Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scouting

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Article	Content, remarks
Scouting	Describes the movement of Scouting: history (founding, growth), activities one does in Scouting, organization, should cover both male (Boy Scouts and Cubs) and female (Girl Guides and Brownies), younger/older sections, international
Scout Movement	redirect to Scouting
Boy Scout	About the boy 11-17 years, activities he does in Scouting, Troop/Patrol, Scout Law, Motto, Uniform. Not about history, not about the organization or movement. This article should include a remark that girls may follow this line of Scouting too, instead of being a Girl Guide (Europe/World line of thinking)
Scout	remains disambiguation page
Girl Guide and Girl Scout	About the girl, article equivalent to Boy Scout
Girl Guide, Girl Scout	redirect to GG&GS (US line of thinking)
Cub Scout, Brownie (Girl Guides)	About the little boy/girl, equivalent to Boy Scout
Robert Baden-Powell, 1st Baron Baden-Powell	About the person Baden-Powell, and his personal history. Not about the Scout movement other than his input/influence. Lots of redirects here, btw.
Boy Scouts, Girl Guides, etc	General summary pages that have see also links to other Scouting pages. Used to avoid to lead users to more indepth articles, no longer disambiguation pages due to all the confusion of different naming conventions. All other plurals redirect to the singular per Wikipedia standard, not to Scouting or a separate organization oriented article
WOSM, WAGGGS	Articles about the current international organization. Not about the Scouting movement, history pertaining to the organization only.

Non-free content

I noticed that a bunch of album images I had uploaded were getting the license tag changed over the weekend. Curious as to the change, it leads me to Wikipedia:Non-free content/templates.

For the purposes of consistency and automated identification, all non-free images on English Wikipedia must be directly tagged with a template that begins with the prefix "Non-free". This will enable automated tools to detect such images by matching on the wikitext for the regex "\{\{[Nn]on-free" or by consulting the templatelinks table in the database. Machine readability is required by the Wikimedia foundation licensing policy.

It would appear that this would then apply to Scoutlogo. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 17:40, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I received this on my talkpage:

Fair use rationale for Image:Union of Brazilian Scouts logo.png

Thanks for uploading Image:Union of Brazilian Scouts logo.png. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale.

If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. —Remember the dot ^(talk) 21:50, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Are they kidding? Does this mean they will now require separately written rationales on each of the 400+ Scout logos now currently in use on Wikipedia articles, which already have what they call a "boilerplate" disclaimer? Chris 22:28, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I suppose I've been cheating a bit. The last images I've uploaded, I have done a cut and paste, essentially a boilerplate. See the talk for Image:Venturer right pocket.png. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 00:06, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Tim Jeal's biography of B-P

Has anyone got Tim Jeal's biography of B-P and could spare the time to find and write a reference? I'm told Jeal says that B-P proposed to Rose Kerr in 1905. If someone with the book would put a reference in the Rose Kerr article, it would be appreciated. Kingbird 16:45, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

How about this- [1]. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:55, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I was hoping someone would volunteer a reference directly from the book. Kingbird 17:03, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Wim has a copy, I think.Rlevse 20:13, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Yep, got the book, read it three times now, and wrote the Tim Jeal article as well as the Baden-Powell (book). (Much better read, btw, than Kiernan, which I just don't seem to be able to finish). Don't these articles provide enough detail? Do you want the page number (348), you mean? Or just confirmation that B-P did propose to miss Gough (yes)? Jeal deduces that it was probably on 9 December, the date that his courting her was abruptly ended. Success with the Kerr article. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 23:28, 4 May 2007 (UTC).

Thanks, Wim. Page 348 in which edition? Kingbird 18:39, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

As far as I know, all editions have the same pagination. I used the Pimlico edition of 1991. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 20:09, 7 May 2007 (UTC).

Thank you. That's all I need. Kingbird 20:32, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Scout Hall

I found this article, it's actually an unrelated article, but isn't that what you chaps ;) call Scout meeting facilities in Britain and Australia and so on? If so, shouldn't this be a disambig page, or have something to qualify the name? Chris 11:11, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you are right. I thought there was some discussion last year on this when someone suggested an article on Scout Den, but I can not find it now. The current article is very brief. I'm not sure what we do about this one. --Bduke 12:45, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

ScoutingWikiProject on 21st WSJ

In about two months the 21st World Scout Jamboree will open. I'm wondering if any project members will take part? Are there questions worth checking (or tasks being done) during the WSJ? --jergen 18:35, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Participants

Please include status on WSJ (participant, troop staff, IST, contingent staff) and helpful equiment (camera, notebook, ...).

