Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals) and 2006 Pacific typhoon season: Difference between pages

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{{Infobox hurricane season
<noinclude>{{Villagepumppages|Proposals|The '''proposals''' section of the village pump is used to discuss new ideas and proposals that are not policy-related (see [[Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)]] for that).
| Basin=WPac
| Year=2006
| Track=2006 Pacific typhoon season summary.jpg
| First storm formed=[[May 9]], [[2006]]
| Last storm dissipated=[[December 19]], [[2006]]
| Strongest storm name=Yagi
| Strongest storm winds=105
| Strongest storm pressure=910
| Average wind speed=10
| Total depressions=30 <!-- JTWC:4 (1,13,15&17W) CMA:1 PAGASA:2 JMA:22 including Ioke -->
| Total storms=23 official plus 2 unofficial
| Total hurricanes=15
| Total intense=6 (unofficial)
| Fatalities=At least 2,532
| Damages=12000
| Inflated=1
| five seasons=[[2004 Pacific typhoon season|2004]], [[2005 Pacific typhoon season|2005]], '''2006''', [[2007 Pacific typhoon season|2007]], [[2008 Pacific typhoon season|2008]]|}
}}
{{wikinewscat|Hurricane season, 2006}}
The '''2006 Pacific typhoon season''' had no official bounds; it ran year-round in 2006, but most [[tropical cyclone]]s tend to form in the northwestern [[Pacific Ocean]] between May and November.<ref>http://www.typhoon2000.ph/garyp_mgtcs/may03sum.txt</ref> These dates conventionally delimit the period of each year when most tropical cyclones form in the northwestern [[Pacific Ocean]].


The scope of this article is limited to the Pacific Ocean, north of the equator and west of the [[international date line]]. Storms that form east of the date line and north of the equator are called hurricanes; see [[2006 Pacific hurricane season]]. Tropical Storms formed in the entire West Pacific basin are assigned a name by the [[Japan Meteorological Agency]]. Tropical depressions in this basin have the "W" suffix added to their number. In addition, the [[Philippine Atmospheric, Geophysical and Astronomical Services Administration]] (PAGASA) assigns names to tropical cyclones (including tropical depressions) that enter or form in the Philippine area of responsibility. These names, however, are not in common use outside of the Philippines.
Recurring policy proposals are listed at [[Wikipedia:Perennial proposals]]. If you have a proposal for something that sounds overwhelmingly obvious and are amazed that Wikipedia doesn't have it, please check there first before posting it, as someone else might have found it obvious, too.


==Storms==
'''Before posting your proposal:'''
{{see also|Timeline of the 2006 Pacific typhoon season}}
* '''Read [[WP:PEREN|this FAQ page]]''' for a list of frequent proposals and the responses to them.
* If the proposal is a '''change to the software''', file a bug at [http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org Bugzilla] instead. Your proposal is unlikely to be noticed by a developer unless it is placed there.
* If the proposal is a '''change in policy''', be sure to also post the proposal to, say, [[Wikipedia:Manual of style]], and ''ask people to discuss it '''there'''''.
* If the proposal is for a '''new wiki-style project''' outside of Wikipedia, please go to [[m:Proposals for new projects]] and follow the guidelines there. '''Please do ''not'' post it here.''' These are different from [[Wikipedia:WikiProject|WikiProjects]].<!-- Villagepumppages intro end -->|WP:VPR|WP:VP/PR|WP:PROPS}}__NEWSECTIONLINK__<!--


In storm information below, windspeed advisories differ from the Joint Typhoon Warning Center to the Japan Meteorological Agency as the JTWC uses the U.S. criteria of 1-minute mean to designate maximum sustained winds, while the JMA uses the 10-minute mean wind criteria to designate tropical cyclone maximum sustained winds. This difference generally means that JTWC maximum winds will appear to be higher than the maximum winds described by the JMA for the same cyclone.
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===Typhoon Chanchu (Caloy)===
-->[[ar:ويكيبيديا:الميدان/اقتراحات]][[id:Wikipedia:Warung Kopi (Usulan)]]
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
[[es:Wikipedia:Café/Portal/Archivo/Propuestas/Actual]][[hu:Wikipédia:Kocsmafal (javaslatok)]]
|Basin=WPac
[[ka:ვიკიპედია:ყავახანა/წინადადებები]][[zh-yue:Wikipedia:城市論壇 (提議)]]
|Image=Super Typhoon Chanchu.jpg
[[zh:Wikipedia:互助客栈/建议]]<!--
|Track=Chanchu 2006 track.png
|Formed=[[May 9]]
|Dissipated=[[May 19]]
|10-min winds=95
|1-min winds=125
|Pressure=930
}}
{{hurricane main|Typhoon Chanchu}}
An area of disturbed weather formed around [[May 5]] and moved [[west]]ward. The [[Joint Typhoon Warning Center]] released a [[Tropical Cyclone Formation Alert]] on [[May 8]], shortly before it upgraded the storm to a Tropical Depression. It became a tropical storm on [[May 9]]. The name "Chanchu" was submitted by [[Macau]] and means [[pearl]]. The JTWC then upgraded it to a typhoon on [[May 10]]. The storm maintained a westerly track and made two landfalls in the [[Philippines]], causing 32 deaths in the country<ref name="cnn">http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/05/14/philippines.typhoon.reut/index.html</ref> and $1.9&nbsp;million in damage<!--98.6 million pesos-->, much of it to agriculture.<ref name="reuters">[http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=scienceNews&storyID=2006-05-15T080918Z_01_MAN304331_RTRIDST_0_SCIENCE-WEATHER-PHILIPPINES-DC.XML&archived=False http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=science...]</ref>


After Chanchu left the Philippines, the JMA upgraded it to a typhoon. Chanchu turned to the north in the [[South China Sea]] and affected hundreds of [[Vietnam]]ese fishermen. Then, it became a super typhoon, only the second ever recorded in the South China Sea, but was one for only less than a day. The only other super typhoon to form in the South China Sea in recorded history is [[Ryan]] in 1995.<ref name="jtwc">https://metoc.npmoc.navy.mil/jtwc/atcr/1995atcr/pdf/wnp/19w.pdf</ref> Chanchu is also the most intense typhoon on [[Hong Kong Observatory]]'s record to enter the South China Sea in May. Chanchu necessitated the [[Hong Kong Tropical Cyclone Warning Signals|Strong Wind Signal no. 3]] in both Hong Kong and Macau.<ref name="hko">[http://www.hko.gov.hk/cgi-bin/hko/warndb_e1.pl?opt=91&tcname=CHANCHU&submit=Submit+Query HKO Warnings/Signals Database<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref><ref name="smg">[http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?pp_cat=11&art_id=18859&sid=7990894&con_type=1 The Standard - Hong Kong's First FREE English Newspaper<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref> It turned northeastward and made a final landfall along the southeastern seaboard of [[People's Republic of China|China]] on [[May 18]] resulting in at least 25 deaths and a direct economic loss of 7&nbsp;billion [[Chinese yuan|yuan]]. Chanchu became extratropical later that day.
-->
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===Tropical Storm Jelawat (Domeng)===
-->
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
|Basin=WPac
|Image=03W Jelawat 28 jun 2006 0030Z.jpg
|Track=Jelawat 2006 track.png
|Formed=[[June 27]]
|Dissipated=[[June 29]]
|10-min winds=40
|1-min winds=45
|Pressure=996
}}
An area of disturbed weather that began as a part of a monsoon trough<ref>http://www.monsoontyphoons.com/2006/jelawat.html</ref> formed around [[June 23]] east of the Philippines, and moved slowly over the islands. The [[Joint Typhoon Warning Center]] released a [[Tropical Cyclone Formation Alert]] on [[June 25]] as the system moved over the Philippines, and upgraded the system to Tropical Depression 03W the next day. The depression continued to organize as it moved away from the Philippines, and the JTWC upgraded it to Tropical Storm 03W on [[June 27]]. The Japan Meteorological Agency designated the storm as Tropical Storm Jelawat shortly after. The name Jelawat was submitted by [[Malaysia]], and is a name for a type of [[carp]].
Jelawat moved generally northwestward over the [[South China Sea]] during the next day, and weakened back to a tropical depression on [[June 28]]. The depression made landfall in southern [[China]] at 7:40 a.m. [[Chinese Standard Time|CST]] on [[June 29]]<ref name="cma">http://www.cma.gov.cn/cma_new/tqyb/zhyj/t20060629_137632.phtml</ref> and dissipated later that day.


The storm dropped heavy rainfall across southern [[China]] and [[Haikou]] recorded a rainfall of 309.7 [[millimetre|mm]] (12 [[inch]]es) during the storm passage.<ref>[http://mb.hainan.gov.cn/qxnews.asp?name=qxxx290959481.txt 海南公益气象信息服务系统-气象工作信息2<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref> A total of 8.6&nbsp;inches (220&nbsp;mm) rain fell in 16 hours in [[Kampung Bundu]], [[Malaysia]].<ref name="nst">http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/nst/Thursday/National/20060629080308/Article/local1_html</ref> The rainfall killed seven people and left one missing. The flooding from Jelawat ruined 200 square kilometres of farmland and destroyed 190 houses.<ref name="shanghaidaily">[http://www.shanghaidaily.com/art/2006/06/30/284709/Deadly_storms_strike_across_China.htm Shanghai Daily | 上海日报 - English Window to China News<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref>
== Wiki cache for references ==
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===Typhoon Ewiniar (Ester)===
There is a problem with material cited with an online reference, when that reference disappears, especially when someone then deletes the content on the basis it can't be verified. There are two situations: a) sometimes it is known, or can be suspected, that a ref will disappear because of the nature of the site (its practice is not to archive its own pages)—there is then the opportunity for pre-emptive action; b) it is unexpected—in this case it may still be available on google, but possibly only for a short time.
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
|Basin=WPac
|Image=Typhoon Ewiniar 04 july 2006 0440Z.jpg
|Track=Ewiniar 2006 track.png
|Formed=[[June 30]]
|Dissipated=[[July 10]]
|10-min winds=100
|1-min winds=130
|Pressure=930
}}
{{hurricane main|Typhoon Ewiniar (2006)}}
On [[June 29]], a persistent tropical disturbance was classified as a tropical depression by the JTWC while east of [[Palau]]. The depression moved northwestward and was upgraded to Tropical Storm 04W by the JTWC on [[June 30]]. The JMA designated the storm Tropical Storm Ewiniar at around the same time. The name "Ewiniar" was submitted by the [[Federated States of Micronesia]], and refers to a traditional storm god of [[Chuuk]].


Ewiniar was responsible for at least 30 deaths in China, which it brushed as a typhoon. The typhoon gradually weakened as it moved over colder waters, and made landfall in [[South Korea]] on [[July 10]] as a severe tropical storm. As Ewiniar moved across the country, it passed within 30&nbsp;miles (50&nbsp;km) of [[Seoul]].<ref>http://www.kma.go.kr/fcst/typ_eng/typ_eng_200607102220_03_029.html</ref> No tropical cyclone had come that close to Seoul in recent years.{{Fact|date=February 2007}} The passage of the storm brought heavy rain that triggered floods and mudslides in the southern part of the country, killing at least six people.<ref name="washpost">{{cite web | title = Typhoon leaves at least six dead in South Korea | work = Washington Post | publisher = Reuters | date = [[July 10]], [[2006]] | url = http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/10/AR2006071000198.html | accessdate = 2006-07-11}}</ref> Ewiniar became extratropical over the [[Sea of Japan]] on the same day.<!-- more info [http://au.biz.yahoo.com/060717/17/szco.html here]. -->
Some solutions to this might be:
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===Severe Tropical Storm Bilis (Florita)===
1. An archive noticeboard, where editors ask for endorsement that the material they have used is accurately based on the ref. This would be viable for simple uses of the ref, such as straightforward factual material.
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
|Basin=WPac
|Image=TS Bilis 2006 peak.jpg
|Track=Bilis 2006 track.png
|Formed=[[July 9]]
|Dissipated=[[July 15]]
|10-min winds=60
|1-min winds=50
|Pressure=970
}}
{{hurricane main|Tropical Storm Bilis}}
A tropical disturbance northeast of [[Yap]] developed sufficient convection to be designated a tropical depression on [[July 8]]. The depression strengthened into a tropical storm the next day, and was designated Tropical Storm Bilis by the JMA. The word "Bilis", submitted by the [[Philippines]], means speed or swiftness. PAGASA operationally treated this storm as a typhoon for a short time on [[July 13]], but it officially remained a tropical storm as it moved west-northwestward toward [[Taiwan]].


After moving over northern Taiwan, Bilis made landfall in [[Fujian]], [[China]] at 12:50 p.m. [[Chinese Standard Time|CST]] on [[July 14]],<ref>http://www.cma.gov.cn/cma_new/tqyb/zhyj/t20060714_140251.phtml</ref> weakening into a tropical depression inland the next day. JMA carried the system as a tropical depression until [[July 17]].<ref>http://www.jma.go.jp/jp/g3/images/observe/06071706.png</ref>
2. An archive noticeboard where relevant extracts from the ref are posted and endorsed. This would be useful when not a large portion of the ref is being used.
Bilis brought very heavy rain, widespread flooding, landslides, and strong winds to the [[Philippines]], Taiwan and areas of mainland China, causing 672 deaths and $4.4&nbsp;billion (2006 [[United States dollar|USD]]) in damage.<ref name="PRCreport">{{cite web | url=http://severe.worldweather.wmo.int/tcc/document/creport/Review_of_the_2006_Typhoon_Season(China).doc | title=Review of the 2006 Typhoon Season | date=[[2006-12-04]] | author=Typhoon Committee | publisher=[[World Meteorological Organization]]|format=DOC}}</ref>
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===Typhoon Kaemi (Glenda)===
3. A Wiki cache, similar to google, where editors can cache a page directly. This would be particularly useful if it could also cache a google cache.
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
|Basin=WPac
|Image=06W-Kaemi.jpg
|Track=Kaemi 2006 track.png
|Formed=[[July 19]]
|Dissipated=[[July 26]]
|10-min winds=80
|1-min winds=85
|Pressure=960
}}
A tropical depression formed on [[July 18]] near the [[Caroline Islands]], it quickly strengthened to tropical storm strength the same day. On [[July 19]], the storm was named Kaemi by the JMA. The correct name Gaemi was submitted by [[South Korea]] and is a [[Korean language|Korean]] word for [[ant]]. It strengthened into a severe tropical storm on [[July 20]], and further deepened into a typhoon 24 hours later. Kaemi made landfall in [[Jinjiang]], [[Fujian]] at 3:50 p.m. [[Chinese Standard Time|CST]] on [[July 25]] as a minimal typhoon.<ref>http://www.cma.gov.cn/cma_new/qxxw/t20060725_142067.phtml</ref>


Heavy rainfall in Taiwan caused flooding and four minor injuries. Rain also fell heavily in the northern Philippines.<ref name="trmm">[http://trmm.gsfc.nasa.gov/publications_dir/kaemi_july06.html Trmm Sees Typhoon Kaemi<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref> The storm has also killed at least 32&nbsp;people in [[China]], while another 60&nbsp;people are missing.<ref name="scotsman">http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=1095622006</ref>
The best solution is 3, as it does not require any other editor participation or endorsement. 1 and 2 don't need any developer work, and could be instituted immediately. There could be a combination of these.
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===Typhoon Prapiroon (Henry)===
'''''[[User:Tyrenius|<font color="#880088">Ty</font>]]''''' 09:00, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
|Basin=WPac
|Image=Typhoon prapiroon 2006.jpg
|Track=Prapiroon 2006 track.png
|Formed=[[August 1]]
|Dissipated=[[August 5]]
|10-min winds=65
|1-min winds=70
|Pressure=970
}}
PAGASA named a system east of the [[Philippines]] as Tropical Depression Henry later on the same day that the JMA recognised it as a tropical depression on [[July 28]]. The JTWC upgraded this system to a tropical storm on the morning of [[August 1]]. [[Hong Kong Observatory]] also did so and issued the Tropical Cyclone Signal No. 1 that same afternoon, and shortly after the JMA upgraded the system to Tropical Storm Prapiroon. The name Prapiroon was submitted by [[Thailand]] and is the name of a Thai rain deity. The JMA upgraded the storm to a severe tropical storm on the morning of [[August 2]]. PAGASA ceased advisories on the storm shortly after as it moved out of its area of responsibility. The JTWC and the HKO upgraded Prapiroon to a typhoon at 3 a.m. [[UTC]], while the JMA officially upgraded it to a typhoon at 12 p.m. UTC (8 p.m. [[Hong Kong Time|HKT]]). Prapiroon necessitated the first Tropical Cyclone Signal No. 8 in Macau this year.<ref>{{languageicon|zh|Chinese}} http://hk.news.yahoo.com/060803/12/1qxe7.html, Ming Pao </ref> In Hong Kong, the flag raising ceremony at the Golden Bauhinia Square was cancelled due to strong wind.<ref>[http://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/200608/03/P200608030083.htm Flag raising ceremony cancelled<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref> Prapiroon made landfall at 7:20 p.m. [[Chinese Standard Time|CST]] on [[August 3]].<ref>http://www.cma.gov.cn/cma_new/tqyb/zhyj/t20060804_143710.phtml</ref>


The strong winds due to the storm resulted in 70% of flights being cancelled, delayed or diverted in the [[Hong Kong International Airport]], the highest since the opening in 1999. However, the airport remained open throughout the storm passage and many flights successfully landed or took off on [[August 3]].<ref>http://hk.news.yahoo.com/060803/12/1qx33.html</ref> Inbound flights were rerouted to nearby airports and outbound flights were cancelled or postponed.<ref>http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2006/8/2/worldupdates/2006-08-02T130644Z_01_NOOTR_RTRJONC_0_-262076-1&sec=Worldupdates</ref> On landfall in [[Guangdong]] province, [[China]], it forced the evacuation of some 660,000&nbsp;people and caused an estimated 5.4&nbsp;billion Chinese yuan worth of damage. 77&nbsp;people were reported killed.<ref>[http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-08/06/content_4925398.htm Xinhua - English<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref> It also affected [[Hunan]], [[Guangxi]] and [[Hainan]]. Prapiroon degenerated into an area of low pressure on [[August 6]].
:I share '''''[[User:Tyrenius|<font color="#880088">Ty</font>]]''''''s concern about cited web pages disappearing. Some topics are mainly covered by web pages, and articles on these topics risk being left unreferenced in a few year's time.
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:Option 3 looks best, as it's hard to tell in advance how much detial wil be needed, e.g a Ga /. FA reviewer might want to check that an article paraphrases a source correctly and does not select only passages that favour a POV.
:A wiki cache could be implemented by a bot. The bot should only cache pages the first time they are referenced, as they may be later taken over by advertisers / domain resellers. The bot should:
:*exclude citations that have an ISBN, DOI, PMID or other reference number that identifies an alternative route to the information.
:*exclude web pages that have an ISBN, DOI, PMID or other reference number; but insert these reference numbers into citations if they are not already present.
:The greatest difficulty for a bot would be multi-page web articles such as those at Findarticles.com - I'm still trying to think of a solution for that. -- [[User:Philcha|Philcha]] ([[User talk:Philcha|talk]]) 09:54, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


===Typhoon Maria===
::I was envisaging a more modest proposal, where the wiki caching would only take place when a user initiated it, as there's no need to wiki-cache refs that are likely to be available indefinitely. In the case of manual caching, multi-page articles could be done one at a time. '''''[[User:Tyrenius|<font color="#880088">Ty</font>]]''''' 11:22, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
|Basin=WPac
|Image=Typhoon maria 2006.jpg
|Track=Maria 2006 track.png
|Formed=[[August 5]]
|Dissipated=[[August 10]]
|10-min winds=70
|1-min winds=60
|Pressure=975
}}
JMA identified a tropical depression southwest of [[Minami Torishima]] on [[August 4]] and began issuing advisories. On [[August 5]], the system had sufficiently strengthened to be named Tropical Storm Maria. The name Maria was submitted by the [[United States]] and is a common [[Chamorro people|Chamorro]] feminine [[given name|name]].


The JTWC designated this system as a tropical depression later that day before upgrading it to a tropical storm on [[August 6]], while the JMA upgraded it to a severe tropical storm at 6 a.m. [[UTC]]. Maria turned to the north, threatening [[Japan]]'s mainland. JTWC briefly upgraded Maria to a typhoon on [[August 7]], but issued its final advisory two days later as it started to turn extratropical. In the post season, the JTWC downgraded Maria to a Tropical Storm.
:::How can editors judge which refs "are likely to be available indefinitely"? Some sites go off-line without notice. Many of the online mags drop pages completely after a couple of years; this is most common in "popular culture" subjects, e.g. computer games. A few academic mags move pages to archives, and I've recently had to contact one of these to tell them that the archive entry for the article I wanted linked to the wrong article. -- [[User:Philcha|Philcha]] ([[User talk:Philcha|talk]]) 11:44, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
::::That's up to editors to judge. You have given examples where they are not likely to be available indefinitely, so may well need to be cached. Likely to be available for example are [[Hansard]] and ''[[The Times]]'' (the latter available from more than one source from 1785). Items already cached in [http://www.archive.org the web archive] would presumably not need to be cached on wiki as well, unless there is a prospect of that project disappearing. Some refs are not particularly critical; some have information duplicated in other sources, e.g. a newspaper carrying a syndicated story. I'm not against caching every ref on wiki, but I don't think it's essential. '''''[[User:Tyrenius|<font color="#880088">Ty</font>]]''''' 12:13, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
:::Also, not all editors will have the know-how or will to follow all these steps manually. [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 11:58, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
::::There aren't any steps yet, as there isn't any system in place. It could be as simple as editing a URL and clicking a button. '''''[[User:Tyrenius|<font color="#880088">Ty</font>]]''''' 12:14, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
:Wouldn't a cache cause serious copyright issues? I know Google is willing to push the boundaries of fair use, but since we're a free content project, we should take a more cautious approach. Perhaps a collaboration with the Internet Archive would be a better idea, where we could ask them to go through our references and make sure their archive includes those links. <small><font color="AE1C28">[[User:Jacoplane|JACO]]</font><font color="#21468B">[[User_talk:Jacoplane|PLANE]]</font> &bull; 2008-09-13 12:03</small>
::Far less copyright issues than google, which is a commercial entity. It's a service already offered by [http://www.webcitation.org/ WebCite]. Cached refs could be marked "No Index", and only be accessible to users when the original source became unavailable. '''''[[User:Tyrenius|<font color="#880088">Ty</font>]]''''' 12:20, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
:::This is an itneresting proposal; it would be possible to implement a very simple system whereby a source could be copied onto the toolserver – obviously the text cannot be released under the [[GDFL]] so cannot be placed on Wikipedia. (I won't comment on the potential space issues.) But I think that copyright is the main concern. Sites such as google's cache and waybackmachine are the only reason I think there's even the slimmest chance that we could take it further. Many papers are freely available for reading under the condition that "no further copies can be made". I would suggest raising a query at [[Wikipedia:Copyright_assistance]], as hopefully an expert will be able to tell us how to work the loopholes. I for one would be reluctant to begin to create a bot for this purpose without assurance that I wouldn't be bringing on a huge copyright lawsuit from all the major publishers! [[User:Smith609|Martin]]&nbsp;'''<small>([[User:Smith609|Smith609]]&nbsp;–&nbsp;[[User_talk:Smith609|Talk]])</small>''' 14:46, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
::: I was going to mention [http://www.webcitation.org/ WebCite]. If someone is concerned that a reference is going to go away, why not just use WebCite directly instead of reinventing it? [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 15:03, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
::::Some pages don't archive on WebCite. I've tried to use it to archive a google cache and it rejects it. '''''[[User:Tyrenius|<font color="#880088">Ty</font>]]''''' 15:23, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
:As a counterpoint, if a web site, which in all other ways is considered reliable, but yet does not archive pages as a matter of practice (this being different from an accidental loss of date) , can that site really be called "reliable"? There's a reason that print sources, whenever possible, are preferred over web ones in that there's always (at least, in the practical future) a copy of the print version. I'm not saying that sites that use robots.txt or other methods to block caches or archive.org aren't a problem, as long as they keep their own material around. Those that don't... that's a questionable issue. --[[User:Masem|M<font size="-3">ASEM</font>]] 15:14, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
::Reliability, in wp referencing terms, refers to quality of content, not whether or not a site then keeps that content forever. That's an entirely different type of reliability. Sites choose not to archive either all or some of their content, for a whole variety of reasons. Maybe it's no longer of use for them, but that doesn't mean it's no longer of use for us. '''''[[User:Tyrenius|<font color="#880088">Ty</font>]]''''' 15:36, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
:::I do realize our current definition of reliability says nothing about archiving, nor am I saying it has to; I guess I'm bringing up the point for thought: should retention be considered as part of our definition of reliable? Should we be relying on web caches for reference content? --[[User:Masem|M<font size="-3">ASEM</font>]] 16:00, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
::::Reliable sources can include difficult to access books and even user-generated translations of foreign language content, so I'd say no, retention and accessibility are not our primary concerns when judging if a source is reliable, just authority. It is, however, going to be an increasingly significant problem as time passes. Archival of the sources for at least our featured content should probably be considered an important goal. --[[User:erachima|erachima]] <small>[[User talk:erachima|talk]]</small> 16:16, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


In post-operational analysis, the JMA upgraded Maria to a 70-kt typhoon.
::Print sources have their drawbacks, e.g. how often does a reviewer have the books already? More seriously Wikipedia has a lot of articles about notable topics in what could be called "popular culture", where most of the sources are web-based - the examples I'm most familiar with are computer games (and chess, to a lesser extent), but I'm sure there must be a good 100 other categories. FAs in these categories could be down-graded to "C" or even "start" class if cited pages vanish.
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::[http://www.webcitation.org/ WebCite] has 2 drawbacks from this point of view: it archives only pages that the authors / publishers have thought to archive; and it expects publishers to pay for at least some aspects of its service ([http://www.webcitation.org/faq WebCite FAQ]), which will deter some.
::From the point of view of coverage, I think [http://www.archive.org/index.php Internet Archive (Wayback Machine)] is a better bet: it's not academically oriented; it's free; and it's crawler driven, although the crawler is Alexa.
::Re copyright, [http://www.archive.org/about/about.php#5 Internet Archive's info] is rather scanty, but [http://www.webcitation.org/faq WebCite FAQ] refers to a case [http://www.webcitation.org/query?id=1138565968295754 Field vs Google], US District Court, District of Nevada, CV-S-04-0413-RCJ-LRL, which ruled that caching does not constitute a copyright violation, because of fair use and an implied license.
::If we relied on either of these archives, there would still be a question of what monitoring would be required. 404s and other HTTP "error" codes are easy. The problem is URLs that are taken over by advertisers / domain resellers - these often use HTTP 301 redirects to a single "sales" page, so 301s can't be trusted. I can't think right now of a way to at least semi-automate this kind of checking, and hope someone else can. -- [[User:Philcha|Philcha]] ([[User talk:Philcha|talk]]) 15:48, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


===Typhoon Saomai (Juan)===
:Options 1 and 2 seem like too much overhead. Adding refs is difficult enough, with the tags and templates. Making people "register" their refs on a noticeboard would be way too much work. There's no way to make it mandatory, and if its optional, it will probably be rarely used. Option 3 has issues with copyright, and also storage capacity. Wikipedia probably has several million external links, even if only 1% are references, that's still tons of server space. In some cases, such as an online version of print media, maintaining a link isn't necessary. Its helpful, but only the details of the original publication are necessary. <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 16:09, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
::I'm not suggesting a mandatory system, but an optional one for editors who wish to use it and have a concern that an important ref may go missing and thereby cause an invalidation of content. This would apply where the only available reference was online, not to a duplication of print media. If it is rarely used, then 1 and 2 will have very little overhead, but can fulfil an invaluable function in certain instances. The web archive often does not deep index pages or has a gap in indexing which misses out an updated page. It is also not possible to tell for 6 months or so whether it is in the web archive or not. I don't see this as being a problem for server space, as developers have said that should not be a consideration for policy, and their job is to make sure the technical backup meets the needs of the project. If it is a problem, they can tell us. The bottom line is that there can be a perfectly valid ref with important content that suddenly vanishes (this happened to me with ''[[The Times]]'' and, despite emails, I couldn't get it fixed). The content shouldn't be compromised over a technicality, which can be easy enough to fix. '''''[[User:Tyrenius|<font color="#880088">Ty</font>]]''''' 22:56, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
|Basin=WPac
:::Server space shouldn't normally be a consideration for policy, but most policy proposals don't involve adding creating a massive database of text. Also, many newspapers remove articles from public access after a certain time, so that only people with paid subscriptions can read them. Bypassing this by storing an indefinite cache on our servers accessible to all seems like it would most certainly be illegal. <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 04:59, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
|Image=Typhoon saomai 2006.jpg
::::I was going to say this, but someone already did. Most proposals don't involve the sheer hugeness of disk space that you'd be talking about, especially if you're going to retain formatting. But, aside from that, remember that the content we are referencing is not free. It is written by someone with a copyright to that content; ''that'' is the bottom line, and we have to deal with it. We can't just copy other people's work without permission (even with permission, really, if we want to keep with our ideals) because it works best for us. <font color="629632">[[User:Celarnor|'''Celarnor''']]</font> <sup><font color="7733ff">[[User_talk:Celarnor|Talk to me]]</font></sup> 06:47, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
|Track=Saomai 2006 track.png
:I agree with Z-man. 1 and 2 seem like they take far too much overhead, and option 3 isn't very likely to work in the US copyright system. <font color="629632">[[User:Celarnor|'''Celarnor''']]</font> <sup><font color="7733ff">[[User_talk:Celarnor|Talk to me]]</font></sup> 00:58, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
|Formed=[[August 5]]
::If you agree with Z-man, it won't take much overhead at all, because "if its optional, it will probably be rarely used," so it will be a resource to save some rare refs. The precedents for use in the copyright system have already been pointed out, namely google, web archive and web cite. Wikipedia is in much safer position than a commercial entity such as google. Do you have a an alternative suggestion to deal with this issue? '''''[[User:Tyrenius|<font color="#880088">Ty</font>]]''''' 04:01, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
|Dissipated=[[August 11]]
:::Just a note, where Google and [[Internet Archive]] have court cases and specific exemptions (respectively), neither [[WebCite]] (to my knowledge) nor Wikipedia have either of these. I'd rather not get into changing Wikipedia into a resource for copyrighted full pages: Just use links to archive.org if you must. [[User:Kylu|Kylu]] ([[User talk:Kylu|talk]]) 05:34, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
|10-min winds=105
::::That does not solve the problem of content created with valid refs that disappear and are not on archive.org. Suggestion 1 does not involve storing any material at all, and suggestion 2 only a minimal relevant amount. '''''[[User:Tyrenius|<font color="#880088">Ty</font>]]''''' 06:15, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
|1-min winds=140
:::::Do you really think your first suggestion would be of much use? I don't imagine very many people utilizing it; however, I do think that is the only remotely viable one of the three. <font color="629632">[[User:Celarnor|'''Celarnor''']]</font> <sup><font color="7733ff">[[User_talk:Celarnor|Talk to me]]</font></sup> 06:43, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
|Pressure=925
::::A 'solution' that opens the project up to civil suits from the owners of each and every external link cached in such a manner does not seem to be a solution in my eyes. Google has an exemption as a search engine; courts have specifically ruled that by putting your content up on the internet, you grant an implied license for purposes of locating your content via a search engine; I'm not familiar with the particulars of the IA case, but I imagine there are similar restraints regarding whatever implied license is granted for caching therein; Wikipedia would be using these for an express purpose outside of the scope of either one of those.
}}
::::Please remember that that Wikipedia exists in the Real World (unfortunately, the United States), and we have to abide by whatever copyright laws, no matter how draconian, apply to where our servers are. We can't simply ignore them and store other people's content because it's convenient for us to do so. <font color="629632">[[User:Celarnor|'''Celarnor''']]</font> <sup><font color="7733ff">[[User_talk:Celarnor|Talk to me]]</font></sup> 06:43, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
{{hurricane main|Typhoon Saomai}}
The JTWC identified a tropical depression near the [[Caroline Islands]] late on [[August 4]] [[UTC]]. The JMA designated it as such at 12 a.m. [[UTC]] [[August 5]]. Nine hours later, the JTWC upgraded Tropical Depression 08W to a tropical storm, three hours before the JMA named it Saomai. The name is from the [[Vietnamese language|Vietnamese]] "[[:vi:Sao Kim|sao Mai]]", meaning "Morning Star",<ref>[http://vdict.com/?dictionary=2&word=sao+mai&typings=-1&quickm=0&autoc=0&liststring=&submit2=Lookup VDict.com - Vietnamese Dictionary and Translation<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref> a reference to the planet [[Venus]].


