Talk:Swaminarayan and Islam in Malaysia: Difference between pages

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[[Image:UbudiahMosque.JPG|250px|thumb|right|[[Ubudiah Mosque]] is well known mosque in Malaysia, located in [[Kuala Kangsar]].]]
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[[Image:Shah Alam State Mosque.jpg|250px|thumb|[[Sultan Salahuddin Abdul Aziz Mosque]] at [[Shah Alam]], [[Selangor]]. The largest mosque in Malaysia.]]
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[[Islam]] is the official religion of [[Malaysia]], and the Government actively promotes the spread of Islam in the country and its friendship with other Muslim countries. The [[Census]] in [[2000]] show approximately 60.4 percent of the total population are [[Muslims]] in Malaysia.<ref>[http://www.statistics.gov.my/english/frameset_census.php?file=pressdemo] Census : Department of Statistics Malaysia</ref> All [[Malay (ethnic group)|ethnic Malays]] are Muslim (100%) as defined by [[Article 160 of the Constitution of Malaysia]].<ref>Article 160 (2). Constitution of Malaysia.</ref><ref>[http://kcm.co.kr/bethany_eng/p_code3/1892.htm Malay of Malaysia]</ref>, there are also substantial numbers of Indian Muslims and a few numbers of ethnic Chinese [[converts]].{{Fact|date=September 2008}} As required by [[Malaysian law]] and defined in the [[Constitution of Malaysia]], a Malay would surrender his ethnic status if he were not [[Muslim]]. However the reverse is not legally true; one does not legally become a [[Bumiputra]] by converting to Islam.
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A number of young Muslims, especially those from a more [[secular]] or westernized background are [[Cultural Muslim|less-than-practicing Muslims]]. They observe the practice of a holy month ([[Ramadan]]), when fasting during daylight hours is mandatory, and abstain from [[pork]], yet may not pray five times a day nor visit mosques frequently. At the same time, increasing numbers of Malays are becoming more religious, with [[Islamic banking]] and use of the [[Sartorial hijab|tudung]] ([[headscarf]]) in accordance with the laws of [[hijab]] (modesty) becoming increasingly common.


==Islam forms==
{{archive box|auto=yes}}
===Sunni Islam===
{{Islam by country}}
[[Sunni Islam]] of the [[Shafi`i]] school of thought is the official, legal form in Malaysia, although [[Syncretism|syncretist]] Islam with elements of [[Shamanism]] is still common in [[rural]] areas. [[Mosque]]s are an ordinary scene throughout the country and [[adhan]] (call to prayer) from [[minaret]]s are heard [[Salah|five times a day]]. Government bodies and banking institutions are closed for two hours every Friday so Muslims workers can conduct [[Friday prayer]] in mosques. However, in certain rural states such as [[Kelantan]] and [[Terengganu]] the weekends fall on Friday and Saturday instead of Saturday and Sunday. The Malaysian authorities have strict policies against other Islamic sects including [[Shia Islam]].<ref>[http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2001-02/10/article7.shtml "Rights Group Says Six Malaysians Detained For Being Shia Muslims"], ''Islam Online''. Accessed August 13, 2007.</ref> A notable sect that has been outlawed is [[Al-Arqam]].<ref>Morgan, Adrian. [http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?id=6922 "Malaysia: Heretical Islamic cult returns"], ''SperoNews''. Accessed August 13, 2007.</ref>


== User Box ==
===Islam Hadhari===


[[Image:Putrajaya Mosque.JPG|thumb|250px|[[Masjid Putra]] in, Putrajaya]]
For those interested in a Bhagwan Swaminarayan User Box on their User page, add '''{{tlu|User:UBX/Swaminarayan}}''', to your User page.
The term "[[Islam Hadhari]]" ( "Civilizational Islam") is a type of progressive Islam heavily promoted by [[Prime Minister of Malaysia|Malaysian prime minister]] [[Abdullah Ahmad Badawi]] to emphasize the central role of knowledge in Islam. This doctrine espouses a belief in hard work, honesty, good administration and efficiency are equally valued and appeals to Muslims to be inclusive, tolerant and outward-looking.


Islam Hadhari aims to achieve ten main principles:
== More sections needed! ==
#[[Faith]] and piety in [[Allah|God]]
#A just and trustworthy government
#A free and independent people
#Mastery of knowledge
#Balanced and comprehensive economic development
#A good quality of life
#Protection of the rights of minority groups and women
#Cultural and moral integrity
#Environment safeguarding
#Strong defenses


Abdullah Mohd Zain, a minister in the prime minister's department, says, "It emphasizes [[wisdom]], practicality and harmony."{{Fact|date=February 2007}} He added that "It encourages moderation or a balanced approach to life. Yet it does not stray from the fundamentals of the [[Qur'an]] and the example and sayings of the [[Muhammad|Prophet]]."{{Fact|date=February 2007}}
Lord Swaminarayan is a historical person, his life is known in detail, but isn't present in this article. This article need at least 30 sections or more, but only has 5. Devotees of Bhagwan need to provide more information, so that people can form a clear picture of his work. This article as presented does not do Lord Swaminarayan justice, it should be 10x longer, and much more detail needs to be presented. Lord Swaminarayan's life is an open book, it needs to be presented here completely. Jai Swaminarayan. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/68.227.171.33|68.227.171.33]] ([[User talk:68.227.171.33|talk]]) 21:20, August 26, 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


There are however Muslims in Malaysia that disagree with this concept, as the teachings of Islam are already complete and thus, they feel that Islam does not need a new name or face.
== move, again ==


== History ==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:polltop -->
Islam came to Malaysia with the Indian traders from South India and was not of the more orthodox Islamic tradition of Arabia. Islam was adopted peacefully by the coastal trading ports people of Malaysia and Indonesia, absorbing rather than conquering existing beliefs. As in many Muslim countries, Islam in Malaysia has seen a significant revival over the past 10 years or so.
:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. ''


It is wise for visitors to be appropriately discreet in dress and behaviour, particularly on the more strictly Muslim east coast of the peninsula. Malay ceremonies and beliefs still exhibit pre-Islamic traditions, but most Malays are ardent Muslims and to suggest otherwise to a Malay would cause great offence. With the rise of Islamic fundamentalism, the calls to introduce Islamic law and purify the practices of Islam have increased, but while the Government is keen to espouse Muslim ideals, it is wary of religious extremism. The Koran is the main source of religious law for Malays, and though few are proficient in Arabic, all Malay children are sent to learn to read the Koran. Malaysia has an annual Koran-reading competition, and passages of the Koran are read in Arabic at many Malay ceremonies.<ref>[http://www.asia-planet.net/malaysia/religion.htm Asia Planet]</ref>
The result of the proposal was '''no consensus''' on best choice to move article to. [[User:JPG-GR|JPG-GR]] ([[User talk:JPG-GR|talk]]) 17:22, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


It is commonly held that Islam first exists in Malay peninsular since Sultan Muzaffar Shah I (12th century) of Kedah was the first ruler to be known to convert to Islam since introduced to Islam by [[Rowther]] and [[Marakkar]]. In the 13th century, the [[Terengganu Stone Monument]] was found at [[Kuala Berang]], [[Terengganu]] where the first Malay state to receive Islam in [[1303]] Sultan Megat Iskandar Shah, known as [[Parameswara]] prior to his conversion, is the first [[Malacca Sultanate|Sultan of Melaka]]. He converted into Islam after marrying a princess from [[Pasai]], of present day [[Indonesia]]. The conversion of the [[Sultanate of Malacca]] by [[Rowther]] and [[Marakkar]] traders from [[Tamil Nadu]] into Islam is the milestone of Islamification of Malay people in Malaysia.
The move was not resolved, and the current title is unacceptable. Please vote clearly on the following two page titles.
#'''Sahajanand Swami'''
#'''Swaminarayan'''
The second name is used in Williams book[http://www.amazon.com/dp/052165422X], which I consider the only reliable third party source used in the article. I haven't seen any sources use Sahajanand Swami, so I suggest that you provide a source if you propose that title. Either would be acceptable to me. [[User:Cuñado|<font color="#AF7817">'''Cuñado'''</font>]] ☼ - [[User talk:Cuñado|<font size="-3">Talk</font>]] 18:44, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
:I would consider these reliable sources


The ''tudung'' is a relatively recent introduction and was not prominent until the rise of worldwide [[Islam]] in the 1970s. Some commentators have found it jarring to see Malay women donning the ''tudung'' and at the same time wearing tight-fitting [[T-shirt]]s.
:::: [http://books.google.com/books?id=-2I9AAAAIAAJ&q=Sahajanand+Swami&dq=Sahajanand+Swami&pgis=1]
:::: [http://books.google.com/books?id=xYNhAAAAIAAJ&q=Sahajanand+Swami&dq=Sahajanand+Swami&pgis=1]
:::: [http://books.google.com/books?id=nkVBOfE1KkAC&pg=PA58&dq=Sahajanand+Swami&sig=1j7ZPu4zyWpoxd7s9RkgEDYh7TE]
:::: [http://books.google.com/books?id=Lyd8jPbN218C&pg=PA241&dq=Sahajanand+Swami&sig=8QzkcTfrgn2YfZjrc2-mqvS1d2I]


===Early Chinese Muslims===
: Also probably an important resource is, especially considering that this is Encyclopedia and we need to distinguish between the names for easy separation to critical terms and disambiguation:
The national census 2000 shows the number of Chinese Muslims at more than 57000. The Chinese Muslims also known as [[Hui]] have had a long history in this region spanning at least 600 years, not only in today’s Malaysia, but the whole of the then Malay World. They came from [[China]] and settled during the 15th century, to the thousands of Chinese who converted into Islam, the presence and contribution of the Chinese Muslims have unfortunately not been recognized enough by Malaysian historians, scholars and politicians. [http://210.0.141.99/eng/malaysia/ChineseMuslim_in_Malaysia.asp]
: A Place at the Multicultural Table: The Development of an American Hinduismby Prema A. Kurien
: 2007


Indonesian Islamic scholar [[Hamka]] wrote in 1961:
: <div>[http://books.google.com/books?id=ONMxZc5_saYC&pg=PA51&vq=Sahajanand+Swami&dq=Sahajanand+Swami&source=gbs_search_s&sig=05D6r5-cApZspSn19d5QnAQktXo Page 51 ]
{{cquote|''The development of Islam in Indonesia and Malaya is intimately related to a Chinese Muslim, Admiral [[Zheng He]]''.}}
: '''...''' neo-Hindu reform Gujarati sect that was founded in the nineteenth century by '''Sahajanand Swami''', believed by his followers to be an incarnation of Vishnu. '''...'''</div><div>[http://books.google.com/books?id=ONMxZc5_saYC&pg=PA101&vq=Sahajanand+Swami&dq=Sahajanand+Swami&source=gbs_search_s&sig=Fkyp46V7HL7ZLun7pQos77EgNSc Page 101 ]
: Unlike most traditional Hindu groups, the Swaminarayan sampradaya (religious tradition) has a founder, '''Sahajanand Swami''' (1781-1830), whom devotees worship '''...'''</div><div>[http://books.google.com/books?id=ONMxZc5_saYC&pg=PA104&vq=Sahajanand+Swami&dq=Sahajanand+Swami&source=gbs_search_s&sig=U2E5RigEFYVGCzsOa8-Di78zN9Q Page 104 ]
: Origins The Swaminarayan sect was founded in Gujarat in 1801 by '''Sahajanand Swami''' during a period of terrible natural disasters (famines and an earthquake) '''...'''</div>


Parlindungan Mangaradja Onggang pointed out that when the Ming Dynasty’s fleet stopped in [[Semarang]], [[Zheng He]], Ma Huan and Fei Xin often went to the mosque to pray.
: Swaminarayan is the name of religion. On this basis I vote for
{{cquote|''Under the influence of Zheng He between 1411-1416, in the Malay Peninsula, [[Java]], [[Sumatra]], and the [[Philippines]], there developed many Chinese Muslim areas, and many mosques were built.''}}
: '''Sahajanand Swami''' --<span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:Wikidas|Wikidās ॐ]]</span> 20:05, 17 May 2008 (UTC)


Indonesian scholar Slamet Muljana wrote:
'''Swaminarayan''' - it is the name hes known by the world over. [[User:Wheredevelsdare|AroundTheGlobe]] ([[User talk:Wheredevelsdare|talk]]) 20:07, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
{{cquote|''Zheng He built Chinese Muslim communities first in [[Palembang]] and then in San Fa ([[West Kalimantan]]), subsequently he built same kind of communities along the shores of Java, the Malay Peninsula and the Philippines. They propagated the Islamic faith according to the [[Hanafi]] sect and in Chinese language.''}}
:Not exactly, maybe the Swaminarayan Sampraday, but BAPS and others use both names (equally) [[User:Juthani1|<span style="color:#ffffff;background:#ccf">&nbsp;<span style="background:#99f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#66f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#11f"><b>Juthani1</b></span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>]]<sup>[[User talk: Juthani1|t]][[Special:Contributions/Juthani1|c]][[User:Juthani1/Guest Book|s]] </sup> 02:58, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
:I support '''Sahajanand Swami''', BHagwan/ Lord Swaminarayan redirects here anyway [[User:Juthani1|<span style="color:#ffffff;background:#ccf">&nbsp;<span style="background:#99f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#66f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#11f"><b>Juthani1</b></span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>]]<sup>[[User talk: Juthani1|t]][[Special:Contributions/Juthani1|c]][[User:Juthani1/Guest Book|s]] </sup> 02:58, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


Li Tong Cai, in his book Indonesia – Legends and Facts’, wrote:
: '''Comment''' By world over I dint mean in devotee circles, but generally around the world, among Hindus, non Hindus etc. [[User:AroundTheGlobe|AroundTheGlobe]] ([[User talk:AroundTheGlobe|talk]]) 14:27, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
{{cquote|''in 1430, Zheng He had already successfully established the foundations of the Hui religion. After his death in 1434, Haji Yan Ying Yu became the force behind the Chinese Muslim community. He delegated a few local Chinese as leaders, such as Sun Long, a trader from Semarang, and Peng Rui He and Haji Peng De Qin. Sun Long and Peng Rui He actively urged the Chinese community to ‘Javanise’. They encouraged the younger Chinese generation to assimilate with the Javanese society, to take on Javanese names and their way of life. Sun Long’s adopted son Chen Wen, also named Radin Pada is the son of King Majapahit and his Chinese wife.''}}