• jergen - IST from Germany - digicam (?)
• NThurston - not attending, but parent of participants & home-front support getting crew ready
• mathboy965 - Participant from USA - notebook

Questions and tasks

Please sign so that answers reach the right person.

• Official translations of NSO's names into English? --jergen

Reminder. Any wishes? --jergen 20:58, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes please! Please get a badge, a photo of a badge, or a physical description of a badge, for the newest WOSM members which joined in September 2005, Guinea and Malawi. If you can get actual badges I will trade or reimburse; if a photo or description we can have the GraphicsLab clean them up or create them. Thanks, brother! Chris 04:12, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Also, again see if you can find if maybe we have Iran mislabeled as being part of the Arab Region, when it should be A-P. Chris 04:25, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

You're back! How was it? What did you find out? :) Chris 00:05, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Stupid Bots

I've started going through these articles and fixing the FU rationale on the images beofre the bots get to them.

Alabama  • Alaska  • Arizona  • Arkansas  • California  • Colorado  • Connecticut  • Delaware  • Florida  • Georgia  • Hawaii  • Idaho  • Illinois  • Indiana  • Iowa  • Kansas  • Kentucky  • Louisiana  • Maine  • Maryland  • Massachusetts  • Michigan  • Minnesota  • Mississippi  • Missouri  • Montana  • Nebraska  • Nevada  • New Hampshire  • New Jersey  • New Mexico  • New York  • North Carolina  • North Dakota  • Ohio  • Oklahoma  • Oregon  • Pennsylvania  • Rhode Island  • South Carolina  • South Dakota  • Tennessee  • Texas  • Utah  • Vermont  • Virginia  • Washington  • West Virginia  • Wisconsin  • Wyoming

Washington, D.C. (District of Columbia)

--evrik ^(talk) 18:20, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

THank you!Rlevse 20:16, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

• No, thank you. I see you have been very active in this. --evrik ^(talk) 16:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

History

Does anyone know where in the Wikipedia:Archived delete debates all the articles we lost in the mass purge were listed? --evrik ^(talk) 21:15, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

• Somehow this question got lost in Rlevse's archival earlier. I'm still interested. --evrik ^(talk) 20:49, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

What articles specifically and when were they purged? If you know the names, that'd be awesome.Rlevse 22:53, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

logo request template

I have created {{reqScoutlogo}} for national Guide and Scout emblems we still lack, over 100. I haven't got all the kinks work out, but please, give it a visit. Chris 22:50, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Betacommand bot's plans

If you'd like to know what this bot is up to, see WP:AN#BetacommandBot_and_Fair_use. Rlevse 16:21, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Philly eviction

I read the wikinews article on a potential eviction of the Scouts in Philadelphia from their Scout building. As I read it, simply because city council and BSA management disagree on the (non)allowance of homosexual people to participate in Scouting. No wonder Scouting is controversial in the US. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:38, 14 June 2007 (UTC).

It's called political correctness and it's insanely run amok in America. Rlevse 21:43, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Or its called the government which is meant to be for all the people not encouraging discrimination against some of its people on grounds of religion or sexual orientation by subsidizing organizations that discriminate on those grounds. Note the Philly Scouts like the Sea Scouts in Berkeley will probably be able to pay the standard rate and stay. In either case this argument does not belong on the talk pages of wikipedia. I would look at http://www.religioustolerance.org/bsa.htm which contains an overview and links to multiple sides in the controversy.--Erp 00:53, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Also known as one person's rights outweighing the rights of 99 people's rights.Rlevse 01:33, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Girl Guides - dab or stub?

Some days ago I modified Girl Guides from a Wikipedia:Disambiguation to a Wikipedia:Stub. In the weeks before two users changed all links linking to Girl Guides to any of the mentioned meanings - in both cases with little knowledge of the subject.