The JTWC designated it a typhoon at 3 p.m. [[UTC]] [[August 6]]. The JMA upgraded Saomai to a Severe Tropical Storm at 6 p.m. [[UTC]], and as it continued to strengthen, it was upgraded to a typhoon just 12 hours later. Saomai passed into the Area of Responsibility of PAGASA on [[August 8]] and was named Typhoon Juan by PAGASA. On [[August 8]], the storm underwent explosive development, and by [[August 9]] it had become a Category&nbsp;5-equivalent super typhoon.
I agree with the motivation, particularly re. pages describing modern technology, since they are likely to become obsolete and be taken down or changed. (How many web-based references will you find for the ISA bus these days? What about MCA?) However, is there a reason that the archives at [http://www.archive.org archive.org] aren't suitable or sufficient? Perhaps WF could work together with archive.org to ensure that the pages referenced here, even the specific versions referenced here, are archived. Could WP's software automatically add links to the archive.org copies of linked pages? [[User:Jeh|Jeh]] ([[User talk:Jeh|talk]]) 17:09, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
:Archive.org is limited in that it won't necessarily cache the page you need, and that even if it does, the lag time before it becomes available can be critically detrimental; for example, an ''[[Edge (magazine)|Edge]]'' ref went dead, and this affected 3 video game FAs; that was two months ago, and without a cache, we'd still be waiting for archive.org to (possibly) check it. <font color="#cc6600">[[User:David Fuchs|Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs]]</font><sup> <nowiki>(</nowiki><small><font color="#993300">[[User talk:David Fuchs|talk]]</font></small><nowiki>)</nowiki></sup> 22:59, 15 September 2008 (UTC)


Saomai made landfall in [[Zhejiang]], [[People's Republic of China|China]] on [[August 10]] with maximum sustained winds of 115 [[knot (speed)|knot]]s (1-minute mean), stronger than Chanchu earlier this season.<ref>http://www.nmc.gov.cn/news/viewArticle.do?method=viewArticle&id=ff8080810cf70fba010cf76b61770002</ref> Saomai was responsible for at least 458 deaths, mostly in China, and $2.5&nbsp;billion (2006&nbsp;USD) in damage.<ref name="PRCreport"/>
:: That is why I suggested "perhaps WF could work together with archive.org to ensure that pages referenced here, even the specific versions referenced here, are archived." Let archive.org handle the copyright issues; they apparently are doing so already. [[User:Jeh|Jeh]] ([[User talk:Jeh|talk]]) 12:56, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
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===Severe Tropical Storm Bopha (Inday)===
:Yes, I [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Video_games#Proposed_archive_for_cited_web_pages proposed] this in WP:VG. If there were a way to predict beforehand what the URL to an archive would be, then we could simply add the link to the future archived version when making the citation. [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 01:54, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
|Basin=WPac
|Image=STS Bopha 2006.jpg
|Track=Bopha 2006 track.png
|Formed=[[August 6]]
|Dissipated=[[August 9]]
|10-min winds=55
|1-min winds=55
|Pressure=980
}}
The JMA identified a tropical depression in the open Pacific on [[August 5]]. PAGASA named this storm late on [[August 5]] as it was forecast to enhance the southwest [[monsoon]] and bring rains to the [[Philippines]]. JMA upgraded it to Tropical Storm Bopha on [[August 6]]. The name Bopha was submitted by [[Cambodia]] and is a flower and girls' name.


The JTWC recognised its existence as a tropical depression at 9 a.m. UTC the same day before upgrading it to a tropical storm at 3 p.m. [[UTC]]. The JMA then upgraded it to a severe tropical storm as it slowly churned westwards at 12 a.m. [[UTC]] [[August 7]] before downgrading it 18 hours later. Bopha unexpectedly restrengthened into a severe tropical storm at 3 a.m. [[UTC]] [[August 8]], before weakening back to a tropical storm at 12 p.m. [[UTC]].
::That is a good idea. However, my original motivation was because of a ref that had disappeared but was still available on google, although not necessarily forever. I don't think webarchive caches the whole of the google cache. Could the people above who have opposed the intitial suggestions kindly come up with a solution themselves. Or do we just watch refs slip away in these cases and delete valid content? There is a relevant discussion at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Citing_sources#Cited_news_story_is_removed.3B_now_what.3F.3F.3F Citing sources]. '''''[[User:Tyrenius|<font color="#880088">Ty</font>]]''''' 01:33, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


Bopha later made landfall on [[Taiwan]] at about 2 a.m. local time on [[August 9]]. Tropical Storm Bopha then weakened into a tropical depression before degenerating into a remnant low on [[August 10]].
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===Severe Tropical Storm Wukong===
FYI, a cache system was put in place on the French Wikipedia several weeks ago. It is provided by Linterweb, the company that operates the [[Wikiwix]] search engine.
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
Briefly, external links added to articles are automatically cached; a link to the cached version is displayed near the corresponding external link (see [[:Image:Capture-cache-wikiwix.JPG]]). Currently, only registered users can see these links by editing their monobook.js, but there's a [[:fr:Wikipédia:Prise de décision/Système de cache|vote]] to decide whether they should be displayed by default for all users.
|Basin=WPac
For more information, see [[:fr:Utilisateur:Pmartin/Cache]] ([http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Ffr.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FUtilisateur%3APmartin%2FCache&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=fr&tl=en translation]) and [[:fr:Discussion Wikipédia:Prise de décision/Système de cache#Le projet cache]] ([http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Ffr.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FDiscussion_Wikip%25C3%25A9dia%3APrise_de_d%25C3%25A9cision%2FSyst%25C3%25A8me_de_cache%23Le_projet_cache&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=fr&tl=en translation]). [[User:Korg|Korg]] ([[User talk:Korg|talk]]) 19:45, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
|Image=Tropical Storm Wukong 2006-08-12 lrg.jpg
|Track=Wukong 2006 track.png
|Formed=[[August 13]]
|Dissipated=[[August 19]]
|10-min winds=50
|1-min winds=55
|Pressure=980
}}
A tropical depression (11W from the JTWC) formed south of [[Iwo Jima]] on [[August 12]]. Early on [[August 13]], as it moved to the north-northwest, the JTWC upgraded it to a tropical storm. The JMA named it Wukong later that day. [[Sun Wukong|Wukong]] was submitted by [[People's Republic of China]], and it is the name of a character in a Chinese epic. Wukong absorbed Tropical Storm Sonamu shortly before landfall in [[Japan]]. Wukong then stalled over [[Kyūshū]], before starting to jog to the north-northwest. It was downgraded to a tropical depression on [[August 20]].


In post-operational analysis by the JMA, Wukong was upgraded to a severe tropical storm.
:''Some pages don't archive on WebCite. I've tried to use it to archive a google cache and it rejects it.'' Before we think about building what is essentially a duplicate of [[WebCite]], it would be useful to know a bit more than that it does not archive 100% of what is requested there. If it accepts 99%, for example, then we should be thinking about an automated system (bot?) for archiving, and only after that is in place do we need to worry about the remaining 1%.
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===Tropical Storm Sonamu (Katring)===
:To me, the most challenging issue here is newspapers that put their stories on the web for free (with advertising) for only a limited time (sometimes as little as a week), and then ''sell'' access to the stories thereafter. Typically the URL changes; mostly (I think) the old URL doesn't even link to the new one (often because the archive sales site is a third party). Such stories are problematical because if Wikipedia keeps copies, the newspaper isn't going to be happy at all.
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
|Basin=WPac
|Image=TS Sonamu 2006.jpg
|Track=Sonamu 2006 track.png
|Formed=[[August 14]]
|Dissipated=[[August 15]]
|10-min winds=35
|1-min winds=45
|Pressure=992
}}
On [[August 13]], a tropical depression formed south of [[Naha, Okinawa]], and was named Katring by PAGASA and Sonamu by JMA. The name Sonamu was submitted by [[North Korea|DPR Korea]] and signifies a [[pine|pine tree]]. Sonamu began [[Fujiwhara interaction|interacting]] with nearby Tropical Storm Wukong on [[August 15]], with the outflow from the stronger Wukong producing unfavourable shear over the cyclone. The JMA declared the system a tropical depression and stopped issuing advisories on [[August 16]]. The JTWC followed shortly after.
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===Typhoon Ioke===
:I think options 1 and 2 are non-starters. Option 1 would require a huge amount of editor time (time much better spent actually improving articles), and is likely to be plagued with a lack of endorsers (unless we really have a lot of people who want to do such drudgery), not to mention sock-puppet endorsements of bogus cites. Option 2 is an encouragement for egregious copyright violations. -- <font style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </font> [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 14:43, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
|Basin=WPac
|Image=Typhoon Ioke Over Wake 2006.jpg
|Track=Ioke 2006 track.png
|Formed=[[August 27]]
|Dissipated=[[September 6]]
|10-min winds=105
|1-min winds=140
|Pressure=920
}}
{{hurricane main|Hurricane Ioke}}
On [[August 27]], [[2006 Pacific hurricane season#Hurricane Ioke|Hurricane Ioke]], which had formed in the Central Pacific, crossed the [[International Date Line]] and entered the [[Japan Meteorological Agency]]'s Area of Responsibility at around 6 a.m. [[UTC]], keeping its name while being reclassified as Typhoon Ioke. Ioke had earlier affected [[Johnston Atoll]]. On [[August 31]] the center of the typhoon passed very close to [[Wake Island]]; 200&nbsp;people were evacuated from there in advance of its approach.<ref>[http://www.khnl.com/Global/story.asp?S=5331801 Hickam Airman To Evacuate Hundreds From Wake Island<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref> Typhoon Ioke then passed just to the northeast of [[Minami Torishima]], which had been evacuated ahead of the storm, but as a weakened Category&nbsp;3-equivalent typhoon. Ioke then turned to the northeast, weakening as it started undergoing extratropical transition. The JMA released its final advisory on [[September 7]]. The [[Extratropical cyclone|extratropical]] remnants of Ioke moved into the [[Bering Sea]] where it caused severe beach [[erosion]] along the western [[Alaska]]n coastline.<ref name="Alaska">{{cite news|author=Angela Hutti|year=2006|title=Storm on the Bering Sea|publisher=KTVA 11|accessdate=2006-09-08|url=http://www.ktva.com/topstory/ci_4303106}}</ref>
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===Typhoon Shanshan (Luis)===
::There is option 4, namely that if material is referenced and the ref link is later found to be dead, it is accepted that it was viable at the time the material was inserted and kept in place, maybe marked as "expired". The current system means that if a link goes dead and for some reason cannot be found elsewhere, then the information can be removed, which seems a nonsensical approach. I would like to point out that my initial suggestions were intended for exceptional cases, not to be applied across the board. Also, to avoid copyvios, for which concern has been expressed, cached references could even be deleted, so that they would be retrievable by admins if necessary. '''''[[User:Tyrenius|<font color="#880088">Ty</font>]]''''' 23:58, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
|Basin=WPac
|Image=TyphoonShanshan-NRL16-9-06-modisvis250m.jpg
|Track=Shanshan 2006 track.png
|Formed=[[September 10]]
|Dissipated=[[September 18]]
|10-min winds=110
|1-min winds=120
|Pressure=919
}}
{{hurricane main|Typhoon Shanshan (2006)}}
Hong Kong Observatory identified a tropical depression about 460&nbsp;kilometres north of Yap on [[September 9]], the same day the JMA recognised it. The JTWC declared the formation of Tropical Depression 14W the next day. On the afternoon of [[September 10]], it entered the PAGASA AOR and was named Luis. Later at 12 p.m. [[UTC]] on the same day, the JMA upgraded the tropical depression to Tropical Storm Shanshan. The name Shanshan was contributed by [[Hong Kong]] and is a girls' [[given name|name]]. Shanshan quickly strengthened and was upgraded into a severe tropical storm on [[September 11]] and a typhoon later that day. Shanshan weakened slightly on [[September 14]], but quickly restrengthened and reached Category&nbsp;4 status on the JTWC's scale. Shanshan passed through the [[Yaeyama Islands]] in the early morning hours of [[September 16]]. The JTWC reported that Shanshan was becoming [[extratropical cyclone|extratropical]] early on [[September 17]], as the typhoon weakened to a tropical storm. The JTWC issued its final advisory on Shanshan later that day, and the JMA issued its last advisory on [[September 19]], after Shanshan completed extratropical transition.


As Shanshan neared [[Taiwan]], the [[Central Weather Bureau]] and local officials warned of flooding and high winds. However, as Shanshan turned towards [[Japan]], all warnings were cancelled. [[South Korea]]n forecasters also issued warnings ahead of an expected landfall, but this did not materialise. Ships were diverted as ports were closed as a precaution, while some other boats were forced to remain docked.<ref>http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200609/17/200609172213525709900090409041.html</ref> In [[Japan]], more than 90,000&nbsp;people were evacuated from [[Yamaguchi Prefecture]].<ref name=autogenerated1>[http://www.topix.net/content/newscom/1057959765296100991311804140910322877786]{{Dead link|date=March 2008}}</ref>
:::Then we would have vandals inserting plausible sounding hoaxes which we couldn't verify because they marked the info as having a source that expired. [[User:Abyssal|Abyssal]] ([[User talk:Abyssal|talk]]) 00:40, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
:::: Do note there is quite a difference between "long-standing reference goes dead" and "reference added this morning is already dead". [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 02:30, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::Yeah, but how would that difference show up ''in the article itself''? What aspect of the proposed change prevents some person from adding a hoaxed source and then immedately marking it as expired?[[User:Abyssal|Abyssal]] ([[User talk:Abyssal|talk]]) 10:10, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::: What prevents someone from making up a quote from an obscure book, and so on? If you look in the history and see it was first added and marked expired on the same date, you would be suspicious. Or possibly more likely, people watching the article will see the addition in their watchlists and revert it right away. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 15:55, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Matters on wiki are often ones of judgement. That is the case here. If an established editor with a good record has used a ref and some time later it expires, having not been challenged in the meantime, then it would be counter-productive to start deleting material on that basis—especially if the person deleting obviously has a grudge against the article, a case which I have experienced. '''''[[User:Tyrenius|<font color="#880088">Ty</font>]]''''' 09:18, 10 October 2008 (UTC)


Over 200&nbsp;people were injured by Shanshan and 11&nbsp;people were killed, mostly in [[Kyūshū]], although two deaths were reported in [[South Korea]]. A tornado spawned by the typhoon caused a train derailment in [[Nobeoka, Miyazaki]], [[Japan]] which caused no fatalities.<ref name="Nobeoka">http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/national/news/20060917it12.htm</ref> Peak gusts on [[Iriomote]] reached 155&nbsp;mph (248&nbsp;km/h).<ref name=autogenerated1 /> Flights and trains were delayed, while electricity was cut to about 3000 homes in Korea. A ship also sank off [[Ulleungdo]].<ref>http://sg.news.yahoo.com/060918/1/43hma.html</ref>
== The ever growing list of stub templates & categories ==
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===Typhoon Yagi===
'''Problem'''.
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
We have this [[WP:SC|huge list of stub templates]], which seems to ever grow longer, and is basically used to categorize "stubs". However we already have a category system, which as far as I can tell is perfectly fine (maybe not browsing them though, see below). So in essence we have two overlapping categorization systems which leads to duplicate work by the Wikipedians who perform the already pretty tedious tasks of handling new/raw articles. Besides, the stub categorization is not as comprehensive as regular categories.
|Basin=WPac
|Image=TyphoonYagi2006.jpg
|Track=Yagi 2006 track.png
|Formed=[[September 17]]
|Dissipated=[[September 25]]
|10-min winds=105
|1-min winds=140
|Pressure=910
}}
The [[Joint Typhoon Warning Center]] identified an area of disturbed weather northeast of [[Chuuk]] on [[September 13]]. The disturbance drifted to the north over the next few days, gradually increasing in organization. The JTWC issued a [[Tropical Cyclone Formation Alert]] on the disturbance on [[September 16]], and both the JTWC and JMA declared the system a tropical depression early on [[September 17]]. The JMA upgraded it to Tropical Storm Yagi later that morning as it moved erratically through the open Pacific Ocean, and the JTWC soon followed suit. The name Yagi was submitted by [[Japan]] and means [[Capricornus]] (goat). Yagi was upgraded to a severe tropical storm by the JMA on [[September 18]], and the JTWC designated it a typhoon later that day. The JMA officially upgraded Yagi to typhoon status early on [[September 19]]. Yagi was upgraded briefly to a super typhoon by the JTWC from [[September 21]] to [[September 22]]. On [[September 23]], the JTWC reported that Yagi was becoming [[extratropical cyclone|extratropical]] as it continued to weaken, and issued its final warning the next day. The JMA downgraded Yagi to a severe tropical storm on [[September 24]]. It was the third tropical cyclone in the NW Pacific Basin that attained Category&nbsp;5 status in 2006. It started to recurve near [[Chichi-jima]], and never affected major land areas. It became [[extratropical cyclone|extratropical]] near the western [[Aleutian Islands|Aleutians]] on [[September 25]].
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===Typhoon Xangsane (Milenyo)===
'''Proposal 1'''.
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
* Divorce "stubs" from categorization. The relevant information is that the article is a stub, categorization provides the information for sorting.
|Basin=WPac
* Improve category browsing, so filtering stubs in & out is possible.
|Image=Typhoon Xangsane 27 sept 2006.jpg
|Track=Xangsane 2006 track.png
|Formed=[[September 26]]
|Dissipated=[[October 2]]
|10-min winds=85
|1-min winds=125
|Pressure=940
}}
{{hurricane main|Typhoon Xangsane}}
On [[September 25]], the [[Philippine Atmospheric, Geophysical and Astronomical Services Administration]] (PAGASA) named an active low pressure area within its area of responsibility Tropical Depression Milenyo. After issuing a [[Tropical Cyclone Formation Alert]] earlier, the [[Joint Typhoon Warning Center]] issued its first warning on Tropical Depression 18W. On [[September 26]] the [[Japan Meteorological Agency]] named this system Xangsane. The name Xangsane was submitted by [[Laos]] and means [[elephant]]. Later that day, the JMA upgraded Xangsane to a severe tropical storm. A bout of rapid intensification followed, and all three agencies, the JMA, JTWC and PAGASA all upgraded the storm to a typhoon late on [[September 26]] or early [[September 27]]. Xangsane made landfall on [[Samar Island]] as a severe tropical storm.


The typhoon dropped heavy rainfall in the [[Philippines]]. To avoid the storm, transit authorities kept seacraft at several ports in the archipelago, leaving over 3,500 passengers stranded.<ref>[http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_2004589,00.html Thousands trapped by typhoon: World: News: News24<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref> Xangsane also prompted Philippine officials to close all schools, financial markets, and government offices in and around [[Manila]].<ref>[http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/topofthehour.aspx?StoryId=51594 ABS-CBN Interactive<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref> The typhoon killed over 200&nbsp;people in the country, and produced strong winds and rainfall, downing power lines and causing [[mudflow]]s. The strong winds caused moderate crop damage totaling to $7.2&nbsp;million (2006&nbsp;USD).<ref>http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/10/01/typhoon.vietnam.ap/index.html</ref>
<s>I would also like to point out that assessment of articles is pretty much generalized now to all articles on Wikipedia thanks to many wikiprojects, yet stubs seem to be a special case, which leads me to another related proposal:


Xangsane made landfall as a typhoon near [[Huế|Hue]] early on [[October 1]]. The JTWC stopped issuing advisories soon after, and the JMA downgraded it to a severe tropical storm. Xangsane killed 71 in [[Vietnam]].
'''Proposal 2'''
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* Harmonize the rating of articles. Stubs or featured articles, the idea is the same, it gives an indication as to the quality of an article. Sorting and browsing featured articles should be no different from sorting and browsing stubs.</s> Withdrawn per [[User:NVO|NVO]]'s rationale, I can see how that would not be viable. [[User:Equendil|Equendil]] <small>[[User talk:Equendil|''Talk'']]</small> 10:01, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


===Severe Tropical Storm Bebinca (Neneng)===
I leave the "how" aside on purpose for now, however [[Wikipedia:Category intersection]] might be relevant here. [[User:Equendil|Equendil]] <small>[[User talk:Equendil|''Talk'']]</small> 10:49, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
|Basin=WPac
|Image=Bebinca_TERRA_MODIS_04_Oct_02Z 2006.jpg
|Track=Bebinca 2006 track.png
|Formed=[[October 3]]
|Dissipated=[[October 6]]
|10-min winds=50
|1-min winds=35
|Pressure=980
}}
On [[October 1]], a persistent area of low pressure just east of the [[Philippines]] developed into Tropical Depression 19W. The JMA had already been monitoring the storm. It was named Neneng by PAGASA, and later that evening was upgraded to a tropical storm by the Philippine authorities. The JMA and JTWC both designated the storm a tropical storm the next day, and it was named Bebinca by the JMA. Bebinca is a type of [[Macau|Macanese]] milk [[pudding]].


The JTWC downgraded it to a tropical depression briefly between [[October 4]] and [[October 5]] as wind shear took its toll. Its low-level circulation then became exposed with dry air entering the system, and both the JMA and JTWC declared the storm as a dissipating tropical depression on [[October 6]]. It soon became entrained within the circulation of a storm-force [[extratropical cyclone|extratropical low]], which swept across the [[Honshū]] coastal waters and led to 33&nbsp;people dead or missing.<ref>{{languageicon|ja|Japanese}} http://www.data.kishou.go.jp/bosai/report/new/iyun_sokuji20061004-09.pdf</ref> It was upgraded to a severe tropical storm in post analysis.
: I agree with Proposal 1, and would support removing all the stub categories as soon as there is decent category-intersection browsing. [[User:Pseudomonas|Pseudomonas]]<sub>([[User talk:Pseudomonas|talk]])</sub> 11:37, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
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:: Second that. As for "harmonization", it requires an overhaul of present-day practice when a B grade is granted by a single editor at will, and A grades are issued within wikiprojects (very small groups). As long as this practice continues, there will be differences in treatment of different groups. I don't see how this can be remedied - there's too many A/B articles to be handled trough wikipedia-wide channels like FAR. It needs to be decentralized, so accept the inevitable. [[User:NVO|NVO]] ([[User talk:NVO|talk]]) 09:48, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
:::'''Agree with Proposal 1'''. The [[WP:SC|huge list of stub templates]] is a liability. We should only have one system of categorization. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 01:09, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::::As pointed out below, Proposal 1 would make the whole reason for having stubs - to make it easier for editors to find them - unworkable. There are very good reasons for having two separate category systems, a stub one for editors and a permanent one for readers, and this proposal would render the work of editors looking for a reasonable number of articles to sort through in order to find ones they can expand impossible. It may be a chore to sort stubs in the current way, but removing that system would bee a giant step backwards for ease of editability. I would hope that your support of this proposal is not due to your recent run-in with [[WP:WSS]], Kleinzach, but I would suggest that it became clear during that debate that you did not fully understand the reasons why stubs are sorted the way they are, and that could well be an explanation why you would think that Proposal 1 would work. It wouldn't - at least not in a way that would provide anything but a detriment to Wikipedia. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 01:18, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::See [[User:Equendil|Equendil]]'s proposal above. A competing system of categorization makes it more difficult for content-contributing editors to locate and maintain sets of articles. I've worked with stubs on five projects - ranging from one with no stub types at all, to one with 40+ (see [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Classical music/Stubs|here]]) - so I've had a lot of experience of this. One of the problems with the [[WP:WSS]] is the assumption by that project that they understand categorization better than the editors who are actually writing the articles. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 02:13, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Yes, it's Equendil's proposals I'm referring to. They simply won't work in the way that stubs do as far as enabling editors to find stub articles, for the reasons given below. And though you may have had a lot of experience at this, your recent discussions with WP:WSS made it clear you still don't really understand why stubs are sorted the way they are or how they are different from Stub-Class assessments. Equendil's propossals would work very well with Stub-Class assessed articles, but very poorly with stubs. As for WP:WSS's assumptions that they understand articles better than the wikiprojects working on those articles, there are two comments to make: 1) we don't - we regularly discuss the best way to split articles with the wikiprojects concerned (though it has to be admitted that sometimes these discussions have been accidentally missed), and 2) many, if not most, stub types are for areas in which there are no specific wikiprojects. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 05:09, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::And many of them cover multiple projects creating other problems. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 05:18, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::To the best of my knowledge, no editor has ''ever'' brought a complaint to WP:WSS relating to problems causedd by a stub template being used by multiple projects - if they had we would have striven to find a way around such problems. Quite the opposite is the case, in fact, using the same stub type for several projects tends to help when those projects need to work together on articles. You did mention that you found problems with stub types in use on different projects during recent discussions at WikiProject:Opera, but IIRC it was quickly pointed out by other members of both projects how it was actually an advantage, and the split of stubs relating to opera went ahead to the satisfaction of almost everyone related to that project. Again, the proposals laid out by Equendil would work beautifully with Stub-Class articles, which ''do'' relate directly to individual WikiProjects; they would however be ineffective with stubs. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 05:31, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::That's a mischaracterization of discussions elsewhere, but this is not the place for forensics. For the sake of other contributors, please keep on topic. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 05:48, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::My last sentence in the above, which pointed out again that the Proposal confuses and concatenates Stub-Class and stub, is exactly on topic, as it is an important point at the heart of the discussion on this proposal. As to the rest, I was simply replying to your comment about multiple projects using the same stub types - a comment which itself has no bearing whatsoever on the proposal, and is delightfully vague exactly what these supposed "other problems" are (problems which, as I said, have never been commented on at WP:WSS). If you would care to keep to the topic yourself, any responses I make will also be on topic. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 07:41, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
It's not the purpose of the system of stub types to be "comprehensive". The purpose is to enable sorting of stub-sized articles into categories of reasonable size, according to their primary notability. In order for this to be reified from the permcats directly, one would need not only category intersection, but also category union -- in arbitrary combination indeed; one would need the categories ''to already exist on all the articles in question'', and to have some way of indicating which of those categories are of primary topic-sorting significance. As none of those is presently the case, I don't see such an idea as being foreseeably viable.


===Tropical Storm Rumbia===
Stub-tagging and stub-sorting is also not about "grading" articles in the sense of the ever-more-byzantine "1.0" classification system (which introduced the "stub class article" concept many years ''after'' the guideline-defined idea of a "stub", without ever actually clarifying if they were the same or not). Unless the idea is simply to abolish the one in favour of the other, I strongly suggest keeping discussion of the two separate. [[User:Alai|Alai]] ([[User talk:Alai|talk]]) 16:39, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
:I agree - there is a large-scale misunderstanding over the several different uses the word "stub" has on wikipedia - the proposals above seem to be confounding two of them (stub and Stub-Class, which are entirely different things). Also, as Alai points out, the current system is designed primarily to provide stub categories of a size best suited to browsing by editors. Overhauling the system in the ways suggested would remove that and make the job of picking and choosing stubs to be expanded harder, not easier; an editor might have to search through several permcats to find even a handful of stubs on a relevant subject, whereas now every stub category, theoretically at least, should have between about 60 and 600 articles. Though stub-sorting is a chore, it does provide benefits for editors that the proposals would lose. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 23:10, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
|Basin=WPac
:Support prop 1; this definitely annoys the heck out of me and I agree with the rationales provided. <font color="#cc6600">[[User:David Fuchs|Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs]]</font><sup> <nowiki>(</nowiki><small><font color="#993300">[[User talk:David Fuchs|talk]]</font></small><nowiki>)</nowiki></sup> 01:17, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
|Image=97W Rumbia 03 Oct 2006 03Z Aqua MODIS.jpg
|Track=Rumbia 2006 track.png
|Formed=[[October 3]]
|Dissipated=[[October 6]]
|10-min winds=45
|1-min winds=30
|Pressure=985
}}
On [[October 3]], a tropical depression south of [[Minami Torishima]] in high sea-surface temperatures gained enough convection and was designated Tropical Storm Rumbia by the JMA, although the JTWC had not even carried it as a tropical depression. Rumbia is a type of [[palm tree]] that yields [[sago]]. Later that day, the JTWC issued a [[Tropical Cyclone Formation Alert]], and began warnings on Tropical Depression 20W the next day. Rumbia slowly began to intensify while moving to the northwest, but on [[October 6]] its low-level circulation became fully exposed, and the JTWC issued a final warning. The JMA followed suit soon after. The remnants of Rumbia were later no longer distinct from the extratropical low associated with Bebinca.
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===Typhoon Soulik===
How about just assign these stub templates to the related WikiProject?
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
|Basin=WPac
|Image=Soulik 14 Oct 06 02Z.jpg
|Track=Soulik 2006 track.png
|Formed=[[October 9]]
|Dissipated=[[October 16]]
|10-min winds=75
|1-min winds=90
|Pressure=955
}}
On [[October 9]], an area of low pressure was found to have banding convection wrapping into a consolidating low-level circulation centre, and was declared a tropical depression by the JTWC. As the system strengthened further, it was upgraded to Tropical Storm 21W by the JTWC later that day. JMA followed suit and classified the storm as Tropical Storm Soulik. The name Soulik was submitted by the [[Federated States of Micronesia]], and is a traditional title for [[Pohnpei]] chiefs. Soulik continued to intensify through [[October 10]], and the JMA upgraded it to a severe tropical storm. [[Agrihan]] was put under a tropical storm watch, which was later upgraded to a warning. In 18 hours on [[October 11]], 8&nbsp;inches (205&nbsp;mm) of rain was reported on [[Pagan Island]].<ref>http://www.weather.unisys.com/hurricane/archive/06101106</ref> After days of gradual strengthening, it became a typhoon on [[October 12]], stalling over [[Iwo Jima]]. Soulik reached Category&nbsp;2 status on the [[Saffir-Simpson Hurricane Scale]] on [[October 13]] before gradually weakening and moving northeastward rapidly as it became [[extratropical cyclone|extratropical]].
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===Typhoon Cimaron (Paeng)===
It seems to me that these are similar to WikiProject talk page banner templates, in that they indicate the "type" of article. The difference would simply be to not include the "word" WikiProject in the stub template text. (since it would be placed in mainspace.) So for example, WikiProject Comics places "Comics-related stub" templates.
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
|Basin=WPac
|Image=TY Cimaron 2006 peak.jpg
|Track=Cimaron 2006 track.png
|Formed=[[October 27]]
|Dissipated=[[November 4]]
|10-min winds=100
|1-min winds=140
|Pressure=920
}}
An area of disturbed weather developed northwest of [[Chuuk]] on [[October 24]]. The disturbance moved west-northwestward over the next two days and gradually became better organized, and the [[Joint Typhoon Warning Center]] issued a [[Tropical Cyclone Formation Alert]] on the system on [[October 26]]. The system was designated Tropical Depression 22W by the JTWC later that day. The system continued to strengthen, and the JTWC upgraded it to a tropical storm on [[October 27]]. The [[Japan Meteorological Agency]] later followed suit and designated the system Tropical Storm Cimaron. The name Cimaron was submitted by the [[Philippines]], and is a type of wild [[ox]]. The system quickly intensified, and was upgraded to a severe tropical storm by the JMA later that day. The system continued its quick intensification and was upgraded to a typhoon by both the JTWC and JMA on [[October 28]]. Further intensification occurred overnight, and the typhoon had [[rapid deepening|rapidly deepened]] 65 [[Pascal (unit)|hPa]] in 24 hours, from 985&nbsp;hPa to 920&nbsp;hPa, causing the JTWC to upgrade it to a 140-kt super typhoon at 9 a.m. UTC on [[October 29]]. It made landfall at about 12:30 p.m. [[UTC]] the same day on Northern [[Luzon]]. There, especially in [[Isabela Province]], it lashed winds as much as 195[[km/h]] and gusts as much as 230[[km/h]].<ref>[http://www.gmanews.tv/story/19181/(Update)-Super-typhoon-Paeng-rips-Isabela-province GMANews.TV - (Update) Super typhoon ‘Paeng’ rips Isabela province - Nation - Official Website of GMA News and Public Affairs - Latest Philippine News - BETA<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref> Actually, all or parts of four provinces (Isabela, [[Quirino Province|Quirino]], [[Cagayan]] and [[Aurora Province|Aurora]]) are declared under Signal#4 as the typhoon struck the island.<ref>[http://www.gmanews.tv/htmfiles/Paeng_2006.htm Paeng 2006<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref>


Cimaron then re-intensified after crossing the island, but not to its original strength, and was expected to curve towards [[Hainan Island|Hainan]], instead of moving towards [[Vietnam]] as previously forecast. On [[November 1]], the JTWC upgraded the typhoon back into a Category&nbsp;3-equivalent storm, and forecast that it would make a direct impact on [[Hong Kong]]. However, prediction models showed conflicting forecasts, and Cimaron remained quasi-stationary and weakened to a severe tropical storm on [[November 2]]. Dry air entrainment caused further weakening, with the JTWC dropping it to a minimal tropical storm at 3 p.m. UTC the next day. It weakened further, upwelling itself. The JTWC issued its final warning at 3 p.m. UTC on [[November 4]]. The JMA continued advisories on Cimaron until 12 a.m. UTC on [[November 6]], when it was downgraded to a weak tropical depression.
So essentially, if there isn't a WikiProject, perhaps there shouldn't be a related stub template? - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 01:20, 6 October 2008 (UTC)


The typhoon killed at least 19&nbsp;people, many of whom drowned, and left 15 missing in the northern Philippines. It also killed a woman and her child after both are hit by a sheet of galvanized iron in [[Dilasag]], Aurora Province, serving as the first human casualties.<ref>[http://www.gmanews.tv/story/19190/Typhoon-Paeng-claims-first-casualties GMANews.TV - Typhoon 'Paeng' claims first casualties - Nation - Official Website of GMA News and Public Affairs - Latest Philippine News - BETA<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref> Further casualties happened as the typhoon passed through Luzon.<ref>[http://www.gmanews.tv/story/19203/Typhoon-Paeng-weakens-but-casualties-rise-3-dead-3-hurt GMANews.TV - Typhoon 'Paeng' weakens but casualties rise; 3 dead, 3 hurt - Nation - Official Website of GMA News and Public Affairs - Latest Philippine News - BETA<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref> Despite these, however, classes in [[Metro Manila]] were still not suspended.<ref>[http://www.gmanews.tv/story/19172 GMANews.TV - Classes in Metro Manila not suspended despite typhoon - Nation - Official Website of GMA News and Public Affairs - Latest Philippine News - BETA<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref> It also caused at least US$9&nbsp;million in damage.<ref>[http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/EKOI-6V58Y3?OpenDocument&rc=3&emid=TC-2006-000153-PHL News: Southeast Asia: Typhoon Cimaron - Oct 2006, Toll from typhoon Cimaron rises to 19 in Philippines<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref> 90% of the houses were damaged in a coastal town near where Cimaron made landfall.<ref>[http://news.bostonherald.com/international/view.bg?articleid=164856 Error - BostonHerald.com<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref> In the aftermath of the storm's passage across the Philippines, the [[Swedish International Development Cooperation Agency]] contributed 2.5&nbsp;million [[Swedish krona]] (US$350,000) to aid efforts.<ref>[http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/HMYT-6V5P2H?OpenDocument&rc=3&emid=TC-2006-000153-PHL Contributions: Southeast Asia: Typhoon Cimaron - Oct 2006, Sida support to nearly two million Asians affected by typhoon, Press Releases: Southeast Asia: Typhoon Xangsane - Sep 2006, Sida support to nearly two million Asians affected by typhoon<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref>
::That would be terrible, and also completely unworkable - first you'd have to work out exactly what is and what isn't covered by a project (something often the members of a project can't decide), and then you'd have to accept that there would be a big pool of stubs that would never be sorted because they fall outside the aegis of every project. Even if you were to accept that, you'd have the problem of stubs which fall within the boundaries of several different projects, and also the problems that would occur when a new wikiproject forms, or when an established wikiproject becomes moribund. There's also the problem that has arisen in the past where editors not part of a wikiproject feel intimidated about editing a stub article if it is marked as being maintained by a specific WikiProject (as the banner templates say). It is vital that editors aren't put off improving articles and are actually encouraged to edit. Stub templates are worded in an attempt to encourage this. Assessment banners, though they do not actively discourage editing, can have this effect due to their connection with a "closed group of editors", i.e., a Wikiproject. Your comment about the similarity with Wikiproject banner templates is, however, true, and is exactly the point that has been made here - that people do confuse the two even though they are different systems. This project arose when assessment templates used "Stub-Class" as one of the assessment levels even though there was already a long-standing stub system in place that was unrelated to it - the system we are currently discussing. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 05:41, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
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===Typhoon Chebi (Queenie)===
:Assigning stub templates to the related WikiProject would indeed be good and practical approach. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 02:19, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
|Basin=WPac
|Image=Chebi 2006 1230Z 10 Nov.jpg
|Track=Chebi 2006 track.png
|Formed=[[November 9]]
|Dissipated=[[November 13]]
|10-min winds=100
|1-min winds=125
|Pressure=925
}}
An area of disturbed weather developed east of the [[Mariana Islands]] on [[October 31]], and moved west-northwestward over the next week without any increase in organization due to an unfavorable environment, until [[November 6]], when it encountered more favorable conditions, and the [[Japan Meteorological Agency]] declared it a tropical depression on [[November 8]]. The [[Joint Typhoon Warning Center]] issued a [[Tropical Cyclone Formation Alert]] on the system later that day, and [[Philippine Atmospheric, Geophysical and Astronomical Services Administration|PAGASA]] named the system Tropical Depression Queenie shortly after. The JTWC classified it as Tropical Depression 23W early on [[November 9]]. According to the JTWC, lack of equatorial outflow prevented rapid intensification of the system. Later that day at 12 p.m. UTC, the JMA upgraded it to a tropical storm named it Chebi. The name Jebi, the correct spelling means [[swallow]] in [[Korean language|Korean]]. The JTWC and PAGASA both followed suit later that day. Early on [[November 10]], the JMA upgraded Chebi to a severe tropical storm as it continued to move west towards the [[Philippines]], following a similar track as Typhoon Cimaron earlier in the season.


