Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games

Sonic the Hedgehog Cruft

There's a motherload of articles that really need a lot of work.

Lots of items of questionable notability:

• Minor power objects in Sonic the Hedgehog
• Minor technology in Sonic the Hedgehog
• Roboticizer
• Chaos Emeralds
• List of Items in Sonic the Hedgehog
• Super transformation (other media) - I added this one. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 23:18, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Lots of locations of questionable notability:

• Angel Island (Sonic the Hedgehog)
• Earth (Sonic the Hedgehog)
• Hidden Palace Zone
• Knothole
• Minor locations in Sonic the Hedgehog
• Mobius (Sonic the Hedgehog)
• Mobotropolis
• Nameless Zone
• Shanazar
• Special Stage (Sonic the Hedgehog)
• Special Zone (Sonic the Comic)
• The Void (Sonic the Hedgehog)

And don't even get me started on the characters: Category:Sonic the Hedgehog characters

This is such a tangled mess I hardly want to deal with it. I know it's probably intimidating for other editors too. But I figure I could flag it, if only for someone to tackle it at a later date. If anyone has a manageable solution rather than dealing with each article one-by-one, I'm sure we'd all benefit from it. Randomran (talk) 21:51, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, good luck there. Even on the grounds they need major improvement, a lot of it would face royal hell done en masse. The character ones would be the hardest problem...possibly merging the "zones" together though with care to keep content loss at near nill would be a good place to start for anyone tackling it.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 22:08, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

They're definitely going to need some work. Anything relating to the single items or locations of the series should just redirect to the series article at this point. I don't believe there are any worthwhile topics there. As for the characters, I have proposed before that only seven articles (Sonic the Hedgehog (character), Miles "Tails" Prower, Knuckles the Echidna, Doctor Eggman, Shadow the Hedgehog, Metal Sonic, and Amy Rose) and seven character lists (List of characters from Sonic the Hedgehog (games), Sonic the Hedgehog (comic book) characters, Sonic the Comic characters, List of characters from Sonic X, List of characters in Sonic the Hedgehog (TV Series), List of characters in Sonic Underground, and Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog characters) be kept, give or take one or two. That would be a good goal to start off with. TTN (talk) 22:19, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

A good step forward in this cleanup process would be to talk some sense into the Sonic fans at WikiProject Sega. User:Krator (t c) 23:07, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

(Edit conflict with Krator). Apparently, I think TTN and Krator misunderstood me every time we've had a discussion, so please allow me to clarify. I think TTN's idea in this case is a good one, because this really is a lot of cruft (and you're getting that comment from the most active member of WikiProject Sega). However, I would like to extend the amount of articles (for characters) to eleven; adding Cream the Rabbit, Blaze the Cat, Silver the Hedgehog, and Rouge the Bat, which I think are more notable than the rest and if the correct information can be sifted out from all the fancruft that's out there on the internet, these four would make decent articles, as well. The others, I don't even see a snowball's chance in hell about finding the correct information. The zone articles, and I mean all of them should be either deleted or redirected, since those are obvious non-notable parts of the series. The only article I'm questioning on that list is Chaos Emeralds because the merger I set up hasn't done much good and I'm still not sure what to do with it. I've also added Super transformation (other media) to this list, as it's all full of fancruft and we didn't merge that into Chaos Emeralds, since I had a toss-up over merging or deleting and I still haven't decided. If TTN would be willing to flex with me on these last four articles—seeing as how we've had our debates before—then I'll be happy to support TTN's plan and I'll even help him get it done. The only user you have to worry about is User:Fairfieldfencer, a very rash inclusionist and the only other real active part of the project. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 23:18, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Can someone just do me a favor and inform either WikiProject Sega or the Sonic Task Force (under construction) for me about this setup? Most of the project is full of extreme inclusionists (I consider myself a moderate eventualist and slight inclusionist) and I'd rather not incur the wrath of the people I work with. By the way, the Sonic Task Force is part of WikiProject Sega that is under construction because Sonic articles constitute a good chunk (but not more than 25%) of the project's articles and I, along with others, felt it necessary to have. We're still building it and making it active, but what we're talking about here would be a good step forward for both WikiProject Sega and the Sonic Task Force, to have major cleanup done. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 23:29, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, once the guideline discussion wraps up, I think they're going to have a hard time stopping us from merging as its a pretty obvious case of non-notable fictional elements... I'd rather they come quietly, but... *shrug* I'm busy cleaning up Myst cruft, so I'll recuse myself from another odious task this time around. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 23:47, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Speaking as someone who isn't part of WikiProject Sega, who enjoyed the first three games in the series and who thought most of the rest of them really sucked, I would suggest the following:

• Delete and/or merge the vast majority of character articles. Leave articles for truly notable characters (Sonic, Knuckles, Rouge, Cream, Robotnik, etc.) only if sources support them.
• Delete all of the locations articles. All of the ones I've looked at so far (a) are in-universe only, and (b) have no specific meaning or notability outside of the game.
• Delete all of the technology articles and condense only the most notable material into a general article about the series. It is absolutely fine to talk about the general (and repeated) concept of turning animals/living beings into robots - that defined the series. But we don't need details or even summaries of all the various ways in which this is done - just mentioning the existence of a variety of machines should be sufficient.
• In notable character articles, more out-of-universe information is needed. The articles seem rather heavy on in-universe info and character evolution, as well as semi-unrelated details about other characters that were considered (Robotnik's article suffers heavily from this).
• I would suggest that common themes and items (like Chaos Emeralds, Power Rings, etc.) should be mentioned in brief prose in a series article, and as appropriate within individual game articles. Again, it's a question of what's needed to get the average non-gaming reader to understand the game (or series, or individual character) as a whole, and what that reader would really care about if they didn't already know a lot about the game.

I know I'm kinda beating the same drum here, but these are my thoughts after reviewing about half the articles in the above list. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 23:58, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I tend to be an eventualist too. I don't think we have to deal with the whole mess right now and I think it would be enough to even put a dent in some of this. For that reason, I think it's better to focus on whatever we agree with than to pick fights over the few things that we disagree over.
I'd be willing to initiate talks with wikiproject sega. I presume at their usual talk page? My only question is what you'd want me to say. I know a lot of people are resistant to change, and I want people to understand that I'm doing this to improve the wikipedia, not as an uptight power trip. Randomran (talk) 00:01, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't other trying to split this between here and the Sega project. They only have a few active members (I would personally call it dead), and one of them has already commented here. Leave a note for sure, but the ones that haven't commented here will have little to add to the discussion. They'll only add to the need to play the number consensus game. TTN (talk) 00:18, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and for the video game characters, this revision of the main list would be a good start. It contains the important recurring characters, while the one game characters on the two remaining lists should redirect to their game of origin. TTN (talk) 00:23, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

That's not a bad revision, TTN. I would agree with starting with that. It's pretty clean-cut, covers the most important bases, and it is much improved compared to all the cruft. Not to mention, of course, that it leaves the four articles I mentioned intact. I will have to get started finding sources and out-of-universe information, but it's going to take a little time to sift through the cruft, not to mention I'm a little busy right now off Wikipedia.

Oh, and what's with all this discrimination on WikiProject Sega? I've been trying to steer it away from the leech-bed of problems that it was (including getting its founder, Gaogier, indefinitely blocked and forcing him to leave) and make it a more active, less one-sided affair. That's why I invited members like Bridies, who categorized himself as an exclusionist and immediatist (in direct contrast to views of others like Fairfieldfencer, the only other continuously active member). We've got 40 members, but no one else uses the pages, which is a fact that bothers me about this project I've put a lot of time into. Sorry for the off-topic discussion, just my rant for the day. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 01:54, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I pretty much agree with what's been said. There's even more extraneous articles than I was aware of. Bridies (talk) 02:10, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I also don't think Blaze, Cream etc are notable. All I can find is a single source each on IGN (maybe 2 for blaze). Team Dark, Team Rose, blaze. Bridies (talk) 02:40, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Before I say this, let me note that I know that popularity does not equal notability. However, of the characters I listed, Rouge has appeared in at least ten games as of now, Cream has been in at least four as a major character and appeared in many more as a playable, Blaze has been a major character in three games, and Silver was major in Sonic the Hedgehog (2006 game) but has also appeared in several later games, such as Sonic Battle and its sequel. That said, I think we can establish notability for these characters. I'll start taking a look for sources tomorrow, I'm too tired to do it tonight and I have things to do. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 04:02, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, would anybody mind if I started off with the TV series characters? I mean character articles such as Chris Thorndyke, Cosmo, Metarex, Mania, etc. As many agree here, they do not have enough nobility to warrant their own articles. The same goes with Sonic comic characters, there is over 12 character articles on this subject, and as mentioned, do not warrant enough nobility to keep as articles. Magiciandude (talk) 03:34, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

At least the comic character articles have to go. Most of those are filled with excessive plot summaries and are generally not notable. For these articles, I favor deletion because I doubt that even in a list format it will have any notability or As for the TV series, I'm not exactly sure what the standard is for TV character articles in terms of notability, but in this case I favor a merge. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 04:02, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Sure no problem, I had already placing merge tages for the TV character series. I wanted to start with the TV series. Magiciandude (talk) 04:21, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I'll start with the locations. I know these tend to be messy, but I think a blanket AFD is the best way to deal with all of these articles. Not one of them is notable and getting rid of them together will make the process much easier. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 04:27, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Here's the AFD on the locations. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Angel Island (Sonic the Hedgehog)

First, I'd like to see if there is a Wiki(a) we can transwiki those articles to which are not notable. They look fairly detailed even for cruft, which I'm sure would be welcome on a Sonic Wikia. I would claim I'm a precisionist leaning inclusionist... As for the others, redirects to a list of minor / major characters of a series is an option, or as has already been done, redirects to the games which the most minor of characters are present in I would feel appropriate. --Izno (talk) 05:39, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Here, this Sonic Wiki is part of Wikia. Magiciandude (talk) 09:22, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I've added info on what it would take to transwiki the articles to the AFD page. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 13:42, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Good job everyone. Thanks for taking this on. Now, what are we gonna do about the non-notable items? (Roboticizer and the like?) Randomran (talk) 18:43, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I think you can put together items and power objects and whatever else that is relevant into one list. Redirect anything else that can be redirected (like Chaos Emeralds into the series article section, yes, I've given up on that article), and delete anything else in separate AFD's. I don't think we can blanket these like we could the others. I'm going to go ahead and put up the AFD for Super transformation (other media) since it's the wastes of other articles anyway. It will be at the link below. (link should turn from red to blue after I put up the AFD here in a few minutes.)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Super transformation (other media)

That's just my opinion, of course, but I think it's the best action. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 21:17, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

(long sigh) Well, getting accused of being a sockpuppeteer by an IP address in the Angel Island AFD is a little disheartening. Anyway, I'm going to propose a redirect: Chaos Emeralds to Sonic the Hedgehog (series)#Emeralds per a suggestion by TTN a few weeks ago. I seriously doubt the article would survive an AFD anyway and there's really nowhere else to put it (I think Minor power objects in Sonic the Hedgehog is probably a little inappropriate for such a redirect). It's kind of weird to be proposing all these deletions and redirects and merges; I certainly hope this doesn't mean my eventualist-incrementalist philosophy is changing. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 03:28, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't. Most of us go through phases. I've been on a cleanup binge lately because I'm waiting for a few resources/editors to get back to me on improving some other articles. Don't let the accusations get you down. It looks like that person was just a single purpose account. We have your back if things get out of hand. Randomran (talk) 03:38, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I won't let it get me down. Just the first time that's happened to me, that's all. As long as I know I'm not a sockpuppeteer, nothing's wrong. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 04:20, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I would like E-123 Omega to be kept.Fairfieldfencer FFF 08:30, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

And I would like to say that I am entirely against this merge!! But since I'm the only one that is: I guess I have no choice but to stand aside and let you guys get on with it.Fairfieldfencer FFF 11:01, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I would like someone's appinion on whether or not E-123 Omega falls under the keep category.Fairfieldfencer FFF 20:03, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Could someone please give me their appinion on the article being kept?!Fairfieldfencer FFF 08:07, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The WikiProjects/task force may also want to look closer to home, if Sonic the Hedgehog (video game) only has a small number of sources (in particular for the 16-bit Genesis/Mega Drive release) to verify notability of what should be one of the most famous video games ever released in my opinion, then something is badly wrong (an article that should of course never be deleted in my opinion). A lot of the game articles have no sources to meet notability, strange considering Sonic's long and well known legacy in video gaming - Sonic the Hedgehog CD only has two and has a lot of citation needed tags on it. Knuckles Chaotix has two sources, one is no longer available and the other is for a forum, which goes against WP:RS. I would suggest this should be next after the "cruft" is dealt with, either by fixing or transwiki/AfD these articles. --tgheretford (talk) 14:09, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm certain the game articles do have the notability to be kept, but we really need to start cleaning these articles up. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 15:07, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

We don't just delete badly written articles (unless it REALLY is just a long personal opinion essay or something really off). We delete things for a lack of notability not just because they have no references, but because a quick search reveals that there are no references that meet the general notability guideline. The actual games may be badly written, but I'm sure there are references out there and a delete is not the best way to deal with them. Randomran (talk) 16:57, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. Now, let's get on to the next order of business. What about the items? Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 00:26, 30 May 2008 (UTC)r

Most video game items just aren't notable. Maybe references can show otherwise, but I don't think so. By our guidelines, a list of every item in the game isn't appropriate for articles. I would argue that these should all be deleted or redirected to a main article on the series. But if someone wants to assert that a few of these items (perhaps the rings?) are notable, then we can start the discussion there. Just my understanding of the notability requirement and the quality of these items. Randomran (talk) 03:36, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I think that if any item is notable in the series, it's the Chaos Emeralds, and that article is such a shambles that it's not even funny. I guess we need to redirect/delete/whatever it takes to rectify this. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 14:17, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

And its ironic that that article was nominated for deletion in January, but kept on the condition that it is cleaned up. Clearly that hasn't happened. --tgheretford (talk) 14:43, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

That was before the Sega Project or the Sonic Task Force was set up. And it's been tagged for clean up on the Sega Project To-Do list for ages. And the article has recently been merged with other articles and is still incomplete. It's not RP's fault that users are too lazy to help out an article.Fairfieldfencer FFF 15:03, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

(long sigh) It's a shame the Sega Project has forty members but only two are active. That's probably part of why we have this problem in the first place, the project doesn't have enough actives to do its job and control the fancruft while cleaning up notable articles. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 16:53, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I share your frustration. The same thing happens with television and radio articles that I mostly get involved with, and appears to be a Wikipedia wide problem. I suppose its like regular housework, people are happy to edit but housekeeping isn't as enticing or motivating. --tgheretford (talk) 17:07, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, at least we're doing some decent work right now with this. Hopefully that will help us catch up a bit. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 02:51, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

May I ask why merge tags haven't been put on the articles? (Not including the Sonic X ones.)Fairfieldfencer FFF 16:24, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Never mind I just put them up myself.Fairfieldfencer FFF 11:02, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

New AFD: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Minor technology in Sonic the Hedgehog

What do we do with the video game characters?

We can discuss the comic characters elsewhere, and Magiciandude is dealing with the TV series characters (at least Sonic X, I think) by merging them. But now I'd like to bring up an important issue: What do we do with the video game characters?

TTN and Bridies have suggested seven character articles (Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Shadow, Doctor Eggman, and Metal Sonic). I have suggested eleven (adding Silver, Rouge, Cream, and Blaze). Fairfieldfencer has suggested also keeping E-123 Omega in addition to my proposal, and I think this could be possible. For everything else, we already have List of characters from Sonic the Hedgehog (games), Other characters in Sonic the Hedgehog, and Other villains in Sonic the Hedgehog (games) (which themselves need to be sorted out and cleaned up.) So anything that we decide not to keep as an article can be merged into that list. TTN has suggested this revision for the list; but notice that he leaves intact the four articles I suggested to be kept. For a guide to all of the Sonic characters articles and lists, we can use this template: {{Sonic characters}}

Okay, so any opinions? Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 02:51, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

It looks good to me, with Omega as well. Only one that worries me a little is Cream, but that's more my unfamiliarity with the character really. You might dig around for design notes and prototype states etc for non-central characters to bolster their notability: Sega guys seem to like talking a lot more than a lot of corporate figures, so there's bound to be citable information. Reception is an important factor, but you might have trouble like I said with the less central and spotlighted characters. Just remember you can utilize merchandising to this end as well somewhat. I hope that helps you, I'd lend you a hand with the work on the articles but I'm busy with about 6 myself and held up on top of that with matters in life :\--Kung Fu Man (talk) 04:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, and to be honest I'm not an expert with writing fiction articles. Usually I work with the nonfiction side of the Sega world (such as consoles and companies), though I don't mind slipping in the occasional edit with Sonic the Hedgehog articles. I do, however, have an understanding of WP:FICT, and I'd say the twelve we have listed above would be fine. To be honest, the one that's worried me some is Silver, but I think there's enough there to make a case (plus he has some creation info, one of the few "iffy" characters with out-of-universe context). Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 05:19, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

In the very least, that revision should be used for now, and those two other lists should redirect there. The single characters can always wait until the comic and television characters are all set. TTN (talk) 23:16, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I think we can use it as a concept, but not an exact model. For starters, where are the pictures? I know we have a few on the article as it is now. It also seems that a bunch of minor characters were stripped from the article, though that may just be my eyes and I might be sorely mistaken. That's probably because there's so many lists here that everything's jumbled up. For example, is Marine the Raccoon (from the other character's list) any less notable than Bark and Bean? Stuff like this needs to be sorted out, but that revision is a good start. Let's discuss this further, this is probably going to be a very messy merge to perform. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 01:06, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

There will need to be a large group image instead of any single images in order to comply with policy. Only characters that appear in multiple games belong on the list. While those two aren't really that important, they've been a part of a few games. If Marine is added to more games, there can be an entry added for it. TTN (talk) 13:27, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok, just thought I'd ask since Bark and Bean have been kind of like "bonus characters" without any real purpose while Marine has actually had a purpose in the storyline of the game she is in. As for the images, well, maybe we can find a group image with a few of them and we'll see what we can do with the rest. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 14:08, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I think we've had enough characters categorized as "minor" as is. Cream I understand somewhat, what with her lack of recent appearances and all (Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games notwithstanding,) but Blaze?!? And if Rouge the Bat is more important than Cream, then why wasn't she in Sonic and the Secret Rings or the aforementioned Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games? --Luigifan (talk) 14:44, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

