Talk:Jane Elliott and La Courneuve: Difference between pages
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{{French commune| |
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{{WPBiography |
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nomcommune=La Courneuve<br>[[Image:Mairie la Courneuve.JPG|300px]]<br><small>Town hall of La Courneuve</small>| |
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|living=yes |
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map=La_Courneuve_map.svg| |
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|priority=Low |
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mapcaption=[[Paris]] and inner ring départements| |
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|listas=Elliott, Jane |
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lat_long={{coord|48|55|56|N|2|23|48|E|region:FR_type:city}}| |
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|class=Start |
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région=[[Île-de-France (région)|Île-de-France]] | |
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}} |
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département=[[Seine-Saint-Denis]]| |
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arrondissement=Saint-Denis| |
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canton=[[Canton of La Courneuve|La Courneuve]]| |
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insee=93027| |
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cp=93 120|maire=Gilles Poux of the [[French Communist Party]]| |
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mandat= | |
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intercomm=[[communauté d'agglomération Plaine Commune|Communauté<br>d'agglomération<br>Plaine Commune]]| |
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alt moy=40m |alt mini=29m |alt maxi=60 | |
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km²=7.52|sans=<br>37,400<br>35,310|date-sans=July 1, 2005 estimate)<br>(March 8, 1999 census| |
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dens=4,973|date-dens=2005}} |
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'''La Courneuve''' is a [[commune in France|commune]] in the northeastern suburbs of [[Paris]], [[France]]. It is located 8.3 km. (5.2 miles) from the [[Kilometre Zero|center of Paris]]. It is known for its large zones of high-rise public housing buildings, inhabited mostly by immigrants and their descendants. |
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== |
== History == |
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{{Cleanup-section|date=April 2008}} |
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The history of La Courneuve begins as the rest of the region with the invasion of European tribes and the eventual conquering of the area by the Romans. During the Middle Ages, the area was like many small villages. With its proximity to Paris, the country area became a fashionable country destination, with a number of gentry residing there and 2 notable châteaus, Sainte-Foi and Poitronville. Towards the end of Napoleon's reign, the entire area experienced large population growth,this along with improved methods of farming eventually had area become the major legume producer for the Paris region. |
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1863 was the year of the first major industrial enterprise, and the city would soon become a strange mix of mass producing factories side by side with farmlands, industrial estates juxtaposed against bean plantations and that would continue until after World War II. During the 1960s, as Paris could no longer meet the demands of a further exploding population (largely the result of immigration from former colonies), La Courneuve, like the most other suburbs of Paris, was designated as one of the "zones à urbaniser en priorité" (areas to be urbanized quickly) and was built up at a very rapid pace, with the construction of large tower blocks and other [[HLM]] developments. Between 1962 and 1968 the population nearly doubled. |
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This is copied word for word from [[http://www.horizonmag.com/4/jane-elliott.asp]]. Its the first site on Google, after searching for 'Jane Elliot.' Unless the materials not copywrited, it should be rewritten. [[User:Kaiser matias|Kaiser matias]] 00:07 4 March 2005 (UTC) |
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Today the area is one of the most deprived in the country, and is attempting to revitalize itself. The city is plagued by crime and was the scene of the accidental shooting of a young boy in 2005, prompting national outcry, and upon visiting in June 2005, [[Nicolas Sarkozy]], then [[Minister of the Interior (France)|Minister of the Interior]], vowed to clean out La Courneuve "with a [[Kärcher]] (high water pressure cleaner)". La Courneuve was also an area heavily affected by the riots of November 2005. The city has earned itself a reputation as a crime riden, desolate ghetto, and the local authority is in the course of implementing what it says will be far reaching projects and reforms for the city's economy and civil society. One of the largest housing projects is called " Les 4000" (meaning " the 4000"). It has one of the highest crime rate in the developed countries.{{Fact|date=June 2007}} |
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I think it is. Says so at the bottom: 'The Enterprise Foundation © Copyright 2000. All Rights reserved.' Which fool copypasted a copyrighted article and submitted it to Wikipedia? --[[User:195.92.67.75|195.92.67.75]] 00:55, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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==Demographics== |
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It IS copypasted from that website, but with this bit of blatant opinion added in: "Elliott blames her ostracism on the alleged racists of Riceville but fails to acknowledge the role her own personality played. She is well-known to be highly opinionated on most controversial subjects, a trait that didn't endear her to the conservative population of Riceville. Many students also claim that Elliott was guilty of favoritism with certain students." |