Wikipedia:Disambiguation pages with links states that dab pages should not be linked to and that links should go directly to the appropriate article. This is executed by the project mentioned on Wikipedia:Disambiguation pages with links - with about 330 pages linking to Girl Guides it was one of the Top 10 linked dab pages. When I came upon this project I decided to change Girl Guides to a stub-like article, thus preventing changes on pages linking it.

Rlevse asked me to discuss this change within the project (cf. User talk:Jergen#Girl Guides 2). As far as I can see there are two possibilities for the future status of Girl Guides:

• Disambiguation. This means that all pages linking it must be changed to the matching article; sometimes this may be more than one articles.
• Stub/article. Then the article needs further content and it would surely repeat partly the contents of Scouting.

Comments? --jergen 16:56, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

The same issue exists with Boy Scouts, just fewer articles link directly to it and we'd have to change our written policy (see chart) at the top of this page. Rlevse 17:15, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Boy Scouts has only two article links - but we should clean up the links to Boy Scout. Many pages linking it do not refer to the section but to the movement or a national organisation (mostly the BSA). --jergen 17:32, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I wish I could give some insight on this-if the policy is that you cannot link to a disambig, then external editors will keep misrouting our links, so it is better to at least have a stub or article, even if most of it is copies and modified to feminine from masculine. Chris 05:10, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I can see both sides to this. I'd like more input.Rlevse 11:07, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

• I say {{disambig}} --evrik ^(talk) 20:08, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

  So you are going to check and fix the 330 links? --jergen 06:46, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

• Nope. But maybe we can get the page protected? --evrik ^(talk) 18:06, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
  • That is not the purpose of page protection.Rlevse 20:13, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
    • There has been plenty of time for input on this, we should leave it as Jergen suggests, except I made Girl Guide and Girl Scout redirect to Girl Guide and Girl Scout, following our pattern of the singular being about the individual youth, not the organization, which still leaves Girl Guides as a stub.Rlevse 23:36, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

      I agree, but am not totally happy with changing the redirects: Articles linking Girl Scout or Girl Guide usually refer to the worldwide movement or to a national organization. (BTW: It's the same with Boy Scouts.) It would be easier, if these redirects linked to Girl Guides and were checked once every two months. --jergen 19:19, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Scout troop

Sister and brother Scouts and Scouters- I made Scout troop a separate article, as

a) it was buried in "troop", and doesn't need to be something one hunts for past military and state patrols, and

b) I did not put it in BSA as it is not strictly relegated to the United States. Each country has troops, and my hope is to expand the article to include structures from different countries, and different outlooks, be it "troop", "troup", "otryad"...; male, female or co-ed; with or without patrols...

Please will you give the article a look and add specifics, differences or facts from your own country of organization?

Thanks, yours in Scouting, Chris 06:19, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I have given it a clean up. --Egel _Reaction? 11:20, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Weird question

Hi folks, I just thought of a weird one-is WOSM as an acronym ever pronounced as a word, like NASA is often said NAS-uh? Or is it always said W-O-S-M, like U-S-A? Chris 05:27, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

In The Netherlands it is pronounced as a word, otherwise the SM sounds too much like Sadism and Masochism. WAGGGS is pronounced as a word too.--Egel _Reaction? 07:46, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The same in German - and if each letter of WAGGGS was pronounced, everybody had to count the Gs... --jergen 08:00, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

In America, yes to both, they sound like WOZ-UM and WAGS. Rlevse 12:04, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Kudos to Graphics Lab

Sisters and Brothers, The folks at Wikipedia:Graphic Lab/Images to improve are doing something huge to preserve the history of some of the smaller, dormant or banned Scout organizations. Whoever issues barnstars, can we give these great friends a Scouting barnstar for their work? Chris 05:03, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

done.Rlevse 12:06, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Category:Wikipedians who survived Philmont

This is up for deletion. It is not an article so I brought it here. The discussion is at Wikipedia:User categories for discussion#Category:Wikipedians who survived Philmont. --Bduke 09:39, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Just relaised that Category:Wikipedians who survived ROCS is there too. --Bduke 09:39, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Request for modification to the {{Scoutlogo}} template

I would ask that we make a modification to the template, for defunct or out-of-copyright Scouting insignia-those being worked on at Wikipedia:Graphic Lab/Images to improve are between 20 and 45 years out of use, so they may actually not have copyright holders any longer, but the issue is raised of need. Chris 21:59, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Nthurston is our template coding expert. Wim is very good too.Rlevse 23:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind words, Randy. I however would like to approach this issue from a different angle: if a picture is free from copyright, it should be tagged as such, e.g., as public domain, and not as (non-free scout logo), which is by definition non-free. Why would you want to put a {{scoutlogo}} tag on it at all: that isn't applicable anymore then. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 20:08, 2 July 2007 (UTC).