And, by the way, as much as Garcia would hate it (don't ask,) I think that Marine is definitely a minor character. Storyline significance notwithstanding (about all she did was annoy Sonic, Tails, and Blaze to no end, with her only significant contribution to the heroes' cause being her hydrokinetic attack on the Egg Wizard at the end of the game,) Marine has only been in one game. Until she makes more appearances (which the end of Sonic Rush Adventure implies as a strong possibility,) I think she's stuck in "minor character" status. --Luigifan (talk) 14:55, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Singular character articles should really include Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Shadow, Doctor Eggman, Metal Sonic, Rouge the Bat, Cream the Rabbit, and E-123 Omega. The article Cream the Rabbit has over 15 references and does include real world information such as her voice actress (All of which are also referenced in the article). Cream has appeared in a multitude of games and establishes as much notability as a character like Metal Sonic, in fact the article on Cream the Rabbit has more references than both Metal Sonic and Shadow the Hedgehog. The E-123 Omega article also has a multitude of references as well and should be looked at carefully. As for articles on teams and some lists such as Other characters in Sonic the Hedgehog (games), this article should be kept in its current sate as the List of characters from Sonic the Hedgehog (games) would remove from the detail in this article. This article is far more notable than any articles on a single character as it contains 20 characters nearly all of whom establish notability. Providing more direct links from List of characters from Sonic the Hedgehog (games) to this article would greatly improve both. And on the suggested merge of Chaotix, this article is focused on a team that spans over 13 unique characters. Merging this article into List of characters from Sonic the Hedgehog (games) would be like merging an article like Avengers (comics) or the X-Men into List of Marvel Comics characters. These characters have made an appearance in multiple games, comics, and television show, it establishes notability as its own article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kurowoofwoof111 (talk • contribs) 15:56, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Luigifan, I never said Marine wasn't a minor character. But TTN is talking about not even including her in the list. Which would make sense, I guess (since she's a one-game character for now, a section in the Sonic Rush Adventure article makes more sense until she appears in more games, if she appears.) We should sort this with others, like moving the section about Ray the Flying Squirrel to SegaSonic the Hedgehog. I was just a little confused about Bark and Bean, since they're not even really Sonic characters, save for appearances in Sonic the Fighters. As for the articles, Silver the Hedgehog also has some real-world info (and I'll have to look into making the creation stuff more clear), so I think that one can be kept. Of the 12 FFF and I suggested, Blaze is probably the weakest, but I'll look into it when I have the time. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 18:18, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Just a quick reminder, be careful not to get too hung up in major/minor character vs. notable character. A major character in a video game (or even a whole series) may still not warrant more than a brief mention in the series article because he/she doesn't have real-world notability. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 18:17, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

One character that hasn't been mentioned is Sally. She is not only involved as a main character in a popular comic series, but she is also the co-main character in Sonic the Hedgehog, she plays a major role in Sonic Christmas Blast (Even though she has no speaking lines), she appears in Sonic Spinball, she was intended to be in Sonic X-Treme, and even made a cameo in the Stay Sonic guidebook. She even has a full concept and creation section, detailing her original look as "Princess Acorn" and including her development into what became known as "Pink Sally". Not to mention the fact that there are currently 3 outside sources, and as I work on the article the list of references will grow, along with adding full comic citations, and a Reception section that I'm trying to get going. Currently, I am also working on Mina and Sonic's Archie articles, but Mina is a comic-only character and Sonic already has his own character article. Please, let me finish my work on the Sally page. I've been working on it since December!! I can add a main article link to Sally's page on the comic character list. On the topic of merging the game characters, I agree with merging everyone that's not Sonic, Tails, Amy, Eggman, Knuckles, Shadow, Rouge, Cream, Blaze, Silver, or the Chaotix. These are main characters in the series and should be kept. I'm iffy on E-123 Omega, as he only made a major role in Sonic Heroes, and then he basically got forgotten about, except for a small role in Sonic '06. As for TV characters, I propose merging each show's characters in a respective list. For example: Move Queen Aleena to List of characters in Sonic Underground. Again, Sally's section in the "SatAM" character list could provide a link to her main article. As for comic characters, ugg. The comic characters are probably the articles I've been the most attached to on Wikipedia. It's gonna be really hard for me to take it in. However, it must be done. I suggest merging all of the characters on the comic (except Sally) into List of characters in Sonic the Hedgehog (comic series), which I have just created. Sadly, it must be done. However, I will put all of the comic character articles (except minor ones) under my username in order to work on them behind the scenes, much like Fairfieldfencer who is working on Julie-Su's article "behind-the-scenes", only mine involves ALL major characters. I'll begin transferring the articles, and building the List page. Once that's done, I'll ask for the final call to redirect the pages. The only problem is Minor characters in Sonic the Hedgehog (comic series). This page is HUGE as it is, and merging it with the Main characters in one big list, presents a problem, as there are nearly 100 main and secondary characters in the comic. Should we keep 2 seperate lists, one being minor and one being major? This may be a better solution than making an already long list even longer. It's sort of like merging every single character in the Simpsons into one super-list. It'll be hard to manage and will be a mess. Please consider these ideas. Thank you.  Dylanlip  (talk) 16:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

If you need any help feel free to ask me and I'll try my best.Fairfieldfencer FFF 16:37, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I've fixed up my comment. I've added a few things to it and merged them.  Dylanlip  (talk) 16:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Once again, I have to keep saying KEEP SALLY'S PAGE ALONE!!! You keep thinking you can merge her simply into the comic character list. You can't. I'm trying to get the point across that she is notable in 2 different medias and is semi-notable in like, 4 other things. Plus, her article has references. It's not like all she has is comic references. The last thing that is really pissing me off is that no one will listen to this statement, "I'm not finished." Plain and simple. Don't put up merge tags until I'm done and you've checked it to see if it can qualify as a full article, THEN may you put up merge tags if it does not qualify.  Dylanlip  (talk) 02:31, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Hey, relax Dylanlip. Just because there's a merge tag there doesn't mean she's instantly getting merged. It's a suggestion, not a mandate. If it is the case that you're fixing this article, then we'll wait, no questions asked. Everyone here will wait, the Sega Project will wait, and we'll see what you can do. That's part of Wikipedia, repair and not just straight-up write and merge. Just contact us when you're done and leave the merge tag up for discussion purposes only, that it has been suggested. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 02:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, plus with the merge tag up: it might bring more protestors to the merge of Sally.Fairfieldfencer FFF 08:35, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up. I was starting to get worried. Just to tell everyone, I have created the comic character list already, and I have begun adding the full comic citations for Sally's article. I've found that there are just so many characters in the comic. I can't even count how many characters there are! I'm wondering if we should split Main characters from Minor characters, as the amount of characters in total is astounding. Just pondering the thought.  Dylanlip  (talk) 14:50, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

We could do it alphabetically, too, like the Pokemon lists. Do an A-M and N-Z list or something like that. Just a suggestion. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 16:40, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

So, if we have all reached a consensus, can we remove the merger tags on some of the pages?Rogue Commander (talk) 18:42, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

The "relationship/interactions with other characters" crap really needs to removed/trimmed badly. Just take a look at Shadow the Hedgehog. That's too much cruft right there. Oh and btw, think you can add Echidnas (Sonic the Hedgehog) and Mobians to the AfD or do you not mind if I do it? While skimming around for Sonic TV characters, I came across these. Magiciandude (talk) 22:20, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

fgsfds

Would "Burn them with fire" be too harsh an answer to the question? I read through Metal Sonic, for example, and it's dreadful. These articles are full of speculation and just plain made up bullshit. To share an example:

This creates a mental paradox: How could Metal Sonic truly believe himself to be the original Sonic whilst also believing that he was created for the purpose of destroying Sonic? Such a logical contradiction could probably be considered insane. Another possibility is that he believes himself to have been created first, as a precaution to the real Sonic's existence. More likely, however, is that these quotes suggest that his goal is to defeat Sonic and thus become the "true" (only living) Sonic by doing so. Also during this final battle, Metal Sonic reveals a tormented side to his personality, explaining that when he could not even succeed in what he was designed to do (defeat Sonic) he was left with no purpose.

ARGLBPHARGLE. This would be low-quality nonsense on a fanpage, and it's well below Wikipedia's standards. They're currently worse than the Pokemon articles were, and those were dire. There isn't any reason that all of these articles could not be cut down to three paragraphs tops, in their current form, and that includes Sonic the Hedgehog (character). - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 18:54, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me, A Man In Black, but seriously, you're overreacting. Part of Wikipedia is cleanup, not just merger. By the way, here's something you might be interested in in terms of that Metal Sonic "paradox". This quote is from Sonic Heroes:

I am the ultimate overlord, Metal Sonic! I am the real Sonic!

— Metal Sonic, end boss fight of Sonic Heroes

That's where that comes from. By the way, we don't delete articles and stuff based on how poorly they're written right now. We do it based on if it can be done. While we're dealing with this fancruft, we'll start cleanup efforts. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 20:58, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, okay. I want to clean up these articles. With a chainsaw. Aomeone took a SINGLE SENTENCE OF DIALOGUE and wrote a WHOLE PARAGRAPH OF SPECULATION based on it. That's the kind of nonsense these awful articles attract.

There's precious little to save in their current form, and no body of sources to use to turn them into something worth having. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops)

• Can I just ask what the significance of "fgsfds" is? --.:Alex:. 21:35, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm guessing it's about as significant as "asklbgail" or "eibgaubgq3589" - just some random fat-fingering to express frustration. :) — KieferSkunk (talk) — 21:40, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Basically A Man in Black needs to lay off the caffeine it would seem. Anyway to argue for a merge is a stretch, the article is bad but salvageable, though by that that'd mean stripping down the old articles, rewriting them, and replacing them. But as long as WP:N and WP:V can be proven, "burn and merge" is a step in the wrong direction.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 21:59, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I still question whether anyone other than Sonic and Dr. Robotnik/Eggman can really successfully fulfill notability requirements at all. Perhaps a few of the secondary characters. Sonic stands the best chance because in addition to being the main character of all the games, he's also been Sega's mascot for years. Dr. Robotnik is probably also notable enough since he's the primary villain of the series, though even then, it might be a stretch if all the sources talk about is his role within the series.

I do think that if we have a consensus to allow lists of characters, that those articles should be reduced to one (maybe two) paragraphs of only the most essential information about each character. But I do NOT agree that there's any reason for Mecha Sonic to have his own article (nor for most of the other characters being discussed).

If you guys want a good Nintendo parallel, take a look at List of characters in the Star Fox series. The only character in this list to have his own article is Fox McCloud, and even the highly notable Andross and Krystal characters are just paragraphs in the list. While the Star Fox series isn't as synonymous with Nintendo as the Mario series, it's still one of their best-known series, and I think the work that was done on that characters article would serve as a good example for the Sonic characters as well. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 23:51, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I actually agree with the above there (adding Tails into that as a trio given he's not always been strictly a support character). My point was to at least look intensely before razing.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 00:43, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

The main characters with with a chance of actual potential definitely need to be gutted and given the basic blank real world sections. The rest just need to be reduced to a paragraph or two. As I said before, this revision of the main game list is a good starting point at least. Revert to that and redirect Other characters in Sonic the Hedgehog (games) and Other villains in Sonic the Hedgehog (games), and besides merging some more secondary characters, the video game ones will be all set. TTN (talk) 22:03, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

It is true that the character articles are just an utter mess, and we need to deal with them. I have already stated my opinion about TTN's proposal: while I don't agree with all of it, it's a good start, definitely, and we can go from there. The biggest problem with a lot of the character articles are violations of WP:PLOT. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 22:18, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm with TTN. Cleanse these with fire. They're honeypots for the most awful useless fannish garbage.

Also, fgsfds = left fist applied to keyboard. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:04, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Sonic should not be merged, because he's basically the mascot of Sega. - A Link to the Past (talk) 01:32, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I've made my opinion known, but I'm just going to back out of arguing for it, because I'm not a major person when it comes to fiction. I work more with nonfiction stuff. But I will say this: if Mario deserves his own article, so does Sonic the Hedgehog (character). Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 01:38, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, Red Phoenix. This is the discussion as it currently stands:

Requires clean up, must keep no matter what:

• Sonic the Hedgehog

Requires clean up, strong keep:

• Dr. Robotnik
• Miles "Tails" Prower
• Knuckles the Echidna
• Shadow the Hedgehog

Requires clean up,keep:

• Metal Sonic
• Amy Rose
• Rouge the Bat
• E-123 Omega

Requires clean up, weak keep:

• Cream the Rabbit
• Blaze the Cat
• Silver the Hedgehog
• Chaos, God of Destuction
• Eggman Nega

Requires clean up, future uncertain:

• GUN
• Chaotix
• Babylon Rogues
• Chao
• Echidnas

I think this sums it up. Rogue Commander (talk) 03:12, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Requires serious cleanup, merge if no reliable sources that aren't the games/comics/TV shows/PRIMARY SOURCES can be found:

All of them

That's summing it up. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:39, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes I believe everyone reading this whole subsection got this point already through your sheer eloquence. To be perfectly blunt though and while still assuming good faith...you're behaving like a perfect ass in a calm discussion on fixing the articles.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 07:49, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

There's a tendency to overcomplicate, and a distinct lack of outside perspective. What matters is not how many games a character has been in, or how important their role in those games are, or what color they are. What matters is the ability to write a well-sourced, comprehensive article. Right now, these (sometimes shockingly old) articles have not yet shown any potential to become well-sourced, and have long overstayed their welcome. The articles are bad and we should feel bad. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 08:09, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

AMIB, I agree with merging most of the characters, except for Sonic. He's one of the most iconic characters in video games - he's the mascot for Sega; his impact during the 16-bit era, both as character and and through his rivalry with Mario, was undeniable; and he's even on the inaugural Walk of Game. His article is salvageable (reducing the amount of story details and adding a proper reception section would certainly help) - "three paragraphs", as you claim, wouldn't do the character justice considering the impact and legacy the character has left. NeoChaosX (talk, walk) 08:54, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

In fact, as I look at the Sonic article, I notice it already has a a pretty decent reception section and well-sourced section about the character's creation, both the kind of real-world information that should be in a good fiction article. Hell, it even points out that the character was the inspiration for the naming of a protein! You can't get me to believe you can summarize all the information in the entire article down to a handful of paragraphs on a list. Might as well suggest to summarize the Mario article down to two or three paragraphs and merge it into List of Mario series characters as well. NeoChaosX (talk, walk) 09:17, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

The Sonic article can be saved. Nonsense like the #Character section, though, inspires ARGLEPHBARGLE and the desire to purge with fire. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 09:27, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. Agree with the Character section, though; that and the music section of the article should be whittled down, if not outright eliminated. NeoChaosX (talk, walk) 09:33, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

For starters: can you quit it with the burn with fire thing. You sound like some sort of fictional power mad dictator. And these articles are salvageable, as the head of the Sonic Task Force I will see to it that these articles are fixed in the proper way.Fairfieldfencer FFF 13:38, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

May I make a recommendation that, should you decide to just annihilate all of the character articles, that you first look to transwiki the content to http://sonic.wikia.org in case they could use the content? Also, I agree with Fairfieldfencer, WikiProject Sega and the Sonic Task Force are currently working to remove all the fancruft and clean this up. By the way, FFF, in case you haven't seen it yet, I think A Man In Black is even more deletionist than TTN, something I never thought I'd see. Oh well, his opinion. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 13:44, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with you.Fairfieldfencer FFF 13:46, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Calling AMIB a "power mad dictator" isn't really a nice thing to do, though I don't think he'd mind.  ;) User:Krator (t c) 13:48, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm just trying to point out that he's being a little over dramatic.Fairfieldfencer FFF 13:50, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

MWAHAHAHAHAHA-er. Power man dictator, I like that.

Sometimes, it's easy to get lost in "notability" and "appropriateness" and the sort of Wikispeak and stilted politeness, and lose track of why we're here: to make an encyclopedia that doesn't suck. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 16:51, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

To briefly drop in here, I think AMIB is right on every account. There's not much else to be said; a dramatic decrease in size for all of these articles, followed by a merge, would be the best option. From experience with this kind of issue (which we all share here), I think it is safe to conclude that when discussions end with results like "keep but cleanup" or "the topic is good, the article is not", the chance that nothing happens is colossal. Getting rid of the parts that should never return in whatever fashion should be the first step (speculation, plot repetition), and I think it's better to do that with the parts that need a lot of rewriting too. Editing an existing (bad) paragraph is much harder than creating a new (good) one. User:Krator (t c) 13:46, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Well I think a problem that's kinda the culprit here is after the articles like Sonic were made and dubbed good, Wikipedia shifted gears drastically and said articles were now written 'wrong'. This resulted in two problems: editors that had been writing articles that way all this time now told they don't know what they're doing, and a slew that didn't follow the guideline anymore that would've been better just "rebooted" and written over completely. So one can't jump up and down shouting hellfire too much in a case like this.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 14:43, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

The 'groups/organisations' articles should just be AFD'd IMO, as they're duplicative of the other character articles. Many of them are fictional races, not even specific named characters. I'm going to prod tag the Mobians article briefly mentioned above, that article is so obscure it's ridiculous. Bridies (talk) 14:54, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, those are just some horrible article. And I think Kung Fu Man has a point, and the articles just haven't been able to make the shift. No one wants to do the cleanup. For example, I recently requested a GAR on Sonic the Hedgehog (character) and it was delisted. I looked through the history at what it was when it passed (February 2006 or so) and it completely violated WP:PLOT. So I definitely would say that has happened. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 17:00, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

A couple of more eccentric articles: Evolution of the Sonic Universe and Roboticization (not just about sonic). Not sure if these are legit or not. Bridies (talk) 03:58, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I would just say prod or AFD the roboticization article because Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. As for the Evolution article, I'm not sure. Maybe it could be merged into the series article, but then again it concerns all of the aspects of the series, including the comics and TV shows. Not sure what to do with that one. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 12:10, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of which, I put a PROD tag for Roboticizer, but it had one already...three years ago. Don't know what to do with the article though. Can anyone help? Magiciandude (talk) 20:26, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Roboticization is, I think, original research. I'll check for sources, if there's none I'll prod it. Evolution of the Sonic Universe I think is pretty much duplicative of other articles. Bridies (talk) 09:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Magiciandude, your prod was removed. I have made an AFD for it, though. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Roboticizer (2nd nomination). Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 03:45, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Added list support to vgproj template

I've made the necessary change to the vgproj template to allow for "List" class articles for the project. We've got enough lists (with potential for FL lists) that it makes sense to have this. --MASEM 23:50, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with this change, but I seem to remember that for some reason the consensus was to not use this class. Anyone still opposes? Kariteh (talk) 07:22, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

So I take it that all lists have their ratings changed to "List" now? We change it to "FL" if they reach Featured List status? --.:Alex:. 08:58, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Correct on both counts. dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 09:02, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Here's the previous discussion by the way (which includes a link to a previous previous discussion). Kariteh (talk) 09:03, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Looking through them, we just need to be careful to make sure that things that are truly lists (per WP:LIST) are list-class while articles that are more than just lists go B-GA-A-FA (eg. Characters of Final Fantasy VIII is not a list). Some articles in early development may be mistaken as list vs start/stub class, but once an article is developed more it will be likely be easier to categorize; it's always possible to move a list to the typical article classes should be deemed necessary. --MASEM 13:29, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good. Kariteh (talk) 13:47, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Found the icon if anyone is interested: - I have also updated the assessment page to explain how the lists work and their assessment scheme. --.:Alex:. 09:38, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

What about A-class lists like List of Final Fantasy media? Kariteh (talk) 21:00, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I think that should get list class (if featured, it gets FL). dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 04:22, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll repeat this every time this comes up. Assessment classes are there to aid in improving the quality of a page. Rating pages as list-class does not improve their quality. Simple as that. In the VG project, there are many lists that would benefit from assessment just like articles do. To rate them as list class would be useless and counter-productive. User:Krator (t c) 11:02, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

But there is nothing that prevents reassessment of something that has been marked as a list to one of the article quality classes should it move being being just a list made to support a topic. (I don't know the development history, but say the FF8 characters article was initially a list of ff8 characters without the matter around it to make it notable, but instead just supporting as a spin-off of FF8. That would be a list class, but once the additional material that is now there was added, it makes it more appropriate to move it to the normal article assessment classes.

This project has numerous articles that are true lists that even with all appropriate text added, are best as Featured Lists and not Featured Articles, because they are generally written as a supporting aspect to a larger topic; the list of games for a platform or in a series, spunout lists of characters (not notable on its own as a topic) and so forth. If someone manages to find sufficient information to make that supporting list its own topic, then we can reassess it in the article quality line. But as we do have several Featured Lists, it only makes sense that we have, at some point, list-class articles that are the eventual source for these lists. --MASEM 11:19, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

On your first point, why assess it as list-class in the first place? The point is that list-class provides nothing useful at all for any kind of assessment. I don't really see the argument you bring forward here, too. Am I right in summarising it as "List class is good, because you can remove it"? This seems a rather silly argument.

