Talk:Bridgewater Canal and List of University of Utah people: Difference between pages

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==Notable Alumni==
{{UKW|class=B|importance=high|nested=yes|mapneeded=no}}
{{boxboxtop|Famous U of U Alumni and Faculty}}
{{WikiProject Cheshire|nested=yes|class=B|importance=Mid}}
[[Image:Jake Garn.jpg|thumb|center|60px|Jake Garn]]
{{WPUKgeo|class=B|importance=Mid|nested=yes}}
<!-- Unsourced image removed: [[Image:Frank_Moss.jpg |thumb| center|60px|Frank Moss|{{deletable image-caption|1=Sunday, 27 April 2008}}]] -->
{{WikiProject Greater Manchester|nested=yes|importance=high|class=B}}
[[Image:Sen Bennett.jpg| thumb|center|60px|Bob Bennett]]
}}
[[Image:mayorrocky.jpg|thumb|center|60px|Rocky Anderson]]
== John Gilbert ==
<!-- Image with inadequate rationale removed: [[Image:David-o-mckay.jpg|thumb|center|60px|David O. McKay]] -->
[[George Albert Smith]]
[[Image:Hinckley 2007 10.png|thumb|center|60px|G.B. Hinckley]]
[[Harold B. Lee]]
<!-- Deleted image removed: [[Image:Fmbrodie.gif||thumb|center|60px|Fawn Brodie]] -->
[[Image:Orson.scott.card.JPG|thumb|center|60px|O. S. Card]]
[[Image:Alan-C-Kay2b.jpg|thumb|center|60px|Alan C. Kay]]
[[Image:Hartley ralph-vinton-lyon-001.jpg|thumb|center|60px|R. Hartley]]
[[Image:Neeleman.jpg|thumb|center|60px|D. Neelman]]
[[Image:Stephen Covey Beyond the 7 Habits.jpg|thumb|center|60px|Stephen Covey]]
[[Image:Dysonnyj.jpg|thumb|center|60px|Kevin Dyson]]
[[Image:AndrewBogutrebound.jpg|thumb|center|60px|Andrew Bogut]]
[[Image:JamalAnderson.jpg|thumb|center|60px|J. Anderson]]
[[Image:Keith Van Horn.jpg|thumb| center|60px|K. Van Horn]]
{{boxboxbottom}}
===Government===
* [[Anson Vasco Call II]] - First Mayor of [[Afton, Wyoming]] (served nine terms) graduated with the first class in [[1875]]
* [[David N. Sundwall]] - Executive Director, Utah Department of Health and former Assistant [[Surgeon General]]
* [[E. Jake Garn]] - former [[U.S. Senator]], R-UT, and [[Astronaut]]
* [[Frank Moss (politician)|Frank Moss]], former [[U.S. Senator]], D-UT
* [[Karl Rove]] - Chief political strategist and adviser to [[George W. Bush]] attended the University of Utah but never graduated.
* [[Robert Foster Bennett]] - [[U.S. Senator]], R-UT
* [[Rocky Anderson|Ross "Rocky" Anderson]] - former [[Mayor]], [[Salt Lake City]]
* [[Jon M. Huntsman, Jr.]] - Current Governor of the State of [[Utah]]


===Religion===
I have found references which suggest that James Brindley deserves less credit for the design and construction of the Bridgewater canal than he generally recieves. The chief designers and motivating forces were Francis Egerton, the Third Duke of Bridgewater and his factor John Gilbert. Indeed the aqueduct over the Irwell which Brindley was responsible for nearly collapsed and was saved as a direct result of John Gilbert's intervention. My references is, Coal, Cotton and Canals by Hugh Malet. Hugh Malet's reference is a contemporary report in the journal of Sir Joseph Banks. [[User:Martin Cordon|Martin Cordon]] 22:29, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
* [[George Albert Smith]] - former [[President of the Church (Latter Day Saints)|President]], [[The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints]]
* [[David O. McKay]] - former [[President of the Church (Latter Day Saints)|President]], [[The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints]]
* [[Harold B. Lee]] - former [[President of the Church (Latter Day Saints)|President]], [[The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints]]
* [[Gordon B. Hinckley]] - former [[President of the Church (Latter Day Saints)|President]], [[The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints]]
*[[Thomas S. Monson]] - [[President of the Church (Latter Day Saints)|President]], [[The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints]]
* [[Cecil O. Samuelson]] - President, [[Brigham Young University]]; [[Latter-day Saint]] [[General Authority]]