Just hours later, the JMA upgraded Chebi from severe tropical storm with 10-minute sustained winds of 55&nbsp;knots to a typhoon with winds of 95&nbsp;knots, with a pressure decrease of 40 [[Pascal (unit)|hPa]] over three hours. The JTWC followed suit, upping Chebi from a tropical storm with 1-minute sustained winds of 55&nbsp;knots to a [[Saffir-Simpson Hurricane Scale|Category 4-equivalent]] typhoon at 9 a.m. UTC. PAGASA raised Public Storm Warning Signal #4 for three provinces in [[Luzon]], making Chebi the second storm (Typhoon Cimaron served as the first one that year.) in as many weeks to force a Signal #4. After [[rapid deepening|rapidly deepening]], Chebi weakened as it approached the Philippines. It made its first landfall near [[Casiguran, Aurora]] early on [[November 11]], crossed the [[Lingayen Gulf]] and its second landfall on [[Barangay]] Lucap, [[Alaminos City]] about 8 hours later.
Stubs are deliberately kept separate from all wikiprojects for the exact reason you outlined above - that quite often they are to be used by multiple projects. In other cases, there are no relevant wikiprojects for particular stubs. There is a perfectly acceptable system which is used ''by'' wikiprojects, but it is not stubs - it is Stub-Class articles, part of the assessment process used by individual projects. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 05:41, 6 October 2008 (UTC)


Encountering dry air entrainment and increased vertical [[wind shear]] in the [[South China Sea]], Chebi began to gradually weaken to a severe tropical storm on [[November 12]]. It continued to weaken, turning northwards towards [[Hainan]], and was downgraded to a tropical storm the next day. On [[November 14]], the JMA issued its last advisory on the dissipating tropical depression. The JTWC issued its final warning later that same day as Chebi dissipated under the strong shear.
:What is a stub? Here is the definition used by the [[Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team|Version 1.0 Editorial Team]]:


All told, the typhoon caused further casualties as well as damage caused by the earlier Typhoon Cimaron. After passing through Luzon, it left 1 dead and 10 injured.<ref>[http://www.gmanews.tv/story/20754/(Update)-Queenie-leaves-RP-1-dead-10-injured GMANews.TV - (Update) 'Queenie' leaves RP: 1 dead, 10 injured - Nation - Official Website of GMA News and Public Affairs - Latest Philippine News - BETA<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref> In [[Aurora Province]], it caused floods, cutting the province's road system<ref>[http://www.gmanews.tv/story/20893/Floods-hamper-relief-work-in-Aurora GMANews.TV - Floods hamper relief work in Aurora - Nation - Official Website of GMA News and Public Affairs - Latest Philippine News - BETA<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref>, as well as zero visibility, further isolating it from relief efforts.<ref>[http://www.gmanews.tv/story/20986/Zero-visibility-now-keeping-relief-goods-from-Aurora GMANews.TV - Zero visibility now keeping relief goods from Aurora - Nation - Official Website of GMA News and Public Affairs - Latest Philippine News - BETA<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref>
::''The article is either a very short article or a rough collection of information that will need much work to become a meaningful article. It is usually very short, but can be of any length if the material is irrelevant or incomprehensible.''
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===Typhoon Durian (Reming)===
:That's it. It's not a categorization system of Byzantine complexity. It's a short article. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 10:51, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
|Basin=WPac
|Image=ST Durian 30 nov 2006 0500Z.jpg
|Track=Durian 2006 track.png
|Formed=[[November 26]]
|Dissipated=[[December 5]]
|10-min winds=105
|1-min winds=135
|Pressure=915
}}
{{hurricane main|Typhoon Durian}}
An area of disturbed weather developed southeast of [[Chuuk]] on [[November 24]]. [[Wind shear]] near the disturbance soon decreased, allowing the depression to organize a little. It was designated a tropical depression by [[Japan Meteorological Agency]] on [[November 25]], and later that day the [[Joint Typhoon Warning Center]] started issuing warnings on the system as it moved west-northwest towards [[Yap]]. The depression strengthened because it was in an area of high sea-surface temperatures, and there were distinct cloud features of [[anticyclone|anticyclonic]] outflow, according to the JMA. It was upgraded to a tropical storm on the afternoon of [[November 26]] and named Durian. The name Durian refers to a fruit, "[[Durian|Durio zibethinus]]", and was submitted to the naming list by [[Thailand]].


Moving west to west-northwestward, Durian intensified slowly. It became a severe tropical storm on [[November 27]], and the next day it was named ''Reming'' by [[Philippine Atmospheric, Geophysical and Astronomical Services Administration|PAGASA]] when it entered the Philippine Area of Responsibility. Later on [[November 28]], both the JMA and JTWC upgraded it to a typhoon as it continued to track towards the [[Philippines]]. A quick bout of intensification occurred on [[November 29]], causing the JMA to upgrade the storm to 100&nbsp;knots in wind intensity, and the JTWC to give it a [[Dvorak technique|Dvorak classification]] of 6.5 (127&nbsp;kt) in a [[satellite]] fix. In 6 hours, Durian intensified from 90 [[knot (speed)|kt]] 1-minute sustained winds to 125&nbsp;kt winds. The JTWC then forecast a direct hit over [[Metro Manila]] later that day when it upgraded the storm to a super typhoon. PAGASA raised Public Storm Warning Signal 4, its highest warning level, over [[Catanduanes]], [[Albay]], [[Camarines Norte]] and [[Camarines Sur]]. It was the third time in 2006, and the third time in a row, that PAGASA raised Signal #4. Durian began to weaken slightly as it approached land, undergoing an [[eyewall replacement cycle]], but quickly regained peak strength.
And thus you prove my point. What you've just described is actually a Stub-Class article, not a stub. The definition of a stub is at [[Wikipedia:Stub]]. It is through the confusing and conflating of these two completely different definitions that this proposal has been made and moch of the argument in favour of it has been made. As pointed out above, Stub-Class might well work very well with the proposal. Unfortunately, stubs (as defined at [[Wikipedia;Stub]], would not. It would have been better had Stub-Class (often incorrectly shortened to "stub", as here, just to add to the confusion) been called something completely different when the assessment scheme was inaugurated. These points were alluded to by Alai, above. Unfortunately, to do so now would be to increase editors' confusion even more. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 00:02, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


PAGASA claimed that the storm made landfall on the morning of [[November 30]] over southern [[Catanduanes]], although the JMA and JTWC did not recognize this landfall. Durian then made another landfall after crossing the [[Lagonoy Gulf]] in northeastern [[Albay]]. After weakening due to interaction with land, Durian was downgraded back to a typhoon by the JTWC. The storm continued to move west, making landfalls on the [[Bondoc Peninsula]] in [[Quezon]], on [[Marinduque]] and finally on [[Oriental Mindoro]] before exiting to the [[South China Sea]].
:The definition of a stub at [[Wikipedia:Stub]] is:


Encountering dry air entrainment and vertical [[wind shear]], Durian weakened slightly at first, but slowly began to reorganise and restrengthen as it neared [[Vietnam]]. Durian began to turn slightly southwest towards [[Nha Trang]] and [[Ho Chi Minh City]] on [[December 3]]. Eventually, Durian began to weaken again, and by [[December 4]], the JMA downgraded it to a severe tropical storm. The storm maintained intensity as it skirted the Vietnamese coast moving southwest. After a brief second stint at typhoon strength, Durian finally made landfall in [[Ben Tre Province]] on [[December 5]]. The system rapidly weakened over land, and the JMA downgraded it to a tropical storm. The JMA and JTWC issued their final advisories later that day as Durian emerged into the [[Gulf of Thailand]] as a weak tropical depression. The remnants of Durian then crossed the coast of [[southern Thailand]] as it moved into the [[Bay of Bengal]].
::''A stub is an article containing only a few sentences of text which is too short to provide encyclopedic coverage of a subject, but not so short as to provide no useful information.''


The storm killed at least 720 in the [[Philippines]].<ref>[http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/EKOI-6WF8T8?OpenDocument&rc=3&emid=TC-2006-000175-PHL Situation Reports: Southeast Asia: Typhoon Durian - Dec 2006, Philippines: NDCC media update - Typhoon "Reming" (Durian) 13 Dec 2006<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref> The most damage occurred in [[Albay Province]] where the storm created mudslides of volcanic ash and boulders off [[Mayon Volcano]].<ref>[http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/YAOI-6WD3GQ?OpenDocument Press Releases: Southeast Asia: Typhoon Durian - Dec 2006, Devastating typhoon hits the Philippines and Vietnam<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref> The Padang [[barangay]] of [[Legazpi City]] was severely affected with a large portion of the town covered in mud up to houses' roofs.<ref>http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061201/ap_on_re_as/asia_storm</ref> <!-- needs a non-Yahoo! ref --> At least 81&nbsp;people have died and 16&nbsp;people are missing in [[Vietnam]] from the storm.<ref>[http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/YAOI-6WA9N3?OpenDocument&rc=3&emid=TC-2006-000175-PHL Press Releases: Southeast Asia: Typhoon Durian - Dec 2006, Viet Nam: NDMP Durian typhoon damage update 08 Dec 2006<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref>
:That's essentially the same definition as offered by [[Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team|Version 1.0 Editorial Team]]. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 00:32, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
<div style="clear: both"></div>


===Typhoon Utor (Seniang)===
== Enable [[mw:Extension:Nuke]] ==
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
|Basin=WPac
|Image=Typhoon Utor 13 dec 2006 0305Z.jpg
|Track=Utor 2006 track.png
|Formed=[[December 7]]
|Dissipated=[[December 14]]
|10-min winds=85
|1-min winds=100
|Pressure=945
}}
On [[December 2]], an area of convection was spotted by the [[Joint Typhoon Warning Center]] southeast of [[Chuuk]]. Although convection decreased in the next few hours, on [[December 5]] the JTWC once again noted flaring deep convection, and late on [[December 6]] a [[Tropical Cyclone Formation Alert]] was issued. On the morning of [[December 7]], both the JTWC and [[Japan Meteorological Agency]]-RSMC Tokyo reported that a tropical depression had formed. Soon after, the depression entered the area of responsibility of [[Philippine Atmospheric, Geophysical and Astronomical Services Administration|PAGASA]], who named it Seniang. The depression strengthened throughout the day, and the JMA upgraded it to Tropical Storm Utor later that day. The name Utor was submitted by the [[United States]] on behalf of the [[Marshall Islands]], and is a [[Marshallese language|Marshallese]] word for [[squall line]].


On [[December 8]], the JMA upgraded Utor to a severe tropical storm. It intensified further and was upgraded to a typhoon by the JMA on the morning of [[December 9]], with [[Philippine Atmospheric, Geophysical and Astronomical Services Administration|PAGASA]] and JTWC doing the same. The storm made landfall shortly after noon local time the same day. After crossing the [[Philippines]], Utor took a track similar to Typhoon Chebi in November, first moving northwest then threatening to take aim at [[Hong Kong]]. It restrengthened to an 85-kt typhoon, before it slowed as it tracked in a weak steering environment within a weakness in the [[subtropical ridge]]. It then weakened as wind shear increased and dry air entrainment occurred. The JMA downgraded it to a severe tropical storm on [[December 13]], and to a tropical storm the same day. The next day the JTWC downgraded the storm to a tropical storm and issued its last advisory.
Meta recently had a [[m:Metapub#Enable_mw:Extension:Nuke_on_WMF_wikis_by_default|poll]] that passed that permits small wikis to enable the [[mw:Extension:Nuke]]. Due to its size, the English Wikipedia was not included in the poll and the decision has been left to us locally if we would like to enable such a feature.


The [[ASEAN Summit|2006 ASEAN]] and [[East Asia Summit]], originally scheduled to start [[December 10]], was put back a month due to the storm.<ref>[http://www.12thaseansummit.org.ph/innertemplate3.asp?category=news&newsid=319 The official site of 12th ASEAN SUMMIT: Cebu, Philippines<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref><ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6220492.stm BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Philippines postpones Asean talks<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref> Typhoon Utor killed at least 30, and left 8 others missing.<ref>[http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/VBOL-6WHHZT?OpenDocument&rc=3&emid=TC-2006-000183-PHL Situation Reports: Philippines: Typhoon Utor - Dec 2006, Philippines: NDCC media update - Typhoon "Seniang" (Utor) 15 Dec 2006<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref>
In short, nuke permits administrators to delete all the recent pages created by a single user. This feature would be especially useful with grawp and spammers and would be [[WP:PERF|easier]] on the servers than current deletion scripts used by admins to fight grawp (as well as more accurate). So I'd like to start a local poll on the question of enabling the nuke extension here.


Typhoon Utor was blamed for heavy rains of up to 350&nbsp;mm within 24 hours in southern [[Peninsular Malaysia]], specifically [[Johor]], [[Negeri Sembilan]], [[Melaka]] and [[Pahang]], causing massive floods within the southern region on [[18 December]] [[2006]], which was considered as the worst in the [[Malaysia]]n southern region history.<ref name=Segamat-flood01> [http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2006/12/21/nation/16380186&sec=nation Typhoon Utor to blame] The Star Online </ref> However, there were also reports a few days earlier that adverse weather was not to be blamed on the typhoon.<ref>[http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2006/12/14/nation/16311944&sec=nation Seas too choppy for small vessels<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref> The worst-affected areas were [[Segamat]] and [[Kota Tinggi]], where both towns were totally inaccessible by land after all main roads leading to those towns were all flooded.<ref name=Segamat-flood02> [http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2006/12/21/nation/20061221072623&sec=nation Segamat and Kota Tinggi folks stranded by floods] The Star Online </ref> Until [[24 December]] [[2006]], the floods had claimed 8 lives.<ref name=Segamat-flood03> [http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2006/12/24/nation/16409486&sec=nation&focus=1 Relief all round] The Star Online </ref>
===Support enabling===
# Obviously. '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 12:16, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
# This would be very advantageous for admins and developers alike; both reducing server lag and helping with the mass reversion of spammers and vandalbots. — '''^.^''' <sup>&#91;''[[User:^.^|citation]] [[User talk:^.^|needed]]''&#93;</sup> 12:55, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
# Sounds like a good idea with no obvious negatives. -- [[User:Imperator3733|Imperator3733]] ([[User talk:Imperator3733|talk]]) 16:35, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
# Looks good to me. [[User:Shereth|<b><font color="#0000FF">Sher</font></b>]]<b><font color="#6060BF">[[User_talk:Shereth|eth]]</font></b> 16:43, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
# I agree, this could be very helpful. <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 16:53, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
# Support, definitely. - [[User:Rjd0060|Rjd0060]] ([[User talk:Rjd0060|talk]]) 17:07, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
# Support; nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure. --—<i><b>—&nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|<font color = "gray">Gadget850&nbsp;(Ed)</font>]]<font color = "darkblue">&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup></font></b> - </i> 17:12, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
#Mwawhawhawhawhaw... er, I mean '''Support'''... <tt>:D</tt> <font color="forestgreen">[[User:Happy-melon|'''Happy''']]</font>‑<font color="darkorange">[[User talk:Happy-melon|'''melon''']]</font> 17:23, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
# Giving nukes to 1500 random people on the internet? What could possibly go wrong? '''Support''' <strong>[[user:henrik|<font color="#B38F00">henrik</font>]]<small>•[[user talk:henrik|<font color="#AFA29F">talk</font>]]</small></strong> 18:00, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
# Support. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 18:41, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
# Though I'd be even happier if there was an un-nuke option as well. [[User:EVula|EVula]] <span style="color: #999;">// [[User talk:EVula|talk]] // [[User:EVula/admin|<span style="color: #366;">&#9775;</span>]] //</span> 21:41, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
#:I'd like to amend my comment to say that I definitely think that a seven day limit would be a fantastic way of limiting inadvertent (or even malicious) abuse of the tool. [[User:EVula|EVula]] <span style="color: #999;">// [[User talk:EVula|talk]] // [[User:EVula/admin|<span style="color: #366;">&#9775;</span>]] //</span> 00:51, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
# Support. I've always wanted to have my own nuclear weapon. So long as I don't have to have the [[demon core]] on my desk as well.-<font face="cursive" color="#808080">[[User talk:gadfium|gadfium]]</font> 22:08, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
# Support, as long as I get to keep the [[Nuclear Football|football]]. [[User:The Duke of Waltham|Waltham]], <small>[[User talk:The Duke of Waltham|''The Duke of'']]</small> 03:23, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
#Support, per {{user|MBisanz}}. '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 12:46, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
#'''Support''' Seems like a good enough idea. &ndash;[[User:Juliancolton|Juliancolton]] [[User talk:Juliancolton|<font color="#66666"><sup>'''T'''ropical</sup></font>]] [[Special:contributions/Juliancolton|<font color="#66666"><sup>'''C'''yclone</sup></font>]] 12:52, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
#Support, this would be very helpful (and Grawp will die of radiation poisoning). '''[[User:Firefoxman|ff]]<font color="darkgreen">[[User talk:Firefoxman|m]]</font>''' 12:57, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
#'''Support''' with some upward limit on pages created. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 18:57, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
#And when it supports uploads, it'd be great on imagevio uploaders as well. [[User:MER-C|MER-C]] 13:21, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
#'''Support but''' I really think the software should be scripted to allow un-nuking with the same amount of work. It can't be that hard to code a reverse-option, all it has to do is undelete a list of articles which are hopefully logged to have been nuked. Or aren't they? I really think there ought to be a nuke log if they aren't. '''[[User:SoWhy|<span style="font-variant:small-caps; color: #AC0000">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="font-variant:small-caps; color: #1F3F53">Why</span>]]''' 13:35, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
#'''Support''' as a valuable tool against vandalism and spam, but at the same time if this is a problem, why not just put a common-sense restriction on article creation for new accounts, something like 1 article per day for the account's first 30 days or 100 edits, whichever comes last. [[User:Starblind|Andrew Lenahan]] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 18:27, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
#'''Support''', provided that the tool is in fact limited to what is in the recentchanges table (as discussed below) - that is, is limited to new pages created by an editor in the past 30 days. With that limit, a rogue or compromised account isn't likely to be able to do much damage before being de-sysopped. -- <font style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </font> [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 00:44, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
#'''Support''', with John Broughton's proviso to limit the period to 30 days. In practice, that could even be reduced to 7 days or even less, since a spate of spurious creations is likely to be noticed by ''someone'' relatively quickly. '''[[User:Horologium|<font color="DarkSlateGray">Horologium</font>]]''' <small>[[User talk:Horologium|(talk)]]</small> 01:11, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
#'''Support''' though a limit to 30 days would be good. '''''<font color="#FF0000">[[User:Hut 8.5|Hut 8.5]]</font>''''' 11:03, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
#'''Support''' but I do like the idea of some sort of time limit ([[User:John Broughton|Broughton]]/[[User:Horologium|Horologium]]) [[User:Scottydude|Scotty]][[User talk:Scottydude|dude]] <sub><small>[[Wikipedia:Editor review/Scottydude|review]]</small></sub> 13:10, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
#'''Support''', <s>provided that the nuke button is big and red</s> ;P. Seriously, though, this is a good idea. I agree that a limit to 30 days would be a good idea. [[User talk:Islander|<sub><font color="DarkGray">'''Talk'''</font></sub>]][[User:Islander|<font color="Blue">'''Islander'''</font>]] 10:17, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
#'''Support''' with limit. And yes, an un-nuke option would be handy there too. [[User:Garion96|Garion96]] [[User talk:Garion96|(talk)]] 12:01, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
#'''support''' With the understanding that Nuke will be used only for the most blatant of vandalism and not in other situations. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] ([[User talk:JoshuaZ|talk]]) 17:21, 5 October 2008 (UTC)


===Oppose enabling===
===Tropical Storm Trami (Tomas)===
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
#Pending un-nuker or equivalent. We must have balance in the force. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 03:28, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
|Basin=WPac
#Far too open to accidental misuse (or even deliberate misuse, in the unthinkable event that we ever get an admin who is less than entirely scrupulous in his regard for policy). [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 23:05, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
|Image=Trami 2006.jpg
#:Why are we letting a hypothetical situation that has never happened (to the best of my knowledge) stop us from effectively undoing situations which are all too common? [[User:EVula|EVula]] <span style="color: #999;">// [[User talk:EVula|talk]] // [[User:EVula/admin|<span style="color: #366;">&#9775;</span>]] //</span> 00:41, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
|Track=Trami 2006 track.png
#::I hope that's sarcasm... --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 02:38, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
|Formed=[[December 17]]
#:::Echo the above. Considering the huge problem that it will produce when misused (and it will get misused, just as every other tool does), I'd rather not have it granted at all. <font color="629632">[[User:Celarnor|'''Celarnor''']]</font> <sup><font color="7733ff">[[User_talk:Celarnor|Talk to me]]</font></sup> 10:34, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
|Dissipated=[[December 18]]
#We make too many mistakes as it is. '''[[User:DGG|DGG]]''' ([[User talk:DGG|talk]]) 00:29, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
|10-min winds=35
#"Pending un-nuker or equivalent" as stated above -- [[User:Philcha|Philcha]] ([[User talk:Philcha|talk]]) 09:01, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
|1-min winds=30
#Too open to abuse, weak community oversight, difficult to undo, etc. Too many negatives, not enough benefit. <font color="629632">[[User:Celarnor|'''Celarnor''']]</font> <sup><font color="7733ff">[[User_talk:Celarnor|Talk to me]]</font></sup> 10:31, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
|Pressure=1000
#Per Ned, there needs equally automated way to revert this. — [[User talk:CharlotteWebb|CharlotteWebb]] 11:02, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
}}
On [[December 16]], the [[Japan Meteorological Agency]] started issuing public bulletins on a tropical depression southwest of [[Guam]]. The [[Joint Typhoon Warning Center]] initiated warnings on Tropical Depression 26W the next day, despite having not issued a [[Tropical Cyclone Formation Alert]]. The system was upgraded to a tropical storm by the JMA and named Trami, which is a kind of [[rose]] tree. This name was submitted by [[Vietnam]]. The storm moved west-northwest rapidly towards the [[Philippines]], but struggled against wind shear and an approaching cold front. Entering the PAGASA Area of Responsibility on [[December 18]] as it maintained minimal tropical storm intensity, it was named Tomas. The JTWC issued its final warning later that day, having never upgraded the storm to tropical storm strength, citing no indication of a significant low-level circulation centre. On [[December 19]], the JMA downgraded the storm to a tropical depression and issued its last public bulletin as the storm dissipated over water.
<div style="clear: both"></div>


=== Questions ===
==Other storms==
These systems were not officially named as tropical storms by the JMA, although the JMA might have monitored them as tropical depressions. They were, however, designated as tropical cyclones by the Philippines (PAGASA), China (CMA), and/or the Joint Typhoon Warning Center (JTWC).
Since we've just had several issues with admins recently, including socks, and an arbcomm case, I'd like to know how easy it would be to reverse this. So, would these also be undeletable as a group? - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 17:24, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


===PAGASA Tropical Depression Agaton===
:It would be added as a right to the admin group. Seeing as admins already have a large number of rights at [[Special:ListGroupRights]] and this feature can be duplicated by external software, there is really no more risk to an rogue admin with this tool than there is to an admin without it. Just that non-rogue admins will have an an easier time cleaning up with it. '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 18:04, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
|Basin=WPac
|WarningCenter=PAGASA
|Image=Tropical Depression Agaton 2006.JPG
|Formed=[[January 21]]
|Dissipated=[[January 24]]
|10-min winds=30
|Pressure=1000
}}
On [[January 21]], a tropical depression formed about 230&nbsp;km east-northeast of [[Hinatuan, Surigao del Sur]] within the [[Philippine Atmospheric, Geophysical and Astronomical Services Administration|Philippine area of responsibility]], and was named Agaton by PAGASA for Philippine warnings. The depression weakened into a low pressure system on [[January 24]] after landfall.


The system entered into the South China Sea and became better organized. Therefore, China declared the formation of a tropical depression on [[January 25]].<ref>{{languageicon|zh|Chinese}} http://www.nmc.gov.cn/news/viewArticle.do?method=viewArticle&id=ff80808108db4e5a010900e4cf960030</ref> and forecast that it would become a tropical storm. However, the depression failed to develop.<ref name="typhoon2000">[http://www.typhoon2000.ph/season06.htm :: Typhoon2000.com® :: Philippine Tropical Cyclones 2006 Season<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref>
::Let me clarify: If User:nuker (an admin) "nuked" three pages with the tool, is there an "un-nuke" version of the tool for undeleting all three simultaneously (the way they were deleted), or would they have to be undeleted one at a time?
<div style="clear: both"></div>
::This becomes even more "fun" when hundreds of pages are "nuked". - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 18:09, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


===JTWC Tropical Storm 01W (Basyang)===
:::Currently, no, Mediawiki doesn't have an Un-Nuker, but many admins do have scripts that will do the same thing. So basically we'd be replacing Script-based Deletion and Script-based Undeletion with Software-based Deletion and Script-based Undeletion. '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 18:16, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
|Basin=WPac
|WarningCenter=PAGASA
|Image=2006 TS01W peak.jpg
|Track=1-W 2006 track.png
|Formed=[[March 4]]
|Dissipated=[[March 7]]
|10-min winds=30
|1-min winds=35
|Pressure=996
}}
On [[March 4]], a tropical depression formed out of a wave close to the [[equator]] southeast of [[Palau]]. The [[Joint Typhoon Warning Center|JTWC]] upgraded it to Tropical Storm 01W at 3 p.m. [[UTC]] the same day. The JTWC downgraded it back to a depression on [[March 5]] due to shear, and it never regained tropical storm strength before dissipating on [[March 7]].<ref name="nrl">[http://www.nrlmry.navy.mil/tc_pages/tc_home.html Navy/NRL Tropical Cyclone Page<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref>


In the six years since current naming conventions were introduced, this was the 12th time the JTWC recognised a tropical storm not named by the JMA, after three storms in the [[2001 Pacific typhoon season]],<ref>http://www.australiasevereweather.com/cyclones/2002/summ2001.txt</ref> two storms each in [[2000 Pacific typhoon season|2000]],[[2002 Pacific typhoon season|2002]],<ref>http://www.typhoon2000.ph/garyp_mgtcs/02sum.txt</ref> and [[2004 Pacific typhoon season|2004]]<ref>http://www.australiasevereweather.com/cyclones/2004/summ2003.txt</ref> and one each in [[2003 Pacific typhoon season|2003]] and [[2005 Pacific typhoon season|2005]].<ref>[http://www.australiasevereweather.com/cyclones/2006/summ2005.htm Northern Hemisphere 2005 Tropical Cyclone Season Review<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref>
::::Mk. Thank you for the clarification. While (presuming the trend continues) this is likely to pass, I think I'll stay neutral. Thanks again. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 18:23, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
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===CMA Tropical Depression 03===
[[Image:Mushcloud.jpg|thumb|The successful detonation of a nuclear weapon above ground is invariably accompanied by a spectacular display of fireworks, which cannot be rewound (unless on video).<ref>So I've heard.</ref>]]
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
|Basin=WPac
|WarningCenter=CMA
|Image=TD03.jpg
|Formed=[[July 3]]
|Dissipated=[[July 4]]
|10-min winds=30
|Pressure=998
}}
On [[July 3]], China Meteorological Administration identified a tropical depression about 200&nbsp;km south of [[Sanya]], [[Hainan]].<ref>http://www.nmc.gov.cn/news/viewArticle.do?method=viewArticle&id=ff8080810c1dc5dd010c32325f2d001e</ref> The depression moved northwest and made landfall at 7:10 p.m. [[Chinese Standard Time|CST]] in Hainan on the same day.<ref>http://www.nmc.gov.cn/news/viewArticle.do?method=viewArticle&id=ff8080810c33d24b010c37614f8a0001</ref> The storm's lowest pressure was around 998&nbsp;hPa.<ref>http://weather.unisys.com/hurricane/archive/06070400</ref> On the next morning, it entered Gulf of Tonkin and strengthened slightly. Eventually, the depression made its second landfall near Guangxi/Vietnam border around noon and rapidly weakened over land.<ref>http://www.cma.gov.cn/cma_new/tqyb/zhyj/t20060704_138325.phtml</ref>
<div style="clear: both"></div>


===Non-NMHS Tropical Depression===
::::: I don't know why jc37 finds this disagreeable, but I consider the parallel with real-world nukes quite poetic. :-) [[User:The Duke of Waltham|Waltham]], <small>[[User talk:The Duke of Waltham|''The Duke of'']]</small> 03:23, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
|Basin=WPac
|WarningCenter=Other
|Image=99w.jpg
|Formed=[[July 21]]
|Dissipated=[[July 22]]
|10-min winds=25
|Pressure=1002
}}
Guangdong Regional Meteorological Centre, not a National Meteorological and Hydrological Service (for China, this is the CMA) identified a tropical depression about 300&nbsp;km south of Xisha on [[July 21]].<ref>http://mb.hainan.gov.cn/gov/text/qxxx211530081.txt</ref> The system remained weak and dissipated on the next morning.
<div style="clear: both"></div>


===JTWC Tropical Depression 13W===
::::::Well, since you asked : )
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
::::::A key thing about the existing "tools" on the wikis is that there is something of a "balance". Any action can potentially be undone by another action of presumably equal effort.
|Basin=WPac
::::::Well, that "balance" has been gradually changing as new scripting tools and extensions and so on have been added. The speed at which someone can take an action is not necessarily the speed at which someone can undo the action any more.
|Image=2006 13W NONAME landfall.jpg
::::::And even Arbcomm has spoken out in several decisions regarding [[fait accompli]] (which is a fair amount of what such tools can potentially be). Imagine that someone is bold and moves every article of a certain topic to a name of their preference, even though those articles were a part of a larger topic, and follow a ''different'' convention, and consensus is that this should be reverted. Now unless one also has AWB (which should not be presumed), then undoing this could be quite a task. And this is just one example. I honestly have seen far more examples of "personal preference pushing" using tools than we really should see.
|Track=13-W 2006 track.png
::::::And so if we now allow admins to mass delete pages, but there isn't a counter for other admins to undo that action, well, I think you see my concern.
|Formed=[[August 24]]
::::::That said, I'm doing some [[backflip]]s bending over backwards to [[WP:AGF]], and am attempting to hope for the best. And I ''do'' understand the value of admins having the ability. Hence staying neutral. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 09:40, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
|Dissipated=[[August 25]]
|1-min winds=30
|Pressure=1000
}}
In the afternoon of [[August 23]], the [[China Meteorological Administration]] declared the formation of a tropical depression near [[Hainan]]. [[Hong Kong Observatory]] followed later that afternoon. The depression necessitated Tropical Cyclone Signal No.1 in [[Hong Kong]] and [[Macau]], which means that the centre of a tropical cyclone is within 800&nbsp;km (500&nbsp;miles) of the respective [[Special Administrative Region]]s, and may later affect them. The depression made landfall at Guangdong at 5:55 a.m. [[Chinese Standard Time|CST]] on [[August 25]]<ref>http://www.nmc.gov.cn/news/viewArticle.do?method=viewArticle&id=ff8080810d1a51f6010d4321d4970027</ref> and dissipated later that morning.


