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Revision as of 02:17, 28 September 2008
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Here, we determine which articles are to be featured articles (FAs). FAs exemplify Wikipedia's very best work and satisfy the FA criteria. All editors are welcome to review nominations; please see the review FAQ. Before nominating an article, nominators may wish to receive feedback by listing it at Peer review and adding the review to the FAC peer review sidebar. Editors considering their first nomination, and any subsequent nomination before their first FA promotion, are strongly advised to seek the involvement of a mentor, to assist in the preparation and processing of the nomination. Nominators must be sufficiently familiar with the subject matter and sources to deal with objections during the featured article candidates (FAC) process. Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article before nominating it. Nominators are expected to respond positively to constructive criticism and to make efforts to address objections promptly. An article should not be on Featured article candidates and Peer review or Good article nominations at the same time. The FAC coordinators—Ian Rose, Gog the Mild, David Fuchs and FrB.TG—determine the timing of the process for each nomination. For a nomination to be promoted to FA status, consensus must be reached that it meets the criteria. Consensus is built among reviewers and nominators; the coordinators determine whether there is consensus. A nomination will be removed from the list and archived if, in the judgment of the coordinators:
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Nominations
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Space Science Fiction Magazine
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 01:43, 4 October 2008 [1].
Stonewall riots
- Nominator(s): Moni3, Dank55
- previous FAC
What fun this article was to write. Never will you see so colorful a description of surreal rioting. I had a ball working on it, and I hope you enjoy it. --Moni3 (talk) 15:13, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
Current ref 70 (Christopher Park..) is lacking a last access date.Same for current ref 140 (Dunlap...) and the National Historic landmark nomination ref.
- Otherwise sources look good, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:52, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support - for a well-written, excellently researched and engaging account. I can't see any issues with the images or sources but there are a few disambiguation links that need fixing—according to the checker. Graham Colm Talk 17:11, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- There's a disambig for "hustler" that could mean any and all three of those listed in the disambiguation page. Similarly for "lighter fluid" I don't know enough chemistry to decide which one of those is most accurate, and my sources didn't specify. --Moni3 (talk) 17:19, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for your edits Graham, but I've got questions about some of them. "They were the first instances in American history when gays and lesbians publicly protested against a government-sponsored system that persecuted homosexuals": well, I wouldn't say that, exactly. The 1965 Philadephia protest was public, for instance; it just wasn't something the media were interested in.
- "During the last years of the 1960s, however, many radical political organizations": at the time "radical" was an even more charged word than it is now, and some will complain that calling the entire African American Civil Rights Movement "radical" is POV. I think that's probably why Moni put it the way she did.
- "Police raids were routine on gay bars": I'd prefer "Police raids on gay bars were routine"
- "Tensions ... tightened": tensions tightened? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 02:47, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I left a note in some of the edit summaries to revert any unhelpful suggestions. I didn't like "tensions exploded" perhaps it would be better to find another word for tensions? And, would it be a good idea to mention the the earlier protests? With regard to "radical" is it a non-neutral word? Graham Colm Talk 08:08, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, I'm trying "erupted"; possibly trite, but the other ways I would usually try to fix this aren't available here. Spiro Agnew's favorite phrase was "radical liberals", and "radical" has been POV most of the time it's been used in American politics. I reverted. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 15:27, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I left a note in some of the edit summaries to revert any unhelpful suggestions. I didn't like "tensions exploded" perhaps it would be better to find another word for tensions? And, would it be a good idea to mention the the earlier protests? With regard to "radical" is it a non-neutral word? Graham Colm Talk 08:08, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support: I did some copyediting for this article, and found it to be both well-written and exhaustively researched. In other words, it's a Moni3 piece par excellence. Well done! Scartol • Tok 14:18, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support I don't think I have read an article with better referencing etc. Nice layout too. Dincher (talk)`
Comments I've just copyedited this again. It's very close. I left a bunch of hidden comments about some questions I had. Maralia (talk) 05:46, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- On your blind edits: in an article about how it was necessary for gay people to be secret and there were no places to go, I think it's worth pointing out that organizations like the DOB and Mattachine could only meet in private homes.
- Hm. Not to split hairs, but do you realize that we haven't explicitly said that about either Mattachine or DOB? Nothing is said in this paragraph about where Mattachine met, and about DOB, we only said that the women met in their living rooms to form it. Maralia (talk) 22:38, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Both Mattachine and the DOB formed in private homes, and met there for the first years of their existences. Let me think of how to incorporate that. If you're sharper than I am right now, Dan, feel free to add it. I'm drawing a spectacular blank. --Moni3 (talk) 22:53, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I can add a ref that covers it, Intimate Matters by D'Emilio and Freedman, later tonight. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 23:39, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, I take that back, this might not be everything we need. The ref is "D'emilio, John, and Freedman, Estelle B (1988). Intimate Matters, Harper & Row. ISBN 0060158557". The quote from page 320 is: "During the fifties, these groups struggled to exist, as they operated with scanty resources, no models for how to proceed, and the ever-present threat of police harrassment. But they did survive, establishing chapters in several cities..." That's something but it doesn't talk about where they met. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 00:55, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Naw, man. I have the sources (Mattachine: Marucs, p. 24-25 and DOB: Gallo, Marcia (2006). Different Daughters: A History of the Daughters of Bilitis and the rise of the Lesbian Rights Movement, Seal Press. ISBN 1580052525 p. 1-5) but after my little drinking binge there, maybe I can take another look at integrating the fact that both groups formed in private homes. --Moni3 (talk) 01:08, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, I take that back, this might not be everything we need. The ref is "D'emilio, John, and Freedman, Estelle B (1988). Intimate Matters, Harper & Row. ISBN 0060158557". The quote from page 320 is: "During the fifties, these groups struggled to exist, as they operated with scanty resources, no models for how to proceed, and the ever-present threat of police harrassment. But they did survive, establishing chapters in several cities..." That's something but it doesn't talk about where they met. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 00:55, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I can add a ref that covers it, Intimate Matters by D'Emilio and Freedman, later tonight. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 23:39, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The Elephant Walk Bar in San Francisco was famous in the mid 1970s, in part, for being the first gay bar to have plate glass windows out front. The plywood at the Stonewall was seen as necessary (as reported by my sources) to keep the police either from seeing into the bar from the street, or coming through the windows during a raid. While raids were routine almost down to procedural in the bar, the police didn't necessarily respect the property of bars they were raiding. Having to chop through plywood was a deterrent.
- I'm not sure what is causing the confusion in Rejection of gay subculture. If I can explain it here, I will. Just let me know.
- The section that confused me was this:
- The Stonewall riots marked such a significant turning point that many aspects of gay and lesbian subculture developed before Stonewall were denied and forcefully ignored. Historian Martin Duberman writes, "The decades preceding Stonewall ... continue to be regarded by most gays and lesbians as some vast neolithic wasteland". In particular was bar culture, or reflections of secrecy and shame that were developed out of necessity.
- The last sentence refers to something prior ("in particular was"), but it's not clear what. Additionally, "reflections of" doesn't make any sense to me. Is the gist of this bit (excluding the quote) something like "The Stonewall riots marked such a significant turning point that many aspects of prior gay and lesbian subculture, such as the bar culture and decades of shame and secrecy, were forcefully ignored and even denied"? I'm not asking you to adopt that phrasing - only trying to understand your intent so I can better explain my confusion. Maralia (talk) 22:38, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think you nailed it, Maralia. Done! - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 22:45, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - Here are some comments:
- Why is "undersecretary of state" in the first section not capitalized? I believe this is a proper title. And, who was the Undersecretary of State at the time, who made the statement. Since you are providing a quote, I suggest being more specific here.
- "The case eventually went to the Supreme Court, which in 1958 ruled that One, Inc. could mail its materials through the U.S. Postal Service." - might it be better to link "the case" or just "case" to the article on that case, rather than liking "went to the Supreme Court"? and the "Supreme Court" could link to the Supreme Court of the United States.
- "Tthe social repression of the 1950s " - typo there.
- There are some New York Times citations in the article. Are these articles available online? if so, they should be linked.
- The sources appear all reliable.
Not specifically related to this article, but I noticed the 1969 photo of Stonewall Inn was submitted by the "Contact us" OTRS system. Do you know if the New York Public Library submitted it? are they submitting others? or did the photographer submit it? Having this image in the article adds a lot, and it would be good to get others for other articles. --Aude (talk) 06:14, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Undersecretary capitalized, I think. Maybe I need Dank55's help on that. I don't know. I mean, an office should not be capitalized unless it's a title: The senator from Illinois said... vs. Senator Barack Obama said... similar with "president". Ack! Dan!
- You're right on the money with "president" and "senator" Moni3, but anything would look slightly awkward here ... undersecretary of State? undersecretary of state? I'd go with Undersecretary of State X, where X is their last name. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 18:53, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll get the guy's name in my source, which is at home right now. Give me 8 hours or so.
- If only because I wanted the Supreme Court case linked to a larger word than "case". Because "case" linked by itself seems like overlinking. If you want it changed, I can do that, though.
- I blame the Tt on Maralia's very helpful copyedit *cough* but it's changed.
- Some of the NYT stories are pay-per-view. Do you still want them linked?
- I contacted the New York Public Library (Tom Lisanti in the digital collections department) for this article and for the images in Barbara Gittings. I wrote a very humble and almost apologetic email asking for permission to use the images. For Gittings' article, he allowed only two from the Kay Lahusen/Barbara Gittings collection. But he seemed a lot more agreeable to use the Diana Davies image of the Stonewall Inn. So be nice if you contact him. I, however, submitted the actual image to OTRS. Image:Stonewall Inn 1969.jpg I actually uploaded to Wiki, attached it to the permissions given by the NYPL, but an OTRS volunteer also uploaded it to Commons. Li'l bit o' confusion there, but I sent them the image, which is what I think you were asking.
- Thanks for the review, Aude! --Moni3 (talk) 12:32, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - With the changes, the article looks good. It's well-written, solidly sourced, etc. Also, thanks for the answer regarding the NYPL. I have seen material from Library of Congress and other such sources appear on Flickr, so was hoping the NYPL photos were part of some project (that I was unaware of) to submit content to Wikipedia. Nonetheless, it's good to see they were willing to help out in this case. --Aude (talk) 04:37, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Regarding the OTRS aspect, Moni3 forwarded us the email with the photo attached, and since I couldn't find it on Wikipedia or Commons anywhere, I uploaded it myself. I probably shouldn't have put the source as the Contact us page, but I like to advertise that wherever possible. :) howcheng {chat} 17:36, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Undersecretary capitalized, I think. Maybe I need Dank55's help on that. I don't know. I mean, an office should not be capitalized unless it's a title: The senator from Illinois said... vs. Senator Barack Obama said... similar with "president". Ack! Dan!
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Harry Potter Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Kaunas Fortress Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Gregory House
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 01:43, 4 October 2008 [2].
Farthest South
- Nominator(s): Brianboulton (talk)
This is a departure from my normal menu of expedition histories and explorer biogs - a general account of the convergence on the South Pole from the sixteenth century to Amundsen's 1911 conquest. It may seem at times a bit like an extended school geography lesson, but I think it's more interesting than that. The article has been through GA and PR, and has been extended and improved since then, so I hope it's of FA quality now. Brianboulton (talk) 11:03, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments Wikipedia seems to have quite the coverage of the South Pole. Very interesting articles, indeed. :-)
- "To quite the coverage?" Something missing? Brianboulton (talk) 00:42, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Indeed, whoops. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 00:45, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "To quite the coverage?" Something missing? Brianboulton (talk) 00:42, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What makes http://www.mundoandino.com/ a reliable source?
- This is a very large site which provides exhaustive information about South America, its islands, mountains etc. I have only really looked in detail at the Diego Ramirez page, where the information seems to be spot-on accurate from what I know from other sources, and very thoroughly and professionally displayed. Brianboulton (talk) 00:42, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, since the information is available in other sources, do you think you could replace it with those? –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 00:45, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I can find nothing in or about mundoandino.com that indicates anything to make it a reliable source. See Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:16, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, the more I look into it, this: Enjoy! Your amigos of MundoAndino.com. at the bottom of the page doesn't bode well for reliability. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:19, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, I've changed the source to Knox-Johnston. The MondoAndino site was essentially for travellers, but it did have some interesting information in it. However,I've transferred it to external lnks.Brianboulton (talk) 09:25, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, since the information is available in other sources, do you think you could replace it with those? –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 00:45, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This is a very large site which provides exhaustive information about South America, its islands, mountains etc. I have only really looked in detail at the Diego Ramirez page, where the information seems to be spot-on accurate from what I know from other sources, and very thoroughly and professionally displayed. Brianboulton (talk) 00:42, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Is http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/eurvoya/magellan.html reliable?
- Well, it was prepared by the Applied History Research Group at the University of Calgary. It apears to be factually accurate, and I've no reason to doubt its reliability.Brianboulton (talk) 00:42, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Works for me. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 00:45, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Student Temporary Employment Program (STEP), from a Royal Bank of Canada Teaching Development Grant (TDO) ?? Reliable? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:03, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Where is that? Did I miss that in the article? –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 02:13, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Sandy, what is it about STEP involvement that casts doubt on the reliablity of the source? Or is it the Bank of Canada you are questioning? The reliability of a source depends, surely, on how and by whom the material was prepared. This site was prepared by a reputable University department, and is supported by a lengthy bibliography. I'd replace it if there were convincing reasons for suspecting it, but at present I don't see them. Brianboulton (talk) 09:58, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If we click on "Home" from the source and follow up by clicking on "The Applied History Research Group" link, we are brought to http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/. I think we can rely on the information on that page to believe that the tutorials are reliable. Quote: "Given the inter-disciplinary nature of these tutorials, committees were formed to guide their content, design, and production. The steering committees are made up of subject experts from applicable departments and faculties at the University of Calgary, Red Deer College, and Mount Royal College. History students at the senior undergraduate honours level and graduate level make up the project teams and are responsible for the research, the narrative, and the web design for each of these tutorials. " Students might be the authors, but they are edited by professors of the relevant fields. Jappalang (talk) 08:38, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Sandy, what is it about STEP involvement that casts doubt on the reliablity of the source? Or is it the Bank of Canada you are questioning? The reliability of a source depends, surely, on how and by whom the material was prepared. This site was prepared by a reputable University department, and is supported by a lengthy bibliography. I'd replace it if there were convincing reasons for suspecting it, but at present I don't see them. Brianboulton (talk) 09:58, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Where is that? Did I miss that in the article? –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 02:13, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Student Temporary Employment Program (STEP), from a Royal Bank of Canada Teaching Development Grant (TDO) ?? Reliable? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:03, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Works for me. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 00:45, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, it was prepared by the Applied History Research Group at the University of Calgary. It apears to be factually accurate, and I've no reason to doubt its reliability.Brianboulton (talk) 00:42, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Otherwise sources look good.
–Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 13:04, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well I think it's an extended school geography lesson :P Image comments:
- Image:Magellan 1810 engraving.jpg appears to have some vandalism/inappropriate cmts on the image page.
- Image:James Clark Ross.jpg has duplicate headings.
- All images have proper dates/licenses/authors, et al, but the image description pages are absolute messes. It would be nice if there were all formatted using templates and proper headings.
--Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 15:08, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments—There are elements of beauty in the writing, but it does need fixing here and there. Someone else, very good, needs to go through it very critically. I almost wrote "Support", but I'd like to come back in a while and re-evaluate. It's very promising.
- Thank you for those kind words. Brianboulton (talk) 00:42, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Why the laboured title? Needs to be more explicit so that search words will locate it. Why the initial caps when it appears in the main text?
- I'm surprised you think a two-word title is "laboured". I could call the article "Convergence on the South Pole", but that would be laboured. Or is it the parenthetical addition you don't like? As to the capitalisation, Farthest South as a concept is frequently capitalised in polar literature, and equally frequently not. To me the term lacks some impact when not capitalised. It's a question of preference, but I accept there are other views. Brianboulton (talk) 00:42, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Rather than the sexist language, why not "reach by explorers"? There's another instance, "men", shortly after. Not necessary, and rather exclusionary nowadays.
- Remiss of me to retain the sexist language. Both have been changed. Brianboulton (talk) 00:42, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Belief in this land persisted well into the 18th century"—Surely the 19th century (you've already mentioned 1773, so I'm confused; belief in the existence of this land"?
- "the existence of" is good, and I've incorporated this. Belief in the existence of a fertile southern land persisted into the 18th century until knocked on the head by Captain Cook. Thereafter, although belief in the land continued to exist, they knew it would be barren. I have clarified this in the text.
- You give years for Cook's voyages (twice), but leave us in the dark for Weddell's and Ross's: "in the early 19th century"? (I'm guessing.)
- You guess (more or less) correctly - first half of 19th century, now included in the text. Brianboulton (talk) 00:42, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Again, why R and P?
- Less justification for these, so I've removed them. Brianboulton (talk) 00:42, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "the honour of first achieving the ultimate Farthest South, by reaching the South Pole itself, fell to the Norwegian, Roald Amundsen, in December 1911"—No; this sounds as though he was somehow appointed to do it first. Reword. Tony (talk) 15:46, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- (last point) Reworded.Brianboulton (talk) 00:42, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
PS These are examples from the lead alone. Tony (talk) 15:47, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I am arranging for someone is going to go through the text, as you suggest. Thank you for your comments. Brianboulton (talk) 00:42, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support (from Ruhrfisch). I have read this and feel it meets all the FA criteria, as it is well written, has sound references and excellent images. My quibbles follow but are ideas / suggestions, and not actionable requests (except for the full stop):
- First caption - The Amundsen-Scott South Polar Station is shown in the background, across a field of ridged frozen ice, or "sastrugi" this is a complete sentence and needs a full stop. Also isn't all ice "frozen"? Is the word "frozen" really needed?
- Agreed both points. Also I've wikilinked sastrugi.
- Would it make sense to include the fact that the South Pole is at 90 degrees south early on? Also in the "Other discoveries" section, would it make sense to give the degrees south for each of these places - most people will not be familiar with how far south the Falklands or South Georgia are? This might also be useful for some other locations described that are not new records.
- To the first point, yes. To the second, I'm not so sure. This article is about the convergence on the South Pole, not, basically, about the general discoveries of land in southern latitudes, of which those mentioned in the article are just a few examples, to provide some historical continuity. To put extra information in on these marginal areas might smack of the "extended geography lesson" (see comments at top) which I am anxious to avoid.
- Would it make sense to briefly mention the subsequent activities at the South Pole - the establishment of the base there, etc? Perhaps a brief "Legacy" section?
- Would a map of Antarctica and nearby land masses, perhaps with numbered dots to show the various Farthest South records, be useful next to the table of records?
- I'd certainly consider this, but I would need help with the map-making. It could take a while.
- I made a quick base map here Image:Antarctic farthest south map.png - would something like this work? If so we can discuss it on my talk page or the article's talk page. If not, I will delete the map. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 13:49, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I will discuss on your talkpage Brianboulton (talk) 14:57, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I made a quick base map here Image:Antarctic farthest south map.png - would something like this work? If so we can discuss it on my talk page or the article's talk page. If not, I will delete the map. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 13:49, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd certainly consider this, but I would need help with the map-making. It could take a while.
- Well done overall and congratulations on a very interesting article, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:18, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for your helpful comments, much appreciated. Brianboulton (talk) 09:38, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support - I have scrutinised every sentence of this fascinating article. I have made a few edits, but if I have introduced any errors please, please revert them. (I am not as gifted as Tony). Brian has a beautiful writing style; where others tend to write in absolute past tenses, Brian brings life to his prose and allows the reader to re-live the adventures. I fully support this article's FA candidature. Graham Colm Talk 19:11, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That is most generous - thanks. Brianboulton (talk) 20:11, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support - I just gave this a thorough copyedit. I left one hidden comment on a very minor issue. This is well written and engaging; a featured topic just waiting to happen. Maralia (talk) 04:12, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you Maralia. I picked up the hidden comment re Puerto San Julian & dealt with it. Brianboulton (talk) 22:48, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support as of this version Comments on this version — Jappalang
Lead
"After such routes had been established and the main geographical features of the earth had been broadly mapped, the lure for mercantile adventurers was the great fertile continent which, according to myth, lay hidden in the south."
- Should "south" be capitalised here?
- I tend to capitalise "south" when it is a specific reference, as in "Deep South", or "Farthest South", but not when it is a general direction. Brianboulton (talk) 08:39, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"despite occasional glimpses of what polar historian Roland Huntford describes as "the baleful truth", in the form of the icy and inhospitable islands that were discovered in the waters of Southern Ocean."
- If these "occasional glimpses" were the discoveries, then would "that were discovered" be redundant? The phrase "waters of" might be redundant as well, considering we are talking about islands and an ocean (although the phrasing sounds nice).
- You are right on both counts: you cannot "discover" glimpses, and oceans are made of water. A case of over-enthusiastic phrase-making, I fear. I have removed the redundancies. Brianboulton (talk) 08:39, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Second thoughts! Perhaps a moot point, but it was actually Huntford's "baleful truth" that was occasionally glimpsed. This truth was manifested by the discoveries of islands. With this in mind I have partially restored my original wording, but please feel free to comment further if you think it necessary. Brianboulton (talk) 12:23, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hmmm... so what you mean is that people believed in Terra Australis despite occasional glimpses of Huntford's "baleful truth", which is later backed up (proven) by the discoveries? In that case, "the baleful truth" needs clarification. I presume "the baleful truth" is that there is no temperate or tropical fertile land at the farthest south, and the "glimpses" were of the evidence to this truth. Could we go with "Belief in the existence of this land of plenty persisted well into the 18th century, people were reluctant to believe what polar historian Roland Huntford later described as "the baleful truth"—a cold, harsh environment in the south whose existence was borne out by the discoveries of icy and inhospitable islands in the Southern Ocean."? Jappalang (talk) 13:39, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have put the two versions - yours and mine - side by side, and quite honestly, to me either is acceptable. However, I like your reference to "a cold, harsh environment", so I'm going for your amendment, very slightly modified.Brianboulton (talk) 20:48, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hmmm... so what you mean is that people believed in Terra Australis despite occasional glimpses of Huntford's "baleful truth", which is later backed up (proven) by the discoveries? In that case, "the baleful truth" needs clarification. I presume "the baleful truth" is that there is no temperate or tropical fertile land at the farthest south, and the "glimpses" were of the evidence to this truth. Could we go with "Belief in the existence of this land of plenty persisted well into the 18th century, people were reluctant to believe what polar historian Roland Huntford later described as "the baleful truth"—a cold, harsh environment in the south whose existence was borne out by the discoveries of icy and inhospitable islands in the Southern Ocean."? Jappalang (talk) 13:39, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Second thoughts! Perhaps a moot point, but it was actually Huntford's "baleful truth" that was occasionally glimpsed. This truth was manifested by the discoveries of islands. With this in mind I have partially restored my original wording, but please feel free to comment further if you think it necessary. Brianboulton (talk) 12:23, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You are right on both counts: you cannot "discover" glimpses, and oceans are made of water. A case of over-enthusiastic phrase-making, I fear. I have removed the redundancies. Brianboulton (talk) 08:39, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"After the first confirmed landing on continental Antarctica was finally achieved, in the late 19th century, the quest for Farthest South latitudes became, in effect, the "race for the pole"."
- Does "After the first confirmed landing on continental Antarctica in the late 19th century, the quest for Farthest South latitudes became, in effect, the "race for the pole"." read better?
- Yes, smoother.
"However, the first ultimate Farthest South, the South Pole itself at 90°S, was achieved by the Norwegian, Roald Amundsen, in December 1911."
- Somehow, I think there is no other ultimate Farthest Souths, right (there is no more south than 90°S)? Hence, there could not be a first ultimate, but only the ultimate; so, "However, the first man to reach the ultimate Farthest South, the South Pole itself at 90°S, was the Norwegian, Roald Amundsen, in December 1911."
- I made a somewhat hamfisted attempt to change this sentence in response to an earlier review comment. Your version is more elegant, and I'll use it. Thanks. Brianboulton (talk) 12:42, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Early voyagers
"The early voyagers of the 16th and 17th centuries were not seeking high southern latitudes, but the expansion of trade routes."
- Although the lead does introduce the article, it is a summary. I sort of feel that the first section should introduce the reader to the greater text. Something just did not click for me on reading this opening sentence. I would think of something like "In the 16th and 17th centuries, voyagers were seeking to expand trade routes and looked for various routes to shorten the travel time or new trading grounds. Knowing that the seas to the North are filled with ice, they viewed the unexplored South as a possible venue of new routes." By the way what are "high southern latitudes"?
- I agree that the intro to this section was rather weakly worded, and I have strengthened it, though not quite in the way you suggested. I think it important to mention that Spanish-Portuguese maritime rivalry was the chief factor that precipitated the search for a SW route to the Pacific, and I'd rather not draw in the ice-filled waters of the north. I'm not sure at what point people realised that the waters of the north were filled with ice - Frobisher's voyages were 50 years after Magellan - and I don't want to lose the focus of this article. Tell me if you think the revised intro is stong enough. "High southern latitudes" means latitudes tending towards 90°, but the phrase no longer appears in the text.Brianboulton (talk) 14:23, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ferdinand Magellan
"Because little if anything ..."
- I think we are generally advised against starting sentences with the "Because" conjunction...
- Fixed Brianboulton (talk) 14:23, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Here Magellan found a deep inlet which, on investigation, proved to be the strait he was seeking, later to be known by his name."
- Could we work in a link to Straits of Magellan in there?
- Fixed Brianboulton (talk) 14:23, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The end of this paragraph is a bit abrupt when considering the subsequent sub-sections. Perhaps a "His discovery of this south passage round the continent encouraged other expeditions to explore this route." or such statement to connect the sub-sections?
- I'm not too sure about this. His discovery was of a passage through, not round the continent, and was accepted for 50+ years as the only route to the Pacific (Hoces's accidental "discovery" notwithstanding). Investigation of the Drake Passage really only began with the Nodal brothers, 90 years after Magellan. Brianboulton (talk) 14:39, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Francisco de Hoces
Drake needs to be introduced rather than just named "Drake" here. "British privateer Sir Francis Drake" can set up the context for why he would plunder, not explore, in the next sub-section.
- Fixed Brianboulton (talk) 14:39, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sir Francis Drake
"Following Magellan's route, Drake reached Port St Julian on 20 June, where he stayed for nearly two months before sailing south, with his fleet now reduced to three ships and a small pinnace."
- Would breaking it up into "Following Magellan's route, Drake reached Port St Julian on 20 June. Harbouring for nearly two months, Drake left the port with a reduced fleet of three ships and a small pinnace." work?
- Fixed - except I don't like "harbouring" in this context so I've slightly reworded. Brianboulton (talk) 14:39, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"driven far to westward and southward"
- I am not certain "to ...ward" is sound. Am I right to say it is more customary to hear "driven far west- and southward" or "driven far to the west and south"?
- Fixed (your latter suggestion) Brianboulton (talk) 14:39, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Garcia de Nodal expedition
"... brothers Bartolome and Gonzalo Garcia de Nodal leading the Garcia de Nodal expedition. During the course of their passage the expedition discovered a small group of islands about 60 miles (100 km) SW of Cape Horn, at latitude 56°30’S, which they named the Diego Ramirez Islands after their pilot, Diego Ramirez."
- I believe the "Gonzalo Garcia de Nodal leading the Garcia de Nodal expedition" is a case of noun plus -ing. Perhaps "... brothers Bartolome and Gonzalo Garcia de Nodal. Their Garcia de Nodal expedition discovered a small group of islands about 60 miles (100 km) SW of Cape Horn, at latitude 56°30’S, during the exploration of the Drake Passage. The islands were named the Diego Ramirez Islands after the expedition's pilot."
- I've more or less followed your suggestion, with a slight tweak. Brianboulton (talk) 14:48, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Captain James Cook
"second great voyage"
- Heh, a bit biased, perhaps?
- Yeah - great no more. Brianboulton (talk) 15:05, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
James Clark Ross
"carry out work on magnetism"
- Would replacing "work" with "research" be better?
- The "work" was largely the recording of data rather than investigating it. They usually used the word "work" to describe their activities - the word "research" would have been thought of by them as effete and French ("recherche"). Brianboulton (talk) 15:05, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Carsten Borchgrevink
"following Ross's route of 60 years previously"
- I would suggest "following the route Ross had taken 60 years previously", based on a little joke I was thinking of how Ross took 60 years to travel his route (perhaps it is just my silly little mind).
- Fixed. Brianboulton (talk) 15:05, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Robert Falcon Scott
"The Discovery Expedition of 1901–04 was Captain Scott's first Antarctic command. The published objectives of the expedition made no mention of the South Pole, but a southern journey was within Scott’s remit to "explore the ice barrier of Sir James Ross [...] and to endeavour to solve the very important physical and geographical questions connected with this remarkable ice formation". <break> This southern journey was undertaken by Scott, Edward Wilson and Ernest Shackleton. Although, according to Wilson, the intention was to "reach the Pole if possible, or find some new land", there is nothing in Scott's writings to suggest that the Pole was a definite goal."
- There seems to be a tad of redundancy: both paragraphs state that the expedition's publishings mentioned no objective on making towards the South Pole. The two paragraphs could be merged.
- Agreed, and merged. Brianboulton (talk) 15:27, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Polar conquest
"Then followed the ascent, via the newly discovered Axel Heiberg Glacier, to the plateau, and the final march to the Pole."
- Who is the subject?
- Fixed. Brianboulton (talk) 15:27, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think that is about all I can nitpick on. Likely, several are not actionable based on personal subjectiveness. Generally, the article is in excellent shape. Jappalang (talk) 06:37, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for these numerous suggestions, most of which are now incorporated into the text. Where I haven't done so, I have explained why. I appreciate the care taken towards enhancing the article. Brianboulton (talk) 15:27, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support A very impressive article you've written. I've made a couple minor wording tweaks in the past couple days, but feel free to revert if you don't agree with them. While this looks like a drive-by support with little meaning, this is clearly one of the most well-written articles I've seen at FAC. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 02:26, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/United States Naval Gunfire Support Debate
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 01:43, 4 October 2008 [3].
Age of Empires II: The Age of Kings
The Age of Kings is arguably the best real-time strategy video game ever made. I've worked on this one a great deal lately as part of the V 0.7 push. It had a fair bit of copyediting done by Pagrashtak and I think it's ready now. Of course I'm happy to act on any comments raised here. Giggy (talk) 00:13, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment FA is above my ability so I'm not actively participating, but here's a few suggestions which may (or may not) be of relevance:
*Where are the images?
- I read User:Angr#A parable and found it quite convincing. Since all the reviews linked (heck, most of the pages linked) as sources contain screenshots, I was seeing what reaction going without a screenshot would get. Do you think I should include one? Giggy (talk) 01:01, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
*Do single and multiplayer modes need sub-headings? They both look like they would slide onto the end of the main gameplay section, multiplayer in particular is extremely short for a subsection.
*I see the acronym RTS being used but it isn't listed in brackets after the first example of 'Real Time Strategy'.
*"The three human classes of military" (when describing the rock-paper-scissors mechanic) shouldn't that be three classes of infantry? Standard infantry can be referred to as just that in order to separate them from the general infantry class. Using 'human' there almost leads me to expect talk of lizardmen or cat-headed women (whoops, wrong game).
*"Resources can be converted to and from gold at the player's market." Resources can be bought or sold for gold at the player's market, causing the market price to fluctuate with every transaction?
That's it. Good luck with the nomination, Congrats and thank you for your work on this important VG article. Someoneanother 00:45, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- A comment: my guess is lack of images is due to the fact that there aren't any that are free that could be used appropriately within the article. The one of the cover is OK, but any more are simply decoration, and cannot be used as per our fair use rules. I'll see if I can give this article a look through. AOE rocks! (And yes, my nick is based on the cobra car cheat :D) -- how do you turn this on 00:57, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments ref #31 needs a page number, though otherwise sources look good; links check out with the link checker. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:03, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Comment: I've done a copy-edit of the article, fixing some awkward phrasings and such. I plan to continue this later. Issues:
- There are problems with the citation of references, however, specifically with datelinks. If you'll notice, half of the dates appended to the web refs are linked, while the latter-halfish is not. This should be remedied.
- The section on Buildings section is poorly referenced, but I'm working on that now.
I'll come up with more comments soon. —Anonymous DissidentTalk 01:07, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- All the refs should now be formatted consistently. For the buildings section see my 12:33, 27 September 2008 (UTC) comment to How do you turn this on. Giggy (talk) 14:08, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: "Where are all the images" is a long way from "I'm having difficulty visualizing some concepts". I encourage folks to judiciously engage NFCC#8 before adding or suggesting images. If the article can be understood without them, they probably won't be supported. Эlcobbola talk 01:07, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That's fair enough, but considering how many points referred to in the article could be illustrated with a single screenshot, I think there's at least a case for suggesting one. For instance, the graphics themselves are given a lot of scrutiny in regards to their quality, the scale is praised, the formations are praised, a wealth of different units are on offer, the villagers being both genders are discussed. A single image could show a group of misc. units in formation in a walled town, next to a castle or wonder, with villagers working in the background - it wouldn't be decoration, it'd be a visual reference for several aspects of the game specifically highlighted in the article. Whether that's enough or not I'll leave to you guys. Someoneanother 01:35, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Agree with someone here. A single screenshot could provide a ton of illustrative information if properly framed. If a review screenshot doesn't quite have all the contents you want, I'd go and take a screenshot of the game yourself. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 15:26, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments:
- "...highly popular Age of Empires..." Is it necessary to say it's highly popular?
- "...The civilizations have varying strengths and weaknesses with regard to..." Should that not be "regards"? (I don't know personally)
- "...Civilian units, called "Villagers"..." Is villagers capitalized?
- "...There are five campaigns in The Age of Kings, based on historically-based sets of scenarios..." Only three appear to be mentioned... and only briefly. Maybe a brief idea of what happens on each scenario would be good.
- "...Every player has a "population" limit..." Why is population in quotes?
- Why is Town Center capitalized?
- ..."Extensive cheating in multiplayer games of Age of Empires..." Is cheating supposed to link directly to where it does?
- Ooh, didn't know we have a Cheating in video games article. Improved link target. Giggy (talk) 13:07, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
-- how do you turn this on 12:17, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I also notice some sections have very sparse citations, and the Units section has only 2, and Buildings only 1. Is everything covered in those references (I had a look at the refs, all seem reliable). -- how do you turn this on 12:28, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments (David Fuchs) - "arguably the best real-time strategy video game ever made", emphasis on "arguably", I'm sure the Starcraft fans might disagree :P (then again, I've never been able to win a game without typing in those cheats, so who am I to complain.)
- Agree that there should be some more sourcing in the gameplay section. Just use the gigantic manual the game comes with.
- "The sequel to Age of Empires, The Age of Kings continued its historically themed real-time strategy trend." feel this is unnecessary with the earlier paragraph's statements and awkward to boot. Hell the entire second paragraph needs some rephrasing. Why not point out the historical time period (the Middle ages) in the first sentence, and then talk about objectives?
- No mention of campaign/gametypes in the lead?
- " Some reviewers were critical of the presentation of units, which were seen as bland and uninteresting, others with The Age of Kings' similarity to Age of Empires" the way this is phrased, "others" isn't exactly clear.
- "The game won multiple awards and has had a significant impact on future games in the its genre." Let's play spot the bad word addition!
- more to come... (reply to it all in a block below these, if you please.)
--Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 15:24, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for your comments, they should all be fixed. But in order... I've lost my copy of the game (snifs) but I'm going to add a bit more sourcing to the gamplay section. The other stuff is reworded/done as suggested. Giggy (talk) 00:34, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Like I said, there's the full manual on Replacementdocs, so you shouldn't have any issue citing statements in gameplay. More comments (reply in a block below them, please):
- "Like many real-time strategy games" - who cares? Just talk about this game.
- "There are five campaigns in The Age of Kings,
eachcontaining" - redundancy - "The four major resources" - are there more than four? Last time I checked...
- "The Age of Kings supports multiplayer over the Internet, or via a LAN" spell out LAN
- " A multiplayer game can incorporate up to eight players, with all of the single player game modes available. The MSN Gaming Zone supported the game, until the service closed on June 19, 2006. Alternative services, such as GameSpy Arcade, were recommended as a replacement.[9]" Why say 'incorporate'? Why not just state how many players. Also, what about the Mac platform multiplayer (Gameranger?)
- "Walls and towers are defensive structures and cannot train units. Another type of building available is the Wonder—" Um, that was an abrupt change of subject, especially for the beginning of a paragraph.
--Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 19:53, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks again David. All the comments have been resolved. Giggy (talk) 23:57, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Further comments (adding down here to prevent loss of my remarks from above):
- Reception and legacy - last paragraph feels very short and disjointed. There are several references to points that I think need expansion. How did the tournament go? Is there anything more that could be said about it? How official is the guidebook really? The three key concepts also seem to be rather unrelated and out-of-place, and seem to constitute a somewhat weak and mispositioned end to the article (I know it requires no true "end", but why are those things in particular mentioned last?)
May be more soonish. —Anonymous DissidentTalk 06:03, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- About the tournament, what's in the article is all I've been able to find. Everything else refers to a tournament for the expansion, The Conquerors. The guidebook, as far as I can see, is "official" in the sense that the game's designer wrote it. He probably knows the game best. I see your point, however, but I, um, don't really have any ideas on what to do to improve it. Do you have any ideas? Giggy (talk) 11:35, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hmm. Maybe integration elsewhere is needed. I'm not sure. I'll keep pondering. —Anonymous DissidentTalk 14:44, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've integrated it elsewhere. I think it is fine now. —Anonymous DissidentTalk 05:05, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hmm. Maybe integration elsewhere is needed. I'm not sure. I'll keep pondering. —Anonymous DissidentTalk 14:44, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments. Great article. However, I suggest a table of civilizations would add more value and information to the article; something like this:
Civilizations in The Age of Kings[1] | |
---|---|
Britons | Byzantines |
Celts | Chinese |
Franks | Goths |
Japanese | Mongols |
Persians | Saracens |
Teutons | Turks |
Vikings |
- And about the images, I'm not knowledgeable about copyrights issues, but I used to see in video game websites tons of screenshots for each game. Did they all get permission to use them? Why isn't the case here? Thank you. Eklipse (talk) 10:47, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I dunno, it seems to be leaning too much towards a game guide, don't you think? With the images, the review websites probably do get permission of some sort from Microsoft/ES. However, we work based on our own non free content criteria and a core aspect of that is to use as little non free material as possible. Hence there isn't a multitude of images. Giggy (talk) 11:35, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- A note: "...is a real-time strategy (RTS) computer game.." - is it not a computer AND video game, considering the PS2 release? —Anonymous DissidentTalk 05:10, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Also: many of the ref names have the term "Age of Kings" in them, but the web titles do not have the italicised form of the game's title. Should they be, or do we not bother with the italicising of web ref titles? —Anonymous DissidentTalk 05:14, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - this article looks to be in pristine condition. Well done Giggy. —Anonymous DissidentTalk 02:24, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support Leaning toward support by karanacs. I thought this was a well-written article. I am actually a big fan of this game, though, so I may have missed places where there is too much video game terminology. Some comments:
Should the article mention that a player can have multiple town centers, or is that too much detail?Quotes should have a citation at the end of the sentence, even if that means duplicating the reference in subsequent sentences. Check Reception and legacy for issues with this.There is no mention of priests/monks. I would consider this a special category of unit that needs it own brief explanation.- What makes this about.com site a reliable source? Michael Klappenbach. "Age of Empires 2: Age of Kings Game Page". about.com. Retrieved on 2008-09-28. [4]
Karanacs (talk) 21:08, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for your comments Karen. In order; I think the multiple Town Center stuff is probably too much detail (especially when it's not as big a deal in this game as in, say, Age of Mythology). I checked the reception section and fixed one quote/ref issue, let me know if I missed any. I added some info on monks. Re. the source, according to about.com they have experts in their field writing everything up, and Michael Klappenbach has some qualifications. I haven't found much about him, however, elsewhere on the Internet so I've tentatively removed that reference and statement it was sourcing. Let me know if you think the page linked to is enough for reliability. Thanks again for your comments. Giggy (talk) 00:40, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Further comments - David Fuchs
- "The Age of Kings was to be similar in design to its predecessor, but the design team were careful not to make it too alike. Nonetheless, they attempted to appeal to the vast demographic who played Age of Empires." This doesn't do much for me. Rephrase to be less awkward? The design team was conscious of attempting to capture the broad appeal of the first game without making the game's design too similar" or something.
- "Because the original AI did not "cheat"," - perhaps a parenthetical would help for non-gamers here, explaining what "cheat" means in this case?
- "To overcome the other significant objection" - I'm sure there were other objections, so change to "another"
- "he complained of" - complained about?
- "It and the trigger system were able to interact, and this was used heavily in the game's campaigns" - passive voice, revise (definitely don't start a sentence with 'it' if you can!)
- The last sentence of development should be put into a paragraph somewhere.
- There are some places where refs don't come in the proper progression, e.g. [35][34]. Fix 'em!
- Ditto with the lone sentence of the reception; doesn't really seem that important, so consider removing.
- I suggest taking the influence of AoE II and expanding it into a subjection of reception, 'Legacy'. Then, I suggest adding information about the later games in the series, something along the lines of Myst. It doesn't have to be as detailed, but something along those lines.
- I still think a general gameplay image in the gameplay section would be highly desirable, illustrating the villagers, et al. If you upload it I can write a kickass fair use rationale if you need it :P Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 22:12, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Most of these are done. The last sentence of development I just removed, it was originally in legacy but it really wasn't doing much anywhere (same with reception). The reception and legacy section (ironically :P) does talk about legacy but I added some extra details as suggested. Not sure on another image; the one being used contains some of the stuff you've asked for (if you want to move it and change the caption a bit, be my guest. The rest should be done. Cheers, Giggy (talk) 00:40, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Eh, really, I think a better representational image can be found. Also, it's so small as to make identifying game aspects impossible. :P Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 02:45, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Is this the sort of thing you're after? Giggy (talk) 04:21, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It's far better, yes. You can talk about the female villagers and the lot. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 04:22, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, added to the article. To clarify, do you think I should use it and the other screenshot, or just this one (leaning towards just this one)? Giggy (talk) 04:27, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeah, axe the cathedral, it's not really that important. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 13:08, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, added to the article. To clarify, do you think I should use it and the other screenshot, or just this one (leaning towards just this one)? Giggy (talk) 04:27, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It's far better, yes. You can talk about the female villagers and the lot. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 04:22, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Most of these are done. The last sentence of development I just removed, it was originally in legacy but it really wasn't doing much anywhere (same with reception). The reception and legacy section (ironically :P) does talk about legacy but I added some extra details as suggested. Not sure on another image; the one being used contains some of the stuff you've asked for (if you want to move it and change the caption a bit, be my guest. The rest should be done. Cheers, Giggy (talk) 00:40, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- support' Ok, that takes care of my issues, I'll support now. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 13:56, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Great game, great article. All issues appear to be fixed. -- how do you turn this on 13:58, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Aaron Eckhart Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Lancaster Barnstormers
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 17:33, 13 October 2008 [5].
Richard II of England
This is a complete rewrite of a B-level article. GA-nomination has been skipped, but it has undergone at least a partial peer review. All major issues of the man and the reign have been addressed, and the article is sourced with reliable sources throughout. The heavy reliance on one source (Saul, 1997 - c. 50%) I believe is a natural consequence of that work's standing as the only up-to-date, academic, full-scale monograph on the king (the last such dates to 1941, and must be considered outdated). Lampman (talk) 16:04, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment All the links to the Oxford website are subscription-only. Also, is there any reason ref #5 isn't split up into separate references by page? Otherwise sources look good. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 16:37, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- There was a recent discussion about this on the talk page, and the consensus seems to be to use doi on subscription required sites, so I did that. As for ref #5, that's same thing - Oxford Dictionary of National Biography - so since it's a webpage there's no page numbers. Lampman (talk) 17:28, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Whoops, misread, I thought ref #5 was a published work. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 17:31, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Image:Wilton diptych2.jpg has been nominated for deletion, see commons:Commons:Deletion requests/Image:Wilton diptych2.jpg. The others seem fine to me. Giggy (talk) 23:46, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Quite a few dablinks need fixing. Giggy (talk) 23:58, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Overlinked: why "deposed", "tyrannous", "courtiers", "retinue", and for god's sake "personality disorders" (which will give us a very 21st-century skew on the concept). This article is not for the nine-year-old grade-school student, and we can assume that the reader speaks good English (if not, there's a radical thing called a dictionary, or even Wiktionary, but that's over to children and non-native speakers). The more lexical definitions you link, but more you dilute the considerable number of high-value links: we don't want to do that. Tony (talk) 16:03, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for your comments. Though I agree with you in principle about overlinking, I'm not sure I agree with the examples you've given. The history of the indentured retainer in medieval England is a complex one. It is probably not well understood by most non-experts, much less so by nine-year-olds, and I don't know of any dictionary that would fully explain it. As for "personality disorders", this is deliberately a 20th/21st-century expression, because - as you will see from the relevant section - it relates to modern historians' assessment of the king, from a psychoanalytical perspective. I did remove a handful of other links though. Lampman (talk) 15:48, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments
- "Richard became second in line to the throne when ..." here or below it should be mentioned he was 4 at the time, to save us doing the maths.
- Done
- "This was preferred over a regency led by the king's uncle, John of Gaunt, ..." "to", not "over"? Preferred by whom?
- Changed
- "was later used as a Messianic analogy, as can be seen in the Wilton Diptych." perhaps rather overphrased?
- Changed
- the silent sitting on the throne was "on solemn festivals" according to the source.
- Added
- capital D for Duke of Ireland, no? This was exceptional & unique & a new creation, one of which is worth saying.
- Added
- "The duke of York, who was acting as keeper of the realm, had little choice but to ..." has he been linked before? I think not. Again sb Duke.
- No, only in a footnote. Linked
- "– were revealed to plan the murder of the new king, " - grammar
- Changed
- "wherefrom Richard's two wives came" - ?!
- Changed
- "and gave them @ badges with his White Hart @ ." add livery at either @
- Done
- " most recent academic biographical book " "biography" then?
- That would be a bit inaccurate, as he has been the subject of an extensive biographical article in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography since that (see Tuck, 2004)
- "Richard's exclusive reliance on the county of Cheshire " not previously mentioned & worth expanding on.
- It's mentioned in the sentence that begins "By installing de Vere..", but I didn't make the connection between Chester and Cheshire clear enough. Fixed
- The tomb already contained Anne
- Added
- Court culture and patronage. International Gothic, which I have just revamped, is worth a link. There was a general increase in royal grandeur across Europe at the time, and royal pretensions. The over life-size Westminster portrait appears to be unprecedented in England, if not Europe, and again fits in with international trends. Chaucer was not just a civil servant who wrote; he read aloud to the court, & seems to have been rewarded for his writing. "Geoffrey Chaucer, served the king as a diplomat and a clerk of The King's Works before devoting himself fully to literature" is wrong - his two careers apparently peaked over the same years. In this context his relationship to Gaunt might be worth a mention. Did not Gower's change of heart follow Richard's death, and include some canny backdating of his works?
- I've added IG as a "See also" link, and I've rewritten the sentence on Chaucer. As for Gower, it's hard to say. He might have been in the service of Bolingbroke as early as 1393,[6] though he could of course not openly criticise Richard while he was still king. While these are all interesting issues in and of themselves, I think it would be undue weight to get too far into it in an article about Richard II. In Saul's words: "there is little or no evidence directly to connect the poetry of the court with Richard's patronage." (Saul (1997), p. 361.)
- Generally there are not many pictures - the miniature of Chaucer reading could go in. The Liber regalis coronation miniature is here, and there are more from the Gruuthuse Froissart around.
- I've added another couple of images
- Aren't we going to have the handkerchiefs?
- This I considered trivia, though I wrote a note about it on the talk page
Johnbod (talk) 23:51, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support Changed to Oppose, see below. - although the article slightly lacks excitement, which is a pity given the subject. I would still like to see more on the court & its culture culture, since Richard was one of the few medieval English monarchs interested in the arts - perhaps rather more so than in politics. There should also be a concluding passage explaining Henry's treatment of his memory and how his overthrow eventually led on to the Wars of the Roses. Johnbod (talk) 22:37, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Question: Several sources state 6 January as his death date, not 14 February. Which is right? -- how do you turn this on 20:09, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I would have to know which sources those are. Most reliable, academic sources operate with a date on or around the 14th (Pollard (2004): "Most chroniclers believed that he died on 14 February, but how he died will never be known for sure."), but, as the article says, he was starved to death in secrecy, so we'll never know with certainty when exactly he died. Lampman (talk) 22:20, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Jan 6 was his birth date of course - is there perhaps confusion? Johnbod (talk) 22:28, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- There are books I own that mention it as an alternate date. Here is an online source I'd consider reliable. -- how do you turn this on 22:32, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hardly an RS when there are so many other better ones. Johnbod (talk) 22:39, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That's just one, and it happens to be sourced to a book. I have a few kings and queens books at home. I'm certain they say 6 January as an alternative date. I'll check them when I get back. -- how do you turn this on 22:41, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Saul's Richard II seems to feel that the death happened in February, and discusses the contemporary sources that give dates between the middle of Feb to the last day of Feb. Tuck's ODNB article agrees. It's going to take more than the peerage site (which uses Wikipedia as a source for some of the other information!) to make this other than a probable transcription error (Which seems likely given that the day and month given for his death is the same as his birthdate) Ealdgyth - Talk 03:15, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That's just one, and it happens to be sourced to a book. I have a few kings and queens books at home. I'm certain they say 6 January as an alternative date. I'll check them when I get back. -- how do you turn this on 22:41, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Weak support It was an enjoyable read, and I tweaked up the text a bit. Though some things, like the arts are lacking, as Johnbod notes. Wasn't he the first English king to have his portrait painted? Surely that's something interesting that should be mentioned? -- how do you turn this on 22:50, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support with a couple of quibbles.
- I may have missed it, but you mention in "Coming of Age" the third paragraph, Gaunt and Buckingham, but I don't know where you introduced Buckingham before? Flogging my brain, isn't Thomas of Woodstock meant here? I seem to recall that one of his earlier titles before Gloucester was earl of Buckingham...
- Good catch! Gloucester, Buckingham and Thomas of Woodstock are indeed one and the same person, but it's inaccurate to call him Gloucester before he received this dukedom in 1385. I've amended this, and put in a brief explanation.
- When was de Burley executed?
- Added
- Second crisis... third paragraph, the sentence "The house of Lancaster..." is really awkward. Perhaps "The house of Lancaster not only possessed greater wealth than any other family .,..."
- Done
- Overall, an excellent article and one that doesn't neglect anything on the recent scholarship I'm familiar with, although it should be noted that I'm much more an Anglo-Norman person than a Plantagenet person. One book I can recommend is Prestwich's Plantagenet England 1225-1360 part of the new Oxford History of England series. Excellent overview of recent scholarship. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:04, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Problems could arise from the "Ancestors of Richard II of England" being in the closed position. The "see also" should be integrated. Also, the "English Royalty House of Plantagenet" seems to be very bulky and possibly causing problems. The "Titles and style" in the info box seems a little off ("The King" as a title, when there is already a "King" title, for instance). Ottava Rima (talk) 14:37, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose by karanacs. I thought the article was interesting and informative, but the prose really didn't seem to be up to FA standards everywhere. I've listed some examples below.
- "Joan of Kent had been involved in a marriage dispute between Thomas Holland and William Montacute, Earl of Salisbury, from which Holland emerged victorious" - this is a very interesting way to phrase this concept. I assume you meant that two men were fighting over her hand, but "involved in a marriage dispute" could mean a lot of other thins. Is it really important to know this information, anyway?
- "In addition to discontent with the royal council came an increasingly heavy and more wide-ranging burden of taxation,." - this is very awkward to me.
- The article needs a comma edit. There should be no comma in instances like this "he did this, and did that" unless both halves are complete sentences by themselves ("he did this, and he did that")
- "Richard had, in spite of his young age, shown great personal qualities in his handling of the rebellion. " - this sentence seems like someone's opinion. Should it be attributed directly in the text to whoever wrote the sentiment?
- The prose need to be tightened. For example, "It is only with the Peasants' Revolt that Richard starts to emerge clearly in the annals" should be, "After the Peasants' Revolt, Richard began to emerge clearly in the annals" - except in this particular case what does this mean?
- second example: "set about on the task of negotiating a permanent peace with France" - why not just "began negotiating a permanent peace with France"?
- "In spite of great sums of money awarded to the Empire, the political alliance never gave any military results" - does this mean that the Empire did not attempt to do anything militarily, or that they lost every time?
- Watch for passive voice. Most of the time sentences in passive voice can be rewritten. This helps flow and can tighten the prose quite a bit
- "Awkward phrasing: "De la Pole came from an upstart merchant family, and when Richard made him chancellor in 1383, and created him Earl of Suffolk two years later, this provoked the hostility of the more established nobility"
- "and obviously never did, as Richard would be dead within four years" - this might work better as a footnote; it seems a bit jarring where it is.
- A template should not be used as article text (with its own section). The template on ancestors should go at the bottom of the article.
Karanacs (talk) 18:08, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments:
- "denied these charges, that would have amounted to treason" which is treason, the charges, or the denial?
- Changed
- Moral Dilemma Support I'm on board with Karanacs in thinking that the writing is just a teeny bit uneven in places, like a skating rink with a slightly warped wooden floor. My heart says weak oppose (Don't count that, Sandy!), but I'm afraid if I do that then I'll cross the nom over some intangible No Consensus tipping point and make it have to wait (if the wise and sensible waiting rule is accepted) another 28 days.. so Support. But please don't dump this article like bad news and move on to another one; please find a couple folks to smooth the writing. See forex "According to Hereford Norfolk"... Ling.Nut (talk—WP:3IAR) 13:29, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - Good job and much improved. Just one thing, the 5th reference "Tuck (2004)" should be broke down into specific page references. This will be a pain in the arse to do no doubt, but all the others show specific pages. - True as Blue (talk) 01:23, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support
Placeholder-oppose-the writing is awkward in places with some redundant wording, I will try to fix this as I go, but revert me if I change the meaning inadvertently. This oppose is a placeholder really as it does need a bit of a tweak before being up to scratch. Nearly there, though and this FAC should be successful.Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:15, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Abbey of St. Andrew - someone should make a stub really. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]- I never wikified this; someone else did but I've removed. A Google search on "Abbey of St. Andrew" and Bordeaux returns very few results, most of them relating to the birth of Richard II. I honestly don't think this is a very notable institution, apart for being the birthplace of a king. Lampman (talk) 13:26, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
::De la Pole came from an upstart merchant family - unless 'upstart' has a particular contemporary connotation I have missed, this comes across as negative POV.
::::ok, that's fine then, I wouldn't worry about quote marks but maybe a link to an explanation in teh future may be a good thing. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:07, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I need to sleep now but will chip in tomorrow. It still needs some massaging. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:30, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Additionally, the seealso section is a problem -
I don't understand why International Gothic is there - if important, there should be some elaboration in Court culture and patronage section, or somewhere, if it is too tenuous, then the link should be just dropped. As well, the Cultural depictions of Richard II of England should be a short paragraph rather than just a link. Shakespeare's plays have been crucial in their representations - as he is a playwright and not a historian, I'd take the para on shakespeare out of Character and assessment proper, and make a subsection cultural depictions at the bottom - with some mention about appearing in numerous films and their treatment of him, did any deal with the homosexuality, were they faithful to shakespeare or have some attempted to use more direct historical records?Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:07, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Thanks for your contributions. I try to satisfy everybody, but when one person says International Gothic should be included and someone else says it should be taken out that becomes impossible. In or out, I don't really care much. As for the cultural depictions, to the best of my knowledge Shakespeare's play is the only culturally significant fictional portrayal of the king, and as such doesn't seem enough to warrant a separate section. Of course the play has a long performance history, but in my opinion that belongs in Richard II (play), and not here. Lampman (talk) 13:26, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Excuse me, you now have three reviewers saying the cultural section needs expansion - please don't try and play us off against each other, we are clearly all saying the same thing! Johnbod (talk) 13:31, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually I was talking about the International Gothic link - there seem to be opposing views as to whether or not it should be included. You're saying that it should be removed if it's "too tenuous", and I'm leaning towards this opinion. As for culture, it has been suggested above that more be added e.g. on the biographies on Chaucer and Gower. I have expressed my views on this; that this would constitute undue weight since there is little evidence to connect either of these men to the king. However, we have to distinguish between court culture in Richard II's own time, and posthumous depictions of the king. If I understand you correctly the latter was your main concern, and as I said above, I believe a performance history of Shakespeare's play belongs in that article, not here. Lampman (talk) 15:32, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It seems I was misreading your comments above, where you said adding more on the poetry would constitute "undue weight". I don't agree on this, but it is an acceptable point of view. However it now seems you meant this to apply to any expansion of the whole culture section, which three reviewers have clearly asked for. This swings me back to an oppose. Let's be clear no one asked for International Gothic to be a See also - the request was for some of the easily available and significant additional material to be added to the section to justify the link, which I might add you are very well qualified to do, but it seems you have dug your heels in over this. Given the level of detail accorded to the political history of the reign, this goes against the comprehensiveness of the article. Johnbod (talk) 18:33, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually I was talking about the International Gothic link - there seem to be opposing views as to whether or not it should be included. You're saying that it should be removed if it's "too tenuous", and I'm leaning towards this opinion. As for culture, it has been suggested above that more be added e.g. on the biographies on Chaucer and Gower. I have expressed my views on this; that this would constitute undue weight since there is little evidence to connect either of these men to the king. However, we have to distinguish between court culture in Richard II's own time, and posthumous depictions of the king. If I understand you correctly the latter was your main concern, and as I said above, I believe a performance history of Shakespeare's play belongs in that article, not here. Lampman (talk) 15:32, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Excuse me, you now have three reviewers saying the cultural section needs expansion - please don't try and play us off against each other, we are clearly all saying the same thing! Johnbod (talk) 13:31, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for your contributions. I try to satisfy everybody, but when one person says International Gothic should be included and someone else says it should be taken out that becomes impossible. In or out, I don't really care much. As for the cultural depictions, to the best of my knowledge Shakespeare's play is the only culturally significant fictional portrayal of the king, and as such doesn't seem enough to warrant a separate section. Of course the play has a long performance history, but in my opinion that belongs in Richard II (play), and not here. Lampman (talk) 13:26, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Additionally, the seealso section is a problem -
- Erm, I don't know enough about international gothic to know whether it is significant or not, just that it shouldn't just be a seealso link. You already have a paragraph on the shakespeare, and it wouldn't be a section, but a subsection of the last section. Also, there have been many films, and any major motion picture release can be argued to be culturally significant - given he is a controversial figure, its is important to note whether subsequent protrayals dipcti him in a negative or positive light. Like it or not, this is how 99.9% of people who read teh article are gonig to come in contact with the subject. It doesn't have to be much.
No-one would oppose on a succinct paragraph (already half doen with the shakespeare material already there, and a brief summary of some of the film versions. I may have some material accessible at my mothers' but it may take a day or two to add). Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:25, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Erm, I don't know enough about international gothic to know whether it is significant or not, just that it shouldn't just be a seealso link. You already have a paragraph on the shakespeare, and it wouldn't be a section, but a subsection of the last section. Also, there have been many films, and any major motion picture release can be argued to be culturally significant - given he is a controversial figure, its is important to note whether subsequent protrayals dipcti him in a negative or positive light. Like it or not, this is how 99.9% of people who read teh article are gonig to come in contact with the subject. It doesn't have to be much.
- I was talking about what you called "elaboration in Court culture and patronage" - ie the cultural aspect of Richard's own court (a centre of International Gothic). I'm not aware of other significant later depictions of Richard, though there may well be some. The cultural aspects of Richard's court seem more relevant to me - frankly too many "history" biographies are let off the hook on this here, just as too many political historians underplay the cultural aspects of the subjects of their biographies. Johnbod (talk) 22:41, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- (Edit conflict) Well, I don't mean to be difficult; so since the consensus is that there should be more on the culture, I've added a bit more than 1k on this. As for movies, as far as I've been able to find there hasn't been a single one made (though there have of course been some adaptations by the BBC and other TV stations). Lampman (talk) 22:47, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I hadn't realised there were no films of this play at all! Wow. The stuff on Giledgud performing it and then a different play of Richard are interesting, but neither are unequivocally important. On reading it, I can see how the shakespeare material blends in to the natural flow of where it is currently placed, thus moving it creates as many problems as it solves. OK, not a deal-breaker and over the line. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:47, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- (Edit conflict) Well, I don't mean to be difficult; so since the consensus is that there should be more on the culture, I've added a bit more than 1k on this. As for movies, as far as I've been able to find there hasn't been a single one made (though there have of course been some adaptations by the BBC and other TV stations). Lampman (talk) 22:47, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Notes: mixture of citation methods. See Wikipedia:CITE#Citation templates and tools; do not mix the citation template with the cite xxx family of templates as they provide different styles. Pick one or the other, not both. There were numerous inconsistencies thoughout the citations in dashes and plural page nos; I think I got them all. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:22, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for your fixes, it seems I was too sloppy with my "p"s. I've converted all the citations into cite xxx. Even though I generally prefer these, I used the citation template in places because the cite xxx template is sometimes too restrictive, but I found a way to make it work. Lampman (talk) 15:32, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Changed to Oppose- see below & above on culture section, plus various other points not dealt with - there really should be a concluding section linking Richard's deposition to the War of the Roses. Johnbod (talk) 18:33, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The culture section is expanded. As for the Wars of the Roses, that's already commented on in the introduction. Lampman (talk) 22:47, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Indeed: "...Shakespeare, whose narrative held Richard's misrule and Bolingbroke's deposition responsible for the fifteenth-century Wars of the Roses.[1] This is an interpretation no longer accepted today." - this does not exactly cover my point, and actually is rather confusing. What is no longer accepted today? If it is that Henry's deposition led to the WoR then this should be expanded on, as it would seem rather a necessary precondition to get a good civil war going.
- When editing, I noticed some American spellings which of course should not be there. Has the article been checked for ENGVAR? Johnbod (talk) 02:51, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have added material to the section myself, and I think it now covers the ground ok. I note that a book by Jenny Stratford], "Richard II's Treasure" is to be published next March by Boydell, and will no doubt contain additional material worth adding. Johnbod (talk) 19:52, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - changed back as the article meets FA standards, though some points made by various reviewers should still be dealt with. Johnbod (talk) 14:41, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support—Damn good read. The overlinking seems to have been addressed. Does MoS allow single quotes for words as words? ('gyration'). Not sure I understand it, anyway—is it in quotes because the source (ref 38) used it? That's unclear, so the word as word versus the quote from source functions are confused. I'd use a different word without quotes. Tony (talk) 04:55, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
PS and Lampman, are you going to do a little reviewing yourself? We'd love a bit of help from skilled people. Tony (talk) 04:56, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for your support. MoS seems to prefer double quotes, so I changed that throughout. I used "gyration" because this is the word that is most often used about this event in the literature (not just ref 38; do a Google Book search for "Richard II" and "gyration"). It's a rather obscure word, and today mostly used in geometry, so I put in the more contemporary "circuit" in parenthesis. I appreciate all the comments here, and you're right I should probably give some back. I'll be on the lookout for a subject where I feel I can contribute. Lampman (talk) 12:43, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support
Weak opposeIn general, I think this is an excellent article. I read it through twice and learned quite a bit - that is my favorite kind of FAC reviewing. There are just a few places that are a little vague or poorly explained:
The first major challenge of the reign was the Peasants' Revolt in 1381, during which the young king comported himself well, and played a major part in suppressing the rebellion. - "comported himself well" seems like a strange choice of words to me
- Changed
By 1389 Richard had regained control, and for the next eight years governed in relative harmony - harmony with whom?
- Expanded
For the next two years Richard's rule was seen by many as tyrannous - by many chroniclers?
- Expanded
In 1399, after John of Gaunt died, the king disinherited Gaunt's son, Henry of Bolingbroke, who had previously been exiled. Henry invaded England in June 1399 with a small force that quickly grew in numbers. - It seems like these two events are connected - could we show that more explicitly?
- Expanded
This is an interpretation no longer accepted today - "today" will go out of date - perhaps "twentieth-century historians"?
That wouldn't really work, as you can see I've based this on late-twentieth/early-twenty-first sources. I changed it to "Contemporary" - surely if historic consensus should change radically, the whole article would need to be rewritten anyway?
though this does not exonerate Richard from responsibility for his own destiny - fluffy
- I've changed it a bit, but I'm not quite sure how else to word it. It must be seen in conjunction with the next sentence, which is explanatory.
Historians agree that, even though his policies were not unprecedented or entirely unrealistic, the way in which he carried them out was too extreme, and this led to his downfall. - "too extreme" is a bit vague
- Changed
Shortly after Holland's death in 1360, Joan married Prince Edward. - It is unclear whether they were married in 1360 as well.
- Added
This anecdote, and the fact that his birth fell on the feast of Epiphany, was later used in religious imagery, as can be seen in the Wilton Diptych. - Could this imagery be explained, rather than just referred to?
I noticed an inconsistency in the capitalization of "Commons" - I wasn't sure whether it should be capitalized or not.
- I like to use uppercase when speaking of the lower house of parliament, and lowercase about the social category of non-nobles
Although that year's poll tax was the immediate cause of the Peasants' Revolt of 1381, the root of the conflict lay in deeper tensions between peasants and landowners, which were in turn caused by the demographic consequences of the Black Death and subsequent outbreaks of the plague - a bit convoluted
- Split up
On 28 June at Billericay he effectively ended the Peasants' Revolt. - How?
Despite his young age, Richard had shown great personal qualities in his handling of the rebellion. - "personal qualities" is a vague phrase
- Changed
It is only with the Peasants' Revolt that Richard starts to emerge clearly in the annals. - It might be worth explaining to the reader what "the annals" are.
- Wikilinked
De la Pole came from an upstart merchant family,[25] and when Richard made him chancellor in 1383, and created him Earl of Suffolk two years later, this antagonised the more established nobility. - awkward wording
- Split up
Richard's close friendship to de Vere also caused displeasure, exacerbated by the earl's elevation to new title of Duke of Ireland in 1386. - caused displeasure to whom?
- Expanded
Furthermore, he assured legal backing from Chief Justice Robert Tresilian that parliament's conduct had been both unlawful and treasonable. - slightly awkward wording
- Changed
Towards the end of the 1390s began the period that is often referred to as the "tyranny" of Richard II. - could be worded more strongly
- Removed "often"
- The passive voice is what is causing the weakness. Awadewit (talk) 18:47, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Activated
The fines levied on these men brought great revenues to the crown, but the legalities of the proceedings were questioned. - Who did the questioning?
- Added
He was then free to develop a courtly atmosphere in which the king was a distant, venerated figure, and art and culture, rather than warfare, were at the centre. - The article claims that art and culture were at the center of Richard's court, yet the reader has no idea of this until the very end of the article. I'm wondering if some hints of this can be added to the biography section?
- I've deliberately kept the political and cultural history apart for clarity. I'm not sure how to make this change without re-writing the whole article, but I'd be happy to hear concrete suggestions
Chroniclers, even those less sympathetic to the king, agreed that Richard was a beautiful man, possibly in a somewhat feminine way - This is a strange statement - perhaps we could just quote the chroniclers?
- Changed to quote form
Another major historiographical question concerns Richard's political agenda and reasons for its failure. - "another" is a weak transition
- Changed
Image:Richard II of England.jpg - Could we try and find the source link for this image again?
