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August 13

Scared, frightened, confused, and unsure what is suppose to happen next

I got word today that my mom plans to divorce my dad. My parents are in there fifty's and the news caught me completely off guard becuase they had until today been happily married for just shy of thirty years. I suspect that this abrupt shift may have come about as a result of my mother's MS, which was diagnosed a few years back. I'm the oldest son from the marriage (22 years old) and would rather not see this marriage end, so I intend to fight it to the best of my abilities (which I reliase may be hard since the divorce will be between mom and dad, not me and mom or me and dad). Is there anything I can do/say that may encourage one or both parties to stay togather? Has anyone else gone through this? Can some one tell me what to expect from all this? Any help - anything at all - would be apreciated. 75.56.179.62 (talk) 01:19, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Reference Desk isn't really suited to giving advice on things like this. There are probably helplines you can ring for advice - what country are you in? The advice I would give is not to try and fight it, that won't work. You need to try and help your parents make the right decision. It may turn out the right decision is to divorce - it may be better than staying in an unhappy marriage. Things happen and people change, even after 30 years, sometimes there isn't anything anyone can do. Your best bet is to talk to them and try and get them to talk to eachother. Get them to discuss what's wrong and consider all the options. Try to avoid taking sides - if they do end up getting divorced, you don't want to end up estranged from one of them. You mention you're the eldest son, which suggests you have siblings - you may be able to support eachother through this difficult time, remember they're going through exactly the same thing as you. Good luck! --Tango (talk) 01:51, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

As Tango says, this isn't the kind of thing the Ref Desk is at its best, but as someone whose parents got divorced, married other people, and got divorced again let me put in my two cents.

A lot of relationships end. You really need to just bite the bullet and accept it -- it sucks, but it's not the end of the world. If your parents want to get a divorce, chances are it's not a whim, but something they've thought about for a good while now. Frankly, they're probably not having a good time with it either, and the last thing they need is you going nuts over this. I think you should take a deep breath and try to look at it like this: it doesn't change anything really important between you and your parents. It doesn't make them love you any less or make you love them any less. It doesn't mean they can't get along in the future (and one factor affecting that is probably going to be how easy or difficult you make it for them), even if they don't share the same address. It doesn't mean that the years they spent together were a lie or devoid of meaning, and it doesn't invalidate any of your happy memories. The success or significance of a relationship isn't determined solely by how or when it ends. (Honestly, I think it's kinda depressing that what is traditionally considered to be a successful relationship ends in someone's death.) If they don't want to be married anymore, even if you could force them to stay together, it wouldn't make them happy. It might preserve a comfortable illusion for you, but, y'know. They're your parents, but they're also human beings with wants and needs and the right to make the decisions they need to make to be happy.

So, what can you do? You can certainly suggest counceling and try to find out what's wrong and see if you can help them out, but the first basic requirement of that is that you're capable of putting your own panic aside and deal with the issue with some degree of objectivity -- and that means accepting, right from the start, that they may have a good reason for doing this. Also, it may simply be none of your business. I mean, it affects you, absolutely, but they're the ones in the marriage. It's a cliché, but all you can do is love 'em and support 'em. There's no reason a divorce should ruin your family, even if it changes it. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 08:40, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I'm sorry you've had such a horrible shock. News like this knocks the bottom out of everything we thought we knew about the way the world works, whether we're five years old or fifty, so it's not surprising you're upset and confused. But two things you say are very revealing and you may need to think about them further. Your parents have been "happily married" for nearly thirty years - you may find this is not as clear-cut as you think, hence the current situation. As a parent, I am aware that my children think they know a great deal about my husband's and my relationship, and I also know exactly how much they haven't the first clue about, and probably never will. And whilst you personally would "rather not see the marriage end" and intend to "fight" the divorce, this isn't your relationship - it's theirs; and you can't force them to be happy together just because it makes you feel better. I'm guessing from your language you're in the USA, so I'm not sure what relationship counselling services are available to your parents, or to you and your siblings, but all I can suggest from my own experience with two messy family divorces is the following:

(1) Keep talking and don't take sides. Make sure your parents both know that they will not lose you because of this. If you are frightened by the prospect of such a major change after all these years, think how they must feel! (2) Try to help your family reach a new stable situation as soon as possible, be it together or apart. The longer the uncertainty and instability last, the more frightened and unhappy everyone will be, and the more chance there is of conflict. 3) Remember that this is not the end of the world. Things will probably be different at the other end of this, but they can still be stable and even happy in a new way, if everyone does their best to help make them so. Your family may be changed by this, but it does not have to be broken.

Best wishes to you and your family. I hope things work out. Karenjc 09:21, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Try and see it from their point of view. Getting divorced at 50, especially after 30 years of marriage, is not a decision that they will make lightly. Your mom must have some very strong reasons to be making such a drastic change—maybe she wants to talk about it. In any event, it is likely that one or both of them is/are deeply unhappy and they have decided that this is the only way to rectify it. Your parents are people too, with needs and feelings like the rest of us. This is going to be harder on them than it will be on you. My best advice is for you to try and understand why they are doing this. In the process you might come to appreciate your parents in a whole new light, or at least be convinced that despite the pain it is ultimately the right decision. Plasticup ^T/C 12:17, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

If it makes you feel any better, my parents did the same thing at about the same time (and it was my mother who instigated it, similarly). I was rather sullen about it for maybe half a year, and not the most pleasant person to be around, but after that I came to accept it, and in the end I think it was for the better for them. My mother has since moved on with other things in her life, my father recently remarried and is totally happy (with his frankly better-matched new wife).

There is no purpose in "fighting it". It will only cause you more pain in the long run, and could run a schism between you and one of your parents that is unnecessary. Better to try and make sense of it from your mother's point of view, and to help your father cope with it. He'll rebound.

In my case, I was aided in the fact that I no longer lived at home. My younger sister was still in high school, though, and she suffered more from the instability of the situation. Now that she's long out of the house (has since graduated from college), she's fine with it too.

Try not to take it personally. Try to see their side of things. Try not to take sides. Try not to create any lasting damage between you and either of your parents. Over time, you won't feel hurt or shocked by it anymore. It has been maybe six years since my parents broke up, and frankly, it's just not an issue for me anymore. In my case, both of my parents have benefited from their decision in the long term. My father is much happier now than he was when he was married to my mother, because her unhappiness trickled down in many ways in their day-to-day lives in a way that is only visible after the fact. My mother is much happier being on her own—she's gone off and started to live the life she always dreamed she would want to live. You need to start thinking of your parents not so much as "Mom and Dad", as a symbolic entity that serves as the anchor for what you know of "the Family", but as two adult human beings, two people not very different from yourself.

Here's my only real advice: talk to someone about it, someone you trust. I made the mistake of holding it in and really not telling anybody about it for maybe a year or so. I justified this to myself by saying that it was my business and no one else's, and it made me very upset to talk about it. But in retrospect I see this didn't help me any—that only by talking to people about it was I able to make sense of it, and to come to accept it for what it was and to understand what it wasn't. Don't hold it in—get it out there. Everything looks scarier in the dark—once it's in the light you'll be better able to evaluate it. I imagine posting this on here is one step in that, but probably a fairly early one. Keep at it. You'll make it. They'll make it. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 16:49, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Chances are they (individually or severally) would not have much success telling you who to have or not have a relationship with. Likewise you cannot have much success telling them who to love. Sometimes when people divorce it is a shock to one of them. Other times it is just a recognition of something that has already happened. They will each still be your parent. Try to work through this with them and maintain a relationship with each. Best wishes. Edison (talk) 04:42, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

A good place to discuss serious issues is on xkcd's Dear SB - http://forums.xkcd.com/viewforum.php?f=48 Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 09:10, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

These things are rarely sudden decisions. Considering your age - it's perfectly possible that your parents have been staying together through an increasingly difficult relationship for many years in order not to upset you...going through the education system...getting your first job, etc. Perhaps they decided that once you hit that magical 21 years old that they could finally do what they'd wanted to do years ago. I honestly don't think you should interfere. The natural first reaction is to try to keep them together - but they don't WANT to be kept together - if they did, they wouldn't be doing this. Best to assure them both that you'll support whatever they decide - and (most important) that neither of them are going to "lose" you. This is going to be tough on both of them. Interfering can't possibly end well and taking sides would be an utter disaster. By the time people get around to using "the D word" - it's all over. SteveBaker (talk) 01:24, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

What is this called?

What is the name of the disorder where is person pulls out their hair and then consumes it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.101.5.76 (talk) 01:38, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Trichophagia - Eron^Talk 01:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Then there's pica, which is eating of non-food items, which includes trichophagia. StuRat (talk) 16:14, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

id call it gross —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.188.139.77 (talk) 02:00, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Why? Cats do it all the time. But then they puke up the fur ball--79.76.229.54 (talk) 19:54, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The frequency of occurrence of a phenomenon is not related to its grossitude. -- JackofOz (talk) 01:31, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

For example. - Eron^Talk 13:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

What's with the back door at Borders?

I know other places have a back door, but for some reason Borders stands out the most. By stand out, I mean stick out like a sore thumb by trying too hard not to draw attention. Like the certain types of quiet kids that always get noticed despite thier silence, it screams for attention. This door is not open to the public. It has no handle on the outside and always leads to a grassy area by the highway. It isn't an emergency exit, there's no sign above it, and nobody seems to use it, or look at it! It's the epitimy of a "mystery door" (Or perhaps a magic one, ha ha?...) It's driving me crazy! Would someone who works at Borders please explain this before I snap and push the damn thing open! The last thing I need is a disorderly conduct charge. --Dr. Carefree (talk) 03:46, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. Is it a green door? - Eron^Talk 04:52, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Which, of course, begs the question: What's Behind the Green Door? Surely the answer can't be as mundane as "the bookstore", although "the outside world" at least offers more possibilities.

Atlant (talk) 22:34, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Does it provide access to L-space? DuncanHill (talk) 22:37, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps it is a door staff use for leaving after the store closes? Presumably it is an emergency exit-door? Or perhaps the door is used for ushering in 'celebs' when they come to do book signings? I've literally no idea why but hey-ho it's fun to speculate. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 07:40, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

What Borders are you talking about? My local Borders in Cambridge has three doors, all open to the public. Algebraist 10:39, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The rear doors I have seen in large bookstores are for the unloading of product from trucks, or sometimes for the entry and exit of employees, especially after the store closes. From your description, it isn't clear whether you are discussing a specific Borders, or all of them; for example, none of the Borders stores in my city connect to a 'grassy area by the highway,' as far as I recall. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 10:41, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I used to work at a Barnes and Nobles and the back door there leads into the Receiving department, which is just a big room where you open boxes, scan in the inventory, and set it up for distribution around the store for the next morning. You also handle other mail-related functions back there (like sending books back to the publisher, or stripping the covers off of books and sending those back). It's an incredibly uninteresting area of the bookstore (and a pretty dull job, incidentally—it's totally apt that if you work back there you are officially known as "a Receiver", as you "take it" from the corporation all day long). I imagine Borders is probably pretty similar in that respect. For the record, we never used the back door for entry and exit of employees at my Barnes and Noble (except for lunch breaks, mid-day comings and goings, etc.)—I don't think you could turn on/off the alarm from there? We always went out the front door. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 15:24, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

hi

want to know about love where i find it in wikipedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.225.3.76 (talk) 07:37, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Love. Karenjc 08:27, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

You might find some love and affection at WP:MENTOR. I have already found all the love I need. I suggest avoiding WP:AfD, WP:DR, WP:RfC, and WP:RFA—no love there. Plasticup ^T/C 12:06, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Check out WikiLove and Wikipedia:No terms of endearment too. ---Sluzzelin talk 12:31, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Human behaviour

What is the name of subject relating the human's natural activities as behaviour —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.46.126.117 (talk) 08:15, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

anthropology and cultural anthropology I think are what you are after. You would also be interested in psychology and sociology 194.221.133.226 (talk) 08:58, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

If by "natural activities" you mean "activities universally done by humans regardless of culture and time" then you may want to check out the book Human Universals by anthropologist Donald Brown. It is an attempt to catalog traits that are universal to all human societies. Sub-disciplines that attempt to determine which activities are universal (and their possible adaptive value or reason for evolving) include: Evolutionary Psychology, Sociobiology (also including Sociology more generally), all of Anthropology, and Cross-cultural psychology.--droptone (talk) 12:33, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

There is also ethology, the scientific study of animal behavior. Humans are animals, too! — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 14:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Stationery code in NZ?

What is the name of the naming system used in New Zealand to label different exercise books and paper pads? For example 14B8 is 7mm lined A4 loose leaf refill; 3B1 is a little 7mm lined note book; 1B5 is 7mm lined soft-cover exercise book and 1J5 is a 5mm grid soft-cover exercise book. They seem to be used only in NZ and I think it's quite a curiosity having a standard on something often neglected. --antilived^{T | C | G} 09:47, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Official name of the system? NZS 8132:1984! It's a New Zealand Standard. As you note, it's designed to make identification of stationery easy. Gwinva (talk) 00:08, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

See New Zealand standard for school stationery -- SGBailey (talk) 07:49, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

WHAAOE! --antilived^{T | C | G} 08:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I was kicking myself that I never thought to look within WP for the answer, but I see the article is new. Yet again the Ref Desk comes to the rescue of WP! Gwinva (talk) 22:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Which proves that anyone who says that we've written so many articles that we've exhausted all possible notable topics doesn't have any idea what they're talking about. They qualify for the first annual Charles H. Duell Medal. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:29, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Minor injuries

Whenever there is an accident in the news you always hear that so many people suffered only "minor injuries". What counts as a minor injury? Stubbing your toe? Breaking your arm? How minor does an injury have to be to get a mention? --124.254.77.148 (talk) 10:09, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I found a hospital information page here that lists some minor injuries: things that you might want treatment for, but which aren't life-threatening, like cuts and sprains. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 10:20, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I suggest that there's also an implication that it will get better reasonably soon. If you lose the use of a body part, for example, that's not minor. I'd guess fractures would be on the border between minor and not-minor, depending on who's counting. --Anonymous, 03:35 UTC, August 14, 2008.

And which bit is broken!86.197.20.168 (talk) 15:36, 14 August 2008 (UTC)DT

troll alternatives

What other sites could be recomended, that are similar to wiki ref desk, where numerous people ask numerous strange, wierd, and interesting questions. A place where one can be sent to troll rather than here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 16:33, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Almost any internet forum? --98.217.8.46 (talk) 17:05, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

4chan? — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 17:18, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Yahoo Answers. Corvus cornix_talk 18:24, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

And don't forget The National Association of Gasbags. — OtherDave (talk) 22:09, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Yahoo answers would be quite appropriate. It's already full of genuine idiots; a troll would feel at home. 24.76.161.28 (talk) 07:39, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Speaking from experience, I can tell you that it is the fact that the Reference Desk takes itself so seriously which makes it a prime target for trolling. What fun would trolling yahoo answers be, when it is already full of sililar people? Also, I often find myself actually learning something through Wikipedia, which I guess is an added bonus. 212.85.21.254 (talk) 12:21, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah you got to be pretty clever to get a troll post to bring more than ten replies over about 5 days 8-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.203.9 (talk) 02:28, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

management

How is management becomes a process? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.54.67.78 (talk) 17:18, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The article management process has many links to proceed through. Julia Rossi (talk) 00:38, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Scrabble dictionaries

Are there words in the TWL dictionary that aren't in the SOWPODS dictionary? I see that the latter is significantly larger, but even if there's one or two, I'd like to know. Cheers, Angus Lepper^{(T, C, D)} 17:31, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

In a related question, are there any large word lists (not necessarily used for Scrabble) other than these two? I'm trying to build a reasonably comprehensive dictionary for an anagram-finder. Angus Lepper^{(T, C, D)} 17:39, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I checked using this SOWPODS dict and this TWL '06 dict, and the answer is: no, ALL TWL words (178690) seem to be in the SOWPODS list (267750 words). -- Aeluwas (talk) 18:42, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

See http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Frequency_lists -- SGBailey (talk) 20:11, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The enable2k word list (http://personal.riverusers.com/~thegrendel/software.html) contains 818 words that are missing from TWL06 (including several "ANTI*" and "UN*" words like antibaryon, anticapitalists, antilogarithmic, unabbreviated, unescorted, and unforgiven; some stuff that really doesn't seem that obscure like breadsticks, carsickness, descramble, drownings, overstrike, and stirringly; and some that are probably better spelled with a hyphen or a space or a capital letter like bald-headed, belly button, Neanderthal, and Southerner).

Of those 818, 462 are also missing from sowpods, including a bunch of pluralized "ANTI*" and "NON*" words like antisubversives and nonexplosives; the surprising (how did this not get into sowpods?) babysitter; breadstick (singular) although breadsticks (plural) is in sowpods; many more examples of questionable word construction, unhyphenation, and uncapitalization like beautifuler, color-blind, and Crayola; and even some short words that could be useful on the board like assed, clit, and dickys.

These counts don't include the words of more than 15 letters found in enable2k (4262 of them), which aren't in the Scrabble lists because they wouldn't fit on the board. There are other words that can't ever be played in Scrabble, like pizzazz. There's only 1 Z and 2 blanks so a word with 4 Z's is unplayable, but it's in TWL06 and sowpods for some reason, so that class of words apparently doesn't contribute to the differences between enable2k and TWL06/sowpods.

P.S. Aeluwas's word counts were off by one. TWL06 has 178691 words and sowpods has 267751. Those files have no line ending on their final lines, so if you wc -l'ed them you missed the last word. --tcsetattr (talk / contribs) 01:27, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Shouting out when in extreme pain

Why does this seem to help some people? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.229.54 (talk) 19:52, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Don't know exactly how it's helpful, but it's an involuntary reflex when pain comes by surprise or becomes intolerable. Maybe at a primal level it serves to bring attention to the need for help; or as an emotional release in challenging situations to pre-empt pain (eg in martial arts sports). Julia Rossi (talk) 00:43, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Personally, screaming at the top of my lungs whilst dancing around waving my thumb that just got smashed with a hammer helps distract me from the searing pain. But I suppose that violates WP:OR, doesn't it? ;) --Alinnisawest(talk) 01:16, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Get's the crybabies sympathy. Edison (talk) 04:36, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

It's only WP:OR if you do it to yourself - if I hit you with the hammer and carefully document what happens as a result in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, then it's OK for you to write about it. I have a range of hammer sizes and weights here - we're going to need graph paper and a slide-rule. When are you free? SteveBaker (talk) 00:52, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Youre also going to need a calibrated sound level meter to record the volume of the WAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!! when you hit the thumb (or other body part) with varying (calibrated) impulses. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.203.9 (talk) 01:04, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Bicycles

How the hell do we ride them without damaging our (esp men) genital parts . ie what part of our bodies actually support our weight?. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.229.54 (talk) 23:45, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

This part. - Eron^Talk 00:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

A cutaway racing saddle does not support most of the buttoxks, but there seems to be a pelvic bones around there that the saddle slices between. However i feel there is still a lot of (unhealthy) pressure on the crotch.--79.76.203.9 (talk) 16:51, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Here's my cheeky answer: They make a seat that's split in two, with room in between for your kibbles 'n bits. However, I don't know whether this seat is actually effective or just a bum steer. StuRat (talk) 00:05, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

So it's just a haunch? OtherDave (talk) 01:54, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Watching the road race (Olympics) and wondering why the seat is so small and uncomfortable looking. It must be hell on the coccyx. Is there a reason for this? Julia Rossi (talk) 00:32, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I dont think the mens coccyxs(?) touch the saddle as they are always bending forward. But it could be hell on the cocks and balls! Hence the original Q —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.203.9 (talk) 16:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Of course, you must know that Wikipedia no doubt has an article on this. See Bicycle saddle, esp. Bicycle_saddle#Crotch_pressure. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 00:50, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

August 14

Swimming World Records

Why are swimming world records broken quite fequently, whereas track and field world records can stand for more than a decade without being broken. Quite a few swimming world records have been broken at the Olympics so far, wheras in the athletics there might be 1 at most world records broken. Why is this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.35.93 (talk) 00:39, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Likely because of advances in both swim gear and pools- for example, many people are attributing the success of Michael Phelps to the design of the swimming pool (it's both deeper and wider than an ordinary one, thus creating less turbulence) and his swimsuit (or whatever they call it professionally) which has a new design to lessen drag. But in above-ground sports, slight changes in equipment don't affect the athletes as much- for example, a new brand of silk shorts is not going to help basketball players any! --Alinnisawest(talk) 01:11, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Note that Phelps is only wearing the bottom half of the new suit, he isn't wearing the top part. Corvus cornix_talk 01:23, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Swim training and even swimming technique are changing radically because (as a competitive sport) it is comparatively new. Butterfly isn't even 100 years old. Compare that to running and throwing, which have been around longer than our species. Plasticup ^T/C 01:40, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

In fact, they say that butterfly will someday be faster than freestyle. Sounds crazy, but look at the trends in the world records over time... Plasticup ^T/C 01:42, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Just a nit: you mean it will be faster than crawl (front crawl, Australian crawl, American crawl, whichever you like). Freestyle means that you are free to pick any style, except when it's a leg of an individual medley a medley. --Trovatore (talk) 04:33, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Not really a "nit"--it's a very important and interesting point. Should butterfly become reliably as fast as crawlstroke (by any name), freestyle races might become a sight to see--some athletes relying on one stroke and some on the other. Crawl would remain a staple of the last leg of the medley race, but pure freestyle races might become "free" in a sense that they haven't been in decades. User:Jwrosenzweig as 71.112.40.194 (talk) 06:58, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, this has happened in the past. Because backstroke and front-crawl use different muscles, some distance swimmers liked to alternate between to two stokes so as to rest certain muscle groups within the race. The 1500-freesytle world record was once broken by a man alternating between 100m of front crawl and 100m of backstroke. I haven't see this in modern times, but it is technically possible. Plasticup ^T/C 12:27, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The pool itself is being talked about as a contributing factor, it's depth and tighter climate control. [1] Plus it's indoors which helps. In Athens they were competing in an outdoor pool. RxS (talk) 04:42, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

If the changing design of the pools is contributing measurably to the swimmers' ability to swim faster and faster, how can they meanigfully compare records from today against those of, say, 50 years ago? It seems to me that if today's swimmers had the pools from 50 years ago to swim in, all other factors being equal, they'd be swimming more slowly. Conversely, if the swimmers from 50 years ago had today's pools to swim in, they would have swum faster than they did. Aren't these record comparisons somewhat fundamentally flawed? -- JackofOz (talk) 09:07, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Wanna talk about track shoes? Plasticup ^T/C 12:27, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Wait, Plasticup, they think that the butterfly will be faster than freestyle because of the trends of changes in world records? That seems like a questionable conclusion. The rates of change in newer events will be faster than the rates of change of older events. This can be explained by the fact that the best techniques for old events have been determined and there is very little room for improvement due to physical constraints. This is akin to why it is easier to go from a 7min mile to a 6min mile than from a 5min mile to a 4min mile. There are boundaries on human achievement due to physical constraints. This explanation seems, at least at first glance, to be correct given that our article on the Butterfly stroke states that it is "the newest swimming style swum in competition". (Also) this explanation would also work for why rates of change in women's events are quicker than rates of change in men's events. Even in the West where we pride ourselves on being progressive in respect to women's issues, we've only been accepting of women athletes for the past ~50 years compared to the long history of love for men's competition.

If you want to argue that the butterfly events will have faster times than the freestyle events, then you'll need to appeal to some sort of analysis of the mechanical aspects of the strokes involved and not the rates of change in achievement. A good book which dicusses these sorts of issues is Full House: The Spread of Excellence from Plato to Darwin (US title) by Stephen Jay Gould.--droptone (talk) 12:29, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. Why spoil a perfectly good empirical analysis with all that subjective "analysis of the mechanical aspects"? You are bound to mess it up. Plasticup ^T/C 14:15, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

There is no reason that butterfly events should ever have faster times than freestyle events — because if it were an advantage to swim fly in the freestyle events, the swimmers would do so, as they are perfectly within their rights to do. I suppose there could be an adjustment period before fly specialists realized they ought to enter the free events, though. --Trovatore (talk) 04:42, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm with Droptone and Trovatore on this one. To get the torso out of the water for the recovery the swimmers need to dig their legs into the water to a degree that goes beyond a forward thrusting motion and actually brakes them quite a bit. To get faster they'd have to modify the stroke by somehow either angling their entire body downward a bit during the stroke so they can turn up in more of a fluid motion or do some kind of double kick during the recovery phase. My guess is that they've both been tried and the first one probably doesn't work because they would need to get all of the force to get out of the water from their arms and the second probably doesn't work because and forward momentum producing motion from the legs would cause the body to straighten out before the arms are ready. So, unless someone comes up with something brilliant, I don't think the butterfly will surpass the crawl. -LambaJan (talk) 16:16, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I think you missed my point. Freestyle is not a style. It's an event in which you are free to choose your style (hence the name, free style).

