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October 4

Secret room

I found a secret room in my mansion yesterday. I found two skeletons sitting opposed a table with a chess board with some pieces on it between. The game was in progress - not finished. I want to know whose move it was next: black or white. Is it possible to tell? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.74.251.204 (talk) 00:05, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Easy. This sort of thing happens constantly. What's the position of the pieces on the board? Darkspots (talk) 00:07, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Each king on kings bishop 4 . No other pices —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.74.251.204 (talk) 00:11, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Isn't that an illegal position? Whoever moved last just put themselves in check. --Tango (talk) 00:14, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that position can't exist. The skeletons are messing with you. What are they wearing? Do they seem like clowns? Darkspots (talk) 00:20, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Of course the game should have been declared a draw when the last man other than a king was captured. Though I'm not sure it was required to be called a draw — could be that one or the other player had to claim the draw, and if they're both optimistic enough to think they can somehow squeeze out a mate, then perhaps they'd be allowed to play on.

(But then the original poster said there were no other pieces, not no other men, so it's open whether there were pawns.) --Trovatore (talk) 00:28, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

It's possible to make an illegal move; the other player then calls them, or the first player themself realises what they've done, and they then take the piece back and make an alternative move. If they both died after the illegal move, but before it had had a chance to be corrected, that could explain it. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:42, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

A draw is not automatic with only kings on the table, nor can either player claim one. If your opponent refuses to agree a draw, your only option is to play on until the fifty move rule allows you to claim a draw. Or until someone loses on time, which would be the only reason to refuse to agree a draw in this situation. Algebraist 08:40, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually when neither side can checkmate the other it is an automatic draw. Bubba73 (talk), 00:22, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

But if I may approach the original question seriously for a moment, the answer is that from an arbitrary game position on a chessboard it usually is not possible to know whose move it is. Only in some special cases, like if one player is in check, can you tell. For example, the opening (1) e4 e5 will produce the same position as (1) e3 e5, (2) e4. (Or for us old-fashioned types, that's (1) P-K4 P-K4 versus (1) P-K3 P-K4, (2) P-K4.) In a typical position the history of most of the men that have moved will be ambiguous in the same way, so you can't tell how many half-moves there have been. --Anonymous, 05:01 UTC, October 4, 2008.

Tour guides at Glamis Castle tell of such a room, but it is supposed to hold a Lord of the castle and the Devil playing a card game until doomsday, not a chess game. Edison (talk) 05:37, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Is this a joke, or a serious question? GO-PCHS-NJROTC ^(Messages) 01:19, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Car Speaker problem

I am hoping there is someone who knows a little about car audio. My problem is that one of my 6.5 inch Alpine speakers switches from emitting sound, to going silent throughout any song I play. I have replaced the speaker and the problem persists. I have two amps, one for my Kicker sub, and one for my two 6X9 speakers, and my two 6.5 inch Alpine speakers. This driver side speaker is the only speaker that is having problems. What could be causing the speaker to turn on and off, and if it has to do with the music being too loud, why would only this speaker shut off? Thanks for any help! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.7.126.152 (talk) 07:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

In my experience, intermittant electrical problems in cars are nearly always caused by faulty connections or faulty earthing. The intermittant fault is noticed when any movement disturbs the connection, whether that movement is heat exansion, road vibration or loud music. Examine the wiring carefully (at the dashboard end and to the amp and speaker), making sure every connection is very tight. Get new connectors or wiring if necessary. Astronaut (talk) 18:18, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Can you swap the speaker wires at the amp connector? (You might need some special tools to disengage the receiver clips from the plastic plug) If you can do it, swap both the L/R wires (switch both the active and ground wires, (L+/L- with R+/R-), so that the right channel of your stereo goes to the left speakers and vice versa. If the problem changes sides, it's in the stereo. If it stays the same, it's in the wiring or the speakers.

Next, you can use some extra leads - from the wires ending at the left speaker, pull them off that speaker and hook them up to the right speaker instead. (You will have extra wires running across the back of your car when you do this) If the problem is now in your right speaker, it's the wiring that's the problem. Same test to check the wiring on the other side, but opposite hands.

The essence here is to swap sides to figure out where the problem is: either the amp, the wiring (most likely), the speakers, or the connectors. If you're confident with wiring, cut, splice and repair the wires themselves to do these tests - that way you can eliminate the connectors themselves as the problem.

If all this sounds really complex, or you don't know how to use a soldering iron to fix up when you're done testing, or you don't know what electrical tape is: go to a car stereo shop and say "fix it!". Franamax (talk) 01:57, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the ideas, I will first inspect every wire to make sure they are all tightly connected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.7.126.152 (talk) 05:57, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Petrol prices falling in UK??

I don't think I was dreaming; nor was I drunk; but I feel sure I heard a newscaster on TV last night foretelling of an imminent sharp fall in petrol prices to 74 pence per litre (it's currently about £1.10). I think this story was in some way connected to the story of the $810 billion bailout Bill passed by the US Senate and House of Reps., but I can't see the connection. Was I dreaming or did this story get told? And if so, how can it be so? 92.23.56.200 (talk) 11:24, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Google News (news.google.com, or for the UK, news.google.co.uk) is a great place to check for recent news stories. I just searched on "petrol" and "prices", not even using the UK site since the word "petrol" would eliminate North American stories. Apparently the notion that the price might fall to 74p is linked to speculation of a drop over the next few months in the price of crude oil, so not an "imminent sharp fall", although there has just been a smaller sharp drop due to retail price decisions by Asda. --Anonymous, 12:44 UTC, October 4, 2008.

There has been a significant drop in the price of oil already, it just takes time for that drop to filter through to the retail market (interestingly, it doesn't take any time at all for price rises to filter through, odd that...). --Tango (talk) 12:06, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Equally interesting is that French at-the-pump prices change constantly in line with oil prices. So we now pay 1.30 Euros a litre, whereas two weeks ago it was 1.42. Wonder why UK prices remain static for lengthy periods ?````DT —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.216.121.30 (talk) 16:39, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Ever heard of Rip-Off Britain? Petrol overpricing is just the tip of the ice-berg. Ever paid British alcohol prces? Ever paid British Cigarette prices. Ever eaten in a British restaurant? Ever bought a ticket for a British train journey? Ever bought a British car or house? Like I said - Rip-off Britain. And it costs a fortune to heat our homes and wash and dry our clothes. No wonder so many of us retire abroad when the time comes. I shall watch and report on the "dropping" petrol prices over the coming months. 92.23.56.200 (talk) 16:54, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

If this forecast is coming via futures prices, I wouldn't hold my breath. Oil futures have been startlingly inaccurate in recent months. Plasticup ^T/C 18:45, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Let's put this in terms of another commodity - let's imagine a world where we all have to buy candles every 3-7 days. Furthermore, all the candle-sellers have big signs at the road showing their price for candles, denominated (at least in Canada $0.001/1.30) in tenths of a percent. Let's further imagine a situation where if the candle-dealer across the street changes their price by one-percent then everyone goes over there to buy their candles, except the few people too lazy to click the turn signal. What duty do I owe my customers? The duty of losing my business because I was wrong 1 part in 100? When candle-dude across the street starts raising prices, why wouldn't I match that pence for pence? And when wholesale candle prices start coming down, why would I change my retail price, as long as my sales are holding up? At the end of the day, I know I won't get rich selling candles, but I'm damn sure gonna feed my family!

Now let's confound the picture. The government seems to have it in for candle-burners, just as they do for tobacco-burners and alcohol-burners. They even have a term for it: "discretionary expenditure" and sometimes "luxury tax" and also "externalities" - fancy terms for stuff I could actually choose not to do, things that might hurt other people because I choose to undertake those activities. So there's a whacking big tax on my candle business right from the start. Furthermore, there are only three or four places I can reasonably get my candles, because everytime someone else says they'd like to establish a new candle-making facility (let's call it an "oil refinery"), a bunch of people start wailing and moaning about how no-goddam-way-you'll-make-candles-in-my-backyard.

Put that all together. I look at the overall profitability of my candle-selling business. I buy the candles and get them to where you can buy them. Why on earth would I care what you think of my individual pricing decisions? Do you care about me? Are you loyal to the candles I sell, and to my particular candle-shop? Didn't think so. Screw you.

(And refining and marketing margins among the gasoline majors are up a touch (3.5%-->4.5% or so) but not rapacious by any means). Franamax (talk) 02:38, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

My thoughts exactly

92.20.134.220 (talk) 23:34, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

health insurance portability and accountability act

Does HIPAA affect the patient's access to his or her medical records?If so, decribe the effect and the procedure for obtaining access. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dissh9 (talk • contribs) 18:56, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Please don't post your homework questions across multiple web sites. Perhaps you could tell us your thoughts on this question, and the volunteers here might be able to offer assistance with specific areas of difficulty. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:06, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Virgin Forest

I have read about white pines being over 200 ft tall and oaks 8 ft in diameter. Most of them have been cut down, so is there anyway to grow them back? Guides say that a white pines maximum height today is only 80 ft tall, if that is true how did they get so big? Do trees keep getting a bigger diamter until they die? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.119.61.7 (talk) 20:39, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

What species of white pine? Eastern White Pine says that currently extant white pines are up to 180 feet tall. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 01:52, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Once you cut a tree down, there is no practical way to grow it back to the original height. Yes, some trees will keep increasing in height and expanding in diameter. They eventually all reach a natural limit where they become unstable during storms and get blown over, or become old. Only a very small part of a mature tree trunk is alive, the rest consists of dead cells that contribute to the structure. The dead (and some of the live) parts are vulnerable to attack, mostly by insects, but also by birds and other animals. The final height of any tree is a function of the tree species, soil fertility, soil stability, water availability, wind intensity, root system depth, competing species, predation, fire prevalence, probably another dozen factors I've not mentioned. The best way to get tall trees is not to cut them down. You can see this best in untouched old-growth forest, like the Douglas-firs at Cathedral Grove. Very impressive they are too!

This process could be enhanced with careful management. There is a story from Sweden of a project to grow ideal trees for ship masts, and they indeed managed the forest perfectly to produce the ultimate tree - and successfully completed the project well into the steamship age! Franamax (talk) 03:04, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Our article on coppicing has information about what happens to trees when they are cut as part of woodland management and then allowed to regrow. I don't think coppicing has ever been practised much in the Americas though, unless there is a Native American tradition that is not widely known. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:54, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

October 5

self-efficacy - beliefs about personal competence in a particular situation.

What are the differences between self-efficacy and self-esteem? What strategies can teachers use to enhance students’ self-efficacy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kpp112 (talk • contribs) 02:41, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

(Side cmt) Teach their students how to do stuff right, instead of teaching them how to feel good about doing stuff wrong? Franamax (talk) 03:06, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

(ec) This is probably a homework question but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I'll let others get into your 2nd question, but if "self-efficacy" means having confidence in your ability to be effective in what you do, that's a world away from self-esteem, which is about having respect and love for who you are. People often confuse them; if you make mistakes, do things badly etc, there's a tendency to think you're a bad person. Not so. It just means you're mistake-prone, but you yourself are still a fine human being. -- JackofOz (talk) 03:13, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

As Jack said, the difference in the two is belief in your own ability, version belief in your own self worth. They may be related, but not always. For example, I am a total clutz, and don't consider myself all that talented in many areas, but I am a generally easy going guy, and usually feel pretty good about myself. I don't have a very strong sense of self-efficacy (I'm not confident in my abilities) but I have a lot of self esteem (I generally like and respect myself). --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:53, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

There's an article self-esteem here. As to helping people having the confidence to give things a try rather than just praising them for nothing I fully agree with most of the criticisms in the article, self-esteem has become a narcissistic cult producing psychos. Dmcq (talk) 09:12, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Another, evidence-based source for concepts related to self-efficacy is Dr. Carol Dweck of Stanford U. Her 2006 book Mindset: The new psychology of success contrasts people who have what she terms a fixed mindset (e.g., the notion that intelligence or talent is essentially set at birth) and those who have a growth mindset (e.g., people who believe that by learning new information and skills, they can increase their abilities). --- OtherDave (talk) 01:31, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Don't let them read the Ignobel Prize-winning study Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments. --Sean 15:12, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

anal irritation

Ever not wipe your anus so well after defecation and get that scratchy, burning, irritated feeling around and inside your anus? What causes that? Is it unhealthy? And how can you alleviate that? Bilodeauzx (talk) 03:19, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Believe it or not, Wikipedia has an article about itchy assholes. Read away, and you may be informed. I certainly was. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:49, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

You've no idea how good the timing of this question was, thanks!!!--Artjo (talk) 05:55, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Ill advised suggestion by DMCQ removedNil Einne (talk) 10:34, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

If you are asking "is it unhealthy" or "how can you alleviate that" then you should see a doctor not random people on the internet. We can't provide medical advice. As the article above demonstrates, there a lot of possible causes your problem some potentially serious, a professional can best advise you on what specific cause is the issue in your case. Nil Einne (talk) 10:32, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Life Insurance Bond Ratings

What is the bond rating factor for Southern Farm Bureau Life Insurance Co? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.248.33.205 (talk) 04:31, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I found this (very old) and this (quite old) but I think you'll have to subscribe to S&P at www.ratingsdirect.com if you want the updated ratings. Note that the credit ratings given at the company's website are not for bonds. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 11:20, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Accuracy and Reliability of Wikipedia

I had a college psychology professor who told us to never get any information off of Wikipedia because since anyone can edit it, it isn't accurate. She is very well traveled and has lived in Hawaii and Europe for some years, and she said that she talked to a scholarly figure at some sort of school. The man said that he looked himself up on Wikipedia and that the article didn't even has his name correct (along with other mistakes). This was her example to prove that you should never research anything on Wikipedia for academic use because you don't have any idea who edited the article. So I want to know, is Wikipedia really an unreliable source that should be veared away from when doing academic work? Was my professor right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.7.126.152 (talk) 06:02, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, yes and no. You should never use any encyclopedia for any serious scholarly research, except as a "launching off" point, and Wikipedia is no different in that regard. If you are doing serious research (and if you are beyond the 6th grade, you should be considering getting beyond encyclopedias ANYWAYS) you should always be working from source texts(primary sources) and analyses thereof(secondary sources). Wikipedia is a tertiary source, that is its purpose is to compile information from other reliable sources. If you are really doing research, you should be using those sources, not a derivative source like Wikipedia. Now, Wikipedia can be useful in this regard. If you find a particularly well written and well referenced article, go dig up those references. Its not that you should never look at a Wikipedia article, but seriously, if you turned in a paper to your college professor, and cited an Encyclopedia Brittanica article, you should rightly be laughed out of the class. The issue is not Wikipedia per se, but its the use of properly rigorous sources. Again, find the articles and books the writers of good Wikipedia articles used, and then read those yourself. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 06:10, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

(EC)You could do worse than starting with Wikipedia:Researching with Wikipedia and exploring the links from there. I'll try to find you some other stuff too. BrainyBabe (talk) 06:15, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

There are also guidelines at Wikipedia:Academic use and Wikipedia:Citing Wikipedia. Here is an article with several public figues evaluating their own biographies on Wikipedia. There are examples of academics who have assigned their students to edit Wikipedia, reasoning that this is the best way to teach them its strengths and weaknesses. I am trying to find that reference. I think he was in Vancouver, and in the field of Latin American studies, but I'm not sure. BrainyBabe (talk) 06:27, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Found! BrainyBabe (talk) 06:35, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd agree with all the above. I'd also make the point that it's easy to find errors. We did the same here for a while - we had a long list of errors we'd found in Encyclopedia Brittanica. I think that article's been deleted now, because it didn't serve any purpose other than bolstering our own egos. Just as finding tons of EB errors didn't mean that EB is crap, finding one WP error does not mean that the whole project is crap. It's a fairly arrogant and egocentric - not to mention illogical - stance for an academic to say that, because his article is not totally accurate, then the rest of the information we have here is ipso facto unreliable. That would suggest that his article is at the top of the heap in terms of importance; that may be the case in his mind, but few if any people would agree with that. I've met people of recent times who are highly intelligent, very well read, extremely articulate, have very good education including at tertiary level, have well-developed positions on social issues and current affairs, etc - and the word "Wikipedia" still means nothing to them. I explain what it's about, and they warn me it must be a scam or a load of rubbish, because a concept like that couldn't possibly work, or it would be utterly unreliable at best. That's the sort of attitude that prevails out there: "I don't know much or anything about it, therefore it's not worth knowing about". Yeah, right. -- JackofOz (talk) 06:51, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Whilst there are people out there who deliberately add inaccuracies, there are many dedicated editors who will correct inaccuracies when they find them. Unfortunately, there are a lot more articles than there are dedicated editors, so any help is appreciated. One of the mantras here is "So, Fix It". Did the professor who's name we got wrong, fix their article, or did they just moan about how inaccurate Wikipedia was? Astronaut (talk) 11:31, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