The sourcing and images look good to me. I am not enough of an expert to judge whether or not the artistic patronage section should be expanded. Awadewit (talk) 18:46, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Note - I expanded it somewhat myself last night, after my comments above, & would not now oppose on this. Johnbod (talk) 19:54, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks - it is good to know that - I feel reassured! :) Awadewit (talk) 11:33, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for your comments and copyediting. Please let me know if the changes are satisfactory, or if there is more. Lampman (talk) 15:18, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks - it is good to know that - I feel reassured! :) Awadewit (talk) 11:33, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Melbourne Airport
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 00:32, 5 October 2008 [8].
The Greencards
- Nominator: Rootology (talk)
- previous FAC (00:12, 18 July 2008)
Hi, I would like to try to renominating this. It has been up in July 2008 at the above link, and before that in June 2008. In the interim it became a Good Article. I want to try again, almost 100 edits later. Cla68 and Andreasegde have helped out on copyediting, and I think it's much better now. As far as I can tell, every criticism has been addressed. It's been physically restructured as well to have similar structures and layouts as other FAs for various bands. I was thinking of trimming back the historical information on the band members seen under The Greencards#Formation as I've replicated the material (and cut some already!) to the various subarticles for the band members and also a bit for the album articles. The history of the formation of the Greencards is a core part of the majority of the sources on the band, and a major aspect of the subject itself--three highly trained foreigners basically forming a niche supergroup that has redefined an extremely American musical style. What else does it need, from where it stands now? Thanks!! rootology (C)(T) 05:44, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I was going to post this on the talk page, but saw it's at FAC so came here instead. A note on the images; if you have an image taken in (say) 2004, don't use it in the section on 2000 (the first year I saw in the Formation section). And if this means you have more images than you can fit into one section, it's OK, you still have your Commons gallery. Also, the infobox image needs a caption. Giggy (talk) 05:49, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I rotated the images around to fix this, and pulled the extraneous images. I captioned the image, too. Thanks Giggy. rootology (C)(T) 06:01, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've made a stack of edits to the article (copyediting, MOSing, other stuff), so please check over them! I'm popping out now but I'll take another look tomorrow. Giggy (talk) 06:05, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - sources addressed last FAC. I too note the dead link showing up with the link checker tool, otherwise looks good. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:31, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you! Like I mentioned above, I fixed the issue of the dead link. rootology (C)(T) 23:17, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments Great to see some good music at FAC for a change! :)
- Often labeled as part of, and said to be representative of the "newgrass" movement, they draw from Irish traditional, European gypsy, rock 'n' roll, folk balladry, and Latin American musical sources. Links please. What is "European gypsy"?
- Raised in South London, McLoughlin began to perform country music shows with his family on weekends, influenced by George Jones, George Strait and Ricky Skaggs. Link Ricky Skaggs, and the others if they have articles.
- Young and Warner knew each other previously and, according to Warner, had been drawn to bluegrass and American roots music through an appreciation of George Jones and Merle Haggard. Would read more smoothly if the comma was before the "and".
- The third paragraph of the first section needs a copyedit. Seems as if every sentence starts or contains a "Before..." or an "After...".
- They named themselves The Greencards, for the fact that all three band members carried United States green cards. I don't quite like "for the fact" in this context.
- Given a noon to 3 pm time slot, they surprisingly began to fill the pub with patrons week after week, with fans there calling them the "Bluegrass Bunch". Which time zone? Also, "with" is a poor connecting word.
- Some more information in the "Movin' On (2003–2004)" section would be nice. Right now, it's the same block of text that's in the album's article.
- During the summer segment of the 2005 tour with Nelson and Dylan, Kym Warner wanted to have the opportunity to pick Dylan's brain, but never had the chance. What?
- Eamon McLoughlin is a regular blogger for Country Music Television.[2] After the Grammy Awards, he wrote about the band's experience at the event. Somewhat of a cliffhanger. What did he write?
- In the See also section, Bill Monroe, despite being the "inventor" of bluegrass, doesn't seem very relevant.
Well done article overall. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 19:35, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi Julian, take a look now? I've fixed everything you mentioned, except expanding further (yet) the Movin' On section. That material actually was in the The Greencards first, and I'll start digging up more sources on that first album (it got the least press of all of them). And yep, their music was a wonderful find--my wife and I completely accidentally stumbled upon them attending a Paperboys show. We were very early, paid admission, and thought The Greencards were opening. Turns out, it was a totally separate show with their own openers on earlier! Pure dumb luck find. :) rootology (C)(T) 23:17, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Looks good. I'd like to see a little bit of more information for that one section, and then I'll happily support. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 23:25, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think I've got that section expanded out about as far as I might be able to get it for now without starting to dip into random blogs and sources that would be borderline RS for a featured article. They unfortunately didn't get a ton of widespread press until the second release of Movin' On, which came right before Weather and Water, when they sort of exploded all over. rootology (C)(T) 00:32, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Looks good. I'd like to see a little bit of more information for that one section, and then I'll happily support. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 23:25, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi Julian, take a look now? I've fixed everything you mentioned, except expanding further (yet) the Movin' On section. That material actually was in the The Greencards first, and I'll start digging up more sources on that first album (it got the least press of all of them). And yep, their music was a wonderful find--my wife and I completely accidentally stumbled upon them attending a Paperboys show. We were very early, paid admission, and thought The Greencards were opening. Turns out, it was a totally separate show with their own openers on earlier! Pure dumb luck find. :) rootology (C)(T) 23:17, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "The Greencards are a progressive bluegrass band that formed in Austin, Texas, and is currently based in Nashville, Tennessee." - need a consistent "is" or "are" throughout the article. Giggy (talk) 12:23, 28 September 2008 (UTC) A full review and a support soon, I promise.[reply]
- I've left comments on the musical style section here. Giggy (talk) 07:22, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. I helped copyedit the article and put the external links section in the web citation format. I think the article meets the FA criteria. Cla68 (talk) 02:04, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for all your help, Cla. rootology (C)(T) 06:40, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I originally read this: "...were invited to tour with Bob Dylan and Willie Nelson in the same year"" to mean that the band was invited by BD and WN separately in the same year; later saw otherwise... can move "in the same year" to an earlier position in the sentence?
- I also know what you mean by "is not as unlikely as it may seem", but I just can't find it in my heart to let that go.. it appears too WP:POV-ish, even if its idea is kinda self-evident. Ling.Nut (talk—WP:3IAR) 13:34, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That's a direct take from the wording of Mario Tarradell, the author of the source I quoted McLoughlin's "it's ironic" bit from, here. Tarradell calls the idea outrageous, I used the wording unlikely. The idea of them being "foreigners" playing such an American form of music is such a major bit of all the stories about them, I didn't want to leave that off--it's like the perfect exclamation point to it all. Is that still too ORy since Tarradel basically says the same thing I did? How about this wording? It's built entirely from the literal quoting, wording, and attribution in the WFAA source, so I think that would nuke even any shade of OR. rootology (C)(T) 13:45, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support but - 1. "Movin' On (2003–2004)" section, put the sample music under the main box per MoS. 2. "Weather and Water (2005–2006)" The left music sample may seem a little odd (this is aesthetic, and not an actual problem). 3. "Viridian (from 2007)" Image should be under the main template. 4. "See also" should be integrated into the text so people can see why they should look over at the other pages. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:32, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Giggy (talk) 14:38, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Looks very good, leaning support. Some things:
- "The band was founded in 2003 by Kym Warner and Carol Young from Australia, and Eamon McLoughlin from England, who met in Texas." - it's very awkward with all the commas, but I understand what you're trying to say. Maybe break up the nationalities into another following sentence with some extra info so it doesn't feel so tacked on?
- "early- to mid-2009" - check WP:DASH to see if that space should be there or not.
- "with a worldly feel" - that tells me nothing. Do you mean with a style reminiscent of world music? 'Cause I could get behind that.
- There are places where there are little introductions and flair language which doesn't enchance the prose, ex. "Early on..." - go through and remove these redundant elements
- "is not as outrageous as it may seem" POV language - if this is what the talking head actually said, quote it. Otherwise rephrase.
- fix instances of passive voice, ex. "Their first performance together as a band" to "The band's first performance"
- My overall suggestion is just get another editor not acquainted with the subject to give it a rundown. It's only some minor prose issues keeping it from being brilliant, IMO.
Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 18:19, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm going to try to fix some of these up real quick. For the worldly bit/comment, it's from this source. The world music would be accurate, I'd think, but I'm wondering if that would be OR to say if the source didn't? Dash there sorted by just eliminating it, and take a look at the "outrageous" passage now. I reworded it again. Going back for more... rootology (C)(T) 03:11, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- All thats really left is the passive voice concerns you had, and the question of OR in linking worldly to world music, from that cited quote. Let me know what you think. I got some of the frilly language you mentioned, but I can't see anymore. I'll try to clean up the passive voice tomorrow if I can, but that sort of fine tuning isn't my strong suit... rootology (C)(T) 05:01, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - What makes americanahomeplace.com a reliable source? Otherwise, the sourcing for the article looks okay. --Aude (talk) 05:13, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi Aude, that came up on the first FAC (but it's buried, so super easy to miss--I had to look again myself). So... "Its one of the larger radio shows for that niche genre of music (Bluegrass, and specifically the forms that this band plays, aren't big market--the fact this band got a Grammy and the press it is has is monstrous). It looks like a smaller site, but thats like comparing a smaller-town newspaper to CNN, if you're comparing this scale of the music industry to MTV News." Sorry for the copypasta from there. :) rootology (C)(T) 05:19, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - It makes sense that a radio show for this genre might not have as much high-traffic/audience. I'm satisfied that the sourcing is okay, with a variety of news media and other such sources. It's also good that you were able to find several good quality images for the article, with proper licensing. I also believe the article is well-written. Nice work with this article. --Aude (talk) 21:46, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Quark
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 19:41, 15 November 2008 [11].
Connie Talbot
Third time lucky. I have nominated this twice before, but both nominations have failed. I have worked with the suggestions from the past two nominations, and hope that the article is now ready for featured status. I have also kept the article updated. J Milburn (talk) 16:18, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: I feel that the prose still needs work, preferably a thorough review by an experienced copyeditor. Some examples:
- Despite being received negatively by critics... How about "Despite its negative critical reception..."?
- In October 2007, it was reported by the Express & Star that... This is still passive voice (presumably changed from the last FAC), even though we now have a subject. The subject should be the focus of the sentence: "In October 2007 the Express & Star reported that..."
- Talbot has said that the belief her grandmother was watching gave her confidence... Keep it simple: "Talbot drew confidence from the belief that her grandmother was watching..."
- These are a few random examples. I recommend having the entire article copyedited carefully by someone with a careful eye and significant distance from the evolution of the project. You can probably find someone to help on the peer review volunteers page. (I looked but didn't see evidence of such an outside-perspective copyedit prior to the FAC.) Good luck! Scartol • Tok 18:13, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose:Looks like it's almost there. The prose isn't professional though, which is a requirement of a FA. You might want to consider aiming for GA status first because it's more lenient with the prose. TKGD2007|TALK 20:10, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]- This oppose is rather vague. What about the prose, exactly, needs work? –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 20:13, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OpposeProse needs significant work, but featured standards are within reach. Comments through halfway of the Over the Rainbow section:- Talbot had been destined to sign with Sony BMG but the label pulled out of the deal due to her age. - "Had been" → "was".
- Songs from the album are to feature in an upcoming video game about Talbot. - "Are to featured" → "are to be featured".
- Despite its negative critical reception, the album has sold over 250,000 copies worldwide and reached number one in three countries. - Which album?
- On top of her musical career, Talbot continues to attend primary school, and lives in Streetly with her family. - "On top of" → "aside from".
- Although auditioning for the first series of television reality show Britain's Got Talent was originally a family day out, Talbot's confidence increased when Simon Cowell, whom she is said to have idolised,[2] described her as "pure magic" and said that he would make her earn "£1 million-plus this year". - What is a "family day out"?
- Despite her never taken singing lessons, and the judges expecting a "joke" performance, Talbot's initial performance received international press coverage. - "Despite her never taken singing lessons" makes me cringe, unfortunately. Change to "Although she never took singing lessons".
- She reached the final after winning her semi-final with a live performance of "Ben" by Michael Jackson. - Sounds like there's a word missing after "final". The final what?
- According to journalist and Britain's Got Talent judge Piers Morgan, it was thanks to Talbot that so many children, including Faryl Smith, auditioned for the second series of the show. - "It was thanks to" doesn't really sound encyclopedic.
- Series 2 winner George Sampson spoke after his victory of his participation in the first series - Change to "After his victory, Series 2 winner George Sampson spoke of his participation in the first series".
- Cowell had preliminarily agreed to sign Talbot with his own record label, Sony BMG. After recording two songs in London with Talbot ("Over the Rainbow" and "Smile"[2]), the company changed its mind. A company doesn't have a mind, nor does it change it.
- In October 2007 Talbot signed with the Rainbow Recording Company for a six-figure deal. - "Six-figure deal" is vague. Was it as low as $100,000, or closer to $999,999?
- A schedule was worked out so that Talbot could continue with her normal school activities while recording the album in her aunty Vicky's spare bedroom, which her mother described as "a better solution [than Sony BMG offered] which has not robbed her of her childhood". - Using "that" in this context is one of my pet peeves; more importantly, it's redundant.
- Although Arnison claimed he did not "want to put her through the promotional grind which most artists go through because she is too young", plans were laid out for appearances on daytime television programme This Morning and perhaps even The X Factor, as well as an appearance on Children in Need on 16 November 2007. - The plans were literally laid out on the ground?
- Try to avoid "the album...the album...the album" to begin sentences.
–Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:09, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - Talbot drew confidence belief her grandmother was watching? Kaldari (talk) 15:29, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Weak Support - For now. It's incredibly hard to fix the volume of prose needing a touch-up from the last FAC. I'll try to copy edit, but I doubt that this will pass at this time. —Ceran♦(Sing) (It's snowing in NJ already!) 22:52, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments by MacGyverMagic (I've run through the article and done a copyedit. If the following points are addressed adequately, I will support - please inform me on my talk page if you do):
- The lead says: "Despite its negative critical reception, Over the Rainbow has sold over 250,000 copies worldwide and reached number one in three countries." Neither the lead nor the section on the album mention those countries by name. - Mgm|(talk) 11:23, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- They're mentioned in the discography section. Should they be moved into the prose? I just felt that sort of specific information should be reserved for the album article. J Milburn (talk) 12:14, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes. Telling were the album reached number one gives an indication of how many people know her as well as how succesful the album was. Also, telling there are three countries will generate the question which in the reader and it is not immediately evident where to find it (I was expecting it to be in the section about the album) - Mgm|(talk) 12:36, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- They're mentioned in the discography section. Should they be moved into the prose? I just felt that sort of specific information should be reserved for the album article. J Milburn (talk) 12:14, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Arnison claimed he did not "want to put her through the promotional grind which most artists go through because she is too young", plans were made for appearances on daytime television programme This Morning and perhaps even The X Factor, as well as an appearance on Children in Need on 16 November 2007." The words perhaps even are speculative and the reference does not mention the X-factor. - Mgm|(talk) 11:31, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- She didn't appear on the X Factor, and I'm not aware of any plans for her to appear on this series. I'll just remove the mention. The source does mention it- the DM interviewer asks Talbot "Are you scared of the television appearances on This Morning with Fern and Phil, and possibly even X Factor which are coming up to promote your album?" J Milburn (talk) 12:14, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "It was later announced on Talbot's official website that the release date for the U.S. version would be 14 October, and that Talbot and her family would be travelling to the U.S. at the start of the month." This line should be updated. - Mgm|(talk) 11:35, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The lead says: "Despite its negative critical reception, Over the Rainbow has sold over 250,000 copies worldwide and reached number one in three countries." Neither the lead nor the section on the album mention those countries by name. - Mgm|(talk) 11:23, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. My concerns have been addressed. - Mgm|(talk) 16:32, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments: Despite the "free" images, I question if the article requires three photos showing the same subject. If they displayed her at significant stages of her life, it would be great. They are, however, of a child who has not changed much. Since for images, we are asking for the best representation of the subject or idea, what do Image:ConnieTalbot3.jpeg and Image:ConnieTalbot2.jpeg have that Image:ConnieTalbot1.jpeg cannot hope to serve as? Jappalang (talk) 05:38, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Image three (the one in colour) shows her recording with Sony BMG, while the others are with Rainbow, so does illustrate something a litte different. The one with the band in the background is obviously a good "this is what she looks like" photo, and I feel that the other is a good one to show the recording (well, it shows the recording equipment) and the way that she is portrayed by her management. As the images are free, I don't think there is any problem with using multiple images- they all display the text that they are next to, and liven up the article a little. As it happens, I am currently talking to Talbot's agent about getting some more images, specifically of her trip to Jamaica- something that is mentioned in the article but not illustrated. J Milburn (talk) 09:44, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I acknowledge their "freedom" (heh), but question their indiscriminate use. I fail to see the relevance of her recording or the recording equipment requiring a photo to add additional information (unless the article specifically states that her singing is enhanced or altered by those equipment). How are those photos supposed to show her portrayal by her management? If she was in costume, or in a publicity shot that is free and different from her everyday persona, that could be valid. As it is, the three photos show the same girl (I will even hazard that she is wearing the same dress in all three photos). I would think that "free" pictures are given a looser reign for use on Wikipedia but still need to be justified in their use. The infobox's picture is good enough to identify her. There is Commons to host a collection of free photos of Connie for others to peruse at their pleasure. Jappalang (talk) 11:29, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Image three (the one in colour) shows her recording with Sony BMG, while the others are with Rainbow, so does illustrate something a litte different. The one with the band in the background is obviously a good "this is what she looks like" photo, and I feel that the other is a good one to show the recording (well, it shows the recording equipment) and the way that she is portrayed by her management. As the images are free, I don't think there is any problem with using multiple images- they all display the text that they are next to, and liven up the article a little. As it happens, I am currently talking to Talbot's agent about getting some more images, specifically of her trip to Jamaica- something that is mentioned in the article but not illustrated. J Milburn (talk) 09:44, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, now that my concerns have been addressed via a copyedit. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 15:18, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Image review
Image:ConnieTalbot1.jpeg - Could we get a direct link to where on the website this image appears?Image:ConnieTalbot3.jpeg - Could we get a direct link to where on the website this image appears?Image:ConnieTalbot2.jpeg - Could we get a direct link to where on the website this image appears?
Hopefully this is easy to fix. Awadewit (talk) 19:11, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What's the point of a direct link? They were supplied via OTRS, so there are no sourcing issues, and the indirect link allows people to see the captions. I would provide a link if I was on my own laptop, but I'm not going to the site here- I'm on a college computer. They should be easy enough to find, they'll be somewhere in the pictures section of the official website. They're early photos, so they'll be on the oldest pages. J Milburn (talk) 10:16, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Note, there are three different date formats in the citations: unlinked ISO dates, linked dates and unlinked day month year dates. Please work to standardize these over time to one format. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:54, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 03:08, 29 September 2008 [12].
Space Invaders
- Nominator(s): Guyinblack25 talk
This is one of the VG Project's Top priority articles. Since this year is its 30th anniversary, I figured it deserved a proper article. I'd also like to give special mention to Marty Goldberg (the top contributor), who has helped keep the article on its path by providing some very helpful fact checking.
For those interested, the article has been peer reviewed, and recently passed GA. (Guyinblack25 talk 15:01, 23 September 2008 (UTC))[reply]
Comments - for now to get the show on the road. This article is generally well-written. During my first quick pass, I only found a few glitches. This is an important article and it would be nice to get it featured. The sources don't too bad, but I am no expert on video gaming culture. The second image (playfield.jpg) doesn't provide a source, we might need to fix this. I am very interested in what other reviewers have to say. Graham Colm Talk 18:05, 23 September 2008 (UTC) (I'm watching)[reply]
- Thank you for the copy edit sweep. I removed the hidden content as it was unsourced and unneeded—it was some of the original content before the quality push. I tried to avoid any source that would be questionable, but am more than willing to discuss the reliability of them. That image, Image:Inv_D_playfield.jpg, was taken two and a half years ago by a user that has not been active since. So I'm not sure how to list the source or than put the uploader's name. Is the source really necessary if it is a free-use image? (Guyinblack25 talk 18:38, 23 September 2008 (UTC))[reply]
- It probably won't be a problem, but let's see what, if anything, other reviewers have to say. Graham Colm Talk 19:20, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd be happy to put a fair-use rationale on that image, where the source information would just be "photo". The image is not free-use, however, since Taito still owns the rights to the game. Let me know if you want me to take care of that - I've noticed a lot of VG-related images that claim that the person uploading the image owns the rights to that image, and I don't think that's correct when the image is of a copyrighted work, regardless of the method by which the image was obtained. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 20:41, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- (Edit conflict) I went ahead and changed that image's licensing tag to fair-use screenshot and added a rationale. Go ahead and revert if you think this was incorrect at this time. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 22:04, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Looks alright to me, but I'm no image expert. (Guyinblack25 talk 00:53, 24 September 2008 (UTC))[reply]
- (Edit conflict) I went ahead and changed that image's licensing tag to fair-use screenshot and added a rationale. Go ahead and revert if you think this was incorrect at this time. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 22:04, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd be happy to put a fair-use rationale on that image, where the source information would just be "photo". The image is not free-use, however, since Taito still owns the rights to the game. Let me know if you want me to take care of that - I've noticed a lot of VG-related images that claim that the person uploading the image owns the rights to that image, and I don't think that's correct when the image is of a copyrighted work, regardless of the method by which the image was obtained. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 20:41, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It probably won't be a problem, but let's see what, if anything, other reviewers have to say. Graham Colm Talk 19:20, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support with one nitpick:
- Prose is smooth, but, lack of references surprises me. Wouldn't Space inavaders have more? —Sunday | Speak 22:02, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- There are more sources out there, but they are either print sources I don't have access to or unreliable internet sources. Given the article's importance, I figured I should error on the side of caution. (Guyinblack25 talk 00:53, 24 September 2008 (UTC))[reply]
- Print sources you don't have access to ? Such as ? Have you attempted to have someone provide them? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:19, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- There are some video game books that are on my list to pick up. I know that the game is mentioned in them, but I don't know to what extent. Marty was able to provide some content for one of them. (Guyinblack25 talk 02:08, 24 September 2008 (UTC))[reply]
- A Google Books search shows several books with online previews available, if this helps at all. Giggy (talk) 00:10, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What other things would you have liked to seen referenced? I have a large archive of books, magazines, etc. (because of the E2M), but there wasn't much that wasn't repetitive of what was already included in the references here. I'm not sure why you would think Space Invaders would have a lot more than what's been presented. More fluff references certainly. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 18:57, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- There are some video game books that are on my list to pick up. I know that the game is mentioned in them, but I don't know to what extent. Marty was able to provide some content for one of them. (Guyinblack25 talk 02:08, 24 September 2008 (UTC))[reply]
- Print sources you don't have access to ? Such as ? Have you attempted to have someone provide them? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:19, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- There are more sources out there, but they are either print sources I don't have access to or unreliable internet sources. Given the article's importance, I figured I should error on the side of caution. (Guyinblack25 talk 00:53, 24 September 2008 (UTC))[reply]
Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:44, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I'm not happy about the article saying "designed in 1978" without saying when it was first produced. It seems like it took him more than one year to come up with it anyway. Don't we know when it first came out in Japan and then the US? Juzhong (talk) 23:47, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've tweaked the lead to be more clear. Unfortunately the only release date I could find was June 1978, which I believe is the Japanese release date. (Guyinblack25 talk 00:03, 25 September 2008 (UTC))[reply]
Comments by Giggy
- I've nominated Image:Space invaders avignon.jpg for deletion as there's no freedom of panorama in France (details)... I wasn't 100% sure on this one, but just be aware.
- "and had earned Taito US$500 million in revenue by 2007" - um......
- "ranks it the top rated arcade game" - ranks and rated are kinda redundant and sound a bit awkward
- The infobox image would work better in the gameplay section (along with some detail in the caption... which is needed at the moment anyway per NFCC), if you can find another infobox image to replace it.
- "an adaptation of the mechanical game Space Monsters released by Taito in 1972", and later on "The game was originally titled Space Monsters" - was he originally going to give it the same name as another game, or is there some confusion here?
- "After the first few months following its release in Japan, the game became very popular" - pretty redundant to what was said two sentences ago (maybe merge)
- "Retro Gamer stated popular series like Final Fantasy, Gran Turismo, and Tomb Raider would not have been possible without Space Invaders" - How so?
- The second paragraph of the Impact and legacy section gets a bit annoying when it basically becomes of list of quotes about the game... I dunno, can you make the prose more... "appealing"... in any way?
- Uggh... a list of episodes that contain Space Invaders references is not something I'd like to see featured... :S
- MOS:ITALICS, check throughout
- "video game magazine Electronic Gaming Monthly" - I don't see where ref 8 ([13]) cites this (though I do see it here, so you may disregard if you wish)
Giggy (talk) 00:50, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Here are the issues I've addressed:
- Shame about the Invader image. Would a screen shot of a TV episode or close up of the EGM cover be alright? I'm fine with leaving that section without an image.
- Tweaked the $500 million statement.
- Tweaked the top rated statements
- The screen shot has a more detailed description on the image page. Would it be alright if I just keep it in the info box and direct readers to click on the image for more info? If need be I'll see if I can find a title screen image like in Donkey Kong (video game), or maybe a promotional flyer.
- The confusion has never been discussed in the interviews I've read. I assume that's why his boss renamed it to "Invaders"
- Retro Gamer did not state how so, they simply stated that. I assume as a statement to give the readers a since of impact the game had. But unfortunately I can't say for certain. It didn't really add anything to the article so I removed it.
- I understand the feeling about the episode references, but the game is heavily referenced in other mediums and I don't think that should be ignored. I trimmed the pop culture references down as much as I felt would portray the proper amount of weight in the article. Plus it's only five TV shows, I do not plan to include any more and will remove an excess ones that may get added.
- I did a sweep of the article and found one more magazine that needed italics. If you see any more, let me know.
- The Electronic Gaming Monthly part is listed as EGM under the third paragraph of number 7 on page 2.
- I'll try to massage the prose in the "Impact and legacy" section tomorrow. I'm open to some suggestions though. (Guyinblack25 talk 01:45, 25 September 2008 (UTC))[reply]
- First image: Yeah, probably... usual fair use rationale and descriptive caption stuff applies.
- Infobox image: A Donkey Kong style thing would be ideal. Directing them to the image page should be OK.
- Episodes: Some of the mentions (eg. Donna's Story) seem really trivial. Also My Bad Too is cited but I don't see any mention of the game on that article. Possibly trim out those two? (I see your point in general, though.)
- I'll try and do a bit of copyediting too. Giggy (talk) 01:58, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Reply:
- I'll try to address the images tomorrow.
- I believe the '70s Show episode has a side plot with Kelso and Fez and the arcade game. My memory is a bit fuzzy though. The Scrubs episode started with Turk and JD using the interns as human aliens and threw water balloons from the roof. See IGN article, they mention a reference.
- Honestly, I'm not attached to any of the first four episode references. I included those because they were high profile TV shows. Some have stronger references than others though. (Guyinblack25 talk 02:36, 25 September 2008 (UTC))[reply]
- Reply:
- Giggy- I've done some more editing to the article. I've expanded the caption, tweaked the popularity statement, and have found some alternative infobox images. See KLOV page for the title screen, next to "Scarcity in collections". To be honest, I feel it doesn't add much to the article, aside from displaying some game guide content. ArcadeFlyers.com has a page of SI flyers too. Do you have a preference? (Guyinblack25 talk 21:03, 25 September 2008 (UTC))[reply]
- Giggy, regarding the Space Monsters question, it was both. There have been many different publicly supported (by both Taito and Tomohiro) origin stories over the years. It was originally named space monsters and changed as reported, but the connection as to why it was named that has several different stories including a childrens song at the time and a connection to Taito's original 1972 electro-mechanical (called EM) coin-op of the same name. Mech design is what he was in from the late 60's on until they created their video games "division" in the early 70's. And then there's the several other stories (not related to the Space Monsters name) as to how Space Invaders came about. So (per the discussion on the SI talk page) we decided its better to present all the stories claimed and referenced rather than trying to pick one specific one. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 18:53, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support More comments - There are still a few tiny problems with logic and prose:
- This sentence from the Lead: Media entities have used the pixelated enemy alien as an icon for video games. What are media entities? The same vague expression is used in the body of the article.
- Here who handled the planning, graphic design, and programming - would "was responsible for" be better?
- This Nishikado's most recent descriptions state he was first inspired - how about "Nishikado recently said" ?
- This sentence needs a little attention- During the 1970s, microcomputers in Japan were not powerful enough to create Space Invaders, and Nishikado had to create hardware and development tools for the game. I think the first "create" could be a simple "run" and I'm not sure what is meant by "development tools".
- This sentence; The Observer commented that the popularity of the home console versions led to a large number of home programmers who later became industry leaders.- is illogical, I think it means "According to The Observer, the home console versions were popular and encouraged users to learn programming; many of these programmers later became industry leaders".
- This is bad Space Invaders was the first video game to include some kind of intermission between gameplay - I would replace "some kind of" with a simple "an".
- There is repetition here: Space Invaders has inspired the development of several games, and led to multiple sequels and rereleases. In the next section we have Space Invaders has been rereleased on numerous platforms, and spawned multiple sequels
- Here I suggest you delete the "various": The game and its related games have been included in various video game compilation titles
Lastly how about changing "multiple" to "many"? There are at least two occurrences. Graham Colm Talk 14:37, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've addressed the first four bullets in your list above. Comments? (I'll do more of them later. :)) — KieferSkunk (talk) — 17:24, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- All your comments have been addressed. However, I think "Nishikado's most recent descriptions" should remain since a year from now, he would not have "recently said". The article is already more than half a year old. (Guyinblack25 talk 18:04, 27 September 2008 (UTC))[reply]
- It still sounds non-idiomatic, but it's not a big problem. Graham Colm Talk 18:28, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- All your comments have been addressed. However, I think "Nishikado's most recent descriptions" should remain since a year from now, he would not have "recently said". The article is already more than half a year old. (Guyinblack25 talk 18:04, 27 September 2008 (UTC))[reply]
- I've addressed the first four bullets in your list above. Comments? (I'll do more of them later. :)) — KieferSkunk (talk) — 17:24, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support I have been watching this article evolve since its GAN days. Worthy of FA status, in my opinion. A clearly written, well organized, and interesting article. (I have done some minor copy editing to fix my nitpicks.) —Mattisse (Talk) 20:24, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Seems like a very good article to me, describes the game itself, its history, and reception/legacy thoroughly. I wasn't left hungry for more info. Tezkag72 (talk) 02:53, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 00:58, 7 October 2008 [14].
Philitas of Cos
A Good Article that has since gone through peer review, with one helpful review by Yannismarou and another by Wronkiew (thanks to you both!). It's ready for a shot at Featured Article status. Eubulides (talk) 05:35, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Dr pda:
Nice article. The prose is good, everything is cited, all the sources are reputable academic journals or scholarly publications, the lead is an appropriate length for the article, images alternate left and right without squeezing the text, and are not left aligned under level 3 headings, dashes are used correctly, as are
s before units, there is no mixing of citation templates and all external links check out with the link checker. However I have some queries about the images.
- Image:Antikythera philosopher.JPG—The image description page says the photograph was taken by B. Foley in 2004, however it was uploaded by Ishkabibble (talk · contribs) in 2007 under the GFDL, and the wording of the licence tag claims that s/he is the copyright holder. How do we know the photo is in fact GFDL-licenced?
- Image:Ptolemaic-Empire-300BC.jpeg—The file history indicates that the background image is derived from satellite data, but the image description doesn't indicate that where the satellite data comes from, or its copyright status. (I'm guessing its NASA and therefore public domain as a work or the US federal government, but this should be checked and/or explicitly stated.)
- Image:POxy.XX.2260.i-Philitas-highlight.jpeg—The image description says "no known restrictions on publication", however the copyright page on the website listed as the source says Unless otherwise stated, all digital images of the Oxyrhynchus Papyri are © the Imaging Papyri Project, University of Oxford. The papyri themselves are owned by the Egypt Exploration Society, London. Images of them may be used for teaching and research purposes, but should not be published without the prior consent of the Imaging Papyri Project and the Egypt Exploration Society. Other digital images are © the Imaging Papyri Project, University of Oxford. If you are aware of any inadvertent misattribution or copyright infringement on our part, please tell us without delay. In addition the image is tagged with {{PD-old}}; while the text is certainly public domain, the image was taken within the last 60 years at least (going by the date of first publication) and is not PD, as the copyright statement from the website shows. You probably need to get the opinion of someone more knowledgeable about images than me as to whether we can use this image.
A couple more comments: Why is the character ϲ used for the letter sigma in the epitaph, but σ for the verses quoted, and the name of his vocabulary? Also WP:ACCESSIBILITY recommends providing a transliteration of any text written in non-Latin characters. I'm not sure how to handle this for the Greek you quote in <poem> tags (which incidentally were a new tag to me :) ); it would look ugly given that you provide the translation immediately afterwards. On the topic of WP:ACCESSIBILITY it also says that that horizontal rules, such as the one before the 1911 Britannica notice, are deprecated. Regarding the first sentence of the article, the claim "was the most important intellectual in the early years of Hellenistic civilization" definitely requires a source. Is it covered by the reference at the end of the next sentence? Also, while I understand that the lead need not be cited since everything it contains is in the article, as it stands the last sentence of the first paragraph appears to be the only part of the lead which isn't cited. For consistency it would be nice to have a cite there too.
The readable prose size of the article is around 7.5 kB, putting it in the shortest 1% of current FAs. I'm not familiar enough with the subject matter to say whether the article is comprehensive or not. If it is, I wouldn't object on length alone. On the topic of disclaimers I also haven't checked that all the doi's, ISBNs, OCLC identifiers etc point to the works they say they do.
I've added persondata, and I noticed that some ISBNs were hyphenated and others weren't so I hyphenated them all, for consistency. Dr pda (talk) 11:59, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the comments. Some time I'll have to learn how to hyphenate ISBNs. On to the questions:
- Ishkabibble (talk · contribs) uploaded both Image:Antikythera_philosopher.JPG and Image:Antikythera statue front.jpg on the same day (2007-08-05); both image pages say the image pages were taken in September 2004 by Brendan Foley, with the same camera. I see no reason to think that Brendan Foley (whoever he is; there are many Brendan Foleys) is not the user in question. Is that enough, or do further steps need to be taken here?
- I changed the text in Image:Ptolemaic-Empire-300BC.jpeg to make it clear that it's derived from a NASA image.
- I changed the notice in Image:POxy.XX.2260.i-Philitas-highlight.jpeg from {{PD-old}} to {{PD-art}}, which is more appropriate since this is a faithful photographic reproduction of an original two-dimensional work. PD-art means we need not ask permission to reproduce that image. Of course it wouldn't hurt to ask. Is that enough, or are further steps needed?
- That "ϲ" is a lunate sigma, not the Latin letter "c"; they are quite different letters, though they look similar. I added a footnote about that. Some sources use lunate sigma, some the modern sigma, and I thought it best to follow the source actually used here, as it's the most authoritative I found. For what it's worth, Philitas himself probably preferred lunate sigma.
- And Philitas certainly preferred majuscule to minuscule, which did not exist in his time; why are we not using that, on the same "logic"? We are here to communicate, not to introduce pedantic obstacles to communication. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:57, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I did say "for what it's worth" :-). But the main principle here is that quotations in Wikipedia must "preserve the original style, spelling and punctuation" (MOS:QUOTE), which is what's being done here. The cited source uses lunate sigma, so we should too. Eubulides (talk) 17:03, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I see you fixed the horizontal line; thanks.
- I added transliterations of the four lines of Greek poetry into Latin text.
- The lead text "most important intellectual in the early years of Hellenistic civilization" was supported by Bulloch 1985, the source cited at the end of the next sentence. Bulloch has a section "Philetas and others" that leads with "The most important intellectual figure in the early years of the new Hellenistic world was Philetas from the east Greek island of Cos." I made this edit to try to make it clearer that all the claims in the lead are well-sourced.
- As far as I know, the article is comprehensive on Philitas' life. We know so little about him that it's no problem for Philitas of Cos to contain everything we know of his life (there is no "summary style" here: this is everything). A bit more can be said about his works (as we do have about 50 lines, and only 2 are given here) and later opinion of him, so I added some; hope this helps.
- Eubulides (talk) 21:59, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Regarding Image:Antikythera_philosopher.JPG, google reveals a Brendan Foley who is a researcher in maritime archaeology at MIT. User Ishkabibble's contributions match this and some of Foley's other research interests. This, plus the fact that the image has metadata showing it to come from a digital camera inclines me to believe that Foley is the uploader. (Though it would have been nice if there were an explicit statement...).
- Regarding Image:POxy.XX.2260.i-Philitas-highlight.jpeg {{PD-Art}} will probably work. I notice that policy is that this assertion (faithful reproduction of 2D image) is good for all copyright jurisdictions, which avoids any UK-specific issues. However the "When to use PD-Art" page says it can't be used for anything which "casts a shadow"; not wanting to be super-picky here but I think I can see a shadow! I'd feel more comfortable if someone more experienced in images (e.g. User:Elcobbola or User:Awadewit) could cast an eye over this one.
- Regarding the sigma, perhaps my question wasn't as clear as it could have been. I recognised it as a lunate sigma, I was just wondering why you used that form in one piece of Greek text, and the σ/ς forms in other pieces. However your reply above answered this anyway.
- Regarding hyphenating ISBNs, just google for isbn converter; these convert from ISBN-10 to ISBN-13, and some of them put in the hyphens at the same time.
- So, assuming the Oxyrhynchus image turns out to be OK, Issues resolved. Support. Dr pda (talk) 12:17, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, I asked about the Oxyrhynchus image at User talk:Elcobbola #Copyright status of photo of ancient papyrus fragment. If the shadows are a real copyright issue I can remove them with the GIMP, but I'd rather not bother if we don't have to do that. Eubulides (talk) 17:42, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I answered on the talk page to keep the FAC clear of the "detailed" copyright stuff (i.e. so the FAC can stay focused on evaluation against the FA criteria). Эlcobbola talk 15:48, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, I asked about the Oxyrhynchus image at User talk:Elcobbola #Copyright status of photo of ancient papyrus fragment. If the shadows are a real copyright issue I can remove them with the GIMP, but I'd rather not bother if we don't have to do that. Eubulides (talk) 17:42, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - sources look good, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:34, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support for now. Interesting and polished prose, but it seems kind of non-broad in its coverage. Just my first impression from the article. :) —Sunday | Speak 20:58, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the comment. As described above I added added a bit more detail about his work. More context could be added, though it'd be hard to add much more specifically about Philitas, as so little is known of his life. As someone new to the topic can you suggest areas where further elaboration would be most helpful? Eubulides (talk) 21:59, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments regarding (the other) images:
- Image:Antikythera philosopher.JPG: although it's not optimal to have an author and user name mismatch, the typical copyvio red flags are not here (e.g. the image is higher resolution, the image has metadata, the Nikon E5400 is a consumer camera and was indeed available in 2004, image does not appear professionally done and subject's setting reasonably implies accessibility to the public). I don't hear any quacking.
- Image:Ptolemaic-Empire-300BC.jpeg: needs a verifiable source per WP:IUP; how can we confirm NASA authorship? Эlcobbola talk 16:10, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for checking that. I added a verifiable source to Image:Ptolemaic-Empire-300BC.jpeg and also added in a copy of the NASA terms. The source was the same as for Image:Whole world - land and oceans 12000.jpg. Eubulides (talk) 17:51, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Not in its present condition.
- It begins with an egregious WP:PEACOCK violation; an evaluation as the "most important intellectual of" [vaguely defined period]. That is not a consensus view; more importantly, does it contain any content which "royal tutor" (a badly chosen word; some readers will read in tutor/paedagogus, which would be false), scholar, and poet, do not say between them.
- The first scholar-poet. I see what is meant here; but the implication that Pindar (or Empedocles) was no scholar is bizarre. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:11, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- the heir of the royal throne of Ptolemaic Egypt. is not idiomatic.
- The "transliterations" do not transliterate. There may be other ways to represenr και than kai, but cae is not one of them. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:20, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I changed "cae" to "cai"; thanks for catching that.
- Why not kai? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:27, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Philitas of Cos uses the classical-style transliteration of Greek to Roman characters, as described in Romanization of Greek. This transliterates "κ" to "c" ("Cos" being one example of this). Sarton's Hellenistic Science and Culture in the Last Three Centuries (ISBN 0486277402), which uses classical-style transliteration, uses "cai" on page 304; I assume that is good-enough precedent. Eubulides (talk) 06:35, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That method is appropriate only for turning Greek into English (or other Western} text, not for transliterations, which should, to be of any value, represent Greek text exactly and consistently.
- But in fact no consistent method is being used; no acceptable method would come up with esperioi, omitting the aspiration but being pedantic on the final diphthong. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:42, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Please feel free to alter the transliterations of the Greek poetry to use any consistent style you prefer. I don't care what the style is. Personally, I would omit the transliterations entirely, as I think they're distracting to almost all readers; they are there only because of WP:ACCESSIBILITY.
- Thanks for pointing out the problem with "esperioi"; I changed it to "hesperie".
- Eubulides (talk) 17:03, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I changed "tutor to the heir of the royal throne" to "tutor of the heir to the royal throne". Thanks for catching that as well.
- The cited source (written by A.W. Bulloch) wrote "intellectual figure", not "intellectual", so I changed the wording to say "the most important intellectual figure in the early years of Hellenistic civilization" which I hope is enough to remove the peacock tag. Bulloch is a classics professor at Berkeley and this source (the Cambridge History of Classical Literature) is a mainstream source; if this is not the consensus, can you please give an example of a contrary opinion among mainstream sources?
- The phrase "royal tutor" does not appear in Philitas of Cos. Philitas #Life does say that he was appointed "preceptor, or tutor". Does this not supply enough detail so that the expert reader will know we're talking about a preceptor rather than a paedagogus? Non-expert readers won't know either term, and "tutor" is the commonly used word for preceptor. Or are you suggesting that the article also mention "preceptor" in the lead, alongside "tutor"? That would be fine.
- The phrase "the first scholar-poet" does not appear in Philitas of Cos. It says he was "the first major writer who was both a scholar and a poet". Again, this is directly supported by the cited source, Bulloch, who writes "Philetas was the first major writer who was both poet and scholar, and secured an instant reputation in both fields." There is no intent to imply that Pindar or Empedocles were not scholars, but I don't see how the fact that they were scholars affects this issue. As far as I know, no major poet before Philitas was as famous for scholarly publications. Anyway, we do have a reliable source making the claim; is there some controversy among similarly reliable sources on this point?
- I changed "cae" to "cai"; thanks for catching that.
- Thanks for your review; hope this helps to answer the major points. Eubulides (talk) 20:08, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You are misreading Bulloch, through not giving weight to and secured an instant reputation in both fields. Our article makes the assertion that no person combined the characteristics:
- Poet
- Scholar
- Major writer
- Before Philitas.
- Pindar lacked none of these; what we say is therefore false. (The sentence from Bulloch is ill-advised, but defensible; Pindar did not obtain an instant reputation as a scholar, although how Bulloch knows Philitas did is beyond me.) Our text is therefore unsupported.
- But this is not only dubiously factual: it is unencyclopedic to make any case of this kind. Bulloch is free to be a fanboy if he likes, although it would be traditional to edit the fragments first, which he does not seem to have done. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:04, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Philitas of Cos does not misread Bulloch. Bulloch clearly states "Philetas was the first major writer who was both poet and scholar,". The next clause in Bulloch's sentence "and secured an instant reputation in both fields" amplifies this claim; it does not restrict it.
- Nor is Bulloch the only expert in the field who makes such a claim. For example, Peter Bing, professor of classics at Emory, writes 'The author of this last poem is none other than Philitas of Cos (10, p.92 Powell), whom Ptolemy I Soter made tutor to his son, the future king Ptolemy II Philadelphus, and who stands upon the threshold of the Age as a model for the new figure of the doctus poeta (the learnéd poet). Philitas is the first person described as "simultaneously a poet and a scholar" (Strabo XIV 657).'[15]
- Other sources along similar lines could be suppled.
- Bulloch is not a "fanboy" of Philitas. He is stating the mainstream opinion in a conservatively-edited reference book on the subject of Greek literature.
- Pindar is not an example of a doctus poeta. His poetry was second to none, but Pindar was not famous for his scholarship, and is not commonly cited as a scholar-poet among reliable sources.
- It sounds like you disagree with mainstream opinion, which of course is your privilege, but Wikipedia is supposed to reflect mainstream opinion, and claims in Wikipedia require support from reliable sources. So far, I see unanimity among reliable sources that Philitas is the first example of a scholar-poet.
- Eubulides (talk) 20:13, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Bosh. Since in addition to the above, the current edition of Pauly-Wissowa presents a different view of Philitas's life, laying much more stress on his life at Cos after his experience at court (when he taught Hermesianax), I cannot think this ready for prime time.
- Pauly also makes clear that "first poet and philologist" (kritikos) is a quote from Strabo (14.2) ; it should be presented as such, and that wording would be much less subject to doubt. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:27, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It makes sense to mention Strabo; I made this change to add a citation to his comment on Philitas. Of course the claim that Philitas was the first major scholar-poet does not rely entirely or even primarily on Strabo. It comes from a more modern consensus. Here's another example:
- "Thus was formed that curious mixture the 'doctus poeta,' the learned poet.... There are four poets in this period, who are important not only in themselves, but for their influence on Rome.... Philetas of Cos (circa B.C. 340–circa 285), the teacher of Theocritus, heads the list, with his elegies on Bittis." Jesse Benedict Carter, Selections from the Roman Elegiac Poets (1900), OCLC 7425136, p. xi.
- Other examples could be cited. I haven't found any reliable sources disagreeing on this point.
- We should certainly not use doctus poeta; we should not use Latin without necessity; nor is it reasonable to use it for a Greek writer. We are optimized for lay readers, not for specialists. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:53, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree that there's no reason to use doctus poeta here, and Philitas of Cos currently doesn't use it. My point was that there's consensus among modern sources that Philitas was the first major scholar-poet. Eubulides (talk) 17:03, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for mentioning Pauly-Wissowa, certainly a reliable source. It'd be helpful to use what it says. I don't happen to have a copy ready to hand, unfortunately, but I can go to a library and get one. Are you referring to the German edition or the English one? Do you have page numbers, or is this an online cite?
- Both; Brill's New Pauly is a translation of Die Neue Pauly; in both, this is the article "Philitas". Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:53, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- According to Pauly-Wissowa, which events does Philitas of Cos omit, for Philitas' life at Cos after Alexandria?
- Currently, Philitas of Cos #Life gives equal weight to Philitas' life at Alexandria, and to his life at Cos after Alexandria. How does this compare to Pauly-Wissowa's treatment?
- As I understand it from your comment, Pauly-Wissowa does not contradict anything currently in Philitas of Cos; in particular, Pauly-Wissowa is not skeptical of the claims that Philitas was the first major scholar-poet and that Philitas was the most important intellectual figure in the early years of the Hellenistic world.
- Double bosh. Failing to assert such a claim is to contradict it by silence. Every Greek writer, especially those mostly lost, has some authority who ranks him high, even Nonnus. The position that we must find express contradiction is to make our articles a swamp of salesmanship; we need not say any such thing. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:53, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I am unaware of any claim by any authority that any other person would qualify as "the most important intellectual figure in the early years of Hellenistic civilization". I'm quite skeptical that any authority would make a claim like that. I am not asking for someone who explicitly disputes Bulloch's claim for Philitas; I'm merely asking for someone who has made a similar claim for some other major figure.
- I think it quite implausible that someone would make that claim for Theophrastus, Demetrius of Phalerum or Megasthenes, who you've suggested as alternatives: Theophrastus is more of a holdover from the previous era, Demetrius is clearly below Philitas in his influence on Hellenistic (as opposed to transitional) civilization, and Megathenes is not even within shouting distance of these other guys. That being said, it doesn't matter what I think: it matters what reliable sources say.
- With Bulloch, we're not talking about some recent or obscure paper by a minor scholar: we're talking about a longstanding assertion in a standard reference work. Obviously you personally disagree with this assertion, but we can't base our edits on our own opinions: we need the opinions of reliable sources.
- Eubulides (talk) 17:03, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This is scarcely less unreasonable; most writers would not assume that was a single "most important figure" of early Hellenisticism, unless perhaps they extended the period far enough to include Callimachus or Eratosthenes. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:08, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- A nit: the claim is not "most important figure", it's "most important intellectual figure".
- Bulloch's claim is about the first few years of the Hellenistic world: that period does not extend to Eratosthenes (who was born a decade after Philitas died) or even to Callimachus (a generation or two after Philitas).
- With that in mind, would the following change satisfy your concerns (italics are new text)?: "most important intellectual figure in the
earlyfirst few years of Hellenistic civilization"- The narrower the claim the better. It should be clear to the reader (as it was not to me) that Hellenistic excludes Greece proper. But I'll give it a fresh read; I hope FAC can wait till Monday. (Aristotle is not chiefly famous for his tutoring, so the analogy below limps on both feet, but I'll try to clear my mind.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:02, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Within that fairly narrow period, Philitas stands head and shoulders above everyone else. He served as Aristotle to Ptolemy II Philadelphus' Alexander; admittedly this is not at all as big a deal as Aristotle and Alexander, but it's the closest thing the Hellenistic world has to offer. A major statue was erected of him (or perhaps two statues; it's not clear). He founded the Alexandrian school of poetry, and was the first major example of the scholar-poet. Propertius, a major poet, invoked him centuries after he died. Nobody else in the first few years of the Hellenistic world comes close to this kind of intellectual influence. Again, this is just my opinion, and what matters is what reliable sources say: but again, we don't see anything even hinting at a dispute about this among reliable sources.
- Eubulides (talk) 20:02, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Eubulides (talk) 06:35, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(outdent) By the way, I want to thank you again for mentioning the new Pauly; I wasn't aware that the English "Phi" volume came out last year (which I guess shows how out-of-touch I am...). It has some other material about Philitas' works which I would like to work into the article, but I haven't had the time yet. Eubulides (talk) 17:03, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Then come back when the article is more complete. I'll help, and phrase the whole more to my liking, when I'm done recasting Iole. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:09, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll let you know when I've done that. Including the new material shouldn't take more than a day or two. The new stuff should be localized to Philitas #Works, so it should be independent of the previous discussions. Eubulides (talk) 20:02, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, it's done, with these edits. It took longer than expected, as other comments came in during the meantime. Eubulides (talk) 22:25, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No follow up three days after request: [16] [17] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:01, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I am very supportive of this nomination and think it's well written. We are lucky to have Eubulides's expertise in the field. At the same time, I must say that Anderson's deep knowledge and content-based analyses are admirable. My hope is that you two can work it out, and that we get a superb addition to our FAs in this area. Tony (talk) 10:35, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I won't even try to insert myself into the conversation between Eubulides and PMAnderson. I may find some tidbits that I think are interesting though, and could well be added.. as for example "this which says "According to Hermesianax in his catalogue of poetic lovers, the citizens of Cos erected 'under a plane tree' a statue of Philitas singing of his Battis [or Bittis] (fr. 7.75-8 Powell) and... this creates a presumption that Philitas wrote first-person poetry on erotic subjects...". Ling.Nut (talk—WP:3IAR) 12:45, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The full poem by Posidoppus is on page 31 ofThe New Posidippus: A Hellenistic Poetry Book by Posidippus, Kathryn J. Gutzwiller. Ling.Nut (talk—WP:3IAR) 12:58, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the pointer. Is this a suggestion to use Nisetich's translation rather than Bing's? Could you please elaborate? Eubulides (talk) 17:43, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I added a citation to Nisetich's translation. The text still uses Bing's, but it's nice to cite Nisetich too. Eubulides (talk) 22:25, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. :)
However, I never let people get of that easy so... 1. You should probably say he is a poet and a scholar within the first line, because the "intellectual" comment would make me think philosopher (assuming I didn't know him). 2. Lempriere classifies him as a grammarian. 3. According to Lempriere (a great old source, btw, might be online, as Jayvdb), the lead comment is attributed to Ælian (V. H. 9, c, 14) 4. "This article incorporates text from the Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition, a publication now in the public domain." I'd track down any text and rewrite it so you can remove that. Britannica is the true Wiki Devil.Ottava Rima (talk) 13:24, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Scholar, philologist, and grammarian all represent the same Greek word; of the three, I think I would use philologist. Philitas lies between Apollodorus of Athens and Dionysius Thrax. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:54, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, Ottava Rima, for the comments. First, the issue about "grammarian":
- I expect that the "grammarian" comes from a translation of the Greek word to French, and thence to English. For example, we have Victor Hugo writing in Chapter 4 of Les Miserables (after being translated into English) "The most prominent man in Greece for fifty years was that grammarian Philetas, who was so small and so thin that he was obliged to load his shoes with lead in order not to be blown away by the wind." However, we should prefer translations directly into English, as opposed to going through a French middleman.
- In English scholarship of Philitas, the word is normallly translated as "scholar" or "critic" in this context. For example: "As far as we know, the first to whom the designation ποιητὴς ἅμα καὶ κριτικός 'poet as well as scholar' was applied was Philitas from the island of Cos in the last third of the fourth century and probably in the first two decades of the third." R. Pfeiffer (1955). "The future of studies in the field of Hellenistic poetry". The Journal of Hellenic Studies. 75: 69–73. Bing (cited in Philitas) translates the same phrase as "simultaneously a poet and a critic", but I think "critic" is in the minority here.
- I plan to get to Ottava Rima's other comments soon. Eubulides (talk) 19:40, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Not to trouble you too much (as I like the page). John Lemprière is the Lempriere that I mentioned. I meant to say "ask" Jayvdb about it if it is not on Wikisource already. He knows how to track down online editions. The work is a 200 year old dictionary, and I use it a lot because it was a very famous and very popular dictionary of classical names (i.e. appearances of names within all surviving Greek and Latin works at the time). I'm not sure what Lempriere calls him a grammarian, thats just him. :) I can scan the page if you would like to see. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:29, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. I found an 1825 English edition (improved by Anthon) on Google Books, and it didn't say anything we don't already have. I expect that the 2007 New Pauly entry, which Pmanderson pointed us at, dominates even a more-recent Lemprière edition. Eubulides (talk) 22:25, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Not to trouble you too much (as I like the page). John Lemprière is the Lempriere that I mentioned. I meant to say "ask" Jayvdb about it if it is not on Wikisource already. He knows how to track down online editions. The work is a 200 year old dictionary, and I use it a lot because it was a very famous and very popular dictionary of classical names (i.e. appearances of names within all surviving Greek and Latin works at the time). I'm not sure what Lempriere calls him a grammarian, thats just him. :) I can scan the page if you would like to see. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:29, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I reworded the lead to mention "scholar and poet" first thing.
- I made these changes to remove the last traces of the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica.
- I searched Google Scholar for "grammarian Philitas" and came up empty. I found one 1953 mention of "grammarian Philetas" (in Morris & Macgillivray 1953, PMID 13070000), but this is in a psychiatry research article and isn't authoritative for Philitas. It seems pretty clear that Philitas is not commonly called a "grammarian" in English now, though he was called a grammarian during the Victorian era. I guess terminology has changed?
- Thanks, Ottava Rima, for the comments. First, the issue about "grammarian":
- Thanks again, Ottava Rima, for your helpful comments; hope this covers them. Eubulides (talk) 22:25, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by karanacs.
- This is not really encyclopedic: "Here are two of the fifty verses of Philitas that survive"
- "Philitas was the first writer whose works represent the combination of qualities now regarded as Hellenistic" - it might be wise to expand on what those qualities are for those of us who are unfamiliar with Hellenistic poetry.
Karanacs (talk) 21:35, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for your comments; hope the changes have helped. Eubulides (talk) 22:25, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments I'll give a full review later, but from what I can see at first glance, a copyedit of the comma usage is needed in my opinion. An example from the lead: He was caricatured as a frail old academic so consumed by his studies that he forgot to eat and drink. A comma is needed after "academic". Juliancolton (talk) 21:25, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, I fixed that one, along with some similar problems. Another pair of eyes would be helpful. Eubulides (talk) 23:49, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Looks good. I did a bit of copyediting myself, so you might want to look over my changes to make sure I didn't mess up anything. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 00:24, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Question The statement in the opening para Philitas was later caricatured as a frail old academic, so consumed by his studies that he forgot to eat and drink.[4] is a fragment and out of context, not attributed to any person or period and seems so mean spirited it has to origonate from a politically motivated source. Can ye either contextualise or remove. Ceoil sláinte 02:16, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That caricature was about 500 years later, so I doubt whether it was political. It was a "thin-joke" (nowadays we prefer "fat-jokes" since obesity is now more of a health threat than wasting disease). Anyway, I made this change to attribute it to Athenaeus in the text. Eubulides (talk) 06:10, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 01:20, 30 September 2008 [18].
History of the National Hockey League (1942–1967)
This is the second of a series, the first article, covering 1917 to 1942 already being featured. I believe this article is up to the same standards. It is currently a good article, and has been through a peer review that did not yield much, unfortunately. Maxim was kind enough to perform a copyedit. I look forward to all comments. Thanks! Resolute 04:30, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Restart, old nom. Sources checked, images unclear. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:32, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- err? Resolute 02:03, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think SandyGeorgia is "bumping" this discussion up (hence restart), because no one has commented since you posted this FAC over three weeks ago. SandyGeorgia then comments (I think) that the sources have been checked, but the images are unclear. I would guess the particular images are the Syl Apps image and the Clarence Campbell thumb (specifically the thumb, as the full image is pretty clean). — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 02:49, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Sandy means that she wants the pictures checked to make sure they comply with our image standards. This is done by one of our image reviewers; unfortunately for you, I'm not one of them. Giants2008 (17-14) 03:18, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think SandyGeorgia is "bumping" this discussion up (hence restart), because no one has commented since you posted this FAC over three weeks ago. SandyGeorgia then comments (I think) that the sources have been checked, but the images are unclear. I would guess the particular images are the Syl Apps image and the Clarence Campbell thumb (specifically the thumb, as the full image is pretty clean). — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 02:49, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- err? Resolute 02:03, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Restart, old nom. Sources checked, images unclear. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:32, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)
"It was a period of dynasties, with the Maple Leafs winning the Stanley Cup nine times between 1942 and 1967." That dreaded with + -ing sentence structure.
- Fixed.
- Fixed another ambiguity. Ottre 14:36, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
"Attempting to open up the game, the league introduced the centre-ice red line, allowing players to pass out of their defensive zone for the first time in 1943." Move "in 1943" to right after "centre-ice red line" for clarity.
- Fixed
- Shouldn't that be "In its attempts"? Ottre 14:45, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
- Also, "The NHL continued to develop during this period." should read "The NHL continued to develop throughout the era." Ottre 14:52, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
"There was also change at the top after league President Frank Calder collapsed during a meeting and later died, in February 1943." -->"There was also change at the top; in February 1943, league President Frank Calder collapsed during a meeting and later died."
- Fixed.
"The stability Campbell offered as president was matched by that of the league itself." Vague.
- removed, another editor expressed a POV concern, so I've changed it.
"No team outside of the NHL had competed for the Stanley Cup since 1926 following the demise of the Western Hockey League."
- I've reworded the passage entirely.
"Other teams and leagues had challenged for the cup in the intervening years, with the challenges rejected by Cup trustees for various reasons." Such as?- An example is stated.
"It was Richard who captured all the headlines, however, as he attempted to score 50 goals in a 50 game season, a feat no other player had accomplished in league history." Can we change "It was Richard who captured all the headlines" to something more encyclopedic, please?
- Ohhh... I suppose. ;o) reworded.
"His opponents did anything they could to prevent him from reaching the 50-goal mark, including slashing, elbowing and holding Richard, as no team wanted to be known as the one that gave up the goal."—all they could.
- fixed
I'll have more comments later. Dabomb87 (talk) 03:06, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Your current concerns should be addressed, and I look forward to any further suggestions you have. Thanks, Resolute 16:31, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"The 1951 Stanley Cup Finals saw the Maple Leafs defeat the Canadiens four games to one in the only final in NHL history where all games were decided in overtime." How about: "In the 1951 Stanley Cup Finals, the Maple Leafs defeated the Canadiens four games to one in the only final in NHL history when all games were decided in overtime."
- I like. Changed.
- Are all currency figures in Canadian dollars?
- Honestly, there is no way I can say for certain. Nearly all of the dollar figures cited in the sources do not specify.
"The first players' union was formed February 12, 1957, by Red Wings star Ted Lindsay." According to whom is he a star?
- reworded.
Check for overlinking of individual seasons; the one that caught my attention was 1964–65.
- Delinked the second instance of 64-65. I looked over the article and did not find any other duplicative links for either seasons or playoff years.
"Similarly, teams began to paint the centre red line in a checkered pattern to set it apart from the solid blue lines." "Similarly" is vague, try "For this same reason".
- done.
Dabomb87 (talk) 00:30, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Um, well the nominator was working on my comments, but okay. I'll get to those later. Images: Images check out
Image:GordieHowe 08.jpg - call me a skeptic, but I'm concerned that this image from 1960's is in fact self-made by the author.Image:Plante firstmask.jpg - the fair use rationales need to be copyedited and expanded; just saying 'it's not replaceable' doesn't cut it.
--Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 03:23, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- On the Plante mask image, I was thinking that might have been one thing Sandy was getting at. The rationale should be updated when you next check it. As far as the Howe image goes, The User:Arnielee uploaded it, and many other images from those time frames. It appears that Mr. Lee is indeed a photographer with other photos from that time, and other images from that time by Arnie Lee are licenced as GFDL on britannica.com. Resolute 16:31, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, that satisfies me for the author. How about adding in the author's web page and the info you brought up above and add it to the image? As for the nonfree image, I'd still like to see the rationales expanded. This is for a film cover, so obviously the text and rationale are going to be different, but it serves as a good model: Image:Wrath-of-khan-bob-peak-post.png. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 16:40, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, when I said they'd be updated by the time you next checked, I wasn't anticipating you'd be replying nine minutes later... heh. I've taken a stab at expanding the rationale where I can. Resolute 17:04, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've just gone ahead and edited the image page, so you can see what I am talking about. I would like the author of the image and the date taken/published, to add to the 'other information' section of {{Non-free image data}} - see the example image page above. I've split the fair use rationales from the description page to avoid redundancy, but I didn't fill out the FUR for the other instance of this article- you need to add that in, I don't know jack about hockey. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 02:42, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for that. I'll try to track down the author, though that may be challenging. As to your originial comments on the first attempt at this FAC, I have gone through and removed several useless commas. Resolute 19:39, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Is David satisfied on the images yet? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:40, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Image:Plante firstmask.jpg still needs a FUR, and Resolute hasnt gotten back to me about the author. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 02:22, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No, that image has a FUR, for this article. Maxim(talk) 15:07, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I had't forgotten about this request, but I had been swamped. At any rate, I've come across the image again in the book Hockey: A People's History, where it is credited to "Corbis/Bettmann" I've added that to the image page, as well as the date, Nov 01, 1959. Resolute 16:24, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Image:Plante firstmask.jpg still needs a FUR, and Resolute hasnt gotten back to me about the author. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 02:22, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Is David satisfied on the images yet? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:40, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for that. I'll try to track down the author, though that may be challenging. As to your originial comments on the first attempt at this FAC, I have gone through and removed several useless commas. Resolute 19:39, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support All my concerns were addressed before the restarted nomination. Kaiser matias (talk) 04:06, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - I supported before and am still satisfied that this meets the requirements. Giants2008 (17-14) 21:54, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment nice stuff. I'll go through it in detail to fix little things.
- Suggestion: when you mention Lester Patrick's proposal to suspend the Rangers activities in 43-44, it would perhaps be good to find a reference explaining why Canadian teams (and the Canadiens in particular) were not affected as much as the American teams. (Presumably this is because conscription did not start in Canada until 44 but I'm wondering whether that's the correct explanation since American teams had many Canadian players anyway...)
- Update on above suggestion: looking at hockeydb and comparing the 42-43 and 43-44 rosters [19] [20], there's some indication that Lynn Patrick, Alf Pike, Scotty Cameron, among a few others, did leave for the war but it still seems odd that the Rangers would be the only team affected that hard. The Wings and and Blackhawks had decent seasons so I think a few more explanations are needed here. Pichpich (talk) 21:13, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Some more comments: I've continued to copyedit the article and I feel that the prose is still a bit below FA expectations. Yeah, I know that good copyeditors are hard to find but there are a few places where the prose could be tightened and the flow improved. I'm not talented enough to fix it myself but I am able to recognize that there's room for improvement on that front. More specific questions:
- When did the NHL lose the CBS deal?
- Not really clear: did anyone ever adopt or imitate Sawchuk's "gorilla crouch"?
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 01:20, 30 September 2008 [21].
German women's national football team
- Nominator(s): Pinkkeith (talk), EnemyOfTheState (talk)
I'm nominating this article for featured article because it is well referenced, informative and well written. Pinkkeith (talk) 21:44, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Restart, old nom. Images and sources checked. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:33, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, as per previous nom. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 01:40, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)
"Before a crowd of 22,000, they dominated favourites Norway and won 4–1 with goals from Ursula Lohn, Heidi Mohr and Angelika Fehrmann." Eh, I'm not sure that "dominated" is NPOV."The German women's national football team wears white shirts with black shorts and white socks, following the tradition of the German men's team – black and white being the colours of Prussia." "being"-->are.- I fixed that. EnemyOfTheState (talk) 11:30, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Btw, I also support this nomination, although I'm not sure if I may do so as the primary contributor. EnemyOfTheState (talk) 11:30, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You can, but I won't really count it, so the bolding just gets in my way :-) Why aren't you listed as a co-nom if you are the primary contributor? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:56, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, Pinkkeith originally nominated the article. Once it was nominated, I thought it would probably be best if I responded here, because I know the text, as well as the used and available sources. EnemyOfTheState (talk) 13:17, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Would you like to be added as a co-nominator? I'm not sure how we missed this; I usually check all new nominations to be sure that primary contributors were consulted. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:18, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't really care either way. If this is in any way useful or practical, sure. EnemyOfTheState (talk) 19:04, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Would you like to be added as a co-nominator? I'm not sure how we missed this; I usually check all new nominations to be sure that primary contributors were consulted. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:18, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, Pinkkeith originally nominated the article. Once it was nominated, I thought it would probably be best if I responded here, because I know the text, as well as the used and available sources. EnemyOfTheState (talk) 13:17, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You can, but I won't really count it, so the bolding just gets in my way :-) Why aren't you listed as a co-nom if you are the primary contributor? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:56, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose - Sorry, but as per my previous comments, some work still needs to be done here and it's not quite up to scratch yet.
- First and foremost - the German references need to be translated. You can look at how I have done it on this article or you can think of your own method (ask questions if your not certain, not just here, but at the respective project pages etc). Basically, you need to translate the related information into English. Not the entire story, just what is actually necessary to back up the statements.
- I'm not sure about the information in the lead. Football team lead sections very rarely identify the manager and top goalscorer, even though I must admit it is well worded in here. It may not actually belong in the lead section. Have a look at Scotland national football team or even Croatia national football team again as I think these two have sufficient and almost perfect lead sections. Only the most vital of info should be initially stated, perhaps you could expand slightly upon the formation/acceptance of the team etc.