Good point.Rlevse 20:22, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, the thing is, it may be defunct but may not yet be copyright free. All I am saying is, like there are the BSA subsections, there should be an extra section for emblems that are not now in use. Chris 22:01, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I'm probably not seeing 'it': what is the subsection that you'd like to see, then? 'defunct'? 'not-yet-free'? notinuse? And what should the resulting distinction from the standard template then be? Wim van Dorst (Talk) 23:04, 2 July 2007 (UTC).

Something that would change the wording in use to something like "This is an emblem or logo for a Scout association that no longer exists or is dormant, but is useful for Wikipedia for historical purposes. The copyright may or may not still be valid." Chris 05:12, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Aha, now I think I understand your request. But the point is that {{scoutlogo}} is a copyright tag, and whether an organization has disappeared or become dormant or whether the said logo is not any longer in use, does not change the copyright at all. On the contrary: copyrights are explicitly stated to remain valid under such conditions. At the end of organizations, rights of all kinds (property, copyrights, etc) don't disappear but get move to a person or other organization. This is murky waters indeed. At least for copyright by persons, death is a clear moment in time to start counting up to 2.2 billion seconds. Bottomline is that I therefore think is not appropriate to change the copyright tag. I propose that the current state of the owner of the copyright can be described in the running text of the image. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 12:39, 8 July 2007 (UTC).

I think Wim has it. The preference is to use {{Non-free media rationale}} in the image description; this information could be place under the Other information field. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:01, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Vietnamese Wikipedia on Scouting

User:Motthoangwehuong has done a great job tripling the size of our article on Scouting in Vietnam, and is singlehandedly writing the Scout articles on the Vietnamese Wikipedia, thus far he has done the Scout Law, Scout Handbook, WOSM, BP, reef knot, and articles on VN Scouting both in-country and in-exile! Chris 06:11, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, excellent improvement. I raised it to a B-class, but it still needs clean up.Rlevse 10:58, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Weird fact

Okay, I'm going through and describing the details on each national Scout and Guide emblem. The most common theme? Palm trees. I have counted at least a dozen. Sleep well. ;) Chris 06:29, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Robert Baden-Powell, 1st Baron Baden-Powell as August 1's TFA

I've just added Robert Baden-Powell, 1st Baron Baden-Powell to the Today's features article Date requests for August 1, that being the same day as the first Scout Camp, since it was already in the general queue. It'll need support to solidify being put up then, so if you want to see Baden-Powell on the front page on August 1st, go over and voice your opinion. JQF • Talk • Contribs 20:51, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Asociación de Guías Scouts de Bolivia

For some reason the coding on this one infobox will not accept the graphic, can someone help? Chris 18:24, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Fixed. JQF • Talk • Contribs 14:46, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! Chris 21:28, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

This same coding problem is happening at Asociación de Muchachas Guías de Panamá. Chris 06:09, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Fixed. --jergen 08:41, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Not sure where this is best placed...

...but Baden-Powell Award is currently in disastrous shape, and being associated with this group (As far as I can tell), I wanted to give some notice of this. Also, it's not linked any where... Thanx, 68.39.174.238 17:13, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks- checking 'what links here' helped me to place it. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 17:25, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Brownsea Island Scout camp as TFA for August 2nd?

Seeing as Baden Powell is being requested to be a TFA for August 1st, and the recently FAed Brownsea Island Scout camp has be forwarded as a possible alternate choice, I say why not try the second for August 2nd, as the first camp (which will be on it's hundredth anniversary) was from August 1-8. It'll need a request blurb first, but that shouldn't be a big issue. The next question is are there any other FA status we should try to have put up after that. The first two that come to mind are the Wood Badge and the Baden-Powell House articles, both of which are current FAs. What do people think? JQF • Talk • Contribs 23:08, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Done.Rlevse 23:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, it's an official request now, for any day August 1-8 after Baden Powell, with a preference for August 8 to mark the last day of the first scout camp. It'll need support, so if you want to see it TFA , go give it your support. JQF • Talk • Contribs 15:51, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Non-free Scoutlogo