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===Immigration=== |
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{{France immigration |
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What kind of job is this? I think this is below the standards of Wikipedia. |
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|collectivity_name=La Courneuve |
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|census_year=1999 |
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[[User:CGally81|CGally81]] 01:32, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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|metropolitan_France=62.6 |
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|outside_metropolitan_France=37.4 |
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== Blatant opinion == |
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|overseas_France=3.1 |
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|foreign_French=3.5 |
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I am the one who inserted the "blatant opinion" paragraph. My intention is to provide a counter for the pro-Elliott aspect of the article. What is the acceptable method to do this? |
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|EU-15=4.1 |
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|non-EU-15=26.7 |
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--- |
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}} |
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The way to do it is to express it as an opinion belonging to someone else, rather than an outright fact. |
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For example, instead of saying "What Jane fails to realize is that her own personality played a role in....", you should say something like "Jane's personality however, may have played a role (or "is believed to have played a role") in...." or even "Some believe that Jane's personality also played a role in...." |
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Attributing that belief to a group of people may help as well. If a particular group of people stated that they felt Jane's personality resulted in her persecution, then you can credit that group with saying so. |
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Understand what I mean? |
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Wikipedia is about expressing facts (if proven) as facts, opinion as opinion, and things believed to be facts by some but not others, as just that - i.e. state that some believe this, some believe that, etc. |
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[[User:CGally81|CGally81]] 02:48, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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== Wrote new content, removed copyrighted material == |
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I actually know a bit about the subject, so I did the work and wrote the beginnings of a real article. Also removed copyrighted material, of course....it's not supposed to be here. |
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I didn't see the terribly opinionated paragraph mentioned above, but now the article doesn't even go into the community reaction, so there's nothing for the opinionated paragraph to butt heads with, so to speak. Removed, if it was in there (but I think it had already been nixed.) |
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(We would need to have some more solid sources for this than just the Brigitta Kral piece, in order to prevent just such back-and-forth controversy: the piece omits half the experimental method, which makes it seem like it's only casually researched.) |
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[[User:Alan Canon|Alan Canon]] 03:03, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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== New section == |
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I see that someone added a new paragraph about the negative reaction of the town. The "facts" in this paragraph are only claims by Elliott herself. What is an acceptable way to counter-balance this paragraph? |
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- |
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I think you handled it very appropriately. |
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--[[User:CGally81|CGally81]] 02:37, 14 July 2005 (UTC) |
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== Dead links == |
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The link for the attributed quoted text is now dead. Should the quote be removed? Also, the Smithsonian link goes to their front page. [[User:Rynosoft|Mick]] 12:49, 1 March 2006 (UTC) |
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== Exercise or experiment? == |
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This should be clarified. |
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[[User:Irrevenant|Irrevenant]] 10:11, 11 March 2006 (UTC) |
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== Birth? == |
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When was she born? |
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== My Oh My... ==their is no reason of being bitter after all that was just an experiment she did a wonderful job |
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... |
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While I don't deny that whites are also on the recieving end of racism, I think the poster who saw Indecently Exposed didn't quite get the point. |
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Elliott was '''purposefully''' taking on the persona of a "racist fuckwit" as you chose to title it to highlight how certain behaviours from one person or group can bring out negative behaviours in another group, and reinforce false perceptions of laziness, stupidity, etc. (This is also done in the Ble Eye/Brown Eye experiment.) [[User:220.244.212.62|220.244.212.62]] 10:25, 31 January 2007 (UTC) |