The style most people currently choose is front crawl. But if swimmers got to the point that they could swim butterfly faster than they could swim front crawl, then they would choose that instead in freestyle events, and therefore the times in the freestyle events would still be as fast as in fly events; it's just that the winners of the free events would be swimming fly rather than crawl. --Trovatore (talk) 19:07, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

It's funny, I knew someone made that point. I should keep better track of who says what. Sorry for misrepresenting you. -LambaJan (talk) 15:51, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

On a related note, is there a possibility that the crawl might become an event in its own right if/when it loses its place in the freestyle events? --Random832 (contribs) 17:50, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

A quick one - Estonian pronounciation of the female given name, "Katrin"

Ah, I feel kind of foolish but I'm getting conflicting answers on the internet. Kat-rin [2]? Kaht-reen [as in Katrina] [3]? I'm sure both are used, I'm just not sure which one (or another?) is used in Estonia. Thanks! Kinou (talk) 02:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

This question is better suited for the language help desk so I moved it to there.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 20:32, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Olympic baseball pitching: bounce off ground?

In an Olympic baseball game shown today, the Korean pitcher appeared to be bouncing the ball off the ground so that it was rising as it crossed the plate. He was doing all right against the American minor league players who constitute the U.S Olympic baseball team, since Korea won. If this is a useful technique, why is it nerver done in amateur or professional baseball in the U.S.? Because it looks too much like Cricket? Bouncing off the ground is bound to lower the speed of the ball and give the batter far more time to assess the pitch and react. Edison (talk) 02:20, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

For Major League Baseball at least, rule 2.00 states (in part): "If the pitch touches the ground and bounces through the strike zone it is a “ball.” anonymous6494 02:41, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

That explains why they never do it in major league baseball! Another departure of olympic baseball from how it is normally played. Still, it is interesting that it can be so effective a technique to place the ball where the batter does not expect it. Are Korean pitchers skilled at this technique from playing cricket? Seems unlikely. Edison (talk) 04:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

By striking the ground with the ball and imparting spin on the ball the pitcher, like a cricket bowler, is able to vary the angle at which the ball leaves the ground and consequently reduce the amount of time the player has to react to a number of variables, not only sideways movement but vertical angle as well. Richard Avery (talk) 07:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Are we sure that this is actually a rule in Olympic baseball? Rmhermen (talk) 18:52, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm almost positive it isn't. The IBAF rules say that they use the Official Baseball Rules, 2008 edition. I read through the rulebook on the IBAF site and they don't seem to offer any exemptions or alterations to the rules regarding pitching. Unless someone can provide a link to an assertion of this, I'd say--sorry, Edison--that either Edison didn't see what he thought he saw, or that the U.S. players were inexplicably swinging at pitches that had bounced. It is possible, of course, to miss a bounced pitch (which would be a strike) or to hit it to a fielder and be out...in which case the Korean pitcher would seem to be "doing all right". But as the bounced pitch is, by definition of the rules, wild and a ball, why would the batters swing at them unless by mistake? If there's video of the game you saw, Edison, I'd be interested to see it. User:Jwrosenzweig editing as 71.231.197.110 (talk) 19:37, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The alternative would be that the pitcher was throwing a ball which dropped and then rose, also unlikely. I just know what I saw and marvelled at. Edison (talk) 00:41, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Blood iron test

I gave blood today and first they checked the iron level- they put a drop of a blood in some kind of greenish solution and then watched it for a second before deciding it was fine. What did they put it in and how does it tell them the iron level? 70.162.28.222 (talk) 03:12, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

This is the "CuSO4 Gravimetric Method" (can't find an article on it here). Basically, the blood is dropped into some Copper sulphate and the higher the haemoglobin in the cells, the quicker the blood drop sinks (haemoglobin is heavy). It provides a quick and easy method to detect anaemia, and is accurate enough to screen out those who need to keep all the iron they have!. Fribbler (talk) 13:39, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Is this possible?

From the Conservapedia Commandments:

Posting of obscenity here is punishable by up to 10 years in jail under 18 USC § 1470. Vandalism is punishable up to 10 years in jail per 18 USC § 1030. Harassment is punishable by 2 years in jail per 47 USC § 223. The IP addresses of vandals will be reported to authorities. That includes your employer and your local prosecutor.

How exactly can you go to jail for posting an "obscenity" on that site? I never knew it was illegal. Same for vandalism: how in the world can someone go to jail for ten years for vandalizing an internet page? Reporting the IP addresses of vandals so they can go to jail seems pointless in the first place, right? They do change all the time. I hope someone can help me with my curiosity :) CL — 08:23, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

You can report the IP with a timestamp to the ISP and they CAN see who's assigned to that IP at that time but wow that would massively violate the freedom of speech. Welcome to the oppressive world Comrade America. --antilived^{T | C | G} 08:29, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

That is what I thought in the first place. How can a conservative site make such claims when it violates what they base their ideals on: the first amendment. Ten years for vandalism, I'd like to see the uproar on that - CL — 08:32, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

You're surprised that conservatives are hypocrites? DuncanHill (talk) 11:28, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The 1st amendment has nothing whatsoever to do with expressing yourself on Conservapedia, or Wikipedia for that matter. Neither of those are the government, and neither has an obligation to provide you with a forum. -- Coneslayer (talk) 13:05, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, Anyone actually checked what 18 USC S 1470 actually says? It wouldn't surprise me if sites were careful. Wikipedia of course doesn't want 'obscenity' other, but tends to have a less legalistic approach to dealing with violaters. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 11:26, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

"Whoever, using the mail or any facility or means of interstate or foreign commerce, knowingly transfers obscene matter to another individual who has not attained the age of 16 years, knowing that such other individual has not attained the age of 16 years, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both." Obscenity doesn't mean swear words, of course, it means this. -- BenRG (talk) 11:41, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

These days, American civil rights fall under the perview of the liberal agenda. I'd have thought that defending a 230 year old document would be considered "conservative", but hey. Plasticup ^T/C 12:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Conservapedia is a bunch of raving maniacs. Why would you worry about their bogus legal notices? They've already had problems with trying to report purported vandals to the FBI, and the FBI told them to go shove it because they were wasting their time. Don't confuse Conservapedia with "conservatives" in general. It's a small, select group of idiots. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 14:03, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed with the above. The 'commandment' is simply incorrect, like so much else on Conservapedia.

Having said that, do you have a link to "They've already had problems with trying to report purported vandals to the FBI"? DJ Clayworth (talk) 21:03, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah [4], most helpful. DJ Clayworth (talk) 21:22, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that diff. What whackjobs. CL — 23:33, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I note that if you rearrange the letters of "Conservapieia," they also spell "Cadavers opine." Edison (talk) 00:38, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

No they don't :) *cough* swap your second I for a D :) Lemon martini (talk) 00:04, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, aas providence, aced pervasion, overpaid acnes, paced aversion, avoidance reps, paradise coven , variance dopes, aspic endeavor, parade novices and vane picadores:-)--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 00:52, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Interestingly the whole incident appears to have been a huge embarrassment to the Conservapedia whackjobs. If you look at the bottom of the article DJ Clayworth kindly linked to, it gives an extensive list of all the users blocked in order to cover up the fiasco. One user was blocked for “mentioning the FBI.” lol. Wikipedia meets Nineteen Eighty-Four. --S.dedalus (talk) 06:53, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

See obscenity. Obscenity is not considered "speech" under the First Amendment. However, the bar for what constitutes obscenity is quite high. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 11:46, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Disturbance

I am a 20yr old guy studying engineering in a hopeless college in India.I get pretty disturbed when I realise that a girl has had a crush on me.It looks cheap to worry about it,even to me.I get a high whenever a girl calls me handsome.I behave as if I have conquered the whole world.I am a dud in regular academics though I have a scientific bent of mind.I am a loser who has a hopeless future yet I still think I am someone great.I realised lately that I am just a daydreamer who does'nt has a concrete ambition.I think I am suffering from a mental paralysis.I know everything yet still do nothing.Please help me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.235.49.2 (talk) 09:07, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The reference desk is not a place for medical diagnosis -- especially on the miscellaneous page. Since many of the things you describe are related to your own thoughts and feelings, you might consult a mental health professional such as a psychologist or psychiatrist. OtherDave (talk) 10:50, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Your topic/question seems strangely familiar --I've seen it's like on the desks before, but don't have the reference. Julia Rossi (talk) 10:09, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Railway track geometry

In the field of railway permenant way, are there any standards used in respect of the geometry of track layouts? (I.E is there a fixed set of switch radii)?

Major railroads since the 19th century published standards for turnouts, etc based on rail weight, type of switch etc. There were probably local railroads in bygone days where the geometry was determined by the engineer at the time of the installation. Edison (talk) 00:31, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Theyc ertainly used to have, and I think they'd be silly if they didn't still have - clearance distances between tracks and maximum curvatures seem like very important details to, erm, keep track of. I know I've seen such standardsfor the UK annotated in an old book that my dad owned (it may still be in my back room somewhere among his hundreds of railway books), but I'm afraid I've not found a comprehensive online or readily available source for them. It's likely that different countries would have different regulations, depending on such details as standard carriage size and track gauge - it would be different in Canada to India to the UK.

The most comprehensive document I've found online is an old standard for the UK (a guess that your use of the term "Railway" is that that might be a closer mark than a US document). It's in pdf form, downloadable here. Grutness...wha? 00:35, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Distance between tracks, at least, seems like it would logically be part of the structure gauge. --Random832 (contribs) 17:59, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I remember an example problem from my high school math class that said (by way of explanation of the problem setup) that tracks have to enter and exit curves gradually (i.e. continuously changing radius of curvature rather than a straight segment joined to a circular segment) but that might have been made up for the math book rather than actually being true. --Random832 (contribs) 17:53, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Vatican

In the Vatican, the Secret Vatican Archives can only be viewed if one already knows exactly which document you want to see, and can prove that you have the relative qualifications to see it. Further more an index in part or in whole is forbidden, so surely there are documents in there that are important to history and humanity, that no one knows about, nor ever will, and they will never be seen, surely this is wrong? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 12:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

So all documentation that could be potentially import to history/humanity has to be publically accesible? Why? The wrongness (or rightness) of this situation is entirely down to individual perpsective on privacy and issues of public-interest. There isn't a definitive answer. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 12:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The answer to "why" would be so we can learn about history and the world, I should think... but really, I can't tell you definitively if it's "right" or "wrong". No one here can. It's a matter of personal perspective. --Alinnisawest(talk) 13:55, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Knowing that there is some unreachable knowledge stored there adds some well-needed mystery to the world. I think that this is the right thing to do. Plasticup ^T/C 14:12, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, if there weren't 'secret Vatican archives' we would never have got books like The Da Vinci Code. DJ Clayworth (talk) 17:51, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Meh, they'll open it all up eventually, and index and archive it all properly. But who knows, most of it could be useless crap! (Well, probably not.) Adam Bishop (talk) 17:08, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

You have to admire the low-key humor of putting your Secret Archives on the internet. Also, the Catholic Church has its own priorities and does things in its own time; they're even planning to put up a statue of Galileo. Digitizing their documents could take a while. The Codex Sinaiticus project, which involved digitizing some 700 pages of a bible dating from the time of Constantine, was projected to cost £680,000 and take four years. -- OtherDave (talk) 21:40, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Note that, according to our article, it is Publication of the indexes that is forbidden, not the actual creation of such. I assume (but cannot prove) that the official librarians have a set of (probably handwritten) indexes, reserved for their exclusive use. With 52 miles of shelving, there has to be some sort of master index, such that when you go to the librarian and say "I want the Codex Tiberius (1745)" they have some way of finding it. I also imagine that the Pope and Master Librarian has special dispensation to say something along the lines of "Bring me everything about St. Sebastian", without having to know the exact titles. It's just the rest of the world that has to follow the rules.-- 128.104.112.147 (talk) 21:55, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Important to historians, surely, but humanity? This is just ancient history. Who would be affected by the revelation that Charlemagne was gay or that Jeanne d'Arc was the mother of three or that Torquemada was Jewish? Fabulously entertaining but not important. Saintrain (talk) 01:01, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

business studies

time is said to be the most vital resources in management discuss[eddie] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.219.210.168 (talk) 14:10, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Have you read our articles management and time management? They may be of help to you. DuncanHill (talk) 14:33, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Can Canadian Healthcare be used in the U.S.?

An individual that is a Canadian citizen plans to live with relatives in the U.S. for approximately 6 months. She does not plan to become a U.S. citizen. Would she be able to use her Canadian Healthcare in the U.S.? Would she need to get a "rider” of some type through the Canadian health insurance system that allows her to seek services here in the U.S.? I appreciate any information you can give me. Thank you! Elephantandgiraffe (talk) 14:11, 14 August 2008 (UTC)giraffe

She should contact her provincial health provider (OHIP, whatever); they will be able to tell her. My general understanding is that yes, provincial programs continue to cover residents for 90 days after leaving the province. The next 90 days would be up to her, and (if memory serves) she will have to re-establish residency for 90 days upon return before resumption of benefits. That's pulled out of some very hazy areas of memory, though. She really should contact her provincial health provider. Prince of Canada ^{t | c} 14:18, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

(ec) The rules vary somewhat from province to province in Canada, as health care is a provincial rather than a federal responsibility. In general, however, Canadians travelling abroad will almost certain want to purchase private health insurance, as their provincial health plans will provide very limited out-of-country coverage. For Ontario – Canada's most populous province – their Ministry of Health provides the following advice (their emphasis):

When I travel outside of Canada will OHIP pay the same medical expenses that are covered in Ontario?

No. If you are a resident of Ontario and you are insured under OHIP, you are entitled to very limited funding for a limited range of medical services when you are travelling outside of Canada. For this reason, you are strongly advised to purchase additional health insurance every time you leave Canada. [5]

That link contains a number of other frequently asked questions as well. (For reference, inpatient services are only reimbursed up to $200–$400 per day, far below what you're likely to actually pay at any U.S. hospital.) Similar guidance likely applies to residents of other provinces. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:30, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

What are the rules about returning to Canada to use health care? If you have moved to the States permanently, can you return to Canada and use Canadian healthcare if you get sick? TastyCakes (talk) 14:38, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Again, it varies province by province but there is usally a waiting period - typically ninety days - before you are covered unde the province's health care plan. It is also necessary to establish residence in the province. This even applies for moves within Canada - I am moving to British Columbia from Ontario, and I will not be covered under BC's plan for the first three months. However, I will be covered by OHIP for ninetay days after I leave the province, so I'm OK. - Eron^Talk 14:43, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Wait till she sees how much insurance in the US costs! This is one of the main reasons I am considering a permanent move from the US to Canada. 192.251.134.5 (talk) 18:45, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

It also depends on why she is going to the US (to hang about, to work, to study). In some provinces, students don't lose their health care coverage if they go to school out of province. In any event, though, the amount provincial health care covers can be a minuscule fraction of what an American doctor or hospital will charge. I was shocked to find out that in the US one could be charged up to $500 for a plain physical. Manitoba Health Care reimburses something like $20 per visit, no matter the reason, and only slightly more if the doctor is a specialist. In Alberta ob/gyns and family physicians are paid the grand total of $500 for a low-risk pregnancy. That covers everything from the earliest pregnancy test up to and including delivery and the first post-natal check-up. An American doctor's fee for the same services could be well into five figures. --NellieBly (talk) 07:13, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

The "free" health insurance that most Canadians receive covers only basic healthcare -- no prescriptions, no vision, no dental, no physical therapy, etc. So Canadians, like Americans, usually also get insurance through their workplace to cover things the provincial insurance plan doesn't cover. One of those things is out-of-country emergency healthcare. If you don't have supplementary health insurance that covers that expense, then it's important to buy travel insurance before leaving Canada. Note that sometimes, Canadian provinces send patients to the U.S. for healthcare unavailable in Canada or will agree to cover a procedure in the U.S. if it cannot be done in a reasonable amount of time in Canada.-- Mwalcoff (talk) 11:40, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

History of world records

I am looking for the dates and values of swimming world records over the last 50-60 years. I'm sure there is a database that catalogues every new record, but I can't seem to get my hands on it. Plasticup ^T/C 14:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The official body for granting world records in swimming is FINA. I checked their web site but it has recently been revamped and not all documents have been transferred over yet. So, I can't find historical data on records there, but that doesn't mean they won't be there at some point in the future. - Eron^Talk 14:40, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Category:Swimming records includes a bunch of "World record progression ..." articles, example World record progression 100 metres freestyle which gives several references and links. ---Sluzzelin talk 15:05, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

cracking knuckles

What makes the noise when you crack knuckles? It seems like something that would be quite disturbing if I weren't so used to it. TastyCakes (talk) 14:42, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

See Cracking joints Nanonic (talk) 14:43, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Family Crests & Coats Of Arms

Hi there, can you please tell me why the coat of arms/family crests keep changing depending on what website you go to?....how is anyone surposed to know the correct one? The spellings of the surname were all the same. Your help would be much appreciated, thanks,

Ony —Preceding unsigned comment added by ONY44 (talk • contribs) 17:22, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Coats of arms are not given to families but to individuals. Rmhermen (talk) 18:44, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The books or websites that promise to find "your coat of arms" are just looking for a coat of arms awarded to someone with a similar name to you. Since they aren't really 'your' arms there is no 'correct' one. Feel free to pick whichever you want. DJ Clayworth (talk) 20:56, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

There's a lot of nonsense in the coat-of-arms business, and plenty of people willing to sell you crests, shields, and other heraldic tchotchkes. As Rmhermen points out, in many (most?) European countries, arms were awarded to individuals. In Scotland, for example, the Lord Lyon King of Arms is the ultimate arbiter of who is entitled to "use arms." You might find the "About coats of arms" page of interest, though of course this applies only to arms granted by the Lord Lyon. You can pick whichever you like, if you're so inclined, though in Scotland if the arms have been registered, infringement is a crime and can be prosecuted. — OtherDave (talk) 21:55, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

In England and Wales, likewise, pretending to arms falsely is an offense tried by the Court of Chivalry, which hasn't done much lately but in a ruling fifty years ago found that it does still exist. Many people (having a decent degree is good enough) can buy new arms from the College of Arms. Algebraist 09:23, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

As DJ Clayworth said, they aren't "your" coat of arms they are somebody's who has a similar name to you. Actually coat of arms can be family arms although this usually goes for continental Europe not the UK. As mentioned above, in some countries it is an offence to use unregistered arms. Some countries don't require registering, although traditional heraldic rules apply to self made arms too. ;) --Cameron* 17:55, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Joining an Improv Comedy Group

How does one join such a group? Better yet, where are the closest classes to the Lehigh Valley (Allentown, PA)? I have attempted to do my own research, but I cannot locate any classes near me. Can any one give me some good insight on this? Thanks!

Kate —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.183.190.77 (talk) 18:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Try find some open-mike (microphone) nights and go to them, try finding people who are part of the improv-group and befriend/ask them about joining, put yourself forward to do little 'sets' in the local area and try raise your profile. All these things will help you in your quest. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 08:27, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

As someone who's in a (fairly inactive) improv comedy group, I'd certainly agree with the user above. If you can't find any improv comedy groups around your way, or none which will take you on, consider asking any actors or stand-up comedians you know if they would be interested.

Improv comedy courses aren't very common, in my experience, although some general improv training might be useful. The most important things are to be confident, remember to enjoy yourself and play to the audience. Pursue themes which go down well with the audience, and don't worry if they don't get something or you feel your performance in one round isn't great - provided the audience are laughing heartily by the end, they won't remember any hiccups along the way. The great advantage of working with a sizeable group is that you don't have to have a great idea every round - you can feed off the other performers. Oh, and most important - don't drink alcohol before you go on, or you will probably find your performance far more amusing than the crowd! Warofdreams talk 12:33, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

August 15

Tornado!

Are you guys OK? I saw on the news that a tornado hit near Wikimedia HQ, while watching the Bigfoot matter that is still (News conference tomorrow) in the news. I suspect that Bigfoot is either a primate or that someone got a suit and decided to play in the woods. 65.173.104.93 (talk) 01:17, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Can someone do something about the replica message above? It caused a edit conflict. 65.173.104.93 (talk) 01:18, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

"We guys" come from many different countries. No tornadoes down here lately. Was your comment about Bigfoot part of any question you'd like an answer to? -- JackofOz (talk) 01:20, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and I was concerned about the people at the Wikipedia HQ in Florida who may have got hit by today's tornado. 65.173.104.93 (talk) 01:37, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikimedia moved to San Francisco last year. They don't have to worry about tornadoes anymore, just earthquakes. Paragon¹²³²¹ 01:41, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Good news - You'll be in position regarding Bigfoot and/or a UFO conference that will be going on Friday and over the weekend. Bad news - California gets several minor quakes, and the occasional quake that could cause some damage. Should've moved to Sedona, Arizona, Only thing there is (alleged) aliens and bizarre creatures that may interest Wikipedians. 65.173.104.93 (talk) 02:05, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Nintendo 64 Games

Hi, I recently (on an impulse) bought a Nintendo 64 at a garage sale. It turned out to be a great move! I've been having a lot of fun with it. Unfortunately, I only have two games, Conker's Bad Fur Day, and Super Mario. I want to get Super Smash Bros for it, but I'm also looking for more games that are like Conker's Bad Fur Day (that is M-rated, similar humor, etc.). If anyone has any suggestions for great N64 games, please, suggest! Also, if any games that are similar to Conker's Bad Fur Day come to mind, please let me know what they're called. Thanks for your suggestions! --71.98.28.63 (talk) 02:24, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Me and my buddy still own this amazing system and I find it to be the best ever. Anyway, you should try finding Star Fox 64, Mario Kart 64, and Banjo Kazooie the original. Banjo Kazooie is an adventure similar to Super Mario in its scale. Mario Kart is a cartoonish racing game, and Star Fox is a shoot em up arcade style from a jet fighter. All very good. Good Luck finding them! The Reader who Writes (talk) 06:10, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I can't beleiver nobody has suggested Goldeneye which might just be the greatest N64 game of them all and also, potentially, the best single-screen multiplayer game in the history of computing citation needed. Anyhoo your best bet to find games will be on things like ebay, garage sales and game-trading shops which often still have older games available. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 07:28, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Goldeneye hasn't really aged as well as Conker's or Super Mario. A major part of what made Goldeneye so special was that it was the first "modern" FPS game that most console gamers had ever played. You can't really re-create that excitement for a modern first-time player. APL (talk) 13:07, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

IGN has a list of the top N64 games. Their list looks pretty good. Here's the 6-10 list (it isn't found on IGN's servers and I had to use Archive.org to find a copy).--droptone (talk) 12:15, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I've got to recommend MarioKart 64. Not the best of the MarioKarts, but they're all pretty fun. (I know you asked for games "like Conker's", but I don't know any. I wish I did.) 13:07, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah. MarioKart 64 is the best N64 game I've played, especially the team battle game.  :-)) Astronaut (talk) 13:39, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestions so far! I'll definitely look into some of those. But yeah, unfortunately I'm beginning to think Conker's was in a league of its own regarding games similar to it. It seems pretty unique! --71.98.23.224 (talk) 18:19, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Part of what made Conker's so popular was it was nothing like Rare had ever released before (or ever released again, except for a remake for Xbox). In fact, Rare didn't even conceive of the game until a normal (by means of comparison) Conker game got delayed and they completely recreated it with an adult theme. Don't waste much time looking, because you won't find anything similar for N64. Concentrate on the classics mentioned above.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 20:47, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Cost of NLP Course

Hi,I am currently looking for a NLP course.I have no idea how much I need to spend,in order to take this course. Can anybody tell me where to get the information of the cost? Or anybody knows the cost? Thanks!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.93.96.226 (talk) 03:31, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia has users in almost every country on Earth. Where do you live, and where are you planning to take the course? Prices will vary wildly not just from country to country but from city to city. --NellieBly (talk) 07:06, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

If I take the course in US or UK,how much will I need to spend?Thanks alot!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.151.198.126 (talk) 07:24, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

What, in your context, is NLP? -- SGBailey (talk) 11:24, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Note that if you plan to take the course in the UK it may depend on whether you are British citizen, an EU citizen who's lived in the UK for a while (I think 5 years) or a foreign student. Nil Einne (talk) 19:19, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

What is NLP? Natural language processing, Neuro-linguistic programming, Nonlinear programming are the only ones that seem possible from the dab page. Is there something we missed on that page? Rmhermen (talk) 19:29, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Why a different page?

