The policy section of the village pump is used to discuss existing and proposed policies and guidelines. If you want to propose something new other than a policy or guideline, use the proposals section.
Please see this FAQ page for a list of frequent proposals and the responses to them.
There is this page, Soda Dots. I know there is a policy stating it must be vertifiable and not made up or something to that extent. Anyway, should that be deleted and, if it should, how? Bseos (talk) 23:31, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Moved from archive as it's premature to close this - future datestamp applied to make sure it isn't archived again - Will(talk) 17:51, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Moving from WT:RFC...[reply]
About two months ago, I listed Requests for user comment for deletion under the premise that it did not work, and it's basically a quagmire of personal attacks and a stepping stone to ArbCom. The consensus in the MFD, including the creator of the process and the MfD's closer, is that it doesn't really work 99.9% of the time, and only exists because there is no other process existent. Just get rid of it and reinstate the Community Sanction Noticeboard, as that actually did do some good. Will(talk) 17:51, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like a good idea. I personally preferred CSN better than RFC/U. D.M.N. (talk) 18:10, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would support CSN provided there was a minimum time for comments (about 7 days). There should also be a maximum time for banning (1 year, same as ArbCom). R. Baley (talk) 18:14, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
CSN had teeth, RFC/U hardly any. CSN saw discussion and nuance, RFC/U sees ganging up and party-lines half the time. With the same provisos as R. Baley, except I'd prefer six months, it would be good to have it back. Relata refero (talk) 18:20, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe you could merge the two... CSN to me always seemed to arbitrary. Consensus could be declared in an hour or never... that kind of gives power to people who can generate a mob of "me too"s on demand. RFC is very structured but seldom goes anywhere. Is there any realistic way to have CSN but with a more normalized process, to give the accused a change to reply, slow down the mob mentality, and reasonably assess consensus? --W.marsh 18:28, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Would it need a new name possibly? Also please note than CSN only closed three and a half months ago and consensus might not of changed much since then. Also, a lot of things that "could" of gone there are instead now sent to WP:AN or WP:ANI, meaning they get a lot more traffic and stress put on them. D.M.N. (talk) 18:29, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
W.marsh, don't you think a minimum one-week period for each sanction discussion would help with the mob of "me-too"s? (Too much evidence has emerged lately of off-wiki co-ordination for us to discount that as a factor.) Relata refero (talk) 18:32, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A week sounds reasonable. If it's truly an emergency WP:BLOCK should apply, and if someone's transgressions don't seem blockworthy a week after the fact, then a ban was a bad idea to begin with. I'd also like to look at a waiting period before people start bolding words (ban, don't ban, etc.) maybe 48 hours of pure discussion without people taking definitive stands like in a vote. I think that would lead to better discussion, people tend to feel psychologically committed to a stance once they're locked in to it. --W.marsh 18:36, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
At Arbcom they've decided to take the ambitious step of waiting (I believe 48 hours, but I can't remember) before voting on the proposed decision page. We could do something similar, discussion can take place for 2 days, but no proposed "remedies" (ban, topic ban, etc.) could be offered until 48 hours after a new complaint had been certified (maybe not "certified," just following the initial complaint --basically enforce 2 days of discussion before any talk of "banning"). R. Baley (talk) 18:44, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
RFC works when it's used for asking for comments, it does not work when sanctions are sought, but that is not its purpose. The CSN should be brought back and RFC kept and used for its intended purpose. — Rlevse • Talk • 20:09, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Community Sanction Noticeboard had its own problems, though I'm not sure that it needed to be eliminated. Part of the problem is that dispute resolution mechanisms seem to come and go - Mediation went away, and now it's back under a new name, the CSN came and went, ANI seems to alter its mission every so often. I see three main problems with RFC/U: it is not empowered to sanction, it's intended to keep reduce the burden on ANI, and it's a mandatory step before going to ArbCom, which can sanction. The solution I see is to 1) bounce more stuff, both from RFC/U and ANI, to Mediation (wherever it's living right now), 2) have some level of sanction available at RFC/U, which would probably require administrator patrolling, and 3) allow admins to move complicated cases off ANI to RFC/U. Perhaps a name change would be in order - instead of "Request for Comment/User Conduct", it could become "Administrators' Noticeboard: Ongoing Problems" (to distinguish it from AN:Incidents). Making it part of the Administrators' Noticeboard would mean that sanctions would be available and it would be an appropriate preliminary step to ArbCom. It would also reduce the load at ANI, where probably half the volume of discussion is on complicated, drawn-out issues, even though those are fewer than 10% of the actual incidents reported. Community Sanctions would all get moved to AN/OP, also. As part of the AN cluster, AN/OP would be fairly highly visible. Argyriou(talk) 20:37, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm Opposed to this. Many of our processes suffer from a lynching mentality and RFC is as bad as some of them but it does serve a purpose. I really do not see a return to the votes for lynching that CSN turned into as a viable alternative. If we are replace this process we need some other way to garner community feedback into problematical or disputed editor behaviour and a noticeboard doesn't seem the way forward. SpartazHumbug! 22:22, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I concur with Rlevse's and Spartaz's comments. --Iamunknown 00:39, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Both W.marsh and Spartaz voice important concerns. The CSN was split off from ANI, and then was merged back into ANI after only 8 months. I think ANI, with its high visibility and traffic, is the proper place for most such discussions. The deletion discussion is very instructive as to the potential problems that must be kept in mind. I oppose any page dedicated exclusively to "sanctions," as well as any form of voting for a ban.
Getting back to RFC/U, I think its purpose and its place within the DR process should be better defined. The list of DR options here is rather bewildering, and does not indicate (what I see as) RFC/U's status as a second-tier DR forum for problems that have proven intractable in the first-tier forums. The third tier, of course, is Arbcom.
There is a grave problem when people see DR as a list of hoops that must be jumped through before you can ban someone. Emphasis should be placed on restoring relationships and on helping problematic editors to become better ones. Note that I am not talking about obvious trolls, who should be dealt with easily enough in the first-tier DR forums. To me, the purpose of the first-tier forums is to have one or two experienced editors tell a problematic editor that he/she is behaving problematically and should change. At this point, the case may be obvious enough that a block or ban would be appropriate. The purpose of RFC/U is then for the larger community to communicate that same message. If the problematic behavior continues, then an admin can enact a community ban, and the tougher cases can go to Arbcom. If I am out in left field on this, then tell me so or ignore me. If not, then the DR guidelines should be a lot more clear that this is the case. --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 05:09, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It would be good if it worked that way, but the practice is less harmonious. The process seems to escalate conflict rather than diminish it. I don't however know how to substitute it. CSN was seen as a kangaroo court, so that too had problems. DGG (talk) 09:11, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Practice does not need to be harmonious. I'm not so naive as to think that a large fraction of people are actually focused on "restoring relationships" etc. But I'd settle for orderly. --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 01:29, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The problem I have seen in the few RFC/U's I've seen (as an outsider) is that there is very little in the way of objective evidence. It usually ends up in IDONTLIKEHIM comments, or sometimes people siding with the nominator they like or the defendant they like, or even lining up with the POV they like.
Any complaint, whether it is in an RFC/U or an AN/I or a proposed AN/OP, should have specific charges based on policy or guidelines and specific diffs to support the charge, and diffs to demonstrate attempts to resolve the problem. A user who behaves badly should be warned every time the problem is noticed. Just as we warn against vandalism, we should warn about NPA, incivility, etc. (If we had more warning templates, users might issue warnings more often.) If we warned users more often we might see fewer problems. If problems persist, then the warnings will provide the evidence to justify blocks.
AIV is not contentious because there is a visible history of escalating warnings to demonstrate the problem, to demonstrate attempts to resolve the problem, and to justify the length of a block. 3RR is not contentious because diffs provide objective evidence of bad behavior. RFC/U, AN/I, CSN almost always are (were) contentious because there is usually no objective evidence to demonstrate the problem and attempts to resolve the problem. I think that RFC/U would be more effective if it required specific charges of violated guidelines, specific diffs to support the charges, and specific diffs to demonstrate attempts to resolve the problem.
I was just about to make these suggestions about specificity over at WT:RFC when I saw the link to this discussion. I might still suggest it over there to try to improve the process while waiting to see if a consensus develops over here to eliminate or replace the process. I'm also thinking of starting a new section over here to suggest that we should issue warnings for bad behavior much more often. I have seen a lot of incivility go unwarned. If we had escalating templates for warnings, editors might use them more often. Sbowers3 (talk) 02:41, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
IMHO, RfC on User Conduct should be used to elicit a wider community involvement in the background of the situation instead of the superficial cat-calling that we stumble acrost in article-talk and user-space. I frequently accidentally wander into a vicious debate, simply because I visit a lot of pages. The RfC/U posted to the article-talk, and user-talk of both the RfC presenter and the subject would allow for impartial input. Which should continue for a minimum of three days there. Then, as above mentioned, the subject can be given some breathing room in which to evaluate improvement or at least detachment. After sufficient time, if an editor feels that anti-project editing still exists, then it would be appropriate to escalate to CSN and allow at least 3 further days for responses to be gathered. So my nutshell, RfC/U as a precursor to CSN and a necessary part of DR.Wjhonson (talk) 02:59, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with ANY system of open community comment on another editors actions, regardless of which Wiki-acronym you attach to it, is that it is always open to sniping and abuse (once someones name shows up there, everyone they ever have pissed off gangs up on them). The question is whether such abuse is willing to be tolerated in order to have a system whereby the community can comment on user behavior. You can't have a system in place that is immune to this kind of abuse, but neither should you throw out the baby with the bathwater... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 06:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am strongly in favor of the WP:RFC/U system. It isn't good at seeking punishments for past bad behavior, but that's partly because sanctions are preventive, not punitive -- the point is, sanctions should be applied when bad behavior continues, rather than because it existed. RFCs are good for that -- if a user pushes POV, for instance, and it becomes well-established that this is the case in an RFC, and they continue to do it, sanctions can be safely applied. RFCs sometimes get out of control, but that's actually a good thing -- think of it as water in the mountains, it needs to come downhill somewhere. WP:RFC/U is a good way of handling that release of tensions because of the way its rules keep editors from commenting back and forth, which tends to build tension. Plus, they have a good way of adding lots of uninvolved editors to the mix, which distributes the energy. Mangojuicetalk 15:49, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really know what to think. The Wikipedia community hasn't shown itself to be anymore trustworthy than the Wikipedia admins. Both increasing and decreasing admin accountability or things like RFC/U seem counterintuitive. Making it more strict allows people to witch-hunt users and admins they don't like. Making it more lax allows trolls and corrupt admins to do whatever they want. The problem is that so many Wikipedia editors have zero regard for reason. That needs to be addressed first, I think. ☯Zenwhat (talk) 11:35, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
RFC works (as stated above) when it's used for asking for comments on behavioral issues of a user or users, it does not work when used for witch-hunts, lynchings, Public floggings, personal attacks, bitterness, and character assassinations. Since this process does seem to escalate some conflicts rather than diminish them, perhaps modifying the guidelines within the process is needed as opposed to removal. Without RfC/U, the only formal steps in dispute resolution that focuses on editors are AN/I and ArbCom. Conversly AN/I could serve as an appropriate venue and does provide wide community involvement on issues (Apropriatly a modified format would be needed on AN/I to replace RfC/U). Processes exist to have a purpose, I belive this does, but some reform may be needed to improve it.--Hu12 (talk) 13:18, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If you thought RFC is terrible, CSN was horrendous. I don't ever want to see anything like that back on wikipedia ever again. But if I do, I shall certainly crucify the inventor using their own process. ;-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 15:48, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I like Argyriou's suggestion of making it AN/Ongoing problems. From the very little experience I have with RFC/U, my impression is that it's essentially a temporary repealing of the NPA policy on both sides. There are votes but no conclusions. After lambasting each other for days, both sides claim victory, and use the archived RfC as a method of ongoing bypassing of NPA by simply providing a convenient link to the RfC.
On second thought, don't call it "Ongoing problems". Self-fulfilling prophecy. Call it AN/Problems. A header at the top of the page can specify what types of problems are postable there. --Coppertwig (talk) 22:02, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've been involved recently in an ongoing controversy regarding a disruptive editor that has gone through an informal RfC on the talk page of the affected article, a discussion on the No Original Research Noticeboard, a formal RfC on the talk page of the affected article, and finally an extended discussion on AN/I. At the end of a month of these discussions there was a clear consensus for a topic ban, but everyone seemed to be uncertain as to how to formally impose the topic ban.
The advantage of CSN (as I understand it) was that there were people who were knowledgeable about the problems and procedures for dealing with disruptive editing. The concerns that led to WP:DE first appeared in WP:Expert Retention and sought to provide a speedy way to deal with such disruption. As it stands now, the lengthy and ineffective procedure of dealing with disruption "operates toward an end of exhausting the patience of productive rules-abiding editors," which is one of the definitions of disruptive editing. From what I've heard, CSN apparently went overboard on instantaneous bans, but the present ineffective model has become part of the problem. I'm not an advocate of any particular solution, but we need to have effective procedures and make them clear to all editors and admins, if we are to deal with disruptive editing, point of view pushing, personal attacks, etc. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 14:42, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
How to guide
I think RFC is a good way to gather evidence and gauge community sentiments. If an RFC/U convinces an editor to cease causing problems, that is a good result. If they continue, a note can be posted at ANI requesting a community remedy, such as an editing restriction or ban, with a link to the RFC/U. If there is no consensus at ANI, the case can go to ArbCom, and again, a link to the RFC/U provides much of the necessary evidence. The processes work when people use them correctly. JehochmanTalk 14:05, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To be honest, if we ever want RFCU to ever work, we need more admin intervention - Anittas was indefed a second time in October. The attack he was blocked for was on RFCU for twelve days, but nothing happened until ANI got wind of it. Will(talk) 00:50, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
BLP-Lock: A way to deal with contentious BLP articles
After reviewing the Don Murphy DRV, it's obvious that the community has some differences with regards to BLP articles, Notability, and how to handle things. I tried to come up with a compromise that would ease some folks mind with BLP. I actually brought this up with one of the folks whose article would be covered under this policy, and they were pretty positive with it. It alleviated one of his major problems about having a Wikipedia article about them.
A) The article can be placed under BLP-LOCK by any uninvolved administrator. When an administrator places an article under this policy, they must either refer to an existing OTRS ticket, or submit one, and detail why such action is necessary in that OTRS ticket.
B) If an OTRS volunteer agrees that the article should be placed under BLP-LOCK, the article will be stubbed down to a bare-bones situation (just bare facts, no controversial information), and fully-protected for a period of a MININUM of six months (this can be permanent).
C) During this BLP-LOCK status, the only edits that should be made are those via {{editprotected}} requests that have full-consensus on the talk page. Any information that not reliably sourced should not be added to the article, even with consensus. While a subject of the article does not get an automatic veto over information being added to the page, administrators who handle BLP-LOCK editprotected requests should be fully aware of the BLP policy and judge accordingly.
This is actually fairly close to the Stable Versions idea we've been promised for eons going forward.. It reduces a major part of the reason that folks (here and elsewhere) are upset about BLP: That any "child with a computer" can vandalize it, and then these vandalizations are available in the history forever.. and for folks that don't have people watching/OWNing the article, these vandalizations can persist for a period of time until caught. Instead, the article grows in a more controlled manner.
The reason for thinking that the OTRS ticket is necessary.. I'm not sure this is necessary or a good idea for ALL BLP articles, but if an article needs BLP-LOCK, then it should have above-normal levels of attention paid to it, and OTRS is one way to do that. I know that the problem is that OTRS can be overwhelmed at times, I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is on it, and work OTRS/BLP-LOCK if it goes through.
Also, on a strictly personal level of thought.. if a subject complains to WP via OTRS, this should be a standard option (to BLP-LOCK their article) going forward. It's bad enough if a subject needs to email us once if there's problems with their article. We shouldn't have to make then continually monitor their article. 21:14, 21 March 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by SirFozzie (talk • contribs)
Television schedules in network articles
I removed a primetime schedule table from Seven Network, upon finding opposition to its presence on the article's talk page. But an examination of other television network articles indicates that their use is quite widespread.
Am I missing something here? How is this week's television schedule encyclopedic? WP:NOT suggests that Wikipedia is not an electronic program guide. Whilst it may be useful for people to be able to find the current TV schedule in the article, that is not the point. Five or 10 years down the track, how is what was on TV today going to be important to our treatment of the article's subject, i.e. the television network? - Mark 11:24, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My opinion is they're outside the scope of WP, as per WP:NOT cited above. Secondly, they're not going to be right so their use shouldn't be encouraged. Simply listing the headline shows would avoid this problem completely. --AtD (talk) 07:29, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've made the bold move of removing all the schedules from Nine Network, Ten Network, ABC1, ABC2 and SBS TV as Mark has protected Seven Network from IP edits. Even if the decision is reversed, at least it'll stimulate discussion. --AtD (talk) 09:05, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support such a move, and I agree fully with AtD. Daniel (talk) 09:09, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Since the edits have been reverted a few times without any discussion, I thought I'd just highlight that WP:NOT really leaves no room for interpretation on this issue.
"Wikipedia articles are not:Directories, directory entries, electronic program guide, or a resource for conducting business. For example, an article on a radio station generally should not list upcoming events, current promotions, phone numbers, current schedules, etc., although mention of major events, promotions or historically significant programme lists and schedules (such as the annual United States network television schedules) may be acceptable."