As much as I agree with the general "so fix it" mentality, it is generally considered unresonable to expect people to have to correct articles about themselves. We need to get these things right and when people complain that there is a problem with an article about them, which they have the full right to be annoyed about, we need to take their concern seriously, not dismiss their concerns and tell them to fix it themselves. Also, someone editing an article on themselves, even to correct obvious inaccuracies tends to generate controversy. See WP:BLP. Nil Einne (talk) 13:56, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I find the "so fix it" argument particularly useless when we're discussing Wikipedia's overall reliability (even though I fully agree with the "if you find an error, you should fix it" sentiment) -- not that anyone in this discussion presented it as a counter-argument, but I've seen that happen countless times. If you're already familiar enough with a topic to spot a mistake, that's great, but if you reading an article in order to learn about the topic in question, you really need to know that what you're reading isn't just someone's opinion or an outright fabrication. I think reliability can be and often is an issue with Wikipedia, but I also think that in the majority of cases, it's not that difficult to figure out whether a piece of information is reliable or not. Simply checking whether it is sourced tends to go a long way. That's a bit of a burden on the average reader, but still. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 14:17, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Another good point about the "so fix it" issue. In many ways it reminds me of how some Linux proponents like to tell people it's not Linuxes fault that it often has poor hardware support. If it's an argument about the philsophical differences or fundamentals of the design or whatever then sure it's an okay point. But if an end user is saying I don't want to use Linux because it has poor hardware support then it's not a particularly helpful especially when they already have the hardware. (The same applies to Vista of course) Nil Einne (talk) 14:26, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, I'm going to go off on a tangent here: It's not really true anymore that Linux has poor hardware support. Or at least, it's much much less true than it used to be. Not so long ago, installing any Linux distro on a new machine meant long hours, even days, of futzing around with recompiling the kernel and looking for drivers and on and on. Network cards were especially difficult to handle. Now you can just buy a laptop, download Ubuntu, and have a decent shot that it will work pretty much out of the nonexistent box. Oh, you'll still get your chance to fiddle, of course; the hardest thing I remember, last time, was figuring out how to turn off the infernal tap-to-click bug^Wfeature on the touchpad; I had to go into Xorg.conf for that, and admittedly it was easier in Windows. But the barriers to entry have come down so much that if you just want a little more control over your box than Windows gives you, it's worth checking out Linux. --Trovatore (talk) 08:16, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I bought a MIDI interface for my son's PC - it wouldn't work under his friend's Windows XP "Media Edition" [1] - but it worked just great under SuSE 11.0 Linux...so it's not even true that "Everything works under Windows" (not even pre-Vista). But it's been years since I last had to hunt down special drivers - pretty much everything "just works" with modern Linux distro's. SteveBaker (talk) 19:22, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

(EC) I think you're partially missing the point. I highly doubt the professor thought his article was the most important thing ever. Far more likely, he checked out the article on himself since it was the simplist thing to evaluate and the one where he could be resonable certain, without dispute, that he was correct. It's also perfectly normal that people are interested in check out articles about them. So him using his article as an example was probably not because he thought he was the most important thing ever but because it was something which he had evaluated and he knew was clearly wrong. And having someone's name incorrect is one of the more fundamental errors. Note tha I see no evidence the professor was saying the number of errors was distributed evenly acorss wikipedia. More likely, he was suggesting that wikipedia did have errors (which it does), these errors would be hard to detect to someone unfamiliar with the information and it is therefore an unreliable source. Even presuming he only ever checked out one article, that on himself (and we have absolutely no way of knowing if this was all the professor did), it is unresonable to believe that when something can get such a fundamental issue wrong as someone's name it can be perfect in other areas. Likely, the professors personal opinion of how wikipedia works also had something to do with it and while it perhaps works better then he thinks, he was ultimately correct that wikipedia is far from perfect. I note here I see no evidence that the professor was suggesting EB, or any other encylopaedia as a source instead so really it's somewhat of a moot point whether either one is better then the other. Note that while we do cover some areas better then others and the more broadbased topics may be of a better standard then articles on professors, it's difficult for the reader to know precisely whether the article is one of those that is decent or not, beyond relying on FA etc status which is beyond the understanding of most readers. The other issue is of course that by the nature of WP, at any defined moment the article you are reading could be full of shit. You can of course check out the edit history and make sure you use a permanent link to any citation but in reality, most people probanly don't and so from a general POV the professor likely also felt this was a problem and I would say he was correct in this matter too. The fact is academic work doesn't work well with citing and using stuff that is constant changing. There are of course errors in everything but definitely I would say WP, as with perhaps any broad based tertiary source like EB is far worse then more specific sources which I suspect the professor was thinking people should use. Note also that it's not as if the professor went looking for errors. Far more likely he checked out one (the article on himself) or more articles and found errors. In other words, while the professor's views on WP were likely tainted and maybe not 100% inaccurate, he was fundametally right that you have to take great care when using WP as a source in academic work, and it's probably best avoided. Also, whatever level of research the professor may or may not have done, it's not as if this was some sort of paper presented to a conference. It appears to have been more of an off the cuff remark made to a collegue based on personal experience. Nil Einne (talk) 14:26, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

The problem is one of public perception. Almost every time I read about Wikipedia in the press, it is overwhlmingly negative, whether it mentions inaccurate information (like in this case), deliberate vandalism, or Jimbo's latest appearence on TV. Hardly any mention is made of the efforts of thousands of editors who try to ensure the facts are correct and that they can be verified elsewhere. Unfortunately, way too many commentators would rather write about the few articles that are (at that instant) "full of shit" rather than the thousands of articles that are in pretty good shape. I would suggest you can use Wikipedia for academic research, but check out the history of the article, follow up on the sources and satisfy yourself that the article is stable and accurate. Astronaut (talk) 18:17, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Academics dismiss Wikipedia for a variety of reasons. It's true that not everything on Wikipedia is correct, esp. when it comes to biographical details of lesser-known people. That is usually because very few people edit such articles and very few people know the "facts" and so one person's error or misunderstanding or typo can carry a lot of weight. For articles that are heavily trafficked and contain information that many people know, the entries are usually much better—often even better than other encyclopedias, where again relying on the opinion of one or two experts can sometimes inadvertently propagate falsehoods. Use your judgment and if it matters, seek multiple sources of authority—this is good advice with any source of information.

Be aware though that your professor and practically all academics use Wikipedia for simple things like checking dates or finding quick facts. It's an open secret that professors and grad students are heavy traffickers of Wikipedia like everyone else, but they often pretend otherwise and certainly discourage students from relying on it (I've had this exact conversation with many of my professors). And it's also probably true that most academics who have graded student papers have found mangled or incorrect information that is ultimately sourced to Wikipedia—but there's mangled and incorrect information in most student papers, it's just that usually the sources of such errors are more diverse! --98.217.8.46 (talk) 22:37, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Another problem, I think, is that an individual comes to Wikipedia for a specific purpose -- e.g., to learn more about Robert Burns, or the Treaty of Versailles, or the Tokugawa shogunate -- might land on a page edited mainly by monomaniacs, axe-grinders, the agenda-ridden, or out-and-out loonies. Adherents of some microscopic faith will exhaustively edit the page for some saint or doctrine, and by persistence wear down many editors who have lives outside of Wikipedia. The vast majority of articles may not have this problem (though I suspect more than half of all articles do). And the poor fool who reads discussion pages for articles will discover controversy over any number of crucial points, like whether it's the Catholic or the Roman Catholic church or whether the surname Macdonald should always capitalize the first D. It's like dropping into a sports bar to watch the game and hearing two people at the next table arguing about what brand of socks Shoeless Joe Jackson wore -- then returning four weeks later to find the same two psychos arguing about the same two socks. --- OtherDave (talk) 01:42, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

What makes Wikipedia so much better than paper encyclopedias is a complex matter - some things are obvious - we aren't limited on space, we have FAR more editors - errors can be fixed immediately rather than in the next edition (or never if someone just splurge $1000 on a set of Britannica's). More subtle things are that we endeavor (not alway successfully) to list our references - you can look at the bottom of most articles and see a list of books, web sites, etc that were used in writing the article. Britannica doesn't do that. Another cool thing is that we have a "Talk" page for every single article - where you can go and ask the very people who wrote the article for more information or to query a fact. This is a powerful thing.

However, academics do get very upset with us. The reason for that (and I know because I've asked LOTS of them) isn't that Wikipedia is horribly inaccurate. When you pin them to the wall and point out all of the independent studies that show that we are no worse than the leading paper encyclopedias - and actually a LOT better than the worst of them - they switch tack and complain that students are not going to the original source material. When you point out that this would be true of any online encyclopedia - so why aren't they banning Britannica-online and Encarta? And you mention that neither of those lists it's references so that even if the student WANTED to look them up, they couldn't....well, then the REAL reason poppes out: that they are sick to death of students cutting and pasting chunks of Wikipedia into their homework (or at least simply rephrasing what we say without doing any serious work). That used to happen with paper encyclopedias too - but to a much lesser extent because of the fact that you had to go to the library to read paper encyclopedias. While you are in the library, it's just as easy to look up primary sources as it is to copy a chunk out of Britannica. But by the time their students are in the middle of their careers, most books are going to be available online anyway - so the concept of large buildings full of dead trees is on the decline. Personally, I suspect that a lot more copying from encyclopedias was going on in those days - but because there were a re great number of different encyclopedias, it would be very tough for teachers to figure out whether the essay had been copied.

But this ISN'T a problem with Wikipedia - it's a problem with how their students behave. Telling students that Wikipedia is banned because it's incorrect; is to lie to your students and shut off what is (in truth) an exceedingly valuable resource - one that has not been equalled thoughout all human history. (Try going to your local library to find out who is the voice actor for Crusty the Clown - or whether it snows on Mars (it does - but we only found that out last week!). Like it or not, this encyclopedia is around for keeps - it's going to be the number one repository of all human knowledge for the next hundred years - with things like the iPhone and the Amazon Kindle - you can literally have all of human knowledge in your pocket. The correct response to this is not to say "Don't use it" - but to start teaching students HOW to use it effectively. What they should say to students is this: "Go first to Wikipedia if you want - but for anything that seriously MATTERS - make sure to examine the list of references and go and read the original sources in the library or out on the web. If the article is inadequately referenced THEN DO NOT USE THAT ARTICLE." They tend to forget the purpose of teaching - they are there to prepare students for their working career - and failing to use Wikipedia adequately throughout their career will hurt their long-term prospects compared to people who know how to do research using modern tools.

Bonus points should be offered to students who find fault with the Wikipedia article after looking up the references. This will encourage them to actually check the facts and also let them see first-hand that Wikipedia (like all encyclopedias) is sometimes wrong.

At my son's last school (which is one of the top ten rated high schools in the whole of the USA), they now require all non-fiction essays to be accompanied by a list of references against which the essay could be fact-checked. That's the correct way to deal with the rise of the Internet - and Wikipedia in particular.

SteveBaker (talk) 03:42, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Hear, hear! That's an outstanding commentary, Steve. My only quibble, and it's a positive one - Wikipedia is going to be around for a lot longer than 100 years. -- JackofOz (talk) 07:07, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't mind returning late to the party -- after all, any addition will add to the archive. Here is another academic who is encouraging his students to USE Wikipedia -- i.e. to contribute, and thus become more critical "consumers" of information. Jim McClellan is in the field of training future journalists. BrainyBabe (talk) 19:12, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Gutting a rabbit

I plan on a little rabbit hunting soon. I've found resources on how to skin the rabbit, involving chopping off feet and head and taking off the fur like a coat...but have no found a decent resources (preferably with photos) that covers what/how to remove the innards. Thanks in advance for advice. --Kickstart70-T-C 07:09, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

It's somewhere in the first few chapters of John Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath. BrainyBabe (talk) 09:10, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Having never done this myself, I don't know how good this instructional video really is, but I'd be pretty confident about giving it a shot after watching this. (I have no doubt that I wouldn't be anywhere near as fast or neat as that guy, though!) -- Captain Disdain (talk) 16:55, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

That helps greatly, thank you! --Kickstart70-T-C 17:10, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

It's not that different from dressing a squirrel. Google has lots of suggestions. See BassPro Shops' suggestions. It is important to bleed a slaughtered animal quickly, so blood does not coagulate in the meat, and avoid spilling intestinal contents on the meat you plan to eat. Remember step 1: "Catch the rabbit." Yum! That said, there is a rabbit which lives in my (urban) back yard which I would not dream of harming. Edison (talk) 20:59, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

If all else fails, this is a good book. --Sean 15:21, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Perfect round

Why is a perfect round of golf 18 under par when it's possible to get even lower by eagling/albatrossing some holes? 58.165.15.180 (talk) 12:14, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

It is explained in the lead paragraph of Perfect round like this: "(it) is the lowest score generally accepted as being in the realm of possibility among professional golfers". What I understand by this, is that whilst pros do score eagles and albatrosses, they don't do it consistently enough to push their score below 18 under par over all 18 holes. In fact, the lead paragraph goes on to say "(it) has never been achieved by a professional golfer in a professional event". From what I've seen on TV, a score of 18 under par is difficult enough to achieve over a 4-round tournament. Astronaut (talk) 12:41, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Chuck Norris could do it...with a putter. Clarityfiend (talk) 17:57, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

A "perfect" round of gold would be, conceptually, a score of 18, since you would be hitting a hole in one on every hole, but I doubt if that's ever been done. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 20:02, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

No bounce

Has anyone ever gotten a far shot into the hole without the ball ever bouncing? 58.165.15.180 (talk) 12:14, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

We're going to need some context here. What ball? What hole? How far is far? Plasticup ^T/C 15:27, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Judging by the previous question immediately above from the same person, I suspect the questioner is talking about golf. Specifically whether anyone has ever got a hole in one (or other similarly long shot) without the ball bouncing. While I can't say for sure, my OR feeling is that the velocity of the ball and hardness of the hole lining, would cause the ball to bounce out again. Now if the ball hit the flag first and "trickled" down the flag pole, that might be a "funny". Astronaut (talk) 15:38, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Why not look at some examples? 190.244.186.234 (talk) 12:14, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

shafting work in ships

what are the basic principles in shating work in ships? sumal (talk) 14:18, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

12 seconds on Google (I timed it) and I found this. Phew, I think I need a rest. Plasticup ^T/C 15:30, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Allmusic Guide mirror

Are there any decent mirror sites for allmusic.com? It never works well for me. I know answers.com has some of AMG's content, but it is not complete. --71.239.110.144 (talk) 16:46, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't know of any mirror sites. It's one of the best music sites on the web, so persevere. And personally I've never had any problems accessing it. Maybe the problem is at your end. Some websites don't perform particularly well with certain browsers. Have you got the latest version of Firefox? --Richardrj ^{talk email} 07:44, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Allmusic does take a long time to load, sometimes. Just be patient, and hopefully eventually it will load. Their front page is very busy. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 20:07, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Maroon Clowns

Question moved to Science desk, where you are more likely to find editors to help. Just follow the link. Gwinva (talk) 03:58, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I think this is more of a question for the science desk than miscellaneous. If I knew how to move this question or link you there, I would. But alas, I don't. Cherry Red Toenails (talk) 03:46, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Done. (In future, just cut question using "ctrl-X". Start a new section on required page and paste question: "ctrl-V". Once that is saved, you can link to it with wikilinks, as I did, or copy the url.) Gwinva (talk) 03:58, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I edit conflicted with someone who answered, so I've moved the answer to Science desk, hope that's alright, Plasticup! Gwinva (talk) 03:58, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

virtual console

I have super mario world 3 and everytime i turn off my wii, the progress is erased. Why does this happen?--Dlo2012 (talk) 22:02, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Many games of this vintage, for either technical or paradigm reasons, have no save function; you're expected to play the game the whole way through in one sitting. According to our Super Mario Bros. 3 article, the SNES and gameboy remakes were saveable, but the original NES version - as emulated on the Wii virtual console - was not. FiggyBee (talk) 05:56, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Some virtual console games have a primitive save feature that Nintendo has added on for the Wii. I don't know if Mario World 3 has such a feature, but if it does you'd find it in the (HOME) menu. APL (talk) 13:21, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Diplomatic bag acceptance

Can a diplomatic bag be rejected for carriage by an airline operator, and must this bag always be accompanied?

Omowright (talk) 22:39, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Our article on the subject, doesn't discuss this at all, I see. A Straight Dope dope column titled "Is there such a thing as a diplomatic pouch?" discusses them in more detail, and it seems to imply (though doesn't explicitly say so) that the bag doesn't need to be accompanied: "It's a means by which governments and their ambassadors can send items to one another without fear that the goods will be detained or inspected by foreign governments." If an ambassador sends something to his government, that means he isn't carrying it himself. Then again, he could have a courier carry the bag -- but considering that the "bag" may actually be a crate, chances are it's going to be out of his sight during transport anyway, so the point is a little moot -- on a practical level, it makes little difference whether someone is accompanying in the bag, if it needs to be checked in and is transported in the plane's cargo hold, only to emerge at the other end. Anybody could mess with it when it's out of sight; you might as well just drop it off at the airport and have someone else pick it up once the plane lands.