===Humanities===
:I've run across references that much of the intial work was done by John Gilbert nothing about the aqueduct.[[User:Geni|Geni]] 23:41, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
* [[Fawn Brodie]] - [[Historian]] and author.
* [[LeConte Stewart]] - American artist primarily known for his landscapes of rural Utah, later became head of the Art Department at the University of Utah from 1938 to 1956
* [[Orson Scott Card]] - Science fiction author
* [[Robison Wells]] - [[Novelist]]
* [[Shelby Steele]] - Author and columnist, research fellow at the Hoover Institution
* [[Vern Bullough]] - [[Historian]] and [[Sexologist]]
* [[Wallace Stegner]] - American [[novelist]]
* [[Terry Tempest Williams]] - Author, [[environmentalist]]
===Science and Engineering===
* [[Alan Kay]] - Computer scientist, recipient of the [[Turing Award]]
* [[Bui Tuong Phong]], inventor of the [[Phong reflection model]] and the [[Phong shading]] interpolation method
* [[Henri Gouraud (computer scientist)|Henri Gouraud]], inventor of [[Gouraud shading]]
* [[Calvin Quate]] - one of the inventors of the [[atomic force microscope]]
* [[Ralph Hartley]] - Co-founder of [[Information Theory]] (along with [[Shannon]] and [[Hamming]]), inventor of [[Hartley Transform]] and [[Hartley Oscillator]]
* [[Robert Jarvik]]- Inventor of artificial heart
* [[Wilbert L. Gore]] - co-inventor of Gore-tex fabrics


== BOCM? ==
===Media===
* [[Keene Curtis]] - Stage, Film and Television Actor
"the last regular traffic being grain from Liverpool to Manchester for BOCM". What is/was BOCM?? If somebody knows, could (s)he add it to the article?<br>--[[User:Jotel|Jotel]] 19:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
* [[Bill Marcroft]] - Radio and television broadcaster; Former play by play radio announcer for the Utah Utes.
*British Oil and Cake Mills, I believe, now part of BOCM Pauls a leading animal feed manufacturer. [[User:Martin Cordon|Martin Cordon]] 19:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
* [[Bob Trumpy]] - Former [[NFL]] [[tight end]] and current [[Sports broadcasting]] [[color commentator]]
* [[Bronzell Miller]] - Actor, NFL player
* [[Joseph Kearns]] - Radio, Film and Television Actor
* [[Mills Lane]] - Famous television judge and legendary boxing referee
* [[George Ouzounian]] (aka Maddox) - Humorist (attended but did not graduate)


== Images added ==
===Education===
* [[Sterling M. McMurrin]] - Former E.E. Erickson Professor of Philosophy and U of Utah administrator, U.S. Commissioner of Education, Mormon philosopher


===Business===
I have added more than a few images of this canal to Wikimedia Commons at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Bridgewater_Canal - if anyone would care to use them, please add them when you have time. [[User:Parrot of Doom|Parrot of Doom]] 20:20, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
* [[Alan Ashton]] - Co-founder of [[WordPerfect]] Corp.
== Upstream ==
* [[Dave Checketts]] - American businessman, founder [[Sports Capital Partners]]
"the stretch of the MSC upstream from here". What does 'upstream' mean for a canal? Shouldn't it be replaced by something like 'west of here' ?? --[[User:Jotel|Jotel]] 10:16, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
* [[David Neeleman]] - [[JetBlue]] founder, [[chairman]] and former [[CEO]]
:Upstream isn't necessarily wrong on many sections of canals, refering simply to the (slow) flow of water from an upper pound or towards a lower pound. In the case of the MSC, the upper reaches have no lock at the head end, and are effectively the widened and deepened [[River Irwell]], so upstream is appropriate.[[User:Mayalld|Mayalld]] 11:33, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
* [[David McGowan]] - Co-founder of [[Murray Park Dental]] also good big brother
* [[Edwin Catmull]] - Co-founder of [[Pixar]]
* [[J. Willard Marriott]] - Founder, [[Marriott International]]
* [[James H. Clark]] - Founder, [[Silicon Graphics]]
* [[John Warnock]] - Co-founder of Adobe Systems
* [[Nolan Bushnell]] - Founder of [[Atari]] and [[Chuck E. Cheese]]
* [[Stephen R. Covey]] - Business author, consultant