--AtD (talk) 12:36, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Pile on support for enforcing WP:NOT. Guides such as these in WP are plain ridiculous. —Moondyneclick! 13:20, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just removed current schedule from the Nine HD article. I support for the current schedules to be removed. Same should be done to Radio Stations as well?. -- Bidgee (talk) 17:58, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If were doing this, I demand all schedules taken off, including those of other countries like NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX...
AND also the season schedule changes and program returns.
Wouldn't this mean that the series of articles of United States Network Television Schedule needs to be deleted? I think a general prime time schedule is fine as long as it is updated. It is basically like a current list of shows the network is currently broadcasting. ♪♫Alucard16♫♪ 23:44, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Those US schedule articles contain the general prime-time schedules simply for Monday to Friday for those years, not every day of the year. What we had was people coming in every day and updating the "current schedule" section to state exactly what minor changes were made to the schedules for one week from today. This seems to me like exactly what the section in WP:NOT was written to avoid. Hence, it is the being updated part which is the most troublesome. And the articles already have extensive lists of shows the networks broadcast. - Mark 02:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I see Mark, would it be best to remove the prime time schedules from the American networks too? Like on CBS for example. The schedule on the American networks though is just a general schedule and does not take into count specials, etc. Similar to United States Network Television Schedule. Or are they fine to leave in? ♪♫Alucard16♫♪ 03:06, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I guess it depends on how they are used in those articles and how often the American TV networks change their schedules. I suspect their schedules change much less often than Australian networks, hence why they have those decade-by-decade articles of the schedules. - Mark 03:41, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In the United States, the primetime schedule of a TV network generally stays the same for the entire ( year-long) season, barring one or two midseason replacements. Is this not the case in, say, Australia? Squidfryerchef (talk) 12:33, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hockey articles
I've decided to make an attempt to end this nonsense, I am referring to usage of diacritics on articles related to Ice hockey, a while ago, the ice hockey project has come up with this: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Archive13#Diacritics on non-team and non-player pages, now I find this ridiculous, we choose to misspell people's names and we do so only on some articles? Why, I wonder, do people oppose uh, swiggles? and what people have against correct spelling, example the player's name isJaromír Jágr it isn't Jaromir Jagr, no matter how simpler that is to type or how better that looks to some North American editors. That's why I propose we create a serious guideline, or even policy that allows us to spell names correctly. The DominatorTalkEdits 04:28, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I see you're aware of the guideline page, but linked it as an external link. Ah well. Anyway, the reason for opposing "squiggles" is that most folks can't easily find a way to enter them on an English keyboard. You either have to know an arcane Alt code or pull up some kind of character map for them. And, like other names, we use the most common name given in English media. If it's printed without the diacriticals in most English sources, then we name the article without them. -- Kesh (talk) 06:30, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Can't easily enter them is not a valid reason, it's difficult to enter IPA pronunciation, but that's not a reason for not using it. Also, diacritics are used every well else on Wikipedia, only a few selective individuals from the hockey WikiProject have decided to launch a campaign of adding misspellings, as 'a' is not the same thing as 'á', 'â' or 'ä' so simply omitting them is not in any way correct. Furthermore, reliability defeats the language the source is in, in this case, the person's birth certificate - with diacritics - is a far more reliable source than any English sources, most of which omit diacritics for the sake of convenience and none of them are reliable sources for spelling of names, while some sources might be reliable for information on Hockey statistics this does not make them reliable for spelling. Think about this example: if a reliable newspaper article is written about overcrowded prisons, then we can cite this in the Prison article, but let's say that supposedly, in this article a metaphor would be made "graceful as a pigeon" (bad example, sorry), would this be considered conclusive material that pigeons are graceful, therefore a reliable addition to the pigeon or bird articles? Probably not, because it is not an article about pigeons, in the same way, an article about hockey can't be considered a reliable source for a person's name, but on the other hand, their birth certificate is about the person's name therefore a reliable source for the name, with the diacritics. The DominatorTalkEdits 06:52, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All the necessary characters with diacritics are located below the edit window in the section titled "Characters," and the user simply has to move the cursor to where they want to put the character, and then click on the character, and it will appear where the cursor was at previously. So any sort of difficulty of entering in these characters is unfounded and it is a completely illegitimate excuse. Wikipedia is about providing correct and useful information, and we shouldn't be taking shortcuts and providing misleading information, as it detracts from that goal. Thank You. --Sukh17T • C • E 07:10, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If you really want this, then see about getting consensus for the change on that guideline's Talk page. I'm indifferent on the matter. -- Kesh (talk) 09:16, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well as you've seen, we have not been able to gain consensus that way, otherwise we wouldn't be here. The DominatorTalkEdits 14:25, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps you should accept that consensus is against you in this case, then. This is not intended to be snarky; my apologies if it comes across as such. Horologium(talk) 15:51, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Consensus? Where? I don't see the slightest indication of consensus anywhere. The DominatorTalkEdits 16:31, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
People keep pointing to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English), but where does it say in there to misspell foreign names? It says to use English, and Jaromir Jagr is not English or a translation of the proper Jaromír Jágr in fact, if that was translated into English it would look more something like Yahroumeer Yagger obviously that's original research though, not to mention the fact that diacritics are far from being foreign characters. Also, there is no consensus anywhere, just because a few North American editors from a WikiProject who are baffled by correct spelling decide to use it sometimes, but misspell the words on other occasions, doesn't indicate consensus, and even if it did consensus can change.The DominatorTalkEdits 16:54, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The very first paragraph has several examples, including three names in which the English version differs from the original language. The most relevant would be the first one (Franz Josef Strauss), not Franz Josef Strauß. (Yes, that character is also down in the table below the editing box, just like all the diacritics that are not used in English, except in loanwords from other languages). It's not misspelling to omit the diacritics, just English usage. Please throttle back your rhetoric about those with whom you have a disagreement, as it's rude and borders upon personal attacks. Horologium(talk) 17:15, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Personal attacks? The worst thing I have said is that the people are North American (that's an insult?) and that they are baffled by them which is 100% and I could provide diffs, see my first post "swiggles, swirls and dots" is that not being baffled? I'd like you to note that the example you've provided is quite different as it is a common translation not just omitting the diacritics. Is it not the person who decides his name? My name contains diacritical marks and personally I'd be highly insulted if somebody wrote an encyclopedia article about me with the diacritics missing, and yes I would consider it a misspelling. Also, what's the point really? Jaromir Jagr redirects to Jaromír Jágr anyway. I've seen editors (not going to name) say that the diacritics are "overkill" on the Ľubomír Višňovský, this I view as highly offensive both to that person and to the language, objecting to the way a person's name is spelled? Not going to make any insults, but it took me a while to calm myself after I saw that highly offensive comment. And I'm sorry if I sound like I'm making personal attacks, but the way I feel is that this offends me, that's the fact of it, and frankly your definition of a personal attack is strange, a personal attack is "You are an idiot" or "Person X is a jackass", but this is not a personal attack: "The person's opinion is bullshit" (though pretty rude) and I don't really see how my saying that "consensus" was created by a few members of a WikiProject is a personal attack, I was stating fact, it's as if I said that you made a personal attack on me when you said that my comments border on personal attacks, and I don't take this accusation lightly. The DominatorTalkEdits 17:31, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Your current method doesn't seem to be working. Really, just try doing this gently, and over the long term. See how far that gets you. My own opinion: I can't understand why people don't want to use diacritics. I have two questions: 1) does "Jaromír Jágr" redirect to "Jaromír Jagr"? 2)How do you answer people how say that Jaromír Jágr's hockey shirt will not have the diacritic? Dan Beale-Cocks 17:41, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
{After EC)Some languages treat letters with diacritics as separate letters (see Diacritic#Languages with letters containing diacritics) and some do not. Czech appears to be one of the few Slavic languages which does not differentiate between letters with diacritics and those without. For Polish and Croatian, it's simple transliteration, since you wish to classify the German ß and the Polish/Croatian č as separate letters rather than diacritic variants. In fact, looking through the article I linked, almost all of the non-Latin European languages (and some of those too, such as Spanish with ñ) consider diacritic letters as separate letters. As to the "overkill" comment left by another editor, that is insensitive and a very poor choice of words, but does not negate the fact that few (if any) English sources will include all (or any) of the many diacritics in that name. As to the "personal attacks", identifying a group of editors as being baffled by diacritics is an insult. Horologium(talk) 18:14, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As someone who has argued for the usage of diacritics for a number of years now, you will not win in getting concensus to use them on all articles. The reason that guideline is there is that we had to find a way to stop the constant edit wars that were going on with people reverting each others edits. So in order to stop the waring a compromise was developed to try and make things simmer down. But there are enough strong opinions on both sides to never reach true concensus. What we currently have is not a consensus but a compromise to stop the constand reverting that was happening on hockey pages. As for your question on why North American pages don't have them and player pages do. It is because teams don't put diacritics on the jersey's of players. So it was an obvious place to make a compromise. If the league doesn't recognize them then pages refering to things about the league should not either. (Atleast thats what we compromised. As I stated I think they should be on all articles.) -Djsasso (talk) 18:00, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Djsasso, but what I'm trying to do, is take this to a whole new level, currently the status quo is to have them on player pages but not NHL pages, while this does make some sense (i.e. it isn't just a completely arbitrary way to have them sometimes, and sometimes not), but I still find it strange. I mean, we agree that obviously the person's name includes the diacritics, that's why we use them on player articles and world cup articles etc., but it's not like the person's name is different when they're playing in the NHL, so we just comply with what the jerseys say, and the jerseys are wrong, we can see that, or perhaps wrong isn't the correct word, they're not wrong in the sense that it's an error, just wrong in the sense that what appears on the jersey is not the player's name. So what I want to do is enhance consensus, moving away from a compromise to an actual solution and I want to hear more anti-diacritic arguments, so far I believe we've addressed them better than you've addressed our views. English sources don't use diacritics; counter argument to that is that the English sources aren't reliable for names. Jerseys use them, counter argument is that the jerseys are incorrect and simply omit the diacritics as a stylistic approach, same with some of the English sources. I'm sorry, but I believe that anti-diacritic arguments are just rather weak. The DominatorTalkEdits 18:15, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The problem, is that people DON'T agree that their names include them when in English usage. Remember this is an English wikipedia so depending what side of the fence you are on, english sources are reliable for spellings of names. I say they aren't but a good majority say they do. This isn't just a hockey debate, its been going on through all of wikipedia for years. And yes every so often someone comes along and tries again for a solution. And tempers flair up huge wars go on. And then people get upset and leave wikipedia permanently. This compromise was created in an attempt to stop losing good editors. In fact I think we are closer to a solution than the rest of wikipedia when it comes to these things. -Djsasso (talk) 18:19, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You're right, I've seen editors leave over more minor things, but sometimes a compromise is a good solution, and sometimes it compromises Wikipedia's quality. Also, think about this, 'ä' for example is completely different from 'a' and it isn't correct to add just the 'a'. That's like substituting 'B' for 'ß' because they look similar, it's just not correct, so the reason I'm trying to reopen this is because it introduces factual inaccuracies, no diacritics is not a translation and with diacritics seems "foreign" to some people, but policy says to use the native name if a direct English translation doesn't exist, which I believe is the case here. The DominatorTalkEdits 18:29, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Good luck. I hope you do succeed but I know there are enough editors out there who will never listen and always oppose this so you aren't likely to get far. I was just making sure you understood why the compromise was in place. Only reason I think we got as far as we did towards having diactritics at the hockey project was that we have alot of european editors. Otherwise the current concensus would most likely be no diacritics as almost all North Americans opposed them. -Djsasso (talk) 18:34, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Arguments
Here I'd like anybody to list arguments both for and against diacritics and anybody else to try and make direct counter arguments, focusing only on the exact argument made, no history, nos suggestions of compromises just simple arguments. The DominatorTalkEdits 19:06, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You have stated that your issue with diacritucs is on articles relating to hockey. Please move discussion over to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey, which is a more relevant forum for a focus on a single issue. Horologium(talk) 19:11, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, I don't think this is a hockey issue (whatever the motivation may be for its being raised). In many areas of WP you get people arguing about whether foreign words should appear with diacritics, and we ought to have some uniform principles to refer to. I don't know where the best place to discuss it is, but it's certainly not the Ice Hockey project.--Kotniski (talk) 19:20, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's the whole reason I started this, because a few people deciding something at 1 of many WikiProjects which it could effect doesn't solve anything. I am at the correct place, I am asking people to review a guideline and I wish to establish a seperate guideine regarding diacritics and especially diacritics in people's names. Plus I kind of started this subsection just for arguments relating to diacritics. The DominatorTalkEdits 19:25, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As others pointed out to you, this is a perennial proposal. Current consensus is that we go by the guidelines you've already seen. It's unlikely to change. If you really want to establish a separate guideline, write one. See if you can get it accepted. VP is good for feeling the waters, and I think you've seen that the waters on this subject are very rough indeed. The next step would be writing your proposed guideline, so we actually have something to give feedback on. -- Kesh (talk) 15:53, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Point taken, I'll write one when I have more time, should I try one that focuses on diacritics on Wikipedia in general or one that bases itself solely on hockey articles? The DominatorTalkEdits 22:26, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WP:HOCKEY has already reached a compromise, which Dominik92 disagrees with, thus the debate was brought to a more diverse forum. As far as arguments go, I'll simply echo what's been said many times in the past. This is the English Wikipedia, and diacritics are not part of the English language in most cases. As examples, the predominant spelling of players such as Dominik Hasek and Jaromir Jagr in English do not use diacritics. Frankly, I'd rather go the opposite direction of Djsasso, and remove all diacritics, except as a note in each individual's bio, but the compromise we've worked out at WP:HOCKEY is workable: North American articles don't use them, international articles do. Resolute 22:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, diacritics are much a part of the English language when it uses foreign words, the players' names are different, they're foreign and use diacritics therefore we should use the normal spelling with diacritics. The DominatorTalkEdits 02:07, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, no. One only has to pick up any newspaper, magazine or book written in the English language to see that foreign language names are spelled using English translations. Or, as an example, A google search for "Dominik Hasek", restricted to English language websites yields 59,600 results. A search for "Dominik Hašek" yields 993 results. "š" is not a letter in the English language. Resolute 05:43, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That doesn't matter, 'š' might not be a letter, but it's part of his name, and translating it into 's' is incorrect, 'š' is not the same thing as 's', in fact it would be more properly translated as 'sh' though that is of course original research. And the English sources used are not reliable for names, if a source is reliable for something that doesn't mean you can consider it reliable for everything else. The DominatorTalkEdits 14:13, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So, the NHL, NHLPA, ESPN, New York Times, TSN.ca, Globe and Mail, Rogers Sportsnet, etc., etc., etc. are all unreliable sources then? "Hašek" is the spelling of his name in Czech, not English. Your argument is akin to demanding that all instances of Alexei Yashin in the English Wikipedia be changed to "Алексей Яшин" Resolute 15:52, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What is the policy on diacritics?
A case came up recently when the article 'Mihai Şuba' was moved to Mihai Suba. That cases is not interesting to be honest as the person in question is now British but would like to know the policy as sometimes occurs with chess players with diacritics in the name. SunCreator (talk) 14:37, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
RE to Resolute: Yes, those are all unreliable sources for names. 2. there is no spelling of Hašek in English, that's my whole point! And the example you used is rather weak, I think you know why, there's a difference between the Cyrillic and Latin alphabets, the simple diacritics I'm advocating are part of the same alphabet as English. RE to Suncreator: The policy on diacritics is what we're discussing, there's no real policy, there's a lot of dispute over it, I don't know anything about the person you linked, but I guess it depends on whether he actually changed his name after he became British, if there's no evidence that he did so, I think it's more appropriate to have the original diacritical version. The DominatorTalkEdits 22:21, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Would you mind explaining why the New York Times (eg) isn't a reliable source for names? shoy 20:57, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Why would you consider it a reliable source for names? Where does it say in those articles "Dominik Hašek changed his name to Dominik Hasek"? The article is related to hockey, not naming, see my example above (rather bad one) for a lengthier reasoning. The DominatorTalkEdits 21:55, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Welcome to the English language version of Wikipedia. The English alphabet contains 26 character, and includes no characters with diacritical marks, no pictograms, no ideograms. As much as you may wish it, English writers in general usage will transliterate words written in a foreign character set. Would you demand that writers of Arabic, Kanji, and other scripts use English characters for English names? How should articles on the Hindi Wikipedia refer to Dominik Hašek in the midst of their script?
