Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2008 October 4 and Deaths in 2008: Difference between pages

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
< Wikipedia:Categories for discussion‎ | Log
(Difference between pages)
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
 
→‎6: fix link
 
Line 1: Line 1:
{{tocright}}
<noinclude><div class="boilerplate metadata vfd" style="background-color: #F3F9FF; margin: 0 auto; padding: 0 1px 0 0; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA; font-size:10px">
The following is a list of notable '''deaths in 2008'''. Names are listed by date of death, not the date it was announced. Names under each date are listed in alphabetical order by family name.
{| width = "100%"
|-
! width="50%" align="left" | <font color="grey">&lt;</font> [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2008 October 3|October 3]]
! width="50%" align="right" | [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2008 October 5|October 5]] <font color="grey">&gt;</font>
|}
</div></noinclude>


Please note that deaths of notable animals (that is, those animals with their own Wikipedia articles) are reported here.
=== October 4 ===
==== Category:Fictional hunchbacks ====
:[[:Category:Fictional hunchbacks]]
Another "Fictional characters by physical characteristic" category. Can you imagine how many such categories are possible? - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 21:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)


A typical entry appears in the following sequence:
*'''Delete''' - (Listify if no consensus to delete) - as nominator - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 21:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*Name, age, country of citizenship and reason for notability, established cause of death, reference.
*'''Keep''' - Being a [[:hunchback]] is hardly some random "physical characteristic", unworthy of notice. It's a gross deformity, chosen by the author as a literary device to convey a sense of grotesqueness. And unlike some characteristics, it's certainly not subjective -- all of these characters are clearly identified as hunchbacks. [[User:Cgingold|Cgingold]] ([[User talk:Cgingold|talk]]) 22:50, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
<!--
*'''Keep''' An inarguably defining characteristic for the individual included in this category. I can imagine substantial numbers of such categories, and I would keep them all if they meaningfully characterize articles by a defining characteristic. Why is that an excuse for deletion? [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 03:05, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
=============Please read before adding a name to this list=============
*'''Delete'''. If it is defining, go get some sources which state it is defining. Otherwise, it is just opinion that it is defining, and we don't do [[WP:OR|editor opinion]] on Wikipedia. I'd certainly love to see some sources regarding author intent on each member, because otherwise it seems to me there is serious analysis of primary source going on, something we don't do. If you can't do it in article space, I'll be interested to hear why you can in category space. Why should being able to imagine a vast quantity of categories mean we keep them? Do we just imagine the rules don't apply? [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 20:30, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
Only those meeting the [[Wikipedia:Notability (people)|Wikipedia notability]] guidelines are listed, with a reference to a [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable source]].
:*I find the notion that being a hunchback is somehow not a defining characteristic for such characters as [[Quasimodo]] to be intriguing, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. It is not original research to determine that a characteristic is defining. It is a function of building consensus through the [[WP:CAT]] and the [[WP:CFD]] process itself. '''Keep'''. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 04:52, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*Causes of death such as "old age" and "natural causes" should not be cited unless stated in the reference.
::*Being a hunchback does not define Quasimodo. How he is written and portrayed is what defines Quasimodo. That's the basic difference between an out of universe and an in-universe approach, and an encyclopedia takes the former approach. It is original research to voice un-sourced opinion within the Wikipedia encyclopedia. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 11:58, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:::*Yes, how the character is written and portrayed defines the character, and Quasimodo is written and portrayed ''as a hunchback''. How can it possibly be original research to simply identify a hunchback as a hunchback? And even if one were to accept the absurd notion that simple identification rises to the level of original research, there are plenty of reliable secondary sources that discuss Quasimodo, his hunched back, and what they mean. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 14:49, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::::*You've demonstrated why we should have an article on Quasimodo. I fail to see why we need a category for Quasimodo. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 15:17, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::*We don't need a category for Quasimodo. I would support the deletion of [[:Category:Quasimodo]] in a hot minute. This is a category for fictional hunchbacks, of which Quasimodo is a member. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 15:47, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::*But you have yet to demonstrate why we need such a category. At the minute, all I can see in the arguments presented is that we need it because Quasimodo is a hunchback. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 08:19, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::*Technically speaking we don't ''need'' any category. However, it is fairly standard to characterize articles based on the defining characteristics of the article's subject and, again, the member articles here are all clearly defined by being fictional hunchbacks. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 09:26, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::*But, and forgive me, this is the bone of contention. How do we define what a defining characteristic is? Personally, and I think this is pretty much supported in guidance and policy, a category should only exist if we can write an article detailing the point of categorisation. So in this instance, would we be able to write an article on hunchbacks in fiction, or fictional hunchbacks, which doesn't amount to anything more than a list of characters? Is there enough published material to support the argument that this is a recognised genre of fiction, or a well utilised trope? Or are we just saying, well, we've got Quasimodo, and look, we've got all these other hunchbacks too, let's make a category? Is it a question of, we like this so let's make a category; or, scholars have noted this theme in a number of works so let's make a category? [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 10:18, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::*But, and forgive me as well, that is why we have the consensus-building process. If we as a community, using good judgment and [[WP:SENSE|common sense]], feel that something is a defining characteristic, then the category is valid and the process has worked. Yes, there may be times when we decide that a characteristic is defining even if there is no mass body of literature behind it, and per [[WP:CAT]], while usually there should be such a body of literature to allow for writing at least a few paragraphs, CAT is a guideline and subject to the occasional exception using the aforementioned good judgment and common sense. And while you've said elsewhere that you're not in favor of deleting all fictional character by feature/characteristic categories, adopting your line of reasoning would indeed IMHO lead to the deletion of the vast majority of them. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 10:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::*I appreciate the consensus argument, but don't we look to guidance and policy to form our views as there is [[Wikipedia:There is no common sense|no common sense]]? I'm grounding mine pretty clearly, and all I'm seeing in return is what to me appears to be I Like It arguments. I mean, are we reducing the argument to being that some people would like to categorise fictional hunchbacks, and that's okay? Is that all we need in category creation, mob approval? Or is there more, is there some sort of agreed standard like [[WP:CAT]]. I don;t mind exceptions, but they need to make their case, and so far in this debate the case appears to be that it would be cool to categorise all the fictional hunchbacks together. My question, which doesn't seem to be getting any closer to being answered, is why is it cool to categorise all the fictional hunchbacks together? How does that improve the encyclopedia? What purpose does it serve? What links Quasimodo to Richard III (who by the way is a very tenuous fictional character, being based upon a real person), and what's so good about categories that it is the best way to show that link? Where's the utility, the encyclopedic scope, the sourced opinion which notes that this characteristic is of more worth than any other? [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 11:50, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' Renaming "The Hunchback of Notre Dame" to "The Bellringer of Notre Dame" was the subject of some [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/2071821.stm controversy], so I'd say it's a fairly notable disabililty in fiction. [[User:Andjam|Andjam]] ([[User talk:Andjam|talk]]) 00:11, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*:There are several things wrong with suggesting that as an analogy. But suffice to say that the concerns of purists vs. the concerns of the politically correct concerning a ''production'' have little to do with the question of whether a category should exist based upon a characteristic of a fictional character. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 18:33, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' Defining disability for several of the characters included. [[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]] ([[User talk:Dimadick|talk]]) 12:51, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:*There's only five articles in the category, one of which is a redirect. In what sense is it a defining disability rather than an authorial whim? [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 13:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - My point was that there are a '''''lot''''' of physical charactistics of characters in fiction. Some that immediately come to mind are: [[Cleft palate]], [[Conjoined twins]] (aka Siamese twins), [[Club foot]], etc. The [[Elephant Man]] (and homages thereof) is another. And that's another problem. Authors (especially in short stories, or serial fiction such as television or comics) often have characters which are based on, or homages of, previous characters. Consider how often that Quasimodo and Igor have been copied or parodied in fiction. Such characters are merely "alternate versions" or depictions "in pop culture", which should be lists, if they should be anything at all. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 15:37, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*:If there are sourced alternate versions of Quasimodo or Ygor, then put them in an alternate versions list either within the main article (the way many comics articles include sections called "Other versions" and "In other media") or in a separate list article (as, again, many comics characters have in [[:Category:Alternate versions of comics characters]]). Few if any singular alternate versions will in and of themselves have sufficient independent notability to warrant full-fledged articles so I don't think your concern is, well, concerning. "Quasimodo in popular culture" should of course be destroyed on-site since it will inevitably become a horrible trivia magnet. I can't think of any notable fictional conjoined twins off the top of my head but if there are being a conjoined twin certainly seems sufficiently defining for categorization. We've already deleted a category for fictional characters with facial disfigurements so cleft palated characters would probably fall under that and not be categorized. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 17:21, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*::Why is one "disfigurement" (to use your term) more appropriate than another? - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 17:50, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*:::"Disfigurement" was not my term, it was in the [[Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_August_13#Category:Fictional_characters_with_facial_disfigurements|name of the category]]. As for why one physical characteristic is more defining than another, again, it's the consensus of the community, jsut like every other category brought here. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 18:09, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*::::Thank you for the clarification.
*::::And I've heard of [[WP:CON|consensus]] once or twice, but telling me about it, doesn't actually answer the question.
*::::But perhaps I should clarify: Why ''do you feel that''one "disfigurement" is more appropriate than another? - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 18:15, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per nom. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 03:16, 10 October 2008 (UTC)


The intent of these pages is to report notable deaths. Tragic deaths, while unfortunate, do not necessarily make the deceased "notable". If you report the death of someone who does not already have a Wikipedia article, please consider starting one. Alphabetical order please -->
==== Category:Fictional cannibals ====
:[[:Category:Fictional cannibals]]
Well, here we have another "Fictional characters by dietary choice". (smile)


==[[October 2008]]==
At best, this should be listified in order to clarify the circumstances surrounding the "event" of cannibalism. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 21:00, 4 October 2008 (UTC)


===[[October 10|10]]===
*'''Delete''' (Listify if no consensus to delete.) - as nominator. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 21:00, 4 October 2008 (UTC)