As many of you may have noticed, a bot started editing images, changing the Scoutlogo template to Non-free Scoutlogo. This broke the category system. Rlevse simply moved Scoutlogo to Non-free Scoutlogo, so hopefully this nonsense will stop. I have updated WPS:IMAGE to reflect the new template. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:17, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Will we need to go in and manually change each? Chris 20:01, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes. The bot did not account for templates that use parameters, so the BSA images bumped up to the Scouting logo cat and it added non-existent cats based on the parameter. Randy and I have cleaned up all but 43 images left in Category:BSAC (click on this to open it as an edit). We still need to go back and apply the template to the images in Category:Scouting logos, as it removed the template and replaced it with the category. I do believe we need the template back, as I would not be surprised if the categories need to be renamed. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:27, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Category:Eagle Scouts

I have nominated Category:Eagle Scouts and one of its subcategories for listifying and deletion. I am absolutely certain that people here will disagree, but I thought that I would notify this WikiProject anyway. (This really could be handled in a list much better, with dates, references, and other information.) Dr. Submillimeter 13:57, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your courtesy. I think the list that you have in mind already exists as List of notable Eagle Scouts (Boy Scouts of America). Kingbird 16:19, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

It shouldn't be deleted, but that's another story.Rlevse 16:22, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I also noted on the CfD that the Fictional Eagle Scout cat can go as well since it is already on Scouting in popular culture. Might as well clear it all out. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:11, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

What's really interesting is that they think this is not worthy of a cat, but all those "year of birth/death" cats are more significant.Rlevse 20:15, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Raging debate at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 July 20 Rlevse 01:51, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. Interesting. See my comment there.Sumoeagle179 01:52, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

pdf file to text

Does anyone know how if at all it is possible to convert a pdf file to its textual component? Thanks! Chris 05:48, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes it is possible, when there is text in in the pdf, but some pdf's are just a set of pictures. Search for pdftohtml, pdf2html, pdftotxt, pdf2word etc. I know this one works: http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdftohtml/ --Egel _Reaction? 07:34, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I have Acrobat Pro 8.0 at work. Let me know if I can help with something specific. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 11:22, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I found a series of pdf files that have each Guide Motto in multiple languages, with all the diacritical marks in the right locations, which will save hours of typing and making sure we don't make typos. This information is both published by WAGGGS and public domain without copyright. Chris 21:30, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

If it is online, or you can email it to me, I can work on it next week. I'm Scouting this weekend! --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:35, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, e-mailed you them! :) Chris 21:35, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Scout logo template, fairuse, etc

After six days of work using AWB, I've now gone through the Scout logos category fixing the mess that bot made (see item 2 under announcements), adding fair use rationales since I was in that cat anyway, and generally fixing up things. There are 740+ images in it. PLus there was the day Gadget850 and I fixed the subcats with all the BSA images, an additional few hundred. I'm sure I made mistakes (like putting less than 300px vice greater than), but things are in far better shape. I found two BSA images missing the BSA options, DOZENS of images missing the GGGS-task-force tag, etc. Several images need better sources, for some I just had to put "website", which won't cut it, but things are much better and the bots shouldn't be giving us as much headaches, esp if we use the FUR template Gadget850 has worked on. See his neat updates to our Manual of Style.Rlevse 10:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Until the next thing the bots and their non-Scout-but-know-better-than-us-somehow masters find some fresh horror to plague us with... Chris 21:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Really, GEEZ, the image, cat and bot cabalists will drive everyone off wiki before long.Rlevse 21:59, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

{{Non-free media rationale}} has been moved to {{Non-free use rationale}} to make the name shorter. I guess we now call it Non-FUR. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 21:19, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

??Doesn't that only save two characters? Rlevse 22:09, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

B-P on Main Page

B-P's article will be one the Main Page on 1 Aug, the 100th annivesary of Scouting (see announcement section). The Brownsea article didn't get selected for any day of the anniversary week, which I expected as they don't like related topics close in time on the main page. But happy the founder of the world's largest youth movement made it on the anniversary date. It will assuredly be heavily vandalized. I suggest just letting it run and when it is over, review for good edits and revert the rest. Rlevse 15:30, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Hey gang, I know I've been away for quite some time, but I would like to congradulate everyone who helped to make the BP page into a featured article! It also looks like there has been a heck of a lot of progress in the Scouting Wikiproject as a whole. Good job to all of you! --Naha|^(talk) 15:26, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Scout Motto redux, please help clean up before I add the table