We certainly have a convenience that the additional characters in a lot of European languages are easily depict-able and understandable to readers of the English WIkipedia. That means that on the pages for place and people names, we have the opportunity to legibly depict the name in its native language. But in general usage throughout the rest of the encyclopedia. it is perfectly appropriate that the common English spelling be used. (This is the same reasoning why there are entries for Tonys and entries for Anthonys even though they are the same name. The common usage prevails.) In English you saute, send your resume, and visit Zaire (even though the words are borrowed). Again, try to apply your reasoning to any non-Latin encyclopedia and see what kind of a mess we would have. Can we no longer refer to India, but must use भारत? --Marcinjeske (talk) 00:25, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In English you saute, send your resume, and visit Zaire - you should have said "In US English. I sauté, I have a CV not a Résumé (didn't you notice where your wikilink actually goes to??). Dan Beale-Cocks 12:41, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Dominator, Reliable Source does not mean a source you like, it does not mean a source you agree with, it does not even mean the source is right. One of the most common problems on Wikipedia is arguments over "truth" and "right". Wikipedia's general solution for preventing such arguments is to just dump the entire arguments over "truth" and "right", instead relying on Verifiable outside Reliable Sources. shoy's attempt at solution here is that, instead of engaging in a personal debate over the "right" or "true" way that names with diacritical marks should be treated in English, we look to third-party Reliable Sources. We instead look at how major mainstream reputable sources actually *do* use the English language and how they actually *do* handle such names. By absolutely any reasonable standard the New York Times is a top tier Reliable Source on the English Language, and in particular a top source on how foreign names are handled in English. The Google search was another prime example - a Google search on "Dominik Hasek" on English language websites yields 59,600 results, "Dominik Hašek" yields 993 results. It doesn't matter who is "right", it doesn't matter what we "should" do, it doesn't matter if we like it or not, the one thing we can agree on is the fact is that VerifiableReliable Sources show that "Dominik Hasek" is the actual in-practice English rule, and that "Dominik Hašek" is at best a fringe occurence in English. Maybe that is wrong, maybe it is bad, maybe it is rude, but that is the Verifiable Reliable Source information out there. And as a rule Wikipedia bypasses "truth" and operates in a Verifiable Reliable Source universe, even if those Verifiable Reliable Sources are wrong. Sometimes that sucks, but it is a very effective way to resolve most HolyWars. Alsee (talk) 01:33, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that it is what reliable sources use, but I still maintain that those are not reliable sources for names. I don't think that a reliable source for one thing is necessarily a reliable source for everything. Another thing is that I don't think making an argument that involves non-Latin characters is valid, diacritical marks are part of the same alphabet, an Arabic or Greek or whatever alphabet is not the same thing. I now truly believe that this dispute is unsolvable, I will continue writing diacritics where they are to be put and no offense but I'm ignoring some WikiProject's compromise (I won't revert anyone who eliminates diacritics from my edits on a hockey page, but I'll keep using them when/if I add new content). The DominatorTalkEdits 20:55, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A quick survey:
University of Virginia Press: "Use diacritics and special letters correctly in all place-names and names of individuals."
National geographic Society Style Manual: "Languages with Latin alphabets: Retain the original diacritical marks (accents, apostrophes, dots, cedillas, glottals, etc.) in unanglicized words in the following languages: Czech, Danish, Dutch, Finnish, French, German, Hawaiian, Hungarian, Icelandic, Irish, Italian, Latvian, Norwegian, Polish, Portuguese, Slovak, Spanish, Swedish, and Turkish."
I was unable to gain online access to either the New York Times Manual of Style or the Chicago Manual of Style (the 13th edition doesn't seem to address the issue). Bovlb (talk) 00:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
These I can see as being more scholarly sources, better than the NYT which is not reliable regarding the English language at all really. The DominatorTalkEdits 13:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we should dismiss the style guides of major news organisations out of hand. Bovlb (talk) 15:48, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well if you ever come across the style guidelines let us know, thanks. The DominatorTalkEdits 21:54, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
While the article you link about character-related fatalities was certainly morbidly interesting, it doesn't really have much to do with the present discussion. That was a case of poor internationalization - the software the wife used handled certain characters poorly. (And really, the core problem there is essentially that a spelling error creates such a drastic difference in meaning and for some reason the people involved decided to debate semantics using knives instead of words). If you are interested in an internationalized version of Wikipedia, there is one for many written languages. Although I am unable to view your second link regarding Korean names... that is again a subtly different issue involving disjoint character sets.
What we are discussing here is the way one language's wikipedia references proper nouns like persons and places named in a language foreign to that wikipedia. So far there has been no suggestion that referencing a foreign person (named in a language using an extended Latin character set) using an "english" version of that name will cause confusion as to who is being referenced, so i do not see how the cell phone example would apply. Clearly, it is appropriate to mention the "native" spelling of a name in the native alphabet in the article devoted to that subject. But insisting on "native" spelling elsewhere in the encyclopedia would preclude readers/editors who do not speak/write the foreign language from being able to play their role. You are never going to get a reasonable pronunciation just by having the right characters (the sound differences between even languages that share the same character set are too vast). If you are concerned about correct pronunciation, then a phonetic spelling should be provided on the subject's page.
I hope I am not rambling too much in the above... I think what I want to say boils down to two points:
The Wikipedia for a given language should primarily use that language (and the associated character set) to describe the covered topics. Doing otherwise disadvantages the readers of that Wikipedia by presenting information in a form potentially illegible to them.
An article should refer to persons and places in the same way as the sources it is based on refer to them. Hence it is relevant to acknowledge that for the vast majority of foreign individuals, English-language sources will refer to them with an Anglicized name.
Having looked through a bunch of articles relating to French and Polish individuals (chosen because of my familiarity), I have to admit that current usage on Wikipedia is inconsistent and in some ways more supportive of your reasoning. For example Gérard Depardieu is referred to with the accent aigue over the first e in most pages, although a fair number do use the Gerard Depardieu redirect. Now when it comes to the press, the vast majority of English language press references are to Gerard Depardieu (no accent), with exceptions for some UK (The Guardian) and Canadian sources (and English-language publications in French-speaking countries).
So, perhaps a more nuanced guideline is in order: Persons should be called by the name most commonly used by sources in the context of the current article. It does follow typical Wikipedia practice of shunting difficult questions off onto our sources. --Marcinjeske (talk) 08:15, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Referring to an earlier comment:
In English you saute, send your resume, and visit Zaire - you should have said "In US English. I sauté, I have a CV not a Résumé (didn't you notice where your wikilink actually goes to??). Dan Beale-Cocks 12:41, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Your criticism is fair... I may be generalizing usage... however my admittedly quick checks of both UK and US media show the same general trend of using saute over sauté [1] and sometimes even both side by side. Yes, I did notice where resume led to... but since when is Wikipedia a reliable source for Wikipedia. resume with no accent is dominating English language usage. And if you must object with Curriculum Vitae (I hope you meant to spell that curriculum vitæ), I can find a dozen more borrowed words that have lost their foreign spellings, even in the UK. Space food a la carte - BBC News, Paris. Regardless I chose the examples poorly because those two were not proper nouns anyway.
As long as we are referencing Wikipedia: Czech alphabet says that Czech has two alphabet versions... a "standard" one that matched the English alphabet, and an "extended" set. The original issue here involved the names of Czech hockey players (like Jaromír Jágr) being written in the more limited 26 character alphabet. So it seems to me that even writing in Czech may drop the diacritics on some occasions.
So, are we ready to update all the references to Cæsar in the wikipeida's for English (Caesar), French (César), Italian (Cesare), and so on? What about the Wisła river in Poland, which is referenced as Visla by the Czechs, Vistula in English, Weichsel in German? What about the mess that would be made if we tried to tell 20-some language that currently use another form of [[2]] from the official name "Warszawa"? Napoléon? You think English is bad... tell that to these people or our proud Latin brothers. In short, any guideline will have to rely on what sources do, because there are no straightforward rules... sometimes names are translated (Ioannes Paulus == John Paul == Jan Pawel == Jan Pavel, etc), sometime diacritics are dropped, sometimes other letters get manipulated. I think the only reasonable answer is to parrot what our sources do. --Marcinjeske (talk) 09:43, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that sources don't always agree. Most press just drop the diacritics because they're difficult to print or just too much work or I dunno. But I don't think I've ever read a serious book that had diacritics dropped. The DominatorTalkEdits 13:54, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The only way I believe that is if you define "serious book" to mean "a book that keeps the diacritics". The Man who Loved Only Numbers calls its subject Erdos, not Erdõs, as does Biographies of Scientists for Sci-Tech Libraries, and Topics in Analysis and Its Applications talks of Erdös, not Erdõs.--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:43, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OK, that was a bit of an exaggeration, but I still stand by the fact that most books use diacritics, at least from my experience and frankly it doesn't matter. As long as there is ambiguity among reliable sources, we can't make conclusions. I'm starting to think that the compromise made sort of works. As I said, I refuse to omit diacritics anywhere in the encyclopedia, but I will only revert somebody removing them on a biographical article. The DominatorTalkEdits 06:01, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
NPOV and criticism pages
I am writing to challenge critism pages as I believe they should be avoided to keep NPOV. I believe appraisal pages would be preferable or a more balanced approach as I believe wikipedia is becoming a a very negative place and like trivia I think "criticism" pages should be depreciated in return for a more neutral approach. I futhermore believe that Wikipedia: Neutral Point of View does not deal with these pages correctly. for example
I look forward to any "appraisal" you have of this proposal
PheonixRMB (talk) 14:59, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's a bad example. The page is so long that it would overhelm the Space Shuttle program article with negative stuff, and the criticism seems substantiated (altought it lacks a lot more sources). As a quick assessment, I look at Talk:Criticism_of_the_Space_Shuttle_program#New_Article and it seems that the criticism was originally splitted out for lenght reason. Try to find an example where the criticism can be shortened enough to merge into the main article without lenght problems, or where the criticism is splitted out for POV reasons --Enric Naval (talk) 18:43, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The concern was that 33% of the article was criticism and growing. If it was merged back, it would be 50%. You see, NASA and the space program do have a lot of flaws, like Feynman described, so the criticism percentage can only go up, and the poor article would look like a hatchet job against the NASA.
Also, there is probably a bias with with all articles that attract engineering-type editors: they prefer short and concise stuff, so they will tend to split with smaller sizes. As you indicate, the forked article is not POV. --Enric Naval (talk) 01:32, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I do see what you say about the space shuttle arcticle but I was only using it as an example. I just dont understand why NPOV allows "critism" pages. Of course iff something has very little possitive merit it can be difficult but I wonder if critism pages are an example of Weasel words implying something is true even though many people would not agree. Please understand I am just suggesting a third way to remove the stigma of "critism" for a more even handed approach. Thanks for the feedback so far. PheonixRMB (talk) 13:18, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In my limited experience with disputed splits, splitting is generally supported by length or WP:Undue weight (too much weight, as measured by length versus full article) and merging supported by POV forking or undue weight (too little weight in a separate article). POV forking covers both when the minority POV is hidden away from the main article and when it is given its own article to be promoted unchecked. My opinion is that these situations are sufficiently covered by the existing policies and guidelines, but you're welcome to link other articles as possible counterexamples or for clarification. Flatscan (talk) 04:32, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
An article on criticism of something can be written neutrally just as much as an article on the subject itself. It presents the existence of criticism, states who raised it, and then covers responses or opposing views to it. Certainly, the point is not to pile on with every single negative thing ever said about it, but in many cases the criticism of the subject is just as notable as anything else - consider Criticism of Microsoft or Criticism of Wikipedia. About the only suggestion I could make would be to change the title to something like "Public and professional opinion of ..." which I think would just be at risk of inviting too much unverifiable content as people voiced their own opinion. Confusing Manifestation(Say hi!) 05:42, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Standardise navigation templates colours?
Have a look at this version of Giovanni Trapattoni page, we have red,blue,black,white,purple and green ,basicly a rainbow of of colour here. Is it time to define a standard colour (most like the pale blue) for nav boxes? Gnevin (talk) 20:17, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
For reference, see screenshot at right. My eyes! --Random832 (contribs) 20:40, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't believe so. Trappatoni is an extreme example of the multicoloured navboxes. I think it's quite appropriate that navboxes for football clubs match the colours of the club. пﮟოьεԻ57 22:12, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Trappatoni is one of many examples and to be honest it looks really,really unprofessional. A standardised colour would really help here Gnevin (talk) 22:33, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Unprofessional" is right. Actually, the first words that popped into my mind when I saw that were slightly less restrained than "unprofessional". --Craw-daddy | T | 22:43, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Eek, this reminds me of some really bad web designs from the 90's. This should not be allowed to happen IMHO. Erick880 (talk) 00:33, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps a way around it is to do this Template:British_viscounts. Alternative is to have a parameter for the colour, so in cases with multiple template they can all be made with matching colours. SunCreator (talk) 00:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A parameter to change the color on the most problematic pages would be a very good solution, IMHO, and people can still use the club colors on the default template --Enric Naval (talk) 01:36, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In my experience, people will ignore a parameter unless a Policy not even a guideline explicitly says they have to use it see WP:Flags for the amount of heel digging in against something when's it's only a guideline Gnevin (talk) 07:57, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It is not recommended that one modifies the default styles
If people would stop tarting the things up like they were circus acts we wouldn't have this problem. The standard colour should be the default, i.e. it should not be specified on a per-template basis. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:02, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The other question is - should one article really have thirteen navboxes? Combined uncollapsed, these are nearly 2600 pixels tall, at default settings at a screen width of 1280. --Random832 (contribs) 02:20, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The trouble is that are all relevant, maybe a collapsible box like {{WikiProjectBanners}},here's an example
would be helpful?Note this is just an example would need a dedicated {{Navboxes}} to do this correctly ,However the colour issue still needs sorting Gnevin (talk) 07:36, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think the colours should stay, they are the Country/Club colours... It would be much harder to disambiguate if they all had the same colours. Now I can't recall that I've been in a discussion about Manager templates, which are the once that would fill up with multiple colors, but there's obviously been discussed and "approved", probably at WP:FOOTY, Just to say I at least strongly disagree with removing the colors for the World Cup and Current templates ← chandler 13:29, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Although the colors might be familiar to those who follow football, the current design does violate several principles associated with web design, not the least of which is accessibility for the color-blind. Exactly how does color "disambiguate" the templates, besides make it much harder for one's eyes to scan them? GracenotesT§ 17:19, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My two pennies worth: we should keep the colours of club/country as they are, but also having thirteen (no doubt some will have even more) manager templates is a bit ridiculous, so I would say the collapsable box is a great idea. GiantSnowman 14:53, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I too fully support the idea of keeping the (sometimes garish) colours and making them collapsible on pages that have more than say 2 or 3 navboxes? EP 16:36, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A navigation box full of ugly navigation boxes? As far as professionalism goes, I don't see that as being much better. The fact is that trying to use team or national colors for things like this is going to look ugly. It may only hurt your eyes this much if there's 13, but just having 2 boxes that clash really bad will still look wrong and things like red text on a blue box with a white page background is going to look bad on its own no matter what.
This is two separate issues from my point of view, the colour issue and the size of 13 templates, the size issue can be resolved as above the colour needs a Guideline or policy change Gnevin (talk) 09:11, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Created {{Navboxes}},simple box takes in a title and the nav boxes and groups them Gnevin (talk) 09:48, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Why not make all navboxes blue with a white border?--Phoenix-wiki 11:13, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thats what I've been suggesting ,Is their further steps required to have this become policy or do we just continue to discuss it here? Gnevin (talk) 21:35, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is material more adequate for the relevant page on the Manual of Style --Enric Naval (talk) 14:49, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Interwiki allowable evidence of user behaviour
I've been asked by an editor to step in and defend them from attack here in English Wikipedia by another user who is making arguements based on their claimed editing pattern and blocks in Dutch Wikipedia. I've been unable to locate policies on this. The question is whether someone's repeatedly making Dutch ArbCom requests can be mentioned here in English Wikipedia as evidence for tenacious or disruptive editing - I suspect not, and clearly each wikipedia has its own policies/guidelines and administrative processes, thus greatly limiting what can be considered as precidence. But is there any formal guidence here in English Wikipedia that I can direct the 2 editors to ?