The Straight Dope article doesn't say anything about an airline operator refusing to carry the bag. Personally, though, I would be very surprised to hear about an airline operator doing something like that independently, without explicit instructions from a pretty influential government agency; messing with international diplomacy on the company's own initiative isn't going to endear the company to the powers that be. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 00:40, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Article 27 of the 1961 Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations says you can entrust it to the captain of the airplane (if s/he has official authorization). Clarityfiend (talk) 03:02, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Related subquestion: what is meant by inspecting? If the bag is passed through a X-ray or Geiger counter is that an inspection? What is an enemy country that still has diplomatic ties smuggles an atomic bomb into your country? Mr.K. (talk) 11:08, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

That straight dope artcle says they can't be X-rayed. It also says that some countries set a maximum weight for diplomatic pouches, so that would probably eliminate your atom bombs, as they're rather bulky in real life. They're also likely to set off radiation detectors and various stages in the process, which I'm sure would cause an incident. 72.10.110.103 (talk) 13:15, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

You underestimate the wily Communist! --Sean 15:47, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

What's funny about that particular TIME article is that it came out and nobody seemed to follow up on it, like it was just some charming anecdote about Kennedy. Anyway, the smallest nuke on record as having actually been assembled, the US's W54, wouldn't fit into a pouch (it could fit into a footlocker, though, and could be carried by one person). One could imagine trying to get piece by piece in a series of pouches, though. The heaviest single bit would be the core but that probably wasn't too large (even the clunky old Fat Man core was only the size of a grapefruit or so). --140.247.11.21 (talk) 13:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I believe there is not a single "diplomatic bag"; rather any container can be designated as diplomatic traffic and be protected to some extent. Until recently my parents worked in a British Embassy, and all their personal mail went to them by diplomatic bag - but I imagine with nothing especially secret in it a bag of personal mail was probably just loaded onto a plane (I believe always British Airways, a hangover from their time as a state-run enterprise) with only paper protection. By contrast, there exist the Queen's Messengers who hand-carry cases of secret documents to British missions around the world. Probably far fewer now that there is a Foreign Office email system, but I doubt that they've been disbanded entirely. These messengers are never separated from their bags - I guess in theory they could be physically assaulted and the material stolen, but if a foreign government has abandoned the pretense of diplomacy to that extent they might as well just blow up the embassy.

In summary, and to answer the actual question, I would say that some bags are accompanied and some are not, depending on their contents. The airline carrying them would generally be the country concerned's flag carrier, with an standing agreement (possibly even a legal requirement) to carry that country's diplomatic traffic. So they're highly unlikely to suddenly refuse a given bag. 81.187.153.189 (talk) 22:45, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

UK Universities

What would you say are some good UK universities for Engineering? I probably want to do electrical/electronic engineering but would probably prefer to do a course like that of cambridge where you just do engineering and later on specialise. So good universities for either course... Thanks --RMFan1 (talk) 22:41, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how much it's changed - but the University of Kent at Canterbury used to have a scheme whereby you enrolled for a particular specialisation - but your entire first year was spent doing more or less unspecialised science courses and at the end of that year you could opt to change your specialisation. That sounds like the kind of thing you're looking for. SteveBaker (talk) 03:02, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

You might find it helpful to speak with a careers advisor, who will have access to all that sort of information. I do know that Durham, a highly reputable university, offers an "integrated programme" with general engineering in first years, with specialisation later. Gwinva (talk) 03:36, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, bear in mind that your choice of university should be based on a number of factors, only one of which is the quality of the teaching. You can have the best engineering course in the country, and you'll still have a bad three years if you end up in a boring place where there is no social life. Look for somewhere that you can actually bear to live in. Read the articles here on Wikipedia about the cities. And invest in a copy of The Student Book. I applied to university more years ago than I care to remember, and this book was a great help to me. Good luck. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 07:41, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Cambridge has a very, very, high reputation for electronic engineering. Strawless (talk) 16:22, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Cambridge has a very high reputation for a lot of things, not always deserved. Depending on what matters to you, it's worth researching whether the course is offering what you want and is really going to be the best for you. For example, it isn't really best for chemical engineering even though people will generally be very happy to sign up for it (because it's Cambridge). So make sure you do the research, go on some open days (they're a really good way of getting an impression of a place and a feel for whether you'd be happy there), check up on the things they tell you on the open day (like whether hugely expensive pieces of equipment they show you actually get used), etc. 130.88.64.189 (talk) 12:26, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

There are university ranking tables which you can consult (for instance, from The Times). Once you have narrowed down your choices, look at the university's website for a course description to see if you like the way it's structured (how specific does it get, and at what point? Is there a year in industry / abroad option?). Don't forget to look at the entry requirements - if your A-Level average is CCC, it probably won't do much good to apply to Cambridge. — QuantumEleven 10:02, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

What makes the Icelandic economy so volatile?

[2] Looks like there are unique issues. 23:56, 5 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.81.78.179 (talk)

Actually, that looks like the exact same issue that is plaguing the US and Europe. An unregulated financial sector over-extended itself, and when the sub-prime crisis precipitated a credit shortage, they didn't have the short-term reserves to handle it. Plasticup ^T/C 01:34, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Iceland has gotten into a lot of trouble because of the carry trade. See this Economist story that mentions it. There are a few countries that have a high current account deficit that have also seen their currency rise in value, which is counter-intuitive normally—look at America, whose massive current account deficit caused mostly by consumer spending has caused its currency to decline over the last few years, which is the normal thing to have happen. Iceland, in contrast, has kept interest rates high to control inflation. So, in the carry trade, investors borrow a currency with low interest rates like the yen, and buy interest-bearing securities in a place like Iceland. Any bobble in exchange rates can wipe a carry trade investor out, so an appreciation in the value of the yen means that everyone dumps their Iceland bonds, which can spark a selloff of investments by domestic investors as well. Do that enough in a smaller economy and you've got problems—Iceland had a big crisis in 2006 because of this. Now they have an overvalued currency which is tanking fast as money is getting pulled out for safer investments. Darkspots (talk) 07:33, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Try reading Njal's Saga. Strawless (talk) 16:04, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

October 6

Immigration to Canada

What is needed to immigrate to Canada? I may move there. What ID will I need? I'm asking for another person. Powerzilla (talk) 00:02, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Immigration is a long, complex and expensive process. It's not like you show up at the border with a driver's license and bang, you're in. See http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/index.asp for more info. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:29, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

That depends on the length of your stay. If you just want to visit for a few weeks you can travel on a tourist visa or even a visa waiver. Plasticup ^T/C 01:39, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I should point out that under normal parlance, someone who travels to a country for a few weeks as a tourist isn't by any stretch of the imagination immigrating to Canada. Also you will need a passport to enter Canada which you obviously don't have if you have no ID (although I appreciate this detail wasn't clear at the time) Nil Einne (talk) 18:06, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Just seen it. How does one get the necessary documentation and still be "legal" in Canada? I've heard about how US soldiers from the Viet Nam War got into Canada because they opposed that war.Powerzilla (talk) 01:51, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

My client claims that she has no ID due to have been in a cult that has heavy references to the NWO. There are cults like that all over the US. How can she get the required ID then? Powerzilla (talk) 02:45, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I have heard of people like that writing to his/her Senator's office. Plasticup ^T/C 03:31, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Assuming your client is a U.S. citizen and resident, a practical way of moving forward with establishing ID is to get her birth certificate (good link). Then you need to put together all possible documents establishing her identity (even things like utility bills in her name, lease agreements, anything that's "official" with her name and address) and get either a passport or a non-driver's license in her state of residence (a passport is more to the point, but if it seems easier to get the non-driver's id, do that first, then the passport's a slam-dunk). An interim step might be to get a social security card, see this link. Darkspots (talk) 07:09, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi Powerzilla. You refer to your 'client'. Are you charging money to advise someone on immigration to Canada, and then getting that information from Wikipedia? If so then I hope you are making that clear to your client, or you are committing fraud. Here] is the official website on Canadian immigration. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:42, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure where you live, but in my country you are allowed to do research without being guilty of fraud. Plasticup ^T/C 02:09, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

In my country, which is Canada, there is a huge problem in which prospective immigrants are preyed upon by unscrupulous people who claim to be able to 'expedite' their immigration process. Sometimes they will claim that the immigrants need their services to be able to immigrate. They do have no special knowledge, and do nothing that cannot be done by the applicant, yet frequently charge huge fees. So basically it's illegal to represent yourself as an 'immigration agent' without appropriately making the client's right clear. And it's not the "doing research" that's the problem, it's the charging money for something the immigrant can do themselves without being honest that that is what they are doing. Powerzilla, if you are legitimately doing research please accept my apologies. If you are charging a prospective immigrant for services they don't need, be warned. DJ Clayworth (talk) 03:50, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Force of habit. I was a paranormal investigator. No fraud here. Powerzilla (talk) 03:30, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I might go there myself, concerning some UFO and Bigfoot incidents that have been reported there. Some people, when they hear you are a investigator, they assume you go after deadbeats and women who commit adultery. Like people who hear you are a doctor assuming you are a physician, when your doctorate is something else, like astronomy or literature. Powerzilla (talk) 03:35, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I did not charge her anything at all. Told her that I was NOT that kind of investigator, just the kind that hunts UFOs, Bigfoot, not what she had in mind. Powerzilla (talk) 03:42, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

When she mentioned that she was in a cult, I thought she was talking about a "flying saucer cult", not a religious cult like the Tony Alamo cult. Thanks for the assisstance. Some people, go figure. Powerzilla (talk) 03:49, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

kit homes

What is the largest kit home available by mail? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.155.27.93 (talk) 00:47, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Try asking these folks. -hydnjo talk 02:43, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

excuse me sir, but you're sitting in my seat.

Can anyone explain to me why is it that when people sit in the same seat two or more times in a church they expect to be able to have the exact same seat every time upon their return? I'm writing a paper on social norms, and this bizarre, yet commonly accepted 'norm' is one of my topics of interest. Where did this belief originate and why is it such a big deal in our churches today? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.15.211.76 (talk) 01:56, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

The seat becomes saved and it's always been that way. -hydnjo talk 02:52, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

In a Synagogue, one should sit in the same seat every time (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim, chapter 90 paragraph 19). This is learned from the actions of the patriarch Abraham (Talmud, Berachot 6b)Simonschaim (talk) 05:16, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

When my parents and I would go to church when I was growing up we often sat in the same seat. Although, if someone were already there, we didn't raise a fuss and nothing was said about it. Basically, I never encountered what the OP is theorizing. Dismas|^(talk) 05:34, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Pretty much as Dismas discribes it in our (Catholic) church. -hydnjo talk 06:24, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Is such a phenomenon restricted to church? As I recall, people tended to sit in the same seats at school, at uni lectures, even on the bus... I've even met people who try and sit in the same cinema seat each time they go. Is it just that we're all creatures of habit? Gwinva (talk) 06:29, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

But to refer specifically to churches, it was once a tradition for families to purchase pews, and to always sit in them. Some old churches still have the brass name plates. Gwinva (talk) 06:29, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

here's one church's pew plan showing who was renting them. another. C.S. Lewis always sat in the same pew as well. Gwinva (talk) 06:37, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Agree with that as well. Including how we arranged ourselves in a car and in the restaurant booth. Hadn't thought about those before but the "arrangement" was indeed pervasive, even in casual environments (remember the The Simpsons couch gag) -hydnjo talk 06:53, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

On training courses that go for more than a day, where people are free to choose their own seats, the default assumption of most people seems to be that they'll stay in the same seat as they had on Day 1, unless it's taken when they walk in in the morning. But there's a minority who have the opposite assumption: they'll take a different seat every day, unless there's no choice, or they particularly want to sit next to a friend or someone they're hoping will become a friend. It's probably no surprise to most people here that I'm in the latter group. Because I also like to turn up only a minute or two before scheduled starting time (a hearing problem makes it very difficult for me to converse in a room where everyone is talking; nothing to do with being a misanthrope), there's usually little or no choice as to where to sit on Day 2 (or even Day 1, for that matter), and it usually means I'm sitting where I was on Day 1. However, whenever I have managed to snaffle a different seat, nobody's ever asked me to kindly move. They walk in, look terribly surprised for a moment or two when they see "their" seat is occupied, and then make alternative arrangements. -- JackofOz (talk) 07:01, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

At one training course I attended, friends were deliberately split up on the first morning because the trainer wanted people to mix with others. So I and a few others moved back together, but we were told to move apart again. How I loathed that course... --Richardrj ^{talk email} 07:46, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Now that's interesting, Richard. I've always had a secret fantasy that if ever I become a trainer (which is increasingly likely since I've recently acquired a training qualification), I'd walk in when my victims have all got their seating sorted out and their notepads and laptops and coffee mugs and name tags and writing implements all nicely arranged on their desks, and after introductions, my first requirement would be for them to pack up their stuff and move to different seats, and not sitting next to either of the people they're currently sitting next to. If anyone objected, they'd be ejected on the grounds of disrupting the class. They'd soon find out who's boss. This would be repeated after lunch. I wouldn't do it from Day 2 onwards (assuming any of them actually came back) because by then I would have achieved the level of respect I demand.  :) :) But in all seriousness, I would encourage people to not always sit in the same seat, as a metaphor for keeping an open mind and being prepared to approach whatever I'm teaching them from a variety of different perspectives. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:35, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

If you ever teach such a course please let us know ahead of time so that we can all completely fail to attend. APL (talk) 02:47, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

That's OK, APL. I'm only interested in training people who actually want to be there anyway, and who wouldn't be so emotionally limp-wristed as to find my unorthodox methods off-putting. That may mean I'll have to find a viable group of very special people, but I'm sure the long and arduous search will be worth it.  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 03:13, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Some of us would find that a very anxious experience, and would prefer you to provide several seating plans or some rule to follow, on this hypothetical training course, so that we don't feel we are imposing our presence on the mean "cool kids" who somehow never seem to go away, no matter how high up you travel. 130.88.64.189 (talk) 12:19, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Making people anxious per se is not what I have in mind, but I do encourage people to get out of their comfort zones, because that's where the real learning takes place. If anyone really needed me to tell them where to sit, I don't think I'd be all that keen on training them anyway. My interest is in adult learners, and I assume that's who I'm dealing with unless they produce evidence to the contrary. My encouragement would be just that, nothing mandatory about it. I'm sure some would sit in a different seat, but others wouldn't. I'd be worried if absolutely everyone responded to my encouragement (which would suggest a class of robots), or if absolutely nobody did (which would either suggest a class of rebels, or that I was mumbling and didn't realise it). -- JackofOz (talk) 00:17, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Try earning the respect of your classes by being a good teacher. Being a megalomaniac is not going to earn you any respect. --Tango (talk) 00:28, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

To 68.15.211.76: I hope that we've added some dimension to your paper. -hydnjo talk 07:13, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Group influence is very strong. When I joined a two-year diploma course we were split into two classes. Each, supposedly, of 15. But somehow we had 16 and the other group had 14. The Tutor arrived one hour into the first day... explained... asked for a volunteer to shift groups. The class growled. Nobody would go. After just an hour and not knowing anybody before, we had formed. So for two years tutors had to cope with a 16 and a 14 class.86.211.111.218 (talk) 15:49, 6 October 2008 (UTC)DT

I'm a teacher, and I see the same phenomenon among students. I suspect it's a territorial instinct thing. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 16:17, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Jack's fantasy reminds me of when I was a high school student. In each class we were expected to take the same seats every time, to help the teacher keep track of us. Some teachers let us sit where we liked the first time and then just had us repeat that arrangement, but others asked us to sit in alphabetical order by name to make it easier for themselves. One year on the first day the first teacher asked us to sit alphabetically and called the roll as we reseated ourselves. Then the second teacher did the same. When we got to the third teacher's room and his first words to us were something like "Hello. I'm going to seat you alphabetically", everyone got up and moved to the correct seat. The teacher commented to the effect that he was glad to see we knew our alphabet.

question

This question was more a science question, so I moved it over to the Science desk. Check it out there! -- Captain Disdain (talk) 13:25, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

stock and bond shop

what is a stock and bond shop? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.149.26.59 (talk) 17:21, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

One meaning for the phrase describes a business that sells (and likely also buys) old certificates for stocks and bonds that no longer have any value aside from that of an interesting, often elaborate, piece of paper. These certificates represent companies -or governments, possibly- now defunct. I have a lot of such certificates from a Mexican Railway scheme of the early 1900s, for example. ៛ Bielle (talk) 17:37, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

eggplant turning blue: rotten?