Tan Yeok Seong, in the book Journal of the South Seas Society wrote:
:Swaminarayan needs to redirect to the disambig page for all of the results or else there is no purpose for that either. Also, Bhagwan/Lord/etc Swaminarayan will reidrect here. [[User:Juthani1|<span style="color:#ffffff;background:#ccf">&nbsp;<span style="background:#99f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#66f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#11f"><b>Juthani1</b></span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>]]<sup>[[User talk: Juthani1|t]][[Special:Contributions/Juthani1|c]][[User:Juthani1/Guest Book|s]] </sup> 23:32, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
{{cquote|''The early settlements were peopled by Chinese Muslims who had created a sphere of influence for themselves with the co-operation of Zheng He. Religion and trade then went hand in hand. Through Islam, the Muslims, in spite of their racial differences, became masters of trade. On the other hand, successful maritime trade helped to spread Islamisation. The Chinese settlers of this period were pioneers of both these enterprises. They had been Muslims and had established for themselves Islamic settlements at important trade centres, such as Palembang and [[Gresik]]. From these centres a process of converting the indigenous people was begun.''}}


===Death of Zheng He===
:On all major pages where a page signifies something most, the article is on tht (For eg. Gandhi redirects to Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi with a line on the top mentioning tht for other Gandhi articles there is a disambig page). This theory can be applied here. [[User: AroundTheGlobe|ATG]] <sup> [[User talk:AroundTheGlobe|t]] </sup> 14:44, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
After the death of Zheng He, the Ming Chinese naval expeditions were suspended. The Hanafi Islam that Zheng He and his people propagated lost almost all contact with Islam in China and gradually was totally absorbed by the local Shafi’i sect. When Melaka was colonised by the Portuguese, the Dutch, and later the British, the Chinese community were discouraged to convert into Islam. Many of the Chinese Muslim mosques became Zheng He temples (San bao) to commemorate Zheng He. The influence of Chinese Muslims in Malacca declined to almost nil. [http://210.0.141.99/eng/malaysia/ChineseMuslim_in_Malaysia.asp]


==Cultural role==
:I understand that, but the disambig page will eventually redirect to the Sahajanand Swami page anyway. ANd again if we do this there is no need for the disambig page. Swaminarayan can mean different things. Lord/Bhagwan Swaminarayan redirects here anyway [[User:Juthani1|<span style="color:#ffffff;background:#ccf">&nbsp;<span style="background:#99f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#66f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#11f"><b>Juthani1</b></span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>]]<sup>[[User talk: Juthani1|t]][[Special:Contributions/Juthani1|c]][[User:Juthani1/Guest Book|s]] </sup> 14:47, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
[[Image:Malaysian girls.jpg|thumb|300px|The ''tudung'' is very commonly worn by Malay women.]]
Islam is central to and dominant in Malay culture. A significant number of words in the Malay vocabulary can trace their origins to [[Arabic language|Arabic]] which is the chosen language of Islam. This is, however, not exclusive and words from other cultures such as [[Portuguese language|Portuguese]], [[Chinese language|Chinese]], [[Dutch language|Dutch]], [[Sanskrit language|Sanskrit]], [[Tamil language|Tamil]], [[English language|English]], and [[French language|French]] can also be found in the Malay language. Islam is so ingrained in Malay life that Islamic rituals are practiced as Malay culture. Muslim and Malays are interchangeable in many daily contexts.


[[Hari Raya Aidilfitri]] ([[Eid ul-Fitr]]) is an important festival celebrated by Malaysian Muslims.
We have a consensus, 3 support, 1 oppose. [[User:Cuñado|<font color="#AF7817">'''Cuñado'''</font>]] ☼ - [[User talk:Cuñado|<font size="-3">Talk</font>]] 23:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


The interpretation of Islam in Malaysia is relatively liberal in contrast to the popular conception of Islamic nations. Muslim women generally wear the ''tudung'' ([[hijab]] or headscarf) over their heads. These tudungs do not cover the face. Malay women not wearing any head gear are not reprimanded or penalised. Prominent Malaysian female examples are Datuk Seri [[Rafidah Aziz]], International Trade and Industry Minister and Tun Dr Siti Hasmah Mohd Ali, wife of former Malaysian Prime Minister [[Mahathir Mohammad|Tun Dr Mahathir bin Mohammad]]. However, with the influx of Arabic travellers, foreign Muslim women ([[Arabs]]) wearing [[hijab]] that leave only their eyes exposed are often spotted in tourist attractions, not the least at the shopping malls. At certain Malaysian institutions such as the [[International Islamic University]], wearing of the tudung is mandatory; however for non-Muslim students this usually amounts to a loosely worn piece of cloth draped over the back of the head.
Actually don't do it yet. A few people may still not favor this move. I actually am now thinking, after discussion with [[User:Wheredevelsdare]], that maybe Sahajanand Swami isn't the best route to go


The ''tudung'', or the hijab, is a symbol of a Muslim woman. This is such because it represents the modesty of a woman's way, as described by the religion.
Reason- Sahajanand Swami is common but only with his followers, certain wikipedians including myself weren't thinking from the Point of View of the public. I think going back to Bhagwan Swaminarayan is the best route to take. Swaminarayan alone cna't be used since it has multiple defintitions. ''See [[Swaminarayan]]'' Lord Swaminarayan can't be use ''refer to discussion above'' w/ wikipedias policy of using Lord. I don't think there is anything wrong with using POV in the title as long as the name is most well known and most commonly used. There are many article like this.
I propose that the artilce be moved back to '''Bhagwan Swaminarayan''' [[User:Juthani1|<span style="color:#ffffff;background:#ccf">&nbsp;<span style="background:#99f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#66f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#11f"><b>Juthani1</b></span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>]]<sup>[[User talk: Juthani1|t]][[Special:Contributions/Juthani1|c]][[User:Juthani1/Guest Book|s]] </sup> 03:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


Some find the ''tudung'' to be an indication of Arabic influence in Malay Muslim culture, and point to other incidents such as the banning of the traditional Malay ''[[wayang kulit]]'' in the state of [[Kelantan]] (which is ruled by the [[Islamist]] [[Islamic Party of Malaysia|PAS]]) for being "un-Islamic". <ref>Kent, Jonathan (Aug. 6, 2005). [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4749379.stm "Malaysia's clash of cultures"]. ''[[BBC]]''.</ref>
:'''Comment''' Now with Juthani1 backing out, there is no clear majority for any name - Redtigerxyz and myself have voted for ''Swaminarayan'' and Cunando and Wikidas ''Sahajanand Swami'' - and Juthani1 has given a third option - moving back. In this scenario I think we should wait further to get a consensis on the issue. [[User: AroundTheGlobe|ATG]] <sup> [[User talk:AroundTheGlobe|Contact]] </sup> 15:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
::My main consideration was that it is not his name but the name of the religion, however he had a name Narayan Swami, so if Juthani supports your move (and provided there is a clear disambiguation page and link over it) I would not be set in stone on it and we can call it a consensus. I guess its all up to Juthani, if Juthani confirms that Swaminarayan is fine as the name of the article we have a consensus. <span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:Wikidas|Wikidās]][[Special:Contributions/Wikidas|-]][[User talk:Wikidas|ॐ]]</span> 19:16, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


In general, males and females can mix easily like any other liberal Western countries. However, desiring to expose the body and intimacy such as [[kissing]] is still rare among Muslims in public. In conservative states where PAS has more influence, such as Kelantan, different genders are at least theoretically segregated in public places like the [[Movie theater|cinema]] and [[supermarket]].
Swaminarayan is ok and a lot better than Sahajanand Swami (after careful thinking), but is not specific enough. Is there anything against having POV in the title according to wikipedia guidelines? If not '''Bhagwan Swaminrayan''' (with bhagwan) is the best route to take since it is specific. But the article should stay as is. Te intro should start out as Sahjanand Swami.... [[User:Juthani1|<span style="color:#ffffff;background:#ccf">&nbsp;<span style="background:#99f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#66f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#11f"><b>Juthani1</b></span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>]]<sup>[[User talk: Juthani1|t]][[Special:Contributions/Juthani1|c]][[User:Juthani1/Guest Book|s]] </sup> 20:15, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
::<s>Okay that means we have a consensus. We all favor the no2. Two of us conditional on it.</s> '''Swaminarayan''' It will be obvious that its a person and not a religion (even I'm still confused about it:-) <span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:Wikidas|Wikidās]][[Special:Contributions/Wikidas|-]][[User talk:Wikidas|ॐ]]</span> 20:20, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


==Political position==
Swaminarayan can be a follower of Sahajanand Swami and many other things. See the disambiguation page [[Swaminarayan]]. What's wrong with '''Bhagwan Swaminarayan''' [[User:Juthani1|<span style="color:#ffffff;background:#ccf">&nbsp;<span style="background:#99f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#66f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#11f"><b>Juthani1</b></span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>]]<sup>[[User talk: Juthani1|t]][[Special:Contributions/Juthani1|c]][[User:Juthani1/Guest Book|s]] </sup> 20:24, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
===UMNO's committee in mosque===
Tan Sri [[Abdul Khalid Ibrahim]], the 14th chief minister of the state of [[Selangor]] said "We want mosques to carry out more activities for the Muslims. Unfortunately, [[UMNO]] (political party) only want to put their men in the administration of mosques. This is absurd,". He said he wants to replace mosque committees to reduce political interference. "We must remember, the Sultan of Selangor in his every speech has stressed against using mosques for political purposes and His Highness has been consistent in stating his views" [http://www.bernama.com.my/bernama/v3/news.php?id=343589]


===Politics and religion is mixed together===
If there is no POV issue the best best option would be to go bak to '''Bhagwan Swaminarayan'''.<strong>[[User:AroundTheGlobe|<span style="font-family:Script MT Bold;color:DarkBlue">Around The Globe</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:AroundTheGlobe|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Gray">Contact</span></sup>]] 22:40, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:pollbottom -->


Political aspects of Islam are derived from the Quran, the Sunna, Muslim history and sometimes elements of political movements outside Islam.
== Name and start in the article ==


Traditional political concepts in Islam include leadership by successors to the Prophet known as Caliphs, (Imamate for Shia); the importance of following Islamic law or Sharia; the duty of rulers to seek Shura or consultation from their subjects; and the importance of rebuking unjust rulers but not encouraging rebellion against them.A sea change in the Islamic world was the abolition of the Ottoman caliphate in 1924, which some believed meant an end to the Islamic state both in "symbolic and practice terms".
;The current article suggests:


This show the reason about politics and religion should be mixed together
'''Sahajanand Swami''' ([[IAST]] - ''{{IAST|Bhagavān Svāmīnārāyaṇa}}'') ([[April 2]], [[1781]] - [[1830]])<ref name="Williams">{{harvnb|Williams|2001|}}</ref> or ''Bhagwan Swaminarayan'' (i.e. Lord Swaminarayan)


===Definition of Malay===
;It should really be:
As defined by the [[constitution of Malaysia]], Malays must be Muslim, regardless of their ethnic heritage; otherwise, legally, they are not Malay. Consequently, apostate Malays would have to forfeit all their constitutional privileges, including their [[Bumiputra]] status, which entitles them to [[affirmative action]] policies in university admissions, discounts on purchases of vehicles or real estate, etc. It is legally possible to become a Malay if a non-Malay citizen with a Malaysian parent converts to Islam and thus claim all the [[Bumiputra]] privileges granted by [[Article 153 of the Constitution of Malaysia|Article 153 of the Constitution]] and the [[Malaysian New Economic Policy|New Economic Policy]] (NEP), etc. However, the convert must "habitually speak the Malay language" and adhere to Malay culture. A textbook for tertiary Malaysian studies following the government-approved syllabus states: "This explains the fact that when a non-Malay embraces Islam, he is said to ''masuk Melayu'' (become a Malay). That person is automatically assumed to be fluent in the Malay language and to be living like a Malay as a result of his close association with the Malays." <ref>Shuid, Mahdi & Yunus, Mohd. Fauzi (2001). ''Malaysian Studies'', p. 55. Longman. ISBN 983-74-2024-3.</ref>


Islam in Malaysia is thus closely associated with the Malay people, something an Islamic scholar has criticised, saying that Malaysian Islam is "still clothed in communal garb; that Muslims in Malaysia have yet to understand what the universal spirit of Islam means in reality."<ref>Wu, Min Aun & Hickling, R. H. (2003). ''Hickling's Malaysian Public Law'', p. 98. Petaling Jaya: Pearson Malaysia. ISBN 983-74-2518-0.</ref>
'''Sahajanand Swami'''([[Gujarati language|Gujarati]]: ???,) ([[April 2]], [[1781]]–[[?? Month]] [[1830]]) also known as '''Bhagavan Svaminarayana'''([[IAST]] - ''{{IAST|Bhagavān Svāmīnārāyaṇa}}'')<ref name="Williams">{{harvnb|Williams|2001|}}</ref> or ''Bhagwan Swaminarayan'', ''Lord Swaminarayan'',


===Sharia legal system===
Good example is [[Gandhi]]'s page. <span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:Wikidas|Wikidās]][[Special:Contributions/Wikidas|-]][[User talk:Wikidas|ॐ]]</span> 13:07, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Parallel to the civil courts, there are [[Sharia]] courts which conduct legal matters related to religious (Islam) and (Muslim) family issues. Legal issues like Muslim divorce and Muslim [[apostasy]] are conducted in the ''[[Syariah Court]]''. Non-Muslims are not affected by this.


===Official religion===
Agree with Wikidas, however along with Gujarati, name should also be displayed in devnagiri. <strong>[[User:AroundTheGlobe|<span style="font-family:Script MT Bold;color:DarkBlue">Around The Globe</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:AroundTheGlobe|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Gray">Contact</span></sup>]] 16:05, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
[[Image:MosqueJamek.jpg|300px|thumb|right|[[Masjid Jamek]] is one of the most recognizable mosques in Malaysia.]]
Nine of the Malaysian states, namely [[Kelantan]], [[Terengganu]], [[Pahang]], [[Kedah]], [[Perak]], [[Perlis]], [[Selangor]], [[Johor]] and [[Negeri Sembilan]] have constitutional Malay monarchs (most of them styled as Sultans). These Malay rulers still maintain authority over religious affairs in states. The states of [[Penang]], [[Malacca]], [[Sarawak]] and [[Sabah]] do not have any sultan, but the king ([[Yang di-Pertuan Agong]]) play the role of heads of Islam in those states as well as the [[Federal Territory|Federal Territories]] of [[Kuala Lumpur]], [[Labuan]] and [[Putrajaya]].