Whenever I type Fungi on wikipedia I see a strange page. Why is it doing that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.13.221.79 (talk) 04:59, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

What do you see? I see the article on Fungus (permalink). — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 05:13, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you are looking for Fungi (music)? Plasticup ^T/C 14:09, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

There is also an article on Fungus the Bogeyman. Whoever said "it is not easy to be green" was apparantly mistaken. But typing in "Fungi" goes straight to fungus, the stuff on mushrooms. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:55, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

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Relay Medals

OK - I know that all the team members in a relay race (swimming etc.)compete as a unit so that if the team wins they each collect a medal (I am thinking here of Michael Phelps in his Gold Medal Relay Race the other day). What I don't understand is how any member who fails to win in his bit of the race, despite his later team-member/s catching up in their section/s, can honourably lay claim to a winner's medal. Seems unfair to me. 92.22.209.236 (talk) 11:35, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean by 'win in his bit of a race'? It's a single race, competed in by a single team. If the team wins, then the team members share the victory. By your reasoning, if a relay team won a race without any of the four runners being the fastest for their stage (which is perfectly possible), then no-one could honourably claim victory. Algebraist 11:42, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

It's a team event, so you win as a team and lose as a team. The difficulty with your idea is that with the exception of the first-leg each of the other swimmers are going to start their leg at different times. Whilst you could look at the speed of their leg in isolation it will only tell half the story. If by the time it comes to your leg you are already 3 body-lengths behind it will alter how you swim, similarly if you are 3 lengths ahead you will swim differently - or if you are close then you will be pushed harder by the feeling of other swimmers being near. In short the leg-time in isolation isn't really evidence of whether a person is able to 'honourably' lay claim to a winner's medal. There is no I in team - people who seek to place the victory on one individual unfairly discount the importance of the other team-member's performance (even if it is less than the 'star player') 194.221.133.226 (talk) 12:33, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Does the argument hold for football ? Anyone not directly scoring a goal or touchdown be not entitled to a medal ?86.211.108.189 (talk) 13:50, 15 August 2008 (UTC)DT

Scuse my ignorance Algebraist - but if NONE of the relay team wins in their section of the race - how can it be possible for the team to win the race? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.22.209.236 (talk) 13:53, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

To win, the sum of the times of each of the team members needs to be lower than the sums for the other teams. So it is possible to win none of the segments but still win overall if there are more than two teams. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 14:03, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Think of it like this: Lane 1 does 4 x legs averaging 30 seconds (120 seconds). Lane 2 does 1 leg at 25 seconds and the rest at 35 (35x3 + 25 = 130 seconds). Lane 3, 4 and 5 do the same as Lane 2 - between them they each win a leg of the race but overall they are slower than lane 1. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 14:07, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

So - is that the way it worked when Michael Phelps and his team-mates won their Gold Medal for their relay event? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.22.209.236 (talk) 15:13, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

In the case of the US team's relay, they fell behind, meaning that the first 3 Frenchmen swam combined faster than the first three Americans. But the fourth American swam fast enough to not only be faster than the fourth Frenchman, but fast enough to make the four total American times faster than the four Frenchmen's combined times. Useight (talk) 15:23, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for belabouring the point BUT, in the race in question, if the last swimming American had touched the wall after the last swimming Frenchman - BUT - the USA team had still achieved an overall faster race-time than the French team - would the USA have still taken Gold? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.22.209.236 (talk) 17:16, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

It would be impossible for the American team to have an overall faster race time if last swimming American touched the wall after the last swimming Frenchman. The race is timed from the when the first swimmer starts to when the last swimmer finishes. What you are asking is, in effect "If I came in second in the race but I had a faster time than the winner, would I win?" - Eron^Talk 17:25, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Eron - but unless I have completely lost my marbles - and trusting you have read the whole thread since I posed the OP here - isn't your point exactly what I have been pursuing all along ie., is a relay race won by the last person in the team to cross the line (touch the wall), or on a complex addition of all the component competitors' times for their individual segment of the race as per Algebraist and Zain and Useight above? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.22.209.236 (talk) 17:35, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I have read the whole thread. There is no complex addition required; a team's time in a relay race is simply the sum of the times of all the members of the team. But these times are not recorded separately; a team is given a single time for the race. This time begins at the start of the race, when the first team member starts, and it ends when the last team member finishes his or her leg. All team members contribute to the win. In the case of the American relay team that started this topic off, your positions seems to be "the first three members of the team were really slow and only the last member actually won the race for them." Another way to look at it would be that the first three members of the team were all fast enough for the whole team to win. If a single one of them had been one-tenth of a second slower, they would have lost the race. - Eron^Talk 17:41, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

OK, ok - my head is hurting - but I have gone back to the Algebraist response above - copied here "if a relay team won a race without any of the four runners being the fastest for their stage (which is perfectly possible)," - and I simply can't square that with what you have just written - with which by the way, I entirely agree (your response - not his). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.22.209.236 (talk) 17:57, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay, imagine four teams in a four-man relay race. Teams are designated A, B, C, and D; runners on each team are numbered 1, 2, 3, and 4:

• Leg 1 - A1 1:00 / B1 0:55 / C1 1:05 / D1 1:05 - B1 is the fastest on this leg
• Leg 2 - A2 1:00 / B2 1:10 / C2 0:55 / D2 1:05 - C2 is the fastest on this leg
• Leg 3 - A3 1:00 / B3 1:10 / C3 1:05 / D3 0:55 - D3 is the fastest on this leg
• Leg 4 - A4 1:00 / B4 0:55 / C4 1:05 / D4 1:05 - B4 is the fastest on this leg
• Overall time: A 4:00 / B 4:10 / C 4:10 / D 4:10 / A wins the race without winning a leg.

Put another way:

• Team A - Leg 1 1:00 / Leg 2 1:00 / Leg 3 1:00 / Leg 4 1:00 - Total 4:00 - Legs won 0
• Team B - Leg 1 0:55 / Leg 2 1:10 / Leg 3 1:10 / Leg 4 0:55 - Total 4:10 - Legs won 2
• Team C - Leg 1 1:05 / Leg 2 0:55 / Leg 3 1:05 / Leg 4 1:05 - Total 4:10 - Legs won 1
• Team D - Leg 1 1:05 / Leg 2 1:05 / Leg 3 0:55 / Leg 4 1:05 - Total 4:10 - Legs won 1

Does this help? - Eron^Talk 18:10, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Not sure if this will help or not...but...

Team A has times of 30, 30, 30, and 30. - Total of 2 minutes.

Team B has times of 16, 35, 35, and 35. - Total of 2 minutes, 1 second.

Team C has times of 35, 16, 35, and 35. - Total of 2 minutes, 1 second.

Team D has times of 35, 35, 16, and 35. - Total of 2 minutes, 1 second.

Team E has times of 35, 35, 35, and 16. - Total of 2 minutes, 1 second.

Team A lost every individual stage, but they still have the fastest total time. --Onorem♠Dil 18:06, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Wow !!! You folks are amazing - BUT - it would be easier finding weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Please ---- Yes or No ---- Is the result of a swimming relay at the Beijing Olympics based on which team's last swimmer touches the wall first - OR - on the overall team-members' leg-times????

It's based on which swimmer touchers the wall first, but that is a direct result of the overal team-member's leg times. It is impossible, based on our current understanding of physics and without someone violating the rules for a team's last swimmer to touch the wall first without his/her team also having the lowest overall leg times. This is no different to the way an individual runner/swimmer will have the lowest race time if he/she crosses the line/touches the wall first. Nil Einne (talk) 19:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

(EC) Maybe this much simpler even if almost definitely never to occur in real world example would help. We are talking about a 2 person relay here. Team A's 1st competitor finishes his/her leg in 1 second. The 2nd team A competitor takes 1 hour for his/her leg. Team B's 2nd finishes his/her leg in 1 second. But team B 1st competitors takes 1 hour for his/her leg of the race. Team C's 2 competitors each take 1 minute. It should be obvious without needing to do the sums that team C will finish first, but that neither of team C's competitors won their leg of the race. Nil Einne (talk) 19:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

In table form:

• Team A; 1 second, 1 hour
• Team B; 1 hour, 1 second
• Team C; 1 minute, 1 minute (finishes first)

Nil Einne (talk) 19:04, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Nil Einne - you get Gold

Eron - you get Silver

Useight - you get Bronze, and

Algebraist, you get to swim in the Straits of Hormuz.

But thanks to everyone. Wish I could buy you all a drink. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.22.209.236 (talk) 19:26, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I have another question in this area. Some participants only swim in the qualifying heats, and not in the finals. Do those participants get medals? Corvus cornix_talk 19:32, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes. They do not stand on the podium at the medal ceremony, but are given the appropriate medal later (I can't recall if it's later on but during the Games, or only after they're home....I think my memory is that their NOC gives them the medals after returning home). User:Jwrosenzweig editing as 71.231.197.110 (talk) 19:36, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

How many members of a relay them can there be then? 8? 12? Nil Einne (talk) 19:47, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Looks like 6 for track (athletics). I think it is more for swimming. Rmhermen (talk) 20:27, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to be a wet blanket, particularly after the prizes have been given out, but some of the above reasoning is flawed. Particularly the bit about it being possible to win none of the stages but still be the winner. Zain made the point that there have to be more than 2 teams for this to work, and I can see what he's getting at; but it doesn't work even then. The issue is the definition of "win". A race always starts from zero velocity. That works for the first stage, and it also works for the overall race; so it's quite possible to measure who won the first stage and who won the overall race. But for each of the stages after the first, they're not only moving when they start the stage, but moving at different speeds, so there's no basis for comparison. Unless, of course, you have one definition of "win" for the first stage and the overall race, but a very different definition of "win" for all the individual stages after the first. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:14, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

That's why I said 'being the fastest for their stage' rather than winning a stage, which, as I said to begin with, doesn't make much sense. Algebraist 23:19, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, if we define "winning a stage" as "being the fastest for that stage" or "completing that stage in the least time" then it works for each stage, including the first. Then extend "stage" to include the whole race and the same definition of "win" would still work, right? Zain Ebrahim (talk) 23:26, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

"Completing that stage in the least time" is a lot better - it's certainly more meaningful than "win"; except that a competitor who's already running at, say, 15 kph when he starts a stage, has more momentum than a competitor of equal mass who's only running at 14 kph, and thus has a greater advantage. So comparisons of the time taken to complete a non-initial stage are still flawed. One could assume for the purposes of this exercise that they're all running at the same speed at the instant they commence a stage; but that would be a rather unhelpful assumption given that this is a race, in which, by definition, each competitor is trying to run faster than all the others. -- JackofOz (talk) 12:14, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

But doesn't the starting speed depend on the type of race? The initial question here was inspired by a swimming relay race, where every competitor in every leg does start from zero. You make a good point about running races though. One way to look at it is that every runer still has to start from zero, although (except for the first leg) they are not timed until they get up to speed. However, the need to match speed with the previous runner to achieve a baton pass must have an effect as well - it doesn't matter how fast a runner is at the start of the leg if the person passing the baton cannot keep up with him.

(I also had a minor digression into thinking about triathlon, which can be looked at as a relay race run by a single person. The initial question was about three out of four members of a relay term not deserving the medal because none of them won their legs; in triathlon it can and does happen that the overall race is won by someone who doesn't win any legs.) - Eron^Talk 12:43, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see what happened here. I was thinking about swimming where, according to my admittedly poor understanding, each team member starts from rest. Is this necessarily not the case for track-based relay? I would imagine that the non-initial player should be given credit for starting at a higher speed than his/her corresponding opponent while still being able to grab the baton. Does the person who hands over the baton not slow down a bit before handing over? And does the receiver have to be moving at the same speed as the giver or, at least, does the giver's speed necessarily affect the receiver's starting speed in practice? If so, you're right - it would be an "unfair" advantage. Or, am I totally missing something?

Also note that I replied to the OP who used "win in their section" which (since he/she was responding to Algebraist) I assumed to mean what Algebraist said. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 12:42, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Source for Quote: "Your Lack of Planning..."

Who is the source for the quote: "Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."?

Thank you for any help,

--Grey1618 (talk) 13:31, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Google "Lack of planning on your part" and you will be offered a page of references. Why not do this before asking here?86.211.108.189 (talk) 13:48, 15 August 2008 (UTC)DT

to the OQ from the ref desk, lack of searching on your part does not require a response on ours. LOL!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 15:24, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I see nothing resembling an answer to the question in the first two pages of Google results. -- BenRG (talk) 15:57, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I did perform a google search and, as the above commenter noted, found nothing useful in the first several pages. Mostly companies selling mugs with that quote, unattributed, painted on. --Grey1618 (talk) 16:03, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Some sources attribute it to David Brent of The Office. Whether the show really invented the line or it's simply one of potentially many shows which used an existing line I don't know. Proof of it existing before 2001 will be enough to disprove The Office as a source. BTW, I found this from Google. '"Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part"' found nothing useful (mostly attributed to unknown), as others have noted. '"Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part" source' also didn't find anything useful but '"Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part" quotation' came across one with David Brent as the source. A search for '"Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part" David Brent' shows several sources linking it do there. I did briefly look for sources predating 2001 but didn't find anything useful and it doesn't appear at all on usenet that I found Nil Einne (talk) 21:36, 15 August 2008 (UTC) Scratch that, it does exist on usenet before 2001. I think I accidentally searched on Google News instead of Groups the first time around... Nil Einne (talk) 21:40, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Good paper sorting method?

Okay, kind of a boring question, but hopefully someone out there will have some insight ...

I'm a co-librarian of a choir. After each performance, the choir members (the co-librarian and me included among them, since we also sing) turn in their sheet music, which is numbered (1 through 50, for example), and the other librarian and I sort it into numerical order and return it to our music library. The choir members turn in the music so that each song is in its own pile, but, of course, each pile is not in numerical order to start with.

So here's my question: what's the fastest way to sort 50 pieces of paper into numerical order? We usually have something like 12-15 separate "sets" (i.e., piles) of music to sort. In the past, we've recruited friends and family members, but it still ends up taking a fairly long time, about a half hour or more depending on how much help we get. We've also tried doing this thing where one of us would sort numbers 1-25 of each pile and set aside numbers 26-50 to be sorted by the other. That worked a little better, but I'm hoping there's some super-fast method I haven't thought of.

Thanks in advance! Dgcopter (talk) 15:35, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Get the quiristers to line up in order of the numbers on their sheet music, and to place their copy face down on top of the previously placed piece. DuncanHill (talk) 15:39, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm tempted to suggest some sort of Sorting algorithm like Quicksort, but I don't think that would actually help for humans sorting physical pieces of paper. Probably DuncanHill's solution is better, if that's not feasable, then perhaps some sort of compromise. Set up a bunch of piles for "Pages 1-5","Pages 6-10". It seems like that would speed things up considerably. APL (talk) 15:44, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Whistle while you work Plasticup ^T/C 15:49, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Heh, it's funny, but I had thought about using something like a bubble sort, but yeah, like you say, humans sorting physical things don't work as well as computers sorting data. Regarding DuncanHill's suggestion: the problem is that the choristers ... well ... aren't very helpful. Notice I say we recruited family and friends? That's because nobody else sticks around. And we were thinking about doing separate piles for different ranges, like APL suggests, but sometimes we don't have the space, especially when there are 15 separate sets of sheet music to be turned in. Dgcopter (talk) 16:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I think you were on the right track when you separated them into smaller piles, what if you did that again on each pile? I'd think that splitting the piles would go fairly quickly and each time you did it it should greatly increase the ease of sorting each pile especially with more than one person (or you could keep doing it until you had 50 one sheet piles in the correct order). I believe this would be a quicksort the only sorting algorithm that seems to be able to improve human performance. Just a thought, no idea how efficient it would be in practice. -- Mad031683 (talk) 16:52, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

You could perhaps assign the music by musical section and then have them return it by section. This would be easier than lining up the entire choir and would automatically presort each song into (assuming SATB music) four piles. (Since choirs are so used to following their director's orders, I wouldn't think would be a problem to make them line up in number order. Certainly more reasonable than the "sing a red laser-like A-flat while giving a backrub to your left-hand neighbor" orders I used to get in choir.) Rmhermen (talk) 17:30, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm curious why you re-sort the music into numerical order. I'm guessing you don't know who had which number, and so if copy 7 is missing, you can't go to Carl and ask where it went. Do they get handed out in numerical order for any reason? Maybe you could save time just counting them... if one were missing, you'd be no worse off than you are now. Just wondering... —OtherDave (talk) 20:13, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

This is not a quicksort but a bucket sort, and it is a good way of sorting numbered pieces of paper in my experience. Ideally the bucket size should be close to an nth root of the number of items. The square root of 50 is about 7, but unless you're good at dividing by 7 in your head you're probably better off with a size of 5 or 10. If you go with 10 then you're doing a radix sort. -- BenRG (talk) 20:43, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Bucket sort and merge sort seem to be two general sorting algorithms that are reasonably suitable for human implementation. Of those, the bucket sort is often simpler, but it really depends on what you're sorting and how familiar you are with each. With either algorithm, one would usually revert to something like insertion sort when the number of sorted items gets small enough. For example, using a bucket sort, you might want to first sort the 50 sheets into piles of 5 or 10 sheets each, and then sort each pile.

However, in this particular case, a pigeonhole sort could also be applied to good effect. It would be most convenient to have some sort of tray with numbered slots you could slip the sheets into, but if you have the space, you could just, say, lay out the sheets into an ordered 5 × 10 grid and then gather them up. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 20:55, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

This method requires the person who's sorting to handle each piece of paper once. Assuming the numbering is on the right:

(1) Lay a sheet down.

(2) If the second sheet's number is lower than that of the first, lay it on the first sheet while keeping a large portion of the first sheet's right side exposed. If the second sheet's number is higher, insert it beneath the first sheet while keeping the second sheet's right side showing. This is so that every page's number can be seen at a glance.

(3) Insert the next sheet where appropriate. If there are pages with consequtive numbers, move them so ones hide the other; their page numbers are no longer needed, and cluster should be reduced as much as possible.

(4) Repeat. --Bowlhover (talk) 05:40, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

It can be proven that there is no single 'best' algorithm for sorting. You have to know something about the nature of disorder in the things you are sorting. If (for example) your music sheets are mostly in the right order with just one or two that are in the wrong place then you can simply looking through the sheets and every time you find one in the wrong place - putting it into the right place - then continuing the search from where you left off. But if the sheets are truly in utterly random order then something like quicksort will be faster. If you have sheets that all have utterly unique numbers - then a different sort is needed than if you have a lot with the same number - or if you have a lot of numbers for which there are no sheets.

Sadly, most sorting algorithms are designed for computers to perform - and there are a lot of differences when a human is sorting paper. The computer can maintain very complex data structures and never make a mistake - but humans aren't good at that. Trying to do a 'quicksort' in your brain is REALLY difficult! Physically moving a sheet of paper from one place in the stack to another is more "expensive" than moving a number from one memory location to another inside a computer - doing a physical bubblesort seems a ridiculous way to do it because you move the data around far more than you strictly need to. We need a sort that takes advantage of what humans are good at and avoids things we're useless at.

Our eyes can scan a lot of data in parallel - and we have pattern recognisers that operate more efficiently than conscious thought. With special hardware like that, computer algorithms would change significantly.

I would expect (without proof) that a "bucket sort" would be the best for totally random ordering with a human doing the sorting. If your sheets are numbered from 1 to 50, make (say) five piles ("buckets") by looking through all of the sheets, placing those numbered 1 through 9 in the first pile, 10 though 19 in the next, 20 through 29 in the next and so on. Now it's a lot easier to sort each pile by simply looking for all of the sheets whose last digit is 1 and putting them at the bottom of the pile, then all the sheets ending in 2, then 3...and so on until the pile is sorted. Then you just have to stack the pile in the right order and you're done. In computer bucket sorting, the choice of the number of buckets to use is an important criteria. So if sorting each of your five piles is still too hard - then perhaps you need to start with more piles - so place 1 through 4 in the first pile, 5 though 9 into the second pile, 10 through 14 in the next and so on - this makes sorting the piles easier - but leaves you with more piles to sort. Taken to a ridiculous degree, you could have 50 piles - one for each number. Now sorting the piles takes no time - but placing the pages into their piles and stacking the resulting piles is inconvenient for our human "hardware" because dealing with 50 piles of paper means you can't conveniently reach all of them. Thus, the algorithm for sorting piles of sheet music might be different from the algortithm for sorting a deck of cards simply because cards are physically smaller than sheets of music.

If more than one person can help - then you can still use a bucket sort - but you might want to split the pile of music in two - have each person sort their pile - then merge the two piles together at the end by repeatedly picking up a sheet from whichever pile as the lowest numbered sheet on the top.

SteveBaker (talk) 15:42, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think this would be helpful for such a small number of thin sheets, but in computer punch card days, it was common to draw a diagonal stripe along the edge so that if they got out of order you could sort them simply by making the line straight rather than ordering the card numbers. Example at right. --Sean 18:55, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Note sorting stripes

Back in the late 1970's when I used punched cards in college, we had an automatic card sorter. It was a gigantic machine that implemented a bucket sort in hardware. So we never really used the stripes. But it was very common to write things on the edges of the cards - so even without the stripes, it was usually pretty easy to tell when a card was out of order. SteveBaker (talk) 19:50, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Most people I've met seem to find Insertion Sort and sometimes Selection Sort to be the most intuitive to do by hand. Mergesort works too. 98.14.106.191 (talk)

50 is too small a number for it to make any difference which sorting method you use. You only start to see a difference if it gets up over 100 - for example if you had to sort 500 pieces of paper. For any large number like that, you would only want to use a quicksort method. Apteva (talk) 00:12, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

What is the Question?

OK - silly I know - but what question would I ask in Wkipedia that would be impossible to answer? No prizes for "How long is a piece of string>") —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.22.209.236 (talk) 20:09, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

You could ask any number of questions, but most would be hypothetical, paradoxical, or nonsensical (which means they'd fit right in).

• If George Washington had played the oboe, would he have been a better musician than Ieyasu Tokugawa?
• What happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?
• If upsidaisium existed, what would be its atomic number?

• How much of it would you need to travel to Mars?
• Would that include your supply of Doritos?
• If you were outside the spaceship, could you hear George Washington playing Mozart's Oboe Quintet?

• What are seven irrefutable proofs for the existence of God as He is understood by the Wee Frees?
• What is wrong with those people? (Any those you care to think of, not necessarily the Wee Frees.)

— OtherDave (talk) 20:25, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

This statement is false. Is the previous statement true or false? Angus Lepper (not logged in) 20:50, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

That one's easy: no. Algebraist 20:57, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Or indeed, Yes. Dostioffski (talk) 05:05, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

No, the correct answer to "Is the previous statement true or false?" is definitely "No". If the statement were true then it would be false, therefore it cannot be true; if it were false then it would not be false, therefore it cannot be false either. A statement that is neither true nor false is perfectly acceptable in logics that do not include the axiom of the excluded middle. Gandalf61 (talk) 09:48, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

And a sequence of words that is neither true nor false is even more acceptable – some philosophers deal with liar-style sentences by declaring them to not be proper statements at all. Algebraist 11:45, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

According to the annoying (but correct) Kurt Godel: For any computable axiomatic system that is powerful enough to describe the arithmetic of the natural numbers then if the system is consistent, it cannot be complete. In other words if English is powerful enough to express useful concepts such as arithmetic, there are bound to be things like "This statement is false" that are impossible to either prove or disprove. (The atomic number of usidaisium is pi.) SteveBaker (talk) 15:12, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi Steve; welcome back (although I assume you were that certain recognizable Anonymous poster for a while). I don't think this application of Gödel is really exactly on point. First, English is not an axiomatic system; perhaps even more importantly, the question is not whether this statement is false is provable or refutable, but only whether it's true or false. One of the most important take-away messages from Gödel's incompleteness theorems (link provided for those interested) is precisely that truth and provability are not the same thing.