== Map ==
===Athletics===
* [[Alex Smith]] - [[San Francisco 49ers]] [[Quarterback]], 1st overall pick in the [[2005 NFL Draft]].
* [[Andre Dyson]] - NFL pro-bowl [[defensive back]]
* [[Andre Miller]] - [[National Basketball Association|NBA]] player, [[NCAA]] [[All-American]]
* [[Andrew Bogut]] - [[Milwaukee Bucks]] forward, 1st overall pick in the [[2005 NBA Draft]] left early for the NBA and did not graduate.
* [[Arnie Ferrin]] - Former NBA player, four-time [[NCAA]] [[All-American]]
* [[Marvin Fleming]] - NFL tight end, won 5 Super Bowl rings in the 1960s-70s
* [[Larry Wilson]] - NFL Hall of Fame member and All-Pro free safety
* [[Terry Nofsinger]] - NFL quarterback for St. Louis in 1960s
* [[Ed Pine]] - NFL center for San Francisco 49ers
* [[Eric Weddle]] - safety for the [[San Diego Chargers]]
* [[Billy McGill]] - All American basketball player and NBA
* [[Alan Holmes (basketball player)|Alan Holmes]] - All American basketball player
* [[Charles K. Monfort]] - Chairman and CEO of the Colorado Rockies [[Major League Baseball]]
* [[Chris Fuamatu-Ma'afala]] - former NFL [[running back]]
* [[Chris Shelton (baseball player)|Chris Shelton]] - MLB baseball player (1B)
* [[George Seifert]] - former NFL head coach of the San Francisco 49ers and the Carolina Panthers
* [[Jamal Anderson]] - Former [[NFL]] pro-bowl [[running back]]
* [[Jordan Gross]] - [[Carolina Panthers]] [[offensive lineman]]
* [[Keith Van Horn]] - Former [[National Basketball Association|NBA]] player
* [[Kevin Dyson]] - Former NFL [[wide receiver]]
* [[Kim Smith (Basketball player)|Kim Smith]] - [[Sacramento Monarchs]], 4 Time [[Mountain West Conference]] Player of the Year, 13th pick of 2006 [[WNBA]] Draft
* [[Luther Elliss]] - Former [[NFL]] all-pro [[defensive lineman]]
* [[Michael Doleac]]-NBA player
* [[Mike Anderson]] - [[Baltimore Ravens]] [[running back]] and 2002 [[NFL Rookie of the Year]].
* [[Scott Mitchell (American football)|Scott Mitchell]] - back-up quarterback to [[Dan Marino]] on the [[Miami Dolphins]] and later started at QB for the [[Detroit Lions]]
* [[Shona Thorburn]] - [[Minnesota Lynx]] 7th Overall pick of 2006 [[WNBA]] Draft
* [[Steve Smith (NFL)|Steve Smith]] - [[Carolina Panthers]] pro-bowl [[wide receiver]]
* [[Tom Chambers]] - Former [[National Basketball Association|NBA]] all-star
* [[Norm Chow]] - College Football Coach [[UCLA, Offensive Coordinator]]
* [[John Madsen]] - wide receiver [[Oakland Raiders]]


===Criminal===
I've been creating a map here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Bridgewater_Canal_map], but I'm stuck with the formatting. Should I stagger the features where the Manc and Runcorn arms run together, or is it possible to create a map that has text down both sides? It will be a pretty darn long map once finished, there are many many crossings. Any help would be appreciated. [[User:Parrot of Doom|Parrot of Doom]] 21:08, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
* [[Ted Bundy]] - Notorious serial killer briefly attended Utah's law school prior to his arrest and conviction for kidnapping in 1975.
:It would be possible to create another BS template to allow left hand text, but probably easier to show the branch as a separate map.[[User:Mayalld|Mayalld]] 21:39, 27 September 2007 (UTC)