===[[October 9|9]]===
*'''Keep''' - (ahem) We are not amused... by the idea that ''cannibalism'' is a mere "dietary choice". Seriously now, jc -- if cannibalism isn't sufficiently distinctive in your estimation to warrant categorization, then ''nothing'' is. I couldn't disagree more. And there's certainly no requirement for the circumstances to be noted, either -- that is merely your personal preference (sort of like a "dietary choice"). [[User:Cgingold|Cgingold]] ([[User talk:Cgingold|talk]]) 22:32, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
<!-- I -->*[[Francisco Ibáñez San Pedro]], 60, [[Mexico|Mexican]] [[actor]] and [[comedian]], complications of [[amyotrophic lateral sclerosis]]. [http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/545390.html] (Spanish)
*'''Keep''' - well said Cgingold. What's the point of having categories if someone with a bias opinion (no offense jc) wants to delete everything (s)he disagrees with? I think we should be targeting the most obvious/silly ones, like [[:Category:Fictional virgins]], for deletion. [[User:Sesshomaru|Lord Sesshomaru]] <small>([[User talk:Sesshomaru|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sesshomaru|edits]])</small> 22:53, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' An inarguably defining characteristic for the individuals included in this category, which goes well beyond the sneering sarcasm of categorization by "dietary choice" and has already included several dozen such articles. [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 03:07, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Keep''': While I admire the dryness of your nominator's rationale Jc37 there is no reason to delete this category. --[[User:Jupiter Optimus Maximus|Jupiter Optimus Maximus]] ([[User talk:Jupiter Optimus Maximus|talk]]) 16:03, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. There's no real valid reason that this category defines anything other than Wikipedian whim, much like a category on Fictional butterflies who like blue flowers, or even a category on people with red shoes. If there is significance in this intersection, it needs to be shown in article space through reliable sources. The lack of a well sourced article on [[Cannibalism in fiction]] tends to mean there are no sources and this intersection has no significance. If we allow this but not fictional blondes, it's a breach of the neutral point of view. If we allow this because we think it is important, it is breach of original research. If we allow this because it has been written about as important, it breaches verifiability. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 20:35, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' - seems reasonably defining for most of its included articles. There is rather an enormous difference between consuming human flesh and wearing red shoes, unless you're suggesting that [[Hannibal Lecter]]'s most memorable character trait is the equivalent of [[Dorothy Gale]]'s? A quick Google search turns up [http://books.google.com/books?id=pKNJlzb8qOkC&pg=PA151&dq=%22cannibalism+in+fiction%22&sig=ACfU3U3LYqPahrf1XVG8VjivCAjWDL5VKw The Body in Swift and Defoe] which notes on page 151 that there have been a number of articles on the theoretical implications of cannibalism in fiction, along with additional sources on the topic. This suggests that such an article can be written for Wikipedia. I see nothing in [[WP:CAT]] that forbids this category. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 04:59, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*:You have sources for the portrayal of cannibalism in fiction, not fictional cannibals. Huge difference. Further below you argue that foo in fiction is separate from fictional foo, so if that is the case your argument has no bearing on this category, which based on your comments you indicate has nothing to do with "foo in fiction". [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 11:59, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' ''cannibal film'' is a valid and once popular genre of film... so there should be fictional cannibals for the subject matter of these films. [[Special:Contributions/70.51.8.75|70.51.8.75]] ([[User talk:70.51.8.75|talk]]) 06:07, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', necessarily significant about a character. Cannibalism is such a taboo and extreme practice that it is necessarily going to be tied into other aspects of that character. Vegetarianism (category discussed below) is something that could be dropped into a casual aside in a conversation, and is really a common and unremarkable practice. Cannibalism, not so much. That tends to get noticed and remarked upon. Imagine Jules in ''Pulp Fiction'' during the Big Kahuna burger conversation&mdash;"My girlfriend's a cannibal, which pretty much makes me one too." [[User:Postdlf|Postdlf]] ([[User talk:Postdlf|talk]]) 22:23, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' Defining category for the characters included. That dietary choice is what makes them notable. [[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]] ([[User talk:Dimadick|talk]]) 12:53, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:*You're going to have to run that one by me. Isn't it the coverage in reliable sources which makes the character notable? [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 13:02, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - The main problem with this category is the problem of Wikipedia's guideines which state that fiction must be presented in [[Wikipedia:Guide_to_writing_better_articles#Check_your_fiction|literary present tense]]. So we simply can't categorise a fictional character based upon some choice or preference. Since every event is "now", a character is what they were before they chose to be (or perhaps were forced or tricked into being) a cannibal, at the same time as being who they are after becoming a cannibal. So by its very nature the category is inaccurate. And that doesn't go into the fact that the category doesn't explain the circumstances of the cannibalism. (And would someone eating the flesh of [[Solomon Grundy (comics)]] be a cannibal? There is a question of whether that character is "human". How about if the character eats a humanoid alien?) And such determinations would simply be [[WP:OR|original research]]. They require sources to define the term, the circumstances, and the application of the term. All of which can't be done in a category, and is ''another'' reason that this should be deleted. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 15:37, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*:Perhaps I'm taking your argument too far, but your interpretation of literary present tense would effectively prevent any categorization of fictional characters apart from their species. [[Batman]] could not be categorized as a superhero, detective, or vigilante, because Bruce Wayne as a child and young adult was none of those things. Is that what you're trying to say here? As that would prevent categorization of fictional characters by things that ''are'' defining (i.e., what the character is about), such an absolutist interpretation of what literary present tense requires in terms of categories does not seem very constructive. I think your concern about the definition of [[cannibalism]] is overly pedantic; it seems clear that it refers to an individual eating members of its own species. You may have a point about this category not separating those who are cannibals by nature (Hannibal Lecter) from those who are forced to commit cannibalism for survival or other reasons, but is that really a problem here? Are there a lot of characters in the latter category, and why or why wouldn't it be a problem to include them in this category? [[User:Postdlf|Postdlf]] ([[User talk:Postdlf|talk]]) 16:42, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*::''"...your interpretation of literary present tense would effectively prevent any categorization of fictional characters apart from their species."''
*::Not quite, but fairly close to that, yes. I'm affirming that categorising characters by some "in-universe" choice, opinion, or preference is inappropriate.
*::We not only have the problem of literary present tense, but also variant circumstance, variant application of a term/label/name, variant interpretations of a term/label/name, and subjective inclusion into a category by editors, without actual sources ([[WP:OR]]). And if you don't think that the last is a problem, go look at the subcats of [[:Category:Stock characters]]. Do you think that every member, or even 10% of the articles in those cats actually have sources indicating that those characters are actually those stock characters? Or do you think that editors simply added articles based on their presumption of what they felt the character was? As I've said elsewhere, if a character dresses like [[Sheena, Queen of the Jungle]], does that make them a [[jungle girl]]? And what if they change their clothes? Or what if they "come to civilization"? Should they still be categorised? Why or why not?
*:: The whole problem of ''time'' when dealing with a question of choice, opinion, and preference is simply a problem. And note that we've repeatedly deleted similar cats related to real people ([[WP:OC#OPINION]]). With the literary present tense issue, all choices of fictional character become problematic. And further, since those choices are a matter of whim by one or more authors, this is even more problematic (see also [[retcon]]). Want a big example? Is [[Superman]], [[Superboy]]? Since he may have been at one time, but apparently isn't considered so now, how should we categorise based upon that information? Wikipedia editor choice? Obviously not. Such information needs clarification and explanations and (most important) [[WP:V|verifiable]] [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. And since we can't do that in categories... - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 17:50, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*:::Whether or not a character fits a generic archetype is a rather different question of whether they are depicted as eating the flesh of their own species; what does or does not constitute cannibalism is not so open to interpretation. I also find the reduction of this to character "choice" rather absurd in this context; the category is not narrowed to "fictional characters who want to eat human flesh" any more than [[:Category:Fictional detectives]] is for characters who merely want to be detectives. The characters are or aren't depicted as such things, and we can easily identify if a character is depicted as committing cannibalism. Knowing the depicted circumstances of that cannibalism is not necessary to explain why they are included in a category that just requires that it was depicted. Note that the [[:Category:Cannibals by nationality]] schema for real people includes those who ate human flesh on one occasion or many, for purposes of survival or for anthropological curiosity, for serial killer muderous intent or for sexual arousal. Why they did it does not matter, just that they did. You can argue that a fictional character depicted as committing cannibalism is not significant to that character as a rule (which I would disagree with absent examples to the contrary), but I think your other criticisms just don't apply to this category. Perhaps if you could point out a character who was only a cannibal prior to a [[retcon]] we could better evaluate those consequences in this context. [[User:Postdlf|Postdlf]] ([[User talk:Postdlf|talk]]) 18:17, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*::::Even if we set aside the question of choice (or lack thereof), an event is an event. And we shouldn't be categorising characters by some event in their lives. Consider Characters who swam the English Channel, or Characters who circumnavigated the Earth. These should be lists, if anything.
*::::And personally, it sounds to me that [[:Category:Cannibals by nationality]] perhaps should be listified if its so broad as to include anyone who's consumed human flesh under a myriad of circumstances. But that's just a personal aside, since, "real life" events and fictional events are simply not comparable. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 18:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


===[[October 8|8]]===
==== Category:Fictional communists ====
*[[Peter Copley]], 93, [[United Kingdom|British]] [[actor]]. [http://www.rtforum.co.uk/read.php?id=242091]
:[[:Category:Fictional communists]]
*[[Bob Friend (newscaster)|Bob Friend]], 70, [[United Kingdom|British]] [[newscaster]], [[cancer]]. [http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Bob-Friend-Former-Sky-News-Presenter-Dies-Aged-70-After-Suffering-From-Cancer/Article/200810115115343?lpos=UK_News_First_Home_Article_Teaser_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15115343_Bob_Friend_Former_Sky_News_Presenter_Dies_Aged_70_After_Suffering_From_Cancer]
Another example of [[WP:OC#Opinion about a question or issue|opinion about a question or issue]]. And most of the category members should be merged to [[:Category:Fictional Soviets]] (one of its subcats). - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:56, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*[[Eileen Herlie]], 90, [[United Kingdom|British]]-born [[United States|American]] [[actor|actress]] (''[[All My Children]]''), complications of [[pneumonia]]. [http://blogs.knoxnews.com/knx/telebuddy/archives/2008/10/rip_all_my_chil.shtml]
*[[Norman Hogg, Baron Hogg of Cumbernauld]], 70, [[United Kingdom|British]] [[politician]], [[Parliament of the United Kingdom|MP]] (1979–1997), [[cancer]]. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/7659745.stm]
*[[George Emil Palade]], 95, [[Romania]]n [[cell biology|cell biologist]], [[Nobel Prize]] [[List of Nobel laureates|laureate]] ([[Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine|Physiology or Medicine]], 1974). [http://english.hotnews.ro/stiri-top_news-4703863-george-emil-palade-the-only-romanian-nobel-laureate-died.htm]


===[[October 7|7]]===
*'''Upmerge''' to [[:Category:Fictional Soviets]] as appropriate, and '''Delete''' the rest. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:56, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*[[Bruce Dal Canton]], 66, [[United States|American]] [[Major League Baseball|baseball]] player, [[esophageal cancer]]. [http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/sports/story/623808.html]
*[[George Kissell]], 88, [[United States|American]] [[baseball coach]] ([[St. Louis Cardinals]]), [[car accident]]. [http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/C8A40753ED4823BC862574DC00170C66?OpenDocument]


===[[October 6|6]]===
*'''Keep''' A defining characteristic for the individual included in this category, which is already well populated. Some of the articles should be upmerged, as appropriate [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 03:08, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*[[Peter Avery]], 85, [[United Kingdom|British]] [[scholar]] and [[Iranian studies|Iranian specialist]]. [http://www.admin.cam.ac.uk/news/dp/2008100903]
*'''Delete'''. Can see no evidence that this is defining. What defines a fictional character is not something for a Wikipedian to choose and then "summarise". We have policies against that. What defines a fictional character is a matter for research. If people feel this is a defining characteristic of some works of fiction, for after all these characters are not real, so cannot be defined in the manner some people insist, I humbly suggest, in the manner of long-standing tradition, that they publish their resource in a reliable source that we may then summarise. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 20:38, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*[[Larry Belcher]], 61, [[United States|American]] [[politician]], member of the [[Kentucky House of Representatives]] (1999–2002, since 2006), [[car accident]]. [http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081007/NEWS01/810070435/1008]
**'''Comment''' so are you saying that all categorizations of fictional characters other than "fictional character" should be removed? [[Special:Contributions/70.51.8.75|70.51.8.75]] ([[User talk:70.51.8.75|talk]]) 05:59, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*[[Kim Chan]], 91?, [[China|Chinese]] [[actor]]. [http://estate.chinanews.com.cn/hr/hrgs/news/2008/10-09/1406133.shtml] (Chinese)
***Not necessarily, although I can understand why you would think so. I'd just rather we categorised from an encyclopedic approach based on appropriate sources rather than by made up intersections. There's no thought going into the creation of these categories beyond that looks to be an interesting distinction to make. Take the hunchback example further up the page. Because we have Quasimodo, we instantly think this means we need a category. It isn;t that simple. I'm never really one for hard and fast rules, though, I tend to approach it on a case by case basis. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 12:02, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*[[Paavo Haavikko]], 77, [[Finland|Finnish]] [[poet]] and [[playwright]], after long illness. [http://www.yle.fi/news/id103711.html]
*'''Upmerge''' to fictional Soviets as appropriate per nom, although I disagree with the notion that deciding what is defining for a fictional character constitutes original research. Rather, it constitutes forming consensus under [[WP:CAT]] and [[WP:CFD]]. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 05:18, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
<!-- K -->*[[Kim Ji-hoo]], 23, [[South Korea]]n [[actor]], [[suicide]] by [[suicide_methods#hanging|hanging]]. [http://seoulfull.wordpress.com/2008/10/08/kim-ji-hoo-found-dead-in-apparent-suicide/]
*'''Comment''' - The main problem with this category is the problem of Wikipedia's guideines which state that fiction must be presented in [[Wikipedia:Guide_to_writing_better_articles#Check_your_fiction|literary present tense]]. So we simply can't categorise a fictional character based upon some choice or preference. Since every event is "now", a character is what they were before they chose to be (or perhaps were forced or tricked into being) a communist, at the same time as being who they are after becoming a comunist. So by its very nature the category is inaccurate. And that doesn't go into the fact that the category doesn't explain the circumstances of the conversion. And such determinations would simply be [[WP:OR|original research]]. They require sources to define the term, the circumstances, and the application of the term. All of which can't be done in a category, and is ''another'' reason that this should be deleted. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 15:37, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*[[Nadia Nerina]], 80, [[South Africa]]n [[ballerina]]. [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/3155126/Nadia-Nerina.html]
*'''Delete''' per nom. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 03:19, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
*[[Janaka Perera]], 62, [[Sri Lanka]]n [[general]] and [[politician]], [[explosion|bomb blast]] injuries. [http://www.dawn.com/2008/10/07/top13.htm]
*[[Glenister Sheil]], 78, [[Australia]]n [[medical practitioner]] and [[politician]], [[Australian Senate|Senator]] (1974–1981, 1984–1990). [http://news.smh.com.au/national/former-senator-sheil-dies-aged-79-20081006-4uku.html]
*[[Anne Margrethe Strømsheim]], 95, [[Norway|Norwegian]] [[Norwegian resistance movement|resistance]] member. [http://www.bladet.no/nyheter/article3834506.ece] (Norwegian)
*Sir [[John McIntosh Young|John Young]], 88, [[Australia]]n jurist, [[List of Judges of the Supreme Court of Victoria|Chief Justice of Victoria]] 1974-91, [[Governors of Victoria|Lieutenant-Governor of Victoria]] 1974-95 [http://www.theage.com.au/national/traditionalist-faithful-to-spirit-of-the-law-20081009-4xlc.html?skin=text-only]