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No, in Indecently Exposed, Elliott was purposefully taking on the persona of an '''eye-colorist''', dividing the participants by eye colour and brow-beating some of them, but she '''also''' interjected her interpretation of the exercise, brow-beating the whites indiscriminately (ironically...) for their attitude towards others. It is for this interpretation, not for her persona, that I say she was the most racist fuckwit in the room. |
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xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx |
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I think that you could come up with a more appropriate term than "racist fuckwit" but will use the term here since you both agree on what it means. I think there should be more information concerning her earlier experiments with blue eyed and brown eyed school children (it was a two day exercise) than with her training of adults. Strange how kids acted differently and performed better academically on the day that they were "superior" - and this should be focused on more in the wikipedia entry than the later adult stuff. |
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I also think that one should settle this by going into her reasons for acting like a "racist fuckwit" (which was Jane Elliott's intention) and how successful she was in using this persona to get her point across and whether she was equally successful as a school teacher as she was later in her work with adults. Look at it this way, Stephen Colbert acts like a right wing "fuckwit" to show the stupidity of the right wing point of view - but no one considers those strange things he says his own views. The problem I see here is not so much Jane Elliott's intention but whether she was successful in distinguishing between the intentionally racist persona and her true views. |
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There is one point where she baits a person into saying something racist which sounds more like her putting words in the person's mouth than the person's true views (distorting another's view or potentially doing so is a point that can be made legitimately). It is both racist to see all members of the group the same and to deny a person their group identity in Jane Elliott's opinion. However, the person does get roped slightly unfairly into inferring the latter by trying not to infer the former. Jane Elliott made it sound as if the person had said that soccor players shouldn't wear hijabs, and RCMP officers should not wear braids or turbans - which one could question. I think when the person said that they were the same as us, the person didn't mean what she made it sound like he said. You can look up Baltej Singh Dhillon either on wikipedia or the cbc to get some background on the issue for the discussion. |
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== Oprah == |
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I didn't see any verification of the story that this experiment was tried on Oprah via the first page of Google results for "Oprah eye color". Does someone have a reference for this? |
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Here is a link from Oprah.com that discusses that particular episode in detail: http://www.oprah.com/tows/vintage/past/vintage_past_20010720_b.jhtml [[User:Duboisist|Duboisist]] ([[User talk:Duboisist|talk]]) 13:55, 18 December 2007 (UTC) |
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== Controversy section == |
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This section should be removed because it doesn't represent a controversy. There is no evidence offered that the exercise in question violates the ethical standards of any recognized organization that does human research studies. |
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Moreover, this section seem to represent the opinion of just two people who no evidence has been offered that either have any particular expertise in the ethics of human research. |
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Furthermore this makes makes the entire article self-contradictory because the exact same thing can be said about the Stanford experiment mentioned below.--[[User:Duboisist|Duboisist]] ([[User talk:Duboisist|talk]]) 14:16, 18 December 2007 (UTC) |
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: Moved here from a comment in the article source. <span style="white-space: nowrap;">[[User:Voyagerfan5761|Tuvok]][<sup>[[User talk:Voyagerfan5761|T]][[Special:Emailuser/Voyagerfan5761|@]][[User talk:Voyagerfan5761|lk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Wikipedia:Editor review/Voyagerfan5761|Improve]]</sub>]</span> 01:54, 4 April 2008 (UTC) |
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== racism is a "white attitudinal problem" == |
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She said it! What a racist! |
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We need to define the term and let the readers decide whether it is racist or not. |
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Ok, if you want to make the point that not only white people are racist you can point to David Ahenakew's Wikipedia entry. However, I think she was addressing Saskatchewan after the death of Neil Stonechild (who has his own inaccurate wikipedia entry - I'm white and figure that the cops were responsible for his death). Neil Stonechild died because he was taken on a Starlight Tour - a common practice at the time. |
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On the other hand, Jane Elliott's statement of a "white attitudinal problem" is not limited to a belief that white people can be racist (we can to varying degrees), but, more importantly, it incorporates the tendency we have to underestimate the impact of how being a victim of multiple acts of racism influences a person's self esteem and behaviour over time - or even one's trust in government agencies. |
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Expecting a person not to be impacted by a lifetime of exposure to racism, is like expecting a child rape victim to "just get over it" - in both cases, one has to heal and learn to trust. And we can all learn to be a bit more trust worthy. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/24.77.37.48|24.77.37.48]] ([[User talk:24.77.37.48|talk]]) 21:22, 15 February 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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==this is not an experiment, she emphasizes== |