Originally, the draft [[Constitution of Malaysia]] did not specify any official religion for the state. This move was supported by the rulers of the nine Malay states, who felt that it was sufficient that Islam was the official religion of each of their individual states. However, Justice [[Abdul Hamid]] of the [[Reid Commission]] which drafted the Constitution came out strongly in favour of making Islam the official religion, and as a result the final Constitution named Islam as the official religion of Malaysia.<ref>Wu & Hickling, pp. 19, 75.</ref>
:I agree [[User:Juthani1|<span style="color:#ffffff;background:#ccf">&nbsp;<span style="background:#99f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#66f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#11f"><b>Juthani1</b></span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>]]<sup>[[User talk: Juthani1|t]][[Special:Contributions/Juthani1|c]][[User:Juthani1/Guest Book|s]] </sup> 19:29, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Can you insert Gujarati letters above please? I can not do that... illiterate in Gujarati, devanagari can be for both of course.
<span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:Wikidas|Wikidās]][[Special:Contributions/Wikidas|-]][[User talk:Wikidas|ॐ]]</span> 21:35, 5 June 2008 (UTC) What I mean, is that if there is someone who can write in Gujjarati, please do write his name in that script so that it can be pasted in the article, please. <span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:Wikidas|Wikidās ॐ]]</span> 23:04, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


As the religion embraced by the most populous ethnic class of Malaysia, Islam plays an important part in Malaysian politics. Islam is seen by the Malay as a subject which can not be challenged conventionally or constitutionally.


The newest format of the Malaysian Identity Card (''[[MyKad]]'') divides Malaysians into various religious groups, i.e. Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist. The introduction of this card caused an uproar in Malaysian politics and is deemed discriminative by non-Muslims. This issue has, however, since abated and been accepted (although unwillingly) by non-Muslims.
== Articles Name ==


Currently, one of the Malaysia's states, [[Kelantan]], is governed by PAS which is a conservative Islamic [[political party]], with a proclaimed goal of establishing an [[Islamic state]]. Terengganu was briefly ruled by PAS from 1999 to 2004, but the ruling [[Barisan Nasional]] coalition has since won back the state. To counter Islamic fundamentalism as supported by PAS, the head of the Barisan Nasional, Datuk Seri [[Abdullah Badawi]], has proposed Islam Hadhari.
It has been narrowed down to


There is also an Islamic [[university]] in Malaysia called the [[International Islamic University Malaysia]], and a government institution in charge of organizing pilgrimages to [[Mecca]] called [[Tabung Haji]] (Pilgrim Fund Board of Malaysia). In addition to this, the government also funds the construction of [[mosque]]s and ''[[surau]]s''. <ref name="tunku">Putra, Tunku Abdul Rahman (1986). ''Political Awakening'', p. 105. Pelanduk Publications. ISBN 967-978-136-4.</ref>
# '''Bhagwan Swaminarayan''' or '''Bhagavan Swaminarayan'''- further disscusion will determine which one
# '''Sahajanand Swami'''


Although the constitution declares Malaysia to be a secular state, there is much confusion on this subject. Several Muslims have argued, especially after former [[Prime Minister of Malaysia|Prime Minister]] [[Mahathir bin Mohamad]]'s declaration that Malaysia is an Islamic state, that Malaysia is in fact an Islamic state. One Member of [[Parliament of Malaysia|Parliament]] (MP), [[Badruddin Amiruldin|Badruddin bin Amiruldin]], has stated in the [[Dewan Rakyat]] house of Parliament that "Malaysia ini negara Islam" ("Malaysia is an Islamic state") and that "you tidak suka, you keluar dari Malaysia!" ("You don't like it, you get out of Malaysia!") Badruddin refused to retract his statement, and a motion to refer him to the House Committee of Privileges was rejected by a [[voice vote]].<ref>[http://www.parlimen.gov.my/Hansard/2005/DR11072005.pdf "Dewan Rakyat Hansard for 11 July 2005"].</ref> However, the first Prime Minister, [[Tunku Abdul Rahman]], contradicted this stance in the 1980s, saying, "All talk on Islamic States is just an empty dream. No man in his right sense would accept a nation which bases its political administration on religion, and in a country like Malaysia with its multiracial and multireligious people, there is no room for an Islamic State." <ref name="tunku"/> In 1988, the courts rejected the argument that Malaysia was a theocratic state.<ref>Wu & Hickling, p. 35.</ref>
I support '''Bhagwan Swaminarayan'''. It's more universal term. Members of the sect know who Sahajanand Swami is, but not outsiders. [[User:Juthani1|<span style="color:#ffffff;background:#ccf">&nbsp;<span style="background:#99f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#66f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#11f"><b>Juthani1</b></span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>]]<sup>[[User talk: Juthani1|t]][[Special:Contributions/Juthani1|c]][[User:Juthani1/Guest Book|s]] </sup> 15:49, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


[[Image:National mosque, Malaysia.JPG|thumb|right|300px|[[Masjid Negara]], the National Mosque of Malaysia.]]
== Redirect for Sri Sampradaya ==
Despite the Federal Government's denial that Malaysia is an Islamic state, the present Badawi Administration have gradually furthered the agenda of Islamic supremacy at the expense of other races and religions. The spread of Christianity is a particular sore point for the Muslim majority, and as such, the Government (despite being of a plural composition, but the Malay component, UMNO, always has the final say) typically drags its feet when it comes to approving Churches, and often they will disapprove the setting up of Churches outright. In some cases, they have even resorted to demolishing churches in Muslim-majority areas, and setting up mosques in Muslim-minority areas. The Malaysian government has also persecuted Christian groups who were perceived to be attempting to proselytize to Muslim audiences<ref>[http://www.unhchr.ch/Huridocda/Huridoca.nsf/f247c38438f0ddcdc12569910037e669/b3a68ec4f3620b48802567a7005758da?OpenDocument Report by the Special Rapporteur on the<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref>.


In 2004 and 2005, the government caused an uproar within the Chinese community by closing down and demolishing some ancient Chinese temples in Chinese-majority areas. In as recent as June 2006<ref>[http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/52732 Tensions grow over Hindu temple demolitions<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref>, the government has demolished more than 30 Hindu temples (in Hindu majority areas) that it said were built illegally. Indian leaders pointed out, however, that many of the temples dated back to British colonial rule, and the Malay government failed to legalize those temples after independence in 1957. While the non-Muslim public suspects that there is a behind the scene systematic elimination of non-Muslim religious rights in Malaysia by Islamic supremacists within the Government, the Government itself has repeatedly denied this. In 2007, the Malyasian government, in a move to ease ethnic tensions, unveiled an initiative to protect the remaining Hindu temples <ref>[http://realtime.com/realtime_news/rt_world_news/rt_asia-pacific/17762906_malaysia_to_protect_hindu_temples____.html?pageid=nandu.category-leaf&pageregion=A3 Malaysia to Protect Hindu Temples - RealTime<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref>.
Redirect for [[Ramanuja sampradaya]] was pointing to this page. I have changed it to [[Sri Sampradaya]] as it supposed to be. Obviously there is no claim that
Sahajanand Swami is the sole representative of Ramanuja or only follows his teachings. Ramanuja would never accept a notion of a [[jiva]] becoming [[Narayana]]. <span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:Wikidas|Wikidās ॐ]]</span> 13:40, 28 June 2008 (UTC)


The government has claimed that the practitioners of other faiths are a minority compared to the Muslim population. However, surveys have consistently shown that there is still an insufficient number of churches and temples available for use by non-Muslims, compared to Muslim places of worship (such as mosques and suraus) that are everywhere whether there is a sizable Muslim population or not. Furthermore, the financing for the construction of temples and churches are seldom state-sponsored. In almost all cases, the construction or setting-up of non-Muslim places of worship are financed privately by the devotees themselves. This is in stark contrast to Muslim places of worship, which are built with public funds. The government has also given non-Muslims a hard time setting up their churches and temples despite the fact that these will be privately-financed on privately-owned land.
== Undues ==


At the same time, the Malaysian authorities typically have a pro-Muslim bias when it comes to demographic data, and they also do not justify the construction of mosques in places where it is not needed. Local housing bylaws require that the housing developer construct mosques in every new housing area regardless of the racial and religious demographics. Furthermore, the figures for the rate of conversion to Islam are not very clear as many apostates do not bother registering with the Shariah Court for apostasy (since they are legally not allowed to leave the religion), and instead they just stop being practicing Muslims. Therefore, figures on the Muslim population of Malaysia are generally highly unreliable, as can be seen in the high number of pending apostasy applications (see below).
[[WP:UNDUE]] to
* Paramahansas vcan be removed as not about the person. Suggestion : form new article.
* Succession can be shortened. Only the direct succession to the person needs to be discussed.--[[User:Redtigerxyz|Redtigerxyz]] ([[User talk:Redtigerxyz|talk]]) 08:46, 20 July 2008 (UTC)


There is a '''National Fatwa Council''', as part of the '''Department of Islamic Advancement of Malaysia''' ('''''Jabatan Kemajuan Islam Malaysia''''', '''JAKIM''').
:Re the above - the Paramhansas were close confidants of Swaminarayan, and were higly responsible for spreding his philosophy, hence they need to be mentioned. Can u pl. give further details on how u think the Succession section needs to look? I am a bit confused on tht atm. <strong>[[User:AroundTheGlobe|<span style="font-family:Script MT Bold;color:DarkBlue">Around The Globe</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:AroundTheGlobe|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Gray">सत्यमेव जयते</span></sup>]] 17:02, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
:: Though [[Paramhansas of Swaminarayan faith]] are his close associates, their info is UNDUE here as they are significant individuals in their own right. Their names may be mentioned, but other info can be put in another article.--[[User:Redtigerxyz|Redtigerxyz]] ([[User talk:Redtigerxyz|talk]]) 14:57, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
::: Only Swaminarayan Sampraday discusses the direct succession. BAPSis established in 1907, long after the death of Swaminarayan, so can be mentioned in passing reference as "Due to disputes in succession, split as:"--[[User:Redtigerxyz|Redtigerxyz]] ([[User talk:Redtigerxyz|talk]]) 15:06, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


==Apostasy from Islam in Malaysia==
:::: I do not have an issue with any of the above. However, the present concensus has been reached after a long period of edit wars. Please be sure that your edits do not spark off another round of edit wars. <strong>[[User:AroundTheGlobe|<span style="font-family:Script MT Bold;color:DarkBlue">Around The Globe</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:AroundTheGlobe|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Gray">सत्यमेव जयते</span></sup>]] 17:10, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
{{Main|Status of religious freedom in Malaysia}}
:No need to threaten others with edit wars. I agree that they should be shortened, question how much. Better use<nowiki> {{main|</nowiki> template for the article on them and have summary here. <span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:Wikidas|Wikidās ॐ]]</span> 17:21, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
In recent years this topic has started to create a debate within Malay society and politics. The most documented case was that of the [[Sky Kingdom]] which was seen as the litmus test for religious freedom.
: I did not intend to threaten anyone - I just wanted to make sure that people are aware of the situation - pl. tk a look at the edit history of the page and u will no the amt of edit wars tht hv taken pl over time on this page. <strong>[[User:AroundTheGlobe|<span style="font-family:Script MT Bold;color:DarkBlue">Around The Globe</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:AroundTheGlobe|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Gray">सत्यमेव जयते</span></sup>]] 13:44, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
::I am sure you are well intentioned and you have been one of the main contributors to the article. We are not proposing to remove it completely, but rather to proportionately reduce it so it will not be [[WP:UNDUE]]. I am sure you will agree with it, since there is a separate article on the subject anyhow. <span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:Wikidas|Wikidās ॐ]]</span> 15:34, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
::: Let me come clear here. I earlier said I had no problems with all these proposed edits - whether its to do with Paramhansas (where I mentioned that they need to be mentioned - if u want to shorten the paras - go ahead) or BAPS. What I was trying to avoid was another Sampraday - BAPS edit war. Im a member of the Sampraday and would have no problems with the removal of info from BAPS or any other sep. group section - but this would cauz an edit war as Im sure members of these groups would not take this well. <strong>[[User:AroundTheGlobe|<span style="font-family:Script MT Bold;color:DarkBlue">Around The Globe</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:AroundTheGlobe|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Gray">सत्यमेव जयते</span></sup>]] 11:10, 27 July 2008 (UTC)


Head of the Malaysian State of Perak Mufti (religious head) Dato' Seri Haji [[Harussani Zakaria]] announced that there are about 65,500 Muslim apostates in Malaysia in 2005. This figure includes about 10,000 Malay Muslims who have declared themselves Christians. This announcement was made on a TV Forum entitled "Pekerti Islam" in the Malaysian State of Kedah recently which was aired by RTM (Malaysian TV & Radio Department) in April 2006. Another 300,000 Muslims are in the process of filing for apostasy while the rest are filing to have their Muslim name changed to "other religion name."
Things like "Gunatitanand Swami was a prominent saint who gave valuable contribution for spreading of the Swaminarayan Sampraday. He was the Mahant Swami (head) of the Junagadh Temple for over 40 years. His loyalty to Swaminaryan can be judged by the following words from the book, Swami ni vato that he authored." are completely UNDUE. There is NOT a comment about Swaminarayan in the this text and a separate article covers the person in question. A passing reference to the Paramhansas is enough, IMO.--[[User:Redtigerxyz|Redtigerxyz]] ([[User talk:Redtigerxyz|talk]]) 09:49, 27 July 2008 (UTC)


