team season lists would need to be moved to match. One of the reviewers asked me to bring this up here for discussion. I have no real preference, so I want to see what everyone thinks on this. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:16, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I prefer to leave them as is, due to the fact that several reviewers have been recommending a higher level of creativity in leads, and I think that this should be reflected in titles as well. Precedent is not law, but I think in this case it's OK. I do know that Chicago Bears seasons, which is what Philadelphia Phillies seasons was based on, has been listed for removal, so I don't know what we should follow. Since I'm an FL reviewer myself, I'd like to see what others in the community think. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 23:24, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

My pref is to go with List of New York Yankees seasons. It definitely tells the reader right up front what they are getting - a list, and the list is about the New York Yankees seasons. But it's not a big deal either way.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 23:29, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I noticed an innaccuracy on Wikipedia

In 1979, it says:

• September 26 - Phil Niekro of the Atlanta Braves earns his 20th win of the season in a win over the Houston Astros. the losing pitcher is his brother, Joe Niekro who picks up his 20th loss of the season. Joe is the last pitcher of the twentieth century to earn both 20 wins and 20 losses in a season, and is the first National League pitcher to do so since 1905. The Brothers Niekro also join brothers Jim and Gaylord Perry as the only brothers to both win 20 games in the same season.

In actuality, Phil was the brother who lost 20 games that season. I don't know how to correct that particular entry. Would it be correct to change it to read:

• September 26 - Joe Niekro of the Houston Astros earns his 20th win of the season in a win over the Atlanta Braves. the losing pitcher is his brother, Phil Niekro who picks up his 20th loss of the season. Phil is the last pitcher of the twentieth century to earn both 20 wins and 20 losses in a season, and is the first National League pitcher to do so since 1905. The Brothers Niekro also join brothers Jim and Gaylord Perry as the only brothers to both win 20 games in the same season.

My guess is yes, but again, it is just a guess. I opt for removing it entirely.--Johnny Spasm (talk) 02:23, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

According to baseball-reference, you are right. Joe did win 21 games that season, while his brother also lost 20 games. I guess the confusion maybe due to the fact that Phil also won 21 games that season. --  StarScream1007  ►Talk  04:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Without a source, I'd recommend removing entirely. —Wknight94 (talk) 11:26, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed--Johnny Spasm (talk) 12:02, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I removed it entirely.--Johnny Spasm (talk) 12:13, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Retrosheet shows Phil won his 20th that day, which brought his record to 20-20. Joe had already won 20, and this was his 11th loss. [5] Joe actually won his 20th a week earlier, against the Reds. [6] Obviously someone got confused. But this is where baseball legends begin, with messed-up facts. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 15:12, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I noticed another innaccuracy

Under Davey Johnson, it reads:

Johnson's best statistical year came in 1973 when he broke Rogers Hornsby's record for most single-season home runs by a second baseman with 43.

In actuality, he hit one of those home runs as a pinch hitter, and was only ever credited with tying the record.--Johnny Spasm (talk) 14:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, if you can find inaccuracies, and you find references that corroborate the correct facts, then simply fix it. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 15:02, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The Sporting News Baseball Record Book for 2007 (the last year it was published) confirms the matter on p. 23. Unfortunately, Elias does not appear to carry that level of detail. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 15:18, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Baseball Reference may seem to disagree; apparently only 41 home runs were hit from the second base position for the 1973 Braves. [7] KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 15:46, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Baseball reference seems to have a problem with Johnson's stats.. they say he hit 43 Homers.. but under splits it says 41 as a 2b and 1 as a pinch hitter... leaving one mysterious homerun unaccounted for. Spanneraol (talk) 17:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Read the page carefully [8]. Notice a 'I' next to the defensive stats (notice he started 155 games - but only 150 at 2B) - check the bottom of the page: "An I indicates that the split may be incomplete due to a few missing play-by-play accounts." The defensive breakdown is incomplete when you go back that far. JustSomeRandomGuy32 (talk) 17:35, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Retrosheet shows 42 at 2B and 1 as PH. They show 156 games at 2B and 2 as PH, over 157 games, so presumably he entered one game as PH and stayed in the game. [9] Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 18:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Looking at Johnson's daily record [10] one of the two games where he came in as a pinch-hitter was June 17 [11] where he homered and then stayed in the game at 2B. This is where the figger filberts' get carried away. His normal position was 2B, he pinch-hit and then stayed in as 2B, yet he's not credited with breaking Hornsby's record due to the scoring rules. It's stupid. The other game where he came in as PH was May 27 [12] in which he batted for the pitcher but did not come into the game defensively. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 18:49, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

And retrosheet's season splits obviously don't agree with baseball-reference, but they do account for all 42 homers at 2B. [13] Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 18:55, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I just looked at Davey Johnson's entry, and saw that Baseball Bugs corrected it. Crisis averted; problem solved. Thank you, Bugs--Johnny Spasm (talk) 19:25, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

And as I indicated above, I don't agree with it. But MLB defines what the records are, so dat's dat. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 20:10, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Coincidentally, Johnson agrees with you and thinks it's BS that he was never credited with sole possession of the record--Johnny Spasm (talk) 20:53, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I Need Your Help

I added the following to John Stearns' Wikipedia entry a while back:

During the first-ever fireworks night hosted at Shea Stadium on July 4, 1980, Montreal Expos Rookie Bill Gullickson sailed a pitch over Mets first baseman Mike Jorgensen's head in the second game of a double header. Jorgensen didn't appreciate this as he had been the victim of one of the worst beanball injuries in baseball history the previous season with the Texas Rangers, and motioned toward Gullickson his disapproval. Stearns, who wasn't even in the line-up for this game, charged out of the dugout and welcomed Gullickson to the majors by slamming him to the ground.