On your second point, I have never said that the absence of list class means that lists would be aiming for featured article status. I've assessed many of our current featured lists according to the current grading scheme, works perfectly. The connection you make between "list class" -> "featured lists" and "article grading" -> "featured article" doesn't really exist. Of course a list is just a list, I'm just arguing that it's not useful to grade them list class. User:Krator (t c) 12:13, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Krator's point is highly valid. One issue with list class is that is lumps together everything from stubby lists like List of HummingBirdSoft games to A-class lists like List of Final Fantasy media. The innate problem with the list class is that it does not assess quality but nature. After all, articles are not rated "article class", are they? so why should lists be rated "list class" on our quality scale? Kariteh (talk) 12:47, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, another angle that I approach this from is notability and the concept of spun-out supporting articles. There are plenty of times where there is list-type content that makes complete sense to pull out from a main article to a spin out article; by notability and Summary style, this new article is not expected to show notability as it is supporting the main work. Now, in some cases, these articles can gain their own notability and grown on their own, but more common than not they can't. Classifying lists as list-class is an indicator to other editors that this article should be considered as supporting, and thus aspects that normally apply to articles (such as notability) do not apply to the list. Mind you, that doesn't prevent someone for arguing if the list is really needed if it's just a game guide or the like, but assuming the list is proper in content, assessing it as List prevents other editors from trying to call it out like its an article.

That said, I do understand the above arguments and see similar arguments at the Assessment project. There's two (three, but one's larger than the VG project) that I can see

• List class should be reserved for unpolished spinoff lists (again noting these as being such), but if they are improved, they can move up the article scale. I'd argue that lists would next move to B class, then A, then to FL, if that was the case.
• We look at a way to add another parameter to the vgproj template that adds a third classification for lists, remove the assessment of list-class, so that both articles and lists share the same listing. (The third idea is along these lines: that assessment is three-dimensional w.r.t. article quality, importance, and type, but that requires a larger change).

I still feel there's need to classify lists as lists if they aren't featured, but I understand why we want to keep track of quality too. --MASEM 13:23, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The argument you make about classifying articles as either "list" or "article" is valid; it's important for editors to know what they're aiming for (FL or FA). However, we already have a system for that: naming the article "List of ...". If it's ambiguous (such as with "Characters of Final Fantasy VI"), I think that we should codify the standard that lists always start with "List of". If it doesn't, it's an article. The "class" field of our WikiProject template is simply the wrong place to denote whether a a page is an article or a list, which seems the only argument in favour of a List-class. User:Krator (t c) 15:10, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I thought that the point was that actual lists, particularly those in a tabular format, can't really come under the same article assessment scheme as they are either really good (FL) or not (by this I don't mean bad, just not exceptional). I think that prosiac lists aren't really lists, they are indeed articles. There is a huge contrast between this and this, and I think we can all agree that the latter is really an article, not just a simple listing. I have been thinking for a little while now whether we should rename prosiac lists to omit the "List of" to help distinguish lists and articles better. After all, most of those sorts of articles aren't simply a listing of characters but an article detailing the characters. --.:Alex:. 11:19, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you, but previous discussions seem to show a consensus for the opposite view. See for instance Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Characters in Castlevania: Sorrow series. Kariteh (talk) 21:25, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

This topic was talked about at WT:FAC for a while but did not come to any consensus. Discussion 1, the original one that sent the Sorrow characters to FLC; Discussion 2; and Discussion 3, an offshoot of the second discussion. Not much came from them except it showed how much editors disagreed on the subject. It looked like it ended because people didn't want to deal with it. But Characters of Final Fantasy VIII and Characters of Kingdom Hearts kept their FA status while List of characters in Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow and Dawn of Sorrow kept its FL status and several other similar pages kept their GA status. To be quite honest, I'm not sure what standard to really take from it. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 22:56, 3 June 2008 (UTC))

Well we really should come to a decision as to which one we will use, otherwise it becomes incredibly confusing to the point where half the articles will have "List of" in their titles and the other half won't. I suppose another discussion is in order. --.:Alex:. 14:58, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Australian release dates

There's been fighting over the inclusion of Australian release dates on lists of video games by console. Some want it in, some want them out. Anyone want to comment (here)? - A Link to the Past (talk) 05:48, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Dragging more people into your edit war is also the wrong way to go about this. It's not a vote, it never will be. So far there are two that I see that want the dates removed and five or six that want them to stay AND they are the ones offering alternative means to make everyone happy. Please work with them on a solution that satisfies everyone involved. --AeronPrometheus (talk) 05:53, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the dates should stay they are very important, and I believe pages should be moved from # - N and 0 - Z.--Lbrun12415 05:56, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not even discussing that right now, Lbrun. The only thing I've asked is the inclusion of Australia, which many people seem to disagree with for whatever reason. - A Link to the Past (talk) 05:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I have seen nothing that says Australian dates should be omitted, just add them. What's stopping you? --AeronPrometheus (talk) 06:02, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The fact that it would make the article way, way, way too large? And it would take several hours to gather release dates for all games that apply? And the fact that I've been too busy arguing against a couple people who don't seem to care about Australia (and that would include you, who considers the problem of Australia's absence to be trivial banter). - A Link to the Past (talk) 06:05, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Ergo, the split proposal. --AeronPrometheus (talk) 06:13, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The number of games is not substantial enough to REQUIRE it. Size issues should not be dealt by splitting the article, but first finding what fat can be cut. I mean, if a video game article were too big, and it had, say, a list of weapons, do we split the article, or delete the weapons? - A Link to the Past (talk) 06:17, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

This article is neither, and the "list of games" is never taken into account when splitting an article. The article's total size is taken into account. This is why when you edit the article it alerts you to its size after so many bytes. And at 145 kilobytes it is highly recommended that an article be split... possibly in more than two ways. There's even a link to the Wiki guidelines regarding article size. In some rare occasions large articles are okay, but for the most part (As in this case where there can be a dividing line in the alphabet) articles need to be kept to a smaller size to allow people with slower computers and iffy internet connections to view the page without timing out. --AeronPrometheus (talk) 06:27, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

It shouldn't be split at the drop of a hat. If there's unnecessary content that can be cut to achieve the same means as splitting the article would, THAT is preferred. It makes navigation easier for the reader. A split may be possible - and the only thing it says is that it may be appropriate. If there's a way to avoid the split, that's another option, the only problem is that people do not want to choose that option at all.

Regardless, the only thing the article needs is a list of what regions the games are released in. This can be accomplished by providing one column, containing NA/EU/AUS/JPN/KOR/etc. This reduces the kb size, the literal size, and removes any need for a split. - A Link to the Past (talk) 06:31, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Except that it's not a goal to look for reason to keep articles from spliting. And the only that happened at the drop of a hat tonight was the sudden, unexplained removal of notable material from the article, the split is actually being discussed. --AeronPrometheus (talk) 06:39, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The point is A lot of the people here like the way the list is now adding more thing will merge everything together making it hard for people to read.--Lbrun12415 06:07, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

We don't omit legitimate content because people like it the way it is. Australia is a necessary region in gaming. Most games are released in Australia. All systems are released in Australia. There's no reason to omit at all. - A Link to the Past (talk) 06:09, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I believe that the release dates on there are examples of three places that get them three exapmles is good. I still don't understand why you want other places on there you say its not fair. Was it fair that whites took over blacks NO. Its life I believe that it should be split into two pages. Nothing taken off.--Lbrun12415 06:36, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

If Australian release date are in the artical itelf then there is no need to add them to the table.--Lbrun12415 06:37, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

There was hardly a need to invoke Godwin's law in this. A Link to the Past may not have any interest in having Australia there other than in fairness, I personally would like it there if only because Australia is for the most part treated as a different continent (which it is) and on most occasions has a seperate release schedule from Europe despite both using the PAL format. Chan Yin Keen | Talk 06:42, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

My theory is if you have a australian release date add it, if you dont have one or it is the same as europe you the PAL tag instead. and remember AUS inst just australia its Australasia. Maybe for the header instead of "Europe" have "PAL region" then underneath that have "(Europe/Australasia)" to allow for the potential different releases Salavat (talk) 06:49, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

As I stated on the talk page of the article: a split isn't needed at this time. Size isn't an issue. As for Australia: I'm all for adding it, as long as it can be done in a neat way. Perhaps something like Salavat suggested, would work. RobJ1981 (talk) 11:54, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Thats the problem adding it will mess up the page everything will be sumshed into on word making it hard for people to read and understand.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Lbrun12415 (talk • contribs) 15:14, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

1. Europe and Australia have different release schedules, as have been stated already.
2. That's not a good reason to exclude content. - A Link to the Past (talk) 15:33, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

No one is suggesting to not include it. It looks clear for entry. The only thing holding it back would be how to implement it and your insistence on trimming the page to keep it below 100kb. I'm thinking to WP:IAR it as far as article size is concerned. Chan Yin Keen | Talk 15:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I would give my two cents but I have no idea what article you're all discussing about. Kariteh (talk) 15:43, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Lbrun has been suggesting we not include it throughout this entire convo, and List of Wii games, Kariteh. - A Link to the Past (talk) 15:44, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Kariteh- The gist of it is that in List of Wii games we'd like to include the release date for games in the Australasian region as well as the already included Euro/Jap/US release dates.

ALttP-Thus far that's only one dissenting voice. It sounds like consensus is all go for Aussie inclusion, actually. Chan Yin Keen | Talk 15:54, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I think Salavat's idea is the most pratical. We could have a "PAL region" column and simply put the European release dates in it; if there is a distinct Austral(as)ian release date for an entry, then we could just add it below the European release date, like how the Publisher column has more than one item sometimes (in Action Girlz Racing's row for instance). Kariteh (talk) 15:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Course AUS dates should be included (as should all EN release dates, per this thing - Use the first..release in the game's country of origin...any English-language release dates available.) There's no reason to exclude them at all. Unless, of course, the EUR date is the same, in which case the date can just have PAL slapped over it. I think AUS release dates should also be incorporated with NZ ones, if the same. Fin©™ 16:00, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Whoops, I misunderstood the question. I think Australia should be recognised as another gaming territory, when different from EUR releases (if not, they can all be called PAL). Ignoring it completely is a bit much. Fin©™ 16:06, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

(un-indent) Wow, this discussion is a bit hard to follow. I agree with Link that the list can be trimmed (trying to look at the edit differences almost crashed my browser), however I do think a games release date is something that should be included in a list. But a question comes to mind, why are three release dates given in the list? It seems to me that only one column is necessary and it should list the first release date. The regions seems like they should be listed in a single, separate column. Anything beyond that can be found in a game's article.

In short, I don't see much purpose behind list the release dates by region and having them sortable. It adds a bit of unnecessary info that I think very few people would bother to sort other than to see the novelty of it. My two cents. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 16:00, 2 June 2008 (UTC))

Well that's one problem. Just mentioning regions just confirms that a game is being released in that region. The reason for including the other release dates is because you can get games like SSBB that has wildly varying release dates for the US/Jap/Euro(admittedly not as wide a gulf between Euro and Aus as I thought actually but whatever :P), and presumably some of us would like to know which was released or will be released when. Chan Yin Keen | Talk 16:16, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree there, I think it'd be a better idea to just have one column, with the game's country/region of origin and first release date. If people want individual region dates, they can go to the game's article. Fin©™ 16:20, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Chan Yin Keen- I can see your point, but I still think that level of information is best found in a game's article, and not in a list that should only cover brief information. I see no reason why the various regions can't be listed as NA, PAL, EUR, AUS, JAP, etc in a single "Region" column. I think this would be a good compromise as it would list the necessary information but trim the excess whil hopefully bringing down the page size. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 16:24, 2 June 2008 (UTC))

Quite true. This looks quite settled, but we'll see if anyone else has anything to say. I'm going to start looking at turning all the redlinked games into stubs and articles in preparation of the eventual fallout from the potential removal of most of the release dates on the list :P Chan Yin Keen | Talk 16:43, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Why can't we do what List of PSP games did? We add flags? The dates should stay, also all the other list of games did not add Australian release dates I really don't see why we should now it makes no sence at all.--Lbrun12415 16:55, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

for example we could add Title, Release date, Developer, Publisher, Released Regions, Exclus. --Lbrun12415 17:01, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

That kind of what we're proposing. We plan on keeping release dates, just only using the earliest date. by using that, we minimize the need for excessive regions. If a game was released in Europe only, list EUR, if it was released in Europe and Australia, list PAL, if only Australia, list AUS. This should keep the most pertinent info while reducing the amount of text and code needed to convey it.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the flags. Using graphics like that can slow down load times for pages. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 17:08, 2 June 2008 (UTC))

Why can't we just put other for Australia and Europe ?--Lbrun12415 17:14, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Wow edit conflicts are the bane of my life atm. Because Australia and Europe are seperate continents, with seperate release schedules, much like Japan and America. Chan Yin Keen | Talk 17:18, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Australia Is the thing that is messing this up we don't have to add it just b/c one person thinks its not fair all the other list of games did not add it.--Lbrun12415 17:21, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

We can't put Other for Australia and Europe because they are not "other" regions. They are just regions, like North America and Japan. Australian readers don't consider themselves inhabitants of "other" regions. This is the English language Wikipedia, not the US Wikipedia. Kariteh (talk) 17:23, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

As others have already stated, Australia is gaming territory like any other, no reason to exclude it for the sake of ease.

And I think listing "other" might cause confusion as to whether it was released in Korea, Europe, Australia, or all of the them. No need to exclude that level of info, if we're willing to list "other", why not take that extra step to explain what "other" is. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 17:26, 2 June 2008 (UTC))

I implore you to look at your List of PSP games you brought up earlier, Lbrun12415. What you'll notice, is that among the little flags there, Australia is one of them. So, to say that other lists don't add it, is patently false. Chan Yin Keen | Talk 17:28, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

WOW only one list Australia the others don't for example List of Xbox 360 games and List of PlayStation 3 games. --Lbrun12415 17:33, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not about to bring out a list of lists which list more than just EU/JP/US, but citing that a list does not include a major gaming region is hardly grounds for non-inclusion. Chan Yin Keen | Talk 17:37, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Lbrun, given the current proposal, AUS may not even show up on lists (I don't know of any games that were released in Australia and not in Europe), but if it does I see no reason to exclude it. And the reason other lists don't use AUS is because this is probably the first an issue has been made of its exclusion. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 17:44, 2 June 2008 (UTC))

Hmm, I'm not really happy with any solution, including the current one.

• Only listing JAP, EUR and NA release dates excludes AUS release dates.
• Not listing any release dates at all, well, has the disadvantage of not listing any release dates at all.
• Splitting the list would make the sortable feature of the tables completely useless.
• Only listing the first release date of any given region sounds like a compromise, but raises a couple of problems. First, sorting that part of the table will be kinda pointless, too, since we'd compare apples and oranges then. Secondly, what about games that have been released in on region but not yet in the other? Should we add the flag of those countries, too? If we do, we mislead our readers into thinking the game has already been released, if we don't, we mislead the reader into thinking that the game will not be released in that region at all. We could probably add the flags in parenthesis, tho. Thirdly, some games take a very long time until they're released in all regions. Ōkami was released in April 2006 in Japan, and in February 2007 in Europe, for example.

--Conti|✉ 18:06, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Note: List of PSP games has one way of dealing with future releases. Games in new regions are listed there with the release date of the region, and then the region is added as a flag to the main list once they are released.MrKIA11 (talk) 23:04, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Splitting the article doesn't make sorting ineffective, it just means that you'll be sifting through # to M in one article and N to Z in the other or however the split takes shape. If someone's looking for a title then they should be able to narrow their search to one or the other before needing to sort. I think it's interesting, and I pointed this out on Talk:List of Wii games, that there's both a sortable table and a table of content; using one makes the other useless as the code for both doesn't work together. --AeronPrometheus (talk) 18:35, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, you don't need a sortable table to find a certain title. But if you want to find all games by a certain publisher, or all games that were released in a certain month, two separate lists aren't very helpful. The TOC only works when the table is sorted by title, obviously, yes. (Alternatively, we could have separate TOC's by developer, publisher etc., but that would be rather silly.) --Conti|✉ 18:43, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Compromise

It sounds like reducing the releases dates and adding in a region column is the best compromise for now that most people are gravitating towards. And while we're reducing the amount of information regarding the release dates, I honestly think it won't cause more problems than it solves.

• Should reduce page size and in turn load times.
• Reduced size will allow the content to remain on a single page.
• Addresses the Australia issue.
• Still allows titles to be organized by release date, though on a global scale instead of regional.

Something I think we get caught up in general is trying to make things as blatantly obvious for readers as possible. In my opinion, this is a good example of trying to accommodate everyone who might look at the list. And while making information as accessible as we can is a good goal, making it accessible for everyone is not possible. I see no reason to include excess information to accommodate a minority (readers looking for a table sortable by regional release dates), when such information already is available in each game's separate article, though not in a sortable, consolidated format.

I'd say let's try out the format on List of Wii games, and if it works out, apply it to similar game lists. Any thoughts? (Guyinblack25 ^talk 19:13, 2 June 2008 (UTC))

I like this idea of having a region column and having either a single first release date or doing away with it altogether. Although whether we'll actually get to implement it or not remains in question considering Lbrun12415's and A Link to the Past's difficulty in even coming to terms with each other's issues. And to sate anyone's curiousity over whether there are games that are released in the AU region instead of the EU, the PS2 and Xbox had AFL Premiership 2006 and other games within it's series which were exclusive to Australia. Come to think of it, the bigger question right now is if we can't have the Australasian region included alongside all release dates, in a toss up between either, do we want to know where the game is being released, or when it is being released? Chan Yin Keen | Talk 14:10, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Keep the status quo

I'm fine with listing the release dates of the three largest markets. The Australia issue, quite frankly isn't an issue. We're not going to be able to contain every market's release dates in lists, and I'm OK with just listing those of the three largest markets. It already is a compromise between listing every nation and nothing, and for me the top three is enough. - hahnchen 21:06, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Why stop there? It seems like a pretty arbitrary stop. It's not like Australia is some irrelevant little country. No matter what happens, Australia WILL eventually be included. This thing happened with Europe, when people didn't think that Europe was relevant enough to be included in lists, or that North America was always the default country - titles should be based in their NA titles, boxarts the NA boxarts, and some people have even argued that there should be a default listing that basically screws EU over.

Release dates make the article excessively large. Why stop at release dates? We could also list all other consoles the games are on, Mii support, which controls the games support, etc. Why do we need the dates? Other lists work just fine with just the countries that they were released in. - A Link to the Past (talk) 00:37, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Shut up and stop it I'm getting tired of trolling on my page undoing what you do as vandalzium trying to make every one happy. Stop trolling grow up and stop undoing what i undo.--Lbrun12415 00:39, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

If you're referring to the vandalism of my comments, I do not believe that you are able to tell me to stop reversing the vandalism of my comments. - A Link to the Past (talk) 00:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Australia WILL not eventually be included if people don't like the idea then It wont go on all you have been doing was fight with people you messed up the Nintendo wii games I asked you nicely to see the talk page but what do you do trolling, undoing my work, fighting with others Stop get over it Australia is not on the list the world is not going to end.--Lbrun12415 00:45, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

No i'm talking about the stuff you do with out seeing the talk page once someone told you to do in the 1st place we all know your trying to get back at me so stop it.--Lbrun12415 00:45, 3 June 2008 (UTC)--Lbrun12415 00:45, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Ohhh yeah, I'm just trying to get back at you. It's not the fact that you have been constantly vandalizing my statements and have declared yourself to have some imaginary right to do so, it's some grudge. I gave you the option of stopping or getting blocked, you chose the latter.