The JTWC designated the system as a Tropical Depression at 9 p.m. [[UTC]] [[August 24]], but only issued two warnings on the system.
I'm inclined to share Jc37's concerns. Also, what is the definition of "recent edits" here? And does it only delete pages that have only one contributor or will it also delete pages that others have edited? What, for example, would happen if a rogue admin attempted to nuke in short order the articles created by Rambot and other editors with large numbers of contributions? The available documentation is not very clear about such things. [[User:Bkonrad|older]] ≠ [[User talk:Bkonrad|wiser]] 14:30, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
<div style="clear: both"></div>


===JTWC Tropical Depression 15W===
:If this proposal is adopted, it should only be given to admins who pass RfA ''after'' its introduction, as RfA's prior to that will not have examined the candidate's perceived trustworthiness with such a powerful tool. Also, how about watchlisting this? It is a proposal for a massive change to admins' tools. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 23:17, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
::No it isn't, its not giving them the ability to do anything that they can't already do. Right now they'd have to go to [[Special:Newpages]], filter it to show articles by the user in question and delete those pages. <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 15:38, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
|Basin=WPac
:Recent edits means everything that's in the recent changes (database) table. Entries in the table are set to expire after 30 days. [[User:MER-C|MER-C]] 13:46, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
|Image=15W 2006 peak.jpg
::Is that documented somewhere? There is only the barest mention of "recent edits" at [[mw:Extension:Nuke]]. I'd be less concerned over implementing this if the scope is limited to only the past 30 days. [[User:Bkonrad|older]] ≠ [[User talk:Bkonrad|wiser]] 22:49, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
|Track=15-W 2006 track.png
:::[[bugzilla:1|No, not really]]. If you can understand (at least vaguely) PHP, in <tt>getNewPages(String username)</tt> ([http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/extensions/Nuke/SpecialNuke_body.php?revision=40895&view=markup view source]) - which returns the list of pages to be nuked - it does a query against the [[mw:Recentchanges table|recentchanges table]]. The lifetime of table entries is governed by [[mw:Manual:$wgRCMaxAge|$wgRCMaxAge]], [http://noc.wikimedia.org/conf/highlight.php?file=CommonSettings.php which is set] to 30 * 86400 seconds = 30 days. [[User:MER-C|MER-C]] 06:55, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
|Formed=[[September 12]]
::::Thanks. Any clarification about my other main concern -- does this nuke only pages where there was one editor, or does it not check whether there were other editors? [[User:Bkonrad|older]] ≠ [[User talk:Bkonrad|wiser]] 16:53, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
|Dissipated=[[September 13]]
:::::I don't know. Sorry. [[User:MER-C|MER-C]] 09:59, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
|1-min winds=30
::::::I am not a code-person, but it is enabled at Commons, so maybe a an admin from there can explain that question. '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 17:07, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
|Pressure=1000
}}
[[Hong Kong Observatory]] identified a tropical depression about 360&nbsp;kilometres east-northeast of Xisha on [[September 12]] and issued [[Hong Kong Tropical Cyclone Warning Signals|Standby Signal No.1]] accordingly. The tropical depression also necessitated the issuance of the Standby Signal No. 1 in Macau at 2 p.m. [[UTC]] on the same day. The JTWC designated it as a tropical depression, 15W, at 9 p.m. [[UTC]] [[September 12]]. The JMA had earlier already identified it as a tropical depression. As it strengthened and edged closer to the coastal areas of [[Guangdong]], the Strong Wind Signal No. 3 was issued both in Hong Kong and Macau on [[September 13]]. It made landfall in western [[Guangdong]] around 11:30 p.m. [[Chinese Standard Time|CST]] that night and dissipated inland.<ref>http://www.nmc.gov.cn/news/viewArticle.do?method=viewArticle&id=ff8080810d9ac185010da9d6f0780017</ref>
<div style="clear: both"></div>


===JTWC Tropical Storm 17W===
Hm. Looks like this is going to be enabled. Now, what's the name of that bot that created 20,000 pages again? *requests adminship* -- [[User:Gurch|Gurch]] ([[User talk:Gurch|talk]]) 21:02, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
|Basin=WPac
|Image=17W 35 kt 2006-09-24 0530.jpg
|Track=17-W 2006 track.png
|Formed=[[September 23]]
|Dissipated=[[September 25]]
|1-min winds=35
|Pressure=996
}}
The China Meteorological Administration (CMA) and Hong Kong Observatory both identified a tropical depression in the southern [[South China Sea]] on [[September 22]]. The system was organized enough to be classified as Tropical Depression 17W by the JTWC the next day. The JTWC briefly upgraded it to a tropical storm on [[September 24]]. It weakened under heavy vertical wind shear and the JTWC issued its final advisory on Tropical Depression 17W before landfall in [[Vietnam]]. The storm passed just south of Hainan and brought heavy rain to the area. The maximum rainfall recorded was 143mm.<ref>http://www.nmc.gov.cn/news/viewArticle.do?method=viewArticle&id=ff8080810d9ac185010de42a63880062</ref> CMA kept it as a tropical storm until it made landfall in Vietnam in the morning of [[September 25]]. In the six years since current naming conventions were introduced, this was the 13th time the JTWC recognised a tropical storm not named by the JMA. This was also the 3rd time that CMA recognised a tropical storm not named by the JMA, after one storm in the 2000 Pacific typhoon season,<ref>http://www.typhoon.gov.cn/history/2000_cd/yx/wz/wz00xx23.htm</ref> zero in 2001, 2002 and 2003,<ref>http://www.typhoon.gov.cn/history/2001_cd/dh/symain1.htm</ref><ref>http://www.typhoon.gov.cn/history/2002_cd/dh/symain1.htm</ref><ref>http://www.typhoon.gov.cn/history/2003_cd/dh/symain1.htm</ref> one in 2004.<ref>http://www.typhoon.gov.cn/history/2004_cd/puangtest/lj/lj/lj0414.htm</ref>
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===PAGASA Tropical Depression Ompong===
====Alternate proposal ====
{{Infobox Hurricane Small
Since we are (rightly) worried that no easy way to "undo" this mess exists and we have had admin issues in the past. Let's instead give the nuke rights to 'crats. They are, right now, the vice presidents of the wikipedia world (presiding over the senate and going to state funerals). This gives us an easy way to have the functionality but restrict it to a ''very'' trusted group of people. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 18:19, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
|Basin=WPac
:But this would be a fundamental change in the nature of what a 'crat does. The basic maintenance of the 'pedia, in the form of deletions/protections/etc is the domain and duty of administrators, and tools to that effect should pertain to them. If we do not trust administrators as a whole with a tool that pertains to administrative actions, then we should just not have the tool to begin with, rather than delegating admin duties upward. [[User:Shereth|<b><font color="#0000FF">Sher</font></b>]]<b><font color="#6060BF">[[User_talk:Shereth|eth]]</font></b> 18:29, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
|WarningCenter=PAGASA
::That's fair. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 18:56, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
|Image=Ompong 2006 cropped.jpg
:As a bureaucrat, I don't think the nuke tool should be put ''solely'' in our hands (obviously we would have it as admins); our job is to ascertain community consensus, and our duties tend to involve user right modifications (promoting admins and other 'crats, bot flags), with renaming being outside of that. Nuking vandals is totally outside what we were chosen for, and limiting its scope to a dozen or so editors would severely limit its abilities (in a bad way). [[User:EVula|EVula]] <span style="color: #999;">// [[User talk:EVula|talk]] // [[User:EVula/admin|<span style="color: #366;">&#9775;</span>]] //</span> 18:14, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
|Formed=[[October 12]]
:<small><small><small><small>18:46, 4 October 2008 (UTC)</small></small></small></small>
|Dissipated=[[October 13]]
Give it to Oversighters? There's usually one or two online at any given time and they're responsible, easy-to-reach and concerned with protecting the site from user-based abuse. <font color="#FFA000">╟─[[User:TreasuryTag|Treasury]]§[[User talk:TreasuryTag|Tag]]►[[Special:Contributions/TreasuryTag|contribs]]─╢</font> 17:30, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
|10-min winds=30
:That's a much, much better idea. I don't like the idea of well over a thousand people retroactively having a new ability this strong granted to them. <font color="629632">[[User:Celarnor|'''Celarnor''']]</font> <sup><font color="7733ff">[[User_talk:Celarnor|Talk to me]]</font></sup> 10:33, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
|Pressure=1000
}}
On [[October 12]], a tropical disturbance that had been meandering in the [[Philippine Atmospheric, Geophysical and Astronomical Services Administration|Philippine Area of Responsibility]] was designated Tropical Depression Ompong by PAGASA. The depression slowly moved westward toward the [[Philippines]], but wind shear from Typhoon Soulik prevented any intensification. The depression degenerated into an area of low pressure early the next day.
<div style="clear: both"></div>


==Storm names==
== Towards New proposal policy ==
Western North Pacific tropical cyclones are named by the RSMC Tokyo-Typhoon Center of the [[Japan Meteorological Agency]]. Names are selected from the following sequential list, there is no annual list. Names were contributed by 13 members of the [[ESCAP/WMO Typhoon Committee]], except for [[Singapore]]. The 13 nations or territories, along with the [[Federated States of Micronesia]], each submitted 10 names, which are used in alphabetical order by the English name of the country. The names on the list are identical to that used in the 2005 season with the exception of Pongsona, Maemi, Sudal, Rananim, Yanyan and Tingting which were replaced by Noul, Mujigae, Mirinae, Fanapi, Dolphin and Lionrock respectively. Names in <font color="gray">gray</font> were used in [[2005 Pacific typhoon season|2005]], or have not yet been used this season. Active storms are marked in '''bold''' with the marker ''(active)''. Names not greyed out have been used this season. The first storm of the season was named ''Chanchu'', and the last storm was named ''Trami''.


{| width="80%"
Many community members strongly disagree with the [[Meta:Language_proposal_policy|current policy]]. We are proposing a modification of languages criteria to star a wikimedia project, with a [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Language_proposal_policy/Community_draft community draft]]. feel free to contribute with your opinion:
!Contributing Nation || colspan="5" |Names
|-
|[[Cambodia]] || style="color: #888;" | Damrey || style="color: #888;" | Kong-rey
| style="color: #888;" | Nakri || style="color: #888;" | Krovanh || style="color: #888;" | Sarika
|-
|[[China]] || style="color: #888;" | Longwang || style="color: #888;" | Yutu
| style="color: #888;" | Fengshen || style="color: #888;" | Dujuan || style="color: #888;" | Haima
|-
|[[North Korea|DPR Korea]] || style="color: #888;" | Kirogi || style="color: #888;" | Toraji
| style="color: #888;" | Kalmaegi || style="color: #888;" | Mujigae || style="color: #888;" | Meari
|-
|[[Hong Kong]] || style="color: #888;" | Kai-Tak || style="color: #888;" | Man-yi
| style="color: #888;" | Fung-wong || style="color: #888;" | Choi-wan || style="color: #888;" | Ma-on
|-
|[[Japan]] || style="color: #888;" | Tembin || style="color: #888;" | Usagi
| style="color: #888;" | Kammuri || style="color: #888;" | Koppu || style="color: #888;" | Tokage
|-
|[[Laos]] || style="color: #888;" | Bolaven || style="color: #888;" | Pabuk
| style="color: #888;" | Phanfone || style="color: #888;" | Ketsana || style="color: #888;" | Nock-ten
|-
|[[Macau]] || style="color: #000;" | [[Typhoon Chanchu|Chanchu 0601]] || style="color: #888;" | Wutip
| style="color: #888;" | Vongfong || style="color: #888;" | Parma || style="color: #888;" | Muifa
|-
|[[Malaysia]] || style="color: #000;" | Jelawat 0602 || style="color: #888;" | Sepat
| style="color: #888;" | Nuri || style="color: #888;" | Melor || style="color: #888;" | Merbok
|-
|[[Federated States of Micronesia|Micronesia]] || style="color: #000;" | [[Typhoon Ewiniar (2006)|Ewiniar 0603]] || style="color: #888;" | Fitow
| style="color: #888;" | Sinlaku || style="color: #888;" | Nepartak || style="color: #888;" | Nanmadol
|-
|[[Philippines]] || style="color: #000;" | [[Tropical Storm Bilis|Bilis 0604]] || style="color: #888;" | Danas
| style="color: #888;" | Hagupit || style="color: #888;" | Lupit || style="color: #888;" | Talas
|-
|[[South Korea|RO Korea]] || style="color: #000;" | Kaemi 0605 || style="color: #888;" | Nari
| style="color: #888;" | Changmi || style="color: #888;" | Mirinae || style="color: #888;" | Noru
|-
|[[Thailand]] || Prapiroon 0606 || style="color: #888;" | Wipha
| style="color: #888;" | Mekkhala || style="color: #888;" | Nida || style="color: #888;" | Kulap
|-
|[[United States|U.S.A.]] || Maria 0607 || style="color: #888;" | Francisco
| style="color: #888;" | Higos || style="color: #888;" | Omais || style="color: #888;" | Roke
|-
|[[Vietnam]] || [[Typhoon Saomai|Saomai 0608]] || style="color: #888;" | Lekima
| style="color: #888;" | Bavi || style="color: #888;" | Conson || style="color: #888;" | Sonca
|-
|[[Cambodia]] || Bopha 0609 || style="color: #888;" | Krosa
| style="color: #888;" | Maysak || style="color: #888;" | Chanthu || style="color: #888;" | Nesat
|-
|[[China]] || Wukong 0610 || style="color: #888;" | Haiyan
| style="color: #888;" | Haishen || style="color: #888;" | Dianmu || style="color: #888;" | Haitang
|-
|[[North Korea|DPR Korea]] || Sonamu 0611 || style="color: #888;" | Podul
| style="color: #888;" | Noul || style="color: #888;" | Mindulle || style="color: #888;" | Nalgae
|-
|[[Hong Kong]] || [[Typhoon Shanshan (2006)|Shanshan 0613]] || style="color: #888;" | Lingling
| style="color: #888;" | Dolphin|| style="color: #888;" | Lionrock|| style="color: #888;" | Banyan
|-
|[[Japan]] || Yagi 0614 || style="color: #888;" | Kajiki
| style="color: #888;" | Kujira || style="color: #888;" | Kompasu || style="color: #888;" | Washi
|-
|[[Laos]] || [[Typhoon Xangsane|Xangsane 0615]] || style="color: #888;" | Faxai
| style="color: #888;" | Chan-hom || style="color: #888;" | Namtheun || style="color: #888;" | Matsa
|-
|[[Macau]] || Bebinca 0616 || style="color: #888;" | Peipah
| style="color: #888;" | Linfa || style="color: #888;" | Malou || style="color: #888;" | Sanvu
|-
|[[Malaysia]] || Rumbia 0617 || style="color: #888;" | Tapah
| style="color: #888;" | Nangka || style="color: #888;" | Meranti || style="color: #888;" | Mawar
|-
|[[Federated States of Micronesia|Micronesia]] || Soulik 0618 || style="color: #888;" | Mitag
| style="color: #888;" | Soudelor || style="color: #888;" | Fanapi || style="color: #888;" | Guchol
|-
|[[Philippines]] || Cimaron 0619 || style="color: #888;" | Hagibis
| style="color: #888;" | Molave || style="color: #888;" | Malakas || style="color: #888;" | Talim
|-
|[[South Korea|RO Korea]] || Chebi 0620 || style="color: #888;" | Noguri
| style="color: #888;" | Koni || style="color: #888;" | Megi || style="color: #888;" | Nabi
|-
|[[Thailand]] || [[Typhoon Durian|Durian 0621]] || style="color: #888;" | Rammasun
| style="color: #888;" | Morakot || style="color: #888;" | Chaba || style="color: #888;" | Khanun
|-
|[[U.S.A.]] || Utor 0622 || style="color: #888;" | Matmo
| style="color: #888;" | Etau || style="color: #888;" | Aere || style="color: #888;" | Vicente
|-
|[[Vietnam]] || Trami 0623 || style="color: #888;" | Halong
| style="color: #888;" | Vamco || style="color: #888;" | Songda || style="color: #888;" | Saola
|}


One storm, [[Hurricane Ioke]], entered the Western North Pacific from the Central North Pacific, retaining its name assigned by the [[Central Pacific Hurricane Center]]. It was given the international typhoon number ''0612'' by the JMA.


===Philippines===
thak you, very much. — [[User:Crazymadlover|Crazymadlover]]
The [[Philippine Atmospheric, Geophysical and Astronomical Services Administration]] (PAGASA) uses its own naming scheme for tropical cyclones within its area of responsibility. Lists are recycled every four years. On the 2006 list, the name "Gloria" was replaced by "Glenda".<ref name="pagasa">[http://www.pagasa.dost.gov.ph/genmet/rpnames.html Philippine Tropical Cyclone Names<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref>
{| width="90%"
|
* Agaton
* Basyang
* [[Typhoon Chanchu|Caloy 0601]]
* Domeng 0602
* [[Typhoon Ewiniar (2006)|Ester 0603]]
* [[Tropical Storm Bilis|Florita 0604]]
* Glenda 0605
|
* Henry 0606
* Inday 0609
* [[Typhoon Saomai|Juan 0608]]
* Katring 0611
* [[Typhoon Shanshan (2006)|Luis 0613]]
* [[Typhoon Xangsane|Milenyo 0615]]
* Neneng 0616
|
* Ompong
* Paeng 0619
* Queenie 0620
* [[Typhoon Durian|Reming 0621]]
* Seniang 0622
* Tomas 0623
* {{tcname unused|Usman}}
|
* {{tcname unused|Venus}}
* {{tcname unused|Waldo}}
* {{tcname unused|Yayang}}
* {{tcname unused|Zeny}}
* {{tcname unused|Agila}}
* {{tcname unused|Bagwis}}
* {{tcname unused|Chito}}
|
* {{tcname unused|Diego}}
* {{tcname unused|Elena}}
* {{tcname unused|Felino}}
* {{tcname unused|Gundig}}
* {{tcname unused|Harriet}}
* {{tcname unused|Indang}}
* {{tcname unused|Jessa}}
|}


===Retirement===
== Re-enable searches in the user talk space ==
At the 39th meeting of the ESCAP/WMO Typhoon Committee in [[Manila]] in [[December 2006]], it was decided that five names - [[Typhoon Chanchu|''Chanchu'']], [[Tropical Storm Bilis|''Bilis'']], [[Typhoon Saomai|''Saomai'']], [[Typhoon Xangsane|''Xangsane'']] and [[Typhoon Durian|''Durian'']] would be retired, with replacement names due to be submitted at the 40th annual meeting of the committee.<ref>[http://www.cma.gov.cn/qxxw/t20061213_171681.phtml ESCAP/WMO台风委员会第三十九次届会在菲律宾召开<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref> The names Sanba, Maliksi, Son Tinh, Leepi and Mangkhut were chosen respectively <ref>[http://www.webcitation.org/5TvESdRQg WebCite query result<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref>.


==See also==
As some might now (though I suspect most don't), user talk pages are no longer indexed thanks to [[bugzilla:13890]]. This was cited as the conesnous for that change: [[Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 25#Stopping search engines from indexing the user talk namespace?]]
{{tcportal}}
*[[List of Pacific typhoon seasons]]
*[[2006 Pacific hurricane season]]
*[[2006 Atlantic hurricane season]]
*[[2006 North Indian Ocean cyclone season]]
*South-West Indian Ocean cyclone seasons: [[2005-06 South-West Indian Ocean cyclone season|2005-06]], [[2006-07 South-West Indian Ocean cyclone season|2006-07]]
*Australian region cyclone seasons: [[2005-06 Australian region cyclone season|2005-06]], [[2006-07 Australian region cyclone season|2006-07]]
*South Pacific cyclone seasons: [[2005-06 South Pacific cyclone season|2005-06]], [[2006-07 South Pacific cyclone season|2006-07]]


==References==
I think I speak for a lot of people when I say '''''what the frak?'''''
{{reflist}}


==External links==
We've already got the <nowiki>__NOINDEX__</nowiki> magic words that let us exclude pages if there's an issue. There's no need for this change and there's a lot of reasons to oppose. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 02:58, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
{{Commons|2006 Pacific typhoon season}}
* [http://www.typhoon2000.ph Typhoon2000 Philippine typhoon website]
* [https://metocph.nmci.navy.mil/jtwc.html Joint Typhoon Warning Center]
* [http://www.jma.go.jp/jma/jma-eng/jma-center/rsmc-hp-pub-eg/tyname.html Meaning of typhoon names (JMA)]
* [http://www.jma.go.jp/en/typh/ Japan Meteorological Agency - Tropical Cyclone Information] [http://www.jma.go.jp/jp/typh/ (日本語)]
** [http://www.jma.go.jp/jma/jma-eng/jma-center/rsmc-hp-pub-eg/AnnualReport/2006/Text/Text2006.pdf 2006 Japan Meteorological Agency Report]
* [http://agora.ex.nii.ac.jp/digital-typhoon/ Digital Typhoon - Typhoon Images and Information]
* [http://www.pagasa.dost.gov.ph/ PAGASA - Tropical Cyclone Information for the Philippines]
* [http://www.hko.gov.hk/wxinfo/currwx/tc_pos.htm Tropical Cyclone Information issued by Hong Kong]
* [http://www.cwb.gov.tw/V5e/forecast/typhoon/Data/PTA/TyphAll_Eng.htm Tropical Cyclone Information issued by Taiwan]


{{2000-2009 Pacific typhoon seasons}}
*'''Support indexing''' as the nominator of this proposal. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 02:58, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose indexing''' per the inappropriate search results linked at [[Wikipedia talk:NOINDEX of noticeboards#Noindexing user talk space and other thoughts]]. Users sometimes post under their real names, and their user talk page may have "is biased editor", "is not notable" strewn all over it, which is not a good look and might harm unrelated people who happen to share the same name. About 99% of the content in the user talk namespace is fine; the other 1% should not be indexed by search engines. The Wikipedia search can be restricted to the user talk namespace [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=user_talk%3Asmidge like this]. I concede that noindexing user talk space is less important than noindexing pages like requests for arbitration, which are much more likely to contain defamatory content. '''[[User:Graham87|Graham]]'''<font color="green">[[User talk:Graham87|87]]</font> 03:32, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
**Removing 100% of user talk pages for the sake of 1% is a really bad idea. Our internal search leaves a ''lot'' to be desired, and we can opt out of indexing on a per-page basis thanks to <nowiki>__NOINDEX__</nowiki>. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 04:23, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support indexing''' until evidence is presented that Googles access to the user talk namespace is systematically causing harm it should not be hidden, if a user does not want his/her talk page index they can use the "[[WP:MAGIC|magic word]]" per Ned Scott. - '''[[User:Icewedge|Icewedge]] ([[User talk:Icewedge|talk]])''' 05:46, 26 September 2008 (UTC)


[[Category:Pacific typhoon seasons|2006]]
*'''Support indexing''', per my reasoning [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Namespaces_in_Robot.txt|above]] (repeated here for reference): Having a full and complete searchable index of wikipedia should be the norm, and only in a few cases where demonstrated and repeated harm has come to the project or individuals, and we're unable to contain it with normal editing, should we use sweeping technical measures like this rather than the usual revert and ignore. So, in absence of evidence of concrete harm google indexing of these namespaces has caused, I don't see any reason for a blanket prohibition on indexing. [de-indexing is] a poor technical solution to a social problem. I'm not blindly opposed to de-indexing pages - there are some cases where it can be a practical solution, but I don't think we should do it on a whim and in the absence of demonstrated harm. Wikipedia should be open, warts and all. <strong>[[user:henrik|<font color="#B38F00">henrik</font>]]<small>•[[user talk:henrik|<font color="#AFA29F">talk</font>]]</small></strong> 08:24, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
[[Category:2006 Pacific typhoon season| ]]


[[fr:Saison cyclonique 2006 dans le nord-ouest de l'océan Pacifique]]
*'''Support freedom of choice''': The choice of having userpages/talkpages appear in Google should be up to each individual user, not applied unilaterally to everyone. (In case anyone cares; I have NOINDEX tags on my userpage and talkpage). <span style="font-family:tahoma;font-size:80%;font-weight:bold;">~ [[User:Ameliorate!|<span style="color:black;">User:Ameliorate!</span>]]</span> <sup>(with the !) ([[User talk:Ameliorate!|talk]])</sup> 08:52, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
[[ko:2006년 태풍]]