It has been argued that the true number of apostates is much lower, and that the 650,500 figure is an exaggeration. One academic has said that only five hundred Muslims between 1994 and 2003 applied to the Syariah Courts to renounce their status as a Muslim, while about 7500 applied to the National Registration Department (NRD) to change a Muslim name to a non-Muslim one. Reportedly, five states ([[Perak]], [[Malacca]], [[Sabah]], [[Terengganu]], and [[Pahang]]) have made apostasy from Islam a criminal offense.<ref>Selvarani, P. (Nov. 19, 2006). [http://malaysia-today.net/blog2006/newsncom.php?itemid=840 Very few have abandoned the faith]. ''New Straits Times''.</ref>
== Bigger G ==


==See also==
I was wondering if its a common thing in this particular branch of [[Hinduism]] to clearly distinguish between [[Christian God]] and [[Hindu]] god as two completely different things. Are there sources to confirm this philosophical point of view? What it means and how you suggest it should be addressed. Normally [[God]] is used to even manifold, as in '''Gods'''. What is the view of respected assembly of editors, as I can see some minor edit war on the subject, so consensus would be a nice things to have... <span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:Wikidas|Wikidās ॐ]]</span> 09:22, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
*[[Religion in Malaysia]]
*[[Status of religious freedom in Malaysia]]


==Notes==
: When used in polytheistic sense, like the pantheon of '''g'''ods (NOT Gods), g is used. In monotheistic sense, one '''G'''od, G is used.--[[User:Redtigerxyz|Redtigerxyz]] ([[User talk:Redtigerxyz|talk]]) 09:27, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
{{reflist}}
: for more, see [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Religions.2C_deities.2C_philosophies.2C_doctrines_and_their_adherents]], Honorifics.--[[User:Redtigerxyz|Redtigerxyz]] ([[User talk:Redtigerxyz|talk]]) 09:30, 27 July 2008 (UTC)


==External links==
:I know the principle, but is it specific to this particular theology (SN) that one has to avoid using God to be distinguished from Abrahamic traditions? <span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:Wikidas|Wikidās ॐ]]</span> 11:30, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
{{Wikinews|Multifaith council commends Malaysian politician's comments on conversion to Islam}}
::Cat was changed from {{ccl|Hindu gods}} to
Original source of this information in Malay [http://www.harakahdaily.net/v06/index.php?option=com_content&task=view%20&id=791&Itemid=28]
::{{lcs|Hindu deities}} - the error was apparent at the time when Hindu gods were created as subcategory of Hindu deities and wrong or disputed sorting accrued. It is based on the consensus, and it was suggested that it is not being changed, other editors on the [[WP:Hinduism]] agreed. <span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:Wikidas|Wikidās ॐ]]</span> 18:33, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
*[http://www.alamin-network.org Alamin-Network] Islamic Community in Malaysia
:::There is no consensus as to use of {{ccl|Hindu gods}} for the article. Please discuss and arrive at consensus before adding the {{ccl|Hindu gods}} to the article. Separate category was created and renamed to accommodate this article. There is no clear reference stating he is "Hindu god" nor was he ever listed by anyone in the list of "Hindu gods" as far as I know. If evidence is found, I will support addition {{ccl|Hindu gods}} to the article. <span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:Wikidas|Wikidās ॐ]]</span> 07:36, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


{{Asia in topic|Islam in}}
== Death of Bhagwan Swaminarayan ==


[[Category:Islam by country|Malaysia]]
Though the date is given, the cause of death is also required. Was he cremated or buried? Where? Info should be included about these points too.--[[User:Redtigerxyz|Redtigerxyz]] ([[User talk:Redtigerxyz|talk]]) 09:44, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
[[Category:Religion in Malaysia]]


[[ms:Islam di Malaysia]]
: Lord Swaminarayan chose to die (i.e. take Samadhi - where in you take a deep breath and leave your body). He informed his followers that his task on earth was complete and did this. He was cremated in Laxmi wadi, [[Gadhada]]. <strong>[[User:AroundTheGlobe|<span style="font-family:Script MT Bold;color:DarkBlue">Around The Globe</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:AroundTheGlobe|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Gray">सत्यमेव जयते</span></sup>]] 11:12, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
[[tr:Malezya'da İslam]]

:: Please take this in the article with a reference.--[[User:Redtigerxyz|Redtigerxyz]] ([[User talk:Redtigerxyz|talk]]) 14:44, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

== Neutrality ==

Questioning statements like "While there is indirect reference to Narayan taking birth in the form of Swaminarayan in the Geeta and Shreemad Bhagwad, there is a direct reference to this in the Brahma Purana and Vishwaksena Samhita."

The ref is a Biased, devotional literature-type site. It is not a scholar's view, but a devotee's view.
I don't think non-Swaminarayan sect commenter on the Gita or Bhagavat Purana for e.g, Radhakrishan or Prabhupada ever say anything about the so- called "indirect reference".

www.swaminarayansatsang.com and http://vadtal.com/about-sampraday.html are really not RS.--[[User:Redtigerxyz|Redtigerxyz]] ([[User talk:Redtigerxyz|talk]]) 09:59, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

== removed 20 million claim ==

I have removed this sentence:

According to the ''[[Indian Express]]'' newspaper, followers of the Swaminarayan faith number over 20 million.<ref name="express">{{Cite web| url=http://www.indianexpress.com/sunday/story/31939.html | title=Niche Faiths}}</ref>

This is '''not''' supported by the reference. The only number given in the article is not for Swaminarayan but the Satsang set up by Purushottam Thakur Anukulchandra. They make an extremely dubious claim of 20 crore or 200 million followers which is clearly indicated as self reported. -- [[User:Q Chris|Q Chris]] ([[User talk:Q Chris|talk]]) 09:33, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

'''This is supported by the reference'''. I quote from the reference -

<blockquote>
All factions have a cumulative 2 crore followers.
</blockquote>

For information, 1 crore = 10 million. Hence previous edit reversed. <strong>[[User:AroundTheGlobe|<span style="font-family:Script MT Bold;color:DarkBlue">Around The Globe</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:AroundTheGlobe|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Gray">सत्यमेव जयते</span></sup>]] 11:00, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

:Sorry my mistake. I re-read it more carefully, I don't know how I missed that. I do think the claims in that article seem a little dubious, but you are right it is in the article. -- [[User:Q Chris|Q Chris]] ([[User talk:Q Chris|talk]]) 11:35, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

== Images ==

My minor edits for image left and right were reverted. The reason i made the imgs left or right was "It is often preferable to place images of faces so that the face or eyes look toward the text." as per [[WP:MOS]] and avoid MOS violations.--[[User:Redtigerxyz|Redtigerxyz]] ([[User talk:Redtigerxyz|talk]]) 14:34, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

:: My edits, in accordance with MOS, are reverted again, without a discussion on this talk. I don't understand why the positioning of images in [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bhagwan_Swaminarayan&oldid=229575859 this version], in accordance with MOS, looks bad and why Reverted version (current positioning), a violation of MOS, is justified ?--[[User:Redtigerxyz|Redtigerxyz]] ([[User talk:Redtigerxyz|talk]]) 06:06, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

::: Redtigerxyz is correct. There also seems to be a violation of [[WP:OWN]] going on. <small>~&nbsp;</small>[[User:Priyanath|priyanath]]&nbsp;<small><i><sup>[[User talk:Priyanath|talk]]</sup></i></small> 16:35, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

'''Comment''' Dont no bout [[WP:MOS]] so cant comment, but I dont see any violation of [[WP:OWN]]. <strong>[[User:AroundTheGlobe|<span style="font-family:Script MT Bold;color:DarkBlue">Around The Globe</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:AroundTheGlobe|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Gray">सत्यमेव जयते</span></sup>]] 16:53, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry. I wasn't aware of this discussion before hand or else I would have commented before taking action. WP:MOS was this- "Avoid sandwiching text between two images facing each other" I was trying to get rid of this. Also, I am sorry if I had a violation of WP:OWN, I am just trying to protect and preserve this article like any wikipedian [[User:Juthani1|<span style="color:#ffffff;background:#ccf">&nbsp;<span style="background:#99f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#66f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#11f"><b>Juthani1</b></span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>]]<sup>[[User talk: Juthani1|t]][[Special:Contributions/Juthani1|c]][[User:Juthani1/Guest Book|s]] </sup> 18:51, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
==Hindu god (from Hinduism talk page)==
This refers to the earlier removal of [[Swaminarayan]] from the [[:Category: Hindu gods]], with the explanation that he is not universally followed as god in Hinduism. To take this forward, I would suugest that the above category is kept only for univerally excepted Hindu gods, such as [[Rama]], [[Krishna]], [[Shiva]] etc. The reason for bringing this up is that I noticed atleast 2 other articles in this category which are not universally followed in Hinduism. [[Vithoba]] is followed mainly in [[Maharashtra]] and [[Jhulelal]] mainly by [[Sindhi|Sindhis]]. <strong>[[User:AroundTheGlobe|<span style="font-family:Script MT Bold;color:DarkBlue">Around The Globe</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:AroundTheGlobe|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Gray">सत्यमेव जयते</span></sup>]] 17:24, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

# I disagree. Hinduism allows freedom of worship, Hinduism unlike semitic religions is not defined in terms of what is worshipped but by the fundamental beliefs of Dharma, Karma and Moksha. We have had a huge discussion on this and I think this is settled. 11:42, 11 August 2008 (UTC) <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Sindhian|Sindhian]] ([[User talk:Sindhian|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sindhian|contribs]]) </small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Exactly. It is open to many gods. This is why other gods should also be included. Did you know that there are more mandirs for bhagwan swaminarayan than Brahma. I not saying Brahma isn't important or not a hindu god, but other gods should also recieve recognition. This discussion is far from over. [[User:Juthani1|<span style="color:#ffffff;background:#ccf">&nbsp;<span style="background:#99f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#66f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#11f"><b>Juthani1</b></span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>]]<sup>[[User talk: Juthani1|t]][[Special:Contributions/Juthani1|c]][[User:Juthani1/Guest Book|s]] </sup> 22:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
::Lets not get into [[WP:OR]] again. The point is simple: most Hindus don't recognize "Swaminarayan" as a god (although he is recognized as a guru). ALL Hindus recognize Brahma as god irrespective of his current popularity. As I said earlier, the status of a particular god in Hinduism is determined by only two means: importance and popularity. Again, Brahma is important, but not popular (except among Hindus in Bali). Ganesh is somewhat less important, but highly popular. Swaminarayan, as a god, is neither important nor popular. We are starting to go in loops now. Its time for you to start citing highly reliable and neutral sources or move on. [[Special:Contributions/67.169.0.250|67.169.0.250]] ([[User talk:67.169.0.250|talk]]) 08:29, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Iv cited before - a reputed Indian newspaper has published that Swaminarayan has a following of over 20 million. There are over a thousand Swaminarayan temples around the world today (same source). If we go by what Sindhian said ''Hinduism allows freedom of worship, Hinduism unlike semitic religions is not defined in terms of what is worshipped but by the fundamental beliefs of Dharma, Karma and Moksha.'' Swaminarayan would def fall under Hindu gods in this case. Now, going by what 67.169.0.250 said, I dont think all the articles presently in the Hindu gods cat are highly important and popular in Hinduism, but they are present. Then why diff treatment for Swaminarayan? <strong>[[User:AroundTheGlobe|<span style="font-family:Script MT Bold;color:DarkBlue">Around The Globe</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:AroundTheGlobe|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Gray">सत्यमेव जयते</span></sup>]] 16:22, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
:Actually that is one of the features of Hinduism, it does not have a defined set of deities or gods. If there is any verifiable evidence that Swaminarayanas worship him as god he is probably is. However there is no evidence to it, is there? Did seems not ever called himself Bhagwan? Every guru is a manifestation of God or Krishna (if he worships Krishna as Swaminarayan did), however what is the evidence to suggest that he is god or had he said that he is god? Do Swaminarayans accept Harikishna Maharaj as god, he is on the altar installed as a Deity, but is he god? What is the difference between him and Swaminarayan. As far as I know SN never said he was god and his devotees state, that majority of Swaminarayan sampradaya do not consider him god. I am yet to come across any evidence to him being more then a worshipable Hindu deity. <span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:Wikidas|Wikidās ॐ]]</span> 19:28, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

And Swaminaryan, even if he is worshipped, is primarily a focus of worship for predominantly [[Gujarati]] adherents. People from the south India probably have not heard of him.

And as I said before,

Swaminaryan said in verse 115 of their scripture, Shikshapatri, "Shree Krishna Bhagwan and Shree Krishna Bhagwan's incarnations alone are worthy of meditation. Similarly, Shree Krishna Bhagwan's images are worthy. And men or devas, even if they are devotees of Shree Krishna Bhagwan or brahmavettaa (knowers of divinity), are still not worthy of meditation - and thus one should not meditate upon them."

This seems to contradict their statements; Anyone who prays to a human instead of Krishna is not worthy of mediation.

Also note that Swaminaryan believed in the Smarta panchadevata system; that's why he had murtis of Devi, Shiva linga, Krishna and Ganesh.

[[User:Raj2004|Raj2004]] ([[User talk:Raj2004|talk]]) 10:04, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, it seems that Swaminarayan's own statements contradict that he is God. Furthermore, Swaminarayan is only worshipped by Gujarati followers. For example, [[Ayyappan]] is a Kerala diety that is even hardly worshipped in the rest of the south India. Ayyapan is predominantly worshipped in [[Kerala]] only. Has a Gujarati follower heard of [[Ayyapan]]? Please answer my questions.