The outside of eggplant in leftovers from a meal (= cooked!) has turned blue--almost the color of fish scales. Does that mean the eggplant is rotten, or can that happen from some harmless chemical process depending on the ingredients? The dish has been sitting in our fridge for some days, but I've never seen eggplant turn that color before, and it doesn't stink or anything. :) Any ideas? --Ibn Battuta (talk) 17:50, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, considering that a whole eggplant costs about US$2.00, its probably not worth the potential explosive diarrhea to find out. I'd just ditch it and get some fresh eggplant. Or you could invest in about 50 cents worth of seeds, and you'll grow enough eggplants to make your friends start to hate to see you (hey! Want some free eggplant!) --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:01, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Um, first of all it's not about the raw eggplant, but about a prepared dish (and I'm sort of busy at the moment)... and moreover, I'm just curious. At least I don't think that those guys asking questions about black holes, obscure poets, or building nuclear bombs need them for their survival... :) --Ibn Battuta (talk) 18:25, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

True, but no matter how tasty it was, I generally avoid eating food that has changed to colors not normally expected. Of course, you could always sacrifice your body for science, do the experiment, and let us know how it turned out... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 19:44, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

If you survive, that is. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:10, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

And, if you don´t, than a brief report from the state of life after death would be of some interest to us regulars in answering relevant queries on this aubergine (ie. turning blue) posthumuous condition. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:29, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

That could also be called a "novomundane" report. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:57, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

That would also satisfy another pending RefDesk request. Plasticup ^T/C 23:00, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Six sigma black belt

hi. if anyone working with the six sigma project can help me explain the yield calculation and presentation through minitab.i have been struggling with the cohesive implementation of both.Vikram79 (talk) 19:29, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

day of the week

what day of the week was november 17 2001 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.228.223.162 (talk) 22:47, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Our article November 17 says it was a Saturday. Darkspots (talk) 22:52, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Wow, there's even an article with each day - I was going to suggest www.timeanddate.com - which confirms it and is a great calendar site.Somebody or his brother (talk) 22:55, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure we would have the articles anyway—people love the this-date-in-history thing—but way back a few weeks ago when date-linking was considered cool, we needed to have those articles to make dates be blue. Darkspots (talk) 12:09, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Heh, should I get a t-shirt saying I wasn't date-linking before date-linking was uncool? —Tamfang (talk) 06:40, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I was going to suggest 2001#November. Useight (talk) 22:57, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I was going to suggest asking Kim Peek, but that would involve knowing his phone number. -- JackofOz (talk) 02:02, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

That's OK - he probably remembers your phone number. SteveBaker (talk) 11:57, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how Mac works, but if you're using Windows, you can double click on the time in the lower right hand corner of your screen, and change the month and year to anything within the last x years (I don't know how far back that goes) and you can see the calendar for that month and year. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 01:47, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

On (most) Unix based systems (including Macs), the program cal should be installed by default. Open up the command line and type cal 11 2001 to see a calendar of November 2001. Cal goes from the year 1 to 9999. - Akamad (talk) 02:14, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

"cal" is a venerable and much-loved UNIX tool. It's party-trick is: "cal 9 1752". SteveBaker (talk) 11:57, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

NurseryRhyme: It goes from 1980-2099 on my Windows XP. bibliomaniac15 03:12, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Although the UNIX "cal" command goes from 1 to 9999, there are some caveats. First, it assumes that the first day when the Gregorian calendar was used was September 14, 1752, which is only correct for the British Empire. Second, it assumes that leap years in the Julian calendar were always every 4 years, although it actually took the Romans a bit of time before they got it right, so for example 4 AD was not really a leap year. Third, it assumes that the year has always begun on January 1, which is wrong even for the British Empire; I'm not sure if there's any place for which it's been continuously true since 1 AD. And fourth, of course, it's always possible that in the next 8000 years there will be further improvements to the pattern of leap years. --Anonymous, 05:45 UTC, October 7, 2008 AD.

GNU cal uses 1752 and some other week number system if the locale is english; 1582 and ISO week number otherwise (by default, can also be specified on the command line). BSD (ncal) has a list of when all countries switched, picked based on the country code in LC_TIME - default to US if it's not found in the list, if the locale is C/POSIX/ASCII/US-ASCII, or if there is no country code. I can't find what it does for week numbers. --Random832 (contribs) 14:25, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Note on Vista it goes from 1900 to 2099. Also, you can click at the top to 'zoom out' as it were until you get to a range of dates (1990-1999, 2000-2009 etc) to find the date you want easier Nil Einne (talk) 18:00, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

October 7

Wikipedia calendars

The previous question brought to my attention the calendars that Wikipedia uses with each week beginning on Monday. Most of the printed calendars I have seen have each week beginning on Sunday. Is there a reason that Wikipedia's begin on a Monday? Was there discussion about this? —D. Monack ^talk 03:24, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I can't really answer your question, but since we got an edit conflict I will point out that I got in trouble in primary school for starting the day of the week with Monday instead of Sunday. From the argument that resulted between my parents and the teacher it seems like starting on Monday is something that originated in Ireland/England and has some religious significance to it, whereas starting on Sunday is the more accepted format. I personally go with Monday being the first day of the week, because otherwise Sunday is more of a weekstart rather than a weekend. 138.130.144.33 (talk) 03:27, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

"is more of a weekstart rather than a weekend." Every line segment has two ends. APL (talk) 13:13, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

My understanding is that Sunday, being the Christian sabbath, was traditionally considered the most important day of the week, and thus was considered to be the start of the week. The concept of the "weekend", which just happens to include Sunday, is a relatively recent arrival, and only because the majority of employment conditions stopped requiring people to work on at least a part of Saturday. I can still remember when mail was delivered on a Saturday, and there were 2 deliveries on week days. Now it's one delivery on weekdays, then you wait till Monday. The "working week" starts on Monday; but many places and people still regard the "week" as beginning on Sunday. But it's not formalised anywhere, and it's essentially arbitrary, so in a particular context you can start the week on any day you please. -- JackofOz (talk) 06:26, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

You don't get mail on Saturdays? Gwinva (talk) 07:35, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Not snail mail, anyway. Do you? -- JackofOz (talk) 07:39, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

In the States we do, in Canada no. --Trovatore (talk) 07:40, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

UK yes; NZ yes. Gwinva (talk) 08:40, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Wow. We changed all that back in, I think, the mid-70s. I wouldn't like to say whether this is progress or the reverse. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:53, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the idea of Sunday as the first day is not so much because it's the most important, as that according to Genesis, the very first day was a Sunday. God rested on the seventh day, which was Saturday (the original Sabbath).

By the way, one possible interpretation of "weekend" is like "bookends" -- they're the days at both ends of the week, not just the latter end. --Trovatore (talk) 07:27, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

That doesn't work - "bookends" is plural - the thing at each end is a bookend, the two together are bookends. Saturday isn't "A weekend" - and Saturday and Sunday together are not "Weekends". For your theory to be correct, both Saturday and Sunday would be weekends and we have two weekends each week...but we don't. SteveBaker (talk) 11:43, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd always understood that the business week ran from Monday, whereas an actual week ran from Sunday. This fits with the business diaries I use, in which a week covers 2 sides, 3 days on the first side, 4 on the second, with the weekend squashed into 1 day's worth - I guess because you were unlikely to have appointments on the weekend. --WORM | MЯOW 07:36, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

We don't seem to have an article, but we do have a short section on this. It fails to mention that in some places, weeks begin on Thursday. Algebraist 08:40, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

See ISO 8601, particularly the week numbering part. To number weeks you have to define when a week starts, and ISO defines the start day as Monday. 195.35.160.133 (talk) 13:14, 7 October 2008 (UTC) Martin.

Help With Meat

Ok I'm in really deep shit because I just cooked about 10 frankfurts for my dinner when I was only meant to cook 3. I'm not up to eating them all, and my roomate's going to kill me if I throw them out. Can I put them back into the fridge? If not what can I do with them? 138.130.144.33 (talk) 03:27, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Sure, just put them in the fridge and reheat them tomorrow. Plasticup ^T/C 03:32, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, franks are pre-cooked. All you really did was warm them up. You can safely eat the cold, straight from the store, as well. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 03:36, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Note that the gustatory quality is unlikely to be improved by repeated heating and chilling, but the nutritional content may remain about the same, in terms of the grams of protein, carbohydrate and fat. Edison (talk) 04:14, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, I only know two frankfurts (Frankfurt am Main and Frankfurt an der Oder). Where are the other eight? --Trovatore (talk) 07:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

It's the Australian term for a frankfurter, according to Frankfurt (disambiguation). Algebraist 08:35, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure at Harry Frankfurt's family reunions, there are more Frankfurts than at a Walla Walla weenie roast. Darkspots (talk) 12:15, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

There'd be no weenies there. We call them "little boys" (snigger), "saveloys", or "cocktail franks". But there may be many weenies in this Walla Walla. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:48, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

As a rule of thumb, you can safely reheat food once. More than that is risky (every time you heat and cool it down it spends a while being warm which is when germs grow the most). --Tango (talk) 19:46, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Question regarding academic dishonesty

Note:Question title changed to a more descriptive title --Jayron32.talk.contribs 12:16, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I know someone who cheated on a test of Alevels and i am very angry because he got an A he does not deserve and i had to work hard to get my A. How can i report this to OCR? --JD77 (talk) 12:12, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Free advice you didn't ask for: karma will bite him in the ass eventually, you don't have to lift a finger. Let it go, these people are their own rewards. Darkspots (talk) 12:18, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

For non-UK readers, A levels are the examinations upon which entrance to university is based and OCR is one of the bodies that conduct the exams. To the questioner: you need to gather evidence you have that the person cheated and then write to OCR with the details. Send a copy to the examining centre (i.e. the school or college.) You can make the report anonymously but if you want it to be taken seriously then eventually you may need to reveal your name. If you are not absolutely sure that this person cheated, then you should not make the complaint. But if you think there are weaknesses in the system so that cheating is possible, you should write to OCR and QCA about this. Itsmejudith (talk) 12:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

The OP may not have any evidence that they can give OCR except their own written statement. They may have seen the person consulting notes during an exam, for example. That is not provable by the OP but that does not mean the matter should end there. The OP should be able to write to OCR with their suspicions and OCR should investigate the allegation themselves. Once an allegation has been made the onus should be on OCR to satisfy themeselves as to whether it is true or not. Yes, that might mean that OCR could get a large number of baseless allegations which they would have to investigate but I think that comes with the territory. See Whistleblower. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 12:41, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

If I were in this position, I would discuss my concerns with the (alleged) cheater and ask that he cancel his score and retake the test. He will probably take it as implicit that if he doesn't do so you might tell the testing board, you will have done him a kindness both in giving him the benefit of the doubt and giving him an opportunity to correct his ways if he did in fact cheat, and it might be more effective since you probably don't have any incontrovertible evidence against him. --Sean 14:10, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Or said cheater will punch you in the mouth and then tell the entire school that you are a "snitch". I mean, in an ideal fantasy world good would out and bad would get their just desserts but in real life there are practical reasons for not necessarily taking it upon yourself to confront people. You have to judge the circumstances as they are. We don't necessarily live in a movie where the good guy always wins. There are many societies in which denouncing a peer can lead to unpleasant consequences. I'm all about punishing the bad guy but that's a lot harder to do if you're on the same peer level as them. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 14:23, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I think a school full of people that worked hard to get their grades would not side with the cheater. --Tango (talk) 14:32, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, you must not have gone to my school, then! --140.247.11.36 (talk) 14:32, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Can you just cancel a score? You would have to admit to cheating (why else would you do it?) and if you do that they are likely to cancel all your exams scores (at least, all the ones with that exam board) and you would have to resit everything. --Tango (talk) 14:32, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

No, in the UK system you cannot cancel an A Level score. It will be permanently on the record. I have never heard of a case in which a student who gained an A grade would retake the exam. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I would probably find someone at your school (a teacher, an advisor, whatever) who you really trust, and tell them about it, tell them you don't really want to have your name personally associated with it, but impress them with your sincerity. Then, if they think it is worth pursuing, they can be the one who talks to the testing organization, talks to the student, whatever. Then you don't have to be the one calling out fellow students. Just my two cents. The likelihood is that they will say they have insufficient evidence and drop it (because unless cases of academic dishonesty are concrete administration doesn't usually try to pursue them—too much risk of getting accused of trying to slander someone's record). (I say this as a teacher who has been involved in a number of cases of academic dishonesty regarding students in the USA, anyway. I've gotten two kids kicked out of college for it so far! Be warned, kiddos!) --98.217.8.46 (talk) 14:40, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

←I saw several cases of cheating when I was in high school. Large assignments that were done collaboratively by a large number of students that were supposed to be individual work. Exams that people knew the answers to. People who cheated off my tests. I was frustrated, sure. But I slogged through studying for the exams on my own, wrote the papers, and now I have a nice body of knowledge of history and literature (to name two subjects where the worst dishonesty ocurred) that I draw on and add to. I never informed on anyone, and at no point in the intervening years (never mind how many) when I've run into these people have I regretted that choice. Some of them are miserable bastards. Their misery is not directly related to the cheating, but at least I can tell myself that I didn't ruin their lives, they did it to themselves. I'm sure my attitude has something to do with my finishing college and never getting near academia again; I'd feel differently if I were a teacher, I'm sure. But you did the work. You got the A level. Nobody can take that away from you, and you're proud of your knowledge, right? If you rat this guy out, ten years from now you'll see him and you'll feel small and vindictive, no matter how everything turns out for him. Whistleblowers who expose corruption and abuse of power do hard work that benefits society. All that hangs in the balance here is one man's career, and he's taken nothing away from you. My opinion, you should do the right thing for yourself. Darkspots (talk) 15:13, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

which of OCRs emails should i send something like this? --JD77 (talk) 15:18, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

People cheating does take away from other people's results, though. If people get results they don't deserve then it devalues the qualification. Consider how you would feel if both you and the cheater went up for the same job and he got it - had he not had that A, you would probably have got it instead. --Tango (talk) 15:21, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Email general.qualifications@ocr.org.uk. Say that you would like to report a case of cheating and would they let you know the appropriate address to write to. Make the actual report on paper. Don't give the person's name in the first letter but say what syllabus/module/type of assessment, why you think it was cheating and give them enough info so they can see where the weakness in the system was. Say you hope they will be able to investigate and if they can then you will supply more information. Remember they must get hundreds of letters from people who just hate their neighbours. They can't investigate all of them but they have a duty to investigate if there is something to go on. They also have a duty to continually improve their systems. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:27, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I am gona make myself a new msn account to email anonymously. By doing that theres no way they can find out who i am right? --JD77 (talk) 15:32, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

But likely neither will they take your accusation seriously or be able to investigate it fully. If you want to get action taken, you will likely have to identity yourself. Also, they will be more likely to take your accusation seriously if you use correct capitalization, spelling, and grammar in your message, unlike in your posts above. —Lowellian (reply) 15:36, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

You can take a softly-softly approach. Use either a new msn account or your own account. Say you would like to make an accusation of cheating against an individual and a general complaint about how easy it is to cheat. Ask how you should go about this. Keep it short and well spelt like an A Level student should. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:47, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

It'd be nice to be able to say "the onus is on the anus to own up", which, morally, it is, but that's not what normally happens. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:01, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about A-levels, but here in the US where people take Advanced Placement (AP) classes, the College Board has an "Office of Testing Integrity" where violations can be reported.[3] Maybe it would help if an equivalent for A-levels can be found. bibliomaniac15 00:24, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Media mail

Why does the United States Postal Service even offer the option of media mail, which is less expensive than regular parcel post? I was thinking about this, and my initial thought is that it seems economically disadvantageous to them to offer the option; it will only reduce their profits (imagine if they didn't offer the service of media mail: parcel post would still be cheaper then UPS, FedEx, DHL, so if you're going to ship a book, you'd have to use parcel post, and this would mean you'd be paying more, so USPS would be making more money). So why do they offer the option? —Lowellian (reply) 15:33, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, I suspect its because books are much heavier per unit volume than most other items that are likely to be shipped; indeed shipping books would become prohibitively expensive if charged at the normal scales; the result would probably be that much fewer books would actually be shipped via the USPS. Additionally, while the United States Postal Service is semi-privatized (it used to be a full cabinet level executive department, but is now a government-created corporation, sort of like Fannie Mae, though it is not publicly traded), it is still highly regulated, much as a public utility is with regards to rate structure. Even more so, since while the need to generate enough profit to be self-sufficient is important, the company is not publicly traded and so there is no need to maximize shareholder value. Being that a working postal system is a public good there are incentives beyond merely profit pressure on how the USPS operates. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 16:18, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

(EC) Several things to remember. 1) the USPS is a govermental organisation and I don't believe profit is their only priority particularly as they are a statutory monopoly. Media mail appears to be used to deliver stuff that are consider of potential educational or social value. 2) are you sure media mail receives the same treatment and level of service as regular parcel post? Possible differences include delivery time frames, handling (stuff in media mail shouldn't be too fragile so they can perhaps be a bit rougher with it), insurance, delivery to the mail box etc? 3) Is media mail easier to handle? I already mention it could probably be subject to rought treatment. Are the types of packages delivered via it also easier to handle? Are they less likely to have problems delivering it? Does it pose a lower security risk to their drivers? Is it easier for them to x-ray or examine the packages? Nil Einne (talk) 16:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Media mail is delivered on a "as time and space permit" basis: if they've got extra capacity at a sorting facility, or extra room on a truck, they'll process some media mail parcels. Most of the time, media mail isn't significantly slower than regular mail, but during busy times of the year (Christmas, tax season), it may be delayed by several weeks. --Carnildo (talk) 21:20, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Wearing flowers