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Yet it's repeatedly referred to as an experiment in this article. Personally, I don't care either way. Seems like she didn't intend it to be one, but many have observed the results as if it were (and I'd say there's plenty of value in doing so). |
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But this is an encyclopedia. And it's either an experiment, or it's not. Let's make a decision, and adjust the article accordingly, ok? Whatcha think? :-/ -- [[User:MyrddinEmrys|MyrddinEmrys]] ([[User talk:MyrddinEmrys|talk]]) 12:01, 24 January 2008 (UTC) |
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:My vote would be to change all cases of "experiment" to "exercise".[[User:Trilobitealive|Trilobitealive]] ([[User talk:Trilobitealive|talk]]) 20:30, 4 April 2008 (UTC) |
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==rewrite== |
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I rewrote the article, putting in a lot more detail. Not sure if the quote I used could be cited better. Only one of the sources I take quotes from has page numbers. What I have read about citations just asks that quotes have a citation immediately after. But I kind of did it two ways... for one or two quotes I cite a source twice so that I could include the page number for the quote (instead of the more general citation I use for information)... in other places, I put the page number in the text... Which is more appropriate? [[User:Thelmadatter|Thelmadatter]] ([[User talk:Thelmadatter|talk]]) 18:11, 2 June 2008 (UTC) |
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== |
==Transport== |
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La Courneuve is served by [[La Courneuve – 8 Mai 1945 (Paris Métro)|La Courneuve – 8 Mai 1945]] station on [[Paris Métro Line 7]] and by [[La Courneuve – Aubervilliers (Paris RER)|La Courneuve – Aubervilliers]] station on Paris [[RER B|RER line B]]. |
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I very rarely get involved with editing and discussion on Wikipedia, but I'm really taken aback by the bias against the subject of this article. It's one thing to present criticism of an issue, but this is complete (and intentional) overkill. This article is supposed to be a biography. Instead, it is a propaganda piece that insists that acknowledging white privilege is somehow tantamount to racism against white people. Ironically, this claim demonstrates that racism against non-white people is alive and well today. There is an excessive number of quotations from openly biased sources (including a conservative think tank). Other quotes and facts are misleadingly presented out of context. Let's confine the ridiculous claims and smear campaigns to the articles on presidential candidates, ok? If Jane Elliott is truly racist against white people, then there must be better testimony out there than the sources currently cited in this article. |
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[[User:Bluemonkee|Bluemonkee]] ([[User talk:Bluemonkee|talk]]) 07:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC) |
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==Sources== |
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== Wrong information == |
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*{{fr icon}} [http://www.ville-la-courneuve.fr/7_ville_bref/histoire_patrim/histoire_patrim.html/Official Un peu d'histoire. 07 Feb. 2006. La Ville de La Courneuve] |
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*[http://cjc-online.ca/viewarticle.php?id=719&layout=html/ Mayol, Pierre. "The Policy of the City and Cultural Action". Canadian Journal of Communication Vol. 27, No. 2 (2002)] |
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*{{fr icon}}[http://www.lemonde.fr/cgi-bin/ACHATS/acheter.cgi?offre=ARCHIVES&type_item=ART_ARCH_30J&objet_id=907720/ Van Renterghem, Marion. "La Courneuve, « Rebeus » et « Renois » disent la vie des « 4000 »." Le Monde, 1 July 2005] |
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== External links == |
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"The following Monday, Elliott reversed the exercise, making the blue-eyed children superior." |
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{{commons|Category:La Courneuve|La Courneuve}} |
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* {{fr icon}} [http://www.ville-la-courneuve.fr/ Official site] |
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{{Paris Metropolitan Area}} |
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This information is completely wrong, where did people get this from? Seems as though it has been completely pulled out of their necks. |
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[[Category:Communes of Seine-Saint-Denis]] |
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Watch the documentary on it here: |
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http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/divided/ |
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[[ca:La Courneuve]] |
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You will see that on TUESDAY, the teacher proposed that BLUE EYED PEOPLE were superior, and on WEDNESDAY, she proposed that BROWN EYED PEOPLE were superior. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/189.54.236.31|189.54.236.31]] ([[User talk:189.54.236.31|talk]]) 12:38, 13 October 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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Revision as of 16:37, 13 October 2008
La Courneuve | |
|---|---|
 | |
Location of  | |
| Country | France |
| Arrondissement | Saint-Denis |
| Canton | La Courneuve |
| Time zone | UTC+01:00 (CET) |
| • Summer (DST) | UTC+02:00 (CEST) |
| INSEE/Postal code | 93027 / |
La Courneuve is a commune in the northeastern suburbs of Paris, France. It is located 8.3 km. (5.2 miles) from the center of Paris. It is known for its large zones of high-rise public housing buildings, inhabited mostly by immigrants and their descendants.