- I think there are some small forms of POV issues. The initially stated issues above are still yet to be fixed up ('dominated' is not neutral point of view). Additionally, there is a constant use of the word 'popularity'. Wikipedia does not make assumptions or present such points of view. You also use 'disappointing' a few times, also in a heading. You need to really rethink these section names and how you refer to them.
- The notes you have left with an astrix under some of the tables should be placed in references/footnotes.
- Why have you used the copyrighted logo twice? It is acceptable to use it strictly under the logo copyright declarations, but their use should be strictly limited only where it is necessary. You are portraying the obvious facts through an already copyrighted image. It is not needed in the 'Colours' section. It is already known that such a crest is displayed on the jerseys of the national team.
Still a long way to go, not quite up to top quality research material just yet. But it is beginning to look good, better and better everytime. Just take it slowly and fix up these issues before you consider anything else, as these are the most important things I think. Domiy (talk) 22:35, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think you judge this article by your own personal standards and preferences, not by WP guidelines or FA criteria. As I stated before, WP:NONENG does not ask for translations of foreign sources unless they are controversial or direct quotes. In fact, there are many sports FAs that use foreign sources without any translation (France national rugby union team, IFK Göteborg, etc.) Also, I do not believe that the structure of this article (such as the information in the lead section) needs to be entirely identical to a comparable FA like that of Scotland. EnemyOfTheState (talk) 13:17, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for verifying your own death (symbolically of course!). The wiki guideline you pointed me to clearly mentions translations are needed. Who are you to decide whether a statement backed up by a German reference will not be challenged? You cannot make that assumption, and must always consider the needs of the reader. It hasn't been hard for me to find challenged statements that can be contested and are backed up by German sources:
- "For most of the 20th century, women's football was a niche sport in Germany and was frowned upon. When the DFB appointed Gero Bisanz to coach the newly founded women's national team, he was initially very reluctant about his assignment and feared it would harm his reputation.[2]" --- I as the reader can easily contest this statement. How do we know that Bisanz was reluctant to manage to the national team? Is there a quote in which he admits this? Or does the article comprehensively explain his negativity? Either way, this has to be translated to verify the facts in English, since this is an English WP.
- "In 1955, the DFB decided to forbid women's football in all its clubs in West Germany. In its explanation, the DFB cited that "this combative sport is fundamentally foreign to the nature of women" and that "body and soul would inevitably suffer damage". Further, the "display of the body violates etiquette and decency".[2] " --- Here you have used direct quotes from the DFB and backed this up with the same German source. This especially needs to be translated appropriately. Whether the statement is challenged or not (it clearly can be), it still needs to be translated due to the use of a direct quotes.
- "Schmidt accepted the invitation but hid the fact that West Germany had no women's national team at the time.[3]" --- I as the reader can easily contest this as well. You are saying that Schmidt was reluctant to reveal the lack of a women's national team at the time. How can I know this for sure? Did Schmidt say this or does the article explain it? Translations are needed.
These are just some very few examples. They are everywhere. Sorry, but these German sources need correct translations to verify easily challenged statements (including quotes!). Your negative response towards this leads me to feel that you yourself may not even be able to read or understand German all too well, and you have used the sources incorrectly. This may not be the case, but please understand that the guidelines still stand against you. And you are yet to fix up the POV and other raised points. You should really assume good faith and take constructive advice! Domiy (talk) 08:10, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Go back and read WP:NONENG. It indicates translations are preferred, not required. While it would certainly better to have English language sources available, its not a surprise that the best supporting material is available in German given the subject of the article. Your criticsm is misguided. Wiggy! (talk) 11:45, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Wiggy, read what this article is actually trying to achieve. It is trying to achieve Featured Article status. The most basic description of such is always summed up in the simple words of exemplifying Wikipedia's very best work. Granted, some things may not be 100% dead-straight necessary, but Wikipedia's best work is something that stands out from the basic guidelines and requirements; it goes into broader features based on the strict criteria to ensure it is this domain's very best work.
- Support - I am happy this meets all requirements, good to see an article of this quality from the women's game -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:01, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support - as before. Has even been improved since my original review. Giants2008 (17-14) 17:26, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Images - There is a discussion at Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/Scotland_national_football_team#FARC_commentary that may be relevant to the use of the logo here. Regardless of the outcome of that discussion, use of Image:DFBWomen.png twice in the one article fails minimal usage per WP:NFCC, and thus FAC criteria 3. Fasach Nua (talk) 10:59, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I removed the second use of the image. EnemyOfTheState (talk) 11:56, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
CommentI'm glad you are prompt to respond to issues which seem easy to fixup. Sorry, it's just me, I'm very picky at things like this. Either raise discussion and give sufficient reasons as to why any of my points are not applicable, or go by them and fix up the article. One other probelm I found is the notes you have left under the tournament records section. First of all, as per my previous comments, they should be placed in seperate footnotes or references. Secondly, they are not really necessary. I'm not a big fan of stating the obvious like such:
- "*Gold background colour indicates that the tournament was won. Red border colour indicates tournament will be held on home soil." In the columns that are gold, it says 'Champions' in there anyway, and the gold colour really does enhance the idea that they have won it. There's no need to declare something twice. It says 'Champions' in there, everybody will already know they obviously won the tournament. The same goes for the red column indicating the fact that the tournament will be held on home soil. In that column, it already has the flag of Germany which identifies the tournament will be held in their own host country. There is no need to restate the obvious fact.
Personally, I'm a big fan of German football (not so much women's but I'm half German so it still interests me). As much as I would like to Support this article and see it as Featured Content, it cannot be done just yet. I'd be really pleased with having the German sources translated as per the guidelines. Domiy (talk) 01:26, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I removed the statement about the gold background, however I don't think the border color is very self-explanatory; I think that should be left in. I also don't think it's a particularly good idea to put all of them into footnotes. It's done just like that in many other football articles, plus some of these asterisks have footnotes themselves, which would make for very confusing references section.
- Regarding your main point of criticism, the translation of foreign sources: I'm afraid we might just have to agree to disagree on that. I'm not going to put in translations for all the German sources, which would be a whole lot of work with virtually no benefit for readers. Especially since such a translation by a random user is just as unverifiable for someone who doesn't speak the language as the actual source itself. Not to mention that there are dozen of FAs that handle foreign sources just like this article does. If this issue will prevent this page from getting featured, I just will have to accept that. EnemyOfTheState (talk) 11:29, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Please see Wikipedia:Colours#Using colours in articles; color should not be the only means of conveying information. Also see WP:NONENG, the original text of direct quotes should be provided in a footnote. WP:DASH fixes are needed. I see direct quotes (at least) in "Acceptance and popularity" and "Early history". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:56, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I fixed the dashes and included the original quotes in the footnotes. Regarding the colors, you want me to put the statement about the background color back in or even expand it? The colors are (in a way) explained in the results column of these tables (champion, second/third place). Of course, I don't mind including the explanation again. EnemyOfTheState (talk) 12:45, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Color should not be the only means of conveying information; blind or colorblind people need an alternate means of undertanding the text. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:47, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- But that is not the case. The color is just highlighting the tournament results, but the are also written down in the results column. EnemyOfTheState (talk) 12:55, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- How does a colorblind person deal with, "*Red border colour indicates tournament will be held on home soil." ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:12, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That is only additional information; the host countries are also indicated by the flag icons (granted, a colorblind person might have to move the mouse on it in order to identify the flag). But since there is only one kind of bold borders, plus all of these have a German flag in it, it's probably not too difficult to figure out that these are the mentioned 'red border colours'. EnemyOfTheState (talk) 13:34, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- How does a colorblind person deal with, "*Red border colour indicates tournament will be held on home soil." ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:12, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- But that is not the case. The color is just highlighting the tournament results, but the are also written down in the results column. EnemyOfTheState (talk) 12:55, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Color should not be the only means of conveying information; blind or colorblind people need an alternate means of undertanding the text. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:47, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I fixed the dashes and included the original quotes in the footnotes. Regarding the colors, you want me to put the statement about the background color back in or even expand it? The colors are (in a way) explained in the results column of these tables (champion, second/third place). Of course, I don't mind including the explanation again. EnemyOfTheState (talk) 12:45, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Please see Wikipedia:Colours#Using colours in articles; color should not be the only means of conveying information. Also see WP:NONENG, the original text of direct quotes should be provided in a footnote. WP:DASH fixes are needed. I see direct quotes (at least) in "Acceptance and popularity" and "Early history". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:56, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Translation reply to EnemyOfTheState - please stop referring to other Featured Articles. If there's one thing I have learned in my time at FA projects it is specifically that an article cannot gain any merits or light leeway in comparison to other articles. This is all about this article and this article only. It's funny you refer to other FA's as well. The amount of articles that passed for FA a few years ago are ridiculous, and it's no surprise they are the ones being listed for removal everyday due to them simply failing over time. Back on the main issue, as I said above, FA must show Wikipedia's best work, which would obviously mean that it must stand out uniquely from all the other basic articles. 1) The translation of foreign sources is doing just that, and is a big plus for the article. 2) I find it very annoying that you think it will not help the reader in any way. If you are going to think like that, then you may as well say all references all together don't really help the reader either, which is just another bogus statement. German sources are used very consistently throughout this article, and somebody who doesnt speak German is very likely to read the article and rely on the used references for verification and further information. If they see translated references on a Featured Article, they will know the translations are acceptable and so are the sources, so you dont need to worry about that. Additionally, they will be able to see how exactly the information is interpreted (sources can sometimes be misinterpreted which leads to confusion). There are so many reasons why German sources need to be translated. The fact that you have used them very consistently throughout this article is another prime reason. How do we, or the reader, know that you have not just stuck in any random German source which has nothing to do with the statements? We don't unless you provide translations. Again, the fact that you seem very negative towards this can easily lead anyone to think that you have actually done this. Domiy (talk) 14:18, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The reason I am negative towards this is due to the fact that this would be a lot of work with no real benefit. If you don't trust the foreign sources as the are, why would you then trust a translation I provide for them - that could be entirely made up as well. Per WP:NONENG, I have included the original text of direct quotes in the footnotes, which is really all you can ask for. I do not accept the examples above to be truly controversial statements; by that standard, everything would be disputed. If readers want to check specific sources, they can for example use an automated online translator or maybe ask a trustworthy user at WP:WikiProject Germany. EnemyOfTheState (talk) 15:34, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- NO! Maybe I have miscounted, but there are 32 German sources in your article. This is really unacceptable (without translations). Foreign sources should be used with minimum use, and only if there is no alternative in English. I very much doubt this is the case because of the amount of times you have used a German source throughout the article. Anyway, please refrain from trying to be given leeway on this article. Nominations aren't supposed to be taken lightly, this one is no different. What you're saying is that you expect the reader to go through the trouble of using a translator or asking questions just so they can verify some information being used in the article. I will tell you right now, what makes you think the reader will want to go through this trouble if you aren't willing to go through the same trouble yourself? Why should the reader have to be faced with such a task when this is clearly an article that you and your co-editors/nominators are responsible for? This cannot be the case with a Featured Article that is supposed to show Wikipedia's best work. How can 'best work' be mistaken for 'an article that cannot be verified in the respective language' (English)? Translating your sources will have a big influence on the reader, just as much of an influence as the normal use of any reference has: Verification! If you were to translate your sources, then I would be prompt to check your translations with a translator and possibly also ask questions myself; just so I can spare the reader the trouble and make sure that a Featured Article is actually Wikipedia's best work. Since you are not willing to translate based on insufficient arguments, then I don't see how you can possibly think this will pass FA. I really recommend you close this nomination, consider translating the German sources (for all the already stated reasons), and, when you do that, THEN consider coming back here. Until then, this article cannot even be verified in English.Domiy (talk) 22:54, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It stands to reason that the best sources about a German subject are in German. Expecting otherwise is a recipe for systematic bias. Asking for full translations of every German source is like asking for every single book reference to be accompanied by a verbatim copy of the page. With the exception of direct quotes, this is absolutely not the intent of WP:NONENG. The walls of text about this subject have probably already put off enough reviewers, perhaps further comment upon it should go to the nomination talk page. Oldelpaso (talk) 11:08, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 'Too much information to read' is not a sufficient argument. The walls of text contain constructive information. And your comments are also not sufficient either. You are proclaiming that using an English source (which is always the preference on WP) would deliver biased views in comparison to a source in the same language as the article subject. With the greatest respect to your efforts or attempts, this can be taken as a non-serious post. Foreign sources, especially those in the same language as the article subject itself, are very likely to not only convey, but also deliver biased information. It is evident in every host-nation domain. Sky Sports will always portray England as the preferred team, Jutarnji List will always portray Croatia as the preferred team, and The Scotsman will always portray Scotland as the preferred team. The same goes for German publishers portraying Germany as the preferred team. You, along with others, really need to read WP:NONENG instead of directing me to it. I have read it, and I will repeat it here for you just for assurance - Because this is the English Wikipedia, for the convenience of our readers, editors should use English-language sources in preference to sources in other languages so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly. In other words, this is clearly saying that in the case of foreign sources being used, translations are required, unless there is another way to ensure that non-bilingual readers can verify or be assisted by a source of information they don't even understand. Once again, let the record show the negativity shown by the editor in his refusal to translate the sources; it is very possible that they do not even back up the statements in the article. Unless you can verify this... Domiy (talk) 11:37, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You omitted the crucial part of the quote: "...editors should use English-language sources in preference to sources in other languages, assuming the availability of an English-language source of equal quality, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly." (emphasis from original). Oldelpaso (talk) 11:56, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 'Too much information to read' is not a sufficient argument. The walls of text contain constructive information. And your comments are also not sufficient either. You are proclaiming that using an English source (which is always the preference on WP) would deliver biased views in comparison to a source in the same language as the article subject. With the greatest respect to your efforts or attempts, this can be taken as a non-serious post. Foreign sources, especially those in the same language as the article subject itself, are very likely to not only convey, but also deliver biased information. It is evident in every host-nation domain. Sky Sports will always portray England as the preferred team, Jutarnji List will always portray Croatia as the preferred team, and The Scotsman will always portray Scotland as the preferred team. The same goes for German publishers portraying Germany as the preferred team. You, along with others, really need to read WP:NONENG instead of directing me to it. I have read it, and I will repeat it here for you just for assurance - Because this is the English Wikipedia, for the convenience of our readers, editors should use English-language sources in preference to sources in other languages so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly. In other words, this is clearly saying that in the case of foreign sources being used, translations are required, unless there is another way to ensure that non-bilingual readers can verify or be assisted by a source of information they don't even understand. Once again, let the record show the negativity shown by the editor in his refusal to translate the sources; it is very possible that they do not even back up the statements in the article. Unless you can verify this... Domiy (talk) 11:37, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It stands to reason that the best sources about a German subject are in German. Expecting otherwise is a recipe for systematic bias. Asking for full translations of every German source is like asking for every single book reference to be accompanied by a verbatim copy of the page. With the exception of direct quotes, this is absolutely not the intent of WP:NONENG. The walls of text about this subject have probably already put off enough reviewers, perhaps further comment upon it should go to the nomination talk page. Oldelpaso (talk) 11:08, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- NO! Maybe I have miscounted, but there are 32 German sources in your article. This is really unacceptable (without translations). Foreign sources should be used with minimum use, and only if there is no alternative in English. I very much doubt this is the case because of the amount of times you have used a German source throughout the article. Anyway, please refrain from trying to be given leeway on this article. Nominations aren't supposed to be taken lightly, this one is no different. What you're saying is that you expect the reader to go through the trouble of using a translator or asking questions just so they can verify some information being used in the article. I will tell you right now, what makes you think the reader will want to go through this trouble if you aren't willing to go through the same trouble yourself? Why should the reader have to be faced with such a task when this is clearly an article that you and your co-editors/nominators are responsible for? This cannot be the case with a Featured Article that is supposed to show Wikipedia's best work. How can 'best work' be mistaken for 'an article that cannot be verified in the respective language' (English)? Translating your sources will have a big influence on the reader, just as much of an influence as the normal use of any reference has: Verification! If you were to translate your sources, then I would be prompt to check your translations with a translator and possibly also ask questions myself; just so I can spare the reader the trouble and make sure that a Featured Article is actually Wikipedia's best work. Since you are not willing to translate based on insufficient arguments, then I don't see how you can possibly think this will pass FA. I really recommend you close this nomination, consider translating the German sources (for all the already stated reasons), and, when you do that, THEN consider coming back here. Until then, this article cannot even be verified in English.Domiy (talk) 22:54, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support This article really is a pleasant surprise. From a football point of view everything you'd expect in terms of comprehensiveness is there. The approach used in the "Coaches" section is different to a lot of similar articles, but as the team has only had three coaches there's no problem there. The one improvement I might suggest is that the second half of the history section perhaps might flow better with the odd sentence in there to link tournaments together or describe events between them. This is only a picky minor gripe though. Oldelpaso (talk) 10:59, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Additional opposes and comments first of all, the German sources are used too much. Remember the rules on this, you should only use them if there is no possible alternative in English. You say that Germany lost 1-0 to Norway due to an own goal in the semi-final at the 2000 Summer Olympics. Its the Summer Olympics! Are you telling me that there is absolutely no English story on the internet (BBC Sport for example) that does not publish results of one of the biggest sporting events around the world? I think not, meaning you have used German sources as primary references, which is wrong. Also, the references are badly mixed up. This source from FIFA is labeled as 'German', while this English source is also labeled as 'German', even though it is in English. Additionally, POV is still evident in the article and is yet to be fixed up since the points were initially raised. Domiy (talk) 12:08, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I removed the two incorrect language icons. The reason for the German source for the Olympics is to provide a reference for the claim that Germany dominated the game, but lost to an own goal; in that story even the Norwegian coach is quoted as saying his team was very lucky to come away with the win (btw, there are also two English language references for the 2000 Olympics in that short paragraph). I think there is really no point in discussing this any further here, we will clearly not come to an agreement on this issue. If you feel so strongly about this, you might want to consider taking the discussion to the talk page of WP:NONENG. EnemyOfTheState (talk) 12:45, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, and by the time I reach any conclusion there, this article would have already been promoted due to preference once again, then I would have to go through the review procedure which would again be ignored even with very sufficient evidence. I'm not talking out of any spite, it's happened before and I'm certain it will happen again. I don't see why I should take a discussion elsewhere when it clearly has a place here. You just refuse to see that. Featured Articles take a lot of work and time, you can't expect to get away easy with any of them. You must really show Wikipedia's best work in them. Again, you are trying to exemplify WP's best work by promoting an article that cannot even be verified in English, I don't see how that is possible. You say that the Norwegian coach described the win as 'lucky' or whatever, well please, to verify this information you need to really translate the relevant aspects of that source. It's the same with images, simply placing a tag is not good enough, evidence is always needed to prove that the image is actually released under the stated tag. This is called verification, and it needs to be done very commonly in Wikipedia. Since this is an English language WP and you refuse to translate any references which are in a foreign language, then they are actually unreliable. So, you have used an unreliable source for about half of your references. this is WP's best work, as it is very broad and clearly took a lot of time. If you are unwilling to help out the readers significantly and refuse to translate foreign sources, then I don't see how you expect to make FA. Domiy (talk) 23:48, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/José Sarria
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 01:43, 4 October 2008 [22].
Steve Bruce
- Nominator(s): ChrisTheDude (talk)
I've been working on this article on and off for what seems like about two years, constantly getting distracted and wandering off onto something else. I've now finally knuckled down and got it to what I feel is FA standard, feel free to agree or disagree :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:00, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- What makes the following reliable sources?
http://www.examiner.ie/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=sport-qqqm=sport-qqqa=sport-qqqid=71937-qqqx=1.asp deadlinks
- Otherwise sources look good, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:14, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- setanta.com is the website of Setanta Sports, one of Europe's leading sports TV networks. And examiner.ie is the website of The Irish Examiner, a daily national newspaper in the Republic of Ireland. I see no problem with either as a reliable source -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:24, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, early morning typo. Didn't mean to question the Examiner, just point out that it deadlinks. Corrected above. And I'm in the heart of the Midwest in the US, I'm not always familiar with European news networks, thanks for the explanation! Ealdgyth - Talk 12:28, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The deadlink has now been removed, the sentence in question is still referenced -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:29, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually I've just found the new URL of the Irish Examiner piece, so I'll put it back in........... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:36, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The deadlink has now been removed, the sentence in question is still referenced -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:29, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, early morning typo. Didn't mean to question the Examiner, just point out that it deadlinks. Corrected above. And I'm in the heart of the Midwest in the US, I'm not always familiar with European news networks, thanks for the explanation! Ealdgyth - Talk 12:28, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
comment - I am unconvinced Image:SteveBruceAutoBio.jpg meets WP:NFCC#8 Fasach Nua (talk) 13:53, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You're probably right. I've now removed it -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:07, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - First off, assuming that they check out, I love the pictures. It's so rare to see a free photo from the 1980s here. That said, I'm a prose and MoS reviewer by trade. Let's see if there's anything to fix...
Early life: Second Newcastle United link isn't needed.Playing career, Gillingham: The season links don't need to be piped anymore. En dashes are now in the titles. About time the soccer people made that change.Another Newcastle United link in there.Also an extra Football League Cup link here. And one for old Wembley Stadium.Manchester United: "was described in 2006 by the then United captain, Gary Neville, as the best in the club's history." "then United" needs a hyphen, I would imagine."with the result that Bruce captained the team..." This seems strange. How about "which led to Bruce captaining the team..." I don't like which or the somewhat passive voice, come to think of it. You'll have to find something better, I guess. There's a reason I'm only a reviewer."championsip of English football since 1967." And they've gone on to many more championsips since. :-)"at a time when Premier League rules restricted the number of foreign players which a club could include in its team." I'd really prefer "that a club could include in its team", as again I'm not a big fan of which.Extra Chelsea and Everton links. Also a Newcastle link again."having agreed a contract valued at..." Missing word here.
My main advice is to audit for overlinking, because I'm catching a lot of it. A run-through for hyphens couldn't hurt either, as I'm seeing a few places where they could be added. One example is "twelve point" in 1995-96. Giants2008 (17-14) 03:11, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Both the photos from the 1980s were taken by myself, so they're definitely OK. And I'm just in the process of correcting the various typos, etc, in another window :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 06:51, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I will say, however, that the season links do in fact still need to be piped, otherwise you'd end up with things like "Bruce spent the 1978–79 in English football season in Gillingham's reserve team", which reads like complete garbage...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 06:54, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Both the photos from the 1980s were taken by myself, so they're definitely OK. And I'm just in the process of correcting the various typos, etc, in another window :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 06:51, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Linking it as 1978–79 season might make it clearer. Oldelpaso (talk) 07:52, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That's what I meant. Sorry for the confusion. Anyway, I'm back to offer more comments.
Picky, but a space between references [59][60] [61].Later playing career: "which fuelled rumours that the manager was to be dismissed..." Is "fuelled" British English? Not sure about this one yet. At least I know rumours is good.- Style of play: "He was well known for carrying on playing even when injured..." Don't think the double ing reads that well. How about "He was well known for continuing to play even when injured..."
Early managerial career: "The team continued to struggle at the start to the 2000-01 season,..." Tos are repetitive. I'd replace the second with of.Return to Wigan Athletic: The linked date in here should be removed.Other activities: Comma after autobiography? (don't mean the book, which already has one; I mean the word.)
- That's all from me. Giants2008 (17-14) 19:27, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the further comments. Yes, "fuelling" rumours is perfectly good British English. Everything else I'll fix tomorrow morning, right now my wife wants to get online :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:43, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- All fixed now, sorry for the delay -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:04, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the further comments. Yes, "fuelling" rumours is perfectly good British English. Everything else I'll fix tomorrow morning, right now my wife wants to get online :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:43, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That's what I meant. Sorry for the confusion. Anyway, I'm back to offer more comments.
- Linking it as 1978–79 season might make it clearer. Oldelpaso (talk) 07:52, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments. Chris, the lead suggests that someone new should be brought in to copy-edit the whole text. It has promise as a nomination.
- "spell"—makes it sound as though it's a real let-down for him; "term"?
- changed
- "Bruce was rejected"—the reader is tossed and turned back and forward chronologically. Can you iron it out, and alter the paragraph boundary too?
- changed
- "and becoming"—remove "and"?
- changed
- Comma after "field", probably.
- changed
- "England" piped to the "English National Football Team". Is this hidden link wise? Readers are likely to spurn it as one of those useless links to commonly known countries.
- changed
- "has been described as one of the best English players of the 1980s and 1990s never to appear for the national team." Since this is an ironic turn of phrase, I wonder whether "described by blah" might be better (citation not needed here in the lead if it appears further down). Otherwise, it sounds as though WP is being ironic, which is just a little POV and informal for us.
- changed
- "Spells" again. I think of a spell in prison, or in the classroom corner.
- changed
- More chronological jumble?
- can't see where, could you elaborate?
My eyes strayed further down: "with Gillingham chasing promotion from"; see this. Tony (talk) 12:33, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- changed -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:45, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Further to the above, I've asked other editors at the football project to provide a fresh set of eyes on my prose..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:39, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- .........and the article has now been copy-edited by User:Kevin McE -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:37, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Further to the above, I've asked other editors at the football project to provide a fresh set of eyes on my prose..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:39, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Late in the 1992-93 season, Bruce scored twice in a 2-1 win over Sheffield Wednesday (the winnier coming in the 96th minute). This was hugely significant to Man United's title win (it was the game that saw Ferguson and Brian Kidd dancing and celebrating on the pitch before full time). Probably worth a mention? ArtVandelay13 (talk) 14:33, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Mention made -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:48, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support - With all my issues taken care of, this earns my support. I particularly like how his playing career is given appropriate space. It's easy to overlook this when writing about an active manager. Good job on it. Giants2008 (17-14) 01:44, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- "Bruce was among five former Premier League players signed by Birmingham manager Trevor Francis to add experience to a squad expected to challenge for promotion." I think you ought to say what division Birmingham were in either here or the last sentence of the previous sentence.
- There seems to be a slight inconsistency between styles for division names e.g. First Division or Division One.
- You might want to check for overlinkage. I've removed a couple of repeated links myself.
- "Birmingham made a slow start to the 2006–07 season in the Football League Championship and, after a 1–0 defeat at home to Norwich City, the team's fifth consecutive match without a win, there were calls for the manager to be sacked." Were these from fans again? Or from other people too?
The prose looks good and the article is extensive. Peanut4 (talk) 13:34, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]- All points addressed now, I think -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:44, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Above points addressed and it meets criteria 1, 2 and 4. I'm not particularly good at reviewing images at FAC, but as long as they're fine, I have no problem supporting this article. Peanut4 (talk) 14:03, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Why did the nominator cap the comments from me and Peanut? They're resolved, but it sets a bad precedent. Only the reviewer should be capping comments, and it should rarely be used anyway. Giants2008 (17-14) 02:55, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've removed them. Giants, if you come across this in the future, please feel free to remove them yourself; it's stated clearly in the FAC instructions. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:18, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Whoops, sorry, saw it for the first time on another FAC and thought it would make the page easier to read, nothing untoward was intended -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 06:50, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No problem, happens all the time. They cause a Template limits problem in arachives so we have to keep them to a minimum; you may have seen one from Ealdgyth, because I've asked her to continue using them, as her source reviews are often lengthy. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:55, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Whoops, sorry, saw it for the first time on another FAC and thought it would make the page easier to read, nothing untoward was intended -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 06:50, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Conditional support with some things needing to be fixed. 1. Captions are long, cut them to just what they are depicting. For example "Bruce lifted the Premier League trophy on three occasions." should just read "Premier League trophy", and the body of the text should be responsible for explaining why its important. 2. The "Life outside of football" should be renamed "Personal Life" with no subheadings (all merged into one). Ottava Rima (talk) 14:10, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support but I'm not 100% happy with text squashed between images - some of the cup images are a little arbitrary - I know they're in to brighten up the overall article but avoid squashing text... And couldn't you simply say "League" instead of "Football League/Premier League" in the summary of his appearances? And " rifle through his dustbin" is a little tabloid for me... Otherwise, great work. No senior caps. What a crime (and that's a Tractor Boy talking...) The Rambling Man (talk) 16:40, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 17:33, 13 October 2008 [23].
Problem of Apollonius
I'm nominating this article for featured article because I believe that it exemplifies the best of Wikipedia's work. This is a legendary problem on which dozens of mathematicians have worked, from Apollonius of Perga to the present. The problem can be solved by a great variety of methods, illustrating for students the richness and relatedness of mathematics, and highlighting some episodes in its history, such as the resurgence of geometry in the early 19th century. The problem is also relevant for modern navigation systems such as the GPS.
The article has undergone a Peer Review and became a Good Article over a month ago, with few changes since, indicating that it is stable. It has 43 kB of readable prose, one table, 23 static images and one animation that clarifies a mathematical transformation. It also has 72 inline-cited references (some are doubled up into a single citation), 11 books for further reading, and 7 external links to reputable websites. But above all, I hope that everyone enjoys the article! :) Willow (talk) 11:59, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. Note to reviewers: please do not change &-n-d-a-s-h-;'s to –, and other such HTML coding; I do that on purpose to help with proofreading. Thanks!
Comments
Current ref 34 (Eric W. Weisstein "Four Coins propblem) is lacking a last access date. Also, shouldn't it be Weisstein, Eric W. to fit with the rest of your references?
- Otherwise sources look good, links checked out with the link checker tool. Note that I couldn't evaluate the non-English sources ... even the Latin. Ecclesiastical medieval latin did not prepare me for mathematical Latin! (grins) Ealdgyth - Talk 12:05, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you so much, Ealdgyth, for your scrupulous attention to detail! :) I think I've fixed up that reference. And now that I know your preferences, I'll give you only medieval Latin to evaluate: Sensus noster iam marcescit, et in nobis refrigescit iam fervor ingenii; si quaeratur, quis hoc fecit, respondemus, "Nos affecit labor frequens FACii." ;) Willow (talk) 14:07, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- (flees from the Latin) Argh! College memories... Argh! Thanks Willow, looks like you're done! Ealdgyth - Talk 14:11, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - Looks solid. I knew that Willow was working on it and she's definitely made a change in the article. Good luck! —Sunday | Speak 20:28, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What gorgeous images ! But they need to be within sections, not above them; I hesitate to move them in myself, as that will create some layout problems (and there are a couple that are creating white spaces already). Also WP:MOS#Quotations on pull quotes and quotation mark/graphics. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:02, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The pull-quote from Apollonius might be stricken soon, based on other critiques, so I won't fix that just yet, although I would be interested to know whether {{cquote}} templates are categorically forbidden in Featured Articles? I kind of like the big splashy quotation marks, but others such as the royal pentomphaloid of blessed memory dislike them intensely, and I can imagine they might seem, well, a little unprofessional. :( In any event, I'll bow to the consensus, whatever that is.
- The image layout is a bit of a quandary for me. As I'm sure you're aware, it used to be a layout requirement that left-aligned images came before the subsection heading. Now that wording has been softened to: "Do not place left-aligned images directly below subsection-level headings, as this can disconnect the heading from the text it precedes. This can often be avoided by shifting left-aligned images down a paragraph or two."
- I can try to do that in some places, such as the beginning of the "Solution methods" section (Figure 3) as well as Figures 9 and 11; however, I don't see any solution for Figures 6–8? I'm sure you don't want me to interpolate unnecessary text just to satisfy an image layout issue. Willow (talk) 14:29, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Note that this is a subject of discussion at WT:MOS (See Prince of Canada et al). - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 21:35, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm sorry, but I'd much rather make geometrical animations and write medieval Latin poetry all day for Ealdgyth than wade through (or into) such conflicts, which depress me and tie my stomach up in knots. :P Can you just tell me what to do once it's all over? I really don't care one way or the other, as long as I can explain my topic without too much interference from the MoS. Thanks, Dan! Willow (talk) 23:02, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Second that thought :-) It looks very nice, but there's still one left-aligned image left under a third-level heading (in "Number of solutions"). Can that be moved right? I think the left-right alternating business is purely aesthetic and much less important than accessibility for readers who use screen readers, but honestly, I'm not sure how a screen reader would do with all the math formulas anyway. MoS suffers from WP:TLDRitis, but if you want to consult Graham about how his screen reader does with the article, you could post something brief to the talk page of WP:ACCESS. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:01, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you, Sandy, for your kind encouragement! :) I'll definitely follow your advice on asking Graham for help. The lone holdout image you mention, Figure 11, is a special case. After some brooding and ignoring all rules, I moved it from the proper right-aligned to left-aligned. The dilemma was that a right-aligned Figure 11 stacks on Figure 12, pushing it down and causing unwanted whitespace just before the poem by Frederick Soddy, as you can see here. Figure 11 can't move upwards because it must come after the Table of the preceding subsection, and it's not really practical to switch the order of the subsections, since Figure 11's subsection refers to the one preceding it. I kind of like the present look, but I also don't want to shut anyone out of understanding the article due to an easily fixed layout glitch. Hoping that this is an OK solution, Willow (talk) 09:22, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support
and commentsA really nice article, but two concerns: jimfbleak (talk) 06:44, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Forced image sizes. These override my thumb preference settings, and, although the images are excellent, make for an ugly layout. If this had not been at FAC, I would have removed most or all of the image sizes. I was going to withhold support on this issue, but I'll be away a for a few days, so supporting now in expectation of a fix.
- I can't decipher to whom this support belongs, no sig, and it will take me a long time to step back through the diffs; please add an {{unsigned}} template. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:45, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I know forced image sizes aren't customary, but the default image sizes were too small to read the subscripts on the figure labels, such as the "2" in d2. Is there a way of setting a minimum size? Whether a layout is ugly might be a little subjective (for instance, I find the defaults worse than the present article, naturally) but it seems that illegibility is something we can agree on. Willow (talk) 14:29, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Odd I'm not a FA regular, but MOS:IMAGE does say If an image displays satisfactorily at the default size, it is recommended that no explicit size be specified. so too small labels would be a reason to give explicit sizes. I would say default size works well for most here but figs 6, 9, 10, 13 and the unnumbered fig near fig 3 seem a bit too small to me. (should that fig be given a number for consistancy?) --Salix alba 16:47, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
opening sentence - ...is to construct circles that are tangent to ("touch") three given circles - I really don't like "touch"; tangent is linked and explained later in the text. An explanation in the key sentence disrupts the flow and seems inappropriate. Someone who can't pick up the idea of tangency pretty quickly won't get far in this article anyway.jimfbleak (talk) 06:44, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I sympathize about the "touch" interfering with the flow and I've tinkered with other ways of saying it; but it's hard to satisfy all the desiderata at once. I feel that the lead has to be able to stand by itself; I don't think we can expect that the reader will read the rest of the article or even follow the links. This is especially true for people who might be reading a geometry article on a cell-phone with a slow connection. (An admittedly unlikely scenario but, hey, geometers can dream, too. ;) I also feel that the lead has to be accessible to people who have never learned the mathematical definition of "tangent to". I could remove the "touch" and interpolate a parenthetical sentence, e.g., "(Two circles are tangent if they touch at a single point.)" Would that help, or would it interrupt the flow even more strongly? Willow (talk) 14:29, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Supportive comments by Jakob.scholbach (talk) 20:10, 23 September 2008 (UTC). Congrats, Willow, great article. (I read til Inversion methods for now.)[reply]
- Is that a Support or a Comment? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:45, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I believe that Jakob means to say that he's leaning towards Support because he likes the article and will do so once his relatively minor concerns are taken care of. Which I'm trying to do...the main outstanding thing left is to re-write the lead paragraph to encompass more of the technical details of the article without losing readers because of accessibility. I'm brooding over that and will likely dive in on Monday. Willow (talk) 14:28, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Exactly. Except for the lead section issue, I would already strike the "ive comments" above, but I will wait until that point is covered more adequatly. Jakob.scholbach (talk) 18:12, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Lead: "Apollonius' problem can be generalized in several ways. The three given circles can be of any size and at any distance from each other" - the wording is a bit unfortunate, I feel. After all in the original problem the positions are arbitrary right off the start, right?
- "Statement section": Given your apparent talent with images, I think that section would benefit of an image of a tangent vs. a secant.
Same section: I don't understand why you talk about two lines being tangent or not.
- Perhaps I was misguided in this, but it seemed necessary for completeness to discuss the meaning of tangency for all of our geometrical objects, not just the obvious ones. That's also why I discussed how points could be tangent, and whether something was tangent to itself. Does that seem reasonable? Did I understand your meaning correctly? Willow (talk) 21:10, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I see too possibilities: either you stick to the case where solutions are circles (proper, i.e. no points or lines), in which case you don't need to discuss when two lines are tangent, because at least one of the entities in question is a circle. Other case: you do allow lines as solutions (as you do in the "Resizing two given circles to tangency" section. If you do this, the lead has to reflect this somehow.
- As an aside: I have never heard people calling parallel lines tangent to each other. The projective plane image you may have in mind, i.e. considering the points at infinity, does IMO not really allow to call them tangent: parallel (distinct) lines intersect in infinity, but they are not tangent there (think of two great circles on a basketball).
- Perhaps I was misguided in this, but it seemed necessary for completeness to discuss the meaning of tangency for all of our geometrical objects, not just the obvious ones. That's also why I discussed how points could be tangent, and whether something was tangent to itself. Does that seem reasonable? Did I understand your meaning correctly? Willow (talk) 21:10, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I understand your point, but please consider the case of two tangent circles in the plane? They will become two parallel lines if we carry out inversion in a secant circle centered on their tangent point. If we say that inversion doesn't change the tangencies of inverted objects, by adding a point at infinity (rather than a line at infinity), then the two parallel lines are tangent at that point, aren't they? I'm imagining it's like putting two tangent small circles (not great circles) on the sphere so that their tangent point is the North Pole and then projecting down stereographically? Does that seem reasonable? Willow (talk) 00:44, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I did not check the details
, but it sounds somewhat reasonable. I suggest putting some of these thoughts into that section and finding a ref for this so as to escape OR.- Update: I'm doubtful that such a projection transforms two tangent circles into parallel lines, because the intersection multiplicity of the circles is 2, whereas the intersection of two lines (intersecting at infinity) have multiplicity 1. Jakob.scholbach (talk) 11:20, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I did not check the details
- I understand your point, but please consider the case of two tangent circles in the plane? They will become two parallel lines if we carry out inversion in a secant circle centered on their tangent point. If we say that inversion doesn't change the tangencies of inverted objects, by adding a point at infinity (rather than a line at infinity), then the two parallel lines are tangent at that point, aren't they? I'm imagining it's like putting two tangent small circles (not great circles) on the sphere so that their tangent point is the North Pole and then projecting down stereographically? Does that seem reasonable? Willow (talk) 00:44, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Figure 3: Showing the hyperbola you are talking about would be nice.
- A general markup concern: you use bold face pretty freely. I would not do this: it drags the readers attention to single symbols, it is also not standard in math books to use bold face for points, say, and also, I guess, the MOS has something in this direction. Also, the labels à la CCP don't deserve bold face, in my view.
Another markup thing: I am a bit irritated by switching so often between TeX markup and standard text. I personally prefer standard, because the flow is better. Most of the formulae (!hey ;) don't need TeX, for example the ones in the "Lie sphere geometry" section don't at all. I would suggest replacing every occurence of TeX, where it is possible, by standard markup.
- I'm sorry, but I don't see any TeX in the text of the article? If you meant the TeX equations in math mode, I'm really sorry, but I think I'd like to keep them that way. I find the TeX formatting much better than my kludgy formatting with italics and subscripts. Willow (talk) 21:10, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, it's about
- I mean, I won't insist, but why is the above nicer than
- (X1 | X2) = v1w2 + v2w1 + c·c − s1s2r1r2
- Yes, it's about
- I'm sorry, but I don't see any TeX in the text of the article? If you meant the TeX equations in math mode, I'm really sorry, but I think I'd like to keep them that way. I find the TeX formatting much better than my kludgy formatting with italics and subscripts. Willow (talk) 21:10, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Admittedly, the difference in quality isn't glaring, but I do prefer the LaTeX version on my screen, particularly for its spacing and positions of subscripts. De gustibus nihil disputandum est, perhaps? :) Willow (talk) 00:47, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Why is it "Viète's reconstruction"?
"Multiplying out the three equations and canceling the common terms yields formulae for the coordinates xs and ys" - I don't see ad hoc why this gives linear equations. Could you specify what you mean by "canceling"?
- When multiplied out, all three equations will have xs2 + ys2 on the left-hand side, and rs2 on the right-hand side. Subtracting one equation from another eliminates these quadratic terms, leaving only the linear ones. Should I explain it more fully in the text? Willow (talk) 21:10, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"s1–3" is usually written "s1 ... s3".
In the first equation in "Lie sphere geom", why do you use the congruence symbol?
You should introduce or at least wikilink the |...| notation of the Euclidean norm.
I don't understand the rôle of the orientation of the circles. On the one hand you call it "for visualization", but then it is also the sign in terms of these tangencies. The only widespread meaning of orientation is the clockwise-counterclockwise thing, AFAIK.
The first question that comes to (my) mind in the inversion section: if the inversion is undone by applying it again, how come that a problem becomes "simpler" when applying the inversion?Jakob.scholbach (talk) 20:10, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Because the operation of inversion can render the problem more symmetrical, e.g., by making given circles concentric, or transforming them into parallel straight lines. Another good example of that is the Steiner chain, which I've been fitfully working on these past few weeks. I'm sure that a real mathematician could give you a better explanation and better examples, though. Willow (talk) 21:10, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Precisely; this is the usual reason to restate a problem, from the application of Cartesian coordinates to the Langlands conjecture: to get a new form which contains the same information, more conveniently arranged. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:17, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Because the operation of inversion can render the problem more symmetrical, e.g., by making given circles concentric, or transforming them into parallel straight lines. Another good example of that is the Steiner chain, which I've been fitfully working on these past few weeks. I'm sure that a real mathematician could give you a better explanation and better examples, though. Willow (talk) 21:10, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I have read the rest of the article:
Pairs of solutions: the text is partly almost the same as the image caption. Consider trimming down the caption of the image? In general, your image captions are really long.
Inversion to an annulus: Wikilinking "concentric" might be good.
- That's a good suggestion, although the article concentric definitely needs some TLC. :) Willow (talk) 00:29, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is "in tandem" English or Latin? I mean, is it common English use? Never heard that one.
Figure 7 and 8 have a number of captions (in the image) that don't seem to be used. e.g. r_inner, r_outer. I would remove these things, they just clutter up the image.
is there a reason for not using standard header markup at "Shrinking one given circle to a point" and the next one? The equal spacing before and after the heading looks a bit odd, I find.
You mention that Euclid solved the PPP and LLL case. It might be good to say that every middle school kid (at least in Germany :) learns this, and this is apparently much easier.
- To benefit students with less enlightened curricula, I explained those two cases in more detail in the article. You probably noticed that there's a daughter article that goes into all the special cases. Willow (talk) 00:29, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Here is, at last, a critical (in the original sense) point: the lead is, I have to say, fairly unbalanced. The generalizations, strangely, occupy a third of the lead, but much less of the article. Another third is occupied by the historical stuff. The current lead section gives the impression: it is an old problem, somehow there are 8 solutions, this can be done more generally.
I read above that your intention is to make the lead interesting or readable to the general public, but this should not be at the expense of matching the content. Please consider adding some hints how the solutions were achieved. You don't have to go into the details, obviously, but somehow the flavor of the many pretty complicated thoughts of the "ancient" geometric guys should be in the lead. This wish corresponds to some guideline "do not dumb it down", right?
- Dang, the more I think about it, especially in light of the question which "glasses" (acc. to Gg below) one wears, the more I come to the conclusion that outlining the solution methods, and somehow showing that the problem is a very nice example of how (some techniques in) mathematics evolved over time, is a must. Jakob.scholbach (talk) 20:15, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Another statement I miss a bit in the article is a qualitative comparison of the methods. As far as I personally see it, the geometric methods are terribly complicated, the algebraic is pretty nice (and by way of introducing these coordinates, the problem is almost trivial, which could be a nice info for the lead, too), finally the Lie sphere idea puts the other ones to shame with respect to elegance and simplicity.
- Of course I share your view that the Lie sphere approach puts others to shame by its elegance and simplicity, but it is important to realise that the beautiful algebra involves solving quadratic equations, and classical geometers were interested in "geometrical" (for them, straight edge and compass) constructions. Solving quadratic equations is ugly from this point of view, and so the other geometrical solutions (which are indeed terribly complicated) are actually simplifications of the direct translation of the algebraic solutions into classical geometry. What is simple and what is beautiful depends upon the glasses we use. Geometry guy 20:00, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, I'm aware of this. Anyway, some evaluation should be in the article. Even saying that the problem amounts to solving quadratic equations is a good hint, and should be understandable to many, what the problem's nature is like. Jakob.scholbach (talk) 20:15, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree. However, our ability to include evaluation is limited to what reliable sources have to say. Here I leave the discussion in Willow's capable hands. Geometry guy 20:24, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, I'm aware of this. Anyway, some evaluation should be in the article. Even saying that the problem amounts to solving quadratic equations is a good hint, and should be understandable to many, what the problem's nature is like. Jakob.scholbach (talk) 20:15, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- We're getting a little subjective here, no? Perhaps there are other ways of viewing the the complexity/elegance of the solutions? I need to 'fess to my own pair of glasses here. I've a childhood love for geometry (at least those that I can visualize easily) and true love lasts a lifetime; I find the geometrical solutions cool and fun, even a little bit racy, like a good paranormal romance novel. On the other hand, I find the algebraic solutions, well, a little anticlimactic, rather like a textbook on accounting. Sure, they're true — but are they Art? ;) I'm not this way, but a jaundiced eye might see Lie spheres as just a convenient tool for 5-column bookkeeping. (gasp — forgive me, G-guy! ;)
- That said, I'm open to discussing the methods more in the lead, provided that it engages and doesn't scare off potentially interested readers. I think that might be possible; where there's a will — and people of good will and good sense — there's surely a way, don't you agree? :) Willow (talk) 00:29, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Subjective, moi?! ;) Alas our poor eyes, jaundiced or otherwise, cannot fully appreciate the geometrical beauty of the Lie quadric, constrained as they are by having two dimensional retinas. If these were three dimensional instead, then those 5d column vectors would come to life as points in projective four space. We would then see the Lie quadric, a three dimensional hypersurface, criss-crossed with lines, stretching majestically out to infinity, just as easily as we can see its two dimensional analogue, the hyperboloid of one sheet. Now that's geometry! And perspective it is best painter's art. Geometry guy 17:58, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The wording "The eight solution circles differ from one another in how they enclose (or exclude) the three given circles; the eight circles correspond to the eight ways of enclosing or excluding the given circles." is a bit repetitive. Jakob.scholbach (talk) 19:16, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment on orientation. In plane geometry there are two ways that two circles can be tangent: from the inside (one circle inside the other) or from the outside. In Moebius (or inversive) geometry, these two ways are equivalent, because an inversion, centered on a point which is outside one of the circles but inside the other, exchanges the two pictures. Lie sphere geometry resolves the ambiguity in a different way: by orienting the circles. For visualization, such an orientation can be viewed as little arrows or chevrons pointing either clockwise or anticlockwise around the circle. Now we can redefine "tangent" to mean "oriented contact" rather than just "contact": two circles make oriented contact iff they touch and the arrows on the two circles are pointing the same way at the contact point. Lie sphere geometry keeps track of the orientations by letting the radius of a circle have a sign. Willow has denoted these signs by the s's. Geometry guy 08:44, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Would epsilon or sigma be clearer than s? Some people who do not understand Lie groups nevertheless have met the usual conventions of mathematical notation. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:34, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Personally, I would absorb the signs into the radii, but this may be a too advanced viewpoint. An ε would be preferable to an s at the college level, at least for math majors who've done permutations or tensor analysis. I'm not sure it would help the rest of the readership. Geometry guy 20:21, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Would epsilon or sigma be clearer than s? Some people who do not understand Lie groups nevertheless have met the usual conventions of mathematical notation. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:34, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Not particularly arbitrary section break
Qualifiedsupport. I've given Willow way too much grief and not much help over this article! She has made it into an impressive piece of work. I'm happy to support it now modulo the scientific citation guidelines. A general citation would be helpful to the reader at the beginning of the sections on : "Statement of the problem", "Intersecting hyperbolas", "Inversive methods", "Pairs of solutions by inversion", "Gergonne's solution", "Ten combinations of points, circles and lines" and "Number of solutions". I also added two tags. I think these are easily fixed, and hope to cross out "qualified" very soon! Geometry guy 21:59, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]- I've fixed all my concerns and a lot more besides. Change to "enthusiastic support". Geometry guy 13:30, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - these could easily be opposed issues, but I believe they will be easily remedied: 1. "Statement of the problem" has no citations, and a citation needed tag. Please provide at least a primary source to look at. Two or three references, even if broad, would make the section better. 2. "History" End of the second paragraph in this section needs a citation. 3. "Intersecting hyperbolas" there is text sandwiched between two images. I don't know what can be done to fix this, but it may cause problems. 4. The captions of the "figures" are lengthy, and might be best to be mentioned in the article and point to (figure 1, 2, etc) instead of being in the caption. 5. "Algebraic solutions" should have some citations to where these equations come from so people can look at them later. If they, and the next sections, are using the references at the very end, could you please make that clearer at the beginning (something to say, according to ___ the equations are: ). 6. Figure 7 and 8 are left formatted and cause some formatting problems. Perhaps move to the right, or cut the captons down as I suggested above? 7. Sandwiching problems with figures 9 and 10, which could be fixed if you cut the captions down in the way suggested above. 8. Figure 11 causes the subheadings to format improperly. It is because it was an image put before a subheading. Could you fix this? Thats it. All formatting issues and a few primary sources needed to be refered to more often for people like myself to go back and check more easily. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:14, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've fixed 1, 2, improved 3, and fixed 8. Regarding 4, other reviewers have pointed to the benefit of long captions, so I'm going to respect Willow's editorial choice here. Regarding 5, the general reference is at the beginning of the section per scientific citation guidelines. With no disrespect intended, the equations in this section are trivial. Regarding 6, what counts as a formatting problem is somewhat subjective. Regarding 7, I only get sandwiching problems on a widescreen browser, where it is not a problem: as I narrow the browser the sandwiching goes away. I've tested my improvement of issue 3 in a similar way. Geometry guy 13:30, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Further to this and Randomblue's comments, I've copyedited the captions (over 700 characters removed). Geometry guy 19:23, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Update: Thank you for everyone's thoughtful reviews and suggestions! I'll return to improve the article tomorrow. Per Sandy's advice, I've been working with Graham87 to address the accessibility of the images; I made {{Alt Image}} as a workaround, but the ever-resourceful Simetrical heard our plea and updated the MediaWiki software itself in r41364, which should go live soon (keep checking Special:Version!) I'm brooding over the lead and the formatting issues, which I'll hopefully amend to all your satisfactions tomorrow. Thanks for your patience! :) Willow (talk) 23:04, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I need an accessibility expert reviewing FACs :-)) I just sent the Germanium editors to see Graham87; maybe you can help out if you become knowledgeable in this area? So far, I suspect I'm the only one reviewing for WP:ACCESS. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:07, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support as I trust the concerns listed above (see G-guy, , Ottava etc.) will be addressed. Some potential wikilinks include:
- shrunk to zero [[radius]]
- generalizations to even [[higher dimension]]s
- tangent, although two [[Parallel (geometry)|parallel lines]]
- of distances to two [[fixed point]]s
- on the [[Sides of an equation|right-hand side]]
- [[Linear independence|linearly independent]]
- must lie on the [[Bisection|perpendicular bisector]] line
- pertain if the [[speed of sound]]
- is not [[Isotropy|isotropic]]
- boundaries of an [[infinite set]]
- are the [[curvature] and radius
- Ling.Nut (talk—WP:3IAR) 03:00, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done except fixed point (mathematics), as this isn't the meaning here. Geometry guy 13:30, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support in terms of prose. I do hate whatever template produces those lines of clunky equations. Why do they have to be so big? Why does the font have to be so unattractive? I see at least one example where the template hasn't been used on stand-alone equations, and it's much nicer (although almost too small now). Tony (talk) 05:06, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Jakob. Randomblue (talk) 16:41, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The points I have raised are just examples, they certainly don't form an exhaustive list.
- 1) ref 34 has a date problem
- 2) ref 43 has an inconsistent dot
- 3) Why are Reye T and Gosset T redlinked?
- 4) ref 52 and 53 have inconsistent dots
- 5) the four instances of 'Ecole' should be 'École'
- 6) '(d=1)' -> bad spacing
- 7) "Apollonius of Perga (ca. 262 BC – ca. 190 BC) posed and solved this famous problem in his work Επαφαι ("Tangencies"), which has been lost." How can we know he actually solved the problem? Maybe write 'thought to have solved'.
- His solution was described by others in works that haven't been lost. This is noted in the history section. Ben (talk) 13:48, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, but to what extent can we affirm he solved the problem using "descriptions" of his proof? Randomblue (talk) 14:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- To the extent that this what the reliable sources say. :-) Geometry guy 13:30, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, but to what extent can we affirm he solved the problem using "descriptions" of his proof? Randomblue (talk) 14:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 8) "Many eminent mathematicians have developed various geometrical and algebraic methods for solving this problem". Why 'eminent'? Wikipedia:Avoid peacock terms
- 9) "which has practical applications in trilateration". Why 'practical'? This seems redundant.
- 10) "These eight circles represent the solutions to Apollonius' problem and are sometimes called Apollonius circles" I find this is misleading. When there are less solutions we still call them 'Apollonius circles', right?
- 11) In the second paragraph of the lead I count 5 occurrences of "eight"
- 12) "difference d1−d2" wrong spacing
- 13) "Viète solved all ten of these cases using only compass and straightedge" needs rephrasing. Viète certainly used other things to solve these cases (such as hard work, thought, paper, ...). What you mean is "Viète found all solutions to these ten cases, and the constructions can be made using only compass and straightedge."
- Ahh, I think the current wording is better. To solve a problem using only a compass and straightedge has a precise meaning, and a wikilink is provided earlier in the text to explain this if someone isn't sure. Ben (talk) 13:48, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I didn't say my wording was better, just that the current wording needs to be changed (to be specific, the verb "solved" needs to be changed). Randomblue (talk) 14:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed by adding "constructions". Geometry guy 14:05, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I didn't say my wording was better, just that the current wording needs to be changed (to be specific, the verb "solved" needs to be changed). Randomblue (talk) 14:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 14) in the fourth paragraph of the "Viète's reconstruction" section, I don't understand the convention for explicitly describing the cases. For example, "CPP case (a circle and two points)" but "CLP case".
- 15) "and again in 1936 by Nobel laureate Frederick Soddy" why is 'Nobel laureate' relevant?
- 16 "to construct H. Rademacher's contour for complex integration" is the text going to be consistent with the references with regard to dots in names?
-
- Very last section. Randomblue (talk) 14:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No it isn't. The text uses full names or surnames only. I've fixed H. -> Hans. Geometry guy 14:15, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 17) "Apollonius' problem can be framed as a system of three coupled quadratic equations." what is a 'coupled quadratic equation'?
- A quote from a book I came across while looking for a way to be precise: "problems describing different types of mechanics may be coupled through a variety of mechanisms with varying degrees of interaction. Both of these characteristics are difficult to generalise and quantify and lead to a certain vagueness when discussing coupled problems in general terms." Nevertheless, I had a go at clearing this up. Ben (talk) 13:48, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, I feel a bit stupid, but I still don't understand what this means. Randomblue (talk) 14:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Nor do I, but I do understand what a quadratic equation is and have wikilinked it. Here "coupled" simply means that the three equations involve all three unknowns x_s, y_s and r_s, i.e., they are not separate quadratic equations for each unknown. I've wikilinked it. Geometry guy 14:05, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, I feel a bit stupid, but I still don't understand what this means. Randomblue (talk) 14:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 18) "The three signs s1, s2 and s3" -> s1, s2 and s3 are not signs
- 19) "(2 × 2 × 2 = 8)" Maybe 2^3 would be a more appropriate.
- 20) "The general system of three equations may be solved by the method of resultants." Good to know! So what is a resultant? I would like to take this as an example to show that the level varies extremely within the article. Some trivial points sometimes take 3 lines to explain ("Apollonius' problem can be framed as a system of three coupled quadratic equations.[23] Since the three given circles and any solution circle must lie in the same plane, their positions can be specified in terms of the (x, y) coordinates of their centers. For example, the center positions of the three given circles may be written as (x1, y1), (x2, y2) and (x3, y3), whereas that of a solution circle can be written as (xs, ys). Similarly, the radii of the given circles and a solution circle can be written as r1, r2, r3 and rs, respectively."), and then bluntly, in half a line, the reader is assumed to know resultants.
- The method is described in detail following that sentence. Ben (talk) 13:48, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, but I still don't know what a resultant it. Maybe add a wikilink. Randomblue (talk) 14:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done (not by me). Geometry guy 14:05, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, but I still don't know what a resultant it. Maybe add a wikilink. Randomblue (talk) 14:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 21) images: 'succinct captions' is part of criterion 3. Clearly not satisfied for nearly all images.
- Agreed, but I think some leniency should be given for mathematical images. According to WP:CAP, make sure the reader does not miss the essentials in the picture. The images in this article contain a lot of information that, with a good explanation, go a long way to help the reader see what is going on - even if the article is over their head. Ben (talk) 13:48, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Agreed, but a lot of useless (by which I means already explained in the article) appears in the captions. For example, in Figure 2, the following is useless: "In each pair, one solution circle encloses the given circles that are excluded by the other solution, and vice versa. For example, the larger blue solution encloses the two larger given circles, but excludes the smallest; the smaller blue solution does the reverse." Randomblue (talk) 14:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've copyedited the captions (a reduction of over 700 characters), but I don't want to remove information that is useful to the reader in interpreting the symbols, colours, etc. appearing in the image. Geometry guy 19:23, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Agreed, but a lot of useless (by which I means already explained in the article) appears in the captions. For example, in Figure 2, the following is useless: "In each pair, one solution circle encloses the given circles that are excluded by the other solution, and vice versa. For example, the larger blue solution encloses the two larger given circles, but excludes the smallest; the smaller blue solution does the reverse." Randomblue (talk) 14:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 22) "one example is the annular solution method of H. S. M. Coxeter" dots?
- 23) "using only a compass and straightedge" delete a before compass or add a before straightedge
- 24) "Many simple constructions are impossible using only these tools" 'simple'? POV. Actually, because they can't be perfomed using compass and straightedge, they could be described as difficult!
- 25) "Therefore, van Roomen's solution—which uses the intersection of two hyperbolas—might violate the straightedge-and-compass requirement." 'might'. So we're not actually sure?
- 26) "Prior to Viète's solution, the mathematician Regiomontanus doubted whether Apollonius' problem could be solved by straightedge and compass." Is it necessary to point out that Regiomontanus was a mathematician?
- 27) "Viète first solved the simpler special cases of Apollonius' problem" What do you mean by 'the simpler special cases'? Do you 'some of the special cases'? Also, I'd avoid using "simpler".
- 28) "Apollonius' own book on this problem—entitled Επαφαι ("Tangencies", Latin: De tactionibus, De contactibus)" why is the Latin title relevant?
- 29) "Whereas Poncelet's proof relies on homothetic centers of circles and the power of a point theorem, Gergonne's method exploits the conjugate relation between lines and their poles in a circle. Methods using circle inversion were pioneered by Julius Petersen in 1879;[15] one example is the annular solution method of H. S. M. Coxeter.[16] Another approach uses Lie sphere geometry" In two lines you manage to fit in many 'sophiticated' tools with no explanation whatsoever. This could frighten people, who might expect a 'soft' introduction in the 'History' section.
- I think up until this point, the history section keeps things fairly straight forward for the interested reader. The point of these last two paragraphs is to note that other methods have been developed (with a hint as to how), with supporting wikilinks and references for the more experienced reader, and discussion of the methods later in the article. The less experienced reader can still take something away from the paragraphs, by noting that people have worked on the problem even in (relatively!) recent times. On the other hand, not mentioning these would leave a gap in the history in my opinion. Ben (talk) 13:48, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 30) "(In complex analysis, "infinity" is defined precisely in terms of the Riemann sphere.)" 'defined precisely', sounds redundant.
- 31) "In general, any three distinct circles have a unique circle—the radical circle—that intersects all of them perpendicularly" citation needed. Also, 'radical circle' could do with a wikilink.
- 32) First sentence of 'Pairs of solutions by inversion' : "solutions to Apollonius' problem generally occur in pairs"; later in the section, "solutions to Apollonius' problem generally occur in pairs"
- 33) "Inversion has the useful property that lines and circles are always transformed into lines and circles, and points are always transformed into points." -> reference needed
- This is standard, and covered by the general ref that I added to the beginning of the section. Geometry guy 14:05, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 34) the serial comma is not respected throughout, see for example "three given circles of radii r1, r2 and r3"
- I prefer to neither respect nor disrespect the serial comma :-) It is useful where it adds clarity. Geometry guy 14:05, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 35) still remains point problems in references 34, 54 and abbreviation problems in references 52, 53
- 36) the citations needed need to be dealt with
- I added the citations needed. And I've fixed them :-) Geometry guy 14:05, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 37) Mathematical facts should be referenced, as for the article Group (mathematics). For example, the whole "method of resultants" goes unreferenced. Randomblue (talk) 14:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've added some general citations to cover standard facts. Geometry guy 14:05, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 38) "Célèbres Problêmes mathématiques." The current spelling for 'problem' in French is 'problème', not 'problême'. However, the old spelling might have been 'problême', although I doubt it. Also, French titles usually only have a capital on the first word.
- 39) "Pappus d'Alexandrie: La Collection Mathématique" check capitalization.
- 40) "Traité de Géométrie" capitalization
- 41) "Inversion in a circle with center O and radius R consists of the following operation (Figure 5): every point P is mapped into a new point P' such that O, P, and P' are collinear, and the product of the distances of P and P' to the center O equal the radius R squared" -> 'inversion' and 'collinear' could do with wikilinks; why 'new'?, the point need not be new; why 'every'?, your definition does not apply to O
- 42) 'Lie quadric' could go with a wikilink
- Added a wikilink, but there is no page on this yet. I don't know enough about the space to create anything more meaningful than what is given in this article, but the description given in this article suffices for what follows. Ben (talk) 11:01, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've made this into a redirect to the beautiful article on Lie sphere geometry :-) Geometry guy 14:05, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Added a wikilink, but there is no page on this yet. I don't know enough about the space to create anything more meaningful than what is given in this article, but the description given in this article suffices for what follows. Ben (talk) 11:01, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 43) "This formula shows that if two quadric vectors X1 and X2 are orthogonal (perpendicular) to one another—mathematically, if (X1|X2) = 0—" why is 'orthogonal' not 'mathematical'?
- 44) Geometry: Euclid and beyond -> capitalization of English titles
- 45) "Apollonius problem is to construct one or more circles tangent to three given objects in a plane, which may be circles, points or lines. Thus, there are ten types of Apollonius' problem" 'Thus' seems to be the wrong connecting word. The result ("there are ten types of Apollonius' problem") doesn't follow immediately from the premise. Also, the result needs a reference.
Comments on the sources:
- "Statement of a problem" section could use a citation or two. Especially where the article cites GPS as an application of the problem, a citation could go there.
- There also is a citation needed tag in the applications section. I think a reference belongs in the beginning section of that paragraph.
- Otherwise, I think this article meets the FAC criteria 1c, which concerns sourcing. I did some looking around on Google Books and Google Scholar to see if key papers and books are included as citations in this article, and that appears to be the case. --Aude (talk) 04:51, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. (Fixed my own tags and more besides.) Geometry guy 14:05, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Status? Does anyone know the status? WillowW hasn't edited since the 30th. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:49, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The lead
Reminder Since Willow seems to be on a wikibreak I just want (in case it's somehow lost in the long running of the candidacy) to remind those of you who kindly work on this article at the moment that there is still a central problem with the article, namely the lead section. Please see my comments above. For the moment this issue still prevents me from supporting this article being featured. Jakob.scholbach (talk) 19:48, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Ah, yes, good point. Luckily, I'm allegedly an expert on WP:LEAD. How does it look now? Geometry guy 20:58, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, is better. But could still be improved: first, it's still unbalanced: generalizations get lot of attention, inversive methods are not mentioned. I mean I don't wanna insist that every subsection has to be covered proportionally, but it's a point. More importantly, the lead doesn't flow that well (e.g. I'd incorporate the limiting cases in the description of the solutions, since this is factually linked. Likewise the number of solutions (8) should be connected to the (not yet extant) mentioning of the inversive strategy). Another example where the flow is interrupted is the line break after the first paragraph. It closes with history, and the next paragraph starts with history, too. Finally, I'd love to have a qualitative description of the development of the solution methods. Currently they are soberly listed, but convey little or no enthusiasm to people not acquanted to this stuff. Also "..., or additional symmetries" doesn't speak to me at all, instead it may even be distracting since people may wonder: "he? a circle is already pretty symmetric. what additional syms?". Jakob.scholbach (talk) 22:42, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Do you want to have a go at it? Geometry guy 22:48, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, I've given in another go, incorporating some of your suggestions, while also following Willow's view. Geometry guy 19:42, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, just at the same time I pasted my 2c (edit confl.). I tried to emphasize the evolution of the ideas behind the solutions, thus somewhat merging historical order with mathematical stuff. What do you think? Jakob.scholbach (talk) 20:01, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- My rewrite also merged history with solution methods, so we seem to be broadly agreed on that. I like the "solutions by algebraic means" and the "pairs of solutions" stuff, but I find the last three sentences of paragraph three somewhat empty of content and would rather tell the reader something interesting instead. What do you make of my version? Geometry guy 20:28, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Nice. Good that we have the article history! OK, my sentence with Gergonne is not great. In principle I do like the following two ones, though. Rewording and adding a little more flesh may be in order, certainly. Your version: Giving some trendy keywords as you do with GPS and Hardy-littlewood (I don't know if the latter rings a bell with general readers, though) is certainly a good method to remedy aridity or emptiness. I would personally refrain from putting two much folklore like the poem and the letter to the princess. Are you up to merging the two drafts? Jakob.scholbach (talk) 20:42, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. I can give it a go. One reason I added the (reliably sourced) folklore is to replace assertions like "important special case" with some facts about the special case that might indicate to the reader that it is important and interesting, but I guess I overdid it. I similarly don't like "to great effect", but there are facts that can be deployed there. Geometry guy 21:06, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, I gave it a shot. Inevitably, incorporating both our thoughts has added a few hundred bytes. Also inevitably, I've probably tended to favour my own structure. Geometry guy 22:41, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Nice. Good that we have the article history! OK, my sentence with Gergonne is not great. In principle I do like the following two ones, though. Rewording and adding a little more flesh may be in order, certainly. Your version: Giving some trendy keywords as you do with GPS and Hardy-littlewood (I don't know if the latter rings a bell with general readers, though) is certainly a good method to remedy aridity or emptiness. I would personally refrain from putting two much folklore like the poem and the letter to the princess. Are you up to merging the two drafts? Jakob.scholbach (talk) 20:42, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- My rewrite also merged history with solution methods, so we seem to be broadly agreed on that. I like the "solutions by algebraic means" and the "pairs of solutions" stuff, but I find the last three sentences of paragraph three somewhat empty of content and would rather tell the reader something interesting instead. What do you make of my version? Geometry guy 20:28, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, just at the same time I pasted my 2c (edit confl.). I tried to emphasize the evolution of the ideas behind the solutions, thus somewhat merging historical order with mathematical stuff. What do you think? Jakob.scholbach (talk) 20:01, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Looks great. Another issue I just refound when striking my above comment is the question with tangency of parallel lines (see above). I personally think they shouldn't be considered tangent (since their intersection multiplicity is one, not two, at infinity) but Willow seemed to be of this opinion. This is not that big of a deal, one could simply remove this statement if it is wrong (which I believe). Jakob.scholbach (talk) 06:17, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I had a quick look above, but the discussion I found was under a stricken comment. Are you concerned that two distinct parallel lines are described as being tangent at infinity? Ben (talk) 06:41, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, exactly. Perhaps I shouldn't have striked out the comment, but later I became aware of this being still an issue. For convenience I post it here again:
- Yes, is better. But could still be improved: first, it's still unbalanced: generalizations get lot of attention, inversive methods are not mentioned. I mean I don't wanna insist that every subsection has to be covered proportionally, but it's a point. More importantly, the lead doesn't flow that well (e.g. I'd incorporate the limiting cases in the description of the solutions, since this is factually linked. Likewise the number of solutions (8) should be connected to the (not yet extant) mentioning of the inversive strategy). Another example where the flow is interrupted is the line break after the first paragraph. It closes with history, and the next paragraph starts with history, too. Finally, I'd love to have a qualitative description of the development of the solution methods. Currently they are soberly listed, but convey little or no enthusiasm to people not acquanted to this stuff. Also "..., or additional symmetries" doesn't speak to me at all, instead it may even be distracting since people may wonder: "he? a circle is already pretty symmetric. what additional syms?". Jakob.scholbach (talk) 22:42, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Statement section: I don't understand why you talk about two lines being tangent or not. I did not check the details, but based on the common interpretation of tangency meaning intersection multiplicity two or higher, two parallel (distinct) lines do not qualify as tangent (use Bezout's theorem, for example, which computes their intersection multiplicity (at infinity) to be 1). I suggest finding a ref for this claim, if you consider it still right, so as to escape OR.Jakob.scholbach (talk) 06:47, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]- You're thinking in terms of projective plane geometry, where there is a line at infinity, and parallel lines do indeed meet with multiplicity one. That's not relevant here: the natural geometry is Moebius or inversive geometry, where there is just a point at infinity (as in the Riemann sphere). In that case all lines meet at infinity (obviously!) and parallel lines are tangent at infinity. I corrected this issue some time ago. Is further clarification needed? Geometry guy 08:29, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- All right. That makes sense. I hadn't caught your edit there. The current wording "two parallel lines can be considered as tangent at a point at infinity." is still vague. With your explanation here it becomes understandable. So, perhaps add what you just explained me. A precise reference for this idea would be good, too. So, I'm happy to support this article being featured. Jakob.scholbach (talk) 08:43, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think Geometry Guy has already added a reference, but I've checked that it's discussed in Needham's Visual Complex Analysis so I can add another if you want. Ben (talk) 10:38, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- One ref per fact is fine! Jakob.scholbach (talk) 16:07, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The Needham ref might be more accessible (in every sense) for more readers, so I don't mind if you want to substitute it. Anyway, thank you Ben, Jakob and Randomblue (et al.) for helping to do justice to Willow's fine work. Geometry guy 18:18, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- One ref per fact is fine! Jakob.scholbach (talk) 16:07, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think Geometry Guy has already added a reference, but I've checked that it's discussed in Needham's Visual Complex Analysis so I can add another if you want. Ben (talk) 10:38, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 02:33, 2 October 2008 [24].