[[User:Raj2004|Raj2004]] ([[User talk:Raj2004|talk]]) 10:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

:: Iv mentioned this before. Swaminarayan did tell the Lord Bishop of Calcutta in a meeting in 1825 that ''he is a form of Kirshna'' (Williams, 2001). So to answer Wikidas, he did call himself god indirectly by saying he is a form of Krishna. There is no difference between Hari Krishna Maharaj and Swaminarayan, they are the same. Further, the Williams book coinfirms that Swaminarayan is worshipped as god - ''Swaminarayan, who is worshipped as the perfect manifestation of the eternal reality of god''.To answer Raj2004, if he is a form of Krishna, we are worshipping him according to the Shishapatri. If you say that Swaminarayan is only worshipped in Gujarat (a statement not true), thats why hes not in the god cat, then why is Ayyappan, who you yourself say is predmoinantly worshipped in Kerala only, in the god cat? There are Swaminarayan temples in various places in India, not just within Gujarat, all over. There are Swaminarayan temples in most states of India today - and that too in various parts of the states. Further There are loads of Swaminarayan Mandirs outside India too. There are Temples in Pakistan, USA, UK, Sweden, Canada, New Zealand and Various parts of Africa, Asia and Australia .. the list is never ending. <strong>[[User:AroundTheGlobe|<span style="font-family:Script MT Bold;color:DarkBlue">Around The Globe</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:AroundTheGlobe|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Gray">सत्यमेव जयते</span></sup>]] 16:39, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Just a fact I would like to throw in. Bhagwan Swaminarayan is a more recent, who came on earth 200 years ago (fairly recent compared to the other gods). Most facts are likely to be correct and probably historically correct becuase of how recent his appearance has been. [[User:Juthani1|<span style="color:#ffffff;background:#ccf">&nbsp;<span style="background:#99f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#66f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#11f"><b>Juthani1</b></span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>]]<sup>[[User talk: Juthani1|t]][[Special:Contributions/Juthani1|c]][[User:Juthani1/Guest Book|s]] </sup> 21:49, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Around the Globe, I agree on your point regarding ayyapan and swaminarayan. But Swaminarayan like ayyapan is not a universal Hindu God; he is predominantly worshipped by Gujarati followers around the world, be it USA, etc.

Krishna is worshipped everywhere, whether as Udupi Krishna in the south or as Srinathji!
Jai Shri Krishna!

[[User:Raj2004|Raj2004]] ([[User talk:Raj2004|talk]]) 01:19, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Raj, thats the reason I started this all over again. Be it Ayyapan, Vithoba or Jhulelal and some others on the list, all are in the god cat and are more regional gods. However, for some reason only Swaminarayan has been targetted. Either the god cat should be only for universal hindu gods or for all - there cannot be double standards. Im adding the cat back on the Swaminarayan page atm - if its decided that only universal gods stay so be it, but as of now Im putting it back, till a decision is taken on whether all or only universal hindu gods be added to the god cat. And BTW, there is no question on Krishna being a universal hindu god - Jai Shri Krishna! <strong>[[User:AroundTheGlobe|<span style="font-family:Script MT Bold;color:DarkBlue">Around The Globe</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:AroundTheGlobe|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Gray">सत्यमेव जयते</span></sup>]] 16:15, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Around the globe, I agree. There should be two categories, Universal Hindu Gods, and Regional Hindu Gods. Vishnu, Shiva and Devi are universal while Swaminaryan and Ayyapan are regional in nature.

[[User:Raj2004|Raj2004]] ([[User talk:Raj2004|talk]]) 23:31, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

In the past discussion we came up with the idea of Modern Hindu Gids and Traditional Hindu Gods [[User:Juthani1|<span style="color:#ffffff;background:#ccf">&nbsp;<span style="background:#99f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#66f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#11f"><b>Juthani1</b></span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>]]<sup>[[User talk: Juthani1|t]][[Special:Contributions/Juthani1|c]][[User:Juthani1/Guest Book|s]] </sup> 00:11, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Universal and Regional sound better. Ayyapan is not "modern" concept of God, but is regional.

[[User:Raj2004|Raj2004]] ([[User talk:Raj2004|talk]]) 00:30, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Raj, I '''Support'''. <strong>[[User:AroundTheGlobe|<span style="font-family:Script MT Bold;color:DarkBlue">Around The Globe</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:AroundTheGlobe|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Gray">सत्यमेव जयते</span></sup>]] 10:18, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I agree. Also, [[Ramakrishna]] also claimed that he was [[Krishna]] too like Swaminarayan, see,

http://www.gangaa.org/ Is Ramakrishna worshiped as a God?

Just curious.

[[User:Raj2004|Raj2004]] ([[User talk:Raj2004|talk]]) 11:20, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Chaityana, like Swaminarayan claimed that he was Lord Krishna's avatar; yet his followers don't worship Chaityana like BAPS does with Swaminaryan. How come there is no category for Chaityana and Ramakrishna as Hindu gods, based your arguments?

[[User:Raj2004|Raj2004]] ([[User talk:Raj2004|talk]]) 11:32, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

There are various scriptures which support the belief that Swaminarayan was a form of Krishna. Not only BAPS, all followers of Swaminarayan worship him as god. This is the diff, Chaitanya and Ramakrishna are not worshipped as god as you said. <strong>[[User:AroundTheGlobe|<span style="font-family:Script MT Bold;color:DarkBlue">Around The Globe</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:AroundTheGlobe|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Gray">सत्यमेव जयते</span></sup>]] 16:59, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
::May I suggest you read the first note here: /This is not a forum for general discussion of Hinduism/ and please stop this discussion that is going in circles without any idea of a definition of the basics or what you are talking about. There has not been a single source cited to support ether notion. If you want to continue discuss it at [[Talk:Bhagwan Swaminarayan]]. Thanks. <span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:Wikidas|Wikidās ॐ]]</span> 21:50, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikidas, I did support my assertions. Why should Swaminarayan be declared a Hindu God, because his followers claim he is a God, while Ramakrishna and Chaitya also claimed that they are Krishna's avatars, are not Hindu gods? Thus, Swaminaryan should be classified as a regional God.

Besides, you are a Gaudiya Vaishnavite who knows that Chaityana is Krishna's avatar? Isn't it?


[[User:Raj2004|Raj2004]] ([[User talk:Raj2004|talk]]) 01:41, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

*'''Comment''' Has this issue been addressed with the creation of the category, '''Category:People considered avatars by their followers?''' Thanks. [[User:Ism schism|Ism schism]] ([[User talk:Ism schism|talk]]) 01:57, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
::I can not see a single reference from [[WP:RS]] suggesting SN is Hindu god, but I see sufficient evidence and at least 1 source that confirms that he falls under '''Category:People considered avatars by their followers?'''. If there is evidence to the opposite, please suggest. <span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:Wikidas|Wikidās ॐ]]</span> 06:57, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
:I can do a research, (I did not meet the man:) but Ramakrishna is not considered an avatar of Krishna, he was an avatar of Shakti, Christ and his imaginary 'Krishna' not the Krishna of Bhagavata Purana. Avatars of Krishna are described in this Purana, if not in it should not be listed. <span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:Wikidas|Wikidās ॐ]]</span> 07:02, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikidas, NPOV. Ramakrishna claimed to have seen Lord Krishna and claimed to be an avatar of Krishna like Chaitayana. As far as I am concerned, both assertions are unverifiable. It's their belief. However, from my belief, if proof is even necessary, neither of them gave a vision of the Universal form, which proves that Krishna alone is God.

[[User:Raj2004|Raj2004]] ([[User talk:Raj2004|talk]]) 15:20, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
::I would not compare the likes. You are correct that verifiability here is based on [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chaitanya_Mahaprabhu&diff=prev&oldid=232967908 universal form]. <span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:Wikidas|Wikidās ॐ]]</span> 19:55, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
ISm Schism, the issue is far from over. First, the cat you suggest is not the correct one. Second the issue here is that there are several other regional hindu gods such as Ayyappan, Vithoba and Jhulelal in the god cat to name a few .. why different treatment for Swaminarayan then? <strong>[[User:AroundTheGlobe|<span style="font-family:Script MT Bold;color:DarkBlue">Around The Globe</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:AroundTheGlobe|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Gray">सत्यमेव जयते</span></sup>]] 17:42, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Around the globe, regarding Vithoba, Vithoba is considered by many followers to be Krishna. Jhulelal is considered to be [[Varuna]], who never claimed to be the supreme God, unlike Ayyapan.

[[User:Raj2004|Raj2004]] ([[User talk:Raj2004|talk]]) 21:23, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
::How many forms will you have in local d category? I do not think you will have 5, 5 is absolute minimum for any category. I think we can agree that as far as Svaminarayan is concern, he is in category of his own. <span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:Wikidas|Wikidās ॐ]]</span> 22:38, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
:::This discussion is starting to be a waste of time. [[Special:Contributions/67.169.0.250|67.169.0.250]] ([[User talk:67.169.0.250|talk]]) 08:11, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Raj, in reply, Swaminarayan is also considered by many followers to be a form of Krishna. If Jhulelal is not considered to be a hindu god, why the god cat on the article. Wikidas, I think we will have atleast 10 if not more articles in the local cat, if formed. <strong>[[User:AroundTheGlobe|<span style="font-family:Script MT Bold;color:DarkBlue">Around The Globe</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:AroundTheGlobe|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Gray">सत्यमेव जयते</span></sup>]] 11:41, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

: I strongly object that statement [[Vithoba]] is not considered a god elsewhere (not in Maharashtra) and his comparison with Swaminarayan. [http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/cgi-bin/serveimg.pl?file=/scans/MWScan/MWScanjpg/mw0961-vijRmbhin.jpgThe Monier-Williams Dictionary] attests this and also the [[Purana]]s. (For detailed references see article). His temples are also found are also found in Karnataka, Andhra and Tamil Nadu. He is frequently associated with Vishnu and Krishna, and devotional literature dedicated to him exists in Marathi, Kannada and Sanskrit - a verse notably by [[Adi Shankara]].--[[User:Redtigerxyz|Redtigerxyz]] ([[User talk:Redtigerxyz|talk]]) 13:04, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

:: Redtiger,

The link of the dictionary does not seem to be working. Please note that Swaminarayan mandirs too exist in MOST Indian states and a host of countries around the world. That Narayan will take the form of Swaminarayan and come to earth is mentioned in the Puranas as well. There is a host of devotional literature written on Swaminarayan too, the Shikshapatri was written by Swaminarayan himself, then there is the Vachanamrut and apart from these there are dozens of other books dedicated to him - including some by authors with international acclaim. There are over 3000 bhajans and Kirtans dedicated to Swaminarayan as well. <strong>[[User:AroundTheGlobe|<span style="font-family:Script MT Bold;color:DarkBlue">Around The Globe</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:AroundTheGlobe|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Gray">सत्यमेव जयते</span></sup>]] 18:01, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Note that I am not trying to put down Vithoba or any other god, this is just to reason why, when there are other regional gods in the Hindu Gods cat, Swaminarayan has been removed. <strong>[[User:AroundTheGlobe|<span style="font-family:Script MT Bold;color:DarkBlue">Around The Globe</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:AroundTheGlobe|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Gray">सत्यमेव जयते</span></sup>]] 18:07, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Comparison of Swaminarayan can be best with [[Sai Baba of Shirdi]], a ''historical'' (beyond the realm of Hindu mythology) person who we know ''lived'' and ''died'', and was later deified. But still we do not find the cat Hindu gods in that article nor a discussion about it on the talk.[[User:Redtigerxyz|Redtigerxyz]] ([[User talk:Redtigerxyz|talk]]) 14:50, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Pl. dont bring whole new dimention into this now. The discussion is on the god cat and regional gods part of the god cat. <strong>[[User:AroundTheGlobe|<span style="font-family:Script MT Bold;color:DarkBlue">Around The Globe</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:AroundTheGlobe|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Gray">सत्यमेव जयते</span></sup>]] 18:02, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Iv just gone through the god cat and found that the following gods are more ''regional'' in nature, hence, should be put in a regional gods cat. along with those earlier mentioned, [[Vithoba]], [[Jhulelal]], [[Ayyappan]] and [[Swaminarayan]].

* [[Veer Mhaskoba]]
* [[Thirumal]]
* [[Sudalai Madan]]
* [[Rsabha]]
* [[Ravalnath]]
* [[Muthappan]]
* [[Mhasoba]]
* [[Kotilingeshwara]]
* [[Khandoba]]
* [[Murugan]]
* [[Ayyanar]]

Pl. give ur suggestions and objections (if any). <strong>[[User:AroundTheGlobe|<span style="font-family:Script MT Bold;color:DarkBlue">Around The Globe</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:AroundTheGlobe|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Gray">सत्यमेव जयते</span></sup>]] 14:34, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I support adding Bhagwan Swaminarayan to Regional Gods. I believe that he is ''the'' God, but for wikipedia's article, I guess He'll have to settle for this. [[User:Wildtornado|wildT]] ([[User talk:Wildtornado|talk]]) 15:31, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I support making a separate category (Hindu Regional Gods). Many of these gods are believed to be god by large groups of people but specific to a certain area. [[User:Juthani1|<span style="color:#ffffff;background:#ccf">&nbsp;<span style="background:#99f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#66f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#11f"><b>Juthani1</b></span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>]]<sup>[[User talk: Juthani1|t]][[Special:Contributions/Juthani1|c]][[User:Juthani1/Guest Book|s]] </sup> 15:44, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


I agree with the suggestions. Jhulelal is a regional Sindhi god, for example.