As Algebraist and you both seem to be saying, one way out of the liar paradox is to take the view that that particular sequence of English words does not express a proposition. Whether this is entirely satisfactory I'm not quite sure; I think it's a complicated question. In any case the GIT does not seem to be directly relevant, though it could be useful as an analogy. --Trovatore (talk) 23:46, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I suspect you'll get responses ("answers") to every question you ask, so your question is almost impossible to answer in a sense! You could choose a question from one of the many lists in the great list of lists --Bowlhover (talk) 09:52, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

No question can't be answered because questions exist to have answers. Now whether or not the answer is sensical, logical, and/or non-subjective that's a different barrel of monkeys. Omahapubliclibrary (talk) 21:35, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

How many monkeys in a barrel? Lemon martini (talk) 15:28, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Shotguns with more than 2 barrels

I heard that there were shotguns made that had more than 2 barrels. Anyone know anything about this that can provide more info? ScienceApe (talk) 21:20, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

According to our article Insurgency weapon, the Winchester Liberator was a 4-barreled shotgun. DuncanHill (talk) 21:24, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

And these people [6] will sell you a 4-barreled shotgun. DuncanHill (talk) 21:27, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Related follow-up question, is it possible for a double barreled shotgun to use magazines or carry multiple shells that can be cycled like a pump action or semi automatic? ScienceApe (talk) 00:17, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Don't know about double-barreled shotguns, but here is a single barreled-shotgun with a magazine [7]. DuncanHill (talk) 00:21, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

It seems possible, but what would be the point? The reason for a double-barreled gun is to give you two shots without reloading; a single-barreled gun with magazine gives you that already (and more), so why add the extra barrel? 81.187.153.189 (talk) 10:14, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Double-barrelled shotguns generally allow you to fire with both barrels at once when you need more "stopping power". Ading more barrels makes the thing heavy and unbalanced. Pump-action shotguns are able to fire multiple round in quick succession - but not THAT quick! SteveBaker (talk) 15:57, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Like SteveBaker said, firing both barrels at once is the point. ScienceApe (talk) 20:53, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

There certainly appear to be semi-automatic shotguns that chamber the next round on each shot. Maybe one of them is double-barreled. Done right, you could double the firing rate too (fire the second round before the first has chambered). Franamax (talk) 01:01, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

August 16

Wikipede

Why is Wikipe-tan (I am a fan of her :D ) more used than Wikipede? (IF I am not mistaken, he has not been used at all) Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 03:15, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

He (or it) doesn't appear unused. See links I know he has been used in the Picture tutorial for a long time. Rmhermen (talk) 05:17, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps there are more otakus than insect-phile on Wikipedia :p? --antilived^{T | C | G} 05:17, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe to promote both of them, Kasuga would have to draw both of them along with Jimbo :D Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 05:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe because a large percentage of wikipedians are young males (this includes me, but I've never used either)? Nil Einne (talk) 10:14, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Huhuhuh. You ever jacked off to a centipede? Bradley10 (talk) 16:52, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

How can i upload picture while ask question in reference desk.

i need to upload picture from my pc to ask a technical question in the reference desk. How can i do it ? The is a link named "embedded file", when i click on it; "Image:Example.jpg" appears in the editing field. That's confusing. Can any one explain me how can i upload a picture from my pc.

Wikipedia:Upload. bibliomaniac15 04:59, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

However, you have to be an established editor (4 days old and have made at least 10 edits) to upload images. Dostioffski (talk) 05:03, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

If the image is your own copyright, you can save 4 days and upload it to Wikimedia Commons. Algebraist 11:43, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Or, since you just want to illustrate a question, upload it to flickr, photobucket, or one of dozens of free photo sites, and link to it in your question. 81.187.153.189 (talk) 16:00, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

food science

Why does liver of meats especially of chicken turns green while cooking? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gnanesh123 (talk • contribs) 06:06, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

This question was also asked on the Science Desk, where it belongs. If you have any answer to give, I suggest posting it there. --Anon, 06:25 UTC, August 16, 2008.

Indian Air Force

The Indian Air Force has 1,430 combat aircraft, but there are more than 125 MiG-21 in service. Su-30MKI in the Indian Air Force numbers 116. My questions are:

• Why the Indian Air Force still maintains MiG-21?
• What will be the future of Su-30MKI in Indian Air Force. Will the number expected to increase?
• It is very much possible Indian Air Force will replace its MiG-21 fleet with HAL Tejas. My question is when HAL Tejas will enter production stage, will there any possibility of import version of this aircraft to other Asian countries? How many HAL Tejas are expected to be in service in the Indian Air Force?
• The Indian Armed Forces only use 0.5% of GDP, while Israel Defense Forces use more than 9% of GDP, British Armed Forces uses more than 2% of GDP, Military of Pakistan uses more than 4% of GDP. Why India expends so little for military? Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 14:57, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

This link seems to imply that Mig21s are still (in 2002) in service as front line combat aircraft, and are also used for training; our article MiG-21 indicates that they perform well against more modern aircraft in combat. DJ Clayworth (talk) 17:41, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

How can I get kicked out of the Olympics?

I realize I could simply fail a drug test, not show up for scheduled event, etc. But what I'm looking for here is is something that would get me headlines. Something that would help my career! Long term is what I'm reaching for here. Bad publicity is often good publicity (see Vanessa Williams). In light of that -if I ever make it to the Olympics, I wanna get forcefully evicted! How can I then parlay that into a endorsement filled, well rounded, big payday kinda life? Hey, I'm Just Curious (talk) 16:49, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I can't think of anybody whose career was boosted by getting kicked out. You're better off going the Eddie the Eagle route - do something absurdly memorable in competition. Clarityfiend (talk) 17:05, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Getting kicked out of the Olympics is not that difficult. It's qualifying in the first place that's going to be your challenge. - Eron^Talk 18:12, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

From the three above-mentioned methods, I would think that Tommie Smith's political protest expulsion is the only one that might possibly lead to some further notability and success. I can imagine an Olympian making a pro-Tibet statement on the medal stand this year - and working a public speaking career out of it. Rmhermen (talk) 18:19, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, the Eddie the Eagle stunt would work best, but remember that you would gain some renown if you did something really dumb sneaking into an event. For instance, Morganna had much renown for some time in the 1980s in the United States as the "Kissing Bandit" for running onto ballfields kissing players at various times. And, American baseball fans remember Eddie Gaedel fondly as the midget sent up to bat once.

Of course, security is tighter than you can imagine and going up to athletes and kissing them is not a good idea. Rather, you should try the Gaedel route - perhaps you could sneak into an event with a neon green outfit and day-glo hair, and do something bizarre that won't hurt anyone, but will draw laughts. Throw a beach ball onto the field at a soccer match, or sneak into the beach volleyball venue and build a big sandcastle. Put a non-toxic green dye into the water for some water event, like what Chicago does to Lake Michigan during St. Patrick's Day. Sneak into the Olympics in an event where it's not just a bunch of people in starting blocks, like the Marathon, and wear a really weird uniform with a strange flag. Or, if you're talking Winter Games, some weird stuff that's fitting for them.

In other words, stuff that David Letterman or Jay Leno will be able to use for years. Sure, you'll eventually get kicked out and be personal non grata for any future Games, but that is your whole point, isn't it, to be kicked out? And, if you change appearances, you might be able to do 2-3 of those before getting tossed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.244.187.155 (talk) 19:15, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Be aware that at least in the USA, it is universal television policy not to put a camera on anyone disrupting a sporting event, be it a streaker or just an ordinary nuissance, just for the reason that they're doing it for attention. Even if you somehow get on the world feed, since a lot of coverage that airs on TV is pre-recorded, if you do something stupid at the Olympic games, you're very likely to get edited out, which doesn't promote your cause of getting famous out of it. Plus think about it: How is someone just making a spectacle going to get companies to back him/her for endorsement? If you do something political, like mention Tibet, you might get a news blurb on TV, which will doubtfully include your name, and you won't be thought of as a famous "national hero" anywhere outside of Tibet, and you're basically risking your life.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 21:45, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

And that is exactly why you need to do something not just stupid, but rather politically motivated and stupid. :) A huge stunt to protest some world event (Tibet for instance) would be perfect. Ideally it would be something highly visible and difficult to immediately hush-up. Suspending dozens of people in climbing gear from some high location, like Green Peace does to shut down a harbor, would be good. Recruiting thousands of volunteers for some stunt would be ideal. In other words look at what Improv Everywhere and The Chaser's War on Everything do, and try for something like that on a huge scale. If the disruption is severe enough you’re practically guaranteed to make international news (and probably get arrested to boot if they can find you!). I assume you have some common sense though. This kind of stuff does happen and the people do become famous, but the people who do it know the risks and usually are aware of the legal and physical dangers. --S.dedalus (talk) 23:15, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Just think - you could become the Corey Worthington of the Olympics. What a wonderful goal to aim for. The stupid media made him famous, and wealthy overnight ($200,000 at least, not bad for a 16-year old), and now apparently he has a budding movie career - all because he held a party at his parents' house while they were away, invited 500 of his closest personal friends, and it went wrong, and he refused to show any remorse when questioned by current affairs TV. What a hero. (not) -- JackofOz (talk) 23:33, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that was a strange incident. It’s true though, if you’re thick and lucky you can become an instant sensation overnight for no reason at all. --S.dedalus (talk) 23:49, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Becoming a sensation for no reason at all is far preferable to being handsomely rewarded for bad behaviour. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:50, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Dawn Fraser made a pretty good attempt at getting herself kicked out in 1964. Steewi (talk) 12:46, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I think you're going down the wrong road here. Pretty much everyone in Canada knows who Ben Johnson is, but he isn't getting many advertising endorsements. DJ Clayworth (talk) 17:34, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Run amok during an event killing off several other athletes? You'd be notable,but your career(and future life expectancy) may take a severe plummet Lemon martini (talk) 00:08, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Dorando Pietri did rather well out of being disqualified from the 1908 Olympics. Warofdreams talk 14:46, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Being Chased

When you're being chased by something, i.e. a shark, a crocodile, etc. and there's another person with you, would it be safer to split up? Cause there's a chance it'll go for the other person, but if it doesn't you're screwed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.179.52.204 (talk) 19:22, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Depends. Are you faster than the other person? --Ye Olde Luke (talk) 19:25, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Hence the old joke - two guys encounter a grizzly bear - one says "RUN!" the other one says "We can't outrun a grizzly bear!" the first one says "No - but I don't have to, I only have to outrun you!". SteveBaker (talk) 19:36, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, if you think about this logically, your chances may improve with splitting up if you're slower than the other guy: there's at least some chance that the bear, bigfoot or vampire is more interested in the other guy, even if he is faster. If you don't split up and the other guy's ahead of you when the diabolical minion of the Great Old One reaches you, you're a goner anyway. Of course, that's assuming that the terrible and merciless hellbeast is just going to stop in its tracks and start eating or mauling the poor bastard who got caught. If it just bites the victim's head off and continues to run after the other one, it probably doesn't make that much practical difference whether Dick Cheney kills you right away or two minutes later. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 11:17, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

OK. so I have split up and the bear has gone after my (ex?) partner. What should I do ? Chase both in the hope of distracting the bear ? Hurtle off for a first aid kit/assistance, etc. ? Just hurtle off ?86.197.20.225 (talk) 15:23, 17 August 2008 (UTC)DT

"chase both in the hope of distracting the bear?" Hell no! The reason you split off was that so you'd live. Personally, I'd go for the latter option. The other dude's pretty much toast already. --Ye Olde Luke (talk) 18:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

So - to summarize: If you think you're faster than the other guy - "stick together" (although you actually plan to keep you, him and the critter in a dead straight line with the other guy in the middle) so that the bear grabs him and gives you more time to escape...er...go for help. If you think you might be slower than the other guy - then splitting up makes more sense because (at least initially) the critter might not notice that he's moving slightly faster than you are - so it's a 50/50 chance that you'll get away. SteveBaker (talk) 00:31, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

And hope the other guy hasn't read this Reference Desk. --Ye Olde Luke (talk) 02:27, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

operating systems

Note:Deleted double-posted question --Ye Olde Luke (talk) 21:00, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

switched from windows xp to linux OS 2007? Have Asus desktop looking for downloads to update my linux system, not getting antwhere at Asus website. Any suggestions, please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jerry Snider (talk • contribs) 20:07, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Which distro? Is it Ubuntu, Redhat...? Do you know what the computer model name is, and which software you want to update?78.150.238.131 (talk) 18:04, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikidefcon Level 1?

Forgive me if this is a naïve question, but I've only recently obtained WP:Huggle and Rollback, so I don't have that much experience (yet). :)

Has there been any time in recent history when WikiDefcon was at Level 1 (highest)? —LaPianista! «talk» 23:30, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I remember an established user jokingly vandalized it with the message "ZOMG VANDALISM," but other than that I can't remember when it was actually a 1. bibliomaniac15 00:18, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

When rollback was down a couple of weeks ago an overzealous editor put it at one; I'm glad I got to experience that in my lifetime :) CL — 00:21, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

August 17

Classy Liquors

Dear Wikipedian contributors,

I am hosting a relatively high-end party in my home in a few weeks and would like some advice on drinks selection. I live in New York City, USA and have invited a few of my corporate associates for a formal dinner and party. We are all in our mid-40's and 50's and enjoy a good drink. Having never hosted an event so formal, I do not want to embarrass myself by serving inappropriate types of drinks. I have, of course, the usual wine and champagne ordered, but I am unsure as to what types of liquors should be served. By "types", I am simply referring to a general class of distilled beverages, such as whiskey, cognac, rum, etc... At the moment, I'm thinking some high-end Cognac, such as some Remy-Martin XO, would be appropriate and perhaps some whiskey. Could someone help me out?

Thanks, Edwar. ITGSEETest (talk) 00:15, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Rather than invite Wikipedians to endorse their favourite brands, perhaps you would be better to find a nice-looking liquor store and ask the people there. They may be trying to push something in particular, but if you take your time, they will likely be able to give you a very good cross-section of local tastes. You could also discuss their returns policy, in case no-one is interested in parts of your selection. Franamax (talk) 00:43, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

It depends on what you want to do with the drinks - if you're looking for something to offer round after dinner, or something, then a nice Cognac would be good. If you intend to offer people a choice of drinks away from the dinner table (as they arrive, say), I would have at least one example of each of the major spirits (whisk(e)y, rum, brandy, vodka, gin, maybe some others I've forgotten) along with standard mixers, as well as red and white (dry and medium) wine and some beer (a choice of lager, bitter or stout would be good). The aim is to have whatever someone is likely to request, then you can just ask what they would like and serve them, without having to worry about what you do and don't have. --Tango (talk) 01:32, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Back in the day, my father was involved in New York corporate drinking. (I am not.) Tastes may have changed, but back then (70s), a fine Scotch whisky would have been the most popular liquor. Connoisseurs of Scotch whisky I think tend to prefer single-malt whiskies such as Glenfiddich over blended whiskies. Another essential would have been a fine English gin such as Boodles British Gin. While tastes may have changed in the past 30 years or so, I would think that Scotch and gin would still be popular. Maybe you would want to have a vodka as well. Marco polo (talk) 01:34, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Tango is right to add beer to the list, but I think that for this crowd, it has to be artisanal microbrewery beer, such as Anchor Steam Beer or Sam Adams, or pale ale (the American term for bitter), especially India pale ale (IPA). Someone just might want stout, too. Marco polo (talk) 01:46, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

May I just enlarge on the above differing spellings of whisky/whiskey? In Scotland, the product also known as Scotch (ie Whisky distilled and bottled in Scotland UK)is spelled whisky, without an 'e', whereas elsewhere, such as Ireland, the USA, Canada, their grain spirits of a similar type to Scotch, are called Whiskey, with an 'e'. I mention this only so that your corporate guests, who may know the difference, will not be laughing up their sleeve at your serving them the wrong drink. 92.16.118.114 (talk) 16:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Whiskey: Glenlivet, Rum: No clue (I stick with Sailor Jerry's or Captain Morgan Private Stock, neither of which are very high class), Vodka: Grey Goose, Gin: No clue, Bourbon: Maker's Mark, Cognac: Remy-Martin XO seems fine, Tequila: no clue (again, I've only had mid-end stuff). Quality beers are also important, you may want to ask them their beer preferences beforehand so you don't have to buy so many varieties. Also you'd need the ingredients to make the typical mixes: tonic water, quality vermouth, simple syrup, freshly squeezed lime and lemon juice (this is important since fresh juice is so much better than the concentrated stuff). I'm probably missing a few other ingredients since I am not very experienced in such matters. Feel free to add ingredients that would be required. You may also want to have Jack Daniels around as well.--droptone (talk) 12:29, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Whisky - Scotch Whisky, hence the name: Single Malt is much classier. If you can get an unusual one (ie: not Glenfiddich, Glenmorangie, etc... it'll probably go down better). Gin, go for Plymouth or Hendricks. Rum - I think people generally go for an old Havana rum - they increase in price by age.

Or you could just tell them to stop being so poncy and get a 6 pack of special brew each... Bradley10 (talk) 16:51, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

As far as gin goes, Hendrick's takes the cake. Several international competitions have labeled it the best in the world, and this classy wikipedian agrees. Plasticup ^T/C 18:41, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

And what does a classy guy like you drink it out of, Plasticup? -- Coneslayer (talk) 18:48, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Where I can, gin and tonics from a crystal highball glass or martinis from a martini glass. Plasticup ^T/C 02:37, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Bell Canada's advertisements

What does the "er" highlights in their ads refer or mean? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.148.176.201 (talk) 00:33, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

According to this and some others, it's some weird attempt to tie the brand to the word better. To me, it just seems lamer. (On the other hand, it did get you to think about it, didn't it?) Clarityfiend (talk) 15:42, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Napoli, Italy

Does the name of this Italian city have any reference to the French conqueror Napolean? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.148.176.201 (talk) 00:44, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it's more likely to be the other way around. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:46, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

From History of Naples, "Around the 5th century BC, the area was occupied by inhabitants of the Greek colony of Cuma, who displaced the original inhabitants to the east where they founded Neapolis (meaning "New City" in the Greek language)." Dostioffski (talk) 01:18, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, of course Neapolis/Napoli/Naples is much more ancient than Napoleon and could not have been named after him. According to several sources, "Napoli" and "Napoleon" are unrelated etymologically. "Napoli" is derived from the Greek "Neapolis", whereas "Napoleon" is believed to be derived from the German "Nibelung". Marco polo (talk) 01:20, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Pity he never got a chance to attend a performance of The Ring. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:33, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Our article Napoleon (disambiguation) says the name "Napoleon" may derive from "Neapolis" (Latin and Greek for "Naples"), and originally meant "from Naples", or Greek ναπη or ναπος = "(forest) valley" and λεων = "lion", i.e. "lion of the valley" or similar. Nederlandse Voornamen Databank Dostioffski (talk) 01:24, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Results

OK, I know this might sound paranoid but I got my AS results and there is at least 1 unit i was sure i did really well on -- high A or low A at worst -- and i got a B. Normally i don't think about these things much but with this i cant help thinking there might have been a mistake somewhere as far as my results go. Does anyone know how careful exam bodies are with these sorts of things. Do they make mistakes often; even a few? What advice would you give me? --212.120.246.239 (talk) 01:28, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Mistakes do happen and it is possible to appeal. Your school/college is best suited to advise you. There was an article on the BBC news website recently on the subject, I'll find the link. --Tango (talk) 01:33, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Found it: [8] --Tango (talk) 01:35, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Have a look here, too, for advice on the appeals process. [9] Dostioffski (talk) 01:38, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks guys this is helping me out quite a bit already. I know you can request photocopies of scripts. Do they charge you for this? This I think is best suited for my situation because if anything has gone wrong i think it may be not that my paper was marked inaccurately but that somehow i may have just been given the wrong grade even though they may have, for example, marked my paper at 95%. Is this a possible/likely occurence? --212.120.246.239 (talk) 02:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

The BBC article I linked to says: "Your school can request photocopies of exam scripts, or actual scripts. It can ask for a clerical check from around £10 and a re-mark from about £35 for A-level." The clerical check would be what you need if they've marked the paper correctly but just written the mark down wrong somewhere along the line. You school is really the best place to ask for advise on this - you'll need to go through them to appeal anyway, I think. --Tango (talk) 02:33, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah i just thought that if a copy of the script was free or at least cheaper than a clerical check then i could just get the copy and check myself which would also give me more piece of mind as with a clerical check i may begin to get paranoid again and wonder whether they may have had the wrong paper somehow. But yeah the school should be able to help me from here on. Thanks --212.120.246.239 (talk) 05:01, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Posting a message online

Recently I asked how I might post a message for free on the internet about a certain website, and in response someone told me my best bet is to create a blog. Well, I don't know how to create a blog and also have no money to buy all that is neccessary. So I ask, is there a cheap or free way to just, well post a message, I mean all I need is to convey one message, it doesn't have to be a blog or even a myspace page, but some kind of warning about this site so a number, if not a lot, of people can see. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.254.47.173 (talk) 04:14, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

A blog is free, no cost. Try http://www.blogger.com/. --Nricardo (talk) 04:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

As I said on answering your query the first time - simply putting something 'online' is a waste of time if you want to get your message heard. The internet is unfathomably large, your one-comment (in whatever form - blog, twitter, webpage etc.) is extremely unlikely to be read by any meaningful amount of people without some form of effort on your behalf. Be that self-promotion of the page through things like digg.com, or be it search-engine optimization. You cannot expect anybody to read your message about this website without doing a fair bit of work - and even then you'll need some luck and some readers who support your cause enough to pass on your message. In short - setup your blog on blogger.com post what you have to say but really it'll be a minor miracle if it's read by anything more than say 1000 (unique) people. ny156uk (talk) 10:14, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Ny156uk is right. Let's maybe try and narrow it down a bit? Are you trying to post a negative review of an existing website? Because there are sites out there for that sort of thing—I am sure there is something like a Yelp for websites. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 12:06, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

As I understand matters from your last posting, you don't like the content on this site (although it's not porn or politics), you've tried telling them they should change it and they've not been helpful, and you now want somewhere you can post a message - for free - that lots of people will see, warning people not to go there because it's not very nice. Have you considered that doing so will be excellent free publicity for them, and the more successful you are in telling people what a horrible site it it, the more people will go and look at it for themselves? Karenjc 21:38, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Searching for the name of a certain stock broker or his bank

Ok, this is the first time I am using this here, I hope some knows the answers. Several years or so (I think before the 1997 Asian Financial Crisis), there was an English bank that went bankrupt due to the actions of one of their stock brokers in Asia. But I forgot his name as well as that of his bank. Does anyone still remember or has how to find the WP article on this? Zara1709 (talk) 06:27, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

You're probably thinking of Nick Leeson and Barings Bank. If not, try List of trading losses. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:40, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Guessing peoples' heights

How can you guess the height of other people by going on your own height when the difference is more than a couple of inches? For example, I'm 5'6" so what would roughly be the height of someone whose shoulder is level with my chin? Similarly, what would the height be of someone whose chin is level with my shoulder? --124.254.77.148 (talk) 08:47, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Surely this will depend on each individual and yourself? Some people seem to have small necks, some very long, some people have 'tall' heads some people have 'round' heads. ny156uk (talk) 10:03, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