James Russell Lowell
- Nominator(s): Midnightdreary (talk)
I'm nominating this article for featured article because, well, I think it should be considered for featured article. Let me know what you think; any help is welcome. --Midnightdreary (talk) 11:38, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - sources look good, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:01, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In James Russell Lowell#Marriage and family should "the was made up" be she was or possibly they were? ϢereSpielChequers 13:05, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed. Thanks for finding that! --Midnightdreary (talk) 13:09, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support from Maralia I made a few minor copyedit fixes here and there. Some other issues:
Please choose 'anti-slavery' or 'antislavery' and stick with it throughout."In the spring of 1845, the Lowells returned to Cambridge to make their home at Elmwood and had four children, though only one survived past infancy." - Here your habit of joining sentences got a bit out of hand, unless they really had four children in the spring of 1845 :)"He was asked to contribute half as often to the Standard after only one year to make room for contributions from Edmund Quincy." - 'After only one year, he was asked...' would make this clearer, I think.- "A satire, Lowell published it anonymously and took good-natured jabs at his contemporary poets and critics" - Misplaced modifier.
This remains an issue with the revised sentence. See dangling modifier for an explanation.
"For six months, Lowell became depressed and reclusive" - There's a disconnect here between 'became' and 'for six months'."Some speculated the offer was because of the family connection as an attempt to bring him out of his depression." - This needs rephrasing; I think it's trying to get two distinct points across, but it's not clear.
From a MOS standpoint, this article is in great shape. There wasn't a single hyphen where an endash should be, only one image needed moving, and the references are consistently formatted. Good job! I did find a couple free images you may want to consider: this shot of an inscription purportedly combining a quote from Lowell with a quote from Shakespeare; and this shot of Elmwood in 1920. Honestly I'm not sure if I'd use either, but I thought I'd let you know they're out there. Thanks for an interesting article. Maralia (talk) 06:03, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the thorough review. I think I've made all the changes you've suggested (I went with "anti-slavery", by the way). Great comments (and copy edits)! --Midnightdreary (talk) 07:31, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have updated my comments above.
One additional thing: the 'disambig links' tool in the box at right shows several wikilinks that link to disambiguation pages rather than specific articles.Maralia (talk) 15:18, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Thanks for pointing out the disambig links; they've all been fixed. I think I've also fixed the remaining concerns from before. I made a mistake and completely misunderstood one of your suggestions. Sorry about that! --Midnightdreary (talk) 20:41, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have updated my comments above.
- Err... you might have to enlighten me a bit. --Midnightdreary (talk) 11:49, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- he was a member of the Spanish Academy, which he was very pleased about.
- the MLA has a prize named after him
- Currently looking for more stuff.. note that if i find many key facts missing, I'll have to Oppose based on 1b. But we're not at that point yet. Ling.Nut (talk—WP:3IAR) 12:16, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Naturally; I would expect nothing less. I certainly didn't purposely leave out information and I try to be comprehensive with these articles but, really, that's never 100% possible. I haven't come across either of your two points in my studies of Lowell. I will look into verifiable information if it seems relevant. --15:11, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
- Found info on the Spanish Academy. I might just use the MLA web site as a source for the Lowell prize. --Midnightdreary (talk) 19:29, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I added info on the MLA's JRL prize - but I'm not sure I formatted the footnote properly. I'm not much of an online source user here on Wiki. Can anyone confirm it is okay? --Midnightdreary (talk) 22:18, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support with comments: Engaging and well researched, as usual. I only have a few nitpicks:
- He used his poetry, in part, for reform, particularly in abolitionism. A little clunky with the repetitive commas, but I'm not sure how to fix it. Any ideas?
- shortly after the groom published Conversations on the Old Poets, a collection of previously published essays. Of his previously published essays?
- "leaned for a long while against a tree weeping", according to the Longfellows, who were in attendance. This is the first time that Longfellow is mentioned, but he's linked and introduced later in the paragraph.
Hooray for the Fireside Poets! Perhaps this will be the beginning of a Featured Topic? María (habla conmigo) 15:19, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeah, Longfellow kept popping up in my research. I wasn't trying to make it look like it was a Longfellow/Lowell reunion but he just kept coming back! I'll make these fixes. And, yes, the Fireside Poets should definitely be a featured topic! Shall we...? My goal is to get a Poe FT first, though. Then maybe some Transcendentalists. So much to do!! --Midnightdreary (talk) 15:28, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support, with requests:
- Can you explain who the Fireside poets are, briefly in the lead?
- You also might have to change abolitionism to "abolition of slavery" as many non-Americans don't equate the term "abolition" automatically with slavery.
- His poetry has been criticized for being forgettable? Harsh.
- I'm curious how Lowell got on in Spain and what he found so funny about social situations. Can you give examples?
- Never have I seen such a term as "Swedenborgianism". Please define it briefly to keep readers on your article lest they get distracted by a term that could only, by appearance, refer to Abba.
- Inner light and pacifism? Was he a Quaker?
- Well done, as usual Midnightdreary. I enjoyed reading it quite a bit. --Moni3 (talk) 17:23, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the comments. I've added info on both "Fireside Poets" and the latest hit single from Abba. I'm also learning that not even Americans know what I mean when I say "abolitionism" so I've fixed that too. Yes, lots of Lowell's critics are quite harsh (and I hardly think A Fable for Critics is forgettable, but I'm a 19th century book nerd). I have no specific examples of any social situations in Spain (biographies seem to gloss over the diplomat years); apologies for that. No, he wasn't a Quaker (he was an Abba fan, err, Swedenbourgian). Thanks for taking a look! --Midnightdreary (talk) 19:29, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Notes, per WP:MOSNUM, what is the limit on digits and spelling out numbers? The article has, in two sentences, 15, then fourteen and fifty-six. Why not 14 and 56 ?
- Beginning in 1834, at the age of 15, Lowell attended Harvard College, though he was not a good student and often got into trouble. In his sophomore year alone, he was absent from required chapel attendance fourteen times and from classes fifty-six times.
This occurs throughout the article. Why is the verse after "Lowell's character Hosea Biglow says in verse:" in WP:ITALICS? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:01, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I thought the article used spelled-out numbers throughout, which is certainly unusual but not against WP:MOSNUM#Numbers as figures or words. Midnight, what was your intent? Maralia (talk) 02:12, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Gee, don't give me too much credit; I doubt that I had any intention! It's likely I was just emulating the format or presentation of whatever source I was using at the time. Let me see how I can clean up the numbers. As far as The Biglow Papers in italics, I often see it that way (I can't say always_, possibly as an indication that this isn't quite the normal language (similar to the "foreign language words" noted as acceptable formatting under WP:ITALICS). --Midnightdreary (talk) 02:30, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Concerned
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 01:43, 4 October 2008 [25].
Germanium
- Nominator(s): Nergaal (talk) & Stone & WP Elements
Aside from a few finishing touches, I believe the article is ready to become featured. Many thanks to various users, including Itub, Mav, Edgar181, Axiosaurus, and Jimfbleak. Nergaal (talk) 07:01, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
question - Would it be possible to get an image other than Image:Lilit.jpg for the section, I would be happier if it didn't have trademark issues. Fasach Nua (talk) 08:03, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Is this one better? Image:Pet Flasche.JPG--Stone (talk) 09:05, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support and comments COI - I did the GA for this. It has been substantially improved since GA.
However, I share the concern about the Lilt bottle, especially as it can so easily be replaced by a image of a PET bottle with the label removed.jimfbleak (talk) 08:35, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- What makes http://elements.vanderkrogt.net/elem/ge.html a reliable source? Granted, it's not exactly contentious information..
- It lists all the references it uses at the bottom of the page. Nergaal (talk) 20:14, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- To determine the reliablity of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliabilty that needs to be demonstrated. Please see Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches for further detailed information. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:23, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It lists all the references it uses at the bottom of the page. Nergaal (talk) 20:14, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- gone
- gone
Please note the language where websites are in non-English languages.
- added language tags
Current ref 36 (Alpha Fusion Electrical Energy Valve) is lacking a publisher.
- publisher added
Current ref 47 (Brown, Jr. Robert D ...) is lacking a last access date
- added accessdate
Current ref 49 (Understanding Recordable & Rewritable DVD..) is lacking a publisher
- added publisher
Please spell out lesser known abbreviations in the footnotes (such as ORTEC, etc.)
- added full spelling to two abrevs
What makes http://kubton.com/fuzz_guide.html reliable?
- Otherwise sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 11:56, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ref 47 doesn't really need an access date IMO because it is an annual report, not a website, and is not subject to change (but it should probably be cited using a different template). I agree with the points about reliability; in general a more established reference can be used instead. I'm a bit dubious in particular about the statement that germanium is the purest element ever obtained, which is attributed to one of these websites. I'd rather see a more detailed reference that compares ultrapure Ge with ultrapure Si side by side so we can really know the difference and the time when the comparison was made. --Itub (talk) 12:26, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Another reason to give access dates is to allow for the use of webarchives in case the link goes dead later. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:29, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Has Accessdate now.--Stone (talk) 06:47, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Another reason to give access dates is to allow for the use of webarchives in case the link goes dead later. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:29, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ref 47 doesn't really need an access date IMO because it is an annual report, not a website, and is not subject to change (but it should probably be cited using a different template). I agree with the points about reliability; in general a more established reference can be used instead. I'm a bit dubious in particular about the statement that germanium is the purest element ever obtained, which is attributed to one of these websites. I'd rather see a more detailed reference that compares ultrapure Ge with ultrapure Si side by side so we can really know the difference and the time when the comparison was made. --Itub (talk) 12:26, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Almostsupport. The article is greatly improved since the last time I read it when it was at peer review (disclaimer: I've done a bit of copy-editing and fact-checking on this article myself). I think it is comprehensive and well referenced. The only caveats are the possibly unreliable references discussed above, and the usual minor inconsistencies in reference formatting (author names and such). --Itub (talk) 12:51, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I looked and found only one. Point them out an I get them! --Stone (talk) 06:47, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- There are still a couple that appear to have the "firstname lastname" format:
Gordon K. TealandMasanori Kaji(I'm not sure about the latter, but it doesn't have a comma like all the other names). There are also several entries without an author. While in some cases there is truly no known author, at least "SiGe History" has an author in the page footer if you follow the link, and"Germanium for Electronic Devices" says W.K. (I don't know if those may be the author's initials or mean something else, maybe would have to check the full text).I haven't checked the other "anonymous" sources. --Itub (talk) 08:38, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- There are still a couple that appear to have the "firstname lastname" format:
- Comments.
The second paragraph in the Applications/Optics subsection is strange. The first sentence should be moved to the third paragraph. The last sentence duplicates the first paragraph and should be moved there.As to IR detectors, Ge is used rarely now—usually in for wavelengthes longer than 20 μm and the Ge's badgap is not so different from that of Si (1.11 eV v. 0.67 eV). I think the article should provide more complete review of Ge IR detectors. You can use this paper. Ruslik (talk) 09:12, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment The pictures do not adhere to MOS. See here [26]Taprobanus (talk) 02:04, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Which one violates what rule?--Stone (talk) 06:47, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Maybe the guideline that says "Avoid sandwiching text between two images facing each other"? The layout looks OK if you have a big window, but not if it is say 800 px of less. --Itub (talk) 08:38, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- possibly the ones where information is in the label of the image but not in the text. perhaps move the organogermanim reaction in the uses section? Nergaal (talk) 16:15, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- For example Image:Renierit.JPG, is left aligned, they should all be right aligned when you begin a new section. Also dont sandwich material between two pics. Taprobanus (talk) 21:26, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- possibly the ones where information is in the label of the image but not in the text. perhaps move the organogermanim reaction in the uses section? Nergaal (talk) 16:15, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Maybe the guideline that says "Avoid sandwiching text between two images facing each other"? The layout looks OK if you have a big window, but not if it is say 800 px of less. --Itub (talk) 08:38, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment—It looks good, but unfortunately I have a few issues:
Why is it pure chloride GeCl4, rather than pure GeCl4 or germanium tetrachloride (as is used later)?- done
"first major use were": was or uses?"...was to be the first metallic material discovered to become superconducting..." seems awkward."...at red heat." is vague.- quote: Oberhalb Rotglut verbrennt es ( above redheat it burns....) Hollemann --Stone (talk) 20:38, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Then please either quote it or also give an equivalent temperature. Thanks.
Sorry to be persistent on this, but "red heat" just seems too vague. It's like saying an object is "heavy". There should be some reference that gives a solid temperature. Also, how is the reader to know that this is an old quote? It just looks like a statement of fact. By putting quotes around it and specifying the originator, the authority becomes clear.
- The silicon article mentions that it remains a semiconductor at higher temperatures than germanium. You might discuss that in the Characteristics section and state at what temperature germanium stops being a semiconductor.
- Does Figure 2.6.4 of this page help? It shows that the intrinsic carrier density of Germanium increases more slowly than Silicon for higher temperatures. But I'm not an expert so I'm unsure if I am reading it correctly.—RJH (talk) 19:46, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The silicon article mentions that it remains a semiconductor at higher temperatures than germanium. You might discuss that in the Characteristics section and state at what temperature germanium stops being a semiconductor.
The infobox lists the abundance of 74Ge as ~36%. The text says 72Ge is the most common at ~28%. These seem to conflict.
The article should explain that β+ is a positron and β- is an electron, rather than assuming reader knowledge.
- done
"...none is mined because of its germanium content" is ambiguous. (it can be interpreted as hazardous, &c.)- done
Please address the red links.- done
Except for germanates.- According to SandyGeorgia, delegate of the FA director, "there's nothing wrong with redlinks and their removal is not required for FA status, unless the link is to a topic that is unlikely to attain notability". That said, I'd rather just remove the link until someone decides to create the germanate article. --Itub (talk) 15:29, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There are several single-sentence paragraphs. Can these be expanded or merged?
Enhanced levels of Germanium are generated by the s-process in asymptotic giant branch stars, and this shows up in planetary nebulae.[27]
Germanium is being used in the search for dark matter.[28][29]
Germanium sesquioxide is a herbal remedy and has medical uses.- It's not herbal and if it is a remedy is questioned by a lot of articles. The peer reviewed journal mention it in the context of renal failure after excessive Germanium uptake and it is a minor use for germanium.--Stone (talk) 20:22, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well it seemed to receive scholarly attention in terms of its anti-tumor qualities. (bis (2-carboxyethylgermanium) sesquioxide: CEGS.) Yes it appears to be hazardous, but it was used in the 1970s as a dietary supplement.[30] It might be worth a mention even in a negative context.
- Conditional support - Pretty good per WIAFA, but RJH has some valid points. My support is conditional to RJH being satisfied. COI - I destubbed this article in 2002 and paid a bounty on this article to get it to GA. --mav (talk) 01:05, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Please see the WP:FAC instructions and remove the graphics. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:53, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Not done; OK, I did it myself. Will the nominator please do the cleanup on the FAC to help keep it readable? It is unclear who added the "not done" comments, as they are unsigned, and for me to step back through the diffs on every FAC is very time consuming. Please sign your entries, and avoid graphics. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:03, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments.
- The article does not look very aesthetically pleasing. There is major text squeeze in the history section, which IIRC is frowned upon.
- not sure how to solve this Nergaal (talk) 19:52, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps move or remove one of those images? ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk)
- not sure how to solve this Nergaal (talk) 19:52, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The lede seems a tad short at a quick glance - do you feel it appropriately summarizes the article?
- I was only checking if the lede covered everything. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk)
- The first note (note A) needs a source.
- For accessibility purposes, the temperature units in the article (which are in Celsius) should have a corresponding value in Fahrenheit (in parenthesis). Make sure other units (weight, length, volume, when applicable) are in both metric and imperial.
- Any need for the redlink germanates in the chemistry section? Is there another link it can go to? It's not a big deal, though.
- ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:26, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support -Excellent work. My only surprise, Mav's not here? ;) —Ceranthor (formerly LordSunday) · (Testify!) 17:04, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I paid a bounty to get this article improved while I was working on getting yttrium up to FA standards. :) --mav (talk) 23:14, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Notes; layout issues abound, and they are too non-standard for me to sort. Please go to the WP:ACCESS talk page and inquire if this layout is accessible and post the response back here. Also, resolve the non-reliable source: I am not a chemist, but a (map) historian much interested in the origin of names clearly does not meet WP:SPS. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:47, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I am not quite sure what you mean by layout issues, but I did post a request there. Nergaal (talk) 02:04, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- They'll know; I just need to know if a screen reader can process the way those images are laid out. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:05, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've replaced the reference. Nergaal (talk) 02:29, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You missed the last one in the footnotes 73 but we might substitute it by doi:10.1002/zaac.18960120138, when I have access to it.--Stone (talk) 22:05, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I am not quite sure what you mean by layout issues, but I did post a request there. Nergaal (talk) 02:04, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support on the prose. But why is "irritate" linked (to a DAB page, too)? "Nonetheless, none". Comma between "synthesized ranging". In generally, it's a little short on commas. Then again, I see commas that are unnecessary interruptions to the flow: "in the atmosphere of Jupiter,[39] and in some of the most distant stars." 1.66 ppm doesn't sound abundant. Tony (talk) 04:57, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- The one thing that strikes me as odd are the "see also" links in the Characteristics section, which goes to the "Germanium compounds" category page, and the "see also" link going to the "Germanium minerals" category. Is there some Chemistry WikiProject style guideline for elements articles? Is linking to categories this way a standard thing for such articles? Otherwise, perhaps there should be articles to link to (stub articles okay), rather than categories.
- Otherwise, the article looks good to me and is understandable to the layreader. I'm not a chemistry expert, so can't say whether or not the article is comprehensive, or if it's citing the best sources for this topic. --Aude (talk) 04:27, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support (conditional) but, you will have to fix these first - 1. The image with caption "Dmitri Mendeleev" is flush against a table. I would move the one image up and the other image down. I don't like images flush against tables because of potential formatting problems. 2. "Rinierite" and a table are under "Production". They sandwich in a subsection. This can be fixed many ways. One, remove the picture. Two, merge all of the sections under the heading "Production" since they have small paragraphs, and then move the table down so it no longer sandwiches text. 3. Remove the "see also" subheading and integrate it into the text somewhere if it is necessary. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:04, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Got rid of the "See also". Someone added it recently and I thought it was unnecessary, but then I forgot to remove it. As for the images, I'll leave that for someone with the necessary patience to play with it. Quite frankly, I think it is an insoluble problem--what looks perfect in my browser may look hideous in yours and vice versa. --Itub (talk) 14:10, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I gave you a sample version of image changes. With it, the Rinierite will need to be given a sentence in the text, otherwise, there is no in text reason for the image, which could confuse people. I hope this helps. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:29, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Got rid of the "See also". Someone added it recently and I thought it was unnecessary, but then I forgot to remove it. As for the images, I'll leave that for someone with the necessary patience to play with it. Quite frankly, I think it is an insoluble problem--what looks perfect in my browser may look hideous in yours and vice versa. --Itub (talk) 14:10, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Sri Lankan Tamil people
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 23:07, 25 October 2008 [31].
Homer Simpson
- Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Homer Simpson/archive1
- Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Homer Simpson/archive2 - withdrawn
- Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Homer Simpson/archive3
The last FAC had some outstanding opposition, but I believe that it has been addressed. The article has also been copyedited (huge thank you to Jackyd101 and Risker). You will notice that the article does not have an appearances section like other character articles, and the reason for this is simple. While a show like Lost has continuous storylines, The Simpsons has little or no continuity whatsoever, plus Homer has appeared in 422 (soon to be 423) episodes, so such a section would be a huge mess. Anyway, all concerns will be addressed by myself. -- Scorpion0422 23:00, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments -
Current ref 108 (What's the story with...) is lacking a publisher.
- Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:42, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments Support
I think "fictional main character" would make more sense than "main fictional character" in the first sentence.- Done.
"When Groening designed Homer, he put his initials into the character's hairline and ear: the hairline resembled an 'M', and the right ear resembled a 'G'. Groening decided that this would be too distracting though, and redesigned the ear to look normal." - I think I brought this up before, but when did Groening redesign Homer? If you really don't know, just say "Groening later decided that".- Well, his ear didn't look like a G when the first Ullman short aired, so I would assume that he did it in 1986 or 87.
The information on "Homer3" seems to have moved back to the Character development section. Why was this done? this was one of the reasons I opposed last time, as that episode in no way contributes to the development of the character (its non-cannon). That information should be included with the other animation information, which at the moment seems to be in creation.- I decided to start a "Design" section.
The stuff about Arabic Homer is still there but it still has no information about other translations. This was discussed on the talk page and there is a lot of information at Non-English versions of The Simpsons that can be researched.
Otherwise a very nice article which I feel I can support when the above are addressed.--Jackyd101 (talk) 17:20, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Notes, left-aligned images under third-level headings (WP:ACCESS). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:29, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support with comments after a small copyedit:
- "Homer Jay Simpson is a fictional main character in the animated television series The Simpsons…" Okay, from a policy standpoint, that is necessary, but from a reader's standpoint, I find that ridiculous.
- "The character received his first name from Groening's father" does not flow well with the rest of the paragraph. Maybe "He named the character after his father Homer Groening"?
- Done.
- A shorter dash should be used in reference #1 per WP:DASH
- Done.
- I suggest including more than one example for Castellaneta's other characters
- I'm not sure if that's necessary because Castellaneta is most identified as the voice of Homer. If this was the article for Mayor Quimby, then I would certainly add that he voiced Homer, but I think it's not entirely necessary here. The reason Grampa is noted is because he is mentioned extensively in the above sections.
- Too bad we do not have a picture next to "Castellaneta claims he is rarely recognized in public"
- Indeed, but I'm trying.
- "Homer has been cited as a bad influence on children, however; for example, in 2005 a survey conducted in the United Kingdom found that 59% of parents felt that Homer promoted an unhealthy lifestyle." The however-for-example is awkward; I suggest that "however" be moved to the beginning of the sentence
- Done.
- Is "in" better than "for" in "Homer has appeared, voiced by Castellaneta, for several other television shows"?
- Done.
- 'It has been described as "an entertaining little book for occasional reading"' Who said that? The publisher?
- I'm not sure, it's one of those pesky articles that doesn't list the author. I think it's a staff written article, should I mention that?
What an excellent (and humorous, e.g. "Homer has a low IQ of 55 which has variously been attributed to … and a crayon lodged in the frontal lobe of his brain") article, –thedemonhog talk • edits 05:23, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment the sourcing section of the fair use rationale for Image:Evolution of Homer.jpg appears to be inaccurate. Guest9999 (talk) 22:29, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support but why are half of the accessdates linked and the others are not? Nergaal (talk) 23:20, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- {{cite news}} has access dates unlinked just recently. Gary King (talk) 23:33, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. All said missing refs seem to be there now. Tezkag72 (talk) 21:43, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I know it is mentioned again with references in the Commendations section, but the last paragraph in the lead needs to be referenced. Also, Commendations is not a common term and it should be replaced with a better word. Support when these are fixed. Reywas92Talk 14:47, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- By the way, I got some support from former Simpsons executive producer Bill Oakley [32], just thought I'd point that out. -- Scorpion0422 17:43, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, very good article. It contains all refs needed, but is it okay the number of images?Tintor2 (talk) 20:32, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 01:20, 30 September 2008 [33].
Martin Keamy
- Nominator(s): –thedemonhog talk • edits
This good article from the Lost WikiProject is about a recurring character on the television show Lost. I thought that it might be too short, but then I remembered Troy McClure. This article will not get much longer, as Keamy was not a main character and he has been killed off. –thedemonhog talk • edits 08:49, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If you've looked at recent episode FACs they've been asking for some sort of caption/critical commentary/something for the infobox image, so it meets NFCC significance requirements. Giggy (talk) 09:04, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- An automatically displayed caption has been added and the roll-over caption is now longer. –thedemonhog talk • edits 20:37, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, Nice work. 85.191.41.117 (talk) 09:47, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support The article is completely comprehensive --Andrea 93 (msg) 10:18, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - The only improvement I can think of would be a free-use image of Kevin Durand, but that of course isn't necessary. Gran2 11:15, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Commment - The FU rationale for Image:Martin Keamy.png is nonsense Fasach Nua (talk) 11:32, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have expanded the rationale. –thedemonhog talk • edits 20:37, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- better! It may be worth wikilining Ben in the caption Fasach Nua (talk) 08:33, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:10, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support another great WP:LOST work, even if the character didn't last very long.. igordebraga ≠ 22:09, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 22:28, 10 January 2009 [34].
New York State Route 311
- Nominator(s): User:Juliancolton
- previous FAC (02:29, 2 October 2008)
A tad on the short side, but it is comprehensive. The article was upgraded to A-Class a couple months ago. –Juliancolton Happy Holidays 20:08, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The article did not go through the A-class review of USRD. --Rschen7754 (T C) 03:08, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- True; I reassessed it as GA-Class. –Juliancolton Happy Holidays 03:28, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Did it go through the A-Class review of WikiProject Hudson Valley?--SRX 16:59, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
- No, but HVNY doesn't have an organized A-Class assessment system yet. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 17:06, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- So how does it have an A-Class assessment in the banner on the talk page for that project?--SRX 17:23, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
- Mitchazenia (talk · contribs) assessed it as A-Class, in a manner similar to that of Start-, C-, or B-Class assessment. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 20:10, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- So how does it have an A-Class assessment in the banner on the talk page for that project?--SRX 17:23, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
- No, but HVNY doesn't have an organized A-Class assessment system yet. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 17:06, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Did it go through the A-Class review of WikiProject Hudson Valley?--SRX 16:59, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
Lead Comments
- It crosses NY 164 and NY 292 as it heads into the northwestern part of the county, finally bending east to reach its northern terminus at NY 22 just south of the Dutchess County line. - bending sounds awkward, how about curving?
- Part of modern-day Route 311 was originally the Philipstown Turnpike, a road built in 1815 to overcome a lack of transportation means when the Hudson River froze over during the winter months. - is over needed? Seems repetitive with during
- The turnpike was a large business center for the county, though was abandoned due to insufficient tolls to maintain it. - it would help if it was added between though and was
- Another section was constructed in the early 1900s from the Patterson Baptist Church near the modern-day intersection of Route 311 and Route 164 to the Village of Patterson, by a group of Italian immigrants. - I think if a comma was added before from, it would help the flow of the sentence--SRX 21:13, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
- Nice catches, done. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 21:21, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Route description comments
- Carmel Lake has a surface area of about 200 acres (81 ha), and is sits at 618 ft (188 m) in elevation. - is? You mean it? =)
- Done. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 00:24, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The road crosses into the town of Patterson and interchanges with Interstate 84. - how about adding then before crosses, since in the previous sentence it spoke about the river
- Fixed. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 00:24, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- NY 311 curves gradually northeast before turning almost due north to an intersection with NY 292 in the community of West Patterson. - is the due suppose to be there?
- Yes. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 00:24, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- In the hamlet of Patterson, an historic district exists along the route. - wouldn't it be a and not an?--SRX 00:11, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- This has been a longstanding issue within the 'grammar community', and despite the general rules of English, both "a history" and "an historic" are correct, if I recall correctly. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 00:24, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Confirmed –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 00:32, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Final comments
- In November 1901, when the Putnam County's Board of Supervisors hired an engineer to create plans for a new road that would run from the Westchester–Putnam County border into Dutchess County. - the when makes this an incomplete statement, remove
- After the Lloyd Lumber Company moved to a larger building along NY 311, the post office occupied the smaller structure. Both were situated on the east side of the New York Central tracks. - IMO, I think this would work better as a semi-colon.--SRX 02:04, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- All done. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 02:15, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - based on my review of the article, it meets WP:WIAFA. Its also an interesting read, despite its size.--SRX 02:45, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks. :) –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 03:13, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support: This is an interesting, well-researched article but I have a few nit-picks:
- It should say in the Lead that this route is in the United States.
- Here, Along the way, the route passes a number of historical sites I think "along the way" is redundant since we have "passes".
- I'm not sure about "transportation means" - but a the moment I can't think of any alternative accept "access".
- Instead of "Prior to" - can we have "before"?
- Here, where does the quotation end: One of the intentions of the turnpike was to "greatly promote the public good, as well contribute to their individual interest. However, the turnpike was eventually abandoned, because the tolls received were not sufficient to defray the expense of maintaining the road and associated bridges.
- Here, shouldn't the "while" be "and": Children were asked to participate in the filming by dressing in western or American Indian apparel, while girls were asked to dress as frontier women.
- Who is drafting whom here: By 1966, Putnam County's men began drafting for the Vietnam War. Should it be "began to be drafted into the armed forces to fight in the Vietnam War"?
- The sources look fine except number 11. It says "Journal", but should it be Journal of the Assembly of the State of New York? Graham. Graham Colm Talk 16:43, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. Thanks for the helpful comments and support. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 21:32, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments -
- As in the previous FAC, http://www.historicpatterson.org/index.php remains a concern, as it's a local historical society, and thus might be an unreliable source. I'm merely pointing it out for other reviewers to be aware of, and to make sure that nothing controversial is being sourced to it.
- Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:04, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm fairly certain that source is reliable, as it's run by the Town of Patterson. Also, that site lists its acknowledgments and resources, which includes the Putnam County Historian's Office, the Patterson Town Board, the Patterson Town Historian, etc. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 21:36, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support with minor comments
It passes by a Christian youth camp, and intersects with NY 164. - no commaLink to Phillipstown Turnpike?- Other than that, I'm pretty impressed. The prose is really good and the article is broad. --Rschen7754 (T C) 07:49, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. Thanks for the support and comments, –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 16:08, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on criterion 3
File:New York Route 311 map.png - This map needs a reliable source with which to verify its information per WP:IUP. All other images have verifiable licenses and adequate descriptions. Awadewit (talk) 03:35, 6 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Removed for now until I figure out how to fix it... –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 04:40, 6 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Removing the map doesn't really solve the problem, as you really need that map for the article. don't you?. Just keep it until you have the information. Surely you have a source that could work for this? You're writing an article on this road! Awadewit (talk) 04:45, 6 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, the map isn't particularly crucial to the article, and I didn't want it to hold up the FAC. Would Google Maps suffice as a reliable source for it? –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 04:48, 6 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Not crucial? Um, this is an article about a road. The map seems central to me. Another NY State FA used this source. Would that source your map? Awadewit (talk) 04:54, 6 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- All done, Awadewit. Julian, that ref that I added is the official reference.Mitch32(Go Syracuse) 11:12, 6 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support; looking at the above comments and reading the article, it seems it's ready. JonCatalán(Talk) 04:31, 10 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 03:08, 29 September 2008 [35].
Joseph Barbera
Influential American animator. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:26, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- As a note, a large chunk of this article appear to be cited to Joseph Barbera's autobiography. This is not wrong, per se, just something that other reviewers should be aware of and watch for unintential bias.
http://insidepulse.com/article_v3.php?contentid=63600 dealinks
- Otherwise sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:03, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Here's what I found upon reviewing this article: The article's done in the same format as the now-FA William Hanna, so I tried to keep that in mind, since I found some semantics that I didn't care too much for. The numbers after the citations for the book page numbers irk me for some reason. Granted if no one else has had issues with them then I won't worry about them. The sentence "He worked on cartoons such as Cubby Bear, and Rainbow Parades and also co-produced Tom and Jerry; who were a couple of boys, unrelated to his later cat-and-mouse series." feels run-on-ish. Or maybe it's just the comma after Cubby Bear, which is unnecessary (i'll remove it myself, no need to worry). The sentence "The two brought different skills to the company; Barbera was a skilled gag writer and sketch artist, while Hanna had a gift for timing, story construction, and recruiting top artists." feels like it needs a citation, though maybe I'm just being bureaucratic. It seems like the idea is cited in the legacy section, though not in those words. That being said, this was a really enjoyable read, not often I can read an article all the way through without a problem these days. My only concern(s) are quite minor, so I feel comfortable Supporting this for an FA. I think I put edit #50,000 to good use. Wizardman 16:18, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support
Comment- In the infobox, nationality is listed as Sicilian, but shouldn't it be American ? Wasn't he an American citizen ? Sicilian can be ethnic origin.Taprobanus (talk) 16:21, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]- I guess that depends on how you define nationality. I've seen other bios on Americans list their ethnic background that way. To make it clearer, I changed it to "Sicilian-American". Is that okay? — Rlevse • Talk • 16:29, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've struck out the comment and support the nominationTaprobanus (talk) 13:24, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I guess that depends on how you define nationality. I've seen other bios on Americans list their ethnic background that way. To make it clearer, I changed it to "Sicilian-American". Is that okay? — Rlevse • Talk • 16:29, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support.
Commentsby karanacs. You certainly got this one up to snuff quickly ;) A few small things:I think I would remove the sentence about his maternal grandmother. The article says that his parents were both of Sicilian descent and it seems a bit odd to me to hear about only one of his four grandparents.- rm'd and moved to talk page for the record
Any information on what Barbera did between the time that MGM closed them down and the time he began working with Hanna?- absolutely nothing. the period btwn MGM and H-B seems to have been VERY short and is called short-lived in Hanna's article. In Barbera's autobio he jumps from the MGM shutdown straight to the formation of H-B (pp 112-116 of the autobio), briefly mentioning Hanna's short try that other company. Barbera seems to have been unemployed in the interim, but doesn't come out and say so. Is not mentioning this speculation the best way to go for the Barbera article?
- Is there any useful information on Barbera's social circles? It is mentioned twice in the article that he enjoyed high society, and I wondered if there was anything else that would be useful to include to help us learn more about his character.
- he seems to have enjoyed dining out, drinking, parties, and hanging out with Hollywood celebs. Is this what you're loooking for?
- I just wondered if there were any anecdotes that might spice up the article a bit.
- I'll look for something...added bit on Zsa Zsa
- I just wondered if there were any anecdotes that might spice up the article a bit.
- he seems to have enjoyed dining out, drinking, parties, and hanging out with Hollywood celebs. Is this what you're loooking for?
Karanacs (talk) 00:35, 24 September 2008 (UTC) Karanacs (talk) 21:24, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I do agree with Wizardman that the referencing style is a bit awkward; it's a little rough on the eyes. By the way, I'd recommend that his nationality be listed as American, not Sicilian-American. Not to split hairs here, but he wasn't from Sicily, he was from the U.S. --Midnightdreary (talk) 18:31, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Very nice, especially with Hanna being FA. Sumoeagle179 (talk) 10:25, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Notes: I'm not sure where the guideline is or if it exists, but I don't think that method of providing the pronunciation in the lead is the way it's done. I don't know where you go about finding out about IPA pronunciation. Please watch the endashes in infoboxes: I fixed them. I agree the citation method is very hard on the eyes, but not against guidelines; more importantly, it doesn't use correct endashes on page ranges (if this is an issue on past FAs that use this citation method, you can ask User:Brighterorange to run his script on all of them). I'll continue reading/commenting later: I'm getting an unacceptable and absurd amount of Wikimedia Foundation errors that prevent me from doing anything productive, for the third day. There's a duplicate ref (pls make sure named refs are used correctly, see Whitworth, and the page number is listed incorrectly there as a plural, and why is the page number formatting on that citation different than on others, inconsistent). Sustained attention to citation cleanup is needed here. I can't make any progress because of the Wikimedia Foundation errors. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:09, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Some comments:
- TV.com is a tertiary source and doesn't meet WP:V.
- A press release from Time Warner isn't a neutral source and is inappropriate; so is WireImage (OR-ish). The citations to them can be replaced by "The Acadeny of Television Arts & Sciences on Wednesday unveiled a 1,200-pound bronze wall sculpture, dedicated to animators and show creators Joseph Barbera and the late William Hanna, at its Hall of Fame Plaza in North Hollywood." in the March 17, 2005 edition of Daily Variety.
- {{rp}} kills the readability of the text. I'd really love it if you used parenthetical refs or Harvard refs like I'm doing here.
- The prose seems a bit choppy to me, especially with a lot of paragraphs being only three sentences or so. Perhaps it's the subconscious effect of those {{rp}}s all over the place. I'll print it out sans refs and give it another read.
- What's up with the links to Google Books in the references? I've never seen that before - is this commonplace and it's just that I'm just out of touch? :/
east718 // talk // email // 05:25, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Google books simply give the reader an easy way to read and verify the ref. RP is a valid format. Fixed the TW/Wireimage ref issue. More later. — Rlevse • Talk • 10:01, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed TV.com ref. If you have specific suggestions on the prose, please let me know. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:44, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I suppose you're right about gbooks - it must have slipped my mind that it's public. Usually, I avoid linking to subscription repositories such as JSTOR, since the links will be of use to only a small number of people. I also appreciate that {{rp}} is a valid format, but you have to appreciate that it does hurt the readability. Maybe it's just me, but I find that "Barbera was an influential American animator (Doe 17; Roe 22). Lorem ipsum..." flows much better than "Barbera was an influential American animator.[21]:17 [22]:22 Lorem ipsum..." - this in addition to {{rp}} being an invented, non-standard and generally unintuitive citation system. Just to show that the problem exists, I printed out the page without the references and the prose read great. east718 // talk // email // 17:44, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed TV.com ref. If you have specific suggestions on the prose, please let me know. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:44, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I appreciate your concern with RP but why do those numbers interfere with readability and not footnote numbers? They're all numbers and right beside each other. — Rlevse • Talk • 17:52, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, that's the part that's bedeviling me... I know that the page reads better without them, but not why. :P Perhaps I'm alone in this though. I wouldn't be willing to go through the grunt work of flipping the entire citation format of the article because of a half-hearted objection like mine, either. east718 // talk // email // 17:59, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hmm. Fair enough. Interesting too that no one complained about RP during William Hanna's FAC run. BTW, I can't stand Harvard format. — Rlevse • Talk • 18:03, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Random, drive-by comment, but two people "complained" about RP on Hanna's talk page before its FAC nom, so it hasn't exactly been uncontested. The format's nonstandard, nonacademic structure bothers me. María (habla conmigo) 13:15, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm going to go on record and say I agree that this referencing system is really truly horrible and seriously impedes readability. Not against any guideline, though. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:48, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Random, drive-by comment, but two people "complained" about RP on Hanna's talk page before its FAC nom, so it hasn't exactly been uncontested. The format's nonstandard, nonacademic structure bothers me. María (habla conmigo) 13:15, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hmm. Fair enough. Interesting too that no one complained about RP during William Hanna's FAC run. BTW, I can't stand Harvard format. — Rlevse • Talk • 18:03, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, that's the part that's bedeviling me... I know that the page reads better without them, but not why. :P Perhaps I'm alone in this though. I wouldn't be willing to go through the grunt work of flipping the entire citation format of the article because of a half-hearted objection like mine, either. east718 // talk // email // 17:59, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Google books simply give the reader an easy way to read and verify the ref. RP is a valid format. Fixed the TW/Wireimage ref issue. More later. — Rlevse • Talk • 10:01, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 01:20, 30 September 2008 [36].
Manchester Bolton & Bury Canal
- Nominator(s): Parrot of Doom (talk)
- previous FAC (19:08, 7 September 2008)
I'm nominating this article for a second time because I believe it gives the reader an excellent impression of the history, planning, construction, use, demise and restoration of the canal. I have used authoritative sources both in print and online format, and have tried to be as balanced and informative as I possibly can be, without going into too much detail. I have addressed all the issues revealed in the first nomination. Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:22, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Image check
IMO, Image:Mbbcnr seal 1831.png is PD-Old, as its a derivative works of a logo last published before 1923(based on the logo).
Other then that, all sources, licenses, descriptions look good. As a small comment, be consistent with tenses, e.g. The Manchester Bolton & Bury Canal is a disused canal...The canal was... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ilikepie2221 (talk • contribs) 19:49, 20 September 2008Fixed. Pie is good (Apple is the best) 23:30, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Have changed that licence. Tense - The canal 'was' a certain length, but is 'now' a different length as parts are infilled/demolished. As more is restored, it will become longer but there are sections that are impossible to restore so it will always be 'was x miles long' and 'is now x-y miles long'. Parrot of Doom (talk) 10:24, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- http://michaelchase.fotopic.net/c1489894.html I'm still unclear if using pictures in this form as a source is within guidelines.
Current ref 15 (Corbett, John ..) still needs a page number.
- Otherwise sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:59, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - Looks pretty nice. I performed the GAN review. ;) Not my favorite FA if passed but meets the criteria pretty well. —Sunday | Speak 20:30, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support
Minor quibbles: I'm close to support.[37] — Preceding unsigned comment added by DrKiernan (talk • contribs) 03:16, 24 September 2008
- I cannot decipher whose support this is without stepping back through the diffs; please do so and attach an {{unsigned}} template and a diff. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:03, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You could consider re-wording "The canal is currently navigable as far as East Ordsall Lane, in Salford." along the lines of "as of such-and-such date" or "by such-and-such date" rather than "currently". Same applies to "Current status", which could be renamed "Status as of 2008".
- I'm very much on top of what is happening on the canal and update things regularly. As information becomes outdated I can change the tense. I'd very much prefer to keep things the way they currently are in that respect. Things aren't happening all that quickly, it will likely be a few years before another section becomes navigable. Parrot of Doom (talk) 01:10, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I can't see the rationale for the sequence in the list of notable subscribers. Is it possible to arrange this by value?
- The names are currently in order as they appeared on the original document - I'd rather not re-arrange them as this may distort an aspect of how and when certain people subscribed to the scheme, but I will insert a reference explaining this if acceptable? Please let me know what you think. Parrot of Doom (talk) 01:10, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have inserted such a reference, found on the header of the table concerned. Parrot of Doom (talk) 15:32, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The names are currently in order as they appeared on the original document - I'd rather not re-arrange them as this may distort an aspect of how and when certain people subscribed to the scheme, but I will insert a reference explaining this if acceptable? Please let me know what you think. Parrot of Doom (talk) 01:10, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In the paragraph on the report entitled "A Statement of the Situation", can the dimensions/measurements be standardised the same as the rest of the article (so "5 feet (1.5 m) (" instead of "five feet")?
- Done Parrot of Doom (talk) 01:10, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Image:Mbbcnr seal 1831.png: I'm not sure about the creative colors. Wouldn't it be more accurate to keep it monochrome and admit we don't know if colors were employed? DrKiernan (talk) 12:13, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The original was a seal, which of course would be monochrome. I'm unsure what the usual practice is here but the lettering is a little difficult to read in monochrome. Would it be acceptable to include a short note explaining this, in the image description (when clicked)? Parrot of Doom (talk) 01:10, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- On second thought you're quite right - I'll change it tomorrow morning Parrot of Doom (talk) 02:16, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The original was a seal, which of course would be monochrome. I'm unsure what the usual practice is here but the lettering is a little difficult to read in monochrome. Would it be acceptable to include a short note explaining this, in the image description (when clicked)? Parrot of Doom (talk) 01:10, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments
- In lead, "The canal was <distance> long, and its entrance is... " sounds really odd. Some kind of qualification is needed after 'long', such as "when fully open" or "when operating commercially", plus some indication of why it is no longer that length and/or what it is now, eg "but sections have fallen into disuse since closure". Also, moving "its entrance is..." to a separate sentence will lessen the force of the collision between the tenses.
- I've made some changes, see what you think. The only bit I struggled with was 'officially abandoned in 1961' - I wanted to include 'in its entirety' but felt that it would be harder to read. Parrot of Doom (talk) 13:52, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Having 'Canal Committee' as a sub-heading breaks-up the section in a strange way. If the committee members were noted in a table, as for the subscribers -- with 'Canal Committee' becoming the table title rather than a heading -- it would not matter that there are no further headings before 'Traffic'. As it currently stands, however, all details of the construction are part of the section labelled "Canal Committee". An alternative would be to add another heading (such as "Construction") further down, but it is not clear to me where this would be best placed.
- have removed that heading - it was a left over part of an older revision Parrot of Doom (talk) 13:52, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Article ought to explain why there is no comma in the title! (Required, after 'Manchester', surely??)
- Discussed in the talk page, the name of the canal never seems to be consistent - throughout history in many articles and books it has different names. The canal society is most knowledgeable on this, and one of the most authoritative books on the canal (V I Tomlinson) also calls it 'manchester bolton & bury', so that's what we settled on :) Parrot of Doom (talk) 13:52, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If the canal had multiple names, there is justification in including a section that covers this -- and then you can mention why there's no comma! The talk page mainly covers the use of '&' vs 'and'; commas were not (until now) mentioned. EdJogg (talk) 14:34, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I can certainly do that, but I'm rather at a loss on where in the article to put such information... :) Parrot of Doom (talk) 17:49, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, if there's enough bulk it could have its own section (before 'Breaches'?), otherwise I would suggest you integrate it into the existing history. At the same time you could check that all the names are adequately referenced. (I'm not trying to being awkward, but, for example, the 'seal' image clearly shows "Manchester, Bolton and Bury......" EdJogg (talk) 00:46, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I doubt there is enough information to write anything meaningful really. All I'd be able to add is that 'x book calls it this', 'y book calls it that'...they're all just variations on a theme. Most of the older books call it 'manchester, bolton and bury canal' which was the original title of the article, however the railway is called 'manchester, bolton & bury...', the society is 'manchester bolton & bury', locally its known as the 'bolton canal' or 'bury canal' or 'bury-bolton canal' (nobody ever really mentions the salford arm). I could write something but I don't feel it would add much to the article, as I don't know (and I'm reasonably sure that nobody else really knows) why it's name has changed. Even the names of the features change, 'nob end locks' is sometimes called 'prestolee locks', 'hall lane aqueduct' was originally 'farnworth aqueduct' - all these are fact, but why, I can't explain as I've found nothing anywhere which attempts to. What I do know is that more knowledgeable members of the society (Paul Hindle for instance) recommend the current name, and also the VI Tomlinson book (which uses 'and' rather than '&'), which is far more detailed than any other source. Perhaps I should just insert a <ref>...name subject to variations...</ref> somewhere in the lead, and hope to expand upon it later? Another complication is that 'Manchester' is actually 'Salford'! Parrot of Doom (talk) 19:20, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, if there's enough bulk it could have its own section (before 'Breaches'?), otherwise I would suggest you integrate it into the existing history. At the same time you could check that all the names are adequately referenced. (I'm not trying to being awkward, but, for example, the 'seal' image clearly shows "Manchester, Bolton and Bury......" EdJogg (talk) 00:46, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I can certainly do that, but I'm rather at a loss on where in the article to put such information... :) Parrot of Doom (talk) 17:49, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If the canal had multiple names, there is justification in including a section that covers this -- and then you can mention why there's no comma! The talk page mainly covers the use of '&' vs 'and'; commas were not (until now) mentioned. EdJogg (talk) 14:34, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- (Will continue proof-reading in due course - only reached 'Transport' so far...)
- Support,
pending full review(what's eerie is that this shot of the canal looks almost identical to a portion of the C&O Canal, but I digress):- Forgive my ignorance, but what the hell is a furlong, and wouldn't it make more sense to just use feet?
- Originally the furlong was wikilinked, but then I inserted it into a convert template and I do not know how to wikilink it within that template. I used furlong because that was the original design specification of the canal at the time of construction, and it's use should definitely be kept. Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:47, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Could you just hand-paste the conversion and wikilink without the template, then?
- Wikipedia:Mos#Conversions says nothing about mandatory use of the template, so I've done just what you suggest. Parrot of Doom (talk) 22:26, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Could you just hand-paste the conversion and wikilink without the template, then?
"to climb to the summit" - if it's climbing a summit, that suggests a mountain of some sort. Can't you just say to get over the elevation changer or summat'?
- a summit can mean several things, not just a mountain, in this instance the summit is Route summit so I have now wikilinked that. Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:47, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if this is possible at all, but could we get monetary exchange for the pounds? It might be infeasible, I just get tired of reading history books talking about sums in pounds and me not knowing jack about whether it's a lot or a little :/
- I don't know what the rules say about this. I have no problem with it, but it is very obviously a British article so uk sterling should be expected. I have wikilinked the first instance of the '£' sign. Another issue is that of history - to correctly translate the value, I would need to know the exchange rate of the currencies at the time of expenditure, or I'm not sure it would make any sense as I suspect that the dollar at the time may have been much weaker than the pound - although that is a guess.
- Eh, scratch it, I really don't want to make you go through the hassle of trying to find conversions.
- Personal preference again, but {{Infobox Canal}} wastes a tremendous amount of space listing construction start/stop dates seperately, et al. Could that stuff be merged to a single line?
- Its a Wikipedia:WikiProject UK Waterways feature which is slowly being introduced to all UK canal articles, its designed to quickly list the major technical aspects of each canal. Its a new design only a few weeks old, if others agree I have no issue deleting some of the text - but you should be aware that on the last FAC review I was asked to expand upon this very information. Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:47, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll admit I am a tad sensitive about "infobox cruft", but my complain isn't with the info as much as the presentation.Date Completed and date of first use, for example, could just be made into 'Years of operation', and the names could be shortened to avoid whitespace; for example 'Completion' instead of 'Date completed'.
- I'll have a play around with this tomorrow and see what I can do to reduce the space used. Its tricky because the entirety of the canal did not close at the same time - it closed in stages, so years of operation would be too ambiguous. Parrot of Doom (talk) 22:26, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- How does this look? Parrot of Doom (talk) 16:55, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Better. I doubt I will ever be happy with it :P Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 18:16, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- How does this look? Parrot of Doom (talk) 16:55, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll have a play around with this tomorrow and see what I can do to reduce the space used. Its tricky because the entirety of the canal did not close at the same time - it closed in stages, so years of operation would be too ambiguous. Parrot of Doom (talk) 22:26, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll admit I am a tad sensitive about "infobox cruft", but my complain isn't with the info as much as the presentation.Date Completed and date of first use, for example, could just be made into 'Years of operation', and the names could be shortened to avoid whitespace; for example 'Completion' instead of 'Date completed'.
"A combination of factors, including financial unrest and war," and "including the end of the American Revolutionary War,"... this part needs to be spelt out. When you first talk about war, I was thinking domestically. Perhaps say foreign war so we know why a conflict on the other side of the ocean affected a british canal?
- I'm not sure it was a 'foreign' war. It was a war in which the British were involved - I don't know the definitions in that respect. American_Revolutionary_War#Financial_costs gives details of the financial issues at the time. I have edited this paragraph to help. Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:47, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"For local industries along the route of the proposed canal that relied on water" It's hinted at, but never stated, that these people were afraid that their small running water supplies would be drawn dry by the canal, correct? Can you say that in prose?
- Certainly, done. Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:47, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I did some slight grammar stuff, check to make sure I didn't change any meaning.
- I modified 'might tap' to 'might also use' Parrot of Doom (talk) 22:26, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I did some slight grammar stuff, check to make sure I didn't change any meaning.
- "on 26 July, 27 July, 28 July, and 29 July" - just say "took place between 26 July and 29 July"?
- I think that would make it more ambiguous, unless it read "took place on each day between the dates of 26 July and 29 July" - I think to list each date separately works better, but am happy to see what others think about this. Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:47, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"contained several boxes filled with coal" no need of the 'several' language, just state how many there were if possible or just axe it entirely.
- I have replaced 'several' with 'rows of' Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:47, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"so an icebreaker was used to break up the ice" well that just sounds like it's tripping over itself.
- I have reworded this accordingly Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:47, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"was ordered piped by the Ministry of Transport to reduce the risk of bomb damage to the canal" huh? bomb damage? you mean German bombs or what?
- I have inserted 'WW2' Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:47, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is the news item in "Breaches" so important to be quoted in its entirety?
- The 1936 breach is, besides the closure of the mines around the canal, the event that most affected the ability of the canal to make a profit. It is a massive landslip (it has to be seen to be believed) and a significant barrier to restoration. It was a reasonable size story at the time, reported both locally and nationally, and I feel that the history of the canal hinges on this single event, which basically cut all three arms away from oneanother. Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:47, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
--Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 14:28, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok I have gone through and struck what has been resolved. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 22:00, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok that takes care of my concerns. Just try and make the infobox smaller if you can :) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 22:33, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok I have gone through and struck what has been resolved. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 22:00, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Glad you're happy with the changes :) I will have a look at the box tomorrow. Its been a 16 hour day at work and my bed calls... Parrot of Doom (talk) 22:52, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 03:08, 29 September 2008 [38].
AMX-30E
- JonCatalán(Talk)
- previous FAC (22:29, 6 September 2008)
I'm renominating this for FA. Unfortunately, at the end of the first nomination I had lost interest in continuing writing for Wikipedia, but I seemed to have rekindled my interest. I fixed the issues I thought were pertinent from the last FAC; some issues I didn't "resolve", since I didn't feel that they were correct. But, if they are brought up again this time I will respond. I have also done some copyediting with the article, and will continue to do so as the FAC continues. Thanks! JonCatalán(Talk) 21:27, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from lead by Giggy
- I don't particularly like having a redlink in the first sentence... can you create it or remove the link?
- "but also to reduce Spain's reliance on American equipment in its army" - "but also" --> "and"?
- "Although the first AMX-30 tanks were acquired from France in 1970, production in Spain commenced in 1974 and ended in 1983." - maybe remove the "Although" and put a semicolon after "1970"
- "It was Spain's first mass produced tank and developed the country's industry to the point where the government felt it could produce a tank on its own and open bidding for the future Lince tank in 1985, and offered Santa Bárbara Sistemas the experience which led to the production of the Leopard 2E in late 2003" - run on sentence. The two "ands" make it even more clunky. Needs splitting and rewording. Also, should "open" be "opened"?
Giggy (talk) 01:10, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks; I made the last three changes, and I will open an article on Santa Bárbara Sistemas tomorrow, when I have more time. JonCatalán(Talk) 01:39, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Why is it "Santa Bárbara Sistemas" and not Sistemas Santa Bárbara or Empresa Santa Bárbara? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:12, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, I believe that the company originally went by the name of Empresa Nacional Santa Bárbara, but when it was privatized at some point after the death of Franco it renamed itself to Santa Bárbara Sistemas. They merged with General Dynamics and are now known as General Dynamics Santa Bárbara Sistemas (what the article should probably be called, when I create it). Unfortunately, the company's website which has a short history of itself doesn't really specify these dates - http://www.gdsbs.com/web/frame.asp . I know when the company merged, but I'd need to scour through source material I have to see if the first name change date is mentioned anywhere. JonCatalán(Talk) 01:40, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, but one comment: do you have the names of the other companies that were involved in the production of the tank? It's mentioned in the lead section, but I don't see it anywhere elaborated on. That's my only gripe. Octane [improve me?] 23.09.08 1802 (UTC)
- Second paragraph of the "production" section. :) JonCatalán(Talk) 18:57, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment A well written and referenced article, as always. However, in my opinion the article (especially the introduction) is a bit boring to pass criterion 1a. For example, the introduction focuses on the production history of the tank and Spanish industrial capacity. Compare with Panzer I introduction that focuses on combat history and performance characteristics - firepower, protection & mobility. Maybe the AMX-30E did not see combat (if so, this should be stated), but there is a performance comparison with the Leopard but this section was not very clear to me (relevance of the T-55?) and should be in the intro, in my opinion. I hope this helps to brings this to FA. Dhatfield (talk) 22:46, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks; I expanded the introduction a bit, and I hope it looks better now. I didn't delve too deep into the comparison between the AMX-30 and the Leopard 1, but I did mention that one was chosen over the other. In regards to the mention of the T-55, I changed it to "contemporary tank" since that is also supported by the text that it references. Hopefully, that sentence is a bit clearer and more relevant, now. JonCatalán(Talk) 02:27, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support per above comments (took another look atnd it all seemed good). Giggy (talk) 02:26, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
leaningsupport, some comments:- Still think you should put a short explanatory tag next to the "Designed/Produced 1974" part of the infobox, as it clashes with the other dates given. Just say (Spanish production) or something like that.
- "However, both trade deals fell through" - I'm not sure if putting qualifiers at the beginning of a sentence is bad or not, but it sounds bad. Just state "Both trade deals fell through", and perhaps follow up with a statement that no AMXs are still in service (or if they still are?) to cap the lead?
- "By 1960" - change to "In", as "by" suggests some sort of tank plan was in effect to phase in these vehicles, but that's not here or there.
- "This agreement
alsolaid" - redundancy - "Prior to the end of production of the first batch, on 27 March 1979" to "On 27 March 1979, prior to the end of production of the first batch, [...]"
- "...without having to go through GIAT" - informal language. Reword to "without having to consult with GIAT" or whatever more formal term you want.
- "Ultimately, a mixed solution named Tecnología Santa Bárbara-Bazán (Santa Bárbara-Bazán Technology) (or TSB) was chosen." Is this the name of the solution or the name of a company?
- "However, the deal was canceled after José María Aznar was replaced by José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero as president of Spain—to seal the decision, the new Spanish government declared that Spain didn't even have enough AMX-30EM2s in working condition to sell to Colombia." Somewhat contradictory language used here. Perhaps just cut the "to seal the decision".
--Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 14:02, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Everything should be done. I tweaked the infobox, although I don't think it looks good, but I agree that it might be slightly confusing when the text says that France issued the first AMX-30Es in 1970. As the sentence says, Tecnología Santa Bárbara-Bazán was the name of the modernization package. Other than that, it should all be done. Thanks! JonCatalán(Talk) 00:10, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 01:20, 30 September 2008 [39].
Hurricane Dean
The first thing you will notice about this article is that it is long. Shortly thereafter I hope that you will be electrified by brilliant prose, and quickly return to support this nomination. In seriousness, I know that even after two peer reviews a 100KB+ article will have a few spelling and grammar errors. Don't be afraid to correct the little errors before bringing the big ones here for discussion. In my experience, FAC-nom discussions increase exponentially with article size, so this should be quite a doozie. Plasticup T/C 01:02, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose, hurricane article. Strong oppose, long hurricane article. Image check: all images have author/license/sources; one thing though, could you put the information in Image:Costa maya from cruise ship.jpg in a template like the others? -Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 01:14, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Its licensing information is already given using the {{GFDL-self}} template. As for your oppose, can you explain how the article's topic can be grounds for opposition? And I would also like you to elaborate on your concerns about its length. Hurricane Dean was one of the most powerful storms ever in the Atlantic Ocean, and I cannot imagine a comprehensive article being much shorter than this. Plasticup T/C 01:20, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- He was joking about the length. :) –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:21, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- David, please stop the joke opposes; they could be offputting for subsequent reviewers, who might not see the joke, and risk upsetting a nominator some day. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:33, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well you're no fun. Look out, everyone, here comes the Fun Police. :P Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 03:01, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I can see where you are coming from, but when I first read your edit I certainly wasn't laughing. For those not in the know it comes off a little rude. I know that is not your intent, but it might be something to consider. Plasticup T/C 05:35, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Meh. David's just jealous at all of our FACs. :P –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 17:50, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I can see where you are coming from, but when I first read your edit I certainly wasn't laughing. For those not in the know it comes off a little rude. I know that is not your intent, but it might be something to consider. Plasticup T/C 05:35, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well you're no fun. Look out, everyone, here comes the Fun Police. :P Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 03:01, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Its licensing information is already given using the {{GFDL-self}} template. As for your oppose, can you explain how the article's topic can be grounds for opposition? And I would also like you to elaborate on your concerns about its length. Hurricane Dean was one of the most powerful storms ever in the Atlantic Ocean, and I cannot imagine a comprehensive article being much shorter than this. Plasticup T/C 01:20, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I went through and only found a couple of typos. However, I'm concerned about comprehensiveness. Mexico should have more impact, as it took the brunt of the hurricane. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:22, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You would think so at first, but the Cat 5 landfall was in an unpopulated area. Most of the damage came from the second (Cat 2) landfall. Damages were much worse in Martinique and Jamaica. See the Impact table for figures. There is also an article dedicated to Effects of Hurricane Dean in Mexico. Plasticup T/C 01:55, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Normally, I fix the rare and sporadic WP:ACCESSIBILITY issues that appear when I first glance at every new FAC;
there are quite a few here though, so I'll leave that task to the regular editors. Please have a look at the order of items as they should appear in the lead and in body sections.(By the way, WP:LEAD and WP:LAYOUT are part of WP:WIAGA, so in theory, GAs shouldn't be appearing at FAC with WP:ACCESSIBILITY issues.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:31, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have re-written the lead and overhauled the style of the "Impact" table. I don't see any problems with images squeezing text, inappropriate text markup, lists, galleries, foreign languages, overlinking, section headings, or the other common accessibility failures. Did you have anything else in mind? Plasticup T/C 02:58, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Read the sections about Structure on WP:ACCESSIBILITY; there is a preferred order on images, templates, etc., both in the lead and in the body. This is so readers who use screen readers can easily negotiate the article. These are also part of WP:LEAD and WP:LAYOUT. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:45, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have read them and I still do not see any lead or layout errors. Plasticup T/C 15:38, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Did you access the two sample edits I left? The structure of the lead and of each section (the order of templates, images, cleanup dab and maintenance templates, etc.) is specified in WP:ACCESS so that readers who use screen readers can easily access our articles. I did some of it; you need to check that the elements in each section are ordered per ACCESS. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:35, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ah, I see. I moved a couple more {{main}} templates to the tops of their sections, which should account for all of them. Sorry for being so dense; I have never seen these standards before. Plasticup T/C 04:12, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Struck; better now. I'm unsure why editors aren't aware of WP:ACCESSIBILITY, since LEAD and LAYOUT are even part of WP:WIAGA, but these keep slipping through. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:21, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ah, I see. I moved a couple more {{main}} templates to the tops of their sections, which should account for all of them. Sorry for being so dense; I have never seen these standards before. Plasticup T/C 04:12, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Did you access the two sample edits I left? The structure of the lead and of each section (the order of templates, images, cleanup dab and maintenance templates, etc.) is specified in WP:ACCESS so that readers who use screen readers can easily access our articles. I did some of it; you need to check that the elements in each section are ordered per ACCESS. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:35, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have read them and I still do not see any lead or layout errors. Plasticup T/C 15:38, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Read the sections about Structure on WP:ACCESSIBILITY; there is a preferred order on images, templates, etc., both in the lead and in the body. This is so readers who use screen readers can easily negotiate the article. These are also part of WP:LEAD and WP:LAYOUT. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:45, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have re-written the lead and overhauled the style of the "Impact" table. I don't see any problems with images squeezing text, inappropriate text markup, lists, galleries, foreign languages, overlinking, section headings, or the other common accessibility failures. Did you have anything else in mind? Plasticup T/C 02:58, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support! Now this is a proper hurricane article! Probably the best on Wikipedia. I'm sick and tired of seeing similar hurricanes have articles which are about 2 or 3 medium sized sections long and lack any in depth aftermath media or information etc. This one is great, looks like a great research tool and certainly up to FA standards. Language looks fine as well, and it is nicely referenced with consideration. Well done. Domiy (talk) 00:04, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well then feel free to comment on those which you feel lack such breadth and coverage. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 00:21, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Similar hurricane articles? Right, a tropical storm which caused zero disturbance at either land or sea is infinitely similar to one of the most powerful Atlantic hurricanes in history. Nousernamesleft (talk) 02:49, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
Please spell out abbreviations when they are first used in the references (NOAA, EQECAT, CDERA, CONAGUA, JIS, etc. BBC isn't one that needs to be spelled out, nor is CNN).
- Caribbean Disaster Emergency Response Agency (CDERA) is already spelled out when it first appears in the prose and EQECAT is the name of the company. I will spell out the others, but I believe that it is acceptable (even encouraged) to use common abbreviation in citations where you might not in the prose. Plasticup T/C 15:38, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think the problem here is defining "common", or "well-known". While CDERA might be well known in the disaster relief community, it's probably not well known outside there. Same deal for NOAA, most folks IN the US wouldn't know what it was, much less outside the US. I always figure it's better to err on the side of "too much information" than "too little". Does that explain where I was coming from a bit better? Ealdgyth - Talk 17:09, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Caribbean Disaster Emergency Response Agency (CDERA) is already spelled out when it first appears in the prose and EQECAT is the name of the company. I will spell out the others, but I believe that it is acceptable (even encouraged) to use common abbreviation in citations where you might not in the prose. Plasticup T/C 15:38, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Current ref 65 (Staff wrtier "Jamaica alert") lacks a last access date.
Current ref 104 (HOward Campbell) is lacking a publisher
What makes http://www.caribbean360.com/index.html a reliable site?