Hi folks, please check out Talk:Scout Motto, there was no structure to the original list, so I made it a table. I just can't figure out what to do with Esperanto (Estu preta), Interlingua (Sempre Preste), and Uighur (Tayyar Bol). Should a "language" column be added, maybe right after country? Chris 07:45, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi again, I am trying (and not yet successful) to incorporate a faded text for languages we still don't have. There is a table at the article Wallis and Futuna which uses the text style="color:#aaaaaa;" to make the parts of the box that still need inclusion a light grey, like most software that when you get to a function you can't use at that moment, it disables the dropdown but still allows it to be seen. Can anyone help with the coding? Chris 23:08, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

You mean like what I just tried? Rlevse 23:24, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Randy! What I mean is not where the box itself is greyed out, just so the request please add x language variant shows up in pale grey. Chris 23:31, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the phrase please add x language variant anywhere in the table. Put it somewhere so we know what you're talking about.Rlevse 23:59, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for being unclear-x simply represents the distinct name of the language-follow the American Samoa row across and you will see it. Chris 00:11, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

You should have said it was commented out in the code, not visible in the table in a browser.Rlevse 00:24, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I did already apologize for being unclear. Your new edit is closer, but the box color needs to stay the same as all others, only the text in the box should be faint grey, not red. Thanks! Chris 00:51, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Got it figured out, thanks for pointing me in the right direction! Chris 02:06, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Would you all take a look at it, as it is now? If there are no objections, I will move it into article space. With the exception of a couple, all the languages lacking are not widely spoken and would take forever, though I have put requests at each language page, national page, project page, and where I can find native speakers. Chris 09:55, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

GGGS Request

Anyone that has a copy of Trefoil Round the World, please fill in the Girl Guide and Girl Scout histories, as many of them are stubs. Chris 04:23, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Scouting 2007 Centenary

I have 18 photos of Tidewater’s “Sunrise of Scouting” ceremony, which celebrated the 100th anniversary of Scouting. This was done at 8am local time all over the world today. Aug 1, 1907 was when Baden-Powell began the first Scout campout at Brownsea Island, England.

They are on my flickr site here

and on wikicommons here

Feel free to pass this on and use the photos for Scouting purposes if you like. Rlevse 18:04, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

please help

Administrator's Commons have delete image: Image:Olave St Clair Soames.jpg, please help me I'dont speak englishSzumyk 08:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I've got our image expert looking into it.Rlevse 10:01, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Looks hopeless, but our image expert just found us a free one and I just put it on commons and changed the article.Rlevse 21:25, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Scouting in Spain

Okay, so the deletionists destroyed the worldwide gallery of Scout and Guide emblems, so I have made smaller, country specific galleries for national articles. Now they're saying we can't have them on the country specific ones? Someone has to put a stop to this madness. Chris 06:29, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

That's a victim of the long ongoing debate on one's definition of "replaceable". I don't like it either but as you know those who think if you're alive and in jail in deepest Tibet, you're photo can be easily obtained and hence a non-free image of you is "easily replaceable" now have the upper hand.Rlevse 10:49, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

The issue with Scouting in Spain is not replaceability, it is the use of non-free images in a gallery. The policy here is Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria (NFCC). As I see it, there are several issues with such a gallery in that article. The appropriate NFCC references in question here are:

• 3(a) Minimal use. As little non-free content as possible is used in an article
• 8 Significance. Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic

The images in question were the seven emblems of the Scouting associations in Spain, placed in a gallery at the end of the article. The real question, is how does the *gallery* enhance the article? In my opinion, it does nothing to aid the reader in understanding the subject.

Now- each image would be perfectly acceptable to illustrate the articles for each association. A problem here is that you don't have those articles yet, and per NFCC 7 (One-article minimum), those orphaned images are going to be deleted. One fix for that would be to start stubs for each article and include the image so it does not get deleted; else you will have to upload it again when you do get to that article. You could even write an article on "Emblems of Spanish Scouting associations" where you describe the meaning of each emblem. But, you simply cannot use non-free images in a gallery.