[[nl:Tyfoonseizoen van de Grote Oceaan 2006]]
*'''Oppose indexing''' (Support noindexing) - Honestly, I'm not sure what the concern is. Is this another round of: "But I wanna use my external search engine"? Or is there something more than this? - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 09:27, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
[[ja:2006年の台風]]
*'''Oppose indexing''' - user space creates an area that is largely unmonitored for libel and spam. Indexing it is only asking for problems. --[[User:B|B]] ([[User talk:B|talk]]) 12:54, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
[[pt:Temporada de tufões no Pacífico de 2006]]
**What problems? There were no problems that couldn't be solved with our existing tools (blanking and NOINDEX magic word) for all of the years the userspace existed up until two weeks ago. Swing by [[WP:MFD]] sometime and see if your claim of being largely unmonitored is true. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 03:50, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
[[zh:2006年太平洋颱風季]]
*'''Oppose indexing''' - Agree with rationale provided by all the oppose comments above. '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 12:59, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
*Indexing is fine. Use the appropriate magic word if necessary. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle/wizard|talk]]) 15:23, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose indexing''' - We shouldn't put the convenience of a relatively small number of users who would need this kind of information in Google results over people's real lives. I really don't buy the "but the internal search isn't good enough" argument for user talk pages. You're either going to be searching for plain text on the page, in which case it should be fine, or you're going to be searching for the username, which if it isn't a real word, Google isn't going to be able to do much better than MediaWiki. <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 16:11, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
**I'd rather not believe that you are that ignorant about the shortcomings of our internal search. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 03:50, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
***I'd rather you give me some examples. What kind of cases do we need to search user talk pages, where the internal search isn't good enough but Google is? I can't even think of a need to search user talk space at all, besides possibly searching my own archives. Of course Google is better, they have 400000 servers to use for nothing but searching; I think we have something like 20 dedicated to searching. But you're talking like it doesn't work at all. From my experience, most of the complaints about the internal search are just people repeating other people's complaints without actually investigating it themselves. <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 17:29, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose indexing''' I want more spaces de-indexed, not this. '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 16:18, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' you can, actually, "opt in" to indexing by applying {{tl|Index}} to your talk page. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 18:16, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose indexing''' - If user talk pages were indexed, those pages would flood Google results. I remember when I searched for my user name before NOINDEX was added, user talk pages filled the results page. With NOINDEX, there are much more relevant results. Besides, if someone was looking for a user on Wikipedia, wouldn't they want a user page as a result, not a talk page? -- [[User:Imperator3733|Imperator3733]] ([[User talk:Imperator3733|talk]]) 18:37, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
**They were "flooding" Google results before, and it was fine. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 03:47, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose indexing''' per all the very valid reasons above. It is not that difficult to use Wikipedia's search to search User_talk: and User: this proposal is merely about being able to use an external search engine for that. I understand that it is better but we would flood search results and put lots of content that isn't monitored like rest of WIkipedia out to a wider range of people. [[User:Scottydude|Scotty]][[User talk:Scottydude|dude]] <sub><small>[[Wikipedia:Editor review/Scottydude|review]]</small></sub> 16:04, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose indexing''' due to users' entitlement to privacy coming above all else. <font color="#FFA000">╟─[[User:TreasuryTag|Treasury]]§[[User talk:TreasuryTag|Tag]]►[[Special:Contributions/TreasuryTag|contribs]]─╢</font> 16:17, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
**What kind of <s>ignorant dipshit</s> posts to a public website and claims they have any entitlement to privacy of those public comments? If you go shouting out in the streets then you don't get to complain if someone notices you. If anyone here needs to post something in private then they can use e-mail or any number of alternative options. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 03:47, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
***Probably the kind of ignorant dipshit who posts nonpublic information or blatant libel about someone other than himself. Or the kind of ignorant dipshit who comes to Wikipedia and doesn't realize when first making an account that there are websites set up specifically to out and harass Wikipedians. <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 17:29, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
****Excluding user talk from being indexed won't make those problems go away, and it's highly doubtful they'll even help the problems significantly. Libel information is found in the main article space, the main user space (drafts), and other talk namespaces all the time. I'm sorry, but we shouldn't be bending over backwards to the morons who post on the internet and are surprised when google finds it. My name was indexed on blog pages long before I ever became active on Wikipedia. Forum posts as well. Are you people new to the internet? You really have to be a fool to think that you have an entitlement to privacy when posting public comments on one of the largest websites on the internet. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 03:28, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
*****I'm not, but many of our users are. Its getting hard to tell if this proposal is about our convenience in administering the project, or issuing a big "screw you" to new users, based on your recent comments. You might be able to attract more support if you didn't act so emotionally attached, calling users "ignorant dipshits" and "morons." And I'm going to assume that "You really have to be a fool" was just a general statement, and not aimed at myself... <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 04:30, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
******Actually, most new users I come across know at least that much. Hell, my parents probably know better than to post anything private to the internet without being sure that it wasn't a public place. My point isn't to say "screw you", but rather my point is that the privacy issue only applies to an extreme minority. Rather than saying I'm emotionally attached, it's more of a case that I'm appalled at the lack of common sense here. I'm not saying that everyone who opposes indexing lacks that common sense, just the ones using rationales like "entitlement to privacy". I don't completely disagree with the idea, but I sure as hell know that no one is entitled to privacy on a public website.
******I'm also appalled that this change was done on a whim and with no community support, and no one seems bothered by that. You might not have a problem with it when it's something you agree with, but there's nothing stopping people from filing bug reports that you disagree with, and not being able to do a damn thing about it. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 10:02, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
******Z-man, I don't know why it is that in every debate I'm in with you, you always assume the wrost from me.
*******When you use terms like "ignorant dipshit" and say things that could possibly be construed as calling several users commenting here (including myself) fools, I'm not sure what you want me to think... <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 16:59, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
********Well.. I.. ok, I see your point.. Getting worked up in all of this does hurt my point, and I've made a lot of rude comments. My apologies, if that means anything. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 23:45, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose indexing''' What needs to be indexed by external search services is the encyclopedia, not the mechanics of making it. We can develop our own wp-internal indexes for that. Not just a matter of privacy, but of avoiding confusion. '''[[User:DGG|DGG]]''' ([[User talk:DGG|talk]]) 00:27, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
**Yeah, good luck with that. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 10:02, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose indexing'''. Since, as [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] points out, you can still cause pages to be indexed by use of the appropriate template, the question really becomes what the proper default should be for external search engines in user space. On balance, I do think that it is better to take this personal content, some of which includes working copies of articles that are not yet intended for article space, out of the search results. [[User:Xymmax|<b>Xymmax</b>]] [[User_talk:Xymmax|<small><sup>So let it be written</sup></small>]] [[Special:Contributions/Xymmax|<small><sub>So let it be done</sub></small>]] 15:07, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
**User space is still indexed. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 10:02, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
***It should also be non-indexed by default. [[User:Reyk|<font color="Maroon">'''Reyk'''</font>]] <sub>[[User talk:Reyk|'''<font color="Blue">YO!</font>''']]</sub> 20:41, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
**** I've put {{tl|index}} on my user page pre-emptively, in case your position ever wins out. <brrrrr> scary thought! ^^;; --[[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] ([[User talk:Kim Bruning|talk]]) 11:08, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose indexing''' - gang, we have enough reputation problems already, without the nonsense that fills so many talk pages being splattered across the search engine results. --[[User:Orangemike|<font color="darkorange">Orange Mike</font>]] &#x007C; [[User talk:Orangemike|<font color="orange">Talk</font>]] 19:02, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose Indexing'''- anyone who wants to opt in can do so by using the appropriate template; privacy should be the default. [[User:Reyk|<font color="Maroon">'''Reyk'''</font>]] <sub>[[User talk:Reyk|'''<font color="Blue">YO!</font>''']]</sub> 05:53, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
*: How does not indexing user talk space help privacy, can you explain? (Aren't those pages still published on the public internet?) Why is privacy actually desirable on wikipedia, according to you? --[[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] ([[User talk:Kim Bruning|talk]]) 11:06, 4 October 2008 (UTC) <small>''There are several people I know who refuse to answer e-mail, because they prefer to have their discussions on *public* talk pages. Hmmm, If those same people are exceptionally paranoid about it, would they now refuse to post to user talk as well? I wonder about that! :-)''</small>
*'''Oppose''' as user space is not a forwards facing space but an internal space. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 13:51, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Indexing please''' - people need to stop seeking solutions to problems that don't exist. –<font face="Verdana">[[User:Xenocidic|<font color="black">'''xeno'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Xenocidic|<font color="black">talk</font>]])</font> 14:41, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose indexing''' - When they were indexed these pages often came out highly placed in Google search results. That runs directly counter to the entire 'Wikipedia is not MySpace' philosophy. I even recall a recent article about a reporter who found that there was a, rather 'colorful', Wikipedia user with the same name as them... whose Wikipedia page came out as the top search result on the name. Wikipedia content should be indexed. The rest of it should not. Especially not userspace. --[[User talk:CBDunkerson|CBD]] 15:24, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose Indexing''' There is no need for the vast majority of internet users to be able to search anything other than the article, portal and maybe image spaces, and there is really no need for them to see any of the talk spaces. Nobody should be sent to a user talk page by google. The inconvenience to a few thousand editors is not worth cluttering up the search results for millions with irrelevant information. '''[[User:JimMillerJr|<span style="color:green">Jim Miller</span>]]''' <sup> [[Special:Contributions/JimMillerJr|See me]] | [[User talk:JimMillerJr|Touch me]]</sup> 17:36, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
* '''Oppose Indexing''' We're here to offer the convenience of an encyclopedia to the public, and that's it. There is no benefit to the public of allowing indexing of talk pages. As has been mentioned ad nauseum on a dozen conversations across a dozen dozen pages, unless BLP and standards involving living people (including editors themselves) are as rigorously enforced on talk pages, talk page archives, or any derivatives, we can't present this in "public" via anyone-can-find-it-search. It's too dangerous, reckless, and irresponsible. If there is still a problem with our internal search engine, for internal user-use, then that discussion or consideration has absolutely nothing to do with this no-indexing. That's a question of why volunteer developers are doing things other than fixing our broken search engine. <font color="0D670D" face="Georgia, Helvetica">[[User:Rootology|rootology]]</font> (<font color="#156917">[[Special:Contributions/Rootology|C]]</font>)(<font color="#156917">[[User talk:Rootology|T]]</font>) 13:24, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
* '''Oppose Indexing''' Dud idea, if you ask me... Can think of a good reason why I would want to search for my own (or somebody else's) contributions using Google. I can think of even fewer to allow the whole world to search for my contributions to talk pages and user-space articles. These spaces should not be indexed, FULL STOP. It should not even be an opt-in process. The nominator's [[WP:SARCASM|convincing rationale]] was "what the frak"... I don't think I need to say any more. [[User:Ohconfucius|Ohconfucius]] ([[User talk:Ohconfucius|talk]]) 13:58, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''oppose indexing''' Internal search has gotten better as of late and if there is any user space that has lots of issues it is probably user talk space. If we are going to go down this road in general then this might even make more sense than AN and ANI. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] ([[User talk:JoshuaZ|talk]]) 21:37, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose indexing'''. While in the end it's up to the user to make sure any privacy-invasive or otherwise dangerous material is not kept on their Talk page, not everyone is patrolling their talk pages every day; the chances of someone posting something on a talk page -- a personal attack, a posting using personally identifiable information, etc. -- is too great. As Ohconfucius says above, there's no use to be had in allowing a talk page to be indexed anyway. Many online forums -- Yahoo Groups comes to mind -- don't allow indexing of their pages; Talk pages, especially user talk pages, are often of the same principle as forum pages, and shouldn't be indexed, either. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] ([[User talk:23skidoo|talk]]) 05:55, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
* I'm strongly in support of indexing of user and user talk pages. I've undone the archiving of the discussion because something can only be snowballed if it's (virtually) unanimous, and that's not the case here. Besides, I have very strong reasons for having userspace google-able as well.
: Part of the implicit social contract of a collaborative project such as wikipedia is that it contributes to a persons' online reputation. We have precious little to reward (or punish) our users with as it stands.
: User: and User talk: are two places where outsiders can find out about a person's value to the project. You can tell I might be someone who relies on my online reputation, because I'm using my real name.
: Having your name explicitly linked to your actions, or prone to retribution is also something that keeps an awful lot of people honest. Google acts like a kind of third-party oversight.
:Wikipedia is a public location. Everything you do is public, with all the privileges and responsibilities that entails. So it has always been, so it should stay.
: Whatever the ultimate decision, however, I'll be adding {{tl|index}} to all my user and user talk pages over time. I think I've built up a few of those over time ^^;;
: --[[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] ([[User talk:Kim Bruning|talk]]) 10:44, 4 October 2008 (UTC) <small>''And... done that <ouw my poor wrists :-(>''</small>
:: Kim, I appreciate the sentiment but is there any real evidence that anyone cares enough that they would not create problems because of this worry? I suspect that most real troublemakers won't ever be involved enough to find out what our policy is in regard to page indexing. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] ([[User talk:JoshuaZ|talk]]) 23:22, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

===Another issue===
Regardless of who supports what, is anyone else bothered by the fact that this change was first made without any real discussion? I know we don't want to give the devs grief over stuff like this, which is most likely a misunderstanding (AGF), but we really need a better way of dealing with these kinds of changes. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 03:56, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
*I think it is unfair to say there wasn't discussion, because I can remember reading discussion on this point all the time I've been here. However, I agree that perhaps we do need to centralise these discussions better, and that bug reporting and interface tweaks can have ramifications that merit discussion. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 13:51, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
**What I meant was that there was only one cited thread, and in that thread there really wasn't any discussion. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 02:33, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*Agreed, there was hardly consensus for the change (at the time). –<font face="Verdana">[[User:Xenocidic|<font color="black">'''xeno'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Xenocidic|<font color="black">talk</font>]])</font> 14:41, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
*Actually, we HAVE a centralized place for these kinds of discussions... Bugzilla itself. Unfortunately, most people don't keep an eye on that. Might make sense to have a local page listing recent suggestions so people know to go there and comment. Maybe a column in the 'signpost' or part of the existing B.R.I.O.N. column. --[[User talk:CBDunkerson|CBD]] 15:24, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
** Please God do not use Bugzilla as a chat forum. It is most definitely not intended to be used as such. A board like this one is where discussion about changes to the project's configuration should take place, with possible cross-posting to other places. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 15:46, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
*** We can have all the discussion we like on Wikipedia, but if all the developers see is the request on Bugzilla then that's all they have to go on. Ultimately, somebody ''has'' to go there and say, 'please do not do this because it has problems X, Y, and Z'. --[[User talk:CBDunkerson|CBD]] 16:42, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
**** Right. The correct procedure is having all the discussion about a new proposal or configuration change here or on a similar noticeboard. And then when ready, someone files a bug with the 'shell' keyword and links to the oldid of the on-wiki discussion. And, within two hours or two years, a sysadmin will resolve the bug. :-) --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 02:25, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

===early close comments===
::''moved from above, since the discussion has reopened''
I'm closing this now as it seems to be [[WP:SNOW|snowballing]]. It seems like the widely held consensus is that User talk: pages should remain noindexed as was set by the developers. While there may or may not have been consensus for this at the time, it's clear from this discussion that the majority of interested users are uncomfortable with the indexing of these pages for a wide range of reasons, including but not limited to: confusion between people; confusion between encyclopedic content and userspace content; privacy and "outing" concerns from attack sites; lack of need due to built-in search functions; etc. While it is true the outing concerns do not happen often, they do occur often enough that we regularly see otherwise good editors leave the project due to what essentially boils down to blackmail in the loosest of terms <small>(I do not intend to make any sort of legal accusation/threat/statement with that comment, that is simply my personal observation on previous matters)</small>. Removing these pages from Google will not stop that (and I notice nobody said that here), but it will certainly slow it down, as well as address many of the other concerns raised about indexing.

If a user wishes to have their usertalk page indexed by search engines, they are entitled to do so by adding the template {{tl|INDEX}} to their user talk page. This will override [[mw:Manual:$wgNamespaceRobotPolicies|$wgNamespaceRobotPolicies]] and grant access by search bots to your talk page. Some time should be allowed after the addition for the googlebots to get around to finding it again, but ideally the page should be searchable by external engines within a week or so. Naturally, users should not add this template to any page but their own; this is a personal choice, and users have the right to decline search indexing if they wish. Since the great majority of those here are declining it, the default will remain as-is; noindex. [[User:Hersfold|'''''<em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers</em><em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold</em>''''']] <sup>([[User:Hersfold/t|t]]/[[User:Hersfold/a|a]]/[[Special:Contributions/Hersfold|c]])</sup> 21:17, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

== Straw poll for "view-deleted activation" now open ==

In June 2008 the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee|Arbitration Committee]] announced a request that the English Wikipedia consider allowing some non-administrators the ability to view deleted material. The summary of the announcement was

:''The activation of the passive "can view deleted" right, and a policy allowing its grant for good cause, would allow non-administrator users to gain wider participation in the English Wikipedia community. For details and discussion, see [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/June 2008 announcements/Activation of view-deleted-pages]]''

Note that this is a request that the idea be considered, nothing stronger. The announcement led to [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)/Persistent_proposals#Proposal: Allow established/experienced editors to see deleted contributions|this proposal]]. As this conversation has gone on for several months, the proposal has shifted around quite a bit. This makes it very unclear where editors are currently giving their support or opposition. For the sake of clarity, I am attempting to pick out the main proposals, and create a straw poll around them. Please share your opinion at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Persistent proposals/Straw poll for view-deleted]]. ~ '''[[User:JohnnyMrNinja|<font color="#206080">JohnnyMrNinja</font>]]''' 09:05, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

:'''The proposal has been marked as "failed to gain consensus"''', following a statement by the legal counsel for the Wikimedia Foundation. See the [[Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Persistent proposals/Straw poll for view-deleted|straw poll page]] for details. -- <font style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </font> [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 23:51, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

== Straw poll notice on Watchlist ==

I would like to put a notification about the "view-deleted" straw poll in the watchlist. My reasoning is that this is a big decision that will affect all users, possibly the way that Wikipedia works, but not everyone reads the noticeboards where I posted messages. Also these noticeboards move rather quickly (especially WP:AN), so this will make sure that more people have a chance to see it. This is the line I would like added -
:A poll is now open to determine if non-administrators should be able to view deleted pages. All editors are asked to voice their opinions [[Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Persistent proposals/Straw poll for view-deleted|here]].

Thoughts? ~ '''[[User:JohnnyMrNinja|<font color="#206080">JohnnyMrNinja</font>]]''' 16:26, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

:'''The proposal has been marked as "failed to gain consensus"''', following a statement by the legal counsel for the Wikimedia Foundation. See the [[Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Persistent proposals/Straw poll for view-deleted|straw poll page]] for details. -- <font style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </font> [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 23:51, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

== Categories at the bottom - Dots instead of "|"s ==

This is a proposal for an interface change in relation to categories as seen at the bottom of each page. I don't know if this is the right place for this, and if not redirection would be appreciated.

I would like to see dots such as "•" or similar to replace the "|" that seperates the categories, for aesthetics reasons. It is much easier on the eyes, as the wouldn't be any confusion between "1"s, "I"s and so forth. Many templates now use dots instead of |'s. <span style="background-color: maroon; color: white;font-family: Trebuchet MS; cursor: crosshair;"><small>'''&nbsp;[[User:SpecialWindler|<span style="cursor: crosshair;"><font color="yellow">The Windler</font></span>]]''' '''[[User talk:SpecialWindler|<span style="cursor: crosshair;"><font color="white">talk</font></span>]]'''&nbsp;</small></span> 09:50, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
:A very good idea! --[[User:Kildor|Kildor]] ([[User talk:Kildor|talk]]) 10:20, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

:This is a good idea, but it might be part of the software, in which case we would need to get the devs to make the change. I'm not sure if they would do that. -- [[User:Imperator3733|Imperator3733]] ([[User talk:Imperator3733|talk]]) 16:35, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

:I agree. Take this to Bugzilla. [[User:Paragon12321|<span style="color:blue">Paragon</span>]][[User talk:Paragon12321|<span style="color:red"><sup>12321</sup></span>]] 16:38, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

:Have a sysop edit [[MediaWiki:Catseparator]]. <b style="color:#c22">^</b>[[User:^demon|<b style="color:#000">demon</b>]][[User_talk:^demon|<sup style="color:#c22">[omg plz]</sup>]]&nbsp;<em style="font-size:10px;">16:48, 30 September 2008 (UTC)</em>
::Is there a way for an individual to override the page (javascript or whatnot)? It'd be nice if we could choose whatever character we want to distinguish categories. [[User:EVula|EVula]] <span style="color: #999;">// [[User talk:EVula|talk]] // [[User:EVula/admin|<span style="color: #366;">&#9775;</span>]] //</span> 18:17, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
:::Can't give it an id, but couldn't you wrap it in a (span) class? --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 01:45, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

There seems to be some support and various suggestions. Which suggestion will get the task done. I don't understand some of the suggestions. <span style="background-color: maroon; color: white;font-family: Trebuchet MS; cursor: crosshair;"><small>'''&nbsp;[[User:SpecialWindler|<span style="cursor: crosshair;"><font color="yellow">The Windler</font></span>]]''' '''[[User talk:SpecialWindler|<span style="cursor: crosshair;"><font color="white">talk</font></span>]]'''&nbsp;</small></span> 02:01, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
:The | separator is common throughout the software. (Look at the top of Special:Watchlist or the "Recent changes options" at Special:RecentChanges or at Special:Contributions/User.) I see no compelling reason to change it. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 06:05, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

::I don't really mind if their all changed. This is a proposal, not a change. Lets see what others think. <span style="background-color: maroon; color: white;font-family: Trebuchet MS; cursor: crosshair;"><small>'''&nbsp;[[User:SpecialWindler|<span style="cursor: crosshair;"><font color="yellow">The Windler</font></span>]]''' '''[[User talk:SpecialWindler|<span style="cursor: crosshair;"><font color="white">talk</font></span>]]'''&nbsp;</small></span> 07:26, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I don't think it would be bad if only the category separator was changed while the Watchlist and Recent Changes pages remained the same. (Although I wouldn't mind if they were as well) I really like the idea of a dot rather than a pipe. It is only a matter of editing [[MediaWiki:Catseparator]]. [[User:Scottydude|Scotty]][[User talk:Scottydude|dude]] <sub><small>[[Wikipedia:Editor review/Scottydude|review]]</small></sub> 14:32, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I don't think that is correct. We don't have a MediaWiki:Catseparator which was autodeleted as "No longer required" more than a year ago. [[User:Rmhermen|Rmhermen]] ([[User talk:Rmhermen|talk]]) 04:04, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
::::: No, it is correct. [[MediaWiki:Catseparator]] was deleted by [[User:MediaWiki default]], with an edit summary that comes from [http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/phase3/maintenance/deleteDefaultMessages.php maintenance/deleteDefaultMessages.php]. It looks like MediaWiki messages were formerly all created by default during the install, and then that was changed and that script was run to delete messages that had not been changed since the install. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 11:21, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

::::::So, do I need to go to this Bugzilla place or get an administrator to change this MediaWiki:Catseparator. This is getting a bit confusing. But to me, there seems to be some support. <span style="background-color: maroon; color: white;font-family: Trebuchet MS; cursor: crosshair;"><small>'''&nbsp;[[User:SpecialWindler|<span style="cursor: crosshair;"><font color="yellow">The Windler</font></span>]]''' '''[[User talk:SpecialWindler|<span style="cursor: crosshair;"><font color="white">talk</font></span>]]'''&nbsp;</small></span> 11:41, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
:Any en.wiki administrator can change the separators in the category display to dots by creating [[MediaWiki:Catseparator]] with content other than the default pipe, providing there is a consensus to do so. Changing other pipe separators (eg in the watchlist) is not possible except by asking the developers to assign them a MediaWiki message. <font color="forestgreen">[[User:Happy-melon|'''Happy''']]</font>‑<font color="darkorange">[[User talk:Happy-melon|'''melon''']]</font> 12:00, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

:'''I'm gonna do it unless someone tells me not to.''' I hope that gets people's attention. If there is consensus here for the change after seventy-two hours from the timestamp in my signature, someone can drop me a reminder on my talk page and I'll create the appropriate [[MediaWiki:Catseparator]]. [[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 23:36, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
::That sounds like a good idea. 72 hours seems like enough time, plus I can't really come up with any reasons that people would have other to not do this. I'll try to remember to remind you :) -- [[User:Imperator3733|Imperator3733]] ([[User talk:Imperator3733|talk]]) 23:44, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

:::Thanks, it save me. I slightly become confused in the technical aspect. But thanks. <span style="background-color: maroon; color: white;font-family: Trebuchet MS; cursor: crosshair;"><small>'''&nbsp;[[User:SpecialWindler|<span style="cursor: crosshair;"><font color="yellow">The Windler</font></span>]]''' '''[[User talk:SpecialWindler|<span style="cursor: crosshair;"><font color="white">talk</font></span>]]'''&nbsp;</small></span> 00:01, 3 October 2008 (U

It is possible to do this via the following user script, without the need to make any global changes:
<source lang="javascript">
addOnloadHook( function (){
var cat_div = document.getElementById('mw-normal-catlinks');
cat_div.innerHTML = cat_div.innerHTML.replace(/\|/g,'•');
});
</source>
- [[User:SigmaEpsilon|SigmaEpsilon]] → [[User_talk:SigmaEpsilon|Σ]]<span class="plainlinks">[http://tools.wikimedia.de/~interiot/cgi-bin/Tool1/wannabe_kate?username=SigmaEpsilon&amp;site=en.wikipedia.org Ε]</span> 01:53, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

:WTF?? <span style="background-color: maroon; color: white;font-family: Trebuchet MS; cursor: crosshair;"><small>'''&nbsp;[[User:SpecialWindler|<span style="cursor: crosshair;"><font color="yellow">The Windler</font></span>]]''' '''[[User talk:SpecialWindler|<span style="cursor: crosshair;"><font color="white">talk</font></span>]]'''&nbsp;</small></span> 03:59, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
::SigmaEpsilon is just saying that you can use that script on your monobook page and the pipes ("|") will change to dots but only for you, when you are logged in. I still '''support''' the idea of making the change for all viewers. [[User:Scottydude|Scottydude]] <sub><small>[[User talk:Scottydude|talk]]</small></sub> 04:35, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Gah. I see |'s used throughout the software, and I like it that way. Yes, this issue is primarily about personal preference, so please don't quote [[WP:ILIKEIT]] to me. I '''oppose''' this proposal as given unless I can be convinced that it won't disrupt the consistency of the interface, as other interface elements use pipes (|'s), as MZMcBride notes, and the effective change would only change category separators. Until it becomes a personal preference option, I don't think this should be changed. <nowiki>{</nowiki>{[[User:Nihiltres|<span style="color:#233D7A;">Nihiltres</span>]]<nowiki>|</nowiki><span class="plainlinks">[[User talk:Nihiltres|talk]]<nowiki>|</nowiki>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Log?user=Nihiltres log]</span>}<nowiki>}</nowiki> 04:51, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

::As I have said, it dosen't matter to me if the entire interface is changed. I believe however that the only use in the mainspace that most people view is the categories. And as you said, this topic is majorly about personal preference. But why shouldn't we question the personal preference of the developer(s) of the software. Why is their preference correct. I provided my explanation, in my original comment, that the dots are better to avoid confusion as such. <span style="background-color: maroon; color: white;font-family: Trebuchet MS; cursor: crosshair;"><small>'''&nbsp;[[User:SpecialWindler|<span style="cursor: crosshair;"><font color="yellow">The Windler</font></span>]]''' '''[[User talk:SpecialWindler|<span style="cursor: crosshair;"><font color="white">talk</font></span>]]'''&nbsp;</small></span> 05:56, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

:If you wanted to, I'm sure you could modify the above script to switch the bullets to pipes. I'm sure it would be possible to implement this as a preference, but some people in the past have objected to the large number of preferences. We could always implement the pipe -> bullet change, and if a lot of people object, then we could consider implementing it as a preference. (I actually don't think that many people will notice this change, though, although I could be wrong) -- [[User:Imperator3733|Imperator3733]] ([[User talk:Imperator3733|talk]]) 04:59, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

About consistency of the interface: As far as I can tell, only "internal" pages use the | as a separator. In mainspace, the dot is the more commonly used separator. As example, take a look at the [[Main Page]]! --[[User:Kildor|Kildor]] ([[User talk:Kildor|talk]]) 08:34, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I support the change from pipe to dot, a dot is more ergonomic and also helps site consistency. If somebody wants to keep the pipe for whatever reason, he can use the user script. [[User:Cacycle|Cacycle]] ([[User talk:Cacycle|talk]]) 15:30, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

:By the way, it might by just my computer/the way I did it but I put that code in my monobook and it didn't work. My monobook now consists only of that code above. It had nothing before. <span style="background-color: maroon; color: white;font-family: Trebuchet MS; cursor: crosshair;"><small>'''&nbsp;[[User:SpecialWindler|<span style="cursor: crosshair;"><font color="yellow">The Windler</font></span>]]''' '''[[User talk:SpecialWindler|<span style="cursor: crosshair;"><font color="white">talk</font></span>]]'''&nbsp;</small></span> 22:08, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

::Either we should keep the pipe as a separator, and provide editors with the option of dots as a [[Wikipedia:Gadget|gadget]], or the reverse - change the separator to be dots, and provide editors with a gadget to change it back to the pipe. We don't need to force absolutely everyone to see exactly the same thing, nor to have to know how to (and be willing to) modify their .js page in order to avoid something they don't like. -- <font style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </font> [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 23:41, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

So what happens now???? <span style="background-color: maroon; color: white;font-family: Trebuchet MS; cursor: crosshair;"><small>'''&nbsp;[[User:SpecialWindler|<span style="cursor: crosshair;"><font color="yellow">The Windler</font></span>]]''' '''[[User talk:SpecialWindler|<span style="cursor: crosshair;"><font color="white">talk</font></span>]]'''&nbsp;</small></span> 02:43, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
: I've implemented it but someone may need to check it to see that it's OK, as a bot previously deleted the page I edited ([[MediaWiki:Catseparator]]) and pulled the data in from another source. [[User talk:Orderinchaos|Orderinchaos]] 05:29, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

::It works on this page I believe. <span style="background-color: maroon; color: white;font-family: Trebuchet MS; cursor: crosshair;"><small>'''&nbsp;[[User:SpecialWindler|<span style="cursor: crosshair;"><font color="yellow">The Windler</font></span>]]''' '''[[User talk:SpecialWindler|<span style="cursor: crosshair;"><font color="white">talk</font></span>]]'''&nbsp;</small></span> 05:39, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

::But it dosen't work when I go out as a IP. <span style="background-color: maroon; color: white;font-family: Trebuchet MS; cursor: crosshair;"><small>'''&nbsp;[[User:SpecialWindler|<span style="cursor: crosshair;"><font color="yellow">The Windler</font></span>]]''' '''[[User talk:SpecialWindler|<span style="cursor: crosshair;"><font color="white">talk</font></span>]]'''&nbsp;</small></span> 05:43, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Sometimes when a change goes out, for reasons relating to database load, it takes a while to percolate through all pages. If it's still doing that in 12 or 24 hours, let us know. [[User talk:Orderinchaos|Orderinchaos]] 06:16, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

:I '''oppose''' this change.

:I'm using the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&useskin=cologneblue Cologne Blue] skin. I'm sure large, in-your-face bullet separators are fine if you're using [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&useskin=monobook MonoBook]. It makes sense for MonoBook users to enable this through [[Wikipedia:Skin|monobook.js]]. However, a global change like this should be compatible with all skins, not just the default. Cologne Blue places categories at the ''top of the page'' underneath pipe-separated interwiki links and above the "Printable version | Disclaimers | Privacy policy" row, so this is a dramatic change. Even the top-level navigation ("Main Page | About | Help | FAQ | Special pages | Log out") is pipe-separated in Cologne Blue, so the bullets look conspicuously out-of-place. This mismatched UI is not something we have to scroll down to see: it's the first thing we see at the top of every page.

:The new [[MediaWiki:Catseparator|separator]] is a [[Template:•|bullet]] rather than a [[Template:·|middot]]. Bullets make the whole block of categories pop. That's fine for navigation templates, where the links are used for... well, navigation. But that's not the case with categories, which are much more likely to be navigated ''to'' rather than ''from''. Also, the more discreet middots appear to be much more common in navigation boxes than bullets.

:Most importantly, this is a broad change that so far has only been discussed by a handful of people. I had to poke around in the HTML before getting lucky with a [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=mw-normal-catlinks+delimiter+|+separator&btnG=Google+Search&meta= google search] to find this discussion. Soon, even that won't work. If anyone can think of a good place to post a link to this discussion so that more people can contribute, then please shout.

:[[User:Chocolateboy|chocolateboy]] ([[User talk:Chocolateboy|talk]]) 13:48, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

::I had a look what that skin would look like if all the line separators were replaced with bullets, I think it looks better with bullets: [http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/M132T003C/linesforbullets.png screenshot] (ignore the slight blurring caused by Photobucket resizing the image). Surely the best way forward is to simply replace the lines with bullets wherever they appear, I can't see the problem unless people really think that the lines look better… [[User:MTC|MTC]] ([[User talk:MTC|talk]]) 14:21, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

:They do look pretty good in that shot (though it looks like you're using bold middots rather than bullets).

::''Surely the best way forward is to simply replace the lines with bullets wherever they appear''

:I think the ideal solution would be for MediaWiki to use [[unordered list]]s for all such lists, and to leave the styling to the skin's CSS.

:However, I don't think either of these solutions (all bullets/middots vs semantic markup and CSS) are much help at the moment. Here's a [http://bayimg.com/image/palocaabf.jpg screenshot] of the current mishmash.

:[[User:Chocolateboy|chocolateboy]] ([[User talk:Chocolateboy|talk]]) 14:57, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

:: Please could you explain how you produced those saucers in your [http://bayimg.com/image/palocaabf.jpg screenshot]. I have tried different browsers and skins and was not able to produce such enormous bullets. This is how it looks <s>in</s> [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Knight_(Film)?useskin=cologneblue <s>reality</s>online]. [[User:Cacycle|Cacycle]] ([[User talk:Cacycle|talk]]) 01:06, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:::Hmmmm..... How about this: &#149;&nbsp;<big>&#149;&nbsp;<big>&#149;&nbsp;<big>&#149;&nbsp;<big>&#149;&nbsp;<big>&#149;&nbsp;</big></big></big></big></big>?-- [[User:Wtmitchell|Boracay Bill]] ([[User talk:Wtmitchell|talk]]) 02:14, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:In "[[WP:AGF|reality]]"? I'm using Firefox 3.0.3 on Linux with standard [http://www.sharpfonts.com/ Windows] fonts and font sizes.

:[[User:Chocolateboy|chocolateboy]] ([[User talk:Chocolateboy|talk]]) 09:45, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:: Sorry :-) Maybe it is a bug in your "Sharpfonts" package - how does it look with the default font settings? We should use midpoints if the bullets look like saucers for a large proportion of Linux users. [[User:Cacycle|Cacycle]] ([[User talk:Cacycle|talk]]) 13:22, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:[http://www.sharpfonts.com Sharpfonts] isn't really a package. It's just a way of configuring Linux fonts to look like Windows XP fonts. The interwikis, categories and "Printable version | Disclaimers | Privacy policy" text all use the default font, which in my case is [[Verdana]] size 16. Verdana's a standard font, [http://www.codestyle.org/css/font-family/sampler-CombinedResults.shtml particularly on Windows], and, AFAIK, size 16 is the default Firefox font size. [http://www.freemac.net/files/set_font_firefox_140.jpg][http://prognathous.mail-central.com/prognathous/mozilla/beos/fonts/firefox1.png][http://www.weiqigao.com/blog/images/firefox-font-dialog.png]

:Here's what the [http://bayimg.com/image/nalcaaabg.jpg Dot size reference list] (from [[Template:%E2%80%A2]]) and [[User:Wtmitchell|Boracay Bill]]'s [http://bayimg.com/image/nalcbaabg.jpg solar system] look like on my system. Saucers indeed!
:[[User:Chocolateboy|chocolateboy]] ([[User talk:Chocolateboy|talk]]) 14:51, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:: The problem turned out to be the [[Verdana]] font - bullets in Verdana are much bigger than in [[Arial]]. For operating system and font compatibility we have to use (bold) midpoints, not the bullet symbol. [[User:Cacycle|Cacycle]] ([[User talk:Cacycle|talk]]) 18:35, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:::Would you mind posting a screenshot of what bold <s>midpoints</s> middots look like in the lists? [[User:MTC|MTC]] ([[User talk:MTC|talk]]) 19:00, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Please get rid of the bullets: they are ''far'' too bold, drawing the eye from across the page. Use either midpoints, which are acceptable typographic separators, or vertical lines, which are common link separators on websites (although it's true that they can slow down reading by looking like figure 1's, small l's, or capital I's).

Please follow two millennia of writing conventions rather than trying out new ideas. If you don't believe me, see what the expert says: search in [[Bringhurst (book)]] ([http://www.amazon.com/Elements-Typographic-Style-Robert-Bringhurst/dp/0881792063/ref=si3_rdr_bb_product Amazon]) for ''bullet'' (p 304), “used chiefly as a typographic flag . . . to mark items in a list, or . . . to separate larger blocks of text,” and ''midpoint'' (p 313), “an ancient European mark of punctuation, widely used . . . to separate items in a horizontal line”. Thanks.&nbsp;''—[[User:Mzajac |Michael]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mzajac |Z.]]&nbsp;<small>2008-10-09&nbsp;05:40&nbsp;z</small>''


===RfC: Category Separator===

*{{RFCstyle| section=RfC: Category Separator !! reason=Should categories be separated by bullets (•), middots (·) or pipes (|)? !! time= 17:03, 6 October 2008 (UTC) }}

Here's my summary of the discussion [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Categories_at_the_bottom_-_Dots_instead_of_.22.7C.22s|above]] (please correct any mis-/missing attributions). Note that there is a difference between middots and bullets (see the "Dot size reference list" section [[Template:•|here]]). The OP suggests a dot rather than a bullet, so it would be helpful if this could be clarified.