Current 133 is lacking a publisher and last access date.
- Comments Checking sources for Ealdgyth, the checker is back up.
- All of the links to afp.com are down.
- http://www.milenio.com/index.php/2007/08/18/108576/ is dead.
- http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWFiles2007.nsf/FilesByRWDocUnidFilename/C94B2E6F0580A9E64925734200064866Full_Report.pdf/$File/Full_Report.pdfHTTP/1.1 404 Not Found is dead.
- http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWFiles2007.nsf/FilesByRWDocUnidFilename/C94B2E6F0580A9E64925734200064866Full_Report.pdf/$File/Full_Report.pdfHTTP/1.1 404 Not Found is dead.
- Several others that have been moved, have internal problems, or require registration.
–Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 17:49, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, they are all fixed/updated/archived. The link-checker tool show a couple failures, but that it because it checks both the original url and the archived version. Every web citation points to a valid source. Plasticup T/C 01:31, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Looks good, thanks –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:33, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That's not the case, the article has duplicate references all with the same name only the first one of which actually has the archived url. So it doesn't remove the duplicate named reference and checks all references. — Dispenser 14:39, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, they are all fixed/updated/archived. The link-checker tool show a couple failures, but that it because it checks both the original url and the archived version. Every web citation points to a valid source. Plasticup T/C 01:31, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Preemptive support - I was shocked at the length of the article. Then I was electrified by the brilliant prose and came back here to support. ;) In all seriousness, the prose was fairly good at a glance. Some general things to watch out for:
- Long, winding, awkward sentences - for example, the second sentence was rather hard for me to understand.
- Use of "some". I don't mean get rid of every instance, that would be hopelessly silly, but in some instances (pun intended), it's simply unnecessary.
It's late here; I'll take a more in-depth look tomorrow. Nousernamesleft (talk) 02:49, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I axed some somes and I'll take a gander at the long sentences too. Feel free to chop up any that you find particularly troublesome.Plasticup T/C 03:51, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I chopped up and/or reworded a few sentences. The prose appeared good at a second-over, so I struck out the preemptive. The only question I have is on "nations in its paths" - why is paths plural? Nousernamesleft (talk) 00:49, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Because the article has yet experienced the brilliance of Nousernamesleft. 'twas a typo, and i've fixed it. :) Plasticup T/C 00:52, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I chopped up and/or reworded a few sentences. The prose appeared good at a second-over, so I struck out the preemptive. The only question I have is on "nations in its paths" - why is paths plural? Nousernamesleft (talk) 00:49, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I axed some somes and I'll take a gander at the long sentences too. Feel free to chop up any that you find particularly troublesome.Plasticup T/C 03:51, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - For consistency, numbers under ten should usually be spelled out. You have done so everywhere in the article, except for one sentence: "prepared 4 emergency health kits..." —Mattisse (Talk) 21:40, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- WP:MOSNUM explains that "comparable quantities should be all spelled out or all figures". Either I spell out the subsequent "one-thousand water containers" so that they are both spelled out or I use "4" so that they are both in figures. I have chosen the later, because the former would be silly. Thank you for your thorough copy edit. You caught a lot of good things. Plasticup T/C 21:43, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Your suggestion (4 → four) wasn't silly, it was just incomplete. To complete your suggestion we would have to also change 1,000 to one-thousand, and that is where it gets silly. I didn't mean to say that your edit suggestion silly, although re-reading what I wrote I see how you could have read it that way. Plasticup T/C 01:11, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support For the past weeks and months, I've helped copyedit the article quite a bit. After reading the article for some time and watch it progress, I feel this is clearly one of the best articles on a retired hurricane, and for sure the most comprehensive piece of information about the storm. Surely I could find a number of little nitpicks, but overall, it looks terrific. Well done Plasticup; I am truly amazed at your work, giving that my speed is closer to this. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 21:58, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Cloud Gate
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Raul654 19:14, 10 February 2009 [40].
Tropical Storm Kiko (2007)
Fourth attempt at FA for this article. I've corrected most (if not all) of the comments from the previous FAC's and have found no further information on impact in Mexico and on the status of the missing passengers from the ship. All thoughts and comments are welcome. Cyclonebiskit 18:40, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Image review - All images have verifiable licenses and adequate descriptions. Awadewit (talk) 21:33, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Content support - The article is fine, but I am going to be a bit nitpicky here.
- Delink the tons of NHC links in the references except for its first use.
- Split the last paragraph in Meteorological History to two paragraphs.
- Is there any info or interesting details about the remnant low? (Optional)
Its a fine article, think you'd give up after 3 attempts :P - Mitch32(Go Syracuse) 00:15, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. There was nothing special that happened while it was a remnant low. Cyclonebiskit 00:25, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:06, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs) Looks pretty good, although I can't evaluate the content.
"was a strong tropical storm that killed at least 15 people off the coast of Mexico when a ferry, caught in the storm's rough surf, capsized." Isn't that a bit too much detail for the first sentence?"By October 18 Kiko" Comma after "18"."developed along the wave around 275 mi (440 km)" Spell out units on their first appearance, and consider unlinking them, as I am pretty sure most people know what miles and kilometers are."Rainfall totals of 4 in (100 mm) " Same comment here."Only two people survived; 15 bodies were recovered, and nine passengers were never found" Comparable quantities should be written out the same; either all words or all figures.Dabomb87 (talk) 16:50, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I've addressed the last four comments but I'm not sure what's wrong with the first sentence, it seems fine to me. Cyclonebiskit 17:38, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The first sentence is meant to establish context and notabilty. "killed at least 15 people off the coast of Mexico when a ferry, caught in the storm's rough surf, capsized", IMO is too much information. Perhaps just mention that it struck the coast of Mexico and nothing more. Dabomb87 (talk) 17:58, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I would have to include the fatalities somewhere in the lead as that is the most notable event due to the storm. If I take the loss of life out of the lead, then it loses some of it's importance to readers who just check the lead before reading the whole article. Cyclonebiskit 18:01, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The first sentence is meant to establish context and notabilty. "killed at least 15 people off the coast of Mexico when a ferry, caught in the storm's rough surf, capsized", IMO is too much information. Perhaps just mention that it struck the coast of Mexico and nothing more. Dabomb87 (talk) 17:58, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose- Tropical Storm Kiko was a strong tropical storm that killed at least 15 people off the coast of Mexico when a ferry, caught in the storm's rough surf, capsized. - This is rather clunky. I would suggest changing it to, "Tropical Storm Kiko was a strong tropical storm that capsized a boat, killing at least 15 people".
- The 15th and final tropical cyclone and the 11th named storm of the 2007 Pacific hurricane season, Kiko developed out of a tropical wave that formed off the coast of Africa on September 26 and traversed the Atlantic. - Too many "and"s here.
- A tropical wave exited the western coast of Africa on September 26. A second area of low pressure developed along the southern portion of the wave as it traveled west. - You never mentioned the first low pressure area.
- The northern low quickly developed, spawning Tropical Depression Fourteen on September 28. - Why "Fourteen" here, but "15" later?
- It continued through the Atlantic, entering the Pacific Ocean on October 8. - Should specify that it crossed land to get there.
- On October 13, those winds weakened slightly, allowing the low to become better organized.. - Weird punctuation.
- On October 16, strong easterly wind shear exposed the center of the depression. - Exposed from what?
- However, a curving convective band developed around the system, and satellites detected winds of 40 mph (65 km/h). - "Curving convective band" needs a link.
- The storm was forecast to re-intensify slightly over the next five days while drifting to the east-northeast. - Unnecessary and trivial bit of info.
- The center remained poorly defined, and winds of tropical-storm force blew only in Kiko's southwest quadrant. - "Tropical-storm force" → "tropical storm-force".
- Shortly thereafter, shear picked up and began to separate the low from the deep convection. - "Picked up" is rather informal language.
- In general, the meteorological history seems to drag on forever. I think you're trying to squeeze too much information from the discussions, as there is significant redundancy in the text. For example, you mention the wind shear several times in each paragraph.
- done If more needs to be removed, just let me know Cyclonebiskit 16:32, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Rainfall totals of 4 inches (100 millimetres) to 7 in (180 mm) were possible over southwestern Mexico with isolated totals reaching 10 in (250 mm). - Does it really matter what could have happened?
- It gives perspective on why people would have to be evacuated from low-lying areas. Cyclonebiskit 16:32, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- As Kiko traveled parallel to the coast, heavy rain affected the region for two days - Any rainfall totals, or flooding?
- Not that I know of. I've searched in numerous places and found nothing. Cyclonebiskit 16:32, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I would really like to see more information on the ship. Here is a useful source.
Overall, I think it's a nice article, a GA for sure. I just don't think enough research has gone into this. The prose needs work, as well. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:46, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support based on my understanding of the "comprehensiveness" requirement. I'm certain there must have been flooding and mudslides, as with nearly all other storms in Mexico, but there simply isn't any more information. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 16:06, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Here is a Google scholar search, which might reveal something. Dabomb87 (talk) 16:17, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments
- Sorry to give you yet another conflicting opinion on the first sentence, but I disagree with Julian's recommendation. I think it's important to establish a context of where this storm was: "Tropical Storm Kiko was a strong tropical storm that capsized a boat off the western coast of Mexico, killing at least 15 people." +western since there are two coastlines, and at first, I figured it was along the eastern one.
- Naming paragraph doesn't fit well in its current section. BuddingJournalist 16:47, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure what you mean. How does it not fit? Cyclonebiskit 16:56, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It's just a bit jarring to suddenly switch from describing its impact to its name. BuddingJournalist 17:57, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure what you mean. How does it not fit? Cyclonebiskit 16:56, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Leaningsupport—a new wannabe Hink, eh? :) A few things:- need a second paragraph per WP:LEAD, even if it's relatively short... all it needs are one or two more sentences, some regrouping and a split from what you already have.
- Personally, I think a second paragraph in the lead would be too much. There isn't enough information to make a second one without being too detailed. Cyclonebiskit 21:34, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- There's very little that needs to be added to make a second paragraph; as it is, the effects are not mentioned at all--it reads more like a meteorological list than a summation. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 21:37, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Personally, I think a second paragraph in the lead would be too much. There isn't enough information to make a second one without being too detailed. Cyclonebiskit 21:34, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- You repeat this "forecast to hit Mexican coastline" bit twice in the lead, sound repetitive...
- No link to tropical storm in lead?
- "Despite the fatalities associated with the capsized ship, the name Kiko was not retired and is included on the list of names for the 2013 Pacific hurricane season." --an explanation that with deaths a name is retired or summat' would help make this sentence more accessible to non-cyclonephiles.
--Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 16:53, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support a well written article which is up to the standards of the WPTC Jason Rees (talk) 18:29, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 03:08, 29 September 2008 [41].
Cleveland Street scandal
comment would it be possible to get Image:AlVicarticle.jpg on a commons friendly licence? Fasach Nua (talk) 07:56, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment How can you nom a FAC with a broken image? Ling.Nut (talk—WP:3IAR) 11:35, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I didn't know it was. It was showing OK before I refreshed my cache. I'll remove it from the article and tag it for deletion. DrKiernan (talk) 11:48, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Prose—needs work. Here are examples just from the top.
- US spelling for this article? ("fueling")
- Wouldn't mind the usual formula for opening the article (see WP:LEAD).
- "some cash"—remove "some". Same with "some hesitation" (make it "after hesitating for a number of minutes", or something like that—have you got the original account?).
- "fifteen" and "14". And better "15-year-old"; check the other age numbers.
- "representing" --> "equivalent to", since his wages it certainly wasn't.
- Ref 1: usually I complain that there's too much inline ref citing (especially successive repetitions). But in a substantial paragraph, without referencing up in the lead, we need just a little reassurance earlier in the para; perhaps [1] after "Street" as well as at the end?
- I do take it that every claim in the lead is referenced in the body of the article. Tony (talk) 13:49, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Changes made. DrKiernan (talk) 07:56, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:23, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. But the Prince Albert Victor image is probably not the best lead image. His involvement is not really got into until the last paragraph of the article and his involvement is apparently based only upon rumours and a second-hand accusation. Questions on copy-editing:
- "Newlove named Lord Arthur Somerset, head of the Prince of Wales's stables, the Earl of Euston and an Army Colonel by the name of Jervois as visitors" - how many people is in this list?
- "details of the case shuttled between government departments." - I'm not familiar with the use of "shuttle" like this, can a more universal word be used here?
- "the obscure radical weekly The North London Press" - what kind of "radical", as a 21st century layman, I'm sure my sense of what "radical" periodical is is quite different from what was published in 1889.
- "The judge, Mr. Justice Hawkins,...Mr. Justice Cave" - I don't think honorifics like Mr. are used in WP articles. --maclean 05:12, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks! Ideally, I would like a picture of Cleveland Street in the lead, but I couldn't find one on wiki. I'll see if there's one elsewhere. I've made changes to address your other points: [42]. DrKiernan (talk) 07:47, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support: Just a couple of points, both related to the lead:-
- The term "rentboy" needs a link or explanation (note: the link article is substandard)
- The mentions of "Prince Albert Victor of Wales" and the "Prince of Wales" in close proximity might have some people thinking that they are one and the same person, rather than son and father. This relationship is made clear in the body of the article, but should be clarified in the lead.
Overall, an excellent article, clear and very comprehensive. Brianboulton (talk) 16:45, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 'Comment I assume you have Hyde at hand. I found a quote in a journal article that looks useful: "For fear of the contaminating publicity, the lord chancellor advised inaction in a memorandum he wrote to the treasury solicitor: 'The social position of some of the parties will make a great sensation and this will give very wide publicity and consequently will spread very extensively the matter of which I am satisfied will produce enormous evil' (quoted in Hyde 1976, p. 84)." The quote is from Adut, Ari (2005). A Theory of Scandal: Victorians, Homosexuality, and the Fall of Oscar Wilde. The American Journal of Sociology, Volume 111 Number 1 : 213–48. I trust you'll consult Hyde to verify the quote, if you want to use it. The article also has an interesting discussion of English libel tort that in part explains why the outcome of legal action was so often a "cover up". Ling.Nut (talk—WP:3IAR) 06:59, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support with a few quibbles
- Male brothel section, second sentence in the first paragraph, "...equivalent to several weeks of his wages." seems very awkward to me. Perhaps the "... equivalent to several weeks' worth of wages." or "...equivalent to several weeks' wages."
- Notable clients section, third paragraph ..."The boys were also given sentences which were considered at the time to be very lenient." What were the sentences? Also, the sentence here is a bit awkward, perhaps..."The boys were given sentences of (whatever they were), considered at the time to be very lenient."
- Same section, when did Hammond escape to France and when did the French expel him?
- Aftermath section, first paragraph, I think you probably need a citation for this paragraph, as it's citing public opinion.
- Overall, a bit wordy in the prose, but easily readable. Excellent work, I'm happy to support. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:35, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, with comments
- Prince Albert Victor purchased rent boys and killed those women in Whitechapel? What a busy guy.
- Sorry for not giving this a peer review when it was posted.
- Can you include information at the end about the scandal in history, as in - what was its place? How do historians see the scandal now? How did it affect the monarchy, legal system, or equal rights for gays years after? --Moni3 (talk) 03:12, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support I lost some very minor comments to server limbo a few days ago & can't remember them now, but article clearly meets the FAC standards. Johnbod (talk) 20:37, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/No Mercy (2005)
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:Raul654 19:07, 14 December 2008 [44].
Tropical Storm Erick (2007)
- Nominator(s): Juliancolton
- previous FAC (19:52, 30 September 2008)
Yep, here it is again, the weak tropical storm that never affected land. It's a very short article, obviously, but what it lacks in length it makes up for in comprehensiveness. The article uses a variety of sources, both from government and news agencies. As it was a very short-lived storm, there is nothing more to write about it that isn't indiscriminate. Why am I nominating this again? Because I've worked hard at it, and with the help of Titoxd (talk · contribs) who significantly copyedited the article, I feel it meets the criteria without a question. Last time I nominated this, I withdrew due to growing opposition to such a short article, with the hope that a massive discussion at WT:FAC would eventually resolve the issue at hand. As it's been several weeks, and there has been no progress in coming to an agreement, it seems likely that the FA criteria will not be changed to exclude short articles in the near future. So, during this FAC, I strongly encourage people to vote in compliance with the current criteria. Please note that this is not a POINT nomination, but rather a regular attempt to recognize an article as Wikipedia's best work. Thanks in advance for any comments, –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 04:14, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Why is there an image in the references section? --Dylan620 (Home • yadda yadda yadda • Ooooohh!) 14:05, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- During the previous FAC, some editors requested more satellite pictures. As there is no room in the text for another image, I added it to the references section. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 15:18, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't think the image in the ref section does anything to enhance the reader's understanding, and it is odd placement. لennavecia 16:23, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree with Jennavecia. For now,
weak supportupgraded to regular-strength support. Good luck with the nomination, Julian. --Dylan620 (Home • yadda yadda yadda • Ooooohh!) 17:00, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Alright, that's fair. I removed the image. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 19:50, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support now that the image issue is fixed. --Dylan620 (Home • yadda yadda yadda • Ooooohh!) 12:05, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Alright, that's fair. I removed the image. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 19:50, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree with Jennavecia. For now,
- I don't think the image in the ref section does anything to enhance the reader's understanding, and it is odd placement. لennavecia 16:23, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:21, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, 15:18, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Comment. There's an apparent discrepancy between the minimum pressure given in the infobox (1004 mbar) and that given in the text (1005 mbar). --Malleus Fatuorum 14:41, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Got it, thanks. 15:18, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Comment. Can you do something about this sentence: "In terms of forecasting, despite lower than average official forecasting errors, Erick was poorly forecast"? The repetitions really clunk, here. Also, what does "lower than average official forecasting errors" actually refer to? Is the intended sense that, while in general, official forecasting errors for the season were lower than the averages of other seasons, Erick wasn't forecast accurately? If so, could this be clarified? Brianboulton (talk) 15:08, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The source doesn't provide any further clarification, so I removed that one bit of the sentence. Thanks for the comments. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 15:18, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support- This article is well written.--Irmela08 16:34, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Comment - It's not really a very short article, but since you offer it up as such, we need to test that shortness in itself isn't unsatisfactory. This perhaps allows us to test the application of the new clarified "placing the subject in context". Why is this article of interest? The thesis seems to be that the storm was not unusual in any way and had no impact. Why not merge it with all the other nondescript unimportant storms of that season then? What is it that justifies this storm having its own article? What does it tell us that would be lost in a list of other run-of-the-mill weather events of 2007?
More specific points:
- Because the storm remained far from land, no damage was reported in association with Erick. - if it had damaged shipping would this not have been reported? It appears that it wasn't powerful enough to have caused any damage anyway (if this is the wrong interpretation it suggests that I don't have a enough context to draw the correct conclusion)
- This has been rephrased poorly. Now we have no damage on land, when it should be no damage at all. Yomanganitalk 02:21, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 02:32, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- On July 22, the wave passed through the Lesser Antilles with some deep, yet disorganized thunderstorm activity. What is "deep" thunderstorm activity? Are thunderstorms normally organized?
- The thunderstorms are still "disorganized" with no explanation of what this means. Yomanganitalk 02:21, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Clarified. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 02:32, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I appreciate you are trying to clarify the meaning of disorganized in this context, but so far it isn't a lot clearer. Is it a technical term? If so, could it be linked to an appropriate article? If not, could it be rephrased to avoid the implication of organisation by some form of intelligence. Yomanganitalk 19:29, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- At the time of its upgrade, Erick attained peak winds of 40 mph (65 km/h) and a minimum central pressure of 1004 mbar. Was the peak and minimum for the entire life of the storm, or just during the period it was being upgraded?
- Although finding the exact position of the center of circulation was difficult... For whom? Why?
- We are still missing the "why?" (and why is it important to do so?) Yomanganitalk 02:21, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The sentence, In particular, the storm formed without significant warning, and dissipated similarly, explains this. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 02:32, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What does that explain in relation to the sentence above? Aside for the fact it is not related to it in the text, it is a comment on the forecasting success not the monitoring and plotting of the storm. Why was it difficult to locate the centre of circulation? What was it about the storm that made this difficult? And why do the meteorologists (or anybody else) need to locate the centre of circulation? Yomanganitalk 19:29, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- A weak low pressure system formed along the wave on August 3, although it failed to reorganize as it entered the North Pacific. Why? We know the wind shear prevented it forming initially, did it prevent it reforming as well? What is failing to reorganize into what? Would this reorganization normally be expected (and if not why is it mentioned)?
- The above have been clarified. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 17:56, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- On August 5, the low-level remnants of Tropical Storm Erick passed south of Hawaii, though caused no effects. no effects? How were they detected then? Perhaps you mean no damage?
- Hmm, I'm not really sure what kind of clarification you are requesting. Could you please explain further? –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 17:56, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "No effects" is rather vague. If it caused no effects, it would not be detectable. Do you mean had no impact on the infrastructure? Caused no damage? Also "on the island" has been added here. Hawaii is an archipelago. Is this meant to be Hawaii's "Big Island" or is this just an error? Yomanganitalk 02:21, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- With regard to the reply to Brianboulton above. The source doesn't provide any further clarification, so I removed that one bit of the sentence. Are there no other sources to explain this? Rather than removing parts of the meagre information available, can you not provide some explanation? Yomanganitalk 17:42, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The Tropical Cyclone Report is the only source that provides information about forecasting for minor storms such as Erick, and it doesn't clarify that statement. The only way to clarify that in the article would be original research. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 17:56, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support.
Oppose. This is a fairly weak oppose, based not on the shortness of the article but on the prose quality and lack of context in certain areas. Some examples:- "On August 5, the low-level remnants of Tropical Storm Erick passed south of Hawaii, though caused no effects." Ungrammatical and doesn't make sense.
- "In general, Erick was poorly forecast; the storm formed without significant warning, and dissipated similarly." What does "in general" mean here? Poorly forecast in relation to what, in what way? Why was it "poorly forecast"?
- We're told in the lead that Erick was the eighth tropical storm of the 2007 Pacific season. What is Erick's relative standing in that season overall? Was Erick typical for that season?
--Malleus Fatuorum 19:36, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've addressed the above examples. Could you take another look? Thanks, –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 19:50, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't agree that the examples have been addressed; in at least one case the issue has been compounded. For instance: "Erick was considered to be poorly forecast by the National Hurricane Center". This is not at all clear. By whom was it considered to have been poorly forecast? By the National Hurricane Center? Or were they the ones doing the forecasting, and someone else (unspecified) considered that they had done a poor job of forecasting? --Malleus Fatuorum 20:05, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The National Hurricane Center considered the storm to have been poorly forecast by themselves; I've tried to make this clear in the article, though suggestions regarding further clarification would be appreciated. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 20:25, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I rewrote the whole sentence. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 20:57, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That looks a lot better, thanks Tito. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 21:14, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I rewrote the whole sentence. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 20:57, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The National Hurricane Center considered the storm to have been poorly forecast by themselves; I've tried to make this clear in the article, though suggestions regarding further clarification would be appreciated. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 20:25, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't agree that the examples have been addressed; in at least one case the issue has been compounded. For instance: "Erick was considered to be poorly forecast by the National Hurricane Center". This is not at all clear. By whom was it considered to have been poorly forecast? By the National Hurricane Center? Or were they the ones doing the forecasting, and someone else (unspecified) considered that they had done a poor job of forecasting? --Malleus Fatuorum 20:05, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Enough has been done to satisfy me over the points I raised above. Switching to support. --Malleus Fatuorum 18:50, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
From the lead:
- "Because the storm remained far out to sea" Should that not be at sea?
- Changed. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:18, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "with some strong, yet disorganized thunderstorm activity." Thunderstorms are organized?
- In strong and mature tropical cyclones, thunderstorm activity is organized in coverage, intensity, and cloud pattern. Should this be clarified in the article? –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:18, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ugh, I'd rather not have a rehash of Tropical cyclone#Structure and Eye (cyclone) in the lede. How can we link to this? Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 03:33, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- In strong and mature tropical cyclones, thunderstorm activity is organized in coverage, intensity, and cloud pattern. Should this be clarified in the article? –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:18, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I won't make a "vote" yet, as I'm not especially familiar with this topic. – How do you turn this on (talk) 00:18, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the comments. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:18, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Image review
Image:Erick 2007 track.png - This image needs to have an author. We need to know who is releasing it into the PD.Image:TS Erick 2007 1600Z August1.jpg - The source link for this image does not work.
These should be easy issues to fix up. Awadewit (talk) 17:53, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 21:02, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Cyclonebiskit (talk · contribs) My turn :P Little later that I wanted to be but here it goes
- Lead
- Good
- Meteorological history
- "At the time of its upgrade, Erick attained its peak winds as a cyclone of 40 mph (65 km/h) and a minimum central pressure of 1004 mbar.[1]" No conversion into inHg?
- " A weak low pressure system formed along the wave on August 3, although it failed to reorganize into a tropical cyclone as it entered the North Pacific." It's already in the North Pacific, do you mean West or Central?
- "According to the storm's Tropical Cyclone Report, the National Hurricane Center considered that its own staff forecast poorly the evolution of Erick when compared to the center's average prediction errors." forecast poorly? Might just be me, but seems a bit awkward
- Impact and statistics
- Good
- Other stuff
- Good
Just three little things I found after reading it over. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 17:12, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Changed all three. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 18:46, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral Support per usual disclaimer. I have followed the arguments on various pages and read some previous arguments concerning shorter FAs. I'm left feeling disappointed that we're not making anything that feels to me like progress. The bottom line is that, when I read an article like this, my sense is that it will usually wind up not getting promoted at FAC for one reason or another. When the community is ready to make a good-faith effort to carefully push the boundary, to figure out exactly what kind of shorter and "drier" (probably better than "boring", which is laden with value judgment) articles can become Featured, without weakening what it means to be Featured, I'll be happy to read the arguments and toss in my vote. Until then, I'm not willing to weigh in one way or the other; harm could be done either way if I take a shot in the dark. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 14:32, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've changed my mind and decided that I can support Julian's "storm to nowhere" article, but only after the addition of a hatnote at the top, "See also Effects of tropical cyclones and 2007 Pacific hurricane season." I'm looking for the question of the cumulative impact of storms like these to be answered somewhere, and I think we should point to that right at the start. To the objection that this is a "vanilla" article, and that shorter and drier FAs will create a perception that some people "get off easy" writing FAs: Julian has worked very hard on this article, and he and others had to write the other articles that supplement this one, or I wouldn't be supporting. To the objection that making this article FA will encourage people to write almanac articles rather than improving the articles that more people are actually reading: that's not Julian's problem; if this is the article he wants to write, let him write it, and if he wants to improve it up to FAC standards, fine. We have other ways of encouraging work on the high-traffic articles, such as the weight given to hits per month at WP:V1.0. To G-Guy's objections: I understand that almanac-like articles in Wikipedia are fine; my context was FAC. Also, I understand that this article is boring, but the point is that the impact of the 2007 Pacific hurricane season isn't boring at all, and this article constitutes one piece of that puzzle. If I had my way, I would decide it differently, but I have been persuaded that current consensus sees WIAFA #4 as prohibiting details in this article that can't be tied to this storm. To the objection above that WP:NOT says that my standards of journalistic writing don't apply in Wikipedia: WP:NOT doesn't come close to saying that, it says that Wikipedia is not the news. Standards of professional writing, at least in popular science articles in high-quality newspaper and magazine articles, have always been relevant at FAC. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 15:18, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose in its current form. My problem is that I don't know yet what the new phrase "places the subject in context" from WP:FA? means, and I've started a thread at WT:FAC#"places the subject in context" to help me decide. I think the article is very professionally written, but ... well, I'll explain over there. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 18:41, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
[reply]
I've chatted with Julian about this; I want to be clear that I'm trying to discover what the FAC criteria have been all along, not make up an interpretation of "place in context". I'll go gather data on previous FACs and come back with a more detailed argument. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 22:49, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
[reply]
Sorry, but I don't understand this oppose. Could you please elaborate further? Thank you. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 19:27, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Sure Julian. It's possible this is not an "actionable" oppose, because you can't take action to bring the article in line with "places the subject in context" if the community hasn't defined what that means yet, and we haven't. But I think a little more discussion for a few days might get us something that's a little clearer.
My two cents: I want to see at least a claim as to the effect on or interest by humans. That claim might be that unusual surfing conditions or beach erosion was caused by the storm, or it was a significant threat to shipping. Or it might be that meteorologists learned something interesting from or about the storm. If you can't find anything about this storm in particular that evoked some kind of reaction, then a trick journalists will use is to use this relatively uninteresting storm as a lead-in to explaining some of the ways that all big storms are interesting. Storms harm ecosystems; they have some (minimal) effects on "dead zones" in the oceans; beach erosion is a significant concern in many places, including Hawaii (and the seawalls we build in response can make the problem worse). There are many gradual effects of storms, and your readers would understand why storms are so interesting to you if you talked about some of that. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 19:49, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]Responding to the anticipated objection: yes, I know that in general we try to segregate material into separate articles, so that a discussion of "beach erosion" doesn't usually belong in an article about a storm; people can click on the links. Still, I'm looking for a "good read" in an FA. I'm looking to have some idea of context. I'm fine with "cheating" a little bit to get there, pulling in stuff that is really better covered in other articles, as long as it doesn't get in the way of the main material, and as long as it answers the question, "Why am I reading this article?" - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 20:04, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- My two cents on that would be that to widen the discussion in the way you describe would be a breach of criterion 4 ironically. Not because of length but because of the article's lack of focus. I also think that to be fair this article must be judged against the criteria as the are now, not as they may be in a few days time. --Malleus Fatuorum 20:05, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- (ec) To go on about how some storms cause damage, beach erosion, etc. would fail criterion 4. Information about tropical cyclone impact in general can be found at Tropical cyclone, which is linked from this article. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 20:16, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge Could this whole thing be merged in a article Tropical Storms 2007 to get a article with a information content worth to read it?--Stone (talk) 21:03, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- First, despite the recent discussion to merge the article, WikiProject tropical cyclones has agreed upon writing articles for each storm, so long as the article meets project standards. Second, if we merged this article on a minor tropical storm into 2007 Pacific hurricane season, Erick's section would be longer than many other storms—even those that made landfall and caused severe damage—so we would be introducing undue weight. Lastly, the article clearly meets Wikipedia's notability criteria, having had significant coverage in secondary, reliable sources. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 21:06, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- My humble idea: Make an article uniteresting tropical storms without landfall!--Stone (talk) 21:10, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, but I don't see the humor in this. Cheers, –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 21:13, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- My humble idea: Make an article uniteresting tropical storms without landfall!--Stone (talk) 21:10, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree with writing an article on each storm. I disagree with featuring them. Geometry guy 21:16, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No, not funny, I agree. The thing I find interesting about Erick, and if more information were available would like to see expanded, is why it was so poorly forecasted. That alone, for me at least, makes Erick noteworthy, and even (dare I say it) interesting. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:20, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OpposeWeak oppose. Too boring to feature. The article fails to place the subject in context, because it doesn't have a notable context: "no effects, property damage or fatalities were reported; no ships were affected, and no tropical cyclone warnings and watches were issued" and "due to the lack of any impact, the name Erick was not retired, and is scheduled to be reused for the fifth named storm of the 2013 Pacific hurricane season". In other words, the hurricane was not just boring, but even officially boring. And it isn't even interesting for being the most boring hurricane, since it was only the second most boring of its season, according to the article. This is like an article on the batting averages of a mediocre player in a mediocre baseball team. I don't think articles like this need to be merged or deleted (I am broadly inclusionist). But featuring them is an exercise in futility. Is anyone excited about the idea that this could go on the main page one day? The article is good, maybe as good as it can be, and much credit to Juliancolton for all his efforts. but articles like this aren't our best work. Geometry guy 21:16, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- To oppose a merge because the resulting article would be unbalaned is no point not to merge it. secondary, reliable sources a institute which has no other job than to look for storms would publish all the numbers you want, but this makes it not an interesting article anybody wants to read except the people from National Hurricane Center and they already published everything on their home page.--Stone (talk) 21:23, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- As I've said previously in this discussion, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, so it is our job to write about subjects which many people don't find interesting. Also, the articles uses a variety of sources, not just from the National Hurricane Center. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 21:25, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree. This article should exist as a separate article, per Pillar One and WP:Notability.
- But should it be featured? At the moment almost any FA is eligible for TFA with no additional criteria other than "Raul decides". That's not a great environment to work in (even if it reflects the name "featured article") but it is where we are now. Geometry guy 22:00, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Relax Geo. Raul isn't going to make this TFA, ever. He keeps a tight lid on what kind of hurricane/storm articles get TFA and how often. Your oppose is therefore not only unactionable, it is based on a future event that will almost certainly never happen. Wrad (talk) 22:37, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I am quite relaxed actually Wr. It will not spoil my day if this article is featured. I will just shrug and think "it's a funny old world, Wikipedia". My comment probably isn't actionable, unless there are reasons out there why this hurricane is particularly interesting (Malleus suggests above that there might be, but thinks they might not be sourced). The whole idea of actionable comments conflicts with WP:WIAFA however, which is purely about the quality of the article and mentions the word "actionable" precisely zero times. Instead "actionable" is a conduct code for reviewers. If you think my oppose is bad faith, please take it up on my talk page. In the meanwhile, I don't see the benefit in flooding Raul's list of potential TFAs with articles he generally ignores. What purpose does it serve? Geometry guy 22:49, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- First of all, unactionable to me means that the oppose is not based on the criteria, not that the reviewer's oppose is in bad faith. Second, I don't think you are very aware of the TFA process as it works in practice, only how it works in theory. In theory, yes, Raul could go into zombie mode and pull a random article out of a hat, but that doesn't happen. Please point me to a recent TFA, (in the last year?) that was "boring" in the same way this one is (to you), and then your argument would be stronger. Wrad (talk) 22:56, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This isn't my point. What purpose does it serve to feature this article? It will never appear on the main page you say. Does it represent Wikipedia's best work? Geometry guy 23:07, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yep. Wrad (talk) 23:11, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What purpose does it serve? To encourage others to reach the same standard of article writing. Does it represent wikipedia's best work? Yes, it does, unless you choose to arbitrarily and unilaterally add "interesting" to the FA criteria. Who cares about the main page anyway? Since when was every FA guaranteed a place on the main page? --Malleus Fatuorum 23:14, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Great. So if you had to showcase how great Wikipedia is, the quality and the detail of its articles, the breadth of its scope, you would pick this one. Geometry guy 23:14, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That would be a subjective decision not based on standard criteria. We have standard criteria for a reason. This article meets the set criteria. Wrad (talk) 23:16, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK. That's an answer. Geometry guy 23:19, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Just not one I agree with :-) Geometry guy 20:01, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK. That's an answer. Geometry guy 23:19, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That would be a subjective decision not based on standard criteria. We have standard criteria for a reason. This article meets the set criteria. Wrad (talk) 23:16, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Great. So if you had to showcase how great Wikipedia is, the quality and the detail of its articles, the breadth of its scope, you would pick this one. Geometry guy 23:14, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This isn't my point. What purpose does it serve to feature this article? It will never appear on the main page you say. Does it represent Wikipedia's best work? Geometry guy 23:07, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- First of all, unactionable to me means that the oppose is not based on the criteria, not that the reviewer's oppose is in bad faith. Second, I don't think you are very aware of the TFA process as it works in practice, only how it works in theory. In theory, yes, Raul could go into zombie mode and pull a random article out of a hat, but that doesn't happen. Please point me to a recent TFA, (in the last year?) that was "boring" in the same way this one is (to you), and then your argument would be stronger. Wrad (talk) 22:56, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I am quite relaxed actually Wr. It will not spoil my day if this article is featured. I will just shrug and think "it's a funny old world, Wikipedia". My comment probably isn't actionable, unless there are reasons out there why this hurricane is particularly interesting (Malleus suggests above that there might be, but thinks they might not be sourced). The whole idea of actionable comments conflicts with WP:WIAFA however, which is purely about the quality of the article and mentions the word "actionable" precisely zero times. Instead "actionable" is a conduct code for reviewers. If you think my oppose is bad faith, please take it up on my talk page. In the meanwhile, I don't see the benefit in flooding Raul's list of potential TFAs with articles he generally ignores. What purpose does it serve? Geometry guy 22:49, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Relax Geo. Raul isn't going to make this TFA, ever. He keeps a tight lid on what kind of hurricane/storm articles get TFA and how often. Your oppose is therefore not only unactionable, it is based on a future event that will almost certainly never happen. Wrad (talk) 22:37, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- As I've said previously in this discussion, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, so it is our job to write about subjects which many people don't find interesting. Also, the articles uses a variety of sources, not just from the National Hurricane Center. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 21:25, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- To oppose a merge because the resulting article would be unbalaned is no point not to merge it. secondary, reliable sources a institute which has no other job than to look for storms would publish all the numbers you want, but this makes it not an interesting article anybody wants to read except the people from National Hurricane Center and they already published everything on their home page.--Stone (talk) 21:23, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I submit that this article fails, in a marginal and perhaps even unactionable way, at least one of 1a, 1b, 2b and 4. I read the article again, and looked at the previous FAC. 1a: is the prose engaging? No it is dull. For example, the first paragraph of the first section is proseline; I was also interested to read Tony1's objection at the previous FAC. 1b: does it place the subject in context? Nope, it now even needs a hatnote to say to the reader, "This article is not very interesting, but these articles are, and if you read them first, you will learn that this was a boring tropical storm which didn't do anything beyond the things that many tropical storms do." 2b: does it have a substantial table of contents? The storm happened. It had no impact. I'm underwhelmed. 4: does it avoid going into unnecessary detail? Read the last paragraph of the first section and decide for yourselves.
- In the previous FAC, Juliancolton honestly admitted "I'm trying to set a precedent for FACing less-notable storms". This article presents a very poor case for establishing such a precedent, and I hope that such a precedent will not be established. Why not try instead to make the 2007 Pacific hurricane season into a featured topic? This article provides a GA for that topic. Geometry guy 20:01, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, I'm not trying to set a precedent. I'm simply trying to get this article recognized as Wikipedia's best work. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 20:04, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, in response to your concerns about proseline in the lead, I'd like you to take a look at Category:FA-Class Tropical cyclone storm articles. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 20:19, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The main proseline issue is not the lead, but the first paragraph of the first section. (And I'm afraid comparison with other tropical storm FAs has already been dismissed as an irrelevant argument.) Geometry guy 20:28, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, if dozens of articles with the same format are featured, that seems like a precedent to me. Regardless, do you have any suggestions as to how the information could be presented in a less timeline-like way? –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 20:32, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Say less. At least to a non-expert, the first moment of interest (dare I say that :) was when the wave crossed Central America and formed into a low pressure system in the Eastern Pacific. The preceding events are not worth dating (although the formation could be dated in passing, rather than as the opening of the paragraph). Over-dating also true in the last paragraph, which has four dates, none of which are particularly notable. There's also some personification going on here ("they failed" suggests "they tried"). Geometry guy 20:53, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- All done. Hope that satisfies some of your concerns, –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 21:04, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The first paragraph is a bit better, but you only fixed "it failed" in the last, which still goes into unnecessary detail, using unnecessary and possibly even false precision about the timeline. Geometry guy 19:41, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, I removed a bunch of dates. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 20:09, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The first paragraph is a bit better, but you only fixed "it failed" in the last, which still goes into unnecessary detail, using unnecessary and possibly even false precision about the timeline. Geometry guy 19:41, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- All done. Hope that satisfies some of your concerns, –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 21:04, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Say less. At least to a non-expert, the first moment of interest (dare I say that :) was when the wave crossed Central America and formed into a low pressure system in the Eastern Pacific. The preceding events are not worth dating (although the formation could be dated in passing, rather than as the opening of the paragraph). Over-dating also true in the last paragraph, which has four dates, none of which are particularly notable. There's also some personification going on here ("they failed" suggests "they tried"). Geometry guy 20:53, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, if dozens of articles with the same format are featured, that seems like a precedent to me. Regardless, do you have any suggestions as to how the information could be presented in a less timeline-like way? –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 20:32, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The main proseline issue is not the lead, but the first paragraph of the first section. (And I'm afraid comparison with other tropical storm FAs has already been dismissed as an irrelevant argument.) Geometry guy 20:28, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(←) Ok, that's another improvement in my view. Now, unnecessary detail: what does "On August 5, the low-level remnants of Tropical Storm Erick passed south of Hawaii, although they caused no effects on the island." add to the article? I suggest cutting it. Geometry guy 22:40, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, that is actually a significant part of the storm's history. It was the only time the storm or its remnants approached land, so I feel it adds context. Will remove if you feel necessary. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:26, 5 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If you disagree with my suggestion, stay true to your own judgement. That is the only way to handle conflicting views of different reviewers and I am very much against the "jump through every hoop of every reviewer" culture. If you want to keep the sentence, maybe "no rainfall" is better than "no effects" as that is what the source says. Presumably the wind shifted a bit and there were a few extra clouds :-) Geometry guy 19:09, 5 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Switching to weak oppose for at least three reasons. (1) The remaining actionable points are disputed. (2) My original oppose was partly intended to raise a general issue with a rhetorical approach (e.g. "boring" rather than "contributes little significant additional content") and that isn't entirely fair. (3) Markus Poessel has made a good case (also with some rhetoric :) at WT:FAC against the general tenet of this kind of oppose. It is a matter of some debate whether every article should have the potential to be an FA, and one like this may not be a good precedent. As I've said before, it won't spoil my day if this is featured, but I still believe that it does not meet 1a, 1b, 2b and 4, so I can't in good faith strike my oppose. Geometry guy 17:45, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. It seems to me that this article does quite a good job of putting the subject in context, particularly in the first sentence--which places it into the context of 2007 hurricane season--and the final section--which is pretty much an explicit discussion of storm's significance that compares it appropriately to other storms. It gives the reader enough information to understand how this storm fits into the broader context of 2007 storms and storms in general. (The failure of some short FA candidates to similarly enable the reader to understand how the topic fits into the most relevant broader contexts seems to have been the motivation for the new context bit; this article doesn't have that shortcoming.)--ragesoss (talk) 21:54, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - It meets the criteria. Let's not misquote and misinterpret the criteria willy-nilly in order to make sure it doesn't pass. Wrad (talk) 22:37, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Note to those who aren't sure whether or not it should be merged. Prior to the previous FAC (meaning in a previous and potentially outdated version of the article), I tested whether or not merging the article would make the parent article too long - test here. I also tested the current version - test here. As the season article is not featured (and thus incomplete), you could compare that section to one from 1995, 1998, or 2003. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 23:49, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- FWIW, that merge test excludes several sentences of info that's in the Erick article. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 00:10, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Which sentences are those? If they're in the lede, they should be in the body of the article. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:53, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Almost the entire Impact and statistics section. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:02, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The entire impact and statistics section is actually just full of naming, which is never included in the season article, and it includes info on Accumulated Cyclone Energy (which is debated on whether it should be there in the first place). There was nothing missing from my test. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:31, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Which furthers my belief that this article should be kept separate; otherwise, information is lost. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:41, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Not at all! The ACE is useless (it already appears in the season article in that table), and the naming stuff is already in the dab article. There's nothing that would be missing. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:46, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- ACE is cited to a reliable source, so there's nothing wrong with including it. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:54, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- ACE has been discussed, and there is some agreement in the project to not include it (such as: scientists rarely/never use ACE for individual storms, it's a fairly meaningless/confusing statistic). Also, as I said, the ACE already appears in the seasonal article. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:03, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That doesn't mean it shouldn't be including within this article. Also, true, a few editors have expressed their opinion against ACE, but there's really no consensus, and I still fail to see a real reason why we shouldn't include it. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 02:07, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You're missing my point. You said the entire Impact and statistics section was missing from that test, and I proved that nothing was missing (by ACE already being in the season article, and the naming being in the dab article). ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:08, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, with the ACE, there's a problem over the sourcing. The NCDC, as the project has uncovered, only uses operational data. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:10, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Still, NCDC is a reliable source, so we have to use it rather than our own calculations. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 03:26, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I disagree with "we have to use it." The site may be reliable normally, but that link is not reliable, as we know the values are operational and not 100% accurate. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:53, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Do we have any proof that the information from that site is incorrect? Also, per WP:V, we still have to use the reliable source over what we believe is correct. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 14:44, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, the WPTC went over this a while ago; the site was only updated through the season, thus not reflecting post-season (official) changes. I totally disagree that "we still have to use the reliable source", as 1) we know it's not correct, and 2) it's not needed in the article. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 15:33, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You haven't answered my question. Regardless of what WPTC thinks, is there any actual evidence that proves NCDC to be incorrect? It really doesn't matter if you disagree with that statement. Per WP:V, a core content policy, ...whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 17:19, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, I have answered your question. We found that the NCDC only used operational data, which makes it incorrect with regards to post-season changes. It does matter that I disagree with that statement, because using ACE in general is completely optional to begin with. If the source you have for it is not accurate with regards to post-season changes, then the link is not reliable, regardless of where it came from, and thus it shouldn't be in the article. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:19, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You haven't answered my question. Regardless of what WPTC thinks, is there any actual evidence that proves NCDC to be incorrect? It really doesn't matter if you disagree with that statement. Per WP:V, a core content policy, ...whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 17:19, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, the WPTC went over this a while ago; the site was only updated through the season, thus not reflecting post-season (official) changes. I totally disagree that "we still have to use the reliable source", as 1) we know it's not correct, and 2) it's not needed in the article. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 15:33, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Do we have any proof that the information from that site is incorrect? Also, per WP:V, we still have to use the reliable source over what we believe is correct. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 14:44, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I disagree with "we have to use it." The site may be reliable normally, but that link is not reliable, as we know the values are operational and not 100% accurate. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:53, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Still, NCDC is a reliable source, so we have to use it rather than our own calculations. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 03:26, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, with the ACE, there's a problem over the sourcing. The NCDC, as the project has uncovered, only uses operational data. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:10, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You're missing my point. You said the entire Impact and statistics section was missing from that test, and I proved that nothing was missing (by ACE already being in the season article, and the naming being in the dab article). ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:08, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That doesn't mean it shouldn't be including within this article. Also, true, a few editors have expressed their opinion against ACE, but there's really no consensus, and I still fail to see a real reason why we shouldn't include it. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 02:07, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- ACE has been discussed, and there is some agreement in the project to not include it (such as: scientists rarely/never use ACE for individual storms, it's a fairly meaningless/confusing statistic). Also, as I said, the ACE already appears in the seasonal article. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:03, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- ACE is cited to a reliable source, so there's nothing wrong with including it. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:54, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Not at all! The ACE is useless (it already appears in the season article in that table), and the naming stuff is already in the dab article. There's nothing that would be missing. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:46, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Which furthers my belief that this article should be kept separate; otherwise, information is lost. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:41, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The entire impact and statistics section is actually just full of naming, which is never included in the season article, and it includes info on Accumulated Cyclone Energy (which is debated on whether it should be there in the first place). There was nothing missing from my test. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:31, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Almost the entire Impact and statistics section. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:02, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Which sentences are those? If they're in the lede, they should be in the body of the article. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:53, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- FWIW, that merge test excludes several sentences of info that's in the Erick article. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 00:10, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- ← Do we have any proof that NCDC uses operational data, or is this just our belief? –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 18:28, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- As I said several times before, we know that NCDC was last updated during the actual season. On the bottom of the page, it clearly says "Last Updated Thursday, 01-Nov-2007 13:38:53 EDT." ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:48, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- (de-indent) I have an issue that references five and six are the exact same (from two different websites), yet they provide no additional information than reference four (which is the official NHC one). ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 04:03, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Care to respond on this? ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:19, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Duplicate source replaced. Thanks, –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 18:35, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Care to respond on this? ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:19, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- (de-indent) I have an issue that references five and six are the exact same (from two different websites), yet they provide no additional information than reference four (which is the official NHC one). ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 04:03, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose, primarily due to its potential for it to be merged. Also, the following sentence does not appear in the cited link
- A weak low pressure system formed along the wave on August 3, although it failed to reorganize into a tropical cyclone as it entered the North Central Pacific.
- I did another test here, which resulted in a two paragraph section, much like the sections of the featured 1995 season. I removed the aforementioned trouble sentence, as well as the one on the tropical wave (which is not directly related to the storm); I also condensed some needlessly long sentences, and removed usages of the "had" in phrases like "had become". I'm not suggesting that the article should be merged ASAP, rather that I don't think it should be featured due to its easy potential for it to be merged. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:48, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, but this oppose is not actionable. It is not up to FAC to decide whether an article should be merged; instead, FAC should try to determine whether an article meets the FA criteria. Is there anything about the article that does not meet the criteria? –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 18:53, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Logically, if the article could be merged, then it would fail the stability criterion. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:59, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Any article might be merged. Also, FWIW, you voted to keep the article. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 19:10, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Unlike any other article might being merged, I don't think any other FAC's could be merged as easily this one, as the tests have shown. And, no, I didn't "vote" to keep the article. The edit summary said "keep", and the actual edit showed it was a reluctant keep. Just because it was a reluctant keep, doesn't mean I would oppose it being merged. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:24, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Examples of current FAs that are shorter than Erick: Hurricane Irene (2005), 2005 Azores subtropical storm, New York State Route 373. Sure, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, but this shows that articles of 10 kb aren't unprecedented at FAC, so there's no higher chance of this being merged than many other nominations. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 19:31, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Neither of those 2005 FA's could be merged, due to the season article being so record-breaking (not to mention featured already). I won't comment on the road one. The point is that this article could be merged very easily, but those, not so much. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:52, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Notability is not inherited. Thus, being an active season does not make the storms within it more notable than anything else. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 21:41, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- As I said before, the articles can't be merged, due to the season being so active, and that it's already featured. This article could fit easily in the 2007 PHS season article, since it's not featured and there wasn't as much information involved with the season. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:12, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That doesn't make much sense, as the article clearly meets the notability criteria. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 22:19, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That's your opinion; I personally think it did not have "substantial coverage in reliable sources" (other than brief mentions in newspapers while it was active, and a few NOAA/NHC documents). WP:MERGE lists "context needed" as a reason for merging, which begs me to ask: was the storm notable on its own, as a random bunch of clouds that didn't affect anyone, or was it notable because it was named and part of the 2007 Pacific hurricane season? I strongly think it is the latter. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:29, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It had more than brief mentions in newspapers. It had full articles written on it in major news agencies like MSNBC and the Associated Press. Of course, the storm was notable as a named tropical cyclone. Tropical cyclones are one of the most widely-covered topics in the media, and have become particularly notable as being associated with global warming. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 22:35, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- When I said "brief mentions", I should clarify. The storm was only written about because most *all* tropical cyclones are written about. The AP source you cite in the article only has 80 words on it, and that was while the storm was active. 80 words, from a few AP stories on the day it was active, would be considered brief by most people. Are there any sources that mention the storm after it dissipated? Saying the following is vague, could you clarify? "Of course, the storm was notable as a named tropical cyclone." Was the storm notable only because it was named? If the storm occurred but wasn't named, would it be as notable? ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:42, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No, if the storm was not named, it would not have been notable. Why is that relevant? It was named, and then it became notable. All subjects are notable for a reason. Also, yes, it has received coverage in reliable sources after it dissipated. The TCR, NCDC, and other documents. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 22:45, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The naming is hugely relevant! The point about the naming is that it is arbitrary, done by officials behind a desk with some data. Hurricane Katrina would've been just as notable if it wasn't named; it would've been written about just as much. For storms elsewhere in the world (take Delta 05, or even Vamei for an example), sometimes named storms were written about even if they weren't known to be a storm by the public. You basically agreed it wouldn't be the case for Erick. Its name on the list was why information existed on it, essentially, which is why it should be merged. You listed Erick as appearing in the TCR, the NCDC, and other documents, but its appearance in each of those places was just because it had a name. Whether it is merged or not is not the relevant issue here, but rather its potential to be merged, hence making it instable, which roots back to my opposition to this becoming a featured article. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:57, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Your oppose is still not actionable. As I said, every article has the potential to be merged someday. So by your theory, every article is unstable and thus ineligible to be featured. This article has no greater chance of merge than anything in Category:Low-importance Tropical cyclone articles. Additionally, you're contradicting yourself; a week ago, you stated that you "would be OK with keeping the article", and now you're opposing this FAC because you think it should be merged. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 23:14, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Julian, you're still going on with my reluctant keep for the article, before I thought about it further that maybe this should be merged? You were more than willing to merge the article a few months ago. Regarding to the other articles being merged, sure, maybe "someday" every featured article could be merged. My point is that this article could be merged today, without losing any information. That is very obviously not true for any of the other articles up for FAC at the moment. The oppose may be not be unactionable, but it's still a valid reason for why this article should not be featured. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:24, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That doesn't matter. Every article has the potential to be merged within the next five minutes. Why do you think this article has a greater chance of being merged than anything else? Please, consider the reasons why the article should be kept. If it is merged into 2007 Pacific hurricane season, then we have a huge section for Erick and a tiny section for everything else, even the storms that made landfall. Then, if I expand everything else to give the article appropriate weight, the page will become far too long and bloated. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 00:29, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, it does matter, and I greatly disagree with "Every has the potential to be merged today." There is no chance United States will be merged today. Practically speaking, there is little chance any of the other current FAC's could be merged. If Erick is merged (per my latest test), it would have a two paragraph section, much like that of the sections in the other featured season articles of the basin. That would not make the season too long or bloated, by any means. Therefore, as I've said before, this article could easily be merged, hence my opposition. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:37, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That doesn't matter. Every article has the potential to be merged within the next five minutes. Why do you think this article has a greater chance of being merged than anything else? Please, consider the reasons why the article should be kept. If it is merged into 2007 Pacific hurricane season, then we have a huge section for Erick and a tiny section for everything else, even the storms that made landfall. Then, if I expand everything else to give the article appropriate weight, the page will become far too long and bloated. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 00:29, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Julian, you're still going on with my reluctant keep for the article, before I thought about it further that maybe this should be merged? You were more than willing to merge the article a few months ago. Regarding to the other articles being merged, sure, maybe "someday" every featured article could be merged. My point is that this article could be merged today, without losing any information. That is very obviously not true for any of the other articles up for FAC at the moment. The oppose may be not be unactionable, but it's still a valid reason for why this article should not be featured. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:24, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Your oppose is still not actionable. As I said, every article has the potential to be merged someday. So by your theory, every article is unstable and thus ineligible to be featured. This article has no greater chance of merge than anything in Category:Low-importance Tropical cyclone articles. Additionally, you're contradicting yourself; a week ago, you stated that you "would be OK with keeping the article", and now you're opposing this FAC because you think it should be merged. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 23:14, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The naming is hugely relevant! The point about the naming is that it is arbitrary, done by officials behind a desk with some data. Hurricane Katrina would've been just as notable if it wasn't named; it would've been written about just as much. For storms elsewhere in the world (take Delta 05, or even Vamei for an example), sometimes named storms were written about even if they weren't known to be a storm by the public. You basically agreed it wouldn't be the case for Erick. Its name on the list was why information existed on it, essentially, which is why it should be merged. You listed Erick as appearing in the TCR, the NCDC, and other documents, but its appearance in each of those places was just because it had a name. Whether it is merged or not is not the relevant issue here, but rather its potential to be merged, hence making it instable, which roots back to my opposition to this becoming a featured article. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:57, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No, if the storm was not named, it would not have been notable. Why is that relevant? It was named, and then it became notable. All subjects are notable for a reason. Also, yes, it has received coverage in reliable sources after it dissipated. The TCR, NCDC, and other documents. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 22:45, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- When I said "brief mentions", I should clarify. The storm was only written about because most *all* tropical cyclones are written about. The AP source you cite in the article only has 80 words on it, and that was while the storm was active. 80 words, from a few AP stories on the day it was active, would be considered brief by most people. Are there any sources that mention the storm after it dissipated? Saying the following is vague, could you clarify? "Of course, the storm was notable as a named tropical cyclone." Was the storm notable only because it was named? If the storm occurred but wasn't named, would it be as notable? ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:42, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It had more than brief mentions in newspapers. It had full articles written on it in major news agencies like MSNBC and the Associated Press. Of course, the storm was notable as a named tropical cyclone. Tropical cyclones are one of the most widely-covered topics in the media, and have become particularly notable as being associated with global warming. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 22:35, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That's your opinion; I personally think it did not have "substantial coverage in reliable sources" (other than brief mentions in newspapers while it was active, and a few NOAA/NHC documents). WP:MERGE lists "context needed" as a reason for merging, which begs me to ask: was the storm notable on its own, as a random bunch of clouds that didn't affect anyone, or was it notable because it was named and part of the 2007 Pacific hurricane season? I strongly think it is the latter. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:29, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That doesn't make much sense, as the article clearly meets the notability criteria. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 22:19, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- As I said before, the articles can't be merged, due to the season being so active, and that it's already featured. This article could fit easily in the 2007 PHS season article, since it's not featured and there wasn't as much information involved with the season. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:12, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Notability is not inherited. Thus, being an active season does not make the storms within it more notable than anything else. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 21:41, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Neither of those 2005 FA's could be merged, due to the season article being so record-breaking (not to mention featured already). I won't comment on the road one. The point is that this article could be merged very easily, but those, not so much. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:52, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Examples of current FAs that are shorter than Erick: Hurricane Irene (2005), 2005 Azores subtropical storm, New York State Route 373. Sure, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, but this shows that articles of 10 kb aren't unprecedented at FAC, so there's no higher chance of this being merged than many other nominations. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 19:31, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Unlike any other article might being merged, I don't think any other FAC's could be merged as easily this one, as the tests have shown. And, no, I didn't "vote" to keep the article. The edit summary said "keep", and the actual edit showed it was a reluctant keep. Just because it was a reluctant keep, doesn't mean I would oppose it being merged. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:24, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Any article might be merged. Also, FWIW, you voted to keep the article. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 19:10, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Logically, if the article could be merged, then it would fail the stability criterion. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:59, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, but this oppose is not actionable. It is not up to FAC to decide whether an article should be merged; instead, FAC should try to determine whether an article meets the FA criteria. Is there anything about the article that does not meet the criteria? –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 18:53, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- ← A couple of points here. First, here is a comprehensive merge tests that uses all suitable information. If merged, Erick's section would be four paragraphs long—2 paragraphs longer than the section for Henriette, a landfalling hurricane. Would you want the section on a minor tropical storm to be longer than the one on a deadly hurricane? –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 00:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That's completely against the purpose of merging. When you merge, you take the relevant facts and merge, not copy and paste the entire article. Compare to my test from earlier. That is a very rough merge of the article, and it could easily be trimmed a bit further (without removing important info) to prevent it from being longer than the other articles. I've said all I can say on this. The article could be easily merged, thus making it unstable. I maintain my oppose. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:36, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- As well, I maintain my stance that this oppose is not actionable, and a merge is not a viable option. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:43, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That's completely against the purpose of merging. When you merge, you take the relevant facts and merge, not copy and paste the entire article. Compare to my test from earlier. That is a very rough merge of the article, and it could easily be trimmed a bit further (without removing important info) to prevent it from being longer than the other articles. I've said all I can say on this. The article could be easily merged, thus making it unstable. I maintain my oppose. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:36, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. It looks to me as if the article should be merged with the storm season article. Re Geometry Guy's comment above: I don't regard this as a deletionist position as I don't think the content should be deleted; I just don't see the value in having a separate article on this storm. I am not opposing on this basis, as I don't see anything in the FA criteria that would let me do so; I would probably oppose if there were such a criterion. Mike Christie (talk) 02:09, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Just of note, it has been explained above why this article should remain separate. Thanks for the comments, –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 02:10, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I see two reasons above: the WikiProject decision on whether to have separate articles, which I have respect for but don't feel is binding on FAC; and undue weight, which I don't agree with because it would, if I understand correctly, reflect the fact that the other storms are not yet treated with as much detail, but could be in the future. Mike Christie (talk) 02:34, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Just of note, it has been explained above why this article should remain separate. Thanks for the comments, –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 02:10, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, all of the storms of the season have as much, if not more, information available as Erick does. The content simply hasn't been added yet. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 02:46, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I tend to agree with Juliancolton that merging has problems. One is that if this much attention is given to one of the most boring storms of the season, proportionately larger attention should be given to the more interesting ones. The result is likely to be a bloated article. I think summary style is helpful here, but I don't see why each daughter article should aim at FAC. That's appropriate for the storms about which there is something interesting to say, but not for all of them. Geometry guy 20:09, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, all of the storms of the season have as much, if not more, information available as Erick does. The content simply hasn't been added yet. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 02:46, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Dabs in the toolbox. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:40, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Somebody moved pascal (unit) to pascal (pressure) recently, and the link was hardcoded into the infobox's code, causing the dab to be used automatically in all articles with {{Infobox Hurricane}}. I've fixed that. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 18:51, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - it passes all of the criteria, regardless of length. I doubt this will ever go on the main page as it is; short. However, I have no qualms about giving it that little star in the corner. Side note: Merging is out of the question. Article is verifiable, so therefore is notable. RockManQReview me 02:35, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
KeepI mean Support. Meets criteria. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 03:23, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Not sure if it matters, but I added an external links section with some documents on the storm. Hopefully this clears up any concerns about whether the article meets notability requirements. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 19:09, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support- because the article statisfies all the FA criteria. There is nothing in the criteria about minimum length or opportunities for merging and since nothing in the article contravenes Wikipedia pollicies I support this candidate. Graham Colm Talk 17:05, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/9.0: Live Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Legal disputes over the Harry Potter series
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 03:08, 29 September 2008 [45].
Decipherment of rongorongo
This was part of a longer article, Rongorongo, that was split in two during that article's FA nomination and review. Rongorongo is now FA and appeared as the daily FA on 2008 August 23. The main issue remaining at the time of the split for this half of the original article was that the section on Pozdniakov did not assign the global references to each paragraph and claim; that has now been done. kwami (talk) 22:44, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - Interesting, very interesting; Harvard citations. In the lead:
- "the lack of context such as illustrations in which to interpret the texts" - this could be phrased better; I had to read it twice to understand.
- "and so may not correspond well to the tablets either." - "so" is not necessary here.
- "Since the idea was proposed by Butinov and Knorozov in the 1950s, perhaps a majority of researchers have taken the line that..." - "perhaps" a majority of researchers?
- "For those who believed it to be writing, most assumed it was logographic" - "For those... most..." isn't correct.
- "irregular pieces of wood, sometimes driftwood," - I'm sorry? Is driftwood not wood as well?
- "outline appearance" - "outline" is not an adjective.
- attributive noun (though I'd welcome an adjective if you can think of one). kwami (talk)
- I was thinking simply of "outlined", though "characteristic" would have to be changed to "characteristically". Nousernamesleft (talk) 23:41, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- attributive noun (though I'd welcome an adjective if you can think of one). kwami (talk)
- "human, plant, artifact, and geometric forms" - Firstly, why is artifact linked? Secondly, I'm fairly sure that "artifact forms" doesn't make sense.
- "and are now scattered in..." I'm not sure why "scattered" is necessary; indeed, it seems not to convey the museum and private collection idea well. I suggest "and are now in various..."
- those who have tried studying the texts have expressed frustration that they are scattered across the world in twos and threes. kwami (talk)
- Fair enough. Nousernamesleft (talk) 23:41, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- those who have tried studying the texts have expressed frustration that they are scattered across the world in twos and threes. kwami (talk)
- "None remain on Easter Island." - best merged with the previous sentence.
- "in the Smithsonian, R and S." - the comma needs to be a semicolon.
- no, that wouldn't make sense. kwami (talk)
- Another goof on my part. Nousernamesleft (talk) 23:41, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- no, that wouldn't make sense. kwami (talk)
Working my way through the article. More later. Nousernamesleft (talk) 00:49, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Responded. One more comment on the lead: Why is "vast majority" in quotes? It reads like scare quotes from where I stand. If it's a direct quote, then a source should be given, but I don't think a fact like that needs to be a direct quote. Nousernamesleft (talk) 23:44, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
More comments - The prose is engaging; a swift reading of the text didn't yield much, though I probably missed many awkward or ungrammatical phrasings.
- "Metoro to decipher four of the tablets by then in his possession" - "by then" is completely unnecessary.
- "including
someEuropean words" - redundancy. - "There are a number of objections to Fischer's approach:" - Clearly, there are "a number" of them. This could be phrased as "Objections to Fischer's approach exist:" or something similar.
- "he dug up
someyam shoots..." same as above. - "From this he deduced that rongorongo is essentially a syllabary with possibly some logographs " - doesn't read well. Suggest "...a syllabary, possibly with..."
Nousernamesleft (talk) 23:56, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, None Left. (Hey, if you spelled your name "Nouser Namesleft" /ˈnaʊzɚ ˈnɑːmɨslɛft/, people would scratch their heads over your nationality. "Namesleft" sounds vaguely Slavic.) All done, except for "a number", which is simply common phrasing and IM-not-so-HO flows better. (It's also left over from the other principal editor of this article, whose contribution gets whittled down the more I work on it. I'd like this to read as if it were written by both of us, not just me, and in several places I've tried to preserve the character of his wording.) kwami (talk) 00:40, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Authentic rongorongo texts are written in alternating directions, a system called reverse boustrophedon.. rongorongo is written as reverse boustrophedon, but written in alternating directions just defines "normal" boustrophedon. jimfbleak (talk) 16:32, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- okay, changed to "specifically, in a system called reverse boustrophedon." kwami (talk) 18:31, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by jimfbleak
Rapanui – needs linking or explaining. The next (also unlinked) occurrence is Rapa Nui. Is this something different?
- (Pozdniakov and Pozdniakov 2007:5) etc. I found this disrupted the reading, normally these sources are relegated to notes with an in-line link except where essential
- This follows the formatting of the main article when it passed FAC. I find it disrupting to relegate the sources to notes, because I then need to follow each one to see if there's anything there worth reading. kwami (talk)
- OK, fair enough - Jim
The glyphs themselves have a characteristically outlined appearance. – The glyphs are typically outlines?
- except for the two tablets in the Smithsonian collection, R and S. - Why are texts in a US museum inaccessible?
- No idea. You'd think a state institution funded by taxes would be accessible. I can't even find a copyrighted photo of tablet S that post-dates 1890, when it was acquired by the Smithsonian. kwami (talk)
- Fine, just wondered - Jim
- Fanciful decipherments – formatting error in para 3
doesn't - (in Sound values para 2) is too informal
- References - please assure me that capitalising authors accords with MOS.
Foreign language texts need (in German) etc
jimfbleak (talk) 06:41, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The article title implies that rongorongo has been deciphered. But it hasn't. Suggested title: Attempts to decipher rongorongo or Rongorongo decipherment attempts. --Ettrig (talk) 07:27, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Not really. First, decipherment is a process. Many of the refs quoted here are of the opinion that a start has been made to decipherment. Secondly, the word 'decipherment' is often used for a proposal, regardless of whether one accepts it, rather as 'a grammar' is used for a book on grammar. They speak of Fischer's decipherment being spurious, for example. By that definition, there have been dozens of decipherments of rongorongo. kwami (talk) 08:15, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Choess & Legoktm tried doing something—I'm not sure what—and left a mess, so after trying to fix it I ended up reverting them. Please let me know if it had anything to do with the FAN. kwami (talk) 01:13, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
ARGH! Your notes section is full of bare links and numbered links. Bare numbers that are external links need to be formatted with at least a title. If the links are being used as sources, they need to give title, publisher and last access date at the very least.