== New section of towpath ==
== Notable Faculty ==
* [[Mario Capecchi]] - 2007 [[Nobel Laureate]] in Physiology or Medicine
* [[Maud Babcock]] - The first female member of the university's faculty
* [[Jan Harold Brunvand]] - Emeritus Professor of English, a well-known American folklorist and [[urban legends]] researcher
* [[Charles E. Dibble]] (1909–2002) - Distinguished Professor of Anthropology (1939–78), noted [[Mesoamerica]]nist scholar
* [[Henry Eyring]] - Renowned theoretical chemist and twenty-year dean of the graduate school


== See also ==
[http://www.leighjournal.co.uk/news/leighnews/3172773.New_Leigh_canal_walk_opened/ New bit of towpath], also : [http://www.bridgewatercanal.co.uk/bww.html Bridgewater way] [[User:Parrot of Doom|Parrot of Doom]] ([[User talk:Parrot of Doom|talk]]) 19:00, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
[[University of Utah]]


== Route ==
== Sources ==
* [[University of Utah#Notable alumni|Notable Alumni and Faculty]]


The section describing the route of the canal is all over the place. The description starts in the middle at Castlefield - although it says it terminates there, and at Worsley it sounds like it branches off towards Worsley and then Runcorn although from the map these are seperate arms and it splits and goes to Worsley one way and Runcorn the other way. It says later it goes through Sale and Lymm to Runcorn but as none of these are marked anywhere on the map it's difficult to work out where is being referred to. There is then a bit about the proposed new Mersey crossing and it's not clear where that is either. Couldn't the description begin at one end and follow the main route to the other end with sperate descriptions for the other branches?
:I'm of the opinion that the route section is entirely spurious, unless there are notable features upon it - which for the most part, there aren't. I'm on holiday right now though and the last campsite didn't have mobile coverage so I haven't been able to continue on it, but I want to get it up to GA class eventually. Being the first industrial canal it deserves to be there. [[User:Parrot of Doom|Parrot of Doom]] ([[User talk:Parrot of Doom|talk]]) 13:39, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
::I've added what info I have about the history of the Runcorn end. It would be good to get it to GA but it's got a long way to go, particularly in its formatting. The history is all over the place and needs consolidating/rewriting. Perhaps the Worsley mines and the Barton aqueduct could be in a separate Special Features section. [[User:Peter I. Vardy|Peter I. Vardy]] ([[User talk:Peter I. Vardy|talk]]) 11:41, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
:::At the moment I'm just adding things on an ad-hoc basis, but once theres enough material in there I'll probably re-write the lot into something that makes a bit of sense :) [[User:Parrot of Doom|Parrot of Doom]] ([[User talk:Parrot of Doom|talk]]) 14:55, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


[[Category:Lists of people by university in the United States|Utah]]
== John Gilbert (again) ==
[[Category:University of Utah alumni|*]]

[[Category:Utah-related lists|University of Utah people]]
I've written a short article on [[John Gilbert (agent)|John Gilbert]] which gets rid of a redlink. I found out more about him than I expected, and I suspect there is more information out there. But I'm not sure he merits the title of being the only "principal" engineer in the infobox. How about having both Brindley and Gilbert as principals and leaving the "assistant" slot empty? [[User:Peter I. Vardy|Peter I. Vardy]] ([[User talk:Peter I. Vardy|talk]]) 11:25, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
:Its not a subject I've read much about but from what I can gather there were 'questions' raised as to Brindley's expertise when it came to the construction of Barton Aqueduct? Wasn't he effectively rescued by someone else? I see no issue with putting different names in there though, fire away. [[User:Parrot of Doom|Parrot of Doom]] ([[User talk:Parrot of Doom|talk]]) 21:06, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

== Reorganisation ==

I've changed the headings and moved an image to try and make a bit more sense of what we have. I intend to extend the section on the Bridgewater Trustees and hope other editors will be able to add material after 1872. I think the first section needs some rationalisation (I changed the title because more or less all the article is "History"). When we have done this and added more info to the later sections, I think the article will have promise! [[User:Peter I. Vardy|Peter I. Vardy]] ([[User talk:Peter I. Vardy|talk]]) 13:25, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

:It looks much better now. I'm going to read through and highlight a few things that need clarification, if others could do similar we can then have a direction in which to head to GA, and on to FAC. I think using this page may be a better means of improving the article, if we start listing what we see as 'wrong' with it, so it can be noted and corrected here - to help avoid editing conflicts.