===[[October 5|5]]===
==== Category:Fictional socialists ====
*[[Ernest Beutler]], 80, [[United States|American]] [[hematologist]], [[lymphoma]]. [http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20081007/news_1m7beutler.html]
:[[:Category:Fictional socialists]]
*[[Leopoldo Elia]], 82, [[Italy|Italian]] [[legal scholar]], President of the [[Constitutional Court of Italy|Constitutional Court]], [[Italian Minister of Foreign Affairs|Minister of Foreign Affairs]] (1994). [http://ansa.it/opencms/export/site/visualizza_fdg.html_787304395.html] (Italian)
Three members: 2 of which are actually anarchists, according to their articles, and the third is a citizen of a socialist country. This is a clear example of why to not categorise by [[WP:OC#Opinion about a question or issue|opinion about a question or issue]].
*[[Howard G. Munson]], 84, [[United States|American]] [[judge]]. [http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newyork/ny-bc-ny--obit-munson1008oct08,0,2989622.story]
*[[Ken Ogata]], 71, [[Japan]]ese [[actor]] ([[The Ballad of Narayama (1983 film)|''The Ballad of Narayama'']]), [[liver cancer]]. [http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2008/oct/07/worldcinema]
*[[Hans Richter (actor)|Hans Richter]], 89, [[Germany|German]] [[actor]] and [[film director|director]] (''[[Emil and the Detectives (1931 film)|Emil and the Detectives]]''). [http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/kino/0,1518,582287,00.html] (German)
*[[Lloyd Thaxton]], 81, [[United States|American]] [[television personality]], [[multiple myeloma]]. [http://www.latimes.com/news/obituaries/la-me-thaxton8-2008oct08,0,2214593.story]


===[[October 4|4]]===
(This nom does not include the subcat [[:Category:Fictional communists]], which is discussed above.) - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:51, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*[[Harry Bath]], 83, [[Australia]]n [[National Rugby League|rugby league]] player and [[Coach (sport)|coach]], after long illness. [http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sport/nrl/story/0,27074,24447751-14823,00.html]
*[[Ted Briggs]], 85, [[United Kingdom|British]] [[sailor]], last survivor of the sinking of [[HMS Hood (51)|HMS ''Hood'']]. [http://www.hmshood.com/crew/biography/tedbriggs_bio.htm]
*[[Craig Fertig]], 66, [[United States|American]] [[American football|football]] player and [[Coach (sport)|coach]], [[kidney failure]]. [http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/10/04/sports/FBC-Obit-Fertig.php]
*[[Alfred Gallodoro]], 95, [[United States|American]] [[jazz]] [[musician]], after brief illness. [http://bhamweekly.com/blog/2008/10/08/jazz-legend-with-deep-birmingham-connection-dies/]
*[[Levi Kereama]], 27, [[Australia]]n ''[[Australian Idol (season 1)|2003 Australian Idol]]'' [[contestant]], apparent [[suicide]] by [[Suicide_methods#Jumping|jumping]]. [http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=641998]
*[[Saul Laskin]], 90, [[Canada|Canadian]] [[politician]], first mayor of [[Thunder Bay, Ontario]]. [http://lakesuperiornews.info/News/SaulLaskin90Dies/tabid/748/Default.aspx]
*[[Peter Vansittart]], 88, [[United Kingdom|British]] [[writer]]. [http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/peter-vansittart-influential-figure-in-english-literary-life-who-brought-an-air-of-seriousness-to-the-historical-novel-955431.html]


===[[October 3|3]]===
*'''Delete''' as nominator. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:51, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*[[Zulfiqar Ahmed]], 82, [[Pakistan]]i [[cricket]]er, [[cardiac arrest]]. [http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008%5C10%5C04%5Cstory_4-10-2008_pg2_7]
*'''Delete''' per comments at debate regarding [[:Category:Fictional communists]]. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 20:39, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*[[Mahir al-Zubaydi]], [[Iraq]]i [[al-Qaeda in Iraq|al-Qaeda]] leader, [[ballistic trauma|shot]]. [http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/10/04/iraq.main/index.html]
*'''Comment''' - The main problem with this category is the problem of Wikipedia's guideines which state that fiction must be presented in [[Wikipedia:Guide_to_writing_better_articles#Check_your_fiction|literary present tense]]. So we simply can't categorise a fictional character based upon some choice or preference. Since every event is "now", a character is what they were before they chose to be (or perhaps were forced or tricked into being) a socialist, at the same time as being who they are after becoming a socialist. So by its very nature the category is inaccurate. And that doesn't go into the fact that the category doesn't explain the circumstances of the conversion. And such determinations would simply be [[WP:OR|original research]]. They require sources to define the term, the circumstances, and the application of the term. All of which can't be done in a category, and is ''another'' reason that this should be deleted. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 15:37, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*[[Györgyi Albert]], 44, [[Hungary|Hungarian]] [[journalist]] and [[Infotainment|media personality]], [[myocardial infarction|heart attack]]. [http://www.fn.hu/belfold/20081003/elhunyt_albert_gyorgyi/] (Hungarian)
*'''Delete''' per nom. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 03:20, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
*[[László Csiki]], 64, [[Hungary|Hungarian]] [[poet]]. [http://index.hu/kultur/klassz/csiki6721/] (Hungarian)
*[[Jean Foyer]], 87, [[France|French]] [[politician]], [[Minister of Justice (France)|Minister of Justice]] (1962–1967) and [[Minister of Health (France)|Minister of Health]] (1972–1973). [http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2008/10/03/01011-20081003FILWWW00406-mort-de-jean-foyer-ministre-de-de-gaulle.php] (French)
*[[Johnny "J"]], 39, [[United States|American]] [[hip-hop]] [[music producer|producer]], apparent [[suicide]] by [[Suicide_methods#Jumping|jumping]]. [http://allhiphop.com/stories/news/archive/2008/10/04/20553711.aspx]
*[[Rajendra Singh Lodha]], 66, [[India]]n [[accountant]], chairman of the [[Birla Corporation]], [[myocardial infarction|heart attack]]. [http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News_by_Industry/R_S_Lodha_dies_in_London/articleshow/3558504.cms]
*[[George Thomson, Baron Thomson of Monifieth]], 87, [[United Kingdom|British]] [[politician]], [[businessman]] and [[journalist]], [[Parliament of the United Kingdom|MP]] (1952–1973), [[infection#Bacterial or viral|viral infection]]. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7652321.stm]


===[[October 2|2]]===
==== Category:Fictional anarchists ====
*[[Bonnie Bluh]], 82, [[United States|American]] [[feminist]] [[writer]], [[aortic dissection]]. [http://www.legacy.com/NYTimes/DeathNotices.asp?Page=Lifestory&PersonId=118521026].
:'''Listify [[:Category:Fictional anarchists]] to [[List of fictional anarchists]]
<!-- C -->*[[Choi Jin-sil]], 39, [[South Korea]]n [[actor|actress]], [[suicide]] by [[suicide_methods#hanging|hanging]]. [http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/10/02/DDUK13ADDN.DTL]
This is another case of [[WP:OC#Opinion about a question or issue]]. And the list already exists. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:46, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*[[Rob Guest]], 58, [[United Kingdom|British]]-born [[New Zealand]] [[actor]] and [[singer]], [[stroke]]. [http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24434440-661,00.html]
*[[Shaharom Husain]], 88, [[Malaysia]]n [[historian]]. [http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Thursday/NewsBreak/20081002182053/Article/index_html]
*[[Arnold Klayman]], 82, [[United States|American]] inventor of the [[Sound Retrieval System]]. [http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=prnw.20081002.LATH021&show_article=1]


===[[October 1|1]]===
*'''Delete''' - as nominator. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:46, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*[[Robert Arthur (radio announcer)|Robert Arthur]], 83, [[United States|American]] [[radio personality]]. [http://www.thedailyworld.com/articles/2008/10/02/local_news/02news.txt]
*'''Keep''' A defining characteristic for the individuals included in this category. As per [[WP:CLN]], the relevant Wikipedia guideline on the subject, the list and category are intended to work together, not to be misleadingly presented as an either/or binary choice. The category should be populated with articles from the list that are not yet included here and cross-maintained. [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 03:11, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*[[Audrey Blignault]], 92, [[South Africa]]n [[writer]]. [http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=3015&art_id=nw20081001151820985C865089]
*'''Delete''' or '''Rename''' to [[:Category:Anarchism in fiction]] to better define the scope and keep consistent with [[WP:WAF|the manual of style]] which suggests an out of universe approach. It is the way anarchism is treated in fiction that is of note and it is the fact that the characters represent anarchism within a fictive work which has been commented upon, not the fact that these characters have been referred to as anarchist by other characters within that fiction. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 20:42, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*[[Ian Collier]], [[United Kingdom|British]] [[actor]] and [[singer]]. [http://www.gallifreyone.com/cgi-bin/viewnews.cgi?id=EkkFFApEuEvxUXXoDM&tmpl=newsrss&style=feedstyle]
*'''Oppose rename, unsure about keeping''' - ''Foo in fiction'' or ''Foo literature'' should not be used as dumping grounds for articles about fictional characters. They should be maintained for articles about the actual literary concepts. If it's important to keep the fictional characters within the related ''in fiction'' structure, then keep the characters subcat. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 05:16, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*[[Robert Couturier (born 1905)|Robert Couturier]], 103, [[France|French]] [[sculptor]]. [http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gxiPk6lTcfAD7acw846UCFmXSM-Q] (French)
*:Don't understand your thinking at all. ''Foo in fiction'' or ''Foo literature'' would not be used as dumping grounds. Also, I'd rather do what's best for the encyclopedia rather than an ''in fiction'' structure, whatever that is. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 12:06, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*[[Boris Efimov]], 109, [[Russia]]n [[political cartoonist]]. [http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/05/world/europe/05yefimov.html]
::*Of course they'd become dumping grounds. Renaming as you suggest tells editors to dump them there, because you've given them nowhere else to put them. But hey, I do appreciate the implication that I don't want what's best for the encyclopedia. Nice assumption of good faith there. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 14:53, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*[[Vassily Gryazev]], 80, [[Russia]]n [[weapons]] [[engineer]], [[designer]] of the [[GSh-30-1]] cannon. [http://newstula.ru/news/view/5149/] (Russian)
:::*Don't follow your logic on either point. Any category would be a dumping ground on the logic of the first point. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 15:15, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*[[Val Jansante]], 88, [[United States|American]] [[National Football League|football]] player ([[Pittsburgh Steelers]]). [http://www.legacy.com/PostGazette/Obituaries.asp?Page=LifeStory&PersonId=118272421]
*'''Keep''' The existance of a list is not a reason to delete the category covering its subjects. [[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]] ([[User talk:Dimadick|talk]]) 12:55, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*[[Detlef Lewe]], 69, [[Germany|German]] [[Canoe racing|canoeist]], [[Canoeing at the 1972 Summer Olympics|1972 Olympic bronze medalist]]. [http://www.derwesten.de/nachrichten/staedte/schwerte/2008/10/1/news-80677537/detail.html] (German)
:*You've presented no argument to keep. the existence of a list is often a valid reason to delete. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 13:04, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*[[House Peters, Jr.]], 92, [[United States|American]] [[actor]] ([[Mr. Clean]]), [[pneumonia]]. [http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gjJByrFKgrYqZ-hscJEBr359frjgD93I5EO80]
*'''Comment''' - The main problem with this category is the problem of Wikipedia's guideines which state that fiction must be presented in [[Wikipedia:Guide_to_writing_better_articles#Check_your_fiction|literary present tense]]. So we simply can't categorise a fictional character based upon some choice or preference. Since every event is "now", a character is what they were before they chose to be (or perhaps were forced or tricked into being) an anarchist, at the same time as being who they are after becoming an anarchist. So by its very nature the category is inaccurate. And that doesn't go into the fact that the category doesn't explain the circumstances of the conversion. And such determinations would simply be [[WP:OR|original research]]. They require sources to define the term, the circumstances, and the application of the term. All of which can't be done in a category, and is ''another'' reason that this should be deleted. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 15:37, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*[[Nick Reynolds]], 75, [[United States|American]] [[folk music]]ian ([[The Kingston Trio]]), [[acute (medicine)|acute]] [[respiratory disease]]. [http://www.kingstontrio.com/html/kt_news.htm]
*'''Delete''' per nom. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 03:31, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
*[[LeJuan Simon]], 27, [[Trinidad and Tobago|Trinidadian]] [[athlete]], complications of [[pulmonary hypertension]]. [http://sun-weekend.com/paper/?asw=view&asw=view&sun=101539086010032008&an=150815087110032008&ac=Sports]


==[[September 2008]]==
==== Category:Fictional fascists ====
''See [[Deaths in September 2008]]''.
:[[:Category:Fictional fascists]]
According to who? Does hyperbole count? Should we include any and every wannabe dictator?