[[User:Raj2004|Raj2004]] ([[User talk:Raj2004|talk]]) 20:02, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Seems to be a concensus on this issue. I am going ahead with the proposal. <strong>[[User:AroundTheGlobe|<span style="font-family:Script MT Bold;color:DarkBlue">Around The Globe</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:AroundTheGlobe|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Gray">सत्यमेव जयते</span></sup>]] 18:01, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

==Requested move==
{{polltop}}
'''Move''' [[User:Parsecboy|Parsecboy]] ([[User talk:Parsecboy|talk]]) 16:45, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


For some reason I couldn't move it so I did it by myself. I would like to apologize for that. However past consensus determine Bhagwan SWaminarayan as the fnal location of the article. Please place comments here before taking more action [[User:Juthani1|<span style="color:#ffffff;background:#ccf">&nbsp;<span style="background:#99f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#66f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#11f"><b>Juthani1</b></span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>]]<sup>[[User talk: Juthani1|t]][[Special:Contributions/Juthani1|c]][[User:Juthani1/Guest Book|s]] </sup> 23:48, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Sahajand Swami was his name as a saint, but he wasn't a saint his entire life. Bhagwan Swaminarayan describes him throughout his life. [[User:Juthani1|<span style="color:#ffffff;background:#ccf">&nbsp;<span style="background:#99f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#66f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#11f"><b>Juthani1</b></span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>]]<sup>[[User talk: Juthani1|t]][[Special:Contributions/Juthani1|c]][[User:Juthani1/Guest Book|s]] </sup> 23:51, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
::The same IP has moved it again, again improperly. Explanation was incorrect and the article should be semi-protected due to that. Please apply for semiprotection. <span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:Wikidas|Wikidās ॐ]]</span> 07:34, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

:: The problem of vadnalism exists on many Swaminarayan pages. I think the ones attacked the most should be identified and semi proctection requested on these pages. <strong>[[User:AroundTheGlobe|<span style="font-family:Script MT Bold;color:DarkBlue">Around The Globe</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:AroundTheGlobe|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Gray">सत्यमेव जयते</span></sup>]] 16:51, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
:::I do not think it was not [[wp:vandalism]]. It was a meaningful move, ie it was NOT addition, removal, or change of content made in a ''deliberate'' attempt to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia, but it was done without proper explanation and consensus. I suggest that moves should have explanation and consensus. <span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:Wikidas|Wikidās ॐ]]</span> 18:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
:Juthani1, can you explain why is it "he wasn't a saint his entire life"? When did he use the name Bhagwan Swaminarayan instead of his sannyasi name? <span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:Wikidas|Wikidās ॐ]]</span> 18:52, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes I can. Since he wanted to do service for women and help them he broke his sainthood vow. In the Swaminarayan religion saints must avoid women (can't see or touch them). Ban the IP address that did this. Should I report him to [[WP:AIV]]. Anyone else can if they want too. [[User:Juthani1|<span style="color:#ffffff;background:#ccf">&nbsp;<span style="background:#99f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#66f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#11f"><b>Juthani1</b></span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>]]<sup>[[User talk: Juthani1|t]][[Special:Contributions/Juthani1|c]][[User:Juthani1/Guest Book|s]] </sup> 22:02, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

That's funny, as I speak there was another case vandalism on the Bhagwan Swaminarayan page [[User:Juthani1|<span style="color:#ffffff;background:#ccf">&nbsp;<span style="background:#99f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#66f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#11f"><b>Juthani1</b></span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>]]<sup>[[User talk: Juthani1|t]][[Special:Contributions/Juthani1|c]][[User:Juthani1/Guest Book|s]] </sup> 22:05, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the name "Sahajanand Swami" should be bolded too as it is also used many times in books (211 in google books)[http://books.google.co.in/books?client=firefox-a&um=1&q=%22Sahajanand+Swami%22&btnG=Search+Books]
As you can observe, it is notable name and had been narrowed down along with "Bhagwan swaminarayan" for article title as per preceding discussions about the name. I do not support any move though. --[[User:Redtigerxyz|Redtigerxyz]] ([[User talk:Redtigerxyz|talk]]) 12:38, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

It is a common name, but not as common as it wasn't his name for his entire life, just a portion of it. It is used in books to avoid POV as we have [[User:Juthani1|<span style="color:#ffffff;background:#ccf">&nbsp;<span style="background:#99f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#66f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#11f"><b>Juthani1</b></span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>]]<sup>[[User talk: Juthani1|t]][[Special:Contributions/Juthani1|c]][[User:Juthani1/Guest Book|s]] </sup> 16:00, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Juthani1 is right that Swaminarayan is what it should be. However, I do feel that Bhagwan is POV and should be removed. Iv suggested this before too, as even [[Krishna]] and [[Rama]] and others are named in this way according to Wikipedia naming convention. I therefore propose the page be moved from '''Bhagwan Swaminarayan''' to '''Swaminarayan'''. <strong>[[User:AroundTheGlobe|<span style="font-family:Script MT Bold;color:DarkBlue">Around The Globe</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:AroundTheGlobe|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Gray">सत्यमेव जयते</span></sup>]] 16:36, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

The article should be moved to Swaminarayan. Bhagwan means god in gujarati and hindi. This is POV to those who don't see him as god. [[User:Juthani1|<span style="color:#ffffff;background:#ccf">&nbsp;<span style="background:#99f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#66f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#11f"><b>Juthani1</b></span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>]]<sup>[[User talk: Juthani1|t]][[Special:Contributions/Juthani1|c]][[User:Juthani1/Guest Book|s]] </sup> 00:03, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Is anyone against the move? [[User:Juthani1|<span style="color:#ffffff;background:#ccf">&nbsp;<span style="background:#99f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#66f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#11f"><b>Juthani1</b></span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>]]<sup>[[User talk: Juthani1|t]][[Special:Contributions/Juthani1|c]][[User:Juthani1/Guest Book|s]] </sup> 00:04, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Support '''Swaminarayan''' move.--[[User:Redtigerxyz|Redtigerxyz]] ([[User talk:Redtigerxyz|talk]]) 12:30, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
:Support '''Swaminarayan''' move, since disambiguation page is in place. --<span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:Wikidas|Wikidās ॐ]]</span> 06:53, 19 August 2008 (UTC) I have moved it to the proper spelling of his name in Indic: Svāmīnārāyaṇa - of course you can spell it '''Swaminarayan''', but that would not be the exact spelling. <span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:Wikidas|Wikidās ॐ]]</span> 07:12, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

About the move, '''Swaminarayan''' is the most common spelling, it is better to move it to that. This is how it is spelled when transfered Gujarati. Most Swaminarayans are gujarati [[User:Juthani1|<span style="color:#ffffff;background:#ccf">&nbsp;<span style="background:#99f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#66f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#11f"><b>Juthani1</b></span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>]]<sup>[[User talk: Juthani1|t]][[Special:Contributions/Juthani1|c]][[User:Juthani1/Guest Book|s]] </sup> 12:05, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
:Can you confirm how is it possible for "transfered Gujarati" to be different from all other Indic languages? <span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:Wikidas|Wikidās ॐ]]</span> 13:37, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

The spelling "Svāmīnārāyaṇa" is so unfamilar, i strongly oppose this move. I prefer '''Swaminarayan''', the common spelling.--[[User:Redtigerxyz|Redtigerxyz]] ([[User talk:Redtigerxyz|talk]]) 13:58, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I can't confirm, but I know that it is spelled this way and is the most common spelling. I've never seen it spelled this way [[User:Juthani1|<span style="color:#ffffff;background:#ccf">&nbsp;<span style="background:#99f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#66f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#11f"><b>Juthani1</b></span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>]]<sup>[[User talk: Juthani1|t]][[Special:Contributions/Juthani1|c]][[User:Juthani1/Guest Book|s]] </sup> 14:43, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
::As I said, I do not object, I was just wander why is it -narayan and not -narayana? Why Swami instead of Svami? <span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:Wikidas|Wikidās ॐ]]</span> 15:18, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

:: '''It should be '''Swaminarayan''' according to most common use - hv never heard of wht its been made into. <strong>[[User:AroundTheGlobe|<span style="font-family:Script MT Bold;color:DarkBlue">Around The Globe</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:AroundTheGlobe|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Gray">सत्यमेव जयते</span></sup>]] 17:38, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

You guys can not be serious if you never heard a correct spelling of his name, its is the academically accepted spelling of Svāmīnārāyaṇa. [http://books.google.com/books?id=_CAYAAAAIAAJ&q=Svaminarayana&dq=Svaminarayana&ei=-yarSLqeOKbSigHc2bG6Dg&client=firefox-a The Philosophy of Śrī Svāminārāyaṇa] by Jayendrakumar Anandji Yajnik, L.D. Institute of Indology, 1972, {{cite web
|url=http://www.jstor.org/pss/613574
|title=JSTOR: Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 36, No. 2 (1973 ), pp. 517-517
|publisher=www.jstor.org
|accessdate=2008-08-19
|last=
|first=
}} - they could be good sources as well. <span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:Wikidas|Wikidās ॐ]]</span> 20:06, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

For judgment, which is the common spelling.
* Swaminarayan: 468,000 google hits [http://www.google.co.in/search?client=firefox-a&um=1&lr=&q=%22Swaminarayan%22&sa=N&tab=pw]
* Svāmīnārāyaṇa: 395 hits [http://www.google.co.in/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&q=Sv%C4%81m%C4%ABn%C4%81r%C4%81ya%E1%B9%87a&btnG=Search&meta=]
[[User:Redtigerxyz|Redtigerxyz]] ([[User talk:Redtigerxyz|talk]]) 04:48, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Though Svāmīnārāyaṇa is the correct [[IAST]] spelling, Swaminarayan is the correct common Indian English spelling. [[IAST]] is not understood by all readers, i can tell that by my personal experience. Before wiki editing, i was not aware of what IAST was.--[[User:Redtigerxyz|Redtigerxyz]] ([[User talk:Redtigerxyz|talk]]) 13:50, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

===Vote===
Please write <nowiki>**'''Support''' ~~~~</nowiki> or <nowiki>**'''Oppose''' ~~~~</nowiki> below the relevant entry. The vote will last 7 days. Please do not write the reasons or comments for your vote here. They can be written in section above. Thanks. [[User:Redtigerxyz|Redtigerxyz]] ([[User talk:Redtigerxyz|talk]]) 04:45, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
* '''Swaminarayan'''
**'''Support''' [[User:Redtigerxyz|Redtigerxyz]] ([[User talk:Redtigerxyz|talk]]) 04:45, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
**'''Support''' as a popular spelling<span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:Wikidas|Wikidās ॐ]]</span> 07:22, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
**'''Support''' on wiki macrons are used only on Japanese names, also Swaminarayan is the most common spelling [[User:Juthani1|<span style="color:#ffffff;background:#ccf">&nbsp;<span style="background:#99f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#66f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#11f"><b>Juthani1</b></span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>]]<sup>[[User talk: Juthani1|t]][[Special:Contributions/Juthani1|c]][[User:Juthani1/Guest Book|s]] </sup> 11:31, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
**'''Support''' Most common use''' <strong>[[User:AroundTheGlobe|<span style="font-family:Script MT Bold;color:DarkBlue">Around The Globe</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:AroundTheGlobe|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Gray">सत्यमेव जयते</span></sup>]] 13:07, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
**'''Support''' Most common use. [[User:Erudy|Erudy]] ([[User talk:Erudy|talk]]) 19:33, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
**'''Support''' [[User:Lokesh 2000|Lokesh 2000]] ([[User talk:Lokesh 2000|talk]]) 08:34, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
**'''Support''' Nobody types in IAST. It is good to include in the article but the title should have the simplified name so it doesn't scare off any potential readers. <b><font color="teal">[[User:DaGizza|Gizza]]</font></b>''<sup><font color="teal">[[User_talk:DaGizza|Discuss]]</font></sup>'' <sup><b><font color="teal">[[Special:Contributions/DaGizza|&#169;]]</font></b></sup> 13:05, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
**'''Support''' because this is the original and correct phonetic way of spelling it.[[User:Bhudiya2|Raj - सनातन धर्म]] ([[User talk:Bhudiya2|talk]]) 13:12, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

----
* '''Svāmīnārāyaṇa'''
**'''Oppose''' [[User:Redtigerxyz|Redtigerxyz]] ([[User talk:Redtigerxyz|talk]]) 04:45, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
**'''Support''' as the correct spelling<span style="font-family:Tahoma;">[[User:Wikidas|Wikidās ॐ]]</span> 07:22, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
**'''Oppose''' as it doesn't follow wiki format [[User:Juthani1|<span style="color:#ffffff;background:#ccf">&nbsp;<span style="background:#99f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#66f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#11f"><b>Juthani1</b></span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>]]<sup>[[User talk: Juthani1|t]][[Special:Contributions/Juthani1|c]][[User:Juthani1/Guest Book|s]] </sup> 11:32, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

**'''Support''' [[User:Lokesh 2000|Lokesh 2000]] ([[User talk:Lokesh 2000|talk]]) 08:31, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
**'''Oppose''' Nobody types in IAST. It is good to include in the article but the title should have the simplified name so it doesn't scare off any potential readers. <b><font color="teal">[[User:DaGizza|Gizza]]</font></b>''<sup><font color="teal">[[User_talk:DaGizza|Discuss]]</font></sup>'' <sup><b><font color="teal">[[Special:Contributions/DaGizza|&#169;]]</font></b></sup> 13:05, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
**'''Oppose''' because this is not in contrast with the widely used mainstream version and it seems a very retarded way of spelling it. [[User:Bhudiya2|Raj - सनातन धर्म]] ([[User talk:Bhudiya2|talk]]) 13:12, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

{{pollbottom}}

== Post-Move ==
Now that we have settled upon a name, is there any way to make sure it isn't moved again, preserve the article's name besides through the above section? [[User:Juthani1|<span style="color:#ffffff;background:#ccf">&nbsp;<span style="background:#99f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#66f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#11f"><b>Juthani1</b></span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>]]<sup>[[User talk: Juthani1|t]][[Special:Contributions/Juthani1|c]][[User:Juthani1/Guest Book|s]] </sup> 22:05, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

== direct quote ==

:''"new group, now know as BAPS, "they have put Sahajanand Swami, an [[ascetic]], over Shri [[Krishna]], who admittedly enjoyed the pleasures of human beings. That is why the sect has set aside [[Goloka]] as the supreme heaven, because there [[Krishna]] is supposed to be enjoing himself with his [[gopi]]s. This is I think one of the fundamental differences between the two sects and the [[schism]] cannot be bridged."''