* "The Duke of Bridgewater's mines supplied the surrounding districts with coal" - ''but not the only person''
: ''done'' [[User:Parrot of Doom|Parrot of Doom]] ([[User talk:Parrot of Doom|talk]]) 23:21, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
* "persistent flooding" - ''the worsley navigable levels link doesn't contain the word flooding, so this needs a sentence to explain why it flooded''
: ''done'' [[User:Parrot of Doom|Parrot of Doom]] ([[User talk:Parrot of Doom|talk]]) 23:21, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
* "The Duke had been to see the Canal du Midi in France" - ''will be difficult to know why and find a source, I think we can only presume he had an idea about a canal, and went to see others to see how they worked''
* "and partly because it would make a link with Cheshire easier" - ''easier in what way? Presumably construction?''
: ''done'' [[User:Parrot of Doom|Parrot of Doom]] ([[User talk:Parrot of Doom|talk]]) 23:23, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
* "over the Irwell at Barton-upon-Irwell at Longford Bridge near Stretford." - ''is there a missing 'and' there?''
: ''removed'' [[User:Parrot of Doom|Parrot of Doom]] ([[User talk:Parrot of Doom|talk]]) 20:56, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
* "On 13 April 1844 The Times newspaper reported that the canal was to be emptied of water, and converted into a railway.[20] Although not unusual for this period in history, known as Railway Mania, the plan came to nothing." - ''This was a random bit of news I came across, I think it's trivial really but it might help if we could put this into better context.''
: ''moved to another section'' [[User:Parrot of Doom|Parrot of Doom]] ([[User talk:Parrot of Doom|talk]]) 23:21, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
* "In 1789 the Duke's warehouse was badly damaged by fire, and, although rebuilt, was demolished in 1960" - ''I think the time period here is too large, perhaps the latter part about destruction might be better in a 'current status' section or similar.''
: ''moved to current status section'' [[User:Parrot of Doom|Parrot of Doom]] ([[User talk:Parrot of Doom|talk]]) 20:56, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

There are also some issues with referencing, which would be easier dealt with now. I would suggest that the Harvnb template be used throughout, where referring to literary sources, especially as for FAC all sources need page numbers.

Theres nothing in the article yet about the reason for the connection to the Rochdale Canal, or the Leeds Liverpool Canal. I've come across material while doing the MBB canal that can expand upon this though so that should be fairly easy. And obviously the Leigh branch needs expanding significantly.

I've heard rumours that the canal had Manchester's first Bonded Warehouse along it's route, but haven't found any online material that proves this (other than that it was built in 1844, and isn't the Grape St one).

I think we also need a section on the design of the canal - materials used, coping stones (long sections now have none), width, depth, cuttings, embankments, aqueducts, stop-planks, etc.

Comments? [[User:Parrot of Doom|Parrot of Doom]] ([[User talk:Parrot of Doom|talk]]) 15:47, 18 September 2008 (UTC)


:The bonded warehouse in't a rumour. The following two stories which I put on the [[Port of Manchester]] talk page some time ago are from the Times online archive. This is what Malleus was referring to when he mentioned it on the GM talk page[[User:Richerman|Richerman]] ([[User talk:Richerman|talk]]) 20:46, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
{{quote|<center>FIRST ARRIVAL IN THE PORT OF MANCHESTER OF A CARGO OF GOODS FOR BOND</center>
We have great pleasure in recording the first arrival in the Port of Manchester of a vessel, with an entire cargo of wines and spirits removed in bond, and for bonding in Manchester. The vessel, a flat named the Express, was wholly laden with a valuable cargo of wines and spirits, in all about 40 tons weight, belonging to Mr. William Gibb, spirit merchant, of this town, whose active and long-continued exertions in the struggle to obtain the privilege of bonding for this great and important borough are about to be acknowledged in the form of a substantial mark of respect and gratitude by his fellow-townsmen. The Express arrived from Liverpool on Saturday evening; but it was yesterday morning before she began to unload. She is lying in the Bridgewater Canal, Knott Mill where the Duke's trustees have constructed a large bonding vault, which Mr. Gibb has taken and had licensed for the purpose, and we believe he is now removing his stock of wine and spirits from other ports to Manchester, for the greater convenienoe of sampling and sale. The lockers, gaugers, and other officers of Customs were in attendance, superintending the unloading of the vessel and thus have commenced the operations of the Manchester Custom-house. It is a gratifying circumstance that a gentleman who took so prominent a part in the struggle to obtain the boon of bonding for Manchester should the first to enjoy the fruits of its success. We hope ere long to record the general operation of the system; though it will require a little time, perhaps, as it, must have a beginning.<ref>{{citation|last=author unknown| title=First arrival in the Port of Manchester of a cargo of goods for bond| newspaper=The Times| pages=6 |year=1844 |date=10&nbsp;October 1844}}
</ref>|''[[Manchester Guardian]]''}}