Here is a link to a picture of the Japanese play The Echo, the Arrow and the Chain: http://www.aijaa.com/img/b/00191/2525301.jpg How do they make the flowers stick so they don't fall off? Do they clamp them on their nipples or something? JIP | Talk 15:37, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I would guess at double sided selotape, or some less painful equivalent. -mattbuck (Talk) 16:19, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on stage adhesives, but I do know that double-sided tape is frequently used in the fashion industry to ensure that revealing dresses and such don't become too revealing. Typically they are formulated with adhesives which are less likely to irritate the skin, leave lots of gummy residue, or hurt too much when you take them off. A Google search for 'fashion tape', 'dress tape', or 'body tape' will reveal a multitude of suppliers and types. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:47, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Spirit gum. --DaHorsesMouth (talk) 23:15, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Drinking Club

This year my friends and I will be turning the legal drinking age (Uk, 18) how should I go about starting a drinking club for my friends, nothing too formal, I would just appreciate some ideas. Also advice for a relatively new drinker would be appreciated, thanks in advance, RobertsZ (talk) 16:14, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

You could try meeting for regular tastings- choose something specific, like Pinot noir or Lambic, get three or four different examples of it, and taste and compare. The atmosphere of comparing the drinks will keep people from being as likely to overindulge, while the addition of food and music will make it fun for all. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 16:22, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I was going to say the same thing as FQ. Learn to appreciate the taste and craft of liquor, and not merely the buzz obtained thereof. Pick a night, like the first friday of each month, and make it a theme, like Whiskey or Red wine or something like that, provide food and other accompanyment appropriate to the theme, and learn to appreciate the drinks. You don't have to be an expert to appreciate the differences, you just have to be willing to stop and take the time... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 16:26, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

In addition, it might help to have an educative section where you learn/teach some of the words used to describe the flavours, tastes, etc. of the liquors, so that you can describe them to others when you have experienced them. Of course, if you just want to have get togethers to get drunk, it's somewhat less organisation. You might have been asking about things like affiliation and funding. It would be difficult to find some group or organisation to fund something like that, and university rules often forbid spending uni funding on alcohol, for legal reasons, so a university based club may be difficult. Good luck with the adventure. It is good to have people willing to organise new and interesting things. Steewi (talk) 02:56, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

When I was at uni (Warwick, in the UK) I was very involved in running our Real Ale Society. I know similar societies exist at other universities - in a couple of cases we gave advice on starting up, and once even practical assistance and loan of equipment to help them run their first beer festival. Our society always trod a line between "appreciat[ing] the taste and craft of liquor" and "get togethers to get drunk" - emphasis varied from one to the other over the five years that I was associated with the society. 81.187.153.189 (talk) 07:24, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I suppose it can also depend on how much you're willing to spend. It's much easier to "appreciate the taste and craft of liquor" when you're drinking something that actually tastes nice, and unfortunately that can get expensive (especially if some members of the group are in "get drunk" mode and are chucking it back at a rate of knots). FiggyBee (talk) 04:45, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Value for money.

Hi

I have never had value for money, and I don't really understand the concept.

An example of what I find confusing:

• A two hour movie will cost about £6 - this equates to 5p per minute
• Go-karting for 10 mins will cost about £10 - this equates to £1 per minute
• Indoor skydiving for 2 mins costs about £50 - this equates to £25 per minute

Each one of these could give you the same amount of joy, so how do you know if it is good value for money?

How do people know how much they should spend on things per week/month/year?

Every day I get a latte for a bit over £2, someone told me this is too much to spend per day on a coffee, yet I don't know what I should spend.

Generally, I just try to spend per day, less than my parents earn per day.

Please explain value for money.

Thanks 92.2.212.124 (talk) 19:44, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, you've got one of the key concepts right - spend less than you earn. Beyond that, value for money is very much a personal decision. If you get the same amount of joy from the 3 activities you describe, you'll want to go to the movies. If you get a real charge out of sky-diving though, you'll pay the extra money and maybe do it less often. You need to look at the "utility cost" - if I do activity X, what activities Y,Z and W will I not be able to do? I personally drink only freeze-dried coffee, because it tastes good to me and I can spend much less on coffee that way and use the saved money for other things that give me pleasure. In my case, I get more value-for-money drinking freeze-dried. If you cut out the daily latte (and have the discipline to save), you would have £730 extra after a year. That's enough to go on a holiday somewhere - so would you rather have the annual holiday or the daily latte? Franamax (talk) 20:19, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

See subjective theory of value. --Trovatore (talk) 20:22, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I would rather have both.

I have always spent alot of money so people will think of me as upper-middle class (I'm actually midddle class). They wouldn't think of me as better than upper-middle because of my middle-class London accent. I still wanted to understand the concept though.

Anyway, thanks you have been really helpfull. 92.2.212.124 (talk) 20:26, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

So you are saying that one of the values that money has for you has been buying people's good opinions? Well done for noticing this! Now you can choose whether or not, now you have noticed it, it still has value for you. (I'm not being flippant, and I hope I'm not being patronising: recognising the 'dramas' that we play is a big step in choosing how we want to live our lives). --ColinFine (talk) 20:44, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Answering the core question: If you normally buy Brand X of sugar, say, but you notice that there's a generic Brand Y that costs significantly less for the same quantity, you'd be getting value for money by buying Brand Y. You might be wise to check where it was produced and how it's packed, and satisfy yourself there's no difference in quality or chemical composition - but assuming there are no issues on those scores, buying the less expensive brand would be getting value for money. Or, if you normally buy your sugar a packet at a time whenever you need it, but you notice that there's a special on, you could buy a number of packets at the low price. It won't go off like milk. That's also getting value for money. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Sugar is an interesting example because it allows you to consider other values than just what you get our of something. Is it worth paying extra for fairtrade sugar? It all comes down to how much you value the grower's well-being compared to how much you value whatever else you could buy with that extra money (due to the diminishing marginal utility of money, the value of whatever else you could buy will likely be more the poorer you are - if buying the more expensive sugar will stop you from being able to buy enough food for the week, you probably won't go for it, if it would only stop you buying one of your daily lattes, you might decide it's worth it). --Tango (talk) 23:27, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Much depends on whether or not one of your goals is to accumulate money, say, for your old age or to buy private health insurance. As long as you understand that you can't spend your way to wealth -- driving a flashy car doesn't prove that you're rich, it demonstrates that you were rich once -- you're sufficiently balanced.

Still, I'm left with two open issues (I work in the financial services industry, in case it's not obvious...):

• Shouldn't you be more concerned with spending less each day than you earn, rather than your parents?
• Do you have some reason to feel "financially insecure", such that you feel the need to prove to your peers that you can spend as much as you like?

It wouldn't hurt to stop and re-evaluate your priorities every few years and make sure that spending it is still as important to you as it once was! --DaHorsesMouth (talk) 23:27, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

It's not about value for money - it's about supply and demand. You can pack an enormous number of people into a theatre to watch a movie - there are multiple movie theatres in every town - the supply is huge. Most large towns (in the US at least) probably have a go-kart track - and there are a handful of karts available at any time - but the supply is WAY lower than the number of seats in a movie theatre. Indoor skydiving requires dedicated access by a couple of people only to a horribly expensive machine of which there are perhaps only a few hundred in the entire world. The supply is tiny! Now look at the demand: Flying in the indoor skydiver is the thrill of a lifetime for many people - there is a significant demand - but very little supply - so the cost is high. Zipping around a go-kart track is pretty exciting too - quite a few people would like to do it - but the supply is still fairly limited - so it's cheaper than skydiving but more costly than the movies. Seeing a movie is reasonably interesting - but you could probably see almost the same thing at home on TV or on a DVD for $15 - so it's not a hugely high demand - and the supply is vast - so the prices are way, way, low. That explains why they cost radically different amounts. I'd bet that a minute in a skydiving simulator would be WAY more worth-while than two hours in a movie theater or 20 minutes on a go-kart track - so probably people ARE getting value for money. Economics 101 says that if people aren't getting value for money from non-essential activities then they'll stop doing them and either the price will drop. If the operating expenses are too high to allow the price to drop then the company will go out of business. Since skydiving simulators and go-kart tracks exist - the prices must still be high enough to make a profit - which means that demand is at least keeping pace with supply. SteveBaker (talk) 13:22, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Bicentenial certificates of U.S citizenship

Greetings:

The subject of my request is to find out information and at the same time advise you that there is something missing from your article.

1). I am doing research regarding a legal matter, the issue Bicentennial; whether Bicentennial can be used as in nunc pro tunc and or retroactively?

2). That your article regarding (Bicentennial) fails to indicate that the U.S congress approved Bicentennial certificates of U.S citizenship in the year 1996 and that said certificates were issued during that year by the United States District Courts.

3). Whether a Bicentennial Certificate of Citizenship has some special quality in a common and legal application and value.

I respectfully submit that this is an important issue, because people have the right to known about that information.

If my request has been helpful please be so kind as to inform me. Likewise, if you are able to help me in my quest for justice please do so and in form me accordingly.

Thank you for your time and consideration as to in this matter,

Respectfully Submitted, BY: Francesco Franco Zambuto —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.23.167.198 (talk) 20:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I do not know which article you are referring to (you have not linked to one, and a search for 'bicentennial certificate of citizenship' gives no relevant results), but if you think an article can be improved, please either edit it yourself (if you can cite reliable sources for the information you are adding), or raise the issue on the article's Talk page.

As to the other part of your question, you begin by asking for information, but later refer to your 'quest for justice'. Please be aware that though we on the Reference Desks can offer information, and point you at sources, we cannot give legal advice. (I am not in the US, so I have no idea about this subject anyway). --ColinFine (talk) 23:35, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I would say, however, that in the United States, if you're a citizen, you're a citizen. You may have been born here (in which case you can become president), you may have been naturalized (in which case the document is a certificate of naturalization), or you may have acquired citizenship through a process other than naturalization (e.g., the minor immigrant child of immigrant parents who become naturalized derives citizenship through those parents), in which case you have a certificate of citizenship. Other that personal pride, there is no special status to having become a citizen at one time vis-a-vis another, any more than there is by having your oath of citizenship taken by a justice of the Supreme Court rather than an attorney at the former Immigration and Naturalization Service. --- OtherDave (talk) 01:36, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Why would Congress approve "Bicentennial certificates of U.S citizenship in the year 1996"? The U.S. bicentennial was 1976. —D. Monack ^talk 21:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't suppose Congress is immune to typos. :P —Tamfang (talk) 17:30, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

hearing standards for various jobs

Hello everyone,

I’m not asking for medical advice … I’m not asking for medical advice. Now that we’ve got that out of the way:

I’m seeking a career in law enforcement. With the agency I’ve applied for, I’ve completed all of the prerequisite testing: background investigation, polygraph test, written exams, physical fitness test, interview, etc. The last and final stage is the medical/physical exam.

I have slight conductive hearing loss in my left ear, and as a result I do not meet the hearing standards per the Department’s policy.

I’m trying to find various hearing employment standards for other organizations (i.e. LE agencies, DOT, etc, etc, etc) to see if I meet those standards. For example, per the US Military’s enlistment standards (US Army Publication 40-501), I DO meet the hearing standards for military service. My goal is to present all of the jobs that my hearing qualifies me for to the agency I’m applying with.

For example, I do meet the hearing enlistment standards for the US military, so I would say something like “the hearing in my left ear is good enough for the US military, can we use the military enlistment standard instead of your agency’s standard?”

The more times I can say this sentence with X organization, I feel the greater likelihood that I’ll get some sort of waver for my left ear.

Any suggestions?

Thanks! Rangermike (talk) 21:04, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

A letter on a law firm's letterhead with the word "discrimination" on it can do wonders if the agency doesn't have it's own full-time legal defense. :) 24.68.54.155 (talk) 04:44, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

A rambling story before I get to the point. Several years ago I took an 8 week course and one of the requirements was eyesight and in particular Color blindness. One of the other participants was red/green colour blind but they allowed him to take the training if by the end he could find another doctor to certify that he wasn't colour blind. He was able to do that but failed anyway. His color blindness was such that he couldn't tell the difference between the red/green lights and kept pressing the wrong buttons.

The point here being, that you may need to look at the training involved and decide if there is any part of it based on hearing that you might not be able to pass. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 05:27, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Aren't those tests for "Uncorrected" hearing loss? Meaning that if you can get a hearing aid that fixes the problem, you can do the test while wearing the hearing aid? If it's only a slight loss - it should be easily correctable. SteveBaker (talk) 13:10, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

You mean "corrected"? Your hearing, when corrected, has to be above a certain level. I know eye tests for jobs are usually corrected vision, meaning you can wear your glasses or contact lenses (fighter pilot may be an exception). --Tango (talk) 18:14, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

October 8

control of the house and senate for the past 30 years

I have been trying to find out which major parties have controlled the house and senate for the past 30 years by year or election period. I've tried several searches but have bben unsucessful. Can someone help me by telling me how to phrse the research question? Or direct me to a source who already has the data. Thanks much

John Spitzley —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnspitzley (talk • contribs) 00:41, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

We have an article on each congress: see the List of United States Congresses. From there, link to each of the most recent 15 articles, each of which has a table at the bottom for the house and the senate. -Arch dude (talk) 00:55, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

There was an awesome Table/List that showed this. I remember commenting on its AfD. If it wasn't deleted I might be able to find it. Plasticup ^T/C 05:11, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Could it be this one? Fribbler (talk) 16:28, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Knowledge of U.S. presidential race in foreign countries

I am curious what kind of information is well known in other countries regarding the U.S. presidential race. Are Barack Obama and John McCain household names where you live? Are they barely a blip? Are you saying, "who?" Have any of the U.S. presidential debates been broadcast on your television stations? I'd be curious about both English and non-English speaking nations.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 02:36, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

UK. The debates are on TV here, but in the wee small hours with little uptake. For those interested in politics, McCain & Obama & Palin are well known; they feature regularly enough on mainstream news, so there should be high name recognition even amongst those not interested in politics. Biden less well known, I think. --Tagishsimon (talk) 02:40, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

U.S. presidential campaigns are always big news in Australia, and everyone knows about Obama, McCain and Hillary Clinton. When Obama beat Clinton for the Democrat candidacy, it was BIG front-page headlines ("The Winner!!" or similar - at least as prominent as the winner of our own federal elections). The recent debates have interrupted scheduled TV programming; the Obama-McCain debate was shown on 2 channels simultaneously (ABC and SBS). This irked me, not because we shouldn't see such debates, but because I was planning to record a program of special interest to me, and it was shoved off without a word of explanation. During the period of the Obama-Clinton contest, there was relatively little mention of McCain at all, and the impression one might have got was that the Democrat contest was the only one that mattered, almost as if the winner would automatically become president. That's since been rectified by the re-emergence of McCain onto the front pages. Sarah Palin has also received a lot of publicity. Joe Biden cracks relatively little mention, but he's still had enough publicity for reasonably well-read people to know who he is. -- JackofOz (talk) 02:54, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Canada is much like Jack's description of Oz, except worse. Here in the east, we get the direct feed of the US channels out of Buffalo, including Fox, and CNN. (In the west, it's feed from Seattle.) Canada's national election is on October 14th, just a week away, and I would bet there is more coverage on our TVs of the US one than of our own. ៛ Bielle (talk) 03:05, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Same thing in the west, though since I am somewhat of an Americanophile, I don't mind so much. That being said, almost every Canadian I know has more knowledge of the American system, and even the elected officials in nearby states, than they do of their own area. For example, I cannot name more than a couple members of the city council for the small town I live in, yet I know the name of the Governor of Washington State, and even her primary rival in the upcoming election. That's the power of TV...and I barely watch 5 hours a week. --Kickstart70-T-C 03:15, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Wow, impressive. The last Washington gov I can name without looking it up is Dixy Lee Ray, and I live on the West Coast, even. --Trovatore (talk) 07:18, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

In Bermuda, Obama and McCain are eclipsing our own politicians. Most people favor Obama, even though he has come out and blasted Bermuda's status as a "tax haven" (which is a silly and over-played term, by the way) Plasticup ^T/C 03:24, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

This is all very interesting, especially how strong the coverage is in Australia. Regarding little mention of McCain during the Clinton-Obama kerfuffle, it was to a large extent the same in the U.S. I'm still curious about other countries but of course given Wikipedia demographics, you lot are not unexpected:-) and after an edit conflict, welcome Bermuda!--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 03:27, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

There is high interest in Obama throughout East Africa. The Daily Nation, the widely read by everyone daily in urban Kenya, runs an article on the US election every day. In the Middle East he is a household name. There is much interest in his Muslim ancestry. Lotsofissues (talk) 04:17, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