Off immediate issue, but what will happen once unified login is in place if a user is blocked from one Wikipedia language ? Will they be blocked from all logins or just for the language in question ?David RubenTalk 17:45, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Blocks are local, and even with unified login, a block on one wiki won't result an automatic block on another. EVula// talk // ☯ // 18:29, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So can one make any mention of a user's disruptive behaviour in another wiki, or is this failure to heed WP:AGF and maliceous and instead poor behaviour needs be purely established in the local English Wikipedia ? David RubenTalk 18:37, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It is all part of the same project. (1 == 2)Until 19:54, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If its relevant "He did X there, he's now doing X here" or "This is similar to what got him banned from x-wiki" then yes, that is permissible, all WMF wiki's can be referenced on en-wiki. MBisanztalk 20:00, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WP:AGF is not a blank check (my rant about AGF). Behavior on another wiki (provided that you can, indeed, verify that it is the same human being) is relevant to a discussion only in as much as the reader decides it is relevant. If someone is submitting an AfD for an article and you randomly cite a French ArbCom case involving false copyright tags, that would be rather off-topic (not to mention dickish, whereas in a discussion about an editor improperly tagging articles for speedy deletion here, any case about them doing the same thing on (for instance) the Greek Wikipedia would be relevant. It all depends on the situation, but AGF is almost certainly not a factor. EVula// talk // ☯ // 20:03, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am a fan of AGF as that often helps defuses heated discussion based on honest mistakes. BUT.... If there is a clear and undeniably record of misbehaviour of an editor (who is the same human being) on another Wiki version, this misbehaviour is relevant in discussions elsewhere because that misbehaviour can be evidence of Bad Faith (i.e. empirical evidence is stronger than a piori assumptions). Thus, yes, I agree evidence of bad faith editing can be relevant, and makes AGF irrelevant (as proven unjustified) in other projects. Arnoutf (talk) 20:26, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for everyones thoughts and the points raised :-) David RubenTalk 12:56, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
PDF
Most of the PDF files uploaded to Wikipedia are either vamispamcruftitissements or however you spell that, unencyclopedic stuff, spam, or stuff that would be better suited for Wikisource. Think we should just disable the uploading of PDF's once and for all? ViperSnake151 19:01, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Some are uploaded by people who are ignorant of policy or image format requirement, but potentially useful. The template {{BadPDF}} was apparently designed for this, but I don't know how closely the associated maintenance category is monitored. (If it's like most image maintenance categories, the answer is "not very".) Free images should be converted and moved to Commons, free text should be moved to Wikisource - that is, presuming the content itself is useful. Kellyhi! 22:01, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've been doing some work getting rid of inappropriate PDF files, but I think there's only one other person doing it. Virtually all the articles in Category:Images in the PDF format were tagged by me so I highly doubt there's anyone monitoring it. Hut 8.5 10:30, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Age
Hello. I've just been looking at talk pages, and i think that wikipedia should be limited to people in high school or above. I mean, RyRy5 was posing as an experienced user, handing out misinformation to "students" in his bureaucratic system and saying he would harass Queer Bubbles if he became an administrator. And, this Shapiros10 person went for an RfA the day after he graduated from adoption. This is stupid that we let them edit! Chris is my name (talk) 20:06, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
People that behave badly get blocked from Wikipedia, regardless of age. If you are 8 and can behave like a civilized person, and have positive things to contribute to the encyclopedia, then welcome. If you are 40 and an asshole, then you will likely be blocked. Besides, you may have not noticed this, but there is no way to check ID at the door here. We have no means of verifying anything about the person sitting at the keyboard, and if people don't anyone to know how old they are, they don't have to tell anyone... Its that simple. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 20:14, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with (the content, but not necessarily the tone of voice of) Jayron32. It is the quality of the contribution and behaviour of the editor not the age of the editor that should count Arnoutf (talk) 20:20, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is most likely trolling, considering both the tone and the three minutes between his registering[3] and his first edit.[4]EVula// talk // ☯ // 21:01, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
User blocked indef. Nakon 21:05, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I started my account when I was 10 or 11ish (and I'm only 13 now), surely restricting access by age would be discrimination and cause a lack of information on certain topics...... Dendodge.TalkHelp 12:11, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Victim Lists is an attempt by me to create community consensus on the inappropriateness of lists of victims on Wikipedia. A number of lists of non-notable victims have popped up over time, both on various event pages and as articles of their own, and I feel they are unencylopedic and are in violation of Wikipedia guidelines, particularly Wikipedia guidelines on lists and notability. The deletion discussions are often acrimonious and recently a couple were deleted, and there was a dispute over their inappropriateness and existance as memorials. I felt it would be good to get a broader community consensus on interpretation of Wikipedia guidelines as it relates to lists of non-notable victims of various events. I have never done this before and if any of you think I should post this message anywhere else (other than a few list of victims pages which I know of in particular which have been involved in deletion discussions in the past, as well as the RFC place and the relevant policy pages), let me know. Thanks for your input on the subject. Titanium Dragon (talk) 22:27, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That gives me an idea. How about a transwiki (and I'm not being sarcastic) to a Wikia website like "WikiMemorial"? This would solve the debates we have regarding posting victim lists on Wikipedia, e.g. Columbine, Virginia Tech, Titanic.--WaltCip (talk) 16:12, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, it wouldn't. People recognize Wikipedia as a major place people get information, so they keep trying to insert their favorite subject here, even if there's a more appropriate Wiki. It might reduce the numbers a bit, but it'll keep happening. -- Kesh (talk) 14:18, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WikiProject Banners
I'm trying to help out User:Wubzy and can't seem to find anything on my question. Do any WikiProjects have more than one talk page banner? My thinking is no, and only one is needed; but they seem to want to make extras. Any help? Thanks. §hep • ¡Talk to me! 06:29, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not quite sure what the requirement is, but it looks a bit strange to me. Could you post more details? In principle, each Wikiproject should have exactly one banner (for all I can see), because it's used for automatic identification of the project's articles. That doesn't mean that the template needs to look exactly the same on each page; it could be modified using parameters. See Template:WPBiography for a quite elaborate example. --B. Wolterding (talk) 14:22, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Addendum: I now found the original discussion at User talk:Wubzy#Project banners. I think what you're trying to do is a rather bad idea. If you would like a change on an edit-protected template, then first post to the talk page of that template, and get consensus for the change; once consensus is clear, an administrator will implement the change. (You can request the edit using the {{editprotected}} template.) But creating a "template fork" in order to implement a layout change seems inappropriate; it also breaks the functionality of the banner, as mentioned above. --B. Wolterding (talk) 14:59, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That was my thinking as well. I thought it looked funny for there to be more than one banner. I'll let Wubzy know they shouldn't, I was going to as soon as I saw the template, but wasn't exactly sure of policy. Thanks! §hep • ¡Talk to me! 18:25, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, I just added a new section to the Assume good faith guideline article, WP:DGF or "Demonstrate good faith". It is my belief that its content is completely in line with the spirit of the Wikipedia project which is why I added it without a preceding discussion, I was "being bold".
However, my motivation to add it is my involvement in a dispute with another user which is currently under discussion at WP:WQA, so my impartiality in this belief should definitely be examined and confirmed. I would like to invite everyone to take a look at WP:DGF, rewrite it, or even delete it if community consensus is against it. (And I do mean everyone; my opponent(s) in the dispute are in fact probably the most important individuals to voice an opinion on whether this is an appropriate addition to the guideline.)
As with changes to any guideline, anything other than wording changes for clarity and similar non-controversial changes should be posted to the discussion page first, to build consensus.
See Wikipedia talk:Assume good faith for the discussion of this change to the guideline. (The guideline itself has been reverted to its previous state, since the change was premature.) -- John Broughton(♫♫) 21:32, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
School Blocking & Group Accounts
I haven't had much experience in this area so I'm going to ask here before just changing anything. To quote WP:NOSHARE, "Sharing an account – or the password to an account – with others is not permitted, and doing so will result in the account being blocked." However, Template:Schoolblock implies that accounts can be created for class projects (which of course means the account being shared among the class). Do I need to add an exception to the no sharing rule that accounts for this, or is the template in the wrong? It's a fairly large issue here, that the template viewed on almost every block of educational IP addresses seems to completely contradict the username/account policy. Cheers —αlεx•mullεr 12:03, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I (maybe wrongly) thought that referred to an account per student...... Dendodge.TalkHelp 12:07, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, that makes more sense – but, Template:Schoolblock isn't totally clear in that case. I'm not actively subscribed to the unblock-en-l list, so not sure if there are requests made for a whole class (15/20/30) of accounts to be created —αlεx•mullεr 12:13, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I know schoolblock is a special form of IP block, where an IP is in the possession of a school. In other words it is equal to IP blocks for private users, but as schools may have good-faith need of Wiki more exaplanation, and ways how personal accounts (that can be used but not created from a blocked IP domain) can be created are given. Arnoutf (talk) 14:11, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OK, that's right; a schoolblock is a block where accounts can't be created from the IP address but registered users can still login and edit. The text in that template message has at least caused some confusion, so I'm going to post on its talk page later on to see if we can clarify it. I'd also like to clarify everything surrounding schools editing Wikipedia, as we've come across a few troubles/confusions at our school – but I'm afraid rewriting policy will have to wait until I'm free over summer :). Thanks —αlεx•mullεr 18:40, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think Wikipedia has no policies about schools editing but rather about individual editors (identified by IP or user name). Sadly schools (with a fixed IP) often have irresponsible students who abuse editing privileges; leaving no other option than blocking the IP. Arnoutf (talk) 17:55, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've boldly changed the text to read, "If editing is required for class projects, please have your teacher or network administrator contact us..." I think that makes it clearer. ·:· Will Beback·:· 23:05, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(←) Yep, I think that's clearer now... that said, I still think there needs to be more clearly defined help/policy for schools, having seen the confusion it causes first hand. That's a project right there... —Alex.Muller 12:06, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Using same spam guidelines for all media
In various place articles, to be listed, a paper (or other print media) must have its own article. This is to ensure that listing it is not merely spam. It suddenly dawns on me that all television and radio stations are listed automatically. Only the higher standard is required for print media. While I still don't want to list mere throwaways, neither should television nor radio stations with scant listeners or few hours be listed either. This needs discussion and some rationale. I would guess the same standard - no article, no listing. This will come as a great culture shock to people working on place articles, however. Student7 (talk) 12:33, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Licensed radio and TV stations are notable if they broadcast over the air and originate at least a portion of their programming schedule in their own studios. Lower power radio stations limited to a small neighborhood, such as Part 15 operations in the United States or stations with a VF# callsign in Canada, are not inherently notable, although they may be kept if some real notability can be demonstrated. Stations that only rebroadcast the signal of another station should be redirected to their programming source (e.g. CICO-TV is a redirect to TVOntario.)
I don't pay attention to media much, but I'd guess most TV and many radio stations qualify under these criteria. I don't see any mention of media in notability policy pages, but following the outcomes would seem reasonable. I agree with the spirit of Student's proposal (not to list nonnotable media), but I think we should remember that broadcasters have a different standard than do newspapers. Nyttend (talk) 13:09, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We may have the assumption that someone is listening to them. Maybe we should be more careful about low-power stations and stations who don't have figures published on listeners/watchers (Neilsen, that sort of thing).
We are currently handling repeater stations like regular stations, rightly or wrongly. The assumption is that the area in which the repeater is located is a target/host locality.Student7 (talk) 14:39, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, what are you asking about? External links to websites, or a full-of-red-links version of Honolulu's media section? Nyttend (talk) 15:24, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In the UK newspapers can be "registered as a newspaper at the post office", you can normally find this information with the publisher details. I have no idea how to register or what can be registered or what the effects of registration are. But it'd be a minimum standard to keep out most "rubbish". Dan Beale-Cocks 14:14, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think that the prodigious rate that some editors go around slapping the "Wikify" tag on articles really detracts from the time the very same editors could be using to "wikify" the same articles that they decry are "unwikified." Instead of posting "wikify," I think a good guideline would be to edit the article in question, adding wiki linques when needed. That would be more productive to the project than just posting tags.
See from this recent exchange the unhelpful nature of the "wikify" tag:
An editor posted a wikify tag on one of my articles, then I politely asked him on his talk page if he would want to help me wikify the article here: [5].
Yet a review of his user contributions regarding the period of editing between my post and his response of being "too busy" reveals little productive article-editing. see [7].
This is just one example of the overall injury described above. I think my thesis should be promulgated in a guidleline. Respectfully, JeanLatore (talk) 23:53, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The use of tagging is not just to draw the attention of editors to what needs fixing but also more to draw the attention of the reader to what assertions he/she should or shouldn't be trusting. If they were designed primarily to draw editors' attention to things that needed fixing, then the talk page would be a perfectly appropriate place for them. Since most of them are for the benefit of readers, they should stay in the article.
Fuhghettaboutit - "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Unreferenced, unverified content (which if written in any detail is always chock full of errors when actually examined to source) should not be foisted on anyone as proper content. It must not give the appearance of proper content. I think tags should be made bigger and louder: THIS ARTICLE CITES NO SOURCES AND IPSO FACTO SHOULDN'T BE RELIED ON AT ALL! I'm exxaggerating a little but it is crucial we keep these flags flying" Emphasise added.
More can be found this from last weeks discussion in (archive 43)
Lastly, look at the number of articles deleted daily, including the nominators, if they where appropriately tags some might be salvaged. SunCreator (talk) 00:49, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify, I was only talking about the "Wikify" tag (noting that the words in the article need to be wiki-linked with [ [ ] ])JeanLatore (talk) 01:03, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, thanks for that. Having followed your links posted above encountered this and this. So, I thought you where referring to tagging in general. So about wikify tagging, I don't use that tsg, but wikifying can be a bit of an art form, so can understand some people like to do that specific activity, so having the tag helps them finding appropriate articles. SunCreator (talk) 01:15, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The Wikify tag attracts certain editors who like to fix articles, as a form of relaxation/fun. If somebody doesn't like the way it looks, there are people who don't like the way articles that deviate from Wikipedia's format look. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 01:04, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: The reason that this and other similar tags exist is because of the massive influx of articles to Wikipedia that require fixing. Some editors do high speed tagging via tools so that all the articles requiring attention end up in the appropriate maintenance categories. These editors wouldn't have enough time to fix all the articles they tag themselves in the same amount of time, and the tagging itself ensures that the articles do get fixed eventually.--Dycedargж 04:21, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: I am the user that he is talking about that was "too busy". Please assume good faith. When I say I'm busy, surprisingly enough, that means that I'm actually busy. I have 2 jobs, 21 credit hours of classes, a tutoring position, and finals coming up in 2 weeks. There is a life outside of Wikipedia. I tagged your article to help protect it from getting prodded or AfD'd. It's in terrible shape and is in need of drastic reworking; I tagged it so someone watching the relevant category could help you. It's nothing against you or your article. That said, this proposal would effectively kill the improvement of Wikipedia. People would have to keep going to random pages to find ones in need of improvement rather than the system in place, and that's a terrible idea. CelarnorTalk to me 06:03, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per above - the tag helps get editors who work on categorising article involved. Categorising work that needs to be done on articles has clear advantages in terms of focusing effort. Hut 8.5 10:25, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - without prejudice to the issue at hand, not everyone enjoys wikifying articles and nobody is under any obligation to do any sort of job here (unless you're employed by the Foundation) - we are all volunteers. Some people write Featured Articles, some people fight vandals, and some wikify articles - and so on. x42bn6TalkMess 13:57, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The OP has a reasonable point - rushing through articles slapping a wikify tag is harmful to the project. If some of the people involved in speedy tagging also went through the backlog and wikified a few articles, even if they only did one per day, it'd be much more useful than tagging. And this is just talking about appropriate use of the wikify tag, add in to that poor use of that tag, and all the other tags, and there are a bunch of articles that don't need to be tagged, or only need minor fixing, but which are going to be left in a poor condition because the backlog is overwhelming. (I'm not going to fucking vote in a straw poll) Dan Beale-Cocks 14:09, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
How is it harmful? There are some people who do nothing but monitor the "Articles needing wikification category" and wikify the articles as they show up. Not tagging articles that need help in that matter only exposes one person (i.e, the person reading the article) to the fact that it is in need of help. This way, lots and lots of people get exposed to the problems with the article, and help is more likely to come around. If anything, not tagging them would be harmful to the project. CelarnorTalk to me 22:17, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But there are very many more people tagging articles than there are people fixing those articles. People think that speedy tagging is useful - it's gently useful, but it's much more useful to do a bit of work and wikify an article. Is adding [[wiki tags]] really that hard? The harm to the project comes from editors who want to become admins who are pushing up their edit count by tagging articles in the mistaken belief that it'll help at RfA, and from the attitude that tagging an article is as good as improving that article. It isn't. Dan Beale-Cocks 09:41, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You're right, it's not as helpful as actually improving the article. However, the same can be said about the vast majority of tags. In general, copyediting an article isn't that difficult. However, the articles that are written by the user in question have a lot more problems than just adding inter-wiki links. They don't even come close to obeying the manual of style; they look like class notes and require extensive copyediting as well as sources. I first came in contact with this user when List of basic tort law topics was brought up at AfD and copyedited it to save it; it took me quite a while. But I think you're wrong in your assertion that there aren't a lot of copyeditors. There's an entire category full of them that watch the "Articles needing copyeditors" and "Articles needing cleanup". Not everyone on the wiki specializes in the manual of style; myself, I'm a sourcing person. I save things from deletion at AfD. Everyone has their niche, and tags let people whose niche isn't wikification bring the fact that it needs copyediting to be a better article to the people who do specialize in that. CelarnorTalk to me 15:40, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose There are many ways in which editors can improve the encyclopedia. One (fairly easy) way to to click on "Random article", and tag that article with the ways in which it could be improved. Another (more involved) way is to go to one of various clean-up projects, and improve an article from that project's backlog. Both ways listed above are valuable to Wikipedia: the first editor adds articles to a backlog; the second editor removes them from a backlog. The length of the backlogs can make the pace frustratingm but over a long period of time, there is a net gain to the encyclopedia. Please remember that Wikipedia is a work in progress: part of this progress is identifying where our weak spots are. Bluap (talk) 14:38, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose – Even a person who knows just the basics about Wikipedia could potentially recognise a badly formatted article while navigating the mainspace and tag it as such, without necessarily being a regular editor. Tagging is something almost everybody can do, as opposed to good formatting and copy-editing. Waltham, The Duke of 22:14, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment:"Yet a review of his user contributions regarding the period of editing between my post and his response of being "too busy" reveals little productive article-editing." That doesn't mean that they are not busy, eg: i can be busy doing something but if i notice something small on a article i may still tag it, instead of wikifing it myself which because i'm doing something else like a school assigment. Peachey88(Talk Page | Contribs) 08:22, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Other suggestion Since the wikify tag is mainly to aid editors, require it to be in the talk space. Taemyr (talk) 09:34, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I have already wikified an article after seeing the wikify tag. It took more than an hour to put <nowikiwi>[[]]</nowiki> and inlining references that had the [n] part done by hand on html, they were also orphaned and required guesswork to see where they belonged to. Had the article not been tagged, I would have never taken the effort to do it. Tagging probably took less than one minute. --Enric Naval (talk) 19:31, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion has been marked as a guideline
It already was a guideline; it was changed from an "editing guideline" to a just plain guideline. That decision (which I support) can be commented on at the talk page, for those interested. -- John Broughton(♫♫) 21:26, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Let's sue vandals.