==[[August 2008]]==
That aside, this violates [[WP:OC#Opinion about a question or issue]].
''See [[Deaths in August 2008]]''.


==[[July 2008]]==
(Note that this nom does not include the subcat [[:Category:Fictional Nazis]], which should be upmerged.) - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:42, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
''See [[Deaths in July 2008]]''.


==[[June 2008]]==
*'''Delete''' - as nominator. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:42, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
''See [[Deaths in June 2008]]''.
*'''Delete''' or '''Rename''' to fascism in fiction. I'm thinking there's a good basis for an article there, films which explore the nature of fascism include a reading of Richard the Third, which reviews would support, whilst it would be inappropriate to categorise the character itself so. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 20:47, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose rename, unsure about keeping''' - ''Foo in fiction'' or ''Foo literature'' should not be used as dumping grounds for articles about fictional characters. They should be maintained for articles about the actual literary concepts. If it's important to keep the fictional characters within the related ''in fiction'' structure, then keep the characters subcat. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 05:16, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*:Don't understand your thinking at all. ''Foo in fiction'' or ''Foo literature'' would not be used as dumping grounds. Also, I'd rather do what's best for the encyclopedia rather than an ''in fiction'' structure, whatever that is. Also, I'll point out the onus is on those who wish to keep to show sources for the significance of these categories. However, you seem to be contradicting yourself here and in the cannibal debate. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 12:07, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' About Nazis, what do you mean upmerged? You're suggesting the deletion of the parent category... [[Special:Contributions/70.51.8.75|70.51.8.75]] ([[User talk:70.51.8.75|talk]]) 06:05, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*:To a parent category "higher" up the tree/structure. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 15:37, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - The main problem with this category is the problem of Wikipedia's guideines which state that fiction must be presented in [[Wikipedia:Guide_to_writing_better_articles#Check_your_fiction|literary present tense]]. So we simply can't categorise a fictional character based upon some choice or preference. Since every event is "now", a character is what they were before they chose to be (or perhaps were forced or tricked into being) a fascist, at the same time as being who they are after becoming a fascist. So by its very nature the category is inaccurate. And that doesn't go into the fact that the category doesn't explain the circumstances of the conversion. And such determinations would simply be [[WP:OR|original research]]. They require sources to define the term, the circumstances, and the application of the term. All of which can't be done in a category, and is ''another'' reason that this should be deleted. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 15:37, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


==[[May 2008]]==
==== Category:Fictional vegetarians ====
''See [[Deaths in May 2008]]''.
==== Category:Fictional vegans ====
:'''Listify''' [[:Category:Fictional vegetarians]] to [[List of fictional vegetarians]]
:'''Merge''' [[:Category:Fictional vegans]] to the list target above.
Another category based on what a character may choose to eat. More problems with literary present tense. What if the person changes their mind? This should be a list.


==[[April 2008]]==
And while there may be a difference between a vegetarian and a "vegan", that can be noted in a list. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:36, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
''See [[Deaths in April 2008]]''.


==[[March 2008]]==
*'''Listify''' as nominator. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:36, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
''See [[Deaths in March 2008]]''.


==[[February 2008]]==
*'''Keep''' A defining characteristic for the individuals included in these categories. I fully support the creation of corresponding lists to match these categories, as recommended in [[WP:CLN]]. No policy justification has been offered for deletion. [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 03:12, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
''See [[Deaths in February 2008]]''.
*'''Delete''' per original research, neutral point of view and verifiability. Take your pick. IF this intersection is more significant that fictional blondes, source it and show that it is fictional vegans and vegetarians rather than the way vegetarianism and veganism is portrayed in foction which is the important thing. No objection to a change in scope for the category or listification providing sources exist. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 20:45, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
:*If the character is described in the associated fiction as vegetarian or vegan, then this does not constitute a violation of OR, NPOV or V. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 05:15, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::*Yes it does. Talk me through the process. Show me how you determine whether a character is described in the associated fiction as vegetarian or vegan. I'll point out exactly where you breach the thrust of the core principle of Wikipedia, that we do not make assertions of our own, since our assertions cannot be trusted. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 12:11, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:::*I read a book called ''Mary the Vegetarian''. In it, Mary the Vegetarian says on page 3, "I am a vegetarian." Boom, fictional vegetarian. Quote the text from the book in Mary's article and plop her in the category. No original research required unless you're suggesting that reading a book and reporting on what's written in it rises to the level of original research (in which case all quotes from books will need to be removed from all book and book character articles, which is clearly absurd). No NPOV problem since the character is clearly and unambiguously identified as a vegetarian. No V problem because anyone who cares to may verify that on page 3 Mary does indeed say that she's a vegetarian. Writing about fiction always includes using the original fiction itself as a source, per [[WP:WAF]]. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 15:00, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::::*Okay, to start, we haven't got an article on the character Mary the vegetarian, because we don't have any reliable secondary sources discussing the character. I also think we've loaded the debate here by starting with an example in which the title of the work just miraculously contains the magic term we want. But here's where it is original research and giving undue weight to one sentence in a published book, ''Mary the Vegetarian'', a book which contains seven million, three hundred and twenty seven thousand and forty-two sentences. None of which mention she is a vegetarian, but a number of which read "I wear blue shoes.", specifically on pages 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 11, and so on. The book also contains a number of chapters, titled variously things like "Mary Wears Blue Shoes on Monday" and "Mary Wears Blue Shoes on Thursday". So either we create the category "fictional blue shoe wearers", or you are asserting that being described in a book as a vegetarian is of more importance than wearing blue shoes, in clear breach of the thrust of the three content policies, specifically: not giving undue weight; not interpreting primary source; and the reliance on third party sources for claims. Hope that clarifies. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 15:27, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::::*Oh, and I'd also point out we're discussing category space here, not article space. There is no need to remove quotes from articles as long as they comply with our policies. You seem to be confusing category creation with writing an article. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 15:29, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::*Who says there are no reliable sources that discuss Mary independent of the book itself? For all you know, there's an entire Maryana out there that rivals the scholarly discourse on the Buffyverse. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 15:52, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::*But anyway, I really don't care if these cats get deleted or not so I'm not going to focus any more time on this discussion. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 15:58, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', trivia. I disagree that this is typically a defining trait of a character. How many of the included entries mention the character's vegetarianism or veganism in the introductory paragraphs? For how many of the included entries is it a recurring and/or significant theme in that character's depictions? [[User:Postdlf|Postdlf]] ([[User talk:Postdlf|talk]]) 22:15, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Keep'' [[Vegetarianism]] is not a trivial practice. [[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]] ([[User talk:Dimadick|talk]]) 12:56, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:*In what sense isn't it? [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 13:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:*Whether it is or isn't for real people is a different matter from whether it is or isn't for fictional characters. [[User:Postdlf|Postdlf]] ([[User talk:Postdlf|talk]]) 14:13, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - The main problem with this category is the problem of Wikipedia's guideines which state that fiction must be presented in [[Wikipedia:Guide_to_writing_better_articles#Check_your_fiction|literary present tense]]. So we simply can't categorise a fictional character based upon some choice or preference. Since every event is "now", a character is what they were before they chose to be (or perhaps were forced or tricked into being) a vegetarian or vegan, at the same time as being who they are after becoming a vegetarian or vegan. So by its very nature the category is inaccurate. And that doesn't go into the fact that the category doesn't explain the circumstances of the conversion. (For example, plant-creatures who live on a planet of no fauna would be (presumably) vegetarians due to circumstance.) And such determinations would simply be [[WP:OR|original research]]. They require sources to define the term, the circumstances, and the application of the term. All of which can't be done in a category, and is ''another'' reason that this should be deleted. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 15:37, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


==[[January 2008]]==
==== Category:Planet devourers ====
''See [[Deaths in January 2008]]''.
:[[:Category:Planet devourers]]
No, no, no, no, no.


==External links==
Three members: Galactus, an Amalgam version of Galactus, and an Homage to Galactus. All that is required is to note that each is a "planet devourer" in each article. This should ''not'' be a category.
{{wikinewshas|[[wikinews:Portal:Obituaries|recent obituaries]] for}}
*English language obituaries on the Web
**General
***[http://obituaries.com/ Obituaries.com]
***[http://www.legacy.com/Legacy.asp?Page=APStories Recent AP Obituaries]
***[http://www.variety.com/index.asp?layout=more_people&categoryId=25 Variety Magazine Obituaries]
**US
***[http://www.nytimes.com/pages/obituaries/ ''The New York Times'': Obituaries]
***[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/metro/obituaries/index.html ''Washington Post'': Obituaries]
***[http://www.boston.com/news/globe/obituaries/ ''The Boston Globe'': Obituaries]
***[http://www.latimes.com/news/obituaries/ ''Los Angeles Times'': Obituaries]
**South Africa
***[http://www.mg.co.za/section/obituaries ''Mail & Guardian'' (South Africa) Obituaries]
**UK
***[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?menuId=6526&menuItemId=-1&view=HEADLINESUMMARY&grid=F7&targetRule=10 ''The Daily Telegraph'': Obituaries]
***[http://www.guardian.co.uk/obituaries/ ''The Guardian'': Obituaries]
***[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/ ''The Independent'': Obituaries]
***[http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/obituaries/ ''The Times'': Obituaries]
***[http://news.scotsman.com/newsfront.aspx?sectionid=8403&IsTopic=1 ''The Scotsman'': Obituaries]
***[http://www.lastingtribute.co.uk/ ''Lasting Tribute'': Obituaries]
**Australia
***[http://www.smh.com.au/obituaries/ ''The Sydney Morning Herald'' (Australia): Obituaries]


*Specialized websites
(Do we really want to be categorising fictional characters by what they ''eat''? : ) - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:30, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
**[http://www.deadoraliveinfo.com/ Dead or Alive]
**[http://www.deadpeople.info/ Dead People Server]
**[http://www.deathlist.net Death List]
**[http://www.born-today.com/Choose_dDay.htm Died Today]
**[http://www.einsiders.com/features/columns/2008obituaries.php Entertainment Insiders]
**[http://www.famousdeaddb.com/ Famous Dead Database]
**[http://www.findagrave.com/ Find a Grave]
**[http://www.lifeinlegacy.com/ Life In Legacy]
**[http://www.vipatients.com/ Very Important Patients]
**[http://writerobits.livejournal.com/ Writers We've Lost]
**[http://www.theliterarycemetery.co.uk/ Written in Stone - Literary deaths]


For earlier deaths, see [[Deaths in 2007]], [[Deaths in 2006]], [[Deaths in 2005]], [[Deaths in 2004]], [[Deaths in 2003]], [[Deaths in 2002]], [[Deaths in 2001]], [[2000#Deaths|2000]], [[1999#Deaths|1999]], [[1998#Deaths|1998]], [[1997#Deaths|1997]], [[1996#Deaths|1996]], [[1995#Deaths|1995]], [[1994#Deaths|1994]], [[1993#Deaths|1993]], [[1992#Deaths|1992]], [[1991#Deaths|1991]], [[1990#Deaths|1990]], [[1989#Deaths|1989]], [[1988#Deaths|1988]], ...
*'''Delete''' - as nominator. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:30, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Neutral, leaning to delete''' This seems to be an exceedingly narrow category. I will change to delete unless there is some evidence provided that this category goes much beyond the three articles already included there. [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 03:14, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' – this was discussed at [[Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_July_21#Category:Planet_devourers|cfd in July]]. If a non-fictional person occasionally devoured worlds I would expect it would not be classed merely as a 'dietary preference'. [[User:Occuli|Occuli]] ([[User talk:Occuli|talk]]) 16:12, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', limited categorisation. Can be covered in one article, Galactus. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 20:50, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - for the same reasons I nominated it previously. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 04:35, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*If kept (I don't care), should be renamed to [[:Category:Fictional planet devourers]]. I'm totally serious. [[User:Postdlf|Postdlf]] ([[User talk:Postdlf|talk]]) 21:20, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
*:True. There are examples of Planet Devourers in mythology. [[Fenric]] from [[Norse]] mythology for example wanted to devour the world I believe, as did The [[Leviathan]] from [[Judeo Christianity]]. --[[User:Jupiter Optimus Maximus|Jupiter Optimus Maximus]] ([[User talk:Jupiter Optimus Maximus|talk]]) 21:53, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
*::If kept, I agree with the rename. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 01:43, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
*:::If renamed, that's not the right name. Does it mean "(Fictional) (planet devourers)" as in "fictional characters who devour planets? Or "(Fictional planet) (devourers)" as in "beings that devour fictional planets"? Sorry, a confusing title from a grammatical/English standpoint. --[[User:IllaZilla|IllaZilla]] ([[User talk:IllaZilla|talk]]) 01:57, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per nom. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 03:22, 10 October 2008 (UTC)


<div class="plainlinks selfreference">{{Contents pages (footer box)}}</div>
==== Category:Fictional parents who killed their children ====
:[[:Category:Fictional parents who killed their children]]
Only 2 members to the category. And it's another category categorising a fictional character by some action they decided to choose to do. How is this different than "Fictional characters who killed ''someone''"? Crime fiction, and Mystery fiction is filled with such characters.