Now, I will defer to B here, but I have been following much of his work lately and I think I have a pretty good sense of how this works. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:15, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

The user who deleted it said in his summary his reason was number 8, which is replacability. I'm glad you and B understand this stuff because I only have the most basic grasp of the image rules and complexities.Rlevse 16:36, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I will put this in my dispute at that article as well-it's the same reason we put the coat-of-arms on each national article, or every coin in a series on national money pages-the images themselves tell a non-verbal story, about what the Scouts say about themselves. The emblems are every bit as important to the topic as anything else. That's the same reason we have heraldry, even today's corporate branding-the visual depiction that represents a group has all sorts of nested meanings that can't simply be physically described. Chris 18:27, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

That is quite true, to a point. The root problem in Scouting in Spain is that just having those images in a gallery at the end of the article does nothing to enhance the article in and of itself. You need to clearly tie each image to the text of the article in some manner; this would apply even to free images. As it is, it appears that they are in the article purely for decoration. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 15:00, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Point well taken, and in total agreement. The problem was, in each of the national articles, when we _did_ previously have the images married to the individual orgs, for countries where there is more than one org, we were accused of using the images for decoration at that point, but told that a small gallery would be acceptable. We need to come up with a bit in the MoS for this. Chris 18:43, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

That makes no sense to me; can you point me to the talk on that? --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:53, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I wish I could remember where that is parked, as it didn't make any sense to me either, seeing as the larger gallery was deleted. Essentially the gist was, I asked the rabid deletionists, in what form they would leave the images alone, and I was told that a gallery was more acceptable than putting the logos adjacent to the org name in multiple listings. Chris 19:17, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

templates and Scouting WP:MoS

User JQF keeps changing the formatting of Template:InteramericanScout. I understand wanting to align this template with Wiki formats, but I am reverting it again and will keep reverting it, as we specifically made this and related templates to match other Scout boxes, rather than some generic Wiki navbox template. The regional boxes at Category:WikiProject Scouting templates are not meant to be left-justified, or collapsible, to be tucked out-of-the-way, they are not clutter in an article, but part of it. Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Templates doesn't say anything one way or another, but I propose we keep them all the same way, for consistency sake. Chris 07:45, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

The Scouting templates need to be consistent, whatever form that takes, don't change them at all or change all of them. If this becomes more of an issue, it needs to be discussed first. As for the tweaks Jergen made, please have done to all templates in that group.Rlevse

I agree. If we need changes to Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Templates, then please do so, or discuss it on that talk page. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:54, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

mergefrom WikiProject Philmont Scout Ranch

As WikiProject Philmont Scout Ranch seems to have been inactive since the turn of the year, I propose making it a taskforce of this project, similar to the Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Girl Guiding and Girl Scouting task force. That will ensure it won't get deleted (the WP:Council has been cleaning out inactive projects in recent months) and it will standardize that project with our existing MoS and membership base. Chris 07:51, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

That seems sensible if it is inactive. You are right that htere is a purge on inactive Projects. --Bduke 08:33, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I have always considered a subproject of us. I think the task force is a good idea,but I don't know the mechanics of deleting/purging a project. They were very inactive last year too.Rlevse 11:06, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Probably the easiest way would be to set up the task force, notify all editors involved with the project and then put the project to MfD for deletion. The talk page (where incidently I see someone has just replied to a post on 20 December 2005!) could be added to the Scouting Project talk archives. I see nothing on the Philmont Project page that is transcluded except for templates and userboxes. The content would largely be moved to the task force page. --Bduke 11:15, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Instead of a deletion MfD, could the participants not simply be notified, and then move Wikipedia:WikiProject Philmont Scout Ranch into the space Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Philmont Scout Ranch task force? That would keep the edit and move history intact. Chris 19:42, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I have now notified all six listed members, of which, only JohnTex still seems active. I have directed them to this talk. I think it would not be unreasonable to be bold and move this ourselves after a bit of time. Chris 20:21, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Agree. I think a move would be appropriate. --Bduke 22:41, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I think that's a good idea. DarthGriz98 23:11, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Another good idea, i'd say go ahead and be bold. Since the vast majority of the participants appear to be inactive, why don't we save the project before it is deleted.-MBK004 23:20, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I would tend to agree with that, but merging a project, albeit a defunct one, is a major change, so I think we should wait at least a day or two.Rlevse 23:39, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