High interest here (New Zealand) also, even with our own governmental election in November. Current NZ opinion for preferred President is about Obama 70%, McCain 30%... and that's a poll from our main conservative daily. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boomshanka (talk • contribs) 04:39, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

In this part of Canada interest in the US election is about on the level of our current territorial election both of which are lower than that of the Canadian election. And interest in the Canadian election is very low with almost no posters up and very little in the way of direct mailings. Both election. People are well informed about the US election, it's almost impossible not to be, but just don't care. Of course interest in all the elections might be higher if we didn't have to worry about a lack of heat or power in the next couple of days. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 10:50, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

South Africa: Obama and McCain are household names in my experience. For those who are interested, the US presidential race is quite well known. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 11:14, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Sweden: Household names - as is Sarah Palin, and I think most people also know Joe Biden. Almost every day there is an article about the election in our biggest morning newspaper - about the debate between Palin and Biden, the one between McCain and Obama, today something about Obama's progress in Ohio due to the economical crisis. These last weeks there have been lots of articles about Palin: Palin knowing Russia because it's her neighbour, Palin accusing Obama for having terrorist friends, Palin being mocked and quoted on NBC; but also lots of articles comparing Obama and McCain. Little sister is watching you all over there! Lova Falk (talk) 12:56, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I live in the UK and am just one of those people who keep up with the news because I like to know what's going on (and crush on Clinton *blush*). I watch/listen to/read the BBC's various outlets, as well as The Economist. From what I've heard, Obama is certainly the more popular candidate and appears to be a breath of fresh air, although low opinion of McCain may stem from "everyone's" dislike of Bush/Cheney. -- _{Escape Artist Swyer} ^Talk _{Contributions} 18:54, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

When you say you have a crush on Clinton, are you talking about Bill, Hillary, or Chelsea? —D. Monack ^talk 21:22, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Everyone's recent dislike of Bush/Cheney is a sore spot for me. I am not at all impressed that six years after taking office people finally woke up, when it was evident 8 years ago that he was singularly unsuited to run anything, much less a country.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 20:56, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, don't kid yourself too strongly. It's not like the US populace has actually begun to embrace anything different. The chief reason McCain is doing poorly is the economy, plain and simple. US voters are still as myopic and uninformed as always, but when the economy crashes, they actually start to care about how poorly run things are. The second this particular crisis stops they'll go back to their "don't take mah guns!" approach to national politics. (At least, that's how it looks from my, US point of view.) --98.217.8.46 (talk) 03:20, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to all who have replied from me as well — this has been quite informative to this particular American. I knew that this election in particular was attracting a lot of foreign attention but I didn't realize it was quite that high. It's hard for me to imagine my fellow Americans caring as much about election elsewhere—unless you religiously read the New York Times you'd never know who was the Prime Minister of the UK or the President of France, for example, and they're probably the best-known foreign leaders over here other than the guy with the hat we propped up in Afghanistan. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 03:20, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

What about the old man in Cuba, don't you think Americans know at least his surname? Lova Falk (talk) 08:15, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

When you say "the old man", do you mean him, or his brother? --Trovatore (talk) 08:25, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I mean the president. Lova Falk (talk) 15:02, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

That would be Raúl, then... FiggyBee (talk) 15:11, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure there are people who make the perfectly correct statement "Cuba is run by Castro", without realising they're now thinking of the wrong brother. -- JackofOz (talk) 19:16, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I can understand not knowing much about the incredibly lack-lustre Gordon Brown, who adds excitement to a room by leaving it, but are you telling us that Americans generally wouldn't have recognised the name Tony Blair or known what job he had? -- JackofOz (talk) 08:33, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Americans in General? I'd guess that about a quarter of the adult population knows exactly who Tony Blair is. I'd also guess that half of the three quarters who don't can't name the continents and couldn't tell you who fought who in World War II or when it took place if you held a gun to their heads.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 12:59, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

WWII was the one where John Wayne beat the Japanese, wasn't it? FiggyBee (talk) 14:17, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I just wanted to mention that WNYC has a small segment on today's episode of the Leonard Lopate show on the upcoming Canadian elections here. --Blue387 (talk) 21:56, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

how do tv remotes work?

remote control isnt any help. does the infrared emitter emit a different frequency of light for every function? or how does that work —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.8.100.50 (talk) 02:57, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I got this from that page - "The infrared diode modulates at a speed corresponding to a particular function. When seen through a video camera, the diode appears to illuminate purple light." Twas on the caption of an image . Boomshanka (talk) 04:09, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Modern TV remotes use infrared signals, although other methods were used decades ago. The same frequency of infrared is emitted, but with different pulse patterns for different functions. The infrared beam is modulated at a high frequency (to make it possible for the receiver to tell control signals from the IR emitted by the sun or other light sources) and then the control signals are sent in a binary code, wherein it blinks on and off to represent a binary number with ones and zeros to tell the TV what to do. There is a general explanation at Remote control and a more detailed technical explanation at [4]. Edison (talk) 04:13, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Another question, similarly related, i guess: My cable TV remote control causes the lights on my DVD player to flicker, although it doesn't really do anything but flicker. Why would it do that, when the cable remote is being used for an entirely different device, let alone different functions? Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 00:17, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

The remote sends binary numbers as rapid on/off flashes of IR light (think of it like Morse code - although it isn't exactly like that) - a different number for each button press. Some buttons (the volume control most noticably) send the same number over and over for as long as you hold the button down - others send one number when you press the button - and not again until you release it and press it again. Those numbers are designed to be different for different kinds of device in order that each device only responds to it's own remote. However, there are a bazillion devices out there and the manufacturers are all competitors - so they don't talk to each other much. It should come as no surprise that occasionally, some codes will overlap. Some devices are designed to flash lights just to let you know that they received an IR message - even if they subsequently decide to ignore it because it's intended to control something else. That's probably what's happening with your DVD. SteveBaker (talk) 01:34, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

In general, remote control infrared emitters are either rapidly blinking or off. It's like Morse code, but the "on" state is very rapidly blinking light and the "off" state is no light. The remote blinking rate is set to a very specific rate. The infrared receiver in the TV is set up to only pay attention to infrared signals that blink at the exact same rate. The different buttons on the remote send different patterns of blinking and off states of the infrared light.

Look at the pictures on this webpage that explain one type of remote control's blinking pattern: Sony SIRC Protocol. In the first picture, each line represents one blink. (The blink rate for this remote is 40,000 times a second or 40 kHz.) The first picture shows how a "1" and "0" are represented for this remote, then further down the page these "bits" are combined to create codes for the various functions.

So different brands of devices can vary their remote control signals in two major ways: By using different blinking rates, and by using different patterns of blinking and off states for the different functions.

Little Red Riding Hood: My guess is your TV and DVD remotes use the same blink rate, but incompatible patterns of blinking and off states. The DVD's light might be triggered by the correct blink rate, but the DVD can't understand the TV remote's patterns.

173.8.100.50 and Boomshanka: Remote control infrared emitters only emit one infrared wavelength of light. The sensors in video cameras make infrared light look purple on the screen. "Modulating" in this case means turning the rapidly blinking light on and off in a pattern. I only know about "Morse code" or digital on/off patterns. But the section Remote_control#Technique suggests some remotes use different speeds of on/off patterns. (In effect, slowly blinking (at different speeds) the rapidly blinking signal.) --Bavi H (talk) 05:56, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

The power of groups

Is there a concept, or even an equation (which does not appear to be Nash equilibrium) which adequately explains the following concept?

Any individual that supports the goals of a group, the goals of the other individuals within that group, as well as the goals that that individual wishes to meet....will almost always beat out the goals of the self-serving individual who does not align himself with a cohesive group. Possible non-ideal examples: Mafia, Old Boys Network, investment clubs, etc.

Thanks in advance! --Kickstart70-T-C 03:10, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Why are you making a distinction between "the goals of a group" and "the goals of the other individuals within that group"? There should be no distinction between those two. Once you remove that false dichotomy I think the Nash equilibrium fits perfectly. I think. Plasticup ^T/C 03:22, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, some goals of the individual may not be the same as the group. In fact, some of those goals may be exclusively individual, but the group gains a benefit, or the goals may even harm the group. For example, the individual might have a goal to have a facy car. This might help the group in that it raises their potential for outside investment, based on the appearance of success. However, the fancy car may also detract some that, with potential investors believing the members of the group spend money frivolously. Also, while the individual and group may share goals, and the individual in the group intends to support the goals of the group, it's vital that he also supports the goals of the other individuals within that group to be a success. Maybe N.e. does cover what I need, but the article is not clear on the kind of definition I am supposing. In any case, some better examples to explain to others would be helpful if you or anyone can provide. FWIW, I'm trying to explain to my coworkers how working as a team with group goals in mind and being supportive of each other gains us more than the current self-serving (and somewhat backstabbing and overwhelmingly negative) lack of mutual or group support. --Kickstart70-T-C 05:09, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Similar ideas are dealt with in Robert Axelrod's The evolution of Cooperation and Brian Skyrms' Evolution of the Social Contract. They both try to explain how people can be altruistic (or follow group goals) and survive when there are people who are primarily self-interested and will free load off the effort of group-minded individuals.--droptone (talk) 11:40, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Why didn't Iceland join the Eurozone?

Why didn't they do so long ago?

Whatever their reasons, it now looks like a bad decision in hindsight? Lotsofissues (talk) 04:46, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

The pros and cons of joining are manifold. There are those who fear losing national independence, or losing power to 'Brussels' (where most of the EU headquarters seem to be situated). Those in favour believe in the increase strength of the union and how it can compete more effectively with the US and other major nations, how it can provide a form of cross-national progressive funding, helping the strong nations provide a stable basis for the developing (or less stable) nations. As for hindsight - it's a wonderful thing, though the current economic climate isn't exactly providing the rosiest of outlooks for Eurozone countries - Germany and Holland have been making recent headlines with some of their rescue-plans. I doubt a significant number of those who previously opposed joining the single-currency would be swayed by the current turmoil in their nation - though it may give the supports of it a chance to say "we told you so" and feel all smug. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 09:07, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

It should be remembered that Iceland is not a member of the European Union, and therefore joining the eurozone is a much more complicated issue than for a member state. There's a question of whether Iceland would even be eligible to join if it wanted to. --Xuxl (talk) 15:53, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

See also Optimum currency area. When setting the interest rate, the ECB takes into account the economic situation in all member countries. However, as a very small country the situation in Iceland is likely not to get a large weight. Also, as an exporter of raw materials (I assume) global shocks are likely to hit Iceland in a different manner from continental Europe. It is not clear that the current trouble wouldn't have been bad even if they joined the Euro, the problem is more that of an extremely large banking sector that has gone wild over the last years. Jørgen (talk) 19:46, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

If Iceland joined the EU, it would have to adopt all its laws (small countries have little leverage to get opt-outs). This would include allowing the free movement of labour, which could be an issue in such a small, homogeneous country. More significantly, it would have to allow other EU countries to fish in its waters. Fishing is a very important activity, accounting for 70% of export income and the Iceland fishery is run in a sustainable manner, with the economic benefits accruing to Icelandic companies and people. The EU fishery policy would best be described as rapacious and would likely lead quickly to the ruination of the Icelandic fishery, to the benefit of the large Spanish and Portuguese fishing fleets and processors. That alone is a pretty good reason to stay out. Franamax (talk) 21:03, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

riddle

hi, i'm from india and i hav a riddle for u.plz solve it, becos i cant

fishermen love me. but doctors hate me. kids want to eat me. who am i? i'm a 13 letter word hint: --H-T---I-ME- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.50.133.167 (talk) 04:57, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

It's Chaetognathas or worms (the hint is wrong as it's only 12 letters). Fishermen use worms as bait, doctors don't like to see worms in patients and kids like Gummy worms (Gummi bears). CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 05:09, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Nice - but it doesn't really fit the hint does it? The trouble is that none of the words in the half-dozen spell-check dictionaries I tested had any 13 letter words that came remotely close to fitting "--H-T---I-ME-" - so I fear that our OP has not copied the hint down correctly...or perhaps the answer is in some Indian language. SteveBaker (talk) 13:05, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

All the things I found indicated that it was chaetognaths or chathuringmes but that the hint was wrong. Just dump the riddle into Google there's plenty of hits. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 21:41, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

What is the name of this fallacy?

I have looked at the List of fallacies and I find this one. It is probably there but just not obvious from the description. It is an attempt to exclude exceptions brought up to falsify claims. An example would be if someone said "Americans don't know anything about politics and events outside the USA". Someone objects "What about Condoleezza Rice, are you saying that she doesn't know anything about politics and events outside the USA?". The first person says "But she's not American, she's a politician" (or more subtly as "You can't count her, she's a politician"). It is often used in religious debates (He's no Christian, He's a Democrat!).

I have seen this argument a number of times, and until I find the proper name I have dubbed it the "He's no Scotsman, He's a golfer" fallacy. -- Q Chris (talk) 07:37, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

No true Scotsman. Algebraist 07:52, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

It is certainly a variation on the No true Scotsman, though in the normal "Scotsman" fallacy the point put forward to exclude the person, i.e. "What about Condoleezza Rice, are you saying that she doesn't know anything about politics and events outside the USA?" would be responded to with "Well if she knows about politics and events outside the USA that proves that she is not a true American". I think this is subtly different, picking some other characteristic or group they belong to and implying that it is somehow mutually exclusive with the original designation. -- Q Chris (talk) 08:04, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

That's because when someone says "Americans don't know anything about politics and events outside the USA", they typically mean "the average American doesn't know...". If that interpretation is correct then using a high-ranking government official to justify American's average knowledge of world politics/events would be foolish.--droptone (talk) 11:48, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the Condoleezza Rice example just seems to the first person communicating poorly, and the second person simply missing the point (perhaps intentionally). That doesn't seem to cover the "He's no Christian!" debate, but that's probably coverd by No true scotsman depending on context. APL (talk) 13:07, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Looks like the retort is mixing in a little straw man. Plasticup ^T/C 15:01, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

There's a very good chance that in the upcoming election we may have a high ranking official who doesn't know a darned thing about world politics. But that has yet to be decided yet.--Jayron32.talk.contribs 01:57, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

That's better than having a high ranking official who doesn't know a darned thing. ;) </off-topic political rant> --Tango (talk) 22:12, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

XML Parsing Error: Mismatched tag "</off-topic political rant>", opening tag not found.. --antilived^{T | C | G} 02:19, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

MV Synetta, Maritime Accident in 1986

I am trying to find out how and why the MV Synetta sunk off the coast of Iceland in December 1986? What it was carrying when it did and also any pictures of it before it sank!!! Really any information i can find at all and I'm Struggling Thankyou!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.10.170.51 (talk) 09:27, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

It was a British tanker called the Syneta (only one t) and it hit a rock. See TANKER SHIP RAMS ROCK; 12 DIE and there may be more here if you have a password. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 10:23, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Inanimate objects seen as...

Apologies for mucking up the reference desk again, but I think there's a name for the "perceiving objects as living" phenomenon, such as treating a houseplant like a pet. If there is a name for this, can anyone tell me what it is? --Glass Star (talk) 09:28, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean anthropomorphic or Anthropomorphism? CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 10:14, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

It is similar to this, I checked that first but anthropomorphism is specifically about giving human characteristics to an animal or inanimate object. What Glass Star is talking about is giving animal-like characteristics, and would cover things like Pet Rocks. -- Q Chris (talk) 10:22, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

zoomorphic is the animal equivalent. I acknowledge that this might not quite meet the question, though. --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:38, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

(ec) It ought to be Zoomorphism - but our article indicates a subtly different meaning for that term and Wiktionary gives a yet different definition. SteveBaker (talk) 12:40, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Anthropomorphism works for the case I'm talking about, I think. Thanks for the help --Glass Star (talk) 15:09, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Not to be pedantic, but since when are plants inanimate? Plasticup ^T/C 14:57, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I've taken "inanimate" objects to mean things that are not mobile without help. (I'm not going to throw any of my potted plants though.) --Glass Star (talk) 15:09, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Eppur si muove.

Rapid plant movement. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 15:40, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Documentary/ audience research

hi i need help finding various research, i've found good sources (such as Channel4, BBC commissioning and BARB) already but it's not very specific. In my course we are finding out what reasearch is taken to produce documentaries, we have been told to find out:

• Audience data
• Audience awareness
• Product research
• Audience profiling
• Consumer behaviour
• Consumer attitudes
• Competitor analysis
• Advertising placement
• Advertising effects,

if you have any good websites, research, etc,etc, it will be a great help! cheers —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.81.235 (talk) 11:32, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I suspect the references for the article on advertising would be very helpful; that is such a broad area you might get a lot there.I don't know if you've tried Wikipedia before, but you can usually type any of the above things in and get something, though it should be the start, not the end to research.

Also, check out some books by prominent authors who have written about the the field of media. I don't recall a lot of names from my Communication courses 20 years ago, but one I do is Marshall McLuhan.209.244.30.221 (talk) 12:26, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure you're reading from the proper course notes? The points you outline above read like something to do with an advertising or marketing course, nothing to do with a documentary at all. Franamax (talk) 11:39, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

"Linkedin" invitation: Should I give a monosyllable?