History
 |
The history of La Courneuve begins as the rest of the region with the invasion of European tribes and the eventual conquering of the area by the Romans. During the Middle Ages, the area was like many small villages. With its proximity to Paris, the country area became a fashionable country destination, with a number of gentry residing there and 2 notable châteaus, Sainte-Foi and Poitronville. Towards the end of Napoleon's reign, the entire area experienced large population growth,this along with improved methods of farming eventually had area become the major legume producer for the Paris region.
1863 was the year of the first major industrial enterprise, and the city would soon become a strange mix of mass producing factories side by side with farmlands, industrial estates juxtaposed against bean plantations and that would continue until after World War II. During the 1960s, as Paris could no longer meet the demands of a further exploding population (largely the result of immigration from former colonies), La Courneuve, like the most other suburbs of Paris, was designated as one of the "zones à urbaniser en priorité" (areas to be urbanized quickly) and was built up at a very rapid pace, with the construction of large tower blocks and other HLM developments. Between 1962 and 1968 the population nearly doubled.
Today the area is one of the most deprived in the country, and is attempting to revitalize itself. The city is plagued by crime and was the scene of the accidental shooting of a young boy in 2005, prompting national outcry, and upon visiting in June 2005, Nicolas Sarkozy, then Minister of the Interior, vowed to clean out La Courneuve "with a Kärcher (high water pressure cleaner)". La Courneuve was also an area heavily affected by the riots of November 2005. The city has earned itself a reputation as a crime riden, desolate ghetto, and the local authority is in the course of implementing what it says will be far reaching projects and reforms for the city's economy and civil society. One of the largest housing projects is called " Les 4000" (meaning " the 4000"). It has one of the highest crime rate in the developed countries.[citation needed]
Demographics
Immigration
| Born in metropolitan France | Born outside metropolitan France | |||
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 62.6% | 37.4% | |||
| Born in overseas France |
Born in foreign countries with French citizenship at birth1 | EU-15 immigrants2 | Non-EU-15 immigrants | |
| 3.1% | 3.5% | 4.1% | 26.7% | |
| 1 This group is made up largely of former French settlers, such as pieds-noirs in Northwest Africa, followed by former colonial citizens who had French citizenship at birth (such as was often the case for the native elite in French colonies), as well as to a lesser extent foreign-born children of French expatriates. A foreign country is understood as a country not part of France in 1999, so a person born for example in 1950 in Algeria, when Algeria was an integral part of France, is nonetheless listed as a person born in a foreign country in French statistics. 2 An immigrant is a person born in a foreign country not having French citizenship at birth. An immigrant may have acquired French citizenship since moving to France, but is still considered an immigrant in French statistics. On the other hand, persons born in France with foreign citizenship (the children of immigrants) are not listed as immigrants. | ||||
Transport
La Courneuve is served by La Courneuve – 8 Mai 1945 station on Paris Métro Line 7 and by La Courneuve – Aubervilliers station on Paris RER line B.
Sources
- Template:Fr icon Un peu d'histoire. 07 Feb. 2006. La Ville de La Courneuve
- Mayol, Pierre. "The Policy of the City and Cultural Action". Canadian Journal of Communication Vol. 27, No. 2 (2002)
- Template:Fr iconVan Renterghem, Marion. "La Courneuve, « Rebeus » et « Renois » disent la vie des « 4000 »." Le Monde, 1 July 2005
External links
Wikimedia Commons has media related to La Courneuve.