If this is of continuing interest to you, you might use a mirror and measure reference points (like the height of your own shoulder, nose, top of ear). Then you could more easily guess the height of someone whose head comes to your nose, say. Another option is to hang around places like 7-11, where they have heights posted by the door (to aid in descriptions of robbers); take a guess at someone's height, then use the posted heights to give yourself feedback on how you're doing. Your brain learns well through effort and feedback. In an analogous situation, railroads have used speed guns and reinforcement via one-dollar bets to train classification yard crews in accurately estimating the speed of freight cars coming off a hump. (The purpose is to prevent damage to freight caused by cars moving too fast.) — OtherDave (talk) 14:00, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

It just occurred to me that those heights by the door probably have the side effect of making clerks good at estimating people's height, which is probably more valuable than trying to remember to check the crook's height in a scary situation as he runs out the door. --Sean 17:47, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Um, I'm pretty sure those heights by the door usually have cameras trained on them. Nobody's expecting a minimum-wage clerk to do anything other than hand over the money. I doubt clerks are any good at judging heights, incidentally; I've worked at places with heights by the door but you know, I had other things to do other than say, "Gee, that fellow is roughly around 6 feet tall, like most fellows..." --98.217.8.46 (talk) 02:37, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Harassment question

Could a person go to jail for friend requesting another person on facebook after the other person had many times rejected him since that's harassment? Or would they not go to jail since trying to be friends with a person on facebook isn't the same as trying to be friends with him in real life? --75.35.80.226 (talk) 12:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Could they go to jail? Probably not. For one thing, the level of "harassment" is pretty minimal. For another, Facebook has built into it easy-to-use tools to make it easy to designate people who are absolutely banned from seeing you are on there at all, much less requesting to be your friend. I think any reasonable law enforcement agency or judge would see an attempt to get someone arrested just for repeated attempts at "friending" them as being entirely frivolous and without merit. I think complaining that somebody was trying to "friend" you on Facebook is sort of like complaining (legally) about someone editing your pages on a Wiki in a way you don't like (where the entire point is to make it easy for people to edit it)—the entire point of Facebook is to make it easy for people to try and "friend" each other, there isn't a gun to your head to participate, and it's easy to adjust the privacy options. (But this is not legal advice, and I am not a lawyer.) --98.217.8.46 (talk) 12:49, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Unless the person sending the friend requests happened to be under a strict restraining order. That might be a different situation. But without special circumstances? I really can't see that happening... Which doesn't mean that it wouldn't be the type of behavior generally associated with assholes, mind you. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 13:02, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

2008 South Ossetia war

The reasons behind the war is still not clear to me. Who should be actually blamed - Russia or Georgia? Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 14:19, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

The article you linked (along with Timeline of the 2008 South Ossetia war) seems to be fairly clear on the broad outline of events: South Ossetia is a de jure region of Georgia which has been de facto independent (but internationally unrecognized), and under Russia's influence and protection, for the past 16 years. This August, after a week of low-level fighting between the Georgian army and South Ossetians (it's not clear what started that), Georgia (claiming provocation) launched a full-scale attack on South Ossetia in an apparent attempt to regain control over the region. It is still unclear to me why Georgia chose to do this, as to no-one's surprise Russia responded forcibly in defence of its protectorate, and quickly achieved total victory. Algebraist 14:35, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

As for blame, it seems fairly clear that Russia did not start the fighting (I suppose it might have provoked Georgia through Ossetian clients, but I've seen nothing suggesting this). The question is then whether Russia was justified in intervening militarily in support of a breakaway region of another sovereign state. It used to be an established principle of international law that a state's rights to do whatever it wished inside its internationally recognized borders are sacrosanct, but this principle has been increasingly torn up in recent years: parallels include the 1999 NATO bombing of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (in support of Kosovan independence) and India's intervention in the Bangladesh Liberation War. Algebraist 14:43, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I think Russia and Georgia had some kind of treaty regarding South Ossetia which Georgia apparently violated. How that justifies Russia invading the rest of Georgia, I don't know - I think that's why Russia's actions have been frequently described as "disproportionate". They were arguably justified in acting, but not to such an extent. --Tango (talk) 17:28, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it's pretty well established that once you're at war with someone, you're entitled to attack whatever parts of their country you feel like (for example, see the aforementioned Nato bombing of Yugoslavia; Nato could have acted by actually moving into Kosovo, but did not). Of course, actions you're legally entitled to perform can still be disproportionate and unreasonable. Algebraist 18:32, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

No, international law still dictates what and where you can attack - and with how much force. See the Geneva Conventions for the main documents. Now actually enforcing international law is another story. Rmhermen (talk) 20:38, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I may be wrong (and I certainly haven't read the conventions; please correct me if it's in there), but I don't think they have anything to say denying a belligerent the right to attack its enemy's armed forces because of which part of the enemy's country the said forces are in. Of course there's the separate matter of attacks on civilians and such. Algebraist 20:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

But you can't just declare war on a country because you feel like it. I'm not sure if that's a matter of international law or just diplomatic relations, but you need a good reason for going to war before the international community will let you get away with it. Moving troops into a region of your own country would not usually be considered an act of war. --Tango (talk) 20:59, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I attempted to explain in my second post above. Algebraist 21:04, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

The role of the "publisher" at an American newspaper

What does the "publisher" of an American newspaper do? British newspapers don't have anyone with this job title. Is he the CEO (or perhaps chief operating officer would be more accurate?), in charge of running the non-editorial aspects of the operations, or does he have an editorial role. Luwilt (talk) 14:28, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

The publisher is in charge of all operations of a newspaper, both the editorial and non-editorial side. He or she is in essence the CEO of the newspaper. He spends a lot of time going to functions as the representative of the newspaper, for instance. He may also allocate budgets to and set goals for each of the departments. If he has a role in the editorial side, it's mainly to determine what the position of the newspaper is in its editorials, e.g., liberal or conservative. The day-to-day operations of the editorial side are left to the editor in chief and managing editor. Which raises a question -- who does this in the UK? -- Mwalcoff (talk) 14:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Rupert Murdoch does at The Sun and News of the World (though he claims he has no editorial input at The Times), via his publishing group, News International. Dostioffski (talk) 17:57, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

At some U.S. newspapers it seems as if the editorial staff is fairly liberal in their political views, but every four years the publisher comes down to the newsroom and writes an editorial endorsing the Republican candidate for president. The Chicago Tribune has never, to my knowledge, endorsed a Democrat for president, but is often highly critical of republican incumbents and candidates. Edison (talk) 15:04, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

That may just be because they don't like politicians. Rmhermen (talk) 17:55, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

snails

I'd like some information on keeping snails as pets. I can only find info on breeding them on eat on the internet. What should I feed them and how should they be kept? 79.75.155.198 (talk) 17:28, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Googling for "pet snail" found, as the top result, www.petsnails.co.uk which seems to have lots of useful information. You'll get your answers much quicker if you try looking for them yourself before asking here - using google is really easy, try it! --Tango (talk) 17:52, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd also add that there are many different types of snails. What, exactly, you should feed them will vary based on which type of snail it is. (Although there will certainly be some commonalities.) -- 128.104.112.147 (talk) 18:41, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

At least some snails will happily subsist on a combination of algae and commercial goldfish food; we've been keeping some for years and years and they grow well and breed prodigiously. It's very funny to see a snail moving along upside-down just under water, gliding along on the surface tension as it chomps on a flake of goldfish food.

Atlant (talk) 18:34, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Radio-controlled helicopter

If I held onto the bottom of a Radio-controlled helicopter, would it be powerful enough to lift me off the ground? 78.147.2.84 (talk) 18:39, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

While I suppose you could wire up a regular helicopter (which is certainly powerful enough) to be radio-controlled, I don't think any of the things commonly called radio-controlled helicopters are remotely powerful enough to lift any human beyond a young baby. The article you linked refers to models which can lift 10 pounds. Algebraist 18:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

What weight are you? Ten pounds is a little heavier than an average newborn. Perhaps you could use lots of helicopters :-) 78.150.238.131 (talk) 18:59, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the greatest advantage of using multiple radio controlled helicopters is that the accident that results when the choppers inevitably collide is likely to be all that more horrible and bloody. If you're going to do something incredibly stupid, you may as well ensure that it'll go down in history as one of those globally known "Holy crap, what was that idiot thinking?! What did he think was going to happen?" kind of things. I think that'd definitely qualify. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 05:15, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm .... holding a rapidly rotating blade powered by a nitro-fueled engine above your head ... what could possbly go wrong ? I know Lawnchair Larry said "a man can't just sit around", but this definitely sounds like Darwin award material. Gandalf61 (talk) 12:52, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure if we should be encouraging the OP to do this. You might hurt yourself. Cyanoa Crylate (talk) 13:25, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

What I said. Just to be crystal clear, my response was definitely not intended to be encouraging - it was meant to discourage this dangerous activity ! Gandalf61 (talk) 13:47, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

And make sure you do it at the Olympics to get kicked out. Matt Deres (talk) 13:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

The Yamaha RMAX, the largest RC-only (as opposed to, say, a jury-rigged RC Apache) helicopter I'm aware of, carries a payload of about 30 kg. Not enough for an adult, but enough for a midsized child and significantly more than the 5 kg referenced above. — Lomn 14:32, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

If you can find Ernst Stavro Blofeld, he may be able to help you with the RC helicopter thing like he did for another gent here.

Atlant (talk) 18:27, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Name database used by TV shows

In one of the Simpsons DVD commentaries, the participants mention that whenever they name a new fictional character, they are supposed to consult some sort of database that contains the names of every person in the United States. They can only use the name for their character if there are no matches, or if the name is sufficiently common that it can't be linked to one specific person. (One time when they didn't check was when they used the name "Armin Tamzarian" for the episode "The Principal and the Pauper", although they never got in any serious trouble for it.)

Anyway, does anyone know what the name of this database is called? And does anyone know more about this fictional name matching process in general? Zagalejo^^^ 19:19, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

The U.S. Census maintains a searchable name database sampled from 7.2 million people. This might be a (simplified) example of what they do. Though it doesn't identify individuals, it does give estimates of prevalence. The compilers note that "The fact that a name doesn't appear... does not mean that it is non existent, only that it is reasonably rare." Presumably The Simpsons producers' legal counsel recommends they carry out name checks, lest they make they fall victim to the same unfortunate (and expensive) co-incidence detailed here. Dostioffski (talk) 20:43, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Interesting link. Thanks! Zagalejo^^^ 22:40, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Note that I don't think all the examples there can necessarily be said to be co-incidences. Some of them seem to be. Other one's may not be. Nil Einne (talk) 13:47, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I remember reading a British novel where a note at the front not only said that all the characters were fictional but also that they were "placenamed", i.e. every surname in the book was the name of a town, so no one would think it must be related to a real person.

Of course there are also cases where a real person's name is deliberately written into a story as the name of a fictional character. The author might use a friend's name; or the publisher might hold a contest and the winner's name is used, that sort of thing; or the author might just think that the name conveys the right feel, as with the most famous instance of this, James Bond. If the author does this without getting the real person's consent, it can mean trouble; Douglas Adams made this mistake in one of his best-known works, and the name had to be changed after the original broadcast. --Anonymous, 04:15 UTC, August 18, 2008.

I have also read -- and it was many years ago, so cannot cite source -- that one specific industry, perhaps movies, takes the opposite tack: they identify the name they want to use, then check to see if a person of that name is readily located. If so, a small honorarium and signature on a release document allows them to claim official permission to use a name.

I have no idea if this still holds, but thought it amusing at the time. --Danh, 70.59.119.73 (talk) 03:06, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Geographic distribution of WP contributors

Is there a page or website where I can see statistics relating to the geographical distribution of Wikipedia contributors? i.e. how many percent of contributors are from North America, Europe, etc... Thanks. Acceptable (talk) 19:27, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Someone might have compiled such statistics, but since (for logged-in users) the only available data (barring IP addresses, which are available to the Foundation but I don't think they'd use them for this) are Wikipedian's self-descriptions, which are incomplete and unreliable. FWIW, I'm in Europe (and you can believe that or not as you choose). Algebraist 20:12, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Edits by project and country of origin might help. Dostioffski (talk) 21:08, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

So the Foundation does do that. I could have sworn that was against the Privacy policy. I suppose it gets by because it's not personally identifiable. Algebraist 21:16, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

However, that data is from 2006. The current privacy policy may be very different that what we had back then. 79.75.155.198 (talk) 21:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Though there's really no possible individual harm from those sorts of impersonal statistics, where the lowest possible of information is around 1000 edits from an entire country. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 21:50, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

How interesting:

• More edits to the Spanish version come from the Netherlands than from Mexico or most South American countries. In fact Netherlands is right up there in terms of ranking in a number of the languages (French, Polish, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Swedish, Finnish, Russian, Hebrew, Czech, Norwegian, Romanian, Korean, Chinese).

• Australians apparently contribute a lower proportion of edits to English WP (4.4%) than we do to Polish WP (4.5%), and we don’t rate at all in any other languages. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:28, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Can somebody explain to me why the heck the Dutch are the second biggest contributors to the Swedish version? Clarityfiend (talk) 23:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I Think I may have worked out why the Dutch appear to contribute so significantly to multiple projects. A lot of bots, particularly the anti-vandal ones, operate from the toolserver, which (at that time) happened to be hosted by Kennisnet in Amsterdam. I bet it is those edits that skew the statistics. Dostioffski (talk) 23:23, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

That's a good theory - and I bet it's right. But Swedish Wikipedia accounts for only 1.9% of all Wikipedia edits - and the Dutch contribution is only 13.8% of that. So this anomalous effect is only a quarter of a percent of all Wikipedia editing. There are about 140,000 edits per day - so about 300 edits per day are by Dutch people editing Swedish articles. It would only take a very small number of enthusiastic Swedish-speaking Wikipedians living in the Netherlands to cause that kind of a 'blip'. SteveBaker (talk) 23:37, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Since the location is determined from the IP address, it is likely that there are uncertainties and even errors in the location data. For example, a multinational ISP might provide public IP addresses from the same pool to more than one country. The Wikipedia page only refers to "a publically available geolocation database" - anyone know more details? 84.239.160.166 (talk) 05:43, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Ditto

In the article on the Pokemon Ditto it says "Ditto is able to rearrange its cellular structure into anything at will". Now, I was under the impression that a Ditto could only transform into another Pokemon of similar size or a mini-version of a large Pokemon. Which is it? Can a Ditto become anything, like water, a dog, fireworks etc or only another Pokemon? Cyanoa Crylate (talk) 20:49, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Pokemon are fictional. I suggest you read up on you pokemons at a pokemon fan site. 89.242.89.237 (talk) 22:12, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Ditto —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.227.106 (talk) 00:04, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

What a crappy suggestion. It's a perfectly valid Ref Desk question; it's not as if we don't deal with other questions about fiction all the time. (Not that I personally know a lot or even care about Pokémon, but that's neither here nor there.) -- Captain Disdain (talk) 09:28, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree, it's a fair question. It's not one the kind of people that hang out here are likely to be much help with, but we can give it a shot. --Tango (talk) 01:50, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

My resident pokemon expert says it can become any pokemon of any size. They also think it may have tried to turn into human members of Team Rocket in the cartoon, but is unsure. 217.42.157.143 (talk) 11:11, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I think I remember ditto turning into humans in the anime but they still had those dot eyes that ditto has. --124.254.77.148 (talk) 11:46, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Hairstyle check

What is the best way to see what hairstyle suits one's face best? Will I have to learn some image editing software in order to do that taking the picture of the face and putting in several hairstyles or is there any other easy technique to visualize it from all directions in an easily accessible way? Also, where can I get several hairstyle samples for men? Thanks. - DSachan (talk) 22:11, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Hairstyle has a long list of male and female styles. Visualising an alternative style on your head is technologically possible - but it's going to be a LOT more work than learning some image editing software! SteveBaker (talk) 23:23, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I think there are tools available online that will show you what you look like with different hairstyles (after you upload a photo). Try googling for one. --Tango (talk) 23:46, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

It's reasonably do-able to take a photo of someone's face - figure out where the features are - from that, figure out how it's rotated - then render hair over the top of the photo at the appropriate orientation. Do-able - but not easy. There may well be sites out there that either completely automate this - or which provide a GUI to let you do it yourself fairly easily. But the OP wants to be able to visualise it from a bunch of different directions - like maybe have a video of your head slowly rotating with that hair style in place of your own. That's a VASTLY harder thing to do ("Trust me - I'm a computer graphics professional!") - I'd be very surprised to find something like that just lying around on the web. I suspect that the only way to do this is to get your head scanned in a big expensive scanner - and to render the hair onto it from carefully captured 3D face position data. Either way - it's not going to happen anytime soon. SteveBaker (talk) 00:19, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Women are more likely to do this than men -- take a photo of a hairstyle that appeals to you (e.g., from a magazine) and bring it to your stylist, or to a new one you're considering. If you have confidence in the stylist, he or she can give you a more professional opinion. OtherDave (talk) 21:28, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Madrid or Barcelona

I intend to travel to Spain. Which city to visit, Madrid or Barcelona. I am interesting about painting-museums. Which is the positive and negative of each of the above cities. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.103.151.18 (talk) 23:33, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Try a travel agent. The reference desk is intended for factual questions, not opinions. --Tango (talk) 23:44, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

We have often answered such questions before. As for museums Madrid of course has the important Prado (and others listed in Category:Museums in Madrid). Rmhermen (talk) 23:49, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Try Wikitravel for information, Madrid vs Barcelona. Dostioffski (talk) 23:53, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I can't answer the question, but as an aside, if you choose Barcelona, then beware pickpockets! Mine was picked but had a dummy wallet in place and it was that that was taken!--89.168.138.138 (talk) 07:02, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I visited Barcelona this year and took in many of the museums. Barcelona has the Joan Miro Museum, Picasso Museum, NMAC (National Musuem of Art de Catalunya), Museum of Modern Art and many others. I'm sure most cities do them but I got myself an 'Articket' and for a one off payment I got access to 7 of the main museums for free and you can go as many times as you like within a 6 month period. I had no trouble with pick-pockets but then I was extra-careful as had heard about it being a potential issue. Madrid is supposed to be wonderful too though, i'd say read up on them in the links above and take your pick - i'm sure either would be wonderful to visit. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 07:54, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I love Barcelona. The culture there isn't in museusm, but in the city at large. You'll have to walk around and explore the place—be sure to hit the hotspots (la Sagrada Família, Park Güell, etc) but also just get out into the city. Wonderful place. Plasticup ^T/C 11:49, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

August 18

Olympic Medals in multiple sports

I would like to know who has won (Summer) Olympic medals in different sports. So far I have Paulo Radmilovic (Swimming and waterpolo) and Carl Schuhmann (gymnastics and wrestling). All the others I am aware of have won multiple Winter titles or one Summer and one Winter title. Are there any more (different events in the same sport doesn't count)? Dostioffski (talk) 03:21, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

List of multiple Olympic medalists would be a good place to start, though many of them are multiple medal winners in the same sport. - Eron^Talk 03:25, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

What about someone like Carl Lewis who won both running events and long jump, rather different events both classed under athletics? Rmhermen (talk) 03:32, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

On Sunday Rebecca Romero won a cycling gold to add to her rowing silver. Making her only the second woman to win Olympic medals at different sports the other is Roswitha Krause - X201 (talk) 11:31, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Excellent. That is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks. Dostioffski (talk) 16:52, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Only if you just count summer sports. Both Clara Hughes and Christa Luding have won Olympic medals in both cycling and speed skating. - Eron^Talk 12:32, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I know, but the OP stated that they were only interested in the Summer Games. - X201 (talk) 12:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Time

1 I have heard it said that the word time is the most common word in the english language. surely it is more likely to be, a or the or and? 2 Do we cont years for the birth of Jesus or his death? 3 what was the years before Jesus was born? how did they count it and what was thier starting point? Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 11:25, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

1. Regarding your first question, I remember from reading the Guinness Book years ago that "the" is the most common in written English, and "I" is the most common in spoken English. 2. As AD stands for Anno Domini or After Death, it is the years after his death. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sandman30s (talk • contribs)

First, I would want to see a reliable source; this source says that 'the' is the most commonly used word in both spoken and written English. Second, years are counted from the birth of Jesus, though Bible scholars now think that the birth date was miscalculated by earlier scholars and that he was more probably born between 6 and 4 BC; see our Anno Domini article for more information about this system of dating. "Anno Domini" means, in Latin, "the year of the Lord," and does not mean "after death" or refer to the death of Jesus.Third, there were several different systems of counting dates, including counting from the founding of Rome, counting that refers to specific rulers, and others. I found an interesting discussion of the subject in our Calendar era article. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 11:33, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

According to Lists of words sorted by frequency over on Wiktionary, "time" is one of the top 100 most-used words in found in TV show scripts, in "contemporary fiction" and in Project Gutenberg. Since the text of TV show scripts is mostly colloquial speech and Project Gutenberg represents written English (although they have a lot of very old books there - so it's not entirely representative of MODERN English), certainly it's pretty common.

In the TV show data, "time" is the 75th most common word and "You" is the most common with "I" coming in a close second, followed by "to" and then "the". I think "time" is probably the most common non-personal noun though. In the Guthenberg data for written English, "time" is the 70th most common word and "The" is the most common with "of", "and", "to", "in" and then "I" coming in order after that. In the "contemporary fiction" list, "time" is at 63rd position and "the", "I", "to", "and", "a" and "of" are the most common.

SteveBaker (talk) 12:08, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Re: "time", I recall seeing on a game show that "time" is currently the most frequently used noun in the English language...I believe that the source cited was the OED, but my memory's failing me. I think the game show might have been Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?, but there also I'm unsure. Still, that may be where your question arose from, and certainly restricting it to nouns is the only way I can envision a word like "time" ever beating a word like "the" in a "most-often used" contest. Jwrosenzweig (talk) 19:15, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Jwrosenzweig is right. According to Most_common_words_in_English#Nouns, time is the most commonly used noun. The article also mentions the most commonly used words of other parts of speech.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 20:15, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

P.A.R.T.why? because we can

Lets say I became a millionaire overnight via inheritance or the lottery. I now have the abbility to go to university, but also have no need to now, as I dont need to get a good job or work atall ever again. However, I would like to experience the University experience, ie drinking 7 nights a week, parties, drugs women etc. Which would be the best university in the world to go to? Not for accademics, but just for the wild parties? Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 11:56, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Do a Google search for Playboy's best party schools. --Endless Dan 12:05, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

These days, being a millionaire doesn't allow you to give up on work. If you invested your $1,000,000 capital - you might maybe get a reliable/safe return of around 5% - which is $50,000 a year. That's enough to give up on work - but not to live a really great lifestyle at the same time. You can't even afford to go to most US Universities on that - ;et alone have a nice sports car and other stuff you'd need! Worse still, gradually, inflation will eat away at that and in 20 years time, you'd be living close to the poverty line. If you just decided to live a good life on (say) $100,000 a year - you're going to run out of money and be back to work in 10 years. You really need at leat ten millions to really be safe from work for the rest of your life.

But to answer the question directly - why would a university be the place for that kind of lifestyle? Sure there are parties - but people actually do work there too! If you really have money to burn then you need to set up a nice house with a pool and other party accessories somewhere in the south of France - and wait for the hangers-on to start appearing!