Someone added to it. I can certainly respect that, however I'm having a little bit of a problem. I remember reading about the Jorgensen beaning back when I was a kid when it happened. I also remember watching the game in which Stearns attacked Gullickson on TV when I was a kid. I've looked all over the web for a credible source to validate my memory on either subject (including Jorgensen's own Wikipedia entry). I've found neither.

You guys seem better than me at finding this stuff. Can anyone help me out?--Johnny Spasm (talk) 20:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

That's a pretty obscure one, hence the need for a fact tag; and of questionable notability, as fights in MLB are not uncommon. The retrosheet entry doesn't say anything about it except that Gullickson got shelled in the first inning and was taken out. [14] Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 21:05, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

If you look for Gullickson and Stearns in tandem in Google, you'll find some references, though I'm not sure they're "admissable". Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 21:07, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The fact that Jorgensen was beaned in 1979 seems to be the more important fact to verify, but I can't find that ANYWHERE. for that matter, it would be nice to gather more information on the subject (ie_ the pitcher, opposing team and circumstances). Oh well, the search continues. Again, if anyone can find anything that lends creedence to this story, please help.--Johnny Spasm (talk) 21:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Best I can find is this source here: [15]. Jorgensen was hit by two pitches in 1979, and he was only replaced in one of those two games. Assuming this was quite a nasty beanball incident, that one would make sense, but that's quite a bit of speculation on my part. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 22:05, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I'd agree that MLB fights are common. Have there been any this year? It seemed like you could go a whole year without one - even back then - but I don't have stats to back that up. I'd be curious which happens more often, baseball fights or no-hitters. (BTW, I'm not just saying that because I initiated the Stearns article. I wasn't nearly as careful back in those days). —Wknight94 (talk) 22:51, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

There's been at least one fight this year. :) --Fabrictramp | talk to me 23:30, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The first time he was hit by a pitch was against Toronto on April 23. He sat the next day, but was back in the line up the 25th.

On Monday, May 28, 1979, Mike Jorgensen was hit by a pitch from Boston Red Sox pitcher Andy Hassler. Pat Putnam took over at first base after that. Jorgensen pinch hit on May 31, but that's it. He didn't play again until July 1. His plate appearances also severely diminished after that.

My guess is that this is the incident I recall from my childhood, but I'm not comfortable posting it as fact on Wikipedia. Mad props for finding that, though.--Johnny Spasm (talk) 00:04, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I think any decent library will have access to newspaper archives. With my library card to the San Francisco Public Library, I get online access to ProQuest which allows searches of a pretty extensive newspaper database. I found the following re Jorgensen from the Toronto Globe and Mail, June 4, 1979, pg. S.9:

"Jorgensen in hospital

Monday, June 04, 1979

Arlington TX -- ARLINGTON, Tex. (AP) - First baseman Mike Jorgensen, who was hit in the head by a pitched ball earlier in the week while playing for Texas Rangers, was placed in the intensive care unit of Arlington Memorial Hospital on Saturday night.

Doctors said he was in fair condition. ''His condition is now stable. He is conscious. He will be here for an undetermined length of time.''"

A previous blurb in the Globe and Mail from June 2 indicated that he was hit in the head the previous Monday, which would indeed have been May 28. I also found Globe and Mail articles the following year about the Jorgensen-Gullickson-Stearns incident. --Sanfranman59 (talk) 17:45, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Cat:Cincinnati Kelly's Killers players

I have requested that Category:Cincinnati Kelly's Killers players be moved to Category:Cincinnati Porkers players to reflect the team's page name. Discussion can be found here. -Dewelar (talk) 00:22, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Harmon Killebrew

Our first AID is currently a GA on hold. Let's try and get it over the hump and finish what's left. (In other news, our current one is Jackie Robinson. Didn't even realize we were on our second one) Wizardman 15:37, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I haven't had time to look over the Robinson article or get a "To do" list made. But it looks better than Harmon's so it shouldn't take as long to get it to a GA. The biggest thing that needs done on the Killebrew GA review is the two ciations that are needed. I was hoping someone who did research for the article could remember if they've seen that info in a source. Blackngold29 18:12, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Question of Appropriateness

I thought it might be cool to add flags to indicate foreign born players on the Miracle roster, but I wasn't sure if that was something that was acceptable for Wikipedia. This is just here; I did not change the team template. I'm at the stage where I like to check these things first--Johnny Spasm (talk) 17:09, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Fort Myers Miracle roster