[[Category:2008 deaths|*2008-05]]
Note that other such examples are often homages or based on the story of Medea (one of the two characters listed). - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:25, 4 October 2008 (UTC)


[[ar:وفيات 2008]]
*'''Delete''' - as nominator. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:25, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
[[cy:Marwolaethau diweddar]]
*'''Comment''' I created the category as Medea was previously in [[:Category:Parents who killed their children]], which seemed to be mixing fiction with non-fiction. Does the nominator think that that category should be deleted as well? With regards to the size of the category, it's only 2 weeks old, so it's unsurprising that it's underpopulated. [[User:Andjam|Andjam]] ([[User talk:Andjam|talk]]) 23:27, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
[[de:Nekrolog 2008]]
*'''Comment''' Given the strong feelings about [[infanticide]], there is ample justification to consider such individuals differently from other fictional killers. Are there enough articles to meaningfully expand this category? [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 03:18, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
[[et:In memoriam 2008]]
*'''Keep''' A defining characteristic, and to mirror the real world cat of [[:Category:Parents who killed their children]]. '''[[User:Lugnuts|<font color="002bb8">Lugnuts</font>]]''' ([[User talk:Lugnuts|talk]]) 08:41, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
[[el:Θάνατοι το 2008]]
*'''Delete''', since it was created solely to house one article, and currently holds two. It's also very hard to pin-point, given we are referring to something from the age of myth here, whether Medea is in any way a real or fictional person with any degree of certainty. I'm struggling to understand on what basis we can claim there is justification to consider some possible fictional characters differently from others based on strong feelings. I think there are clear lines drawn by Wikipedia policy which get crossed when we do that. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 20:55, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
[[es:2008#Fallecimientos]]
*'''Comment''' - The main problem with this category is the problem of Wikipedia's guideines which state that fiction must be presented in [[Wikipedia:Guide_to_writing_better_articles#Check_your_fiction|literary present tense]]. So we simply can't categorise a fictional character based upon some choice or preference. Since every event is "now", a character is what they were before they chose to be (or perhaps were forced or tricked into being) a "child-killer", at the same time as being who they are after becoming a "child-killer". So by its very nature the category is inaccurate. And that doesn't go into the fact that the category doesn't explain the circumstances of the events. And such determinations would simply be [[WP:OR|original research]]. They require sources to define the term, the circumstances, and the application of the term. (Is it an editor, the primary source, other sources, or who, who apply such a label to the character?) All of which can't be done in a category, and is ''another'' reason that this should be deleted. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 15:37, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
[[fr:Décès en 2008]]
*'''Keep''' per Lugnuts. [[User:NorthernThunder|NorthernThunder]] ([[User talk:NorthernThunder|talk]]) 20:20, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
[[id:Daftar tokoh yang meninggal dunia pada tahun 2008]]
*'''Delete''' per nom. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 03:23, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
[[it:Morti nel 2008]]

[[hu:Halálozások 2008-ban]]
==== Category:Fictional lovers ====
[[nl:Lijst van personen overleden in 2008]]
:[[:Category:Fictional lovers]]
[[ja:訃報 2008年]]
Not only does this have similar problems to "fictional duos" below, but really, fictional lovers? Romance in fiction is a '''''large''''' genre, encompassing romantic comedy, through Romantic tragedy, and everything in between. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:20, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
[[no:Nylig avdøde]]

[[pl:Zmarli w roku 2008]]
*'''Delete''' - as nominator. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:20, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
[[pt:Anexo:Falecidos em 2008]]
*'''Comment''' I'm still unsure what this category is supposed to include. Articles about pairs of lovers or all articles about any character who was in love? [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 03:19, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
[[ru:Список умерших в 2008 году]]
*'''Delete''' as far too broad in scope. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 20:55, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
[[fi:Äskettäin kuolleita]]
*'''Delete''', meaninglessly vague/overbroad. [[User:Postdlf|Postdlf]] ([[User talk:Postdlf|talk]]) 16:38, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
[[sv:Nyligen avlidna]]
*'''Delete''' Non-defining characteristic. Should we include any character who has had a love interest or two? [[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]] ([[User talk:Dimadick|talk]]) 12:59, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
[[zh-yue:2008年死]]
*'''Comment''' - The main problem with this category is the problem of Wikipedia's guideines which state that fiction must be presented in [[Wikipedia:Guide_to_writing_better_articles#Check_your_fiction|literary present tense]]. So we simply can't categorise a fictional character based upon some choice or preference. Since every event is "now", a character is what they were before they chose to be (or perhaps were forced or tricked into being) lovers, at the same time as being who they are after becoming lovers. So by its very nature the category is inaccurate. And that doesn't go into the fact that the category doesn't explain the circumstances thereof. And such determinations would simply be [[WP:OR|original research]]. They require sources to define the term, the circumstances, and the application of the term. All of which can't be done in a category, and is ''another'' reason that this should be deleted. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 15:37, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
[[zh:Portal:逝世公告]]
*'''Delete''' per nom. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 03:23, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

==== Category:Fictional duos ====
:[[:Category:Fictional duos]]
Categorising because they have a pal? And what if the duo becomes a trio?

Pairs (both heroes and villains) is just incredibly common in fiction.

This is so common, that vaudeville (and radio, and television, and film, and, and and...) performers would use the "duo" for "double billing". "You get two for the price of one".

And categorising merely because there are 2 of something violates [[WP:OC#Arbitrary inclusion criterion]]. (As I said above, why not trios? Quartets? etc.) - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:16, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' - as nominator. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:16, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' - Good grief, jc -- didn't you even look at the ''titles of the articles''? This category isn't for characters who happen to "have a pal", as you suggest. It's clearly for '''duos''' who are ''noted as such in the titles'' of the articles -- which are ''joint bios'', as it were. If you really can't see why it's entirely valid for such articles to be grouped together in a category, then I truly fear that your case of ''categoritis antagonisticus'' has reached such a stage of severity that you may be beyond the remedies of modern medical science. (I truly hope not, you poor dear!) <code>Notified creator with <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Template:cfd-notify|subst:cfd-notify]]}}</code> [[User:Cgingold|Cgingold]] ([[User talk:Cgingold|talk]]) 23:05, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' A strong defining characteristic for the couples included in this category. There are already dozens of articles in the parent and subcategories all of which seem to clearly fit the double bill. [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 03:22, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' articles in the category do not characterize a single character, but a pair of them. [[Special:Contributions/70.51.8.75|70.51.8.75]] ([[User talk:70.51.8.75|talk]]) 06:01, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' This is a subcategory of category "Duos" which contains combined bios. Should be kept for consistency reasons. [[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]] ([[User talk:Dimadick|talk]]) 13:00, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - We seriously are suggesting to "keep" a category because the category members are articles about 2 characters? [[WP:OC#Arbitrary inclusion criterion]] comes to mind. Why 2, and not 3? or 4? The [[Fantastic Four]] come to mind. And should we categorise the [[Avengers (comics)|Avengers]] under fictional sextets? I understand that this may be well-meant, but this is just a bad idea. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 15:37, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*:No, it's not a bad idea, because the category is serving only to capture those articles that are specifically written about a unit of two characters because they are notable only as a unit and not as individuals. It's a convenient way of tracking fictional character units of two that are written about only as units of two, not unlike how [[:Category:Multiple people]] captures actual people who are written about as a whole rather than as individuals. '''Keep''', by the way. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 17:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*::I find these comments odd considering your comments at: [[Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_October_3#Category:Country_quartets]] and [[Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_October_3#Category:Country_trios]]. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 18:12, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*:::I don't know why. I would support the deletion of [[:Category:Fictional country music quartets]] just as readily as its real-life counterpart and I supported keeping and renaming [[:Category:Country music duos]] during its CFD. My position is perfectly internally consistent. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 18:34, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*::::Would you clarify the distinction of your "perfectly internally consistent" position.? - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 18:56, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::*Would you clarify where you believe the internal inconsistency lies? You brought it up. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 19:02, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. I hadn't commented on this one, but I think this is doing a different job to the other categories. I wouldn't mind renaming to Duos in fiction to match the ''in fiction'' standard, but that may be a debate for another day. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 19:44, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' as long as it contains articles about duos eg. [[Batman and Robin]] but not [[Batman]] and [[Robin]]. [[User:Tim!|Tim!]] ([[User talk:Tim!|talk]]) 19:31, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

==== Category:Fictional drug users ====
<div class="boilerplate metadata vfd" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''

:''The result of the discussion was:'' '''Already Deleted''' by [[User:Anthony Appleyard]]. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 16:00, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:[[:Category:Fictional drug users]]
This could be anything from [[Hourman]] and his Miraclo pills, to [[Bane (comics)]] and his use of Venom. The problems are several, including listerary present tense. Even though Bane (last I read) no longer uses venom, he did at one time, and so would belong in this category. This one of the many problems with categorising characters by something they may "currently" choose to do or to not do. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:09, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' - as nominator. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:09, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' This category could only be meaningful if it explained what the inclusion criteria were. A number of characters from TV programs and cartoons who used drugs in one episode or a brief story arc are included, as are some where the drug use seems to be a more defining characteristic. [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 03:24, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Speedy delete''' - re-creation of [[Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_May_9#Category:Fictional_drug_users|previously deleted content]]. Otherwise delete as overly broad and in most cases non-defining. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 15:33, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Speedy delete''' as re-creation or delete as too broad. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 20:57, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Speedy delete''' blatant recreation of deleted cat. [[User:Sesshomaru|Lord Sesshomaru]] <small>([[User talk:Sesshomaru|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sesshomaru|edits]])</small> 21:15, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
----
:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==== Category:Fictional characters who are their own ancestors ====
:*[[:Category:Fictional characters who are their own ancestors]]
There are several books in science fiction involving time travel, and temporal paradoxes. And every case is different.