Prohibitions on "legal threats" aside, the Wikimedia Foundation should sue the worst persistent vandals. Given the prohibitions against vandalism, we could at least argue trespass to chattels, if not copyright infringement based on the creation of derivative works outside the scope of the license to edit. We could, at the very least, gain enforceable injunctive relief. bd2412T 06:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Couldn't we theoretically sue for defamation of character? Here is an example of an edit made just a moment ago; wouldn't this be a decent basis for a lawsuit? If someone were to actually say this in real life in a reputable source (which WP is seen as, no matter what we say in our disclaimer), wouldn't they be sued? GlassCobra 09:20, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
IANAL However trespass to chattels requires actual damage. If our article on the subject is to be believed that means vandalism that makes our system unavailable. The edits are within GFDL so copyright infringement would be difficult to argue. Quite a lot of the vandalism edits falls under libel, but I don't think we can sue for libel, we could at best sponsor a suit made by the subject of the libel. Taemyr (talk) 09:43, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Wikimedia foundation has no standing to sue for the libel of any third party (although such third parties definitely do have such standing). The fact that we are able to quickly repair the damage does not preclude a claim for the trespass which caused the damage and necessitated the repair. In any event, we could get injunctive relief, which would lead to monetary penalties for continued vandalism even where we bear no cost for repairing the damage. bd2412T 17:40, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
On this general topic, why is WP:Terms of Service red? I thought that that at some point before editing I had agreed to my edits be bound by the laws of Florida and suchlike. Taemyr (talk) 09:55, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
How can there be terms of service agreements when you don't need to create an account to edit? I'm not sure if this whole topic was meant to be serious. People put anything they like on here because Wikipedia invites them to, but we also have other people reverting nonsense. That is the way the system was designed to work. We made this bed, now we lie in it. I'm not blaming anyone for being frustrated at vandalism, but we can't have a practice that freely enables vandalism and then sue when it happens. I'm sure the judge would say that if Wikipedia really wanted to protect itself, there are other remedies it could have tried first, such as putting in more restrictions, or just locking up the whole site, saying the encyclopedia is done, and turn it into a static website. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 11:33, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Click-wrap contracts are generally deemed valid now - you can hold someone to agreeing to the terms of service simply by their clicking of the "Save page" button. And I doubt a judge would require us to shutter the encyclopedia to gain protection from vandals anymore than a judge would require closure of a public park prior to awarding relief against graffiti artists. bd2412T 17:44, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, um, no? People donate money to this project. I don't want my money donated to the collection of human knowledge being used to fund lawsuits against people. Besides, you'd run into a lot of problems regarding verifying the person behind the IP address is the person in question. The RIAA, whose entire existence is dedicated to suing people out of existence, is starting to run into this problem. I don't think that the Wikimedia Foundation, with its single advisor, is going to fare better. Of course, that doesn't even begin to take into account the public image issues. CelarnorTalk to me 15:50, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think, if this were somehow possible, it would be a great way to completely destroy the project. It doesn't matter who opens the door to making contributors legally liable for their edits, once the perception is there that you could actually end up in court for pressing that button at the top of the page, the vitality will go out of this endeavor. Darkspots (talk) 16:13, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I doubt that - we have vandals who make a habit of replacing entire articles with pictures of bodily functions. If we press suits only against those cases where a vandal has repeatedly returned over weeks or months to indulge the same destructive impulse, that should not give pause to the well-meaning editor who falls short of that type of nonsense. People do occasionally get sued for defamation over the internet, and that does not seem to have slowed the pace of postings to forums. bd2412T 17:40, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I sincerely doubt that we would benefit from suing vandals. First off, we would have a tough time proving damages, second we would spend more proving it than we would gain, third most vandals are either teenagers or adults with the mentality of teenagers(ie they don't have any money). (1 == 2)Until 17:45, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Anyway... there is no way we can make this stick. Which juridical system do we use... the American.... please no I am editing from the Netherlands, so you should sue me under Dutch law (if I were a vandal). Good luck with that (and other countries).... Arnoutf (talk) 18:06, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Spanish law here. You have to prove that there was actual damage --Enric Naval (talk) 19:20, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Do we even know where our worst vandals come from? Surely we've tracked that, to some degree. The Wikimedia servers are, I believe, in California now, and the damage done is on those servers, so I suppose California law would apply (unless they are still in Florida). In any event, some U.S. legal regime should apply in all cases where the servers are in the U.S. and known to be in the U.S. As for proof of damages, I do not think that will be a problem, as the edit history showing the "damaged" article (and the repair required) will be well preserved. Some U.S. courts have held that sending spam emails can constitute a trespass to the server (even though the emails are easily deleted), and vandalism is a similarly unwelcome activity. bd2412T 19:52, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Problem is that you would have to convince an American judge/jury that e.g. Chinese vandalism on Wikipedia can indeed be prosecuted within the US. And then you have to convince the Chinese government that this is indeed the case and the extradite the offender. For the Dutch case I am pretty sure we have an agreement on spamming with many countries but I seriously doubt our government would go for international treaties to limit Wikipedia vandalism (although with the current bunch you never know ;-). In brief I think this is just a waste of effort and resources of the project. Arnoutf (talk) 20:14, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Notice also that the repairs to vandalism are performed by un-paid volunteers, so they represent zero economical damage. As for damage to reputation, wikipedia ought to demonstrate that they made an effort to prevent vandalizing of the articles. Since this is wiki that needs no registration, they didn't. Wikipedia ought to semi-protect all articles and then go only after hackers that circumvened the semi-protection to edit as unregistered users. And wikipedia makes no checks of the changes made by registered users, and performs no checks on registration not even for majority of age aka legal responsability, so there would also be a problem there. --Enric Naval (talk) 21:01, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
How would that differ from vandals damaging a Habitat for Humanity project by prying boards off of a house which must be refastened, where the repairs are done by unpaid volunteers (presuming that no new materials had to be bought to undo the damage)? Neither the open nature of the project nor the ease of repair detracts from the fact that damage is cause, and it is a staple of the law that there is no wrong without a remedy. bd2412T 21:15, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Because there is no real damage here. In a Habitat for Humanity project (where such an act would be criminal vandalism), if they did sue, they would sue for cost of materials and it would have taken hours to fix so you could try for punitive damages, but if there was minimal cost to the project I doubt you would get much. The most we could sue for is bandwidth costs (probably less than a cent) and server space (a few KB of text, maybe 50 cents if it was a big article). Legal fees alone would be many times that. Mr.Z-man 21:27, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia has a substantial community of lawyers, some of whom happen to be IP specialists - I'm sure some of us (myself included) would gladly handle such a suit pro bono - whereas the defendant vandal would likely not be so lucky as to get free counsel. bd2412T 04:38, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Seeking an injunction is not the same as "suing" someone for damages. Furthermore, I think any judge would be loathe to enforce any hypothetical injunction, can you imagine the uproar that would ensue when someone got put into jail for contempt over "vandalising" wikipedia? JeanLatore (talk) 03:23, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Having personally filed lawsuits seeking both damages and injunctive relief for invasions of intellectual property rights, I can assure you that the mechanism for seeking injunctive relief entails the same kind of legal proceeding as a suit for damages. A judge is not likely to jail someone for vandalism, but they certainly may impose running fines for continued violations. Given the increasing number of judicial opinions that actually cite Wikipedia as a source of information, I think we could make a strong argument that Wikipedia has become a public resource, and that judicial enforcement to prevent vandalism would serve the public interest. bd2412T 04:38, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You shrugged me off before, but this project relies on all sorts of random people to hit that edit button and improve the encyclopedia. IP edits provide a huge percentage of the raw material for this project. Many ordinary people have a blind panic about the law and will never do anything to increase their perceived liability to getting sued. One lawsuit, one contributor sued by Wikipedia, and an enormous number of people will never contribute again.
And even if I'm only half right, the damage would be much greater than any intimidation of vandals that would result from this. Vandals are children. They don't scare that easily. Darkspots (talk) 07:20, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps, but conversely there is a large population that does not contribute because they do not take Wikipedia seriously, in part because of the level of vandalism. Maybe that will change organically, but a well-publicized lawsuit against a persistent vandal might convince academicians and professionals that the project is taking the necessary steps to deal with that problem, and is therefore worth their efforts. bd2412T 08:38, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Bold statement about academics. I think academics have much more problems with lack of discipline in using references; and non-understanding how to use references by good faith editors than reverting vandalism. After all a vandal is reverted in seconds, training proper referencing discipline may take years.... Arnoutf (talk) 09:29, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
With or without the vandals, Wikipedia will never attract significant numbers of scholars and educated people (with the OP excepted, of course). Unless order can be imposed from the top down, freeing the learned classes from the carping and petty time-wasting of the petty-minded, Wikipedia will continue to muddle about in the mediocrity that is the fate of the human race without order. JeanLatore (talk) 13:03, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Furthermore, fines will mean nothing, the large majority of americans are "judgment proof," and I'm sure an even larger percentage of "vandals" are. JeanLatore (talk) 13:03, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A more basic problem is that the Foundation disclaims in the strongest possible terms any responsibility for the content on the site (for obvious reasons) It would be pretty difficult to turn around and argue that changing that content was somehow infringing on the Foundation's rights. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 16:47, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hasn't this always been policy? I don't think that the prohibition against harassing other edits is merely for guidance, it is in fact enforced very strongly. (1 == 2)Until 18:53, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, it has never been policy - see Wikipedia:List of policies. We enforce guidelines too; that's not the distinction.
And this particular page has been reverted (by another editor); it is once again a guideline. (These things really, really should be discussed before a change is made; it's not trivial to change a guideline to be a policy.) -- John Broughton(♫♫) 14:50, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In recent books on logic, distinction is made between two orders of inquiry concerning anything. First, what is the nature of it? how did it come about? what is its constitution, origin, and history? And second, What is its importance, meaning, or significance, now that it is once here? The answer to the one question is given in an existential judgment or proposition. The answer to the other is a proposition of value, what the Germans call a Werthurtheil, or what we may, if we like, denominate a spiritual judgment. Neither judgment can be deduced immediately from the other. They proceed from diverse intellectual preoccupations, and the mind combines them only by making them first separately, and then adding them together.
It occurs to me that here at Wikipedia we are also in desperate need of separating these two orders of questions. Verifiability would be the first order and notability is the second. This entire post may be seen as jibberish to those not versed in logic but I assure you that this concept defines lines that ought to be well considered. Current Wikipedia policies and guidelines have far more than blurred the line between these two matters and I believe we should make an effort to unblur them if that is even possible at this point. -- Low Sea (talk) 20:24, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To be honest I think these two guidelines would benefit from cross-referencing. Also notability should extend beyond the article topic to any single reference/ fact in an article. This may seem harsh but I have seen many trivia, irrelevant and even fringe theories being inserted into articles that went to edit war after removal as they were "reliably referenced" (but irrelevant to the article). Not an easy issue as notability and relevance inside an article are very hard and subjective to judge. Arnoutf (talk) 20:36, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NPOV already addresses that concern more than sufficiently. --erachimatalk 07:53, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
References/notes
See for example Michelangelo. Some sentences have a reference-link (with a number). Those are listed in the "Citations" section below. There is also a "References" section - just the list of sources. But the single sentences in the article do not have to have references-link to those sources? How do we know exactly which sentence in the article is sourced and which not if the sources are for the whole article. How can we recognize if one sentence is an original research? LYKANTROP 21:14, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Basically, every new fact introduced in the text needs an inline citation. I am sure this is treated in detail in WP:Verifiability. If not to your satisfaction, it should be discussed there. Arnoutf (talk) 21:33, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So it would be better of all the references would be used for inline citations for every single sentence?-- LYKANTROP 07:00, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure I understand your question, but the answer is probably no. "His father, Lodovico di Leonardo di Buonarroti di Simoni, was the resident magistrate in Caprese and podestà of Chiusi. His mother was Francesca di Neri del Miniato di Siena.[Reference]" That's all referenced to one source, so it wouldn't make sense to duplicate the reference after each sentence. There are other parts where one reference per paragraph might do, if what's in the paragraph is covered by a single reference. In other cases - "X says A,[ref for where X says A] but Y says B.[ref for where Y says B] - clauses in a sentence might have different references, especially if references are reused. Unless the footnotes say or imply otherwise, everything in the text between reference N-1 and reference N should be covered by whatever reference N cites. Angus McLellan(Talk) 11:07, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, a problem then arises if a later editor inserts a sentence or comment within that sourced paragraph, or otherwise rejigs the content. But there is no straight answer to your dilemma, Lykantrop, for wikipedians all have differing views of the level of citation required. Medieval cuisine, for example, is a Featured article yet contains relatively few inline cites. The Military history WikiProject, on the other hand, recommends that "articles be thoroughly – even exhaustively – cited." My practice is to err on the side of over-citing rather than under-citing; under-citing can be problematic; over-citing can be ignored by uninterested parties. Gwinva (talk) 11:47, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To return to the original question - what you're looking at is a hybrid Harvard-citations approach for sources. The "References" section is NOT for sources that cover the entire article. It's there because the inline citations are briefer (they aren't full citations), and rely on the content of the References section to provide a full cite for each footnote. In such a case, a sentence that is not sourced, and is not in a paragraph that is sourced, needs an inline citation (or its paragraph does, as discussed above.)
A better example of general references covering everything in an article is George Washington in the French and Indian War. Here there are ten references cited (books), with none of the text in the article having in-line citations. The feeling (I'm guessing) is that it isn't worth doing the in-line stuff because (a) pretty much anything in the article can be found in any and all of the references; and (b) nothing in the article is controversial. -- John Broughton(♫♫) 14:42, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Self-contradictory authority
Wikipedia quite properly relies on accepted authorities for its content. But what should be done when such an authority contradicts itself?
I give the example of the Wiki article “Passive smoking”.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_smoking#cite_note-118)
There reference is made to a study conducted for the World Health Organisation by Boffetta et al
119^ Boffetta P, Agudo A, Ahrens W, et al (1998). "Multicenter case-control study of exposure to environmental tobacco smoke and lung cancer in Europe". J. Natl. Cancer Inst. 90 (19): 1440-50. PMID 9776409
Boffetta et al say in the abstract of their paper
“RESULTS: ETS exposure during childhood was not associated with an increased risk of lung cancer (odds ratio [OR] for ever exposure = 0.78; 95% confidence interval [CI] = 0.64-0.96).”
and
“CONCLUSIONS: Our results indicate no association between childhood exposure to ETS and lung cancer risk.”
These two statements are contradictory. The first says in numbers that exposure to passive smoking is associated with a statistically significant reduced risk of developing lung cancer, the second says in words that no such association was found.
I attempted to correct the Wiki article by adding the relevant numerical part of the Boffetta abstract and was suspended.
What should be done when an authority contradicts itself?RayJohnstone (talk) 07:29, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You go with the words, since that is where they interpreted their data. If you can cite some other published source saying that their data suggests a different conclusion than that they themselves drew, then you may include that statement, but without the citation it's OR to claim that they're self-contradictory when they interpret their own numbers. --erachimatalk 07:48, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So if the abstract to a paper by an authority reads
"RESULTS:
x = y
CONCLUSIONS: We found that x does not equal y"
we should ignore the contradiction.
I don't think that is satisfactory. In those very rare cases where this happens, should
Wikipedia really perpetuate a clear falsity?RayJohnstone (talk) 07:56, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Plus the way i read it: "ETS exposure during childhood was not associated with an increased risk of lung cancer (odds ratio [OR] for ever exposure = 0.78; 95% confidence interval [CI] = 0.64-0.96)." is that the control group was (slightly) more likely to have exposure in childhood than the smoker group. All the measures are close to a statistical draw anyway, which is why they reported no association. But in this particular case, it appears that those who suffered from lung cancer were less likely to have been exposed in childhood to ETS... albeit by a small factor.
But to agree with the main point... you need to assume that published research accurately reports their conclusions... but the conclusions from different scholarly work doesn't necessarily need to agree. --Marcinjeske (talk) 08:06, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(ec)Interesting. Yes, the numbers do seem to indicate that childhood exposure to passive smoking actually REDUCES the risk of developing cancer. And it is statistically significant. Out of curiosity, I glanced through your talk page discussion on the topic. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anyone dispute your interpretation of the numbers. The discussion seemed to be more about giving undue weight to one study when multiple other studies showed different results. And secondly, that you were doing original research by intrepreting the numbers rather than relying on the stated conclusion.
To answer your more general question (outside the context of this particular example) I would say that we probably should rely on stated conclusions even if the authors seem to contradict their own data. I've seen too many examples of WP editors spinning a source to support their own POV when they should use the words of the source itself. This would avoid problems of original research or synthesis and improve verifiability. Remember, that the standard for inclusion is "verifiability, not truth." Now if you had a reliable source that reported your (correct) interpretation of the numbers, you could include it, subject to undue weight. Sbowers3 (talk) 08:30, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Which Bible version to use in articles?