SteveBaker (talk) 12:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Even with inflation running at 5% it would take around 45 years to reduce 1 million down to the equivilent of around 100,000 (in today's terms) which would still be a very sizeable lump-sum to have in the bank. That is unless my brain isn't work (it could be - holiday mode you see!) - My basis for the calculation is...1m less 5% equals 950k, less 5% = 902,500, less 5% = 857,375 (etc. etc. - down to 104,673.95 in year 45). I'm potentially compounding incorrectly though, but either way 1m is easily enough to use as a nest-egg to secure a reasonably comfortable life for you - though realistically you'd expect to need to maintain a job - even if it didn't require you to earn much, just enough to offset losses in your nest-egg (keeping £1m rising inline with inflation is worthless if you never do anything with the money itself in my eyes). 194.221.133.226 (talk) 12:57, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

You seem to have forgotten to take into account actually spending any money... Having the money in the bank isn't enough, you need to be able to spend it, which will reduce it's value. The usual way of living off a lump sum is by spending the interest, which is what SteveBaker was talking about. You can't spend all the interest, though, since you need to leave enough in the bank to account for inflation so that real value of the interest each year is constant. --Tango (talk) 17:29, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with SteveBaker (as usual). If you want a crazy party lifestyle, just move to a big city with a big night club scene. You'll find universities pretty disappointing on the whole for that, even the "party schools" are still "schools". If all you want is a party, just do that—you don't have to pay tuition, and you don't actually have to go to class and get grades and all of the other things that universities make you do (if you really part 7 nights a week at university, you will not be there very long). --98.217.8.46 (talk) 13:08, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

What grades to you have? Cause that may aphect how to get in there - I think Oxford and Cambridge are pretty happening, but I don't think you can bribe your way in there any more... Bradley10 (talk) 16:42, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

People at top universities generally work very hard - that doesn't leave much time for parties. If you want to party, you need to be at a pretty poor university academically. --Tango (talk) 17:30, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Seriously if you wanted to waste a million on just good times, there is a simple solution to all of this: hookers & blow. --Endless Dan 17:43, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Before the US News rankings stopped ranking the "best party schools", University of Florida was atop the list. But watch out, there is more to college than drinking. Some people even claim to have learned some things there... and enjoyed it. Plasticup ^T/C 18:15, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

By the way, how does Uni work in the states where the drinking age is older than most students? In the UK, many students go to bars and clubs most Friday and Saturday nights (and the rest of the week in some cases!), do US students just stay in and drink? --Tango (talk) 21:17, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

In my college experience in the US—yes, you stay in and drink, or, more specifically, you have parties where someone over 21 buys the liquor. You don't go to bars, generally speaking, though there are usually some places that are known for not checking IDs (though the penalty for that can be quite high for the establishment). You can still go to clubs and bars, of course, though you might not always have an easy time getting alcohol there (some places, if you order, say, three drinks, require you to produce three 21+ IDs, which is somewhat of a logistical nightmare even if you are all of age!). Unsurprisingly, binge drinking and other alcohol abuse is quite common in such situations—in my opinion it's pretty counterproductive to have a drinking age so much higher than standard university admission age. It doesn't produce a safer environment for anyone—on the contrary, it has been clearly demonstrated again and again that it promotes a totally irresponsible attitude toward alcohol. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 22:19, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Plenty of UK students are irresponsible with alcohol as well, we just do it public! I think those that are going to be irresponsible are going to do it regardless of the drinking age, so having a high drinking age is just a nuisance for those of us that are responsible. --Tango (talk) 01:47, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Crown Land in Canada

I was very interested by the map in the article on American Federal lands. Does anyone know if similar map data is freely available for Canada that could be incorporated in the article on crown land? The article says 89% of Canada's land is crown land, where does this data come from and is there further data on type of use of this land (military, park etc)? On a related note, I've heard that a lot of Canadian government data is copyrighted, unlike works of the American government. Is that true? How does that impact Wikipedia on issues like this? I take it charts or maps from statscan or other agencies can't just be ripped off and inserted? TastyCakes (talk) 12:22, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Canadian government work is copyrighted for 50 ears from its creation(I think) Anonymous101 (talk) 14:22, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

That is true - in Canada: [10]. However since the Wikipedia servers are located in the US, I believe a more restrictive set of rules apply: [11]. This stuff is pretty hard to follow :( Franamax (talk) 21:38, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

But surely mapping information (GIS data or whatever) doesn't fall under this copyright? TastyCakes (talk) 17:10, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Formica

Could anyone give me instructions on how to bend formica over a 11/2" bullnose, MDF countertop?```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.85.203.191 (talk) 16:37, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

There's a forum discussion here about bending Formica over countertops, and some contributors to it claim a certain expertise in the field, but I'm afraid it's rather discouraging to the amateur bender. Karenjc 20:15, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Formica is made with melamine resin - that is a "thermosetting plastic" - which means that you heat it, form it into some kind of shape and let it cool - BUT once you've done that, you can't heat it up and do it again because it'll burn before it reaches a high enough temperature to melt. The melamine in a sheet of formica has already taken on it's permenant (flat) form. So you can't just heat the stuff and bend it around. I think the answer is "You can't do that". SteveBaker (talk) 00:08, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

What size of object can a tapir pick up with his nose?

This is also to bear in mind that there are four species and they have different noses. Bradley10 (talk) 16:40, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Are you looking for a maximum size or a minimum size? By weight or volume? Plasticup ^T/C 18:09, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Moer specifically: - can a tapir pick things up with his nose? - if so, what sort of things? Bradley10 (talk) 09:50, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Their noses are flexible; but are they prehensile? You might check through the animals on this list of pages, as there are pages on prehensile tails and prehensile feet, but not noses. (And this might better be asked on the Science reference desk; would you like to relocate it from here? — simultaneous postings on multiple RDs is otherwise discouraged.) -- Deborahjay (talk) 13:47, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Effects on humans

What is /are the effects on humans breathing castor oil fumes. How long can you do it for before becoming ill--79.76.158.69 (talk) 16:44, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

According to the MSDS, inhalation is deemed "slightly hazardous" though the effects of chronic exposure is not known. Inhalation of castor oil droplets can result in a form of pneumonia. [12] If you intend to be in a position where you are inhaling fumes for a significant amount of time, you should check with a doctor, as we are unable to give medical advice here. Dostioffski (talk) 17:22, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I remember reading that fumes from castor oil, used to lubricate early aircraft engines, gave the pilots diarrhea. 81.187.153.189 (talk) 00:59, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I have a difficult time imagining that enough could find it's way into your digestive tract that way to have a significant effect. Perhaps the stress caused by the fear of the vaporized castor oil exploding caused the diarrhea. StuRat (talk) 13:41, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Ages ago, when I visited the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome, I'm pretty sure the story about the effects of castor oil lubrication on pilots was a standard part of the announcer's "patter".

Atlant (talk) 18:14, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Name of the characters having oversized heads

I'm trying to add a link to the Gigantes y cabezudos article to give some perspective. What is the name of the characters having oversized heads, such as those that walk in the New Orleans Mardi Gras parade? Also, what articles does Wikipedia have that relate to humans wearing costumes that have oversized heads. Mascot sort of is on the right track. Thanks. Suntag (talk) 19:01, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I know the celebrations of San Fermín have something like what you're talking about, called caravinagres. If you can read Spanish, I found this article on Spanish Wikipedia that has a lot of what you're looking for.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 21:15, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

emergency situation

If you are on a major highway such as the M25 London and you are in a traffic jam, bumper to bumper and are not moving atall. You have diarea. What is the solution? you cant get out of your car, there is no exit for another mile or two and it could take hours to get there any way. i am sure someone has been in this situation. what do you do? shit yourself?

If you're really not moving at all, then you could get out and go down the other side of the bank at the edge (of course, sod's law dictates traffic will immeadiately start moving again). If there's minimal movement, then you could move over to the hard shoulder and get out (people might not be too inclined to let you change lines if you're not in the inside line, but you could wind down your window and explain your trying to get to the hard shoulder, or you could put your hazard lights on and people should get the picture). --Tango (talk) 21:50, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I have never been in that situation but, If you are truly stuck, then you will, ipso facto, have to shit yourself. I think the best thing you could do is: grab some piece of clothing; rip it into strips if possible; look for some type of plastic bag (most people have some bag in their car); shift your body sideways so one cheek is just on the edge of the seat and the rest of you is over the footwell, place the bag underneath with as tight a seal as you can (this is a rather repulsive conversation) do what you need to do; then clean up as best you can with the cloth; put the soiled cloth in the bag, hold your nose and deal until you can find a place of safety.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 21:57, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Are there bushes near the M25? If so go there and take a shit. Otherwise, open the car door on the shoulder side and squat there in the partial shelter of the door and take a shit.(added) Of course, you would be likely subject to arrest, if caught, for public indecency, so this course of action is to be avoided if possible. Under common law there is the "defense of necessity," but we never give legal advice on Wikipedia. If this is a serious concern, you might purchase some "astronaut diapers." [13]. Will you find them useful? Depends. Edison (talk) 05:38, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I would be kind of shocked (if not necessarily surprised) to hear someone getting prosecuted for having to take an emergency dump. I mean, if you got to go, you got to go, unpleasant as it might be. Of course, you would probably be expected to still take as many necessary precautions as possible, like pulling over, putting your hazard lights on, etc. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 05:49, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

If someone had the same "emergency" every day on the way to work, or if he had to relieve himself every evening after downing some ale at the pub, the authorities would probably not be understanding. "Public nuisance, indecent exposure," etc. Edison (talk) 05:56, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the opportunity to mention one of my favourite links.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:34, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I have to say - that site has some of the worst "photoshopped" images I've EVER seen! So VERY badly done. Wow. SteveBaker (talk) 03:09, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

The next version needs to include a seat belt, so you can crap as the truck is being driven. Just don't forget the bag, or the road will end up with more than just white and yellow lines. :-) StuRat (talk) 13:29, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I wonder if one of those Japanese automobile manufacturers will include one of their Japanese toilets in one of their cars in the future. Apparently, they've already developed an in-car toilet according to this Reuters article. And the British too accordinng to this BBC link. 132.206.22.14 (talk) 18:12, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

islamic party

if alcahol is illegal in islamic countries, what do they do on a saturday night? do they go to the pub and drink water or juice? do they have pubs? do they have night clubs? in these night clubs, if they have em, what do they sell at the bar? what is thier form of release if not booze. I have heard that in these countries one can go to the american embassy or british embassy and drink, how does this coincide with thier prohibition laws, can local people go and drink there too? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.3.146.56 (talk) 21:47, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Contrary to popular opinion, it is possible to have a good time without drinking. I don't know what Islamic entertainment is like, but I don't think it involves bars and clubs. At least some Islamic countries do allow the sale of alcohol, but only to non-Muslims, you have to show your passport when you purchase it. --Tango (talk) 21:53, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

It's even possible to get through a weekend in the United States as a student without drinking. Though other students might find that incredible, antisocial, or frightening. OtherDave (talk) 22:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

There are such things as non-alcoholic beers...I assume they would be perfectly permissible to drink? Lemon martini (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 00:15, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Common things include playing music and dancing, gossiping, drinking lots of sugary beverages, smoking (tobacco and more, cigarrettes, hookahs, etc.). There are still night clubs in the Islamic world, depending on where you go, but there is also a lot of night shopping, stores and restaurants open late, and so on. These are as popular or more. Movies are also very popular. Steewi (talk) 01:21, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

A lot of good answer already. I used to live in Malaysia where alcohol is legal for non-Muslims are resonably easy to purchase (albeit heavily taxed). While night clubs exist and are resonably popular among the youth, pubs & bars aren't so common and definitely are not a significant social phenomenon (not sure what sort of licensing restrictings they face but I don't think thats the primary reason). Movies are of course popular but meeting friends at the local mamak store is probably one of the most significant aspects of night life (well at least in urban areas). Eating in general can probably also be said to be a significant part of social life (and alcohol may be a part of that). Window-shopping/hanging out in shopping complexes is popular obviously (unlike in NZ, they don't close at 6pm on most nights!) and also in night markets (pasar malam). Karaoke has also caught on (and for non-Muslims will generally involve a significant amout of alcohol). There is also stuff like snooker & pool halls (which are virtual lung cancer dens) and recently bowling, archery and other activities cropping up (well this is in the Klang Valley anyway). I personally find the night-life in Malaysia much better then in New Zealand/Auckland. Not that we have a great night-life scene but we do have the pub/bar thing and it's basically one of the only things we have for night-life other then night clubs (well movies but they're insanely expensive) that we do have, all of which I find rather boring particularly since I've never liked the taste of alcohol and consider it pointless wasting money on alcopops to get drunk. Note that even in places like Japan or China or South Korea where alcohol isn't usually in short supply and there are no significant prohibitions, the pub/bar thing isn't exactly a major part of their social scene as far as I know. In other words, there is actually a lot you can do beyond pubs and bars, involving alcohol or not and the pub/bar thing isn't a universal social phenomenon. Nil Einne (talk) 13:10, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

double standard

Russia invaded Georgia because of thier repression of the south ossetian people. Georgia quote unquote repressed South Ossetians because they want indepenance. But Russia are/were repressing the Chechnians in the same way, and for the same reasons, they want indepenance. so can someone please explain how the governments involved explain this double standard. Secondly, if a group of people living in thier native lands wish to govern themselves, why are they not allowed to do so, surely if, when South ossetia or Chechnya first said, we want govern ourselves, or there may be war, would it not be more advantagious foe every one involved to give them autonomy, and then have happy neighbours whom one can trade with and thereby boost the economies of both areas? I dont want to start a debate, i just dont understand so if you can please explain this to me i would be greatful thanks a load. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.3.146.56 (talk) 22:01, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

We couldn't possibly have an arti.....BAM! Territorial integrity. And yes, this has resulted in eye-watering hypocrisy over the years. Ossetia vs. Kosovo vs. Chechnya vs. Northern Ireland vs. Biafra vs. Afghanistan vs. Afghanistan. For more info read self determination and nation state. Fribbler (talk) 22:15, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Well it's fairly obvious—the governments in question don't see it as a double-standard. They see them as apples and oranges. I know less about the Ossetia issue than the Chechnya one, but it's clear in that case that the reason Russia doesn't recognize Chechnya's "right to self governance" is the same reason the Union did not let the South secede during the US Civil War—they see Chechnya as part of their territory. For all of the talk of the importance of self-determination, the question of what a legitimate unit of self-determination has never been clear. Should it be defined by territory? By culture? By race? By religion? By values? By laws? By what? I'm not saying I agree with Russia but it's clearly not a clear-cut issue. Questions of sovereignty are always complicated, conflicted, and there is never an unequivocal solution. (Even in the case of self-governance most beloved by Americans, that of their own split from England, is considerably more complicated from a philosophical point of view than is taught in US history books, where it is presented as something both obvious and unblemished.) If New York City said tomorrow that it wanted to be its own country, do you think the US federal government would let it? Not in a million years. (Or, to make the Chechnya comparison more apt, consider the fate of the Hawaiian independence movement). --98.217.8.46 (talk) 22:11, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Russia's invasion of Georgia to stop them repressing South Ossetia does not of itself say anything about whether or not Russia does or would support South Ossetian independence, which is a separate question. They almost certainly wouldn't support it, if the Chechnya experience is anything to go by. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:54, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

They have already stated that they see no way for Georgia's territorial integrity to continue - which means that they either support South Ossetia's independence or that they intend to absorb it (or keep it permanently occupied.) Rmhermen (talk) 00:58, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia has an article titled Hypocrisy which discusses this philosophy of "Do as we say, not as we do." If part of the U.S tries to leave the U.S., the U.S. invades it and kills people until they abandon the notion. If part of the USSR Russia ties to leave, they attack them and kill people until they think better of it. If part of Georgia tries to leave Georgia, then the USSR Russia sends in troops to assist the effort. Edison (talk) 05:34, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

The US has granted independence to areas it controlled, including Cuba and the Philippines, conquered during the Spanish-American War, and Japan, conquered during World War 2. StuRat (talk) 06:02, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Yet somehow the U.S. always winds up with the right to keep military and air bases there with thousands of soldiers[14] , [15] . Perhaps Japan and Germany really like having U.S. bases on their territory. The U.S did not grant Cuba its indendence until they signed a perpetual lease for Gitmo. Cuba certainly does not want a U.S. base on its territory. The U.S. really wants the right to have U.S. bases in Iraq in perpetuity. You can be independent, but occupied. Maybe Russia will let Georgia be independent, but with Russian military bases around the country, with a Gitmo =like agreement that they will stop bombing and leave the elected government in power if the base agreement is signed. Edison (talk) 19:16, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

The similarities with Chechnia are quite good I think except for a change of scale. Chechnia got de facto independence from Russia just like South Ossetia did from Georgia. Russia later invaded Chechnia giving as a reason the terrorism and criminal acts it supported across its borders. Georgia gave similar sorts of reasons for attacking South Ossetia. The difference then comes in that no-one defended Chechnia from Russia but Russia defended South Ossetia from Georgia. Unfortunately they seem to be pushing rather too far with their own agenda and that is definitely something to worry about. Overall I agree with the poster - but if a place really is supporting terrorism shouldn't one do something about it like in Afghanistan? You have to make up you own mind about how peace loving the lot of them are involved in all these countries. Dmcq (talk) 16:45, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Scale may be involved. South Ossetia had a population of 70,000 while Chechnia has 1,100,000. Rmhermen (talk) 17:32, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

TV news archives?

Let's say I was looking for TV news footage of an event from, say, 1979 or so, for a documentary. Where would I look for such a thing? --98.217.8.46 (talk) 22:06, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

If you know the particular station you should try contacting the organization. Some allow you to purchase segments from their archive. Plasticup ^T/C 22:13, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, but surely there is more systematic approach to this other than calling up every possible TV station that was around back then. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 22:24, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't see why there would be. TV stations handle their own archives, I don't know of any central ones. You don't need to call all of them, anyway, just call a couple of the biggest. --Tango (talk) 22:46, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

There is an archive of TV news at the University of Maryland and no doubt others elsewhere. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:36, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, that's the sort of thing I'm looking for. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 03:20, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

If it's a something that would have been covered by national news, you might try contacting the Newseum. They have a substantial archive. — Michael J 02:27, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Mmm, they don't really seem set up for researchers. (Which isn't that surprising, since they appear to be primarily a for-profit gig.) --98.217.8.46 (talk) 03:20, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Just as a note—with Mwalcoff's tip I found the Vanderbilt Television News Archive which looks like it is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks. What a wonderful site—they've even got video clips! --98.217.8.46 (talk) 03:40, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

New Nation

What is the name of the British bloke who set up his own nation in his flat, and had around 20000 people join his country? It was only a few years ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.229.13 (talk) 23:00, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Kingdom of Lovely. --Tango (talk) 23:11, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Weird Telephone Number

When I dialed 1-800-987-0768 all I got was a man saying random numbers that were different every time I called. After he said the numbers, I heard a series of short tones, each with a different pitch. Can anyone tell me what the purpose of that is?

Americanfreedom (talk) 23:33, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

No idea, but you may enjoy our article on numbers stations. -- BenRG (talk) 23:50, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Where did you find the phone number? --Tango (talk) 00:02, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I tried it and it works. I reminds me of when I was a kid, guys would call a Mrs. Nanny and ask if she had any goats for sale, and she'd teach them swear words they had never heard. Edison (talk) 05:26, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Ring ring, hi i am calling from the phone company, if your phone rings in about 2 minutes time do not answer as we are working on the lines and it could be dangerous to our workers. then call back and when they answer scream LOL good fun as a kid —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 09:22, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe someone doing some sort of experiment to see how many people call it, how often, and what if anything, they say? Nil Einne (talk) 12:42, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Didn't anyone bother doing a Google search!?! This page says it's "800-987-0768 sc phone directory" - and lists lots and lots of other similar numbers. That web page has since been deleted (my link is to the Google cache). When I called the 1-800 number, I got 10080015 711 409 3944 - then tones that are the same as you get if you dial (711)409-3944 on your phone - if you wait, I think it connects you to that line. So for sure, the last ten digits are a phone number. Dialling (711)409-3944 got me to a computer modem line of some kind. The 10080015 number seems to increment each time you call 800-987-0768 - although sometimes it skips a number - suggesting that other people are also calling this line.

If I had to guess - I'd say that this is a number your computer dials to get you through to some ISP's dialup service. You'd call the 1-800 number - and it will redirect you to the next free modem line. Why it would speak the number first is unclear - but maybe there is some reason they do that.

SteveBaker (talk) 13:39, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

OK - I think I've cracked it.

Area code 711 (the area code of the phone number I get from calling this weird 1-800 service) isn't a real area code at all, it's reserved for "Telecommunications Relay Services". Those are numbers that allow people with hearing or speech disabilities to place and receive telephone calls using either "TTY" boxes (essentially modems) or by having human operators transcribe voice to TTY and TTY to voice.

So - I think someone with a TTY device calls the 1-800 number, it in turn dials the next available TTY modem on the 711 area code. I suspect the 711 number I got is connected up to a human operator who would call the phone number you want to contact (by sending TTY commands) and read your message to the hearing person on the far end of the line.

SteveBaker (talk) 13:53, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Why bother with something like that though? Isn't it easier just to run a trunk line with a single number to the call centre which has some sort of PABX system and connects you to the next available operator (similar to the way nearly all other call centres work or most ISPs now use only one number for their dialup service and you're automatically connected to a free line)? (I don't know about TTY devices but surely a modem as with you earlier example would never rely on spoken numbers, they'd simply use tones, and there's no reason to say the number for the benefit of humans) Nil Einne (talk) 19:19, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'm sorry we havn't stumbled on some kind of Black-Ops code station - that would be so much more exciting than my very mundane answer - but look at the facts:

1. The 1-800 number speaks an incrementing number followed by a phone number which is always in the 711 area code and which only changes once in a while. Then it dials that exact same number and redirects you to it.
2. The 711 area code is reserved for services for the deaf and uses the TTY interface.
3. Calling one of the numbers that the 1-800 number gives out connects you to something that produces modem tones.

(2) and (3) tell you that this is indeed some kind of a service for the deaf. (1) tells us that it's very likely to be allocating lines from some kind of pool as they are demanded and keeping a count of the number of calls made over some period of time. The only thing we don't know is why it does that.

One reason might be that 711 area code services get charged as long-distance or something. Calling the 1-800 number and then being redirected would avoid users having to pay for the service (which is provided for free to deaf people in the US). Another reason might be that the TTY machines are hard-wired to connect to the 1-800 number.

Why the machine speaks the consecutive incrementing number and then speaks the phone number before it redirects you is the only remaining mystery. To be honest, it's not much of a mystery...perhaps it makes it easier for a human to dial the 1-800 number and verify that it's working OK? Perhaps the machine was not designed for the deaf and originally had some other purpose? The TTY services are really old and are probably horribly under-funded - so I'd bet that this is some elderly system that's been cobbled together rather than being properly engineered.

The TDD/TTY devices are AMAZINGLY crude - they typicaly used acoustically-coupled 50 baud (yes, that's 50...not 56K!) - they use ancient Baudot code (so only uppercase, hardly any punctuation characters and complete and utter incompatibility with any modern ASCII-based equipment!) - and the format is so incompatible with PC modem cards that you can't connect to TDD with an unmodified computer! There is no computerised text-to-speech or speech-to-text system - an actual human operator reads what the deaf person types, listens to the other person's answer and types it into a TTY to send back to the deaf person. The caller has no privacy - and there is tremendous scope for error and misunderstanding. When you consider how amazingly clunky that is - would it really come as any surprise that this 1-800 number wastes all that time speaking the number?

SteveBaker (talk) 20:39, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I did Google search and only came across one result, Yahoo answers. Don't blame me for forgetting the US has the country code 1 :-P Nil Einne (talk) 19:10, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, in this case, the '1' isn't the country code - from most US phones you have to dial a '1' before you call long-distance. To get international, you need to dial 011- then the country code, then the number. But, no - I don't blame you. Actually, the Google hit wasn't what finally cracked the puzzle - it was when I phoned the 1-800 service a few times and listened carefully to what it did - then phoned the 711 number - then did a search on "area code" 711 - then looked up Telecommunications Relay Services here on WP and found that this is how Telecommunications device for the deaf (TDD) is handled here in the USA.

SteveBaker (talk) 20:39, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

The TTY problems are why all the deaf people I've ever met just have mobile phones and communicate using SMSs or use online chat services at home. Steewi (talk) 01:31, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

That's OK to a point - but try cancelling your AOL account using SMS! Getting them to answer the phone normally is just about impossible! SteveBaker (talk) 03:04, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

August 19

Ancient aqueducts still in use

The Roman aqueduct in the Rio Seco valley about 2 km north of Almuñécar

Are any ancient aqueducts still in service? NeonMerlin 01:46, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

• Yup. See Almuñécar. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 03:35, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

You mean this picture on the right, from the page Almuñécar?78.150.168.81 (talk) 13:55, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Anybody know of any abandoned boarded up mental asylums?

Just curious.