Even if deletion is opposed, this should be a '''list''' to explain each set of circumstances. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' - as nominator. (Listify, if no consensus to delete.) - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' A defining characteristic, but further evidence that this is a broader fictional device would be needed to better justify a category. [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 03:27, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' A defining characteristic, certainly in the case of Fry and Lister. '''[[User:Lugnuts|<font color="002bb8">Lugnuts</font>]]''' ([[User talk:Lugnuts|talk]]) 08:38, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' certainly not defining characteristics of either Fry or Lister in my opinion, and if we now argue about opinion we've passed through into original research. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 20:56, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. This is a common time travel paradox, similar to the [[grandfather paradox]]. Not unique or defining to any characters where it applies. [[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]] ([[User talk:Dimadick|talk]]) 13:04, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per nom. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 03:25, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

==== Category:Fictional cryonically preserved characters ====
:*[[:Category:Fictional cryonically preserved characters]]
[[Han Solo]], [[Captain America]], [[Philip J. Fry]] - what do these all have in common? They were frozen "somehow". If kept, this should seriously be a list, in order to indicate ''how'' and under what circumstances they were "frozen". - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' (Listify, if no consensus to delete.) - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' - I think the category is pretty much self-explanatory. If you notice, every character listed underwent some form of [[cryopreservation]] or [[Stasis (fiction)|hypersleep]] during some period(s) of their lives. What I'm trying to figure out is whether [[InuYasha (character)|InuYasha]] should belong here, given that he was put under a spell which caused him to "sleep" for half a century, and did not age or anything. Is there a better name that could be suited for this category? [[User:Sesshomaru|Lord Sesshomaru]] <small>([[User talk:Sesshomaru|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sesshomaru|edits]])</small> 22:31, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' A strong defining characteristic for the individuals included in this category that is already well populated. A corresponding list should be created per Jc37's suggestion, in keeping with [[WP:CLN]]'s guideline on lists and categories working together in synergistic fashion. [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 03:29, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Upmerge to Category:Cryonics in fiction''' since this category invites speculation and in-universe thinking. These characters are not real. Things which happen to them are likewise not real. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 21:23, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose upmerge, unsure about keeping''' - ''Foo in fiction'' or ''Foo literature'' should not be used as dumping grounds for articles about fictional characters. They should be maintained for articles about the actual literary concepts. If it's important to keep the fictional characters within the related ''in fiction'' structure, then keep the characters subcat. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 05:13, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*:I;ve responded to this comment from Otto further up the page, I can't see any value in cutting and pasting it ad nauseum. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 12:12, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' Defining characteristic for either of the three, common fictional trope. [[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]] ([[User talk:Dimadick|talk]]) 13:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - The main problem with this category is the problem of Wikipedia's guideines which state that fiction must be presented in [[Wikipedia:Guide_to_writing_better_articles#Check_your_fiction|literary present tense]]. So we simply can't categorise a fictional character based upon some choice or preference. Since every event is "now", a character is what they were before they chose to be (or perhaps were forced or tricked into being) cryonically preserved, at the same time as being who they are after becoming cryonically preserved. So by its very nature the category is inaccurate. And that doesn't go into the fact that the category doesn't explain the circumstances of the cryogenic preservation. And such determinations would simply be [[WP:OR|original research]]. They require sources to define the term, the circumstances, and the application of the term. All of which can't be done in a category, and is ''another'' reason that this should be deleted. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 15:37, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

==== Category:Executed fictional characters ====
:*[[:Category:Executed fictional characters]]
Right. The number of characters executed in fiction is voluminous. It's a common occurence at the end of a novel, or serial. And in the case of [[comic book death]]s, it may not even mean much. If no consensus to delete, this should be a list, at the very least, so that the characters may be grouped by type of execution, and potentially, how long they "stayed dead" before their resusitation. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' - as nominator. (Listify, if no consensus to delete.) - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - redundant cat. [[User:Sesshomaru|Lord Sesshomaru]] <small>([[User talk:Sesshomaru|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sesshomaru|edits]])</small> 21:33, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' as requiring bias, speculation or original research to so categorise. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 21:30, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
:*Oh good grief. I don't care if this category stays or goes but I must note that whether or not a fictional character is executed within that character's fiction is not subject to bias, speculation or original research. Taking just one example, [[Fagin]], a simple Google book search turns up, amongst innumerable other independent reliable sources, [http://books.google.com/books?id=DLA1AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA198&dq=%22fagin%22+%22hanged%22 this one], which includes the sentence "Yet because Dickens had Fagin hanged and die a most miserable death, thereby providing that the wages of sin must inevitably be death and punishment, his book is never censored." Boom, reliable secondary source that Fagin is an executed fictional character. No bias, no speculation, no original research, not even dependence on the original fiction as a source. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 08:11, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::*Oh good grief, see the conversations elsewhere on the page. You're demonstrating things about articles, not categories. That [[Fagin]] was executed is a fact that should be in article space, it doesn't justify it being in category space. Show why we need the category, not why we add things to an article. Oh, and let's not make the blanket assertion that "whether or not a fictional character is executed within that character's fiction is not subject to bias, speculation or original research." It's a basic principle of fiction that it is open to interpretation, so suggesting otherwise is unproductive. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 08:27, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - The main problem with this category is the problem of Wikipedia's guideines which state that fiction must be presented in [[Wikipedia:Guide_to_writing_better_articles#Check_your_fiction|literary present tense]]. So we simply can't categorise a fictional character based upon some choice or preference. Since every event is "now", a character is what they were before they chose to be (or perhaps were forced or tricked into being) executed, at the same time as being who they are after becoming executed. (Presumably dead : ) - So by its very nature the category is inaccurate. And that doesn't go into the fact that the category doesn't explain the circumstances of the execution. And such determinations would simply be [[WP:OR|original research]]. They require sources to define the term, the circumstances, and the application of the term. All of which can't be done in a category, and is ''another'' reason that this should be deleted. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 15:37, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

==== Category:Fictional refugees ====
:*[[:Category:Fictional refugees]]
:''"...a [[refugee]] is a person who: 'owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion, is outside the country of their nationality, and is unable to or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail him/herself of the protection of that country.'"''
From where, to where? And "fear" is in the eye of the beholder. How often is a fictional character (due to story conflict needs) "afraid", and flees their home? This should clearly be a list. (Though I'm not opposed to deletion for the same reasons.) - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' (Listify, if no consensus to delete.) - as nominator. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' A defining characteristic of the individuals included. As with every single category in existence, reliable sources need to be provided showing that the character is described accurately, in this case as a "refugee" in the source material or in a secondary source about the material. A corresponding list should be created to assist readers in navigation, per [[WP:CLN]]. [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 03:32, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' since it is impossible to categorise so without bias, speculation or original research, unless we intend to categorise based on every plot point point and primary source description. If this is defining, show sources where reliable secondary sources make that claim. Show reliable secondary sources which would allow an article to be written on the use of refugees in fiction. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 21:29, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' Defining characteristic. Not convinced there is any bias in following fictional representations of an all too common reality. [[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]] ([[User talk:Dimadick|talk]]) 13:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - The main problem with this category is the problem of Wikipedia's guideines which state that fiction must be presented in [[Wikipedia:Guide_to_writing_better_articles#Check_your_fiction|literary present tense]]. So we simply can't categorise a fictional character based upon some choice or preference. Since every event is "now", a character is what they were before they chose to be (or perhaps were forced or tricked into being) a refugee, at the same time as being who they are after becoming a refugee. So by its very nature the category is inaccurate. And that doesn't go into the fact that the category doesn't explain the circumstances of the events. And such determinations would simply be [[WP:OR|original research]]. They require sources to define the term, the circumstances, and the application of the term. All of which can't be done in a category, and is ''another'' reason that this should be deleted. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 15:37, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

==== Category:Fictional Holocaust survivors ====
:*'''Listify''' [[:Category:Fictional Holocaust survivors]] to [[List of fictional Holocaust survivors]]
Categorising based on a character's past is probably not a good idea. Often a character's past is merely one of many tools in which the author uses to add conflict and/or tension to a story. And fiction is malleable based on the whims of an author. (See also [[Retcon]].) This should be a list. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

*'''Listify''' - as nominator. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Listify''' or '''Upmerge to Category:Holocaust literature''', I'm not sure how you have a fictional Holocaust survivor, nor what makes one fictional holocaust greater than another. Certainly some creators will have created fictive holocausts to deal with issues regarding the actual Holocaust. Look at [[Maus]]. Look even at [[Dhalgren]], thought to be in part allegorical on the Jewish Holocaust. Do characters which survive that holocaust become survivors of the Jewish Holocaust, despite not even fictively being a part? [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 21:18, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose upmerge, unsure about keeping''' - ''Foo in fiction'' or ''Foo literature'' should not be used as dumping grounds for articles about fictional characters. They should be maintained for articles about the actual literary concepts. If it's important to keep the fictional characters within the related ''in fiction'' structure, then keep the characters subcat. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 05:08, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:*See comments further up page. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 12:13, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' If not categorizing by a character's past, categorizations itself seems meaningless. This little detail of their past is usually intended as a defining trait. [[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]] ([[User talk:Dimadick|talk]]) 13:09, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - The main problem with this category is the problem of Wikipedia's guideines which state that fiction must be presented in [[Wikipedia:Guide_to_writing_better_articles#Check_your_fiction|literary present tense]]. So we simply can't categorise a fictional character based upon some choice or preference. Since every event is "now", a character is what they were before they chose to be (or perhaps were forced or tricked into being) a victim of the Holocaust, at the same time as being who they are after becoming a survivor of the Holocaust. So by its very nature the category is inaccurate. And that doesn't go into the fact that the category doesn't explain the circumstances of the victimisation or survival. And such determinations would simply be [[WP:OR|original research]]. They require sources to define the terms, the circumstances, and the application of the terms. All of which can't be done in a category, and is ''another'' reason that this should be deleted. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 15:37, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*:While I thought the argument was ludicrous before, framing it terms of Fictional Holocaust survivors only adds an element of grotesque to the mix. While maintaining a fictive present tense about a work of fiction in articles written about the work, the characters in these works are defined by their author and creator, they are not endowed with some sort of bizarre free will of the kind believed by those moviegoers who are convinced that yelling "watch out" at the top of their lungs will help the slasher's next victim avoid their predestined fate. The characteristics their creators have given them were fashioned specifically for them and certain characteristics will be strongly defining for the character. While, say, a character's hair color might be subject for debate on definingness, notable characters laid out as a Holocaust survivor are not given that trait as a [[MacGuffin]]. The argument that Jc37 has cut-and-pasted here and modified to describe that a character "chose to be (or perhaps were forced or tricked into being) a victim of the Holocaust" exhibits a strong misunderstanding of the creative process in general. In this case, it comes across to me as a gross trivialization of The Holocaust and the literature used to describe it. [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 15:56, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*::This has nothing to do with the topic of the Holocaust. [[Appeal to emotion|Appeals to emotion]] are a bit of a [[red herring]], among other [[logical fallacies]] in your arguments above.
*::This nom has to do with (among other things) the fact that a character may potentially have innumerable events during their life. I've read fiction which discussed the destruction of all life on earth. Should every one of those characters be categorised based upon that event? There are innumerable events in a person's life. And even more events possible in a fictional character's life, all at the whim of the author. There are no "real life" repercussions of assigning these events to a character, and at any time, these events could be changed due to a [[retcon]], especially in the case of characters written by more than a single author with a single vision. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 18:12, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*:::This is solely an appeal to recognize an incredibly bad argument. Tossing it into a category on Fictional Holocaust survivors only demonstrates how untenable it is to base category structures for fictional characters on the basis that the characters exercise free will and make their own choices or are thrust by arbitrary circumstances that take place around them, and are not characters designed by an author/creator who has endowed them with a certain number of characteristics that have been intentionally assigned to them as defining. The further argument based on [[Retroactive continuity]], is just another version of the oft-repeated "what about this hypothetical situation that might be a borderline case..." which might be a valid argument for omitting a particular entry from a category, but is a rather weak rationalization for deleting the entire category. If anything, the "retcon" argument is an appeal to eliminate the fiction-based category structure in its entirety, which seems to be taking place as part of a piecemeal effort here at CfD, one category at a time. [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 20:34, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
*:::::Hm, I count 24 noms on this page alone. So somehow I don't think your accusation of "piecemeal effort" flies. This is simply part of a cleanup of the [[:Category:Fictional]] category tree. They're being nominated as we find them (and not wholly by me, either). Also, "pruning" does not equal elimination. And accusing others of [[WP:AGF|bad faith]], especially without clear evidence, isn't productive, and is contrary to the collegial intent of [[WP:CIVIL]] and [[WP:EQ]].
*:::::You're of course welcome to your opinion, but it's just that: an ''opinion''. Back it up with [[WP:V|verifiable]] [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. Support it with reasoned argument related to policy and guidelines. Do more than just say "IWANTIT" or "IThinkIt'sDefining". If it is defining, '''''prove it'''''. But merely giving your opinion, without that, and becoming indignant in the meantime, isn't helpful, and is actually a great way to have your comments discounted by the closer. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 01:59, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
*::::The effect of retcons on the instability of fictional characters should not be underestimated, and categories for fictional characters should focus on characteristics or traits that are more likely to be integral to characters and that define who they are as characters regardless of what writer takes them over. At least in this case it doesn't appear that this story element is casually or arbitrarily introduced to a character's backstory, so I think I'm at '''weak keep'''. [[User:Postdlf|Postdlf]] ([[User talk:Postdlf|talk]]) 20:59, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
*::Personally that's why I'd like to see this upmerged to Category:Holocaust literature, because what is important is how the holocaust is treated in fiction, not that these characters survived the Holocaust. Magneto's status as a survivor of Aushwitz speaks to the way the Holocaust is used in superhero comics as much as it does the character itself. I think by categorising this way we're placing the character first in the minds of the reader and the editor, rather than the literary concept. That, to me, is not an encyclopedic approach. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 19:51, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*:::This is a category about characters, not books. The [[:Category:Fictional Holocaust survivors]] is already within [[:Category:Holocaust literature]], as well as other character-based categories. An up-merge loses that entire branch structure. [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 20:34, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

==== Category:HIV-positive fictional characters ====
:*'''Listify''' [[:Category:HIV-positive fictional characters]] to [[List of fictional characters who are HIV-positive]]
While we really shouldn't be categorising characters based upon physical conditions, a list of such characters can should help provide references which indicate notability of this intersection. (Such characters have been written about in the news.) - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