Hi all,
I've looked all over the MoS and this Village pump for policy on which English version of the ChristianBible should be used in articles. My understanding is that the NIV is the current scholarly consensus of the Bible in English. So... what next? --Shirt58 (talk) 12:47, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The King James Version, American Standard Version, and World English Bible are all public domain, so I think any of those three is fine. Unless there is a compelling reason to prefer one over the other (ie, a verse missing from a modern translation or old English in the KJV that is no longer understandable) then I think we should use the same rule we use for British vs American spelling - use whatever the person who started the article used. Wikisource has a public domain Bible translation but I would strongly advise against using it (and it should be removed anywhere that it is being used) - it does not meet Wikipedia's core content policies like verifiability. I don't think there is any scholarly consensus for the NIV. The New Testament class that I took at Virginia Tech used the NRSV. In many Christian circles, the KJV is still preferred. But regardless of preferences, I think we should definitely use a PD version for copyright reasons. WP:FAIR says that we should not use non-free media when a free equivalent is available and the copyright statement in the NIV [8] says that you may not use more than 500 verses in your work. So if Wikipedia were to quote more than 500 NIV verses in such a way that would not qualify for fair use (pretty much a certainty if we are quoting it frequently), then we would be in violation. --B (talk) 12:57, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The last thing we need is another one-size-fits-all policy on something that should be a matter of editorial discretion and common sense. This question should be worked out by the editors on each article. I would assume that the New American Bible or New Jerusalem Bible would be used in Catholicism-related articles and the King James Version would be used where the topic was the Bible's effect on the English language, for example. Like B, I'm unaware of any "scholarly consensus" for the NIV. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 16:15, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with both above. Different versions may be most appropriate for different articles - King James in literary and many historical articles, an English Vulgate for medieval art and history, and so on. Johnbod (talk) 16:31, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
NIV tends to be conservative. It's not outright advocacy, but when there are two possibilities for a translation they tend to choose the more conservative one. NRSV is closer to a literal translation. Raymond Arritt (talk) 16:40, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've always preferred the NRSV for precisely that reason. When they do make a controversial decision (ie. "brothers and sisters" rather than just "brothers"), it's got footnotes explaining the discrepancy. Even if you consider the translation biased, you can't fault them for pointing out exactly what the changes were. -- Kesh (talk) 20:34, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The NAB and NJB, I would assume, are both still under copyright. There's nothing magical about the Bible that makes it immune from our non-free content policy. If a free version would have the same effect, we use it. So if there is a Catholic doctrine where the NAB expresses that doctrine in a different way than the KJV and that difference is significant to the article, then we can use the NAB under a claim of fair use. But if using a free replacement would not hurt a reader's understanding of the topic, then we should use one of the three public domain translations. --B (talk) 23:46, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As pointed out by others, this really does seem to be an issue best resolved on the talkpage of individual articles. Where possible other editors should follow the preference of the original author, just as we do elsewhere, unless there is a compelling reason to use a different version. Doc Tropics 20:47, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Quotes from copyrighted Bible translations should be treated in the same manner as any direct quotes used in Wikipedia: as long as the quotes used are short, and fully referenced with publication details, then there should be no problem. Gwinva (talk) 00:04, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes and no. With other copyrighted publications, there is no free equivalent that would serve the same purpose. But with Bible translations, there are a gracious plenty to choose from. So using a non-free Bible translation is more analogous to using a CC-BY-NC-ND photo. Can we do it and get by with it? Yes, but we choose not to because our non-free content policy is intentionally more restrictive than it has to be. --B (talk) 01:14, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with B, some preference should be given to a free (public domain) translation where available. If someone really wanted to get one of the modern translations available for use, it might be possible, but probably not as they all still have commercial value. Another free translation is the Douay-Rheims Bible, a Catholic translation of an age comparable to the KJV, that was updated in the 1752 Challoner's revision, highly respected and also public domain. A more modern Catholic translation was published in 1936, but won't be public domain for a few more years; another version that is being translated now with copyright waived is not yet complete. In fact, every translation listed at Modern English Bible translations#18th and 19th century translations would also be available, as would a few further down the page. What I don't know of are any Orthodox Christian translations into English that are public domain. A few Jewish translations are also now public domain, see Jewish English Bible translations and look at the earlier ones - but I don't know of any from the Orthodox branch of Judaism. It should only rarely be necessary to use non-free versions in a minority of cases - where distinctive translations for modern denominations/sects/cults, Orthodox Judaism, or Orthodox Christianity are needed for the specific article. But there are so many public domain choices available that the editors of each article can choose as appropriate for that article. GRBerry 03:17, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Inaccurate information from sources.
Sorry if the title isn't very useful, I cannot think of a concise way to describe the concept I am trying to put across (if of course you can think of a better phrasing, feel free to change the title).
Anyway, I was looking at Jim Davidson (comedian) earlier, and noted the paragraph in the article about his heckler at a live show. Whilst I'm fairly certain I remember the incident in question (but not the actual reference), the correct term for a Leader in the Scout Association in the UK (where the incident, the source and the subject are all based) is Scout Leader, and has been for around 40 years, long before the incident took place. Should the correct term be used or the one used in the original reference (which ironically is no longer at the link supplied, but that's not important in my opinion)? Thoughts welcome.
Correct it to 'Scout leader' but say you've changed it in the relevant reference comment. SunCreator (talk) 14:26, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have found the original reference, which does not mention a Scout leader at all, nor does it mention some of the other detail in the paragraph. I have amended the article accordingly, and noted such on the talk page. I would add that The Sun is not in my opinion, a reliable source for anything. The anon questioner is quite right about the correct term being "Scout leader". DuncanHill (talk) 15:01, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Valid points - thanks DuncanHill and SunCreator. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. Talking hypothetically, I guess, if the original source was a reliable source in all other aspects, say for instance (I don't know if it's considered any more reliable than The Sun), if a BBC report on the same incident referred to a Scoutmaster, and that was the reference used to back up the statement (and for whatever reason a satisfactory article referring to Scout Leader could not be found), would using the reference and referring to Scout Leader in the main-text be original research, as it is not perhaps immediately obvious to Joe Public that Leader, rather than Master is the correct suffix. All assuming that the sentences "needed" to be in the article, of course. 86.130.133.64 (talk) 16:49, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To be honest that situation sounds fairly hypothetical as it entails a combination of 1) A mistake by a reliable source - which does not happen all that often 2) No verifiable evidence to show that the reliable source made indeed a mistake - This is even more unlikely; as there should be many materials to show just that. I would say that if there is indeed no evidence the reliable source is at fault, then we should stick with the source. But we can probably deal with that on a case-by-case basis as I think this is very very rare occurrence. Arnoutf (talk) 16:55, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
While it turns out that this specific instance is a moot point, in general, unless you are quoting a source, you can naturally rephrase and use synonyms based on what the source says, assuming you do not change the meaning. In this case, Scout leader and Scout master mean essentially the same thing (in the context of the claim), a person in charge of scouts. Where we might get into trouble would be having the source say "spouse" and the article say husband (when we do not know that the spouse is a husband). The goal is to accurately inform the reader... so if the difference is meaningful in the context of the article, we should follow the source. On the other hand, if the article already talks about Scout Masters, there is benefit to consistent use of that term. --Marcinjeske (talk) 04:33, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Question about following WP:COI and WP: SOCK while creating secondary account to make suggestions about clients
Hi, I've been a fairly constant editor since July 2006, starting with small fixes and eventually creating new articles of my own. In August of last year I came to the Village pump to find an editor willing to help improve and eventually approve an article about my employer, New Media Strategies.
Now, NMS is not a PR firm per se, but it's close enough. We do represent clients online. Lately I've seen instances on Wikipedia where pages about clients of NMS, in particular forthcoming movies from Disney, include incorrect or incomplete information. I have studied WP:COI, swear by WP:NPOV, have read Jimmy Wales' advice for PR firms and am content to limit my involvement on these subjects to discussions in WikiProject and Talk page areas; I am fairly sure this is not controversial.
Here's the bigger question: In order to do so, I would like to create a second account to be used only for discussing such articles, and never for making direct edits to the mainspace, so I can continue to edit for fun using my primary account. I have read WP:SOCK and am fairly sure that section 2.2.1 allows this, so long as my main account and this secondary count do not cross paths or edit related pages. This secondary account would not be involved in discussions on the NMS page as I have been.
Do others agree that I am reading this correctly? I have read much about the cautionary tale of MyWikiBiz and would certainly like to avoid that mess. And I figured my questions have to do with interpretations of policies, so this is the best place to ask. Thoughts? WWB (talk) 14:52, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think an editor should be allowed to be paid to write and edit as long as their content is up to standard and said "paid for" edits are not treated any differently than other edits. Anything can be edited and deleted so as long as the buyer/payor/client realises the risks inherent in paying someone to write on a wiki, everything should be fine. 72.151.133.46 (talk) 15:20, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sympathetic to that point of view, 72.151.133.46, but Wikipedia has existing policies and understandably wants to avoid having Wikipedia become another tool in a PR agent's arsenal. However, I believe there are also circumstances where nobody will speak up about an issue unless someone who has a conflict-of-interest points it out. Hence my request that someone with more experience on Wikipedia weigh in here. WWB (talk) 15:29, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear, you propose the use of two accounts:
An account clearly identified as belonging to an NMS employee. This account would be used to propose and discuss articles on article talk pages and WikiProjects related to NMS' clients and business. It would not be used to edit article pages.
Your existing, main account. This account does not (and would not) edit articles related to NMS' clients or business, or anywhere that a conflict of interest might be perceived.
To protect your privacy, there would be no on-wiki indication that these two accounts are related. Neither account would ever edit the same pages or participate in the same discussions as the other.
If those conditions are met, I see no problem with the use of a secondary 'work-related' account. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:43, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the feedback. A couple questions:
As noted, I have used my primary account to propose a page for NMS. From here on, do you recommend I cease any/all comment on the NMS page using this primary account (WWB) and carry that out using the secondary, NMS business account? That would make sense to me.
Is it important there be no connection at all? It was my intention that upon creating the secondary account, I would link back to the primary account and note that I am the same person but the accounts are used for different purposes. To me this seems like a prudent act of full disclosure, but if I am missing a guideline, please let me know.
Let me know. Much appreciated. WWB (talk) 15:56, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If you see no problem with linking the two accounts, there certainly is no policy or guideline that says that you should not. My reading of WP:SOCK is that such linking is in fact encouraged; that's why there are templates in the Alternative account notification section of the policy. -- John Broughton(♫♫) 16:06, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If the two accounts are going to link to each other on the respective user pages, I see no need for you to bother having a separate account. When I worked with User:WWB as he was developing the article on New Media Strategies he carefully observed our COI rules. However WWB is now clearly a business-related account, due to his edit history. I don't see why a separate business-related account would be needed, or even helpful, since you fully identify yourself on your current user page. If you wanted to simply use the WWB account to edit or comment on articles relating to your PR firm's clients that is fine provided you carefully observe the WP:COI guideline, which is what you've been doing anyway. It would also be easier for us to keep track of, since a fully-identified account poses fewer questions. When you participate on the Talk page of one of your client's articles, you should explain your affiliation so the local editors are aware. EdJohnston (talk) 16:15, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, John and Ed. As noted above, my preference is to set up two accounts -- keeping this one as a personal account for editing on subjects of my interest, and the second one for making suggestions on subjects of interest to my company. Have I passed a "point of no return" because of that article? Are there any guidelines that speak to this? Are there any more specific guidelines about any of this beyond what's in WP:COI? WWB (talk) 17:10, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, while we have a lot of rules here, they certainly don't cover every possible set of circumstances (thankfully). I don't think there is such a thing as a "point of no return"; the philosophy here is pretty much that if you're contributing constructively to Wikipedia, you're presumed to not need to ask permission to do things that aren't ordinary. I suggest that you simply note on your user page that up to (such and such date), the account was used for X and Y, and after that date, it is being only used for Y, with stuff X now being done via new account Z. -- John Broughton(♫♫) 18:41, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Accounts that appear, based on their edit history, to exist for the sole or primary purpose of promoting a person, company, product, service, or organization in apparent violation of Conflict of interest or anti-spam guidelines.
That sounds like a good way to do it, per John Broughton's latest advice above. Later today I'll set up the secondary account and include a note on the user page of this account, and replace the X, Y and Z with the specifics. Thank you everyone for your advice. WWB (talk) 19:00, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think, to emphasize, that the key is disclosure. The whole problem with sock puppets is that it is someone using multiple accounts to deceptively create the impression that multiple, independent people are editing when in fact there is but one. A clear defense for an accusation of sock puppetry (besides not editing in a manner that seems coordinated) is clear, prominent disclosures on the User pages of both. "This account and the other account are used by the same person. I use this account for my edits as a regular person, and the other account for providing information on the talk pages of articles about companies which pay me for public relations services. If you have concerns about WP:SOCK or the nature of the edits I perform, please let me know." You can of course phrase that much better... but also briefly explain why you decided to have another account and the scope of the edits that account will perform.
You may get a few editor who may scrutinize your edits on both accounts more closely because of this... but as long as you follow your self imposed limitations and have full disclosure... I can see no way for someone to fault you. --Marcinjeske (talk) 10:47, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with all the above. To close the loop, my new account is NMS Bill. Both accounts now link each other and explain the situation in similar terms to yours. And a little extra scrutiny is no problem at all. Thanks again. WWB (talk) 14:14, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Due to some recent news articles about this project and threats of violence, I would like to solicit and invite opinions/discussion on the talk page. Bstone (talk) 17:04, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Portal space policies
Does content in Portals fall under the same policies as content in main (article) space? Also, how do policies affect whether or not a topic should be associated with a given portal theme? - Keith D. Tyler¶ 00:30, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am wanting to get some feedback on here, but for the past week or so, I've been watching the WP:AN/I page just to see what's going on. And several times there have been threads such as "I think this needs to be oversighted" or "Should this be oversighted?" I feel that this causes more users to be able to look at the specified edit which contains personal information and increases the likelihood of information within that edit being used maliciously. So I am proposing a guideline/policy that any and all issues about Oversight should be sent directly to the email instead of posting a thread about it. I know it may seem like a minor thing, but it increases the amount of views that the edit recieves and thus increases the likelihood of stolen information. So that is my two cents. </first village pump edit ever> <3TinkleheimerTALK!! 03:50, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) I agree in principle. The trouble is that most users making these posts to ANI aren't aware of the existing means of requesting oversight (in many cases, I find they're not even aware of the oversight mechanism), so changing policy is unlikely the change their behaviour. Besides that, at least when things like that are reported to ANI the edits are likely to be deleted (though not oversighted) quickly, where e-mailing oversighters might leave the edits available to all users for longer. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 03:58, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I just now realized it does say do not post requests for Oversight on the An/i page. I want to request or get other opinons on making a warning tempate for users who go against that. And/or are we allowed to revert all Request for Oversight edits on AN/I? <3TinkleheimerTALK!! 03:57, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The most sensible thing might well be to revert or blank the request from the page and send it to the oversighters by e-mail yourself. Note what you're doing in the edit summary, so that other well-meaning editors won't restore it. If you happen to catch the request early, it might even be possible to have the request itself also oversighted, but I'd suspect just blanking would be enough to eliminate most of the extra exposure. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 04:48, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And that's what I most recently did when I came upon such an edit. Stifle (talk) 10:40, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The recent departure of User:Newyorkbrad raises issues of how Wikipedia editors can preserve their privacy, and what (if any) response should be made when editors' personal information is posted off-wiki. Brad has asked that the particulars of his case not be discussed, but there is a general concern as well. This discussion is moved from Newyorkbrad's talk page, although it might be better as a centralized discussion, if someone wants to set it up.