====Support (dot or bullet) ====
# [[User:SpecialWindler|The Windler]]
# [[User:Kildor|Kildor]]
# [[User:Imperator3733|Imperator3733]]
# [[User:Paragon12321|Paragon12321]]
# [[User:^demon|^demon]]
# [[User:Scottydude|Scottydude]]
# [[User:Keith D|Keith D]]
# Looks a tiny bit better, IMO. --[[User:Conti|Conti]]|[[User talk:Conti|✉]] 01:09, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
# I kinda like the bullet/dot version, too. [[User:Abyssal|Abyssal]] ([[User talk:Abyssal|talk]]) 01:39, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

====Support (dot only) ====

# [[User:Cacycle|Cacycle]] The bullets are obtrusive saucers using the Verdana font (see above), we should use (bold) midpoints for OS / font compatibility
# [[User talk:Orderinchaos|Orderinchaos]] 09:08, 8 October 2008 (UTC) (double vote, I know, but I can understand the Verdana font issue raised.)
# [[User:Sardanaphalus]]. I think I'd prefer the bold-middot as used in templates. The bullet is too bold, while the middot alone is too small/faint. I don't think the vertical-line is as effective as a (bold) dot because it can resemble an uppercase 'I' or lowercase 'l'. How about making a choice between vertical-line, bold-middot, bullet or something else part of the user preferences?
# [[User:Davidgothberg|David Göthberg]] – The [[Template:•|bullet]]{{•}} was too intense, and as has been shown above it was even larger for some users. I find the current vertical bar | fairly okay, so I don't have that much of a personal point of view. But after much experimenting over the years the consensus for navboxes have become [[Template:·|bold middots]]{{·}} , so I think we should at least try it out for a day or so and see what people think. And note, that navbox consensus is for '''bold''' middots, not just middots · .
# The bullet is too bold, anything else is better, especially the “dot” (midpoint). See my comment above, with reference.&nbsp;''—[[User:Mzajac |Michael]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mzajac |Z.]]&nbsp;<small>2008-10-09&nbsp;05:40&nbsp;z</small>''
# Based on the ''de facto'' navbox standard, I support the use of bold middots for consistency. [[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 15:48, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
====Support (bullet only) ====
# [[User:MTC|MTC]]

====Oppose (pipe)====
# [[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]]
# [[User:Nihiltres|Nihiltres]]
# [[User:Chocolateboy|chocolateboy]]
# [[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.Z-man]] - Inconsistent with the rest of the software and looks especially bad in some non-monobook skins.
# '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup>
# Didn't weigh in in teh discussion, but having seen the change I don't like how it looks. –<font face="Verdana">[[User:Xenocidic|<font color="black">'''xeno'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Xenocidic|<font color="black">talk</font>]])</font> 17:35, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
# [[User talk:emerson7|emerson7]] 17:56, 6 October 2008 (UTC) i absolutely hate it!
# I just noticed this change. I'm not too crazy about it, but it's not the sort of thing I'll lose much sleep over. --[[User:Bongwarrior|Bongwarrior]] ([[User talk:Bongwarrior|talk]]) 06:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
# Not terrible but the pipe was better. <font color="#708090">[[user:Icewedge#|''Icewedge'']]</font> (<font color="2F4F4F">[[user talk:icewedge|''talk'']]</font>) 06:53, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
# Doesn't fit in well with the rest of the interface. [[User talk:Islander|<sub><font color="DarkGray">'''Talk'''</font></sub>]][[User:Islander|<font color="Blue">'''Islander'''</font>]] 13:47, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
# —[[User:Animum|<b style="color:#002BB8">Animum</b>]] <small>([[User_talk:Animum|''talk'']])</small> 01:35, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
# The pipe was better. [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] ([[User talk:The Anome|talk]]) 00:49, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
#I spent an age searching through my preferences to see if something had glitched when these lumps started appearing in place of the simple lines. I'd have no objections if it was possible to choose between them in skins/preferences/whatever, but I must say that I prefer the ol' piping. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 01:31, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
#Not that it's a big deal, but I prefer the pipe (I think). -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 03:55, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
#Ditto with Ned. '''''[[User:Bibliomaniac15|<font color="black">bibliomaniac</font>]][[User talk:Bibliomaniac15|<font color="red">1</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Bibliomaniac15|<font color="blue">5</font>]]''''' 04:13, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
# With the bullets I thought I was looking at a bloody navbox. Pipes are much more associated with "interface", at least in my mind. [[User:The Duke of Waltham|Waltham]], <small>[[User talk:The Duke of Waltham|''The Duke of'']]</small> 05:17, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

=====Re: Oppose=====
Some general remarks to comments above in this section: 1. The current bullets are problematic with certain fonts, therefore we will most probably use an unobtrusive bold middot ('''·''') instead. 2. It is the pipes which are inconsistent with the current Wikipedia styles (e.g. as agreed upon for templates), not the dots. 3. All anonymous users (our main audience) use monobook as well as the vast majority of registered users. I do not think that some minor aesthetic issue for the minuscule fraction of users of other skins should prevent us from fixing it for all other users. 4. There will almost certainly not be a gadget for such a minor issue that can easily be changed with one line of code on the monobook.js page as described above. [[User:Cacycle|Cacycle]] ([[User talk:Cacycle|talk]]) 14:45, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

:"we will most probably use an unobtrusive bold middot." There's currently no consensus to make any change. [[User:Chocolateboy|chocolateboy]] ([[User talk:Chocolateboy|talk]]) 19:05, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

====Couldn't have less of an opinion (either is fine)====
# I only noticed the change after it was pointed out here. I'm fine either way. --[[User:Stephan Schulz|Stephan Schulz]] ([[User talk:Stephan Schulz|talk]]) 07:01, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

==== It doesn't matter that much IF a [[WP:Gadget|gadget]] is provided to give editors a choice ====
# Either we should keep the pipe as a separator, and provide editors with the option of dots (or whatever) as a [[Wikipedia:Gadget|gadget]], or the reverse - change the separator to be dots (or whatever), and provide editors with a gadget to change it back to the pipe. '''We don't need to force absolutely everyone to see exactly the same thing''', nor should editors have to know how to (and be willing to) modify their .js page in order to avoid something they don't like. (We've had this kind of discussion before, with changing the "+" tab to read "new section"; that's why there is a gadget to change the tab back to "+" for those who prefer the prior way.) -- <font style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </font> [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 16:55, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
#: Fair enough, but I think we should try to avoid adding too many gadgets. The proverbial slippery slope... [[User:The Duke of Waltham|Waltham]], <small>[[User talk:The Duke of Waltham|''The Duke of'']]</small> 05:23, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
#:: The right way to implement this would be to structure the list of categories as an ordered list &lt;ol>, and set the format for inline separators using CSS. Then any logged-in editor could add a simple line of code to their monobook.css to change the separator. This works for the action tabs at the top of the page, so even MSIE isn't too retarded to let this work.&nbsp;''—[[User:Mzajac |Michael]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mzajac |Z.]]&nbsp;<small>2008-10-10&nbsp;05:59&nbsp;z</small>''
#:::Michael Z / Mzajac: I assume you mean an unordered list &lt;ul>, right? Anyway, I have seen this CSS request for many lists many times here on Wikipedia. But I am still waiting for anyone to show ''how'' to code that in a way that works. I have seen code for CSS based vertical bars and for CSS based insertion of an image based dot. But an image based dot does not scale up when a user "zooms" (that is sets his browser to show a larger text size). So, do you know a CSS based way to insert a character like for instance a bold middot? --[[User:Davidgothberg|David Göthberg]] ([[User talk:Davidgothberg|talk]]) 07:31, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
#::::It can be done in Firefox, Opera and Safari [http://milov.nl/2883], but not, currently, in [http://farm1.static.flickr.com/63/206286819_fc25dea57f.jpg?v=0 IE] :-) (unless [http://annevankesteren.nl/2005/01/comma-separated-list this] works). [[User:Chocolateboy|chocolateboy]] ([[User talk:Chocolateboy|talk]]) 19:23, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
#::::: There's also a basic article on list manipulation at A List Apart (“[http://www.alistapart.com/stories/taminglists/ Taming Lists]”). In modern browsers it can be done with <code>li:before { content: }</code>, which ''does'' resize the bullet with text. Using border-left is suitable for generating the vertical line, and works in MSIE, too, so it could be a useful default behaviour. No one seems to worry about Wikipedia's ubiquitous blue unordered-list bullet getting resized, so maybe this won't be a problem here, and of course with CSS a registered editor could change the separator. In browsers which support CSS3 background-size, the bullet's size can be specified in ems, which should resize with the text display (I haven't tested this).&nbsp;''—[[User:Mzajac |Michael]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mzajac |Z.]]&nbsp;<small>2008-10-10&nbsp;21:01&nbsp;z</small>''

== WP:DYK Mailing List Proposal ==

please see [[Wikipedia_talk:Did_you_know#A_Couple_of_Suggestions...]] for more info.

Thanks,

'''<font face="Gill Sans MT">[[User:Bluegoblin7|<font color="blue">B</font>]][[User talk:Bluegoblin7|<font color="blue">G</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Bluegoblin7|<font color="gray">7even</font>]]</font>''' 08:31, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

== Category required prior to creation of article. ==

[[:Category:Uncategorized pages]] is growing every day, and even with such excellent tools such as HotCat, it can be difficult to manage. I think categories are important on wikipedia for organisation and mantainance as well as article-hopping for the average reader. Is there perhaps any support for a system where a warning/marker pops up on any article being created without categories that, while not interfering with the editing windows, reminds the editor that they have not added any categories yet? It might just help cut down on the number of category-less articles out there. [[User:SGGH|SGGH]] <sup>[[User_talk:SGGH|speak!]]</sup> 13:19, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

:I have concerns with a system like that being non-user-friendly for naive editors. I'd rather let more experienced people add the categories. Is there a good tool written to ease the process of going through the list of uncategoried pages? Many of them seem to be biographies, which should be relatively easy to categorize. &mdash;&nbsp;Carl <small>([[User:CBM|CBM]]&nbsp;·&nbsp;[[User talk:CBM|talk]])</small> 14:16, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

:I agree with [[User:CBM|CBM]] that it's undesirable to deter new editors - if we do, Wikipedia will stagnate. Articles will need to re-categorized anyway, since their scope increases as they grow. We also need a better "add category" tool: no automatic entry in the text box of whatever happens to be highlighted in the dropdown/popup menu; multiple selection to avoid having to wait for the page to refresh after each category is added; and preferably more information about what each category is meant to contain; and ideally a true search facility, as new users will not necessarily think of the first word of the right category. -- [[User:Philcha|Philcha]] ([[User talk:Philcha|talk]]) 14:42, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

:Nuh-uh. Having a lot of information with some of it uncategorized is better than having less information but all categorized. This is way too [[WP:CREEP|creepy]] and probably only going to serve as a deterrent to contributions from newbie editors. Better that someone have to step in after the fact and tack on a category or two, than to have never had the article in the first place due to a lack of categorizing. [[User:Shereth|<b><font color="#0000FF">Sher</font></b>]]<b><font color="#6060BF">[[User_talk:Shereth|eth]]</font></b> 22:15, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

::Perhaps it might be a good idea to place an indicator on [[special:newpages]] that would show that a given page was uncategorized? I don't think that could be done easily with .js, so that would have to go to the devs (even then, I don't know that it would be easy). --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 06:22, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Would it be easier if there was a newpages patrolling bot tagging them with <nowiki>{{uncategorized}}</nowiki>? Not my favorite cleanup template when issued by a human being, given how trivial it is to at least find a relevant but imprecise top-level cat to start out with, but it might help some, if it isn't already happening. (I haven't seen it lately.) [[User:MrZaius|<font color="Blue">'''MrZaius'''</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:MrZaius|'''<font color="Blue">talk</font>''']]</sup> 08:36, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

::::So long as said bot didn't actually tag the pages as being patrolled, I think that might be helpful. I'm pretty sure there is a category WikiProject, so they could be notified? --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 13:41, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::That would be [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Categories]], though the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Categories/uncategorized|task force handling uncategorized articles]] is probably most relevant. -- <font style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </font> [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 23:29, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Nope''' Process creep. Categories help build the web. We would wish that new and IP editors would do that, but it is usually the province of regular editors. I think if we had a better category system for selection we would see fewer uncategorized pages (think of the upload screen on commons), but that would be a feature, not a restriction. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 05:05, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

* is there any reason why the initial state of a new page isnt "uncategorised" instead of just having that "+" in there? that might indicate more clearly to a newbie that there was something to be filled out. cheers [[User:Mission Fleg|Mission Fleg]] ([[User talk:Mission Fleg|talk]]) 04:51, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

* A newbie may not know the correct category and may put it in the wrong one if forced to. It'd actually be better leaving them on the workpile so someone who knows that area of work can categorise them appropriately. A gentle reminder so those who *do* know the categories can act accordingly wouldn't go astray, though. [[User talk:Orderinchaos|Orderinchaos]] 09:14, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

:*i'm not suggesting they be forced to i'm only suggesting that instead of having that '+' in there you have "uncategorised" in there exactly as if it had been tagged. thats effectively what happens now except a bot does it at some future point (might be seconds might be days) so why not have it start that way. [[User:Mission Fleg|Mission Fleg]] ([[User talk:Mission Fleg|talk]]) 09:49, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

::*If we think that new page creators ''are'' capable of finding one or more good categories, then I think that the best solution is to use a bot to post a note on their user talk pages, telling them that more people will find the article if they add one or more categories to it. (The same bot might check for a WikiProject template on the article talk page, and, if missing, suggest to the article creator that adding such would be useful.) A bot doesn't require new (developer) code, and is easily modified (perhaps several different messages could be tried, to see which one seems to work best). -- <font style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </font> [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 17:00, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

== Scale sizes on images as addition to resolution. ==

From Freenode/#wikipedia
<KordeX> hello, i have a suggestion for image handling: the scale automaticly to be calculated from size like 16:9 and so on. It would display on page-page just next to HeightxWidth
This is a very easy patch for the base. (Mikko Kortelainen)

== Improvement week(s) ==

Sorry, this random thought popped into my head the other day and I thought I'd entertain it. First question: is there any technical way to implement a wiki-wide freeze on article creation? If so, I just think it would be interesting and helpful if Wikipedia had "improvement weeks", where an article creation freeze was put into effect and instead directed people to improve bad articles or send them to AfD. After all, we're shooting for quality, right? <font color="#cc6600">[[User:David Fuchs|Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs]]</font><sup> <nowiki>(</nowiki><small><font color="#993300">[[User talk:David Fuchs|talk]]</font></small><nowiki>)</nowiki></sup> 13:14, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

:I think a lot of people creating articles would just do nothing, rather than move over to improving article, however the main benefit to your idea would be that it frees up the people doing new pages patrol for other tasks. I'm not sure that's worth the inevitable loss of contributors caused by restricting what they can do. --[[User:Tango|Tango]] ([[User talk:Tango|talk]]) 15:37, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

::It would also free up admins who delete more than a thousand pages per day, primarily after [[WP:CSD|CSD nominations]]. But I doubt that you'll get consensus on this (so whether it can be technically done is somewhat irrelevant), if only because some new articles are in response to breaking news. (As an aside, please note that [[wiki]] and [[Wikipedia]] are not synonyms.) -- <font style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </font> [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 23:26, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

:::It would be easily possible by adding "<code>.</code>" to the TitleBlacklist. However I'm certainly not going to be the admin who does that <tt>:D</tt> <font color="forestgreen">[[User:Happy-melon|'''Happy''']]</font>‑<font color="darkorange">[[User talk:Happy-melon|'''melon''']]</font> 15:31, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

::: ''Wikipedia'' and ''wiki'' are indeed different terms, Mr Broughton, but I'd like to note that ''Wikipedia'' and ''Wiki'' are probably synonymous. At least that's what I've learnt in Roger Ebert's blog, hehe. [[User:The Duke of Waltham|Waltham]], <small>[[User talk:The Duke of Waltham|''The Duke of'']]</small> 05:28, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

:Why do you want to drive new editors away? <font family="Arial">[[User:NurseryRhyme|<span style="color:dark blue">Little Red Riding Hood</span>]]''[[User talk:NurseryRhyme|<span style="color:dark blue">talk</span>]]''</font> 20:58, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

:This has been proposed in various forms in the past, up to and including locking down all but the most critical project-space pages. The usual rationale for rejection is that most people would just not contribute during the time, rather than feel forced to do something that they really don't want to do. Many would go and improve articles, but it isn't really worth the overall loss of productivity and the potential loss of new users. <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 02:35, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

:Bad idea. Sometimes improving an existing article involves creating a new supporting article, e.g. I created [[Crurotarsal]] to support [[Archosaur]] and [[Evolution of mammals]]. [[Suture (anatomical)]], which I also created to support [[Archosaur]], is now [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Suture_(anatomical) rather popular]. -- [[User:Philcha|Philcha]] ([[User talk:Philcha|talk]]) 08:58, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

== Wikipedia: Common Sense guideline ==

The idea for this proposal came to me while at [[Talk:Sandwich]]. An argument over there was about if a sandwich required leavened bread to be classified as such. This struck me as very odd, as I know that a sanwich is a bit of food between to bits of bread. Even a (wise) proposal by an un-involved user was ignored. This got me thinking about a new guideline: Wikipedia: Common Sense. Here's my (rough) draft:


'''Wikipedia:Common Sense'''

Sometimes users can cite policies so much down the slightest wording, that it causes uneeded argument.

E.G. This article states that "milk is milk". It does not cite a reliable source that states that milk is milk. -Mr.Verifiability

These arguments an become long, tedious, and, due to stuborness on both sides, are very diffcult to resolve. The solution is to use common sense.

E.G. Because it is a generally accepted fact that milk is indeed milk as evidenced by the name, among other thing, and there has been no known soures stating that milk is not milk, the article should state that milk is milk. -Mr.CommonSense

This does not mean that all, or even most facts can go uncited. It simply means that basic facts, supported by common sense, do not need to be cited.


There it is. [[User:Tutthoth-Ankhre|&#91;&#91;User:Tutthoth-Ankhre&#124;Tutthoth-Ankhre~ The Pharaoh of the Universe&#93;&#93;]] ([[User talk:Tutthoth-Ankhre|talk]]) 19:12, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


'''Support'''
# ''Support'' My propsal. [[User:Tutthoth-Ankhre|&#91;&#91;User:Tutthoth-Ankhre&#124;Tutthoth-Ankhre~ The Pharaoh of the Universe&#93;&#93;]] ([[User talk:Tutthoth-Ankhre|talk]]) 19:12, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

'''Oppose'''
# We shouldn't need a rule that tells people to use common sense, they should just ... use common sense. That being said, something like this is also open to abuse. One person's common sense is another person's fringe theory POV. <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 19:16, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
#Mr. Z man says it all. No need for something like this, and it '''will''' be misused. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 05:06, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
#I imagine that if an explicit "common sense" exception was added to [[WP:V]] we would probably observe some creep as to what counts as "common sense". It is much better to simply leave it unspoken that common sense always applies. For all means make it a user essay if you want though, it's not a bad point but I don't think we need another guideline that really brings nothing new to the table and would be heavily prone to abuse. - <font color="#708090">[[user:Icewedge#|Icewedge]]</font> (<font color="2F4F4F">[[user talk:icewedge|talk]]</font>) 07:03, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
#Common sense is culture-dependent. Obviously, not everyone has seen a sandwich in his life. -- [[User:TakuyaMurata|Taku]] ([[User talk:TakuyaMurata|talk]]) 02:17, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

'''Commenting'''

#One thing I've learned is that ''common sense'' is uncommon. Begging the question won't make silly people sensible. - [[User:Denimadept|Denimadept]] ([[User talk:Denimadept|talk]]) 19:30, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
#It would be nice to have some sort of common sense guideline. Like this one, [[Wikipedia:Common Sense]]. Better still, this one, [[WP:Ignore all rules]]. In general, people do use common sense whilst editing here, and for those who don't, telling them to do so probably isn't going to help. Really the best thing to do in a situation where people are being pedantic about the rules, is to point them to IAR and hope that they get it--[[User:Jac16888|Jac16888]] ([[User talk:Jac16888|talk]]) 20:06, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
#As Jac16888 has pointed out, we already have a number of pages that discuss common sense. You'll find more at the [[WP:EIW#Common|"common sense" topic in the editor's index]]. -- <font style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </font> [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 23:22, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
#While I like the idea, I suspect this guideline would take the prize for the most universally ignored guideline on wikipedia (and that's saying something...). --[[User_talk:Ludwigs2|<span style="color:darkblue;font-weight:bold">Ludwigs</span><span style="color:green;font-weight:bold">2</span>]] 02:24, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:Tip of the day/August 31, 2006]] is the same as [[Wikipedia:Tip of the day/August 31]] ==

Why do we have duplicate pages here? [[User:GO-PCHS-NJROTC|<font color="red" face="Comic Sans MS">GO-PCHS-NJROTC</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:GO-PCHS-NJROTC|<font color="black" face="Comic Sans MS">(Messages)</font>]]</sup> 01:51, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

:The "tip of the day" is a rotational list of 365 tips, so you may well see the same tip on August 31, 2009. I'm not sure why there is a 2006 page and also a 2007 page - [[Wikipedia:Tip of the day/August 31, 2006]], but not a [[Wikipedia:Tip of the day/August 31, 2008]] page, but it's really irrelevant - Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia, and it actually takes more server resources (not to mention human time) to delete a page than to simply let it exist (ignore it). But if you really, really want to know, and the matter isn't explained at the page [[Wikipedia:Tip of the day]], then ask as [[Wikipedia talk:Tip of the day]]. -- <font style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </font> [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 13:48, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

== Rollback option ==

*[[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Rollback_option]]
:(I meant to post it here, but I didn't check berforehand what [[WP:VPP]] redirects to : )
So, see the discussion there. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 02:47, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

== Random Article Within a Category ==

I've always loved the idea of the random article button, but it never takes me anywhere interesting. So, I thought it would be awesome if readers would be able to get to a random article within a specific category with similar ease and convenience to just clicking the random article link. If that were to be implemented it would definitely be a feature I would use quite a bit. I'm surprised that no one seems to have proposed it before (or have they?). [[User:Abyssal|Abyssal]] ([[User talk:Abyssal|talk]]) 17:02, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

:For sure it is a good idea, I think software features are meant to be requested on bugzilla and there is already a bug filed for this proposal: [https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15824 Bug 15834].--[[User:Commander Keane|Commander Keane]] ([[User talk:Commander Keane|talk]]) 09:19, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

== Contributing to wikipedia without keeping to formal prerequisites ==

Being able to enter new pieces of information or corrections into the respective articles' editors and submit them to an area within wikipedia where wiki editors wikify what has been sent (instead of altering the article instantly) might attract those people to the wiki idea who are willing to share their knowledge, but do not want to deal with wikipedia's formal prerequisites.--[[User:Emaster82|Emaster82]] ([[User talk:Emaster82|talk]]) 22:42, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
:I second this and pose a related suggestion; I also think there should be some way for casual readers to be able to submit questions or requests for information that they wanted to find in the article, but couldn't. This could give editors ideas on what articles need and could give us some direction in cases where we thought an article was comprehensive but notwas actually not meeting the needs of our users. [[User:Abyssal|Abyssal]] ([[User talk:Abyssal|talk]]) 00:35, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

::I would encourage editors who are looking for information &ndash; especially information that ought to be in our articles but isn't &ndash; to visit Wikipedia's [[WP:RD|Reference Desks]]. Not only are the volunteers there generally very enthusiastic about returning rapid answers to questions, but many of us also try to fill in gaps we find based on questions we received. (Explicitly noting that an article is missing info is always helpful, too.) There was a formal project to encourage this effort ([[Wikipedia:WikiProject Reference Desk Article Collaboration]]), but I get the impression that most editors just go ahead and do it without any formal framework.
::Notes or questions regarding missing information might also be placed on article talk pages, but very few articles have closely-watched talk pages.
::Most article prose contains relatively little markup, and one doesn't need to know ''anything'' about markup to make small corrections or additions. (An unwikified paragraph or two here and there is no great crisis, and someone will be along eventually to straighten it out.) Neophytes should be encouraged to post requests for assitance to the [[WP:HD|Help Desk]]; editors there are glad to offer advice, and are also willing to step in to fix any formatting problems.
::New articles are often created in a somewhat, or completely, unwikified state. If the prose is serviceable, someone doing new page patrol usually fixes up the new article (formatting, wikilinking, categories, stub notices) inside of an hour or two. I don't think we need a formal process for dealing with unwikified new articles, as we already seem to be coping well. [[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 02:04, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

:::I'm very pleased with the answer above and now too think that creating an extra area for wikifiying purposes is unnecessary.--[[User:Emaster82|Emaster82]] ([[User talk:Emaster82|talk]]) 17:42, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

:How about just putting the note on the article talkpage? [[User:Kylu|Kylu]] ([[User talk:Kylu|talk]]) 04:29, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

:: There are also templates [[Template:Expand]] and [[Template:Expand-section]] for this task. --[[User:Martynas Patasius|Martynas Patasius]] ([[User talk:Martynas Patasius|talk]]) 19:19, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
::: I don't think non-members and passerbys know how to use Wikipedia's template system. [[User:Abyssal|Abyssal]] ([[User talk:Abyssal|talk]]) 22:13, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

== Moving infoboxes from articles to the Template: namespace ==

Currently, when a new or experienced user hits "edit this page" on a page like [[Microsoft]], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Microsoft&oldid=242589903&action=edit this] is what they see. It's a mess. It's confusing. And it's horribly incomprehensible for a lot of users.

I'm proposing that we move infoboxes to subpages of their respective templates ''and'' incorporate "view - talk - edit" links into the boxes themselves at the bottom. So, for example, Microsoft's infobox would be located at [[Template:Infobox Company/Microsoft]] and [[Template:Infobox Company]] would be modified to have "view - talk - edit" links at the bottom of it.

Over a year ago, I converted some of the chemical element infoboxes to a subpage-type format and editing of the articles is now much more user-friendly. Compare: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hydrogen&action=edit&oldid=153829010 previously] to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hydrogen&oldid=242353167&action=edit now].

Thoughts, suggestions, comments, concerns? --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 04:09, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

:Wish I could think up something that clever. o.o [[User:Kylu|Kylu]] ([[User talk:Kylu|talk]]) 04:14, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

::Offhand, it makes more sense to me for infobox templates filled-out with article-specific details to be article subpages instead of being template subpages. -- [[User:Wtmitchell|Boracay Bill]] ([[User talk:Wtmitchell|talk]]) 04:17, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

:::That'd be fine, except there are no subpages in article-space. A page like [[OS/2]] is indexed in special:random (making it an article), whereas [[User:OS/2]] would be one of [[User:OS]]'s subpages. [[User:Kylu|Kylu]] ([[User talk:Kylu|talk]]) 04:28, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

:While I think a complete redesign of how templates like infoboxes work would be ideal, that's a long, long way off. This would be good in the meantime. <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 18:19, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

This would make it more complicated for the people that know what they're doing, and not only in obvious ways. Someone fixing links to disambiguation pages might have to click through to the infobox. Someone updating a headquarters city will need to make two edits, one to the article and another to the infobox template. If the infobox name is based on the article name, it will have to be moved if the article is moved. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 18:34, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Why don't we just put overly complex infoboxes in subpages ([[Microsoft/Infobox]] in this case)? By definition, an infobox about a single company isn't a template anymore; it's encyclopedic content. If someone happens across one with [[Special:Random]], big deal; we can just put a noinclude tag around the explanation that it is used on [[Microsoft]]. If someone is confused by that, I'd be surprised if they have the mental capacity for editing anyway. :) [[User:EVula|EVula]] <span style="color: #999;">// [[User talk:EVula|talk]] // [[User:EVula/admin|<span style="color: #366;">&#9775;</span>]] //</span> 21:10, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

:That wouldn't work since article space doesn't have subpages. -- [[User:Imperator3733|Imperator3733]] ([[User talk:Imperator3733|talk]]) 21:52, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

---

:''I'm proposing that we move infoboxes to subpages'' -- [[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]]
:''it makes more sense to me for infobox templates [...] to be article subpages'' -- [[User:Wtmitchell|Boracay Bill]]
:''Why don't we just put overly complex infoboxes in subpages ([[Microsoft/Infobox]] in this case)?'' -- [[User:EVula|EVula]]

Great suggestion! Anything that reduces line noise and preserves the [[wikitext]] spirit of being quick and easy to edit gets my vote.

:''That wouldn't work since article space doesn't have subpages''

It does work (see [[Microsoft/Infobox|here]] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Microsoft&action=edit&section=0 here]). OK, it's not technically a subpage i.e. there's no backlink to [[Microsoft]], but it's otherwise the same. The only caveat is that the infobox must be transcluded as <nowiki>{{:Microsoft/Infobox}}</nowiki> rather than <nowiki>{{Microsoft/Infobox}}</nowiki>.

[[User:Chocolateboy|chocolateboy]] ([[User talk:Chocolateboy|talk]]) 10:44, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:And it will also show up as an article on places like [[Special:Random]], and will be counted as an article for the article count on the main page. <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 12:48, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::And it's another page for vandals to attack and users to have to watchlist. <font color="#cc6600">[[User:David Fuchs|Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs]]</font><sup> <nowiki>(</nowiki><small><font color="#993300">[[User talk:David Fuchs|talk]]</font></small><nowiki>)</nowiki></sup> 12:54, 7 October 2008 (UTC).
:::Separate pages also make it difficult to maintain named references (very commonly used when details in an infobox are duplicated in the box). I think the better solution is to standardize the way the infoboxes are presented in article bodies, using the "lined up on equals sign" approach so that it's clear its a special function. --[[User:Masem|M<font size="-3">ASEM</font>]] 13:17, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

All good points. Still, I'd suggest keeping it that way for a while. More people are likely to spot the change in the [[Microsoft]] article than are monitoring this discussion, and they can weigh in here. It's easy enough to CSD the subpage if that's the consensus.

:''I think the better solution is to standardize the way the infoboxes are presented in article bodies, using the "lined up on equals sign" approach''

Yeah. I've tried to do that ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Buddy_Rich&action=edit&section=6 here] for instance). It works well for uncluttered templates like that, but the Microsoft infobox is full of references and nested templates, which end up line-wrapping, so the unreadability is hard to avoid.

[[User:Chocolateboy|chocolateboy]] ([[User talk:Chocolateboy|talk]]) 13:31, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

== Namespace aliases ==

We use a variety of shortcuts to important pages on-wiki, to save ourselves typing a few characters; these invariably involve shortening the namespace prefix to an acronym. We call common namespace abbreviations 'pseudospaces' because they refer to namespaces that don't actually exist: the pages are created in the mainspace and their corresponding talk pages are "Talk:ABBR:Foo" rather than "ABBR Talk:Foo". A while ago the developers, having written the necessary underlying code, made the "WP:" prefix an actual alias of the "Wikipedia:" namespace, and similarly for "WT:" and "Wikipedia talk:". So typing "WT:FOO", you would immediately be directed to "Wikipedia:Foo", and it was impossible to create a mainspace page at "WT:FOO" in the same way that it is not (AFAIK) possible to create a ''mainspace'' page at "Help:Foo". A maintenance script was used to move all the shortcut pages starting with "WP:" and "WT:" to new locations in the Wikipedia: and Wikipedia talk: namespaces. The update was fairly painful because there were a lot of name conflicts between pages named "WP:Foo" and "Wikipedia:Foo", and a number of templates beginning with "Template:WP:...". I have been investigating the corresponding situation with other popular shortcuts such as "T:", "P:" and "CAT:", with mixed results.

From [[Special:Prefixindex/T:]] we can see the 30 or so extant "T:..." shortcuts: I have confirmed that there are relatively few potential name conflicts, and no template conflicts. In every case where there ''is'' a name conflict, the two pages are either the template target and its shortcut redirect, or two redirects to another template; the conflicts could be trivially resolved by deleting the redirect or by merging the histories of the two redirects, respectively. It would therefore be possible to implement "T:" as a namespace alias for "Template:" relatively painlessly. This would of course prevent these shortcuts from multiplying while at the same time allowing every short template name to be used as a potential shortcut. There is a small issue with the "T:..." alias: the valid article [[t:kort]]. I'm not sure what could be done with this, perhaps there is some unicode replacement for the colon (or the t for that matter!) that we could use for the main article? A redirect from [[Template:Kort]] (which would be the result of typing "t:kort" into the search bar) would have to be condoned but that's no big deal - we already have such redirects from [[Help: A Day in the Life]] to [[Help!: A Day in the Life]], for instance). It would be nice to be able to define "TT:..." as an alias for the Template talk: namespace, but this is unfortunately the interwiki prefix for the tatar wikipedia!

The situation with the "P:..." alias is similar. There are some three hundred "P:..." pages, the majority of which have no equivalent page "Portal:...". The very few that do (see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Happy-melon/sandbox6&oldid=243206447 list]) are without exception redirects or targets, as with the T: alias. Once again there is a minor problem in the article [[P:ano]]. There are no pages of the form "PT:...", but this is the interwiki prefix for the Portugese wikipedia so it is not possible for us to use it as an alias.