This is a direct quote [http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=tPkexi2EhAIC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=&source=web&ots=ugf2PjiL8U&sig=YGiJTRYZuHeJmG0uxG7FT47QwI0&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result], and therefore cannot be changed even though the text is a little unwieldy. Of course the quote could be replaced by a paraphrase but I don't think that would add value. -- [[User:Q Chris|Q Chris]] ([[User talk:Q Chris|talk]]) 07:20, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

== Education for Females ==
The title of this secton can't be Female Eduction. It isn't grammatically correct since two nouns are being used. Same with education facilities [[User:Juthani1|<span style="color:#ffffff;background:#ccf">&nbsp;<span style="background:#99f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#66f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#11f"><b>Juthani1</b></span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>]]<sup>[[User talk: Juthani1|t]][[Special:Contributions/Juthani1|c]][[User:Juthani1/Guest Book|s]] </sup> 22:41, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

== GA issues and Peer review by Redtigerxyz ==

As a GA reviewer and nominator, i find certain problems that should addressed before a GA nom, they are:
* The reliability of Ref 3, 4, 6, 7, 12, 14, 16, 17, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 35, 36, are questionable. They are not [[WP:RS]]. They seem to like devotee literature. Views of Mainstream scholars like Williams should be quoted.
* Ref 8 can not be accessed directly [http://www.smvs.org/Grand%20Tradition/index.php]. Ref 26 is dead.
* Use {{tl|cite}} template for all refs.
* There are many 1-2 line paras or sections, which are unwanted as [[WP:LAYOUT]].
* [[:Image:Shreeji Maharaj.jpg]] does not give any source or date to justify the PD tag.
* [[:Image:Lord.JPG]] has the same problem, no proof of 1940 date
* 'Citation needed' tags
* The lead is short.
* Challenging "While there is indirect reference to Narayan taking birth in the form of Swaminarayan in the Geeta and Shreemad Bhagwad, there is a direct reference to this in the Brahma Purana and Vishwaksena Samhita." I have never heard other scholars interpret the Geeta or Bhagvad as this. Bring a Neutral source to support this statement.
--[[User:Redtigerxyz|Redtigerxyz]] ([[User talk:Redtigerxyz|talk]]) 13:54, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
* statements like "With the advent of kaliyug, Adharm (immoral situation) had spread in Bharat Khand (India) and Asurs (evil people) had also tremendously increased" are not encyclopedic.
* "He was born on the occasion of Ram Navmi, hence Chaitra Sud Nom of the Vikram Samvat calendar is celebrated as both Rama Navami and Swaminarayan Jayanti by his followers." who he? swaminarayan or ramanand
* "is of great historical value ", "in the presence of thousands of pilgrims representing many parts of India": [[WP:PEACOCK]] term. A through copyedit is needed for eliminating all glorifications, peacock terms and weasel words.
* The article goes away from Swaminarayan describing UNDUE details like "This was the first temple of the Swaminarayan Sampraday constructed as per scriptural norms with intricate carving in pure Burma-teak and constructed with sculptural art by depicting deities' episodes, auspicious symbols and religious icons representing axiomatic religion and Indian culture. The temple is believed to be a valuable cultural heritage in the socio-religious history of Gujarat and India." "The Gujarat Earthquake on January 26, 2001 destroyed much of the city of Bhuj, including this temple. Members of the Swaminarayan Sampraday have resolved to construct a new temple a short distance away from the site." The para has peacock terms, is not directly linked to Swaminaryan, just tells about the temple.
--[[User:Redtigerxyz|Redtigerxyz]] ([[User talk:Redtigerxyz|talk]]) 14:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Further is an automated review:
<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{name}}}|Swaminarayan|[[User:Redtigerxyz|Redtigerxyz]] ([[User talk:Redtigerxyz|talk]]) 13:54, 7 October 2008 (UTC)}}</onlyinclude>The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic [[User:AndyZ/peerreviewer|javascript program]], and might not be applicable for the article in question.
*Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at [[Wikipedia:Lead]]. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on [[WP:LEAD]], and should adequately summarize the article.<sup>[[User:AndyZ/G#lead|[?]]]</sup>
*You may wish to consider adding an appropriate [[WP:INFOBOX|infobox]] for this article, if one exists relating to the topic of the article. <sup>[[User:AndyZ/G#infobox|[?]]]</sup> (Note that there might not be an applicable infobox; remember that these suggestions are not generated manually)
*Per [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings)]], headings generally should not repeat the title of the article. For example, if the article was [[Ferdinand Magellan]], instead of using the heading ''<nowiki>==Magellan's journey==</nowiki>'', use ''<nowiki>==Journey==</nowiki>''.<sup>[[User:AndyZ/G#headingre|[?]]]</sup>
*This article does not have any [[WP:CAT|categories]]. Please categorize it with relevant <code><nowiki>[[Category:Categories]]</nowiki></code>.
*This article is a bit too short, and therefore may not be as comprehensive as [[WP:WIAFA]] critera 1(b) is looking for. Please see if anything can be expanded upon.<sup>[[User:AndyZ/G#expand|[?]]]</sup>
*There are a few occurrences of [[weasel word]]s in this article- please observe [[WP:AWT]]. Certain phrases should specify exactly who supports, considers, believes, etc., such a view.
**''is considered''
**might be weasel words, and should be provided with proper [[WP:FOOTNOTE|citations]] (if they already do, or are not weasel terms, please <strike>strike</strike> this comment).<sup>[[User:AndyZ/G#awt|[?]]]</sup> <!--This javascript cannot determine if a citation is provided; if all weasel terms are covered by citations, please strike this-->
*As done in [[WP:FOOTNOTE]], footnotes usually are located right after a punctuation mark (as recommended by the [[The Chicago Manual of Style|CMS]], but not mandatory), such that there is no space in between. For example, ''the sun is larger than the moon [2].'' is usually written as ''the sun is larger than the moon.[2]''<sup>[[User:AndyZ/G#footspace|[?]]]</sup>
*The article will need references. See [[WP:CITE]] and [[WP:V]] for more information.<sup>[[User:AndyZ/G#ref|[?]]]</sup>
*Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of [[WP:WIAFA|Wikipedia's best work]]. See also [[User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a]].<sup>[[User:AndyZ/G#copyedit|[?]]]</sup>
You may wish to browse through [[User:AndyZ/Suggestions]] for further ideas. Thanks, [[User:Redtigerxyz|Redtigerxyz]] ([[User talk:Redtigerxyz|talk]]) 13:54, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Redtiger, Thanks for your review. I have the following answers to your questions:

* The Williams book is the ONLY mainstream neutral source. We went through this earlier (a time when the whole article had citation needed tags all over due to lack of sources), and Wikidas then suggested the use of Swaminarayan-related websites as sources citing [[WP:YESPOV]]. However, please note that while quoting these sources, the language of these sources was totally changed - from devotional to encyclopedic. If any devotional terms still exist they need to be removed. I hope you understand the situation and that these sources have only been used due to the lack of other proper sources.

* reference 8 is not really required - 6 and 7 cover that. I will find another reference to replace 26.

* Could you please suggest what should be done for this?

* Its a Swaminarayan Sampraday 1890 painting - what proof do you need to back this?

* Dont know where this date has come from - Bhudiya2 uploaded it so I think he will be the best person to answer that. This has a GNU license anyways.

* Major minus - they need to be sorted.

* I was thinking of adding the cause of death ([[Samādhi]]) and place of death and cremation ( [[Gadhada]] and Laxmi Wadi, Gadhada) to the lead. Will that be enough - or anything else is required to be added?

* The ''indirect reference'' means Narayan promised to take birth again in human form in the future in both the Geeta and the Shreemad Bhagvad - but did not directly say it would be in the form of ''Swaminarayan''. There are many neutral sources that confirm this - I will cite them. Whiles ''direct reference'' means that there is direct reference to Narayan taking human form as ''Swaminarayan'' in the Brahma Purana and Vishwaksena Samhita - source 4 confirms that (though its a Swaminarayan related website its the only available source).

* How would you suggest we re-phrase these statements?

* Swaminarayan - will be made clear.

* True - needs to be removed.

* Swaminarayan and the temple is linked - only those temples made by Swaminarayan himself are mentioned. Yes, true the peacock terms need to be removed, however there needs to be mention of the temples as they were made by Swaminarayan himself.

It would help a great deal if you could clear some of the above. <strong>[[User:AroundTheGlobe|<span style="font-family:Script MT Bold;color:DarkBlue">Around The Globe</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:AroundTheGlobe|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Gray">सत्यमेव जयते</span></sup>]] 12:07, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Revision as of 15:41, 12 October 2008

Ubudiah Mosque is well known mosque in Malaysia, located in Kuala Kangsar.
Sultan Salahuddin Abdul Aziz Mosque at Shah Alam, Selangor. The largest mosque in Malaysia.

Islam is the official religion of Malaysia, and the Government actively promotes the spread of Islam in the country and its friendship with other Muslim countries. The Census in 2000 show approximately 60.4 percent of the total population are Muslims in Malaysia.[1] All ethnic Malays are Muslim (100%) as defined by Article 160 of the Constitution of Malaysia.[2][3], there are also substantial numbers of Indian Muslims and a few numbers of ethnic Chinese converts.[citation needed] As required by Malaysian law and defined in the Constitution of Malaysia, a Malay would surrender his ethnic status if he were not Muslim. However the reverse is not legally true; one does not legally become a Bumiputra by converting to Islam.

A number of young Muslims, especially those from a more secular or westernized background are less-than-practicing Muslims. They observe the practice of a holy month (Ramadan), when fasting during daylight hours is mandatory, and abstain from pork, yet may not pray five times a day nor visit mosques frequently. At the same time, increasing numbers of Malays are becoming more religious, with Islamic banking and use of the tudung (headscarf) in accordance with the laws of hijab (modesty) becoming increasingly common.

Islam forms

Sunni Islam

Sunni Islam of the Shafi`i school of thought is the official, legal form in Malaysia, although syncretist Islam with elements of Shamanism is still common in rural areas. Mosques are an ordinary scene throughout the country and adhan (call to prayer) from minarets are heard five times a day. Government bodies and banking institutions are closed for two hours every Friday so Muslims workers can conduct Friday prayer in mosques. However, in certain rural states such as Kelantan and Terengganu the weekends fall on Friday and Saturday instead of Saturday and Sunday. The Malaysian authorities have strict policies against other Islamic sects including Shia Islam.[4] A notable sect that has been outlawed is Al-Arqam.[5]

Islam Hadhari

Masjid Putra in, Putrajaya

The term "Islam Hadhari" ( "Civilizational Islam") is a type of progressive Islam heavily promoted by Malaysian prime minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi to emphasize the central role of knowledge in Islam. This doctrine espouses a belief in hard work, honesty, good administration and efficiency are equally valued and appeals to Muslims to be inclusive, tolerant and outward-looking.

Islam Hadhari aims to achieve ten main principles:

  1. Faith and piety in God
  2. A just and trustworthy government
  3. A free and independent people
  4. Mastery of knowledge
  5. Balanced and comprehensive economic development
  6. A good quality of life
  7. Protection of the rights of minority groups and women
  8. Cultural and moral integrity
  9. Environment safeguarding
  10. Strong defenses

Abdullah Mohd Zain, a minister in the prime minister's department, says, "It emphasizes wisdom, practicality and harmony."[citation needed] He added that "It encourages moderation or a balanced approach to life. Yet it does not stray from the fundamentals of the Qur'an and the example and sayings of the Prophet."[citation needed]

There are however Muslims in Malaysia that disagree with this concept, as the teachings of Islam are already complete and thus, they feel that Islam does not need a new name or face.

History

Islam came to Malaysia with the Indian traders from South India and was not of the more orthodox Islamic tradition of Arabia. Islam was adopted peacefully by the coastal trading ports people of Malaysia and Indonesia, absorbing rather than conquering existing beliefs. As in many Muslim countries, Islam in Malaysia has seen a significant revival over the past 10 years or so.

It is wise for visitors to be appropriately discreet in dress and behaviour, particularly on the more strictly Muslim east coast of the peninsula. Malay ceremonies and beliefs still exhibit pre-Islamic traditions, but most Malays are ardent Muslims and to suggest otherwise to a Malay would cause great offence. With the rise of Islamic fundamentalism, the calls to introduce Islamic law and purify the practices of Islam have increased, but while the Government is keen to espouse Muslim ideals, it is wary of religious extremism. The Koran is the main source of religious law for Malays, and though few are proficient in Arabic, all Malay children are sent to learn to read the Koran. Malaysia has an annual Koran-reading competition, and passages of the Koran are read in Arabic at many Malay ceremonies.[6]

It is commonly held that Islam first exists in Malay peninsular since Sultan Muzaffar Shah I (12th century) of Kedah was the first ruler to be known to convert to Islam since introduced to Islam by Rowther and Marakkar. In the 13th century, the Terengganu Stone Monument was found at Kuala Berang, Terengganu where the first Malay state to receive Islam in 1303 Sultan Megat Iskandar Shah, known as Parameswara prior to his conversion, is the first Sultan of Melaka. He converted into Islam after marrying a princess from Pasai, of present day Indonesia. The conversion of the Sultanate of Malacca by Rowther and Marakkar traders from Tamil Nadu into Islam is the milestone of Islamification of Malay people in Malaysia.

The tudung is a relatively recent introduction and was not prominent until the rise of worldwide Islam in the 1970s. Some commentators have found it jarring to see Malay women donning the tudung and at the same time wearing tight-fitting T-shirts.

Early Chinese Muslims

The national census 2000 shows the number of Chinese Muslims at more than 57000. The Chinese Muslims also known as Hui have had a long history in this region spanning at least 600 years, not only in today’s Malaysia, but the whole of the then Malay World. They came from China and settled during the 15th century, to the thousands of Chinese who converted into Islam, the presence and contribution of the Chinese Muslims have unfortunately not been recognized enough by Malaysian historians, scholars and politicians. [2]

Indonesian Islamic scholar Hamka wrote in 1961:

The development of Islam in Indonesia and Malaya is intimately related to a Chinese Muslim, Admiral Zheng He.

Parlindungan Mangaradja Onggang pointed out that when the Ming Dynasty’s fleet stopped in Semarang, Zheng He, Ma Huan and Fei Xin often went to the mosque to pray.

Under the influence of Zheng He between 1411-1416, in the Malay Peninsula, Java, Sumatra, and the Philippines, there developed many Chinese Muslim areas, and many mosques were built.

Indonesian scholar Slamet Muljana wrote:

Zheng He built Chinese Muslim communities first in Palembang and then in San Fa (West Kalimantan), subsequently he built same kind of communities along the shores of Java, the Malay Peninsula and the Philippines. They propagated the Islamic faith according to the Hanafi sect and in Chinese language.

Li Tong Cai, in his book Indonesia – Legends and Facts’, wrote:

in 1430, Zheng He had already successfully established the foundations of the Hui religion. After his death in 1434, Haji Yan Ying Yu became the force behind the Chinese Muslim community. He delegated a few local Chinese as leaders, such as Sun Long, a trader from Semarang, and Peng Rui He and Haji Peng De Qin. Sun Long and Peng Rui He actively urged the Chinese community to ‘Javanise’. They encouraged the younger Chinese generation to assimilate with the Javanese society, to take on Javanese names and their way of life. Sun Long’s adopted son Chen Wen, also named Radin Pada is the son of King Majapahit and his Chinese wife.