More secrecy, more anonymity
I have already posted, and I will eventually put up for a vote, that your situation should be told at all the Meet-Ups, and that should be severe limits on photography and recording at all Wikimedia events, including Wikimania. I will pursue ways to make the site more anonymous and secret. There are some editors on this site that I think many of us feel deserve to be targeted for their problematic editing styles (or admin decisions). You are clearly not one of them. --David Shankbone 15:13, 29 April 2008 (UTC) --David[reply]
People should be warned of the dangers of using their real name as user name and of the consequences of posting personal info on their user page. Also, people should choose a user name they don't use on other sites. Images depicting users should be speedied, possibly by stewards, regardless of what wiki they are on if anyone depicted in them wishes so. Educating people together with severe and non-debatable consequences in case of violations of these restrictions on images would at least be a step in the right direction. EconomicsGuy (talk) 18:52, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
On the contrary; with all due respect to the above post, I suggest that "people" should understand that leaders of any organization, such as the one herein, including administrators and arbcom. members, that, in fact, choose to participate in same, and as such, should be willing and able to share their real life identities with the world at large; expect to have their real life world exposed as a matter of transparency and due course. The idea that everyone can and/or should edit as anonymous or pseudonymous, is quite frankly, absurd, and will not work in the real world...within the context of 21st century law and order. It is unfortunate, in my opinion; for Wikipedia, that NYB has chosen to not edit as himself, the real life person. Cheers! 12.35.96.66 (talk) 19:52, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think we have to go beyond that. Let's face it, these people are engaging in criminal harassment - they should be made to pay the consequences. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:48, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As an editor using real name, and a target of quite a few harassment campaigns, I believe that the only way to deal with it is to oppose anonymity and support disclosure of real name and credentials - combined, of course, with being very harsh on editors who engage in harassment. Editors who reveal their real name should be protected from slander/stalking/etc. no less then subjects of WP:LIVING policy.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:24, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Piotrus, many of us elect to use pseudonyms because of threats and harassment that come from off-wiki sources. There is nothing that Wikipedia or the Wikimedia Foundation can do to stop that, particularly if there is no activity involving their sites. They can't indefinitely block or ban people in the real world. There are alternative venues that require verified names and credentials; for some of us, they are not an option. Risker (talk) 22:39, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fortunate to be in a situation where I don't need to be concerned that my employer knows about my postings (I'm self-employed now, and worked for a local government previously). And I don't happen to edit articles like sex and others which - for better or worse - are appropriate for Wikipedia, but nevertheless are disapproved of by a significant number of people. I mention this because other editors are not so fortunate. We all have different circumstances. If Wikipedia were to insist on full disclosure of names (and thus to make it easier to identify individual's home address, employer, etc. - particularly for those with less common names) - then there certainly would be fewer constructive editors. And without a major infrastructure to truly verify identities, the trolls and vandals would just make up names - so we wouldn't see any less of that. In short, as much as it would be nice to live in a world where harassment doesn't exist, the reality is that it does, and there are good reasons - for the sake of the project, not just for contributors - why we should not require real name user accounts. -- John Broughton(♫♫) 22:52, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Brad helped me a lot when I was the subject of harrassment with an editor posting details of my birth place, date, etc, and my mother's maiden name and other family details. My somewhat unusual name had helped this editor do this. It was done in an attempt to silence me in some debate ! was having with the user concerned. In these cases, I would favour harsh measures being taken against those doing the harrassment by wikipedia. DDStretch (talk) 07:11, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Guys, can you please explained me what happened? NYB didn't used his real name as user name. What happened? Can anybody explain this to me? Please reply on my talk page or send me an email. Regards, Masterpiece2000 (talk) 08:50, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I agree with User:David Shankbone. There should be severe limits on photography and recording at all Wikimedia events, including Wikimania. This is a very sad and unfortunate event. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 09:13, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Man oh man do I super not agree with this proposal. Limits on photography and recording at Wikimedia events? What is this, the CIA? It's hard to conjure a suggestion more antithetical to the idea of free, unrestricted information. I've been a victim of off-site harassment via my personal info (thanks Wikipedia Review jerks!), and yeah, it sucks. But you know what? You want to protect your identity? Don't make it known at public events. Barring photography at Wiki events isn't privacy it's secrecy. Ford MF (talk) 22:58, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It is more important that we avoid future Newyorkbrad situations by discussing it here, then it is to have some misguided "Honor Newyorkbrad" removal of legitimate discussion over privacy and anonymity. I think removing references to specifics is one thing, removing discussion about the problem Newyorkbrad faced can only hurt the community. Newyorkbrad is gone. But the Talk page is open to everyone - this is a long-standing community consensus. --David Shankbone 15:41, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, but perhaps a special page should be created for the purpose. Giano (talk) 15:50, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's a legitimate sentiment, Giano, but right now this is the page that has the attention, and the issue is bigger than NYB. We can't get him back...I think referencing the old asshole who did this and the site that gave him a voice to threaten and extort (in a non-legal sense) NYB is wrong - but there are fundamental problems here. The do-nothing Wikimedia Foundation is clearly never going to address them. I just think this is the right forum (for now) to discuss the issues at the heart of this. --David Shankbone 16:09, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Out of respect for Newyorkbrad we shouldn't be having this debate here. This is a much needed debate and a lot of good ideas are being discussed but this isn't the place. This is his talk page and he makes the rules. If he doesn't want it here we'll need to move the debate somewhere else. EconomicsGuy (talk) 18:36, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Out of no disrespect to Newyorkbrad, it has never been the case that people get make the rules on their Talk pages. --David Shankbone 19:38, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Policy is impossible to enforce off-wiki, but this certainly will lend to a hard-line policy that only Wikipedians can post photos of themselves, on this website. Along with all the usual warnings about safety, security, and privacy. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 15:52, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We really need to figure out a way to get all the Meet-Ups and Wikimedia events to illustrate the problems with photography and recording. I admit, I originally liked the idea of doing portraits of Wikipedians, and started that at the New York picnic. I've had my head so buried in the content I produce, that I rarely know what is going on around here - both the dangers to the editors, and the mess that has become our BLP situation (that too few of us want to address!). There are two things that each Meet-Up needs to address: The Newyorkbrad example, and the BLP problems. Since I interact with a lot of notable and media people through my content work here, I know what a problem our BLP issue has become. We have too many armchair editors who simply don't care. But the first issue is making sure a Newyorkbrad situation doesn't happen again. --David Shankbone 15:58, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Should Wikipedians have special rights the rest of the world doesn't have? We go around taking pictures of notable non-Wikipedian people all the time (you've done a huge amount of it, and I've done some too) and posting them. I bring my camera to (non-Wikipedia-related) conventions I attend, such as the Mensa Annual Gathering, in the hopes of getting shots of people who have WP bios who are attendees / presenters / panelists there. *Dan T.* (talk) 12:36, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict response to Lawrence) I'm not sure that we can create such a policy, based on the current problems regarding policy that you already know about. And what would we do about my user page showing a photo with caption of "me and KillerChihuahua (real name - Clark Kent) swilling some beer at Larry's Place"? Maybe instead anyone could be allowed to request the removal of any reference to themselves, by photo or name, from any page in wikipedia, including other users' userpages would be better. John Carter (talk) 16:03, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
!!! Thats not how it works. If you post someone's real name or IRL info you already broke rules--you don't remove it WHEN they ask. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 16:07, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OK, if name is already excluded, limit it only to photos. I'm thinking in particular of the photo on User:Kirill Lokshin's page and any others which might exist like it. I can't imagine that in this particular case he didn't think to get permission in advance from each individual in that particular instance, but in other instances that might not be the case. John Carter (talk) 16:12, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A policy like this is simple. If Shankbone's real name is "Jerry Seinfeld", I'm not allowed to ever utter that on here in reference to him. Why would I be allowed however to post up any photo of Jerry without his explicit permission ahead of time...? Lawrence Cohen § t/e 16:06, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There needs to be a way that when people register they are given suggestions. I agree with Lawrence - the sloppiness of wanting to have photos up of each other is what caused this problem (and arguably, it could have been my photo of NYB). What needs to happen is the word should be spread. We have to let other people know that there are people out there who want to hurt them. But it's a two-sided coin. We have to address the BLP problem and stop the anonymous IP editing of BLPs - damn our "open editing" ethos when it comes to people's lives and reputations. We should be better than that. --David Shankbone 16:11, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I must admit, I've considered going to some local meetups, but one of the things that made me pause and reconsider (even before this happened) was seeing all those photos around. I thought to myself: "Hang on. I don't want to end up in the background, or even foreground, of one of those pictures." I disagree, though, that this talk page is right place to discuss this. I think a link to somewhere else is sufficient. I'm still wondering how the Signpost (and indeed other internal news outlets) will cover this. After a bit of back and forth, Ral has posted this. But I agree, as long as explicit references to details are avoided, the general issues and possible solutions, need to be discussed. Carcharoth (talk) 17:10, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We should encourage greater openness not greater secrecy amongst our editors. Thanks, SqueakBox 20:20, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with that myself; if you're open about who you are (as I am), then by definition you can't get "outed". *Dan T.* (talk) 02:04, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Those who don't learn from history...
You all know how it goes. I have no idea what happened to Newyorkbrad, but I am concerned with three issues.
First: if what happened to him can happen to other editors and has implications for our policies (as the rumor mill indicates), it should be discussed just as Essjay incident was. I gather something bad has happened to Newyorkbrad, my condolences - but the remaining editors have the right to know the situation, so they can prevent it from repeating (to themselves, to others).
Second: the censorship of the very news of this incident (from the AN pages, from the Signpost tip line, and likely other places) is hardly befitting an open community. At the very list those pages should contain a note that "Newyorkbrad incident" should be discussed at a centralized page (ex. here). Continued removal of all references to it looks bad - just as all censorship does, anywhere, anywhen.
Third. Currently, it is evident there is a minority of editors who know what's going on (and who censor the discussions) and the majority who don't and who fuel the rumor mills. This, of course, will not only lead to more speculations about cabal and whatsnot, but will create various theories, on and off wiki discussions, feeding on each other, blowing this incident out of proportions and making Newyorkbrad (in)famous - something I gather he would like to avoid (need I remind you that the best way to increase popularity of something is to try to censor it?). This can still be ended if the censorship stops and an official notice is released, along the lines 'former ArbCom member resigns due to...'. The sooner this happens, the sooner popular interest in this will die down. The later this happens, the larger this wikidramu will grow.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:40, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is, of course, quite different from the Essjay case. There are no suggestions that Brad misrepresented himself, nor are his on-wiki actions or contributions being questioned. He has decided to retire to protect the privacy of himself and those close to him. If you want to talk in general terms about how to maintain one's privacy, and what the community's response should be (if any) to off-wiki disclosures of identity, then by all means, have a discussion. The particulars of Brad's case do not have to be a part of the discussion, and he has asked that they not be. I suspect he will tell you privately if you email him, but he does not want the particulars of his case to be a focal point of unnecessary and counterproductive wikidrama. Thatcher 19:50, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(re to Piotrus, edit conflict)I agree with much of this post in its sincerity and articulation, Piotrus, with exception to the use of the word "censorship". I don't believe anyone is being censored in a strict sense. A wikipedian user, albeit a high profile one, has decided to leave for reasons he prefers not to have on Wiki. This is a user request, not censorship. Arguing that "the rumor mills" will continue until the "few that know" tell the "many that don't" what's going on is rather oblique, and rather selfish, and rather inaccurate. I completely and fully respect, (as I'm confident that you do as well) NYB's reasons for leaving, be they whatever they are, in or out of his control. He's gone for the time being, that is terribly unnfortunate. His departure could/should/might/might not lead to some fundamental privacy/security changes. But arguing here that you have some "right" to know what happened under the overused and mis-cited guise of "I'm being censored" is illfounded. I respect your edits, Piotrus. You are an asset to Wikipedia. If/when this situation presents itself to you, your Wikipedian activity, and your explicit wishes to go away quietly, I would expect the same courtesy would be given to you, as you would expect, or perhaps demand. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 19:52, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(and in the interests of disclosure, I have no freekin clue what's going on either.) Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 19:55, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Someone posted his real name. That's about it. -- Ned Scott 21:42, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
BLP crossfire, very depressing but IMO we should try to fix the BLP problem. Thanks, SqueakBox 21:46, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
@Ned: Its significantly more than that. Mr.Z-man 01:30, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
He left after an individual notorious for outing Wikipedia administrators who prefer to remain anonymous determined his identity and employer and made this information public. It is believed that his identity was compromised through a combination of information he had revealed about his location and occupation, and a photo taken at a meetup. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 21:53, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Again, I'll reiterate, whatever happened, however unfortunate, happened. Tis a real shame, and definitely a call for more security for wiki editors, my anonymous self included. It is therefore, not censorship to remove commentary that NYB himself wants to stay off wiki. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 21:58, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You are drawing conclusions based on the incident but not necessarily the right conclusions. What is tragic is that NYB got caught in the crossfire. The issue we need to address is not greater security and anonymity for our editors, it is how we treat our BLP articles for people who object tot heir articles. Those who militantly oppose a sensible BLP solution are adding to the problem, what I dislike is that NYB never added to the BLP problem. Thanks, SqueakBox 22:06, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As long as Wikipedia remains influential, there will be people who seek to influence and undermine our work, regardless of whether we have BLP solution that you consider sensible. I have examples. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 22:26, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
yes but its the BLP issues that caused the problem here and NYB was caught in the crossfire not for his attitude to BLP but because he has a reputation, just like those affected by BLP but not like every wikipedian. Trying to encourage anonymity is exacerbating not resolving the fundamental problem. And I don't believe there are issues more important than BLP, and I have plenty of examples. Thanks, SqueakBox 22:30, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I couldn't disagree more. Trying to blame the BLP problem for the antics of a certain individual is silly. That's not the root issue. If it were not perceived BLP issues, it would be something else entirely. It's the blackmailing and threats that have to stop. Enigmamessage 22:34, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well I strongly disagree up to a point. I am here like everyone else because I feel a sense of outrage at what has happened to NYB. But he was targeted because he was notable, which is what various folk feel is happening to them in their BLP articles that they object to. And I think the bad behaviour needs to stop on both sides and we need to find the peace. My approach to wikipedia is largely based on damage limitation and I deplore these attacks on the project. Wikipedia having BLP problems is not an excuse to destroy it but we do need to make the needed changes to our BLP policy. Thanks, SqueakBox 22:42, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Part of the problem here is that those who don't know what happened are (or were) genuinely in the dark (and might genuinely be worried about what has happened, even though they shouldn't be). There should be a way, in order to prevent speculation, to quietly tell them, while not going into details, what the story is (for some people it will be a non-story, for others it will be an important principle - UninvitedCompany probably got closest to explaining things to people who don't know where to look). Those who know at least part of what happened realise that those who are trying to reduce or prevent any drama resulting from this, are not engaging in censorship (though we would do well to remember that different parts of the world have different sensitivities to what they perceive as censorship). The aim is simply trying to respect Newyorkbrad's wishes (as stated at the top of this page).
Although Newyorkbrad made a private choice to retire (something any of us should be free to do at any time with no drama - this is a volunteer project after all), it is natural for people to want to know what happened, and to ask questions of those who do know at least something more than what they themselves know. Faced with a lack of information, people speculate (that is human nature), or, if they are happy to take on trust what others say, decide not to push the matter.
I totally agree with Piotrus that a few short, brief statements, similar to the one Newyorkbrad posted above, may be the best way to contain things and allow people to stick to generalities and avoid the specifics. Stuff like this, however, is not helpful. For what it is worth, I think people are over-interpreting what Newyorkbrad said. What he said was: "I request that no explicit reference be made here or elsewhere to the incidents prompting my departure." It is quite clear that it is the specific (ie. explicit) details of the incidents that he does not want reported. That does not mean that he wanted all discussion, or general and non-specific discussion, of his departure suppressed or redirected here. But this is what has been happening. Ral and others initially removed posts about this at the Signpost tipline page. I then posted this to his talk page, and presumably Ral responded at the tipline page with this: "Clearly we are aware of the story by now. Please do not discuss the item any further here, per his wishes.", under the headline "NYB".
The point I am trying to make is that, although this is much better than talking to people through edit summaries, it is still excessively cryptic. Just a little bit more information would make people aware of what has happened, and still make the point about not discussing things in great detail. Something like: "The Signpost are aware that Newyorkbrad has retired. If you would like to leave him a message, please use his talk page. Please do not discuss the item any further here, per his wishes." Trying to avoid using his name is just silly. The bald fact of his departure is not something that can be avoided, and it can easily be reported as a private decision (which it is) without going into details, and equally the departure and the consequences can be discussed without going into details.
In my opinion, it is the explicit mentioning of the details that Newyorkbrad wanted us to avoid, and I strongly doubt the intention was ever for this request to be interpreted as avoiding general discussion ("should we have a policy on photos") and simple reporting ("an arbitrator has resigned"). The problem is how to stop the latter (general discussion and reporting) becoming the former (specific discussion). Please can those rushing to revert things consider that too much reverting may be unhelpful, and simply guiding people and discussions in the right direction (away from specifics and towards generalities) may be a better option. Carcharoth (talk) 23:35, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Very well put, Carcharoth. Brad has the right to privacy; per Wikipedia:Right to vanish and simple courtesy of others - although as I suggested it elsewhere, we should have a Wikipedia:Anonymity policy making that clear (currently it is a semi-forgotten essay). I fully support not revealing his identity in our discussions.
Everything else, however, should be discussed, and previous attempts to remove the discussions from AN/Signpost talk pages were nothing but censorship, NOT supported by any of our policies (seriously, this is pure and simple censorship), violating Wikipedia:TALK#Behavior_that_is_unacceptable "do not edit others' comments"). Again, instead of pointing fingers to anybody, I accept it was done under WP:IAR, and would highly support creation/expansion of an existing policy that would clarify what to do in the future similar situation (perhaps we could add something to to mentioned WP:TALK, exceptions allowing removal of comments, although I would strongly opposed sanctioning such censorship as demonstrated by diffs above).
Lastly, as I again have argued before, we should indeed have protection similar to WP:BLP for our editors, anonymous or not. Personally I have chosen long time ago to "preemptively" reveal all of my personal details; I have done nothing on Wiki that I am ashamed off and nobody can blackmail me by revealing anything. The lesson from this incident is, I believe, that believing in protection of anonymity is a folly, and will leave you open to blackmail (I have seen this happen in the past, and I know at least one editor who left after he was threatened that his real identity will be revealed). I understand there are cases when an editor will want to remain anonymous for good reasons (criticizing variously defined authority); but you should never feel that this is safe, and be aware of consequences. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:16, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Don't discuss what happened on wiki - but you can e-mail me
If anyone wants to know the basic information, which is not much and which is freely available on another website, then e-mail me and I will give you a prepared five sentence statement as to the basics of what happened - you can use the e-mail function by clicking on this line. Any request should be made with a statement that you promise to not discuss it on-wiki. I reserve the right to not respond to you without further comment. --David Shankbone 00:53, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The whole idea that anybody should be satisfied with a "prepared statement" without any public discussion permitted is so pre-Web-2.0... and even pre-Web-1.0... it's "Mid 20th Century Mass Media", the mindset The Cluetrain Manifesto fought against. *Dan T.* (talk) 12:27, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The idea that every single thing that happens to us has to be discussed in public should never have come to fruition. --David Shankbone 21:38, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The 10 Ways To Not Get Outed
The short unfortunate answer is the only way to stay totally on the "down low" here if you're concerned about it:
Don't use your real name.