<center>MANCHESTER A BONDING PORT</center> After the pressing demands which have been made by some of our principal manufacturing towns for the privileges of inland bonded warehouses for goods subject to Customs duties, it would naturally be supposed that the formation of a Custom-house establishment at Manchester would have occasioned a vast quantity of business in that extensive seat of British manufacturers; but we are informed that the result is very different from what had been expected. Although the system has been introduced into Manchester only as an experiment and a large establishment has been formed entirely of old and experienced officers; under the impression that the extent of business there would require the constant services of well tried men, we believe that, up to the present period, little trade has passed through the Manchester Custom-house and the officers’ duties are nearly approaching to a sinecure. The total annual expense of this. Establishment, exclusive of that for the Custom-house and warehouse is 2,620. The town council of the borough of Manchester, however, are made liable, under the act of the 7th and 8th of Victoria cap 81, to the charges of maintaining this establishment, and the public are thereby exonerated from the expense. - ''Observer''<ref>{{Citation|last=author unknown | title = Manchester a bonding port| newspaper = The Times | pages=2| year = 1844| date = 3&nbsp;December 1844|}}</ref></blockquote>

:That's what I'd seen - I'd forgotten about that. Knott Mill - [[Deansgate railway station]] - the same area I would presume, especially as the canal runs right past there. Finding the location, and more details, are key. With the name I may have more success, so will have a good look around. I'm wondering if it was the Interarms building, or perhaps it was much smaller than that. [[User:Parrot of Doom|Parrot of Doom]] ([[User talk:Parrot of Doom|talk]]) 20:55, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

::[http://books.google.com/books?id=onFnAAAAMAAJ&q=knott+mill+warehouse&dq=knott+mill+warehouse&as_brr=0&client=firefox-a&pgis=1 snippet here], [http://books.google.com/books?id=08zaizKj1Y0C&pg=PA130&dq=old+warehouse+manchester+bridgewater&as_brr=0&client=firefox-a&sig=ACfU3U3DRa078DTkVPwFiZIYqn3P6rH5dA#PPA130,M1 here]. The trouble is separating the Duke's warehouse from references to the 'Old Warehouse'. There are plenty of 'Knott' buildings in the area. [[User:Parrot of Doom|Parrot of Doom]] ([[User talk:Parrot of Doom|talk]]) 00:01, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

== river locks ==

''The river lock allowed vessels to enter and leave the canal on any tide. The line of locks was described as "the wonder of their time".[31] The connection to the Mersey was made on 1 January 1773.[32]'' - could this be checked? The Corbett Book, unless I mis-typed while reading it, says 10 January. Also, the infobox should be updated to reflect the locks used in Runcorn, and at Hulme Locks. [[User:Parrot of Doom|Parrot of Doom]] ([[User talk:Parrot of Doom|talk]]) 18:15, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
:Starkey definitely says January 1st. He is the major local historian and his info is usually OK. However he does not cite every entry but just puts a bibliography at the end of every chapter, so it is not possible to say whence he gets the date of the 1st (or should we just settle for "January"?). (How reliable is Corbett?) I know Bert Starkey personally, and his high standards, but he is not well at present and I would not like to trouble him. The infobox looks a bit intimidating but I may add a few details (subject to revision by those who know better). [[User:Peter I. Vardy|Peter I. Vardy]] ([[User talk:Peter I. Vardy|talk]]) 19:57, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

::The Corbett book seems to be based more on personal observation and was written around the turn of the 20th century. Its an interesting book that doesn't really give a perfect illustration of history, it does however contain lots of interesting anecdotes including the Victoria visit/horses one which I hope I can find other references to as its quite funny :). I only read it today because another editor had inserted interesting material into the MBB article, without page numbers, and for FAC I had to find out what they were. Its entirely possible I made a typo when copying the text, but as its locked in a cabinet in Bolton I don't think I'll bother going back! I'd leave it at 1 January, perhaps some hidden text for any other editors should be placed in the article?