Tan Yeok Seong, in the book Journal of the South Seas Society wrote:

The early settlements were peopled by Chinese Muslims who had created a sphere of influence for themselves with the co-operation of Zheng He. Religion and trade then went hand in hand. Through Islam, the Muslims, in spite of their racial differences, became masters of trade. On the other hand, successful maritime trade helped to spread Islamisation. The Chinese settlers of this period were pioneers of both these enterprises. They had been Muslims and had established for themselves Islamic settlements at important trade centres, such as Palembang and Gresik. From these centres a process of converting the indigenous people was begun.

Death of Zheng He

After the death of Zheng He, the Ming Chinese naval expeditions were suspended. The Hanafi Islam that Zheng He and his people propagated lost almost all contact with Islam in China and gradually was totally absorbed by the local Shafi’i sect. When Melaka was colonised by the Portuguese, the Dutch, and later the British, the Chinese community were discouraged to convert into Islam. Many of the Chinese Muslim mosques became Zheng He temples (San bao) to commemorate Zheng He. The influence of Chinese Muslims in Malacca declined to almost nil. [3]

Cultural role

The tudung is very commonly worn by Malay women.

Islam is central to and dominant in Malay culture. A significant number of words in the Malay vocabulary can trace their origins to Arabic which is the chosen language of Islam. This is, however, not exclusive and words from other cultures such as Portuguese, Chinese, Dutch, Sanskrit, Tamil, English, and French can also be found in the Malay language. Islam is so ingrained in Malay life that Islamic rituals are practiced as Malay culture. Muslim and Malays are interchangeable in many daily contexts.

Hari Raya Aidilfitri (Eid ul-Fitr) is an important festival celebrated by Malaysian Muslims.

The interpretation of Islam in Malaysia is relatively liberal in contrast to the popular conception of Islamic nations. Muslim women generally wear the tudung (hijab or headscarf) over their heads. These tudungs do not cover the face. Malay women not wearing any head gear are not reprimanded or penalised. Prominent Malaysian female examples are Datuk Seri Rafidah Aziz, International Trade and Industry Minister and Tun Dr Siti Hasmah Mohd Ali, wife of former Malaysian Prime Minister Tun Dr Mahathir bin Mohammad. However, with the influx of Arabic travellers, foreign Muslim women (Arabs) wearing hijab that leave only their eyes exposed are often spotted in tourist attractions, not the least at the shopping malls. At certain Malaysian institutions such as the International Islamic University, wearing of the tudung is mandatory; however for non-Muslim students this usually amounts to a loosely worn piece of cloth draped over the back of the head.

The tudung, or the hijab, is a symbol of a Muslim woman. This is such because it represents the modesty of a woman's way, as described by the religion.

Some find the tudung to be an indication of Arabic influence in Malay Muslim culture, and point to other incidents such as the banning of the traditional Malay wayang kulit in the state of Kelantan (which is ruled by the Islamist PAS) for being "un-Islamic". [7]

In general, males and females can mix easily like any other liberal Western countries. However, desiring to expose the body and intimacy such as kissing is still rare among Muslims in public. In conservative states where PAS has more influence, such as Kelantan, different genders are at least theoretically segregated in public places like the cinema and supermarket.

Political position

UMNO's committee in mosque

Tan Sri Abdul Khalid Ibrahim, the 14th chief minister of the state of Selangor said "We want mosques to carry out more activities for the Muslims. Unfortunately, UMNO (political party) only want to put their men in the administration of mosques. This is absurd,". He said he wants to replace mosque committees to reduce political interference. "We must remember, the Sultan of Selangor in his every speech has stressed against using mosques for political purposes and His Highness has been consistent in stating his views" [4]

Politics and religion is mixed together

Political aspects of Islam are derived from the Quran, the Sunna, Muslim history and sometimes elements of political movements outside Islam.

Traditional political concepts in Islam include leadership by successors to the Prophet known as Caliphs, (Imamate for Shia); the importance of following Islamic law or Sharia; the duty of rulers to seek Shura or consultation from their subjects; and the importance of rebuking unjust rulers but not encouraging rebellion against them.A sea change in the Islamic world was the abolition of the Ottoman caliphate in 1924, which some believed meant an end to the Islamic state both in "symbolic and practice terms".

This show the reason about politics and religion should be mixed together

Definition of Malay

As defined by the constitution of Malaysia, Malays must be Muslim, regardless of their ethnic heritage; otherwise, legally, they are not Malay. Consequently, apostate Malays would have to forfeit all their constitutional privileges, including their Bumiputra status, which entitles them to affirmative action policies in university admissions, discounts on purchases of vehicles or real estate, etc. It is legally possible to become a Malay if a non-Malay citizen with a Malaysian parent converts to Islam and thus claim all the Bumiputra privileges granted by Article 153 of the Constitution and the New Economic Policy (NEP), etc. However, the convert must "habitually speak the Malay language" and adhere to Malay culture. A textbook for tertiary Malaysian studies following the government-approved syllabus states: "This explains the fact that when a non-Malay embraces Islam, he is said to masuk Melayu (become a Malay). That person is automatically assumed to be fluent in the Malay language and to be living like a Malay as a result of his close association with the Malays." [8]

Islam in Malaysia is thus closely associated with the Malay people, something an Islamic scholar has criticised, saying that Malaysian Islam is "still clothed in communal garb; that Muslims in Malaysia have yet to understand what the universal spirit of Islam means in reality."[9]

Sharia legal system

Parallel to the civil courts, there are Sharia courts which conduct legal matters related to religious (Islam) and (Muslim) family issues. Legal issues like Muslim divorce and Muslim apostasy are conducted in the Syariah Court. Non-Muslims are not affected by this.

Official religion

File:MosqueJamek.jpg
Masjid Jamek is one of the most recognizable mosques in Malaysia.

Nine of the Malaysian states, namely Kelantan, Terengganu, Pahang, Kedah, Perak, Perlis, Selangor, Johor and Negeri Sembilan have constitutional Malay monarchs (most of them styled as Sultans). These Malay rulers still maintain authority over religious affairs in states. The states of Penang, Malacca, Sarawak and Sabah do not have any sultan, but the king (Yang di-Pertuan Agong) play the role of heads of Islam in those states as well as the Federal Territories of Kuala Lumpur, Labuan and Putrajaya.

Originally, the draft Constitution of Malaysia did not specify any official religion for the state. This move was supported by the rulers of the nine Malay states, who felt that it was sufficient that Islam was the official religion of each of their individual states. However, Justice Abdul Hamid of the Reid Commission which drafted the Constitution came out strongly in favour of making Islam the official religion, and as a result the final Constitution named Islam as the official religion of Malaysia.[10]

As the religion embraced by the most populous ethnic class of Malaysia, Islam plays an important part in Malaysian politics. Islam is seen by the Malay as a subject which can not be challenged conventionally or constitutionally.

The newest format of the Malaysian Identity Card (MyKad) divides Malaysians into various religious groups, i.e. Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist. The introduction of this card caused an uproar in Malaysian politics and is deemed discriminative by non-Muslims. This issue has, however, since abated and been accepted (although unwillingly) by non-Muslims.

Currently, one of the Malaysia's states, Kelantan, is governed by PAS which is a conservative Islamic political party, with a proclaimed goal of establishing an Islamic state. Terengganu was briefly ruled by PAS from 1999 to 2004, but the ruling Barisan Nasional coalition has since won back the state. To counter Islamic fundamentalism as supported by PAS, the head of the Barisan Nasional, Datuk Seri Abdullah Badawi, has proposed Islam Hadhari.

There is also an Islamic university in Malaysia called the International Islamic University Malaysia, and a government institution in charge of organizing pilgrimages to Mecca called Tabung Haji (Pilgrim Fund Board of Malaysia). In addition to this, the government also funds the construction of mosques and suraus. [11]

Although the constitution declares Malaysia to be a secular state, there is much confusion on this subject. Several Muslims have argued, especially after former Prime Minister Mahathir bin Mohamad's declaration that Malaysia is an Islamic state, that Malaysia is in fact an Islamic state. One Member of Parliament (MP), Badruddin bin Amiruldin, has stated in the Dewan Rakyat house of Parliament that "Malaysia ini negara Islam" ("Malaysia is an Islamic state") and that "you tidak suka, you keluar dari Malaysia!" ("You don't like it, you get out of Malaysia!") Badruddin refused to retract his statement, and a motion to refer him to the House Committee of Privileges was rejected by a voice vote.[12] However, the first Prime Minister, Tunku Abdul Rahman, contradicted this stance in the 1980s, saying, "All talk on Islamic States is just an empty dream. No man in his right sense would accept a nation which bases its political administration on religion, and in a country like Malaysia with its multiracial and multireligious people, there is no room for an Islamic State." [11] In 1988, the courts rejected the argument that Malaysia was a theocratic state.[13]

Masjid Negara, the National Mosque of Malaysia.

Despite the Federal Government's denial that Malaysia is an Islamic state, the present Badawi Administration have gradually furthered the agenda of Islamic supremacy at the expense of other races and religions. The spread of Christianity is a particular sore point for the Muslim majority, and as such, the Government (despite being of a plural composition, but the Malay component, UMNO, always has the final say) typically drags its feet when it comes to approving Churches, and often they will disapprove the setting up of Churches outright. In some cases, they have even resorted to demolishing churches in Muslim-majority areas, and setting up mosques in Muslim-minority areas. The Malaysian government has also persecuted Christian groups who were perceived to be attempting to proselytize to Muslim audiences[14].

In 2004 and 2005, the government caused an uproar within the Chinese community by closing down and demolishing some ancient Chinese temples in Chinese-majority areas. In as recent as June 2006[15], the government has demolished more than 30 Hindu temples (in Hindu majority areas) that it said were built illegally. Indian leaders pointed out, however, that many of the temples dated back to British colonial rule, and the Malay government failed to legalize those temples after independence in 1957. While the non-Muslim public suspects that there is a behind the scene systematic elimination of non-Muslim religious rights in Malaysia by Islamic supremacists within the Government, the Government itself has repeatedly denied this. In 2007, the Malyasian government, in a move to ease ethnic tensions, unveiled an initiative to protect the remaining Hindu temples [16].

The government has claimed that the practitioners of other faiths are a minority compared to the Muslim population. However, surveys have consistently shown that there is still an insufficient number of churches and temples available for use by non-Muslims, compared to Muslim places of worship (such as mosques and suraus) that are everywhere whether there is a sizable Muslim population or not. Furthermore, the financing for the construction of temples and churches are seldom state-sponsored. In almost all cases, the construction or setting-up of non-Muslim places of worship are financed privately by the devotees themselves. This is in stark contrast to Muslim places of worship, which are built with public funds. The government has also given non-Muslims a hard time setting up their churches and temples despite the fact that these will be privately-financed on privately-owned land.

At the same time, the Malaysian authorities typically have a pro-Muslim bias when it comes to demographic data, and they also do not justify the construction of mosques in places where it is not needed. Local housing bylaws require that the housing developer construct mosques in every new housing area regardless of the racial and religious demographics. Furthermore, the figures for the rate of conversion to Islam are not very clear as many apostates do not bother registering with the Shariah Court for apostasy (since they are legally not allowed to leave the religion), and instead they just stop being practicing Muslims. Therefore, figures on the Muslim population of Malaysia are generally highly unreliable, as can be seen in the high number of pending apostasy applications (see below).

There is a National Fatwa Council, as part of the Department of Islamic Advancement of Malaysia (Jabatan Kemajuan Islam Malaysia, JAKIM).

Apostasy from Islam in Malaysia

In recent years this topic has started to create a debate within Malay society and politics. The most documented case was that of the Sky Kingdom which was seen as the litmus test for religious freedom.

Head of the Malaysian State of Perak Mufti (religious head) Dato' Seri Haji Harussani Zakaria announced that there are about 65,500 Muslim apostates in Malaysia in 2005. This figure includes about 10,000 Malay Muslims who have declared themselves Christians. This announcement was made on a TV Forum entitled "Pekerti Islam" in the Malaysian State of Kedah recently which was aired by RTM (Malaysian TV & Radio Department) in April 2006. Another 300,000 Muslims are in the process of filing for apostasy while the rest are filing to have their Muslim name changed to "other religion name."

It has been argued that the true number of apostates is much lower, and that the 650,500 figure is an exaggeration. One academic has said that only five hundred Muslims between 1994 and 2003 applied to the Syariah Courts to renounce their status as a Muslim, while about 7500 applied to the National Registration Department (NRD) to change a Muslim name to a non-Muslim one. Reportedly, five states (Perak, Malacca, Sabah, Terengganu, and Pahang) have made apostasy from Islam a criminal offense.[17]

See also

Notes

  1. ^ [1] Census : Department of Statistics Malaysia
  2. ^ Article 160 (2). Constitution of Malaysia.
  3. ^ Malay of Malaysia
  4. ^ "Rights Group Says Six Malaysians Detained For Being Shia Muslims", Islam Online. Accessed August 13, 2007.
  5. ^ Morgan, Adrian. "Malaysia: Heretical Islamic cult returns", SperoNews. Accessed August 13, 2007.
  6. ^ Asia Planet
  7. ^ Kent, Jonathan (Aug. 6, 2005). "Malaysia's clash of cultures". BBC.
  8. ^ Shuid, Mahdi & Yunus, Mohd. Fauzi (2001). Malaysian Studies, p. 55. Longman. ISBN 983-74-2024-3.
  9. ^ Wu, Min Aun & Hickling, R. H. (2003). Hickling's Malaysian Public Law, p. 98. Petaling Jaya: Pearson Malaysia. ISBN 983-74-2518-0.
  10. ^ Wu & Hickling, pp. 19, 75.
  11. ^ a b Putra, Tunku Abdul Rahman (1986). Political Awakening, p. 105. Pelanduk Publications. ISBN 967-978-136-4.
  12. ^ "Dewan Rakyat Hansard for 11 July 2005".
  13. ^ Wu & Hickling, p. 35.
  14. ^ Report by the Special Rapporteur on the
  15. ^ Tensions grow over Hindu temple demolitions
  16. ^ Malaysia to Protect Hindu Temples - RealTime
  17. ^ Selvarani, P. (Nov. 19, 2006). Very few have abandoned the faith. New Straits Times.

External links

Original source of this information in Malay [5]