Players				Coaches/Other
Pitchers 38 Alex Burnett 13 Cole Devries 39 Blair Erickson 32 Matt Fox 43 Deolis Guerra 24 Carlos Gutierrez 19 Andrey Lobanov 16 Jose Lugo 19 Jose Mijares * 36 Tyler Robertson † 31 Anthony Slama 36 David Shinskie † 23 Oswaldo Sosa* 17 Spencer Steedley -- Joe Testa -- Kyle Waldrop † 12 Matthew Williams		Catchers 22 Daniel Lehmann 40 Wilson Ramos Infielders 8 Danny Berg 35 Garrett Olson 5 Yancarlos Ortiz 27 Whit Robbins 2 Steve Singleton 1 Yangervis Solarte 21 Johnny Woodard † Outfielders 18 Edward Ovalle 7 Juan Portes 25 Danny Santiesteban 4 Eli Tintor 0 Rene Tosoni†		Manager 33 Jeff Smith Coaches 20 Jim Dwyer (hitting) 41 Eric Rasmussen (pitching) -- Larry Bennese (trainer) 7-day injured list * On [[Minnesota Twins |Minnesota Twins]] [[Template:Minnesota Twins roster|40-man roster]] ~ Development list # Rehab assignment ∞ Reserve list ‡ Restricted list § Suspended list † Temporarily inactive list Roster updated 2008-08-16 Transactions → More MiLB rosters → [[Minnesota Twins minor league players]]

WP:FLAG - Flags were once part of the rosters. They were taken out after it was decided that they did not fit this rule. Basically - since it's not international competition, the flags are not appropriate - they are not playing to represent their countries. JustSomeRandomGuy32 (talk) 17:28, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Squads on association football team articles all have flags indicating the players' nationalities, so I don't see why baseball rosters shouldn't have them. The flags should be included for everyone though, including Americans. - MTC (talk) 18:52, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

In reading WP:FLAG, it seems pretty clear that neither the MLB rosters nor the association football team articles should have flags. But, as MTC pointed out, if we're going to ignore the WP:FLAG guideline (not that I think we should), we should be consistent.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 18:58, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

What part of WP:FLAG are you interpreting in that way? WP:FLAG#Use of flags for sportspeople seems to imply that using flags in team squads/rosters is acceptable. - MTC (talk) 20:00, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm reading #3: "Where flags are used in a table, it should clearly indicate that the flags represent sporting nationality, not nationality." They aren't playing for their countries.... that's all. JustSomeRandomGuy32 (talk) 20:14, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I have to confess I didn't get down that far. I was looking at Wikipedia:FLAG#Do_not_emphasize_nationality_without_good_reason. However, WP:FLAG#Use of flags for sportspeople says "Flags should never indicate the player's nationality in a non-sporting sense; flags should only indicate the sportsperson's national squad or sporting nationality." and "Where flags are used in a table, it should clearly indicate that the flags represent sporting nationality, not nationality." Wouldn't the "sporting nationality" for any Fort Meyers Miracles players be US, as they are playing for a US team? (As opposed to, say, an article on the 2008 Olympic swimming competition, where different competitors represent different countries, and so different flags are appropriate). If that isn't what's meant by sporting nationality, then please enlighten me, because I can't think of a different meaning. Thanks!--Fabrictramp | talk to me 20:17, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Their sporting nationality in this case is the national baseball team they are eligible to play for, that is, the nation they could play for (or do play for) in the Baseball World Cup, World Baseball Classic, Olympic baseball, etc. In most cases this will be the same as their actual nationality. The same applies for the association football example I gave earlier, their sporting nationality is the national football team they could play for in the FIFA World Cup, etc. - MTC (talk) 05:09, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Trying to compare the WBC with the FIFA World Cup is apples-and-oranges. MLB is the real thing, those others are little more than exhibitions. The "national team" concept has very little meaning in baseball, contrasted with its high importance in soccer. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 07:47, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

To me, that sounds like a point of view, albeit a common one among MLB fans. Wikipedia should be neutral. The fact that these competitions exist mean that Wikipedia shouldn't treat baseball any differently from any other sports that have national team competitions, regardless of how important certain fans consider them to be. - MTC (talk) 08:40, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not all that Wiki savvy at this point, which is why I didn't know there are flag guidelines saying don't do it. I just thought it might be cool to note the international players on ball clubs. If guidelines say don't do it, then I won't do it.--Johnny Spasm (talk) 19:22, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

No problem -- no one expects you to have memorized every guideline out there. That's why we have these talk pages. :) --Fabrictramp | talk to me 19:37, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Interlanguage links

• Template:MLBAltPrimaryColor = zh:Template:MLBAltPrimaryColor
• Template:MLBPrimaryColor = zh:Template:MLBPrimaryColor
• Template:MLBSecondaryColor = zh:Template:MLBSecondaryColor
• Template:MLBAltSecondaryColor = zh:Template:MLBAltSecondaryColor

These protect template need Interlanguage links and Template documentation.--Kanesue (talk) 03:42, 18 August 2008 (UTC)