::For the locks, its tricky - currently there are is only the Pomona lock (in use) which is [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Bridgewater_canal_entrance_to_Manchester_Ship_Canal.jpg here], then there were 10 at Runcorn, and I think just 1 at Hulme lock - and originally there were...no locks! Since the 10 at Runcorn are cut off from the canal, do we include them in the box? I will do a little test, see what you think and modify it as you wish.

::I think the article isn't far from GA now. Perhaps submit it for copyediting? [[User:Parrot of Doom|Parrot of Doom]] ([[User talk:Parrot of Doom|talk]]) 20:13, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Hadfield thinks the locks opened jan 1st (canals north west england volume 1 page 32) citeing annual register 1773 p65.[[User:Geni|Geni]] 20:20, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
::[http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0B5DAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA400&dq=sir+richard+brooke+bridgewater&as_brr=3&client=firefox-a this settles it] [[User:Parrot of Doom|Parrot of Doom]] ([[User talk:Parrot of Doom|talk]]) 22:01, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

:Originally there were 10 locks (without them the canal would have ended at Runcorn basin and would have led nowhere!). They may be cut off now, but they were essential to the operation of the canal and IMO must be included. Also IMO the article has a long way to go (but it may get a GA from someone who is ignorant about the reality, so go ahead if you wish). I think the lead needs to be rewritten; there is still stuff out of chronological order (the ''Times'' said...(do we need to include that?)); there is more to be said about the time under the Bridgewater Trustees (the first superintendent is not dead yet!); and there is very little yet about the operation of the canal post 1872. Parts of it need a re-write. But let me not deter you.... [[User:Peter I. Vardy|Peter I. Vardy]] ([[User talk:Peter I. Vardy|talk]]) 20:34, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
::PS would it be worthwhile collapsing parts of the map, like the [[Leeds and Liverpool Canal]] have done, to make it less unwieldy? [[User:Peter I. Vardy|Peter I. Vardy]] ([[User talk:Peter I. Vardy|talk]]) 20:39, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

:::I have tried, but I'm rubbish at maps - it took me an age just to do one that doesn't collapse. Believe it or not I had been trying again when I closed the browser in frustration and read this! The Leeds Liverpool provides an example, as does the Peak Forest. When I tried to do it the 'line' became staggered, so I don't know what I was doing wrong. I'd ask on the waterways wikiproject but its pretty quiet over there. I think the Times line should be there but its obviously now in the wrong place as the article has expanded significantly. My general rule for leads is that it summarises each section of the article so that does need expanding also. [[User:Parrot of Doom|Parrot of Doom]] ([[User talk:Parrot of Doom|talk]]) 20:47, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

::::It's coming along nicely. With a bit more tidying, it might be worthwhile going for GA. We can always add stuff later, when time allows or as new info comes to light. [[User:Peter I. Vardy|Peter I. Vardy]] ([[User talk:Peter I. Vardy|talk]]) 08:44, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

== Bridgewater Trustees ==

I've been adding material to this section, and trying to include just the essential stuff, but it's getting a bit long. I must say I find the material fascinating, and probably essential to understanding what was happening with respect to the prosperity of the undertaking at this tine (especially in the early 1830s). Is it getting too long? If we are looking towards FA in time (a distinct possibility IMO) perhaps we ought to include material as detailed as this. Or it could be précised with a link to a main article on the Bridgewater Trustees, although I do not think this would be the optimum plan. What do others think? The next bit will probably be about competition with the Old Quay people at both the Runcorn and the Manchester ends of the canal. [[User:Peter I. Vardy|Peter I. Vardy]] ([[User talk:Peter I. Vardy|talk]]) 16:10, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

:I think that section could only be accused of being too long when compared to the other sections as they stand now. Its certainly interesting reading. I would consider creating a new 'Bridgewater Canal Trustees' article, inserting all of the trustees information into that article, and then summarising that in the 'Bridgewater Canal' article, with a <nowiki>{{main|Bridgewater Canal Trustees}}</nowiki> to the trustees article? That way you could freely add images of the people concerned, without being worried about the number of images in the canal article. [[User:Parrot of Doom|Parrot of Doom]] ([[User talk:Parrot of Doom|talk]]) 17:04, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