Lotsofissues 08:16, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

There are lots. But it depends on what state you are talking about—California or New York or what? Your best bet is to look for a dedicated site on urban exploring as those people catalog that sort of things pretty in-depth. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 10:45, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Starting a fake university, are we? --Nricardo (talk) 10:55, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Is Bush's ranch in Texas boarded up?129.112.109.250 (talk) 18:52, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

The Weird US books [16] discuss places like that, although they never give the exact addresses. Zagalejo^^^ 19:00, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

• Trans-Allegheny Lunatic Asylum in Weston, WV. No longer boarded up, but looks to fit with what you're looking for. DarkAudit (talk) 19:11, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

• Googling for "abandoned mental hospital" is fruitful. [17] is pretty fascinating, for example. And you just missed this one. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 22:02, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

If you wanted to approach it systematically...

1. Pick a state, any state.

2. Google "state institutions" and the name of the state. Usually you can find lots of resources on this. But they are usually state by state (because that's how these sorts of mental health systems worked.) You can usually figure out which ones have been closed (e.g. not operational).

3. Google the names of the closed institutions. You can then usually find out what happened to them.

Even in a big state with a (historically) big mental health system like California, you're only talking about maybe a dozen possible institutions to check out, maximum. There is a lot of info on closed mental hospitals on the web, in part because people doing geneological research are often interested in that kind of information. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 00:07, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Here's your role model in Australia: Sydney College of the Arts now located in Callan Park Lunatic Asylum for the Mentally and Criminally Insane. Be inspired, Julia Rossi (talk) 08:45, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

jungle pie

a south african confectionary, dating from the 60's, does anyone remember them? cosisted of a biscuit centre with layers of "turkish delight" and marshmallow enclosed in chocolate, as i recall, but not entirely sure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bluewaterlad (talk • contribs) 09:14, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

The term produces ZERO google hits (except for an exceptionally terrible band called "Jungle Pie" that seems unrelated). I suspect you've forgotten the correct name for the product. SteveBaker (talk) 13:13, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you're thinking of a moon pie or one of the many varieties of chocolate-coated marshmallow treats? I can't recall anything that contains turkish delight as well as marshmallow and chocolate. (That sounds a somewhat excessive.)--Shantavira|^{feed me} 16:11, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

When it comes to turkish delight, marshmallow and chocolate, the definition of "excessive" seems magically not to apply. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:44, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Wiktionary: excessive: Exceeding the usual bounds of something; extravagant; immoderate. - yep, you have a point there. SteveBaker (talk) 03:01, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

under 18 employment

why is it so hard to get a job in the U.K when your under 18, seriously this is an extract from an email i got

Hi, in reply to your application unfortunately there are no vacanies at the moment and also we only employ 18+. Feel free to re-apply once your 18

, the U.K says it wants to engage in young people more & get them in work and education i highly doubt that. What can i do to improve my chances? any advice or websites CHEERS

With respect, you may want to reconsider your grammar skills as a starter.--89.168.138.138 (talk) 11:17, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

If you are under 18 then it is likely that the best way to improve your chances is to go to college and study, or to apply for an apprenticeship. http://www.delni.gov.uk/ is the department for employment and learning, they should be able to help. As will things such as your local careers advice bureau, or a site such as http://www.jobcentreonline.com/ . Go into the agencies in your local area, discuss with them what type of work you are looking for, how you wish to develop yourself in the future and they will be able to help point you in the right direction. If it is part-time work you're after then shops and restaurants are you best place to start - look out for signs on the doors/in windows of local stores, as often they don't bother to advertise in the paper for weekend/part-time jobs. Another site to look at could be www.careersserviceni.com . Good luck and ignore the grammar comment - as a proof-reader myself I can confidently state that a good 90% of article/document writers have poor grammar (and mine isn't that great either). 194.221.133.226 (talk) 11:26, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

haha true about the grammar thing, what a cheeky git writing that! Good advice very helpful it's part time im after —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.25.221 (talk) 11:31, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Probably the reason that companies don't want to employ people below the age of 18 is that there are child labor laws that could somehow restrict the work that such employees could do - or perhaps restrict the hours they could work. In the UK, the "age of majority" is 18 - below that age, you can't enter into a legally binding contract - so your employer would be unable (for example) to require you to sign employment contracts, non-disclosure agreements and so on. There may be all sorts of other laws relating to "children" - perhaps such as not being allowed to sell tobacco, alcohol. etc. Which of those things is specifically the reason in any specific case is hard to say - and probably varies from industry to industry - but lots of laws are applied differently to children. SteveBaker (talk) 13:09, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Over 16s can certainly work ~full time[18], even at licensed premises, though they can't sell alcohol themselves. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 13:33, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah - but as your link says: "You'll only be able to work for eight hours every day, or a total of 40 hours over the course of a week. You cannot usually work an overnight shift either, but there are some exceptional circumstances where you can.". That may be a major pain for an employer who needs the flexibility to have employees work overtime or to work late at night. In my last job, we worked 9 hours per day and got every alternate Friday off...so we simply couldn't employ 17 year olds because they can't work 9 hour shifts and they can't work 45 hours on the weeks without a Friday off. Suffice to say that if there is plenty of available labor in the area, then it's simply easier for employers not to have to go to special trouble to treat some employees differently. But the inability of under-18's to sign binding contracts is probably enough to dissuade many of them. SteveBaker (talk) 14:16, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I've found that employment and benefits for the 16-18's is constructed so to encourage you to stay within secondary/further education, not a bad thing per se, but does not suit everyone, the government is promoting voc skills courses, practical education, linked to employers, get thy self on thine bike and pedal downth to thine joab cinter, gud luk.Perry-mankster (talk) 09:36, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

What's the furthest back a geneaology is traced on the 'Net and elsewhere?

When my great-aunt died recently, and we put her and a cousin's dates of death on the family tree copy I have, I was inspired to go digging just a bit deeper, out of curiosity. I have one person I knew came over on Ellis Island, another whom I discovered came over from Switzerland in the mid-19th century to American, and though 150 years was pretty good.

Wrong! A search for fun found a number of trees go back well before the year 1000 A.D.! (Can you tell I'm a biginner at this?) Without joining and being able to search much further, I was just curious if anyone knew of ancestry on some of thse boards that went back to the Roman Empire or further.

I know that some Jewish men have tried to trace theirs to the priestly line of Aaron - but is that really reliable? That would be such an amazing family gree to look at! And, I guess it's just out of a weird curiosity that I'm curious about just what's out there, and what one of those would look like. (I know that family Bibles and such are often used before census and other records are availble, but when there wasn't even a church, it would be hard to use those :-) 209.244.30.221 (talk) 12:33, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Descent from Charlemagne (c. 800) is common (while it sounds prestigious, it is so far back that being his descendant is quite common). Most earlier descents are dubious, such as a descent which connects European royalty to Muhammad (c. 600) - some going back to Adam or Odin! Rmhermen (talk) 14:19, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

According to our article on family trees, the largest is that of relations of Confucius. In terms of descent from antiquity - would you believe, Wikipedia has an article on it! As an example, see the conjectural descent of Elizabeth II from the Romans. Warofdreams talk 14:21, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I seem to remember, but can't find on google, an attempt to make genealogy society that would be hard to join. So they went with proven descent from a 15th century peasant. However, once a couple of royal bastard children were identified, it too became easy to join. What is necessary is to find a gateway ancestor that links you to a long and well-established line. Rmhermen (talk) 14:44, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

A great many genealogies in which individuals trace their ancestry back hundreds of years are the product of fantasy and lax rules for what is proof of a relationship. There were also charlatan professional genealogists who would furnish spurious genealogies for a price. If one can find an ancestor descended from royalty or nobility in developed countries with good written documents, then there is the opportunity to "piggyback" on well documented ancestry. This of course neglects "non-paternity events" in the noble ancestry. That said, I have known careful amateur genealogists who have traced their own non-famous ancestors back to the 1700's with pretty good documentation. Edison (talk) 19:10, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

No matter what country your ancestry comes from, the reliability becomes more and more tenuous the further you go back. Having Irish ancestry myself, and both an unusual and historically important surname, I've managed to create a perfectly reasonable genealogy from Irish historical and apocryphal sources which goes back to Noah, with one unfortunate gap between 1600 and the potato famine :) Having a noble line in your ancestry certainly helps, since that is more likely to have been written up and documented at the time (a case in point - my partner's Norrthumbrian reiver ancestry disappears into the mists during the early 1800s; her tenuous connection to a baronial line is traceable to 1300). FWIW, the British Royal Family's ancestry can be traced back to Cerdic of Wessex (d.534), and apocryphally back to Sceaf. Grutness...wha? 01:12, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Not too long ago I worked out that the Queen is my second cousin's great-grandfather's son-in-law's uncle's relative's (*) father-in-law's great-great-great-great-grandfather's 1st cousin 9 times removed. This doesn't quite make me a member of the Royal Family; but I still expect an invitation to a garden party. I could now extend this back to Roman times if I really wanted, I guess. Maybe on a rainy day. (*) - this link isn't yet proven but seems highly likely. -- JackofOz (talk) 04:30, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

To go back to the original question, in the USA and Canada, it is fairly easy to trace your ancestry back to the time your ancestors arrived on the continent. Birth, death, baptismal and mariage records have been researched extensively and are easily available. Since one of the major waves of immigration to America was between the mid 19th Century and World War I, a lot of searches will lead there, like the one the original questioner undertook. However, in areas such as New England or French Canada, where the immigration waves are older, ancestry can be traced back to the early to mid 17th Century. The problem becomes what about ancestors before the crossing? In many places in Europe, these records are poorly preserved before the 19th century. Events like the two World Wars and various revolutions have taken a toll on archives in various regions; a famous example is Paris, where all records were burned during the 1870 Paris Commune. In some areas of Europe, however records for regular folks extend to the late 16th-early 17th century. Earlier than that, most births, deaths, mariages, etc, were not systematically recorded, and when they were, the records have most often been lost or destroyed.

One exception is records of the nobility. Since it was very important, in order to claim being a nobleman, to be able to demonstrate lineage to a distant ancestor, detailed records were kept and are accessible to this day. These can go back to the late Middle Ages (12th century onward). However, this covers somewhere between 1 and 5 % of the population of the time, and most persons who emigrated to North America were definitely not of aristocratic lineage. Many for-profit companies tend to drum up these ancestries, playing on people's vanity and wish to belong to "an ancient and noble family", but the percentage of most people's ancestors that can be traced this way is minimal. For persons whose ancestry comes from Africa, the problems are similar: very little was written down before European colonization in the late 19th century or later, and while records of princely lines were kept dating back to 300 or 400 years earlier, this was usually done orally by griots. Much of the information has been lost, and records that are still extant only affects a small percentage of the population in any case. --Xuxl (talk) 14:23, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

National Vagina Day

Is National Vagina Day and V-Day same? Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 12:58, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

The answer is in the first paragraph of the first article you linked to where it refers to "Nation Vagina Day (V-day)". Terms in brackets like that mean an alternate name for the same thing. DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:28, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Some guys organized a National Penis Day in New Zealand a few years ago (Google it), but it flopped.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 16:21, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I know there ought to be a hilarious pun here, but I can't think of it!--El aprendelenguas (talk) 20:37, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Not to be confused with V-J Day... which now sounds like something dirty. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 00:01, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

if only there were a national BJ day...Perry-mankster (talk) 09:30, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Here you go, Perry. --LarryMac | Talk 11:45, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Or V-E day 195.58.125.43 (talk) 10:53, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

if I marry my aunt do I become my own uncle?

Bradley10 (talk) 13:27, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, you probably wouldn't be allowed to marry your aunt - see for example our articles on Prohibited degree of kinship and Consanguinity. I believe most of the prohibitions on such marriage include both your parents' siblings and their spouses. If you were able to marry, say, the ex-wife of your father's brother, you wouldn't be your own uncle as she would no longer be your aunt once she was no longer married to your father's brother. - Eron^Talk 13:36, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Whether he's allowed to marry his own Aunt depends on whether or not incest is a criminal offence wherever he is, as it varies. Illegal legal advice aside, you would of course be your own Uncle Myself if you married your parent's sister. Unfortunately I must stop writing now, it is making me dizzy.78.150.168.81 (talk) 13:49, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

See this [19] about the law of incest.78.150.168.81 (talk) 13:51, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

There are plenty of twisted relationships that are legal. Your aunt doesn't cease to be your aunt if (for example) your father's brother dies while he's married to her. Then there is no blood line or legal obstacle to marrying your aunt. But that doesn't make you become your own uncle because after marrying, you are neither a sibling of either of your parents - nor are you married to a sibling of your parent. So you aren't your own uncle. Merely being married to your aunt doesn't make someone your uncle if she's only an aunt by marriage. (She really ought to be your "Aunt-in-law" by analogy to "Mother-in-law").

There have been plenty of cases where guys have married their mother-in-law after their wives died. That would make them their own father-in-law and probably their own son-in-law.

See Also: I'm My Own Grandpa.

SteveBaker (talk) 14:06, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

For a slightly different take on this: your father's brother isn't called your uncle because he married your "aunt by marriage", it's the other way around. If your father's brother died, and his widow (your Aunt Beryl) remarried a guy called Fred, would you call him Uncle Fred? No, because there's no way he's your uncle. He's merely the new husband of your aunt. (It could be argued she's not even strictly speaking your aunt anymore because her connection to your family was via marriage, and that marriage has ended. You'd obviously still call her Aunt Beryl, out of courtesy.) And if "aunt" Beryl died, and Fred remarried, would his new wife become your aunt? Even more emphatically no. And so on. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:28, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Just to be difficult I could point out that I have experience of an aunt and uncle divorcing and the family not only continuing to refer to the (non-blood related) aunt as 'aunt', but also referring to her new husband as 'uncle'. But that's to do with the titles being more tied up with respect than with actual relatedness. The family also referred to some close friends as 'aunt' and 'uncle', so there you go. 217.42.157.143 (talk) 00:59, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

That was actually pretty common in the past. I grew up in the late 1950's and early 1960's calling my mothers' closest friends "Aunty". It was not considered polite for children to use an adult's first names - but using their second names was ridiculous formal - so somehow we knew them all as "Aunty". Go figure. It was years later before I finally figured out which of those many aunts was really my mother's sister. SteveBaker (talk) 02:58, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

As we've discussed on the ref desk before, in Australia it IS legal to marry your aunt (ie, mother or father's sister). Gwinva (talk) 22:58, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Although in Jewish law it is forbidden for a man to marry his aunt, a woman is allowed to marry her uncle. On this basis, we can rephrase this question: "If I marry my uncle do I become my own aunt?!!" Simonschaim (talk) 07:05, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

What about a legal same-sex marriage between a man (A) and his uncle (B)? A would become his own uncle as well as B's nephew and husband; but B would be only A's uncle and husband. The mind boggles. -- JackofOz (talk) 07:17, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

High speed rail

Is High speed rail (Over 250kmh) ever a possibility in the United Kingdom? I know there have been many proposals but will it ever be a benefit in the long term, considering the costs it would incur? Clover345 (talk) 15:18, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia has articles on everything! High-speed rail in the United Kingdom. --Tango (talk) 17:26, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

No it doesn't. That article doesn't answer my question. Can I have a proper answer please. Clover345 (talk) 17:30, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

There is no simple "yes/no" answer, you'll have to actually read up on the subject and find out about the range of opinions. That article has a section on various studies and their outcomes - that's as close to an answer to your question as you're going to get. --Tango (talk) 17:58, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Click here - look at the red lines (300kph) and yellow lines (200 to 230kph) running across the UK.

Well, it's certainly possible to have 250 kph trains. Trains run at 300kph between London and the channel tunnel and 200 to 230 kph elsewhere (se image at right) - so it's not much of a stretch that they could push it a little higher and make all of the yellow tracks run at 250kph. What's uniquely difficult in the UK is that the rail network mostly dates back to Victorian times - they were designed for much lower speeds, they have sharp turns and there are many gated road crossings. Worse still, they were used for local traffic as well as long distance so they tend to run right through the middle of densely inhabited areas that grew up around the prosperity brought about by the railways. This makes buying the land needed to straighten the corners out exceedingly difficult and expensive. You can make trains that'll go around those tight turns at higher speeds - but it tends to be rough on the passengers. Hence the need for trains that tilt into the curves...but those are mechanically problematic. SteveBaker (talk) 20:06, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

France and Germany faced similar problems (especially Germany). The solution in those countries was to build new, straighter, dedicated rail lines to carry the high-speed trains. The older lines have largely remained in service for slower, local trains. What would be required in the UK would be money to buy the needed rights of way and then to build the new rail lines. However, unlike France and Germany, the UK is not currently politically inclined toward this scale of public investment. Marco polo (talk) 20:40, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

When you see the grief they went through to straighten out the track on that teeny-tiny section of red track that goes from London to the channel tunnel - the court cases, the studies, the counter-studies - compulsory purchase of peoples homes - the devaluation of homes close enough to the tracks to be bothered by the noise and vibration of a hundred tons of train (or whatever it is) hurtling past at 160mph...it was an utter nightmare. The idea that you could do that for all of the yellow track in that image just to get a 250kph train (remember, they already go 230kph) - it's impossible - even with a government that wanted to do it. The population density in the UK is just so much higher than in France and Germany. SteveBaker (talk) 02:54, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

No, they don't already. Except for "High Speed 1" (the new name for the Channel Tunnel Rail Link) with a 300 km/h (186 mph) limit, the fastest trains in the UK go 125 mph (201 km/h). There were plans some years ago to upgrade some tracks (part of the East Coast Main Line if I recall correctly) for a speed of 225 km/h (140 mph) -- hence the brand name "InterCity 225" for certain trains -- but this was canceled as not being commercially viable.

Anyway, as far as this question applies to future developments, what it's really asking for is political speculation, which is not a Reference Desk subject, right? --Anonymous, 05:37 UTC, August 20/08.

Rhythm

Can rhythm be taught? --Endless Dan 16:01, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

It can certainly be learned, mostly through practice. Partly it's a mental thing, partly it's a muscle memory thing. --Masamage ♫ 16:06, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

So the saying "You can't teach rhythm" is untrue? A person with two left feet can turn into Fred Astaire with practice? --Endless Dan 16:16, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Teaching and learning are different things. There are a lot of things you can learn that you can't teach. Also, mastering a basic sense of rhythm is different from turning into Fred Astaire. That only happened once. --Masamage ♫ 16:24, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

So if you tap your feet and listen to the beat then soon you will find there's a rhythm in your mind ?Gandalf61 (talk) 16:18, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Obvbiously this is a personal thing, but I am here to tell you that after many years of trying I cannot hold a beat. If somebody counts I can do the dance steps, for example, but I'm helpless on my own.90.9.208.243 (talk) 14:12, 20 August 2008 (UTC)AV

Theater Editor Urgently Needed for Community theatre

This article is really badly written and uncited. I put in one little fact which I ran across, but I'm not a theater person. I only know enough to know this is an article in drastic need of a rewrite. Is this the place to mention it? Artemis-Arethusa (talk) 17:23, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Not really, we're here to help find the answers to factual questions, much like the reference desk at your library. You wrote on Talk:Community theatre, which was a good choice, and I would also suggest Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Theatre. For really high-level questions about Wikipedia, like "Where do I go for help with my problem?", there's Wikipedia:Help desk. -- Coneslayer (talk) 17:33, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I've place a request on the WikiProject Theatre Talk page you suggested. Artemis-Arethusa (talk) 17:45, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Insects at penthouse level

For all the times you see open balcony doors in penthouses in movies, I've never seen anyone standing on a balcony swat at a bug. Is there something about the altitude that eliminates bugs at a certain height? 71.127.89.58 (talk) 17:46, 19 August 2008 (UTC)justcurious

Yes and no. First, movies are a bad reference point for this sort of question. Now, as to the "no": insects can live at altitudes far greater than that of a skyscraper. That's not an issue. As for the "yes", the tops of skyscrapers may well be lousy environments for insects, so there may just be fewer of them. Consider also that up- and downdrafts in urban environments will also vary the insect distribution. — Lomn 18:16, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I rarely see people in movies swat a bug period. Nil Einne (talk) 19:34, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Unless they are in a tropical climate. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 22:49, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

All sorts of things that happen in real life are shown in movies only if they serve to advance the story or make a point about the characters or the setting, or else if they happen accidentally and the director decides to leave them in. There's a scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark where a fly crawls into the mouth of one of the bad guys while he's speaking, and he just ignores it (presumably eating it). I don't know, but my guess is that it happened by accident, the actor (Paul Freeman) decided it was "in character" to do what he did, and the director (Steven Spielberg) agreed. --Anonymous, 05:48 UTC, August 20/08.

I've lived as high as the 45th floor of a building, and you can take it from me that there are plenty of insects (and spiders) of various sorts on balconies at that height. (What really startled me, though, was a peregrine falcon that chose to land on the railing of my balcony one day when I was sitting fairly still out there.) The number of barn swallows I see feeding in flight outside my windows these days (35th floor) also shows that there are plenty of insects up here. Deor (talk) 02:53, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Dumb blonde

Does anyone know what has happened to the blonde on an old The Newlywed Game show who Didn't know the difference between urban and rural.129.112.109.250 (talk) 18:33, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

That's the world of entertainment for you (to go to[20]). Julia Rossi (talk) 12:24, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Minimum driving age

What is the history of the driving age? Why was it first implemented? (I think it's retarded, and want to understand why it was even made.)--71.185.143.90 (talk) 20:13, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

In what jurisdiction? Algebraist 20:15, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

USA, or wherever it was first implemented, or both.--71.185.143.90 (talk) 20:19, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

See Driver's_license_in_the_United_States. That article has anything you could possibly want to know.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 20:29, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Except it doesn't have anything related to my questions...--71.185.143.90 (talk) 22:36, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, you don't want a 5-year-old operating a vehicle, so it becomes a question "How old before someone can be responsible?" and the answer to that question is different from state to state. You pretty much have to deal with it, just like the drinking age and age of majority.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 23:08, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

My question is about the history of the driving age. And I'm 18 by the way.--71.185.143.90 (talk) 23:36, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually in some places you can see a 5 year old driving - as long as it is on private property and not on public roads. Also in some cases agricultural equipment being moved between fields doesn't require any license or minimum age. Rmhermen (talk) 01:01, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Boy, I seem to have wandered down a rabbit hole on this one. Very little on the web about the history of automobile licensing in the United States. Perusing the archives of the New York Times (warning: hardcore OR following), it seems like automobile licensing first took off in the busy north east in the very early 20th century. Between 1900 and 1905 or so there are a LOT of articles about automobile licensing—it was a very contentious issue! One article from 1903 characterizes the moment as so:

Never in the history of automobiling has there been such an epidemic of anti-automobile legislation as has been produced this Spring. In almost every State in which the sport is sufficiently popular to attract public attention restrictive legislation has been either passed or is pending. While the automobile clubs have been able to prevent the adoption of some of the almost prohibit measures proposed, they have in no case been able to prevent the passage of a general law, so strenuous has been the demand for the regulation of motor vehicles."

Among the regulations cited in the article are vehicle registration (which seems to be primarily revenue-generating in origin), speed limits (in New Jersey, it was originally 8 mph within cities, 20 mph outside of them), and—you guessed it—driver's licenses.

There was apparently stiff opposition to licensing by these automobile clubs, who argued that if licenses weren't required for other sorts of road traffic (horses, carriages, etc.), why should they be required for automobiles? Nobody says how fast you can ride a horse—why a car? There were apparently many who felt that this was unnecessary encroachment into private space—that the legislature had no right to tell people how they could or could not use their own private vehicles. Some even claimed that it was class legislation—remember that not everybody owned a car back then.

From what I can tell, just briefly skimming the old articles, is that it seems like the impetus to have individual drivers be licensed to drive is so that you can remove said license if they violate certain rules. That is, it was done in order to enforce the idea that the "right to drive" is not a right at all, but a privilege conferred by the state. It's sort of a radical idea if you think about it from the perspective of all of the things that we don't need the state's permission to do, even if the idea of a driver's license seems second nature to most of us now (and seems imminently logical to most).

As a note—New York seems to have required permits to drive in Central Park as early as 1900. It was newsworthy that they even allowed a woman to have one that year! "An automobile is the easiest thing in the world to handle," the lucky woman told the paper, "and I am astonished that women seem so timid. Any girl could operate one as easily as she could drive a pony. You ought to have seen the sensation there was among the coachmen when I first appeared alone in my little knockabout on Fifth Avenue. They all looked at me with astonishment, and some, it seemed to me, with displeasure. ... Of course, I'm very proud to be the first woman to get a permit to ride an automobile in the Park, and I shall available myself of it the first fine morning."