And what are you even talking about? I haven't edited the List of Wii games since mid-yesterday, and have been discussing the subject quite intently.

And you've gone to multiple administrators accusing me of vandalism and personal attacks on multiple occasions, so I don't think that you're in any position to tell anyone that they're just "trying to get back at you". - A Link to the Past (talk) 00:49, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Thats what i'm talking about you have to see a talk page before removing important information such as release dates.--Lbrun12415 00:55, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia:Be bold, I don't. I made a good faith edit on what I considered to be the right course of action. I do not need to be granted permission to make the edit. The whole reason the policy exists is to encourage people to alter the article in any way they see fit, save for edits whose sole purpose is to intentionally damage the article. The saying is "Edit, Revert, Discuss", meaning I edit, you revert, we discuss. - A Link to the Past (talk) 00:58, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Whoa, hey now. This is starting to degrade to a shouting match. Perhaps we should let the matter rest for a day and then address it again. Until then, I think it would be a good idea to hold off editing the various game lists. I sure that doesn't sound unreasonable. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 03:57, 3 June 2008 (UTC))

Great, right on the day I picked to send List of Sega 32X games to WP:FLC. Well, I guess it's out of my hands now. Can you guys please just get this resolved? Also, I couldn't find a reliable source with any Australian release info for this particular list, so I'm worried that if we have to have Australian info, this article might fail FLC for that sole reason. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 16:46, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

If there isn't any sources for Australian release dates, one can just group it under PAL instead of having Europe, which would cover Australia. This fact is a reason why I think we should not use release dates - without them, and simply stating which regions a game is released in, we know it can likely avoid the problem of no sources for the info. - A Link to the Past (talk) 17:03, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

As Link stated, simplifying the content will reduce the need for precise sources. Generally, when "PAL" is listed as the region, that normally encompasses Europe and Australia. If "PAL is listed in the sources, then there shouldn't be a reason to need a source for an Australian release.

However, I still believe that at least one release date, the earliest one, is needed to convey a proper, yet concise, overview of a game in a list. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 17:15, 3 June 2008 (UTC))

Also writing "PAL region" or "PAL" is better because it makes flags unnecessary (there's no flag for PAL). A lot of people dislike using flags in lists. Kariteh (talk) 17:23, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The Australian market is tiny, certain constituent markets within Europe have a larger market than Australia. A rough comparison would put the European market at 10 times the Australian one. The entire Australia argument is a side issue that has only been raised to try and get rid of all release dates. Currently, the three dates covers the vast majority of the market, we don't cover everyone, but that would include the listing of all countries, and I'm happy with that. So, we've worked on a law of diminishing returns, how useful would one more date be? If you really want a scheme to cover everything, then I'd suggest Americas, EMEA and Asia Pacific, but given how zero games are released in Australia first, it effectively ignores it. Korean release dates will probably have an impact though. - hahnchen 18:24, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for telling me that I am, in fact, wrong - even though common sense dictates that since the whole issue of release dates came up as a result of my annoyance with the continue bias against anything not American, it must be your little conspiracy theory. Australia is a legitimate gaming industry. It does much better than you imply, and I don't need you putting words into my mouth. Yeah, I may have dozens of instances where I got into debates over naming conventions, box arts, other countries' inclusion, etc., but this is the exception - I don't REALLY care about Australia! - A Link to the Past (talk) 18:35, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

It'd be more convincing had you tried to add Australian release dates at any point to the article in question, this looks like a stalking horse issue. I called it how I saw it, you tell me I'm wrong, that's OK with me. The Australian market isn't "better than I imply", the European and American markets are greater by a factor of 10. In the Asia Pacific region, the biggest market after Japan is probably Korea, and I wouldn't be surprised if it were China after that. - hahnchen 20:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

And may I ask if Australia is not important, why are all Wikipedia game articles encouraged to include the release date for Australia? As well as GameFAQs? - A Link to the Past (talk) 18:45, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

While having multiple release dates in a list can be helpful, including them on such a large scale can be counter-productive to the list's structure. And removing them completely will reduce the usefulness and comprehensiveness of the list. For lists of this size in scope, compromises must be made to comply with guidelines. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 19:03, 3 June 2008 (UTC))

Hmm, do we have any actual data on how big the Australian gaming market is compared to the European, Japanese and American ones? --Conti|✉ 19:07, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Somewhere we do. However, it's clearly not an issue with mentioning Australia on articles, so why on lists? And don't compare it to the many non-English regions that also get mentioned - Australia is the only dominantly English country that isn't acknowledged besides South Africa, which falls under PAL release dates, IIRC. - A Link to the Past (talk) 19:14, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, we don't list Australia in the lists because of size issues, right? We list the three biggest (and most important) markets instead. If Australia is indeed tiny compared to those, I don't see anything wrong with it. --Conti|✉ 19:22, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

There are ALREADY size issues. Under your logic, should we next remove Europe? - A Link to the Past (talk) 20:04, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Just checked, Hahnchen wouldn't be overly wrong with his guess at the European market being 10x the size of the Australian market. A recent study has put it's worth at 11.3 Billion (and yet 2nd place! as far as market share is concerned), while the Australian market has been hovering in and around the billion dollar mark. And Lbrun12415 can you please indent your comments properly? Chan Yin Keen | Talk 20:16, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

While at it, I believe this is in contrast to the fact that we are looking at a continent with a population of 500 million, compared to Australia which has about 20 odd million people in it, if I'm not mistaken. Chan Yin Keen | Talk 20:20, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I think Australian release dates can be noted in articles, I generally don't, but listing multiple countries in a game article is different to listing multiple countries in a list of games article. I would not remove European release dates, I think that loss would be too great. I mentioned diminishing returns earlier, that doesn't kick in until the top three markets have been mentioned. - hahnchen 20:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

And Europe is much smaller than North America's market, with some exceptions. Being smaller than Europe HARDLY constitutes "being too small". Japan is also a smaller market than Europe. Regardless, you ignore the point - it doesn't NEED Australia to be incredibly large. - A Link to the Past (talk) 20:29, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

And I might add that its worth being 2 billion while Europe's worth is 11.3 billion with 500 million people. Considering the population of Australia, that shows a stronger market than people make it out to be. If you are saying that Australia's not important enough, I could probably find 20 million people to disagree with you on that. - A Link to the Past (talk) 20:29, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the data! So the European, American and Japanese (Asian) markets are all pretty much the same size (10,5 to 11,5 billion dollar), while the Australian market is worth about 1 billion dollar. That's a pretty convincing argument to keep he status quo, IMHO. --Conti|✉ 20:35, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Alright, that settles the issue. Let's remove all the Australian release dates from every video game articles! Kariteh (talk) 20:37, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Huh? --Conti|✉ 20:41, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I was gonna say that I think when it said Asian it was really talking about China. I'm not entirely correct, since I found data saying that China is worth 1.6 Billion. Not bad for a country whose market should probably consist of practically nothing but MMORPGs. Chan Yin Keen | Talk 20:48, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, so, 20 million people spent nearly 2 billion dollars? So pitiful. Well, you're right anyway - I mean, we ARE the naeu.wiki, not the en.wiki! And you conveniently ignore the fact the article IS TOO BIG AT THIS VERY MOMENT. You are arguing we shouldn't mention Australian dates (because I guess it's some little irrelevant country, not the fourth biggest console and handheld region in the world) because it would make it too big, so logically, since the article is too big NOW, you should be fine with all European dates being removed to reduce the size of the article. - A Link to the Past (talk) 20:43, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

And Kariteh, I agree - Australia, that little pitiful country that spent a lot of money on games despite the lower population, should simply be removed. - A Link to the Past (talk) 20:43, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

It's not just smaller than Europe, it's smaller than several constituent countries which make up Europe. Your 2 billion figure is wildly off the mark. - hahnchen 20:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

It's very large considering its size. There are sales trackers for it, it has its own game rating system, and developers in this region have made many games (including the Viva Pinata DS game, the upcoming de Blob, all three Ty the Tasmanian Tiger, most of the recent Spyro games, Puzzle Quest, many AFL games, MANY licensed games, and I believe most notably, LucasArts' upcoming Star Wars: The Force Unleashed). To say that Australia is so small that it cannot be mentioned in a list of video games is basically saying that all of that doesn't even matter. - A Link to the Past (talk) 20:57, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

(unindent, ec) Could you please calm down a bit? First of all, I don't really think that the article is too big right now, but others might disagree, of course. Then again, that's beside the point, right? You started this thread to talk about Australian release dates in lists of video games, after all. And all I'm saying is that, no, I don't think we need to include Australian release dates in lists of video games, because (1) that would make the lists even bigger, and (2) listing the "big three" (so to speak) video game markets is enough, especially when all three markets are ten times as big as the next biggest video game market. This has absolutely nothing to do with being anti-Australian, by the way, and it's a shame that I even have to say that. --Conti|✉ 21:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

1. "This page is 146 kilobytes long. It may be appropriate to split this article into smaller, more specific articles. See Wikipedia:Article size." That's a HUGE ARTICLE.
2. Did you even read any of the discussion? I guess reading the VERY FIRST line and only that is good enough for you.
3. And Australia's gaming market can NOT be compared to Spain's or France's, not at all. It is a significant market. You're confusing "less significant" with "insignificant".
4. And yes, it's ALWAYS anti-something. It was anti-North America (Japanophiles), then it was anti-Europe, then anti-Canada, and now anti-Australia. And I doubt it's going to be that one time when people successfully omit such content from an article. - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:14, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

A huge article is this talk page. 216kb and rising. Phew! I think we're starting to blur the lines between the Australian gaming industry and the Australian gaming market. The gaming industry can account for many fine games out there, whereas the gaming market is well, less significant if only due to a much lower population. Do try to keep your calm though, it's hardly anti-Aussie. It's more of a case of what do we classify as significant and how do we term it significant. Chan Yin Keen | Talk 21:26, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

It's also a problem that Conti's grasp of the discussion is limited - it's been proposed that the release dates be reduced to countries of release. - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:36, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia has policies and guidelines of notability, NPOV, etc. These rules apply to all pages which are part of the main namespace, i.e. articles and lists. As Masem has demonstrated below, if Australian release dates are notable enough to be mentioned in articles, there is nothing that justifies their omissions from lists if release dates are to be included in lists. Omitting these dates, whether in articles or lists, introduces either bias or incompletedness. Personally, I think this is why Guyinblack25's proposal above is still the best one. We can't practically put all release dates in the lists, but we can't cherry-pick some regional release dates and omit the other notable regional dates either. Listing only the first release date would resolve all the problems. Kariteh (talk) 21:43, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Our release dates will always be incomplete, we are not introducing it. Our articles will not list the release data for every single country, it will always be "cherry-picking". Picking the big three markets, which cover the vast majority of the international games market, for me, is acceptable. I have never bought into the idea that "englishness" matters, as Masem points out, we should not be prioritising small markets over larger ones just because they speak the right language. If we go back to the original question, "Should Australian release dates be added to list of... articles?", the answer is no. But then again, as I mentioned before, this entire discussion has nothing to do with Australian release, but just a stalking horse discussion to remove all release dates. No one has even attempted to include them in any list of article. - hahnchen 22:40, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Even though articles constantly mention China and South Korea. And Hahnchen, no matter how many times you try to make your wrong, uninformed, and simply ludicrous attempt at a cognitive statement worth the bandwidth it wastes worth reading, it will always be a pile of mediocrity. All you've been doing since the very beginning is essentially calling me a liar, since, despite the fact that I've already STATED my intentions, and I mentioned the bias within the article for not including Australia. Do you think you could assume good faith? In your history as an editor, could you? God forbid that though. I guess you'll ignore everything but your little imagination yet again, just like when you didn't respond to the fact that I brought up the lack of Australia LONG before I edited the List of Wii games to remove release dates. Go get some editorial integrity, please. - A Link to the Past (talk) 23:00, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Let's please kept this calm and civil on all sides. The consensus right now is not in favor of removing all the release dates, simply reducing the number to a more manageable amount while maintaining a neutral point of view. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 23:07, 3 June 2008 (UTC))

Link I don't want to start fighting again but please GAMEFAQs, GAMESTOP, TOYSRUS. are not sources they seem to be I also thought they were sources until I went to SSBB (Super Smash Brother Brwal) page and they were all yelling at me for adding GAMEFAQs, GAMESTOP, TOYSRUS as sources.--Lbrun12415 20:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Wow, be quiet. After you continuously vandalized my statement, I have decided to be done with you. - A Link to the Past (talk) 20:12, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

WHy do you have to be so rude and you call me a troll. I'm trying to help.--Lbrun12415 20:18, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Here's my take on this. We are en.wikipedia.org. While we want to avoid systematic biases towards the rest of the world, our content is geared towards English-speaking countries. This is primarily North America, Europe, and Australia; there are other parts of the world where English is spoken but not as common. (certainly to the point where "English as national language" and "major video game release market" overlap) To ignore Australia just because it's probably 1/20 to 1/50th the size of the North America market, despite the fact that they fit the content aim of WP, is doing a disservice and introduces a systematic bias within the bounds of English-speaking regions in the area. Release dates for games in Australia can be confirmed, they add a few lines to infoboxes and tables, but are an important data point for research purposes (such as the fact that Aussies generally get games last despite being the same as PAL versions, or are the most expensively priced games). Those three countries, if possible, should be listed for every VG release. The only other time a non-English speaking country/region should be listed is if the game is first released in that country/region, or was developed primarily in that country/region as the common game with Japan. --MASEM 20:31, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Just to clarify, we're talking about "List of [console] games" articles here, not about articles about individual games. No one disputes the addition of Australian release dates in individual articles about games. --Conti|✉ 20:37, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Same reasoning applies, IMO. Australian dates are too important to be overlooked if they are available in en.wikipedia.org. --MASEM 20:58, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

This decision and impact at WP:FLC

Look, I really didn't want to get involved in this argument since it doesn't really matter to me. But, as I've sent a console list to FLC today, List of Sega 32X games, I've grown concerned about this issue. For that list, I just have one set of release dates, and they're not even really "dates", just years by the American release (which are all either 1994 or 1995). However, this decision will seriously impact this list and all of the other lists that go to FLC, anyway. Here's the immediate impact: If we decide that Australian dates must be put in, just like we do with Japan, North America, and Europe, then I might have to pull the list from FLC, since I can't find a reliable source that has info for what games were released in Australia (just unreliable ones, the reliable sources I used to source the list only had the other three). This could also be a problem for any other lists that go to FLC if no such reliable sources name what and when games were released in Australia. As I found out through unreliable sources, not all of the games on the list release in Europe (PAL games), were released in Australia. I'm just asking for the people involved to consider this, since I can't do anything about the list at FLC until this issue is resolved. I'm just sitting on my hands at the moment. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 00:05, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Compromise version

I thought it'd be useful to see how the compromise version would look like, so I created a short version:

Title	Developer	Publisher(s)	First release date	Regions released
Super Mario Galaxy	EAD Software Group Tokyo	Nintendo	Template:Dts2
Super Monkey Ball: Banana Blitz	Amusement Vision	Sega	Template:Dts2
Super Paper Mario	Intelligent Systems	Nintendo	Template:Dts2
Super Smash Bros. Brawl	Sora Ltd.	Nintendo	Template:Dts2	( )
Super Swing Golf Pangya! Golf with Style EU	Ntreev Soft	Tecmo Nintendo EU	Template:Dts2

I excluded the "exclusive" column, since most "List of .. games" don't have one, either. The parentheses indicate a game that has not yet been released in a certain region. The biggest disadvantage I see is that it's not possible to sort the list by region anymore. That could be solved by the following:

Title	Developer	Publisher(s)	First release date
Super Mario Galaxy	EAD Software Group Tokyo	Nintendo	Template:Dts2
Super Monkey Ball: Banana Blitz	Amusement Vision	Sega	Template:Dts2
Super Paper Mario	Intelligent Systems	Nintendo	Template:Dts2
Super Smash Bros. Brawl	Sora Ltd.	Nintendo	Template:Dts2			()	()
Super Swing Golf Pangya! Golf with Style EU	Ntreev Soft	Tecmo Nintendo EU	Template:Dts2

Then again, this would make it impossible to list further regions, so I'm not sure which version is better. An "Other" column could be introduced to the above table, tho. --Conti|✉ 01:17, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I like the first one, though I think the abbreviations should be used instead of the flags. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 02:51, 4 June 2008 (UTC))

I think that the there should be no region specified in the First release date column, and the regions should be in order of release date, as is in List of PSP games. The only question I have, is that if we use the abbreviations, what would it look like? It seems to me that it would just be a jumble of letters that way. MrKIA11 (talk) 02:58, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Flags should not be used; they slow down the loading of the page and are not practical for visually-impaired people. Moreover, the flag guidelines say that in the cases in which they are used, the full name of the country should be spelt out at least once next to the flag. Abbreviations are better and there are no guidelines against their usage here. Kariteh (talk) 07:39, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, flags don't slow down the loading time at all, I think, since it's just four very small images that need to be loaded. And the name of the flags is spelled out in the mouse-over. As far as I know, that turns into text if you turn off images. So I don't see anything wrong with flags from a policy/guideline point of view. Additionally, what abbreviations should we use instead of the flags? "JAP, NA, EU, AUS"? Or should we spell out the entire name of the countries? --Conti|✉ 12:57, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, why shouldn't the region of the first release date be mentioned in the release date column? Alright, it does make sense if the region flags (or abbreviations) are sorted accordingly, but apart from that it seems like useful information is lost for no reason. --Conti|✉ 12:57, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

If the regions are put in order of release, then I think having the region next to the date would be redundant. MrKIA11 (talk) 14:15, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

In regard to the flags, I agree with Kariteh. Though the flags wouldn't take long to download because they're a fraction of a kb, loading issues become more apparent when those same images are displayed 100+ times in the page. That and making the pages more visually-impaired friendly are the reasons flags have been slowly phased out from video game articles.

Another issue is that there is no flag for the PAL region. And if a game is released in Europe and Australia, I see no reason why we shouldn't list just "PAL". Basically, why use five letters when three gets the job done? The only reason I think EU or AUS should be used is if a game was released in only one of those regions and not the other. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 14:35, 4 June 2008 (UTC))

Nor is there a flag for "US + Canada", which is why most articles use an abbreviation for North America instead. Nifboy (talk) 14:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

... And we did get in a huge argument the last time people tried to use the US flag to represent all of North America. There are significantly more editors from Canada than from Australia, for whatever it's worth. --Slordak (talk) 15:44, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Yep, and also the fact that the European Flag doesn't represent all of the countries of Europe. - X201 (talk) 15:51, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't mind using text instead of flags if there's consensus for it, but do all readers know what PAL means? And, anyhow, PAL includes China, Brazil and most of Africa, too, at least according to our article about it, so I don't think we should use "PAL" either way. We could just as well combine North America and Japan into NTSC then, after all. --Conti|✉ 15:07, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The "PAL" we're talking about here should link to PAL region, not PAL. Wikilinks are there to click if the reader doesn't know what something means, and they're certainly more user-friendly than flags (which link to images instead of articles). North America and PAL region are general terms used to describe regions; saying that a game was released in the PAL region doesn't necessarily mean it was released everywhere in the PAL region. Same goes for North America, which technically includes Mexico and all of Central America. One could think that using these terms is an inaccuracy; yes, it is to some extent, but it's less inaccurate than symbolising North America with the US flag or the PAL countries with the European flag. The PAL region article does mention that its scope vary with systems and publishers (and that China is not considered part of this video game region despite using the PAL TV system), so there's nothing to confuse readers there. As for symbolising North America and Japan by NTSC, I think there is no need for it; games almost always have different release dates between North America and Japan. Kariteh (talk) 15:26, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Title	Developer	Publisher(s)	Release date	Regions released
Super Mario Galaxy	EAD Software Group Tokyo	Nintendo	Template:Dts2	Japan, North America, Europe, Australia
Super Monkey Ball: Banana Blitz	Amusement Vision	Sega	Template:Dts2	North America, Japan, Australia, Europe
Super Paper Mario	Intelligent Systems	Nintendo	Template:Dts2	North America, Japan, Europe, Australia
Super Smash Bros. Brawl	Sora Ltd.	Nintendo	Template:Dts2	Japan, North America, (Australia, Europe)
Super Swing Golf Pangya! Golf with Style EU	Ntreev Soft	Tecmo Nintendo EU	Template:Dts2	Japan, North America, Europe, Australia

Yet another table with the above suggestions. --Conti|✉ 15:13, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Cool, it's really starting to shape up now. Thanks for taking the initiative Conti. One suggestion though, I think using the abbreviations (JA, NA, EU, AUS) would be less cluttered and save on space. We could include a brief mention of the regions in the lead with the full region names followed by the abbreviations in parenthesis.