- Otherwise sources look good, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:08, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, they look kinda funny with the forced formatting, but is that what's needed? kwami (talk) 23:47, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- To me, they look better. More importantly, they not fulfill the MOS. If they are being used as sources, you will need publishers and last access dates, but if they are informational links, you're fine now. I quite honestly wouldn't have the first clue if they were being used either way, so I'm striking my concerns! Ealdgyth - Talk 01:26, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, they look kinda funny with the forced formatting, but is that what's needed? kwami (talk) 23:47, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Can you explore the accessibility issues with the folks who use screen readers? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:19, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've taken care of most of the color issues (I have one in-line graphic I need to add), but I have no idea how to add a caption for the blind. kwami (talk) 09:31, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Color issues should be finished. As for captions, what is appropriate? I've started, but stopped because I'm getting into OR. When we have a glyph as inline text, is "glyph 280" acceptable as a caption, or do I need to say what it is? The problem with that is that it will almost always be OR. kwami (talk) 20:07, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done? I've added minimal descriptions ("glyph 6" etc.) to all inline images in order to avoid OR. kwami (talk) 21:06, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ottava
- Oppose - there are problems with the lead. Too many paragraphs, little structure, and some sentences seem isolated. The last sentence also works as a "see also" section, although there is a wikilink in the first line which covers that. The last paragraph of "Kudrjavtsev et al." section is indented. Any particular reason? There is a large gap in "Barthel" section, which seems inappropriate. Some of your "left" images are at the left, some are indented from the left. Why the discrepancy? It seems inappropriate that "Objections" section is formated as a bulleted list. Why is the final quote in a quote box at the end of the section instead of normal blockquote formatting? Why is the distribution chart in "Statistical evidence" centered and disrupting the formatting? Same with vocalic chart in "Sound values" section. Your reference system with years but without names is severely problematic. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:38, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Your only real objection (as opposed to a few quick fixes) appears to be the intro. I'd appreciate it if you were specific in what you object to. Other than that, there was only one small fix I could make based on your comments.
- Kudrjavtsev: the last paragraph is a caption. All captions are all indented.
- (waiting for clarification of caption formatting guidelines, which aren't at wiki:captions)
Barthel: I don't see any gap.
All 'left' images are indented.
- Bulleted list: What would you prefer? Numbers are irrelevant, and a slew of unmarked paragraphs is hard to follow.
- (waiting for explanation)kwami (talk) 22:57, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Bulleted lists have a specific reason in MoS, and I don't think the section fulfills that idea. If it is meant to be a simple list of items and not true encyclopedic section, then it can stay. However, it read as if it was supposed to be a standard section. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:59, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- All I can find is "Do not use lists if a passage reads easily using plain paragraphs." In this case, it is important to mark whose opinions are whose, so a bulleted list is appropriate. The reader needs to be able to scan through them: if they dismiss one author's opinion, with a list format they can skip to the next. Without that visual cue, it's easy to get lost. kwami (talk) 07:00, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "In this case, it is important to mark whose opinions are whose, so a bulleted list is appropriate." I've seen no precedence for such and I would like further examples before I can accept the use of it in this way. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:03, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- All I can find is "Do not use lists if a passage reads easily using plain paragraphs." In this case, it is important to mark whose opinions are whose, so a bulleted list is appropriate. The reader needs to be able to scan through them: if they dismiss one author's opinion, with a list format they can skip to the next. Without that visual cue, it's easy to get lost. kwami (talk) 07:00, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Bulleted lists have a specific reason in MoS, and I don't think the section fulfills that idea. If it is meant to be a simple list of items and not true encyclopedic section, then it can stay. However, it read as if it was supposed to be a standard section. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:59, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- (waiting for explanation)kwami (talk) 22:57, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All long quotes are box quotes. Why should that one be any different?- Already follows MoS. kwami (talk) 22:57, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I looked and I don't see MoS allowing this. I responded to it below. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:59, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Box quotes are specifically allowed: "Block quotes can be enclosed between a pair of <blockquote>...</blockquote> HTML tags, or {{quotation}} or {{quote}} can be used." kwami (talk) 07:00, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- None of those are quotes in a box. They are block quotes. Not box quotes. Please stop confusing the two. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:03, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You're the one confusing the two. You say {{quotation}} templates violate the MOS, but the MOS specifically allows {{quotation}}. kwami (talk) 18:28, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Except that there is a mix and match of various templates. Pick one formatting. Also, I believe that the wording to claim that the "quote" box is a type of blockquote is incorrect, because it does not actually indent from the right side as a block quote would require. Also, the "quotation" box is not a blockquote, because MoS describes such used as images, hence the background and the big black line surrounding it. Block quotes have a clear academic term, and there is only one type of block quote. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:21, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You're the one confusing the two. You say {{quotation}} templates violate the MOS, but the MOS specifically allows {{quotation}}. kwami (talk) 18:28, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- None of those are quotes in a box. They are block quotes. Not box quotes. Please stop confusing the two. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:03, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Box quotes are specifically allowed: "Block quotes can be enclosed between a pair of <blockquote>...</blockquote> HTML tags, or {{quotation}} or {{quote}} can be used." kwami (talk) 07:00, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I looked and I don't see MoS allowing this. I responded to it below. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:59, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Already follows MoS. kwami (talk) 22:57, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
How do the charts disrupt the formatting? They look fine to me.
Should I really repeat "(Pozdniakov and Pozdniakov 2007:xx)" twenty times? I was trying to avoid that.- Asked at relevant MoS page.[46] Waiting for answer. kwami (talk)
- I repeat the author names in all of my works, and I don't know of any scholarly works that only use a year. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:59, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- MOS agrees with you, and I have added the full names. I'm still waiting to see if there's a way to abbreviate them, but will leave them as is until then. kwami (talk) 07:00, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You could switch to an inline citation style, which would turn them into foot noted numbers. Or, you could get rid of the years except in authors with multiple works. I don't know really. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:03, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- MOS agrees with you, and I have added the full names. I'm still waiting to see if there's a way to abbreviate them, but will leave them as is until then. kwami (talk) 07:00, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I repeat the author names in all of my works, and I don't know of any scholarly works that only use a year. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:59, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Asked at relevant MoS page.[46] Waiting for answer. kwami (talk)
- Actually, my "real objection" happens to be every single point, as each are a violation of specific principles that would deny this being an FA. If you don't see the gap, then I would suggest you to change your formatting so you can, as it shows up quite clearly on multiple computers that I have used. All long quotations shouldn't be in box quotes either. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:07, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Quotations - requires use of blockquotes. Also, if "the last paragraph is a caption" then I would recommend a formatting overhaul, because this is not in standard caption formatting, especially with this not being within an image tag. These are just the glaringly obvious MoS violations, and this needs a much closer look to find the rest. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:11, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, it looks like the MoS has changed; the box quotes weren't an issue when the first half of this article went through FAC.
- Quotations - requires use of blockquotes. Also, if "the last paragraph is a caption" then I would recommend a formatting overhaul, because this is not in standard caption formatting, especially with this not being within an image tag. These are just the glaringly obvious MoS violations, and this needs a much closer look to find the rest. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:11, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Can you point out the caption formatting guidelines? There's nothing I can see at MoS or Wikipedia:Captions. kwami (talk)
- They show how to caption images. All captions are part of the image wiki formatting. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:59, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That's for thumbs. They say nothing about how to format figures, so the issue is simply undefined in the MOS. kwami (talk) 07:00, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- We should seek to have it defined. I would be interested in opinions on the matter from the MoS participants. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:03, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That's for thumbs. They say nothing about how to format figures, so the issue is simply undefined in the MOS. kwami (talk) 07:00, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- They show how to caption images. All captions are part of the image wiki formatting. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:59, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Can you point out the caption formatting guidelines? There's nothing I can see at MoS or Wikipedia:Captions. kwami (talk)
- I wanted to note - no where in the MoS does it allow for images to be indented via "::" marks, which many of these images are. I would recommend a closer analysis on this. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:12, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It's not a violation of the MoS to do things that the MoS doesn't cover. This wasn't an objection for the previous FAN, which was quite long and involved.
- You haven't answered some of my questions, and I can't address your objections if you don't explain what they are. Everything else is done. kwami (talk) 19:34, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "It's not a violation of the MoS to do things that the MoS doesn't cover" I think we disagree, especially when it comes to an FA page. The MoS tells you how to perform a function. An alternate way should be passed through MoS first. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:59, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I wanted to note - no where in the MoS does it allow for images to be indented via "::" marks, which many of these images are. I would recommend a closer analysis on this. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:12, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, we do disagree. Many things are absent from the MOS because there is no agreement on a standard. To claim that such omissions define the standard violates the MOS consensus. Other things are not listed because they do not matter, or have never come up. Claiming that something violates the MOS because it's never been addressed is prognostication, which we shouldn't be doing in a FAC. If the MOS addresses this issue in the future, we can of course correct it then. But they haven't had a negative reaction to current FAs that have this formatting. As for my reasons, indenting the figures and their captions, besides being default typesetting in millions of print books, keeps the wiki layout even with the quotations. The MOS does encourage common formatting across an article, which this does, and common formatting with the main rongorongo article is also a prime style consideration. kwami (talk) 07:00, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If there is no agreement on the standard, then there is no consensus for the action. FA's have to follow consensus, and if agreement comes up later, then the item will have to be removed. It is better to be safe than have your page go up for FAR. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:03, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have to agree with kwami on this one. There is no prohibition on using indents to format content within articles. If the editors of the article have consensus to use indents, that is perfectly valid. Where the MoS is silent article editors are free to make their own decisions. Remember that "consensus" doesn't always have to mean consensus of everyone on Wikipedia. If the MoS has nothing to say and kwami is the only(?) significant author, he can have a consensus of 1. Kaldari (talk) 18:34, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Just so I don't take too much credit, this was mostly written (and formatted) while part of rongorongo. It was split off during the FAC of the main article due to length concerns. kwami (talk) 18:57, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "There is no prohibition on using indents to format content within articles" This isn't a talk page where double indentations (or more) are acceptible, and indenting images causes many formatting problems. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:24, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have to agree with kwami on this one. There is no prohibition on using indents to format content within articles. If the editors of the article have consensus to use indents, that is perfectly valid. Where the MoS is silent article editors are free to make their own decisions. Remember that "consensus" doesn't always have to mean consensus of everyone on Wikipedia. If the MoS has nothing to say and kwami is the only(?) significant author, he can have a consensus of 1. Kaldari (talk) 18:34, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If there is no agreement on the standard, then there is no consensus for the action. FA's have to follow consensus, and if agreement comes up later, then the item will have to be removed. It is better to be safe than have your page go up for FAR. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:03, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, we do disagree. Many things are absent from the MOS because there is no agreement on a standard. To claim that such omissions define the standard violates the MOS consensus. Other things are not listed because they do not matter, or have never come up. Claiming that something violates the MOS because it's never been addressed is prognostication, which we shouldn't be doing in a FAC. If the MOS addresses this issue in the future, we can of course correct it then. But they haven't had a negative reaction to current FAs that have this formatting. As for my reasons, indenting the figures and their captions, besides being default typesetting in millions of print books, keeps the wiki layout even with the quotations. The MOS does encourage common formatting across an article, which this does, and common formatting with the main rongorongo article is also a prime style consideration. kwami (talk) 07:00, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Commented earlier, having read again, and reviewed all comments above, I now think that it is of FA standard. jimfbleak (talk) 17:10, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. It would be nice (although certainly not required) to see this article use the grouped references feature, so that all of the notes and references are organized as footnotes rather than appearing inline. See Mary Shelley for a nice example of how this could be done. Kaldari (talk) 18:25, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hey, that's nice! I was looking for something like that when rongorongo went through FAC. There was a big argument about having to lump everything in together in a confusing mishmash, because the MOS didn't specifically allow a split in-line/footnote approach, and the only other possibility anyone came up with was hand numbering the explanatory notes, which of course would be ridiculous to maintain. I wish I'd known about this earlier. I'll look into converting both articles. kwami (talk) 18:45, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Looks like we can't have ref citations in the footnotes, but that's not a big deal. kwami (talk) 23:34, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Although the article reads as quite opinionated and would benefit from further inline citations for the sake of confirmation, I cannot in fact point to specific comments which are unreasonable or counter-intuitive. Minor point: should "Konstantin Pozdniakov" be in bold? DrKiernan (talk) 08:12, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That was only done because he is not mentioned until well into the section that bears his name. I thought it was clearer to draw attention to his name when it was first mentioned. But there may be a better way to do it, or perhaps it simply isn't necessary. kwami (talk) 08:34, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - I am not sure whether the objections above have been satisfied as some of them I cannot find in the MoS. I feel the editor of the article has worked hard to address all concerns. I find the article fascinating. Minor point: I do not like the sentence "It is not surprising that information provided by an uncooperative and increasingly drunk informant should be compromised." To me it appears unencyclopedic. —Mattisse (Talk) 18:29, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Article seems to be in good shape now. Can't find any other suggestions to make for improvement. Kaldari (talk) 20:28, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: I cannot decipher how the unformatted notes (example: 4.^ "The Apai text".) correspond to the Bibliography entries; where do I find the publisher, last accessdate, etc? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:49, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - comment: there are several opportunities in the lead for bolding; should this not be done? —Anonymous DissidentTalk 07:10, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:Raul654 22:48, 7 October 2008 [47].
Samuel Johnson
- Nominator(s): Ottava Rima (talk), User:Malleus Fatuorum (talk) and User:SandyGeorgia (talk)
I'm nominating this article for featured article because it use to look like this. After 700 edits, and an addition of citations from many major scholarly sources on the subject, an extensive peer review, and constant reviewing on the talk page with full scale MoS check, plus a full scale image and ref check, I think it may be FA standards. If not, well ... User:Malleus Fatuorum and User:SandyGeorgia performed over 400 quality edits in the push to FA status, examining every minute detail with punctuation, grammar, language and MoS. They are the main reason why this is not simply a GA, and why I feel confident that this is FA quality. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:39, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Summary of declarations on talk. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:57, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment During a conversation with his biographer, Johnson became infuriated at the suggestion that Berkeley's idealism could not be refuted. In his anger, Johnson powerfully stomped a nearby stone and proclaimed of Berkeley's theory, "I refute it thus!"[200]
Presumably this interpretation of Johnson's emotions is based on a misunderstanding of the word alacrity? 86.44.27.122 (talk) 02:57, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, it was based on the language in a contemporary biography, but I think that reference was dropped when reffing to Boswell directly. Regardless, I reworked the paragraph, as it was too long for something explained in the quote box. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:29, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- What makes the following sources reliable?
http://www.samueljohnson.com/index.html? (Why not quote it directly?) It's probably a marginal source, but it kinda stands out in the otherwise excellent sources used!
- Otherwise sources look good. Links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:02, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think it is only hosting the primary source and nothing else. It was just nice to link to an online version. If you want, I can replace it with a hard copy and page numbers. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:47, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It's a courtesy link; in this case, it's probably better to cite the hardcopy, and add that link to External links. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:50, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I removed the links and put in books. I thought it would be best to use biographers who string those line together as to avoid any possible "OR" claims. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:34, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Good compromise, that site works REALLY well as an external link. Perfect for it. And let me compliment again on the excellent quality of the sourcing! Ealdgyth - Talk 16:09, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. This gave me an opportunity to buy three biographies that I didn't have and really forced me to spread out in order to accommodate a few people that were wondering why ___ was relied on while ____ was not. I think, out of the original list of random biographies grouped at the bottom of the page, there were only 4 works not chosen (but no major biographer was left out, and all other writers were given prominence on individual article pages that related). Johnson has a huge amount of criticism, and I think every single piece will make it in some form on Wikipedia after I am done. :D Ottava Rima (talk) 16:31, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Good compromise, that site works REALLY well as an external link. Perfect for it. And let me compliment again on the excellent quality of the sourcing! Ealdgyth - Talk 16:09, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think it is only hosting the primary source and nothing else. It was just nice to link to an online version. If you want, I can replace it with a hard copy and page numbers. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:47, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments on images
Image:Dictionary2.jpg and Image:Dictionary3.jpg - Could you add the complete publication information to the source field? I would, but the image resolution isn't high enough.Any images that are in the PD could be moved to Commons. It would be nice to share these images with other projects.
I look forward to reading and reviewing this article! Awadewit (talk) 20:13, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Added the printing information. I think Elcobbola might be able to help with the Commons. I tend to stick to Wikipedia. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:28, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I will see what I can do about copying them over in a week or so, after I return from my vacation. Awadewit (talk) 13:56, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Elcobbola is working on them. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:21, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- File Upload Bot is my hero. I moved all but one
(Image:Pembroke_Lodge.jpg - the bot, apparently, doesn't move previous versions and we'd want the original, uncropped version; I'm too lazy to do it manually at the moment).ЭLСОВВОLД talk 15:25, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- File Upload Bot is my hero. I moved all but one
- Elcobbola is working on them. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:21, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I will see what I can do about copying them over in a week or so, after I return from my vacation. Awadewit (talk) 13:56, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- (comment) I commend the nominator for the effort put into this article, but the level of citation in this article is excessive. I
opposethe nomination on the grounds that the over-citation is a hindrance to reading and suggests that wikipedia is a sentence-paraphrasing service. (Any critical reader without a background in wikipedia's politics would be very confused by the amount of attribution; the article would have her believe that "Johnson was born in the family home above his father's bookshop, near Market Square in Lichfield, across from St. Mary's Church" is a point of contention. It's like putting a question mark in the reader's mind after each sentence.) Specifically, you do not need to cite commonly attainable elements of biography, yet essentially every sentence in Biography has a citation. I am not opposing to make a point, and if this objection is felt baseless, that's fine. However, I will note that the article does not follow one of the core policies of wikipedia, attribution—while the policy clearly notes what we consider worthy of citation, no discretion in attribution is apparent here. Whiskeydog (talk) 02:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply] - I should also add that if the consensus of editors is that removing citations would make the article worse, then don't (but admit that you've adopted an a priori position). I have not written the above in the "do this to get me to support" sense. It's an opinion, and one that is I think supported by the policies of wikipedia, regardless of how far citation is carried as a matter of practice. Certainly I won't be commenting further unless others feel the position is warranted, and specifics become worth discussing. Whiskeydog (talk) 03:39, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't feel that this objection is actionable. The WP citation policy sets a minimum standard of what should be cited, not a maximum. There are advantages to a heavily cited article:
- Allows the reader to find the source for the information so they can read more information about that particular tidbit.
- Ensures that there is no confusion on what a particular citation covers. If a controversial fact is embedded in a paragraph, we don't want to confuse readers into thinking that the whole paragraph comes from that source, when it might only be relevant to the controverisal fact
- Makes verifiability a whole lot easier. Anyone can add any information to the article; with the sources clearly noted for every piece of information it is much easier to see if someone is adding unsourced information, fake information, or is twisting the source to say something completely different.
- Karanacs (talk) 13:35, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Just to add - I don't consider any information on an individual who has been dead for 200 years as "common knowledge". Such assumptions would have Washington chop down cherry trees and other confused tidbits thrown in. I believe that dates and locations before 1900 always need a citation. These are the things most easily confused. This is just my thoughts on the matter. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:48, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Considering there is a mythology surrounding Johnson, it is particularly important to separate fact from fiction. Having extensive citations allows readers to verify these distinctions for themselves and increases Wikipedia's legitimacy as reference source. Awadewit (talk) 13:54, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Going with that theme - FAs never really needed to be cited. Then ten cites were enough. Then twenty or so were enough. What if this progresses to the point that in the year 2120, Wikipedia would require at least 240 citations? Well, we are in luck. Always thinking about the future. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 14:08, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK then. I don't get it, and every time I make another effort to "get", or comment on, the way wikipedia works now, it's clear that there are just entirely different mental sets involved. So, there is no point in me participating in FAC—I refuse to sanction the idea that this death by a thousand citations is a good thing. We've got people who complain that every tiny MoS "violation" affects readability, but no one seems to mind a footnote-stop cutting every sentence off from every other. Karanacs' arguments I've seen before in many places, and I find them entirely hypothetical, conjuring a reader who interacts with the article in a way that I highly doubt is realistic. Those who agree with my position don't come here, and so the self-selection continues. Anyway, over and out. Whiskeydog (talk) 00:28, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- A lot of people agree with your mentality, Whiskeydog. There is an old tradition of it. It would probably be easy to have a version of such pages that is "clean" that someone could click on and would be the same text without any of the citations. Who knows. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:42, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Calling it an "old tradition" is a classic device of rhetoric (I don't know which 'un). Now, how about I introduce a new measure of citation density? Samuel Johnson actually has 378 footnotes, over 10,519 words=0.036 citations/word. If the average sentence is 17 words (17-sentence), we have 0.61 citations/17-sentence. Let's compare that to the recent FA Tulip mania, surely an article whose abstract humanities overlay requires good citation. With 73 footnotes and 3545 words, it has 0.35 citations/17-sentence. I am proposing a limit of 0.40 citations per 17-sentence. Please add this to the featured article criteria forthwith—See?—all I had to do was please the quants. Now it's actionable, dude. Whiskeydog (talk) 04:13, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think the comparison made above does not reflect the academic reality, nor deal with comprehensiveness. Furthermore, his numbers are clearly off, as they have no regard to material that needs to be cited, nor does it acknowledge that some sentences run over multiple lines while sharing the same citation in order pages, which this does not have such instances. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:24, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm unclear whether this is a general comment about FAs, or a specific criticism of this article. If the former, then the issue would propbably be better raised on the talk page. If the latter, can you provide some examples of spurious citations Whiskeydog? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 15:30, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Whiskeydog was specific enough that his point can be applied to this candidacy, and to be fair he did make disclaimers. Ironically though, the second next cmt kind of underpins his argument about self selection, but also reinforces Malleus words "would propbably be better raised on the talk page" : It the treatment of titles is a small point, fix or put a note on talk; if it is substantial enough to posit as a deal breaker on FAC and is followed by five or six posts; well then we might as well all go home. I suggest this broad conversation is taken else where, either to this FACs talk, or better, the FAC talk. Ceoil sláinte 15:48, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I left "facetious" in the edit comment for my last comment; I'm sorry that still wasn't enough. (Neither my sense of style nor humour translates here well enough, and the last place I should therefore hang out is FAC.) Good luck with the nomination! For the tallying, I've struck the oppose and put 'comment'. Oh, and thanks SandyGeorgia for the citation reduction; definite improvement! Whiskeydog (talk) 19:30, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Calling it an "old tradition" is a classic device of rhetoric (I don't know which 'un). Now, how about I introduce a new measure of citation density? Samuel Johnson actually has 378 footnotes, over 10,519 words=0.036 citations/word. If the average sentence is 17 words (17-sentence), we have 0.61 citations/17-sentence. Let's compare that to the recent FA Tulip mania, surely an article whose abstract humanities overlay requires good citation. With 73 footnotes and 3545 words, it has 0.35 citations/17-sentence. I am proposing a limit of 0.40 citations per 17-sentence. Please add this to the featured article criteria forthwith—See?—all I had to do was please the quants. Now it's actionable, dude. Whiskeydog (talk) 04:13, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- A lot of people agree with your mentality, Whiskeydog. There is an old tradition of it. It would probably be easy to have a version of such pages that is "clean" that someone could click on and would be the same text without any of the citations. Who knows. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:42, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK then. I don't get it, and every time I make another effort to "get", or comment on, the way wikipedia works now, it's clear that there are just entirely different mental sets involved. So, there is no point in me participating in FAC—I refuse to sanction the idea that this death by a thousand citations is a good thing. We've got people who complain that every tiny MoS "violation" affects readability, but no one seems to mind a footnote-stop cutting every sentence off from every other. Karanacs' arguments I've seen before in many places, and I find them entirely hypothetical, conjuring a reader who interacts with the article in a way that I highly doubt is realistic. Those who agree with my position don't come here, and so the self-selection continues. Anyway, over and out. Whiskeydog (talk) 00:28, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Going with that theme - FAs never really needed to be cited. Then ten cites were enough. Then twenty or so were enough. What if this progresses to the point that in the year 2120, Wikipedia would require at least 240 citations? Well, we are in luck. Always thinking about the future. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 14:08, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the prompt, Whiskeydog! Tony1 did a small bit of copyediting (finding little to change) and Ottava Rima reduced some of the citation.[48] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:17, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Working on coalescing and combining refs from the same page range, saving these versions for posterity:
- SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:33, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Considering there is a mythology surrounding Johnson, it is particularly important to separate fact from fiction. Having extensive citations allows readers to verify these distinctions for themselves and increases Wikipedia's legitimacy as reference source. Awadewit (talk) 13:54, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 13:48, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: MOS:BETTER advises against honorifics; there are several instances of "Dr" and "Mrs" that might best be dispensed (if not used within a quote, obviously). ЭLСОВВОLД talk 21:06, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The only instances of "Dr Johnson" are in quotes (he was/is often referred to as Dr Johnson); I'll leave Mrs Thrale to Ottava. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:13, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I haven't a clue on what to do about that - there is the Henry and Hester, which could have the repeated first names. Other uses: 1) "Mrs Harriotts", it sounded silly having Harriotts, as it could have been mistaken as the plural, but this could be dropped. 2) "a young woman, Miss Morris," I don't know her first name and Wain/Bate lists her as "Miss". 3) "Miss Frances Reynolds" to note the feminine reading of the name. 4) "Rev. Strahan" George Strahan. 5) "Dr Warren" Thomas Warren. 6) "Dr John Paradise" John Paradise. 7) "Dr Delap" John Delap. 8) "Dr Samuel Swynfen" Samuel Swynfen. 9) "Dr Christopher Nugent" Christopher Nugent. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:30, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Here is the MoS page that seems to discuss it in-depth. If someone could help make heads or tales of this, I would be much obliged. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:33, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It's not a big deal. If you think removing the honorifics will cause confusion to the reader, go ahead and leave them in. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 21:34, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- In the case of Dr Johnson, that MoS page states: "In the cases of certain historic persons, an honorific is so commonly attached to their names that it should be included." That would be the case for Johnson. With the Thrales, we have the two of them (him and her). With Frances, again, it's because Frances could be a him, etc. There are a few cases where we need to WP:IAR here, similar to the Reagan and Clinton articles, where it was difficult to distinguish him and her and consensus was to ignore naming conventions. I'm not sure, though, why we need the honorifics on Strahan, Warren, Paradise, or Delap. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:43, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I removed excessive titles, rewrote a section, and hopefully there is no problem. When a title mattered, I just put the job behind the name. The MoS seems to say that if two people of the same name are in the same sentence, to use the full for the first name, and then the first name for the next, but that seems rather confusion. I don't know. I put possible changes up. Others can respond on what they think. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:54, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Diff. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:58, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I removed excessive titles, rewrote a section, and hopefully there is no problem. When a title mattered, I just put the job behind the name. The MoS seems to say that if two people of the same name are in the same sentence, to use the full for the first name, and then the first name for the next, but that seems rather confusion. I don't know. I put possible changes up. Others can respond on what they think. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:54, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- In the case of Dr Johnson, that MoS page states: "In the cases of certain historic persons, an honorific is so commonly attached to their names that it should be included." That would be the case for Johnson. With the Thrales, we have the two of them (him and her). With Frances, again, it's because Frances could be a him, etc. There are a few cases where we need to WP:IAR here, similar to the Reagan and Clinton articles, where it was difficult to distinguish him and her and consensus was to ignore naming conventions. I'm not sure, though, why we need the honorifics on Strahan, Warren, Paradise, or Delap. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:43, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It's not a big deal. If you think removing the honorifics will cause confusion to the reader, go ahead and leave them in. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 21:34, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Involved support - I was so excited to see the improvement in this article that I copyedited it last month and again just before the FAC nomination. Fine work, and certainly meets FAC standards. Maralia (talk) 21:42, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- However, you were only ranked 5th. :D Thanks for all the work. I don't care if this page makes FA or not, I just like strong, critical pages. The FA thing is just a nod for Sandy. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:46, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose I am very sorry to have to oppose this article, but it is far from comprehensive. It has an excellent and thorough description of Johnson's life but only a cursory discussion of Johnson's works and no discussion of his influence on other authors. A reader coming to this page will not leave it understanding what kind of a writer Johnson was. Considering Johnson is notable for being an author, this is a serious omission.
The first part of the "character sketch" section should be deleted - it is a just a list.The "Depression" section should be broken up and inserted into the article where appropriate.
I find the TS section out of all proportion to the article. I would put most of this information in a footnote. The article should indeed have a paragraph on this posthumous diagnosis, but hardly an entire section. SJ is famous for being an author, not for being ill, however, the space devoted in this article to his depression and his TS makes it seem like he is more famous for being ill than for being a writer.- There is no discussion of SJ's artistic legacy - how did his writing affect other authors? He was a huge influence on 18th-century literature and the scope of that influence is not explained in this article at all. (Johnson's influence on novel-writing in the second-half of the 18th-century was enormous, for example.)
There are many places in the article where IDs have been left out that would help a reader unfamiliar with the 18th century. Here are three examples, but a review of the entire article is necessary:
- Explaining the title years later, he told his friend Joshua Reynolds - Explain to the reader who Reynolds is.
- Samuel Richardson, enjoying the essays greatly, questioned the publisher as to who wrote the works; only he and a few of Johnson's friends were told of Johnson's authorship - Explain to the reader who Richardson is.
- However, Johnson slowed on the work as the months passed, and he told Charles Burney in December 1757 that it would take him until the following March to complete it. - Explain to the reader who Burney is.
- There are many places in the article where the use of quotation marks is confusing. Here are some examples, but the entire article needs to be reviewed for this problem:
- Michael was the first bookseller of "reputation" in the community, having opened a parchment factory which produced book bindings - Why is "reputation" in quotation marks? It is unclear whether this is an actual quotation or whether these are scare quotes.
- When Johnson turned four, he was sent to a nearby "school" on Dam Street, where "Dame" Anne Oliver, the proprietor, gave lessons to young children in the living-room of a cottage. - Why are "school" and "Dame" in quotation marks?
- However, John Taylor, his friend, dismissed this "praise" because Johnson's father had already published the translation before Johnson sent a copy to Pope - Why is "praise" in quotation marks?
- Ottava has done more work on these; this should be addressed now. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:26, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have a long list of prose copyedits. If the editors would like to go through them, I will put them on the article talk page. For me, the primary problem with the article is that it does not describe Johnson's works in any detail or his literary legacy. For models, see other recent biographies of authors that have become FAs: Emily Dickinson, Honoré de Balzac, and Edgar Allan Poe. Awadewit (talk) 04:43, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 1. "only a cursory discussion of Johnson's works" You are under a mistaken impression that "comprehensive" means something that is not covered by "summary style". Please see Wikipedia:Summary style. 2. "no discussion of his influence on other authors" There is nothing in a biography that would demand such, and Wikipedia policy has always put such in the other pages, with a link back. Its not a two way street, as the redundancy is frowned upon. 3. "Considering Johnson is notable for being an author" You are quite mistaken. 4. "it is a just a list." Your definition of "a list" does not match either the Wikipedia definition nor the dictionary. 5. "be broken up and inserted into the article where appropriate" Except that it is a general overview based on a long history of psycho analysis and not part of biographical history. This was clear from reading the section. 5. "I find the TS section out of all proportion to the article." Then I would suggest you read WP:WEIGHT which would require it to be of such a significant size. 6. "There is no discussion of SJ's artistic legacy - how did his writing affect other authors? " This is a biography page, not a works page. If a work affected someone else, then that work is discussed. A writer is not a work, and a work is not a writer, and the two are separated on Wikipedia. 6. "Explain to the reader who Reynolds is." Joshua Reynolds is his friend in that context, and thats all that is necessary in that context. This is already mentioned in the article. 7. "Explain to the reader who Richardson is." Except that it doesn't matter, and would be adding in unnecessary and redundant text. MoS explains what the "wikilinks" are for here. 8. "Explain to the reader who Burney is" Same as above. 9. "Why is "reputation" in quotation marks? " All subjective terminology would be in quotes, but this is from a source, so it wouldn't matter. 10. "Why are "school" and "Dame" in quotation marks?" Because it wasn't an actual school and she wasn't an actual dame. 11. " Why is "praise" in quotation marks?" Because its a quote.
- I would suggest you read up on the MoS and clear up your confusion about "comprehensive". You made this same mistake during the Tolkien review. MoS is clear on what links are there for: "Internal links add to the cohesion and utility of Wikipedia by allowing readers to deepen their understanding of a topic by conveniently accessing other articles." Ottava Rima (talk) 05:57, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 1. "Comprehensive" means "neglects no major facts or details" and "accurately represent[s] the relevant body of published knowledge" (see WP:FA?). This article does not do that, considering there is so much scholarship on Johnson that focuses on his works and a large portion of Johnson's importance relates to him as an author. I am arguing that the general reader does not get a good picture of Johnson the author from this article - they do not really know what he wrote about or how he wrote. I understand very well what comprehensiveness means. Links are for deepening understanding, not acquiring it in the first place. Awadewit (talk) 06:29, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 2. Influence on other authors is a key part of Johnson's legacy and all of the recent author biography FAs have had this. There is no Wikipedia policy that discusses this topic. It has simply become common practice because it makes sense to include this crucial topic in the biography.
- 3. SJ is probably the most important English author of the 18th century. He is indeed notable for being an author. That this idea is not conveyed in the article is really scandalous. Let us not be silly here.
- 4. It is a prose list.
- 5. The section contains elements that would make much more sense in the chronological history, as they are told in date order. Besides, SJ didn't exist in a static depressive state, as the section makes clear, so it would make more sense to tell the story of his depressive episodes within the biography itself.
- 6-8. You need to explain who these 18th-century figures are so that it is clear what having a friend like Reynolds means. You cannot assume the reader understands this. This goes for all of these examples.
- 9-11. Why it is necessary to quote individual words? It is very confusing and suggests scare quotes. Awadewit (talk) 06:29, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 1. "neglects no major facts or details", see "summary style" and "wikilinks" above to show that it is not "neglected". We have these for a reason. Each major work is mentioned, and all given lines according to their weight. Everything else goes onto the subpages, as per MoS and WP:WEIGHT. 2. Prove the influence. You can't. There is a difference from respect and influence. The only possible thing that could have "influenced" anyone, would be his biographies, which are already given a significant portion of the page. 3. "SJ is probably the most important English author of the 18th century" I guess Pope and Swift can pack up their bags and go home, because they no longer matter. Poor Fielding and Richardson, you no longer matter. Wordsworth, your style was interesting, but obviously wasn't good enough. Good bye you Federalists, your contributions don't matter, just like you Signers. 4. Still need to rely on an actual definition of a list. 5. WP:WEIGHT - you cannot apply later diagnosis upon a history. That would also violation WP:OR. Can you find a concern that isn't in direct opposition of Wikipedia guidelines or policies? 6. See the Wikilinks entry of MoS above to show that I don't. 9. "Why it is necessary to quote individual words?" Are you serious? Ottava Rima (talk) 13:29, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have made my arguments known. People can take them or leave them. Awadewit (talk) 14:18, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Unfortunately, I have had change my statement to "strong oppose" because the discussion below has revealed the editor is utterly resistant to changing the article to include a discussion of Johnson's works or his legacy which he could easily research in works of literary criticism. His claim that Johnson was not an influential author is false (anyone on Wikipedia can check the Jane Austen article for one example of an author Johnson influenced) and anyone with access to the MLA database can see the long list of articles and books that connect Johnson to multiple literary traditions. The fact that the Wikipedia article on Johnson is inferior to the Britannica article, which is written by Robert Folkenflik, a world-famous expert on Johnson, is of course to be expected. However, we could certainly do better by including a discussion of Johnson's works and his legacy. I would like to point out that Folkenflik himself reads the Wikipedia article on Johnson frequently and has commented about its quality on a listserv that I belong to of 18th-century professors. Wouldn't it be nice if the next time he looked at it, it was beyond reproach? Awadewit (talk) 18:51, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have made my arguments known. People can take them or leave them. Awadewit (talk) 14:18, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have reread the article because I know that substantial changes have been made. I am impressed with expansion with the "Legacy" section, however, I am still opposing because I feel that the article's coverage of Johnson's works, particularly their themes and style, is insufficient and the use of quotations is confusing:
- I'm happy to see that more information has been added on the works. However, I still do not feel that this information is well-integrated yet. For example, Rasselas is happily now no longer just described as a philosophical novella: The Idler did not take up all of Johnson's time, and he was able to publish his philosophical novella Rasselas on 19 April 1759. The "little story book", as Johnson described it, describes the life of Prince Rasselas and Nekayah, his sister, who are kept in a place called the Happy Valley. The Happy Valley in the land Abyssinia was a place in which there were no problems and any desire was quickly satisfied. However, the constant pleasure does not lead to satisfaction, and Rasselas escapes, with the help of a philosopher named Imlac, explores the world to witness how all aspects of society and life in the outside world are filled with suffering. They return to Abyssinia, but do not wish to return to state of constantly fulfilled pleasures found in the Happy Valley.[136] Rasselas was written in one week to pay for his mother's funeral, and to settle her debts; it became so popular that there was a new English edition of the work almost every year. It appeared in many works of fiction through characters reading the book, such as Charlotte Brontë 's Jane Eyre, Elizabeth Gaskell's Cranford and Nathaniel Hawthorne's The House of the Seven Gables. Its fame was not limited to English-speaking nations, and Rasselas was immediately translated into five different languages (French, Dutch, German, Russian and Italian), and later into another nine.[137] - The plot, themes, and publication history of every work cannot be described. It takes a lot of time to figure out what to discuss and what to leave out about the works. This article has a lot of details right now that would be hard for the general reader to stitch together into a coherent narrative. I believe that this article can be absolutely wonderful, but I think it still needs some more careful pruning and perhaps slight reorganization. Just adding these details doesn't quite cut it. We have to make sure that general readers come away with a sense of Johnson the man and Johnson the writer. Right now, the details are just clouding the general picture.
- There needs to be broader discussion of the themes of Johnson's works, either in a separate section or in a coherent way that the general reader can understand in the biography. In the "character sketch" section, the article states that "Johnson's Christian morality permeated his works", however, the reader would not necessarily know this from the descriptions of the works and the statement ends there, not offering an explanation.
- There needs to be a broader discussion of the style of Johnson's writing - what kind of a poet was he, for example? What poetic genres did he write in? How did he write as a critic? Was he acerbic, compassionate, etc.? We need to give readers an idea of his language.
- Confusing quotations:
- There are still isolated words in quotations that are confusing. For example: When Johnson turned four, he was sent to a nearby "school" on Dam Street, where "Dame" Anne Oliver, the proprietor, gave lessons to young children in the living-room of a cottage. Johnson especially enjoyed his time with Dame Oliver, later remembering her fondly, and when he reached the age of six, he was sent to a retired shoemaker to continue his education. - Why are common words like "school" and "Dame" in quotation marks? If these words are important to quote, why is "Dame" not quoted later? This tendency to overquote and not make it clear who is speaking occurs throughout the article. Rarely are these quotations cited - the reader does not know from whom the quotations are coming.
- Ottava has done some work on this, should be addressed now. All text has always been cited, although we did substantially reduce the citation density at the request of other reviewers. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:26, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The interviewers were surprised that "a School-boy should know Macrobius", and he was accepted immediately - Here is an example of why it is important to know who said the quotation - is this a twentieth-century biographer's description or a direct quote from the interviewers? The reader is not entirely sure.
- No longer in the article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:26, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This first love was not to last, and Johnson later claimed to Boswell, "She was the first woman with whom I was in love. It dropped out of my head imperceptibly, but she and I shall always have a kindness for each other." - Is this a quotation from Boswell's biography that is quoted in a twentieth-century Johnson biography? If so, the note should read "Qtd. in..." - There are numerous examples of this problem. Awadewit (talk) 19:54, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No longer in the article, AFAICT. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:26, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 1) "school" and "Dame" are in quotes because they are in quotes in every biography on Johnson. It wasn't an actual school. She wasn't an actual Dame. These were the names given to them by others. It is common to put such things in quote. 2) "Rarely are these quotations cited" All quotes are cited. "is this a twentieth-century biographer's description or a direct quote from the interviewers" This would not matter, because this is a fact of a situation and not dialogue. Only dialogue or opinion needs to have direct citations, and this is per MLA and Chicago method standards. The reader is easily able to determine where the quote came from because of the reference at the end. Anything else would be redundant and unnecessary per both methods detailed. 3) "If so, the note should read" Or not, because it is not necessary per standard convention. 4) "There needs to be a broader discussion of the style of Johnson's writing - what kind of a poet was he, for example?" The use of the term "imitation" and other such words are already there to describe these. If you think they are inadequate, then it really can't be helped. 5) "There needs to be broader discussion of the themes of Johnson's works" Utterly impossible. Not even Donald Greene who had his whole career to discuss such things was capable of doing so. Not only is there not a unifying theme between his tens of thousands of writings, that if you did attempt to even talk about more than one or two individual works at a time, you'd fill books. His politics is discussed. His religion is discussed. You ask for what does not have a basis. Why isn't Shakespeare's themes there? He only wrote a handful of plays! Johnson wrote for 60 years, having regular news paper columns, diary entries, speeches, books, prefaces, etc etc. Each different. Each varying. And yet Shakespeare is an FA without such. Your standards do not match. 6) "The plot, themes, and publication history of every work cannot be described." And yet you asked for it. With these contradictions, I believe that your oppose has no grounds. Therefore, you will not be given any further responses from me until you sort out your own thoughts and apply actual FA standards based on actual comparable FAs. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:32, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 1) The quotes are unclear to readers. Awadewit (talk) 22:10, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 2) I gave examples of quotations that have unclear sources - it is important to know if a quotation comes from an eighteenth-century source or a twentieth-century source or the reader will be misled.
- 4-6) It is not utterly impossible to discuss the themes of an author's multiplicity of works. See, for example, Balzac. The problem with this article is that it is overwhelmed by details, as I have tried to illustrate, and the lay reader cannot understand the kind of writer Johnson was. Other reviewers agree with this assessment. To be clear, at no time did I ask you to add a plot summary, publication history, and theme description of every work. There are many ways to describe the works of an author in an article. I am pointing out that, so far, the integration and coverage of that topic is not up to FA standards. Considering all of the other recent author biographies that have become FAs have had significant discussions of the author's works in some way, this article is not comparable. (And please do not compare this article to William Shakespeare, which has sections on "Plays", "Poems", and "Style", just the kinds of sections that this article is lacking.) Awadewit (talk) 22:10, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 1) "he quotes are unclear to readers." Then I would wonder at their ability to read English. Sorry, but this is a very old and very standard convention. People even use "air quotes" while speaking. We have a "simple English" Wikipedia for those who may not understand these standard conventions. Every major biographer uses them. 2) You gave examples, but that does not mean you are correct. Once again, standard English conventions do not support you. 4-6) I'm sorry, but you couldn't even talk about Proserpine in context of others who were cited as being compared to Shelley's version, so your objection is absolutely absurd. Shakespeare is the only acceptible comparasion to Johnson. Shakespeare is the only one even close to Johnson in mass. Shakespeare does not have what you want, therefore, what you want does not qualify under FA standards. Don't like it? Try to put Shakespeare up for an FAR review with your objection, if you truly believe what you are claiming. Otherwise, your objections are pure nonsense, as I have already demonstrated above. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:18, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- And Awadewit, for you to have an objection under 1b, you have to prove that there is a detail missing, then you have to prove that it qualifies under "major". You have done none of this. You can't even put forth specifics. Therefore, you cannot even begin to claim that your oppose is actionable. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:21, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 1) "he quotes are unclear to readers." Then I would wonder at their ability to read English. Sorry, but this is a very old and very standard convention. People even use "air quotes" while speaking. We have a "simple English" Wikipedia for those who may not understand these standard conventions. Every major biographer uses them. 2) You gave examples, but that does not mean you are correct. Once again, standard English conventions do not support you. 4-6) I'm sorry, but you couldn't even talk about Proserpine in context of others who were cited as being compared to Shelley's version, so your objection is absolutely absurd. Shakespeare is the only acceptible comparasion to Johnson. Shakespeare is the only one even close to Johnson in mass. Shakespeare does not have what you want, therefore, what you want does not qualify under FA standards. Don't like it? Try to put Shakespeare up for an FAR review with your objection, if you truly believe what you are claiming. Otherwise, your objections are pure nonsense, as I have already demonstrated above. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:18, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- On the point about the quotes - I am trying to point out where the article fails to communicate to readers. If you do not want to improve the article, so be it. Continuing to discuss this matter is apparently fruitless.
- Should be addressed now; please let us know if you see other instances. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:26, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You misunderstood my point about William Shakespeare. If Samuel Johnson had as much discussion of Johnson's works as the Shakespeare article does about Shakespeare's works, I would have no trouble supporting it. I reiterate my point - please note that the Shakespeare article has extensive sections on Shakespeare's plays, poems, and style. The Samuel Johnson article does not have any such sections or their equivalent.
- You wrote on my talk page "you are still treating him [Samuel Johnson] as an author, when he was a in fact a scholar". As far as I know, Johnson scholarship does not support this distinction. Samuel Johnson was a writer - he wrote in many genres. Those works were influential and need to be talked about. He is taught in literature classes. Scholars in English departments have made careers studying him. The introduction to the Cambridge Companion on Samuel Johnson calls him "a great English writer" (2) and describes him and his influence this way: "The attention he has received is the mark of many things: it is a sign that his personality continues to fascinate, that his works continue to speak to the experience of modern people, and that he and his works represent a complex cultural authority that provide some readers with deep,intelligent instances of moral, social, and literary insight, while symbolizing for others the worst excesses of absolutist and ethnocentric rationalism prodcued by the Enlightenment." (1) Notice the emphasis on both his person and his works. I do not understand how your claim regarding Johnson can be reconciled with this summary statement, which accurately reflects the scholarship of this entire volume.
- The Cambridge Companion to Samuel Johnson discusses Samuel Johnson's styles and themes in a broad fashion, something you have claimed is impossible. In fact, the introduction states that this is the entire purpose of the work: "the essays are designed to approach single works and general themes in Johnson's thinking from a number of different yet complementary persepctives" (2). I will give sample quotes from Howard Weinbrot's essay entitled "Johnson's poetry" to illustrate how this is possible and some ideas that are missing from the article:
- Helpful summary of poetic genres: "Samuel Johnson's preeminence rests upon the extraordinary intellectual and moral achievements within his prose. That truth universally acknowledged nonetheless admits a complementary truth - Johnson is a great prose writer in part because he is a great poet. Johnson wrote poetry throughout his life....He wrote a blank-verse tragedy, translations, adaptations of classical poems, satires, love poems, poems warning of the dangers of love, elegies, epitaphs, comic parodies, serious prayers, odes, sonnets, meditations on his inner psychological and spiritual being, and in the nature of things, poems that combined several of these genres." (34)
- Theme: "The intimate relationship between the general and the particular, the author and the reader, informs much of Johnsons's literary theory and poetic practice" (35)
- Style: "Johnson also uses questions pleasurably to involve us in his poem and in our own education" (35)
- Style and theme: "Johnson's poems frequently exhort us to examine, look, mark, observe, remark, see, survey, and then apply the fruits of discovery to our actual lives." (36) - "Johnson figuratively embodies his empiricism" (36)
- Theme: One aspect of Johnson's inner and outer empirical world was its Christianity that so improved classical pagansim" (36-37)
- Style and theme: Johnson's poems "often engage readers in their own education and encourage response and partnership with a humane, experienced guide. He urges toward a specific moral end while also recognizing variations in the path we may choose to take." (37)
Using works like the Cambridge Companion helps us write articles for the lay person because Johnson scholars, who have spent years introducing Johnson to lay audiences, have already done so. As you can see, these kinds of statements would give general readers a much better idea of what kind of poet Johnson was than the fragmented, overly detailed information currently in the article. In addition, they would provide an overview of the kind of poet Johnson was. However this is just a beginning. The Cambridge Companion has essays on several topics that would be helpful, such as Johnson's essays, his conversation, important themes such as Christianity and imperialism, etc. Awadewit (talk) 21:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 1) "I am trying to point out where the article fails to communicate to readers" And it is a common English feature, so you would have to not understand basic English to get it. It comes up in news papers every day. It comes up in books. It comes up in coversation. Its a standard English convention. 2) "had as much discussion of Johnson's works" Johnson's actually has more discussion than what Shakespeare's page does. It also has a lot more history, because we actually have biographies of Johnson and know who he was. 3) "Johnson scholarship does not support this distinction. Samuel Johnson was a writer - he wrote in many genres" Then once again, you have proved your ignorance. Being a writer is not being an author. Writing news stories, essays, and other prose works is not the same as a major poet or a major novelist. 4) "he Cambridge Companion to Samuel Johnson discusses Samuel Johnson's styles and themes" Before you start making stuff up, please realize that I actually own this work and used it in the biography. Chapter one "Extraordinary ordinary: the life of Samuel Johnson" biography. Chapter two "Johnson and the arts of conversation" biography. Chapter three "Johnson's poetry" which does not say much beyond what is already in the page. Chapter four "Johnson, the essay, and The Rambler, a 14 page chapter which talks about his newspaper career, which has already been discussed in the page. Chapter five "Johnson and the condition of women" biography. Chapter six, "Johnson's Dictionary" part biography, part talking about the origins of the Dictionary which is covered in the page. Chapter seven, "Johnson's politics" part biography and covers what is already discussed in the page. Chapter eight "Johnson and imperialism" is the same as seven. Chapter nine, "The skepticism of Rasselas" does not cover anything beyond what is already discussed and is mostly biography. Chapter ten, "Shakespeare: Johnson's poet of nature" covered in the page. Chapter eleven, "Life and literature in Johnson's Lives of the Poets" already covered in the page. Chapter twelve, "Johnson's Christian thought", already covered in the page. Chapter thirteen, "From China to Peru": Johnson in the traveled world" biography. Chapter fourteen, "Letters about nothing": Johnsona nd epistolar writing" biography.
- So far, all you did was prove that most of the essays on Johnson deal with his biography. Furthermore, your quotes are not objective, but opinions thrown out without any proof and cannot be used in a biography. Now, if you have any real arguments, please provide them. The fact that you didn't even acknowledge that the Cambridge Companion is used is utterly disturbing to say the least because it reveals that you didn't even bother to look at the article, which negates any claims you may have to object. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:23, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, Awadewit, having a 10 page essay in the Cambridge Companion does not mean that it falls under weight. There are three other books that collect essays on Johnson, and there are plenty more works on his biography. You still haven't been able to acknowledge WP:WEIGHT, which clearly says "and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each". Also, your statement above seems not to acknowledge that there is a big section on his philosophy of poetry which goes into his two major poems. That reinforces the fact that you haven't actually bothered to read the page. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:26, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Johnson scholarship does not support this distinction. Samuel Johnson was a writer - he wrote in many genres" Then once again, you have proved your ignorance. Being a writer is not being an author. Writing news stories, essays, and other prose works is not the same as a major poet or a major novelist. - This distinction is not supported by the scholarship. There is no distinction between "writer" and "author" in literary criticism. There was in the 1950s, but we are no longer in the 1950s. You are insisting upon imposing your theoretical views of literary criticism onto the article. This is a departure from WP:NPOV, which states that we have to represent all major views in the article. Clearly, that Johnson is a major English writer in many genres is an important view of scholars, found throughout Johnson scholarship.
- Before you start making stuff up, please realize that I actually own this work and used it in the biography. - These personal attacks do not become you. I used the CC because I saw it in the "References" and thought you would have easy access to it, because the essays are written by important scholars in the field and represent a diversity of opinion. The book therefore is not just the opinion of one scholar, but a collection of the most important voices in Johnson scholarship. Do not cavalierly dismiss it under WP:WEIGHT, especially when you have used it yourself.
- You have apparently misunderstood my argument. You list many things that are covered in the article. Mentioning them is not enough. I gave the example of poetry, where the general statements regarding Johnson's style and themes were missing from the article, but could easily be added. Rather than try to the improve the article so that it is easier to follow, however, you chose to dispute every single thing I said.
- Furthermore, your quotes are not objective, but opinions thrown out without any proof and cannot be used in a biography. - These are quotations from scholars - we use literary critics' arguments in articles about writers.
- A great read! Excellently written! Therefore, I support but I have to stress something I think Awadewit already mentioned. The "legacy" section treats the posthumous works about Johnson, but not his real (artistic) legacy, namely his influence on the next generations of writers. And I think this is a serious flaw that should be taken care of.--Yannismarou (talk) 12:27, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Legacy has been rewritten. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:28, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- And what do you suggest? There is nothing even close to establish his influence. Did someone write a similar dictionary? No. Are there any notable influences within Johnson criticism? No. See, thats the key. The "influenced" has to be notable to Johnson. There isn't a direct influence. No one followed his poems. No one followed Rabelais. Find a notable work that can be said to follow Johnson. The Romantics did their own thing. The Modernists did theirs. Johnson was know as a character. He was known for his biography. All of the criticism out there focuses on this. WP:WEIGHT demands that it is the focus of the article. If you can find a legitimate author who relied on one of Johnson's works to write another important work, please provide proof. Otherwise, stop speculating. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:29, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- There are entire books written on Johnson's influence - I found them in the MLA database last night. See Reception history of Jane Austen for one example of Johnson's influence. Awadewit (talk) 14:18, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm sorry, but reception history is not the biography page of Jane Austen, and thus you contradict yourself. Furthermore, WP:WEIGHT would not have such a section. This is a biography. The pertinent sections where his life caused works has been cited to those of significant sources. Furthermore, Jane Austen is a novelist, so you are comparing apples to oranges. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:34, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- And if someone may think that she has a point that Johnson influenced Austen, there is no such critical claim found. There are only comparisons, which are not influences, nor do they have weight. Even her own page says "Bradley emphasised Austen's ties to Samuel Johnson, arguing that she was a moralist as well as humourist", but doesn't have a real influence. They are connected only through analogy, and analogy is not critical. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:41, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, you have your own section. Don't hijack what others say. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:35, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- (I believe I am allowed to comment anywhere on the FAC.) Here is Johnson on the Jane Austen page. I am not comparing apples to oranges - you asked for a writer who was influenced by Johnson. I gave you one that is cited here on Wikipedia. There are many more, of course. Writers of all stripes were influenced by Johnson because he was so influential. Awadewit (talk) 14:43, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm sorry, but reception history is not the biography page of Jane Austen, and thus you contradict yourself. Furthermore, WP:WEIGHT would not have such a section. This is a biography. The pertinent sections where his life caused works has been cited to those of significant sources. Furthermore, Jane Austen is a novelist, so you are comparing apples to oranges. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:34, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- There are entire books written on Johnson's influence - I found them in the MLA database last night. See Reception history of Jane Austen for one example of Johnson's influence. Awadewit (talk) 14:18, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support for a beautifully written, comprehensive encyclopaedic article. It is a difficult task to write about Johnson without it turning into a book—such was his life and influence. What the editors have achieved here is awesome; one of, if not the best encyclopaedia articles about him. The FA process is about presenting our best work to the world and setting the paradigm for content, style and quality to less-experienced editors. This is the best FAC I have seen this year. My congratulations go to all editors involved. Graham Colm Talk 14:38, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. I am sure that the many editors will greatly appreciate those kind words. A lot of people have been putting in a lot of effort and its nice for it to be recognized.Ottava Rima (talk) 14:41, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Question for all reviewers - To achieve consensus on this point, I would like to know whether the community believes that an author article should discuss the author's works in some depth (e.g. Balzac and Mary Shelley) or if mentioning each one in a few lines is enough (e.g. Samuel Johnson). I have argued above that the Johnson style is too cursory since authors are notable for their writings and Ottava Rima has argued that readers can read other articles and this style is WP:SS). Please weigh in on this important issue. Thanks. Awadewit (talk) 14:49, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Should this be on the talk page and not here? Graham Colm Talk 14:56, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Are you done making a point? Does this disruption have a purpose? London has three lines devoted to it. The Dictionary has a whole section. The Rambler a paragraph. Vanity has 3 lines and Irene has 5. His Shakespeare and his Lives have multiple lines and paragraphs. The Idler has a paragraph as with his The Journal of a Tour to the Hebrides. His political pamphlets are given two paragraphs between them all. Every major work has a section devoted to them as per their WP:WEIGHT. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:00, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'm no literary scholar, but I think Awadewit has a fair point. I'm in no position to judge whether Johnson's literary works had influence or (apart from the dictionary) were any good. It does strike me that most of the publications are noted in the context of Johnson's life and we learn about the publiciation from an external POV (did it make money, when did he write it, it was translated, etc). We learn very little about the literary work itself. For example, Rasselas is described as a "philosophical novella" but we learn nothing more about its contents. Such things could be written without reading the poems or opening the books. I'm not saying the editors or sources haven't done this, but they might as well not have is the point. We learn a lot about Johnson's character and life, but next to nothing about the literary works themselves.
The "Legacy" section isn't what I would regard as such, for an author: a list of biographies is followed by an "in pop culture" paragraph. If Awadewit is right, and that Johnson's literary works have influenced future writers, then this is the place for that to be covered. The influence of his dictionary on the English language certain deserves mention. Colin°Talk 17:10, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Plot summaries and similar things were reduced based on a few editorial requests during the peer review. It was determined then that there was significant redundancies and that it would take far too much to explain the plots. By the way, Awadewit isn't right about him "influencing" future writers, as he wasn't a fiction writer or regarded as such. He was a scholar and a "character". And those biographies were some of the most celebrated works of the 18th century, so I wouldn't dismiss them so easily. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:17, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Just because Johnson wasn't primarily known as a fiction writer doesn't mean he didn't influence fiction writers (that is fallacious reasoning). Besides, it was Johnson's moral essays that influenced novelists. Johnson also influenced other essayists and poets. His influence was profound. I urge all those that have access to the online Encyclopedia Britannica to compare Wikipedia's article to theirs. Unfortunately, at the moment, theirs is superior because it explains the kind of writer Johnson was (comparing the section on Rasselas is particularly illuminating). If anyone would like me to send them a copy of the EB article, I will. Just email me. Awadewit (talk) 17:36, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Prove it. You only have statements in which people compared the two. This does not mean that one influenced the other. And if you think Britannica's is superior, then why not stick to reading that one. They are allowed Original Research. They are allowed baseless conjecture. They are allowed to do whatever they want about weight. And they don't have to rely on sources. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:56, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Austen scholars have indeed said that Johnson was an influence on Austen. The citations are there for you to follow if you do not believe me. I am offering Britannica as a comparison because we often do that, to check the quality of our articles, since EB is written by actual scholars. I'm not sure what you think is baseless conjecture in that article or why you think the Britannica doesn't rely on solid scholarship, but I'm not sure others will agree with you. EB is usually viewed a relatively decent tertiary source. Awadewit (talk) 18:05, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Austen scholars" - you still haven't proven this. As I pointed out, the closest thing was not actual evidence. Furthermore, you haven't actually provided real citations. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:13, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- They are in the article. Read the article and check the citations in the footnotes yourself. Or, you can see all the notes we have amassed on Austen here. They contain statements such as Austen "developed her mastery of balance from Pope, wisdom and playfulness from Johnson, gendered power-struggle and immediacy of representation from Richardson, relation of books to life from Lennox, pathos and domesticity from Cowper, grotesque from Burney" (203) from Isobel Grundy in the Cambridge Companion (there are many more). This is tiring. Here are some citations from Johnson's influence and legacy. I have only done the briefest survey of the MLA database (and only books) as there are thousands of Johnson entries, and here are three different books on Johnson's importance, dealing with three different areas:
- "Austen scholars" - you still haven't proven this. As I pointed out, the closest thing was not actual evidence. Furthermore, you haven't actually provided real citations. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:13, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Austen scholars have indeed said that Johnson was an influence on Austen. The citations are there for you to follow if you do not believe me. I am offering Britannica as a comparison because we often do that, to check the quality of our articles, since EB is written by actual scholars. I'm not sure what you think is baseless conjecture in that article or why you think the Britannica doesn't rely on solid scholarship, but I'm not sure others will agree with you. EB is usually viewed a relatively decent tertiary source. Awadewit (talk) 18:05, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Prove it. You only have statements in which people compared the two. This does not mean that one influenced the other. And if you think Britannica's is superior, then why not stick to reading that one. They are allowed Original Research. They are allowed baseless conjecture. They are allowed to do whatever they want about weight. And they don't have to rely on sources. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:56, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Philip Smallwood, Johnson's Critical Presence: Image, History, Judgment
- Nicholas Hudson, Samuel Johnson and the Making of Modern England
- John Needham, The Completest Mode: I. A. Richards and the Continuity of English Literary Criticism
- Just because Johnson wasn't primarily known as a fiction writer doesn't mean he didn't influence fiction writers (that is fallacious reasoning). Besides, it was Johnson's moral essays that influenced novelists. Johnson also influenced other essayists and poets. His influence was profound. I urge all those that have access to the online Encyclopedia Britannica to compare Wikipedia's article to theirs. Unfortunately, at the moment, theirs is superior because it explains the kind of writer Johnson was (comparing the section on Rasselas is particularly illuminating). If anyone would like me to send them a copy of the EB article, I will. Just email me. Awadewit (talk) 17:36, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am not going to do extensive research for this FAC because I don't have the time at the moment since I am on vacation. Awadewit (talk) 18:29, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If you did any research, you would realize that those books don't provide what you think they provide. They discuss Johnson and his works, but not people influenced by Johnson's works. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:40, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- For those wondering - Needham's book is ignored by Donald Greene, who, in 1989, talked about the major contributions to the area of Johnson's studies. Regardless, Needham talks about Johnson in the 18th century. Hudson's work does the same (a quick view at Amazon demonstrates this: "this volume will give you a better appreciation of the author of The Rambler, Rasselas, and Lives of the Poets, by presenting, not 'the Age of Johnson,' but 'Johnson within his Age.'" Albion, Paul Monod ). Note the word "within". The other, Smallwood's work, is a side by side analysis, but does not demonstrate influence, only context. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:45, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- But context is important and these books demonstrate the influence that Johnson had on his society. This is exhausting, OR. There are countless articles and books that demonstrate Johnson influenced other writers in addition to the entire society. This point is not made in the article. You know it and I know it. Do not try to claim that scholars haven't made this point when entire books have been written about it. Awadewit (talk) 18:59, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I recommend you read WP:WEIGHT carefully and then reread Wikipedia:Summary style and Wikipedia:Wikilink#Internal links for why that action cannot be done. Weight must follow the predominant thought by the predominant scholarship, and be given proportion based on the predominant scholarship. In an article on his biography, the stress is placed on his biography. Not for speculation. No section to say "here is what the rest of England looked like in comparison" or anything else. Those works can serve as primers to students needing to learn context. But they are not scholarly works that analysis Johnson's actual connection in a way that deserves more prominence in this biography. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:08, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- But context is important and these books demonstrate the influence that Johnson had on his society. This is exhausting, OR. There are countless articles and books that demonstrate Johnson influenced other writers in addition to the entire society. This point is not made in the article. You know it and I know it. Do not try to claim that scholars haven't made this point when entire books have been written about it. Awadewit (talk) 18:59, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I definately agree with Awadewit: any author at FAC, save perhaps quite recent ones, should cover literary criticism and the author's artistic legacy, based on the scholarly literature. This article does not cite a single source of either type. Biographies are only one type of work that should be used in such an article, nor should the article be weighted based on biographies. The scholarly literature on the author should also be summarised. Biographies provide details about the person's life. Different books and articles analyse the writings and legacy. The more you scream that to even look at such articles would violate undue weight, the more you look completely ignorant of basic facts about academic scholarship. Particularly after Awadewit has pointed you towards books by name that you could use, which you dismissed out of hand as not being covered by biographies! Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 12:23, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Johnson is not "any author", let alone an "author". Regardless, the page doesn't cite a single source dealing with Johnson's works? Are you serious? 1. Clingham, Greg (1997) - deals with Lives of the Poets, 2. Griffin, Dustin (2005) - deals with his political works, 3. Hitchings, Henry (2005) - deals with his dictionary, 4. Lynch, Jack (2003), - also a great essay on Johnson's dictionary, 5. Watkins, W. B. C. (1960), - an important comparative critical work, 6. Weinbrot, Howard D. (1997), - all about Johnson's poetry, 7. The many biographies are all written by literary experts in the field and all contain some critical analysis of works. Greene's work even includes a bibliographical analysis of the critical studies in Johnson from 1970-1989. I don't think you have actually read the page at this point based on what you just stated above. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:02, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Clingham is used to cite this: The work was finished in March 1781 and the whole collection was published in six volumes. As Johnson justified in the advertisement for the work, "my purpose was only to have allotted to every Poet an Advertisement, like those which we find in the French Miscellanies, containing a few dates and a general character. That is the only citation to Clingham. An entire book analysing the Lives to the Poets, and you don't cite a single biot of its analysis, only Johnson's stated intent.
- Griffin: This line was not, as widely believed, about patriotism in general, but the false use of the term "patriotism" by John Stuart, 3rd Earl of Bute (the patriot-minister) and his supporters. Johnson opposed "self-professed Patriots" in general, but valued what he considered "true" patriotism and This line was not, as widely believed, about patriotism in general, but the false use of the term "patriotism" by John Stuart, 3rd Earl of Bute (the patriot-minister) and his supporters. Johnson opposed "self-professed Patriots" in general, but valued what he considered "true" patriotism. Again, a pretty trivial usage.
- Hitchings: Used only for history of dictionaries:
- On the morning of 18 June 1746, over breakfast at the Golden Anchor tavern in London, Johnson signed a contract with William Strahan and associates to produce an authoritative dictionary of the English language. The contract stated that Johnson was to be paid 1,500 guineas (£1,575), ... in instalments based on delivery of manuscript pages; all expenses relating to the project—ink, paper, assistants, etc.—were to be paid for by Johnson
- Robert Cawdrey's Table Alphabeticall, published in 1604, was the first monolingual English dictionary. Again, you have an entire book on the subject, and ignore the content except to fit it into a solely biographical framework.
- Lynch: This is an INTRODUCTION to an edition of the Dictionary. It's used somewhat, (actually far out of proportion to the weight you should give an introduction to a mass-market edition of a book), but, again, no to little discussion of the dictionary itself occurs using it, only the history of its creation.
- Watkins: Not once used to discuss Johnson's works. It may well be an impoprtant comparative work. So why didn't you use it?
- Weinbrot: Used for one sentence that discusses a single poem: "The poem is an imitation of Juvenal's Satire X and seeks to be "the antidote to vain human wishes is non-vain spiritual wishes""
If you even read these works, then you should have actually used them in a significant way in the article. You cannot claim your sourcing is fine because you used major literary analyses if you don't actually use them to provide any literary analysis. Particularly, your claims that you used a major comparative work, Watkins, when you never actually use to cite any comparison whatsoever, is outright fraud on your behalf in your claims about the article.Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 22:55, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Please avoid excess markup, per WP:TALK guidelines. Will someone please remove the markup? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:43, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Got it. Sorry. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 02:49, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've now read the Britannica article, thanks to Awadewit. I now oppose this FAC on the grounds of not being comprehensive and not giving due weight to the areas one would expect in a literary biography. [see below] On three areas (details of his life; description of his character; analysis of his works) this article is over-specific on the first, light on the second and virtually absent on the latter. For example:
- His "Final moments" are covered with great precision as to which dates he was at which locations. The EB article mentions a stroke, his "dread at the prospect of death and judgment, for he feared damnation" and his "late conversion". Does one really need to know "He soon left for Islington to visit George Strahan"?
- The article describes school director Hunter's brutality in an awkward way which leaves the reader wanting for more information. In contrast to the insipid "disatisfied with his education", EB says Hunter's regime "instilled such terror in the young boy" that years later he "trembled" when reminded of it. The EB uses the priceless quotation about Hunter, who "never taught a boy in his life—he whipped and they learned."