The situation with the "CAT:..." shortcut is more difficult: there are a [[Special:Prefixindex/CAT:|large number]] of them, this time redirects without exception, but I don't think that defining "CAT:..." as a namespace alias for "Category:..." would be very helpful, as it would mean that the normal rules of category links would apply: writing <tT><nowiki>[[CAT:CSD]]</nowiki></tt>, for instance, would result in the page being added to [[CAT:CSD]] rather than being linked to it. If there is an option to specify that "CAT:" is equivalent to "''':'''Category:" then this would be useful, otherwise these redirects will probably have to remain. There are no pages with the prefix "CATT:" so this could be easily enabled as an alias for the "Category talk:" namespace.

There are only a [[Special:Prefixindex/H:|handful]] of pages with the "H:" prefix, all redirects to Help: space; none of their alias pages exist. However there are a number of templates prefixed with "H:", associated with the bot-imported help pages from metawiki. This help system itself appears to be in disuse and needs to be rethought, so this may not be an insurmountable obstacle. "HT:" is the interwiki prefix for the Creole wikipedia.

There are no valid shortcuts with the prefix "I:" to images, and three valid articles; such an alias would also suffer from the same problems as the "CAT:" alias above. "IT:" is the interwiki prefix for the italian wikipedia. There are no shortcuts or articles at "U:", just a handful of implausible redirects, or "UT:" - "UT" is also not an interwiki prefix so could be used as an alias for the "User talk:" namespace.

In summary, the following namespace aliases could be easily created with minimal effort, with the associated benefits.
*HT: &rarr; Help talk:
*U: &rarr; User:
*UT: &rarr; User talk:
*CATT: &rarr; Category talk:
In addition, the following aliases could be created if a few issues were resolved:
*P: &rarr; Portal: &ndash; [[p:ano]]
*T: &rarr; Template: &ndash; [[t:kort]]
*CAT: &rarr; Category: &ndash; if automatic category linking could be disabled
*I: &rarr; Image: &ndash; if automatic image inlining could be disabled

I guess this is more of a status update and food-for-thought exercise than a concrete proposal at this time, but there is clearly some mileage in this and the potential to remove a lot of 'backstage' housekeeping links from the 'reader-facing' mainspace. It would also probably be a good idea to discover or plead for a solution to the problem of needing to create an article that begins with a valid wiki (or interwiki) prefix; we already [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Namespace&hideredirs=1&hidelinks=1 have a few of these], and sooner or later someone ''is'' going to write a book entitled "Wikipedia:The free encyclopedia" or "Portal:A great SciFi novel"; our handling of these is currently quite inconsistent, a coherent approach (preferably by escaping the colon in some fashion) would be desirable. Comments? <font color="forestgreen">[[User:Happy-melon|'''Happy''']]</font>‑<font color="darkorange">[[User talk:Happy-melon|'''melon''']]</font> 17:33, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
:I think most or all of these would be unnecessary. "User" and "Help" are short enough that its not really worth saving 3 characters for a link that's more confusing. And how often do we need to link to most of the talk namespaces like category talk or portal talk where creating shortcut links would be justified? Other than WP/WT, I think the only namespace that's ever shortcut-ized is CAT and, rarely, H. <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 21:14, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

:Solution in search of a problem, in my opinion. It's not really an issue. [[User:EVula|EVula]] <span style="color: #999;">// [[User talk:EVula|talk]] // [[User:EVula/admin|<span style="color: #366;">&#9775;</span>]] //</span> 02:53, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I support the proposal, or at least the general idea behind it. If it saves typing and isn't a big deal to implement, then there's benefits, but no drawbacks, which means there is no good reason ''not'' to implement it. Criticisms so far aimed at the idea sound suspiciously like arguing "I'm not interested in it" to have a page deleted. [[User:Abyssal|Abyssal]] ([[User talk:Abyssal|talk]]) 11:08, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

:It saves a tiny bit of typing at the expense of [[WP:OMG|cryptic links]] and pointless shortcuts. We shouldn't be encouraging users to clutter up userspace with shortcuts to their own userspace and we shouldn't be using confusing links like [[H:IOUF]] when trying to explain to new users how to upload files. <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 16:46, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

:: I've always been wondering why there isn't a ''CAT'' shortcut for the category namespace, and have wanted to see one; I hadn't taken into consideration the complication of the dual nature of these links. Having corrected a number of faulty links to categories (including one in an archive), which actually categorised the page they were in instead, I can see a good use for a ''CAT:'' alternative to '':Category:''. People often forget that crucial initial colon. (On the other hand, might such an alternative cause more confusion?)
:: As far as other namespaces are concerned, I've never seen a reason to shorten words like ''User'' and ''Help'', in which case the balance does seem to tilt towards over-abbreviation. The template namespace is easily accessed through {{tl|tl}} (although there would be merit in a shortcut, mainly for template talk pages). [[User:The Duke of Waltham|Waltham]], <small>[[User talk:The Duke of Waltham|''The Duke of'']]</small> 01:27, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

== Attack of the Killer B's ==

[[Image:Killer B.jpg|left|thumb|200px|Meet Killer, your friendly local booster for B-class article improvements.]]
Ever feel frustrated by the thought that it's really hard to get [[T:DYK|Did you know]] credit for expanding anything bigger than a substub, and it's a big gap from there to [[WP:GA|good article]]? Okay, let's fill that gap. Proposing the '''Killer B's''' to thank people for raising the dreadful up to pretty good.

Killer B recognition goes to improvement drives for existing articles that start out at C-class or below, with a few requirements:
# The article comes to full-fledged B-class work: useful overview of the subject, pretty well written, pretty well referenced, no uncited controversial stuff, no tags for serious shortcomings.
# Double its word count (not counting lists).
# Get it to at least 1000 words.
# Bring it to a total of 10 or more reliable sources with inline citations.
# Add at least 5 new reliable sources yourself (it may already have some sources before you start).
# Do all the improvements within 1 week.

There wouldn't be any special designation for Killer B at the article, but we could keep a 'Beehive' to thank editors for their contributions and offer cute doodads for userspace. The basic setup would operate similar to GAC: anyone can review and the process works on an honor system.
<font face="Verdana">[[User:Durova|<span style="color:#009">Durova</span>]]</font><sup>''[[User talk:Durova|Charge!]]''</sup> 20:28, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

{{Vote-Support}}
I agree, but I'd be more inclined to simpily have an award, like a barnstar, awarded by common editors for such a thing --[[User:Ipatrol|Ipatrol]] ([[User talk:Ipatrol|talk]]) 00:40, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:Yes, Killer Bs would be awards similar to barnstars awarded by common editors. <font face="Verdana">[[User:Durova|<span style="color:#009">Durova</span>]]</font><sup>''[[User talk:Durova|Charge!]]''</sup> 00:55, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I see, but what I was trying to say is that I don't agree with the "beehive" part of your proposal. Also you might run into issues with [[WP:OWN]], in otherwords, who of the editors on such a page would get that award? --[[User:Ipatrol|Ipatrol]] ([[User talk:Ipatrol|talk]]) 01:00, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:Generally one or a small team of people who raised an existing article up to B class within those parameters over the course of a week. What objection do you see with [[WP:OWN]] that doesn't exist for a similar program such as DYK or GA? <font face="Verdana">[[User:Durova|<span style="color:#009">Durova</span>]]</font><sup>''[[User talk:Durova|Charge!]]''</sup> 02:13, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
I like the general idea, but I really dislike the actual characterisation of it - I mean come on, a bee called 'killer'? We're not in primary (elementary) school... get rid of the whole 'bee' thing, make it more like the existing barnstar system (i.e. a bit more mature, without a character), and I'll be more happy to fully support. [[User talk:Islander|<sub><font color="DarkGray">'''Talk'''</font></sub>]][[User:Islander|<font color="Blue">'''Islander'''</font>]] 14:01, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:Well, I'll see what else I can do. It helps to give these things some kind of personality--gets people to remember them. Suppose I found a still from an old 1950s B-movie horror flick? <font face="Verdana">[[User:Durova|<span style="color:#009">Durova</span>]]</font><sup>''[[User talk:Durova|Charge!]]''</sup> 20:04, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::No, see, that's the problem. I won't support it with ''any'' personality - like I said, we're not in primary school, we don't need a mascot-type-device, seriously we don't. Barnstars work, they're not a 'who, they're a 'what'. Make this a 'what' as well, and ditch any personality or character. [[User talk:Islander|<sub><font color="DarkGray">'''Talk'''</font></sub>]][[User:Islander|<font color="Blue">'''Islander'''</font>]] 21:47, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Agreed. The red-white termite doesn't look appetizing, does it? [[User:NVO|NVO]] ([[User talk:NVO|talk]]) 14:52, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::::That's 'cause you're not supposed to want to eat it. And I support the proposal. :D [[User:Abyssal|Abyssal]] ([[User talk:Abyssal|talk]]) 22:10, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

== Wikipedia Index Proposal ==

I would like to suggest, a form of invisible universal category that all articles would belong to. It would be called the Index. it would be viewable to all people, just like an index an the back of a paper encyclopedia. It would look like category pages currently do. Until developers can get in on this, bots would attach all articles they find to an "index" category. The index would have an abridged versiom of articles with only at least a certain number of monthly visitations, an an unabridged version with all articles. You may comment, discuss, or vote under the following categories. --[[User:Ipatrol|Ipatrol]] ([[User talk:Ipatrol|talk]]) 00:57, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:[[Special:AllPages]]--[[User:Jac16888|Jac16888]] ([[User talk:Jac16888|talk]]) 01:01, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

::It looks like you're describing [[Special:Allpages]]. --[[User:Carnildo|Carnildo]] ([[User talk:Carnildo|talk]]) 20:19, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

== Public feedback ==

Just throwing this out there; I'd love to see it implemented as other projects already have but it would need wide community acceptance. Please see the bottom of any [http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Main_Page Wikinews] article or the sidebar of [http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Main_Page Wiktionary]. These projects have implemented a feature where anonymous readers can submit feedback about articles so the project knows how it can improve. I know that it will be a good way to better learn the public's perception of Wikipedia. Many people will read something wrong, a vandalized article, or something that needs improvement, but they don't know how to fix it or that they can even edit it. They then just write Wikipedia off as worthless. A public feedback system will let us know exactly what articles need to be improved the most as well as in what way. Very few of our millions of readers ever make an edit, so we really don't know exactly what they want. This is obviously a major change that wld require wide community acceptance, but I urge you to consider this beneficial plan and perhaps implement a short testing period before making anything official. Thanks, <font color="#1EC112" size="3px">[[User:Reywas92|Reywas92]]</font><sup><font color="#45E03A">[[User talk:Reywas92|'''Talk''']]</font></sup> 02:45, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:I used to think this would be a good idea, but then take a look at all the parallels in other sites. Many news sites that used to allow comment posting have removed this feature, and I'm not even going to touch [http://www.xkcd.com/481/ YouTube comments]. Then look at Wikinews, how is [[n:Comments:Worldwide markets fall precipitously|this]] helpful? <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 17:48, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

::Feedback would have to be via a controlled questionnaire from with little or no scope for text input. This would make things easier for readers providing genuine feedback, easier for editors analysing the results and harder for flamers, etc. Ideally such a questionnaire should be designed with some reader involvement to ensure the right questions are asked and answer options provided - probably different reader groups per article category, as e.g. readers of scientific and pop culture articles will have different expectations. This sounds difficult, so internal brainstorming might be the only option. -- [[User:Philcha|Philcha]] ([[User talk:Philcha|talk]]) 18:22, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::Also keep only 1 response per article per user id / IP address.

:::Only one response per IP address? You mean the entire nation of [[Qatar]] is only permitted two opinions on a given article? --[[User:Carnildo|Carnildo]] ([[User talk:Carnildo|talk]]) 22:25, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

::::Something like this was implemented on Wikia actually: [[wikia:central:Special:ProblemReports]]. I honestly think it doesn't work very well on Wikia, as only administrators of the local wiki or Wikia staff can change the status of the report, but perhaps they would be kind enough to release the extension by GFDL (I don't know if it is or not), and then it could be implemented here for autoconfirmed+. As for your concern Philcha, there is actually more textual input than a questionnaire in that format, but I'm sure the tweaks would be possible if it was felt that textual fixes were ambiguous.<br />That all said... this doesn't go with the [[WP:Be bold|Wikipedia mantra]]. People should fix it themselves if they see an issue, or bring it up on the talk page. i.e., I don't think it should be implemented here. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 01:26, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

== Symbol Key ==

I've been having a bunch of issues trying to figure out what all the symbols mean, though I'm starting to figure out what some of them are, like the bronze star. But there are just so many symbols (or at least to me) that I don't really get them all (e.g. one day I was looking at a page and next to German/Deutsch, I think, there was a gold star, and so I didn't know what it was and it annoyed me, tough I eventually figured out it was the equivalent to the bronze star). I think that would be very helpful. Like what does the green circle with a plus sign in it mean? That would also be helpful to new users. Thanks! [[User:Helixer|<span style="font-family:Centaur; color:black">'''''Helixer'''''</span>]] ([[User talk:Helixer|''talk'']]) 22:10, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:A gold star on an article means that it is a [[WP:Featured Article]], the green symbol stands for [[WP:Good Article]], the only bronze star i can think of is a [[WP:Barnstar]]. Any others?--[[User:Jac16888|Jac16888]] ([[User talk:Jac16888|talk]]) 22:33, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:As you say, [[Wikipedia:Featured articles]] describes it as a bronze star. The [[mouseover]] for the star on a featured article says "Featured article", and clicking it leads to [[Wikipedia:Featured articles]] where the star is described, so I don't think any more explanation is needed. The gold star on interlanguage links to featured articles is made by {{tl|Link FA}}. The mouseover for the corresponding language link is "This is a featured article in another language." (See for example [[United States]]). Does your browser not display mouseovers? The symbol for [[Wikipedia:Good articles]] is a green circle with a plus. Again, both mouseover and clicking it should usually explain it. If it's on a user page then it means the user has contributed to a good article. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 23:08, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::Sorry my bad, never even noticed that FA star was bronze, thought it was just a dark gold colour--[[User:Jac16888|Jac16888]] ([[User talk:Jac16888|talk]]) 02:25, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:I would hope that the good article symbol isn't in any articles. There's been several large discussions about this, all resulting in either no consensus or a consensus to not put the GA icons in articles. <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 16:15, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

== Deletion reason ==

Hi all - when you go to delete a page via ''http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=(pagename)&action=delete'' you are presented with a handy-dandy list of reasons for deletion that you can pick and choose from. At present, that list is simply all the Speedy Deletion criteria, plus the catch-all "other reason". I'd like to see a further reason added to that list - "Per consensus at deletion process page". Consensus at AFD, CFD, and the like is surely one of the most common reasons for deleting a page, and would be a useful extra item to have on that list. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 23:53, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:[[MediaWiki:Deletereason-dropdown]] has the various reasons. '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 15:14, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::Other reason: (provide link to the xFD). –<font face="Verdana">[[User:Xenocidic|<font color="black">'''xeno'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Xenocidic|<font color="black">talk</font>]])</font> 15:21, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Per Xeno, but a bit more explicitly&mdash;if a page is being deleted pursuant to consensus in a discussion, the deletion log entry should include a link to the closed discussion. Just saying ''per consensus at deletion process page'' isn't nearly as helpful, and can be confusing for someone following up if a page has been deleted more than once (was the 'deletion process page' AfD? DRV? A second or third AfD? etc.). [[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 16:03, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::::If you try to delete a page with PROD or AFD, the default reason you get is either the deletion rationale for the PROD or a link to the AFD. Hence such an option would be redundant. '''''<font color="#FF0000">[[User:Hut 8.5|Hut 8.5]]</font>''''' 06:47, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

The reason it's not there may be because such deletions should always include a link to the deletion discussion. That would not be possible if it was a dropdown option. If something is deleted at xfd, you should put something like "<nowiki>per [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Main Page]]</nowiki>" as the deletion reason. --- [[User:RockMFR|RockMFR]] 17:40, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

:Such a link always exists in the "what links here" links - which is why its so often ''not'' specifically included in the deletion log reasons. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 00:34, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::It should always be included in the summary, as most readers are probably not aware of the what links here feature. --- [[User:RockMFR|RockMFR]] 01:59, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

::The 'what links here' may include a lot of other pages &ndash; links from user space, multiple deletion discussions, AN postings, ''other'' deletion discussions, etc. &ndash; and it may not be immediately obvious in what order the linking deletion discussions took place. (Was it AfD1, AfD2, DRV? Was it AfD1, DRV, AfD2? Was it AfD1, DRV1, AFD2, AfD3, DRV2, AfD3, DRV3?) Links from the deletion log will always be in clear chronological order, and should always be deletion-specific. [[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 05:39, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I've been bold and added it. Feel free to remove it if it causes problems. &mdash; [[User:Werdna|<span style="font-weight: bold; color: #404080">Werdna</span>]]&nbsp;&bull;&nbsp;[[User talk:Werdna|<span style="color: #8080b0">talk</span>]] 00:31, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

==Forcing or reminding users to sign their comments==
I don't know how big a problem it is in the main wikipedia, but users quite often forget to sign their comments on talk pages of the smaller wiki I use to contribute to. How about automated signing of comments so that it cannot be forgotten or refused (if technically possible, of course)?

Alternatively, I suggest creating a box in the "Editing" column on the "My preferences" special page so that, if the box is checked, users would be reminded to sign their comments if they haven't done that yet when trying to save the talk page they have been working on. The "Prompt me when entering a blank edit summary" function works similarly.--[[User:Emaster82|Emaster82]] ([[User talk:Emaster82|talk]]) 03:07, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

:While not a part of the Mediawiki software itself, [[User:SineBot|SineBot]] automatically adds signatures to most talk pages if a user forgets. [[User:Slakr]] is responsible for the care and feeding of SineBot, and might be able to give you some tips on how to implement something similar on your own wiki. [[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 05:31, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

::Another device I didn't know of. Anyway, I might indeed contact the bot's nurse for help.--[[User:Emaster82|Emaster82]] ([[User talk:Emaster82|talk]]) 14:08, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

:The problem with a system-level solution is that, sometimes, users need to edit a talk page ''without'' signing. For example, I don't need to sign if I'm placing {{tl|WPBiography}} on a talk page, or if I'm correcting someone's botched link. MediaWiki can't tell the difference between an unsigned comment and a non-discussion content edit. [[User:EVula|EVula]] <span style="color: #999;">// [[User talk:EVula|talk]] // [[User:EVula/admin|<span style="color: #366;">&#9775;</span>]] //</span> 23:08, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

== can't we just search without specifying the language on www.wikipedia.com ==

on the main page of www.wikipedia.com, when we type in a keyword to search, we need to type in the language too... can't we just search without specifying a language?

for example, if we search for 李克勤 on google, we don't really need to specify the language, because it is taken as UTF-8 and there is a perfect 1 to 1 match of those characters in UTF-8. There is no ambiguity...

is it because the content portion of wikipedia is so big that we want to limit the range of search? won't building a good index solve that problem? or otherwise, can we just search for all the "titles" of the whole wiki database if the user choose not to specify a language in the main box, and then down below, there is a more extensive search box where users can enter the keyword and then specify the lanugage as well? thanks.
:You can search all language wikipedias at once with [http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%E6%9D%8E%E5%85%8B%E5%8B%A4+site%3Awikipedia.org Google]. [[User talk:Algebraist|Algebraist]] 08:39, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Automatic language selection on the home page based on computer's local settings is very annoying. My computer has foreign settings, but in 99.9% of my searches I need to browse the articles in English. It is annoying to have to select English every time I open wikipedia.org. I don't want to be switched automatically into the other language.

:You can't really search in www.wikipedia.com, since that's just a redirect to the actual address, www.wikipedia.org. [[User:Dtobias|*Dan T.*]] ([[User talk:Dtobias|talk]]) 20:39, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:If you want English specifically, then what are you doing at www.wikipedia.com or www.wikipedia.org in the first place? Go to en.wikipedia.org. [[User talk:Algebraist|Algebraist]] 23:12, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

::Or just change your browser's preferred language to English. Firefox at least lets you have one language for the user interface and another for web content if you'd like. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 23:15, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Revision as of 00:30, 13 October 2008

2006 Pacific typhoon season
Season summary map
Seasonal boundaries
First system formedMay 9, 2006
Last system dissipatedDecember 19, 2006
Strongest storm
NameYagi
 • Maximum winds195 km/h (120 mph)
(10-minute sustained)
 • Lowest pressure910 hPa (mbar)
Seasonal statistics
Total depressions30
Total storms23 official plus 2 unofficial
Typhoons15
Super typhoons6 (unofficial)
Total fatalitiesAt least 2,532
Total damage$12 billion (2006 USD)
Pacific typhoon seasons
2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
Wikinews has news related to:

The 2006 Pacific typhoon season had no official bounds; it ran year-round in 2006, but most tropical cyclones tend to form in the northwestern Pacific Ocean between May and November.[1] These dates conventionally delimit the period of each year when most tropical cyclones form in the northwestern Pacific Ocean.

The scope of this article is limited to the Pacific Ocean, north of the equator and west of the international date line. Storms that form east of the date line and north of the equator are called hurricanes; see 2006 Pacific hurricane season. Tropical Storms formed in the entire West Pacific basin are assigned a name by the Japan Meteorological Agency. Tropical depressions in this basin have the "W" suffix added to their number. In addition, the Philippine Atmospheric, Geophysical and Astronomical Services Administration (PAGASA) assigns names to tropical cyclones (including tropical depressions) that enter or form in the Philippine area of responsibility. These names, however, are not in common use outside of the Philippines.

Storms

See also: Timeline of the 2006 Pacific typhoon season

In storm information below, windspeed advisories differ from the Joint Typhoon Warning Center to the Japan Meteorological Agency as the JTWC uses the U.S. criteria of 1-minute mean to designate maximum sustained winds, while the JMA uses the 10-minute mean wind criteria to designate tropical cyclone maximum sustained winds. This difference generally means that JTWC maximum winds will appear to be higher than the maximum winds described by the JMA for the same cyclone.

Typhoon Chanchu (Caloy)

Very strong typhoon (JMA)
Category 4 typhoon (SSHWS)
 
DurationMay 9 – May 19
Peak intensity175 km/h (110 mph) (10-min);
930 hPa (mbar)
Main article: Typhoon Chanchu

An area of disturbed weather formed around May 5 and moved westward. The Joint Typhoon Warning Center released a Tropical Cyclone Formation Alert on May 8, shortly before it upgraded the storm to a Tropical Depression. It became a tropical storm on May 9. The name "Chanchu" was submitted by Macau and means pearl. The JTWC then upgraded it to a typhoon on May 10. The storm maintained a westerly track and made two landfalls in the Philippines, causing 32 deaths in the country[2] and $1.9 million in damage, much of it to agriculture.[3]

After Chanchu left the Philippines, the JMA upgraded it to a typhoon. Chanchu turned to the north in the South China Sea and affected hundreds of Vietnamese fishermen. Then, it became a super typhoon, only the second ever recorded in the South China Sea, but was one for only less than a day. The only other super typhoon to form in the South China Sea in recorded history is Ryan in 1995.[4] Chanchu is also the most intense typhoon on Hong Kong Observatory's record to enter the South China Sea in May. Chanchu necessitated the Strong Wind Signal no. 3 in both Hong Kong and Macau.[5][6] It turned northeastward and made a final landfall along the southeastern seaboard of China on May 18 resulting in at least 25 deaths and a direct economic loss of 7 billion yuan. Chanchu became extratropical later that day.

Tropical Storm Jelawat (Domeng)

Tropical storm (JMA)
Tropical storm (SSHWS)
 
DurationJune 27 – June 29
Peak intensity75 km/h (45 mph) (10-min);
996 hPa (mbar)

An area of disturbed weather that began as a part of a monsoon trough[7] formed around June 23 east of the Philippines, and moved slowly over the islands. The Joint Typhoon Warning Center released a Tropical Cyclone Formation Alert on June 25 as the system moved over the Philippines, and upgraded the system to Tropical Depression 03W the next day. The depression continued to organize as it moved away from the Philippines, and the JTWC upgraded it to Tropical Storm 03W on June 27. The Japan Meteorological Agency designated the storm as Tropical Storm Jelawat shortly after. The name Jelawat was submitted by Malaysia, and is a name for a type of carp.

Jelawat moved generally northwestward over the South China Sea during the next day, and weakened back to a tropical depression on June 28. The depression made landfall in southern China at 7:40 a.m. CST on June 29[8] and dissipated later that day.

The storm dropped heavy rainfall across southern China and Haikou recorded a rainfall of 309.7 mm (12 inches) during the storm passage.[9] A total of 8.6 inches (220 mm) rain fell in 16 hours in Kampung Bundu, Malaysia.[10] The rainfall killed seven people and left one missing. The flooding from Jelawat ruined 200 square kilometres of farmland and destroyed 190 houses.[11]

Typhoon Ewiniar (Ester)

Very strong typhoon (JMA)
Category 4 super typhoon (SSHWS)
 
DurationJune 30 – July 10
Peak intensity185 km/h (115 mph) (10-min);
930 hPa (mbar)
Main article: Typhoon Ewiniar (2006)

On June 29, a persistent tropical disturbance was classified as a tropical depression by the JTWC while east of Palau. The depression moved northwestward and was upgraded to Tropical Storm 04W by the JTWC on June 30. The JMA designated the storm Tropical Storm Ewiniar at around the same time. The name "Ewiniar" was submitted by the Federated States of Micronesia, and refers to a traditional storm god of Chuuk.

Ewiniar was responsible for at least 30 deaths in China, which it brushed as a typhoon. The typhoon gradually weakened as it moved over colder waters, and made landfall in South Korea on July 10 as a severe tropical storm. As Ewiniar moved across the country, it passed within 30 miles (50 km) of Seoul.[12] No tropical cyclone had come that close to Seoul in recent years.[citation needed] The passage of the storm brought heavy rain that triggered floods and mudslides in the southern part of the country, killing at least six people.[13] Ewiniar became extratropical over the Sea of Japan on the same day.

Severe Tropical Storm Bilis (Florita)

Severe tropical storm (JMA)
Tropical storm (SSHWS)
 
DurationJuly 9 – July 15
Peak intensity110 km/h (70 mph) (10-min);
970 hPa (mbar)
Main article: Tropical Storm Bilis

A tropical disturbance northeast of Yap developed sufficient convection to be designated a tropical depression on July 8. The depression strengthened into a tropical storm the next day, and was designated Tropical Storm Bilis by the JMA. The word "Bilis", submitted by the Philippines, means speed or swiftness. PAGASA operationally treated this storm as a typhoon for a short time on July 13, but it officially remained a tropical storm as it moved west-northwestward toward Taiwan.

After moving over northern Taiwan, Bilis made landfall in Fujian, China at 12:50 p.m. CST on July 14,[14] weakening into a tropical depression inland the next day. JMA carried the system as a tropical depression until July 17.[15] Bilis brought very heavy rain, widespread flooding, landslides, and strong winds to the Philippines, Taiwan and areas of mainland China, causing 672 deaths and $4.4 billion (2006 USD) in damage.[16]

Typhoon Kaemi (Glenda)

Typhoon (JMA)
Category 2 typhoon (SSHWS)
 
DurationJuly 19 – July 26
Peak intensity150 km/h (90 mph) (10-min);
960 hPa (mbar)

A tropical depression formed on July 18 near the Caroline Islands, it quickly strengthened to tropical storm strength the same day. On July 19, the storm was named Kaemi by the JMA. The correct name Gaemi was submitted by South Korea and is a Korean word for ant. It strengthened into a severe tropical storm on July 20, and further deepened into a typhoon 24 hours later. Kaemi made landfall in Jinjiang, Fujian at 3:50 p.m. CST on July 25 as a minimal typhoon.[17]

Heavy rainfall in Taiwan caused flooding and four minor injuries. Rain also fell heavily in the northern Philippines.[18] The storm has also killed at least 32 people in China, while another 60 people are missing.[19]

Typhoon Prapiroon (Henry)

Typhoon (JMA)
Category 1 typhoon (SSHWS)
 
DurationAugust 1 – August 5
Peak intensity120 km/h (75 mph) (10-min);
970 hPa (mbar)

PAGASA named a system east of the Philippines as Tropical Depression Henry later on the same day that the JMA recognised it as a tropical depression on July 28. The JTWC upgraded this system to a tropical storm on the morning of August 1. Hong Kong Observatory also did so and issued the Tropical Cyclone Signal No. 1 that same afternoon, and shortly after the JMA upgraded the system to Tropical Storm Prapiroon. The name Prapiroon was submitted by Thailand and is the name of a Thai rain deity. The JMA upgraded the storm to a severe tropical storm on the morning of August 2. PAGASA ceased advisories on the storm shortly after as it moved out of its area of responsibility. The JTWC and the HKO upgraded Prapiroon to a typhoon at 3 a.m. UTC, while the JMA officially upgraded it to a typhoon at 12 p.m. UTC (8 p.m. HKT). Prapiroon necessitated the first Tropical Cyclone Signal No. 8 in Macau this year.[20] In Hong Kong, the flag raising ceremony at the Golden Bauhinia Square was cancelled due to strong wind.[21] Prapiroon made landfall at 7:20 p.m. CST on August 3.[22]

The strong winds due to the storm resulted in 70% of flights being cancelled, delayed or diverted in the Hong Kong International Airport, the highest since the opening in 1999. However, the airport remained open throughout the storm passage and many flights successfully landed or took off on August 3.[23] Inbound flights were rerouted to nearby airports and outbound flights were cancelled or postponed.[24] On landfall in Guangdong province, China, it forced the evacuation of some 660,000 people and caused an estimated 5.4 billion Chinese yuan worth of damage. 77 people were reported killed.[25] It also affected Hunan, Guangxi and Hainan. Prapiroon degenerated into an area of low pressure on August 6.

Typhoon Maria

Typhoon (JMA)
Tropical storm (SSHWS)
 
DurationAugust 5 – August 10
Peak intensity130 km/h (80 mph) (10-min);
975 hPa (mbar)

JMA identified a tropical depression southwest of Minami Torishima on August 4 and began issuing advisories. On August 5, the system had sufficiently strengthened to be named Tropical Storm Maria. The name Maria was submitted by the United States and is a common Chamorro feminine name.

The JTWC designated this system as a tropical depression later that day before upgrading it to a tropical storm on August 6, while the JMA upgraded it to a severe tropical storm at 6 a.m. UTC. Maria turned to the north, threatening Japan's mainland. JTWC briefly upgraded Maria to a typhoon on August 7, but issued its final advisory two days later as it started to turn extratropical. In the post season, the JTWC downgraded Maria to a Tropical Storm.

In post-operational analysis, the JMA upgraded Maria to a 70-kt typhoon.

Typhoon Saomai (Juan)

Violent typhoon (JMA)
Category 5 super typhoon (SSHWS)
 
DurationAugust 5 – August 11
Peak intensity195 km/h (120 mph) (10-min);
925 hPa (mbar)
Main article: Typhoon Saomai

The JTWC identified a tropical depression near the Caroline Islands late on August 4 UTC. The JMA designated it as such at 12 a.m. UTC August 5. Nine hours later, the JTWC upgraded Tropical Depression 08W to a tropical storm, three hours before the JMA named it Saomai. The name is from the Vietnamese "sao Mai", meaning "Morning Star",[26] a reference to the planet Venus.

The JTWC designated it a typhoon at 3 p.m. UTC August 6. The JMA upgraded Saomai to a Severe Tropical Storm at 6 p.m. UTC, and as it continued to strengthen, it was upgraded to a typhoon just 12 hours later. Saomai passed into the Area of Responsibility of PAGASA on August 8 and was named Typhoon Juan by PAGASA. On August 8, the storm underwent explosive development, and by August 9 it had become a Category 5-equivalent super typhoon.

Saomai made landfall in Zhejiang, China on August 10 with maximum sustained winds of 115 knots (1-minute mean), stronger than Chanchu earlier this season.[27] Saomai was responsible for at least 458 deaths, mostly in China, and $2.5 billion (2006 USD) in damage.[16]

Severe Tropical Storm Bopha (Inday)

Severe tropical storm (JMA)
Tropical storm (SSHWS)
 
DurationAugust 6 – August 9
Peak intensity100 km/h (65 mph) (10-min);
980 hPa (mbar)

The JMA identified a tropical depression in the open Pacific on August 5. PAGASA named this storm late on August 5 as it was forecast to enhance the southwest monsoon and bring rains to the Philippines. JMA upgraded it to Tropical Storm Bopha on August 6. The name Bopha was submitted by Cambodia and is a flower and girls' name.

The JTWC recognised its existence as a tropical depression at 9 a.m. UTC the same day before upgrading it to a tropical storm at 3 p.m. UTC. The JMA then upgraded it to a severe tropical storm as it slowly churned westwards at 12 a.m. UTC August 7 before downgrading it 18 hours later. Bopha unexpectedly restrengthened into a severe tropical storm at 3 a.m. UTC August 8, before weakening back to a tropical storm at 12 p.m. UTC.