As far as the whole PAL/NA thing the more I think about the more it makes my head hurt. You're right that PAL encompasses more than just Europe and Australia, but then again North America encompasses Mexico and other Central American countries even though most games are released in only USA and Canada. I think we've always just used NA and PAL because that's what's been used for most release dates in game articles on Wikipedia and in sources like IGN and GamePro. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 15:36, 4 June 2008 (UTC))

Hmm, I'm not sure about using abbreviations, considering that we don't have any size problems with the current table layout in the first place. And apart from saving some space, I don't see any advantage in using abbreviations.

Huh, I didn't know there was an article called PAL region (Thanks, Kariteh!). It's not even linked from PAL (Well, it now is). And, at least in the 5 articles linked in the table above the release dates for Australia and Europe are listed separately (since the games are/were released at different days in all five cases). --Conti|✉ 16:17, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Title	Developer	Publisher(s)	Release date	Australia	Europe	Japan	North America
Super Mario Galaxy	EAD Software Group Tokyo	Nintendo	Template:Dts2	yes	yes	yes	yes
Super Monkey Ball: Banana Blitz	Amusement Vision	Sega	Template:Dts2	yes	yes	yes	yes
Super Paper Mario	Intelligent Systems	Nintendo	Template:Dts2	yes	yes	yes	yes
Super Smash Bros. Brawl	Sora Ltd.	Nintendo	Template:Dts2	(yes)	(yes)	yes	yes
Super Swing Golf Pangya! Golf with Style EU	Ntreev Soft	Tecmo Nintendo EU	Template:Dts2	yes	yes	yes	yes

Since the current consensus is that there is no need to show regional release dates in the lists, is there a need to know the order of regional releases? The important thing is whether a game was released in X, not whether it was released in X before Y or after Z. Perhaps each region should have its column instead of being in a single one. It would make the table less cluttered and fully restore the usability of the sorting function. Kariteh (talk) 16:00, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

What if instead of just having yes in the regions it was released, have what number it was released, as in first, second, third, etc. MrKIA11 (talk) 16:26, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not too thrilled about splitting up the regions, but then I'm not thrilled about sortable tables period. It works though, I just don't think it offers much usefulness to the general reader.

MrKIA- What would be used for games that were not released in a region, an —? (Guyinblack25 ^talk 16:47, 4 June 2008 (UTC))

Nothing. A blank. MrKIA11 (talk) 16:57, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm not sure. I mean, if we do it like that we could just as well add the actual release dates instead of a "yes" or "no". Which, of course, would invalidate the whole point of the compromise version. --Conti|✉ 16:51, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Adding release dates would make the page size very big and would make the table very difficult to read in low screen resolution (each date would take two or three lines instead of one, and even on large screens it would still be kind of cluttered). Concerning the use of number for the order of releases, it could be done I guess but personally I think it's a bit of a trivial information. Kariteh (talk) 17:17, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, one flaw I do see with this format is that, on very long lists, the readers could have forgotten the names of the region columns by the time they reaches the middle of the page, since the yeses and noes all look the same and the region's names are only indicated at the top (it could be indicated at the bottom too, but still). Perhaps Conti's format is better concerning this point, since the region's names appear in each row. Kariteh (talk) 17:23, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Additionally, it's not possible to add custom regions (so to speak) in this version of the table (The same problem applies to my second example above). Some games are only released in the UK (Gottlieb Pinball Classics), for example. --Conti|✉ 17:43, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Just to make sure we're all on the same page: The third version with a single column for regions and no flags is the one that seems to work the best. And the only issue still in the air is whether to list the region's full name or use abbreviations. Sound right? (Guyinblack25 ^talk 19:37, 4 June 2008 (UTC))

Yes, I agree. I think abbreviations would be better, mainly because there are articles that have more columns, and therefore having a smaller Regions column would help with space. MrKIA11 (talk) 19:44, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the abbreviations too. They look better especially because they're not just used in the region's column; they're also used for alternate titles and publishers (see "EU" above). Using full names would just clutter every column. I also agree with the idea of mentioning the full region names in the article's lead followed by the abbreviations in parentheses, so that it is absolutely obvious what the abbreviations mean in the table. Kariteh (talk) 21:29, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I've implemented the new way on List of PSP games if anyone wants to have a look. MrKIA11 (talk) 16:28, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it looks good. I expanded the lead a tiny bit. If this works I guess we should implement it on other similar lists. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 16:43, 5 June 2008 (UTC))

Looks good, but what are we to understand when the number of publishers isn't the same as the number of regions? Aces of War has "Taito / 505 Games" followed by "JP, EU, AUS". Kariteh (talk) 17:56, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

How about this we add Asia Pacific and take out the japan one since Asia Pacific covers japan, Australia, New Zealand....etc. http://www.nintendo.com/countryselector .--Lbrun12415 22:46, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

But the two regions rarely ever release games at the same time, besides the fact that no other sites/sources use that. MrKIA11 (talk) 22:53, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

List of Achievments/Ubidays

Two things:

The first is that i think it would be an awesome idea to make a list article listing all the acievments to Xbox360 games.

Also maybe we should make a Ubidays article. For those of you who don't know, Ubidays is the first official press confrence of the year with Ubisoft where they announce all their major upcoming games. This is indeed a notable article that I want to make and would like to know if you guys think it's a good idea.Gears Of War 12:24, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Ubidays. Provided the article is good enough and not just a press release re-write, I can't see a reason for it not to be in. As for achievements, I would need to be convinced beyond the initial "they exist so they should be listed" argument. - X201 (talk) 12:46, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Ubidays has become a reasonably big event, and is probably worthy of inclusion, as long as it's not a press release re-write, as X201 says. Achievements, absolutely not. Wikipedia is not a game guide. Fin©™ 12:56, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with X201 and Falcon. The Ubidays sounds like a viable article, but a list of 360 achievements would only be useful to gamers. An average reader could read a handful of achievement examples and determine what they are, so there'd be no need for a full list that would probably be very very long. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 13:12, 3 June 2008 (UTC))

...not to mention that achievements are the big sticker text for "do not want" per our VG guidelines... Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 14:33, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Cool, well then I'll get started on a Ubidays article in a few days.Gears Of War 22:22, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

 Done. Page createdGears Of War 20:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Umm, what should be on the Ubidays page should be information on how, why, and who behind its creation and organization. How the gaming and non-gaming industry recognizes it should be there too. In the current state, it is simply a list of announcements that would fall under WP:NOTADVERTISING of What Wikipedia is not. Jappalang (talk) 23:09, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Help with Ubidays stuff

I need some serious help with the Ubidays article. I had no idea what to put in the article so I just through in a list of announced games and a image and bang....you gotta a Ubidays article. But there are a number of things I would like to have in the article.

1. I really wanted to list some of the features and stuff the presentators mentioned about the announced game.
2. Next, I wanted to list who created it and all that good stuff that Jappalang mentioned, but I dont know where to find it(it's so f-ing hard to find refs)
3. Also, the articles importace is currently listed as low. But this is a huge event so shouldn't it be high or top?
4. I need help looking at past Ubidays gatherings. But the Ubidays website only list stuff about the 2008 press confrence.

So...help...please?!Gears Of War 20:08, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Left Behind: Eternal Forces Reception

For the third time the reception section in this article has got another edit were over whether the game received a "mixed" or n"negative" reception. I've tried to discuss this on its own page but its nothing but war war war and ignoring claims. Now the game has an average score of 45% (of 19) at Game Rankings... thats a negative average, regardless of the few positive scores and I wouldn't call that judgment POV. Then theres Metacritic that has some different reviews than GR with an average of 38 (of 20) called "generally negative", thats a source that says negative in bold red, none say "mixed" and we've used MC in plenty so doubting its credibility would mean a mass removal from all articles. It seems clear it was negative and if not generally or on average then its "mostly negative" atleast. Now those who say its "mixed" argue that its because it has some positive reviews (being the smaller amount) however I disagree with this given that by that logic Condemned 2 was mixed because of the 5 less positive reviews or many other game articles with a "postive reception". I mean technically all games are "mixed", heck if you look a Rotten Tomatoes, all films are mixed, this is why we say negative and positive on wiki by using averages (mixed usually being in thr 5 to low 7 range).

I hope User talk:67.135.49.116(talk) takes up the chance to discuss it here as one on one arguments never get anywhere and am pefectly happy to see how it was "mixed" and even call it that, its just so far however I'm not convinced. Stabby Joe (talk) 15:37, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

• Metacritic cherry-picks reviews - up to 30 from a list of over 120 - and arbitrarily assigns a numerical score to reviews that aren't scored in any way. Here's another source for reviews: GameStates compiled list of reviews for Eternal Forces. Looks pretty mixed to me. How about this list from Game Rankings? Also mixed. Yahoo! Games shows mixed as well. So three sources that show mixed reviews vs. one source with mostly negative reviews. I don't see how Metacritic is any more reliable than these other sources (and I've already mentioned how I see it as less reliable). 67.135.49.116 (talk) 03:49, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Cherry-picking is when you give special consideration to a select minority. Metacritic's score of 38 is not unreasonably deviated from the mid-40% average reported by the other sites. There is one party in this discussion who is guilty of cherry-picking, but it's not Metacritic. Ham Pastrami (talk) 07:37, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

As for "arbitrarily assigning a numerical score" to something, that's called "reviewing" and it's the whole point of the reception section. Kariteh (talk) 07:42, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Gee, here I thought "reviewing" was about being objective. I give your comment a score of "5 out of a billion." Hey, I'm just reviewing! 67.135.49.116 (talk) 14:29, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Gosh, what ever could you mean? So much for AGF. 67.135.49.116 (talk) 14:29, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Slight problem with condemning MC given that if it was 45% (GR's total) on MC, it would be negative still. Stabby Joe (talk) 12:03, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Forest for the trees. 67.135.49.116 (talk) 14:30, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

No, arguing about the numbers at all is forest for the trees. There should be some expounding on why some reviewers called it good and others called it bad. The Wired quote is essentially fluff and no more informational than saying it got a B+ from UGO. Nifboy (talk) 15:03, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I think expanding the text is most needed for improvmnet but of course we want to avoid future edit wars, hence what we have here. And 67.135.49.116, making remarks as such isn't reconmended when we're supposed to discuss nor is it helping your argument. Stabby Joe (talk) 18:30, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I'm not a fan of using aggregate sites as a source. Instead, I prefer to cite scores and review content from recognised reliable sources such as print media and high-quality gaming websites. This means that it can not only be demonstrated what the score was, but why it was awarded that score. Besides, Gamerankings and Metacritic scores can change over time, while review scores rarely do. Having said that, I would urge editors to looks at the pros and cons clinically and devoid of passion or colourful metaphors. Your reasoning should stand on it's own merits, not based on how you present it. Gazimoff ^Write_Read 19:07, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Your first point is definitely valid, and it means that individual reviews should be mentioned; it doesn't mean aggregate scores should not be used, however. There's no reason we can't have both, for different and equally valid reasons. Concerning the fact that aggregate scores may change over time, it's not really a problem since an accessdate is given in citation templates, so that what we cite is meant to reflect a given date, not necessarily the future. Compare with sales figures, which also change over time but which are not problematic since a sales figure must always be associated with a given date or period of time. Kariteh (talk) 21:37, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Why not just present the various scores as they are and not make any judgments about what they do or do not show? Let the reader decide what to think of them. 67.135.49.116 (talk) 16:42, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Thats is completly doable. The main reason for past debate was because the vast amount of other game articles (not all of course) give atleast some form of average. Stabby Joe (talk) 18:24, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

http://www.vgboxart.com (dont fall for it dudes)

Hey, if you ever create a article and it needs a cover pic, dont go to http://www.vgboxart.com it is a trick. I dont know how you could accidentally end up there(like I did), but dont fall for it. Those are just Adobe pics that fans made up to make each other feel good. Look on official websites, or even gamestop.com (if you dont mind a small pic). Rememeber...dont fall for it.Gears Of War 23:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Considering this is at the top corner of the page Welcome to the Video Game Box Art community! A hobby and enthusiast site for box art/covers. Browse to see what people have made for your favorite games and check out the Hall of Fame to see the cream of the crop. Join to start creating and sharing your own! I think most people will relaise what is going on. --76.66.180.234 (talk) 01:34, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Smart comment, but if you enter the site from google.com, the message does not appear just the box art which will leave completely oblivious to the:Welcome to the Video Game Box Art community! A hobby and enthusiast site for box art/covers. Browse to see what people have made for your favorite games and check out the Hall of Fame to see the cream of the crop. Join to start creating and sharing your own! smart a--Gears Of War 23:19, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

76.66 was just replying, there's no need to insult him, Gears of War. As for Google Image search, it does take you to the site, so the message does appear in addition to "» Viewing Box » Unofficial »" which is also quite self-explanatory. Kariteh (talk) 07:18, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

WP:FICT

I invite all present to head on over to WP:Notability (fiction) to look over the proposed guideline, as well as to comment on it. There is currently an RfC on it. This will impact the local project by a large amount. --Izno (talk) 02:12, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

To Izno's invite, I add an urge. Please form an opinion and comment here, we need some kind of consensus here, one way or the other. User:Krator (t c) 15:48, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Initial glance looks ok. Anything I should pay attention for here?--ZeWrestler ^Talk 04:27, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

WP:MILHIST and WP:VG collaboration

Following discussions, it has been decided that the two projects will undergo a 30-day trial of shared review assets; effective June 1st, all peer review requests from VG should be cross-posted for MILHIST editors to provide constructive feedback, and vice versa.

At the end of June we will revisit the program and assess its results, and if consensus from both projects' members is in favor of maintaining the program, we will take steps to make this a permanent feature.

To invite MILHIST participation in a VG peer review, please post the following boilerplate at WT:MILHIST: {{subst:Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Coordinators/Toolbox/Partner peer review notice|Name of article|Raw link to review|Video games}} ~~~~

Kirill ^(prof) 00:20, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

How will the effects of collaboration be determined? Is this going to be a statistical comparison type of thing ("our articles this month got better reviews than last month"), or should we mark ourselves as being from the VG project when we do peer reviews for MILHIST? Ham Pastrami (talk) 05:14, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

This is good news... yay! To Ham, I think marking yourself as a VG guy would work. giggy _(:O) 10:24, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Concur. Just indicate you're part of VG and vice versa for our peer reviews. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 10:34, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Just a happy comment to say that I like it :) User:Krator (t c) 10:49, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Partner peer review for Lince (tank) now open

The peer review for Lince (tank), an article within the scope of the Military history WikiProject, is now open. The Military history WikiProject is currently partnering with our project to share peer reviews, so all editors are cordially invited to participate, and any input there would be very appreciated! Thanks! Kirill ^(prof) 00:23, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Krator and me have reviewed this article. Remember to advertise yours on the MILHIST page, everyone. giggy _(:O) 10:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Not only us, Izno and Ham did the same. User:Krator (t c) 11:00, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

B4U the song vs B4U Movies and B4U Music

I had a discussion with someone who, despite his loose grasp of keyboard typing, had a very adamant view about how disambiguation pages should work. B4U was created as an article long ago about the Naoki song in the Dance Dance Revolution series. This article was brought up for deletion and the result was to redirect it to the Dance Dance Revolution 4thMix article and move relevant content there. User:Bleaney Has created two stub articles for Bollywood TV stations with B4U (formatted exactly the same) in their titles. He turns B4U into a disambiguation article and links his articles and the 4thMix article. When I saw the changes I made modifications based on my understanding of how disambiguation articles work, I re-directed B4U to the 4thMix article and created B4U (disambiguation) with an OtherUses tag at the top of 4thMix "B4U redirects here, for other uses..." and made appropriate formatting changes as I found the need to. Bleaney undid my changes citing that because the search term is part of the two stub's titles that there should be a forced disambiguation to the term "B4U" and it should not go first to the 4thMix article, specifically the song titles B4U.