- The section on the dictionary mostly covers everything but the dictionary. We get his life while writing it, plus mention of other works he wrote at the same time. In contrast the EB article tells us quite a lot about the dictionary itself.
- I may have missed its mention here, but the EB says Johnson was tall and, latterly, huge and strong. Some physical description is warranted.
- The EB describes him as "the foremost literary figure and the most formidable conversationalist of his time" neither of which are apparent from the article.
- The EB says "Johnson is well remembered for his aphorisms, which contributed to his becoming, after Shakespeare, the most frequently quoted of English writers." Neither of these facts are mentioned here. This is surely a topic for his Legacy section!
- The EB says "Johnson's criticism is, perhaps, the most significant part of his writings." I don't see anything on his literary criticism.
- The EB goes on to say "As a critic and editor, through his Dictionary, his edition of Shakespeare, and his Lives of the Poets in particular, he helped invent what we now call "English Literature."" This bold statement is far stronger than the "he made lasting contributions to English literature" in our lead.
- The EB gives merely one word each to his depression and his TS. I think that, or a footnote as Awadewit suggests, is too little. However, the TS section could spend less time detailing the various 20th century physicians who posthumously diagnosed Johnson. The section tries to prove the case in front of the reader, rather than describe and state the conclusions to which authoratative minds have agreed. The article says Johnson had "signs consistent with several diagnoses in the DSM" yet only gives us one: TS. The wording "It is not without interest that" should be avoided.
- Colin, I can only respond on the TS section, as it's the only section I've worked on and represents the only sources I have access to. I've reworked the section a bit; please have a look. I combined and eliminated some wording as well as mention of specific physicians unless they are known to contemporary readers. The wording "It is not without interest that" is a direct quote from one of the reports; eliminating it will be awkward. I've tried to leave text that satisfies three needs: 1) to demonstrate that Johnson's posthumous diagnosis is as strong as it is precisely because of the writings of Boswell and others, 2) the need to contrast his diagnosis with other speculative and not well accepted posthumous diagnoses (such as Mozart), and 3) to provide the context for understanding his life, work and personality. If EB gives one word each to this, they clearly miss the mark in placing the work of Johnson in the context of contemporary understanding, and we should be aspiring to do a better job than EB has done. Please have a look, but I think that cutting any deeper will eliminate the context we provide that makes this article superior to EB and explains Johnson's life and work in the context of current understanding. We have the opportunity to write a much better article than EB: we should do that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:26, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Further discussion of the Tourette issue on talk. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:36, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Colin, I can only respond on the TS section, as it's the only section I've worked on and represents the only sources I have access to. I've reworked the section a bit; please have a look. I combined and eliminated some wording as well as mention of specific physicians unless they are known to contemporary readers. The wording "It is not without interest that" is a direct quote from one of the reports; eliminating it will be awkward. I've tried to leave text that satisfies three needs: 1) to demonstrate that Johnson's posthumous diagnosis is as strong as it is precisely because of the writings of Boswell and others, 2) the need to contrast his diagnosis with other speculative and not well accepted posthumous diagnoses (such as Mozart), and 3) to provide the context for understanding his life, work and personality. If EB gives one word each to this, they clearly miss the mark in placing the work of Johnson in the context of contemporary understanding, and we should be aspiring to do a better job than EB has done. Please have a look, but I think that cutting any deeper will eliminate the context we provide that makes this article superior to EB and explains Johnson's life and work in the context of current understanding. We have the opportunity to write a much better article than EB: we should do that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:26, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You say (on this FAC discussion) "those biographies were some of the most celebrated works of the 18th century" yet this isn't clear to the reader. Wikilinking them doesn't give them "celebrated" status for every episode of Lost has an article on WP! It is possible to become so familiar with one's subject that one forgets what other people don't know.
- Lastly, the EB covers his literary works in a way that gives the reader a real flavour of what sort of author this was and where his works fit within literature. All I get from this article are dates when and locations where he wrote.
The where and when stuff really doesn't help the general reader and should be trimmed to that which is necessary to build a picture of his life. Spend more time describing Johnson the character and more time on his literature itself, and the reader will come away with a better picture of the man. Colin°Talk
- 1. "this FAC on the grounds of not being comprehensive and not giving due weight to the areas one would expect in a literary biography" Weight is based on criticism, not Genre. Please read WP:WEIGHT. 2. "Does one really need to know "He soon left for Islington to visit George Strahan"?" I'm sorry, you are favouring the vague and inaccurate Britannica account that doesn't give any real understanding of how he died why? 3. "EB says Hunter's regime" Wikipedia doesn't allow Original Research which adds "flavor", otherwise known as "falsities". 4. "The section on the dictionary mostly covers everything but the dictionary." Except that the first three paragraphs contradict this claim. 5. "Some physical description is warranted." Where? When? When did Johnson become tall? When did he become "robust"? Perhaps you are favouring one of the greatest flaws of Britannica. 6. "neither of which are apparent from the article." I guess you didn't read the "Character sketch" section which makes this clear. 7. "Neither of these facts are mentioned here." Wikipedia doesn't allow Original Research. Britannica does. 8. "The EB gives merely one word each to his depression and his TS. " More proof of why the Britannica fails as an encyclopedia. Every major biographer talked about his depression, and every major biography after 1985 talks about his TS. 9. "yet this isn't clear to the reader." Read the second sentence. 10. "Lastly, the EB covers his literary works" The Britannica is not Wikipedia, and has different standards. They ignore criticism to provide a general tool for a childish intellectual understanding. They aren't scholarly. Furthermore, the Britannica works pages completely differently, and if you prefer the Britannica's style, then why bother with Wikipedia? Ottava Rima (talk) 22:49, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 1. Please don't tell me to read WP:WEIGHT. I'm quite familiar with it thank-you and I wasn't referring to it. A biography on a literary figure should spend some time discussing his literature. This article spends virtually none.
- 2. I didn't say I favoured the Britannica article. It's coverage of his death is slight. However, WPs is way too detailed yet somehow misses off aspects the EB found time to mention.
- 3. You are saying the "trembling" and/or quotation is false; that EB just made that up? You might be right. I can't argue that point.
- 4. No, apart from the last two sentences, the first three paragraphs tell me nothing about the dictionary. If you can't see this then I suggest you take a break and look at it with fresh eyes. The first paragraph is about the contract. The second and beginning of the third paragraph is about other dictionaries.
- 5. Eh? Are you telling me none of your sources tell you about physical aspects of the man? Are you saying EB is wrong and he was short and slender?
- 6. I had read the "Character sketch", thank you, and I've read it again. It says nothing about him being "the foremost literary figure and the most formidable conversationalist of his time". He loved his cats, apparently.
- 7. You are saying that EB's scholars are the only people to have mentioned Johnson's aphorisms!! Come on, even I've heard them. As for the 2nd-most-frequently-quoted statement, again, you are saying the EB just made that up? Perhaps they did; that's quite an allegation.
- 8. I agree with you that the EB article is too short on these aspects. I gave some practical suggestions on how the TS section could be more focussed IMO.
- 9. Ah, the second sentence in the lead. Which is supposed to be a summary of the body. So where does it say that in the body?
- 10. I've been around WP long enough to know the restrictions it imposes. It can be a handicap. But there are some serious holes in the coverage of Johnson's literary work that this article should fill. I don't prefer Britannica's style and don't subscribe to it. A scholarly work will have more detail than an encyclopaedia for the general reader, which is what WP is. I don't need to know what Johnson had for breakfast on the day he signed the contract for his dictionary. Colin°Talk 23:34, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Colin, I would suggest you read the William Shakespeare page. You will notice that works like Richard III receive very little mention. 1. "I'm quite familiar with it thank-you and I wasn't referring to it." I was, and it contradicts your desire for certain pieces of information. 2. "I didn't say I favoured the Britannica article." Then don't mention it in an oppose. 4. "tell me nothing about the dictionary." So, the time table of how long he worked on it tells you nothing? And the comparative claims to show what he was working against? Or the fourth paragraph detailing how he had to retain assistants tells you nothing? Or do you mean it doesn't tell you whats inside of a dictionary, then I would point out that its a dictionary. 5. Unless you can provide when and where it matters, then it doesn't. He grew. He changed sizes. There are mentions of his scars. There are mentions of how people reacted to his mannerisms. That is scholarly. What you ask for is Britannica junk that is put in there to entertain children. 6. Because such claims are speculation and unverifiable. We discussed his communication skills and intelligence. The rest belongs in an opinion column. 7. "to have mentioned Johnson's aphorisms" To have lodged such outrageous and unscientific claims about them, yes. 8. They aren't very practical, as the section covers a lot of medicine in a very brief timespan, and would warrant an expansion based on WP:WEIGHT. 9. It doesn't have to be in the text at all as there is a significant coverage of Boswell within the work, which is what the line is about. 10. Mock as much as you want, but the signing the contract during breakfast is an important character detail and included in all of his major biographies. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:51, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm about done here as it is evident you are more interested in arguing that finding if even one of my points is worth pursuing.If the most you want to say about the dictionary (yes, the words on the page) is that "It's a dictionary, duh" then I really give up. I imagine all of Johnson's biographies mention his stature, yet you refuse to mention it because you think such comments are childish? Opinion of Johnson does deserve mention here, though in WP it needs to be attributed rather than directly stated like on EB. I'm afraid the reader really does need the help of others in working out whether he is considered the greatest/best/etc because few of us are so well read as to make that judgement ourselves. The claim about his quotability might be outrageous, but his aphorisms are well known and a reason he is well known to the population -- yet the word doesn't appear in the article. I'm glad the biography is now celebrated in the body text, despite what you wrote above. Finally, my "what he had for breakfast" point is gentle mocking but apt. There are lots of things that one would expect to find in "all of his major biographies". Those are books and this is an article.- Before anyone gets the wrong idea: I think this is generally an excellent article. It is well written (though the detail of his comings and goings really bogs the reader down at times) It is clear that those who have worked on this have done their research, are using high quality sources, and care passionately about the subject. Colin°Talk 08:36, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Update: I've just seen the note on my talk page about changes made to the article by Ottava: "I trimmed out 3k worth of text and then added in 9.5k worth of text in terms of elaborations of plots/subjects of works, influence on contemporary works, more detailed explanation of biographies, added a section on his influence on criticism and response, and organizations/celebrations based around his character." I'll have a look later at these changes. Colin°Talk 09:45, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Colin, I would suggest you read the William Shakespeare page. You will notice that works like Richard III receive very little mention. 1. "I'm quite familiar with it thank-you and I wasn't referring to it." I was, and it contradicts your desire for certain pieces of information. 2. "I didn't say I favoured the Britannica article." Then don't mention it in an oppose. 4. "tell me nothing about the dictionary." So, the time table of how long he worked on it tells you nothing? And the comparative claims to show what he was working against? Or the fourth paragraph detailing how he had to retain assistants tells you nothing? Or do you mean it doesn't tell you whats inside of a dictionary, then I would point out that its a dictionary. 5. Unless you can provide when and where it matters, then it doesn't. He grew. He changed sizes. There are mentions of his scars. There are mentions of how people reacted to his mannerisms. That is scholarly. What you ask for is Britannica junk that is put in there to entertain children. 6. Because such claims are speculation and unverifiable. We discussed his communication skills and intelligence. The rest belongs in an opinion column. 7. "to have mentioned Johnson's aphorisms" To have lodged such outrageous and unscientific claims about them, yes. 8. They aren't very practical, as the section covers a lot of medicine in a very brief timespan, and would warrant an expansion based on WP:WEIGHT. 9. It doesn't have to be in the text at all as there is a significant coverage of Boswell within the work, which is what the line is about. 10. Mock as much as you want, but the signing the contract during breakfast is an important character detail and included in all of his major biographies. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:51, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've re-read the article. Regarding the works, there is now some information in those places where there was none. The legacy section is also much improved. I would have preferred a little more about the dictionary (perhaps a definition or two and a brief comparison of his approach when compared to modern dictionaries) as it is his most noted work. Some of my other points remain unaddressed (for example, there is no mention of his stroke which is the subject of at least one medical paper). Since I'm no literary expert, and improvements have been made, I feel I should retract my oppose. Given the otherwise evident quality of the article, I now support it for FA status. Colin°Talk 00:37, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I added this. It needs to be cleaned up, but it makes clear that this was a stroke. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:59, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Opposeper Awadewit. When the editor who has raised two dozen other articles on related subjects to the featured level asserts that the candidate article lacks appropriate attention to the subject's work, we should take notice. She makes a very good argument regarding comprehensiveness: her objections are reasoned and specific. So opposing per criterion 1(c). DurovaCharge! 18:00, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please point out the "two dozen other articles". Thanks. Bate never brings them up. Greene never brings them up. Wain never brings them up. They are the main Johnson scholars.Striking because you can't do it, as actual critics never used Awadewit as a source, and thus would be OR. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:13, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]- (ec) I had written this: I'm referring to Awadewit's 24 featured article credits, which all relate to English literature from this period and slightly afterward. She knows her stuff and it very much looks like her suggestions would make the article more informative. Suggest you address these points through improvements to the article. Best wishes, After seeing that edit conflict, strongly suggest a change of approach. Straw man arguments and sarcasm aren't likely to improve anything. I don't take that kind of behavior personally, and I hope neither does Awadewit, but it's not constructive or suitable. DurovaCharge! 18:25, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You think that Sandy and Malleus would have let it go if it wasn't already comprehensive? Or the extensive Peer review? Or the people on this list don't have more experience than her? If you had a real objection, you would have made it. Instead, you are basing it off of favoritism, which the FA process is not about. Awadewit failed to produce any actual proof. None of the major biographers mention anything even close to what she says. I have 24 biographies on my desk right now. I have 5 book collections of articles, plus loose articles. You want to say the page is not comprehensive? Get some real proof instead of defending someone who is throwing out baseless accusations. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:29, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You attempt to reverse the burden of evidence and make a very serious allegation of misconduct. Please withdraw the claim, you are basing it off of favoritism. You cannot know what motivates me and that assertion is a violation of WP:AGF. Your response also insinuates that a positive peer review and SandyGeorgia's allowing a nomination onto FAC constitutes some expectation of promotion. Of course that doesn't always happen. Please, let's interact on a more productive and collegial level. I can be persuaded to change my opinion, but not by such tactics as this. DurovaCharge! 18:42, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If saying that one user's comments are more highly respected than others, thats the definition of favourtism. You stated it yourself. You also disrespected the countless editors who worked hard on this piece and have far more FAC experience. And the "burden of evidence" is not on me. You don't have to prove your innocence. If she thinks that there is something missing, she better find it and point it out. Otherwise, it cannot be added. Right now, the work covers every single major biographer and Johnson scholar. All it takes is a quick glance through the reference section to see that. "SandyGeorgia's allowing a nomination onto FAC" Also, its her nom. Its not her "allowing" it onto FAC. Its her putting in over 200 edits towards making this FA worthy and going through every single medical article she could to actually fill out a topic held by the majority of scholars, a topic which Awadewit said didn't belong. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:52, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ottava Rima, a second attempt to sway this opinion with the straw man fallacy is no more persuasive than the first try. It would be favoritism if my trust in Awadewit's opinion were unmerited. Her two dozen featured articles on closely related subjects are an objective measurement of her knowledge in this field. I know a bit about Johnson, and a bit more about Austen--enough to appreciate what she's saying, and her argument is well-reasoned and sensible. Your responses look hotheaded and are logically flawed. Now I'm not the sort to hold a grudge. So if you'll just give the material another pass and deepen the treatment of Johnson's works and influence, I'll be glad to change my vote. Other than that, to paraphrase Elizabeth Bennet said in Pride and Prejudice, 'Keep your breath to cool your porridge, unless you exhale to swell the article with (critical) song.' DurovaCharge! 19:07, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You already said "per Awadewit". As I have explained above, her point is non-actionable, and any said actions would violate both policy and guidelines. If you are unpersuaded or not, that doesn't matter. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:10, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It seems odd that you simultaneously accuse me of favoritism, and attempt to sway my opinion by a combative manner. If you really suppose both my ethics and logic are second-rate, wouldn't it be more practical to apply honey instead of vinegar? She raises a legitimate criterion 1c objection and substantiates it far better than most such objections get raised, and I simply am not satisfied by your rebuttal. If I were actually acting upon personal bias then your manner would entrench the opinion. As it is, I'm a bit puzzled and disappointed by your decision to undermine so much of your own hard work by refusing to make a few additional improvements that could earn this effort the recognition it almost deserves. That's your choice, though. DurovaCharge! 19:19, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I never attempted to sway. I pointed out that you favored Awadewit's response. It is clear that you did from your first line. I stated clearly above that your objection cannot be met, because Awadewit's objection cannot be met. It would go against policy and guideline, thus, I don't need to convince you. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:22, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It seems odd that you simultaneously accuse me of favoritism, and attempt to sway my opinion by a combative manner. If you really suppose both my ethics and logic are second-rate, wouldn't it be more practical to apply honey instead of vinegar? She raises a legitimate criterion 1c objection and substantiates it far better than most such objections get raised, and I simply am not satisfied by your rebuttal. If I were actually acting upon personal bias then your manner would entrench the opinion. As it is, I'm a bit puzzled and disappointed by your decision to undermine so much of your own hard work by refusing to make a few additional improvements that could earn this effort the recognition it almost deserves. That's your choice, though. DurovaCharge! 19:19, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You already said "per Awadewit". As I have explained above, her point is non-actionable, and any said actions would violate both policy and guidelines. If you are unpersuaded or not, that doesn't matter. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:10, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ottava Rima, a second attempt to sway this opinion with the straw man fallacy is no more persuasive than the first try. It would be favoritism if my trust in Awadewit's opinion were unmerited. Her two dozen featured articles on closely related subjects are an objective measurement of her knowledge in this field. I know a bit about Johnson, and a bit more about Austen--enough to appreciate what she's saying, and her argument is well-reasoned and sensible. Your responses look hotheaded and are logically flawed. Now I'm not the sort to hold a grudge. So if you'll just give the material another pass and deepen the treatment of Johnson's works and influence, I'll be glad to change my vote. Other than that, to paraphrase Elizabeth Bennet said in Pride and Prejudice, 'Keep your breath to cool your porridge, unless you exhale to swell the article with (critical) song.' DurovaCharge! 19:07, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If saying that one user's comments are more highly respected than others, thats the definition of favourtism. You stated it yourself. You also disrespected the countless editors who worked hard on this piece and have far more FAC experience. And the "burden of evidence" is not on me. You don't have to prove your innocence. If she thinks that there is something missing, she better find it and point it out. Otherwise, it cannot be added. Right now, the work covers every single major biographer and Johnson scholar. All it takes is a quick glance through the reference section to see that. "SandyGeorgia's allowing a nomination onto FAC" Also, its her nom. Its not her "allowing" it onto FAC. Its her putting in over 200 edits towards making this FA worthy and going through every single medical article she could to actually fill out a topic held by the majority of scholars, a topic which Awadewit said didn't belong. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:52, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You attempt to reverse the burden of evidence and make a very serious allegation of misconduct. Please withdraw the claim, you are basing it off of favoritism. You cannot know what motivates me and that assertion is a violation of WP:AGF. Your response also insinuates that a positive peer review and SandyGeorgia's allowing a nomination onto FAC constitutes some expectation of promotion. Of course that doesn't always happen. Please, let's interact on a more productive and collegial level. I can be persuaded to change my opinion, but not by such tactics as this. DurovaCharge! 18:42, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You think that Sandy and Malleus would have let it go if it wasn't already comprehensive? Or the extensive Peer review? Or the people on this list don't have more experience than her? If you had a real objection, you would have made it. Instead, you are basing it off of favoritism, which the FA process is not about. Awadewit failed to produce any actual proof. None of the major biographers mention anything even close to what she says. I have 24 biographies on my desk right now. I have 5 book collections of articles, plus loose articles. You want to say the page is not comprehensive? Get some real proof instead of defending someone who is throwing out baseless accusations. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:29, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- (ec) I had written this: I'm referring to Awadewit's 24 featured article credits, which all relate to English literature from this period and slightly afterward. She knows her stuff and it very much looks like her suggestions would make the article more informative. Suggest you address these points through improvements to the article. Best wishes, After seeing that edit conflict, strongly suggest a change of approach. Straw man arguments and sarcasm aren't likely to improve anything. I don't take that kind of behavior personally, and I hope neither does Awadewit, but it's not constructive or suitable. DurovaCharge! 18:25, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(outdent) Weak support. Criticism and influence has been expanded. Although still a bit on the low side per WP:UNDUE, and despite main contributor's comments that would justify a WP:NPOV objection due to concerns that existing scholarly criticism may have been underused. The explanations about posthumous diagnosis are satisfactory. And although I would have objected at the consensus that moved nearly all of Boswell to a subordinate article, I won't stand in the way on that basis after the fact. I still don't quite get the rationale for citing a sometimes unreliable source for facts within the article without also providing a summary within that same article about the reasonable limits of trustworthiness for that source. That leaves the quote boxes, and the explanations for quoting Boswell exclusively within those quote boxes are wholly unsatisfactory from a historian's perspective; shifting the rationale to illustration is no improvement. Disappointing as that is, I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt. FAC's approach to illustrative media is often unsatisfactory to those of us who contribute other types of featured content and it wouldn't be fair to single out this nomination from others on that basis. DurovaCharge! 00:49, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- neutral apologies for the flip-flop. Subsequent discussion at this FAC has deepened my concerns about NPOV. DurovaCharge! 22:05, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm sorry, but NPOV requires Weight, and there has been no evidence to suggest that any of Awadewit's claims are even founded in scholarship, let alone be allowed under Weight. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:31, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ottava, I strongly suggest you consult with your mentors about this FAC. I am not one of your mentors, so please allow what I intend as a face-saving disengagement, and please refrain from further jabs at the competence and diligence of one of Wikipedia's top three most prolific contributors of featured articles. DurovaCharge! 00:39, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I am not one of Ottava's mentors either, but I would strongly suggest that you moderate your language nevertheless. "Prolific" does not equate to "knowledgeable". --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 01:12, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Durova, let me make this clear right now. Over 14 admins have contacted me during this FAC expressing their disatisfaction with you, especially with you coming in and using Awadewit's oppose without any basis. These admins remember that you have been in contact with Awadewit and know that you talk to her off line. This page has also gone through an extensive Peer Review and had the involvement of many people, including many admin who feel that your claims are not supportable. Furthermore, these admin all know that you and Shoemaker have a history together. Furthermore, your claims that Awadewit is "prolific" is frivelous, as you have exposed easily that the FAC system can be gamed. Your comments above, combined with your actions, are not becoming of an admin. I recommend that you strike your comments and step away. I have put up with you long enough, and played your game. At the very least, you owe myself, Malleus, and Sandy an apologize for disrupting this FAC. I am done with you, and this is the last response you will hear from me. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:28, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ottava, I strongly suggest you consult with your mentors about this FAC. I am not one of your mentors, so please allow what I intend as a face-saving disengagement, and please refrain from further jabs at the competence and diligence of one of Wikipedia's top three most prolific contributors of featured articles. DurovaCharge! 00:39, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm sorry, but NPOV requires Weight, and there has been no evidence to suggest that any of Awadewit's claims are even founded in scholarship, let alone be allowed under Weight. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:31, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I'd never heard of Samuel Johnson before, and having read the article I'm not sure why I should have. No doubt it's great for Samuel Johnson fans, who are already familiar with his life and work. Specifically it fails criteria 1a) "engaging prose" because reading the endlessly cited minutiae of someones life was very dull and 1b) being comprehensive, because I've no more idea about why this man was important at the end of the article than I had before I started it. Suggest the biography section is heavily edited with more emphasis placed on whatever it is this man actually did that made him notable. --Davémon (talk) 22:06, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Did you read the second sentence - "Johnson is the subject of one of the most celebrated biographies in English"? How about the beginning of the third paragraph - "After nine years of work, his A Dictionary of the English Language was published in 1755 and brought him popularity and success."? If reading someone's life was dull, why not skip out of the clearly marked "biography" section? "on whatever it is this man actually did that made him notable" so, the whole section devoted to his "Dictionary" does not exist? The paragraphs on his edition of Shakespeare I guess don't exist either? Ottava Rima (talk) 22:39, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Malleus has beefed up the lead. The current lead includes:
- Beginning as a Grub Street journalist, he made lasting contributions to English literature as a poet, essayist, moralist, novelist, literary critic, biographer, editor and lexicographer. Johnson has been described as "arguably the most distinguished man of letters in English history". He is also the subject of one of the most celebrated biographies in English, James Boswell's Life of Samuel Johnson. ... After nine years of work, his A Dictionary of the English Language was published in 1755 and brought him popularity and success.
- With a subject like Johnson, it's necessary to avoid WP:PEACOCKery; I hope this satisfies Davemon's concerns. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:38, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It doesn't appear that Davemon has revisited; I'll ping. [53] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:05, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the shout! I think others have pointed out that the issue is best addressed in the lede, so that's what I'll stick to. It has improved, but I think it could be even better. Surely the "Tourett Syndrome" reading/diagnosis of his biography is post-hoc to his fame/notability, and something of an aside rather than being fundamental to understanding the subject. OK so he wrote a dictionary and some journalism pieces but the article should show how these writings are significant to the world - just a few words ("a highly influential dictionary" or "ground-breaking journalism") which are then fleshed out and cited in the main body would be good. --Davémon (talk) 22:04, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I will leave it for Ottava to respond to the rest; I'm responsible for the Tourette syndrome text and accuracy. The TS is not an issue of his fame or notability, rather a matter of understanding his life, work, character, personality in context. The "Health" section, where the TS diagnosis is established, is later in the article, as putting it earlier wouldn't result in a logical flow. Mentioning it in the lead provides context for the other aspects of his life and personality as one reads through. It actually is fundamental to an understanding of Johnson, as contemporary knowledge of his TS puts the rest of his quirky and compulsive behaviors in context. If it's not mentioned in the lead, we'd have to somehow move the Health section up in the article, which would make less sense. Hope this helps explain, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:10, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- How about this? Does it satisfy any concerns? Ottava Rima (talk) 22:38, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Having re-read the whole article, it might be a good start for an essay or a start of an academic paper for eng-lit, but as a general encyclopedia entry it fails. It over-emphasises trivial detail over significant facts, and for that reason, I still oppose this article becoming an FA. --Davémon (talk) 10:28, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- How about this? Does it satisfy any concerns? Ottava Rima (talk) 22:38, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. The article has now nailed it for me, the lede especially summarises the most significant information and explains why it is significant. Brilliant. Well done everyone. --Davémon (talk) 20:24, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Strong OpposeIt doesn't really cover him as an author, beyond the dictionary, which gets trivial coverage as a work of literature, the section concentrating on the contracts and biographical aspects of the dictionary. Nor does it even discuss the importance of Boswell's Life of Samuel Johnson at all. Boswell's Life is probably the most famous biography every written, and it is not discussed - quoted, but not discussed - at all. If this was moved to, say, Samuel Johnson's Life with another article started at Samuel Johnson's Works, with an article at Samuel Johnson summarising them and The Life of Samuel Johnson, and if the Legacy section was expanded enough that his importance became clear, then it would be an excellent featured article. But with the current scope, we have an article on an author that does not cover his works, and one that does not discuss the biography that cemented his fame. This cannot be considered comprehensive, and comprehensive is a key facet of a Featured article.
- The long and short of this is that the coverage of what is covered is
excellent, top rate evenworkable - but there are problems, for instance, when discussing Johnson's refutation of George Berkeley's ideas, you fail to say what those ideas are. However, an article on Samuel Johnson without discussion of his works or the effect of Boswell's biography on his legacy, and which also fails to discuss his own influence and legacy to any depth simply cannot be a featurable main article on the subject. If the scope was changed by making this a sub-article, then it would be fine, excellent even. But it cannot stand on its own with such glaring ommissions Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 23:41, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Struck oppose per this diff. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 10:30, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You do know that Boswell's life is included within the text, right? And its a famous biography, but that fact doesn't make it notable to Johnson's page to analyze it. The named pages are for biographies. Your suggestion goes against MoS. Do you have any actionable changes that don't violate MoS or Wikipedia standards? Ottava Rima (talk) 23:54, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Boswell's Life is discussed in detail in its own article. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 23:59, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It's quoted, yes. But the Life of Johnson is probably one of the keys to Johnson's enduring legacy. I really don't see how you can get away without at least a paragraph or two discussing how it affected perception of Johnson. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 00:06, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, if I kept in the original section, I discussed Boswell's life. And no, it wasn't the key to his enduring legacy. The work was mostly fictional, and has been since dismissed. See the works of Donald Greene for this, or better yet, read about it here where it belongs. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:40, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- ...So, you're saying you don't have to discuss Boswell's life because of problems with it as a source, then use it constantly throughout the article. If there's strong scholarly debate about the accuracy of Boswell's Life, then it is vital to the article that it gets discussed, and the accuracy of our knowledge of Johnson's life is made explicit. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 02:46, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- My comment above was to tell you the reality behind the source. Boswell's passages are contained in image boxes because they add "flavor", but do not provide as much truth. The passages that do describe actual events and not questioned have been used in the text itself. However, Boswell's work was just one of many, and has been replaced by other biographies that are included as references. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:58, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm sorry, but that is not good enough. Indee,d in one place you've chamnged a quote from Boswell's Life from being referenced to Boswell to being referenced to Lane "This first love was not to last, and Johnson later claimed to Boswell, "She was the first woman with whom I was in love. It dropped out of my head imperceptibly, but she and I shall always have a kindness for each other.") By insisting you don't have to deal with the issues you are making the article far worse. Please stop. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 03:16, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- My comment above was to tell you the reality behind the source. Boswell's passages are contained in image boxes because they add "flavor", but do not provide as much truth. The passages that do describe actual events and not questioned have been used in the text itself. However, Boswell's work was just one of many, and has been replaced by other biographies that are included as references. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:58, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- ...So, you're saying you don't have to discuss Boswell's life because of problems with it as a source, then use it constantly throughout the article. If there's strong scholarly debate about the accuracy of Boswell's Life, then it is vital to the article that it gets discussed, and the accuracy of our knowledge of Johnson's life is made explicit. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 02:46, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, if I kept in the original section, I discussed Boswell's life. And no, it wasn't the key to his enduring legacy. The work was mostly fictional, and has been since dismissed. See the works of Donald Greene for this, or better yet, read about it here where it belongs. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:40, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It's quoted, yes. But the Life of Johnson is probably one of the keys to Johnson's enduring legacy. I really don't see how you can get away without at least a paragraph or two discussing how it affected perception of Johnson. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 00:06, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Note - William Shakespeare's page, FA, limits Richard III to only a couple lines, with no actual description on it. Thus, there is no FA standard that says that works need to be devoted anything more than a few lines. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:01, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Nonsense. William Shakespeare from section 2 to section 6 inclusive is discussing his works and him as an author. Samuel Johnson has a single short section discussing one of his works, his dictionary. If you're going to insist that everyone but you is wrong, and try to claim that because an article on a prolific author does not discuss every single one of his 40+ works in great detail (while spending about half a dozen pages discussing his works in general) that you have no need to discuss more than one of a different author's works in any detail - and even the section on the Dictionary never describes the Dictionary itself, its importance, or anything but how it was created - then we may as well close this now as not promoted, because there's no way in hell it ever will be. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 00:06, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Works. This biography contains just as much information about his works. The individual works receive little over one or two lines. thus, your point doesn't correspond to the appropriate models. "that you have no need to discuss more" Actually, all of his major works are discussed into the detail appropriate according to the Shakespeare page. And this - "never describes the Dictionary itself," - is absurd, because saying the word "dictionary" is enough to give someone 95% of the knowledge of what it is. Everything else is covered in the dictionary's page. Any more would be redundant and thus violate MoS. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:40, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You need, at a minimum, a section on literary criticism from Johnson's age to ours, and a section detailing the themes and style of his works. The legacy section also needs to actually detail HOW he influenced other authors, and detail how the Johnson school of criticism developed.
- You clearly are interested primarily in the biography aspects, and are pretty competent at dealing with them. However, you don't seem to understand what literary criticism even means, thinking that a few words about the plot or argument of some of his works is the same thing as discussing his works. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 03:22, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Works. This biography contains just as much information about his works. The individual works receive little over one or two lines. thus, your point doesn't correspond to the appropriate models. "that you have no need to discuss more" Actually, all of his major works are discussed into the detail appropriate according to the Shakespeare page. And this - "never describes the Dictionary itself," - is absurd, because saying the word "dictionary" is enough to give someone 95% of the knowledge of what it is. Everything else is covered in the dictionary's page. Any more would be redundant and thus violate MoS. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:40, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Nonsense. William Shakespeare from section 2 to section 6 inclusive is discussing his works and him as an author. Samuel Johnson has a single short section discussing one of his works, his dictionary. If you're going to insist that everyone but you is wrong, and try to claim that because an article on a prolific author does not discuss every single one of his 40+ works in great detail (while spending about half a dozen pages discussing his works in general) that you have no need to discuss more than one of a different author's works in any detail - and even the section on the Dictionary never describes the Dictionary itself, its importance, or anything but how it was created - then we may as well close this now as not promoted, because there's no way in hell it ever will be. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 00:06, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 03:16, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, but WEIGHT and size issues say otherwise. Shakespeare is a model and does not do as you say. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:49, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- ...Okay, you are clearly either delusional or a troll, and there is no point talking to you further. The Article on Shakespeare is about half to two thirds on Shakespeare's work, legacy, and the like. I am not going to feed the trolls any further. Contact me on my talk page if someone actually interested in hearing what reviewers have to say wants to talk. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 04:07, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm sorry to see this personal attack unstruck after almost two weeks. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:05, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- ...Okay, you are clearly either delusional or a troll, and there is no point talking to you further. The Article on Shakespeare is about half to two thirds on Shakespeare's work, legacy, and the like. I am not going to feed the trolls any further. Contact me on my talk page if someone actually interested in hearing what reviewers have to say wants to talk. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 04:07, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, but WEIGHT and size issues say otherwise. Shakespeare is a model and does not do as you say. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:49, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy close as not promoted: Nominator obviously has no intent of listening to anything anyone says. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 02:35, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think you may need to reread how FAC work. Its not done by consensus, nor do you say things like that. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:45, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If the people involved with the article are only going to use FAC to belittle reviewers and refuse to deal with any of the problems of the article, then the process is being abused, and this should be closed. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 02:50, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Please provide evidence to support that "any of the problems" were not dealt with as ones that could be dealt with were. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:58, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Awadewit has given you references to several books and articles on lierary criticism and Johnson's legacy. You attacked her for that, and screamed that your biographies are sufficient. You have also said profoundly stupid things, like claiming Johnson did not influence later authors, in the face of people trying to point you to scholarly articles and books that show otherwise. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 12:23, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Please provide evidence to support that "any of the problems" were not dealt with as ones that could be dealt with were. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:58, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If the people involved with the article are only going to use FAC to belittle reviewers and refuse to deal with any of the problems of the article, then the process is being abused, and this should be closed. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 02:50, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose(biggest concerns addressed) Article reads like a giant eulogy, which I find annoying, being Scottish. ;) You;ve got a part like "Johnson attacked the claim that James Macpherson's Ossian poems were translations of ancient Scottish literature on the grounds that "in those times nothing had been written in the Earse language".[157] This claim brought swift reaction from Macpherson, who threatened Johnson with physical violence", distorting the correspondence as well as downplaying Johnson's rampant anti-Scottishness and anti-Gaelic sentiment; meanwhile the article ignores lesser moments for Johnson, like when he was fooled by William Lauder (a Scotchman) into proclaiming John Milton a fraud, before consequently being made to look ridiculous by John Douglas (another Scotchman ;) ). Not FA content, in terms of balance. Before being accused of bias myself (of which I freely admit), I would have opposed the article anyway based on the other concerns here. Article needs a content overhaul before being stamped FA. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 08:18, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Deacon, I would reread the article, because I already added far more detail from the works, which places it well above every other authorial biography and this as after people demanded more about the works and more about his legacy. As you can see, I removed 3k worth of text and then added 9k here, and am currently over the MoS word limit, so not much can be added. Also, the above about Johnson and Macpherson comes from many sources, so its not downplaying or anything. If you have another source with another version, please provide. However, Bate and Wain seem very much agreed that Macpherson threatened him, and that Johnson was correct. And anti-Scottishness and anti-Gaelic? It doesn't seem to be either from the accounts of his visit from my sources except for a handful of early quotes in which he made fun of Scotland (which are better suited on Wikiquote). If you can provide from sources to what you say, then I can easily add to the section (it is part of WikiProject Scottish Islands, so it does deserve to have more). Ottava Rima (talk) 12:23, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the advice. I appreciate with these FAC's you get stuck between rocks and hard places. Your compliance with a demand from one person oft leads to condemnation by another. Anyways ...
- The "threat of violence" is attested only in Johnson's "response". You might want to read, Fiona Stafford's "Dr Johnson and the Ruffian: new evidence in the dispute between Samuel Johnson and James Macpherson". As the article has it, 'tis a pretty unbalanced way to represent the whole Johnson MacPherson dispute, which consisted mostly of ad hominem attacks on MacPherson and Gaelic culture on Johnson's part, rather than any literary insight, with some responses from MacPherson and his supporters. Despite being opinionated about the culture, Johnson learned no Gaelic, couldn't read the language, didn't understand the culture, and offered little critical insight into the Ossian matter (that role fell to other men with no obsequoius biographers). And as it happens (since you mentioned it), it has been shown by modern research that MacPherson did use older Gaelic sources, his crime was embellishing them not forging them.
- As for being duped, in 1750 a guy called William Lauder published a pamphlet arguing that John Milton plagiarized his great works from older authors. Johnson, who hated Milton, got excited, added his voice of support and even attached himself to it by authoring the preface. For the details, see Chapter 9 of J. A. Farrer, Literary Forges (1907). James Clifford and Bertram Davis, modern writers about Johnson, use this episode to highlight Johnson's frequent literary incompetence.
- My impression of sycophancy in this article may be down to my own prejudices. I could take your advice and read it again tomorrow ('tis well written for sure) and see if I was wrong, and if so, moderate or change my vote, but other users above have expressed valid concerns too. You do have my sympathies, as those concerns have very little to do with your efforts, just the relationship between your choices and peer expectation you didn't foresee. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 13:50, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I added indentations so my response will format, so I hope you don't mind. The article right now is trying to cover a very long life and a lot of works. I can add a line here or there, but we are way over the limit. I took out a lot of material to make a page devoted to his "portrait", or analysis of his character. He was known for occasional instances of outbursts that could be discussed further with anecdotes and analysis of the sections you have above. We should discuss working on a line or two even out any bias, and I welcome you on my talk page to discuss it further. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:46, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Rephrasing it as:
- Johnson entered the dispute over the authenticy of James Macpherson's Ossian poems, claiming they could not have been translations of ancient Scottish literature on the grounds that "in those times nothing had been written in the Earse [i.e. Gaelic] language".[157] There were heated exchanges between the two, and according to one of Johnson's own letters, MacPherson threatened physical violence".
- takes out a bit of the bias here. Noting that he is widely associated with anti-Scottishness and anti-Gaelic sentiments, while noting some scholars feel this exaggerated, I guess covers this to an acceptable level I guess and without undue weight or bias. The links I sent you are sufficient reference, though you'll find yourself even more well-covered if you search on google books "Samuel Johnson anti-Scottish" "Samuel Johnson anti-Gaelic", etc. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 10:47, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- My impression of sycophancy in this article may be down to my own prejudices. I could take your advice and read it again tomorrow ('tis well written for sure) and see if I was wrong, and if so, moderate or change my vote, but other users above have expressed valid concerns too. You do have my sympathies, as those concerns have very little to do with your efforts, just the relationship between your choices and peer expectation you didn't foresee. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 13:50, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- In response to your request on our talk pages for examples of euologizing, well, it permeates, though having read it again it isn't doesn't seem as bad, considering it is his biography. Still, the long (considering its importance) praise of his Pope poem and praise of him in his student life is for instance one of the other pieces I found unnecessarily euologistic. It's not biggie, sure you have reasons. You have de-POVed the MacPherson thing ... so after all that I feel I can withdraw my strong oppose at least. I'll abstain in fact, but won't be changing to support though as, not being a literature expert, the concerns above make me too unsure. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 10:57, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The Pope thing was an important moment in Johnson's life, and the two instances of Johnson's involvement with Pope (who was considered the greatest literary figure at the time) contrast against each other. If there is anything other particulars, please mention them and I'll see what I can do. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:02, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- In response to your request on our talk pages for examples of euologizing, well, it permeates, though having read it again it isn't doesn't seem as bad, considering it is his biography. Still, the long (considering its importance) praise of his Pope poem and praise of him in his student life is for instance one of the other pieces I found unnecessarily euologistic. It's not biggie, sure you have reasons. You have de-POVed the MacPherson thing ... so after all that I feel I can withdraw my strong oppose at least. I'll abstain in fact, but won't be changing to support though as, not being a literature expert, the concerns above make me too unsure. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 10:57, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- A a science nerd who has worked hard to get the facts straight in Francis Crick, I look at Samuel Johnson with envy. I know nothing about Samuel Johnson, but as a non-expert I found the article to be informative and easy to read. Thanks to the editors for all their hard work. Can I "hire" you to spruce up Francis Crick? --JWSurf (talk) 13:39, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Another major problem: Not all of the sources have the details. For instance, Reference 56 is "Warner 1802, p. 105" - the details for Warner's book aren't given. Ditto: Reverence 179 (Whiltshire 1991, p. 51). Also, the references are not all linked to the bibliography - consistency is needed. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 12:39, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed. All that is left is the occassional reflist error, which is not an issue. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:26, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Those two minor mistakes have been corrected; I'll be working later on the Tourette section, to incorporate new and even stronger sources uncovered in the discussion on the talk page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:32, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- They're easy to fix, but it's a major problem if they aren't: The reference becomes inherently uncheckable. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 15:15, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- One-two omissions is more than 200 citations do not constitute a "major problem"!--Yannismarou (talk) 12:51, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, no need to exaggerate about WP:V, unclickable doesn't mean unverifiable; the information was there, just a dead Harvnb link. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:05, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- One-two omissions is more than 200 citations do not constitute a "major problem"!--Yannismarou (talk) 12:51, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- They're easy to fix, but it's a major problem if they aren't: The reference becomes inherently uncheckable. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 15:15, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- support:This is monumental undertaking to write a comprehensive article on an author. My feeling is that may be some sections are big enough that may be they can be broken into sub articles ?. Taprobanus (talk)
- During the last couple weeks, I made a page for each of the literary works, and moved bits of information over and expanded, with the last being the The Plays of William Shakespeare page. There is a page devoted to biographies on him, with their individual pages, also. We just made a split off of the health section. There might be another or two later. Johnson could probably have his own WikiProject by the end. Ottava Rima (talk) 12:49, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
opposesupport All concerns addressed - consider that the article is now as worthy of FA-status as any article I have read, and am incidentally concerned by the extent to which this talk page is turning into a fight. Lexo (talk) 23:23, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I do not want to oppose this article getting FA-status, because I have worked with its main nominator on other Johnson-related articles, and I have found him to be a generous and learned contributor, way more learned than me on the subject of this article. But I do not consider this a useful general article about Johnson. It is a potted and well-sourced biography, but not much else. It tells me that he is a notable subject, but does not demonstrate why he is so. There is too much trivial biographical detail. I can remember what it was like to know absolutely nothing about Johnson, and this article mostly tells me the story of his life - not why he is anything more than a figure on English literary history. Lexo (talk) 00:07, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Which subjects have not been discussed enough? He also lived to 80, and these are the most important moments of his life, which is very important, so you will have to be very specific here. Also, how does the section on London and his involvement with Pope not make it notable? How about how his Life of Richard Savage "remains one of the innovative works in the history of biography"? Or his Dictionary section? His meeting with the king? Descriptives about his Shakespeare edition from one of the most important Shakespeare scholars that praises Johnson's edition? His involvement with the Club? Works by those like Miss Lennox that defend him? The countless biographies listed written after his death? Some of the most known quotes like "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."? Multiple movies being made on his life? 8 major "societies" devoted to analysing his life? Praise from T. S. Eliot? Even just one of those above establishes him as a notable person, and if you can't see that he is notable, then I don't really know what to say. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:18, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The major problem here is the weighting. For instance, looking at just one of the things you mention:
- On the evening of 7 April 1775, he made the famous statement, "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."[142] This line was not, as widely believed, about patriotism in general, but the false use of the term "patriotism" by John Stuart, 3rd Earl of Bute (the patriot-minister) and his supporters. Johnson opposed "self-professed Patriots" in general, but valued what he considered "true" patriotism. - I believe this is the only quote discussed in any detail, but the only discussion of it is to criticise unnamed and hitherto unmentioned people for taking it out of context. If you want to cite it as a major source of notability, it is necessary to actually establish it's notable in the article text. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 07:52, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Notability only has to "be established" on a page devoted to the quote. All of those lines are cited. You say its a weight issue, without actually stating anything that is part of weight. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:23, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If anyone was curious to see if the quote is widely known, just look here. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:48, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Another issue: Samuel Johnson made Francis Barber, originally a Jamaican slave, his heir, as well as educating him and so on. This is very surprising behaviour for someone from such a racist time. The article riefly mentions the event, but without any vividness, detail, or even treating the event as unusual. Indeed, the article consistently fails to establish the importance of significance of the events it describes. It badly needs a full copyedit and rewrite to turn it from a selection of facts into a vivid portrait. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 15:20, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Johnson didn't think the event was significant. Writers did not think the event was significant. Before you start throwing out lines like the above, actually get some proof. Otherwise, you are demanding original research and asking for things that aren't allowable on Wikipedia. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:50, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Really. You're telling me not one biographer discusses Francis Barber in any detail. Strange that we have an article on him with extensive quotes from Boswell, and a bit of Hawkins too. Clearly they must be fabrications. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 16:00, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Barber was a servant. He is mentioned on five pages in Bates, many times in passing. He was not a notable part of his life, and there was nothing to do about "racism" when hiring him. There is a page on Francis Barber that contains information that is proper to the weight on his page. You really need to reread what WP:WEIGHT says. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:05, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "should do so in proportion to the prominence of each." From WP:WEIGHT. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:07, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- As determined by the Great Arbitrator (you), of course. However, weight isn't the issue here, it's that the facts are poorly chosen, the explanaitions of why the facts are relevant non-existant, and nothing is put in context. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 16:10, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Lets see - you lack any references. You lack any substance to prove your point. And then you arbitrarily take pot shots at the article. Not only do you lack an objectionable point, you don't even have basis beyond OR, which would violate Wikipedia standards. Weight is an issue here. Your attitude is an issue here. Your lack of having actual evidence is an issue here. Now either come up with real, reliable proof, or stop. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:54, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This FAC is beginning to remind me very much of the Roman Catholic Church's various attempts. Some want more biographical detail, some want less. Some want more about Johnson as an author, some want more about his legacy, some want less about his medical conditions, but very few seem to recognise the size constraint placed on wikipedia articles. I think that Ottava has bent over backwards to deal with the myriad of conflicting demands placed on this article, which in my view is fully deserving of FA status. This recent trend of holding certain types of articles to far higher standards than others does not bode well for the future of FA. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 22:30, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I understand the sense of similarity, but it reminds me more of To Kill a Mockingbird, a literary article where everyone knows a bit and everyone has an opinion. One substantial difference between this FAC and the RCC is that sourcing here is solid, there are no ongoing MoS issues and constant cleanup and prose needs, and there are no significant POV allegations, stability and length issues as there were in the RCC FAC (the RCC FAC had concerns spanning 1a, 1b, 1c, 1d, 1e, 2 and 4; the depth and breadth of concerns were substantial, and that is not the situation here). From the point of view of concerns expressed, the two FACs are quite different. I agree with your general concern, though. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:40, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You're right. The Roman Catholic Church was probably a poor comparison. I would call on those still opposing this article to be specific about which of the FA criteria they believe it fails. I believe that it fulfills all of them. In spades. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 22:56, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The main argument of those opposing is "comprehensiveness". Therefore, I wouldn't agree with Sandy that these concerns are not "substantial". They are! If they are correct or not is another issue to be judged. I personally believe that the article fulfils FA criteria, and I supported it, but I cannot call the concerns of a user like Awadewit presenting a series of arguments about the article's lack of comprehensiveness (exaggerating IMO but this is another issue) as not substantial.--Yannismarou (talk) 09:24, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I haven't made myself clear, or I've been misunderstood. We were discussing this FAC in relation to the RCC FAC, where there were substantial (about a dozen) opposes across the full range of WP:WIAFA, including almost all points: 1a, 1b, 1c, 1d, 1e, 2 and 4. That FAC had a breadth and depth of opposes. This FAC has several opposes centered around a difference of opinion on basically one issue, comprehensiveness, and differing opinions over how to employ summary style relative to 1b, "neglects no major facts or details". With Johnson, there are many major facts and details; different editors have different and contradictory input about what should be included and how summary style should be employed; some have failed to consider size limitations, but the opposes revolve around basically one concern, while many opposes focused on the full range of WIAFA in the RCC FAC. That was all I meant in the comparison. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:18, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The main argument of those opposing is "comprehensiveness". Therefore, I wouldn't agree with Sandy that these concerns are not "substantial". They are! If they are correct or not is another issue to be judged. I personally believe that the article fulfils FA criteria, and I supported it, but I cannot call the concerns of a user like Awadewit presenting a series of arguments about the article's lack of comprehensiveness (exaggerating IMO but this is another issue) as not substantial.--Yannismarou (talk) 09:24, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You're right. The Roman Catholic Church was probably a poor comparison. I would call on those still opposing this article to be specific about which of the FA criteria they believe it fails. I believe that it fulfills all of them. In spades. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 22:56, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I understand the sense of similarity, but it reminds me more of To Kill a Mockingbird, a literary article where everyone knows a bit and everyone has an opinion. One substantial difference between this FAC and the RCC is that sourcing here is solid, there are no ongoing MoS issues and constant cleanup and prose needs, and there are no significant POV allegations, stability and length issues as there were in the RCC FAC (the RCC FAC had concerns spanning 1a, 1b, 1c, 1d, 1e, 2 and 4; the depth and breadth of concerns were substantial, and that is not the situation here). From the point of view of concerns expressed, the two FACs are quite different. I agree with your general concern, though. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:40, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This FAC is beginning to remind me very much of the Roman Catholic Church's various attempts. Some want more biographical detail, some want less. Some want more about Johnson as an author, some want more about his legacy, some want less about his medical conditions, but very few seem to recognise the size constraint placed on wikipedia articles. I think that Ottava has bent over backwards to deal with the myriad of conflicting demands placed on this article, which in my view is fully deserving of FA status. This recent trend of holding certain types of articles to far higher standards than others does not bode well for the future of FA. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 22:30, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Lets see - you lack any references. You lack any substance to prove your point. And then you arbitrarily take pot shots at the article. Not only do you lack an objectionable point, you don't even have basis beyond OR, which would violate Wikipedia standards. Weight is an issue here. Your attitude is an issue here. Your lack of having actual evidence is an issue here. Now either come up with real, reliable proof, or stop. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:54, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- As determined by the Great Arbitrator (you), of course. However, weight isn't the issue here, it's that the facts are poorly chosen, the explanaitions of why the facts are relevant non-existant, and nothing is put in context. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 16:10, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Really. You're telling me not one biographer discusses Francis Barber in any detail. Strange that we have an article on him with extensive quotes from Boswell, and a bit of Hawkins too. Clearly they must be fabrications. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 16:00, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Johnson didn't think the event was significant. Writers did not think the event was significant. Before you start throwing out lines like the above, actually get some proof. Otherwise, you are demanding original research and asking for things that aren't allowable on Wikipedia. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:50, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- SJ's interaction with Barber was critically important when seen in the context of his politics as a noted early very strong opponent of slavery, and there are excellent quotes for the purpose available "Here's to the next insurrection of the negroes in the West Indies." and, with respct to the American revolutionary leaders, "Why is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty from the drivers of negroes?" and quite a few others, as wll as abundant secondary discussion. I think the article considerably underestimates the importance of Johnson's politics in general. But I don't consider that a question of NPOV, just of further work to be done. If the people trying to remove articles on fiction ever let up, I might even be able to write something. MF is quite correct about standards. For articles on academic subjects, its easier to be very critical, because that's what we are taught to do with such subjects and habitually do when discussing them. My view of SJ is different from that of OR in a number of respects, and the same for that of Durova. This isn't the sort of thing about which there is a real synthesis to be expected. But nonetheless this is a high quality article. DGG (talk) 03:40, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I :agree that his opinions on slavery, the American uprising, and his general political thoughts deserve to be mentioned on Wikipedia, but they cannot be given any respect in the format we have. It would need to have a page devoted to it, which I always intended to write (because there are many pamphlets not discussed). There are over 70 essays, along with 7 pamphlets, and some other items that give minor ideas and thoughts that would be hard to generalize. Greene, in his attempt, only 23 true pages on the topic and another 15 to general "journalism" while devoting half of his 19 page poet section to poetic theory, his biography section of 25 pages to theory, and 31 further pages on general literary criticism in a work used to summarize Johnson's works (or, as Greene says, to describe him in terms of being a man of letters). There would probably need a page devoted to his Anglican beliefs. And for the record - my experience with Johnson has been of him as a critic and him as a personality. He intersected with most of the poets of the 18th century, and these intersections have come up the most. I feel that the best that can be done to describe his politics on the general biography page is what is done currently: discussion of London's politics (2 lines), his view on the Seven Year's war (1 line), views in Rasselas (2 lines), politics with the pension (1 line), his later pamphlets (2 paragraphs), and his generalized views (2 paragraphs). Added together, it forms roughly one section on the topic. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:43, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Two daughter articles added, per summary style: SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:03, 5 September 2008 (UTC) [reply]Main articles: Samuel Johnson's politics and Samuel Johnson's ethical views
- Two daughter articles added, per summary style: SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:03, 5 September 2008 (UTC) [reply]
Malleus, I agree that this page is horribly unwieldly and it is hard to tell what objections reviewers still hold. I've tried to strike mine out and note improvements as I have reread. Looking at the FAC, however, I'm not really sure that there is a lot of disagreement among the opposers - to me it looks like there are two major threads: 1) not enough discussion of the works; 2) too much biographical detail. If we could get all of the opposers to weigh in on this statement, that might help. If indeed, these are the only major two issues, I believe there is light at the end of the tunnel. Awadewit (talk) 11:36, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree, except that I think the core problem is that a lot of the detail that is covered is not covered well. My point about the Francis Barber statementsd, for example, was that discussion about him was begun, but in a somewhat random location, and without taking enough time to make bringing up Barber interesting. This article very regularly reads like a collection of random bibliographic facts, and if it covered half as many facts, but covered them well, it would be much better article. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 11:46, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, what really doesn't help is attacking the reviewers. Can this please stop before I'm forced to pull in the Mediation cabal or ANI into a FAC? Because this really is not on. I don't want to cause more drama, but I will not allow FAC to be turned into a farce by having an article promoted by means of attacking everyone who opposes until they give up, then declaring victory.
- I did not want to uissue an ultimatum, however, if the featured article team cannot make Ottava rima show even the minimal level of civility towards the reviewers who disagree with him, one of whom, Awadewit, is a graduate student with a speciality in 18th century literature who he is treating as if she knows nothing and is a meddling ignoramus, then I will find someone who can. Because this is discredit to the entire FA process. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 11:52, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Neither ANI nor a mediation cabal has any place at FAC. Yes, Ottava's responses could have been better (but I have seen much worse from other nominators), and I have left him a message to that effect with suggestions on how to better phrase his responses. However, on this FAC reviewers have also contributed to escalating the conflict. I encourage all parties to this FAC to focus on the issues and stop posting any personal comments - either in support of or objection to any editor who has posted. Karanacs (talk) 14:22, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Very well. allow me to state my objections to the article itself plainly, in an itemised list
- The article reads more like a collection of random facts than a coherent work. Things are mentioned, but not elabourated on, leaving their importance unclear. Organisation is poor - for instance, Francis Barber is said to have visited Johnson as he lay dying long before who Barber is is mentioned.
- Addressed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:05, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- While some definite improvement has been made to the literary criticism, there's still gaps. Particularly, the dictionary's discussion is concerned almost entirely with the contractual history of its writing - discussion of the work itself is minimal. Not even one definition from the dictionary is quoted, nor is the dictionary's impact, nor the dictionary as literature discussed in any depth.
- I'm having a hard time understanding how a definition from a dictionary will add to the article. The dictionary discussion has been expanded, and additional detail will be included at A Dictionary of the English Language. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:11, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The literary criticism section is also cited almost entirely to one author, Greene. Is this [54] the Donald Greene work used to cite most of the section on Johnson's works? If so, it doesn't look like the references check out. If it isn't, can you clarify which book by Donald Greene it, in fact, is, and perhaps clarify, e.g. giving a subtitle as well as the title. Regardless, the section really could use a second major source.
- John Needham was added as a source to the newly titled "Critical theory" section, and the Donald Greene works are fully cited, including title. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:46, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Historiography is not covered very well. Particularly, while there's a little discussion of Boswell's Life of Johnson, pulling it all into its own subsection of Legacy would make for better summary style, as it would then be clear that there's an important sub-article on the work. Also, a brief discussion of how modern scholars view the biographies that were published after his death would be useful.
- Detailed discussion of Boswell's biography was removed at the request of others. There is now a complete {{Samuel Johnson}} template of related articles, icluding Boswell. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:09, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The article lacks clear focus to many of its sections. For instance, this is the first paragraph of "Early career":
- There is little record of Johnson's life between the end of 1729 and 1731; he most likely lived with his parents when experiencing bouts of mental anguish.[38] Although it is not known when Johnson first displayed the signs of Tourette syndrome, we know that following this time he exhibited the various tics and gesticulations associated with the disorder.[39] To further complicate Johnson's life, his father was deeply in debt by 1731 and had lost much of his standing in Lichfield. An usher's position became available at Stourbridge Grammar School, but Johnson's lack of a degree saw him passed over, on 6 September 1731.[38] At about the same time, Johnson's father became ill; he developed an "inflammatory fever", which ended his life in December 1731.[40] Johnson tried to start a career and eventually found employment as undermaster at a school in Market Bosworth, Leicestershire. The school was run by Sir Wolstan Dixie, who allowed Johnson to teach even though he did not have a degree.[41] Although the arrangement may seem congenial, Johnson was treated as "a kind of domestick chaplain".[42] Still, Johnson found pleasure in teaching even though he thought it boring. By June 1732, he had returned home, and, after a fight with Dixie, quit the school.[43]
- This entire section appears to be an attempt to include every single fact known about this period of Johnson's life, however, it is not a particularly notable period of his life, and summary style would call for this to be spun off to a sub-article, and greatly compressed. For such a long article, it's hard to justify the extreme detail given in this section, when much of it has little to do with Johnson's notability.
- More aggressive use of summary style has now been employed, with text moved to daughter articles, making way for new text. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:31, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- There's a lot of random interjections of facts. For instance, near the end of the section "A Dictionary of the English Language" - which is somewhat misnamed, as much of it is actually on other subjects such as The Rambler - we get this:
- ...Although the production's run had a rough start, Johnson received nearly £300 for the manuscript and the performances.[98]
- Johnson's wife died shortly after the final issue appeared. During his work on the dictionary, Johnson made many appeals for financial help in the form of subscriptions: patrons would get a copy of the first edition as soon as it was printed in compensation for their support during its compilation. The appeals ran until 1752.
- It seems simply bizarre to mention the death of Johnson's wife in the middle of an unrelated discussion, then never mention it again. Did his wife's death have no effect on Johnson whatsoever? That's the impression given.
- Rearranged: [55] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:47, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 15:45, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
CommentsSupport by Moni3: (comments given on article talk page) --Moni3 (talk) 03:16, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]- None too excited to enter a fray, if my comments help at all that is the reason I am giving them. I enjoyed the biography. I found it sympathetic, well-written, and engaging. I was mostly unfamiliar with Johnson's work before reading the article and found him to be portrayed quite roundly and humanly.
- He was born at 4.00 on a Wednesday? Any particular reason for such detail? I see articles as being general yet comprehensive overviews of a subject's life, giving the reader the most important and influential portions of the life in question.
- Addressed (removed). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:23, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Johnson first displayed the signs of Tourette syndrome, we know that following this time he exhibited: this royal "we" is not quite encyclopedic. I mean, I don't know what he exhibited, so I cannot be included in that pronoun. Was this structured in such a way to avoid the passive voice? I'm ok with the passive voice in this instance, otherwise it reads more like a familiar tone of authors speaking directly to readers instead of an encyclopedic authority. Similar point in the Legacy section with It was no wonder that immediately following Johnson's death in December 1784...
- Corrected. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:23, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I get confused about the switching of times after he met Tetty, then was penniless, then brought her to London.
- Rearranged: [56] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:39, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Now I'm totally confused. If his wife is well off, why is he so poor?
- Gosh, he wrote a dictionary that became influential in the English language. Should that be in the lead? I would think so.
- In the third para. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:05, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I suggest for those in the Deaf community that the title for the school for the deaf be in capital letters, as it includes "dumb" (Edinburgh School for the Deaf and Dumb), or the word be changed to "mute".
- Since it's not the actual name of the school (proper noun), changed to "mute". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:12, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- How does Johnson resolve his impoverished past with his comment that if Americans wanted representation they should purchase an estate in England? Surely this logic was as misguided in 1775 as it is today, or am I simply an unfortunate obdurate helpless American?
- It is my limited understanding that Tourettes sufferers cannot control their tics, regardless of place or circumstance. The detail about his movements upon entering a house, therefore, sound more like Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. Has anyone suggested this or a combination of the two? I see the quote with "obsessive compulsive" but that seems merely a description of the tics, rather than a posthumous diagnosis.
- Replied below, pls let me know if you think I should add more clarification. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:23, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- At this time I don't feel I'm knowledgeable enough to comment on Johnson's literary works. I'd like to be able to read similar articles within the next day or so. --Moni3 (talk) 17:53, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It is my limited understanding that Tourettes sufferers cannot control their tics, regardless of place or circumstance. People with Tourette's don't usually consider themselves as "sufferers", rather individuals or people :-) For a full understanding of the semi-voluntary, temporarily suppressible nature of tics, please see tic or Tourette syndrome; yours is a common misunderstanding. Although the minority of people who have severe TS may have less ability to manage or suppress tics, most people with tics are quite able to "manage" the expression of their tics or control and suppress them to some degree for some amount of time (perfectly consistent with the descriptions of Johnson's TS). Posting from the plane (how cool is that); if you feel this needs more clarification within this article, I can do that when I get home, but I feel that might be going off-topic just to clear up a common misconception about tics and Tourette's that is already covered in their own articles. You can also see in the Tourette syndrome article that a subset of OCD (tic-related OCD, distinct from classic OCD) is thought by most researchers to be etiologically linked to Tourette's, so again, covering the TS/OCD connection in this article would amount to providing basic background detail about Tourette's, when the amount of space devoted to his Tourette's has already been criticized. If you feel we should again add back some info on his TS, I can work on that when I'm home, but that would be contrary to what other reviewers have already requested wrt minimizing the TS info. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:21, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 1) I didn't realize that the 4:00 PM comment was still there. Its quite comical now. Originally, I was going to put the time in which the doctor was rushed form, baptism, etc, since it all happened very quickly. "If his wife is well off, why is he so poor?" Its one of those mysteries of life. Perhaps they lost a lot of money from various things, or Johnson's lack of income caused problems. The same mystery happened to his father. If someone can figure this out, they are welcome to put it in the biography. I could never find the answer. :) 2) "Gosh, he wrote a dictionary that became influential in the English language. Should that be in the lead? I would think so." Isn't it? Paragraph three, I think. 3) "the title for the school for the deaf be in capital letters, as it includes "dumb" (Edinburgh School for the Deaf and Dumb), or the word be changed to "mute"." It wasn't a school's name, and I don't think a school was directly made after his advice. I could be wrong, but if there was one, the proper name should be put in its place, or introduced. 4) "How does Johnson resolve his impoverished past with his comment that if Americans wanted representation they should purchase an estate in England?" He died. Thats how. :P 5)
Support. My initial reaction was “you must be joking – where are all the references to the most important aspects of the man’s life" – such as his kind remarks about Iona Abbey and Flora MacDonald (which I note doesn't yet appear in the former article either...)?
However, I reluctantly accept that this article is not Samuel Johnson and Scotland and that the things that are of interest to me may have to be glossed over here. I can’t find significant fault with the text from a technical point of view and I realise we could spend all day arguing over the relative importance of the sections. Happily, prior to reading the article I knew very little about the man beyond his excursion to the Hebrides and less about literary theory. I am inclined to agree with some of the grumbles about the length of the early life section.
- The Early life section has now been shortened, with more aggressive application of Summary style. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:52, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Here are some comments.
* I presume "threw more light on his authour" contains an archaic spelling rather than a typo
- Correct, see here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:36, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't understand the use of italics in the William Gerard Hamilton quotation
- Per WP:MOS#Italics, when the quoted text is in italics, we should also italicize. It's italicized in the source. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:44, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I am uncomfortable that "Literary philosophy" uses a single authority as a reference.
- John Needham was added as a source to the newly titled "Critical theory" section. SandyGeorgia (Talk)
- "Johnson was willint to discuss Shakespeare's faults" has a typo
- Corrected. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:23, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Thomas Babington Macaulay, 1st Baron Macaulay" and "John Buchan, 1st Baron Tweedsmuir" are nonsenses and if MOS supports such usage, it should be changed.
- Yes, those are the correct article names, apparently dictated by Wiki naming conventions. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:49, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I too found the "dead wife" a little odd.
- Rearranged.[57] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:12, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- There seem to be unnecessary spaces in refs #20, 23
- I can't find these. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:23, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Refs 95, 207 aren't linked and 96 lacks a date and a link
- Fixed (silly Harvnbs). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:23, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Refs 173 and 198 may be missing something
- Corrected. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:26, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Murray and Pearce refs - I usually see (pdf) placed outside of the link, but its probably fine the way it is.
- Corrected. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:23, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- " Leavis, FR" and " Watkins, W. B. C." - apparently inconsistent use of periods.