It's probably best to wait a few days, as you said; but, if none of the listed members are active, there shouldn't be any problems with a unilateral move. Kirill 00:13, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the change would be a good idea. Zybthranger 01:10, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Everyone agrees, so I'm working on this. Chris' idea of just moving the pages and putting the templates and userboxes in with ours is the best.Rlevse 01:26, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm mostly done. See note on announcement section. I asked Gadget850 to incorporate their boxes and templates and Chris to notify project people. Let me know if I missed something.Rlevse 02:06, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I double checked- I had already included the Philmont templates and userboxes in WPS:TEMP and WPS:USER. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 02:56, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I've notified five-including L1am who became user:Leki, and skipped JohnTex, who I am sure by now knows of the move. ;) Chris 07:35, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Template moved from talk pages. — Rebelguys2 ^talk 07:36, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Philmont task force coordinator

Hello, Rlevse asked me if I would be interested in being the coordinator of the Philmont Scout Ranch. I am honored and I would be happy to do it if that is OK with everyone.

My qualifications:

Long-time Scouter

Multiple Philmont treks

Active Wikipedian (2+ years editing, 16,000+ edits, admin bit, one FA)

My anti-qualifications (reasons why someone else may do better than I)

I sometimes have to take unexpected wiki-breaks

Even when I'm on Wikipedia I have a lot of interests so I go off in lots of directions.

I feel like I've contributed some to the Philmont articles but I can't say I've dived into them with two feet.

If selected I will do my best. Johntex\^talk 02:16, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

• Support. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 02:54, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
• Support Chris 03:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
• Support. DarthGriz98 03:05, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
• Support. Doing your best is all anyone can expect.Rlevse 09:59, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
• Support. Zybthranger 21:30, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
• Support. -MBK004 21:33, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
• Support. Kingbird 21:39, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
• File:Crystal Clear app katuberling.png Now you are going to have to do a "disclosure" on the next CfD. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:16, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Rules and standards

Arising from the MfD debate about Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Merging, moving and deleting articles, I propose the following changes to names of and in some of our sub-pages:

• Rename Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/RulesStandards to Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Project editing conventions.
• Change the link to the above in the main info box from "Manual of style" to "Project editing conventions".
• Change the first header of the the above from "WikiProject Scouting Conventions and Guidelines" to "WikiProject Scouting editing conventions".
• Change "WikiProject Scouting Conventions and Guidelines" in the green background box to "WikiProject Scouting editing conventions".

I think I have them all, but you get the point. I believe this will satisfy the concerns raised by that MfD proposal and also that they are indeed better and clearer.--Bduke 23:01, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I can live with this. OK by me.Rlevse 23:48, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

OK by me. I will take this on, but will wait a day or so to gain consensus. This was where I was trying to go, but I don't think the headers were really his hot button. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 00:07, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree about waiting a day or two. --Bduke 00:12, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Looks good to me, and I'd additionally recommend moving that text to a template. Sticking the same header on a dozen pages looks like a template job. >Radiant< 08:20, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I propose that we go ahead at once and make these changes as User:Radiant! is happy and will close the MfD. Do you want me to do it or can you do it, Ed), as you are very familiar with where everything is? I'm happy to assist. --Bduke 09:43, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Ed, Brian, Randy, you guys are gentlemen and I applaud your cool heads. I sit at the feet of the masters. I have to, else I'll never make it when I finally get to Japan. ;) Chris 09:48, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Proposal: If an admin does it, it'll preserve the page histories and such. So my proposal is to let Bduke do it as his first admin job since he's a BRAND NEW ADMIN. See my tools notes here for help: User:Rlevse/Tools and always feel free to ask for help.Rlevse 10:05, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

What step needs an admin? The only step that is not an edit is the first. That is a move, which anyone can do. When I'm clear that I am not mising something, I'll start the process, but I may not get it all done. I'm going to be busy in the next three days. It is eveing here (9.00 p.m.). Tomorrow my wife returns from an overseas trip around noon. Over the weekend I am working on a stall at the museum for Science Week. I may have to leave the rest for Ed. --Bduke 11:13, 16 August 2007 (UTC)