I let the issue rest, after much unneeded chatter, and looked up the style guidelines for disambiguation articles. If I read it correctly, anything existing in Wikipedia that matches a search term exactly should have said title, and anything that would have that term in the title (but not make up the full title of that item, I.E. Gas vs. Gas Pump) would get redirected from the article with the exact term to allow people to find a disambiguation without doing an actual search. The thing that's fuzzy for me is, B4U was not an actual article it was a redirect to a section of an article. Albeit B4U could be built into an article, as the song is a staple of the series, part of published music albums, etc... but as it stands it is not. Should B4U go to the song with the exact name and offer a link to other articles with B4U contained in the title, as guidelines instruct, or should searches for B4U force a disambig, due to the current state of things? And if the term B4U became a full article would that change things? --AeronPrometheus (talk) 05:33, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

As usual in Wikipedia, the answer is "it depends". As I understand it, you have to ask yourself "If J. Random Reader types 'B4U' into the search box, what will they be looking for?" If you can come up with an answer that is correct most of the time by far (be sure to consider other English-speaking countries than your own), the term should redirect to that answer and that target page should have a hatnote. If there is no clear winner, the term should point to the disambiguation page. It doesn't really matter whether B4U (the song) is a full article or a section of an existing article, AFAIK, just what meaning most people will assume when they see "B4U" without context. Anomie⚔ 11:14, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

My recommendation would be to leave the dab issue alone for now, and put these new stubs to AfD, as they do not seem to assert or establish any notability. (Aside from their own home page, I didn't find any related hits on google.) If the articles are deleted, there's only one thing to do with the dab page. If they're kept, then we can pick up this discussion again. Ham Pastrami (talk) 20:30, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not going to try and delete an article out of my way, there are plenty of people on Wikipedia that do nothing but delete therefore I do nothing but create and edit. I won't object if someone else does, and I kind of agree that there's very little notability. I was just trying to clear up guidelines that didn't present a totally clear answer to me. I suppose I can tag them with a notability in question template but because Bleaney responded so strongly to me he would probably edit the tags off at the first sight. Doubly do if it was me doing the tagging. --AeronPrometheus (talk) 07:07, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Template:FFtitlebox renaming

Should this template be renamed to something more generic, since in addition to the List of Final Fantasy media article, it's used for List of Bleach video games, List of F-Zero titles and Video games notable for negative reception? And the same tables are also used in List of Castlevania titles, List of Harvest Moon titles, and other articles, albeit in direct wikicode instead of template transclusion. Kariteh (talk) 09:13, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

FFtitlebox --> VGtitle? Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 09:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

VGtitle sounds good. giggy _(:O) 10:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

While we're on the topic of this template, should some title headings be added to help illustrate what the content is? Like the system releases, those may not be completely obvious to someone not familiar with video games. Any thoughts? (Guyinblack25 ^talk 14:45, 5 June 2008 (UTC))

Clean artwork vs box art

I was wondering on opinions on this concept. I've only seen it in use on Halo 3 and Halo 2, and have just implemented it on Half-Life 2: Episode Two due to finding the artwork and the alternative Steam title looking rather poor. What is the view on using promotional artwork and clean artwork of the box art image, as is usually done by our editor friends for films? I personally think its a really good idea, as its the image with the title that matters more than the "PC DVD" or "Xbox" parts of the box art. That, and having a box art shot that says "Only on Xbox!" when the game's on PC as well is misleading to readers, especially considering that the infobox will usually contradict this immediately after the image (unfortunately the person who uploaded the art for Halo 2 and 3 missed Halo 1). Of course, its not always available, but I think it looks much better when it is used. -- Sabre (talk) 17:16, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm all for it. GTA IV uses clean artwork as well. - X201 (talk) 17:23, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't know, I guess part of me is just use to seeing the actual game cover there. But I honestly can't think of a reason why it would be a bad idea. It would alleviate some immediate confusion. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 17:29, 5 June 2008 (UTC))

I think either of the two can be used as long as the caption parameter of the infobox is used to describe what it is. Kariteh (talk) 17:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I prefer to use the actual box art if it's an exclusive to one platform. If it's a multiplatform game then it's simpler to use clean art. --Mika1h (talk) 18:13, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

From my own arty perspective, I go with clean, especially when we are commenting on something in the image; the XBOX 360/PS3/whatever logos are just distracting in that case and we can squeeze more informative pixels out of it. I dunno who changed the Halo 2, Halo 3 images, I don't really care either way. I have no idea where they found them, though. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 18:28, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

For consistency, too, I might crop the Halo image so it removes the rating and the Xbox header... Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 18:30, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to what has been implied, but I would to clarify that we are not comparing "clean art vs box art" but "clean box art vs actual box art". The image should still be representative of the box art in either case, and not be some completely different image. If no actual box exists, as might be the case with HL2 Ep2, then I'd be ok with using any promotional image, and if you find a better version of said image, that's ok too. I'd also shy away from a comparison to film, as they generally use theatrical posters/print ads, which is equivalent to using game ads from EGM. Ham Pastrami (talk) 02:56, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a reasonable restriction. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 17:10, 6 June 2008 (UTC))

I'm all for it. The boxart design is far more important in the lead image than what system the game is avaliable on and what the rating is. That information is already covered in the info box. Plus it's great for multi-platform games (such as GTA IV), and it prevents the debates in the past as to "What platform's cover should we use?" and similar such edit wars. --.:Alex:. 10:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Page move proposal

I propose we move List of Sega Mega Drive and Sega Genesis games to List of Sega Mega Drive games (a current redirect). There was some discussion about it a while ago, but I don't think those people realized one thing: the Mega Drive and the Genesis are the same console. Sega Mega Drive is the parent article name, so why shouldn't the list name match the parent article? I think it's ridiculous the way it's set up now. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 02:53, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Makes sense. Ham Pastrami (talk) 03:00, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, it was defeated last time. Talk:List_of_Sega_Mega_Drive_and_Sega_Genesis_games#Requested_move. So maybe this time we'll have a different consensus. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 03:11, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd say that the move should have happened - the reasonings for opposing were based on them being misinformed. - A Link to the Past (talk) 03:18, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, given the situation last time and the failed nomination for the move, I figure we should let a little more consensus build before moving the page, just in case. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 03:20, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Consensus in this case would need to be established on the article's talk page, since the current record there shows no-joy for the move. You have basic support here, so go ahead and re-open that discussion and we'll comment there. Ham Pastrami (talk) 07:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Id support that. Salavat (talk) 03:39, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I support the support the move as well, its been the one article that retained the ugly compromise naming format. List of Sega Mega-CD games has a redirect from its alternative name (Sega CD), List of Sega Mega Drive games games makes sense to be the same. - X201 (talk) 08:42, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Having supported similar Mega Drive moves, I'm not sure about this one. It seems to me that a valid point was brought up in the previous discussion about games that were only released in North America being exclusively "Genesis" due to never having seen release on a "Mega Drive". For that reason I think the current title is probably better, or at least more accurate, than moving to Mega Drive only. Though I'd prefer to see that redundant second instance of "Sega" taken out. Miremare 12:46, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Mega Drive and Genesis are the exact same console. We can move the title and rewrite the lead to clarify this. I have intentions to clean this list up, should List of Sega 32X games make it past WP:FLC or at least get close. How does that sound? Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 14:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I know they're the same console, but the fact is that there are a number of games that were realeased only on the "Genesis"-branded version of it and never appeared on a version branded "Mega Drive", which is not what the proposed new title implies. Cf. List of Famicom games and List of NES games. I'm not saying go as far as splitting to two lists, but these games are a distinction between the Genesis and Mega Drive brands, despite them being the same machine. Miremare 14:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

To me, that's not a very convincing argument, Miremare. My apologies that I am refuting most of what you say with what I'm about to say, but here's my opinion: The two lists you mentioned are not a good example, because in my opinion they should be merged and keep the "Nintendo Entertainment System" name since it is the one used here on Wikipedia. Likewise, the same is my opinion with the Mega Drive/Genesis list: the parent article is called "Mega Drive", not Mega Drive / Genesis. Now, should it be noted somewhere that the North American model is called the Genesis? By all means, yes. But that's what the lead section is for. The current list title is an ugly compromise that shouldn't be there. By the way, I am an American and grew up calling it the "Genesis", if you're thinking about pulling some comment about that (not that you would, just letting you know). Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 15:44, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Red Phoenix's points. While the American version of the console is named Sega Genesis, the name Sega Mega Drive can still be used as a generic name for all versions of the console. In fact, this was the whole point of naming the console's article Sega Mega Drive instead of Sega Mega Drive and Sega Genesis. The arguments brought up in the console's article debate are equally valid for the list of games in my opinion. The list should be List of Sega Mega Drive games. Kariteh (talk) 15:59, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Well Red Phoenix, I'm British and always called it the Mega Drive, so nobody can accuse either of us of bias! Yes, the console itself is rightly at Sega Mega Drive, and I have argued for it to stay there on the occasions that it has come up for debate again. However, this isn't the same issue; games exclusive to North-America were never released on any hardware bearing the "Mega Drive" name, therefore I don't believe it's right to state otherwise in the article title. I'm not objecting to the proposed move, I'm merely pointing out that the current title is a more accurate one, and therefore, IMO, a better one. Miremare 16:56, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Well at least there's no bias lol. The console is rightly put at Sega Mega Drive, as you said, because it is the more international title (Japan and pretty much the whole world other than the U.S. use it). True, these games we're talking about weren't released on a system explicitly named "Mega Drive", but it is Mega Drive hardware nonetheless, as much as the Famicom is NES hardware, though we use NES because it is the more international title. The only real hardware differences (other than design and NTSC-PAL) are anything to do with regional lockout—much like what Nintendo did with the SNES. As I have suggested, it certainly shouldn't go without note that the North American games were released on hardware called "Genesis", but I think it's more appropriate for the lead section, much like what I would do if I were given the Famicom and NES lists and merged them. Speaking of which, I would do that if that was my focus, but it isn't; right now, I'm working with Sega lists, like List of Sega 32X games. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 17:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of which, while we're on that subject, I invite everyone to check out the FLC on the 32X list and give their comments. If it passes, I'll start working on more lists like the Mega Drive/Genesis/whatever consensus decides to call it list. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 17:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Also, I'm going to copy and paste this discussion at Talk:List of Sega Mega Drive and Sega Genesis games#Move Request 2 and we'll build consensus there instead of here, per Ham Pastrami's suggestion. Please continue all discussion there. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 17:16, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Would it not solve the "released only for Genesis" issue if the article was renamed and an additional column added in to dictate "Only released in North America" or something? Jappalang (talk) 21:52, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Why don't we just add a "regions released" column period? Every video game list really should have one. I even have a reliable source ready to source the released regions. Also, I do have intentions to clean this list up after List of Sega 32X games is out of WP:FLC. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 22:59, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Delete of a redirect

Hey can i get an admin to delete the redirect "Harvest Moon: Tree of Tranquility". so then i can move the page "Harvest Moon: Tree of Tranquillity" (theres a double L typo in the current title) to that location. Thanks, Salavat (talk) 04:59, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Done. In the future just use {{db-move}}. Cheers, Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 05:02, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Kool thanks, and thanks for the template link, will come in helpful. Salavat (talk) 05:34, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Tranquillity can be spelled with one or two Ls. As there are no official translation for the game, neither is more correct. --Mika1h (talk) 12:05, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmm learn something new everyday. Although there is an now an official cover art of this game on Natsume's english site which uses the single L, just in case you were interested

WWE SmackDown vs. Raw 2009 Roster list

Can I add the confirmed roster for the game?. Please send me a message to my talk page. --KingOfDX (talk) 08:57, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

If it's confirmed by a reliable source I'm 99% sure (s)he can. Anyone wanna confirm? giggy _(:O) 08:59, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Semi-related, didn't we have a previous discussion that for rosters like this that it makes sense to create a separate page ala the Super Smash Bros. series to list who are in the games, and what specific games they are in? --MASEM 12:56, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I believe the ball started rolling on that, but it didn't get very far as most of the games still have their respective rosters in. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 14:40, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, per previous discussions at Talk:WWE SmackDown vs. Raw 2008 it was determined by consensus that the roster lists would only be added when IGN/GameSpot/or a reliable source announced the full roster list. In response to Masem, that had been discussed before, though it was disagreed by users and no consensus was formed around it. The other thing is, that WWE games are different than games like Mario, WWE acquires new talent every year, and loses talent every year, so the list would keep growing and growing, eventually the list will get to huge, and will look difficult to read, and it would take up a a lot of amount of space, and would look redundant in that way.--SRX^--LatinoHeat 16:01, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Question regarding List of Harvest Moon titles

Ok first of all id liked to thank everyone who helped this article become a featured list. I have one query though:
In regards to the games that were remade, say for example Harvest Moon: Back to Nature, it has been remade two times, one time for a girl oriented version (Bokujō Monogatari Harvest Moon for Girl) and another for a boy and girl version on the PSP (Harvest Moon: Boy & Girl). So my question is should these remake be listed as seperate entries on the list or should they remain under the one title of Harvest Moon: Back to Nature. Although while asking this question some remakes already have an entry on the list, one of those remakes is Harvest Moon: Another Wonderful Life, a girl orientated version of Harvest Moon: A Wonderful Life. I made the list as to what game articles were already here on wikipedia. Salavat (talk) 14:47, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

When making the Castlevania list, Sephiroth BCR, myself, and one other editor were discussing something similar to this. I believe we tried to minimize remakes as much as possible and include them in either the "Notes" or "System release" sections of the title boxes. But yeah, I think we also included some because they had an article. For instance, I honestly don't know why Castlevania (video game) and Vampire Killer are two separate games as the only difference are a few gameplay tweaks and the originating system. But Konami has them listed as separate games on their website and they are two separate articles on Wikipedia. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 15:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC))

Thanks for the answer, that cleared up my query nicely. Ill leave it as it is then. Thanks for your help, Salavat (talk) 16:14, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Partner peer review for Battle of Lissa (1811) now open

The peer review for Battle of Lissa (1811), an article within the scope of the Military history WikiProject, is now open. The Military history WikiProject is currently partnering with our project to share peer reviews, so all editors are cordially invited to participate, and any input there would be very appreciated! Thanks! Kirill ^(prof) 13:55, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Project Guidelines - clean-up proposal

I'm proposing a clean-up of the content guidelines for video game articles. Please visit Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Article guidelines and look for the thread I started. (There was a discussion not more than a week ago where the consensus was that the guidelines were good in effect, but needed to be better organized and clarified. I want this discussion to be strictly focused on clean-up.) Randomran (talk) 04:15, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Update: I wouldn't normally bump something. But I figure this is pretty central to the wikiproject. A discussion has ensued, and some revisions have been made to the proposed guidelines to improve their clarity. If people could give the proposed clean-up one more look to make sure they're the same as the current guidelines in substance, I'd greatly appreciate it. Head over to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Article guidelines Randomran (talk) 15:59, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Kirby's Dream Land

Just curious, would anyone say that this article could one day be featured? I believe I've found as much information as I could, so I don't think it can be added to at all, only maybe copyedited and such. - A Link to the Past (talk) 19:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

In terms of size, length has not been a major issue in featured articles, as long as it meets comprehensive criterion. That said, it's a bit thin on content. I'll try going through ProQuest and seeing if I can find you some print reviews or summat'. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 19:20, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

• I'd have thought there'd be a fair bit more reception on the first Kirby (!) game. giggy _(:O) 08:46, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

After a quick glance, it's possible. Some of the sources look a little shaky though. Did you check the Magazine archive? (Guyinblack25 ^talk 15:18, 8 June 2008 (UTC))

If only this game was ever re-released (that is, in an English territory). Too bad there's little opportunity for it to be re-released, save for Nintendo announcing a "Virtual Handheld" service. - A Link to the Past (talk) 16:49, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Voice actors in an MP game

Someone has editted Team Fortress 2's class section to add all the voice actors for the nine classes. The problem is that it looks a right mess now, spread with red links and all - only three of the actors have articles. Is there a better way to integrate the information than as it is now? Although the actors may be a helpful edition, they can't stay in their current format. -- Sabre (talk) 22:31, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Create a section in Development called "Voice acting". Make sure to include the fact that Ellen McLain voices the announcer in there as well. --MASEM 22:37, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

IMO voice actors should not be listed unless they are notable persons and have an article on the wiki. Otherwise I don't see any justification that these credits would be added while others are not (programmers, etc). An exception would be if the VAs were called out by name in press coverage. (Ellen McLain's performance in Portal was mentioned in several sources, I'm not so sure about her or anyone else's voice in TF2.) Ham Pastrami (talk) 04:17, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Ham. Though voice actors constitute real-world content, a full listing of voice actors adds little and they should only be included sparingly if the actors are notable. In Kingdom Hearts#Voice cast and Kingdom Hearts II#Voice cast, a good chunk of voice actors were left out simply because listing all the notable ones would have bloated the section. It's like most everything else, a general overview will suffice. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 04:38, 8 June 2008 (UTC))

The voice acting has not been covered that much in reviews and other reliable third-party sources, so I've dealt with the problem by removing them. -- Sabre (talk) 10:22, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

At what point to create new articles/redirects for sequels?

New game franchises are usually not a problem in this area, as in only a few cases, the franchise is officially announced by the company at some large event (E3) or press release; the few cases involve special "code name" projects and the like.

However, when you have a series, people are always looking for words of sequels and expansions, so the sources for these can become less authoritative or reliable. The case in point is "Guitar Hero: Metallica" which was listed in Activision's SEC filings, but otherwise has not been officially announced by the company or any other source that doesn't ultimately point here. I'll also add in "Beyond Good & Evil 2" as another, but different, data point: Ubisoft announced this themselves but all we have is there announcement and a trailer.

My take is that when there's a reliable source that says a sequels coming, we obviously create the article, but the content will vary depending on the source. If the announcement is from the company /developer directly (BG&E2), a new page with content is warrented. If the information is secondary, such as for GH:M, it is worth mention on a series or previous game page, but the page should be redirected until more concrete information can be provided. If any less than two sources exist (considering the ultimate source of any source), the redirection should be in place.

That's my take, any other opinions? --MASEM 14:52, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Amending to add in another data point GTA V. Here's a case for redirection to the series article. --MASEM 16:03, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

To structure the discussion a bit, there's three basic possibilities here:

• Just some rumours, e.g. random forum posts and blogs. Per WP:V, created articles should be deleted.
• Established sources, but no official announcements. This is the grey area. I'm inclined to say that there's no difference between this and the last option, see WP:VG/S. This is up for debate though. Your suggestion about a note on a series article as all we should do has merit as well.
• Established sources and an official announcements. Usually warrants an article.

User:Krator (t c) 15:46, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

All this sounds very reasonable, however, I don't know if we'll actually be able to enforce it. There are plenty of editors wanting to create articles for every new game announced regardless of sources available. Some just don't realize that a stub doesn't always offer much to interested readers. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 15:49, 8 June 2008 (UTC))

Mostly agree with Krator;

• Just rumours/blogs; delete per WP:V.
• Sources but no announcement; mention in series/previous game's article, and create redirect.
• Sources and official announcement; create article.

giggy _(:O) 02:05, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Virtual Console prices

Since we're now adopting the newly revised "inappropriate content" article guidelines (thanks much to User:Randomran!), I'd like to point out that List of Virtual Console games (for each region listed) includes Wii Points prices for each class of game (NES, SNES, etc.), and prices for specific games that differ from the norm for that class. I'm wondering if we should consider pulling the prices from each of those articles as a strict interpretation of the guidelines, or if people think the prices should stay. I'm interested in hearing the rationale for keeping the prices on these lists. My personal opinion is that they don't serve any significant purpose there and should be pulled. Thanks. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 18:26, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

There's no real reason for them to be there. Prices are already covered in other articles (or at least they should be. I say get rid of them. --.:Alex:. 18:33, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I think we had a similar discussion about something like this before, but I don't remember when or what the consensus was. Anyway, I believe the prices, even Wii Points, violate WP:NOTDIR as the prices turn it into a "resource for conducting business" and/or "sales catalogs". Though I think a brief mention of the pricing in the lead would be alright so long as only a few prices are given as examples. Something like, "Virtual console games are priced differently by their system of origin. For example, Nintendo Entertainment System titles are generally priced 500 Wii Points, while Sega Genesis titles are generally 800 Wii Points." (Guyinblack25 ^talk 19:05, 8 June 2008 (UTC))

I don't really have an opinion on the issue, but if the prices should be removed from the lists, they should also be removed from List of Xbox Live Arcade games for the same reasons. --Conti|✉ 19:10, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree on that. There's no particular reason to list those prices for XBLA - mentioning that games generally cost between 400 and 1200 points in the main XBLA article should be sufficient. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 19:23, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Previous discussions (about the Virtual Console prices at least) weren't ever a consensus in my opinion. I still strongly feel that prices shouldn't be listed on the list pages, or the game pages. Wikipedia isn't a price guide, nor is it any form of shopping website. People can find the prices easily on the official sites listed in external links. Seeing as how no pages list prices (except for downloads such as Virtual Console and Xbox Live Arcade), they shouldn't be exceptions. I also remember something about how pricing should be only used if it's an antique or a high value at an auction (or similar things). Neither of those apply to basic downloads of video games. RobJ1981 (talk) 20:08, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Prices should be removed. I think the main reason why download catalogs often have this stuff added is because it's authoritative and easy to verify (which does not imply that it's encyclopedic). The same could be said if you were to make vendor-specific lists like List of games available at Best Buy (don't). The difference is that VC/XBLA are considered to be platforms, which is why these lists are allowed to remain at all. Ham Pastrami (talk) 22:01, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I think we should have the prices the way they are as of this writing. Mention them like "Each SNES game costs 800 wii points" or something like that but not for each game. Dont have price as a seperate column though in the lists. guitarhero777777 (talk) 22:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Do you think it would be fair to use something like the wording given above on the main Virtual Console page? "Virtual Console titles can be downloaded for between 500 and 1000 Wii Points, depending on the system and/or the specific title"? This gives a range of point-prices to work with, without going into price-guide specifics. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 22:50, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I like that idea. If anyone is intrested in the exact price though, we should add the prices at least to the individual game pages or something like that. guitarhero777777 (talk) 23:10, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

While we try to provide as much information as we can, specifics like pricing doesn't really constitute encyclopedic content. That's why WP:NOTDIR stipulates such content should be excluded. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 23:17, 8 June 2008 (UTC))

I think there's a little bit of paranoia going on about the prices. I agree there's no need to go add VC prices to every game article, and including the price for each game in the "List of VC Titles" article is not needed, but removing all mention of prices entirely seems like it might be excessive. It may be useful to a reader to know that NES games are generally 600 (or whatever), SNES 800 (or whatever), N64 1000 (or whatever), and so on as an indication that Nintendo thinks newer old games are somehow worth more. Anomie⚔ 00:25, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

That's exactly what I was trying to say. I do believe there should be some mention because some people (like me) might be intrested. I'm not attached to the prices, so I dont care if we delete them if they truly violate policy and are trivial. I'm just intrested and believe there should be some mention of them. guitarhero777777 (talk) 03:00, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I think prices should not be indicated since Wikipedia is not a buying guide. Megata Sanshiro (talk) 12:01, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure briefly listing a few prices as examples in the lead of a page is within guidelines, though I'm also sure others could argue otherwise. If we keep it to a minimum, we should be ok. But I'm certain the current setup where exact prices are given for each game—whether in a list or an article—violates WP:NOT. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 17:50, 9 June 2008 (UTC))

I'm pretty sure it's forbidden for prices in dollars; why would it be different for Wii points? Megata Sanshiro (talk) 17:52, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

You're absolutely right. However, I believe the alternative Keifer and I are suggesting, listing only a price range as an example to explain how games differ in prices, is within the guidelines. It helps describe the organization of the games while excluding a full listing of prices. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 22:59, 9 June 2008 (UTC))

Stuff for my homework (everyone please help out)

Please. Wikipedia is not a forum. Go to IGN or Gamespot. Ta'. weburiedoursecretsinthegarden 20:29, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

See, this is what I was talking about. You just can't win if you're going to be inconsistent about this sort of thing. (Looking mainly at Link here.) — KieferSkunk (talk) — 20:40, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Huh? ffm 20:51, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I was the first to respond to GoW's request by saying this isn't a forum, and both GoW and Link jumped all over me about it saying I was being unnecessarily unfriendly. A couple other users also pointed out the "not a forum" thing, and now WBOSITG has closed the discussion on that basis, even after ALTTP posted a rather unfriendly remark himself about it. So, I'm mainly upset at ALTTP's rude response to RobJ and the fact that, harmless as a discussion like this may have been, it points to people wanting to be inconsistent about the rules. When people start bending the rules due to convenience or WP:ILIKEIT, one has to ask why the rules exist in the first place.