::I thought of that; but the Trustees managed other things - mines, farms, lime-burning, etc. and I'm not really interested in that side. Perhaps for the time being, I'll add more stuff about the canal, then the lead editor for FA (!) can use the material as s/he thinks fit. Is that OK? [[User:Peter I. Vardy|Peter I. Vardy]] ([[User talk:Peter I. Vardy|talk]]) 18:28, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

== Deansgate Canal? ==

[http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1068538__shedding_light_on_lost_souls_from_1851 is this report] about the Rochdale, or the Bridgewater I wonder? [[User:Parrot of Doom|Parrot of Doom]] ([[User talk:Parrot of Doom|talk]]) 10:20, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

== Hulme Locks Branch ==

I've found repeated references to Hulme Hall, on the banks of the Irwell, this property and lands being owned by the Bridgewater Trustees. I'm quite sure that the Hulme Hall Locks (now disused) were built on this land. Is there anything in the trustees research to demonstrate this? [[User:Parrot of Doom|Parrot of Doom]] ([[User talk:Parrot of Doom|talk]]) 17:49, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:"Hulme Hall" does not appear in the index of Mather; sorry. [[User:Peter I. Vardy|Peter I. Vardy]] ([[User talk:Peter I. Vardy|talk]]) 20:04, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:[http://www.londonancestor.com/maps/bc-manch-s.htm This map shows 'hulme hall'] but I cannot see the building. I wonder perhaps if we should just insert a line stating that Hulme Locks were built on the land around Hulme Hall, and narrow it down at some point if more information is found. [[User:Parrot of Doom|Parrot of Doom]] ([[User talk:Parrot of Doom|talk]]) 15:57, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

== map ==

I found [http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~genmaps/genfiles/COU_files/ENG/LAN/bwtr_map4d.htm an interesting map] that predates the Leigh extension. I'm of the opinion that there are no copyright issues, would it be worth including? It came from [http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~genmaps/genfiles/COU_Pages/ENG_pages/lan.htm this page] [[User:Parrot of Doom|Parrot of Doom]] ([[User talk:Parrot of Doom|talk]]) 14:09, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

:Very interesting! The details of the map are very approximate but they do show the first positive idea (in history) to bridge the Mersey at Runcorn Gap; this was Brindley's plan to build an aqueduct across the river (how's that for courage!) and extend the Bridgewater Canal into Liverpool. It's a bit difficult to date the sketch as it does not represent Brindley's first idea, which was to enter the Mersey at Hempstones. At this stage there was no plan to link with the Trent and Mersey at Preston Brook, which is shown on the map. But the actual entry was built to the west of Runcorn Gap; to the west of the position suggested on the map. I guess this is an intermediate idea between the Hempstones terminus and the actual terminus as built. As a historical document showing a phase in the development of ideas, it's great. But I think to include it, with an explanation, would make the article as a whole too long and too complicated to be useful; I don't think there's enough room for ALL the possible ideas for its route etc. What do others think? [[User:Peter I. Vardy|Peter I. Vardy]] ([[User talk:Peter I. Vardy|talk]]) 14:59, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

::Looking at it again, I think it also shows the Stockport branch that was being 'considered', although that may be a road. [[User:Parrot of Doom|Parrot of Doom]] ([[User talk:Parrot of Doom|talk]]) 16:01, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

::Whoops, I only looked at the Runcorn end and did not scroll along to Manchester. I think it's too big to show well on a Wikipedia page. But nevertheless a wonderful find. (I think a copy of it may finish up in the archives of Runcorn Historical Society.) [[User:Peter I. Vardy|Peter I. Vardy]] ([[User talk:Peter I. Vardy|talk]]) 15:03, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

::Well there are plenty more on that page. Let me know if you think one looks ok, and I'll tidy it up and insert it. I can't see any copyright issues, they're all 70+ years dead. I'm looking for one to explain Hulme Locks into the M&I but haven't found one yet. Interestingly theres also [http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~genmaps/genfiles/COU_files/ENG/LAN/Man_1772.htm a map on that site] that shows the Old Quay, I believe at the end of Quay St in Manchester. [[User:Parrot of Doom|Parrot of Doom]] ([[User talk:Parrot of Doom|talk]]) 15:43, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Revision as of 03:47, 10 October 2008

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