Corrected. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:23, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Finally, well done to Awadewit for persisting and attempting to summarise the unresolved issues. I understand that some stupid bot explodes if sub-sections are used in these discussions, but it's my view that they work for us and not the other way round. Anyone wishing to use one like "List of unresolved issues" here will get a round of applause from me (presumably it could be removed again at the end?) Ben MacDui 18:05, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for pointing out some of the minor citation issues; literary articles on Wiki apparently all use a citation method which is utterly foreign and nonsensical to the standard used on medical articles, so we've ended up with some slipups and text that can't be translated between articles without completely changing citation style. Now, putting on the FAC delegate hat, when reviewers refer to specific ref numbers, it's hard to track them down because often the article and ref numbers change before the next person can check them. I found some of the issues you refer to,[59] but wasn't able to find them all (for example, I can't find any missing spaces). There are two citations that need to be sorted by Ottava, who has the literary sources. It would be helpful if reviewers specified the exact citation rather than the citation number, as they often change in Wiki articles. Also, with respect to summarizing work remaining and speaking as the person who has the pleasure of reading these 100KB+ FACs, usually when a FAC grows too long, it's a good indication that reviewers have placed a lot of line-by-line commentary on the FAC that might be better summarized on the article talk page. Unless someone summarizes remaining issues to the article talk page before I get to it, I will do that on article talk tomorrow. Although I'm not aware of much work remaining; reviewers should be striking issues as they are addressed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:51, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree that more Scottish related information should be present somewhere on Wikipedia. I think that I could put it into his political views page, which I am slowly developing. If you have any bits of interest that you would like seen, place it on my talk page or on this page's talk page so I can work on it. 1) "contains an archaic spelling rather than a typo" Yes. 2) I didn't understand it either. I assume it was shouting or some emotional inflection that is hard to capture in words. 3) "uses a single authority as a reference" That authority, Donald Greene, is one of Johnson's bibliographers, biographers, and someone who has devoted his while life. Yeah, I could mix it up a bit, but a few of those quotes are actually Johnson's words or Johnson's writings that were not in an easy publication to quote, or were just unattributed by Greene. By the way, he was one of the main editors of Johnson's complete works (fifteen volumes). He worked with Bate 14 other scholars to put together a complete edited works, so hes a strong authority. It was hard to put him in anywhere else, and he devoted a book to the topic, so, yeah. Otherwise I would have to cite Bate even more. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:03, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for your kind offer. He may have been a Scotophobe, but at least he took the trouble to visit the Gaeltacht and I think of him as a likeable rogue rather than perfidious Albion personified. I am told that "Late but Live" is wonderful. I have a few quotes dotted about the isles and if time permits I'll cut and paste a few. My favourite can be found at Ulva: "When the islanders were reproached with their ignorance or insensibility of the wonders of Staffa, they had not much to reply. They had indeed considered it little, because they had always seen it; and none but philosophers, nor they always, are struck with wonder otherwise than by novelty." Ben MacDui 07:36, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I wanted to note that I will add in some stuff from John Needham into the section, split it off onto its own page, and contain a little about Johnson's political philosophy and ethical philosophy. I would then rename the section philosophy, so it will have three literary philosophies, general moral philosophy and general politics. I need to go now, but tomorrow morning I will have something put together. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:38, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support I found this an interesting and compelling article - perhaps more in-depth discussion of his work can be found at the Works of Dr. Johnson but until such time there's enough meat on the bone for me, the lay-reader to enjoy a general discussion of his life and works. Excellent stuff. --Joopercoopers (talk) 16:10, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks Joopercoopers! There's a lot for Ottava cover (I'm only responsible for accuracy of the Tourette syndrome content, and Malleus is the expert copyeditor). Ottava has now built an entire template of Johnson-related articles at {{Samuel Johnson}} SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:09, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've always hated that word "expert", but thanks from me too Joopercoopers. IMO Ottava has done, and is doing, a great job. I just hope it's going to prove to be enough to satisfy at least the majority of the gainsayers, as I think he deserves it and the article deserves it. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 19:18, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks Joopercoopers! There's a lot for Ottava cover (I'm only responsible for accuracy of the Tourette syndrome content, and Malleus is the expert copyeditor). Ottava has now built an entire template of Johnson-related articles at {{Samuel Johnson}} SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:09, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support with two of the smallest of gripes. First, the section entitled "Final moments" covers two-and-a-half years! Isn't this extending the definition of "moments" somewhat? I'd suggest something like "Last years" may be more appropriate. Second, should "Health" be a subsection of "Character" - they seem to be independent aspects of the man? Notwithstanding these quibbles, this is a first-class article, fully deserving of its promotion which I trust to see soon. Brianboulton (talk) 21:17, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Good points, Brian; thanks. Will see what Ottava wants to do with those two. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:20, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I split the difference and changed it to "final years". If last years sounds better, replace it with that. I boosted "health" into a primary subheading instead of a secondary. If you think it is not appropriate, then I can change. However, I think the character sketch matches more of the personaly, where health matches more of the physicality, of the man. Does that seem appropriate? Ottava Rima (talk) 21:44, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Fine by me Brianboulton (talk) 22:47, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Diff. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:46, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Good points, Brian; thanks. Will see what Ottava wants to do with those two. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:20, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support I am happy to support this comprehensive, well-researched, and well-written article. I applaud the teamwork and effort that have gone into improving it over the two weeks, but I particularly want to congratulate Ottava Rima on a job well done. Thank you for writing an excellent article on this important man of letters from a century we are both clearly fascinated by. Awadewit (talk) 04:22, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I know that Christopher Smart is pretty important, but I didn't think it was that well written.... Thanks Awadewit. Sorry about the tension. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:33, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments from Editorofthewiki
- Character sketch
- First off, is "Character sketch" an acceptable heading title? Why not something like "personality" or the like? --I'm an Editorofthewiki[citation needed] 18:45, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Hogarth thought Johnson an "ideot, whom his relations had put under the care of Mr. Richardson"." Is this the actual quote, or is "ideot" a misspelling of idiot? If it is a misspelling, then obviously it should be corrected; if not, then you should add {{sic}} to it. --I'm an Editorofthewiki[citation needed] 18:48, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Major works
- What is your definition of "major"? Can you list all of his works? Since this would possibly be too long, you could split it into something like Bibilography of Samuel Johnson. --I'm an Editorofthewiki[citation needed] 18:51, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Character sketch
- The "Character sketch" title has been there since the beginning. I don't know who created it. I don't know what to call it. It mostly just deals with the type of character he was, or at least how people think of him. If you have a better suggestion for a title, vet it and see what people think. The word "ideot" is Hogarth's spelling. I would feel awkward putting a template about a quote. I don't know what is standard procedure for such. His major works right now have all of his published collections except for a few things that would be hard to add. Mostly, if it is mentioned in the Biography, it made it into the Major Works. There are more per Greene (such as some stray poems), but the section is mostly reserved for pages that would meet Wikipedia Notability. A bibliography page of Johnson would be nice, but unwieldy. There are over 15 volumes of his "complete works" by Yale, and this is with trimming. This does not include the various publications and various altered publications (different editions, different titles, etc). It will have to be something discussed and put on hold. If you have any suggestions, please place them on the talk page so we can remember. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:40, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support I read the entire article, I made some minor wording changes to improve flow that you should feel free to revert if you prefer the previous wording. I found the article comprehensive and informative, a very nice one page view of Dr. Samuel Johnson. I liked the lead which I felt summarized the article very well. I liked the quotes that used the actual spelling - such as "ideot" and the like - the old English and old American quotes are full of these what we would call misspellings when compared to present day standards and it is refreshing to read them in their original form. Ben Franklin used the word "shew" instead of "show" - when we use actual quotes, we can more readily hear the person actually saying the quote. A bit of research proved that the sources were very good. I think the article is worthy of FA status. Thanks. NancyHeise talk 21:15, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you Nancy. Many of your trimmings and rewordings were very insightful. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:40, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Potential wikilinks:
- English literature
- Walter Jackson Bate
- John Hawkesworth (book editor)
- Jacob Tonson
- Topham Beauclerk
- William Gerard Hamilton
- Yvor Winters
- F. R. Leavis
- Ling.Nut (talk—WP:3IAR) 10:08, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Added some - the Tonson is the wrong one. It was his nephew's son of the same name. I will have to create a page when I can wrangle an 18th century printer's book from a rare book's librarian. I don't have 300 dollars to buy one myself. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:43, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support A thorough and valuable reference, well worth FA status.
My only disappointment is that there is noquotation from Johnson's splendid letter to Lord Chesterfield:couldn't you add a short excerpt?--NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 10:41, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Added. I think I chose the most powerful lines. What do you think? Ottava Rima (talk) 14:43, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Spot on. Thank you—and good luck. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 17:05, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Very impressive and comprehensive article about an important subject, together with the related articles that the nominators have been developing.--Grahame (talk) 15:12, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support; well written and well referenced. The above opposition does not concern me. Giggy (talk) 10:01, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. (Disclaimer: I gave input to Samuel Johnson #Health.) The article is a bit too long, but is clearly FA quality. I suggest cutting Samuel Johnson #Legacy first; do we really need those boring lists of Johnson societies and Johnson biographies? Also, one nit: the quote "is the finest gentleman I have ever seen" appears twice; surely once is enough. Eubulides (talk) 09:44, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Removed the double quote. Also cut the listing of societies. The biographies are important enough to deserve a line or so, as the ones listed are only the notable biographies of Johnson. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:51, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong support. I like it. I like it a lot. I have uploaded two of the public domain sources onto Wikisource, and two others that looked like they might be useful sources. SEE s:Author:Samuel_Johnson#Transcription_projects. e.g. s:Page:Johnsonian Miscellanies II.djvu/168 is Hoole describing Johnson's death as "the most awful sight" in print. A tour through the northern counties of England, and the borders of Scotland is mentioned in the articles list of references, but I cant see it being used in the article; has something been lost? The two volumes of that book are now available on Wikisource. Nice work Ottava. John Vandenberg (chat) 20:26, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Amazing eye. The Warner ref was used in the page until the beginning sections were cut and Samuel Johnson's early life was created. It comes up under [Early career] - "Richard Warner kept Johnson's account of the scene". Thanks. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 21:39, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 171 kbs! Wow! What a FAC! Isn't it time to close it as keep (don't count me again!) as it obviously deserves it?--Yannismarou (talk) 10:55, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. This is fantastic. I'll be eager to see the good Dr grace the main page of the Wiki talk shop. The writing is clinical—I enjoyed the absence of interjection that I have found in some of our older lit FAs. The desolation of 'Final years', for example, is allowed to speak for itself.
In an article so large I suppose it's perverse to suggest more is needed... The Preface to the Dictionary might deserve a bit of extra attention, such as his views on the role of language in shaping national identity. One thing that does need a sentence is the playfulness of some of the Dictionary entries (think "oats"). Marskell (talk) 13:41, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Could you leave a message on the talk page of the Dictionary page to remind me? I need to clean that up (in general) and expand it some more, and your comments would be helpful and much appreciated. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 14:16, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've suggested a few on the Talk page. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 22:03, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support I read a section at random, and the prose was generally excellent. I took a look at the rest of the page, also, and I have no concerns about comprehensiveness. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 17:13, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Weak support I read the entire article and what is there is FA quality, although I can be persuaded that it lacks something. Re the reactions to Awadewit's question to reviewers, and opposition to the FAC, I say Awadewit is entitled to both. In answer to Awadewit's question, I prefer that an article about an author stick to the author and summarize the author's works only to the extent necessary to explain the important points of the author's life. I am left with some questions about Samuel Johnson. Why did he have so many friends? Was it because of his mannerisms? Or despite them? Did he have friends because he was a celebrity, or was he a celebrity because he had friends? I doubt that an examination of his own works would answer those questions; I think his friend Boswell's works had a lot to do with it. I would prefer that the Major works list be in strict chronological order; the subcategories do nothing for me. I would rather see the categorical information in a note after each item as is done for the Messiah entry. --Una Smith (talk) 05:33, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- To balance this opinion I would like to proffer my own tuppence worth, and say that I like the works being listed within genre. This way we know what eg "London" is. In a single list a description would be required by half the items saying eg "Periodical" or "poem" or "pamphlet" etc etc. IMO that would be tiresome. Also, if any man can shew any just, citable source for the issue of how come Dr Johnson had lots of friends, let him now speak, or else hereafter for ever hold his peace almost-instinct 10:48, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- PS Support, with admiration[60]
- I would prefer a strict chronology because it shows more clearly the smaller works he was working on while incubating the larger ones, or vice versa. Or, categorize the major works without dates, and add a separate chronology that includes things such as his major trips, his various jobs, when he started working on something, etc. In effect, I have in mind two navigational aids instead of one that tries to do double duty. --Una Smith (talk) 16:16, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- To balance this opinion I would like to proffer my own tuppence worth, and say that I like the works being listed within genre. This way we know what eg "London" is. In a single list a description would be required by half the items saying eg "Periodical" or "poem" or "pamphlet" etc etc. IMO that would be tiresome. Also, if any man can shew any just, citable source for the issue of how come Dr Johnson had lots of friends, let him now speak, or else hereafter for ever hold his peace almost-instinct 10:48, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Revisiting. Such is the importance of this bio, I felt I needed to come back for another look. There was something that didn't sit right with me about the lead. Thinking it through:
- Johnson's specific works (at a minimum the Dictionary) need to be mentioned in the first three or four sentences. "... viewed as the preeminent British dictionary" tells us it was important, but I almost feel it should be more emphatic. Along with the major sources of vocab (Bible, Shakespeare, Milton), and the codification of orthography by the London printing presses, Johnson's dictionary is the most important influence on Modern English. The lead and body need to make that clear.
- In turn, TS needs to be shuffled to the end of the lead and it should be decoupled from the Boswell mention. Life of is mentioned in one sentence and TS in the next breath, suggesting that scholarship has elevated this aspect. Not so. The 'Health' section itself I find good and well balanced. I'm sure Sandy put all of her TLC into it.
- Actually, Colin and Eubulides get the credit for the final version, IMO. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:15, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This does (eek) amount to major surgery on the lead. My overall support doesn't change. Marskell (talk) 09:04, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- About the Dictionary - I know its important. You know its important. However, it is hard to track down a statement like that (or one written by a reliable scholar that can be trusted). If someone wants to put forth a proposal for the lead, feel free. I backed off from editing it (the lead) when a bunch of people starting having various suggestions and I could no longer keep up with who wanted what and where consensus was going. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:14, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I found some sources while browsing my local library online the other day, but I passed them over as they all seemed to verge on WP:PEACOCKery and I thought Ottava's sources to be superior. If we need to add some superlatives to the lead (which may also satisfy Davemon), I can search again, but I'd prefer we use Ottava's sources. Marskell: a question. The reason Boswell and TS are "coupled" is that it is precisely the strength of the evidence in the various writings about Johnson, including Boswell's detailed descriptions, that allow for the retrospective diagnosis. We can uncouple them if you think that best, but that is the issue. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:15, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think if we try and rank the importance of the Dictionary, as I do above, we need a source. But if we simply write "...had a lasting impact on Modern English" it would clearly qualify as unlikely to be challenged.
- We don't necessarily need to decouple. But between the sentence introducing Boswell and the TS sentence, we need a third sentence that describes the Life on its literary merits. Not doing so leaves a due weight issue in the very first paragraph. Marskell (talk) 15:39, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- ah, yes, I see; will leave the addition of that that clause or sentence to Ottava. I left some (rather useless) comments on talk here; Ottava likely has better sources for addressing these two issues. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:54, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I found this in Bate (p. 240) - "Johnson pushed aside his hesitations and started on his monumental Dictionary of the English Language. The finished work, nine years later, easily ranks as one of the greatest single achievements of scholarship, and probably the grreatest ever performed by one individual who labored under anything like the disadvantages in a comparable length of time." on Boswell's Life (p. xix) "Johnson's own conception of the 'uses' of biography changed the whole course of biography for the modern world. One by-product was the most famous single work of biographical art in the whole of literature, Boswell's Life of Johnson, and there were many other memoirs and biographies of a similar kind written on Johnson after his death." Ottava Rima (talk) 16:03, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- ah, yes, I see; will leave the addition of that that clause or sentence to Ottava. I left some (rather useless) comments on talk here; Ottava likely has better sources for addressing these two issues. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:54, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I found some sources while browsing my local library online the other day, but I passed them over as they all seemed to verge on WP:PEACOCKery and I thought Ottava's sources to be superior. If we need to add some superlatives to the lead (which may also satisfy Davemon), I can search again, but I'd prefer we use Ottava's sources. Marskell: a question. The reason Boswell and TS are "coupled" is that it is precisely the strength of the evidence in the various writings about Johnson, including Boswell's detailed descriptions, that allow for the retrospective diagnosis. We can uncouple them if you think that best, but that is the issue. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:15, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree with Marskell's proposed changes to the lead. Re the importance of the dictionary, the article later says it was a best seller for a very long time. I think that information belongs in the lead. --Una Smith (talk) 16:14, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Already there, ala "The Dictionary brought Johnson popularity and success; until the completion of the Oxford English Dictionary, 150 years later, Johnson's was viewed as the preeminent British dictionary.[3]" Ottava Rima (talk) 19:41, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I was hoping for more. On reading again at the section about the dictionary, I don't see that it was a best seller at all. That was my own supposition. Isn't there any information about the size of the print runs? The number of copies sold? --Una Smith (talk) 05:40, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "At the time of Johnson's death in 1784, and thirty years after its first publication, there were about 6,000 copies of the complete English editions of the Dictionary in circulation, in addition to a few hundred copies of two limited Dublin issues of 177 and 1777. This is not a great number." (Hitchings, p.211) almost-instinct 08:05, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- But I see that information is already in A Dictionary of the English Language page almost-instinct 08:15, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- New content about the Dictionary and Life of Johnson was added, but Samuel Johnson is currently at 10,000 words and uses Summary style to cover the abundance of information about Johnson. Details about the Dictionary are at A Dictionary of the English Language. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:49, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm fine with it now. I might still prefer the Dictionary mention in the first paragraph, but on the whole I see no due weight issues in the lead anymore. Marskell (talk) 10:02, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think the Dictionary is far more important than the Tourette syndrome business. In fact, I suggest moving the lead and body text about the latter to Retrospective diagnosis, and leaving here just a sentence about his mannerisms and post hoc diagnoses thereof. The relevant text necessarily goes into a lot of background information about the syndrome, and into the history of discussion of Johnson's mannerisms, and both topics strike me as tangents outside the scope of this article. --Una Smith (talk) 19:53, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I would not be in favour of such a reorganisation. This is the biography of a man who happened to be an author, not an author who happened to be a man. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 20:00, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think a simple question is this - how best do you understand an individual: is it through their work, or is it through the way in which they acted and reacted towards others? Every biography on Johnson (there are over 200 as of now) discusses his personality and that "persona" was dominated by his TS. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:30, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think the Dictionary is far more important than the Tourette syndrome business. In fact, I suggest moving the lead and body text about the latter to Retrospective diagnosis, and leaving here just a sentence about his mannerisms and post hoc diagnoses thereof. The relevant text necessarily goes into a lot of background information about the syndrome, and into the history of discussion of Johnson's mannerisms, and both topics strike me as tangents outside the scope of this article. --Una Smith (talk) 19:53, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm fine with it now. I might still prefer the Dictionary mention in the first paragraph, but on the whole I see no due weight issues in the lead anymore. Marskell (talk) 10:02, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I was hoping for more. On reading again at the section about the dictionary, I don't see that it was a best seller at all. That was my own supposition. Isn't there any information about the size of the print runs? The number of copies sold? --Una Smith (talk) 05:40, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Already there, ala "The Dictionary brought Johnson popularity and success; until the completion of the Oxford English Dictionary, 150 years later, Johnson's was viewed as the preeminent British dictionary.[3]" Ottava Rima (talk) 19:41, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Looking again at the lead, I was struck by the unnecessary repetition in the sentence He is also the subject of one of the most celebrated biographies in English, James Boswell's Life of Samuel Johnson, described as "the most famous single work of biographical art in the whole of literature". Shouldn't the words one of the most celebrated biographies in English simply be omitted? We know it's in English; and if it's the most celebrated in the whole of literature, it must also be the most celebrated in the subset that is English literature. (This in no way detracts from my support for the article.) --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 11:44, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- See my further comments on the Talk page. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 14:19, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I changed the lead here. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:40, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- See my further comments on the Talk page. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 14:19, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- tl;dr but provisional Support ;) – looks good, but tripped over some irritating phrases so have raised that on the talk page and hope to give the whole article detailed appraisal soon. [just kidding about tl;dr, only pressure of time is delaying my settling down to read it carefully] . . dave souza, talk 11:47, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, Dave; changes on talk addressed, pls have a look. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:58, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Are "farreaching" and "preeminent" (in the lead) acceptable? I would expect hyphenation, and so would my in-line (inline?) spell checker. jimfbleak (talk) 06:13, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Preeminent and far-reaching. So, 50/50. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:21, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Isn't that an American dictionary? Samuel Johnson was English, so we should use English spellings. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 15:45, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- My OECD has far-reaching and pre-eminent, so I suggest that's what we go with. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 17:03, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If anyone was wondering, Johnson's dictionary has preeminent and no "far-reaching" or "farreaching" in my edition. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 20:17, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- My OECD has far-reaching and pre-eminent, so I suggest that's what we go with. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 17:03, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support It appears to be FA standard to me, and meets all criteria. I am glad to see their is a hyphen now in pre-eminent! I think the page should be in conventional and accepted English - preeminent is not, no matter what Johnson's dictionary says. This spage has taken a lot of work and effort and seems to cover all aspects of Johnson's life well. Doubtless scholars will always argue over some aspects of his life and works, but that is no reason for it not to pass FA. Giano (talk) 10:14, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Has any FAC taken any longer than this to assess? (It's been more than a month...whoo!) Otherwise, support. --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 03:32, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hello everyone: why is this nomination still here after nearly six week, is it? This is a bad precedent. FACs should be through and out more quickly, IMO, or shunted to a holding pen for improvement. This one, it seems from my reading of the article and of this nomination page, should be promoted. Tony (talk) 14:55, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not concerned. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:11, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Raul can take as long as he wants, as long as this becomes an FA so it can be on the mainpage for Johnson's 300th birthday on 18 September 2009. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 02:55, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Strongly Oppose per Awadewit. Are we really considering an apologia which contends that Johnson's relationship with Austen was not influence? Is there a time-machine to permit Austen to influence Johnson? Indeed, are we really considering arguments that FAC should not be based on consensus? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:27, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Awadewit is supporting this article. Are there any of the points she raised – which she presumably feels were satisfactorily dealt with – that you do not?--Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 18:32, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I noticed one point that wasn't big, but I meant to slide it in and forgot. I remedied it: here. It could be cleaned up a little. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:50, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I note the recent expansion. I do not consider it sufficient; and I do consider that the hysterical incivility with which Awadewit was treated should disqualify in any case. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:52, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- For myself, the writing is not what I would wish for our front page:
- Boswell's Life, along with other biographies, documented Johnson's behaviour and mannerisms in such detail that they have informed the posthumous diagnosis of Tourette syndrome (TS),[5] a condition unknown to 18th-century physicians. Informed? No; nor should this be the lead sentence in its paragraph.
- in the nursing care of Joan Marklew Surely, even for those too mealy-mouthed to use wet-nurse, as Johnson would have done, there are clearer ways to express this, less suggestive of a 21st century hospice administrator?
- Johnson could not bring himself to regard the poem as granting him any merit as a poet. Granting? Poems do not grant; this is the difference between the lightning and the lightning bug.
- However, not all of his work was confined to The Rambler. Why the inversion? Why suggest, as this does, that Johnson was published by other periodicals? Johnson also published outside the Rambler would be an improvement, and is probably not best.
- If this were a proper introduction to his work for others, it would not be immediately followed by the self-published Vanity of Human Wishes; in either case, it should be clearer. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:15, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- By acknowledging that he published a work on his own, then you acknowledged that his works were published in areas beyond the Rambler and you therefore have no point. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:23, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Is Ottava Rima really taking the position that a paragraph should have a topic sentence which has nothing to do with its contents? If so, this requires extensive review and rewriting. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:30, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- By acknowledging that he published a work on his own, then you acknowledged that his works were published in areas beyond the Rambler and you therefore have no point. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:23, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If this were a proper introduction to his work for others, it would not be immediately followed by the self-published Vanity of Human Wishes; in either case, it should be clearer. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:15, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- These are four samples from a quick read. Doubtless many more lurk.. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:52, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- He did complete one poem, the first of his tutorial exercises, on which he spent comparable time, and which provoked surprise and applause. Comparable to what? Was his time unusually long, short, or average, and what was it? For that matter, what poem was it? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:58, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- To quickly dismiss: "I do not consider it sufficient" Read WP:WEIGHT then. "Informed? No;" Incorrect. "Surely, even for those too mealy-mouthed" Mere opinion. "Granting? Poems do not grant;" Incorrect. "Why suggest, as this does, that Johnson was published by other periodicals?" He was. "Was his time unusually long, short, or average, and what was it?" Just as arbitrary. "For that matter, what poem was it?" Its lost. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:01, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for confirming the allegations made by others on this page; if Ottava Rima continues to dismiss the reaction of other editors, which this page is intended to elicit, I would suggest that xe be removed. (I will not make fun of the abuse of "its"; I hope that at least is a typo.()[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] PMAnderson 19:11, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I would ask for you to stop your hostile manner and to respect that Awadewit has struck her previous oppose. Otherwise, your comment is severely misleading and disrespectful to her. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:21, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for confirming the allegations made by others on this page; if Ottava Rima continues to dismiss the reaction of other editors, which this page is intended to elicit, I would suggest that xe be removed. (I will not make fun of the abuse of "its"; I hope that at least is a typo.()[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] PMAnderson 19:11, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- To quickly dismiss: "I do not consider it sufficient" Read WP:WEIGHT then. "Informed? No;" Incorrect. "Surely, even for those too mealy-mouthed" Mere opinion. "Granting? Poems do not grant;" Incorrect. "Why suggest, as this does, that Johnson was published by other periodicals?" He was. "Was his time unusually long, short, or average, and what was it?" Just as arbitrary. "For that matter, what poem was it?" Its lost. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:01, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- He did complete one poem, the first of his tutorial exercises, on which he spent comparable time, and which provoked surprise and applause. Comparable to what? Was his time unusually long, short, or average, and what was it? For that matter, what poem was it? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:58, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If this is a lost work, the article should say so; there is no need to explain to me, but the reader has a right to have things clear. (If the evidence for this is Johnson's memory, half a century later, that should be said too, perhaps in a footnote.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:33, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "If this is a lost work, the article should say so" please provide a reliable source confirming this claim. Thank you. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:37, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Let me see. I asked for details on this supposed first poem of Johnson's yesterday; if I read the article, I would want them. Ottava Rima replied that it was lost, implying that we don't know. Fine, I accept that in good faith; and if it is lost, we should explain that to the reader too. Today OR demands citation for the same assertion, for which I am taking xer word. What has changed since yesterday? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:17, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If this is a lost work, the article should say so; there is no need to explain to me, but the reader has a right to have things clear. (If the evidence for this is Johnson's memory, half a century later, that should be said too, perhaps in a footnote.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:33, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Johnson's Anglicanism and conservatism are reflected in his early work. Really? Is Taxation no Tyranny early?
- Boswell held an opinion contradictory to two of these pamphlets. Why? Why not Boswell disagreed with two of them? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:27, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Saying something is found in early works does not preclude it from being found in later works. However, it shows how those early works are characterized. And a "contradictory opinion" means no compatibility, whereas a "disagreement" would allow for such. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:14, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Does not preclude; but there is a strong implication it is not found. What evidence do you have of so novel a claim as a change in Johnson's worldview? I shall tag. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:25, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, so saying something exists in his early life is to say that it no longer exists in his later life, and that the person isn't that way? Please provide a reliable source to any kind of rhetorician, logician, or philosopher who has posited such a belief. I would expect that since you are so determined on it, that you will have one easily available, so I will give you a 12 hour deadline to produce such text. Thank you. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:35, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The word's gone, the context is gone, both through OR's own edit, which has also materially tightened the text. What is OR complaining about?
- Okay, so saying something exists in his early life is to say that it no longer exists in his later life, and that the person isn't that way? Please provide a reliable source to any kind of rhetorician, logician, or philosopher who has posited such a belief. I would expect that since you are so determined on it, that you will have one easily available, so I will give you a 12 hour deadline to produce such text. Thank you. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:35, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Does not preclude; but there is a strong implication it is not found. What evidence do you have of so novel a claim as a change in Johnson's worldview? I shall tag. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:25, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Saying something is found in early works does not preclude it from being found in later works. However, it shows how those early works are characterized. And a "contradictory opinion" means no compatibility, whereas a "disagreement" would allow for such. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:14, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Any submission to WP may expect merciless editing; it says so in the edit screen. That goes doubly for FAC; if editors think something is misleading, it has misled at least one reader, and should be reconsidered on that ground alone.
- I will, however, make a last suggestion. If Ottava Rima stops defending every bit of xer prose, and goes and does something else for a little while, xe will probably come back to a better article; it may even have a star on it - and it will differ chiefly in recasting a few sentences; without a diff, it will be hard to tell which ones. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:35, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- +Support Sorry to be so late... back in the dark ages of yesteryear, I thought Awadewit had a point, that Johnson's influence needed some work. I am very happy to say that I join Awadewit in Supporting this article. Bearing in mind that no article of this importance can be all things to all people, and cannot ever be truly perfect, I think this represents a high standard of professional writing and an informative/insightful look into Johnson. Ling.Nut (talk—WP:3IAR) 06:56, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral - I'm sorry I took so loong to come back here, I decided to disengage for a while and see if it sorted itself out. It did! =) Consider my oppose above struck, and if you can find it in the wall of text, strike it yourself =) There are a few (very minor) points of grammar and style and that kind of thing that I think could probably make this just that tiny bit better:
Lead:
- "Johnson was a devout and compassionate man..." - I'm not entirely comfortable with making unattributed value judgements. Can it be attributed in some way, even if rather generally, e.g. "Johnson was considered a devout and compassionate man"?
- "...he respected those of other denominations who demonstrated a commitment to Christ's teachings." - In the context of the time, this is significant - the mutual bad feelings and persecutions by Protestants of Catholics and vice versa pretty much define large parts of English history, after all - but I don't think its relevance is immediately apparent to those not familiar with the history of Christianity. Maybe leave it out of the lead, and just keep the discussion in the body, if that doesn't cause problems?
- "Towards the end of his life, he produced the massive and influential Lives of the Most Eminent English Poets, which includes biographies and evaluations of 17th- and 18th-century poets." - I know this is a manual of style thing, but it seems a little odd to switch between past and present tense in this way. Maybe it would be better to ignore all rules here and make the whole thing past tense.
- "Boswell's Life, along with other biographies, documented Johnson's behaviour and mannerisms in such detail that they have informed the posthumous diagnosis of Tourette syndrome (TS)..." - "have informed" seems a little awkward.
- "Have informed" is so medically precise for that sentence that I don't know how to change it; someone else may have an idea, but we already worked that over with Colin and Eubulides, so I'm not sure who else to ask. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 10:39, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Early life
- It might be good to say explicitly that kings were believed to be able to cure scrofula at the time, if the reader didn't know that, I would presume they'd be confused by the business with Queen Anne.
- I wouldn't abbreviate Tourette's syndrome to TS. It's slightly distracting. I'd save the abbreviation solely for the section on the disease.
- I didn't find a TS abbreviation in "Early life", but I did find and change one in "Early career". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 10:39, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- There's a TS in the lead.
- The mention in early life includes Although TS caused problems in his private and public life, it lent Johnson "great verbal and vocal energy". If this is about Johnson's childhood, it should say so; if (as seems more likely), it's about the whole of Johnson's life, it should be moved to Health. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:51, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ah, thanks; now I see the instance he was referring to. Both seem to be correct applications of definition of acronyms: in the lead, right after the term, and in early life, also right after the term. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:03, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I didn't find a TS abbreviation in "Early life", but I did find and change one in "Early career". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 10:39, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Early career
- "Although the arrangement may seem congenial, Johnson was treated as "a kind of domestick chaplain"." - This sentence is actually rather confusing. What does "may seem congenial" mean, and is it bad to be treated as a domestic chaplain?
- The answer is clear enough, but the article should state it; domestic chaplains in the seventeenth and early eighteenth century were treated as a sort of upper servant, not a gentleman. See any social history of the period, starting with Macaulay. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:26, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "He managed to finish a section but ran into problems, and to complete the work he dictated directly to Hector, who took the copy to the printer and made any corrections." - It's not really clear what the connection is between the two halves of the sentence. Did he dictate to Hector because he was running out of time? Because he found it easier? Something else?
- "A Proposal was printed, but the project was halted by a lack of funds." - It's not clear what this is a proposal for.
- "Edial Hall was a large house with a pyramid-shaped roof and a unique design in which a back room served as the schoolroom and Johnson's family lived in the rest of the building." - If this is in one of the daughter articles, I'd cut this sentence to be better in line with summary style. It's not that important of information, or not obviously so. Or you could put it into the caption of the image, though I suppose some of the description is obvious from the image. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 10:26, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to have to stop there for the moment, but I will get back to this later on today or tomorrow. I think it just needs a tiny bit more polish to be great. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 10:21, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I made many of the changes per this. I didn't touch the "informed" part. I would leave the medical wording to Sandy to decide. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:35, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- We should not use medical wording; we are written in colloquial English. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:26, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No. We have to be true to the source. We are not allowed to introduce OR, which would include "colloquial English" when describing something based on medical articles. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:31, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Copying a source's wording is not "being true to" the source; it is plagiarism. Perhaps even more seriously, it is a failure to understand, and communicate, what the source means. There are few things more harmful to the encyclopedia.
- Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:40, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Let's get a grip here. Nothing has been plagiarized; I introduced the word "informed" to this contested statement back in July.[61]. I am not a medical expert, but use of the word in this context makes perfect sense to me. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 17:44, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What does it mean? If I have to go find a medical dictionary to check this obscure sense, I will, and then substitute the definition as plain English; but if you understand it, you should be able to express it for the lay reader - as we are, after all, expected to do. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:50, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Just curious, but can you explain how it could be "plagarism" when the sentence is cited? And informed, according to dictionary.com is not "obscure", nor is it used in anything but the modern sense. I used the idea of being "informed" quite often. It means, after all, "To give or provide information.", so it serves as a "colloquial term" quite easily. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:57, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Dictionary.com defines plagiarism as "the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work." Unauthorized and unacknowledged close imitation is plagiarism, as long as it does not have quotation marks. As a notable instance, Doris Kearns Goodwin did footnote the works whose prose she reproduced; the controversy is precisely that she failed to acknowledge the imitation. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:13, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree with you Ottava. "Informed" has no particular medical meaning, and was used quite colloquially. However, I've rewritten the offending sentence to avoid use of the word anyway. I'll let the (baseless and offensive) charge of plagiarism that has been laid against me rest for the moment. (Will this FAC never end?) --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 18:16, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you; I will move it to the second sentence, since the subject of the paragraph is Johnson's appearance and manner; the modern diagnosis is secpndary. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:27, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Let me just say plainly that my goal is to add a little final polish to the article in the last stage of FAC, all major problems having already been dealt with. Now that the FAC has become productive and polite, can we avoid a return to hostilities over my comments on two words, particularly one where I simply thought it inelegant, not actually confusing? =) Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 18:32, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I tend to concur.My only advantage here is that I see the article as it now stands, freshly and apart from past controversies. It is not uniformly well-written; this article above all should be, for we are competing with Johnson and Boswell for the reader's attention. If I could identify more serious deficiencies, I would have. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:37, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Unfortunately, I now doubt all major problems have been dealt with. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:33, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you; I will move it to the second sentence, since the subject of the paragraph is Johnson's appearance and manner; the modern diagnosis is secpndary. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:27, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Just curious, but can you explain how it could be "plagarism" when the sentence is cited? And informed, according to dictionary.com is not "obscure", nor is it used in anything but the modern sense. I used the idea of being "informed" quite often. It means, after all, "To give or provide information.", so it serves as a "colloquial term" quite easily. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:57, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What does it mean? If I have to go find a medical dictionary to check this obscure sense, I will, and then substitute the definition as plain English; but if you understand it, you should be able to express it for the lay reader - as we are, after all, expected to do. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:50, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Let's get a grip here. Nothing has been plagiarized; I introduced the word "informed" to this contested statement back in July.[61]. I am not a medical expert, but use of the word in this context makes perfect sense to me. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 17:44, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Gosh, I missed all the fun. I was going to consult others on a revision for the wording, but it seems resolved now. I'm sorry to see such concise, precise and perfect wording lost to satisfy FAC, but such is the Wiki. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:33, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If it helps, it's not something I have strong feelings on. If you honestly feel the original wording is better, I'm not going to oppose over it. =) Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 20:07, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not going to worry about it either, but I did think the previous wording was just right. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:15, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If it helps, it's not something I have strong feelings on. If you honestly feel the original wording is better, I'm not going to oppose over it. =) Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 20:07, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, I'm afraid that beyond suggesting that the first two sentences of "A Dictionary of the English Language" get combined (They seem to duplicate information), further evaluation will have to be tomorrow. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 19:04, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've merged those two sentences, hopefully to everyone's satisfaction. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 19:43, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Errors and omissions
- As a result of these discussions of phrasing, I consulted the original sources cited for two of them. In both cases, I was surprised by what the source actually said; this is perhaps the worst thing an article can do.
- Although TS caused problems in his private and public life, it lent Johnson "great verbal and vocal energy". in the section on early life.
- The name of the author cited is wrong: Robert DeMaria; and the volume before me is copyright and first published 1993, not 1994.
- DeMaria says that Johnson's efforts to teach were almost certainly ruined by his physical appearance and his failure as a tutor was almost inevitable (with a reference to the contemporary expectation that a tutor would be above all a model of behaviour and deportment). This happily pressed Johnson towards the invisible occupation of authorship.
- DeMaria also cites Oliver Sacks to the effect that TS occasionally lends its victims great verbal and vocal energy. Those who can harness this energy sometimes perform with superior strength and speed
- He then goes on to speak of the "ideot" episode, which ends with Hogarth imagining that the ideot had been at that moment inspired, as a suggestion that Johnson was thus fortunate - but no more.
- DeMaria's POV is clear: that any diagnosis of the dead is anachronistic and problematic; but that something like TS would explain much, and is certainly preferable to anachronistic Freudianism. We need not adopt his POV; but we certainly should not deny it while citing him.
- He did complete one poem, the first of his tutorial exercises, on which he spent comparable time, and which provoked surprise and applause.
- Bate tells, loc. cit. of Johnson's first tutorial exercise, a Latin prose oration, which Johnson composed (two drafts and fair copy) on the morning it was to be submitted. (This may be mere carelessness; it immediately follows, in Bate, the story of Johnson's Latin poem, Somnium.)
- He was expected to repeat it from memory, but failed to memorize it, so he improvised the oration on the spot.
- Our authority for this is Mrs. Thrale's Life, repeating the story he had told her.
- Her words are that this added "astonishment to the applause of all who knew how little was owing to study." [Italics added].
- Neither of these is what our text said; I fixed one, and propose to fix the other. But I cannot now rely on any of this article to represent its sources correctly or completely; it is not the burden of a reviewer to check all hundred footnotes - I am, however, willing to check any one more that Ottava Rima may specify, if I have access to the source. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:00, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Please read the talk page here, Pma. Demaria is one source only, and we covered the TS in great detail on the talk page here. Demaria cites Oliver Sacks for information you want to include, a dubious source at best for TS info, although perhaps applicable for some info which enjoys broad medical consensus (there are some points upon which he is in line with medical consensus, although he's generally not a recognized TS clinician and not well regarded by TS experts). We went over all of this in detail weeks ago. I realize this FAC has been open extraordinarily and unbearably long, but multiple editors who do know TS and who are up on current research and do know what kind of a source Sacks is discusses this in detail on the talk page of this FAC at least a month ago. You have introduced inaccurate text; please catch up on the talk page discussions. The posthumous diagnosis is based on much broader and more solid sourcing and enjoys widespread (to my knowledge, unanimity among published sources) consensus. Read the talk page, thanks. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:04, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've looked at the discussion. The nature of TS is not the omission that I find most serious, and I'm perfectly willing to compromise.
- Please read the talk page here, Pma. Demaria is one source only, and we covered the TS in great detail on the talk page here. Demaria cites Oliver Sacks for information you want to include, a dubious source at best for TS info, although perhaps applicable for some info which enjoys broad medical consensus (there are some points upon which he is in line with medical consensus, although he's generally not a recognized TS clinician and not well regarded by TS experts). We went over all of this in detail weeks ago. I realize this FAC has been open extraordinarily and unbearably long, but multiple editors who do know TS and who are up on current research and do know what kind of a source Sacks is discusses this in detail on the talk page of this FAC at least a month ago. You have introduced inaccurate text; please catch up on the talk page discussions. The posthumous diagnosis is based on much broader and more solid sourcing and enjoys widespread (to my knowledge, unanimity among published sources) consensus. Read the talk page, thanks. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:04, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- In order to omit DeMaria's reservations, we need at least a citation that TS sufferers normally have great verbal and vocal energy, rather than occasionally; which one of the many articles cited says that? More importantly, we need to cite it in Samuel Johnson; the reader should have sources before him, not in the talk page of a FAC. And we should mention that DeMaria's POV exists; he is a reliable source, and probably has more knowledge of Johnson's symptoms that the doctors do. (All this is the sort of thing that should go in footnotes.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:29, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No we don't. We don't need to digress in this article into an analysis of the problems with citing Oliver Sacks who is not a highly regarded clinician among his peers in TS research. You have introduced inaccurate text because you don't know the field and you don't know the sources and you want to introduce information that doesn't enjoy any medical consensus because you came across something that you think makes this text inaccurate. The TS info in this article is well discussed here on talk by two of the other three people on Wiki who know TS research almost as well as I do and who had full access to all sources. We don't introduce inaccurate text and then disclaim it in a footnote, particularly when it's a minor part of the overall bio. If it interests you so much, you can go over to the article about Johnson's health and delve into all the problems with using a person known for his bizarre literary medical interests, but Sacks doesn't belong here as a source. Please read the talk page. But I must thank everyone who deteriorated or questioned the TS text in this article for opening my eyes to content issues that occur at FAC when reviewers who are unfamiliar with the topic or the research introduce inaccurate text. This has given me greater faith in the content experts who actually write the articles. You are wrong and you have introduced in accurate text against consensus already developed here on talk, and there is no middle ground or compromise possible when it comes to including text that is simply wrong. And because of my level of the understanding of the TS research, and how wrong you are, that calls all other literary criticism of this article into question as well. By seeing the level of inaccuracies FAC reviewers tried to introduce to the TS portions of this article at FAC, I've gotten a good eye opening to the other second guessing of knowledgeable content experts that has gone on at FAC. Thanks: this experience will make me a better FAC delegate, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:53, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You propose to cite DeMaria for wording with which he expressly disagrees. He is not the best authority on the subject, and he is following Sacks, a populariser; therefore we may be entitled to do so. But we really do have to indicate that DeMaria does not say what we do, and what authority we cite to overrule him. That need not be difficult; but unless we do so, we are not being verifiable. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:41, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No we don't. We don't need to digress in this article into an analysis of the problems with citing Oliver Sacks who is not a highly regarded clinician among his peers in TS research. You have introduced inaccurate text because you don't know the field and you don't know the sources and you want to introduce information that doesn't enjoy any medical consensus because you came across something that you think makes this text inaccurate. The TS info in this article is well discussed here on talk by two of the other three people on Wiki who know TS research almost as well as I do and who had full access to all sources. We don't introduce inaccurate text and then disclaim it in a footnote, particularly when it's a minor part of the overall bio. If it interests you so much, you can go over to the article about Johnson's health and delve into all the problems with using a person known for his bizarre literary medical interests, but Sacks doesn't belong here as a source. Please read the talk page. But I must thank everyone who deteriorated or questioned the TS text in this article for opening my eyes to content issues that occur at FAC when reviewers who are unfamiliar with the topic or the research introduce inaccurate text. This has given me greater faith in the content experts who actually write the articles. You are wrong and you have introduced in accurate text against consensus already developed here on talk, and there is no middle ground or compromise possible when it comes to including text that is simply wrong. And because of my level of the understanding of the TS research, and how wrong you are, that calls all other literary criticism of this article into question as well. By seeing the level of inaccuracies FAC reviewers tried to introduce to the TS portions of this article at FAC, I've gotten a good eye opening to the other second guessing of knowledgeable content experts that has gone on at FAC. Thanks: this experience will make me a better FAC delegate, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:53, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Errors and omissions" This is wrong. There are no "omissions". There is summarization. Many of the details wishing to be add would not qualify for the page even if it had space that could be put in, as these are not notable details. These are also summarized sections of larger pages. There is also a serious weight issue. Your wanting additional information does not mean that the footnotes do not cite the information that actually exists. These footnotes have been checked by many other reviewers, and your comments above, as with your claims of plagarism, are highly misleading and improper. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:10, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- These "summaries" discussed the wrong work, in the wrong genre, and omitted both the point and the authority of the story about it. We are all of us careless; no doubt I have been; it is the point of FA to find and clean up these errors before they embarrass all of us. If Ottava Rima is not willing to be mercilessly edited, or is tired of it, xe is free to withdraw the nomination; isn't this why Sandy introduced a two-week limit, now long past? The article has plainly improved; take a rest, come back, and improve it again. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:40, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I see very little evidence that any of the sources have been checked, and none for this one. Diff please. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:48, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yesterday your accusation was plagiarism. Today's it's that none of the sources have been checked. These are exactly the kinds of deliberately abrasive remarks that put so many off coming to FAC. I've really had more than enough of this particular one, anyway, so I'm unwatching it. It's way past time somebody made a decision to close this one way or another, and I really couldn't care less which way it closes now, just that it closes. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 12:16, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Many FACs do not check sources; for example, Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Battle of Red Cliffs, in which I was one of the lax ones. There's nothing inherently wrong with this; I would not have checked sources here had I not been curious how to word the passages better. I still see little evidence that reviewers have checked any; which ones have you consulted as co-nom? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:33, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If you dare insinuate that I lied about a source or stole from a source one more time, I will drag you to ANI. Not only are such things a breach of Wikipedia policy, they are an attack on my standards as a scholar. They are uncalled for and outright false. I have already submitted to others scans of Demaria so they can see that you were wrong above. I am prepared to do such with Bate. You already violated Fringe source guidelines that are part of WP:WEIGHT by moving Demaria down and expanding. This is wrong. You changed Pembroke to Oxford, while ignoring that Pembroke is part of Oxford. Bate constantly refers to it as Pembroke, so this is intellectually dishonest, especially when you claim that I lied about the source. Furthermore, an Oration is NOT NOTABLE, especially when there is nothign on it, and no scholar studied it. Furthermore, you claim it is 90-96, when it is simply not on those page numbers. I will not tolerate someone calling me a liar and blatantly misattributing information to Bate like you just did. So stop it now. This is your only warning from me on this issue. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:38, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I did not say lie; I assert that what you said is not what Bate or DeMaria said, but I think this nothing more than carelessness. Bate tells three stories:
- Sliding in Christ-Church meadow
- The poem Somnium
- The oration.
- We can include any of these, or none; none of them would be to leave the generalization without an example, which would be a shame; I have substituted the first, because I believe it best known. But the text to which you have repeatedly reverted confounds the last two, and is simply inaccurate.
- I did not say lie; I assert that what you said is not what Bate or DeMaria said, but I think this nothing more than carelessness. Bate tells three stories:
- Yesterday your accusation was plagiarism. Today's it's that none of the sources have been checked. These are exactly the kinds of deliberately abrasive remarks that put so many off coming to FAC. I've really had more than enough of this particular one, anyway, so I'm unwatching it. It's way past time somebody made a decision to close this one way or another, and I really couldn't care less which way it closes now, just that it closes. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 12:16, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Errors and omissions" This is wrong. There are no "omissions". There is summarization. Many of the details wishing to be add would not qualify for the page even if it had space that could be put in, as these are not notable details. These are also summarized sections of larger pages. There is also a serious weight issue. Your wanting additional information does not mean that the footnotes do not cite the information that actually exists. These footnotes have been checked by many other reviewers, and your comments above, as with your claims of plagarism, are highly misleading and improper. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:10, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- As for the page numbers: Bate has a long section on Pembroke, which is of course a part of the University of Oxford. Bate does not even begin to discuss Johnson's college friendships until p. 96; now I review the passage, p. 100 would be more accurate as a citation for the assertion that Johnson had many college friends. Therefore, if the entire sentence is to be cited, we require a page range - or two footnotes. Feel free to divide the footnote if you see fit. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:33, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Your comments show a misunderstanding of WP:WEIGHT and Summary Style. You are inserting in wrong information . You also act as if you don't understand what a "clause" is, nor that the first part of the clause doesn't need to be cited, as the citation only deals with the clause starting with the word "but". If you want to change text, go form a consensus. Otherwise, your edits are showing a disrespect to everyone involved, and your constant filling this page with your POV is getting out of hand. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:11, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No, I don't know either of those things; they are not true. A footnote can apply to a single clause - indeed, it can apply to a single word; the only footnote on a sentence, at the end, is, however, presumed to apply to the sentence. No semicolon can prevent the assertion that Johnson made friends at Oxford from needing a source; it is surprising for so unclubbable a man. Since Bate sources it, that should be noted. But feel free, again, to split the footnote into two if your scruples require it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:22, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If you really expect me to cite that Johnson made friends to a source, I'm definitely going to have to take that to Geogre. He would love to see that. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:27, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No, I don't expect you to cite it; it's already cited. However, if it's notable, there's no reason not to cite it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:30, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- As for the page numbers: Bate has a long section on Pembroke, which is of course a part of the University of Oxford. Bate does not even begin to discuss Johnson's college friendships until p. 96; now I review the passage, p. 100 would be more accurate as a citation for the assertion that Johnson had many college friends. Therefore, if the entire sentence is to be cited, we require a page range - or two footnotes. Feel free to divide the footnote if you see fit. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:33, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment A few points based on a quick review. (As for the above, WP:TLDR. My sincere apologies if this has already been mentioned), as it probably has.
1) The text states: Also, Johnson opposed the poetic language of his contemporary Thomas Gray. His greatest complaint was that obscure allusions found in works like Milton's Lycidas were overused; he preferred poetry that could be easily read and understood. While this is true as editors may recall from Johnson's Life of the Poets, he specifically singles out Gray's Elegy as possibly the finest poem in the English language. I cannot remember his precise words, but it is along those lines. Also, I am unsure that I would agree that his greatest problem with Gray was overuse of classical allusion. This can be quickly resolved by an excursus ad fontes.
2) The conflict over Ossian is too slight. This was part of Johnson's larger fight against what we would term today ethno-nationalism and I think more context ought to be provided in terms of how important the disproving of a Gaelic primitive style was in this context. Is this due to perhaps overreliance on Bates as a major source?
- It is in part a response to a Scottish reviewer higher on the page. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:39, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
3) While I appreciate that Vanity & Rasselas & the Rambler have their own articles, I feel that the discussion here is a bit too vapid, even in the context of a summarising review. The strongly moral dimension that Johnson promotes in these writings is almost totally absent; this speaks to Johnson as a person and is not of mere literary interest, so I wonder if a slightly more engaged discussion might be warranted.
4) There are some details of his life which might add some colour to the description of his personality, such as: a) Johnson was basically a drunk, or at least he was a heavy drinker and huge bon-vivant (as editors will recall from Boswell.) b) Every year he solemnly abjured further "self-abuse" which he admitted to indulging in frequently, but which he viewed as highly sinful. c) He liked to roll down hills; d) Johnson had a very pronounced Lichfield accent, as Boswell relates (Boswell, I believe, gives as an example, poonch for punch) and David Garrick was famous for imitating Johnson amongst his circle (Reynolds, Boswell, etc).
5) I think it might be nice to provide a box with some of his most famous witticisms: e.g., dog on hind legs; King is not a subject; ship as prison; high road to England, etc etc etc.... They are enduring for a reason and a good treatment of the subject would not go wrong to include a smattering.
- See {{Wikiquote}}. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:39, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
6) The discussion of Francis Barber comes across as extraordinarily slight, especially given his role as Johnson's quasi-amanuensis, his importance to Johnson's household and his heir!
Generally, a fine article. Eusebeus (talk) 18:45, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Responses. 1) This was based on Greene's view of Johnson. The nuances should probably be described on the Johnson's literary criticism page. Johnson also praised Milton for many things, which doesn't come across in the Bio section, because most of the critics focus on what kind of technique Johnson is looking for rather than broad praise or emotive response (dry, instead of emotional, I guess you could say). 2) The nuances are trying to be worked out for the politics page, so, it would probably be best brought up there. 3) There isn't any room, and we are already over limits. Its hard to cram everything in at once, and the sections are balanced per weight/coverage in sources. 4) Johnson also went stone sober, so, some of the descriptives would need to be carefully discussed, especially because Boswell was only one of many and described Johnson quite differently than others. 5) I think Wikiquote has most of them. 6) Barber isn't that important in most of the sources, so weight leaned against him being given more detail than what exists. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:19, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I now see that there has been some contention already about some of the issues I raise above. Two quick points. First, defending the rather vapid characterisation of Johnson's output by stating simply there isn't any room seems inadequate. Replacing a shitty sentence with a good one doesn't add weight, it adds intelligence. Second, Peter Fryer provides a good source for Francis Barber (in his important work Staying Power) and this can be rounded out with v. 2 of Lyell Reade's Gleanings, which is devoted in its entirety to Francis Barber. I see this was raised above and I am a bit bemused by the tone struck in objecting to adding further consideration. However, overall the article is adequate and I Support its promotion. Eusebeus (talk) 18:07, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry if I may have been a little confusing - the weight issue is based on how much is granted to Barber in Johnson's biographies, as opposed to info granted to Barber in Barber based works. I relied on 8 biographies, a few collections with biographical analysis, and many, many articles to try and find a balance about what biographical figures should be mentioned and where. Barber tends to be ignored, and its hard to put in a lot. It would be nice if Barber's life would be expanded on his page (which is desperately needed). Could you place those two notes on the Barber talk page? Also, if you see any "shitty" lines and know how to replace them with a better, please add a suggestion on the talk page. :) Also, I'm a stickler for page size, because a good 50% of the time I am on a very slow dialup connection, and I just can't load pages that are too long. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:06, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support: Why isn't this an FA already? There has oviously been a great deal of umming and ahhh-ing over this - but the article actually knocks spots off a great many of the FAs already in place.--Tufacave (talk) 15:07, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Unfortunately, that is largely correct - and is FA's major problem; the award is all too often worth the star its paper is printed on. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:13, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The problem, Anderson, is that the longer the nom is held open the stonger the likely-hood that a persistant crank and near troll with an individual hatchet to grind against FAC in general will find it and use verbosity and obtuseness to hold it open in an drawnout but transparent attempt to sink the candidacy despite overwhealming consensus (above). I know that sound unlikely; but it happens. Ceoil sláinte 00:38, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Almost as unlikely as that a FAC reviewer would actually consider the content of an article and check the sources. FA could indeed be a punctuation review, and not care what an article says as long as it looks pretty and has the superficial appearance of plausibility; I would find this perfectly acceptable, if it did not claim more. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:00, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The problem, Anderson, is that the longer the nom is held open the stonger the likely-hood that a persistant crank and near troll with an individual hatchet to grind against FAC in general will find it and use verbosity and obtuseness to hold it open in an drawnout but transparent attempt to sink the candidacy despite overwhealming consensus (above). I know that sound unlikely; but it happens. Ceoil sláinte 00:38, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Unfortunately, that is largely correct - and is FA's major problem; the award is all too often worth the star its paper is printed on. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:13, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- o you are the first editor to consider content and sources in this, what, 5 week review? And pretty? Maybe read the above and consider other openions before your own hubris, if you have that ability. I get the impression if you were pretty you wouldn't be here, being the way you are; riddled in ANI, RFC and other things I'm to dainty to mention in polite company. But You sunk your openion when you moved from the specific to the general: "that is largely correct" and revealed your motive. You are searching for holes, as is your habit, but it doesn't fool me for a second. Ceoil sláinte 03:31, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Awadewit considered content, but did not check the sources actually used; her critique had no need to, really, since she was considering relative weight. She was responded to with a ferocious, and plainly unwarranted, personal attack, now in the decent obscurity of a capped section. I do not see any statement that any reviewer has checked them, until I did (which was largely by chance). If I have missed something, please add a diff.
- o you are the first editor to consider content and sources in this, what, 5 week review? And pretty? Maybe read the above and consider other openions before your own hubris, if you have that ability. I get the impression if you were pretty you wouldn't be here, being the way you are; riddled in ANI, RFC and other things I'm to dainty to mention in polite company. But You sunk your openion when you moved from the specific to the general: "that is largely correct" and revealed your motive. You are searching for holes, as is your habit, but it doesn't fool me for a second. Ceoil sláinte 03:31, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I congratulate you on your telepathy; but your results are backward: I would prefer FA did not so often promote ill-written, ill-researched embarrassments, like this, or Daniel Webster. I would fully support a system that did not flourish on superficial reviews. I am not, usually, so pessismistic as to believe these our best efforts. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:41, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Backwards? When you say "embarrassment" I know you are not a serious person looking for the best article we can work on together; you are just a bitter and angry crank who only wants to shoot down the efforts of others. Best of luck with that; sure it will keep you warm 10-15 years from now. You support nothing and are utterly pessismistic. Nice. Ceoil sláinte
- Pmanderson - I think Ceoil's words were too harsh. However, I think it reflects a level of being insulted, as there are many talented editors that have weighed in on this FAC and also participated in the crafting of this page, and your words can be construed as an offense against these. You don't mean to say that these editors are incompetent, embarrassing, unable to research, and their opinions mean nothing, do you? Ottava Rima (talk) 04:09, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No. The reviewers haven't checked sources, as all too often happens. FAC has improved this article, in the aspects it has considered; by and large, the sourcing hasn't been. The first is FA's justification for existence; the second is why this article should not be promoted. Instead, a substantial proportion of the 245 footnotes should be checked; at that point, we will know how bad it is. When the errors have been found and fixed, it can come back here; but it would be unreasonable to keep this FAC open that long. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:13, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- By "no", do you mean that you are saying that these editors are incompetent, embarrassing, unable to research, and their opinions mean nothing? Ottava Rima (talk) 17:08, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:04, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Then please do not use those words so that there wont be any confusion in the future over it. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:20, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I never said the reviewere were incompetent, embarassing or unable to research; I never said worth nothing; where the confusion may be, I leave as an exercise for the reader. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:36, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Then please do not use those words so that there wont be any confusion in the future over it. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:20, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:04, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- By "no", do you mean that you are saying that these editors are incompetent, embarrassing, unable to research, and their opinions mean nothing? Ottava Rima (talk) 17:08, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No. The reviewers haven't checked sources, as all too often happens. FAC has improved this article, in the aspects it has considered; by and large, the sourcing hasn't been. The first is FA's justification for existence; the second is why this article should not be promoted. Instead, a substantial proportion of the 245 footnotes should be checked; at that point, we will know how bad it is. When the errors have been found and fixed, it can come back here; but it would be unreasonable to keep this FAC open that long. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:13, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Pmanderson - I think Ceoil's words were too harsh. However, I think it reflects a level of being insulted, as there are many talented editors that have weighed in on this FAC and also participated in the crafting of this page, and your words can be construed as an offense against these. You don't mean to say that these editors are incompetent, embarrassing, unable to research, and their opinions mean nothing, do you? Ottava Rima (talk) 04:09, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "we will know how bad it is". Not exactly an open minded statement there, it seems you have not checked the sources, but are decided anyway.. At least we know where you are coming from and that you have already decided where you want to end. Not a very subtle approach for such an experienced editor. Ceoil sláinte 17:00, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The talk page indicates an openion of
2428/2/2. Really, really, this should be closed. Ceoil sláinte 00:59, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support - after addressing the comments, this article satisfies all featured article criteria. It is sourced to solid, reliable sources, it's well written, the images are good, and it meets the other criteria. I do believe the literary criticism section is adequate, with how the section talks about this now (compared with when the page was originally nominated). Further details might belong in a subarticle. --Aude (talk) 03:52, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have not read the discussion above. My comments are below. I will not revisit this page. I will not discuss my comments. I will not "!vote". I will not explain my reasons for not voting.
- "later physicians were able to reach a posthumous diagnosis" -> "posthumously diagnosed".
- This was beautifully worded before FAC, but others have changed it. I reinstated the superior wording that the article had pre-FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:35, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I would prefer Pembroke College to be disambiguated as there are two.
- Malleus? I can't find this? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:43, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm guessing this is referring to: "Samuel Swynfen, a physician and graduate of Pembroke College ...". There's a Pembroke College in both Oxford and Cambridge Universities. I'll try and find out which Swynfen attended. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 18:08, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It was Oxford. Fixed. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 18:29, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "his posthumous diagnosis" -> "the posthumous diagnosis". He didn't diagnose himself after he died.
- Done. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:43, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "in his education" -> "at his studies".
- Done. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:43, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Who is Jorden? He's introduced in the sentence "Jorden left Pembroke", which is unhelpful.
- Good question. Ottava? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:43, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Jorden is hJohnson's college tutor. More detail is on the early life page under college. This was slowly removed out by various users (including myself). Ottava Rima (talk) 18:35, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- In early life it says he developed tics at age 7, then in early career it says between 1729 and 1731. This is a discrepancy, as well as an unnecessary repetition.
- Another example of wording that came in to the FAC medically accurate and correct and has been damaged during FAC. I have restored it to the pre-FAC wording, which should no longer be redundant as the tics of TS are exacerbated by other illnesses. His tics began at the typical age for tic onset (7) and were commented on later in life by many observers, when he also had other medical conditions. I hope I've cleared this up by restoring the wording we came in to FAC with. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:49, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Who is Robert DeMaria? Text should specify an occupation/profession.
- Added Biographer. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:25, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I wish to know why John Taylor refused to read the sermon at Tetty's funeral.
- I believe the world would like to know also. There is speculation but lots of disagreement. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:35, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Reynolds was not Johnson's only friend, but he was close to two others at the time: Bennet Langton and Arthur Murphy." -> "In addition to Reynolds, Johnson was close to Bennet Langton and Arthur Murphy."
- Done. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 18:40, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The plot of Rasselas seems a little too long, unbalanced with the description of the contents of the other works.
- "In 1770 he" and "In 1774 he" (without commas) look odd in close proximity to "In 1771, his" (with a comma).
- I think that's OK as it is. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 18:43, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps William Dodd deserves a little more explanation? I would prefer not to have to click on the link.
- Why is the prayer for the Thrale family quoted in full?
- "stroke that was caused by poor circulation". Surely strokes are always caused by poor circulation? If this is meant to suggest that poor circulation was a chronic condition, then I recommend: "Johnson's poor circulation resulted in a stroke".
- Done, thanks DrK. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:57, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Surgery was performed to relieve Johnson's gout," -> "He had surgery for gout"
- Done. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:59, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Should Islington be linked?
- Probably it should. Linked now. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 18:47, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "although this depiction is appealing.[206] Although Boswell, a Scotsman"; although, although.
- Done. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 18:56, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It's too long, specifically in the health section, which can easily be shortened, especially considering that there is a daughter article duplicating the material.
- The health section has been substantially shortened; I'm not in favor of further cuts because of some of the misunderstanding and objections that were ironed out earlier in the FAC. I think we've now cut it to the most essential evidence and sources, that provide context for his life and behaviors. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:02, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "He had Tourette's syndrome" is insupportable. He was diagnosed with Tourette's syndrome by later writers. The diagnosis seems overplayed, as if the writers are desperate to prove their point by piling on more and more opinion. Compare the definite nature of the article with the more circumspect view of Pat Rogers: "The convulsions that marked his behaviour in adult life may have derived from congenital factors or from ... infant diseases; one theory is that his condition can be diagnosed as Tourette's syndrome." Also, compare with George III of the United Kingdom; yes, OK it is widely assumed that he had porphyria, but it is not certain; it takes six sentences to discuss it.
- Fixed, I hope. Again, came in to FAC cleaner, has deteriorated due to conflicting demands and editing from reviewers. Once again, I restored the wording we came in to FAC with. Contemporary TS researchers are more definitive about Johnson's TS than Rogers, supported by numerous and unanimous sources. Porphyria likely didn't influence George's entire life, work, behavior and bio to the extent TS/OCD did Johnson's; considering the accounts of Boswell, Thrale and others, I think the reduced size of the Health section is about right now. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:14, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The final paragraph appears to descend into trivia, and is a poor way to end the article. DrKiernan (talk) 12:47, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Just commenting on DrKiernan's comments: "I will not revisit this page. I will not discuss my comments. I will not "!vote". I will not explain my reasons for not voting." Then what is the point of making any comments? If you have problems you want addressed, then surely you should pop back and see if they have been? If you don't want to vote, then why bother making a comment in the first place? Your comments completely bamboozled me - and, if this was my FAC, they would also irritate me. This article is far superior to so many current FAs. I really can't undertanad all this delay in promoting it - or even re-starting the nomination again in a couple of weeks.--Tufacave (talk) 14:04, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Please don't badger the commentors; there is nothing wrong with adding helpful comments without a declaration. In fact, DrK has identified several patches of text that have deteriorated because of previous FAC demands and now need repair. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:26, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, a previous FAC reviewer went through and WP:OVERLINKed the article; thanks to DrK and Jbmurray for some delinking. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:35, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Question. Is this FAC being held open to allow time for every single one of wikipedia's 7,989,534 editors to express an opinion on it? The article's quality has started to suffer because of this over-lengthy process (in my opinion), and a quality article is more important than a little bronze star. If this FAC is not closed soon then I for one would be in favour of withdrawing it, for fear of further damage. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 17:52, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The article has deteriorated because of some FAC input, but DrK's comments are helpful. If the rate of deterioration continues, I'll remove my co-nom. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:57, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- DrK's remarks were indeed helpful, and I hope it didn't look as if my comment was directed at his remarks. It was not, although it was prompted by them in the sense that we're now entering a phase of repairing damage caused by earlier changes. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 18:14, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll leave the rest to Ottava and you, but I think another recent deterioration was the change in the Section heading from "Health" to "Posthumous diagnosis"; the Health section heading was introduced after lengthy debate with other reviewers and made sense. Then one FAC reviewer came along and changed it against consensus. The section deals with more than the posthumous diagnosis, and may be leading to comments (such as DrK's above) about the amount of space dedicated to TS; I suggest we go back to the consensus "Health" heading. Will the last one out turn off the lights (remove the sub-section on this page, so as not to muck up the FAC TOC?) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:18, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ottava Rima now insists that the posthumous diagnosis is the sole subject of the section. The title should match the subject; I wouldn't mind achieving this agreement the other way, by broadening the section, if that will make anyone happier. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:41, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Don't misconstrue my words, please. I was pointing out the difference of placement regarding Tourette Syndrome. The biography was acceptable for placing the ideas within his life's biography. It was not acceptable in a place between multiple medical doctors who were diagnosing Johnson later, especially when many of those had to be cut for size. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:13, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If the section is so narrow that the effect of Johnson's health on his career does not fit in it, it should have a narrower title, to indicate its actual contents. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:31, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Pmanderson, please give one good reason why a biographer should not have biographical details in the biography section and instead of placed in the middle of medically trained individuals discussing medical related matters? Ottava Rima (talk) 15:42, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Because this entire article is a biography; it should cover Johnson's health as part of that biography. There is a separate article on Johnson's medical conditions. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:08, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If you read Awadewit's argument, the entire page is not a biography. Only the "biography" sections are biography. The entire page is an encyclopedia page, which includes biography, critical review, legacy, and medical analysis of aspects of his life. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:30, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- But this is a digression; such a section, even if it exists, should have a title which corresponds to its contents. Health does not. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:18, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Health corresponds to everything on Samuel Johnson's health page. Its a summary section and based on consensus. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:30, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll leave the rest to Ottava and you, but I think another recent deterioration was the change in the Section heading from "Health" to "Posthumous diagnosis"; the Health section heading was introduced after lengthy debate with other reviewers and made sense. Then one FAC reviewer came along and changed it against consensus. The section deals with more than the posthumous diagnosis, and may be leading to comments (such as DrK's above) about the amount of space dedicated to TS; I suggest we go back to the consensus "Health" heading. Will the last one out turn off the lights (remove the sub-section on this page, so as not to muck up the FAC TOC?) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:18, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - I said the copy issues were minor and not terribly important, and I meant it. FA doesn't stop editing, they can easily be worked on after promotion, if any remain, and this is easily a credit to FA as it stands. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 14:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- ^ "Microsoft Age of Empires 2: Age of Kings". Retrieved 2008-09-28.