In short, if people are going to yell at me for having forum-style discussions in article/project talk pages, then they should yell at everyone for the same thing. There's very little that irritates me more than seeing some people get preferential treatment, regardless of the rationale. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 21:02, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

My two cents- Is this clearly a forum-like topic? Yes. Should such topics be avoided here? Yes. Does it hurt to loosen up for one time to get to know each other a tiny bit? I'd say it's arguably beneficial to productivity. So while I don't agree with Gears using the talk page to do his homework, I do think the thread turned into something a bit more community oriented and was a welcome change to the normal discussion we take part in.

Now, I'm not saying this is something that should occur regularly or even every now and then. But it did happen, and it made sense (to me anyway) to roll with it in the spirit of community. Sometimes we need a reminder why we're editing on here in the first place. It's for Kingdom Hearts, Shadow the Hedgehog, The Curse of Monkey Island, and Grand Theft Auto IV, and for the rest of the fans out there interested in those games. I know I don't have the stamina to do this without a reminder every now and then, not for free anyway.

I doubt something like this will happen again, and even if it does, I trust it'll be a long time from now. I see no need to blame or hold any ill-will to anybody involved; the editor who started it, the editors who participated, or the editors who stopped it. In short, it happened, nothing was really damaged or hurt, and it is best to go back to business as usual. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 22:05, 9 June 2008 (UTC))

Sorry but there is some really serious stuck up stupid ignorant shit goin on in this fucking project. My main concern is with that god damned Kiefer Shark. Who dare you come out and act like me and Link attacked you. That is staright BULLSHIT! You jumped on me dude. I just wanted some god damn help with some frekin Home work. I asked for help and you jumped on my ass just for asking for some help!! And then you have the god damn nerve to say I was attacking you. BULL, Im always getting jumped the fuck on. So get your foot out your ass and stop trippin. I wont ask for nothing any more. Did the mo-fo creators of Wikipedia ever think about fun...do they have lives...at all!! You guys get a fucking problem with every DAMN thing I say. I'm out of the damn project. I may stay a bit active with discussions but I cant deal with this shit. If you gotta problem with this message come kiss up at my talk page. But people like Guy In Black always see the reason in what I do, so thank you.Gears Of War 23:44, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I did not say I didn't see the reason in your request. I simply informed you (politely, I might add) that we have a policy on what Wikipedia is not, and I happen to be a person who believes in consistently applying the rules to everyone. I tried to steer you in a direction that I thought would be more helpful to you, and I felt that it would be more helpful to everyone to do so. I've seen other similar requests in the past, and I wanted to avoid having this turn into a flame war like has happened in the past.

I don't really mind if you have a problem with me personally, but you need to (a) cool down and (b) avoid personal attacks. I understand you're upset, but cussing me out (and further assuming I was acting in bad faith) is only going to lead to you getting blocked if you keep it up.

Finally, I did not say YOU were attacking me. I called out ALTTP for his comment to RobJ1981 about "did this discussion hurt you in some past life?", which struck me as particularly rude and out of line (but certainly not inconsistent with things I've seen him say in the past). I also criticized the project in general for being inconsistent about the rules, and pointing out that I have been yelled at for similar forum-like conversations held in Talk space in the past. So, frankly, it upsets me to see yet another instance of "It's okay if this person does it, but not if you do it" being dictated to me.

I have left you an NPA warning on your talk page. Like I said, cool down and come back when you're ready to discuss this in a civil manner. And if you have a problem with me personally, you are welcome to take it to my talk page, so that the rest of the project doesn't have to be bothered with it. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 00:04, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I reacted to Rob the way I did because I was also dealing with a naming conventions debate at the anime WikiProject. You can understand what this can do to a man. - A Link to the Past (talk) 00:41, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

And I hardly rudely reacted to you. I said "you don't have to be so uninviting", that's pretty light of an "insult". - A Link to the Past (talk) 00:44, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I have nothing to do with the naming conventions, so don't drag that into it. The subjects aren't related. RobJ1981 (talk) 00:48, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

It is directly related. I responded the way I did because of a heated debate with people who refuse to support any guideline besides their made-up ones, and having to go through four discussions to get any progress in something that should have taken one. I am sorry that I vented my frustration at you, but trying to keep the tension up high is not going to help anyone. - A Link to the Past (talk) 00:51, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Boy, it sure doesn't take much to get everyone to misconstrue everything I say, does it? :P Let me state AGAIN, for the record, what I said earlier: I was upset at Link's response to RobJ. I was annoyed by his response to me personally, but I went along with it since it appeared other people were doing so as well. But I thought Link's comment to RobJ was particularly rude, and given the context since then, I think it was also totally out of line. Though since it was directed at RobJ, I'll let him deal with it as he sees fit.

As for the blowup between GoW and me, it's being dealt with. I think it's under control for now, and hopefully there won't be any more of that here. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 01:04, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Gears, if I'm not mistaken, did you not criticise User: Hahnchen for using bad language on this same project? People are bound to get upset and annoyed and think: "you know what, b******* to the project". I think we all know that I've felt like this at my most stressed time. The policies are here to be enforced, and ultimately to improve the subject. There may be confusion at the lenience—or lack of—by which they are imposed, but that's just a testament to the diversity of people you get on Wikipedia. I'd take issue with attack or strong sentiments to this wikiproject specifically—the policies are supposed to be imposed everywhere, and from my experience here the users are more inviting than most when comes to relations on a talk page. Thanks. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 06:40, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I did get on Hanachen for his language. But at that point I had never been un-civil. But like I stated in my appology and like i was told by Hanachen and another editor..."Wikipedia is not censored"...and the reason why I criticised Hahnchen was because I thought children editors like me might be offended by that sort of language. But now I see, be civil, but that dosen't meen you have to be some sissy making everyones life better...but to make Wikipedia and your experience with it better.Gears Of War 20:12, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't want this to come across as condescending, but inadvertantly, you've probably learnt alot from this dispute. It's one big learning curve, and everybody's still learning. Happy editing. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 20:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

{{WikiProject Video games}}

I proposed that the template be changed to use {{WPBannerMeta}} on the talk page. Please comment. Thanks, MrKIA11 (talk) 16:00, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Another suggestion for a task force: Key VG Terms

While we do have articles on selected video game terms, I think it may be worth our time to make sure that we have a good body of terms that we can wikilink to in gameplay and other sections for reference. However, we want to avoid making this a glossary but make sure to group and discuss terms in the proper sense.

For example, "hit points", "life meter" and I'm sure a half-dozen other terms can be grouped into a common article about how a player's health is measured in a game, not to attempt to historically describe the term (though if possible, we should). In this example article, for example, you'd have a section on "lives", on "hit points", and so forth, using sources that state which games have these (aka reviews, and for better or worse, as with Super Mario Galaxy and its lives system).

The task force would first need to list all possible terms, ignoring article organization to start with. From there, various articles should become obvious for grouping, others may need more work; once there, we take any article we have already, add what new content is needed (ideally, in the task force, one article at a time so these all end up B-class or better articles after the TF is done), and get them all cleaned up for use elsewhere. --MASEM 19:00, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

This, to me, seems like GCOTM material. I would strongly support this kind of task force, no matter how we implement it. Just off the top of my head, there's lots of strategy gaming terms like: Build order, Micromanagement, Rush, Tank rush, Technology tree, Turtle and Spam that all need to be raised up to at least B-status. GA status would be nice, but even just a little attention would be nice. Oh, and all the video game genre terms could really benefit from some good research and consensus-building. If we can put together a team large enough to make meaningful progress, you can count me in. Randomran (talk) 22:23, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Several more terms already on Wikipedia:

• Game mechanic
• Health (game mechanic)
• Non-player character
• HUD (video gaming)
• Experience point
• Magic point
• Boss (video games)
• Mob (computer gaming)

... Okay. There are still more out there. I dare say some of them are redundant or can be lumped together into one article establishing notability for a concept, instead of being spread across several articles with the barest of sources and ideas. Jappalang (talk) 00:55, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

FAR

Final Fantasy IV has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here.

It has since been removed since the conern was simple to deal with. --76.71.213.183 (talk) 23:53, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

My tribute to the Wikiproject

Template:Anti-WPVG...dudes.Gears Of War 00:02, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Not to rain on your parade, but you should move that to User:Gears of War/Anti-WPVG. Userboxes in the Template namespace are held to a high standard of being useful to collaboration towards building the encyclopedia, and this clearly does not qualify. Anomie⚔ 00:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

And besides, you did get what you wanted - many people provided their opinions. - A Link to the Past (talk) 00:58, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Coordinators/Toolbox/Partner peer review notice TomStar81 (Talk) 00:06, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Atlus games, anyone?

Having everyone saying what their favorite games were gave me the idea to ask if anyone here likes Atlus games. The reason I ask is that I've work with a few in my day and was wondering if anyone wanted to collab with me on any of them (non are FA and I cannot think of any GA's at the moment). I have finals and acts and sats for the next few weeks, but I thought I'd throw this out there. Feel free not to respond. Evaunit♥666♥ 00:21, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

My suggestion would be to work on Persona 3, as it's recent, and it's won awards from last year, so finding info on it will probably be easy. I've got it watched so if you need, let me know. --MASEM 03:28, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I suggest Trauma Center: Under the Knife. - A Link to the Past (talk) 03:30, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I love Persona 3. I'll look into it. Evaunit♥666♥ 00:47, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

But Personal 3 is the easy way out! It's super popular as it is! I throw Etrian Odyssey out there for kicks. =P --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 04:09, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

MGS4 broken street date and spoilers

As some of you might know, some people has received their copies of Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots before the street date, as well as the corresponding . Needless to say, this has led to certain users (both registered and unregistered) have been posting spoilers since the release of the game. Of course, these spoilers are unverifiable and technically unethical, as Konami did not intend to release the game nor the guide earlier. The following articles has been subjected to being edited with illegal spoilers:

• Big Boss (Metal Gear)
• List of Metal Gear Solid characters
• List of Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater characters
• List of recurring Metal Gear characters
• Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots

Possibly a few others not listed too. Should we revert/delete all spoilers prior to the June 12 date (which is only two days) or is it fair game to allow spoilers? Jonny2x4 (talk) 01:37, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't see anything illegal about it. WP:SPOILER is pretty clear that Wikipedia articles are not sensitive to this sort of content. Ham Pastrami (talk) 05:27, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

In this case, I'm not sure, since technically the game hasn't been released yet, and I'm sure Konami wouldn't want info from one of their most popular game series to show up on Wikipedia before the actual sale date.--十八 05:48, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Well it really isn't Konami's say in all honesty, and the information is readily available through other means anyway at this point. I find no problem with posting the information up if it's relevant to the articles in question. We're not forcing anyone to go read it, and a postponement until the game is sold isn't going to change a heck of a lot is it?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 05:53, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Didnt the same thing, and correct me if im wrong, happen the last Harry Potter book when that scanned copy got leaked onto the net? If so i dont see how posting information before the release date is going to harm anything. Salavat (talk) 06:30, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

You're missing the point, Kung-Fu Man. Just a moment ago, I went to all of the local game store to seek a copy of the game and the guide. They all claim they have in storage, but they all refused to sell me the game. So how can I verify all the spoilers I've seen are correct until then? Simple, I can't. So I'll revert all the spoilers I'll see until June 12. Its only a couple of days away anyway. Jonny2x4 (talk) 22:31, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

If you are worried it is unverifiable, then you should be removing all plot info not sourced, not just "spoilers". Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 22:58, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

The difference is that all the MGS, MGS2 and MGS3 plot info can be verified by citing quotes from the games. Right now, I can't verify anything from MGS4 by playing the game itself, unless its from a leaked clip of the game on Youtube that's bound to be removed at any moment. Jonny2x4 (talk) 01:02, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

My appology

Hello, I am Gears of War. I originally asked for help with homework but was not exactly taken the same way I thought I would. In my experience, I have been attacked alot but have overlooked each incident and appologized. But this had done it. I went off the deep end and I appologize.

But let us be sure about one thing I appologize to the WPVG, I do not appologize to the user that I insulted. Because of this i may never become a Admin but hey that sucks but what can ya do? I cursed the user out so I apologize to the project for having brought it in the middle of the storm of my anger. If anyone was affended...like I was once told, Wikipedia is not censored. In other words...get over it.

I have argued with the user I cursed out and sadly I dont like his attitude any better. I also do not appologize the other users I mention to Keifer for calling you out. I am sorry and quite frankly, this experience has changed me and my attitide to Wikipedia. Thank you and sorry for the inconvenious of interupting the cpnversations that normally go down here.

I will rejoin the project and stay active but to sum up would also like to appologize.Gears Of War 02:12, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Just shrug it off and move on man. More you discuss these things, the more they end up like quicksand. Though I must say I too found the discussion somewhat useful as far as knowing where the tastes of some people lie, which can make a collaboration easier. Just my two cents.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 02:18, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Hey man, no offense taken. Welcome back. For the most part, when I see editors blow up at one another I'm more embarrassed that it had to go that far. Remember that this is supposed to be fun, and remember that we can always walk away, take a deep breath, and count to ten. I'd be lying if I said I haven't been pissed off before. But don't let others get the best of you. The best thing can do most of the time is ignore it and move on. Keep up the good editing... Randomran (talk) 04:58, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I wanted to name my two favorite games, but then I started going into convulsions. :) Not an easy question to answer. Do I measure it by hours played? By number of times replayed? By emotional impact? By what I consider innovative and memorable game design? *head explodes* Randomran (talk) 06:56, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Up to you. He asked for two games so I gave him the two that immediately came to mind. Personally, I find it very difficult to justify choosing newer games for these kinds of polls in favor of older games, so I guess that's just me (otherwise I would be pointing to Grand Theft Auto IV, Advance Wars, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, etc.). Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 08:36, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, don't worry about it. We need a little levity once in a while. Oh, and Star Wars: TIE Fighter and Final Fantasy VII all the way =) Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 06:51, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Boy, I'll say we need some levity. Would someone mind keeping an eye on User:Gears of War to make sure he doesn't start spamming the project with "Here's everything that's wrong with you" pages? According to comments he's left on my user talk page, he's going to just categorically "fight like a soldier" against anyone he, in his sole judgment, thinks has treated him poorly. I'd rather just block him and be done with it to prevent further disruption, but since I'm the one he attacked right off the bat, my blocking him would be seen as simple retaliation. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 15:27, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Direct to GoW: I for one do not accept your apology as given. With respect to your Homework request and other suggestions you made to the WikiProject, I don't think you have anything to apologize for, and I tried to make that clear to you - they were all good-faith requests and, while not necessarily all appropriate for the project, there was nothing wrong in you making them. I don't believe anyone attacked you over them. But with regard to the severe disruption that your behavior caused after your homework thread was closed: I don't believe you've properly owned up to that. You flat-out attacked me over trying to uphold Wikipedia policy, and you further threatened to continue disrupting Wikipedia to prove a point in the conversations on our respective talk pages. I have been nothing but polite and friendly to you, up until the point where you made it clear you were only interested in throwing a temper tantrum and weren't willing to listen to reason. You created an "Anti-VGProj" template and posted it here, you made a big deal about "retiring" from Wikipedia (or at least the project), and you have certainly gone well over the line with respect to WP's civility policies and acceptable-use guidelines.

I don't think you realize just how disruptive all of that was, and until you really own up to it and start working to correct your behavior, I will not consider you as having apologized for it. I, for one, would appreciate a personal apology for your completely unwarranted attack. I doubt I'll get one, and personally I don't care if I ever receive one, but it would go a long way toward redeeming yourself in my eyes. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 15:38, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Updated: GoW has since apologized to me personally and has agreed to tone things down. I now believe he's truly sorry for the disruption, and I now accept his apology both personally and with respect to the project. Sorry for my own disruption as well - I didn't mean for this to get out of hand. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 20:13, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Glad you two could diffuse the tension. Randomran (talk) 20:22, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Defuse even? Sorry Randomran, I'm just sharpening up my pedantry for my return to FAC. Happy editing. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 20:40, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Either or. :) Randomran (talk) 21:36, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

spyro the dragon

Okay,the article on characters of spyro the dragon really needs cleaning up. I mean REALLY NEEDS TO BE CLEANED UP. It's like a two year old wrote all the characters, then gave it to an illiterate child to proof read. Yes, it's that bad. Really need help —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.109.132.181 (talk) 15:08, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Template:Vgrelease - International

I've only just realised the ^INT template on the Template:Vgrelease is in fact International version, rather than International version (I thought it was an incorrect link in the template, rather than a separate release). As far as I know, it's most often used as International - see Starcraft, maybe it's just me though. Thoughts on maybe expanding the template to INTV for international version and INTR for international release? Fin©™ 16:15, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

It's used for international versions in FF articles, like Final Fantasy X. I thought the accepted practice for worldwide release was to simply not indicate any abbreviation (for instance see the Publisher field in Final Fantasy XII, compared to the one in FFX). It seems like none of these stuff is regulated by VG guidelines though. This should probably be explicited. Kariteh (talk) 16:29, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps just explicitly stating it would be enough so? Then again, FFX is the only game with an international version I'm aware of. Fin©™ 16:56, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Final Fantasy VII, Final Fantasy X-2, Final Fantasy XII, Kingdom Hearts, Kingdom Hearts II, etc. I know of these Square Enix titles, but I'm not sure if it's that common outside of Square Enix. I agree it's confusing and it needs more input. Kariteh (talk) 17:05, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

List of characters in The King of Fighters series

I decided to start cleaning up this article...and then I noticed something. It's really long it needs to be split, please think about that.Gears Of War 20:48, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Link List of characters in The King of Fighters series --Oscarthecat (talk) 21:18, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Problem is other than alphabetically it really can't. The list is the result of someone combining all the KoF character articles in there at once, and given that's a large cast you can imagine the results. At least two people are working on the list as it stands though.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 02:51, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Delete the in-game bios, and replace the individual portraits with a group shot. Merge individual fighters into factions. Jappalang (talk) 03:03, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Image paranoia

Someone decided to complain about every image in a VG article by throwing around reference to WP:NFCC, and then someone else decided to be paranoid and remove images from several other articles. I think this needs a wider discussion: Is identification of the topic of the article/section a "good enough" reason to have a boxart image, or should we go ahead and remove boxart images from all VG articles? Anomie⚔ 23:22, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

That's not really what's happening. The issue raised was that the article contained box covers for every edition of the game, and it's true that this crosses the line of NF use guidelines. A single box cover, provided in the infobox, is sufficient to identify the subject for the entire article unless a box cover itself is somehow noteworthy in the following discussion. Nobody that I can see is proposing to remove all box art from all articles. Ham Pastrami (talk) 00:01, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

If the paranoid user mentioned is removing all boxart images though I would suggest mentioning to them that was not what was being suggested and to revert any changes of that nature. --76.71.213.183 (talk) 00:23, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Aventurine SA‎

I saw the request for this article and I'm currently writing it. But when I looked on IGN and Gamespy for info on them I saw that they are originated in Athens Greece. Now does that sound crazy to just me? Please help me and tell me if thats true or if there something wrong and please help me find some helpful refs to help me write the article.Gears Of War 23:35, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Athens is quite big a city, so I'm not surprised some game development companies originate from it. User:Krator (t c) 01:15, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

The article is finished feal free to edit.Gears Of War 21:31, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

"(insert game) character articles needed cleaning", "these are terrible!", etc etc etc

Alright to cut right to the chase, I think suffice to say with the large number of people pouring in complaints about articles, and the fact many older ones that were fine are now getting the axe, it's just useful to say across the board "these articles suck". Like I said above in the Sonic character discussion, the whole thing needs a reboot.