Don't use a name that alludes to your real name.
Don't use a username you've used before.
If all your usernames all over are variants on something like "SeismicGuy", name yourself "Fluffy Nose" here, if you've never gone by Fluffy Nose before--it should be totally unrelated to you, and new.
Use a unique Gmail for your WP activities like Fluffynose@gmail.com. Never mail anyone from this Gmail except via the web-based interface, to conceal your IP address (Gmail does not forward a sender's IP address in the email headers).
Don't even enable mail if you're extra nervous--you can live without it.
Don't edit any articles related to your job, known activities, or known relationships.
Give out nothing about yourself on a personal level; keep the job "on-wiki".
Never meet anyone from Wikipedia in real life, over Skype, or anything else that gives them more than what they see "on-wiki".
Exclusively edit using proxy-based Internet access, or only edit from public locations/connections, to conceal your IP presence.
Thats the only way to totally, 100% stop outing. The more of these ten ideas you apply, the less likely it is to happen. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 23:05, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Good ideas. The last one is a little hard, though. Some of the more commonly-used proxies are banned, aren't they? Enigmamessage 23:17, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Didn't stop some longtime users from being creative in the past. I guess it depends on how private you need to be. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 23:21, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And there is wikipedia's secure server, as well. John Carter (talk) 23:24, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That just protects you from some network type stuff, people watching what you're doing when you connect from say the library or work. It doesn't give you any other privacy or keep your IP out of possible exposure. Good idea, but if someone is hunting you down THAT much to find out who you are on Wikipedia, you've got much bigger problems and probably need a permanent Wikibreak... Lawrence Cohen § t/e 23:31, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I thought I remembered seeing somewhere that edits from the secure server were listed under a separate, possibly unique, IP, which is why I mentioned it. I might be wrong, of course. John Carter (talk) 23:36, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If so, I bet they sure don't want it advertised that you can beat Checkuser with a secure login on Wikipedia. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 23:42, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Of course steps 6 and 10 will pretty well preclude you from becoming an Admin. Corvus cornixtalk 23:40, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
On #6, maybe? Not sure. On #10, not automatically? Clever people can set up something like that on a 1 to 1 basis with no one else using the proxy. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 23:42, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Only if a checkuser notices your use of proxies and decides to ask you a question about it. hbdragon88 (talk) 01:30, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think this way of teaching guidelines, an anonymity how-to, is the right way to deal with the problem. I'm surprised that the list doesn't mention the time and topic dimensions. You have a right to remain anonymous, but this is always a hide-and-seek game. You might be discovered and outed. Just like in cryptography, the more clues you give to your "enemies", the greater their chance to break your code. Seek to minimize your anonymous activity. Your need to stay anonymous might be limited to your contributions on a certain topic, or for a limited time. Perhaps you can sign up with your real name for most of your activities and use a separate sock puppet account for the times you need to be anonymous? You can go to meetups with your real name (after all, you will bring your real face), and not disclose your anonymous disguise. Consider if you really need to combine anonymity with adminship. Don't use your real name account and your disguise during the same hour, since that is a proven way to discover sock puppetry. --LA2 (talk) 00:53, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not true. Using two accounts at different times is often used as a reason that a single person is controlling two accounts. On the other hand, if both edit in the same hour, and only in the same hour, they may be sockpuppets as well. And determined people will extrapolate every piece of data to determine if accounts are linked or not (see Mantamoreland RFAR for the best case). So create a list of quirks that one account has that the other does not (use of edit summaries, different types of topics, RV vs. rvv vs. undo vs. rollback). The best way to throw them off is to wake up at 3 a.m. your time and edit with one account, and then edit with the other account at regular hours. hbdragon88 (talk) 01:33, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The single easiest way is to not edit controversial topics and to not be an admin. People are targeted based on the power that others perceive them to have. After all, it's Brandt's Hive Mind Administration. hbdragon88 (talk) 01:30, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In case anyone thinks that the above comment is an explicity reference to a certain incident, it's not. Hivemind only lists arbitrators, developers, large donators, administrators (current and former). If you're only an editor, and unless you do something extraordinary (I have no idea what that certain editor-only entry did), I'm pretty sure that you won't go on. hbdragon88 (talk) 01:43, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with the above. Instead of the ten rules above - which may be good for Chinese dissidents - I believe that for most editors, the following two are perfectly acceptable:
Use your real name
Don't edit anything that you wouldn't want others to find out about
Anonymity leaves you open to blackmail, and encourages behavior that one would not want to have associated with his real life persona (consider that 100% of trolls are anonymous...). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:35, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
While revealing your real name and everything about you precludes you from being blackmailed by certain people of ill repute (similar to revealing a scandal to the press instead of submitting to threats of disclosure), it's not that great of a strategy for many people. The bottom line is that most people, including myself, do not wish to be harassed in real life for their actions on the Internet. How would this help the administrators who were "outed" and are suffering real life harassment at this very minute? Enigmamessage 16:41, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
One way to never be in the position of being outed at Wikipedia
I think it is imperative to address the issue that is truly at hand here. Officers and directors and administrators of real live organizations around the world must be held accountable for their actions in the real world. Therefore, if someone does not want to be outed, they should not hold themselves up to be part of the said former group at Wikipedia or any entity that, in fact, has as part of it's cause, the explicit presentation of information about real, and in some cases, live people.
Officers of public corporations are seen as transparent and out in the open. That is the law and that is the way it should be at Wikipedia. That is the reason why NYB was put in the position he is in now. Peace. :)83.165.75.248 (talk) 01:37, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's the law because there is a fiduciary responsibility for officers and directors of publicly-traded organizations. None of that applies here. Please don't quote the law when you don't know it; it makes you look silly. --David Shankbone 21:56, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It is not the law and it is not how it should be at Wikipedia. Garion96(talk) 12:42, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the anon. I've always supported the idea that all admins, ArbCom members and all editors 'in the position of power and responsibility' should post their real name and credentials. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:37, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So they can be harrassed off-Wiki as soon as they make a decision someon doesn't like? No. This should never be a requirement. -- 68.156.149.62 (talk) 20:14, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that anyone in a position of power should be open and honest about who they are. I believe this whether it's on Wikipedia, in a job of work, a political position, or anything else. DuncanHill (talk) 20:40, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Define "power". --David Shankbone 21:56, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We have an article - Power (philosophy). In future, please try using the search box for general knowledge questions, or asking at the reference desks. DuncanHill (talk) 22:23, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So that article is how you define power? I'm simply supposed to assume that this covers your thoughts when you make broad sweeping generalizations that everyone on the planet who can influence the decisions of other people should be "open and honest" about who they are"? Is the phrase "open and honest" supposed to be obvious, like "fair and balanced"? If I start an anonymous fan blog dedicated to Angela Bassett and other Bassett fans like my blog and want to start posting too, is it then my responsibility, as the blog admin, to be "open and honest" about who I am? Should the anonymous authors of the Federalist papers, upon which American democracy is based, have not been anonymous even though they influenced the thoughts and decisions of many? If these things are so clear-cut to you, let's hear you actually expound upon the words whose definitions, ideas and philosophies are so obvious to you. Please, enlighten us Mr. Hill. --David Shankbone 22:42, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
On-line forum blog type thingy? Yes, whoever controls it should reveal their identity. Federalist Papers? A subject on which I am profoundly ignorant, but off the top of my head yes, you write any kind of manifesto, be honest about who you are. If you are, or seek to be, in a position of power, you should not hide from scrutiny. To expect trust without showing trust in those from whom you seek it is one of the worst of hypocrisies. DuncanHill (talk) 22:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But what if one doesn't expect trust? Then does the duty to be "open and honest" about "who you are" dissipate? If I approach a blog, secret society or website where I know the people are anonymous, do I not have any responsibility for my membership or what I glean from such a blog, society or website? Where is the reader or new member's responsibility? And what does "who you are" mean? Name? Location? Affiliations? Job? Employer? Likes and dislikes? Political organizations? Where do you draw the line with "who you are", Mr. Hill? I've been accused of being both a Republican (on the WR) and a Democrat (on WP). Is it my responsibility to fess up to my leanings? If I am editing the Abortion article, do I need to state my POV as part of "who you are"? Once I have any modicum of influence over another human, once I am no longer at the bottom of the barrel, please tell me what you expect of me to reveal. --David Shankbone 23:02, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I find the phrasing and the machine-gun delivery of your questions a little hard to follow. Perhaps you could limit them to just two per post? And by the way, many British people find being "mistered" mildly offensive, it's the sort of language a bum-bailiff uses. DuncanHill (talk) 23:20, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Really? I lived in London and I found the English saw it as a sign of respect. I suppose, Duncan, all this begs the question: why are you participating in a website that is completely antithetical to your value system, and is unlikely to ever change? --David Shankbone 23:52, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Piotrus, you are just plain wrong. David Shankbone, you are just plain right. End of story. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 21:59, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strict enforcement
I am not sure why should attempts to reveal privacy or identity of an editor, against his/her will, be at all a subject to questioning. I have recently been disturbed by absolute disregard to this fact at WP:AE, ArbCom and WP:ANI. Of course, it's unavoidable that someone will try to reveal the identity of the other, intimidating exists everywhere and Wikipedia is not an exclusion. But frankly, unless editor voluntarily provides his identity, saying he is XYZ in real life, then any other attempt is simply a harassment, period. If Wikipedia editor is editing a topic, it should be irrelevant who that person is in real life, because priority here is a topic rather than an author. Any attempt to even question this cannot be interpreted in way other than intimidation and thus must be dealt with strictly. Any editor found of attempting to do so should be restricted without any questioning of how the revealing/false association/harassment/privacy violation, etc. was done, but whether it was voluntary or forced upon a victim. Atabek (talk) 16:57, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I mostly agree with Atabek here. Everyone who outs anyone for any reason should be treated like SlimVirgin treated User:WordBomb. A full site ban, that is not undoable for any reason. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 22:27, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
When CC is revoked
A question about what to do when the original creator of a work plays musical chairs with their displayed license. I uploaded a photo from Flickr that was marked as CC-BY. At some later point, the author changed the displayed license on all her photos to (C).
Since the image has been previously released as CC-BY, then the reusability (and suitability for WP) of such an image cannot be affected. This would be the CC analogy to w:Revocation of GFDL.
The author has confirmed this and refuses to restore the displayed license. She admits she cannot affect my usage (in WP) -- but what about further usage? What can be done?
There is a proto-"template" suitable for this situation, see at [9].
In the future I would recommend uploading your Flickr images at Commons. They have a Flickr review system where a trusted reviewer checks and confirms the license, which makes it hard for the copyright holder to say that the image was never free. Alternatively you can use Flickr Upload Bot, which is a fantastic tool for Flickr uploads - once you use it, you'll never upload Flickr images manually again. Kellyhi! 04:58, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The CC FAQ says that CC licenses are irrevocable: you can stop distributing a work under the license, but you can't revoke the license to redistribute any copies someone else may already have obtained. However, I wouldn't be too sure about the extent to which that rule might stand up in court, particularly if the original author can make a convincing claim that they chose the original license by mistake or without fully understanding its legal implications (courts being generally loath to punish people for honest mistakes, especially when the mistake involves voluntarily giving something away). Besides, if they've genuinely had second thoughts about the license, and if all it'd cost us to respect their new choice would be the loss of one image, I'd say it would be just basic courtesy to do so.
The situation could be different if you'd e.g. spent considerable time and effort on creating a derivative work, which the new license would prevent you from distributing (in which case a court, if it were to come to that, might consider it a case of promissory estoppel), but if there hasn't been any significant investment in the work on our part, it would seem really impolite and unfair to just tell the original author "Sorry, you clicked the wrong button, we now have a license to your work and we're not gonna let you take it back, nyah nyah!" —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 05:24, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(IANAL) Someone over the age of majority, and in full capacity cannot in effect punish another person by claiming they made an honest mistake or that they didn't fully understand a legal contract implication. When all parties acted in good faith, the court can only find the irrevocable rights granted to be valid. Of course, legal rights and common courtesy and two different thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KTC (talk • contribs) 07:16, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's a wonder to me that Flickr, surely being aware of the issues of revocation, even technically enables authors to change the license on their page with no sign whatsoever of its previous license. As for courtesy, I agree that the positive relationship of Wikipedia with particular artists has a very real value to the project (particularly in the form of future contributions) — but in some cases the image in question is simply precious and irreplacable, such as a high-quality photo of a now-deceased person, where all other photos of the person reserve all rights. These two values must be weighed against one another. Dcoetzee 10:30, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The content creator freely admitted to me via email that the work (et al) was originally released under CC-BY, but because she is now looking at financial possibilities, she has changed the licenses on her images. I directed her to the CC license legal text as well as the CC "what if i change my mind" FAQ, she demurred and was short with me about it, insisting that she is within her rights and implying that her lawyer agrees. - Keith D. Tyler¶ 17:46, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
She is entirely within her rights to stop announcing that any of her work is or was declared to be CC-BY. Whether that has any actual impact on the rights of current and potential reusers is a more complicated question, though the goal of CC licenses is that the rights should continue in perpetuity. Dragons flight (talk) 18:10, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, she as the copyright holder, is entirely within her rights to change the license. What she can't do is to prevent anyone who obtained the images under the previous copyleft license to continue to make use of and redistribute it under the terms of said previous license. (IANAL and all that) KTC (talk) 18:25, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Animated images
Is there an existing policy or guideline regarding the use of animated images? I would like to propose (in the appropriate place) a new editorial guideline that animations should be enclosed within a collapsible box, so that if readers find the images distracting, they can hide the image. See, for example, the lead animation to Shallow water equations. silly rabbit (talk) 15:55, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Independent sources has been marked as a guideline
I've rolled it back to an essay, and provided a list of reasons why I think that it should stay that way. -- John Broughton(♫♫) 20:51, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Last summer the style for message boxes in articles were standardised and the meta-template {{ambox}} was implemented to allow easy creation of boxes in the standardised style.
Now we are going to standardise the style of message boxes in image space and category space. We have coded up some suggestions. See the new meta-templates {{imbox}} and {{cambox}} and discuss the style for them at their talk pages.
It has recently come to my attention that inherent notability is beginning to spread through Wikipedia. I feel that this is a bad move for the project, for a number of reasons.
We end up with lots of short articles. Inherent notability is often the line of defense used by articles with insufficient sources in order to avoid deletion. This leads to lots of 'cite' requests when users are bold in adding information. As the defence is inherent notability either we end up with unsourced statements or stubby articles. Neither is a good place for a reference source.
Increasing inherency will spread, from schools to other public places. Arguably, religious buildings are as much a cornerstone of a location as a school. Following this pattern, more objects would fall under inherency. This leads to the total avoidance of the notability, because soon everything falls under an inherency guideline. Obviously, this is a 'thin-end of the wedge' assumption, but it does need to be looked at. At some point, a line has to be drawn in cyberspace.
Aside from anything else, do the articles help people or give them necessary information. Wikipedia's goal is often stated to be 'to give everyone access to the sum total of human knowledge'. Now that's an idealistic statement and given a limited period, people don't have time to see the sum total. So my question is: Do these inherent articles serve a goal, beyond bulking Wikipedia.
So, after that, I think it would stupid of me not to suggest my solution:
Merge current short articles that are insufficiently sourced into a section in their geographical location. For inherent geographical locations simply move them 'up the chain' so to speak.
For people and the such-like, move them to the articles which relate to their issues - artists to the styles that they use and the such-like.
NB: For readability, I tried to think of examples. However, obviously, if I could think of them, chances are they would be notable and as such not be part of the inherent notability.
Obviously, once a section begun to expand, it could be moved into it's own article. IE if a Republican senator gained enough cited sources to be consider to be a significant portion of the page on Republic senators, they would be moved into a new page.
If you can't find examples, then I have to question whether it's really a problem. Finding examples should be easy; go to a category that's "inherently notable" and look at a few articles until you find one. I believe that "inherent notability" is fine in moderation. A US senator has enough cited sources to be notable; "inherent notability" is there to remind people not to toss the article up on AfD.--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:47, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy deletion of flicker images
Image:Tyrone Panel 2005.jpgImage:Tyroneandkerryflags.jpgImage talk:Semplestadium.jpg These images where where uploaded correctly and under good faith only to be changed by the "copyright holder" . I say "copyright holder" as i fail to see how someone can release an image as cc-by-2.0 for example and then claim all right reserved . Please stop the maddness Gnevin (talk) 23:46, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am not questioning whether or not you uploaded the image in good faith or not, it is obvious that you did. I have a FLickr account and understand people change their license on photos all the time. But if there is no proof that the image was licensed under said license, that we have to assume that the license that is accessible (i.e. the most current) is the license the image is and has always been under. If you can show me proof that the said image was under the license that you put on the image when it was uploaded, then I will gladly restore the image for you, but if there is no proof we must delete the image under our image policy. Sorry if I sounded rude, but the sarcastic tone in your first post kinda turned me off from being my usually cheery self. « Gonzo fan2007(talk ♦ contribs) @ 23:43, 1 May 2008 (UTC) [reply]
This was posted on my talk page by Gonzo (Gonzo i hope you don't mind the copy) . Now in my opinion the above makes fliker images useless for wiki and the copyright holder can change the tag on the image after years and make it unless on wiki Gnevin (talk) 23:51, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
![[9]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Behrakis_Health_Sciences_Center.jpg){kind=link}