Bopha later made landfall on Taiwan at about 2 a.m. local time on August 9. Tropical Storm Bopha then weakened into a tropical depression before degenerating into a remnant low on August 10.

Severe Tropical Storm Wukong

Severe tropical storm (JMA)
Tropical storm (SSHWS)
 
DurationAugust 13 – August 19
Peak intensity95 km/h (60 mph) (10-min);
980 hPa (mbar)

A tropical depression (11W from the JTWC) formed south of Iwo Jima on August 12. Early on August 13, as it moved to the north-northwest, the JTWC upgraded it to a tropical storm. The JMA named it Wukong later that day. Wukong was submitted by People's Republic of China, and it is the name of a character in a Chinese epic. Wukong absorbed Tropical Storm Sonamu shortly before landfall in Japan. Wukong then stalled over Kyūshū, before starting to jog to the north-northwest. It was downgraded to a tropical depression on August 20.

In post-operational analysis by the JMA, Wukong was upgraded to a severe tropical storm.

Tropical Storm Sonamu (Katring)

Tropical storm (JMA)
Tropical storm (SSHWS)
 
DurationAugust 14 – August 15
Peak intensity65 km/h (40 mph) (10-min);
992 hPa (mbar)

On August 13, a tropical depression formed south of Naha, Okinawa, and was named Katring by PAGASA and Sonamu by JMA. The name Sonamu was submitted by DPR Korea and signifies a pine tree. Sonamu began interacting with nearby Tropical Storm Wukong on August 15, with the outflow from the stronger Wukong producing unfavourable shear over the cyclone. The JMA declared the system a tropical depression and stopped issuing advisories on August 16. The JTWC followed shortly after.

Typhoon Ioke

Violent typhoon (JMA)
Category 5 super typhoon (SSHWS)
 
DurationAugust 27 – September 6
Peak intensity195 km/h (120 mph) (10-min);
920 hPa (mbar)
Main article: Hurricane Ioke

On August 27, Hurricane Ioke, which had formed in the Central Pacific, crossed the International Date Line and entered the Japan Meteorological Agency's Area of Responsibility at around 6 a.m. UTC, keeping its name while being reclassified as Typhoon Ioke. Ioke had earlier affected Johnston Atoll. On August 31 the center of the typhoon passed very close to Wake Island; 200 people were evacuated from there in advance of its approach.[28] Typhoon Ioke then passed just to the northeast of Minami Torishima, which had been evacuated ahead of the storm, but as a weakened Category 3-equivalent typhoon. Ioke then turned to the northeast, weakening as it started undergoing extratropical transition. The JMA released its final advisory on September 7. The extratropical remnants of Ioke moved into the Bering Sea where it caused severe beach erosion along the western Alaskan coastline.[29]

Typhoon Shanshan (Luis)

Violent typhoon (JMA)
Category 4 typhoon (SSHWS)
 
DurationSeptember 10 – September 18
Peak intensity205 km/h (125 mph) (10-min);
919 hPa (mbar)
Main article: Typhoon Shanshan (2006)

Hong Kong Observatory identified a tropical depression about 460 kilometres north of Yap on September 9, the same day the JMA recognised it. The JTWC declared the formation of Tropical Depression 14W the next day. On the afternoon of September 10, it entered the PAGASA AOR and was named Luis. Later at 12 p.m. UTC on the same day, the JMA upgraded the tropical depression to Tropical Storm Shanshan. The name Shanshan was contributed by Hong Kong and is a girls' name. Shanshan quickly strengthened and was upgraded into a severe tropical storm on September 11 and a typhoon later that day. Shanshan weakened slightly on September 14, but quickly restrengthened and reached Category 4 status on the JTWC's scale. Shanshan passed through the Yaeyama Islands in the early morning hours of September 16. The JTWC reported that Shanshan was becoming extratropical early on September 17, as the typhoon weakened to a tropical storm. The JTWC issued its final advisory on Shanshan later that day, and the JMA issued its last advisory on September 19, after Shanshan completed extratropical transition.

As Shanshan neared Taiwan, the Central Weather Bureau and local officials warned of flooding and high winds. However, as Shanshan turned towards Japan, all warnings were cancelled. South Korean forecasters also issued warnings ahead of an expected landfall, but this did not materialise. Ships were diverted as ports were closed as a precaution, while some other boats were forced to remain docked.[30] In Japan, more than 90,000 people were evacuated from Yamaguchi Prefecture.[31]

Over 200 people were injured by Shanshan and 11 people were killed, mostly in Kyūshū, although two deaths were reported in South Korea. A tornado spawned by the typhoon caused a train derailment in Nobeoka, Miyazaki, Japan which caused no fatalities.[32] Peak gusts on Iriomote reached 155 mph (248 km/h).[31] Flights and trains were delayed, while electricity was cut to about 3000 homes in Korea. A ship also sank off Ulleungdo.[33]

Typhoon Yagi

Violent typhoon (JMA)
Category 5 super typhoon (SSHWS)
 
DurationSeptember 17 – September 25
Peak intensity195 km/h (120 mph) (10-min);
910 hPa (mbar)

The Joint Typhoon Warning Center identified an area of disturbed weather northeast of Chuuk on September 13. The disturbance drifted to the north over the next few days, gradually increasing in organization. The JTWC issued a Tropical Cyclone Formation Alert on the disturbance on September 16, and both the JTWC and JMA declared the system a tropical depression early on September 17. The JMA upgraded it to Tropical Storm Yagi later that morning as it moved erratically through the open Pacific Ocean, and the JTWC soon followed suit. The name Yagi was submitted by Japan and means Capricornus (goat). Yagi was upgraded to a severe tropical storm by the JMA on September 18, and the JTWC designated it a typhoon later that day. The JMA officially upgraded Yagi to typhoon status early on September 19. Yagi was upgraded briefly to a super typhoon by the JTWC from September 21 to September 22. On September 23, the JTWC reported that Yagi was becoming extratropical as it continued to weaken, and issued its final warning the next day. The JMA downgraded Yagi to a severe tropical storm on September 24. It was the third tropical cyclone in the NW Pacific Basin that attained Category 5 status in 2006. It started to recurve near Chichi-jima, and never affected major land areas. It became extratropical near the western Aleutians on September 25.

Typhoon Xangsane (Milenyo)

Very strong typhoon (JMA)
Category 4 typhoon (SSHWS)
 
DurationSeptember 26 – October 2
Peak intensity155 km/h (100 mph) (10-min);
940 hPa (mbar)
Main article: Typhoon Xangsane

On September 25, the Philippine Atmospheric, Geophysical and Astronomical Services Administration (PAGASA) named an active low pressure area within its area of responsibility Tropical Depression Milenyo. After issuing a Tropical Cyclone Formation Alert earlier, the Joint Typhoon Warning Center issued its first warning on Tropical Depression 18W. On September 26 the Japan Meteorological Agency named this system Xangsane. The name Xangsane was submitted by Laos and means elephant. Later that day, the JMA upgraded Xangsane to a severe tropical storm. A bout of rapid intensification followed, and all three agencies, the JMA, JTWC and PAGASA all upgraded the storm to a typhoon late on September 26 or early September 27. Xangsane made landfall on Samar Island as a severe tropical storm.

The typhoon dropped heavy rainfall in the Philippines. To avoid the storm, transit authorities kept seacraft at several ports in the archipelago, leaving over 3,500 passengers stranded.[34] Xangsane also prompted Philippine officials to close all schools, financial markets, and government offices in and around Manila.[35] The typhoon killed over 200 people in the country, and produced strong winds and rainfall, downing power lines and causing mudflows. The strong winds caused moderate crop damage totaling to $7.2 million (2006 USD).[36]

Xangsane made landfall as a typhoon near Hue early on October 1. The JTWC stopped issuing advisories soon after, and the JMA downgraded it to a severe tropical storm. Xangsane killed 71 in Vietnam.

Severe Tropical Storm Bebinca (Neneng)

Severe tropical storm (JMA)
Tropical storm (SSHWS)
 
DurationOctober 3 – October 6
Peak intensity95 km/h (60 mph) (10-min);
980 hPa (mbar)

On October 1, a persistent area of low pressure just east of the Philippines developed into Tropical Depression 19W. The JMA had already been monitoring the storm. It was named Neneng by PAGASA, and later that evening was upgraded to a tropical storm by the Philippine authorities. The JMA and JTWC both designated the storm a tropical storm the next day, and it was named Bebinca by the JMA. Bebinca is a type of Macanese milk pudding.

The JTWC downgraded it to a tropical depression briefly between October 4 and October 5 as wind shear took its toll. Its low-level circulation then became exposed with dry air entering the system, and both the JMA and JTWC declared the storm as a dissipating tropical depression on October 6. It soon became entrained within the circulation of a storm-force extratropical low, which swept across the Honshū coastal waters and led to 33 people dead or missing.[37] It was upgraded to a severe tropical storm in post analysis.

Tropical Storm Rumbia

Tropical storm (JMA)
Tropical depression (SSHWS)
 
DurationOctober 3 – October 6
Peak intensity85 km/h (50 mph) (10-min);
985 hPa (mbar)

On October 3, a tropical depression south of Minami Torishima in high sea-surface temperatures gained enough convection and was designated Tropical Storm Rumbia by the JMA, although the JTWC had not even carried it as a tropical depression. Rumbia is a type of palm tree that yields sago. Later that day, the JTWC issued a Tropical Cyclone Formation Alert, and began warnings on Tropical Depression 20W the next day. Rumbia slowly began to intensify while moving to the northwest, but on October 6 its low-level circulation became fully exposed, and the JTWC issued a final warning. The JMA followed suit soon after. The remnants of Rumbia were later no longer distinct from the extratropical low associated with Bebinca.

Typhoon Soulik

Typhoon (JMA)
Category 2 typhoon (SSHWS)
 
DurationOctober 9 – October 16
Peak intensity140 km/h (85 mph) (10-min);
955 hPa (mbar)

On October 9, an area of low pressure was found to have banding convection wrapping into a consolidating low-level circulation centre, and was declared a tropical depression by the JTWC. As the system strengthened further, it was upgraded to Tropical Storm 21W by the JTWC later that day. JMA followed suit and classified the storm as Tropical Storm Soulik. The name Soulik was submitted by the Federated States of Micronesia, and is a traditional title for Pohnpei chiefs. Soulik continued to intensify through October 10, and the JMA upgraded it to a severe tropical storm. Agrihan was put under a tropical storm watch, which was later upgraded to a warning. In 18 hours on October 11, 8 inches (205 mm) of rain was reported on Pagan Island.[38] After days of gradual strengthening, it became a typhoon on October 12, stalling over Iwo Jima. Soulik reached Category 2 status on the Saffir-Simpson Hurricane Scale on October 13 before gradually weakening and moving northeastward rapidly as it became extratropical.

Typhoon Cimaron (Paeng)

Very strong typhoon (JMA)
Category 5 super typhoon (SSHWS)
 
DurationOctober 27 – November 4
Peak intensity185 km/h (115 mph) (10-min);
920 hPa (mbar)

An area of disturbed weather developed northwest of Chuuk on October 24. The disturbance moved west-northwestward over the next two days and gradually became better organized, and the Joint Typhoon Warning Center issued a Tropical Cyclone Formation Alert on the system on October 26. The system was designated Tropical Depression 22W by the JTWC later that day. The system continued to strengthen, and the JTWC upgraded it to a tropical storm on October 27. The Japan Meteorological Agency later followed suit and designated the system Tropical Storm Cimaron. The name Cimaron was submitted by the Philippines, and is a type of wild ox. The system quickly intensified, and was upgraded to a severe tropical storm by the JMA later that day. The system continued its quick intensification and was upgraded to a typhoon by both the JTWC and JMA on October 28. Further intensification occurred overnight, and the typhoon had rapidly deepened 65 hPa in 24 hours, from 985 hPa to 920 hPa, causing the JTWC to upgrade it to a 140-kt super typhoon at 9 a.m. UTC on October 29. It made landfall at about 12:30 p.m. UTC the same day on Northern Luzon. There, especially in Isabela Province, it lashed winds as much as 195km/h and gusts as much as 230km/h.[39] Actually, all or parts of four provinces (Isabela, Quirino, Cagayan and Aurora) are declared under Signal#4 as the typhoon struck the island.[40]

Cimaron then re-intensified after crossing the island, but not to its original strength, and was expected to curve towards Hainan, instead of moving towards Vietnam as previously forecast. On November 1, the JTWC upgraded the typhoon back into a Category 3-equivalent storm, and forecast that it would make a direct impact on Hong Kong. However, prediction models showed conflicting forecasts, and Cimaron remained quasi-stationary and weakened to a severe tropical storm on November 2. Dry air entrainment caused further weakening, with the JTWC dropping it to a minimal tropical storm at 3 p.m. UTC the next day. It weakened further, upwelling itself. The JTWC issued its final warning at 3 p.m. UTC on November 4. The JMA continued advisories on Cimaron until 12 a.m. UTC on November 6, when it was downgraded to a weak tropical depression.

The typhoon killed at least 19 people, many of whom drowned, and left 15 missing in the northern Philippines. It also killed a woman and her child after both are hit by a sheet of galvanized iron in Dilasag, Aurora Province, serving as the first human casualties.[41] Further casualties happened as the typhoon passed through Luzon.[42] Despite these, however, classes in Metro Manila were still not suspended.[43] It also caused at least US$9 million in damage.[44] 90% of the houses were damaged in a coastal town near where Cimaron made landfall.[45] In the aftermath of the storm's passage across the Philippines, the Swedish International Development Cooperation Agency contributed 2.5 million Swedish krona (US$350,000) to aid efforts.[46]

Typhoon Chebi (Queenie)

Very strong typhoon (JMA)
Category 4 typhoon (SSHWS)
 
DurationNovember 9 – November 13
Peak intensity185 km/h (115 mph) (10-min);
925 hPa (mbar)

An area of disturbed weather developed east of the Mariana Islands on October 31, and moved west-northwestward over the next week without any increase in organization due to an unfavorable environment, until November 6, when it encountered more favorable conditions, and the Japan Meteorological Agency declared it a tropical depression on November 8. The Joint Typhoon Warning Center issued a Tropical Cyclone Formation Alert on the system later that day, and PAGASA named the system Tropical Depression Queenie shortly after. The JTWC classified it as Tropical Depression 23W early on November 9. According to the JTWC, lack of equatorial outflow prevented rapid intensification of the system. Later that day at 12 p.m. UTC, the JMA upgraded it to a tropical storm named it Chebi. The name Jebi, the correct spelling means swallow in Korean. The JTWC and PAGASA both followed suit later that day. Early on November 10, the JMA upgraded Chebi to a severe tropical storm as it continued to move west towards the Philippines, following a similar track as Typhoon Cimaron earlier in the season.

Just hours later, the JMA upgraded Chebi from severe tropical storm with 10-minute sustained winds of 55 knots to a typhoon with winds of 95 knots, with a pressure decrease of 40 hPa over three hours. The JTWC followed suit, upping Chebi from a tropical storm with 1-minute sustained winds of 55 knots to a Category 4-equivalent typhoon at 9 a.m. UTC. PAGASA raised Public Storm Warning Signal #4 for three provinces in Luzon, making Chebi the second storm (Typhoon Cimaron served as the first one that year.) in as many weeks to force a Signal #4. After rapidly deepening, Chebi weakened as it approached the Philippines. It made its first landfall near Casiguran, Aurora early on November 11, crossed the Lingayen Gulf and its second landfall on Barangay Lucap, Alaminos City about 8 hours later.

Encountering dry air entrainment and increased vertical wind shear in the South China Sea, Chebi began to gradually weaken to a severe tropical storm on November 12. It continued to weaken, turning northwards towards Hainan, and was downgraded to a tropical storm the next day. On November 14, the JMA issued its last advisory on the dissipating tropical depression. The JTWC issued its final warning later that same day as Chebi dissipated under the strong shear.

All told, the typhoon caused further casualties as well as damage caused by the earlier Typhoon Cimaron. After passing through Luzon, it left 1 dead and 10 injured.[47] In Aurora Province, it caused floods, cutting the province's road system[48], as well as zero visibility, further isolating it from relief efforts.[49]

Typhoon Durian (Reming)

Violent typhoon (JMA)
Category 4 super typhoon (SSHWS)
 
DurationNovember 26 – December 5
Peak intensity195 km/h (120 mph) (10-min);
915 hPa (mbar)
Main article: Typhoon Durian

An area of disturbed weather developed southeast of Chuuk on November 24. Wind shear near the disturbance soon decreased, allowing the depression to organize a little. It was designated a tropical depression by Japan Meteorological Agency on November 25, and later that day the Joint Typhoon Warning Center started issuing warnings on the system as it moved west-northwest towards Yap. The depression strengthened because it was in an area of high sea-surface temperatures, and there were distinct cloud features of anticyclonic outflow, according to the JMA. It was upgraded to a tropical storm on the afternoon of November 26 and named Durian. The name Durian refers to a fruit, "Durio zibethinus", and was submitted to the naming list by Thailand.

Moving west to west-northwestward, Durian intensified slowly. It became a severe tropical storm on November 27, and the next day it was named Reming by PAGASA when it entered the Philippine Area of Responsibility. Later on November 28, both the JMA and JTWC upgraded it to a typhoon as it continued to track towards the Philippines. A quick bout of intensification occurred on November 29, causing the JMA to upgrade the storm to 100 knots in wind intensity, and the JTWC to give it a Dvorak classification of 6.5 (127 kt) in a satellite fix. In 6 hours, Durian intensified from 90 kt 1-minute sustained winds to 125 kt winds. The JTWC then forecast a direct hit over Metro Manila later that day when it upgraded the storm to a super typhoon. PAGASA raised Public Storm Warning Signal 4, its highest warning level, over Catanduanes, Albay, Camarines Norte and Camarines Sur. It was the third time in 2006, and the third time in a row, that PAGASA raised Signal #4. Durian began to weaken slightly as it approached land, undergoing an eyewall replacement cycle, but quickly regained peak strength.

PAGASA claimed that the storm made landfall on the morning of November 30 over southern Catanduanes, although the JMA and JTWC did not recognize this landfall. Durian then made another landfall after crossing the Lagonoy Gulf in northeastern Albay. After weakening due to interaction with land, Durian was downgraded back to a typhoon by the JTWC. The storm continued to move west, making landfalls on the Bondoc Peninsula in Quezon, on Marinduque and finally on Oriental Mindoro before exiting to the South China Sea.

Encountering dry air entrainment and vertical wind shear, Durian weakened slightly at first, but slowly began to reorganise and restrengthen as it neared Vietnam. Durian began to turn slightly southwest towards Nha Trang and Ho Chi Minh City on December 3. Eventually, Durian began to weaken again, and by December 4, the JMA downgraded it to a severe tropical storm. The storm maintained intensity as it skirted the Vietnamese coast moving southwest. After a brief second stint at typhoon strength, Durian finally made landfall in Ben Tre Province on December 5. The system rapidly weakened over land, and the JMA downgraded it to a tropical storm. The JMA and JTWC issued their final advisories later that day as Durian emerged into the Gulf of Thailand as a weak tropical depression. The remnants of Durian then crossed the coast of southern Thailand as it moved into the Bay of Bengal.

The storm killed at least 720 in the Philippines.[50] The most damage occurred in Albay Province where the storm created mudslides of volcanic ash and boulders off Mayon Volcano.[51] The Padang barangay of Legazpi City was severely affected with a large portion of the town covered in mud up to houses' roofs.[52] At least 81 people have died and 16 people are missing in Vietnam from the storm.[53]

Typhoon Utor (Seniang)

Very strong typhoon (JMA)
Category 3 typhoon (SSHWS)
 
DurationDecember 7 – December 14
Peak intensity155 km/h (100 mph) (10-min);
945 hPa (mbar)

On December 2, an area of convection was spotted by the Joint Typhoon Warning Center southeast of Chuuk. Although convection decreased in the next few hours, on December 5 the JTWC once again noted flaring deep convection, and late on December 6 a Tropical Cyclone Formation Alert was issued. On the morning of December 7, both the JTWC and Japan Meteorological Agency-RSMC Tokyo reported that a tropical depression had formed. Soon after, the depression entered the area of responsibility of PAGASA, who named it Seniang. The depression strengthened throughout the day, and the JMA upgraded it to Tropical Storm Utor later that day. The name Utor was submitted by the United States on behalf of the Marshall Islands, and is a Marshallese word for squall line.

On December 8, the JMA upgraded Utor to a severe tropical storm. It intensified further and was upgraded to a typhoon by the JMA on the morning of December 9, with PAGASA and JTWC doing the same. The storm made landfall shortly after noon local time the same day. After crossing the Philippines, Utor took a track similar to Typhoon Chebi in November, first moving northwest then threatening to take aim at Hong Kong. It restrengthened to an 85-kt typhoon, before it slowed as it tracked in a weak steering environment within a weakness in the subtropical ridge. It then weakened as wind shear increased and dry air entrainment occurred. The JMA downgraded it to a severe tropical storm on December 13, and to a tropical storm the same day. The next day the JTWC downgraded the storm to a tropical storm and issued its last advisory.

The 2006 ASEAN and East Asia Summit, originally scheduled to start December 10, was put back a month due to the storm.[54][55] Typhoon Utor killed at least 30, and left 8 others missing.[56]

Typhoon Utor was blamed for heavy rains of up to 350 mm within 24 hours in southern Peninsular Malaysia, specifically Johor, Negeri Sembilan, Melaka and Pahang, causing massive floods within the southern region on 18 December 2006, which was considered as the worst in the Malaysian southern region history.[57] However, there were also reports a few days earlier that adverse weather was not to be blamed on the typhoon.[58] The worst-affected areas were Segamat and Kota Tinggi, where both towns were totally inaccessible by land after all main roads leading to those towns were all flooded.[59] Until 24 December 2006, the floods had claimed 8 lives.[60]

Tropical Storm Trami (Tomas)

Tropical storm (JMA)
Tropical depression (SSHWS)
 
DurationDecember 17 – December 18
Peak intensity65 km/h (40 mph) (10-min);
1000 hPa (mbar)

On December 16, the Japan Meteorological Agency started issuing public bulletins on a tropical depression southwest of Guam. The Joint Typhoon Warning Center initiated warnings on Tropical Depression 26W the next day, despite having not issued a Tropical Cyclone Formation Alert. The system was upgraded to a tropical storm by the JMA and named Trami, which is a kind of rose tree. This name was submitted by Vietnam. The storm moved west-northwest rapidly towards the Philippines, but struggled against wind shear and an approaching cold front. Entering the PAGASA Area of Responsibility on December 18 as it maintained minimal tropical storm intensity, it was named Tomas. The JTWC issued its final warning later that day, having never upgraded the storm to tropical storm strength, citing no indication of a significant low-level circulation centre. On December 19, the JMA downgraded the storm to a tropical depression and issued its last public bulletin as the storm dissipated over water.

Other storms

These systems were not officially named as tropical storms by the JMA, although the JMA might have monitored them as tropical depressions. They were, however, designated as tropical cyclones by the Philippines (PAGASA), China (CMA), and/or the Joint Typhoon Warning Center (JTWC).

PAGASA Tropical Depression Agaton

Tropical depression (PAGASA)
 
DurationJanuary 21 – January 24
Peak intensity55 km/h (35 mph) (10-min);
1000 hPa (mbar)

On January 21, a tropical depression formed about 230 km east-northeast of Hinatuan, Surigao del Sur within the Philippine area of responsibility, and was named Agaton by PAGASA for Philippine warnings. The depression weakened into a low pressure system on January 24 after landfall.

The system entered into the South China Sea and became better organized. Therefore, China declared the formation of a tropical depression on January 25.[61] and forecast that it would become a tropical storm. However, the depression failed to develop.[62]

JTWC Tropical Storm 01W (Basyang)

Tropical depression (PAGASA)
Tropical storm (SSHWS)
 
DurationMarch 4 – March 7
Peak intensity55 km/h (35 mph) (10-min);
996 hPa (mbar)

On March 4, a tropical depression formed out of a wave close to the equator southeast of Palau. The JTWC upgraded it to Tropical Storm 01W at 3 p.m. UTC the same day. The JTWC downgraded it back to a depression on March 5 due to shear, and it never regained tropical storm strength before dissipating on March 7.[63]

In the six years since current naming conventions were introduced, this was the 12th time the JTWC recognised a tropical storm not named by the JMA, after three storms in the 2001 Pacific typhoon season,[64] two storms each in 2000,2002,[65] and 2004[66] and one each in 2003 and 2005.[67]

CMA Tropical Depression 03

Tropical depression (CMA)
 
DurationJuly 3 – July 4
Peak intensity55 km/h (35 mph) (10-min);
998 hPa (mbar)

On July 3, China Meteorological Administration identified a tropical depression about 200 km south of Sanya, Hainan.[68] The depression moved northwest and made landfall at 7:10 p.m. CST in Hainan on the same day.[69] The storm's lowest pressure was around 998 hPa.[70] On the next morning, it entered Gulf of Tonkin and strengthened slightly. Eventually, the depression made its second landfall near Guangxi/Vietnam border around noon and rapidly weakened over land.[71]

Non-NMHS Tropical Depression

Tropical depression
 
DurationJuly 21 – July 22
Peak intensity45 km/h (30 mph) (10-min);
1002 hPa (mbar)

Guangdong Regional Meteorological Centre, not a National Meteorological and Hydrological Service (for China, this is the CMA) identified a tropical depression about 300 km south of Xisha on July 21.[72] The system remained weak and dissipated on the next morning.

JTWC Tropical Depression 13W

Tropical depression (SSHWS)
 
DurationAugust 24 – August 25
Peak intensity55 km/h (35 mph) (1-min);
1000 hPa (mbar)

In the afternoon of August 23, the China Meteorological Administration declared the formation of a tropical depression near Hainan. Hong Kong Observatory followed later that afternoon. The depression necessitated Tropical Cyclone Signal No.1 in Hong Kong and Macau, which means that the centre of a tropical cyclone is within 800 km (500 miles) of the respective Special Administrative Regions, and may later affect them. The depression made landfall at Guangdong at 5:55 a.m. CST on August 25[73] and dissipated later that morning.

The JTWC designated the system as a Tropical Depression at 9 p.m. UTC August 24, but only issued two warnings on the system.

JTWC Tropical Depression 15W

Tropical depression (SSHWS)
 
DurationSeptember 12 – September 13
Peak intensity55 km/h (35 mph) (1-min);
1000 hPa (mbar)

Hong Kong Observatory identified a tropical depression about 360 kilometres east-northeast of Xisha on September 12 and issued Standby Signal No.1 accordingly. The tropical depression also necessitated the issuance of the Standby Signal No. 1 in Macau at 2 p.m. UTC on the same day. The JTWC designated it as a tropical depression, 15W, at 9 p.m. UTC September 12. The JMA had earlier already identified it as a tropical depression. As it strengthened and edged closer to the coastal areas of Guangdong, the Strong Wind Signal No. 3 was issued both in Hong Kong and Macau on September 13. It made landfall in western Guangdong around 11:30 p.m. CST that night and dissipated inland.[74]

JTWC Tropical Storm 17W

Tropical storm (SSHWS)
 
DurationSeptember 23 – September 25
Peak intensity65 km/h (40 mph) (1-min);
996 hPa (mbar)

The China Meteorological Administration (CMA) and Hong Kong Observatory both identified a tropical depression in the southern South China Sea on September 22. The system was organized enough to be classified as Tropical Depression 17W by the JTWC the next day. The JTWC briefly upgraded it to a tropical storm on September 24. It weakened under heavy vertical wind shear and the JTWC issued its final advisory on Tropical Depression 17W before landfall in Vietnam. The storm passed just south of Hainan and brought heavy rain to the area. The maximum rainfall recorded was 143mm.[75] CMA kept it as a tropical storm until it made landfall in Vietnam in the morning of September 25. In the six years since current naming conventions were introduced, this was the 13th time the JTWC recognised a tropical storm not named by the JMA. This was also the 3rd time that CMA recognised a tropical storm not named by the JMA, after one storm in the 2000 Pacific typhoon season,[76] zero in 2001, 2002 and 2003,[77][78][79] one in 2004.[80]

PAGASA Tropical Depression Ompong

Tropical depression (PAGASA)
 
DurationOctober 12 – October 13
Peak intensity55 km/h (35 mph) (10-min);
1000 hPa (mbar)

On October 12, a tropical disturbance that had been meandering in the Philippine Area of Responsibility was designated Tropical Depression Ompong by PAGASA. The depression slowly moved westward toward the Philippines, but wind shear from Typhoon Soulik prevented any intensification. The depression degenerated into an area of low pressure early the next day.

Storm names

Western North Pacific tropical cyclones are named by the RSMC Tokyo-Typhoon Center of the Japan Meteorological Agency. Names are selected from the following sequential list, there is no annual list. Names were contributed by 13 members of the ESCAP/WMO Typhoon Committee, except for Singapore. The 13 nations or territories, along with the Federated States of Micronesia, each submitted 10 names, which are used in alphabetical order by the English name of the country. The names on the list are identical to that used in the 2005 season with the exception of Pongsona, Maemi, Sudal, Rananim, Yanyan and Tingting which were replaced by Noul, Mujigae, Mirinae, Fanapi, Dolphin and Lionrock respectively. Names in gray were used in 2005, or have not yet been used this season. Active storms are marked in bold with the marker (active). Names not greyed out have been used this season. The first storm of the season was named Chanchu, and the last storm was named Trami.

Contributing Nation Names
Cambodia Damrey Kong-rey Nakri Krovanh Sarika
China Longwang Yutu Fengshen Dujuan Haima
DPR Korea Kirogi Toraji Kalmaegi Mujigae Meari
Hong Kong Kai-Tak Man-yi Fung-wong Choi-wan Ma-on
Japan Tembin Usagi Kammuri Koppu Tokage
Laos Bolaven Pabuk Phanfone Ketsana Nock-ten
Macau Chanchu 0601 Wutip Vongfong Parma Muifa
Malaysia Jelawat 0602 Sepat Nuri Melor Merbok
Micronesia Ewiniar 0603 Fitow Sinlaku Nepartak Nanmadol
Philippines Bilis 0604 Danas Hagupit Lupit Talas
RO Korea Kaemi 0605 Nari Changmi Mirinae Noru
Thailand Prapiroon 0606 Wipha Mekkhala Nida Kulap
U.S.A. Maria 0607 Francisco Higos Omais Roke
Vietnam Saomai 0608 Lekima Bavi Conson Sonca
Cambodia Bopha 0609 Krosa Maysak Chanthu Nesat
China Wukong 0610 Haiyan Haishen Dianmu Haitang
DPR Korea Sonamu 0611 Podul Noul Mindulle Nalgae
Hong Kong Shanshan 0613 Lingling Dolphin Lionrock Banyan
Japan Yagi 0614 Kajiki Kujira Kompasu Washi
Laos Xangsane 0615 Faxai Chan-hom Namtheun Matsa
Macau Bebinca 0616 Peipah Linfa Malou Sanvu
Malaysia Rumbia 0617 Tapah Nangka Meranti Mawar
Micronesia Soulik 0618 Mitag Soudelor Fanapi Guchol
Philippines Cimaron 0619 Hagibis Molave Malakas Talim
RO Korea Chebi 0620 Noguri Koni Megi Nabi
Thailand Durian 0621 Rammasun Morakot Chaba Khanun
U.S.A. Utor 0622 Matmo Etau Aere Vicente
Vietnam Trami 0623 Halong Vamco Songda Saola

One storm, Hurricane Ioke, entered the Western North Pacific from the Central North Pacific, retaining its name assigned by the Central Pacific Hurricane Center. It was given the international typhoon number 0612 by the JMA.

Philippines

The Philippine Atmospheric, Geophysical and Astronomical Services Administration (PAGASA) uses its own naming scheme for tropical cyclones within its area of responsibility. Lists are recycled every four years. On the 2006 list, the name "Gloria" was replaced by "Glenda".[81]

  • Ompong
  • Paeng 0619
  • Queenie 0620
  • Reming 0621
  • Seniang 0622
  • Tomas 0623
  • Usman (unused)
  • Venus (unused)
  • Waldo (unused)
  • Yayang (unused)
  • Zeny (unused)
  • Agila (unused)
  • Bagwis (unused)
  • Chito (unused)
  • Diego (unused)
  • Elena (unused)
  • Felino (unused)
  • Gundig (unused)
  • Harriet (unused)
  • Indang (unused)
  • Jessa (unused)

Retirement

At the 39th meeting of the ESCAP/WMO Typhoon Committee in Manila in December 2006, it was decided that five names - Chanchu, Bilis, Saomai, Xangsane and Durian would be retired, with replacement names due to be submitted at the 40th annual meeting of the committee.[82] The names Sanba, Maliksi, Son Tinh, Leepi and Mangkhut were chosen respectively [83].

See also

Template:Tcportal

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External links

Wikimedia Commons has media related to 2006 Pacific typhoon season.

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