Problem is there isn't too much in terms of a full on effort to actively improve these: just reading this page you can see more effort shoving things into lists than fleshing out articles. I still feel that's just so counterproductive and defeats the point. Anyway not going to argue that, but did want to suggest the following:

• More of a collaborative effort in pooling design information on characters, and legitimate sites and other sources that can be used to look up said material in.
• A set standard on what should be followed for a character article. We don't really have a format we can just point people to, and another article doesn't always suffice. We really need something that gives a solid skeleton idea, and actual articles don't always work for that (what flies for a character in a FPS isn't going to necessarily in a fighting game).
• If some design information and third party mention exists to a significant point, maybe shying away from the lists would be a better move for those. The lists end up better reserved in cases where the subject can't support it's own article without consisting solely of in-universe, first party content. If IGN though is taking their time to discuss the character though or CNN mentions it repeatedly in the context of it's home material as a recognizable example, then it should be more of a given that it has notability.
• Collaborations: a lot of the mini-project groups have died or are barely existing. Right now like I said, we're collaborating better on what to get rid of than what to improve :\ There has to be a fix for that.

Hopefully this all didn't make me sound like a jackass, but anyway here's the subject waiting for discussion in the end.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 03:33, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, we do have one good character article: Link (The Legend of Zelda) is a featured article, and it's passed two FA reviews. As I mentioned on Talk:Sonic the Hedgehog (character), I'm using it as a model for that article's improvement; certainly it could be a good model for other VG character articles to follow. NeoChaosX (talk, walk) 03:49, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

There's the Master Chief and Cortana who are also FAs. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 13:11, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

And the fourteen GA-class articles on individual video game characters. -- Sabre (talk) 13:28, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm honestly wary about using the GA-class articles as examples. When I started writing Poison (Final Fight), had two editors point me to the Sonic the Hedgehog article as a template to follow (given it was a GA at the time). :\--Kung Fu Man (talk) 17:40, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Well then, there are the FA-class articles to use as templates. And layout is almost never the issue in GA, it's more the content; that said the GA articles might be missing important components, who knows. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 17:50, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

The FAs and Aerith Gainsborough (A-class) are all good models to follow in my opinion. Kariteh (talk) 17:54, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

The guidelines to writing a good article about a video game character is the same as writing an article on any fictional character (see WP:FICT). The problem with most of these articles is that they read like really badly-written biographies from a fansite than an encyclopedic treatment of the character, emphasizing fictional chronology and original research from users over concrete over a real-world treatment of the character. For the record, why is there still an article on Poison, a minor small fry enemy character whose only distinction is being a cross-dresser?Jonny2x4 (talk) 20:25, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Because we have dozens of bad fighting game character articles. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 20:29, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Ah irony Jonny...given it was you that was the one to point me to that blasted Sonic article as a guideline to follow in the first place, so it's funny to see you preach about how articles should be now. And the article manages to get around notability: people in the industry apparently like discussing a guy that look like a girl in a fighting game. Go figure. There's another discussion for that though if you really want to drag it on.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 20:37, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Forgot to leave my point here though: WP:FICT if you notice is still only a proposed guideline being discussed in part on that page's talk page. It's not a set in stone policy yet.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 20:39, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

That Sonic article really wasn't as bad as it is right now, when I directed at it for you back then (I don't even remember though if I did to begin with). The problem with most of these Street Fighter character articles is that they focus too much on a canon that has a very loose continuity to begin with according to the creators (the producers of the Street Fighter games did say that each sub-series is a self-contained work). Do we really need a "Fictional character biography" for each article? The Poison is mainly more fancruft than anything else.Jonny2x4 (talk) 22:18, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Fictional character bios are (in my opinion) the realm of trashy comic book character articles. I think it's best to just summarize the relevant details in the characters' appearances, it helps keep it out of universe (example, "In Random Novel, Random Character's backstory is fully explained &c." rather than "Random Character was born Julio Random Character in 1920..." Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 22:24, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Belling the cat

Want something to do? Clean up, merge, redirect, or delete some of these articles.

• Category:Fatal Fury characters
• Category:The King of Fighters characters
• Category:Art of Fighting characters
• Category:Bloody Roar characters
• Category:Crash Bandicoot characters
• Category:Monkey Island characters
• Category:Resident Evil characters

I'd add more, but this is depressing. Feel free to add any other crufty cats. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 22:30, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

• I've added a Resident Evil category, which sadly I'm partially responsible for. Jonny2x4 (talk) 23:46, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I feel inclined to tackle the Monkey Island category after I'm done helping out with the Myst stuff. Most of the LucasArts adventure games need looking at, this seems like a good entry point for me to start with. A Characters of Monkey Island article ought to do the trick nicely, I can't see the need for all those spinouts and minor characters. -- Sabre (talk) 10:14, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

• Category:Galaxy Angel characters is another one I found (overlaps with anime/manga etc though). Bridies (talk) 10:43, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

• As a note, categories in themselves are not bad. If you do merge and redirect characters articles, leave the redirects in the category along with any existing articles; even if the category is all redirects, leave it as is and don't delete the category. Also, you should include {{CharR to list entry}} on the redirected page and help sort these more. And of course, redirections should always been done for these characters: they are cheap and help with searching purposes. --MASEM 14:31, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Galaxy Angel Eternal Lovers

Anyone know anything aboutGalaxy Angel Eternal Lovers? There's a rather strange edit war going on. Most of the article is currently about an unlockable shoot em up mode, which allegedly doesn't even exist (one of the editors has accused the other of sockpuppetry also). Personally I know nothing about the game (though I'm pretty confident the statement 'IGN voted Galaxy Angel Eternal Lovers as the greatest 3D space shooter of all time' is bs...) so I thought I'd point it up here. Incidently, there's a load of character articles related to this game/series/universe as well... Bridies (talk) 04:45, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

The article's since been put under page protection and two accounts involved in the conflict have been blocked indefinitely for continued editing abuse. The article should stabilise and settle down now. It does need some work on developing sourced content, but it seems that most of the excessive detail seems to have been removed.Gazimoff ^Write_Read 13:37, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Music of Super Smash Bros. Brawl article?

User:A Link to the Past/List of songs in Super Smash Bros. Brawl - I believe that SSBB has received a lot of reception and has a ton of development information to speak of, and a ton of songs with 38 different composers involved. Comments? - A Link to the Past (talk) 18:33, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I was looking for some sort of SSB music article or even section today, and sadly I obviously found nothing. I say go for it! --.:Alex:. 18:41, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Just because it's well received, and has a large number of composers does not mean the music should have it's own page. As well as having questionable notability (is the fact it contains "Jungle Level Ver.2" actually notable?), it could be argued as being under what wikipedia isn't (a list of indiscriminate information/game guide). Fin©™ 19:44, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

1. Being well-received does a LOT to say it should have its own page. And having a development history, a development history more in depth than most games in the history of the industry. There were sites covering every single update on the Dojo, for Heaven's sake. The music is one of the most highly-reported aspect of SSBB.
2. I don't see why SSBB's music list would be less notable than all of the Final Fantasy soundtracks.
3. Jungle Level Ver.2 is a different song, with different composition, with a different style. If you heard them, you would only notice a vague resemblance between the two.
4. If the article was expanded to be all three games, then it would be a ton more notable - SSBM has its own soundtrack, is orchestrated, and has had its own live orchestra. The listing may be much, but I could easily establish that the list is not only notable, but is a list that people would consider very helpful, and do not teach the reader how to play the game, so it doesn't even qualify as guide content (anymore so than Rock Band's or GHIII's lists). - A Link to the Past (talk) 22:28, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

1. Em, no, just because a game is good doesn't mean it deserves more article space. Sure if people like it they'll add to it more, but that doesn't mean it's deserving of it.
2. I don't think the Final Fantasy soundtracks are notable either.
3. I picked Jungle Level Ver.2 as a random track in all the music as the title does not inspire much. It's of no interest to the average reader, where, say, the inclusion of a soundtrack with popular artists within a game article may be (though I'm not endorsing that either).
4. There are lots of things in game guides, not just stuff that teach the player how to play the game. For example, the credits of games are not listed on article pages, simply as the majority of the time it's not useful or notable. A list of music from the Smash Brothers series (indeed, I remember how good the music was in Melee) may just appear as a list of random names, with no significance (such as Jungle Level Ver.2) to the average reader. Also, it's unfair to compare Rock Band's or any Guitar Hero's list of songs, as in their case, it's an integral part of the game, just as the characters (but not, I would argue, the music) of Smash Brothers.

But anyway, we need more input. Fin©™ 01:01, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the above comment: Rock Band and Guitar Hero games revolve around music, while Brawl doesn't. Brawl has an official soundtrack, doesn't it? That should be an article (as it's a verifiable music CD), but nothing else needs to be made. The songs (on the soundtrack only) should be listed there, and it should remain watched in my view. Otherwise fans will come along and add every little bit of trivia they can to each track. Things such as "this song was used in all these games, but was removed from this one" and so on, I don't see as useful to a soundtrack article. RobJ1981 (talk) 01:09, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

1. Em, no, it certainly does. If you look at any discussion on, say, a discussion on giving a character an article, a notable amount of reception for the character is necessary. SSBB fulfills that, and its soundtrack receives more reception than most games, with the obvious exception of rhythm games.
2. It's certainly a legitimate song - Hell, looking at a lot of soundtrack articles, this is way more notable, because there's actually history to these songs - all but most of the original, SSBB music are actual songs (albeit gaming songs), so there's history that other soundtracks lack. The history of the songs is what people want the list for.
3. But like I've said, SSBB is no less notable than most soundtrack articles that exist, including all of the GA FF music articles. And just because you find them non-notable, it still sets precedence, because those articles reached GA.
4. And right, Rob, this is one of those articles that should be monitored at all times. - A Link to the Past (talk) 01:22, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Smashing...Live! was an article that was merged into SSBM about 3-4 months ago as a non-notable. I think you'll be hard pressed to find reliable secondary sources on the subject of the music in the series. Nintendo Power is obviously out of the equation in the case of Smashing...Live! itself. Just noting. --Izno (talk) 02:47, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

My opinions (Edit conflict):

1. I think the reception for the game itself is notable with respect to the game, and if the game's extensive soundtrack contributed to that, it warrants mention in the game article. ("SSBB has been well-received due in part to its extensive soundtrack, which includes close to 200 songs by 38 different composers spanning multiple generations of Nintendo and third-party games.") I don't think it would need to go into any more detail than that, since the vast majority of songs are either remixes or re-releases of songs from earlier games, or variations on the SSBB and SSBM theme songs. In short, the songs themselves aren't necessarily notable.
2. You could feasibly create a section in the SSBB article that describes the game's music from a general standpoint. Since most of the video-game music does have a history, it's worth elaborating on how some songs have had multiple remixes, based on various styles, while other songs have been included verbatim from their original games, and still others are completely original. BUT: I don't think you need to call out specific songs, except in maybe just one or two examples, because then you risk having to elaborate on all of them. By talking about the whole set of songs in an abstract sense, you address the notability of the game's soundtrack without stepping into the more questionable notability of the songs themselves. And if you keep it abstract, it doesn't need to be very long and wouldn't warrant its own article.
3. My personal opinion is that if the FF games have their own, officially released soundtracks, and so does SSBB, then SSBB should have a corresponding soundtrack article that talks about the soundtrack itself and how it was released as a complement to the game. That article should follow the format of the previous FF articles. Any FF soundtrack articles that don't correspond to officially-released products should be carefully examined to verify that they really belong on WP - just because they were once promoted to GA or FA status doesn't necessarily mean they comply with the policies or guidelines.
4. Totally agree that a soundtrack article should be monitored to keep out the cruft. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 02:52, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I never proposed an article on Smashing... Live! - however, an article on the music of the series, which is very notable. - A Link to the Past (talk) 03:16, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the point was Smashing...Live! was consider to be non-notable, even though it was related to Smash Bros. Also, it'll be difficult to find reliable secondary sources on the subject of Smash Bros music. Just because something is well-received and/or has a large amount of critical reception does not mean it should have its own article - there's no companion cube article, for example. Essentially my point is the same as Kiefer's above. Fin©™ 11:36, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Forgive me here, but I do kinda have to voice my objection to that reasoning on the grounds of Wikipedia:Other stuff exists: just because one article doesn't exist doesn't mean another shouldn't. Also to add, looking at the history for companion cube shows it was never an article, but always an outright redirect.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 14:06, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree, I was just making the point that a game being well-received etc is not a good enough reason to create an article about a sub-topic of it, the sub-topic must also be notable etcetc. Companion cube's never had its own article?!?! Heresy!! =( Fin©™ 14:39, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Erm, no? SSBB's music, like I've already stated, is well-sourced. Many web sites were covering the music and the updates, and the sources are stronger than many game articles'. - A Link to the Past (talk) 15:45, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

(reindenting)

Maybe the sources are ok, but that does not mean the subject is notable enough for inclusion! Also, you've no sources or references on your example page. I think the current bit in the Brawl article is fine: "The game's musical score was composed through the collaboration between 38 renowned video game composers.", no need to expand it to a whole page. Fin©™ 16:19, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I also don't have categories, does that mean the finished article will lack categories? - A Link to the Past (talk) 16:22, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

... I was merely commenting that you asserted, and I quote, SSBB's music...is well-sourced. For you to say this, but not include sources in your example, seemed strange to me. I just thought I'd make you aware of it (in case you thought you had sourced it). Also, I'd a quick google for Smash Bros music, the only reputable, verifiable link in the first three pages (excluding the Dojo) was a slashdot article. Anyway, I think I've contributed enough to this discussion. Fin©™ 16:33, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Again, your point is invalid - you're essentially asserting that because the article is not sourced now, that is proof that it cannot be sourced. There is also no development info, reception info, or a lead. And doing a two minute Google search doesn't matter for anything. - A Link to the Past (talk) 16:51, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

And you're talking about sources? [1], a three page interview with Sakurai about the music. [2], official information about the music. That's me spending three minutes Goggling for sources. - A Link to the Past (talk) 17:03, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Disambig-type category?

There needs to be one, as there is a priority type for disambig. - A Link to the Past (talk) 04:31, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Reliable sources for DLC

This started as a disagreement at List of songs in Rock Band where I am now trying to get some input at the articles talk page. The basic question is, what counts as a reliable source for inclusion in DLC lists? THe basic problem here is a section of this article contains an unreliable leaked list. I think there should be some general level of standards for what DLC information is contained in its respective article and at what point it gets added to the article (when it is leaked? When it is officially announced? When it is officially released?) Any input on this would be greatly appreciated, and if discussion could be directed [[3]], that would be great. Thanks! Chrislk02 ^{Chris Kreider} 17:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

This is a very good question, and something that I've always wondered myself. Most commonly I see the issue in music game articles (but that's only because those are the ones I frequent more than others). In the case of a music game DLC article, here are the common causes for people including a song that has not been confirmed by the game creators.

• Artist/Group announces inclusion. This is especially popular right now with Guitar Hero: World Tour, as a number of artists have come forward and said they will have songs included in "future titles". There was some contention in mid-May when Disturbed's website annouced that two songs would be offered as DLC, but the two tracks it listed differed from the Best Buy annoucement. My opinion is that the artist or group would be considered the ultimate authority on their music, and thus should be considered reliable.
• Magazine reports inclusion. Most noteably in List of songs in Rock Band, a debate started regarding the validitiy of OXM's list of songs to be released in March. The list was included when first found in Febuary. Not all content from the list was released. It wasn't until June when the content was finally removed. This is one that would apply to more than just music games, as magazines continually post updates and rumors regarding upcoming content. Here too, I feel that a magazine should be considered reliable until proven otherwise. A gaming magazine such as OXM, PSM, NP, or EGM is not going to make up information and run with it. A story that's made it to publishing, they felt they had a reliable source for it. I feel it's acting in bad faith to assume that a magazine article is unreliable (provided it's sources are good).
• Ads. This is probably the final "motivator" for this discussion. A few days ago an MTV2 commericial aired for a new song pack for Rock Band, it included screencaps which contained song titles not currently available. Of these, three included the words: "NOT READY FOR TEST" or something of that nature. There has been no official statement either way as there was when the original list of DLC was leaked in February. Here is where I don't understand the reluctance. An advertisement is constructed in partnership with the creators. Any footage included is pulled directly from resources provided to the team that assmebles the ad. In the gaming world, promotional videos are constantly referred to as reliable sources for the inclusion of new characters, levels, and content in general. Case in point: Guitar Hero: World Tour, which cites the use of songs in advertisements. While it happens on occasion that content not meant to be revealed slips out, this is different from a leak as it's not being dug out or "stolen" by a sly observer, but rather distributed nationally by the creator's themselves. Whatever info included (intentional or not) should be considered fair game.
• "Leaks". This is probably most noteable in the Rock Band list again. A DLC file was found to contain a number of song titles that were both in and not-in the game. Since the discovery, a number of songs have been released that were on the list. Here I can see the argument for disclusion (is that even a word). People can claim "leaks" and sources are usually not very reliable. But here I feel that a "leak" should be treated in a manner befitting it's nature. If I claim to have learned of a new XBLA game being released because I have a friend who works at MSFT, that's hardly anything reliable. But if I can point to a document that was discovered (and is confirmed to exist by the source itself) than my claim does become reliable in that instance. Though in the future I shouldn't get a pass because I was right that one time previously.

This is all just my personal opinion on the overall issue of what is reliable and what isn't. Because in the past I have noticed some inconsistencies which cause confusion amoung regular editors as well as casual passersby. -- TRTX ^{T / C} 19:08, 12 June 2008 (UTC)