Dear Abby:

It's true that I have a lousy memory for names, but anyway an unfamiliar name has just emailed me out of the blue to ask me if he can "link me in". I'd never heard of linkedin.com and dutifully surfed there and started to read but pretty soon dozed off. (No offense to the writers of the WP article on it, but this is more of the same.) Sounds like something of absolutely no interest to me and furthermore actually rather repulsive, as it seems to encourage cliquishness, so easily used to ensure that jobs are shared by people of the same skin pigmentation, etc. Anyway I presume it's merely another "service" offered by a company that will sell the info to companies with deep pockets as well of course as (since it's in the US) giving it all to that nice Mr Cheney under the "Patriot" Act.

The message I got is polite, spelled correctly, etc., and it got through my pretty efficient spam filters, so isn't obviously spam. But it's also about as generic as possible. I don't know why my correspondent doesn't start by reminding me what our connection is, unless he lacks the necessary time and effort because he's sending off hundreds of these things. Or then again "he" might be a spambot. Still, as mentioned above, I have trouble remembering people's names, so I have slight twinges of conscience about ignoring what might be a well-intentioned message from somebody I actually know.

What would y'all do?

(No, I'm not a member of Facebook, etc. Quite aside from privacy issues, I've been appalled by what I've seen over the shoulders of Facebook members gazing adoringly at photos of their chums' cats, etc. Perhaps my Facebook-using acquaintances aren't typical and yours are all very different, but whatever the reason these otherwise lucid people seem to regress to a mental age of eight or so when participating, or so their comments imply.)

Hoary (talk) 14:43, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Dear Hoary:

That email sounds like it comes from a classic spambot. If you find yourself wanting to join a friend networking site, I suggest Facebook. You don't have to look at pictures of people's cats, but it can help you stay in contact with friends that would otherwise drift away. In my first year after college I am still in (light) contact with many of my old friends, thanks mainly to Facebook.

Plasticup ^T/C 14:55, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

LinkedIn is a social networking site with a business orientation. While it is superfically similar to Facebook et al, it has almost none of the shiny gewgaws and cruft that make all those other sites so annoying, it mostly exists to engender maintenance of contacts to business acquaintances. I'd much rather hear from my old pal Joe Doaks that his company has an opening for a widget designer with my skills than get cold calls from headhunters. I am more than a little puzzled by the slightly veiled accusation of racism; I've never seen anything remotely resembling that. In any case, LinkedIn does, unfortunately, offer the same "give me your email credentials and I'll invite all your contacts!!!11!" functionality that so many sites have these days, and that is probably the source of your mysterious email. If you don't want to respond, then don't. Easy peasy. --LarryMac | Talk 15:25, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

No, I hadn't heard that LinkedIn was racist, but all the talk about people you can trust, etc., seems only slightly different from talk about the kind of people you feel comfortable working with, who might be the people you're comfortable playing golf with, who might just happen not to include womenfolk, persons of swarthy complexion, etc. I've heard plenty of criticism of meritocracy and of interviews, but I'd thought that the combination of these two was preferable to a computer-powered old-boy network on steroids. All this whizbang technology to such an (apparently) premodern end: but perhaps I should stop worrying and be happy. Meanwhile, I think I'll take your advice and ignore the invitation. -- Hoary (talk) 15:36, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

That didn't sound like his advice to me... Like these people say, it's a social networking site with an emphasis on the working world. It probably won't be particularly annoying or get you a job, but it can be nice (and occasionally useful) to keep in touch with people in a professional capacity. The point LarryMac was trying to make (I believe) is that it's no big deal... TastyCakes (talk) 20:18, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Hoary, where exactly do you work? I've worked with, for, and over at least many dozens (probably hundreds) of womenfolk and persons of swarthy complexion. I consider many many of those people my friends. What earthly difference does it make what colour or gender they are? LinkedIn is a site oriented toward business networking, just the same as Facebook and MySpace are oriented toward social networking, Bebo is more child-oriented, and hi5 is some other weird thing. None of those sites has a profile entry for skin colour or a tick-box for "Prevent Jews from contacting me". The "kind of people" you feel comfortable with is entirely your own choice. Regardless of the website, if you entertain prejudice, you will be delivered to the constrained world of your own choosing - just don't complain that your world is smaller than you'd hoped it would be. Franamax (talk) 11:23, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Are there any possibilities for two countries to become one?

Are there any possibilities for two countries to become one? --V4vijayakumar (talk) 17:24, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Sure. There have been many times in history when two independent countries have merged to become one single country. At least 3 U.S. states became part of the U.S. that way (see Republic of Texas, Republic of Hawaii, and Republic of California.), though in each of those cases there was an unequal merger; the smaller country essentially merged into the larger one. The Act of Union 1707 created the new country of Great Britain, by formally merging the countries Scotland and England, though the two had been ruled by the same monarch since 1603, when Queen Elizabeth I died and named James VI of Scotland as her heir. The Union of South Africa was created by the merger of several independent dominions; IIRC they all had responsible government before the merger, and so could be considered at some level semi-independent countries both before and after. As far as the current situation, well, if two independent countries, where neither was coerced by the other, entered into a treaty that merged the two countries into one, that could happen. However, given the trends in the international community, where multi-ethnic states have actually been spliting along ethnic lines (i.e. Czech Republic and Slovakia, the various Balkan states of the former Yugoslavia, the Two-state solution in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, East Timor, etc. etc.) I don't personally see it as all that likely. Since World War II we have seen new states emerge all over the place, but I don't think there has been a single situation since then where two states voluntarily ended their separate existance to form a new, singular state. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:41, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I suppose that East and West Germany are an exception to your last point, considering that the people on both states wanted to form voluntarily a new state (perhaps the government of one would like to keep the status quo). Mr.K. (talk) 17:48, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Of course, they were one country to start with, so it was a re-merger rather than just a merger. --Tango (talk) 18:08, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

That could be said of a lot of conquests, for a suitably chosen value of "to start with". —Tamfang (talk) 17:37, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Groups of independent states coming together on certain areas of governance are becoming popular, the EU, for example, or the African Union. They aren't merging to the point of becoming one country, but they are moving in that direction - some people think they will eventually go all the way. --Tango (talk) 18:08, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Yemen, Vietnam, potentially Korea? Though all of those were perhaps one country to start with before being split. United Arab Emirates might be a case. Denmark and Norway in the 1300s. Federated States of Micronesia? The unification of Italy? Castille and Aragon? Some of these should confirm that two (or more) states indeed can become one. Jørgen (talk) 19:41, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

This isn't quite the same, but there's an analogy. The 6 British colonies (NSW, Victoria, Queensland, SA, WA and Tasmania) federated into the single nation of Australia in 1901. This wasn't done by administrative decree from Britain, but after a long process involving popular referendums held in the colonies. Up till the last minute, there was doubt that Western Australia would be part of Australia (and they later even held a referendum where the majority voted to secede from Australia, but the UK Parliament would not allow it). There's a good argument that what resulted was just another colony, at least until Australia was accepted as a sovereign nation by the League of Nations in 1920, and we certainly didn't achieve practical independence until at least 1930 and not legal independence (almost) until 1986, but that's not relevant to the analogy I'm drawing. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:19, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

There was also the short lived United Arab Republic. TastyCakes (talk) 20:23, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

In the U.S., there is the often overlooked Vermont Republic. There is also the Anschluss that annexed Austria into Germany, then later acquisitions of Alsace-Lorraine, Eupen-Malmed, Luxembourg, the Sudetenland and parts of Poland. Also consider the Roman Empire and the Holy Roman Empire and a myriad of other historical examples. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 20:50, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Staying with Jayron's British theme there is also the 1801 merger between the Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland to form the United Kingdom. ;) Best, --Cameron* 20:53, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

The Dominion of Newfoundland and Canada in 1949. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 21:19, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Come on, New Zealand, how about joining us and becoming part of Greater Australia. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:49, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

No. Gwinva (talk) 23:29, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, why not? As far as I can tell, y'all talk the same, anyway :-) --Trovatore (talk) 23:32, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, not at all, Trovatore. I wouldn't pay sexpence for my fəsh and chəps. Non-ministerial parliamentarians here are called back-benchers; NZ has a different animal called beck-binchers. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:30, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

A lot of crude online maps already label the whole Australasia as "Australia" anyway.. But I'm still surprised it's not Australians that came out with the name "Eee", considering how much you guys love your iː's. --antilived^{T | C | G} 08:48, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Not all crude online maps. Gwinva (talk) 19:34, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I like it. But Tasmanians might be a bit miffed by being regarded as part of the "island of Australia". -- JackofOz (talk) 19:39, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Also Egypt & Syria joined for a time to form the United Arab Republic. —D. Monack ^talk 22:07, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Libya was also a part of the UAR for a while. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 00:22, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

the German Empire was formed in 1871 from 25 smaller states. Edison (talk) 23:11, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

A few states in Central America briefly merged then separated again - a few Caribbean island nations did as well. Can't recall the names of those countries though. But if they did it once they could perhaps do it again. Rmhermen (talk) 23:53, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

West Indies Federation. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 01:12, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Despite all these examples, it is somewhat strange that two modern states would unite willingly. Nationalism and patriotism usually work against such things. Countries seem more likely to split into smaller entities these days. German reunification is probably the only successful recent example. However, the possibilities are still there. It would take a large event for one country to willingly give up its sovereignty to another country. Steewi (talk) 23:56, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Additional: The double government - Yiguo liangzhi - of China is one solution to large scale disputed territory. Steewi (talk) 23:57, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Unification of Italy. Never mind. Already been said. (And I thought I checked so carefully!) Cherry Red Toenails (talk) 01:49, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Most people remember the Acts of Union 1707 but there was the Laws in Wales Acts 1535–1542 which gave England and Wales and the Act of Union 1800 that merged the Kingdom of Ireland with the Kingdom of Great Britain to United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. There is also the Yemenite unification which is only a few months older than the German reunification. There are some others listed at List of national border changes since World War I and List of national border changes from 1815 to 1914. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 07:50, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

We might see South Ossetia merge into Russia. Plasticup ^T/C 14:45, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Not any time soon - even Russia won't want to cause that big a diplomatic incident! (Of course, it is already de-facto part of Russia, so it makes little difference.) --Tango (talk) 22:06, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

The first step, having the breakaway republic recognized as an independent state, is already underway. After a year or two, the people of South Ossetia hold a vote and decide to merge into Russia. Russia graciously accepts. I think it is very plausible, and Putin et al certainly have the balls for it. Plasticup ^T/C 00:44, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Interestingly, that scenario is almost exactly the same one that gave the U.S. the state ofHawaii. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 02:39, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Russia have recognised it, everybody else (except Nicaragua apparently) still considers it part of Georgia and it doesn't look like that is likely to change. Russia accepting the result of a vote by part of another sovereign state to join them would count as illegally annexing the region and would be an act of war. Whether anyone other than Georgia would consider it worth fighting World War III over, I don't know, but at the very least Russia would be diplomatically isolated and would probably be put under economic sanctions (their economy is rather fragile as it is, I believe, so that's a serious threat). If Georgia joins NATO in the intervening time, then in theory the whole of NATO would declare war on Russia - for that reason, I'm not sure Georgia will actually be accepted into NATO (no-one was willing to fight for them before, so I doubt they will in future). --Tango (talk) 09:43, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Russia's "fragile" economy just happens to be the source of a very large portion of Europe's natural gas supply. The sanctions would be applied by a bunch of shivering-cold people - and thereby hangs a geosocioeconopolitical tale. Franamax (talk) 10:00, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, it could turn into an international game of chicken! --Tango (talk) 15:35, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

TYPE OF CURRENT

WHAT TYPE OF CURRENT IS PRODUCED BY A BATTERY? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.91.37.33 (talk) 19:25, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Our articles on direct current and alternating current should be of use. Also, please avoid typing in all caps. — Lomn 19:38, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, a battery doesnt produce an electric current regardless, as its not a current source; but it can deliver a current to an electrical load. But lets not get too persnickety.--GreenSpigot (talk) 00:00, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Direct Current92.2.26.236 (talk) 01:19, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

FINALLY! A direct answer. Edison (talk) 16:15, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Edison, you've already been warned about your negative bias on this subject ;) Anyway, what if you were pushing the battery through a tube? Then it would produce an air current. Franamax (talk) 20:33, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

October 9

7 p's of marketing

Can someone please help me compare the 7p'f of marketing for macdonalds and burger king?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.225.79.210 (talk) 14:32, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

7 p's - it's not something specific to Macdonalds/Burger King it's a marketing 'concept' or 'theory' or whatever you call it. Either way it should be under Seven P's or 7 p's - was when I searched anyways 194.221.133.226 (talk) 14:36, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

While there's a policy here not to do peoples' homework for them, you should read through the Seven Ps and marketing mix articles to familiar yourself with them. When you've done that, consider analysing the two companies using SWOT and/or PEST analysis. When you've finished those, you should have a good understanding of the internal and external factors of each business, and how the marketing mix is relevant to each (and how they differ). Booglamay (talk) - 14:41, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

OCR on Java or http pages

I am trying to find a program that will allow me to ocr words on jave or http pages, anyone know of any?thanksCanacatcancan (talk) 14:42, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

The only even vaguely plausible meaning you might intend for OCR is optical character recognition. But if that is what you mean, why would you want to recognise characters which you already have in electronic form? --ColinFine (talk) 22:46, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I do mean optical character recognition. I am unable to select the text on the webpage by highlighting, I have only been able to copy the page. When the page is copied to other programs, i.e., word- the text comes in as a picture. I am trying to find a simple way to get the ingredients listed on a product, such as cheetos from the frito-lay site, into text form. I need to enlarge the text for seniors to be able to be read easily, enlarging it on the computer screen, has been fine for some seniors, but others need a printout.thanksCanacatcancan (talk) 05:11, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, I see. It's nothing to do with HTML (or HTTP) then - you don't have text, but only a picture of text. If you have a scanner, you have software that will do this (after all, they scan in the picture whether it is a photograph or a document, and then run an OCR process on it. Whether your scanner system makes the OCR program available to you for files already on your computer or not, I don't know.

But googling for "OCR software", I find that the second and fourth hits are for free OCR packages: http://www.simpleocr.com/ and http://www.softi.co.uk/freeocr.htm. I have no idea how these are, but it won't cost you anything to try them. --ColinFine (talk) 07:32, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how many times I've had to manually type in a company/organization address because the contact page is an image. Web designers of the world—think of the end user. Darkspots (talk) 11:46, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Jeep Wrangler Unlimited

Hello

2 door Jeep wrangler unlimited's were made from 2004 1/2 to 2006 i was curious how many were made all together and how many were made avaliable with the "H" package these were made from 2005-2006

Thank you Brian —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.229.248.70 (talk) 16:06, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

The article Jeep Wrangler is pretty comprehensive. If the article itself does not contain the specific information you are looking for, there are references and external links at the bottom that may. Good luck --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:35, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Fly spray

Do flies suffer pain when killed with fly spray? --Richardrj ^{talk email} 17:57, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I think what you're really asking is, what is it like to be a fly? --Trovatore (talk) 21:51, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Maybe Kafka´s Metamorphosis may provide some insight into insecticidal angst. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 23:11, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

There's no need to get metaphysical on the poor fellow! Surely there is a biological answer. For instance, while the fly is dying by fly spray do any unusual signals flow to its brain? Plasticup ^T/C 00:59, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, there is a need to get metaphysical. In fact your (apparent) identification of the neurological correlates of perception, with perception itself, is a metaphysical position. --Trovatore (talk) 01:10, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Neurological response is a necessary condition for perception. If the fly has no neurological response to insecticide then the metaphysical argument is moot. Plasticup ^T/C 03:44, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps -- but what if it does have a response? Let's see you try to get outta doing metaphysics then. Wittgenstein and others of his ilk unfortunately managed to convince a bunch of folks that metaphysics is dispensable, but they were wrong. --Trovatore (talk) 05:50, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Blimey, I didn't mean this question to stir up a bout of metaphysical fisticuffs. OK, let me rephrase the question. Do flies have a neurological response to insecticide? I would take it to the science desk, but they're a bunch of geeks over there who can't get girlfriends :) --Richardrj ^{talk email} 09:20, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

You are right, Trovatore, but I was hoping that we could find a metaphysics-free answer. Philosophy is usually my last refuge, after all empirical methods have failed. Plasticup ^T/C 14:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

When I was a kid, I remember losing sleep and having nightmares after seeing a photograph in some kind of science book in which a fly had has half of it's abdomen chopped off - and yet was still eating sugar-water that had been laid out for it. This suggests (albeit superficially) that the fly really isn't smart enough to feel pain. But it's an extremely tough question to answer. SteveBaker (talk) 03:24, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

As I'm sure you've observed, spraying fly spray onto a fly elicits an aversive response. The fly either flies away or writhes if it has received a killing dose. Whether you wish to interpret that as pain or not is up to you. Clearly the fly is suffering some discomfort, alternatively its neural and motor systems are reacting to an aversive stimulus. Pick you word, or read up on your philosophy. As to a specific question above - the signals flowing to the fly's brain are not unusual - they are the standard "I'm dying" signals. Franamax (talk) 10:57, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Are they? Surely the twitching could be a motor response over which the brain has no control. Some bug sprays are neurotoxins, so they could act by killing neurons and shutting down the brain without eliciting any neurological response at all. Plasticup ^T/C 14:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Extension of earlier Question re; USA Congress(es)

I followed the link given in answer to the earlier question and noticed that following JFK's assassination, the 88th Congress House of Representatives' numbers fell BACK to 435 from its higher numbers in 2 previous Congresses. Why was that? 92.20.0.126 (talk) 18:50, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

From United States House of Representatives#Apportionment:

The number was temporarily increased to 437 in 1959 upon the admission of Alaska and Hawaii (seating one representative from each of those states without changing existing apportionment), and returned to 435 four years later, after the reapportionment consequent to the 1960 census.