On the age requirement. I found a nice survey of age requirements from 1930—not too different than what we have today, but unsurprisingly states with low population densities had more lax laws than those with high densities. In many of the "big empty states" the age requirement, if there was one, was low and restricted to driving on public roads. Places of high population density (New York, DC, etc.) had systems that look a lot like the present laws (tests, learner's permits, strict enforcement of age limits). But even in 1930, you didn't need any license to drive in eleven states.

But where do the age requirements come from? I confess not to be able to see. They were certainly fairly commonplace in New York by 1920, though in 1925 a committee on the National Conference on Street and Highway Safety got press time for advocating minimum age requirements for general drivers and taxicab drivers. All of the issues on licensing seem to be driven by safety concerns—lots of bandying around of statistics (apparently headlight laws were first floated in the 1920s, drastically reducing nighttime fatalities). New Jersey had an minimum age requirement (16) as early as 1906. It is worth noting that by focusing on the US, I necessarily neglected the possibility (which seems likely) that much automobile legislation was occurring in Europe at the same time, and may have served as a model for the US approach. As early as 1902 Germany had a minimum age requirement (18), for example.

Anyway, I do confess, if you want a pretty entertaining way to spend an hour, looking up old articles on automobiles in the New York Times is a pretty good way to do it! I'm charmed by accounts of the legislative battles, some early criminal problems (there was a wonderful account from 1900 of how a "hilarious young man who had dined not wisely but too well" started up an automobile whiles its owner was somewhere else and let the "infernal machine" run down the street on its own, "and there was much excitement for the population of Washington for some time thereafter", and how unfortunately it was "an unpunishable crime" because there was at that point no law at all against such a thing, because "the framers of the code did not consider the possibility of horseless carriages"), and even the gory accounts of early auto accidents (early automobiles sound like literal time bombs—they could apparently just explode under their own normal operation if something went wrong!). This topic would be an excellent subject for a New Yorker article, I must say, by someone more talented than I... anyway, hope this is entertaining and interesting to those other than myself, though I got enough out of it to be happy! --98.217.8.46 (talk) 23:55, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Wow! Thanks a lot, guy!--71.185.143.90 (talk) 00:14, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Smoke Free or Smokescreen?

Is the following a scam? It is http://www.freezerosmoke.com They claim that magnets worn on the ears will make "you" quit smoking. 65.173.104.41 (talk) 20:30, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

It's not necessarily a scam, but only because they may genuinely believe in the product. For half the price I'll sell you something that works equally as well, I call it placebo. Seriously though, those are ridiculous. -- Mad031683 (talk) 20:39, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

A very intriguing product. I wasn't able to dismiss their claims as a bunch of bullshit until I read their explanation of "how it works": You will find it very easy to stop smoking because the magnets have already induced the production of endorphins that remove the craving to smoke. Endorphins acts on the opium receptors in the brain, whereas nicotene acts on the nicotinic acetylcholine receptors. Even if endorphins were released in the brain as a result of the product, there's no way it could affect the craving to smoke tobacco. On top of that, it's very difficult to get your brain to release endorphins (meaning few activities cause the brain to react by releasing endorphins), and some simple magnet on your ear isn't going to do it. This product may still help some people to stop smoking, but it's not because of all the biological crap they say. It's based off of the psychological power of suggestion, and unless you are really convinced the product is helping you quit, it will be usless. Since the OP is already skeptical of the product, I suggest saving your money.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 21:36, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Just another purported claim for magnet therapy curing all of life's ills. It is not at all scientific. There are no health benefits distinguishable from placebos. (But hey, let's not knock placebos. I know a guy who swears by his magnets for his carpal tunnel. If he's happy, I don't see this as being particularly harmful. There are worse things to waste money on. Sometimes a little placebo goes a long way! If the idea of a magic bullet actually helps people quit smoking, then that's fine by me. Unfortunately, most people probably will need a bit more than something like this, and to take advantage of a deadly addiction to make a cheap buck is pretty deplorable.) (Note that it's hard for me to tell whether they are claiming its the magnets or the pressure or both that work. Regardless, it's hokum.) --98.217.8.46 (talk) 22:28, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

A few other warning signs:

1. You can try the product "free", but you still have to pay an arm and a leg in "shipping and handling" if you return it. At $6 S&H for a pair of tiny magnets, they're probably making money even if you return them, on the expectation that a fair number of people will not return them for whatever reason. Despite the URL, it's not really "free"—it still costs $7, no matter what, and will cost $40 if you don't remember to return them.

2. $40 for a tiny pair of electroplated magnets is ridiculous. They likely cost only pennies to produce. You are paying for advertising time exclusively. Everything else is pure profit. This is "sucker is born every minute" material.

3. The instructions say it takes a month to really work. But you have to return them within two weeks if you aren't happy. So even in an ideal world where the product worked, you wouldn't actually be able to fully see if they worked or not before having to decide whether or not they worked. Shady...

4. Sadly, about half of the testimonials on the site are from people who claim that they haven't been able to quit yet...

--98.217.8.46 (talk) 22:47, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes - it's a scam. Absolutely, not two ways about it - they don't work, won't work, can't work. The people selling them are either in that group of nasty individuals who will prey on desperate people - or they are people who have gotten stuck in one of those pyramid selling schemes...either way, there are no moral scruples here.

It's been shown in dozens of studies that the human body is hardly affected at all by even the most intense magnetic fields we know how to generate. When you see the spectacularly strong fields used in MRI machines (our article says that a 100 tonne neodymium magnet isn't strong enough!) probably millions of times stronger than these magnets and realise that the MRI machine has been studied intensively to make sure it doesn't affect you in any way whatever - there is zero chance that these little magnets could have a real effect...ZERO. Yes - they might work for a few people by the placebo effect - but that's not going to happen if you are sceptical...which you clearly are or you wouldn't be asking. Save your money. Check out Smoking cessation#Statistics - there is a list of methods that are known to work along with their success rates. Several of those can be used in combination. Notice that magic $40 magnets are nowhere on that list! SteveBaker (talk) 02:46, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Why does the FCC and/or its equivelents allow that bullshit on TV? Its not just the US. 65.173.104.41 (talk) 05:53, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure there is bullshit like "ZeroSmoke" being advertized on TV all over the planet. Agree? Disagree? 65.173.104.41 (talk) 05:56, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

In the UK, we have the Trade Descriptions Act 1968 - which prevents many of the worst excesses I see on US television. SteveBaker (talk) 19:15, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Advertising the use of Wikipedia

Good Afternoon,

I am writing as an agent of a small Canadian Credit Union. We would like to reference key words searches in our printed and possibly radio advertising in a fashion similar to the following:

"For more information search Wikipedia key words: credit union, cooperative, ..."

Is this allowed by Wikipedia? Do you have any trade mark requirements? Can the puzzle globe logo be used? Do we need to puchase a licensing agreement to use the name and/or logo?

If you need more information about our intentions we will have to arrange it since I have been advised by the site not to leave contact information here.

Thanks,

216.26.206.14 (talk) 20:53, 19 August 2008 (UTC)Hoyt

NO Adverts allowed here. See what others say first. 65.173.104.41 (talk) 20:57, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

He's not talking about advertising on Wikipedia; he's talking about directing users from his site to use Wikipedia to get information. To the OP, I'd suggest you contact the Wikimedia Foundation as they are the operators of this site. - Eron^Talk 21:03, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

He's not asking about putting advertisements here. Read his question more carefully. He's asking about the use of the Wikipedia name. APL (talk) 21:06, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't have an answer, but these documents may help. Wikipedia:About, Wikipedia:Copyrights, and Wikipedia:Citing_Wikipedia

APL (talk) 21:06, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't see any problem saying in your ads something like "Search Wikipedia for credit union, cooperative, ..." but I don't understand what good this would do for your business except provide people with basic information about those terms. It doesn't help your business specifically. It's like saying "Google blah blah blah for more information" but all the info is generic. You cannot, however, alter the pages you reference to include any kind of advertisement for your company, not even an external link. As for the Wikipedia logo, you can't use it for commercial purposes as it is under copyright.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 21:10, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

(I am not a lawyer but) directing people to Wikipedia might constitute fair use of the Wikipedia logo. Algebraist 21:16, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Mmmm... probably not. It'd be a weak claim, anyway. Esp. for commercial purposes. (It's non-transformative, which counts for a lot.) --98.217.8.46 (talk) 22:25, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

1. There is no problem in linking to Wikipedia or referring people to the site.

2. The Wikipedia logo is copyrighted and trademarked. Use of the Wikipedia logo is requires permission from the Wikimedia Foundation. Here is their contact information, but note that "they are not generally available for other uses" except for press or media about Wikipedia. I suggest getting in touch with their press contact people and explaining your situation and seeing what they say. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 22:25, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

As others have pointed out, the Wikipedial globe is just about the only thing on Wikipedia that you CAN'T copy. But you could consider using Wikipe-tan (our mascot) for the link instead. There is only the usual GFDL restrictions on using that image. SteveBaker (talk) 02:30, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't want to be associated with that "Wikipe-tan". Horrible thing. 81.187.153.189 (talk) 07:17, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I would exercise caution in publicly associating yourself with specific Wikipedia pages or search terms in a public advertising campaign. Although vandalism is reverted rapidly, there is usually a short period of time when people get served the vandalized pages. If someone has it out for your company, they may put inappropriate/disparaging information on the pages you're sending your customers to. There is a possibility that a customer may come along during the short period of time before it is reverted, tarnishing you by association. Unlike other companies (e.g. the "AOL keyword" and "search Yahoo! for ____" campaigns), Wikipedia will not serve special content or otherwise change it's standard operating procedure specifically so that you can have a company-vetted page appear to special searches. - I will note, however, that as Wikipedia is freely licensed, you should be able to set up your own website containing a copy of the Wikipedia pages of interest, and on that site (but not wikipedia.org) you can exert more stringent editorial control. Have your lawyers look at the "Copyrights" link at the bottom of the page to learn more. -- 128.104.112.147 (talk) 17:03, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

---

As you may have guessed, no-one here is competent to answer this question. The wikimedia foundation (which owns the trademark and copyright for the logo) can be contacted at Wikimedia Foundation Inc. P.O. Box 78350 San Francisco, CA 94107-8350 USA --Random832 (contribs) 12:50, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Nissan commercial song

What's the name of the song in the new Nissan commercial? It's a sort of guitar instrumental with a bass drum backbeat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.134.130.201 (talk) 22:28, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Have you tried the Entertainment desk[21] where music types hang out? Julia Rossi (talk) 12:21, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

If you happen to have an Apple iPhone handy, you could ask Shazam what the song is. (I'm told similar applcations exist for other platforms, but Shazam running on the iPhone works very well and will impress your friends.)

Atlant (talk) 14:33, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

hearts terminology

i was playing hearts on yahoo, and a said to me "not bad, 3 passes 3 duks". Whats that mean? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.188.139.77 (talk) 23:00, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you ask them? Algebraist 23:04, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Presumably because the game is over. --Masamage ♫ 01:01, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

August 20

FINIS LANGDON BATES AND MARTIN VAN BUREN BATES

ARE THESE TWO RELATED SOME HOW —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.77.179.52 (talk) 01:26, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I could find no connection between them - the only coincidence is that they both toured with circusses for a while...aside from that, I don't see anything. SteveBaker (talk) 02:23, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Alternate uses for Shampoos

Suppose one is showering after a long day of cardiovascular aerobics and sweating...

• Can shampoo be used to clean the body?
• Can conditioner be used to clean the body?
• Can conditioner be used to clean the hair in the absence of shampoo?
• Can body wash/soap be used to clean the hair?

Thanks. Acceptable (talk) 02:54, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Shampoo says that "soap bonds to oils with such affinity that it removes too much if used on hair. Shampoo uses a different class of surfactants balanced to avoid removing too much oil from the hair." About.com says it doesn't do much good either. I wouldn't imagine it'd do that much damage if used infrequently (but IANAD, Wikipedia does not give hair care advice, etc etc...) — Matt Eason ^{(Talk • Contribs)} 03:11, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

The main purpose of all of these fancy cleaning materials is to reduce the surface tension of the water to make it "wetter" and to act as a surfactant to help it mix with (and therefore remove) otherwise immiscible oils from your skin/hair/whatever. Pretty much anything with soap in it does the same thing - shampoo, washing up liquid, it's all pretty much the same stuff. All of the other junk they put in it is largely just to help with the marketting and justify the price. So, yeah - by all means wash hair with body wash or wash body with shampoo...or use Dawn washing up liquid. The results are going to be pretty much the same.

There have been experiments to show that washing your hair rarely - and with water alone - produces the better results than any hair care products - although it takes a while for your hairs' natural oil to build up after years of destroying them with surfactants - so things get worse before they get better!

SteveBaker (talk) 03:24, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorbolene is the best thing for skin, although it's probably better to wash hair with conditioner. -- JackofOz (talk) 04:14, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

On the market, there is "Hair and Body Wash" for men. I won't mention the company's name because they don't pay me to advertise, but I'm sure you can find it (and perhaps other brands) in the shampoo aisle.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 20:09, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

wmc

hia cant u tell me wat does a president do or job on a committee of the club thank u —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.9.159.216 (talk) 07:12, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Firstly a bunch of people elect a chairperson who runs the meetings, so the president is the chairperson and controls the way the meeting goes. The president is careful to spell things out to other people so the records and tasks are really clear. Then there are other positions lower than that held by people who do the grunt work. Julia Rossi (talk) 12:17, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Depending on the organization, the meetings may be run according to a set of rules--a common example is Robert's Rules of Order. If the organization you're particularly interested in has a set of rules, try consulting them--often they describe in some detail the specific responsibilities and powers of the officers of the organization. User:Jwrosenzweig editing as 71.231.197.110 (talk) 19:01, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Unitarian Universalism

Often, religions have their own holy religious book. Christians have the Bible. Muslims have the Qur'an. Jews have the Tanakh. Mormons have both the Bible and the Book of Mormon. But what about Unitarian Universalists? Do they have any holy religious book? Do they believe any book to be inspired by God or inerrant and infallible? If so, then do they believe the Bible to be inspired by God or inerrant and infallible? If not, then what book do they believe to be inspired by God or inerrant and infallible? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.108.43.77 (talk) 07:22, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Have you read Unitarian Universalism#Approach to sacred writings? Algebraist 08:32, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

There's also the just possibly apocryphal Unitarian Jihad. — OtherDave (talk) 14:34, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

pro snowboarding

can u become a pro snowboarder at any age or do u have to start off young? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.68.76 (talk) 10:06, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

By "pro" do you mean paid professional or just clever? Either way go for it and be sure to document/video your best moves in case of later notability. Julia Rossi (talk) 12:09, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I think with any activity that requires a great deal of physical skill, practice and dedication, you're going to benefit from starting early. I'm sure you can become a pro snowboarder at any age (well, you know, up to the point where you're just too old for that kind of strenous activity), provided that you make sure you have the training, the dedication and the physique it requires, but a guy who starts at 15 is going to have a huge advantage over a guy who starts at 30 -- those fifteen years of experience are going to count for a lot. It'd definitely be an uphill struggle, even if you'd been snowboarding as a hobby for years. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 12:30, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

There's an interesting section in Daniel Levitin's This Is Your Brain on Music. He talks about expertise requiring roughly 10,000 hours of practice. For example, if you spent 20 hours a week practicing a musical instrument, that's roughly 1,000 hours a year for 10 years. This is a rule of thumb, not a law of physics, but the general idea is that you need a great deal of time working in some field in order to master nuances, gain automaticity, integrate elements. — OtherDave (talk) 19:38, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

British dentist

why do english people have such bad teeth? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 11:33, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Nanonic (talk) 11:35, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Lack of dentists may play a role[22]. Do Australians alos have poor teeth? Or Germans very good ones? Rmhermen (talk) 13:58, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Why don't French women shave their armpits? --Endless Dan 12:16, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

This question has been posted several times on other question boards and forums outside WP. Feed the troll if you want to!!

As a Brit who moved to North America one of the little things I've been puzzled by is that North Americans place a huge emphasis on teeth. Americans particularly obsess over their teeth, making huge efforts to make sure they have the best they can. By contrast Brits don't do that, and that leads to the sterotype of "Brits have bad teeth". I don't know a reason for this obsession but I've come up with some theories.

1. Americans generally have health insurance which includes free dental cover, which includes things like tooth straightening (Brits would call this 'cosmetic' dentistry). It's therefore normal for American children to be wearing braces to correct even the tiniest tooth defect. In Britain this cosmetic dentisty isn't covered by government health funding and so would cost a fair bit of money;it isn't done by most families for anything other than correcting severe problems.
2. Americans place a much higher value on physical appearance than Brits. American politicians, even at local level, are uniformly good looking - so are press officers, spokespeople and even athletes. This means that pretty much everyone you see on TV in the US has good teeth, even if they are just the local police chief (who probably had to be elected to his position, remember).
3. It's also true that there is an abundance of dentists in North America. Here in Canada we have a doctor shortage, such that many people don't even have a regular doctor. Dentists on the other hand are plentiful, and compete for your business.

DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:05, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

It's for many reasons - we have traditionally fed our kids on sugary comfort food from birth - we dipped their comforters in syrups etc. - we were given concentrated and sweetened orange juice to supplement their diet after WW2 during severe rationing and the habit continued - our infant, junior, and senior schools all had tuck shops that sold jammy dodgers etc., - our schools were surrounded by sweetie shops and ice-cream vans that tempted school kids to part with their money - we served up sticky hot puddings after lunch and dinner - and we gave them sweetened soft drinks like Coke and Pepsi drinks instead of water. And when we grew up, we continued to eat sweets and chocolates, and drank sweet alcoholic drinks like beer and whisky, and latterly wine - and we forgot all about the effect on our teeth. I am 61 and have all my own teeth which is quite unusual in one coming from a large family of working-class children. Until I started working at age 16, my teeth too were quite bad, but thankfully, I signed on with an NHS dentist and have visited him/her every 6 months since. And now I can afford it, and now that the NHS won't pay for me to have any cosmetic work done on the NHS, I choose to pay privately. And thankfully, my own children and grandchildren are emulating me, and we all have lovely teeth and sweet breath. Hope that goes some way to answering the OP. 92.21.185.182 (talk) 14:18, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd turn the question around and ask why do so many Americans have such unnaturally even and shiny teeth? DuncanHill (talk) 16:42, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Having teeth that look great and having healthy teeth is not always exactly the same. American dentists have succeeded in convincing the populace that a "perfect smile" is essential for a happy and successful life. Therefore every kid whose parents can afford it have braces and and every adult who can afford it has their teeth whitened or capped. The result: the industry keep generating money ($70 billion a year! [23]) and those who have the money have perfect looking teeth. In contrast, the British dental system was, for many years at least, government funded, and therefore had different priorities. The NHS didn't particularly care whether your teeth were skew or imperfectly aligned, they used the money to ensure that, theoretically, everyone had access to basic dental healthcare. However, that is now changing to an American system, so expect to see more Brits with stunning smiles in the future.

I would note that, while American middle classes like to joke about the English having bad teeth, they conveniently forget the 45 million Americans without any health insurance - pretty much equivalent to the entire population of England. I very much doubt those people have million dollar smiles either. Dostioffski (talk) 17:47, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

ACCRA GHANA

Hello Everybody, Is Ghana considered to be offshore where there are offshore banks??and is Ghana still under British territories?? Thomas —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.86.15.15 (talk) 14:54, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Ghana became fully independent in 1957. See Ghana and British overseas territories. List_of_banks_in_the_United_Kingdom does not include any Ghana-based banks. SteveBaker (talk) 15:07, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Ghana has been an independent nation since 1957; it was the first African nation to achieve independence from the United Kingdom.

I cannot answer the first part of the question because the terminology "offshore" (outside of strictly geographical uses, and then only in relation to things a relatively short distance away from the shore) utterly defeats me, and since I will never willingly use this word outside of that context, I simply cannot bring myself to research what complexities of meaning it's acquired of recent years. -- JackofOz (talk) 15:13, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Apocolitical

I have often heard it said that if the world were to end in 1 days time, alot of people would be having sex. So is this true, and what is the most common past time people would choose in this situation? is it sex or is it spend the day with my dog, or walk in the woods etc. Further more I have heard it said that if one were to be diagnosed with a terminal illness one would do allkinds of extravagant things before one dies, why do terminally ill people not do thses things when they finally are in that possition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 15:14, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

The first question is entirely unanswerable. As to the second, consider that many terminally ill people are sufficiently ill (or insufficiently moneyed) to preclude said extravagant things. — Lomn 15:42, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

If the world were going to end in 1 day, I would call my stockbroker - there could be some real buying opportunities in the market. :) (also I would edit-war on Wikipedia and get a bunch of pages protected in my version for 2 days) Franamax (talk) 15:57, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

The problem with a lot of these ideas - like "doing all kinds of extravagant things" is that everyone else will be doing the same kinds of thing. You can't be "extravagant" because that would entail spending money and nobody in their right mind is going to spend the last day of their life at work! So the shops are all shut - there are no restaurants open - no Taxis or public transport is running. Money is worth nothing...in fact nothing you can't use in the next 24 hours has any value - so even barter is dead. The police are almost certainly not working - so criminals can do what they want. If sex is indeed the imperative - then rape, child molestation, etc (without any risk of consequences) would likely spike. Really - life in that last day would be utter freaking chaos. But if the first people to find out really believed it - then you might never even know about it. Do the politicians who first find out want to waste an entire hour of their last 24 telling the world? Radio and TV stations would probably shut down before they could get the news out. Pretty soon after the announcement, you might find you have no power or phones...certainly it would be "patchy" at best. You (and almost everyone else) are still wondering what the heck is happening - perhaps hearing rumors but not much more - all the way up to the moment when the planet gets eaten by the giant purple aardvark. SteveBaker (talk) 19:06, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Living Abroad

My entire family (self, son, daughter-in-law, and grandchild) are alarmed at the path our native country has taken and wish to get out of U.S. Are there any folks out there who have expatriated, and if so to where? We are seeking any relevant data, including visa requirements, cost of living, requirements for becoming permanent residents, etc. We would welcome all information that could help make a choice of new place easier. If any of you Americans living abroad have advice and/or information, please submit an article for us.

Thanks, mama T. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.10.238.134 (talk) 15:30, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

These colors don't run, mama! LoL - Seriously, I believe this same question came up a few months back on the Help Desk. Maybe a kind soul will be able to locate it for you. Also, try a Google search. Something like Americans living abroad. I'm sure there are a few support groups out there. Were you thinking of any specific country? Or continent?? --Endless Dan 15:33, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Canada has very low entry requirements (especially for USians), a very similar culture, almost identical cost of living and is convenient for getting back to visit relatives who don't share your views. DJ Clayworth (talk) 18:11, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

"Very low?" I'm not sure Citizenship and Immigration Canada would necessarily agree. In any event, that link has lots of info for people who are considering immigrating to Canada. — OtherDave (talk) 19:52, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I know a person who has seriously considered a similar move for similar reasons and may yet make that move, partly depending on the outcome of the next election. This person ended up choosing Canada for the reasons DJ Clayworth mentions; however, the entry requirements for Canada are not necessarily low. The principal applicant needs to amass sufficient points (as explained on the linked immigration site) to merit admission to Canada. Points are awarded for educational and professional qualifications, for being under 49 years of age, for connections to Canada, and for proficiency in English or French. People from the US have an advantage only insofar as they tend to be fluent in English. Once the principal applicant and his or her immediate family are admitted (a process which tends to take over a year) and take residence and find a decent livelihood in Canada, the principal applicant is likely to be able to sponsor other family members such as parents. Australia and New Zealand use a similar point system but have a shorter list of qualifying occupations than Canada. The UK is in the process of implementing a point system. (The UK also has a relatively high cost of living relative to salaries.) Other countries may require that an applicant be sponsored by an employer who can demonstrate that the applicant has unique qualifications that cannot be met by a citizen of that country. Marco polo (talk) 20:43, 20 August 2008 (UTC)