*'''Listify''' as nominator. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Listify''', Minded to suggest renaming to '''Category:HIV in fiction''' based on the number of sources available to write an article on HIV in fiction. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 21:41, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' - very defining of the characters included. *'''Oppose suggested rename''' - ''Foo in fiction'' or ''Foo literature'' should not be used as dumping grounds for articles about fictional characters. They should be maintained for articles about the actual literary concepts. If it's important to keep the fictional characters within the related ''in fiction'' structure, then keep the characters subcat. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 05:13, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' I think its degining for several characters included. Again fictional representation of an all too common reality. [[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]] ([[User talk:Dimadick|talk]]) 13:10, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - The main problem with this category is the problem of Wikipedia's guideines which state that fiction must be presented in [[Wikipedia:Guide_to_writing_better_articles#Check_your_fiction|literary present tense]]. So we simply can't categorise a fictional character based upon some choice or preference. Since every event is "now", a character is what they were before they chose to be (or perhaps were forced or tricked into being) HIV positive, at the same time as being who they are after becoming HIV positive. So by its very nature the category is inaccurate. And that doesn't go into the fact that the category doesn't explain the circumstances of the afffliction. And such determinations would simply be [[WP:OR|original research]]. They require sources to define the term, the circumstances, and the application of the term. All of which can't be done in a category, and is ''another'' reason that this should be deleted. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 15:37, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*:That the category doesn't explain how they acquired the virus is irrelevant. Anyone interested in how a particular character or characters became infected may read the article. As noted aaaaalll the way up at the top of the day's CFD, the problem with your extreme interpretation of the literary present-tense is that it would allow for no categorization of fictional characters by any trait whatsoever because there was some point in the character's backstory when they didn't have the trait. Anything that isn't established on page one of the very first published material is off-limits forever. The excellent example of Batman was given above. Under your interpretation Batman could not be categorized as a superhero or a detective because he was neither a superhero nor a detective as a child. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 17:39, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*::I responded to that post "aaaaalll the way up at the top".
*::But yes, these should be lists for the reasons you name. And for one other: Should we categorise characters by every virus or disease or affliction that may have not or have had in the past, present, or future? Cancer springs immediately to mind. Alzheimer's, [[MS]], and [[MD]] are a few others. There are just innumerable events that may happen in a character's lifespan which are all at the whim of one or more authors, and which may change at the same whim (see [[retcon]]). I understand the want to have such information. And I suppose I should now note that no information is lost by making this a list, and in fact much more may be gained. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 18:12, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::*Fictional characters certainly can be defined by being people with cancer or Alzheimer's or whatever. I'm not going to delve any further into the hypothetical than that. Regarding your interpretation of the literary present-tense, I am quite comfortable with taking a [[Tralfamadorian]] approach to fictional characters. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 07:30, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

==== Category:Fictional burn victims ====
:*[[:Category:Fictional burn victims]]
:''"Fictional characters who have suffered burns through heat (i.e. fire) and as a result, have the physical scars to prove it."''
Right. Does anyone really need an explanation why this is bad? : ) - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Strong delete''' - as nominator. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Speedy delete''' - re-creation of previously deleted content (I believe it was under something like "burn sufferers" but I'm not finding the old CFD). Otherwise '''delete''' as non-defining. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 15:36, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' unless reliable sources assert this to be defining, and it is therefore possible to write a few sourced paragraphs or more on the subject, explaining it. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 21:38, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', likely to be trivial for most entries. Though burns may be significant for ''some'' characters, most fictional characters important enough to merit their own stand-alone articles (those that are the subject of ongoing print or television series or media franchises) will probably suffer many different types of injuries across the works in which they appear, none of which will leave any lasting effect on them. This category cannot distinguish between the former and the latter groups. Narrowing it to [[:Category:Fictional characters with burn scars]] might help, but that would be a different category than this one, notwithstanding the futile attempt of the current category's description to impose inclusion criteria that is not reflected in the category's name. Incidentally, [[Two-Face]] is only a victim of a burn by fire/heat in the film ''The Dark Knight''; in the comics, it was acid. [[User:Postdlf|Postdlf]] ([[User talk:Postdlf|talk]]) 16:57, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - The main problem with this category is the problem of Wikipedia's guideines which state that fiction must be presented in [[Wikipedia:Guide_to_writing_better_articles#Check_your_fiction|literary present tense]]. So we simply can't categorise a fictional character based upon some choice or preference. Since every event is "now", a character is what they were before they chose to be (or perhaps were forced or tricked into being) a burn victim, at the same time as being who they are after becoming a burn victim. So by its very nature the category is inaccurate. And that doesn't go into the fact that the category doesn't explain the circumstances of the affliction. And such determinations would simply be [[WP:OR|original research]]. They require sources to define the term, the circumstances, and the application of the term. All of which can't be done in a category, and is ''another'' reason that this should be deleted. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 15:37, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*:Could you maybe only spam the CFDs that ''aren't'' going your way? It's extremely tiresome to scroll past the same comment copy-and-pasted into so many CFDs, and it's made even more so when it's pasted into the ones where everyone's agreeing with you. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 17:33, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*::It was explained to me that often closers will not read every nom on a page, so I'm including the information in each nomination. And I had thought about not posting it here, but then half-expecting to receive arguements based on the lack of posting here. But it looks like I'm going to receive grief ether way : ) - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 18:12, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

==== Category:Fictional characters with heart problems ====
:*[[:Category:Fictional characters with heart problems]]
Do we really want to subcategorise based upon any and every physical condition or trauma of a character? Unlike "real life" such conditions can be ascribed to a character based upon the whims of an author. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' - as nominator. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' unless reliable sources assert this to be defining, and it is therefore possible to write a few sourced paragraphs or more on the subject, explaining it. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 21:37, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per nom. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 03:27, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

==== Category:Fictional characters with dissociative identity disorder ====
*'''Merge''' [[:Category:Fictional characters with dissociative identity disorder]] to [[:Category:Fictional characters with multiple personalities]]
I found the merge tag already on the category page. And honestly, who was the fictional doctor who diagnosed this? The talk page of [[Dissociative identity disorder in fiction]] has similar concerns, and the page has a related cleanup tag. So if there are no references in the associated articles, there shoudn't be a category.

If the merge is opposed, this should be a list at the very least, to provide for references. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

*'''Merge''' (Listify, if no consensus to merge.) - as nominator. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Merge, Delete or rename''' to Multiple personality disorders in fiction. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 21:43, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' I think this cat serves a purpose. If I'm interpreting it correctly, it's for characters who only have two different personalities. Characters like the [[Green Goblin]] and [[Ichigo Kurosaki]] should have been categorized here. [[User:Sesshomaru|Lord Sesshomaru]] <small>([[User talk:Sesshomaru|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sesshomaru|edits]])</small> 21:57, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support merge''' Real life individuals with multiple personalities may or not be a defining characteristic of the individual (or is it individuals), but where used in fiction as a plot device it is almost always a defining characteristic. I do know that the terminology is at issue, but the larger and more common title of [[:Category:Fictional characters with multiple personalities]] is probably clearest. It's not up to a doctor to make a diagnosis, but the author of the fictional work and those writing about these works that define those with multiple personalities. [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 22:15, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' per Alansohn. As this is for categorizing subjects of fiction, not real people, this grouping is really less about a clinical diagnosis than it is about a significant and easily identifiable character element. As such, it is likely to be fanciful rather than a realistic depiction of a real psychiatric disorder; [[Blitzwing]] on ''Transformers: Animated'' certainly has multiple personalities, but it would be rather ridiculous to clinically diagnose a robot as having dissociative disorder. I doubt [[Gollum]]'s magic-driven madness would necessarily fit DSM criteria either. [[User:Postdlf|Postdlf]] ([[User talk:Postdlf|talk]]) 19:40, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
**I agree with that we're not looking at DSM IV definitions and diagnoses, but rather a common fictional plot device. I'm not sure of the exact ratios, but fictional occurrence of multiple personalities (and for that matter, amnesia) is probably several orders of magnitude more frequent than in real life. From what I see in books, movies and television, this is a fictional "multiple personality" disorder that we all recognize as a standard plot device that has little to do with any clinical characterization of [[dissociative identity disorder]]. Merging the two categories would eliminate the [[:Category:Fictional characters with dissociative identity disorder]] which misleadingly implies that the fictional disorder matches the real-life one [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 20:01, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' No hard distinction between the two categories. They each depict the same common trope of fiction. [[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]] ([[User talk:Dimadick|talk]]) 13:13, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Delete or merge'''. Personally I find that most of the applications of this category constitute original research, as its inclusion criteria are vague (DID as defined by whom? Diagnosed by whom? In the context of the fiction itself or in a real-world context? I don't think these issues can be reasonably resolved) and encourage editors to engage in such OR. However, since there are 2 categories that essentially are the same thing the first order of business may be merging them to see if anything can be salvaged. --[[User:IllaZilla|IllaZilla]] ([[User talk:IllaZilla|talk]]) 22:39, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

==== Category:Fictional obsessive-compulsives ====
:[[:Category:Fictional obsessive-compulsives]]
They "display some symptoms"? This is clearly [[WP:OR]], directly in violation of usage of primary sources. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' - as nominator. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Keep'' as long as inclusion criteria is clarified for what is usually a defining characteristic of the individuals. [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 05:58, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' unless reliable sources assert this to be defining, and it is therefore possible to write a few sourced paragraphs or more on the subject, explaining it. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 21:35, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' as inclusion criteria are impossibly vague and rely primarily on original research. --[[User:IllaZilla|IllaZilla]] ([[User talk:IllaZilla|talk]]) 22:35, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

==== Category:Fictional characters with mental illness ====
:*[[:Category:Fictional characters with mental illness]]
This is just too incredibly vague. At best, this should be depopulated and be solely a [[Template:parent category|parent category]] for more specific subcats. However, I've also nominated the subcats above. If no consensus to delete the subcats, they could optionally be upmerged. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' - as nominator. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

*'''Comment''': The nominator isn't supposed to vote, especially in this case as it makes it look like you're having a conversation with yourself. --[[User:Jupiter Optimus Maximus|Jupiter Optimus Maximus]] ([[User talk:Jupiter Optimus Maximus|talk]]) 16:07, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
**I guess that is a side effect of not using the standard nomination templates. If you read the nomination it says nothing about what should be done with the category. It is only when the nominator casts his opinion that you clearly see what is being requested. Using the normal templates, the nominators recommendation is included removing the need for a second post to add this. [[User:Vegaswikian|Vegaswikian]] ([[User talk:Vegaswikian|talk]]) 18:15, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Delete, merge or Rename''', most likely to ''Category:Mental illness in fiction'', although it would be nice to see more work on [[Mental illness in fiction]], especially regarding sources. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 21:44, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose upmerge, unsure about keeping''' - ''Foo in fiction'' or ''Foo literature'' should not be used as dumping grounds for articles about fictional characters. They should be maintained for articles about the actual literary concepts. If it's important to keep the fictional characters within the related ''in fiction'' structure, then keep the characters subcat. Leaning toward '''delete''' just because it's so vague. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 05:10, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:*Otto's opinion here is being rebutted above. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 12:14, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Turn into parent category''' I agree with Jc37's analysis regarding the vagueness of this category. In fiction, characters are usually given a characteristic with the deliberate intention of making it defining. If all we can say about the character is that he had a vague uncharacterizable mental illness, it's probably not defining. Any of the entries in this category should be reviewed and recategorized into one of the more specific subcategories, leaving this category a parent-only, except for entries that need to be categorized. There is no justification for deletion of the category in its entirety. [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 17:06, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', will unavoidably rely on OR, and will tend towards a sloppy equivocation of those characters authors intended to depict clinical depression, schizophrenia, etc. with those who do not and were not intended to represent any real clinically diagnosable mental illness, such as generically "insane," traumatized, or "megalomaniacal" characters (is that why [[Davros]] is included?), which really amount to stock characters/archetypes of mad scientists, supervillains bent on conquering the world, etc., which make for poor subjects of unannotated category classification. Even if this were somehow limited to intentional portrayals of DSM-classified conditions, it's still a pretty damn large catch-all without an obvious threshold for inclusion. It's possible it may function properly as a parent category purely for targeted subcategories, but I'm skeptical. [[User:Postdlf|Postdlf]] ([[User talk:Postdlf|talk]]) 17:14, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Nearly every instance of this category and its subcats' applications that I've come across has constituted unreferenced original research. The category has vague inclusion criteria and essentially places Wikipedia editors in the role of "psychoanalysts to the fictional stars". As Postdlf says, most are simply stock characters/archetypes with no specific, diagnosed (much less referenced) mental illness. Imposing real-world psychoanalysis and diagnosis on these characters is original research, particularly given the lack of sources in most of the articles in question. --[[User:IllaZilla|IllaZilla]] ([[User talk:IllaZilla|talk]]) 22:33, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