--71.106.183.17 (talk) 18:57, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Security of Obama relatives

With Barack Obama's relatives spread out in various places, including some living in Kenya slums, if Obama was elected president, wouldn't it be easy for terrorist groups to, say, kidnap one of them and make demands on the U.S.? How would Obama handle such a situation? --71.106.183.17 (talk) 19:00, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't get the impression that he's particularly close to his Kenyan relations; didn't his Kenyan father leave his mother to raise him from a very early age? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 19:18, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

That does not necessarily mean that, should there lives be threatened, he would lack any compassion towards the situation. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 19:42, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Certainly not, but it seems that he would react more as a President reacting to the threatening of civilians' lives, and less like a man whose family has been threatened, in my personal opinion. . -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 22:18, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

What members of the US President's family usually get protection? Isn't it just spouses, children and grandchildren? [5] says "immeadiate family". --Tango (talk) 21:07, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

You might as well ask about terrorists taking anybody hostage—all political figures have family, friends, etc. spread out over a wide area, like most people (perhaps even more so given their resources). No leader worth their salt would let their personal feelings override the needs of the nation. I've seen no evidence that Obama (or McCain) would be irrational in this particular regard. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 23:31, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me that relatives without coverage from the security folks are pretty much as at risk no matter where they live. It's really not going to be any harder to kidnap someone in the rural parts of the USA than in the plains of Kenya - and the cities in Kenya are really fairly modern and well-policed. I can't see why it's a special deal in this case. At any rate - if one used this rather remote risk as a reason not to vote for Obama, then you'd be giving the terrorists power over your ability to choose your own president - which is even more damaging than what a president might or might not do in order to secure the safe release of a relative. SteveBaker (talk) 03:20, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Seems to me that kidnapping a family member of the President of the USA would get you simultaneous demonstrations of "we don't negotiate with kidnappers" and "we used our advanced intelligence capability to locate you, then used our advanced imaging and weapon systems to put a bullet through your head". It's not like the Secret Service is unaware of these possibilities and doesn't plan for them. Country-wide invasion and counter-insurgency may not be a US strong point, but solving a point crisis - my money would be on the US, Franamax (talk) 10:40, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Does university turn you into a illness resistant machine?

I've been thinking, having started University I, like pretty much everyone have got Freshers' Flu. I'm just about coming to the end of the bout but can't help thinking - even after only 3 weeks - I must've picked up some pretty strong immunity to various illnesses. My thinking goes, by the time a student finishes university, will they be immune to pretty much every common strain of every common illness under the sun? With a healthy intake of new ill freshers every year a student must build up one hell of an immune system. What do you think? -Benbread (talk) 20:50, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately there are so many strains of illnesses and they are constantly mutating into new strains that you can never be immune to everything (or even close). People that are exposed to lots of infections (which includes people living in Uni halls) do develop more immunities, though. --Tango (talk) 21:10, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Where I live we get a lot of immigrants and visitors. At any one time about 30% of the population here is both foreign and temporary, mostly from Europe, North America, South America, India/Pakistan, and the Caribbean. They all bring their bugs with them, and as a result I probably have one of the most experienced immune systems in the world. Universities (especially those with geographically diverse populations) do a very similar thing. Plasticup ^T/C 00:52, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

October 10

Hearts

Suppose you start a hand of Hearts with all 13 hearts (or all hearts but one, the remaining card being the queen of spades). How are you supposed to play the first turn? February 15, 2009 (talk) 01:55, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

If you have all 13 hearts, then it doesn't matter how you play it. If you're on lead you'll automatically take all 13 tricks and run; if you're not on lead you can never take a trick so you're guaranteed not to take any points, unless someone else can run, but you can't do anything about it in any case.

If you have 12 hearts plus the queen of spades, if you're on lead, then according to the usual rule you're forced to lead the queen since hearts have not been broken. If everyone ducks, lead the ace of hearts next if you have it (if you don't I'm afraid you're hosed). If someone takes the queen with a higher card, then hold onto the heart 2 if you have it until the first heart lead, on which you'll play it. If you don't have it I'm afraid you're probably hosed. --Trovatore (talk) 02:12, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The 2 of clubs always leads, so if you have all the hearts or all but one and the queen of spades, then you won't be leading. You'll have to throw away on the first turn, breaking hearts. After that, if you have all the hearts, you'll throw away every turn get no points, if you are missing one heart you have to hope it is either thrown away or it isn't the deuce. If the deuce is led, you'll have to win that trick, taking 2 points. If you still have the queen, you should then lead it in the vain hope that someone will have to play the king or ace and then you can throw away for the rest of the game for a total of 2 points. If you have already thrown away the queen (which is wise, since there is a risk of you winning a trick if spades is led), you'll have to win every trick from then on. So, for the first turn: If you have all the hearts, it makes no difference and you'll end up with zero points. If you have the queen of spades instead of a heart other than the deuce, discard it first and hold onto the deuce (or any other heart lower than the one you're missing) in case the other heart is led. If you have the queen instead of the deuce, you're going to have to gamble on whether you think the deuce will be led (and how early in the game) or thrown away. I'm not sure what the best strategy there is, since it depends on the actions of other players. --Tango (talk) 09:32, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Leading in hearts depends on the variation you are playing. The version with Windows uses the 2 clubs lead but other rules do have the person on the left of the dealer leading. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 13:17, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The correct rules are that the left of dealer leads, of course. --Trovatore (talk) 17:31, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the question is regarding the rule that you cant play point cards on the first trick. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.8.100.50 (talk) 17:48, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

There is no such rule, not in the correct version, which as always means "the version I learned". However, if you're playing with such a non-canonical rule, then obviously it has an exception for this case, just as the rule that you can't lead hearts until a point card has been played (whether by sluff, lead, or follow) has to be modified in the case that you're caught on lead with only hearts. --Trovatore (talk) 18:02, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

There are many variations on Hearts, and no one version is canonical or "correct". All these rules are frequently used enough to be considered within the typical Hearts canon... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:21, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The correct version, of course, is the one played in Fleming Hovse, where men are men and the thundering herd is real. --Trovatore (talk) 19:01, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Gametraders

Is Gametraders the only Australian franchise that sells old games?

Link removed.

Cash converters also sells them. 203.202.144.223 (talk) 01:59, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Miss Hawaiian Tropic International

I'm looking for a reliable source for an article. I want to find out who Miss Hawaiian Tropic International for 1989 was. I know who Wikipedia says it was but there's no source. I've tried both the Hawaiian Tropic web site as well as Google and I can't find anything. Thanks. Dismas|^(talk) 03:07, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

this page has pics, but no names. If you can find another pic of the person who it is claimed to be in the Wikipedia article, you could probably look and see for yourself... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 03:20, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

IMDB says its Jennifer Campbell. As does this page and this page and this one too and this one as well. Was this what you were looking for? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 03:23, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Seems like at least three of those links are Wikipedia mirrors, that's bad form. Especially for someone like me, just looking for a picture... Franamax (talk) 10:06, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Quite possibly. I just typed the name from the Wikipedia article into Google, and looked for what was returned. The last link (the table) says that the source is Hawaiian Tropic itself, however. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 12:04, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The Pageant.com source seems the best. IMDb is full of user submitted data. Thanks for the link. I hadn't found that one in my searches. Dismas|^(talk) 20:49, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Copyright question regarding mediaevil images

First off I'd like to say I'm a real copyright noob. I was just wondering if is there could any reason that this image (for example) might be copyrighted? Is it possible for images from the middle ages to be copyrighted? Thanks, --Cameron* 12:57, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the article copyright there is this section

"In the United States, all books and other works published before 1923 have expired copyrights and are in the public domain. In addition, works published before 1964 that did not have their copyrights renewed 28 years after first publication year also are in the public domain, except that books originally published outside the US by non-Americans are exempt from this requirement, if they are still under copyright in their home country (see How Can I Tell Whether a Copyright Was Renewed for more details).

But if the intended exploitation of the work includes publication (or distribution of derivative work, such as a film based on a book protected by copyright) outside the U.S., the terms of copyright around the world must be considered. If the author has been dead more than 70 years, the work is in the public domain in most, but not all, countries . Some works are covered by copyright in Spain for 80 years after the author's death."

Perhaps that helps? 194.221.133.226 (talk) 13:18, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

There's no information supplied with your example image. If we assume that the image is a straightforwards photographic reproduction of a middle ages image, then it is in the public domain. Any claim of copyright on it is more in hope & error, than in reality. Despite this, very many institutions and websites make erroneous copyright claims for public domain items. There are circumstances in which a reproduction might accrue new copyright - but the test is to do with "originality", which in the example you've shown, would appear to be absent. In the US, Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp. is a landmark case in this area. --Tagishsimon (talk) 13:41, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Note that the "a reproduction of something in the public domain is also in the public domain" applies in the US (though not all such companies recognize it at all—e.g. Corbis does not and happily claim copyright on things that are in the public domain, claiming they "own the copyright to the scan"), and not necessarily elsewhere. Some countries appear to recognize the "sweat of the brow" model of copyright (which I think is ridiculous but there you go). --98.217.8.46 (talk) 13:46, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

OK so straightforward photographic reproductions of mediaevil images are in the public domain? I think that's all I need to know then. Thanks so much! ;) --Cameron* 14:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, it might be worth noting that it's not "mediaevil" (which looks like "media evil" and is very strange looking) but "medieval". ;-) --98.217.8.46 (talk) 16:11, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, mediaeval is an accepted variant spelling of medieval. It comes from mediӕval. Gwinva (talk) 20:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The painting itself (presuming it's medieval) is clearly out of copyright - so you could find out where it is and go take a photo of it and do whatever you like with your photo. However, what you have here is a photograph of the painting that (presumably) someone else took. They may well own the copyright on that photograph - thereby prohibiting you from using it. SteveBaker (talk) 20:07, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I believe that in the US, a two-dimensional reproduction of a public-domain image is also public domain. If the image included the frame (assuming there was one), it would be a three-dimensional reproduction and thus copyrighted. If there was something else in the shot, or some fancy lighting effects, or it was an X-ray image, also copyright. A plain 2D repro though, where no creative addition has been made - no copyright. (See Tagishsimon's link above) The image could thus be used on English Wikipedia, which is hosted in the US. To be used on Commons though, it would also have to pass the copyright test of whatever country it was created/first published in. It does get complicated... Franamax (talk) 20:23, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Questions like this are often best addressed at Media Copyright Questions, where there are people who understand the ins and outs of copyright law. It is not enough for things to be out of copyright in the USA, I'm afraid. If the original is held outside the US, and the copies were taken outside the US, then they still need to conform to the nation of orgin's copyright laws (the US cannot cancel someone else's copyright). For example, some original medieval works are held by the British Library. The British Library make copies (by photograph/digital scanning whatever): the BL still holds the copyright on the reproductions. Unless they give another photographer access to photograph/copy their possession, and that photographer/copiest releases their copy into the public domain. Of course, if the BL loaned their original to a US museum, and someone then took a copy in the US, that copy would be copyright free. But the fact is, the BL keeps most of the originals locked in a vault, does not allow copies to be made (other than their own) and thus their works are rarely copyright free. That is a rough explanation, and I can't say I understand all the ins and outs. But you cannot assume that a piece of work is copyright free simply because it is old. If you are in any doubt, approach the owner of the piece. Gwinva (talk) 20:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Emigration from the United States

Is there anywhere to find out information about how many Americans have emigrated out of the United States to other countries in a given time period?

--Wellington grey (talk) 19:41, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

What is the name...

of the famous image of Marilyn Monroe in all different colours? There's four of them and it is parodied alot in shows and games like MySims and The Simpsons to name two. It is often mistakenly called Marilyn Diptych, another of Warhol's works.--Editor510 ^{drop us a line, mate} 20:23, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, the Diptych is pretty much the famous one, but you may want to peruse this list to see if something rings a bell for you. Matt Deres (talk) 20:34, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Caribbean vacation destination

Can anyone think of place in or around the Caribbean that meets the following criteria:

• Beautiful, uncrowded beaches
• Other stuff to do, like historical sites and rainforest nature parks
• Isn't under American jurisdiction
• Isn't on the spring break circuit
• Isn't so desperately poor that there are beggars everywhere
• Isn't Cuba

Mwalcoff (talk) 20:33, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

May I recommend St. Martin, a smalish island in the Antilles which has some unique stuff going for it:

• Despite being relatively small (you can drive a loop around the entire thing in less than 1 hour) it is actually owned by two separate countries. Half the island is Dutch, which has casinos, night clubs, and shopping districts. The other half is French, which has nature preserves, quieter beaches (and even a nude beach! See Orient Beach) and is generally more laid back.
• The airport is Princess Juliana International Airport, which is on the island, and is one of the only airports in the area that can land large planes. Thus, there are less connecting flights, and no need to catch a "puddle jumper" from somewhere else.
• Said airport has one of the coolest beaches in the world next to it. I imagine there is no where else in the world where you can get THIS close to jumbo jets landing and taking off.
• It meets all of your other requirements in spades. It's one of the rare places thats not either a) a spring break mecca (like Cancun) with nothing but drunk 19 year olds running around or b) dominated entirely by "Club Med" style all-inclusive resorts. It's the kind of place where you will spend a lot of time getting out in the local culture at your own pace, and you are not totally insulated from it.

I went there with my family when I was 16 (which is literally half a lifetime ago for me, you do the math) and it is STILL one of the best vacations I have ever taken. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 21:07, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Metric Volume

I've always been taught that litres (L) were an SI base unit but apparently it's not accepted! That is really confusing to me, especially since now there is no possible way to measure volume in the SI. And also, why isn't Celsius on the not accepted page? And how are you supposed to measure volume now? Thanks! Helixer (talk) 20:35, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The SI system only recognizes as "base" units, those units that cannot be reduced to simpler terms. The article on International System of Units explains the 7 "base" units as: meter, kilogram (not gram), second, ampere, kelvin, mole, and candela. All other units can be reduced to some combination of these units. Please note that SI is distinct from the metric system, though several of the units are based on earlier metric units. As to the specific question, since volume is just displacement cubed, using base SI units, you would express volume as m³. The metric system unit "liter" is just cubic decimeters, dm³ which is equal to 0.001 m³. Hope that helps. Just remember that "SI" and "metric system" are NOT synonyms... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 20:45, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and to answer your question on Celsius; the Celsius temperature scale has no sound physical or mathematical basis. From the point of view of physical reality, the scale sets an arbitrary 0 point (the freezing point of water). Temperature is defined as the average kinetic energy of the molecules of a substance. Since something cannot have negative absolute energy (or, if you prefer, nothing can have negative absolute speed), then negative temperature is meaningless (it implies that molecules are going at a speed slower than zero. This is patently nonsensical). Thus, a usable temperature scale, from a scientific perspective, is one that reprsents physical reality, and should not use negative numbers. The Kelvin scale (which, for convenience sake, uses the exact same sized units as the Celsius scale) is the only allowable one. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 20:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Electoral College

Hi, I was hoping someone might explain this to me because I am confused. What is the point of voting if the electoral college is going to decide president and vice president and before a single vote has been cast it seems as they have already chosen Obama (since he has the most pledges), so technically we still need to vote for the electoral but if they have already pledged and decided-it seems strange that we bother with voting at all? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.133.247.171 (talk) 21:46, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

First, distinguish the Democratic Party (United States) presidential primaries, 2008 from the United States presidential election, 2008.

• The primaries (and caucuses) were held in each State between January and June, to select delegates to the 2008 Democratic National Convention in August. By the time the last few were held, it was clear that Obama already had enough delegates for the nomination, so those primaries were, arguably, pointless.
• The election will be in November, to select the Electoral College which votes for the resident in December. There is no certainty about the outcome of this process; either Obama or McCain could win according to recent opinion polls. So it is still worth your while voting. jnestorius^(talk) 21:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

  I'm not sure how an election having a clear winner makes the election pointless... --Tango (talk) 22:12, 10 October 2008 (UTC)