==== Category:London West End musicals ====
:'''Propose renaming''' [[:Category:London West End musicals]] to [[:Category:West End musicals]]
:'''Nominator's rationale:''' Rename. Similar issue to the proposal [[Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_September_18#Category:West_End_plays|here]]; the categories ought to be consistent. Previously proposed [[Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_July_20#Category:London_West_End_musicals|here, in July]]. That discussion ended with no consensus, though objections interrogated whether category ought to exist at all, rather than its correct/appropriate name. The phrase "London West End xxxxs" is grammatically incorrect and inconsistent with common usage. The equivalent US category is [[:Category:Broadway musicals]]. [[User:DionysosProteus|DionysosProteus]] ([[User talk:DionysosProteus|talk]]) 19:14, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

::'''Comment''': I'm sorry to deviate from the main purpose of this discussion, but I'm confused by this category. Shouldn't it include only productions that ''originated'' in the West End, such as ''Evita'', ''Miss Saigon'', and ''Billy Elliot the Musical''? Many of the musicals listed opened on Broadway and later were produced in London. Does that qualify them to be called a West End musical? It seems to me a musical should be identified by the location of its original production and not by the many places where it was staged afterwards. For example, ''Hello, Dolly!'' was staged in Japan, but I don't think anyone would describe it as a Japanese musical. Thank you for explaining the rationale involved in this. (As to the actual discussion at hand, I agree the category should be '''renamed''' to Category:West End musicals to remain consistent with Category:Broadway musicals.) [[User:LiteraryMaven|LiteraryMaven]] ([[User talk:LiteraryMaven|talk]]) 13:45, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

::: '''Comment''': Perhaps we can invite the [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Musical Theatre|Wikiproject]] to put together something that can appear on the Category pages of the London and NY shows that explains the criteria of inclusion. I think there are good arguments for both uses, and it seems to me that the project is the place to establish a consensus on a guideline. [[User:DionysosProteus|DionysosProteus]] ([[User talk:DionysosProteus|talk]]) 10:44, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

==== Category:London West End plays ====
:[[:Category:London West End plays]] - {{lc1|London West End plays}}<br />
:'''Nominator's rationale:''' Delete, as per the discussion [[Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_September_18#Category:West_End_plays|here]], already covered by [[:Category:West End plays]]. [[User:DionysosProteus|DionysosProteus]] ([[User talk:DionysosProteus|talk]]) 18:49, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' per nom, per cited cfd. (It is empty.) [[User:Occuli|Occuli]] ([[User talk:Occuli|talk]]) 16:18, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

====Category:Organizations based in India====
{{lc|Organizations based in India}}
*'''Rename''' {{cat|Organizations based in India}} to {{cat|Organisations based in India}}, along with the following sub-categories:
**{{cat|Organizations based in India by state}} to {{cat|Organisations based in India by state}}
**[[:Category:Arts organizations based in India]] to [[:Category:Arts organisations based in India]]
**[[:Category:Mass organizations of Indian political parties]] to [[:Category:Mass organisations of Indian political parties]]
**[[:Category:Men's rights organizations in India]] to [[:Category:Men's rights organisations based in India]]
**[[:Category:Non-profit organizations based in India]] to [[:Category:Non-profit organisations based in India]]
**[[:Category:Religious organizations based in India]] to [[:Category:Religious organisations based in India]]

*'''Merge''' [[:Category:Non-governmental organizations based in India]] to [[:Category:Non-governmental organisations based in India]].

'''Rationale''': British spelling is standard in India, and is used in related articles and categories. (eg. {{cat|Environmental organisations based in India}} and {{cat|Youth organisations based in India}}. <code>Notified creators with <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Template:cfd-notify|subst:cfd-notify]]}}</code> [[User:Cgingold|Cgingold]] ([[User talk:Cgingold|talk]]) 12:15, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' and '''Rename''' perfectly fine by me! ([[User:Ekabhishek|Ekabhishek]] ([[User talk:Ekabhishek|talk]]) 03:46, 5 October 2008 (UTC))
:*Note: Ekabhishek is one of the category creators (though I forget which category). [[User:Cgingold|Cgingold]] ([[User talk:Cgingold|talk]]) 05:48, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support''' standardise on UK spelling. [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 05:53, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

====Category:Ships by place of construction====
{{lc|Ships by place of construction}}
*'''Delete''' - I'm not sure this category serves any real purpose. It contains only a single sub-cat, [[:Category:Ships by country of construction]], which functions as the real parent category by location for ships. There are sub-cats further down for US states, UK cities, etc. -- but they seem to be doing just fine in the current structure, without any assist from this category. <code>(Category creator has been blocked.) </code> [[User:Cgingold|Cgingold]] ([[User talk:Cgingold|talk]]) 11:15, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' per nom. This cat previously had "Ships built in Africa" (used for a few ships that were built in Africa but the country was unknown), but now serves no purpose. — [[User:Bellhalla|Bellhalla]] ([[User talk:Bellhalla|talk]]) 13:12, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*<small>'''Note''': [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Ships]] has been notified of this discussion.</small> <small>— [[User:Bellhalla|Bellhalla]] ([[User talk:Bellhalla|talk]]) 14:12, 6 October 2008 (UTC)</small>
*<small>'''Note''': This debate has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Transportation|list of Transportation-related deletion discussions]]. </small> <small>— [[User:Bellhalla|Bellhalla]] ([[User talk:Bellhalla|talk]]) 14:12, 6 October 2008 (UTC)</small>
*'''Delete''' and, where appropriate, apply its parent cats to the single subcat. [[User:Maralia|Maralia]] ([[User talk:Maralia|talk]]) 15:51, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' -- Conceivably this rather than [[:Category:Ships by country of construction]] should be the parent, and that should be deleted, since Africa is not a country but a continent, but that would be liable to encourage inappropriate subcategories to be added, when they ought to be added to theri own country. I therefore just prefer the "country" option for parent. We certainly do not need both. [[User:Peterkingiron|Peterkingiron]] ([[User talk:Peterkingiron|talk]]) 12:51, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

==== Category:Very young skijumpers ====
:[[:Category:Very young skijumpers]] - {{lc1|Very young skijumpers}}<br />
:'''Nominator's rationale:''' '''Delete'''. Defined as people born after 1991. This is an arbitrary date and time-dependent, since these people will presumably not be considered "very young" at some point in the future. <code>Notified creator with <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Template:cfd-notify|subst:cfd-notify]]}}</code> [[User:Good Olfactory|Good Ol’factory]] <sup>[[User talk:Good Olfactory|(talk)]]</sup> 07:42, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' for nominator's reason. — Cheers, [[User:Jacklee|<span style="color:#ce2029">Jack</span><span style="color:#800000">'''Lee'''</span>]] <sup>&ndash;[[User talk:Jacklee|talk]]&ndash;</span></sup> 09:31, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per nom. [[User:Bidgee|Bidgee]] ([[User talk:Bidgee|talk]]) 09:33, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' arbitrary inclusion criteria. [[User:Maralia|Maralia]] ([[User talk:Maralia|talk]]) 15:48, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Move''' Move all relevant jumpers to Category for their country. [[User:AlwaysOnion|AlwaysOnion]] ([[User talk:AlwaysOnion|talk]]) 19:30, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' Listing anyone as "very young" or "very old" falls victim to bias. [[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]] ([[User talk:Dimadick|talk]]) 13:15, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

==== Category:Aquarium of Western Australia ====
:'''Suggest merging''' [[:Category:Aquarium of Western Australia]] to [[:Category:Aquaria in Australia]]
:'''Nominator's rationale:''' '''Upmerge and delete'''. If this category were for the (theoretically) many aquaria in WA, it should be renamed [[:Category:Aquaria in Western Australia]]. However, if it is for the one aquarium called the [[Aquarium of Western Australia]] (which I think was probably the intent since AFAIK there is only one aquarium in WA for which there is currently a WP article), it should be upmerged as overcategorization—there's only one article in it right now, anyway. <code>Notified creator with <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Template:cfd-notify|subst:cfd-notify]]}}</code> [[User:Good Olfactory|Good Ol’factory]] <sup>[[User talk:Good Olfactory|(talk)]]</sup> 07:12, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per norm also I doubt that there is more then 1 Aquarium/Aquaria in Western Australia. [[User:Bidgee|Bidgee]] ([[User talk:Bidgee|talk]]) 07:33, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Upmerge''' to [[:Category:Aquaria in Australia]] and delete. --[[User:Bduke|<span style="color:#002147;">'''Bduke'''</span>]] [[User_talk:Bduke|<span style="color:#002147;">'''(Discussion)'''</span>]] 08:22, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support''' for consistency into a category that will include more than one aquarium. [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 03:57, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

==== Category:PMS Stars ====
:[[:Category:PMS Stars]] - {{lc1|PMS Stars}}<br />
:'''Nominator's rationale:''' This categoryredirect is likely to be confused for celebrities suffering from PMS and used for bad catgorization. [[Special:Contributions/70.51.8.75|70.51.8.75]] ([[User talk:70.51.8.75|talk]]) 07:06, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''LOL''' yeah, delete per above. — [[User talk:CharlotteWebb|CharlotteWebb]]
*'''Delete''' per nom. [[User:Icalanise|Icalanise]] ([[User talk:Icalanise|talk]]) 22:37, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Rename''' and '''delete''' (no need to keep redirect, I think) to [[:Category:pre-main sequence stars]], as apparently has been done. —Alex ([[User:Ashill|ASHill]] &#124; [[User_talk:Ashill|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Ashill|contribs]]) 22:59, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

====Category:Patriotic user templates====
:'''Propose merging''' [[:Category:Patriotic user templates]] to either [[:Category:Nationality user templates]] or [[:Category:Location user templates]]
:'''Nominator's rationale''': The nominated category duplicates "Nationality user templates" and "Location user templates". There is currently only one userbox in the nominated category. — Cheers, [[User:Jacklee|<span style="color:#ce2029">Jack</span><span style="color:#800000">'''Lee'''</span>]] <sup>&ndash;[[User talk:Jacklee|talk]]&ndash;</span></sup> 06:53, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

==== Category:Lassie films and television productions ====
:'''Propose renaming''' [[:Category:Lassie films and television productions]] to [[:Category:Lassie]]
:'''Nominator's rationale:''' I think this category should be renamed to simply Lassie to allow the other related articles, such as [[Lassie]] and [[Pal]] to also fit well into this category. Right now, its limited to just the films and TV series. -- [[User:Collectonian|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>Collectonian</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Collectonian|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Collectonian|contribs]]) 03:43, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*I agree with the rationale, but at the same time I worry that the new title would risk being deleted as "eponymous overcategorization". Round up the usual suspects and ask them to weigh in now rather than later, perhaps [[Image:Smiley.svg|15px|]]. — [[User talk:CharlotteWebb|CharlotteWebb]] 20:02, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support''' By renaming, the category could include the [[Lassie]] article itself, its creator [[Eric Knight]], and for the actors and characters from the various fictionalizations. As it stands now, this is a very narrow category. [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 03:56, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' or perhaps '''split''' into categories for Lassie films and Lassie TV series and create a new parent [[:Category:Lassie]]. [[:Category:Lassie characters]] could also be created if there is sufficient material. Note that actors associated with Lassie films or TV shows should ''not'' be included in either the Lassie category or a ''Lassie actors'' subcategory, as this is per long-standing and extensive precedent overcategorization. [[User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] ([[User talk:Otto4711|talk]]) 15:04, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Revision as of 03:32, 10 October 2008

The following is a list of notable deaths in 2008. Names are listed by date of death, not the date it was announced. Names under each date are listed in alphabetical order by family name.

Please note that deaths of notable animals (that is, those animals with their own Wikipedia articles) are reported here.

A typical entry appears in the following sequence:

  • Name, age, country of citizenship and reason for notability, established cause of death, reference.

October 2008

10

9

8

7

6

5

4

3

2

1

September 2008

See Deaths in September 2008.

August 2008

See Deaths in August 2008.

July 2008

See Deaths in July 2008.

June 2008

See Deaths in June 2008.

May 2008

See Deaths in May 2008.

April 2008

See Deaths in April 2008.

March 2008

See Deaths in March 2008.

February 2008

See Deaths in February 2008.

January 2008

See Deaths in January 2008.

External links

Template:Wikinewshas

For earlier deaths, see Deaths in 2007, Deaths in 2006, Deaths in 2005, Deaths in 2004, Deaths in 2003, Deaths in 2002, Deaths in 2001, 2000, 1999, 1998, 1997, 1996, 1995, 1994, 1993, 1992, 1991, 1990, 1989, 1988, ...

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_October_4&oldid=244292447"